Mini 692: Boost Mafia (Game Over!)

[TDC]

vote: Raging Rabbit

Vote: eldarad

Sup?

My last two opening votes in games have landed on scum. Do you feel lucky?

I want proof for this before I mindlessly hop onto the wagon!

[TDC]

3) Mafia - if we boost them, they probably get things like investigation immunity or an extra night kill, or a NK that overrides doc/boosted NK immunity

So obviously, boosting Mafia is very bad and we should avoid doing it.

So to try to aid this, I'm going to put myself up for being boosted, and also claim-ish.
[..]
So that's my case, do what you want with it.

And how would we know whether or not you fall in category 3?

Do you feel that massclaim might be a viable strategy at this time?

No.

[TDC]

And, as Electra said, for a scum to make that leap of faith about the existence or otherwise of boostable vanilla townies, or whatever, is pause for thought.

That's a fair point.

Boost: Electra

.

I'm not sure why ILord and RR are talking about guilties and innocents, when Electra's claim clearly said she'll get "information about the town", which I'd guess would be things like "There's X scum in the town" or "there are Y vanillas". Nothing she said suggested it's a cop investigation.

Skillit's last post reads like back-pedaling from a fairly contrived attack on Electra.

unvote, vote: Skillit

And while I'm at it

Boost: eldarad

, I liked what he's said so far.

[TDC]

2. To explain my vote on TDC, I think his vote on skillit is scummy because he evokes the motive 'looks like backpedalling', but I don't see evidence to that.

Could you elaborate?
Which is it, do you think he wasn't attacking Electra in the first place, or do you think he's standing by his attack?

[TDC]

Oh and btw, Skillit has now reached L-2. I think sthar8, Electra, and to a lesser extent TDC should at least justify why they feel their votes are on the best wagon at this current time. [..] TDC touched on a more minor point about Skillit's backtracking but hasn't engaged in conversation with him or commented on whether he thinks Skillit really was joking around or not.

I read it as a real attack, yes.
He then posted a couple of things about the 4v3 issue, to finally come to the conclusion that it wasn't indicative of Electra's alignment anyway.
I found that - wait for it -

odd

. Anyway, that's what I meant with the backpedalling, why waltz the issue out like that if you don't think it's telling? I don't buy that it was an important theory issue whether mafia can have roles or not.

I agree it's not a particularly strong case, but the best I saw at the time. (And I still don't see a better one).

I assume that by mentioning the L-2 you're trying to say that this is dangerous or whatever, but I don't think that skillit is in immediate danger of being lynched right now.

--------

I may be wrong on this but my leaning is that Skillit's 'odd post' wasn't an attack - see him mentioning the joke at the end of the post; this is a judment call, mine.

If it was just your judgement, how can you call other people scummy for having a different judgement?

---------

sthar8: I'm wondering. Did you really think that a majority of people might be willing to go for an early Day 1 mass claim?
Seems to make little sense to suggest it (and imply you know more than most by doing so) without being sort of confident that it could actually happen.

---------

Maybe the right word is more guiltridden than panicky, it sounds to me like "damn, made a mistake. Guess I'll apologize it away". The way he appears to really kick himself for appearing suspicious stinks of guilt to me.

Do you think it's more damning that he answered in place of others, or how he excused it?
If it's the latter (and that seems to be the case), how would a response have looked like that's less suspicious?

[TDC]

I'm not scum; don't worry.

Oh cool. Will look elsewhere then. Everybody should be this easy to read!

Also, Electra is on "B-1". I think there's no harm in waiting a bit with the "hammer" until we have a better idea of who's going to be the lynch and who might be the second boost.

[TDC]

iLord is a distant third, due to a mechanics issue

A what?

[TDC]

I just had a crazy idea that I might know the reason why sthar8 wanted a mass claim.

And.. would it be a good idea if you're right?

[TDC]

Don't know about you, but I didn't really take much out of the Incognito/springlullaby exchange.

---

I don't really understand the Crazy case. Could anyone clue me in?

---

I'm not done here, I will be back in around 3 hrs, this is just what i had typed up before I got called to go to work for a short shift.

I'd like to read this.

----

Ah okay. My theory could be altered to allow for Electra, but that would result in quite the inelegant set-up.

I actually think my theory is closely related to yours except for the fact that may role would disprove yours.

I remember you saying you'll boost Electra later on. Has this changed, or do you think that we have "quite the inelegant set-up"/your theory is wrong?

[TDC]

I'm astonished that none of the four Crazy voters bothered to explain the case on him.


---

RR: I'm confused.. do you still think your point on sthar is strong?
How much of your iLord vote is based on the apparent contradiction, and how much on him not being the main propagator of the Incognito case? (I'm asking because I don't really see where you're going with the latter, iLord's position on the Incognito-springlullaby exchange has been quite clear)

[TDC]

You previously said you didn’t understand the case on Crazy and asked to be clued in. Did the lack of a response make you think about the legitimacy of the case?

I didn't understand it when I asked, so obviously this didn't change when nobody explained it.

What about the response you got after you asked again?

I share iLord's feelings towards Electra's case. I, too, see Crazy genuinely bored.

For me it was a mixture of buddying and lurking, I guess.
Also the assumption about Electra's "information" and the fact that SL completely ignored Crazy borrowing my opinion, but chewed Incog for doing it, which - at the time - suggested to me that there might be a SL-Crazy link.
I'm not convinced that is true anymore, but I am still a bit concerned about Crazy's lack of activity and her comparative lack of opinions...

Now, I think I've asked this before, but where did Crazy make any assumption about Electra's "information"? RR and iLord where the people talking about cop investigations.
The second reason seems to be a better reason to vote for springlullaby than for Crazy to me.

Also what do you think about the Crazy case now?

I still think it's pretty weak.
I'm not quite sure what to think about that, though. The wagon was on four votes for a pretty long time, yet none of the voters seemed really interested to push it any further.

[TDC]

Incognito: I have sifted through the two games of sl you mentioned (and a few more of her). I can see the parallel with R-1000, but I don't really see it with Nice Shot. The other games (town and scum) where fairly clean (and lurky) from her. I would have a better feeling about this meta read if there was more data (or if I understood where you think Nice Shot is comparable with this game, could you elaborate?)

---

Guardian: I know you aren't sl, but would you address this anyway? Seems odd she would replace out just when Incognito brought that up.

I am unsure what to make of Electra. Honestly I do think her post would be easy for scum to do, and if there are no vanilla roles like Electra claimed to have -- that is not a problem. It is in fact better -- no one is going to counter "vanilla who gets investigation benefits if boosted" if no such role exists. I am in fact a bit skeptical that any role has in it "you get X if boosted." My role does not, I can only speculate on what boosting does. I find it surprising that a role would explicitly state "if you get boosted X happens."

I get sick of repeating this all the time, but Electra never claimed to have "investigation benefits". I understand her claim as passive "the mod will give me some information" thing.
I also disagree that if Electra turns out to be the only claimed vanilla that knows what boosting her does, she would be in a better position.
In fact, if you look at the first page of this game, there's at least one post that suggests that she is not the only one.
I also think it's quite obvious that when Electra says "people with roles" she means people that can do something

without being boosted.

---

I think more people need to say if they think Incog was playing the agitator on SL.

No.

---

Do you think Guilt is indictive of scum?

No. I don't think RR probing sthar on it is that indicative either, though. (And as far as I can tell, that's all your case on him ever was, I don't get where you're getting at with the backing off thing.)

[TDC]

I didn't bring up the Nice Shot! to draw a comparison between her play here and her play there because I agree with what you say about her play seeming different there from her play here. If I wasn't clear, I referenced Nice Shot! purely for Battle Mage's comment about her since he claimed to have meta-experience with her.

I see, I had taken it as "BM correctly pinned her as scum because she was player like in R-1000".

As for her posting rate, I think her posting rate here better matched her posting rate in her scum games. She was posting here at a rate of about 1 post every 3 days, which, if you look at her past scum games seems about right for her. In her town games, she seems to post at least once per day excluding weekends where her posting does seem to decline regardless of her alignment.

Really? I don't see it.
Look at these three games:
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7452
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7687
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7729
She's been town in all three of them, and her posting pattern is pretty much 3 days of nothing, one day of multiple posts, etc.
Which is also the pattern in this game.
In fact, if you look at it a bit more closely, her scum games have a similar pattern, but sometimes the "gap" opens up to more than a week. (See the two scum games you linked for examples of this). So, if anything, her posting frequency would be a slight town tell.

I can't follow how you came to your conclusion. Which town game have you seen where she posted as regular as you claim?

[TDC]

EBWOP: player -> playing in the first sentence.

[TDC]

Oh, right, I didn't think of looking for her ongoings.
Her other game where she's already dead seems to support this, too: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9599

[TDC]

Re: her meta; I don't see it as appearing faked. If she does exaggerate annoyedness, and Incognito is trying to use that as a meta-argument against her/me, he or someone needs to demonstrate that she does that as scum and does not do it as town. It seemed real to me and she is town here, so I would be extremely surprised if such meta-evidence exists.

Have you looked into R-1000? It does looks similar. But as I said before, one game is not that much to construct a meta based on it.

Well in endgame she would not be, but if she is scum, and no other such roles exists, she benefits now because then no one is going to counter claim her now, and we will only figure it out much later, if we do figure it out at all. Meanwhile she gets boosted, gets whatever scum benefit she gets from being boosted, and makes up some BS "info" she got. If she is scum her claim certainly advantages her now.

What I was trying to say is, if every "vanilla" that exists in this game had no information on how boosting them works, page one would've not gone the way it has.
If there are vanillas that know what boosting does, chances are very good that Electra is town and one of them.

---

TDC: Do you have any opinions to share?

I think I'm already sharing my opinions. If you think I haven't commented on a specific topic, just ask.

Who do you think is scum?

Didn't like how skillit ran a really poor attack on Electra and then tried to make it look as if it never happened. (Which was, as you recall, my reason for voting him).
He subsequently disappeared literally in the midst of a post. I'm fine with my vote on him until I hear from his replacement.

I don't like how iLord is pushing the RR case relentlessly, because I don't really see the point in it.
RR attacked you for this debatable guilt thing and subsequently unvoted citing your massclaim reasoning. I can't follow how that's a case that merits pages upon pages of discussion.

Guardian's entry (trying to discredit Electra, continuing sl's tunnel vision on Incognito) doesn't manage to destroy the "springlullaby is more likely scum than Incognito" lean I got from metaing her.

As you can probably tell, none of this is really solid. I don't have a very strong idea of who's scum right now, but if I had to lynch someone right now, I'd be up for either of the three mentioned above.

I guess I could use a re-read, but I don't have the time for that at the moment.

What do you think about Crazy's following the town?

I don't know what you actually mean with this. I don't think this was ever part of your case.
Is it his skillit vote (the, at the time, largest wagon?).
He hasn't done anything in the last two weeks and is now being replaced.

Who do you think we should boost?

Unlike many others, I actually have two boost votes going.
I mean them.

If you have any specific questions about the Crazy case, I'd be glad to answer them

Not a question, but I'd advise you to meta him.

[TDC]

TDC, why does your read that SL is more likely scum than Incognito come from meta-ing her? You said in the same post that one game is not much to construct a meta from.

As in, if there were more games where this happened, I'd be pretty sure. As it is, I only have a lean.

TDC, why does my being more likely scum than Incognito make me your third choice of who to lynch? Do you think one of us must be scum? Are we about equal and he is fourth? Or why?

No, it is of course possible that both of you are town. I'm saying that if one of you is scum, I'd place my bet on you, rather than him.
That I'm comparing you two should not be much of a surprise, seeing that sl had not done much more than argue with Incognito, and considering that both of you claim to be pretty sure the other is scum.
Incognito is pretty much a null read for me.

Why is trying to discredit Electra suspicious?

Why would scum not have an interest to discredit her? (Assuming she is town, which, as I've explained, I think is very likely).

What makes you think I have SL-like tunnel vision?

I would've expected a replacement to take a deep breath and reconsider. Instead you're just continuing where she left off.

---

None of this is indicative of alignment, however. I can point you to several examples of his scum play, but Skillit has only once received a town PM to my knowledge. I'm eager to hear Mana_Ku's opinions on the game as well.

Do you happen to have a link to the one game where he's been town?

What do you think I will learn from a Crazy-meta? My time is limited and I'd like to focus the search if possible.

That he exhibits this kind of "apathy" independent of alignment.

As for his "following the crowd," Crazy's vote, his support of eldarad, support of Electra, and support of Incog over SL all tag along with the majority of opinions expressed before him. I think this is happening too often for coincidence.

I see. I guess I'll need to revisit the timing of those actions. (Because in themselves they are pretty similar to mine, so I guess your point here is the timing, right?)

[TDC]

TDC, did you mean this:

I want proof for this before I mindlessly hop onto the wagon!

Obviously not.

That's a fair point. Boost: Electra.

You could also say that scum would do this as they know town won't think scum would do this.

I assume your answer refers to the point I agreed with, which was:

And, as Electra said, for a scum to make that leap of faith about the existence or otherwise of boostable vanilla townies, or whatever, is pause for thought.

I don't really see what you're trying to say, to be honest.
Are you saying it's just as likely that scum would make up a whole role type ("boostable vanilla") that might not even exist, on day 1, without any pressure on them?

[TDC]

If me *being scummier* than Incog puts me in the top 3, then does it not follow that Incog is fourth, if you only have a "lean" that I am scummier that you needed to meta SL for?

The list was not a "top three". It was "the three" that I would consider lynching if I had to.
There is no fourth place.

Why mention me being scummier than Incog as justification for having me in the top three? Also, what do you find scummy about Incog that you needed to compare us for?

It wasn't meant as justification. Again, the conversation with Incognito was pretty much the only thing springlullaby did. So it makes sense to think about whether this was a scum-scum, scum-town, or town-town interaction.
Scum-scum seems very unlikely (unless there's more than one scum group).
Scum-town is possible. If it is, I'd bet on you over Incognito (which is why I compared you with him).
Town-town is possible, too. Though the dialogue got a bit too out of hand.

Unless you're trying to tell me that you think it's more likely scum-scum or town-town - what's wrong with comparing you two?

Why is trying to discredit Electra suspicious?

Why would scum not have an interest to discredit her? (Assuming she is town, which, as I've explained, I think is very likely).

What about my logic is wrong? I think it is not particularly obvious one way or the other if she is town (which, as I've explained, I think is very likely the correct stance). Why do you take it to be more likely that I am scum rather than a townie that disagrees?

I've already explained why I think it is very likely she's town, so I don't really see the point of doing it again.

Your sentence is a bit weirdly structured, do you mean to say that you think the correct stance is that she's town, or that it could go either way?
I assume the latter.
I don't see where you're thinking it could be "one way or the other".
Pretty much everything you've said about her sounds rather negative:

Honestly I do think her post would be easy for scum to do [..] Her post seems like it very well could be a scum gambit. Her play otherwise has not been exceptional. I don't see her as my number one scum target, but I definitely do not support boosting her.

I also caution against boosting electra for the reasons I've mentioned.

Electra: Claim could easily come from scum. No huge read either way. Misguided thoughts about voting and boosting.

Have I missed the post where you actually consider that what she says could be true?

What would you think if right now someone else claimed a similar (vanilla that knows what boosting him does) role, but with a different power?
Would that make you more inclined to believe her? Less?

I decided that making roughly the same arguments against a townie that weren't working for SL because for some reason (and please provide the reason, I'd like to understand what reasoning you think scum would have) I thought that was the best idea.
[..]
If I am town, the fact that I took up the same case as my predecessor should give it credence -- that is two independent town minds who reached the same conclusions about Incognito.

There, you answered your own question.

I also would argue that I have not focused exclusively on Incognito in a "tunnel vision" sense, where I ignore what is happening around me or ignore arguments to the contrary -- I have commented and though on other players.

Yes, you have commented on other things since then and I appreciate that.
At the time I said that, you had focused on just Incognito and the "Electra's claim can easily come from scum" thing.

Also, (everyone:) do you think it would be fair to describe Incog's play as primarily focusing on me? If so, what is different about me/Incognito that makes it OK for him to focus on me but not vice versa, as TDC's logic would imply?

Incognito had only one post (the one where he voted you) between your entry to the game and my assertion that you just continued where sl left off. Since then, I haven't seen him as tunneling.
If you mean the time before that, Incognito and sl where certainly interlocked. That in and of itself I don't see as much of a problem. That's the way an extensive dialogue works.
My problem with your entry (and you entered without the "burden" to respond to everything Incognito ever said, so it's not like you were forced into continuing that conversation) was that it amounted to "Hi, sl was absolutely right, Incognito is scum. Oh and Electra's claim could very well come from scum, too!".
It's just so convenient to continue accusing the guy that's pushing for your lynch and discredit someone who the town had pretty much concluded is probably town.
I recognize that you've moved onto other topics since then, and it lessens my suspicions of you.

but there seems to be a lack of clarity in TDC's mind about who he finds suspicious.

There is.

[TDC]

So, obviously, Incog and me are leaning town-scum. The point is what makes YOU lean town-scum. Do you find his arguments against SL/me convincing? It is up for you to evaluate what to make of me/Incog; the fact that both he and I currently think town/scum is most likely should not bias your reading of the situation.

Either both of you are horribly, horribly wrong or one of you is dead right (thought not particularly convincing) and the other is just trying to make it a two way game.
Just doesn't read like the former, to be honest. I certainly don't remember a town-town discussion ever being as heated. (Which probably has the reason that when both players are town, they both have an interest to keep it civilised.)

If someone claimed an investigation/game knowledge on boosting role, I would be less likely to believe her.

I understand that there are probably not going to be two identical roles. But why would you prefer believing the counterclaimer (who could, for all you know, just have copied Electra's role)?

If someone claimed a role that was vanilla but had a pretty obvious thing that should/would get improved upon boosting, I would be about the same likelihood of believing her. If someone claimed another role that explicitly stated the exact nature of what would happen if they were boosted, but it was no informational, I might be more likely to believe her.

I don't really understand the difference between these two. Can you clarifiy?

So the reason that hypothetical me-scum decided to pursue Incognito is because I though that (if) people thought I was town and thus would join me, they would find the argument more plausible because I am a second person who found it plausible?

Possibly, yes. You have already claimed that your case is more credible if you're town, for exactly that reason.
(You've done something similar with the "I'm always OMGUSy"-meta argument. I mean, meta is all fine, but bringing it up yourself leaves a bit of a bad taste.)

Anyway, before you brought that point up, I thought more along the lines of you trying to keep the "duel" between you two alive, because you thought you had a better chance surviving that than when you would've said "uh, look. No idea what sl did there. I'll just start over."

I mean my argument about Incog only shares a few of SL's points

Why would it be necessary for you to use the exact same reasoning as she did?
I mean, if you just copied everything verbatim, it would not really look like a second opinion, would it?
(And dropping weak points is nearly always a good idea, regardless of alignment, isn't it?)
The main point of your attack is pretty much the same though, right?
Dismissiveness, "passive aggression", etc.

I re-read a bit after I responded to you, and at least one of SL's points seems really dumb -- that Incog wasn't sure who was scum yet on page 4. So it isn't like we had the same arguments or that SL is this bastion of truth.

As far as I remember, this is the first time that you say that one of her arguments was bad. (I think you previously mentioned that she might've been OMGUSy).

[TDC]

Odd, I can remember a few such times... Why doesn't it read like the former? How would a case where two townies are horribly wrong and are very convinced they are right and are attacking each other read?

I'd think the chance that the replacee would notice that this was the case would be kind of high.

My general rule of thumb is if the time is short, always believe the counter-claimer. If time is medium, tend to believe the counterclaimer. If time is long, think about it objectively. Scum do not like to counterclaim and lock themselves into a role. Counterclaimers tend to be town.

Let's pretend the counterclaim came as part of a mass claim. (i.e. "not liking to lock themselves into a role" is irrelevant)

Like if someone was a vanilla but it says their job was a nurse, then if they get boosted it would be pretty obvious they would be a doctor.

And that would not change your mind about Electra. But if someone claimed that if boosted, he would be able to target someone and would probably help them in some way, though he doens't know how, that would make Electra's claim more believable for you.
Have I understood this?

IF I am town. That gives no ARGUMENT for me being town. If I am scum I don't care who the hell I mislynch, I just care about looking town. Why does me attacking Incog again make me look more town, or why would I think it would make me look more town?

That's not what I'm saying at all. We were talking about it making your case look stronger if you're town. So to everyone who thinks you're town (regardless whether they're right or not) it would matter.
And as scum you sure do care whether people buy your cases or not.

(You've done something similar with the "I'm always OMGUSy"-meta argument. I mean, meta is all fine, but bringing it up yourself leaves a bit of a bad taste.)

Didn't Incog bring that meta up??? Then I called it a supposed meta, since I am not sure it is true anymore?

You're right and I retract that statement. It was Incognito who brought that up in the first place.

Anyway, before you brought that point up, I thought more along the lines of you trying to keep the "duel" between you two alive, because you thought you had a better chance surviving that than when you would've said "uh, look. No idea what sl did there. I'll just start over."

I've done that as town and scum before very successfully; I don't see why I wouldn't have tried it here.

Oh I can certainly believe that you've done the latter as town and scum.
But how often have you done the former as town?

[TDC]

Your point is that if it is town-town then an unbiased replacee would realize this because he is unbiased.

If that is true I would think that the unbiased townies around would notice that this chance is high -- this argument goes in circles.

That's not what I was trying to say. You are not unbiased, you know your own alignment.
If you're town the question you face "Is Incognito scum?" is less complicated than the question unbiased onlookers face: "Is one of them scum? If so, who?"
You did not enter with the ballast of "I've discussed with this guy for 10 pages, he must be scum", so yes, I see a difference between you noticing this is the case, and someone else noticing it.
Is that delusional?

This is why I am asking for ***YOUR*** reasons and reactions, independent of mine.

I thought this was clear enough, but apparently not:
I can not pull up a specific post (or a couple of them) and say "look, here, this is why they can't be both town." If I could, I wouldn't need to rely on the meta lean to decide between you, because these posts would probably give me much more to decide on.
It's just a general impression I got from reading the thing.

My role is not like that, and to me the notion of such boost-hungry roles is weird.

Do you think Electra would've garnered as much support as she did if everybody had a role like you?

This line of thought only helps me IF people think I am town.

There are probably other ways to make people think you're town. I don't see why both things would need to be achieved with one action.

You are putting the chicken before the egg -- what I am asking about is how me continuing to pursue Incog is supposed to make me look town-like in the first place.

I have never claimed it would.

[TDC]

With a little over a week to go, I think it's time that someone finalizes the Electra boost, so that we can work on the second boost.
I'm currently boosting eldarad, but would switch to sthar8 or RR if necessary.

[TDC]

@TDC: In Post 386, why is a town-town relationship between SL/Guardian and Incognito unlikely because the conversation was intense?

Guardian has asked me the same question and I have answered it to the best of my ability in Post 400.

I don't think it's a scumtell though - it's one of the reasons I'm reading her as town.

Is scum more likely to scumhunt in your eyes, or what are you trying to say here?

[TDC]

I don't know when the new deadline will be, but we really should get the second boost done.

Current boost count (I added alternative boosts in italics):
TDC (2+

2

) <- Incognito, sthar8,

Raging Rabbit, Huntress

sthar8 (2+

2

) <- Guardian, iLord,

TDC, Incognito

Raging Rabbit (2+

2

) <- Jahudo, Mana_Ku,

TDC, Incognito

eldarad (1+

2

) <- TDC,

Incognito, Raging Rabbit

Guardian <- Raging Rabbit
Jahudo <- eldarad

Should be complete. More people need to say who they'd be willing to boost.

[TDC]

When a vote-wagon builds that quickly, usually there are scum on it. Should we assume that that does not apply to a boost wagon?

Vote wagons and boost wagons are fundamentally different in that a majority of vote wagon results are anti-town (lynching town), while a majority of boost wagon results are pro-town (boosting town), because there are more townies that scum - It's much harder to lynch scum, than it is to boost town. So I guess the analogue of a boost wagon of town (which we both think sthar is), would be a vote wagon on scum. With the motive for scum to jump on it being that they want to be part of it before it's too late.
Even then though, if you're not being part of "the scum lynch", there are (assuming 9 town 3 scum) only two other good vote wagons, whereas if you're not being part of "the town boost", there are 8 other good boost wagons. So basically, being on the wrong boost wagon is less wrong than being on the wrong lynch wagon, and hence there would be less incentive for scum to be "part of it"?
Also, a whopping 95% of possible wagons of size 7 have at least one scum on them (under the same assumptions), so this seems to be a moot argument anyway. (Fun fact: A wagon of size 3 already has about 60%)

--

I don't see the eldarad case, I still have him as likely town.

--

Green Crayons: Why do you lean scum on RR?

[TDC]

I don't see the eldarad case, I still have him as likely town.

What is your opinion of his reasons for his votes on Skillet and Crazy? I'd be interested to hear this from Jahudo too.

I agreed (and voted Skillit for the same thing) on the former, and disagreed on the latter (and said as much back then).

[TDC]

Okay, so only a few days to deadline, and we neet to get a full, 7 vote, lynch done.
Biggest wagon is eldarad with three, but I've already said I don't want to lynch him.
Of the two two vote wagons I prefer Huntress.

unvote vote Huntress

I would consider switching to back Green Crayons or changing to iLord, Jahudo or Guardian (in about that order) if they become viable lynches.

[TDC]

to back = back to

[TDC]

Of the two two vote wagons I prefer Huntress.

Why is that? Looking back through your posts I can't see any reason for this decision.

I'm still pretty neutral on Incognito. Crazy was null for me, but you've done a few things that bugged me. (Mostly, the whole post-boost discussion of Electra). That said, I think that your unwillingness to join what seems to be the only competing wagon to yours is a mild pro-town sign and I'd prefer a Jahudo lynch over a you-lynch, anyway.

unvote; vote: Jahudo

I'm willing to switch back if Jahudo turns out not be able to reach 7 votes in time.

[TDC]

Hmm. I wonder if the two kills mean we boosted scum. I think both electra and sthar should claim the benefits the boost had on them, especially electra who claimed to get some form of extra knowledge.

The two kills had different kill flavour, though. iLord was stabbed and Guardian was shot.

Just like yesterday, I'll

boost eldarad

.

I would think that players that are boosted at night (as per Huntress' claim) would be notified of this. If that's the case (

mod: Can you tell us?

), I think it would make sense if she claims who she boosted, so that we at least know that her claim is either true or that both she and the claimed boostee are lying.
Though I could see "booster" as a scum role, too, in which case finding out who she boosted will be of help, as well.

[TDC]

While Electra's information is not really testable right now, a mass claim without any plain vanillas would hurt her credibility a lot. (I am assuming that if what she says is true, vanillas that do not know about their boost are not boostable.. though that's just speculation).

Huntress.. I still think a booster role would be a good scum role (with two boosts per day already being in the town's hand) and her boosting of the dead guy is convenient. (And even a Tracker confriming that she did that would not help a lot since she could just have submitted the kill.)
Her being the competing wagon to Jahudo is a plus though.

Incognito killing Guardian makes sense. Not sure whether an SK makes sense in this kind of game.

--

sthar8: What was the second power you thought you might have? (And was the first actually the double vote, or did you think it was something different?).

--

Incognito: I would not put it beyond the mod to create functionally equivalent roles (vanilla with known boosts and power roles that only work upon being boosted) and call them differently.
Why would sthar8 not make his own life easier and claim to be "vanilla that gets a double vote when boosted"?

As for your claim, I understand you right that you claim to have started out as one-shot vig, and every boost gives you another shot? (With, according to Electra, a maximum of three shots in total). As much as I'm aware that you thought Guardian was scum.. Why use your one (and unless you're boosted it could very well be your only) shot night 1? I doubt you feared to be nightkilled.

--

Electra: How exactly does your boost work, do you need to be boosted again to receive new information, or do you now receive information every night?

--

Right. I'm calling the scumteam of Jahudo + Iceman + either sthar or eldarad, more likely sthar. I have lots of notes which I could try organizing into a proper case, but I'd like to hear everyoe's thoughts on that first.

I don't really remember anything about Iceman or his predecessors. Did he enter the picture via Jahudo's posts or on his (or his predecessors') own?

Also, I'm a bit unsure with my boost on TDC. Could you link us to some finished scum games of yours, TDC? Your play strikes me as similar to your town performance in Cop Central, but it's possible you play exactly like that as scum as well.

You can look them up in my wiki.

[TDC]

I fully intended to claim today no matter what in the hopes of getting boosted and possibly gaining another bullet so that I could shoot again Night 2.

Fair enough. I suppose you agree with your next shot (if any) being directed by the town?

--

@ TDC: What are your reasons for choosing to boost Eldarad?

His reaction to Electra's claim, mainly.

--

A scum booster makes complete sense as it is a power that is not useful to the mafia, but can be used to confirm the person who has that power.

How do you figure that a scum booster would not be useful to the mafia? Do you think a scum booster would be unable to boost fellow scum? Or that scum can't be boosted?

[TDC]

How do you figure that a scum booster would not be useful to the mafia? Do you think a scum booster would be unable to boost fellow scum? Or that scum can't be boosted?

I think the benefit of being confirmed by a townie would exceed the benefit of boosting a mafia teammate. I also think that boosting a mafia buddy would carry a rather large potential drawback of creating a link between them.
It may even be the case that Huntress-scum boosted her mafia buddy and claimed to have boosted iLord precisely because of this drawback.
I guess I also assumed that the town suffers when it boosts scum because it loses a power as much as because the scum gain a power.

The problem with this is that claiming to have boosted the dead guy does not confirm her at all.
If she actually is a scum booster, then her not boosting someone who'd live to tell is testament that boosting a buddy is more valuable than getting her ability confirmed (or rather that scum think this is the case).

--

Boost: Incognito

[TDC]

Speaking of Electra.. I think she could use a prod.
Still hasn't replied to my question whether she actually needs to be boosted again to receive new information or not.

[TDC]

I'm still waiting for responses/replacements actually.

[TDC]

Hi vollkan.
Do you need to get boosted again?

[TDC]

@TDC:

I'm not sure I understand your question. I haven't read anything suggesting I "need" to be boosted again...

I've already checked Electra's posts and I see that she has, quite rightly, made public the information that the N1 boost gave her, if that was what you meant.

My question is whether if you're not boosted again you will receive new information anyway.

[TDC]

Xtoxm: Any idea which two roles sthar8 thought he could be and why it motivated him to think a mass claim was a good idea D1?

[TDC]

I don't understand.

Sthar8 mentioned that his role was kind of vague and that he had two thoughts of what his role could actually be. He never shared what these two possibilites he saw were (and whether the double voter was one of them).
Hence, I'm asking whether you have an idea what he could've meant.

[TDC]

To an extent yes, but I don't know what he actually thought they were, but my guess is a good as his.

I thought the implied question was obvious, but anyway: What are these two roles he probably thought he could have? Is one of them the role you actually claim to have? Why do you think did all this make him think a day one mass claim was a good idea?

[TDC]

You already have claimed..

[TDC]

What for?

sthar8's claim does not look like a partial claim at all. It even says his roles is named "double voter".
And you "guess" it's a partial claim? You should know whether it is.

vote: Xtoxm

.

I demand a full role claim and answers to the questions you declined answering until you claim.

[TDC]

Got prodded.

Still want Xtoxm to claim.

I remember someone (RR?) claiming to have a case on iceman/his predecessors. Can we see that?

In other news, we need to get a boost vote done, it's just like.. one week and a bit to deadline.
Only 5 people have boost votes going, this needs to change.

vollkan: Are you aware of the deadline? It looks like if you were to progress through the game at a similar speed you've been doing this week, you'll not actually reach the end of it by then.

[TDC]

Hm.

When xtoxm claimed sthar's claim was "just the boost", it (for me, at least) clearly implied he had a power regardless of the boost, which contradicted sthar's "I'm a double voter" statement.
The thing with the two "qualities" fall in line with sthar's "I've narrowed it down to two things", but other than that, I still have doubts.
Xtoxm:
- You said that your boost pm indicated that the boost came from specifically one of your "charachter qualities", which leads you to believe boosting you again would provide you with whatever the other quality corresponds to. Sthar8 seemed to think different. He did claim "I'm a double voter", after all. There's nothing in his posts of today that suggests he followed the same train of thought as you. Any idea why?
- You come into the thread and are asked to claim. When presented with sthar's claim you say "that's just the boost". Not "one of the boosts", just "the boost".
I guess it is possible that with "the boost" you meant "the boost I received" and not "the boost (ability) I have", but all this "vigging me is stupid, because I'm a power role"-talk just doesn't fit together with you merely possibly having a second (mysterious) boost ability.

That said, I wouldn't have bought a real power claim from you and the contradiction between "He only claimed my boost" and "I have two different boosts" is much less severe than between "I'm a double voter" and "I'm also a power role". Also, I found sthar8 to be pretty pro-town D1..

unvote

--

RR: Where's your iceman case showing connections between his predecessors and Jahudo?

[TDC]

I see little reason to lynch iceman today as opposed to tomorrow.

However, iceman suggested in #916 that I was on the right track, but he also says in #1021 that he had forgot what role he had until he had been asked to claim...
So how could his role be affecting his posting rate prior to that?

This is an interesting point though.

--

iceman:
Why the fake self-hammer?
Does your PM contain anything about what happens (or could happen) when you get boosted?


--

I'm not sure why people keep commiting to "there's no contradiction" and "proven scum right there" on the Xtoxm issue.

Of course there is a contradiction (or rather, two of them).

1. Clearly sthar's claim implies completeness. (He gave himself a freaking role name, after all). So anything that adds to this (especially if it turns him from "a double voter" into "a double voter and XY") is a contradiction.
This can only be explained by sthar making stupid assumptions (like "trait A was turned into my boost, so trait B is now obsolete"). This requires a certain carelessness from sthar's side.

2. Xtoxm's "sthar only claimed the boost" clearly implies that something that is not "the boost" is missing. The obvious interpretation of this is something that's not a boost at all. The less obvious interpretation is that the words "of this night" are missing. This requires a certain carelessness regarding a) reading his predecessors claim (that, again, had a role name, so was obviously "complete" for anyone who read it and b) phrasing his own post.

I don't see how anyone can say there's no contradiction there. The question is whether it's careless scum or careless town. (No scum would intentionally counter-claim himself, right?).

I'd really like to hear why iceman and GC think he's "obviously town".

--

Xtoxm: Mind actually explaining why you think RR is scum?

--

Incognito: I don't see a conflict between a one-shot cop and a role that gets vague information about the setup. Why do you?

[TDC]

Because he's a bunny wabbit...

How convincing.

[TDC]

I'd really like to hear why iceman and GC think he's "obviously town".

Did I say that? (Honest question.) I remember Incog spouting off such strong rhetoric, and me saying something along the lines that Xtox didn't necessarily seem to be scum lying about their role. Though, I'll admit I was a super-strong supporter of sthar - he was more townish to me than his replacement.

Hm, the "obvious town" line actually came from Incognito and was based on meta.
Still, you've completely avoided talking about the problems with Xtoxm's claim.

--

You're such a tard...My PM says nothing about a boost either, and I also asked the mod, and got a pretty much exact same reply. You probably get another investigation on boost.

Your PM, however, supposedly implies that the characteristics get turned into an ability by way of boost.
I would think that iceman's PM would similarly imply that he could acquire more potions or whatever. Clearly, that thought never entered his mind.
I primarily asked to see whether he would take up the offer and claim to be boostable to potentially prolong his life.. which he didn't.

Instead you're taking it up for him?
(Or are you now claiming that the fact that boosting you gives you abilities related to your characteristics is NOT somewhat obvious from your role PM, which would contradict sthar's play yet another time?)

[TDC]

Forgot Incognito's post:

I'd think that kind of speculation would at least throw up a partial red flag from at least one of the three people who've shared this role (maybe some general leeriness about Electra's claim) but I see no sign of that. They all either didn't comment on it or really the purest reaction came from fuzzylightning who just seemed to lean town on her.

Well, yes and no.
If you see someone speculating that they might have your role, but you think they don't have your role*, then why make a fuss? (Especially if you think they're town, but I guess neither of them ever said anything like that.)

* I mean, she had claimed she would get "information about the town". How anyone could get the idea this could be a cop investigation is truly beyond me.

[TDC]

Your PM, however, supposedly implies that the characteristics get turned into an ability by way of boost.

Putting words in my mouth?

NO IT DOESN'T

It doesn't?

My role PM gave nonspecific qualities of my character, and implied that boosting me would amplify these charactersitics into a power.

The inductive step that people can be boosted isn't hard jump to make.

Yet, according to Electra's information, there

are

people who gain nothing at all by being boosted.

[TDC]

Eld looks town in general to me. Good boost target. Glancing through isolations I see no reason to chnage these opinions.

What changed?

Yeh, see sample PM.

How does that answer anything?

--

However, iceman suggested in #916 that I was on the right track, but he also says in #1021 that he had forgot what role he had until he had been asked to claim...
So how could his role be affecting his posting rate prior to that?

Uh, not my quote.

--


Still not interested in lynching eldarad.
iceman is not a bad lynch, but I don't see why it has to occur today?
Huntress I could live with, but I'd rather lynch Xtoxm.

vote: Xtoxm

Will switch to Huntress or iceman in that order otherwise.

[TDC]

Well, that's L-1.
Will check back in a few hours and hammer if necessary.

[TDC]

unvote, vote iceman

[TDC]

unvote, vote: iceman

if the colon matters :p

[TDC]

boost: Incognito
boost: eldarad

--

Incognito: Why so sure about Xtoxm? I don't get it.

--

Xtoxm: I might be missing something, but if you don't hammer with your double vote it doesn't tell us anything, because if you DID hammer, Incognito would just vig you over night. A town lynch does not immediately end the game at this point.

--

As for mass claim, assuming Incognito gets another shot, we're not quite in LyLo, more Ly/VigLo. Either way, mass claim probably is a good idea.

--

I'm thinking scum = RR + TDC (I seem to recall RR having some pretty strong support towards TDC whenever the two acknowledge one another, but I need to go back and reread)

Why is RR "supporting" me more significant than me "supporting" eld?

[TDC]

Have you NEVER played with anyone so often that the person could literally post the word "Hi!" and from that moment onward, you'd know if he was town or scum just from that one post? (I'm exaggerating a bit but you get the idea.)

No. But then, the biggest amount of games with the same person I have is.. two.
If Xtoxm is THAT easy to read, then it shouldn't be too hard to explain where he dropped his "Hi! I'm town!"-tell, so that someone who has never played with him before can understand it. Or is it really just a feeling?

[TDC]

An Xtoxm-scum, on the other hand, is very much an IIoA scum. He'll comment on anything and everything except for the game itself and will very rarely express his thoughts on the players. In this game, he's (very concisely as per usual) let us all know who he's suspicious of and who he thinks is town and so far, he's been accurate with his town choices at least (Huntress and icemanE were both town like he thought). Obviously you don't have to take any of my word for this: you can go through his games on your own if you'd like too. And if you're still doubtful about my ability to tell the difference, here's a vote that I made in a past Newbie Game on page 3 of that thread with a completely serious vote on what ended up being an Xtoxm-D1-lynched-scum. From what I've seen, I really don't think his (scum) playstyle has changed all that dramatically from that point to now.

He can't be that blatant every time as scum, can he? I mean.. with so many games under his belt and supposedly such a clear cut scum meta, you'd think he'd use it to his advantage when scum once in a while..

Xtoxm: Mind linking to your last two or three scum games?

TDC, Raging Rabbit has pretty clearly stated a number of times that he thinks you're town. What are your thoughts on him?

I'm not sure why you're introducing your question with that observation, it doesn't have any bearing on my judgement.
I think he's played a solid game so far.
I don't understand why/how he's so certain on Xtoxm, but I entirely agree with him that there are indeed contradictions between the claims.
Similarly I think his suspicion of iceman was valid, though I still don't get why letting him live another night to do his "investigation", or as it turns out, investigation, would've been a bad idea.
Other than that, I've never really thought him to be scummy.
That said, by process of elimination (you and to a lesser extent eldarad) there's only him, GC and Xtoxm left.

What do people think about Green Crayons's post 649?

The case itself is not that interesting. What is interesting though, is the timing. Guardian had just brought Jahudo to three votes versus Huntress' four.
This might well've been a last effort to save the godfather.
The promise of re-reading Jahudo to see whether he's a more worthy lynch never happened either.

What do people think about eldarad's post 890? I'll give my thoughts about it after you give me yours.

No idea why eldarad doesn't see a contradiction there. I think I've afterwards explained fairly well where it is. He's kind of tying himself to Xtoxm with that.
The notice of RR's town read on Electra supposedly having developed without taking her claim into account made a good question.

--

What happened to our mass claim? I suggest Incognito picks a claim order.

--

I'm nigh on certain TDC is scum.

See Incog? I said yesterday...It doesn't matter his alignment...He has to die.

Vote RR

I'm thinking on a TDC-GC pair now...
[..]

Unvote Vote GC

RR needs to be vigged.

Uh..?

[TDC]

Very funny.

[TDC]

Yes, would like to see that.
The two games you've linked are pretty much what Incognito promised.

Oh, and I don't need to change my meta because i've never been scum in a game with someone who's half decent at reading me

What about Incognito then? He knows your meta and lynched you in another game for it. Surely that qualifies as "half decent"?
If you're scum you certainly DID need to play to your town meta, because Incognito would've figured you out otherwise.

[TDC]

I'm vanilla, too.

[TDC]

Incognito: Do you have an explicit role name?

[TDC]

I also remember Huntress claiming "Booster" and not "Priest".

None of the other claims included boost descriptions this detailed either. (Nevermind the "double boost"-thing).

I could see the Mod including roles with or without names, but including just one role with a name? (Well I suppose Guardian might've had "Doctor", but we'll never know.)

[TDC]

I don't remember any boost wagon on me ever being near completion. Mind pointing out where I should've jumped in to prevent my boosting?

[TDC]

Here's an assingment for Incog, GC, eldarad and TDC - come a with a possible PM phrasing that's in any plausible for both sthar's and Xtoxm's claims.

Not sure what your point is here. I still think, that for Xtoxm to be town
1) sthar needs to have misinterpreted his role/boost.
2) Xtoxm needs to have omitted some words when he said "it was only the boost"

How a role PM (or rather, boost PM?) should look like that allows 1) I can't tell. But I don't think it's impossible to happen.
2) is not really related to the PM as such.

--

Boosting the lynch is probably a good idea, yes.


--

Xtoxm: Still waiting for you to show my alleged boost-whoring.

[TDC]

On second thought, I think we should boost one of the vanillas Today - it will be useful to confirm that our assumption about Electra's information (ie, some people are unaffected by boosting) does indeed apply to the vanilla townies.

To whom else should it apply? Mafia?

Oh, and we need to lynch one of the people who boosted Incog Today. This is non-negotiable.

Why are you phrasing this in such a convoluted way? The two people that haven't boosted him are Incognito himself (duh) and you.
So, really, what you're saying is that we need to lynch someone that isn't you.
Are you claiming that by not boosting Incognito, you've somehow confirmed yourself?

That said, I'm not objecting since I don't want to lynch you anyway (your reason for not doing it is beyond me, though).

I think the chance to find scum between GC and Xtoxm is much higher.

--

I'm going to be on vacation from Feb 20th to Mar 8th. I'll try to gain access as often as possible, but I can't promise.

[TDC]

To whom else should it apply? Mafia?

Maybe, or just the Godfather. Or maybe Huntress - who appears to have been a "pure" power role rather than a boostable one? I think we should check, since we have the opportunity.
For what its worth, I think Electra's info does indeed relate to vanillas - and it was one of the ways I believed Electra's info to be testable...I just didn't want to claim at that point.

Or Guardian.
What do we gain from confirming this, now that vollkan is already dead?
(And I'm not sure whether it would really by a confirmation, for all we know it only applies to

some

vanillas?)

From my point of view both scum must be on Incog's boostwagon (assuming Incog is town). Even if we mislynch, Incog can vig one of the boosters - and he'll have a choice between one townie and 2 scum.

I accept it's not as clear cut for you, but you can clear one of the boosters (yourself). So, do you think there are 2 scum boosting Incog Today?

I think you're probably town, hence yes. My point is that this doesn't follow from the fact that the other three have boosted Incog, while you have not, but from me seeing you as town in the first place. If this wasn't the case then, no, there might as well be only one scum among the boosters.
I understand that you exclude yourself from the list of possible scum.

See it this way, let's say everyone but me in this game was female and I would say "the final scums must be female". Of course it makes sense, since everyone but me is female, but it suggests a link (that they are scum because they are female) that just isn't there.

[TDC]

Or probably not Guardian, I think he explicitly wanted to get boosted, so he probably knew what boosting him would do.

[TDC]

TDC can easily quick vote and boost with the excuse that he'll be leaving on vacation pretty soon and doesn't want the day to linger on in his absence.

No, I couldn't. There was one boost vote missing.

It's because I'm too lazy to do work when it'll be your responsibility to kill the right person tonight.

If you're town, it's your responsibility just as much.

TDC has been an active lurker until today

How about you point out examples of where I was supposedly merely posting for the sake of posting without adding content?

his apathetic attitude towards being boosted makes it look like he was trying to not draw attention towards himself (if he's pure vanilla it would be optimal play/beneficial for the town for him to dissuade his boost) which is scummish and he's never undergone any serious scrutiny which makes whatever town vibes people get from him over embellished.

Same request as for Xtoxm (who never actually followed up on this): Show me one instant where I was actually in "danger" of being boosted.

From near the end of November to about mid-January is what I'm talking about in terms of TDC's posting frequency - he started out in a rush of posts and then dribbled off into lurker territory until pretty much the beginning of today.

I'm not the most frequent of posters, yes. Now show the "active" part.

Why would he have assumed his role could easily become the antithesis of his role? It doesn't make sense, even with Electra's information not known. The logical assumption with a vanilla role is to assume you're a vanilla role.

Which is exactly what I did. I figured I

might

get a bulletproof vest or somesuch, but in general terms, I figured boosting a power role was likely a better idea than boosting me.
Now again, show me where I should've jumped in and said "Don't boost me! I'm vanilla!"

So you're saying that by escaping any sort of heat he hasn't been able to slide by without suspicion, thus making whatever town vibes he has been giving off (

which I fail to see

) unduly legitimate and an false sense of certainty?

Oh, really?

--Super-Town--
Electra

--Strong Town--
sthar
TDC

So what did you see back then?

--

I can't really see an RR-Xtoxm pair (and I don't understand why eld thought this was likely, or even most likely). So that either means GC is scum or I'm wrong on eld. I'm willing to take that risk. GC's just squirming now.

If he is indeed scum, I'm not sure about his scum partner.
Unlike Incog he's defended Xtoxm without ever supplying any sort of reason, which implies Xtoxm (whose claim is still shady, but has the meta argument going for him).
I can see where Incognito comes from with eldarad bussing GC.. but I don't see him changing his mind about GC in light of GC's claim as much of a problem.
I don't remember RR interacting with GC, much less than with me, anyway. He's not done anything particularly scummy, the push on sthar at the beginning was a bit odd, but other than that..

Incog's not going to vig Xtoxm - I'd have a slight preference for him to vig RR over eld. That said, if GC is scum, Incog's vig is not make or break anyway.

If GC's town and we exclude the RR-Xtoxm scum team, eld would actually need to be scum, so in this case I'd agree with him being vigged.

[TDC]

*shrug* Everyone disappeared?

unboost, boost: GC
vote: GC

Definitely no access until Sunday.

[TDC]

Hey there, had no access all last week, but this week's place actually has wifi (though 5€/hour *ugh*). Will try to check in once a day.

I saved the recent pages and will read soon.

[TDC]

So you're saying that by escaping any sort of heat he hasn't been able to slide by without suspicion, thus making whatever town vibes he has been giving off (

which I fail to see

) unduly legitimate and an false sense of certainty?

Oh, really?

--Super-Town--
Electra

--Strong Town--
sthar
TDC

So what did you see back then?

This is still unanswered.

--

eldarad: I don't get your plan. Now that RR thinks GC is town (or does he?), do you think so, too? Because if you don't (and you did vote him previously, so you didn't), I don't see how it's a good idea to boost him at all. Worst case he gets a role block, we lynch town, he blocks Incognito and the game is over. Far too risky.

--

On the Xtoxm lynching: It's not possible unless either Incog or GC change their mind.
That said, if Xtoxm is scum, then I don't really see how he could EVER be lynched, because even if we lynch his partner today, he can just let Incog live and win like that..

--

Xtoxm: Is your wish to have me vigged unconditional of GC's alignment?

--

Xtox has had shitty quarrels with RR, myself and Eld. Like, very-obviously-not-the-same-scum-group conversations.

Mind to point out your "shitty quarrel" with him?

If Xtox flips scum, his only partner would be TDC.

Even if this was actually true, how can Xtoxm flip scum if he's not going to get lynched? I don't see you voting for him. (Nevermind that you've said you think he's town..)

Your reasons for voting me are getting more contrived by the minute (you've just added me being the only possible scum partner of someone you think is town), and you keep stalling on detailing your previous "reasons" (We still haven't seen where I was "active lurking", "not doing anything against a boost wagon" or how you put me into the "strong town" category but now claim to never have seen anything pro-town about me).

--

I doubt my vote will change today.

[TDC]

This is getting ridiculous.

First ("Why is TDC suspicious for acting in such a manner that would promote boosting a townie early in the game but Eld not suspicious for acting in such a manner that would promote boosting a townie later in the game?"):

The question is false to begin with (and that's not Incognito's fault because he never posed it like that, it's your fault because you've just changed it at your will from "not doing anything against his boost wagon" to "promote boosting a townie"):
I never "promoted" boosting a vanilla, let alone myself.

So you've just changed a point that made no sense ("he's suspicious for not doing anything against his (unsuccessful) boost wagon") into one that is factually incorrect.

[TDC]

Oh, and GC: What exactly has Xtoxm done "since the beginning of this day" that made you turn around on him?

[TDC]

Incognito: If we lynch Xtoxm and he's town as you say, will you vig GC?

[TDC]

TDC, why do you want to know that?

I understand RR's point that if we're ever going to lynch Xtoxm it has to happen today.
But I think GC is more likely scum. So unless you're going to vig GC, I'd rather lynch him and not Xtoxm.

What in particular made you prefer a Jahudo lynch over a Huntress lynch?

I wasn't too fond of a Huntress lynch to begin with (hence her not making the "short list").
I figure that had I had an overwhelmingly good reason for lynching Jahudo, I would've posted it back then. He just felt spectatory ("Hey A, what do you think about B's argument that C has done X").

...where you listed him as your number 3 suspect.

Yes. What's your point there?

[TDC]

TDC, I don't think I'll really, truly know who I'm going to vig until tonight comes, and I have one additional alignment (from today's lynch) to look at.

Well yes, but if we lynch Xtoxm and he's town, there's nothing new for you in there.

At the time, she was a wagon and so was eldarad. I understand that at the time, you made your thoughts clear that you wouldn't support an eldarad lynch but both wagons had very little votes anyway and, as you could see, it wasn't very difficult to get a brand new wagon off the ground.

I certainly didn't feel like

I

could get a wagon on either of those four started in time. (I think a few days were left). Some had been squabbling with Jahudo for a while, but nobody bothered voting (or maybe he had one vote at the time? I'd need to check back, or maybe you remember), which left me with the impression that there wasn't that much interest in actually lynching him. The other three on the list seemed outright impossible to lynch.
A Huntress lynch was better than a no-lynch or an eldarad-lynch.

Why didn't you mention this at the time? This was the case iLord and I pushed, and I've looked through your posts and couldn't find any point where you actually agreed with the case. He just seemed to "magically" appear on your "short list".

As for my point about you listing him as your number 3, it just seemed to happen out of nowhere. Again, I just don't see any point where you say something like "yeah, I agree with Incog and iLord about Jahudo". He just seemed to appear on your suspect list.

Again, I can't quite remember what I thought in that moment three months ago, but I figure that had I sat there and thought "Oh, this case against Jahudo is brilliant and I agree with it" I would've posted just that and put him on top of my list (and maybe even voted him right away).
Clearly, I didn't.
Judging by the shortness of the post in question, I just wanted to get my preferences out there, so that we could come to a solution in time. (You will probably remember that I did that whenever we were nearing a deadline and needed to lynch/boost.)

[TDC]

We need to boost someone first.

Boost Count
Green Crayons (3) <- Incognito, TDC, Xtoxm
Eldarad <- Green Crayons
TDC <- Raging Rabbit

I will under no circumstances boost GC while lynching Xtoxm.

[TDC]

I'd also like to hear from eldarad (there's a couple of questions lying around for him) and Incognito (about the what-if-Xtoxm-is-town issue).

[TDC]

*shrug* I can't force you to.
It's just that I really can't imagine them BOTH being town (and hence, the scum team being RR+eld).
So, them both dying this day-night cycle would ensure there is another day (or we win the game right away).

[TDC]

I would hardly call GC "keen on an Xtoxm lynch".

[TDC]

Xtoxm looks like a clueless townie

(This is the first post he mentions Xtoxm).

For the record, I still think sthar's pro-town vibe is still helping make up for bad Xtox play (such as post 1180)... which makes Xtox's play just bad, not really scum.

I'm thinking scum = RR + TDC

Full support until here.

The scum want town to think I have killed Incog, cos he's the only one calling me town.
Reading this made me think of mathcam's strategy (as scum) in Minvitational 9:

In any case, the way I implemented this was, at least at the start, to kill the scummmiest player still alive. Later this morphed into maintaining what I would later postulate were scum's motives -- leaving alive only one natural target to be lynched. By the time this "natural target" came around to be me, I hoped to be able to argue that this was scum's likely plan, and to urge people not to fall into their trap.

Not saying this is the case, but by putting yourself in an bad position, then highlighting the poor position you have placed yourself as a mafia tactic to frame you is exactly the strategy ScumCam attempted to utilize in the minvitational. Reading your above quote instantly made me think of Mathcam.

Slight doubts, but he's "not saying this is the case".

[Incogntito's] constant contention that Xtox's bad play is just Xtox being town (which is, I think, as how your defense of Xtox has summed up) is what is keeping me from rethinking my evaluation of sthar.

Taking Incog's word for Xtoxm being town (so it can't be pinned to him if Xtoxm comes up scum?)

Then comes GC's claim and the surrounding discussion.

I'm not joking. I find your [Xtoxm's] play to be incredibly self destructive and exceptionally unhelpful to any town. You're not supposed to make it incredibly difficult for fellow townies to not want to lynch you because you reek of anti-town behavior.

This might actually be a slip if Xtoxm is town. Otherwise he's still not calling Xtoxm scummy.

Furthermore, as denoted in the above quote, I note that a RR/Xtox scum pair is exceptionally unlikely because of their interaction with one another. That means that a RR/TDC or a Xtox/TDC pairing are the only likely scenarios in terms of a scum team. Since TDC is the common factor of these two scenarios, he's the obvlynch from my vantage point.

First time he considers Xtoxm.

Then he brings on his crap case against me and explains how nobody but me could possibly be Xtoxm's scum partner.

You'll see how my support for sthar slowly evolved into a strong suspicion against Xtox.

lol.

Xtox: Thanks again for misrepresenting how something happened... really helping out your "obvtown" agenda. My suspicions for you didn't occur over night. Great to boil things down to an incorrect tag line, though!

No.. they occured during the day. Or rather I can't find where they occured at all.
He just started bringing up the idea of a Xtoxm-TDC scum team (where previously it was just RR-TDC) out of nothing.

[TDC]

The process of elimination is exactly the point where you first denote that Xtoxm could be scum.
Xtoxm, someone who you'd declared "stupid town" right until there.

Why did you not eliminate him in your process of elimination?

[TDC]

Besides, this "You're not supposed to make it incredibly difficult for fellow townies to not want to lynch you because you reek of anti-town behavior." makes me doubt Xtoxm is his partner.

[TDC]

That doesn't answer why you didn't consider that possibility earlier (and what happened to your RR suspicion for that matter).

I'm talking with everyone who is not you, about you.

[TDC]

TDC, I can't see your question(s) to me. Is this it?

Yes.

2. RR-scum is mutually exclusive of GC-scum, as the only way RR can be scum is if he is Xtoxm's scumbuddy.

How so? I think RR-Xtoxm is very unlikely. Why can RR not possibly be scum without Xtoxm?

3. GC could be scum, and my initial reaction to his claim was that he was definitely scum. I have reconsidered my position somewhat - I'm basically happier with the claim than I was. I also see a massive upside of boosting GC if he is town - see post 1339.
[..]
If GC's claim is genuine then we get a pseudo-cop investigation that forces the scum's hand, whereas we have no idea whether GC-scum would get a RB, or even if it will matter (it won't if Incog targets a townie with his vig-kill), so I reckon the risk/reward works in our favour just fine.

If Xtoxm is town (and that's the case that is really interesting because then we NEED the vig-kill), Incognito has a 50% chance of hitting scum. That's pretty good if you ask me and I'm certainly not going to just throw it away.

With two scum left GC's supposed ability would only be half accurate (it could've been the other scum), plus for the result to be usable you would need both Incognito and the scum to neither hit GC nor GC's (necessarily secret) target.

So if we lynch Xtoxm and are wrong, boosting GC is much higher risk than reward.

If Xtoxm is scum, then whatever, there will be another day anyway. I can see where you're coming from in that case. I'm just not convinced enough of Xtoxm being scum that I'd like to possibly bind the outcome of the game on his flip alone, when there's other possibilities.

[TDC]

Why the unboost?

[TDC]

I've already said how I'm not going to hammer Xtoxm if GC gets boosted.

[TDC]

Hm, yes it would.
I'm fairly confident Incognito is going to vig GC (which I think is a good choice regardless of Xtoxm's alignment).

I'll not be around at deadline, so I'll just switch now and you can finalize it with your boost vote..

unboost, unvote, boost Xtoxm, vote Xtoxm

[TDC]

I'm leaning RR.

[TDC]

I'm not sure what you mean by "TDC's case on Raging Rabbit", because I've never actually posted one.
Or was that the request that I should do so?

[TDC]

I do remember their being a case on him, though it wasn't very convincing. Could've been Huntress?

[TDC]

EBWOP: there.

[TDC]

I don't recall anyone ever having a decent case on me. I think despite being wrong on both "obvscum" (Ice and xtoxm - the lesson here is that I really need to adjust my scum detector to better tell the difference between scum play and generally bad play), my towniness is rather apparant here. Obviously TDC doesn't see it as such, so it could just be me knowing my own meta, or him being scum, but there you go.

Why do you not include your declaration that GC is town in this list?
I don't see much wrong with suspecting Ice or Xtoxm (though as I've said multiple times, I have no idea how you were so sure about Xtoxm, but anyway).
What I really don't understand is how you came to the conclusion that GC must be town.

And we might as well get it out in the open now as someone is going to have to think about it sooner or later: do you think my push to boost GC Yesterday was me trying to boost my scumbuddy or am I just a misguided townie?
Does GC's actual role (Encryptor) alter or influence your opinion?

Yes, this the only thing that really bugs me about you.
I don't know what an Encryptor does either, but I assume it's not going to be a role blocker or somesuch.
Either way, had we boosted GC, it wouldn't have made sense for Incog to vig him, so he probably would've vigged someone else. I assume it would've been either me or you, since he thought RR to be town.
So that's a chance of losing the game right there, though I presume it would've been you.

[TDC]

I assume that question is directed to RR, since I've already answered unter the assumption that the Encryptor would not be game-deciding.

So you think my fear that GC could be a RB (or rather a RB-on-boost) was unwarranted?

And you think that Incog would've vigged GC regardless?

[TDC]

I assume that question is directed to RR, since I've already answered unter the assumption that the Encryptor would not be game-deciding.

I still think it would be worthwhile for you to answer, even if only to confirm that GC's role doesn't change your opinion.
I think that the fact GC's role would have been *useless* when boosted Yesterday is somewhat different to "not game-deciding." Do you not think so?

I can't really think of a boost that would not be game-deciding but still useful.
What I meant was that I see that the motive of boosting him to win the game via the boost power is not there, but I still see the possible motive of protecting him from being vigged. (see below)

And you think that Incog would've vigged GC regardless?

I don't understand this question?

You wanted to boost GC to test the claim. That only makes sense if he actually survives the night. Hence Incognito would've needed to vig someone else.

[TDC]

Or rather you wanted to boost him so that, if he was pro-town, his ability could help the town.
That, too, only makes sense if he survives the night.

[TDC]

Just posting to say I'm here.
TDC, the answer to your question is fairly easy but I'll wait until I have more time and include it in a bigger post

This coming?

[TDC]

You're still missing the point.
How would we have reached today?
a) Incognito vigging GC regardless (making the whole thing POINTLESS)
b) Incognito taking a bigger risk

[TDC]

Do you now see why GC being Encryptor is only half-way towards making your plan look less bad?

[TDC]

I mean, no matter how you spin it, a plan that implies scum-GC surviving the day-night-cycle is a plan with a very real chance for the game ending that night.

[TDC]

You said this:

And knowing that boosting GC wouldn't have helped the scum puts a different light on TDC's total opposition to boosting GC - it's an easy way for TDC-scum to gain townie points with no downside as far as scum are concerned.

Do you still think going along with your plan would not have had an upside for scum, when we just agreed that Incognito would've needed to vig the other scum for the game to even continue?
Whom would he have chosen, you or me?

[TDC]

I mean, no matter how you spin it, a plan that implies scum-GC surviving the day-night-cycle is a plan with a very real chance for the game ending that night.

I'm not arguing that I was right about GC - I clearly wasn't.
But between the lynch and the vig-kill, we needed to be right once. If we had got GC's scumbuddy in either, then GC would be alive Today and would have to be scum. That's no better or worse than the situation we were actually faced with.[

I can't speculate on who Incog might have vigged. Even if you think you know, I don't think you do.

I'm pretty certain it would not've been RR. So no it's definitly not the same situation.

Anyway, at the moment I am thinking that TDC is the last scum.

How so?
I mean other than that I made the right call on a plan that would've resulted in insta-loss if RR is scum.

[TDC]

I guess eld could use a prod, too.

[TDC]

*shrug*
I figured you could reply to my previous post anyway.

[TDC]

"As thoroughly as possible" is not going to be that thorough.

Whoever of you is scum has played a very good game as I can't really mount a substantial case.

If eldarad is it, he's fooled me the whole game. Up until yesterday's GC-boost-plan he's not done anything I remember being worth mentioning as scummy. He's also been subject to several crap cases, though I realize these came from what we now know to have been townies, so they bear less weight than earlier on.
While I've never seen you as towny as him, you were still pretty high up in my list of likely townies. I've never wanted to lynch you.

That said, one of you has to be scum and not only would eld being scum be more outragious than you being scum, but yesterday's events also make this seem more likely.

With eld, I can at least see where he's coming from with his plan, though I disagree with his risk-analysis. In particular, the worst case scenario for his plan would've been you being scum (and hence him being town) - and while that's pretty bad and I maintain too risky, it's not as scummy as if the worst case was himself being scum.
How you came to the conclusion that GC is town, however, is beyond me. Considering that Incog was not going to vig you, preventing the GC lynch and convincing Incog of GC's "towniness" seems to be a good recipe for a RR-scum-win.

As for questions you've missed: If you can, elaborate on why you thought GC was town.

[TDC]

Being right about who is scum and who is town doesn't clear you by any stretch of the imagination.

I didn't claim it would.

I was asking you whether it is the only thing you hold against me.

[TDC]

eld:

I was asking you whether it is the only thing you hold against me.

One substantial thing I could say is that I never really tried to flat out defend GC or make a case in his defense, I just mentioned my own gut feeling towards him, which was very unlikely to convince incog - therefore the benefit I as scum would gain from intentionally defending my buddy like that is pretty slim.

Looking back, your stance was not as vehement as I remembered it. You made it abundantly clear that you'd prefer eld to be vigged over GC, though.

[TDC]

I was asking you whether it is the only thing you hold against me.

At the moment the first thing weighing against you is your presence on the early Skillet wagon at a point where I believe at least one of the wagoners is scum.

*shrug*

The second thing weighing against you is how you've skated through the game without being either very active or inactive, or getting into a big argument with anyone at any point.

I've had a longer argument with Guardian, but other than that, this about sums up how I always play.

This contrasts sharply with the sudden massive increase in activity Today relative to the other Days.

I wasn't active yesterday?
Besides, what do you expect. That I lurk through the final day like RR?

The third thing weighing against you is how you took a stand against a GC boost at a time when a hypothetical scum bussing GC would have been able to do so at no cost to the scumteam.

I think I've explained thoroughly enough how it was a reasonable stance.
That it might've been a reasonable stance for scum as well doesn't take away from that. (Besides, the only person arguing for it was you, it's not as if I was fighting against windmills to jump out with an "I told you so" on the next day..)

but I do notice that you never followed up that boost or argued in favour of boosting me other than placing your boost-vote itself. Which makes we question your motives slightly.

People often seemed rather suspicious of you, and I think I made clear often enough that I didn't see the point in those cases.

[TDC]

So it doesn't make a lot of sense for you to kill Incog, even though he would be a confirmed innocent.

Of course it does.
Of the three of us, anybody could be lynched.
Incognito was never ever going to be lynched.

[TDC]

I didn't intend to imply you were doing it on purpose.
I was just asking whether eld would prefer if I did it, too.

[TDC]

For what it's worth:
My post counts, by game day:
Day 1: 29 Duration: ~two months PPD: ~0.5
Day 2: 24 Duration: ~one and a half month PPD: ~0.5
Day 3: 33 Duration: ~one month PPD: ~1.1
Day 4 so far: 22 Duration: ~one month PPD: ~0.7

So there is no "massive increase" today at all, actually.

[TDC]

I am surprised.

vote: eldarad

I can't really bring a case on eldarad, so it's all up to you, RR.

If you have any questions, go ahead.

[TDC]

It just makes me think that it is because this is the first time that your life depended on it.

vote TDC

It is. I kind of like to win once in a while. (I think I'm on a 5 or 6 loss streak).

[TDC]

I mean really, that is what supposedly swung you around to voting me?

That I want to survive in endgame?

[TDC]

I'm pointing out that my will to survive is a rather crappy argument for me being scum.

What has that to do with me knowing he's scum?

[TDC]

I can see from a dictionary that supposedly can have two meanings.
I obviously meant the "alledgedly" meaning and not the "supposed" meaning.

[TDC]

And when I say "not the "supposed"" I mean "not the "putative"", which is a word I've never heard.

[TDC]

RR: If you were aiming to the fact that I pose him questions at all, you will remember that I did the same thing with Zeek in Cop Central.

My point isn't that you want to survive, it is that your motivation for posting is your own survival.

My own survival = I win. Should be pretty obvious, really.

It suggests that on previous Days scumhunting wasn't sufficient motive for you to post frequently.

The difference in frequency is not there. It just appears to be more posts by me because there are now less players and people actually respond fast enough for me to see their answers in the same session.
You've never accused me of not scumhunting the entire game, so coming up with it now is rather disingenuous.

Also, I listed three (and a half) reasons why I thought you were scum.

Oh right, there was one thing even

more

important, my presence on the early skillet wagon. How could I forget.

[TDC]

If you're town, your survival=win only starting now. That wasn't so at the start of today.

Uh. Yes it was. If I die today, I lose.

Here's a question for you, TDC - why do you think eld, as scum, would choose to vote for you over me despite me looking more likely to vote for him than for you at the start of today and you strongly expressing a lean towards me?

I don't think you looked more likely to vote him than me when he placed his vote.
At the beginning of the day, yes. But one hour ago?
My lean wasn't that strong either.
And then there's WIFOM.

[TDC]

Just click on that little wiki link.

[TDC]

Uh. Yes it was. If I die today, I lose.

Yes, but you also had to figure out which one of us is the scum.

Which I rather failed at.

So why not attack me from the start of today?

Might've looked OMGUSy? I don't know, really.

[TDC]

1. I'd like you to list the best reasons you can think of for you as scum to switch from Huntress to Jahudo at the timing in which you did.

That's an odd question. How I am supposed to answer that?
I don't think there's a really good reason for scum-me to lynch the Godfather on D1, when I could just as easily have stayed on Huntress, especially given my less than frequent posting. I don't think the Jahudo-lynch looked inevitable at that point either.
I mean that's why scum lynch their buddies usually, no? Because it's going to happen anyway and they want to look good while doing it.

2. How would you describe the difference between your town play and your scum play?

I've never meta'd myself (and I think nobody else has ever done it either), so I can't really tell.
I would guess multi-post sprees come more often from me as town. I would also guess that I'm more on the fence as scum.

3. Why do you think you never got NK'd? Not just last night, generally. You seemed an ideal N1 target,

You think I looked most-town and/or likely to have a power role on N1?
People seemed to disagree, seeing how I wasn't boosted. That said neither sthar nor Electra were killed either.
I assume iLord had to die because he was one of the driving forces of the Jahudo lynch (unlike me, for example). He was also rather suspicious of eld, if you remember.


N2's kill of vollkan seems rather obvious as does N3's kill of Incognito.

I'm not all that surprised I wasn't nightkilled.

TDC, given your vanilla claim, how do you explain this?

While Electra's information is not really testable right now, a mass claim without any plain vanillas would hurt her credibility a lot. (I am assuming that if what she says is true, vanillas that do not know about their boost are not boostable.. though that's just speculation).

What do you mean?
Do you expect me to post "Electra tells the truth, I'm vanilla!" or what?
I attempted to show how her claim was more believable, since a mass claim could easily disprove her, if she was wrong. Which would be a rather risky move if she was scum.
What would you propose should I have posted to convey that without telling the scum where NOT to look for power roles?

[TDC]

Some people were suspicious of her because her information was "not confirmable" and worrying scum-Electra could cruise through the remainder of the game.

[TDC]

To show that she would, in fact, not be able to survive a mass claim if she was lying.

I don't see how me knowing that a mass claim would support her claim should prevent me from using that hypothetical.

Again, how else should I've gone about pointing out that if she was lying scum, a mass claim would do her in?

[TDC]

Did you really think that just because she "knew" there were vanillas in the setup and implied they'd get no benefit from a boost, she's more likely to be town?

No, I thought she was town anyway.

The existence of vanillas is extremely plausible.

Yes. The existance of vanillas that can't be boosted rather less so.
I don't know about you, but given the flavour I figured I'd get at least

something

from a boost, even if it likely wasn't going to be as good as Electra's.

And I can't bring myself to grasp why town you would phrase that post in the negative.

What's the "positive"?
"Hey, we could mass claim and then boost a vanilla who doesn't know about his boosts (*cough* like me *cough*) and see whether it does anything to prove her claim!"

[TDC]

No, I thought she was town anyway.

Why type that post, then?

As I said, probably because people (Huntress, I assume) were claiming the information was not testable (and hence convenient for scum).

I thought I'd get something from a boost too, but a massclaim has nothing to do with what boosting does to vanillas.

But it tells you whether there are people that could potentially qualify for her statement, and would allow you to test the claim.

Maybe something more along the lines of "I tend to believe electra", the massclaim speculation makes zero sense cosidering your claim anyways. And that post also carries quite a strong negative connotation regarding electra.

I think I made it really clear I believed her. Seeing how I boosted her and voted Huntress largely because she attacked Electra after the boost.
If this formulation was so unclear regarding my intention.. why did nobody just ask me back then?

What do you make of the dichotomy GC drew between TDC's lack of opposition to boosting him D1 and eldarad's support of boosting on him D3 (as charactorized in 1358-1351)? For exmaple:

It's obviously a double standard, makes no sense and fits right into what else was part of his crap case.

TDC, it seems to me that GC was trying very hard to be as aggressive to you as he possibly could on D3, in a way that's above and beyond how he usually chooses to phrase himself. Do you agree? If so, why do you think that was?

I don't know how he "usually chooses to phrase himself", but compared to the rest of the game, yes.
Maybe he thought he could sway Incognito towards vigging me over him, ensuring victory. Or maybe he just wanted you to pose this question.
Or probably, a combination of both.

[TDC]

TDC - why did you spent the entire period I was away arguing with eldarad on one single point, instead of trying to come up with a case to explain your "lean" towards me?

Because I didn't had much of a case (we've been there already, haven't we? How it all boiled down to his plan vs your mysterious gc-is-town stance, etc) and eld started "suspecting" me for being against his stupid boost-plan.
I hoped that once you actually did your promised re-read your post would help me solidify my lean.

But you didn't say anything about boosting said vanillas, you were questioning their existence.

We're starting to go in circles now.

While Electra's information is not really testable right now, a mass claim without any plain vanillas would hurt her credibility a lot. (I am assuming that if what she says is true, vanillas that do not know about their boost are not boostable.. though that's just speculation).

I clearly liken the boostability to the existance of vanillas that don't know squat (and I think that's a reasonable assumption).
I don't see how I question the existance ever. As I've said before, I just express that in the long run her claim IS testable, contrary to other people's belief and that hence, she would be stupid to fake claim false information.
If this sounded as if I didn't believe her, why has nobody ever asked me about it when I was simultaneously boosting her, had defended her against Guardian's "my role is different" crap and so on?
I really can't do anything about the backwardness of the formulation than tell you that I tried not to put the "I'm a useless vanilla"-cap on my head.

So you think his plan was to get you lynched/vigged and have both him and eld survive the day/night cycle?

I guess.
Maybe he even decided to overdo it to make you think it's bussing.

[TDC]

No (unless you want to count Really Bad Idea). My wiki is complete.

[TDC]

Well, the later he answers, the less time you have to take apart his answers before the deadline hits...

[TDC]

See, this is the first time all game TDC has attacked me

Well, duh. I thought you were very likely town up until today and more likely than not town until you voted me.
I don't think the shot is cheap either, seeing how it miraculously made you actually post your reply five days.

I really can't do anything about the backwardness of the formulation than tell you that I tried not to put the "I'm a useless vanilla"-cap on my head.

And yet I was able express support for Electra without saying "I am a vanilla and therefore I believe her." So I don't think you can dismiss RR's point so easily.[/quote]
Oh, let's see.. how did you support Electra on D2?

We could boost someone 3 times.

Brilliant.

[TDC]

Meh, stupid quote tags.

[TDC]

I can't really bring a case on eldarad, so it's all up to you, RR.

At this point, where RR is confirmed town, you still "can't really bring a case" on me.
Post 1533 really is the first time you have made any kind of attack on me for the whole game.

You're joy that I was unable to correctly read you for a big part of the game and that there is indeed not much I can pin down to you is becoming rather tedious.

Oh, let's see.. how did you support Electra on D2?

So your position is that I wasn't supporting Electra on Day 2?

No, my position is that your support of Electra regarding the information she claimed was based on an argument that wouldn't convince anyone ("hey, we can just boost someone three times"). I find my argument to be more convincing (a mass claim is far more practical than locking in a boost choice for three nights), even though it was harder to express without implicitly claiming.

[TDC]

Meh.

That was one very, very annoying day.

[TDC]

TDC softclaiming non-vanilla sealed the deal.

I never intended to softclaim, but I did overlook that post when I went through my posts looking whether vanilla was a viable claim for me during the night before we massclaimed..
I really hope it was just a tiny thing and not the ultimate decider, that would make me feel quite bad.
That said, no idea what else I could've claimed.

Oh, I'm all for revealing the scum QuickTopic. Any reservations, TDC/Jahundo?

No, go ahead.

During my second boost, I actually gained NK immunity if I chose not to shoot during the night. SO if we had lynched GC during Day 3 and left Xtoxm alone, I could have no killed during Night 3, hopefully been the NK target and used my NK immunity, and then try and convince the town that I wasn't an SK and that we should lynch one of {eldarad, TDC} and vig the other during the next night for a guaranteed win.

Holy crap.

Our roles were rather tame in comparison.

[TDC]

I'll dig out the second boost PM when I get time.

I have this nagging feeling that killing vollkan over Incognito wasn't quite the right decision.

[TDC]

Uh, you mean other than being counterclaimed by Huntress?

[TDC]

Hmmm.. well if people trusted him enough to boost him twice, I don't think a counterclaim would have made too much of a difference. It would take some 'splainin but... yeah.

Yeah, but when Huntress turns up town, it's all over. Would've been just too many boosts in the hands of townies.

What made you decide to do this?

We thought you were going to continue vigging innocents. And vollkan was just plainly unlynchable, whereas you could at least potentially be seen as the SK.

[TDC]

The original version if this setup did contain a mafia roleblocker, and to be honest I think that would have been better than having the rolecop in.

While that would've given us the win (seeing how I had been boosted and could've blocked Incog), I can't tell whether that would've been better balanced.

The only town role I wouldn't include again is probably the mayor. I underestimated the potential effect of the double vote in an endgame

Yeah, that gave me some real headaches. Fortunately he got lynched.

[TDC]

One thing I'm still wondering about, TDC, is exactly why you chose to bus Jahudo D1?

It wasn't really a decision.. it just happened. It seemed kind of safe, and then his wagon suddenly exploded and I felt I couldn't go back.

[TDC]

I'm also well impressed with how we managed to lynch Xtoxm, lol.

Yeah, neither GC nor me really pushed that one, it was a genuine town effort :p