Large Normal 246: Game Over

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I claim miller

Same

[ssbm_Kyouko]

It's one of those games I guess
VOTE: nono

[ssbm_Kyouko]

As in several millers

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Holy shit you're here
VOTE: Guillotina
For that one time in that one game

[ssbm_Kyouko]

It's one of those games I guess
VOTE: nono

Do you know what your vote doesn't count?

I was confused by the VC as well but it looks like Jingle put my first vote onto nono, striked it out to indicate I moved my vote, and put my current vote on Guillotina. I have a vote

[ssbm_Kyouko]

It does help when trying to do VCA off the mod ISO alone. Otherwise if you want to be thorough sometimes you need to make your own intermediary ones to see what happened in between VCs if they were especially far apart

pedit: I'm a miller so I don't feel like voting millers lmao

[ssbm_Kyouko]

ur mom @kawaii

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Think Elements in 46

(or 45, fucking 0 index arrays on post number but 1 indexed in quote tags for some reason? Thanks BBCode)

is saying the inner quote in 28 has no relevance so it was snipped. Then asking does anyone else think it's scum-indicative when someone isn't voting

Elements doesn't assert it's scum-indicative, just asks

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Think Elements in 46

(or 45, fucking 0 index arrays on post number but 1 indexed in quote tags for some reason? Thanks BBCode)

is saying the inner quote in 28 has no relevance so it was snipped. Then asking does anyone else think it's scum-indicative when someone isn't voting

Elements doesn't assert it's scum-indicative, just asks

"does anyone else think"
Asking if anyone else thinks something implies they also think the same thing, she's asking if anyone else shares her thoughts
Least that's how I'm interpreting the question

Oh yeah that should be obvious, I misread the question

[ssbm_Kyouko]

No bloop for you

[ssbm_Kyouko]

It's been awhile, remind me why voting millers is the best option?

Slight chance mafia fakeclaims miller
They're guilty if investigated
If telling the truth, miller
If lying, mafia

I’m less inclined to vote a miller specifically because there’s more than one miller claim, it suggests that an investigative exists that can clear millers imo.

Or the mafia have a cop and by claiming miller we bring it to everyone's attention there might be a traitor

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I'm not sure. Dunn's claim felt like a joke with it being the first post of the game. Kyouko's feels more real but I'm not familiar enough with her to tell if it's coming from scum

I feel Duun's claim is genuine, millers often claim miller in their opening posts. Duun's miller claim feels straight up, unlikely that mafia plays this directly. Kyouko feels real/potentially opportunistic, shielding herself behind the initial miller claim if she is mafia

VOTE: ssbm_Kyouko

Oh very smart, Dunn is town because he got to the thread first, I see

[ssbm_Kyouko]

When I saw Dunn had already claimed Miller I was briefly inclined not to claim even though before opening the daystart PM I was planning to claim.

I decided against that though, I dont see how hiding it does any good. If it's a traitor game with a Mafia Cop it helps them find the traitor but also makes town wary of a traitor early.

If it's not a traitor game, town cops dont waste investigations and I'll be judged on my day play and not on my claim. I'm more than fine with that outcome.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Are you an Enchant alt btw?

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Anyone want to start a wagon?

VOTE: Duunstral
Voting the miller

If Dunn is a neighbour then I could see the miller claim coming from a traitor
But for now I think Dunn's town

I got dave and Dunn confused
I can VOTE: dunn

@Elements

- When you say you got dave and Dunn confused, how were they confused? Were you meaning to say "But for now I think Dave's town"?

[ssbm_Kyouko]

so you thought all of dave's and dunn's posts were from the same slot, presumably dave's slot because you say you had a read on him before that post. Which means you thought

davesaz

had claimed miller and you could see that claim coming from a neighbor traitor who for now you thought was actually just town.

Is this right so far? Or did you only confuse Dunn's 29 in this quote block and think that dave was replying to himself (to add on more commentary to his original question):

Gamma and Black probably town

Gamma has done what so far?

Why not the same amount of puzzlement at both?

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Anyone want to start a wagon?

VOTE: davesaz
Voting the miller

If dave is a neighbour then I could see the miller claim coming from a traitor
But for now I think dave's town

To be clear I've edited the names, Kawaii did not vote dave.

Elements, is this name-edited post representative
of the state of your mind when you made 39, then you realized on rereading that dave wasnt the miller claim and you decided to vote Dunnstral in 40?

If not, could you quote and edit 39 with the names as you think they were in your head when you made 39?

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I dont love that my questioning got hijacked because I'm not trying to frustrate you elements, I was rereading and 39/40 threw me off, trying to comprehend

Pedit: I think this answers that maybe?

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Specifically what I'm trying to comprehend is who did you townread in 39, so I can look back at that player and figure out why you were TRing them at that point. If I cant figure that out I plan to come back to you about it. And if it was Dunnstral you TRed in 39, I'm wondering how you got from TR in 39 to voting him for miller claim in 40

[ssbm_Kyouko]

to what end

And trying to get a read on you because I know this hyperposting vote-hopping from you so far is NAI after the meta-diving I did in Alianna's 9:12 Open we just finished

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Yeah it's all clear now.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Not on you necessarily, but interestingly enough it's piqued my scumdar on Gamma. I guess what it does for you is confirms you're still in your NAI range fmpov.

Need more time to think on this though, I'm rushing to phone post. Bbl.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Not on you necessarily, but interestingly enough it's piqued my scumdar on Gamma. I guess what it does for you is confirms you're still in your NAI range fmpov.

Need more time to think on this though, I'm rushing to phone post. Bbl.

How exactly?

I feel like you like to be "around" but not "driving" when you're scum, not that you often "drive" as town either, but when Dunnstral and you started pressing on Elements about 39 and 40 it felt like that - that is to say, being "around" without "driving". It's a vibe at this point.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Not so much no, I think scum!Gamma advances toward what is convenient without pushing it that way herself

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Idk if it makes sense for her to be doing that this early on D1 in a large though. Like there are 17 people here and some haven't posted yet. I don't understand why scum!Gamma would want to pressure Elements specifically. Maybe it makes sense if she is over-eager to distance from scum!elements but that feels like a reach

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Do you mean letting someone else advance it and push it along?

yes, someone else (me) finds a direction and scum!Gamma is there to support that direction if it is convenient for her, imo

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I've also been in a lot of games that Random Nurse was in a the start, my RVS vote on him is basically because I knew he wasn't going to show.

VOTE: Celebloki

[ssbm_Kyouko]

No bloop for you

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Well most of the players in this game

are

town...

[ssbm_Kyouko]

The classic scumscum where scum says scum instead of slip

I mean time

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Holy shit you're here
VOTE: Guillotina
For that one time in that one game

Who are you?

Chrono Trigger

[ssbm_Kyouko]

VOTE: Guillotina

I think there's partner equity in Guillotina/kyouko

Guillotina said she would support a kyouko wagon but jumped off less than 30 minutes later, right after Elements and I joined. I don't think the Celebloki vote was a very good reason to suddenly end their support and having Celebloki at the bottom of their preliminary reads in 310 feels like a performative justification for voting there rather than an actual read

In both 293 and 377 they made sure to include that they weren't voting for the same reason as the person they were sheeping which feels like scum that might be trying to flaunt that their read is unique and different

I think the questions from Guillotina are like...ok, but nothing scum couldn't come up with in an attempt to seem townie, and I think the interpretation in 374 is really odd and it just feels like unnecessary shade towards Timmer

Black is town I think. I don't think scum stews over their wagon like this. I think the conclusion of partner equity comes more from reading us both individually as scum than it does from the references evidence, and probably I need to go back but I dont know

why

Black is/was voting me.

I think Guillotina's play can be interpreted the way Black has done, as performative, but I'll also say that this game's Guillotina feels a far cry from Chrono Trigger where I did correctly identify them as scum on D1 and they led a mislim on me that Day. I've only played with Guillotina once and that's how it went so I am being vigilant.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Black could be town here. Never seen her as scum before but she seems towny

Agreed, Black is obvious town in my opinion.

They suspect me based on my playstyle which is what town usually do.

If they townread me right away that'd be a read flag.

This was scum!Guillotina's defense in CTC iirc

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I've also been in a lot of games that Random Nurse was in a the start, my RVS vote on him is basically because I knew he wasn't going to show.

VOTE: Celebloki

It feels strange to me that nobody else took issue with this for the same reason I did. Guillotina voted here but not for the same reason.

The issue I have with this post is it reveals that Celebloki wanted a 'safe' RVS vote. Who but scum wants that?

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Who but scum even thinks "I know this guy isnt going to show so I'll vote him in RVS"

If you're doing this as town you can just not vote. This is scum trying to fit in during RVS and now that we're out of it he felt comfortable enough to admit it.

He slipped imo

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Also Elements you should reread my ISO up to your 404 and get back to me on your interpretation. You might need to open some of the posts that don't have quotes to see the actual context.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

UNVOTE:


At this point I can say I heavily town read RN, at least until I develop a different meta for him.

Don't you have any scumreads though?

What's the basis of scum!Dunn?

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Who but scum even thinks "I know this guy isnt going to show so I'll vote him in RVS"

If you're doing this as town you can just not vote. This is scum trying to fit in during RVS and now that we're out of it he felt comfortable enough to admit it.

He slipped imo

I always have a reason for a vote, even in RVS. It can sometimes be just because I think their name is silly, because of a previous game with that person, or any other random reason. Are you saying all townies always truly randomly vote in RVS? You had no reason to vote Nono or guillotina at the start?

Nono, no. No reason I mean.

Guillotina, yes. For that one time he was scum (that I found on D1 who then turned it around on me and got me mislimmed D1) in that one game (Chrono Trigger Chronicles: The Rise of Yakra).

I don't think townies truly "randomly" vote, no. For me I was just looking through the player list and the name caught my eye so I voted nono. Then I stopped looking at the playerlist and got back to reading the game. Later on I looked at the full playerlist and recognized Guillotina and I did have a reason for that vote.

I dont think the problem is that your vote wasnt random, I dont think town is always going to open up a random number generator and pick someone. The reason you had I think is scum-indicative. If you think RN isn't going to join the game, why vote there (rhetorical)? You'll never get a reaction that way and I think as town (the royal) you would want to avoid that kind of vote that does nothing when they could make a different one that might produce something.

That's why I moved my vote from Nono to Guillotina, because with Nono it was just a vote for whomever, not that likely to get attention, but I did get Guillotina's attention when he started reading

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Summary

I can confirm that Guillo is not scum, so we are not living in a perfect world where town auto this shit.

Hopefully this injects my thoughts and process in the thread and I have helped you determine whether I deserve the sussuspicion I've gotten so far or not, as well as some insights about the interactions between some of the players.

I trimmed down that post, but... like, I'm sorry, was all of those posts, all of those association link things really just to basically say that you are town? The overall gist seems to be that you aren't mafia because if you were, you mentioned your teammates a lot?

Town

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Position	Players
Town-read	-
Town-lean	-
Null-town	-
Null	Gamma Emerald, Celebloki, Naerys, davesaz, Hu Tao, Broccoli Quest 2, Guillotina, Cat Scratch Fever, Keyleth, Dunnstral, KawaiiKame, ssbm_Kyouko, TimmerRC, Elements, Andresvmb, Black
Null-scum	-
Scum-lean	-
Scum-read	-

ID	Username	Pronouns	Status	Claim	Flip
01	Gamma Emerald	she/it	Alive	—	—
02	Random Nurse	he/him	Alive	—	—
03	Celebloki	he/him	Alive	—	—
04	Naerys	She	Alive	—	—
05	davesaz	?	Alive	—	—
06	Hu Tao	they/she	Alive	—	—
07	Broccoli Quest 2	they	Alive	—	—
08	Guillotina	?	Alive	—	—
09	Cat Scratch Fever	she/her	Alive	—	—
10	Keyleth	she/her	Alive	—	—
11	Dunnstral	he/him	Alive	—	—
12	KawaiiKame	?	Alive	—	—
13	ssbm_Kyouko/b]	she/her	Alive	—	—
14	TimmerRC	he/him	Alive	—	—
15	Elements	they/she/it	Alive	—	—
16	Andresvmb	he/him	Alive	—	—
17	Black	she/her	Alive	—	—

Nice I got 13

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Snip

Nice I got 13

P sure it’s playerlist order

So I got 13 twice then

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I'm getting concerned about dave tbh

[ssbm_Kyouko]

640 bothered me because it was so "mediator-ish" without really adding anything thoughtful. I think we could all see both sides, even if personally we would agree with Gamma or with BQ2: Electric Boogaloo. I don't think it's hard to see that Gamma felt the behavior was manipulative and also that BQ2 did not mean it in that way (or at least says he didn't, which feeds more into it feeling manipulative to Gamma)
And it felt like he had not posted in a while so I went back to see when he posted last and what happened.

So since it's apparent what the situation is, why post at all? 640 feels like a long post about... nothing.

And I didnt remember dave posting recently so I thought "hmm, I'm going to go back and check what has happened between 640 and the last time dave posted because that seems like a scummy "I'm not lurking" post to me. So I did... and while checking when he last posted I read Dave's ISO. It's mostly shading Keyleth, but not trying to start any pressure directly on her.

I think dave is slitherin' rn
VOTE: davesaz

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Also Gamma feels like town here after that argument with BQ2. Could be TvT, but BQ2 is gimmicking so it's naturally harder to read his side of things

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Like if he wasn't gimmicking I'm inclined to say that's TVT

[ssbm_Kyouko]

No bloops

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Not necessarily all of them no; I think it's expected that there will be people that have gripes with your playstyle. I just think Dave's gripes are coming from scum though - not to say he wouldn't feel the same about your play as town, but he isn't doing anything about it, and it doesn't seem like he's doing much of anything else either. His one thing is that your playstyle is easy to fake as scum, but he's not otherwise making pushes elsewhere or on you. Feels like that's his "I'm doing something" and it's a safe "something" to do as well because your playstyle is easy to fake as scum

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Like it's not a bold or revolutionary take. Very safe, middle of the pack, etc.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Not necessarily all of them no; I think it's expected that there will be people that have gripes with your playstyle. I just think Dave's gripes are coming from scum though - not to say he wouldn't feel the same about your play as town, but he isn't doing anything about it, and it doesn't seem like he's doing much of anything else either. His one thing is that your playstyle is easy to fake as scum, but he's not otherwise making pushes elsewhere or on you. Feels like that's his "I'm doing something" and it's a safe "something" to do as well because your playstyle is easy to fake as scum

I'm seeing who goes apeshit one way or the other and who ignores

it

. The actual material to read people from on d1 is always thin, and this game is no exception.

By "it" you mean your posting about Keyleth? or Keyleth's playstyle? Both?

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I did have some early thoughts I wrote down around the time I made my vote, but again I don’t think these are super reliable. In any event, they are as follows:

61 - TimmerRC is probably just Town. Getting a tad upset at a VT claim probably comes from a place of someone who wants the Town to win (which explains the annoyance with a claim that would, if serious, hurt the Town). I see that it was later clarified that it was a serious claim - I thought it had to be a joke, and don’t view it positively either.
67 - This is a Scummy post from KawaiiKame. TimmerRC didn’t call it weird. They didn’t even really imply it was coming from Scum. They simply seemed to question the logic behind making the claim at all.
105 - I agree with the logic here.
117 - This is Town posting by Black.
120 - I don’t know if Town is likely to give out this defense. I am leaning negative on Dunnstral.
137 - This just feels like a bad vote to me.
213 - I am not getting the vibes expressed by Hu Tao, which is why I have negative thoughts (I don’t believe the attack).

61 - Timmer said he comes from a site where claiming is not allowed and was not upset but confused I think? Actually this is unfair of me given the last bit of 61 -

so I would love to hear how claiming this helps the town.

67 - Kawaii didn't say Timmer called it weird - Kawaii was himself calling it weird, and was replying to Timmer's post but was adding more commentary on the Hu Tao VT claim.
120 - Dunn isn't really defending anything here unless you want to say he's defending KawaiiKame

from

Gamma - that's a reference to his earlier post (113) questioning how believable Elements' 40 was.

I thought you misread/misconstrued the 3 posts you had the most "meaty" commentary on but it seems like it was 2 of the 3 actually. Not the happiest with this catch-up

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Black is town I think.

I don't think scum stews over their wagon like this.

I think the conclusion of partner equity comes more from reading us both individually as scum than it does from the references evidence, and probably I need to go back but I dont know why Black is/was voting me.

Why am I town for this exactly?

Do you want more detail than that? When I said "their" wagon I meant my wagon that you were (are still?) on, to be more clear. Iirc you had started that wagon. I didn't think scum!you (this is a read on scum behavior in general, not you specifically) was likely to hyperfixate on my wagon so early on D1.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Can someone explain the case on Celebloki?

Spoiler: case highlighted in color

I've also been in a lot of games that Random Nurse was in a the start, my RVS vote on him is basically because I knew he wasn't going to show.

VOTE: Celebloki

It feels strange to me that nobody else took issue with this for the same reason I did. Guillotina voted here but not for the same reason.

The issue I have with this post is it reveals that Celebloki wanted a 'safe' RVS vote. Who but scum wants that?

Who but scum even thinks "I know this guy isnt going to show so I'll vote him in RVS"

If you're doing this as town you can just not vote. This is scum trying to fit in during RVS and now that we're out of it he felt comfortable enough to admit it.

He slipped imo

Who but scum even thinks "I know this guy isnt going to show so I'll vote him in RVS"

If you're doing this as town you can just not vote. This is scum trying to fit in during RVS and now that we're out of it he felt comfortable enough to admit it.

He slipped imo

I always have a reason for a vote, even in RVS. It can sometimes be just because I think their name is silly, because of a previous game with that person, or any other random reason. Are you saying all townies always truly randomly vote in RVS? You had no reason to vote Nono or guillotina at the start?

Nono, no. No reason I mean.

Guillotina, yes. For that one time he was scum (that I found on D1 who then turned it around on me and got me mislimmed D1) in that one game (Chrono Trigger Chronicles: The Rise of Yakra).

I don't think townies truly "randomly" vote, no. For me I was just looking through the player list and the name caught my eye so I voted nono. Then I stopped looking at the playerlist and got back to reading the game. Later on I looked at the full playerlist and recognized Guillotina and I did have a reason for that vote.

I dont think the problem is that your vote wasnt random

, I dont think town is always going to open up a random number generator and pick someone.

The reason you had I think is scum-indicative. If you think RN isn't going to join the game, why vote there (rhetorical)? You'll never get a reaction that way and I think as town (the royal) you would want to avoid that kind of vote that does nothing when they could make a different one that might produce something.

That's why I moved my vote from Nono to Guillotina, because with Nono it was just a vote for whomever, not that likely to get attention, but I did get Guillotina's attention when he started reading

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Black is town I think.

I don't think scum stews over their wagon like this.

I think the conclusion of partner equity comes more from reading us both individually as scum than it does from the references evidence, and probably I need to go back but I dont know why Black is/was voting me.

Why am I town for this exactly?

Do you want more detail than that? When I said "their" wagon I meant

my wagon

that you were (are still?) on, to be more clear. Iirc you had started that wagon. I didn't think scum!you (this is a read on scum behavior in general, not you specifically) was likely to hyperfixate on

my wagon

so early on D1.

I guess I didn't really understand that line you bolded. I still don't.

What are you referring to as "my wagon" here

By "their wagon" I meant the wagon you were pushing on me. I called it "yours" because you were pushing it but normally a third party would call it "the wagon on ssbm_Kyouko" if they were being very specific. I don't think scum does what you did, therefore I think you are not scum, leaving you as town

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Oh, going back to read it now since I was wondering why you were confused about that, I think you were actually wagonning Guillotina at the time so it would be the wagon on Guillotina I was referring to. I made 465 when I read 384 - you were voting me before Guillo and I think that's why when remembering back now I thought I was referring to your vote/wagon on me

[ssbm_Kyouko]

no bloops for you

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Wait I am so confused now - why would you snip my original quote out of 465 lmao

[ssbm_Kyouko]

VOTE: Guillotina

I think there's partner equity in Guillotina/kyouko

Guillotina said she would support a kyouko wagon but jumped off less than 30 minutes later, right after Elements and I joined.

I don't think the Celebloki vote was a very good reason to suddenly end their support and having Celebloki at the bottom of their preliminary reads in 310 feels like a performative justification for voting there rather than an actual read

In both 293 and 377 they made sure to include that they weren't voting for the same reason as the person they were sheeping which feels like scum that might be trying to flaunt that their read is unique and different

I think the questions from Guillotina are like...ok, but nothing scum couldn't come up with in an attempt to seem townie, and I think the interpretation in 374 is really odd and it just feels like unnecessary shade towards Timmer

Black is town I think. I don't think scum stews over their wagon like this. I think the conclusion of partner equity comes more from reading us both individually as scum than it does from the references evidence, and probably I need to go back but I dont know

why

Black is/was voting me.

I think Guillotina's play can be interpreted the way Black has done, as performative, but I'll also say that this game's Guillotina feels a far cry from Chrono Trigger where I did correctly identify them as scum on D1 and they led a mislim on me that Day. I've only played with Guillotina once and that's how it went so I am being vigilant.

So yeah I was talking about the wagon on me - I think when you made 384 it was because you were stewing over a scumread on me (for reference your previous post was a vote on me) and when you saw Guillo move votes off of me you were so focused on me being scum that the immediate assumption is Guillo must also be my scumbuddy. I don't think scum is stewing over their fake scumreads which means you were at the time genuinely scumreading me which means you are town - at the very least towny enough for D1 in a 17p game. Not interested in eliminating you toDay.

If "stewing over" is what is confusing, it's when you're silently thinking over something that bothers you, sort of implies getting heated about it as well - akin to cooking a stew (which cooks at a lower temp for a long time). I'm not sure if it's an idiom and I don't get the impression English is not your first language, so sorry if the confusion stemmed from that.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

You could have not done that and let me just get the natural. Plus is Elements even here rn?

I also like pagetops though so I'll take them when I see them - not going to intentionally hyperpost to or spam to take the pagetop, but when I finish my post and see it's 699 I'm 100% of the time going to take the pagetop

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Can someone explain the case on Celebloki?

Spoiler: case highlighted in color

I've also been in a lot of games that Random Nurse was in a the start, my RVS vote on him is basically because I knew he wasn't going to show.

VOTE: Celebloki

It feels strange to me that nobody else took issue with this for the same reason I did. Guillotina voted here but not for the same reason.

The issue I have with this post is it reveals that Celebloki wanted a 'safe' RVS vote. Who but scum wants that?

Who but scum even thinks "I know this guy isnt going to show so I'll vote him in RVS"

If you're doing this as town you can just not vote. This is scum trying to fit in during RVS and now that we're out of it he felt comfortable enough to admit it.

He slipped imo

Who but scum even thinks "I know this guy isnt going to show so I'll vote him in RVS"

If you're doing this as town you can just not vote. This is scum trying to fit in during RVS and now that we're out of it he felt comfortable enough to admit it.

He slipped imo

I always have a reason for a vote, even in RVS. It can sometimes be just because I think their name is silly, because of a previous game with that person, or any other random reason. Are you saying all townies always truly randomly vote in RVS? You had no reason to vote Nono or guillotina at the start?

Nono, no. No reason I mean.

Guillotina, yes. For that one time he was scum (that I found on D1 who then turned it around on me and got me mislimmed D1) in that one game (Chrono Trigger Chronicles: The Rise of Yakra).

I don't think townies truly "randomly" vote, no. For me I was just looking through the player list and the name caught my eye so I voted nono. Then I stopped looking at the playerlist and got back to reading the game. Later on I looked at the full playerlist and recognized Guillotina and I did have a reason for that vote.

I dont think the problem is that your vote wasnt random

, I dont think town is always going to open up a random number generator and pick someone.

The reason you had I think is scum-indicative. If you think RN isn't going to join the game, why vote there (rhetorical)? You'll never get a reaction that way and I think as town (the royal) you would want to avoid that kind of vote that does nothing when they could make a different one that might produce something.

That's why I moved my vote from Nono to Guillotina, because with Nono it was just a vote for whomever, not that likely to get attention, but I did get Guillotina's attention when he started reading

So you're entire case on Celebloki is that you think his RVS vote was safe? I don't really think scum would be concerned over the optics of an RVS vote

Does anyone else have anything more substantial?

Yes, that it was safe on purpose. Nobody else has cased Celebloki I don't think. Guillo said his vote was for a different reason than mine so maybe he posted a reason somewhere, I feel like I read his reason and it didn't leave a lasting impression because I don't remember it. Mostly I remember being disappointed it was not for the reason I had not yet spoken

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Can someone explain the case on Celebloki?

Spoiler: case highlighted in color

I've also been in a lot of games that Random Nurse was in a the start, my RVS vote on him is basically because I knew he wasn't going to show.

VOTE: Celebloki

It feels strange to me that nobody else took issue with this for the same reason I did. Guillotina voted here but not for the same reason.

The issue I have with this post is it reveals that Celebloki wanted a 'safe' RVS vote. Who but scum wants that?

Who but scum even thinks "I know this guy isnt going to show so I'll vote him in RVS"

If you're doing this as town you can just not vote. This is scum trying to fit in during RVS and now that we're out of it he felt comfortable enough to admit it.

He slipped imo

Who but scum even thinks "I know this guy isnt going to show so I'll vote him in RVS"

If you're doing this as town you can just not vote. This is scum trying to fit in during RVS and now that we're out of it he felt comfortable enough to admit it.

He slipped imo

I always have a reason for a vote, even in RVS. It can sometimes be just because I think their name is silly, because of a previous game with that person, or any other random reason. Are you saying all townies always truly randomly vote in RVS? You had no reason to vote Nono or guillotina at the start?

Nono, no. No reason I mean.

Guillotina, yes. For that one time he was scum (that I found on D1 who then turned it around on me and got me mislimmed D1) in that one game (Chrono Trigger Chronicles: The Rise of Yakra).

I don't think townies truly "randomly" vote, no. For me I was just looking through the player list and the name caught my eye so I voted nono. Then I stopped looking at the playerlist and got back to reading the game. Later on I looked at the full playerlist and recognized Guillotina and I did have a reason for that vote.

I dont think the problem is that your vote wasnt random

, I dont think town is always going to open up a random number generator and pick someone.

The reason you had I think is scum-indicative. If you think RN isn't going to join the game, why vote there (rhetorical)? You'll never get a reaction that way and I think as town (the royal) you would want to avoid that kind of vote that does nothing when they could make a different one that might produce something.

That's why I moved my vote from Nono to Guillotina, because with Nono it was just a vote for whomever, not that likely to get attention, but I did get Guillotina's attention when he started reading

So you're entire case on Celebloki is that you think his RVS vote was safe? I don't really think scum would be concerned over the optics of an RVS vote

Does anyone else have anything more substantial?

Yes, that it was safe on purpose. Nobody else has cased Celebloki I don't think. Guillo said his vote was for a different reason than mine so maybe he posted a reason somewhere, I feel like I read his reason and it didn't leave a lasting impression because I don't remember it. Mostly I remember being disappointed it was not for the reason I had not yet spoken

What is the scum motivation behind a safe RVS vote? I guess what I'm asking is do you think scum are paranoid about how their RVS votes look?

I think they

can

be, and less importantly, but still relevant: I think it's highly unlikely that town get paranoid about how their RVS vote looks outside of

extenuating

circumstances, like maybe if they're brand new to Mafia and the concept of RVS and are naturally an anxious person, or maybe if they just came off of being mislimmed because they E-1ed someone in RVS unknowingly, they're going to be more worried the next time around.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

just saw BQ2 is they and not he - sorry about that, I should have checked earlier when I was phoneposting.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

furiously refreshing to congratulate Black on her natural pagetop

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Can someone explain the case on Celebloki?

Spoiler: case highlighted in color

I've also been in a lot of games that Random Nurse was in a the start, my RVS vote on him is basically because I knew he wasn't going to show.

VOTE: Celebloki

It feels strange to me that nobody else took issue with this for the same reason I did. Guillotina voted here but not for the same reason.

The issue I have with this post is it reveals that Celebloki wanted a 'safe' RVS vote. Who but scum wants that?

Who but scum even thinks "I know this guy isnt going to show so I'll vote him in RVS"

If you're doing this as town you can just not vote. This is scum trying to fit in during RVS and now that we're out of it he felt comfortable enough to admit it.

He slipped imo

Who but scum even thinks "I know this guy isnt going to show so I'll vote him in RVS"

If you're doing this as town you can just not vote. This is scum trying to fit in during RVS and now that we're out of it he felt comfortable enough to admit it.

He slipped imo

I always have a reason for a vote, even in RVS. It can sometimes be just because I think their name is silly, because of a previous game with that person, or any other random reason. Are you saying all townies always truly randomly vote in RVS? You had no reason to vote Nono or guillotina at the start?

Nono, no. No reason I mean.

Guillotina, yes. For that one time he was scum (that I found on D1 who then turned it around on me and got me mislimmed D1) in that one game (Chrono Trigger Chronicles: The Rise of Yakra).

I don't think townies truly "randomly" vote, no. For me I was just looking through the player list and the name caught my eye so I voted nono. Then I stopped looking at the playerlist and got back to reading the game. Later on I looked at the full playerlist and recognized Guillotina and I did have a reason for that vote.

I dont think the problem is that your vote wasnt random

, I dont think town is always going to open up a random number generator and pick someone.

The reason you had I think is scum-indicative. If you think RN isn't going to join the game, why vote there (rhetorical)? You'll never get a reaction that way and I think as town (the royal) you would want to avoid that kind of vote that does nothing when they could make a different one that might produce something.

That's why I moved my vote from Nono to Guillotina, because with Nono it was just a vote for whomever, not that likely to get attention, but I did get Guillotina's attention when he started reading

So you're entire case on Celebloki is that you think his RVS vote was safe? I don't really think scum would be concerned over the optics of an RVS vote

Does anyone else have anything more substantial?

Yes, that it was safe on purpose. Nobody else has cased Celebloki I don't think. Guillo said his vote was for a different reason than mine so maybe he posted a reason somewhere, I feel like I read his reason and it didn't leave a lasting impression because I don't remember it. Mostly I remember being disappointed it was not for the reason I had not yet spoken

What is the scum motivation behind a safe RVS vote? I guess what I'm asking is do you think scum are paranoid about how their RVS votes look?

I think they

can

be, and less importantly, but still relevant: I think it's highly unlikely that town get paranoid about how their RVS vote looks outside of

extenuating

circumstances, like maybe if they're brand new to Mafia and the concept of RVS and are naturally an anxious person, or maybe if they just came off of being mislimmed because they E-1ed someone in RVS unknowingly, they're going to be more worried the next time around.

Ok, fair. What gives you the impression that Celebloki is new to Mafia and is anxious? Have you looked at previous games to see if maybe he could be worried about it this time around?

I don't get that impression, I was saying that outside of extenuating circumstances, the self-awareness of going after a "safe" RVS vote comes from scum. There are scum that won't care about how it looks, and outside of extenuating circumstances, I think town will not care about how their vote looks. And no I haven't looked at Celebloki's previous games for this purpose. I wasn't thinking of the extenuating circumstances when I made the vote, but even if I had been I would not have looked at the games most likely. Easy enough for him to explain why he wanted a safe vote if there is a reasonable explanation.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

reminder for me I need to go back and read what got marked as read when I posted

[ssbm_Kyouko]

640 bothered me because it was so "mediator-ish" without really adding anything thoughtful. I think we could all see both sides, even if personally we would agree with Gamma or with BQ2: Electric Boogaloo. I don't think it's hard to see that Gamma felt the behavior was manipulative and also that BQ2 did not mean it in that way (or at least says he didn't, which feeds more into it feeling manipulative to Gamma)
And it felt like he had not posted in a while so I went back to see when he posted last and what happened.

So since it's apparent what the situation is, why post at all? 640 feels like a long post about... nothing.

And I didnt remember dave posting recently so I thought "hmm, I'm going to go back and check what has happened between 640 and the last time dave posted because that seems like a scummy "I'm not lurking" post to me. So I did... and while checking when he last posted I read Dave's ISO. It's mostly shading Keyleth, but not trying to start any pressure directly on her.

I think dave is slitherin' rn
VOTE: davesaz

First, while I get whatchu sayin, what exactly does davesaz gain from posting 640 as scum?

The appearance of thread presence/activity

Second, I think the reason for making it as town is an attempt to diffuse a TvT. To me it looks like it worked, since Gamma is no longer voting me.

Additionally, I must emphasize that I believe that davesaz is town. I have read two of his scum games and he was extremely easy to spot as scum in both. He does not feel similar in this game.

Also Gamma feels like town here after that argument with BQ2. Could be TvT, but BQ2 is gimmicking so it's naturally harder to read his side of things

Like if he wasn't gimmicking I'm inclined to say that's TVT

How does my gimmicking affect your ability to read me? Can't you read through the gimmick?

Or differently put: what is town indicative about my play, and why is it not town indicative in light of having a gimmick?

Knowing that you're gimmicking means I can't really accept the tone of any of your posts, because they are edited through the lens of the broccoli. I know this sounds really dumb but I don't think your posts are unedited if that makes sense. Like you're going to make sure when you post that you sound like Broccoli Quest 2 and not like [insert main name here] - that's fine, but your tone can't be taken at face value because it is certainly faked.

As an aside, I dunno if you noticed but my pronouns are "they". So I would appreciate if you use them. Though I am aware that a certain type of users (colloquially known as "alt hunters") may derive immense pleasure from ascribing gender/sex characteristics to a broccoli. If you are one of them, please proceed with using "he".

Yes, sorry about that, on the phone it doesnt show them next to profile pictures in the thread and I should have checked elsewhere first

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I would like to propose a plan:

Every person list 2-4 people they are sure are town with higher than 90% certainty.

Then we make a pool of 4-5 people who never get voted today.

Then we just wagon a random person who's not in the pool, and repeat the same tomorrow. If the reads are accurate, that gives 33% chance to hit scum each day, or about 60% chance to to succeed on either.

My 2 are Gamma and Nurse btw.

Being generous and assuming we get a pool of 5 to not be limmed that contains 1 scum because its D1 and reads are gonna be bad overall - the odds of at least one success over 2 days should be closer to 40% not 60, I think. If mental math isnt hard now that I'm old

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Actually no even lower because I was thinking 5 scum total, 4 of 12, should be 4 scum in this game

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Brocoli can be town too

Why do you TR Broccoli?

[ssbm_Kyouko]

also no bloops

[ssbm_Kyouko]

black play here feels very analytical and logical,

it's hard for me to wrap a read on that given I'm mostly the other way.

Not that I haven't run into people like this but it's a 50/50 most of the time.

Do you think the plan is scummy or are there other reasons you SR BQ?

I just typically scumread plans like this. It always reads as an attempt to get a bunch of information out on the table in order to make the optimal NK's and night targets. I think it could come from town though so it's just meh

You said the plan was "interesting" ...what does that mean? Do you think it's scummy or nah?

I don’t think it’s scummy in isolation; with additional context it could be. But in this instance I think it’s a town move.

Really? I've seen that plan executed by wolves before, at least if you put the plan into action given you're asking for support on a wagon and who are the top towns. I think it's a net positive for wolves, while for town it depends on the first hit. So in isolation you can see how the post is sort of wolfy.

However, with the added context with how Broccoli is playing I'm more inclined to believe it's in good faith. Maybe I wouldn't feel this way if I wasn't nodding along with their previous posts but yeah.

Idk, this kinda feels analytical and logical to me

actually same reaction get out of my head charles

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Using this pagetop to announce dave's scumday is my birthday

[ssbm_Kyouko]

but when town you tend to push a lot of questionable theories that make very little sense.

Are you referring to this post?

Not exactly, but it's the right game.
This post is where I had the epiphany I'm referring to, about a different player in that game.

Why didn't you reply to Random Nurse when he asked specifically for anyone that has success meta-reading Gamma or earlier when he more generally asked about meta-reading anyone in the game?

Anyone here known of any of the other players her that have legitimate meta/alignment tells?

Not really. You?

Dave and Dunn I think I can tell now which they are, but I need to see more content/behavioral patterns.

Anyone here have useful information on the Scum version of Gamma Emerald?

As is I slightly Townread the slot based on gutvibes.

This is kinda just rhetorical because I'm pretty sure if you were town you should have shared since Gamma

was

scum in that game

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Taking this one because 8/25 is my birthday

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Taking this one because 8/25 is my birthday

You were born in two years from now???

Yes I have the Benjamin Button disease or something

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Question to everyone, is it me or there seems to be resistance to a Naerys vote even though they have contributed a lot less than other slots like Elements or myself who got more votes on, in spite our higher activity. Why is that? What's the story?

Something something activity isn't AI

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Yeah ok actually if it comes down to it today I'd put Naerys high in my POE after reading her ISO, but I'd prefer one of my own scumreads dave/celebloki. Naerys feels like she has a decent chance to be scum here, probably higher than Celebloki from an outside POV. I know people in general are hesitant to hard scumread or hard townread off of small things the way I SR Celebloki but it's like the same way I got my hard Elements TR in Open 893. I could just smell lazy town from a mile away when they tried to scumread Gamma for pretty low effort meta reasons (turned out they were right about Gamma though)

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Yoink

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Mine

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I'll answer you when I'm on PC @Black

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Yeah ok actually if it comes down to it today I'd put Naerys high in my POE after reading her ISO, but I'd prefer one of my own scumreads dave/celebloki. Naerys feels like she has a decent chance to be scum here, probably higher than Celebloki from an outside POV. I know people in general are hesitant to hard scumread or hard townread off of small things the way I SR Celebloki but it's like the same way I got my hard Elements TR in Open 893. I could just smell lazy town from a mile away when they tried to scumread Gamma for pretty low effort meta reasons (turned out they were right about Gamma though)

What is it that you dislike about Naerys's ISO?

Actually I'm reading it again on desktop rather than mobile and it's not as bad. I still take issue with some of the theoretical/waffling posting in here but I think I read it too fast. I'm up to post 555 now on rereading and this is the part that gets more complex, I really need to be on desktop to see what is happening here and see if Naerys is actually caught in something, or if Hu Tao is mistaken, or if Hu Tao is acting in bad faith here. But yeah this is what I saw up to 555:

Spoiler: ISO quotes with commentary

From what I gathered, Miller claims are pretty controversial. Scum could claim this early in order to deter any potential investigative roles from targeting them, so people generally aren't a big fan of these claims

indeed, but if its true, its better to claim it asap
In my opinion, claiming miller this early feels towny. Of course, scum could be bold enough to try to pull this. But i find it unlikely. Most scum i have played against did not like much attention at D1.

This felt waffley when I was reading it the first time yesterday, and even again today, because it was like "claiming miller early is towny. But it also could be scummy." But later on Naerys solidifies this stance so it's not as waffley as I thought. By itself it's waffley and when reading quickly I didn't notice the reinforcement that comes later when Naerys firmly is in the "miller claims are town" camp

For now my first impressions are that dave and both millers could be town.
Still too far from finding a scum, but its a start.

So this is the first time she reaffirms that both millers could be town - fine enough, and by itself, like a lot of her reads, it looks shallow. I think this is more of a playstyle thing though, to make short posts, because when questioned she does have reasonable answers about her reads, and her reads make sense. She just doesn't explain them always.

I'm too late to be the first one to bring up that questioning Elements over apparently getting Dunn and me confused seems pretty nit picky. To me jumping on a "slip" is scum more often than town. Not enough to make a read from but worth remembering.

I think it depends on the slip. When person starts to pushing for a person that got previous night NKed, i think that deserves to be pushed. But mistaking one player for another can happen easily to anyone. Especially if they have similiar names/pictures. Happened to me, was quite embarassing. So i can relate to Elements and honestly dont really feel like pushing him for it.
As for scum pushing this slip - yes, it feels like something scum would try to exploit. Some players still didnt even post, so the chance that Elements was pushed by townies only is an equal one in my mind.

At first I thought this post was sort of weird - too hypothetical, but I realize it's just worded clunkily and it starts with a hypothetical counterexample to the actual "slip" that was being pushed at the time. I think since it started in a way that felt weird I had trouble keeping up with it but slowing down, I can see the first bit is explaining why Elements might have mixed up dave/dunn. Then she moves on to say scum could be pushing elements for the mixup, but also that a lot of players haven't posted and everyone posting (or maybe just everyone pushing Elements) could be town. I think this, recognziing there are people that haven't posted yet and thinking the scum could be there, is town-indicative and I did not pick up on it the first time I read this post or when I read Naerys's ISO on my phone yesterday. Today I'm seeing it.

I'm too late to be the first one to bring up that questioning Elements over apparently getting Dunn and me confused seems pretty nit picky. To me jumping on a "slip" is scum more often than town. Not enough to make a read from but worth remembering.

I think it depends on the slip. When person starts to pushing for a person that got previous night NKed, i think that deserves to be pushed. But mistaking one player for another can happen easily to anyone. Especially if they have similiar names/pictures. Happened to me, was quite embarassing. So i can relate to Elements and honestly dont really feel like pushing him for it.

What scum agenda involves pushing the last night’s NK?

Not much of agenda as lack of engagement and paying attention.
Even though he isnt in this game,scum!gob is already legendary for these slips

This post I actually didn't like either time reading it, and it even got me again when I was quoting posts I don't like, but now that I have more context on the previous post (pushing last night's NK), I know that that was sort of an outlandish example of a slip that should always be pushed to be in opposition to a more reasonable "slip" (being an accidental slip anyone could make, not a scumslip), which is what Naerys was saying Elements' "slip" was. The reason I didn't like it is because I don't like bringing up scum!gob who is not in this game because it feels like a distraction from the pressure being put on Naerys by the question posed by Gamma, but actually I think if Gamma had read the original post more closely in the first place it would have been clear that the example provided wasn't meant to be comparable to this game, and she maybe wouldn't have asked it of Naerys in the first place. I can't speak for Gamma here but yeah.

I'm delighted to hear that you judge me by my color and species and NOT by my behavior. That's truly the best way to judge people.

Well, since it behaved quite nastily in my stomech i would say i judged it by behavior too.
Idk if juicy. I dont get much of solving vibe from Keyleth, so if she posted some RL it´d be nice. Same goes Kawaii.
Andresvmb lurks and i have habit of putting some pressure at lurkers.
VOTE: Andresvmb

This post does feel like justifying her vote unnecessarily at first, but I actually think it's a really sensical town-motivated vote. It looks like Naerys's style thus far has been to form Townreads at the start and move on from there. She didn't start by scumhunting, she started by townhunting and that's totally fine especially in a large game like this. I think Naerys's wording can read as scummy because it can be clunky but I assume English is just not her first language given how she posts and that her location is Czech Republic.

So yeah after reading closer I don't think Naerys is scummy up to 555. She's towny even. Will need to see how the back and forth with Hu Tao went and maybe see if there's been some bad faith coming from HT.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

This is a very long post that took a long time to make. If you don't want to read it that's fine, but if you're named Hu Tao, Guillotina, Black, or Naerys you should read it. There are questions for Guillo/Black within.

tl;dr, for the dummies -

Naerys town

,

Hu Tao scummy

(it kind of rhymes)

VOTE: Guillotina

I think there's partner equity in Guillotina/kyouko

Guillotina said she would support a kyouko wagon but jumped off less than 30 minutes later, right after Elements and I joined. I don't think the Celebloki vote was a very good reason to suddenly end their support and having Celebloki at the bottom of their preliminary reads in 310 feels like a performative justification for voting there rather than an actual read

In both 293 and 377 they made sure to include that they weren't voting for the same reason as the person they were sheeping which feels like scum that might be trying to flaunt that their read is unique and different

I think the questions from Guillotina are like...ok, but nothing scum couldn't come up with in an attempt to seem townie, and I think the interpretation in 374 is really odd and it just feels like unnecessary shade towards Timmer

I have never played with Guillotina and so they are rather difficult to get a grasp on. It could be just a playstyle thing, it could be a scum move. When i am trying to think like scum, i ask myself what could be their motivation. For example - scum!timmer could be trying to go for what he feels like easier wagon which wouldnt attract much attention.
Or scum!Guillotina is trying to sow some discord between townies. Could be Hu Tao their buddy? Cant rule it out

Also it could be just being bad at expressing things.( A stuff i am personally bad at.)
It could be also town!Timmer being paranoid of Hu Tao and town!Guillotina being paranoid of Timmer. Did Gullotina say what they think wbout Hu Tao? I need to look that up.

This post makes me think either you're scum or not reading. I'm going with scum.

Why exactly?

Because if you're talking about guillo, lots of their posts have been about me so for you to say you're trying to find out about if they posted about me after, doesn't add up.

What? Black was talking about Guillo

The point of it was Guillo shading Timmer for suspecting you.

Apparently this is the whole of the interaction within these quotes, maybe it seems smaller since I quoted one post that contains all the replies but I'm going to break this down in notes because I did not understand 560, nor did I understand what Guillo making a lot of posts about Hu Tao had to do with anything, nor did I confirm Hu Tao's allegation that Guillo makes a lot of posts about them.

384 - Black votes Guillo in the post where she puts partner equity between Guillo and I, and cases Guillo. To summarize:

• She says we can be partnered because Guillo supported my wagon and then jumped off 30 minutes later after 2 more players joined the wagon on me, and Black thinks the place Guillo moved his vote to, Celebloki, was not a good vote with a faked justification
• Individually Guillo can be scum because in 2 posts he sheeped another player but always made sure to point out it was "for a different reason" than the person he was sheeping, like he has his own reads and wants everyone to know he is not sheeping.
• Black says Guillo's questions are fine/towny enough but could be faked as scum. I assume by "questions" she means she read Guillo's ISO and that any time he poses a question, her general impression is that it could be faked. Correct me if I'm wrong and if you're reading this
  @Black
  .
• I think this is the point Naerys was replying to - "the interpretation in 374 is really odd and it just feels like unnecessary shade towards Timmer" - going to add 374 to the quotes so I can follow this in preview because I'm struggling here

Note: Guillotina snipped quotes in the original 374 and I've unsnipped them here. I don't think I've made a mistake but let me know if something is misattributed.

Looks like there was a broken tag in 369, what a headache. so Guillo did say " I didn't think it was a serious claim" and Timmer was the one discussing his mafia career above that. "Hu answered by saying true claim" is also Timmer

Why pay mind to a VT claim during RvS with 10 years on?

Because most of my mafia career was on sites where roleclaiming was strictly forbidden and would get you modkilled instantly. So this is my second game with claiming allowed and it's... weird. Especially a VT claim so early. If you are a VT, you've helped the mafia target the power roles. If you are lying, you will destroy your credibility later on. I just don't get it.

I didn't think it was a serious claim tbh.

Hu answered that already by saying that it was a true claim. If it's all a gambit, again how is this helping town?

I will tell you what does not help town, getting fixated on a simple VT claim. In fact I'd be more suspect of someone claiming PR early day 1 than a Vanilla claim.
I suspect Hu for different reasons but the thing you are fixating on is... weird.

Okay I understand 374 now and I'll add that I do agree with Black's interpretation of this post that she made in 384. It is a strange stance for Guillo to take given the way the conversation has gone. Like accept that Timmer comes from a different background where the claim is weird and move on.

@Guillo

- If you think Timmer is fixated on it, stop engaging him on it. Call him out if he keeps bringing it up on his own and you think he's scum for that reason, but when you keep replying about it, of course he's going to keep talking about it. I think beating the dead horse here is just guiding Timmer to take more of the actions that you claim are scummy and then blaming him for it. It does seem shady imo.

moving on.

553/555 - self-explanatory. Hu Tao says Naerys is either scum or not reading, prob scum. Naerys asks why HT thinks that.

558 - Hu Tao says "if you're talking about guillo", (possibly implying HT themself does not know what Naerys is talking about and is proceeding with a scumread before questioning for clarification!) "lots of their posts have been about me so for you to say you're trying to find out about if they posted about me after, doesn't add up."

I'm again going to have to look at more posts (Guillo's ISO up until 558), but my initial reaction to this is I think it's unreasonable of Hu Tao to expect Naerys to be following Guillo-Hu Tao so closely that she would know all about Guillo's read/opinions on Hu Tao

from memory

. This is D1 of a large game and Guillo-Hu Tao are not exactly the only focal point of discussion.

Spoiler: some guillo ISO quotes

I belive Dunn and ssbm's claim. Unless the small chance they are scum together or scum informed of miller's in this game. Either way, I wouldn't want them today at the very least. If there are actual millers, there is likely a way to confirm that somehow regardless.

Hu, if you thought the above, can you clarify why you quoted and vote Naerys here?

For now my first impressions are that dave and both millers could be town.
Still too far from finding a scum, but its a start.

VOTE: Naerys

My preliminary reads:

Town

Black
Kawaii

Mixed Feelings

Kyouko

Scum

Naerys
Hu
Gamma
Celebloki

My preliminary reads:

Town

Black
Kawaii

Mixed Feelings

Kyouko

Scum

Naerys
Hu
Gamma
Celebloki

Potential Pairings

Kyouko/Gamma
Naerys/Hu

VT

I understand why people claim miller early on, but why throw out a VT claim on page 1? I'm coming to this site mostly from a background where claiming was against the rules, so I would love to hear how claiming this helps the town.

How long have you played Mafia?

Off and on for over 10 years, mostly off lately.

Why pay mind to a VT claim during RvS with 10 years on?

Because most of my mafia career was on sites where roleclaiming was strictly forbidden and would get you modkilled instantly. So this is my second game with claiming allowed and it's... weird. Especially a VT claim so early. If you are a VT, you've helped the mafia target the power roles. If you are lying, you will destroy your credibility later on. I just don't get it.

I didn't think it was a serious claim tbh.

Hu answered that already by saying that it was a true claim. If it's all a gambit, again how is this helping town?

I will tell you what does not help town, getting fixated on a simple VT claim. In fact I'd be more suspect of someone claiming PR early day 1 than a Vanilla claim.
I suspect Hu for different reasons but the thing you are fixating on is... weird.

I'm down to pressure there though, just not for the same reasons as yours.

VOTE: Hu

I'm not fixated, though? I mentioned it once, Hu replied, and I literally moved on. The only reason it is still being talked about is you asking me about it even though the issue was already put to bed.

Ok then we good

Black could be town here. Never seen her as scum before but she seems towny

Agreed, Black is obvious town in my opinion. They suspect me based on my playstyle which is what town usually do.

If they townread me right away that'd be a read flag.

VOTE: Andres

This needs to post more content

Good night

My preliminary reads:

Town

Black
Kawaii

Mixed Feelings

Kyouko

Scum

Naerys
Hu
Gamma
Celebloki

Potential Pairings

Kyouko/Gamma
Naerys/Hu

I can't wait to see the reason I'm paired with my scumread

Have you heard of distancing?

Yes but what specifically makes us a pair? What are the reasons.

I belive Dunn and ssbm's claim. Unless the small chance they are scum together or scum informed of miller's in this game. Either way, I wouldn't want them today at the very least. If there are actual millers, there is likely a way to confirm that somehow regardless.

Hu, if you thought the above, can you clarify why you quoted and vote Naerys here?

For now my first impressions are that dave and both millers could be town.
Still too far from finding a scum, but its a start.

VOTE: Naerys

Yes it has more to do that I think the post seems fake to me, rather than the content. But good catch.

This has led me to have that line of thought. To me it is an inconsistency, cause both of you had a similar read but you sussed them for it.

Spoiler: my interpretation of the quotes

304 - questions Hu Tao directly about why they voted Naerys who had the same perspective on miller claims as HT did
310/311 - puts Hu Tao in a reads list as scum in 310, and posits a possible pairing with Naerys in 311. Since these are readslists I feel they equally "engage" with everyone and should not be counted as "about Hu Tao"
322/374 - is Hu Tao-adjacent because Guillo is talking to Timmer about HT's claim - I would also not consider this to be "about Hu Tao" - this is about sorting Timmer imo.
377 - Votes Hu Tao. Imo this is only the second post "about Hu Tao" in the ISO after 304. Note this is ISO#47 so so far 2 of 47 posts have been "about Hu Tao" - Guillo does make a lot of posts but he's not really a shitposter. I would say most if not all of his posts are game-related, without specifically checking.
378 - same as 322/374 - really this is about Timmer and not HT
443 - is the second direct interaction with Hu Tao, the first being 304, and the third post total about Hu Tao. ISO #53.
447 - the Guillo vote moves off of Hu Tao so I'd say Guillo is probably done focusing primarily on Hu Tao at this point
516 - Guillo answers 2 replies that Hu Tao has finally made to previous questions Guillo sent Hu Tao's way. ISO #58.

Guillo also makes 2 of the "wallposts" about associatives and HT is listed once in each. Similar to 310/311, I think these 2 walls are about "everyone" and are not Hu Tao specific. So in total there are 3-4 posts out of 58. 2 questions to Hu Tao, a vote on Hu Tao, and one reply to both of Hu Tao's answers to the original 2 questions.

I find it hard to believe that Hu Tao thinks Guillo's ISO is entirely about them unless Hu Tao is hyper-aware of Guillo's pressure because Hu Tao, as scum, is nervous about town!Guillo catching them here.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Naerys feels like she has a decent chance to be scum here

So yeah after reading closer I don't think Naerys is scummy up to 555. She's towny even.

These reads are so different that I'm having a hard time believing they are real

To me it seems like you were trying to leave room for you to support and eventually join the Naerys wagon but then couldn't justify the read when asked about it, and I think that's more likely to come from scum

VOTE: kyouko

I think you're tunneled, with peace and love.
I think my last 2 posts detail my original impression and how I recognized where it was wrong well enough that it can't be denied they are real thought processes.

Naerys was an "I'll compromise here if I need to but I would prefer one of

my

scumreads davesaz/Celebloki" - Hu Tao is now one of

my

scumreads after a detailed inspection and I'm hoping you'll rejoin me there in flipping scum.
VOTE: Hu Tao

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I don't think Naerys is doing that as much as she did in recent games.

Doing what as much? Not clear what you're replying to

[ssbm_Kyouko]

936 is impressively bulky. I don't think the tl/dr is supported by the body.

Also do you disagree with one or both halves of the tl;dr?

[ssbm_Kyouko]

well you snipped out the context for both reads so of course they look weird when juxtaposed. If you read the context, the read change isn't even weird IMO.

The only thing I snipped out in the first quote was that kyouko looked at Naerys's ISO and scumread her, which makes it even worse. I snipped out the reasoning in the second quote because it wasn't relevant to my point. The reasons felt like an over justification for the read change. I'm not buying it

You snipped this out:

Naerys feels like she has a decent chance to be scum here,

probably higher than Celebloki from an outside POV

Maybe I'm a dummy (okay, I am a dummy but that's unrelated), but i thought this meant that Kyoko was like "I can see the scumread" rather than "oh yeah Naerys is a big scumread of mine"

Kyoko, am I getting it right?

That's the gist of it, yes. When I read Naerys' ISO on my phone yesterday it didn't look too good, but that was at a glance. I did not understand Hu Tao vs. Naerys AT ALL, it took me a literal hour to break down all the context behind that and actually understand the exchange, and for reference I probably looked at Naerys in ISO for 3-5 minutes before saying she has a decent chance to be scum. At that time I did scumread Naerys lightly based on the ISO and could see that anyone else reading the ISO could probably also see a case for scum!Naerys, because it seemed apparent, albeit weak, to me, at a glance.

The point of me saying higher than Celebloki is that I do think Celebloki actually scumslipped, and I understand that most if not everyone else in the game does not agree with me on that, so from outside my own POV, Naerys was more likely than Celebloki to be scum. I feel certain that Celebloki is scum, but without further evidence I know he won't die toDay. If he's town my hope is that one of us is dead or he is mechanically cleared before ELO.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I don't think Naerys is doing that as much as she did in recent games.

Doing what as much? Not clear what you're replying to

Why is it that you town read Naerys for?

I like her thoughts and I feel like she's trying to figure out people's alignments

Okay, noted. So you think she is not being as solve-y as she was in a/some previous game(s).

936 is impressively bulky. I don't think the tl/dr is supported by the body.

Also do you disagree with one or both halves of the tl;dr?

First, to be perfectly clear. I don't think the body of that post supports the tl/dr irrespective of my reads on the players. It seems very much what like one of my old professors called proof by intimidation.
------------------------

I don't see Naerys being towny prior to the wagon on her, and her reaction to the wagon is very different to her reaction from previous games where she was town.

I don't have a strong feeling on Hu Tao.

I understood that your disagreement was with the body supporting the tl;dr, that was clear from the original post. I had intended for my question to reflect that - do you think both halves of the tl;dr are unsupported by the body of the post, or just one?

It feels to me like you are being vague about this. If I'm trying to prove one point or the other, or both, through intimidation, it should be possible to identify what is unsupported and why it is unsupported.

Also the point of that post was for me to continue answering Black about Naerys and the reason it got so long is that it was so convoluted an interaction in the first place that I could not follow it without literally taking notes. It's not really meant to be a towncase on Naerys (though it ended up being one) or a scumcase on Hu Tao. The tl;dr was meant to let everyone who didn't read the whole thing know that "these are my reads now and if you want to know why you should read my big post"

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Feel like Hu Tao might have a decent number of votes but don't have time to VC it rn. Don't think they're close to elimination but they might be around E-4 or E-3

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Off and on for 15 or so years.

So you must know how pointing out my post count looks as a retort? It isn't all about post totals, it's about what you do with the posts you can make. Wasn't it you who Broccoli called out to talk about anything in the game not related to yourself, and here you are still, sorry, being petulant?

The activity page shows how many posts in this game, not on site.
Neither of you are very high activity in the game.

I agree that it's what you do with the posts which matters more. I'd rather have 30 content posts than 30 empty pagetops.

If I could get 30 pagetops I'd be queen of the world

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I feel like
1. If Hu Tao's claim is real, it's not that helpful of a role right now because we're so early in. It would very hard to correctly guess the NK this early in the game, so even if it's real, scum might just leave them be anyways in hopes they'll get mislimmed before scum want to spend a NK on them
2. Could just be a fake claim because they have a useful scum PR
3. Could just be a fake claim from a goon to try to avoid dying/get value before dying

I feel like if we ignore the claim and lim Hu Tao anyways we would gain a lot more than we stand to lose if they are town. Like risk-reward is in favor of limming Hu Tao.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I feel like
1. If Hu Tao's claim is real, it's not that helpful of a role right now because we're so early in. It would very hard to correctly guess the NK this early in the game, so even if it's real, scum might just leave them be anyways in hopes they'll get mislimmed before scum want to spend a NK on them
2. Could just be a fake claim because they have a useful scum PR
3. Could just be a fake claim from a goon to try to avoid dying/get value before dying

I feel like if we ignore the claim and lim Hu Tao anyways we would gain a lot more than we stand to lose if they are town. Like risk-reward is in favor of limming Hu Tao.

So you are in favour of limming a claimed Doctor?

yep. Or Celebloki?

I don't believe the claim at all. I also don't believe for a second that Hu Tao thought she was actually hammered so the claim itself was no way a twilight-esque spew. It was a calculated gambit.

I think Hu Tao was so obviously

not

hammered it's hard to believe they were not joking there? At least that was my impression. I don't think it was meant to be taken seriously

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Reminder for me to get back to dave about facts > conclusions when I'm back on PC tomorrow

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I am okay with myself gone...

Your predecessor claimed Miller btw, can you confirm?

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I'm not but the votes will probably be telling and as a claimed Miller it might be better that I die sooner rather than later.

I don't think there's anything wrong with point #1 above. 17 players, 4 scum, leaves 12 targets for the NK after a mislim, 13 if we hit scum.

That's about a 9% chance of blocking the kill if the doc is unclaimed and doesnt get killed. This is negligible and if I were scum.i.would not be killing Hu Tao until her chances improved or until I was worried they would start blocking kills on the people I actually want to kill.

N2 after losing another town to a mislim that is an 11% chance of stopping the kill. N3 continues as 1/7 which is maybe 13.5% (estimate). By N4 there is a 20% chance, assuming mislims all along the way. This is the earliest I would ever consider shooting Hu Tao as scum as long as Hu Tao remains suspected

[ssbm_Kyouko]

If you want to know why people scumread her then you can check who's voting for her and look through their ISO's. I looked through yours and saw a lot of subtle defending of her slot but no real read other than she feels like she did in a previous game you played, which is pretty weak

I'm not saying it like I haven't read people's posts, I have read people's posts and that's why I'm so confused on why people are wolfreading them because I do not see a lot of reasoning to begin wit

h. That's the problem. Not even something like gut pings. It just seems like people are following and that's fine if it is but can we like, say that's what it is!

I feel like I've pretty actively said I'm townreading the slot more than others due to my point system and while it may seem like a weak reason I just feel like they're town and the way people have played around the slot doesn't really make me change that so I'm sitting here asking for people to help me see it ya know?

This is like the worst thing you could have said around me, seems that you just told on yourself

VOTE: Kyouko
I think people are right about Kyouko and Key being scum together

This I'm pretty sure is scum!Gamma behavior, the overplayed righteousness. Gamma does have real righteous reactions but this is not one of them

[ssbm_Kyouko]

That being "this is like the worst thing..." in bold

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I replaced into Toriel's patience and read the whole game, Keyleth feels about the same from TP where she was town

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Wait, three miller claims so far? I thought there were only two did I miss one?

Uninformed

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I believe Hu Tao's claim and I think the people voting for her should probably find something else to do today

I believe in the standard concept that if someone claims a PR, especially a common one, and no one counterclaims them, that you don't lim then.

Which brings me to this:

I feel like
1. If Hu Tao's claim is real, it's not that helpful of a role right now because we're so early in. It would very hard to correctly guess the NK this early in the game, so even if it's real, scum might just leave them be anyways in hopes they'll get mislimmed before scum want to spend a NK on them
2. Could just be a fake claim because they have a useful scum PR
3. Could just be a fake claim from a goon to try to avoid dying/get value before dying

I feel like if we ignore the claim and lim Hu Tao anyways we would gain a lot more than we stand to lose if they are town. Like risk-reward is in favor of limming Hu Tao.

I've never seen a post like this.

#1 contains both the nugget that a Town Doctor isn't important and suggests that it would be ok to mislim them because hey mafia would likely let them live to get mislimmed later. How is that town?

This on the surface feels likely to be coming from town btw, just because I disagree with the rebuttal of point 1 does not mean I think Timmer is scummy

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I believe Hu Tao's claim and I think the people voting for her should probably find something else to do today

I believe in the standard concept that if someone claims a PR, especially a common one, and no one counterclaims them, that you don't lim then.

Which brings me to this:

I feel like
1. If Hu Tao's claim is real, it's not that helpful of a role right now because we're so early in. It would very hard to correctly guess the NK this early in the game, so even if it's real, scum might just leave them be anyways in hopes they'll get mislimmed before scum want to spend a NK on them
2. Could just be a fake claim because they have a useful scum PR
3. Could just be a fake claim from a goon to try to avoid dying/get value before dying

I feel like if we ignore the claim and lim Hu Tao anyways we would gain a lot more than we stand to lose if they are town. Like risk-reward is in favor of limming Hu Tao.

I've never seen a post like this.

#1 contains both the nugget that a Town Doctor isn't important and suggests that it would be ok to mislim them because hey mafia would likely let them live to get mislimmed later. How is that town?

Yah I don't like the post either, it is a very suboptimal proposal and pretty much one at a level of openwolfing and agenda driven.

VOTE: Kyouko

This is maybe scummy, it's too reductive for Guillo I think. He's not this simple and I think he sees an easy target.

By reductive I mean, he's just sheeping on Timmer's opinion and throwing out a couple of buzzwords to back it up. I think looking at the whole of my play it should be clear what my alignment is, and I think Guillo is conveniently overlooking that. I know he's paying attention, at least he should be with his activity level.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I'm willing to give Gob a "get out of the joke claim free" card for an answer soon as to whether agreeing with Kyouko about the miller claim was a joke.

VOTE: Kyouko
If a pivot is required, better it's done promptly. Time's ticking.

We all know how I feel about Dave but I will say the vote itself could be coming from town here. We don't want no lim after all. Easy to fake as scum though.

My reasons to SR dave are independent of this vote

[ssbm_Kyouko]

VOTE: kyouko

NAI

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Finally, Black is acting like town that just caught scum so I'm still getting town vibes there

[ssbm_Kyouko]

kyouko have you completed any scum games on the site and if so can you link a couple of them?

Oh boy howdy do i

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Spoiler: My completed games

Complete:
01. Mini Normal 1850 - VT - Eliminated Day 1 - Town Win
02. Newbie 1752: Wave - Replaced Town JK - Killed N4 - Town Loss
03. Open 659: Jungle Republic - Vanilla Townie - NKed Night 1 - Town Loss
04. Birds of Paradise - Goon - Flawless Mafia Win
05. Newbie 1764: Wind - Replaced Goon - Flawless Mafia Win
06. Mini Normal 1857 - VT - Eliminated D5 LimLo - Town Loss
07. Open 660: White Flag - VT - Eliminated D4 - Town Loss
08. Mini 1860 - Town 1-Shot Commuter - Vigged Night 2 - Town Win
09. Micro 661: Scumteam unpick - Replaced VT - Eliminated D1 - Town Win
10. Newbie 1766 - VT - Endgamed - Town Loss
11. Open 663: Stack the Deck - VT - Killed Night 1 - Town Win
12. Large Normal 200 - VT - Vigged N2 - Town Win
13. Large Normal 199: L'Hôtel Pleuvoir - VT - Vigged N3 - Town Loss
XX. Mini Normal 1874 - VT (replaced out D1, overgamed) - No Contest
14. Mini Normal 1865 - VT - Endgamed - Town Loss
15. Code Geass - Shinichiro Tamaki (Town) - Venged D1 - Town Win
16. Timeshift Mafia III - VT - Eliminated D2 - Town Win
17. Open 668 - Diffusion of Power - Mafia Goon - Scum Loss
18. Civilization Mafia - Barbarian (Mafia) - Scum Win
19. Elemental Trinity (Hydra with Alisae) - Usurper (Mafia) - Scum Win
//Hiatus
20. Mini Normal 2053 - Mafia Goon - Scum Loss
21. Mini Normal 2057 - Town Mason (Replaced Out mid-way) - Town Win
//Hiatus
22. Mini Normal 2213 - VT - Town Loss
23. Mini Normal 2216 - VT - Town Loss
24. Mini Theme 2217: Owners Market Blitz - VT (elected MO) - Survived - Town Win
25. Mini Normal 2218 - Mafia Odd Night Strongman - Mafia Loss
26. Large Normal 233 - Mafia Goon - Mafia Loss
27. Open 820: The Siege of Aurelia - VT turned IC/Stump - Lost at Gate - Town Win
28. Mini Theme 2225: Chrono Trigger Chronicles - VT - Eliminated D1 - Town Win
29. Mini Normal 2223 - VT - Survived - Town Win
30. Mini Theme 3001: Radio Buzz - Insurgent (VT) - Eliminated D4 - Town Win
31. Mini Theme xxxx: 3d20 - Town Even-Night Tracker - Eliminated D3 - Town Loss
32. Open 827: Dead Silence III - Town Mason - Daykilled - Town Win
33. Mini Normal 2232 - VT - Killed N2 - Town Loss
34. Open 828: The Brethren Coalition - Vanilla Town - Survived - Town Win (via Coalition lock)
35. Large Normal 236 - Mafia 1-Shot Loud Visitor - Eliminated D1 - Mafia Loss
36. Mini Theme 2228: Isekai uPick - Akatsuki (Town Tracker/Restricted Watcher) - Survived - Town Win
37. Mini Normal 2238: (Modded by Dwlee99) - VT - Survived - Town Win
38. Mini Theme 2240: SCP uPick - Researcher (Town) Panacea - NKed Night 2 - Town Loss
39. Mini Theme 2231: Radio Buzz - Insurgent (VT) - Self-Hammered D4 - Town Win
40. Mini Theme 2244: 3d20 uRoll - (19, 13, 10) Cult Leader Complex Mason Finder - Killed N1 - Cult Loss
41. Mini Normal 2239: AQAtPimP - Town 2-Shot JOAT - Killed N4 - Town Loss (Vigged N_M and blocked a NK with my JOAT powers)
42. Manatee's Pokemon Large Theme - Town Azurill - Killed N1 - Town Loss
43. Large 237 - Mafia Doctor - Eliminated D1 - Mafia Loss
44. Mini 2247: Mountain Dew Mafia - Replaced Livewire (VT) - Survived - Town Win
45. Newbie 2083 - VT (Replaced Out siteflake?) - Eliminated D2 - Town Loss
46. Open 835: Songs About Ronald Reagan - VT (Replaced Out D2 Siteflake) - Killed N4 - Town Win
//Hiatus
47. Open 893: 9:12 - Vanilla Townie - Survived - Town Win
48. Large Theme: Toriel's Patience - replaced in Town - NKed Night 2 - Town Win

I've never played offsite

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I am quite bad at being scum because I am quite obvious at being town. When I was new and bad at both alignments I won more scumgames

[ssbm_Kyouko]

viewtopic.php?t=88192
viewtopic.php?t=87720

My 2 most recent scumgames were both larges where I got D1 eliminated, enjoy the read

[ssbm_Kyouko]

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Keyleth is she/her btw

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Also in one of those scum games when the wagon of the day claimed PR (they claimed JK) I just unvoted right away because that's what you're expected to do and I didnt want to get the smoke

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Just my reaction to that post when trying to figure out where scum might be on my wagon. I think otherwise I've been leaning town on Gamma, especially after her and BQ2 sort of briefly beefed.

I remember seeing one reaction recently (after BQ beef) where she was more tame than I expected her to be, which pinged me a little. If I'm going to be sheeped today I would much prefer it be on Celebloki, Dave, or Hu Tao because I feel more.confident in those reads. I think that I think I am better than I actually am at reading Gamma, if that makes sense

breefed if you will

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I have a meeting soon but afterward I want to check on Gamma's other games to verify if my feeling about the righteousness here is on point.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I believe Hu Tao's claim and I think the people voting for her should probably find something else to do today

I believe in the standard concept that if someone claims a PR, especially a common one, and no one counterclaims them, that you don't lim then.

Which brings me to this:

I feel like
1. If Hu Tao's claim is real, it's not that helpful of a role right now because we're so early in. It would very hard to correctly guess the NK this early in the game, so even if it's real, scum might just leave them be anyways in hopes they'll get mislimmed before scum want to spend a NK on them
2. Could just be a fake claim because they have a useful scum PR
3. Could just be a fake claim from a goon to try to avoid dying/get value before dying

I feel like if we ignore the claim and lim Hu Tao anyways we would gain a lot more than we stand to lose if they are town. Like risk-reward is in favor of limming Hu Tao.

I've never seen a post like this.

#1 contains both the nugget that a Town Doctor isn't important and suggests that it would be ok to mislim them because hey mafia would likely let them live to get mislimmed later. How is that town?

Yah I don't like the post either, it is a very suboptimal proposal and pretty much one at a level of openwolfing and agenda driven.

VOTE: Kyouko

This is maybe scummy, it's too reductive for Guillo I think. He's not this simple and I think he sees an easy target.

By reductive I mean, he's just sheeping on Timmer's opinion and throwing out a couple of buzzwords to back it up. I think looking at the whole of my play it should be clear what my alignment is, and I think Guillo is conveniently overlooking that. I know he's paying attention, at least he should be with his activity level.

Nope, when you posted that I felt a stomachache because you were in my townreads and I dont expect my townreads to say that is optimal to still

lim

a claimed doctor instead of letting it resolve at night. That is why I posted that we should do just that, to overrule you and take away from you any hope of yeeting Hu Tao there and then I waited and revisited an old hunch i had about you and the i voted you cause I really hated your post.

Out of game: We don't use the L-word on site anymore, edited in the quote

What's the old hunch you had on me that you revisited? Do you disagree with my assessment of a doctor's effectiveness in a 16, 14, 12-player Night phase assuming 4 scum alive (which is when the doctor would be most effective at blocking a kill, the denominator increases if we hit scum before one of the nights).

Speaking to everyone, not just Guillotina here - I think it is

convenient

, not

optimal

, to not lim Hu Tao here, because people are trained to let PR claims live. I think the reflex is to let them live, but if you actually think about it is easy to see that a doctor is not very useful for town here. We haven't even considered yet Hu Tao could just be a mafia doctor here, and they would be very useful to scum if there are any vigilantes about.

I'm reminded of mafia doctors after seeing I was one in one of the games I linked

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Kyouko if Hu Tao is actually the doctor then scum will want to either NK her or let her move for the wifom. If they let her live then it could potentially be a huge swing for the town if she blocks a kill later in the game. Why is it not optimal to just leave her alone until much closer to ELO?

because scum stand to gain more from scum!Hu Tao living than town stands to lose from town!Hu Tao dying. Blocking one kill in an odd-numbers game does not give us an extra lim. Hu Tao will have to block 2 kills to do that. I would rather get rid of a scumread that might be mechanically helpful than have them around, uncleared, and without providing any clears, as we approach or even enter ELO/MELO.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

If I were scum I would not be shooting at Hu Tao until at least N4 if not later depending on how the game goes. Mechanically she is about as powerful as a VT until then

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Looking at Gamma ego now

[ssbm_Kyouko]

guess I should be voting elsewhere given deadline is in about 32 hours. Thought we had a little longer - still looking at Gamma games in the meantime
VOTE: Celebloki

[ssbm_Kyouko]

This is from memory so especially for unstyled players I might be missing something. Excuse my word vomit. This is in playerlist order, and is not an indicator of the relative strength of any of my reads within the tiers except where it is noted specifically.

Bold

means I want that player dead today if I can have my way, would prefer to wagon here.
no style means the player is in my D1 POE, I'll join a wagon on any of these players unless I see a good reason not to

strike

means I will not vote that player unless it is required to get a lim before deadline"

• Gamma Emerald (in the process of reading her past games but I do feel like the righteousness is fake here. So far I've only read 2 games' ISOs. One had no righteousness as town, and the other had righteousness that I identified correctly as genuine and she was town in that game. I'm reading the ISOs and making assessments before checking her alignment to prevent biasing myself because I think I could be overconfident here)
  
• Random Nurse (got townvibes from him but he's been gone a while now and the vibes are not strong enough to clear him of POE. he, like Timmer, is "just under" my POE line)
  
• Celebloki
  (I think he scumslipped, nobody agrees)
  
• Naerys
  (Think she is hard to process because of the wording of her posts but detailed reading indicates towniness to me - see my tl;dr'ed post for full details)
  
• davesaz
  (see my ISO for the original issues - iirc it was mostly that his posting felt very focused on an easy-to-take stance on Keyleth's playstyle. More recently I feel he's undermining both my TR on Naerys and my SR on Hu Tao and there's not much time left in the Day to resolve that toDay.)
  
• Hu Tao
  (see my tl;dr post + I don't believe the claim + risk/reward of limming them is favorable imo + I'm also of the opinion people don't care about the math and want to believe a doctor will save the game somehow when realistically speaking this is not going to happen)
  
• Broccoli Quest 2 (Not sure why but I vaguely feel like
  striking
  BQ2. Like I can't remember anything specific like I do for most other players, except that early on I was wary to TR them and more recently I've felt generally better about their posts.)
  
• Guillotina (his vote on my wagon just now was stinky but otherwise I think he's contributing, though I do think Black's point that he keeps repeating he "has his own reasons" to scumread someone whenever he sheeps somewhere is scum-indicative and almost pushes Guillo into the
  bold
  for me)
  
• gob, replaced Cat Scratch Fever
  
• Keyleth (I'm reminded of Toriel's Patience but her playstyle feels like it would be easy to fake so I'm not hard committed to any TR here)
  
• Dunnstral
  (Miller claim)
  
• KawaiiKame
  (Early TR from direct interactions)
  
• TimmerRC
  (vote on me seems town-motivated, Timmer's "just over" the POE line for me)
  
• Elements
  
• Andresvmb
  
• Black
  (Really thinks she caught scum between me and Keyleth and also felt pretty genuine when she was scumreading me and guillo as partners)

[ssbm_Kyouko]

so far I'm 2 for 2 at identifying the righteousness as town when it is town, yet to find a scumgame with righteousness

[ssbm_Kyouko]

so far I'm 2 for 2 at identifying the righteousness as town when it is town, yet to find a scumgame with righteousness

please post the links of all game’s you’re searching within

Notes so far:
micro 1094 - town - no righteousness
2318 - town - when she gets in it with Roden over some modifier or something and requotes her signature to Roden a couple of times, and other posts around it, it's clear to me Gamma is town
mini 2315 - town righteousness in smiting that one person who allegedly answered questions quoting buddies from their PT, not scrolling back up to see who it was
defcon - I think this is town but am a little sus (harder to say because I think Gamma and Marci are actually friends and if anything righteousness here is NAI) - when seeing reaction to scum!Marci I think Gamma is town

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I give myself half a point for correctly reading you in defcon because I had misgivings until seeing your reaction to marci's flip

[ssbm_Kyouko]

STDBINSBICACOT - no righteousness, but scum anyways
guns and roses - no righteousness
Mafia have a Cop - FL says Gamma is "warlocking" and Gamma tells him to DIE - ambiguous from the original post but feels town in the followup convo with FL - 1708 very probably town. The way it ends off has me leaning scum (want to protect X, fine! *vote flavor*). committing to scum. but 1808 is legit again. Final verdict town

^ read Gamma right in STDBINSBICACOT without the righteousness tell, did not guess in G&R, Mafia have a cop was tricky but I got there in the end

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Dunn didn't claim, he said "what if"

relax

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I just read in Mafia have a Cop that Gamma hasn't randed scum in like a year so I'm going to skip back a while in her ego because reading that sullies this. So far I would say though I'd put

Gamma

in bold now, as a preferred elimination

[ssbm_Kyouko]

gonna break briefly from reading Gamma ego because I see Guillo responded

[ssbm_Kyouko]

so far I'm 2 for 2 at identifying the righteousness as town when it is town, yet to find a scumgame with righteousness

What is this referring to? I don't want to have to find it.

See the spoiler for the context as to why I'm doing this at all:

Spoiler:

If you want to know why people scumread her then you can check who's voting for her and look through their ISO's. I looked through yours and saw a lot of subtle defending of her slot but no real read other than she feels like she did in a previous game you played, which is pretty weak

I'm not saying it like I haven't read people's posts, I have read people's posts and that's why I'm so confused on why people are wolfreading them because I do not see a lot of reasoning to begin wit

h. That's the problem. Not even something like gut pings. It just seems like people are following and that's fine if it is but can we like, say that's what it is!

I feel like I've pretty actively said I'm townreading the slot more than others due to my point system and while it may seem like a weak reason I just feel like they're town and the way people have played around the slot doesn't really make me change that so I'm sitting here asking for people to help me see it ya know?

This is like the worst thing you could have said around me, seems that you just told on yourself

VOTE: Kyouko
I think people are right about Kyouko and Key being scum together

This I'm pretty sure is scum!Gamma behavior, the overplayed righteousness. Gamma does have real righteous reactions but this is not one of them

I believe that Gamma has a tendency to get a really "righteous"/"indignant" energy in her posting from time to time. It happens as both town and scum, but when it comes from scum!Gamma I think it is possible to spot that the energy is not at 100% - not to say that it isn't real because I think this comes from Gamma as a person every time and I don't think she fakes the energy as scum, it just naturally comes out differently when she is scum. That's my theory at least, maybe it is just faked when it's scum. If we remember we can talk about that in postgame.

I'm reading Gamma's ISOs in past games to look for this energy and analyze it without knowing her alignment first to test how accurately I am identifying when the energy is real. So far I have not misidentified the town energy as scum energy, but have not read a game where she is scum yet.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Strange, the second i call Dunnstral scum he calls two random posts of mine weird.

Dunn's last post before you said that was quoting a post that comes before your first post in the game

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Dunn didn't claim, he said "what if"

relax

Also what is this post? He's clearly softing the claim or why else would he bring it up?

I am like 99% sure Dunn would make that post as a plain old "Town Miller" with no other modifiers. He's very particular with words.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Not saying he is not a bodyguard, I'm saying I think he would make that post whether he was a Miller or a Miller Bodyguard

[ssbm_Kyouko]

gonna break briefly from reading Gamma ego because I see Guillo responded

I'm here and haven't found the Guillo response wtf happened

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Alright I see things are getting confusing now and I still don't like the direction things are going today and we are running out of time. And Celebloki is about to claim. I attempted to roleswap with Celebloki's soft claim.

i saw this

[ssbm_Kyouko]

VOTE: Gamma
I think I've heard Keyleth's name thrown around, willing to go there as well

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I'm going to get a current VC going

[ssbm_Kyouko]

unofficial vc

Hu Tao

: Broccoli Quest 2, Celebloki, Dunnstral

Celebloki

: Elements

KawaiiKame

: Andresvmb

ssbm_Kyouko

: TimmerRC, gob, davesaz, Naerys

Keyleth

: Black, Hu Tao

Gamma Emerald

: ssbm_Kyouko

gob

: Guillotina

TimmerRC

: Gamma

Not Voting

: KawaiiKame, Random Nurse, Keyleth

With 17 alive it takes 9 to eject a player from the Game.

Deadline is (expired on 2023-12-07 23:00:00).

I think this is current - I count 17 players voting at least

[ssbm_Kyouko]

black play here feels very analytical and logical,

it's hard for me to wrap a read on that given I'm mostly the other way.

Not that I haven't run into people like this but it's a 50/50 most of the time.

Do you think the plan is scummy or are there other reasons you SR BQ?

I just typically scumread plans like this. It always reads as an attempt to get a bunch of information out on the table in order to make the optimal NK's and night targets. I think it could come from town though so it's just meh

You said the plan was "interesting" ...what does that mean? Do you think it's scummy or nah?

I don’t think it’s scummy in isolation; with additional context it could be. But in this instance I think it’s a town move.

Really? I've seen that plan executed by wolves before, at least if you put the plan into action given you're asking for support on a wagon and who are the top towns. I think it's a net positive for wolves, while for town it depends on the first hit. So in isolation you can see how the post is sort of wolfy.

However, with the added context with how Broccoli is playing I'm more inclined to believe it's in good faith. Maybe I wouldn't feel this way if I wasn't nodding along with their previous posts but yeah.

Idk, this kinda feels analytical and logical to me

actually same reaction get out of my head charles

I was ctrl+F'ing my ISO for Gamma to see if past me had any insightful commentary on her alignment and saw this. I also saw my intial gripes with Dave were for shading Keyleth without pressuring there and I'd be happy to see Keyleth flip scum just to be able to push that dave was distancing. Would like to see dave put his money where his mouth is (was?) and join this

VOTE: Keyleth

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I think both dave and Gamma make sense as partners to Keyleth

[ssbm_Kyouko]

My preference is Gamma > dave >= Keyleth - I think the wagon on me and the ensuing scramble helped clarify things.

@Guillo are you around?

[ssbm_Kyouko]

gonna break briefly from reading Gamma ego because I see Guillo responded

I'm here and haven't found the Guillo response wtf happened

Response to what?

Spoiler: 1211

I believe Hu Tao's claim and I think the people voting for her should probably find something else to do today

I believe in the standard concept that if someone claims a PR, especially a common one, and no one counterclaims them, that you don't lim then.

Which brings me to this:

I feel like
1. If Hu Tao's claim is real, it's not that helpful of a role right now because we're so early in. It would very hard to correctly guess the NK this early in the game, so even if it's real, scum might just leave them be anyways in hopes they'll get mislimmed before scum want to spend a NK on them
2. Could just be a fake claim because they have a useful scum PR
3. Could just be a fake claim from a goon to try to avoid dying/get value before dying

I feel like if we ignore the claim and lim Hu Tao anyways we would gain a lot more than we stand to lose if they are town. Like risk-reward is in favor of limming Hu Tao.

I've never seen a post like this.

#1 contains both the nugget that a Town Doctor isn't important and suggests that it would be ok to mislim them because hey mafia would likely let them live to get mislimmed later. How is that town?

Yah I don't like the post either, it is a very suboptimal proposal and pretty much one at a level of openwolfing and agenda driven.

VOTE: Kyouko

This is maybe scummy, it's too reductive for Guillo I think. He's not this simple and I think he sees an easy target.

By reductive I mean, he's just sheeping on Timmer's opinion and throwing out a couple of buzzwords to back it up. I think looking at the whole of my play it should be clear what my alignment is, and I think Guillo is conveniently overlooking that. I know he's paying attention, at least he should be with his activity level.

Nope, when you posted that I felt a stomachache because you were in my townreads and I dont expect my townreads to say that is optimal to still

lim

a claimed doctor instead of letting it resolve at night. That is why I posted that we should do just that, to overrule you and take away from you any hope of yeeting Hu Tao there and then I waited and revisited an old hunch i had about you and the i voted you cause I really hated your post.

Out of game: We don't use the L-word on site anymore, edited in the quote

What's the old hunch you had on me that you revisited? Do you disagree with my assessment of a doctor's effectiveness in a 16, 14, 12-player Night phase assuming 4 scum alive (which is when the doctor would be most effective at blocking a kill, the denominator increases if we hit scum before one of the nights).

Speaking to everyone, not just Guillotina here - I think it is

convenient

, not

optimal

, to not lim Hu Tao here, because people are trained to let PR claims live. I think the reflex is to let them live, but if you actually think about it is easy to see that a doctor is not very useful for town here. We haven't even considered yet Hu Tao could just be a mafia doctor here, and they would be very useful to scum if there are any vigilantes about.

I'm reminded of mafia doctors after seeing I was one in one of the games I linked

Both of the bolded questions. I thought I saw Hu Tao quoted a post where you responded to this but it seems I was mistaken about what was inside of the post Hu Tao quoted - it looked like a response to 1211 but it seems that it wasn't

[ssbm_Kyouko]

so far I'm 2 for 2 at identifying the righteousness as town when it is town, yet to find a scumgame with righteousness

please post the links of all game’s you’re searching within

Notes so far:
micro 1094 - town - no righteousness
2318 - town - when she gets in it with Roden over some modifier or something and requotes her signature to Roden a couple of times, and other posts around it, it's clear to me Gamma is town
mini 2315 - town righteousness in smiting that one person who allegedly answered questions quoting buddies from their PT, not scrolling back up to see who it was
defcon - I think this is town but am a little sus (harder to say because I think Gamma and Marci are actually friends and if anything righteousness here is NAI) - when seeing reaction to scum!Marci I think Gamma is town

You do realize I have barely rolled scum recently, right? So if you’re just looking at games this past year, you’re gonna have a horrendously cherry-picked sample

I find it hard to believe you would find a chronologically ordered metadive to be "cherry-picked" - that is an unusual choice of words because it implies I selected the games myself, especially after this:

I have autism so being vague will cause me headaches. Please be more exact with your wording.

Holding this post for after you catch-up to Mafia have a Cop to see if you walk-back the allegation that I'm cherry-picking.
Looks like you didn't

[ssbm_Kyouko]

mini 2315 - town righteousness in smiting that one person who allegedly answered questions quoting buddies from their PT, not scrolling back up to see who it was

Please go into this one more

will do this now, that's what I wrote on my notes - you got smitey on them earlyish in the ISO and I was like yeah thats probably town, but I kept reading to see if there was more. I got like 3/4 of the way down the page and didn't see it continuing but I wasn't paying attention to names, so I wrote that in my notes and then checked your alignment

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Actually can't do it now now, time to pick my kid up. Can do it on my phone though I think

[ssbm_Kyouko]

-Snip-

I misremembered having mentioned it in a game with you previously
I didn’t mean it that you intentionally cherry-picked as part of an agenda, I just meant a sample of only more recent games was a bad selection and I’m not the best with words

Like you thought you

had

mentioned it to me before that you haven't rolled scum in like a year?

I should have time to continue looking tomorrow before deadline, I would like to find the game without a link so I don't know what I'm looking for. If the wagon swaps from Keyleth to you before deadline I'll just need a link/game name anyways though. Going to look at 1315 on my phone now

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Oh 2315

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Like start reading at 731. The person you go righteous on is "A Frayed Knot"
Mini 2315 Gamma ISO: viewtopic.php?sid=&f=23&t=91827&user_select%5B%5D=28404
posts 731, 732, 744, 747. I've skimmed down to 1482 now and I definitely stopped earlier than this earlier on my PC

[ssbm_Kyouko]

-Snip-

I misremembered having mentioned it in a game with you previously
I didn’t mean it that you intentionally cherry-picked as part of an agenda, I just meant a sample of only more recent games was a bad selection and I’m not the best with words

Like you thought you

had

mentioned it to me before that you haven't rolled scum in like a year?

I should have time to continue looking tomorrow before deadline, I would like to find the game without a link so I don't know what I'm looking for. If the wagon swaps from Keyleth to you before deadline I'll just need a link/game name anyways though. Going to look at 1315 on my phone now

I didn’t post a link, I just gave a timeframe
If that’s too much help then I don’t know how the fuck I can please you here

Yeah I know, what I'm trying to say is, I don't have time to look at more games right now, I'll look at that timeframe tomorrow morning, which will be before deadline. I also want to find it without a link, I would prefer that, but I'm saying that if the wagon on you ends up going off before tomorrow morning, I would rather just have the link. Because if the link will make me rethink your scum/townrange I will want as much time as possible to wagon elsewhere if my read on you shifts.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Still I think Keyleth, not you, is in immediate danger, and resolving this before deadline won't be necessary (I will still be trying to though). I also think it's unlikely I die overNight

[ssbm_Kyouko]

No one is even voting for Gamma iirc yet she thinks this is a bad situation?

I don't think that's what she means

[ssbm_Kyouko]

My preference is Gamma > dave >= Keyleth - I think the wagon on me and the ensuing scramble helped clarify things.

@Guillo are you around?

I am now, for a limited time, what's up?

1357

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Starting Gamma's games again at hanahaki disease on my phone, didn't see the righteousness, except maybe with P_P, but it felt flat. Also felt like the justification for acting like N_M was not real and that turned out to be the case

UNVOTE:

Probably coming to Gamma but going to continue my reading

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I read open827 even though I played in it because all I remember from that game is Almost50 slaughtered the masons and I was one of them - didnt find righteousness

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Open 825 (nice number btw) I can see town rage for town rage when House discusses an ongoing game with Gamma and then reported her for discussing ongoing games and then publicly announced he reported her in the game thread.

That guy is banned right? Yikes

[ssbm_Kyouko]

why is 825 a nice number?

800

825

[ssbm_Kyouko]

leaning Gamma currently. I have the same feeling, that Key might flip town, from her most recent posting. Also remembering that when I asked gob to confirm his predecessor's non-existent miller claim, Keyleth expressed confusion. I think if she's informed she sees what I'm doing. At the same time I feel like earlier there were conflicting statements about not using logic/analysis followed by an analytical post. When called out Keyleth thereafter fell back to her "normal" posting. I will come back to Keyleth if we need to but I'd probably rather lim a lurker than Keyleth

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Little busy with work to continue reading Gamma's games now but should be able to get back to it soon

[ssbm_Kyouko]

If you want to know why people scumread her then you can check who's voting for her and look through their ISO's. I looked through yours and saw a lot of subtle defending of her slot but no real read other than she feels like she did in a previous game you played, which is pretty weak

I'm not saying it like I haven't read people's posts, I have read people's posts and that's why I'm so confused on why people are wolfreading them because I do not see a lot of reasoning to begin wit

h. That's the problem. Not even something like gut pings. It just seems like people are following and that's fine if it is but can we like, say that's what it is!

I feel like I've pretty actively said I'm townreading the slot more than others due to my point system and while it may seem like a weak reason I just feel like they're town and the way people have played around the slot doesn't really make me change that so I'm sitting here asking for people to help me see it ya know?

This is like the worst thing you could have said around me, seems that you just told on yourself
VOTE: Kyouko
I think people are right about Kyouko and Key being scum together

This pinged me so hard and I just realized why, I've seen this before and I was slow to identify it then because I was tunneled during that game. I've caught scum!Gamma for this exact post before

viewtopic.php?p=12856649#p12856649

Have I actually caught 2 scum? That would be amazing. But it’s so freaking obvious that scum was trying to set us up that either Kyuku is the worst scumhunter in mafia history or he actually is scum. Rn, I’m leaning to yes.

You know what, this got me thinking and I have 0 of the good vibes I got from kyouko in mini 2213 rn
VOTE: ssbm_kyouko
I feel like a bastard for this but it’s making enough sense and S&M has earned my trust

[ssbm_Kyouko]

VOTE: Gamma

[ssbm_Kyouko]

In both posts there is the "not full energy"/"fake" part of the post (Gamma not sure if you're entirely faking these reactions as scum or if you just can't commit all the way due to conscience-related reasons, but it's discernable to me).

Fake (This Game): "This is like the worst thing you could have said around me, seems that you just told on yourself" (this game)
Fake (Owner's Market Blitz): "You know what, this got me thinking and I have 0 of the good vibes I got from kyouko in mini 2213 rn" and "I feel like a bastard for this"

Also in both posts the vote is sandwiched between the fake one-liner and the "sheeping" part of the vote:

Sheep (This Game): "I think people are right about Kyouko and Key being scum together"
Sheep (Owner's Market Blitz): "but it’s making enough sense and S&M has earned my trust"

[ssbm_Kyouko]

In terms of the tell I've been describing though it would be more comparing "I feel like a bastard for this" and "This is like the worst thing you could have said around me, seems that you just told on yourself". During Owner's Market Blitz, I knew Gamma had to be lying about not getting the same vibes as in 2213 as I was pretty obviously town in both games, and back then we were good at finding each other as town (I think we probably still are but I only recently came back to the site so time will tell)

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Are you going to continue or was this all under a false pretense?

You haven’t reached the game I had in mind

I'm going to continue, I just remembered OMB and out of curiosity went to look at it and once I found the vote in OMB it definitely pushed me over the line

I assume if I continue this direction I'll find it since I've been posting what games I've been reading this morning. Going to pop out for a bit since I see Guillo is bringing up the game and I haven't opened the spoiler yet

[ssbm_Kyouko]

In terms of the tell I've been describing though it would be more comparing "I feel like a bastard for this" and "This is like the worst thing you could have said around me, seems that you just told on yourself". During Owner's Market Blitz, I knew Gamma had to be lying about not getting the same vibes as in 2213 as I was pretty obviously town in both games, and back then we were good at finding each other as town (I think we probably still are but I only recently came back to the site so time will tell)

In your opinion, what is the scummiest thing Gamma has done in THIS game?

Her most recent vote on me - you'll have to trust I'm identifying it correctly if you're not seeing that for yourself after reading what I've posted about it

[ssbm_Kyouko]

2235 gensokyo: I saw little bit of flair from Gamma toward the end, vehemently defending Yukari who had claimed doctor, somewhere toward ELO - not the tell I was looking for, but I still saw town when she was town

[ssbm_Kyouko]

In terms of the tell I've been describing though it would be more comparing "I feel like a bastard for this" and "This is like the worst thing you could have said around me, seems that you just told on yourself". During Owner's Market Blitz, I knew Gamma had to be lying about not getting the same vibes as in 2213 as I was pretty obviously town in both games, and back then we were good at finding each other as town (I think we probably still are but I only recently came back to the site so time will tell)

So if i understand you correctly, you believe Gamma is scum bcz she doesnt TR you? Have you played a lot as both of you town?

No, you're not understanding me correctly. And yes, we've played a lot where we were both town, so I would expect her to be able to find me but my read is not a BoP on her at all. During Owner's market blitz, it was definitely part of my read. Here, for lack of a better way to explain, I can see that the emotion in the post where Gamma voted me is not something that Gamma is truly feeling.

Posting the example from OMB to compare to is more for everyone else's benefit because I am comfortable in my ability to read when Gamma is exaggerating an emotion and when it is what she is really feeling. I'm still reading more of Gamma's games to see if I will be wrong when I reach the game she wants me to find

[ssbm_Kyouko]

3d20 (the first iteration of it) I didn't find the righteousness

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Skipping radio buzz and isekai uPick because I remember the alignments from both games (someone let me know if the game Gamma linked was jjh's Mini 2228: Isekai uPick and that's what she wanted me to find)

[ssbm_Kyouko]

3d20 (the first iteration of it) I didn't find the righteousness

What you mean righteousness? Like, she gets aggressive and obstinately entitled as town?

This is like the 3rd or 4th question you've asked in the past day or so that is already answered in my ISO, I feel like at this point you are asking them to appear involved

[ssbm_Kyouko]

For links to Gamma's games that I am referencing, here is an egosearch of her that is filtered down to only show mafia game topics (no speakeasy/arcade/etc.)
search.php?author_id=28404&sr=topics&fi ... d%5B%5D=56

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Reading the pokemon theme now, this one is difficult. leaning town off of the angry posts themselves, but from her reaction after I was NKed in that game I'm leaning more toward scum. 2324 and 2328 in this (pokemon) game feel real again though, so I stopped there and she is town in Manatee's Pokemon Large Theme

[ssbm_Kyouko]

saw in Chrono trigger chronicles Gamma said she just had a string of about 5/7 scumgames so that's going to throw the integrity if I'm close to the game

[ssbm_Kyouko]

VOTE: Celebloki
This is the player I most want to flip out of the current viable votes

quote unrelated, just pinging your notifications
Should I just open the spoiler now that I've seen that (see my last post) in CTC or continue?

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Chrono Trigger Chronicles I made decent headway on before I picked up Gamma was hinting at being a PR that guiltied Guillo on N1 and it all flooded back to me so I stopped reading once I knew Gamma to be town, but didn't find the emotional posting before that

2246 it felt pretty obvious to me in posts like 467, 1005, 1007, 1225,1229 (found the post numbers as examples after reading the iso and calling scum!Gamma) that Gamma did not really feel what she was saying, and she's scum there so this is the first "scum for scum" game - wasn't hard to tell though so I'm guessing this was not the example Gamma had in mind and am continuing

[ssbm_Kyouko]

UNVOTE:

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Gamma softed gunsmith early on she said it was likely there would be an investigative that could clear the millers

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Who are the wagons right now? I've been reading Gamma's games not this one

[ssbm_Kyouko]

In Mafia hands, the Doctor role has an additional, unrelated effect: a Mafia Doctor kills without the use of a gun, and thus a Gunsmith will not see a gun when investigating a Mafia Doctor. (This effect does not occur if a Mafia member gains access to a Doctor action via some other means, e.g. a Jack of All Trades role.)

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Doctor

VOTE: Hu Tao

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Unless someone is going to CC gunsmith I think we lim Hu Tao - Gunsmith makes so much sense in this setup with the roles that are claimed thus far, which means if Gamma is faking to get out of the lim, it's likely someone can CC her. Gamma probably dies toNight if she's town anyways and if not she can feed us clears

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Spoiler: game link (last resort)

viewtopic.php?t=87782

I opened this after the gunsmith claim and that stuff with Prism is not convincing btw

[ssbm_Kyouko]

There's a third choice, to leave Gamma

and

Hu Tao alive, and leash Hu Tao to Gamma either toNight or N2 because of the indecisive modifier

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Leave it up to Hu Tao to decide which Night she will target Gamma so scum have to guess in the odd circumstances where they are both town

[ssbm_Kyouko]

So for the setup/mech experts, does it make sense for there to be 2 Doctors aside from maybe a maf doc and a town doc? If there is a Doc claim, how reasonably should there be a CC to that, or at least a feeling of dubiousness to the claim?

I would just like an answer to this from a though experiment standpoint, please don't read any softing into this by me.

There should not be 2 ungated Doctors but given that Hu Tao has claimed a very gated doctor (can only protect PRs and can't target the same player 2 nights in a row) it is possible that if Hu Tao is town, there is another Town Doctor who is also gated in some way

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I have a valid reason to suspect Gamma

and your suspicion on Gamma is OMGUS

and you are casing around it. I don't like it.
So… anything else Kyouko?

This (in bold) is a misrepresentation of my case, and if I'm not mistaken this is like the 4th or 5th time you've said you had a reason to suspect someone without disclosing the reason.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

(catching up on what happened while I was reading Gamma games)

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Gamma give me your town top 3 and your scum top 3 and why please.

Guillo give me your town top 3 and your scum top 3 and why please.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I'd be fine with Guillo tbh, as I'm catching up it just looks like he's bullying and not really paying attention

[ssbm_Kyouko]

You are not gonna gaslight me for asking you questions.

VOTE: Kyouko

Im not gonna read old games, i barely have time to read this one, that is why im asking you to case Gamma based on this game.

1. I'm not

(TW:emotional abuse)

gaslighting

you - if you think your posting has demonstrated that you are paying attention to my case on Gamma, then if anything I'm

gaslighting

the rest of the game into thinking you are not. I'd invite you to prove this if you feel I'm wrong. Let's try not to use that word going forward if possible please.
2. You are asking simplistic questions that, as Gamma pointed out, amount to busy work at this late stage of D1 - something we do not have time for
3. I don't expect anyone else to read the games I'm posting. I'm posting the games I'm reading for Gamma's benefit because she seems to be under the impression that I might fake the effort to railroad her. Whether town!Gamma actually thinks this or scum!Gamma is pretending to think this, I don't know, but I respect her as a person enough to show her (in case I'm wrong about her being scum, which I think it's turning out that I was based on the claim) that I am putting in a genuine effort here and not railroading her. If we are both town and both survive the Day I think this will lead to her finding me Town as well.
4. I think it's rich of you to suggest you are lacking time when you are one of, if not the, top poster in the game.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I’ll explain the SRs since those have been hashed out less I think
Black: feels like she’s trying to skate by this day phase, there’s some ping-ponging I see in her opinions.
Timmer: feels like he’s trying to control his positioning in a scummy way.
Celeb: I don’t trust how it seems near-everyone suspects him but that doesn’t seem to be amounting to anything

Black: I don't agree that ping-ponging around all pre-flips on D1 is scum-indicative
Timmer: I can see this a valid interpretation of his play but I disagree
Celebloki: softed PR but if he isn't one I'd yeet

[ssbm_Kyouko]

3d20 (the first iteration of it) I didn't find the righteousness

Righteousness means nothing if you feel like whole world is shite. Honestly i dont feel as if you are offering anything tangible, i dont really feel comfortable with voting Gamma just based on your feelings. We are running out of time and you are pushing just some kind of vague impressions. And i still havent forgotten how you tried to push Hu Tao out of here for claiming doctor. I believe that you were (and are) trying to push the most convenient person of the moment. I am not moving my vote from you.

Notice how you yourself are describing me based on how you "feel" about what I'm posting? I did try to show a tangible comparison to Owner's Market Blitz, though I'm not sure if that came before or after this post I'm replying to. I've been open with Guillotina that my read on Gamma is something I can just "tell" about when reading her posting. If I'm wrong in this game it's Gamma's one towngame of probably 10 or more that I read yesterday and today where I was wrong about her. Given the claim it's irrelevant now though. If you take away the claim I stand by scum!Gamma with the highest confidence, which is why I kind of like the idea of limming outside of Hu Tao, Gamma, and letting the NKs work it out.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Like can say that Gamma could have slipped as scum for trying to AtE us with OGI stress while getting pressured which i often see scum do so.
That is based on this game, i want stuff like that.

Gamma gets OGI stressed as both alignments - I am confident that regardless of her alignment she is OGI stressed right now. I'm telling you that I can tell the difference when her heart isn't fully in her emotionally charged posts (scum!Gamma)

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I have been interpreting "righteousness" as righteous indignation, a "how dare you" type of reaction. I see that from Gamma a lot, but it's the kind of thing that is triggered. If the trigger is absent, the reaction will be absent. I don't see how spending that much time looking for whether reactions are present in a given game is at all useful unless you're also reading what people are saying to / about Gamma to find out if triggers are present as well. In particular, using absence of it to guess at alignment.

I had to open the game threads to before the reactions a couple of times when it wasn't clear from quoted posts in her ISO what she's reacting to.

I'm not going into games and checking if she's town or scum and then checking if it's there. That would be pointless. This tell is not about the presence of the reaction, because I know it is present as both alignments. This tell is about the tone. I can tell when Gamma is not fully in it. For some reason, when Gamma should have this type of reaction as scum, she holds back from it. Probably out of guilt if I had to guess why, but it doesn't really matter why because I can spot the difference.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

viewtopic.php?p=13926942#p13926942

@Guillo

You shouldn’t be using that word

Oh I didn't realize this was a rule, sorry

[ssbm_Kyouko]

We can't just keep running people up to claims and then moving to someone else

Does this bring us back to keyleth? Or have they claimed something too, I'm losing track

Key is a VT

I'd be fine with Guillo tbh, as I'm catching up it just looks like he's bullying and not really paying attention

So you just want to keep running people up to claims and then moving on huh?

Maybe it is just kyouko here. But then we would have to make her claim

I'm a miller, I claimed on the first page

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I can do a VC based on Kyouko's last one. One sec

the mod has a more recent one than my last one I think

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Revisiting my interaction with KawaiiKame, it's an outdated read for me

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I think both dave and Gamma make sense as partners to Keyleth

VOTE: Keyleth
Feel Key is the best flip in finding potential association

I'm fine voting KawaiiKame, I can see this post coming from town!KK that had found an early TR on me and decided to stick to that (and sheep me) instead of catching up fully, but if that were the case, I feel like town would own that - something like...

"Haven't read yet and I won't have time to before deadline, but I think Kyouko is town. I'm fine with sheeping her for now"

This post doesn't have that energy though, seems like a weak justification on what is probably the leading wagon at the time

VOTE: KawaiiKame

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Good thing about KK wagon is andres is surely not coming back before deadline so it's sort of a "+1" wagon - same goes for Hu Tao's wagon - BQ2 isn't coming back most likely

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Active players right now are like, Me, Hu Tao, Naerys, Dunnstral, Black, Gamma, maybe dave has time before deadline, maybe Guillo comes back but he said that was going to be his final vote before deadline. Looks like Timmer is around too, and if we're lucky Elements will come around.

So I think 6-7 are definitely here (Timmer is the 7th), and 1-2 more in dave/elements. We have 7-9 players here and need to get 9 to eliminate. Having andres' vote already on KawaiiKame might be what we need to get a flip, since the other "+1" wagon is Hu Tao and they are not going to vote themselves

[ssbm_Kyouko]

gob vote Kawaii before you go

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Oh and for the record I'm also a "+1" wagon with gob's vote parked, and I will vote myself if it's necessary to attain a lim toDay, so that's still an option. obviously I'd rather KK. I think I also forgot Celebloki is around in makign my first post so maybe we have 7-8 actives and not 6-7

[ssbm_Kyouko]

im outta here

gob vote Kawaii before you go

ping

[ssbm_Kyouko]

unofficial vc

Hu Tao

(1): Broccoli Quest 2

Gamma Emerald

(2): Hu Tao, Guillotina

KawaiiKame

(7) [E-2]: Andresvmb, Dunnstral, Kyouko, Gamma, Black, Naerys, Elements

ssbm_Kyouko

(1): gob,

Keyleth

(2): davesaz, KawaiiKame

Celebloki

(0):

Not Voting

(4): Random Nurse, Keyleth, Celebloki, TimmerRC

With 17 alive it takes 9 to eject a player from the Game.

Deadline is (expired on 2023-12-07 23:00:00).

Why are there so many people not voting

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Updated VC, added Naerys and Elements in pedit so the vote order is backwards^

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Celebloki,

Timmer,

Hu Tao, maybe gob/dave should be around

pedit: strike