Mini Normal 2329: complex. [game over!]

[Klick]

2) Quickhammering loses games. Don't do anything stupid before a response can be given.

Haha it didn't lose last game

[Klick]

So Psyche is basically an IC
I think Random Nurse is town as well

[Klick]

So Psyche is basically an IC
I think Random Nurse is town as well

That's an odd phrasing of words.

Also, what makes you think I'm Town?

I think you care about things that town would care about and don't care about things that scum would care about

[Klick]

You were already obvtown that was unnecessary

[Klick]

VOTE: Hu Tao

[Klick]

think Gera's vote was p bad too

I think it's explainable by gera actively inviting the end of D1 in every game and RN being the largest wagon

[Klick]

I think Naerys is arguing this as town and I trust her judgement

Join us gera

[Klick]

What does being an 'instigator' mean

Under some definitions of that word that's definitely something I'm doing but I view it as a pro-town force

[Klick]

D1 USUALLY lasts somewhere near-ish the end of the deadline. So in this game, 6-8ish days. But that can vary widely with playerlist.

[Klick]

Some people like to get action going quickly though to have more to talk about

[Klick]

I think Naerys is arguing this as town and I trust her judgement

Join us gera

Nope. Her reasoning is flawed. It implies scum knew RN was pr. And naerys makes bad arguments like this as scum. So she's prob scum. I still think NotAScum is the better vote here

I'm less interested in her PR-outing logic and more interested in her gut scumread of you

[Klick]

I'm generally posting with the intent of producing a gamestate that will accurately sort people into town and scum
Part of that is posting stuff that provokes reactions

[Klick]

@Dann can I get a decent summary of what you're currently thinking about Political Clout

[Klick]

Thank you Political Clout and Klick for answering that for me.

Klick can you enlighten me on your Hu Tao vote? Was it just random? It feels like your vote started a bit of a trend. Or is literally everyone’s vote right now just random?

There's a few complicated things going into why I want my vote on Hu Tao at the minute that I think would do more harm than good to go into detail about right now. But a good summary of my suspicion there at this point is that I think Hu Tao is more focused on selling herself as genuine than she is on really finding town and scum.

[Klick]

No worries

Don't worry too much about feeling overwhelmed fwiw. People's reasoning can very easily not mean much to you from your own perspective, and that's fine. What matters is that you're around, trying, and forming your own opinions on what's going on around you. Feel free to share whatever's on your mind even if you aren't sure it will be helpful - it'll at least start a nice dialogue most of the time.

[Klick]

Cool, thanks

PC leans towny to me at the minute but the read is still cooking

[Klick]

I think the chutzpah thing is about the only response you could have expected from a town!PC

[Klick]

the way you're framing the question feels like something mafia would say tho.

"why is this person's vote not as bad as mine" feels like something mafia say when they feel like they are being unfairly targeted when they think their play is the same as everyone else.

truth be told I voted you because you had the most votes and you had a sus looking hop on to the wagon, I didn't really bother trying to figure out which vote on the wagon was the most sus or whatever, I just saw two votes on you, checked your iso and decided it was a decent place to start.

This post is a banger

[Klick]

That would be compelling except I don't really have any opinion on the quality of Hu Tao's individually or compared to the other person's because that doesn't really have anything to do with my read on Hu Tao
It feels like Hu Tao really wants to talk about specific reasons she doesn't think she looks scummy
And therefore, yes, I think she's complaining about being suspected by doing so

[Klick]

Hu Tao's vote* individually

[Klick]

klick can you talk about your psyche town read

I think Psyche is focusing on the things he's focusing on out of interest that springs from him looking for scum
I feel like either Psyche is town or he's deliberately faking his entire approach to this game down to how he's feeling about trivial things from the start

[Klick]

Let me get on my laptop I've been playing from my phone this whole game.

Cool, I'm not the only one

[Klick]

Thanks for the reminder that you're not worried about getting eliminated here

[Klick]

UNVOTE: Hu Tao

[Klick]

I find this tactic really obnoxious and would appreciate if you avoided it in the future

But I think you're not that likely to have partners

[Klick]

Like this kind of behavior is very self-focused and you're not that self-focused when your wincon is attached to two other known players

[Klick]

I also think Hu Tao has a higher opinion of her own scum game than to default to this as her tactic

[Klick]

Like this kind of behavior is very self-focused and you're not that self-focused when your wincon is attached to two other known players

that just seems to assume hu tao is a specific brand of scum player

i don't think that's generally true about scum players

I would assume it's true about most people? I'd assume that most people would want to avoid throwing the game for two specific people. There's a responsibility to them in a small group sort of way
I don't have a reason to assume Hu Tao would be exempt from that

[Klick]

If you're town I'm not interested
Losing a town member and then not taking their advice is just going to be -1 town player

[Klick]

My blind spot here, though, is that I have a feeling many people here have played together before and can pick up on things that go completely unnoticed by me. I worry this also brings meta reads that might mean absolutely nothing.

This will be a thing for sure. But there are valid ways to get a decently accurate view of the game without that prior knowledge. I wouldn't worry too much about those arguments unless someone feels like explaining it in such a way that it can be understood by someone without that experience.

I don't have a ton of experience with most of the players here, just a couple of games with a few players and I know Psyche from the discussion forums.

[Klick]

Same

[Klick]

Like this kind of behavior is very self-focused and you're not that self-focused when your wincon is attached to two other known players

that just seems to assume hu tao is a specific brand of scum player

i don't think that's generally true about scum players

I would assume it's true about most people? I'd assume that most people would want to avoid throwing the game for two specific people. There's a responsibility to them in a small group sort of way
I don't have a reason to assume Hu Tao would be exempt from that

why would HT's behavior be scum!throwing and not just scum!ATE

Because of the likelihood that a hammer drops with her self-vote vs. her just... not doing that at all

[Klick]

Kay feels town to me so far

Same

How do you see Kay as anything but null?

Seems like a new player that wants to discuss but doesn't know how.

I am with Dave here, if they are scum they can easily be coached by their buddies on how to post and what questions to ask.

They cannot 'easily' be coached into posting with a believable town mindset if they're unfamiliar with the game and don't already have a knack for it
Give me one example on-site where you've seen that level of coaching turn out successful

[Klick]

Kay feels town to me so far

Same

How do you see Kay as anything but null?

Seems like a new player that wants to discuss but doesn't know how.

I am with Dave here, if they are scum they can easily be coached by their buddies on how to post and what questions to ask.

How often does this really happen? Like seriously, I always here coaching from teammates but I've literally never seen 1 example.

Hahaha yes this

[Klick]

Even ignoring the self-vote situation earlier Hu Tao feels much townier to me on the most recent pages
I think her head's in the game proper now and it's showing

[Klick]

generally i find people who play mafia are more interested in their own individual reads to dead sheep someone like that unless they have a significant reputation for having accurate reads

Hmm. I may be at a disadvantage here because I can’t really take anyone’s reputation into account when I’m completely unacquainted with literally every single person here. I couldn’t differentiate these players from a hole in the ground, especially Day 1. So it’s highly possible I’m being naive in trusting a play where the sole purpose (possibly) is to manipulate, but without previous knowledge…it’s either trust my initial gut response or second guess everything. The latter sounds exhausting but most likely the correct approach for now.

This game is a trip, but I’m glad I joined in!

I'm glad it's at least a little bit of fun so far! For what it's worth, you've been pretty engaging for someone completely new.

This is just my perspective, but I find that the best approach is a mix between your gut feelings and a slowly-increasing level of trust as the game goes on. As you feel more confident in some players being town, you can start to give their opinions a little more weight. It's a voting game, so some cooperation between us all is essential. If you're not confident, there's no shame in following someone who is. That's how you sort of start to form a map of what you roughly think people's alignments are.

[Klick]

And not voting is fine for now, what matters more is your thoughts and opinions. Someone might come in and try to tell you otherwise, but they're wrong.

[Klick]

Someone in the {Dann, Ari, Naerys} set is scum hoping that this wagon goes over prematurely before the momentum dies out

[Klick]

Actually that's not very fair, geraintm's vote was 2.5 hours ago and the Americans are asleep and not periodically staring at this thread

[Klick]

Someone in the {Dann, Ari, Naerys} set is scum hoping that this wagon goes over prematurely before the momentum dies out

Do you think I’m being too anxious about this vote going through early? Maybe it’s just because it goes directly against my read on Hu Tao but I feel this would be a bad kill especially without getting more opinions. I’m open to having my mind changed but right now, I see absolutely no reason for Hu Tao to be killed with where we currently stand as a whole. (I’m mainly weary of this happening while simultaneously being aware of the lack of input, information, and reasoning from everyone beyond a vocal handful)

No I'm on the same page as you, I think a hammer on Hu Tao is both realistic and a bad idea

[Klick]

This is what i get for actually trying in a game? Fine whatever, i stop trying

?????

[Klick]

I thought Naerys was towny earlier but the read is stale
I'm not ready to judge there atm but I'm not flat ruling her out

If it were strictly Hu Tao vs Naerys today then I'd be voting for Naerys

[Klick]

The thing is Hu Tao you're expressing a massive amount of confidence in the Naerys scumread
but you also say you scumread NotAScum more than her and I think your NotAScum scumread is kinda poor
It gives me low confidence in your supposedly strong Naerys scumread

PEdit: stop

[Klick]

Everyone remember that we are here playing a game of Mafia where people might not do exactly ehat we want or expect
And that's okay!

[Klick]

I've started playing the Outer Wilds DLC and it's a blast

[Klick]

Help me yeet Hu and you will become solid town, nurse

Sell me on Hu-Hu first thanks.

Ask yourself, what motivation would townie have in helping with creating a speedwagon so early? They way the votes on you grew, wasnt townie at all IMO.

Reminder that last game you did this AS TOWN. Creating a quick wagon.

This is terrible logic.

Reminder that last game you did this AS TOWN. Creating a quick wagon.

That was then, this is now. And current speedwagon reeks rather badly.

@Naerys

I think it's reasonable for Hu Tao to be unsatisfied with this answer. What is not clear is what is different about this game versus last game, in regards to your attitude towards 'speedwagons'. What's the thing that made it scummy in this game, instead of in last game where it was something town did?

I know Hu Tao's approach is making it difficult for you to engage with that idea logically but I think the concern behind that point is valid and I don't see a clear rebuttal of it from you.

[Klick]

(@Random Nurse: pretty sure the above quotes are what Hu Tao means by 'contradictions')

[Klick]

Hu Tao, two things

1. I apologise for mostly ignoring your case up to this point; my brain mentally shortcuts to check out from most arguments of that nature because 9 times out of 10 they aren't that helpful and are a distraction from my sorting. I think there's a possibility for what you're arguing now to have some merit, but it's pitched the same way I've seen many many cases without merit be pitched in the past and so I kinda just glossed over it

2. I think something that would help is like, a more succinct version of exactly what it is that makes you confident in Naerys being scum. I think I have a general picture from staring at your ISO for like 20ish minutes but then it feels like there are several strands of conversation that don't feel that relevant to your overall point. Can you give me like, a 4-6 sentence summary, along with what background information to read so that I can get on the same page as you? Sorry, I know this is asking for redundant info, but it would help a lot, at least for me

[Klick]

…

…is it just me, or does it feel in the very early game that Naerys and Klick were both placative, supportive, and a touch manipulative?

If you’re Scum choose your next words very carefully.

That's a pretty good description of my general D1 playstyle in most games

[Klick]

Mafia is a game that necessitates both being supportive and manipulative to some degree

'Placative' is more of a personal playstyle thing for me that I've picked up over years of experience, because if I don't do that then I instead waste loads of time on arguments that don't help and don't need to happen

[Klick]

Mafia is a game that necessitates both being supportive and manipulative to some degree

'Placative' is more of a personal playstyle thing for me that I've picked up over years of experience, because if I don't do that then I instead waste loads of time on arguments that don't help and don't need to happen

Perhaps that style works against you upon approaching me.

In my experience it’s always Scum trying to get through my defenses and posing as support. I’ve been in enough games to bet the argumentative ones flailing against me are typically Town.

I view being town in Mafia as primarily about understanding. People are going to do what they do. What matters is finding the truth of the puzzle and making enough of it clear to enough people in enough time. That's often going to require some trust, but also some amount of deception/obscurity.

I've got my own modus operandi, others do as well. I'm willing to work to help others' methods if I trust them and think it will help without disrupting my own methods.

[Klick]

It's specifically because Hu is strong as scum that I doubt she's scum here

[Klick]

I find this tactic really obnoxious and would appreciate if you avoided it in the future

But I think you're not that likely to have partners

Like this kind of behavior is very self-focused and you're not that self-focused when your wincon is attached to two other known players

I also think Hu Tao has a higher opinion of her own scum game than to default to this as her tactic

This is a good summary of my reasoning there RN

The self-vote thing is bad optics. It was always going to be bad optics. Even with me pitching that Hu Tao is town for it, it has her in a worse position than she was before it happened. It was an unnecessary, avoidable blunder if scum, and Hu Tao has explicitly better tactics that she would choose instead of the self-vote. The self-vote expresses a lack of confidence, and that is explained better by Hu!town not feeling listened to about Naerys than it is by Hu!scum thinking she's in a poor spot.

[Klick]

The self-vote expresses a lack of confidence,

'lack of confidence' in terms of her position, not in her read. Maybe 'frustration' is a better word for it

[Klick]

Klick where do you sit currently on Hu?

TL, T, N, SL, S?

Strongest townread that isn't you

[Klick]

I've started playing the Outer Wilds DLC and it's a blast

outer wilds is my favorite game ever

I have been hesitant to play the DLC because I don't want to be disappointed when the main game was so good, but I have a totally free day today and I'm taking advantage of it. I'm very happy so far

[Klick]

VOTE: geraintm

[Klick]

Klick where do you sit currently on Hu?

TL, T, N, SL, S?

Strongest townread that isn't you

OK, walk me through going from voting her to her basically being your strongest Townread?

You've already asked me this question with slightly different wording

I thought she looked fishy, it was largely based on her approach in the first few pages pinging my gut and seeming to match my vague impressions of Hu!scum based on my limited experience with her. I stuck with that for a little while, came back later and decided her approach to the self-vote thing didn't make that much sense from Hu!scum. She's since seemed much more towny to me generally in tone and content.

My mind changed as more evidence presented itself. Expect more of that from me

[Klick]

I'm leaning towards launching Naerys.

Why

[Klick]

Datisi your memes have been on point this game

[Klick]

Hu Tao, two things

1. I apologise for mostly ignoring your case up to this point; my brain mentally shortcuts to check out from most arguments of that nature because 9 times out of 10 they aren't that helpful and are a distraction from my sorting. I think there's a possibility for what you're arguing now to have some merit, but it's pitched the same way I've seen many many cases without merit be pitched in the past and so I kinda just glossed over it

2. I think something that would help is like, a more succinct version of exactly what it is that makes you confident in Naerys being scum. I think I have a general picture from staring at your ISO for like 20ish minutes but then it feels like there are several strands of conversation that don't feel that relevant to your overall point. Can you give me like, a 4-6 sentence summary, along with what background information to read so that I can get on the same page as you? Sorry, I know this is asking for redundant info, but it would help a lot, at least for me

@Hu Tao can I get a response to this? Doesn't have to be immediate but at some point. Since we're on the topic of voting Naerys vs other options

[Klick]

Right but a wall of previous quotes isn't doing much for me

I'm trying to get a relatively concise pitch of like, the main thing you find gives you the confidence that Naerys is clearly scum, so that I can do my own research and see if I think the same reading the same stuff as you.

Is it just that she is confidently saying things that seem contradictory to push her agenda, similarly to a previous game you played with her?

[Klick]

I disagree generally based on my experiences with town players in Mafia

Is there a reason she specifically contradicts herself as scum? If she's done it previously then I'd like to analyse the place(s) she's done it previously and see the similarities and differences between there and here

[Klick]

It's okay Psyche we're in this together

[Klick]

Gera, if I showed you examples of Day 1s where scum are caught and eliminated based on D1 content, would you reconsider that belief

[Klick]

It would be funny if Naerys and Hu Tao are both scum trying to forcefully distance and set up the other as town after a flip of either.

Random Nurse already put on that tinfoil hat

[Klick]

It’d be hilarious if Naerys and Hu were engaged in distancing.

…

Hilarious indeed.

[Klick]

think Gera's vote was p bad too

I think it's explainable by gera actively inviting the end of D1 in every game and RN being the largest wagon

wow you are like a meta encyclopedia

I feel like it's really tough to have decent accuracy without understanding how people play individually a lot more than most are willing to do

But also with gera he's just got a very distinguishable shtick there with the doing nothing D1

[Klick]

VOTE: NotAScum

[Klick]

I think this is a good flip and if he's scum I think there's a few sensible next steps

[Klick]

*watches specific players actively shift attention away from Naerys*

I asked you why on Naerys and got nothing
I don't feel that enthusiastic about Naerys as a wagon

Give me a compelling reason to think she's scum and I'll reconsider

[Klick]

I worry that the minute I give my opinion on my gut feeling on a few I am strongly feeling are town, I’m going to get responses that say “oh I’ve played with them before, they do this as scum” “don’t pay attention to that” etc etc. I feel like I’m the only one that can’t offer any meta and therefore I’ll never have the full picture that others seem to have. It’s slightly alienating but I’m trying to keep up.

Like Psyche said, that kind of information is probably good for you to get anyway. It's also nice to have a perspective removed from meta.

Most people also have far less real meta knowledge than you'd think

[Klick]

Random Nurse, do you want to convince me that Naerys is scum, or do you want to keep making vague potshots about how I'm not following your agenda without engaging with my posts asking you to elaborate?

[Klick]

LHF is low hanging fruit, ie easy targets.

naeyrs is the low hanging fruit. or maybe hu tao. either of the self-voters are hanging pretty low

I don't consider either to be LHF, especially Hu. Naerys, when Town, does engage when sufficiently motivated.

Were you there when Scum Hu CC'd the Cop that had a guilty on her and got him launched? That's not the definition of LHF, period. Competent Scum could very easily dangle a self-vote filly knowing that ain't going nowhere.

Right but you're going to say this about anything Hu Tao says because you're paranoid of her scum play
In the 75% chance that she's town you've got to find a way to identify that

She

could

do some weird self-vote play here as scum, but if she were scum she

would

choose to do otherwise because she's competent

[Klick]

She could do some weird self-vote play here as scum, but if she were scum she would choose to do otherwise because she's competent

Unless you follow this to the next level of WIFOM, where as scum we'd think she would choose to do otherwise so she does it anyway.

And then you continue on ad infinitum to the Nash equilibrium where it's still quite unlikely she chooses to self-vote like this

Or, more accurately, you ignore WIFOM paranoia entirely and make a judgement on how someone would be likely to behave based on the information available.

[Klick]

VOTE: kayjayqueue

I don't see this at all

[Klick]

Could it be Naerys, Psyche, Klick?

*makes measuring gestures with hands*

I think psyche and Klick are prob town. I think we look elsewhere. Aren't you sus of NAS?

Not at all.

Insultingly flimsy "reasoning" was given.

Reasoning wars are won by people who can debate and that has nothing to do with alignment

If the scum were, say, NAS/geraintm/Aristeia, we would have very few ways of knowing based on the current state of things.

Opinions on alignment often matter much, much more than the reasons behind them.

[Klick]

I would not be surprised if all 3 scum were in: Naerys, NotAScum, Ari, Gera, PC, Dann. (Maybe Drew too but I need more time on him. I keep flipping on his alignment)

This list makes me happy

[Klick]

UNVOTE:

[Klick]

VOTE: geraintm

[Klick]

VOTE: geraintm

A few comments on this would help enormously.

If NAS is scum, I think he's with a scumteam who isn't assistjng him to post anything better than 757 and I think that team probably includes geraintm.
If NAS isn't scum, I think we're not shooting that much better than rand, and geraintm is a null slot that is bringing zero utility.

[Klick]

Although my gut does suspect there's at least one among Klick, Hu Tao, and Psyche. Anyone have first-hand experience with Klick's Scum meta?

Also, hi Titus.

I've been asked to quote this for... *reasons.*

This makes a lot of sense

[Klick]

If NAS is scum, I think he's with a scumteam who isn't assistjng him to post anything better than 757 and I think that team probably includes geraintm.

I have trouble with this logic because I think maybe three or four players in this PL would provide "coaching" and you don't even know if NAS cares enough about the game to be receptive to it.

I think most partners would have by this point said something to encourage him towards an amount of passable content

'Gee there sure isn't much to talk about for so many days' is a very strange comment for someone with partners and a vague sense of a scum agenda to make
It makes more sense from a newer townie who genuinely doesn't see the point

[Klick]

It's not a Hard Town read but I think NAS is more likely town due to it

[Klick]

And there was like NO resistance to my fail wagon until I played Uno Reverse card.

Klick enters the chat

[Klick]

Dann/Hu if you two would rather go PC I'd sheep. They felt towny earlier but that hasn't particularly persisted.

[Klick]

I don't really understand why gera is bottom tier for you Dann
Is it 'this player is scum with NAS and possibly scum even without NAS'?

[Klick]

VOTE: Political Clout

[Klick]

And there was like NO resistance to my fail wagon until I played Uno Reverse card.

Klick enters the chat

sounds like you might have known all along tbh.

and other classic mafia memes

[Klick]

I'm feeling this Random Nurse guy is probably a town. Don't ask me how I deduced that.

either he is the best newb scum player in the world or he has no idea what is going on in this game.

I read this as a joke?

[Klick]

klick can you come sort this out

Yesterday was a trainwreck, I'll be here tonight

[Klick]

you want to eliminate her because she hasn't jumped through your hoops, that doesn't make me confident that your scum read has a high chance of being accurate

ding ding

[Klick]

I feel like a good half of this playerlist is kind of just rolling with whatever suspicion their brain can cook up and treating it like it's particularly likely and worth pushing instead of taking the next step and evaluating its accuracy. And that has me demotivated

[Klick]

Ari Dan Psyche? Thoughts on that being the team.

You think a TvT wagon right now is more likely than a TvT wagon earlier in the day? On what grounds?

[Klick]

Titus said she thought Naerys v Hu Tao was unlikely to be TvT

[Klick]

I want to get into the nitty gritty with this game but I need some prompting
My gut feeling is that this is quite solvable. But I don't currently have the structure to make thoughts cohesive

Someone ask me about stuff

[Klick]

Is that like, specifically what players, or more what kind of player?

Right this second I don't have a solve. I think there are several players who are probably discernably town with a bit more of a deep dive into their posting. And from there I'll be able to give a better answer of who I think would be likely scum here (and therefore a good D1 vote).

[Klick]

Everyone has a different approach so don't take my planning as gospel

but my intention with this game atm is going to be to basically try to narrow down our options via process of elimination. I'm going to try to isolate a few players who I think are very likely town and attempt to demonstrate that. Then, out of players that remain, I'm going to try to discern who decent elimination options would be for the day. If no one particularly stands out as likely scum, I'm likely to advocate for voting someone who is more in the 'pure null' range, where they're doing very little that's alignment-indicative. But I'd rather aim for likely scum if I can find someone that happily fits that description. I dunno

[Klick]

I think Naerys shouldn't be that hard to accurately solve for here using a combination of simple logic and meta. I also think making Naerys' alignment clear here does a lot of heavy lifting for what scum have potentially been doing for the rest of the game so far.

[Klick]

To be clear, I lean towards town for Naerys at the moment and would like to increase my confidence in that. But if I look into it more deeply and decide that's wrong that is also a good conclusion

[Klick]

i also lean naerys as town

I think with the self-vote + IC pushing it that wagon is going to be like radioactive material for scum

Just making sure, you're saying you think scum are avoiding the Naerys wagon?

[Klick]

Please stop trolling Naerys
This game can either be a very negative experience or not that, and that's up to players' personal choices

[Klick]

She did the self-vote far before that was remotely true though

(@Hu Tao)

[Klick]

I'm eating my pizza and then looking more seriously at this

[Klick]

She did the self-vote far before that was remotely true though

(@Hu Tao)

She saw the tides turning

And when this predictably gets Naerys killed anyway and she flips scum, how are her actions towards you explainable?
Unless you want to argue that she is only concerned with short-term survival and not at all concerned with spew in the event she flips scum

[Klick]

She's literally at E-2

She's hard to get voted out because people (like me) have legitimate suspicions that she is just town and that you and her got into a nonsense TvT argument and can't get over yourselves

[Klick]

I skim Page 15 and the entire narrative of the page is basically 'Hu is town and maybe Naerys is scum'
I can understand the tilt from either alignment

[Klick]

Idk I don't think her reaction is implausible?

[Klick]

I mean a scumteam like Naerys/davesaz/Titus sounds really funny lol
I don't think that's what we're dealing with though

[Klick]

Please stop trolling Naerys
This game can either be a very negative experience or not that, and that's up to players' personal choices

I’m getting sick and tired of her refusing to engage.

Even if Town that is NOT fucking OK.

It's a game
People do less sportsmanlike stuff in games all the time
It's 'okay' for her to do whatever
I'm more concerned with whether she's town or scum from it

[Klick]

Frankly I think the narrative of 'this is all a very intentional scum ploy from Naerys' is ridiculous and she's obviously not enjoying this or having much intentionality in how she feels about this and I have no clue why Hu Tao thinks that's at all plausible

[Klick]

the height of the HT wagon was on page 15, you dismantled it yourself out of nowhere by page 16.

I don't understand why you would tilt if you're getting close to limming the person you think is mafia

i dont understand why you refuse to vote for hu tao or push her

so I have to make a narrative that makes sense to me because I don't really get it if you're town and straight up playing against your win con this way

You've never seen town emotionally self-implode in ways that didn't seem rational to you?

[Klick]

ITT Klick predictably continues to run cover for Naerys.

I know it's uncomfortable territory for you not being paranoid of everyone in the game

[Klick]

ITT Klick predictably continues to run cover for Naerys.

I know it's uncomfortable territory for you not being paranoid of everyone in the game

And you’re apparently not.

I wonder why that is.

If you actually 'wondered' why that is you'd go have a gander at any of my previous games and realise that this is my means of operation for basically every game I've played in the last two years

Instead, you're more interested in expressing suspicion at everyone so that when whatever random answer shows itself, you can show that you were right all along and weren't fooled.

Mafia is a game of trust. Finding scum is important, finding town is more effective.

[Klick]

Why's Titus town

[Klick]

Right, I've just skimmed through a few Naerys ISOs and gotten a general feel for how she acts as both alignments

Frankly I think the difference between her town and scum game is night and day
Specifically, her heart and soul seem to be in the game significantly more when she's town
I don't think she's the type of scum player who either could nor would choose to play out a D1 like how this one has gone

[Klick]

Right, I've just skimmed through a few Naerys ISOs and gotten a general feel for how she acts as both alignments

Frankly I think the difference between her town and scum game is night and day
Specifically, her heart and soul seem to be in the game significantly more when she's town
I don't think she's the type of scum player who either could nor would choose to play out a D1 like how this one has gone

You're saying that self voting, commenting on only one player, and telling everyone else to take a hike is heart and soul level play?

Yes
Compared to when she's scum and is mostly trying to not draw attention or otherwise play reasonably within expected bounds of her win condition
She seems to care more about being pleasant when scum, and lets things get to her when she's town

[Klick]

why does naerys even choose to stick around as town for so long after her self vote? at best it stretches credibility. rather than giving up on the game, i think she's been invested this whole time and believing that lurking provides a low effort way to sidestep suspicion

She's butthurt that Hu Tao isn't dying and she's getting suspected. It's explained more by her feeling ignored and like she's right and everyone else is wrong, as opposed to people leaning more towards accurately finding her as scum.

[Klick]

naeyrs's activity patterns suggest that she's at least skimmed all 52 pages of this game

I've stuck around and read games that I also felt like I wanted no part in before
I've also sat around in threads just to have arguments with people I was annoyed with to no real positive end
It gives off the same vibes

[Klick]

think klick is leaning way too hard on meta here. if there really are such night and day differences between naeyrs's town and scum play then taking advantage of that meta to justify lurking is child's play. if naerys had let the thread "get to her" then her performance of disengagement and disillusionment here would be more total

I flatly and strongly disagree with this take

[Klick]

Frankly I think the narrative of 'this is all a very intentional scum ploy from Naerys' is ridiculous and she's obviously not enjoying this or having much intentionality in how she feels about this and I have no clue why Hu Tao thinks that's at all plausible

She can be scum and not enjoying

I think the reason she's not enjoying is linked to her being town

[Klick]

i completely agree naerys is sincerely not enjoying the game; this could explain why her play doesn't currently fit w her supposed scum meta. but when i'm not enjoying a game as scum, withdrawing while maintaining the bare minimum of activity is usually the least i can do for my teammates

I don't think Naerys' lack of enjoyment is explainable from a scum perspective

She's salty because she thinks Hu is getting away with murder and she's spiting the town for it by trying to implode

If she's scum she was responding to a standard amount of pressure that she would be prepared to face as scum

[Klick]

It doesn't feel like caught for the wrong reasons at all

[Klick]

klick how do you generally distinguish between town lurking and scum lurking?

i'll give that it's not my strong suit; this naeyrs scumread is my best effort at it. is your approach to examine meta?

'Lurking' is an ambiguous term and not really what I feel accurately describes Naerys' play at the minute

It's all contextual. You can call it meta, but most of my reads generally come from making an overall read on a player as a person and making judgements based on that

If someone is just 'lurking' that usually doesn't mean much of anything to me in regards to alignment - people have different reasons for lower activity all the time
It's about identifying why they are lurking, whether it has anything to do with what colour role PM they got, etc

[Klick]

i completely agree naerys is sincerely not enjoying the game; this could explain why her play doesn't currently fit w her supposed scum meta. but when i'm not enjoying a game as scum, withdrawing while maintaining the bare minimum of activity is usually the least i can do for my teammates

I don't think Naerys' lack of enjoyment is explainable from a scum perspective

She's salty because she thinks Hu is getting away with murder and she's spiting the town for it by trying to implode

If she's scum she was responding to a standard amount of pressure that she would be prepared to face as scum

when i read this i just think that the second and third paragraph do all the explaining that is asserted to be impossible in the first.

she

thinks

she has a neat and credible way to face the pressure on her and justify her lurking — she thinks this anger around hu tao looks legit and that its outsized scale makes the anger look more credible

but i don't think the performance has been convincing, particularly in the last couple days of activity she's exhibited

I don't think scum!Naerys looks at what happened at the time of her implosion and thinks her emotional outburst is 'a neat and credible way to face the pressure on her'
If she were thinking that rationally in the first place she'd have opted for a tactic that is anywhere within her standard range

[Klick]

w all do respect i feel like that's a non answer
of course someone trying to sort between scum lurking and town lurking doesn't think it means much about alignment wo consideration of applicable context;
the question would be meaningless

Then I guess I'm not getting the point of your question
Or my answer is 'I don't distinguish between town lurking and scum lurking'

[Klick]

Naerys' blow-up this game just seems to be really obviously fueled by disdain for how poorly she thinks other players are playing in a way that only really makes sense if she knows they're wrong

Like Psyche, you're saying you think her emotional outburst is genuine. But to say Naerys is scum you have to assume stuff like this:

Why would my confidence crumble if I'm scum and I successfully miseliminate you

bcz scum has to keep up some appearances, if you´d remain confident after being so obviously "wrong" it´d be suspicious
so obviously your confidence will have to crumble even if for the spectators

is just nonsense she's making up, thrown in amongst things that aren't nonsense at all

It seems really clear that she comes on, posts rants about what's on her mind for a while, logs off for a couple of hours, then comes back and starts ranting about what's on her mind some more
It doesn't match with how she's feeling.

[Klick]

Can you stop asuming stuff about whats going in my head? Thanks, good night

No, because we're playing a game of Mafia. Because you threw a tantrum over what people thought in a Mafia game, I'm now supposed to deduce whether you were doing it genuinely because you're town, or whether you were trying to emotionally manipulate people into not eliminating you. Several people think the latter, and I believe it was the former. Your attitude towards the game during and since then has not clarified the matter at all. And so I'm going to continue trying to clarify what I believe happened there, because I'm here to play a game of Mafia and solve for people's alignments in this game of Mafia.

[Klick]

Naerys
Hu Tao
KayJayQueue

Titus
NotAScum
Aristeia
geraintm
Political Clout
Dannflor
davesaz
Psyche

[Klick]

I looked through NotAScum's ISO again and while I'm not like super sold on him being town, I do think he's more likely to be town than scum

I kind of like how his focus on Hu Tao feels. It has such a detachment from everything else going on in the game. Seriously, ISO NAS and see how his progression on Hu Tao looks. He has a nagging suspicion there from start to finish. I wouldn't call finding Hu Tao scummy much of a natural political take, especially at this stage of the game. And so the way that read just kind of persists makes me feel like it might just be there because... NAS just actually believes Hu Tao is scummy.

Like I said, not that strong of a read, but I think there could be something there

[Klick]

Mini Normal 2325 makes me less convinced of Psyche-town

I thought your scum play there was particularly good. Do you think you're a good scum player Psyche

[Klick]

I think dave could pretty easily be scum
I think he's staying out of the way and letting people fight while having relatively little impact
He's not trying to assert his opinion in the way I remember him trying to do so as town years ago
He seems to have little sense of agency for how things are going up to this point

I've had dave in the back of my head for a little while as UTR scum but what is there doesn't feel substantial enough to push through to an elimination and also I don't really want to push there and be wrong

[Klick]

what is everybody's read on dave

to be fair to dave, dave has a passive style that makes him hard to read in general because you can't consistently use questions like "is this person trying to get scum executed?" to sort him
that said my hunch is he's scum and if my notascum read plays out how i expect then i will probably call for dave's head and then get roundly ignored

haha twinsies

[Klick]

sorry klick i don't really vibe with your read on him at all

I think tunneling on one slot in a rather isolated fashion is a rather common strategy for scum to employ. it makes it easy to make real looking posts without having to expend a lot of energy. i think 910 feels more like a question scum would ask than town would ask

Sure that's fine
I don't feel like NotAScum would be an egregious slot to test at all

[Klick]

Naerys is at E-2

Just to be clear

[Klick]

I'd sheep Dann specifically onto NAS

I feel like burden of proof is probably a pretty good way to solve for Dann

[Klick]

do you mean burden of proficiency?

Yes, sorry, was tired

[Klick]

do you have scum reads, klick

None deeper than what I described with davesaz, no

[Klick]

think dann is town. kind of curious why hu tao keeps him in her pool

He's good as scum. Can look towny

How is Dann as Scum?

Does he normally refuse to work with Tiwn especially ICs?

I think Dann is town because;

if Dann is scum with Naerys scum I don't think Naerys plays this way because Dann is fairly good at coaching his teammates to not do this nonsense.

if Dann is scum with Naerys town I don't think he bothers to "work" to find an alternative or take the time to work against you and craft an opposing narrative - he just takes the slam dunk Naerys lim where it stands and moves on.

This is a very simplistic read of Dann ig, he's certainly capable of being mafia I just don't think he plays this way

I'm finally seeing Ari town, this is a town mindset

[Klick]

Frankly I think the narrative of 'this is all a very intentional scum ploy from Naerys' is ridiculous and she's obviously not enjoying this or having much intentionality in how she feels about this and I have no clue why Hu Tao thinks that's at all plausible

I have to assume Naerys is having fun due to the site rule to sub out if you aren't.

But that's not based in reality

[Klick]

Probably a pretty good equity scum flip? I didn't think Drew was towny and I think the Venn diagram between Titus!town and Titus!scum behavior is usually pretty close to a circle early on

[Klick]

Given the insane resistance I'm thinking Naerys is still the best course of action, and I'm gonna start advocating Town starts picking off those that refused starting Day 2 (should she flip Scum).

Yes King Nurse

[Klick]

VOTE: NotAScum

[Klick]

Good game. KJQ, you were very enjoyable to play with, and I hope the game wasn't too off-putting. I'd love to play together when you're town sometime!

[Klick]

Psyche you're not allowed to read the dead thread