Mini 774: Case Closed Mafia (One Truth Prevails!)

[Battousai]

/confirmth

[Battousai]

Vote: Millar13

for taking an anti-town policy in order to help his scum play.

[Battousai]

V/LA for the rest of the weekend

[Battousai]

Back from V/LA, post to come after class

[Battousai]

b]Unvote[/b] my random vote.


25– millar FOS's me for “applying tactics in RVS.”

I don't see the merit in this FOS. I wasn't applying tactics, I was just random voting him because he's helping his scum play by never voting in the RVS

33– millar explains that trying to make a game serious ASAP is scummy because townies shouldn't feel akward around the RVS.

He misunderstood my vote as being serious and not a random vote. But his explanation seems contradictory. How is not participating/voting in the RVS not feeling akward in the RVS?

34,35- strangercoug and firestarter sees contradiction in millar's FOS and places votes.

36- Korlash disagrees and says millar can't be trying to

start

serious discussion if I already started it and claim “Johnny”? Was twisting words.

Could you comment on the fact that millar called me suspicious for applying tactics, which he saw as me being nervous in RVS/starting discussion to get out, and the whole not voting in RVS

38- Korlash explains his last post. Said my vote was me starting discussion and thus when Millar FOS'd me he can't start something that already started and since that part of the argument is false he doesn't care about the rest of SC's argument.

Why do you not think that Millar not participating in the RVS is a tactic?

[Battousai]

Something that I have noticed...

-Millar wrote scum partner towards firestarter

-Strangercoug sees that as a contradiction

-Millar explains he made a mistake and meant scum member

-Millar later says “Strangecoug he is coming off as a generic town player, I have played with a number of times. “

-Strangercoug sees that as Millar saying he has played with him a number of times

-Millar explains that he meant he played with the generic town player type and strangercoug is coming off as one

-Then strangercoug comes up with post 69.

All I have to say is, strangercoug is taking this way too seriously. The first blunder, yes I can see how it could be seen as scum mistake or even a Freudian slip with Firestarter, but the second one. Come on, I understood what he meant, and even if you didn't how is saying I played with you a lot scummy. And then you threaten him for not being as clear.

[Battousai]

Vote: Firestarter

for post 108, OMGUS. That along with your waiting to vote seems scummiest to me right now.

Korlash-

don't actually understand what you want me to comment on... It doesnt seem like a question I can answer and uh... I really don't see what or how I can comment on what you're talking about in this bold. Would you mind clearifying it for me?

and

Did I say that? If so where. If not why are you putting words in my mouth?

First off, you implyed you believed not voting in the RVS is not a tactic by saying I started acting serious first. It is tied to my above quote where I asked you to comment on millar's lack of a vote in the RVS to see what your actual stance was and not guess it from what you implyed. I'll make the questions simplier:

1) Do you feel not participating in the RVS with a vote is a tactic, regardless of alignment?

2) If so, would my vote on him for this tactic still be considered "starting it"?

[Battousai]

Vote: Firestarter

for post 108, OMGUS.

That along with your waiting to vote seems scummiest to me right now.

And how do you explain millar13 not even placing a vote yet?

Because you voted for millar before and took it off for others to post. To me, I think you wanted more people's opinions to support your vote. Townie shouldn't be afraid to push a lynch on a person by themselves. Millar, on the otherhand, hasn't voted at all as is part of his playstyle apparently, so that doesn't make him as scummy.

[Battousai]

Firestarter, come on. He answered all of your questions. You just didn't get the answers you wanted. I think the main problem you have is reading compehension. One sentance millar13 writes can be influenced by others he has written before/after, especially question 3. He didn't say the word mannerism, but infered it by talking about the way you posted (insults and what not).

Also, how are all the lurkers (afatchic, dubya) and those who haven't commented much on the firstarter v millar13 cases (and taken a stance).

Mod: Could you please prod dubya and afatchic if you haven't? And if you have, are replacements needed?

[Battousai]

Firestarter concerning post 170:

The first serious post belongs to Battousai, 2nd belongs to millar13 and the 3rd belongs to Strangercoug.
millar13 overlooks Battousai's original post as the first serious post of the game, but accuses SC of this exclaiming it was a scum-tell. This is the first falsity. Why was Battousai's post overlooked in favour of SC's? Distancing/bussing of either comes to mind.

That is what you wrote, but what really happened was millar commented he didn't vote in the RVS, I voted him for it, Millar FOS'd me for voting him for it, SC asked why towards the FOS, and Millar explained. Millar never accuses SC of being scummy up to that point.... Which then lessens your case against him until you remark about millar saying rushing to a vote is bad, when a FOS is better.

The first statement is out and out scummy considering M13 later states that my Post 49 is the first real sign of townieness from me which happened to be my first serious post of the game. He states he's still 50/50 on me, wouldn't town be 50/50 on anyone in game, especially after just coming out of the random stage? He then looks at lurkers, saying that scum may be contained within them, why not place a vote on one them to get them to post?

So are you saying your original vote on Millar, which you deem as adding light pressure, isn't serious?

I FOS M13 for his crap-logic.

-In reference to bandwagons are not good for town in D1 by Millar.

You think Millar is suspicious because he has a different ideal than you? Why is this indictive of scum? From what I have read of Millar's posts, he feels D1 bandwagons are usually controlled by scum since there is so little information to go on.

He then states that Im likely scum of the players participating in the game, when a few short posts earlier he says Im 50/50.
I made only 1 other post since he claimed this...

No he said you were the most likely scum member at the moment. There is a big difference.

SC, do you have nothing to add from the case I just posted, other than worry about yourself?

There were some things I noticed, that I'd come back to later....
Right now, the case is on M13, he is top of the pile for me.

So it is ok for you to skip questions, but for others it's scummy?

Also, the rest of your case does stand up a bit.

[Battousai]

"Read my quote again for clarity... The timeline is clear, I state that M13 says SC just gave off a scum-tell after SC asked him about it. NOT before it.
And why are you NOT addressing the real point of that post, that M13 ignored you in favour of SC?
Read it again."

Reading comprehension, millar fos's me for applying tactics, sc asks why is that suspicious, millar explains why it is a scumtell. Millar doesn't say SC commited the scumtell.

"I seen I could add some light pressure on M13 after his post, His reaction would only deem it serious."

So you applied a tactic then, pressuring Millar into get a scummy or town response. Guess what? Tactics aren't random and thus are considered serious....


"I was suspicious about M13 saying that D1 BW's were dangerous for town.
Not his ideals.
The fact is that BW's bring about info, and we know info is good for town.
So he showed scuminess, yes.
Do you believe that D1 BW's are only controlled by scum Bat?"

Personnally I do not BELIEVE D1 bandwagons are controlled by scum, but it is just my opinion, part of my mafia ideals. Now the key word in the whole thing is D1. He believes D1 bandwagons are controlled by scum, which could stem from personal experience, I do not know. You are suspicious of him for something he believes to be true.


"WRONG. He said I was 50/50.
Go check the posts please."

And believe it or not Firestarer comment in Post 49, actually indicate what i feel about wagon's in the early game...even if I am convinced he is the most likely scum member at the moment. Although, not enough active players have sprouted to give a fully loaded judgement.

Please tell me where he DOESN'T say you are the most likely scum member at the moment.

"WOW, where were you when I needed the dig out, RE: questions not being answered!!

Ill get around to them, as I have done all game.

Also, did you post some critique on M13's case?
I might have missed it... Post number...?"

Where was I? I was there saying he did answer your questions. The reason I pointed it out is because you keep calling millar out on it, but you are doing it too.

I did not post a critique of Millar's case. The reason is because it was not directed at me, and my vote is on you, so I have already have my stance on the subjected planted firmly in.

[Battousai]

Firestarter- Why don't you do a simple name claim? That way if you have a power-role or a vanilla townie role, it won't be obvious.

[Battousai]

Firestarter- "Logical reasons?? Why would you NOT read a case built on another player?
BTW, Town need to read these posts. End of."

Reading comprehension. You need to slow down and read everything correctly before posting. He didn't say he didn't read the case, but rather wouldn't analyze it the way you presented it (aka wall of text).

[Battousai]

Millar- Did you say SC committed the scum-tell in the quote or was it to SC ABOUT me?

No, other people claimed my vote was serious, but it was just random voting. I had a reason for it, but I wasn't trying to achieve anything from it.

No, I am not suspicious from your personal mafia ideals. I am suspicious for the REASONING behind some of them, and/or if you are lieing about your ideals.

I clearly made an error...I meant to say that Firestarter was a scum member (not scum partner) I have no reason to beleive that yourself (Strangecoug) is actually aligned with that.
Am I cracking under pressure? Not that I noticed.
And believe it or not Firestarter comment in Post 49, actually indicate what i feel about wagon's in the early game...even if I am convinced he is the most likely scum member at the moment. Although, not enough active players have sprouted to give a fully loaded judgement.
Bandwagons are often used in early stages, by over-eager mafia members or town members looking to be part of an easy lynch so that they don't feel to guilty about it if they are in heavy unison. With that being said, I think Strangecoug your heart is in the right place just searching in the wrong direction.

M13 uses the word "clearly". If the error was clear, SC would not have pointed the error out. He states then that Im a scum member rather than a scum partner. This is how scum is caught, by errors made in posts, if no-one made errors, lynches would be based on guesses. After saying my Post 49 is what he's feeling about wagons, which is lies as he stated he was opposed to them earlier, he then says Im still likely to be scum... This is a huge OMGUS. Its also very arguable that SC was placing more pressure on M13 than I was at this stage, yet M13 then goes on to say that SC is still likely Townie and that his heart is in the right place? At this point, its 5 posts past where the RVS stage finished for me.

He claims Im scum, at this point, because I applied pressure with my vote. Nonsense.

This is your original post in your case. Now at the end you say he claims you're scum, in which I then say he didn't. We were both refering to this post which is after the 50/50 post.

I didn't "refuse to read your case on M13." I just don't need to spend a wall of text analyzing it in game, for logical reasons I already presented. Did you read those ones?

Understand the word "didn't" as in he didn't refuse to read your case. Which means he read it.

And yes, I do mean character name.

Isaac- "QFT!!!
***Am I correct in getting your name? =P"

Close, off by 3 *'s

[Battousai]

looking for a counterclaim to the name Vivian Kudo

I am not Vivian Kudo, btw.

[Battousai]

Unvote

I want afatchic and dubya to be replaced or post before we go into the next day.

Since Firestarter claimed Vanilla, it would be best just to lynch him. If he is town, then the scum know he is not a powerrole, which then give them a better chance of hitting one.

While we wait, I think we should play the rest of today under the assumption we lynch Firestarter and he turned up vanilla townie. I will post tomorrow as it is getting late and I gotta get up early for my first class tomorrow.

[Battousai]

Actually the show is over 500 episodes... (Too bad I can only watch 2 at a time at the site I watch them at )

Wow Millar, first you complain that making a mistake in wording isn't scummy, it just makes you human. Now that it has happened to Firestarter (spelling or wording), you jump on his case for it.

[Battousai]

My flavor is in the English version ala Jimmy over Shinichi. Looking at Firestarter's flavor, he uses the English version for the role name, but switches over to the Japanese version for the flavor...

Millar- you don't believe his nameclaim to be true, but you zeroed on on the misspelling or different word to support your claim.

Still waiting for afatchic and dubya to contribute before I vote (which might effectively hammer considering pacman looks to be wanting to vote Firestarter from my interpretation of his recent posts).

[Battousai]

Regardless of whether your claim makes since, I will vote you. Why? You claimed vanilla townie. Whenever someone on the chopping blocks claims that on D1, my policy is to lynch them. The reason is because the scum now know Firestarter isn't a powerrole, which increases their chance to NK a powerrole if we lynch/out another role.

[Battousai]

We need to lynch Firestarter...... he claimed vanilla.

[Battousai]

This is D1, our best guess would only be a guess. There isn't a lot of informationt o go off of. If we choose not to lynch Firestarter and say run up a wagon on millar, we could possibly out a powerrole or he'll claim vanilla. We then would probably lynch one of the two claimed vanilla players.

If there are 3 scum and both firestarter and millar are vanilla, that means when it comes to night the scum have a 1:7 chance of hitting a powerrole. It is best to lynch the Firestarter because it lessens the chance from 1:8 to 1:7 for the scum to find and kill a powerrole before they get to use their ability or if we run up a wagon on a powerrole, it almost guarantees their death unless there is a protective role. IMO, D1 you lynch the claimed vanilla.

Plus, more than likely we will end up lynching him later...

[Battousai]

Right now, I'm just waiting for replacement for pacman, and afatchick and dubya to post.

[Battousai]

2: I did not say to lynch people I thought were town. I mean random lynching. The 10-3 town scum math odds of winning as town become a lot better RL twice then NLing 4 times, even with a cop accounted for in the period before LY/LO

3: His flip gives us more information regardless of what direction the flip is. Obviously it would help more if he is indeed scum.

1) Then why post it? It is useless information, as I'm most confident no one planned on no lynching until endgame...

2) You didn't answer the question. The question was what information would be gained, not what flip would give us information.

[Battousai]

I think we have waited long enough for the inactives to post/be replaced. The game is starting to die down which is worse.

Vote: Firestarter

[Battousai]

5 days is a long time to wait for a lynch. People get bored, interests go down, the game becomes less fun.

[Battousai]

Heir to Blackblade! Its very Grandeur like and Legendary imo.

WTF are you smoking?

[Battousai]

Sajin- What are you suspicious of SC for? Don't say "I agree with Firestarter."

[Battousai]

mod any word on the 3 non posters?

No, sorry. If any friends wish to help out, that would be helpful.

I guess I could replace in as all three of those players, that would bring me to the cap. Just send me their roles

The 2 main points I though firestarter had:

The quote [SC] saying no one suspected millar depending on firestarters flip. As I recall it was [SC] who theorized them as scumbuddys.

Also when [SC] pointed out the supposed contradiction: There was no contradiction.

I think [SC is] misrepresenting firestarter with the quotes provided.

Compare those to the case on firestarter brought by millar13 and others. You had your vote on firestarter at one point, IIRC. What has firestarter done to lessen your suspicion on him or do you think that what you have listed above is stronger than the one on Firestarter?

[Battousai]

How?

[Battousai]

How?

he had 2 votes I had a fos. The person under pressure he refered to was likely himself, freudian slip.

This is crap. I know Firestarter's case on me to be serious, but your case on me is a joke and can be summed up as you telling me "Yeah, whatever, scaredy cat." If you're going to vote me, at least present me with something worth defending like Firestarter did. Don't be skimping on scumhunting to see what you can get away with.

Unvote: alexhans
Vote: Sajin

sorry, I perfer shorter posts. I still explain stuff. Just because I don't write mafia essays does not make my few points less valid.

Yes, yes it does. It does if your points are vague.

[Battousai]

Hi, I'm still here guys...

I find it weird that all this hate on Korlash has stayed solely on him. I mean, just about everything he has said that people are voting him for, I have already said. Notice I commented that Fire needs to die today, even if he is townie. Notice I never gave my scum list to Lin. That because I see no merit in it at this stage of the day.

I think the only reason some people (forgot who all is on the wagon right now) are voting Korlash is because he is being more outspoken about it, which, imo, is more townie.

[Battousai]

Scum want more than anything else to lynch a townie, correct?
I didn't say I wanted to hang around for 2 weeks just so I could lynch someone, I wanted to stick around and help town after my inevitable lynch, as at that time, I requested the deadline based on me being lynched. Go back to the time I posted that, I did want the deadline to be reached, I was expecting to be lynched... I had NO hidden agenda, why as scum, would I post more content if my lynch was inevitable???

To appear more townie so as not to get lynched? Is it possible you, as scum, thought if you dragged out the day and added some posts that you could save yourself from being lynched?

And you aren't doing it because...?

?Doing what?

[Battousai]

Sorry for not refreshing my page right before I posted...

The main reason is because I haven't been all to active. The main reason is becausse.... FINALS! Right now, I'm working on a microeconomic analysis of Brazil. Once I get done with that I have to finish my paper on why should the United States establish a National Language. Then I have to finish my multi-state data network that utilzes frame-relay, ospf, and access lists for a made up company that stores data for companies in an off-site storage facility. Not to mention studying for the written finals themselves... Yeah, my plate is pretty full right now.

When I saw votes coming on Korlash for something I also agree with, I had to post what I thought of it.

[Battousai]

The main reason is because I haven't been all to active. The main reason is because.... FINALS! Right now, I'm working on a microeconomic analysis of Brazil. Once I get done with that I have to finish my paper on why should the United States establish a National Language. Then I have to finish my multi-state data network that utilzes frame-relay, ospf, and access lists for a made up company that stores data for companies in an off-site storage facility. Not to mention studying for the written finals themselves... Yeah, my plate is pretty full right now.

Did you make this known in an earlier post that your time was limited?
If so, I did not see it, and apologise wholeheartedly...
If you haven't, then I guess it could have been taken that your were not pursuing your idea's... whereas Korlash was, profusely.

You wanted my reason, I don't care if you take it one way or the other, as it is the truth.

When I saw votes coming on Korlash for something I also agree with, I had to post what I thought of it

Are you reading the entire game, with your limited time?

When I get access to the internet (like right now), I skim the thread after I do X amount of work, then possibly make a short post, then go back to work. Right now, I'm posting more than I want to, because my project I'm currently working on is so boring

[Battousai]

M13's case wasn't weak...

Also, it is not scummy to try and get someone lynched by changing your method of attack to garner more support. He was trying to garner support from people that think you may be town, to lynch you. I don't recall him ever saying you are town or thinking you are town. Just saying IF you are town and IF you are left alive. I don't think he wavered on thinking you are scum, nor have I.

[Battousai]

I believe pushing a case, by altering the plan of attack to garner more support, is not scummy.

Who are you to tell me otherwise??

[Battousai]

Theres too much WIFOM for me to be allowed to live now, and NOT be lynched later.

If you are town you need to be lynched now. Otherwise, if you survive until LYLO or any other endgame scenario, you will probably either be one of the top two candidates or the most likely candidate by yourself. Either way you would then have a good chance of being the lynch, and if town, would lose us the game.

You are basing this ridiculous theory on me being scum right now, and continuing to be scum right the way through the game, presumably, if Im left alive that long after the aforementioned continuing scum-like actions.
You say that if I'm town, I need to die???? WTF?
Earlier in the game I was being battered by almost everyone in the game, so drawing connections will be quite easy if I flipped town, thats a BS reason, end of.
Your case on me seems to be with the claim Ive given, you've continually said I need to be lynched, culminating in "If I'm Town, you need to be lynched". THAT alone should see you higher in the spotlight, as we are still in a healthy position to catch scum before D1 ends. You want this day to end quicker than anyone else, and your reluctance to discuss, calling it anti-town along the way, makes you scummier too. SC has done this to a lesser extent than you, but has backed off after the posts Ive made, joined with most of the replacements posts. For these reasons then, I must...
UNVOTE: VOTE: Korlash.

Started rereading these last few pages on my off day. I found this and thought it is interesting. Contradiction? Possibly. Firestarter admits that if he is left alive today, he will be lynched later. That, with claiming vanilla townie, means that he forsees his mislynch in the future. Now when Korlash wants him lynched because if Fire is town, him being around would result in being mislynched at an inappropriate time (end game), Fire uses it in his case against him.

Korlash thought the same thing Fire did, but now the wagon has stalled, Fire doesn't see his lynch as inevitable and is now fighting to stay alive (which some has called what scum would do, by saying town would give up).

[Battousai]

Korlash-

search your guy on google and find him in any Case Closed Character wiki, as in the page on Wikipedia for example. It normally lists japanese names and english names. (i assume there may be some characters who have both.)

Why do you assume this? Especially after I noted how Fire's claim uses both, yet you thought it was suspicious then.

My flavor is in the English version ala Jimmy over Shinichi. Looking at Firestarter's flavor, he uses the English version for the role name, but switches over to the Japanese version for the flavor...

I can't believe I missed that... Wow... I can;t believe Gorrad would use both English and Japanese versions int he same PM, I definitly can't see him using different versions of Jimmy for PMs either.

Sadly based entirely on that I'm ready to vote him but I don't want to until I have contributed something more then I already have.

SC & Alex-

See Korlash's post


Alex-

You're confusing me...

"He actually resigned to the fact that he wouldn't be lynched. That's different."

"Haven't you ever seen town accept their lynch? Scum would be more desperate to survive."

I think the first one is a typo?? Other than that, it seems you are defending Fire on one issue, then when his position changes on that, you defend it the opposite way. When Fire was "resigned to being lynched", you say that is townie to do. Which would mean not resigning to being lynched is scummy (otherwise it would be a null tell). Now that Firestarter is not resigned to being lynch, you say something along the lines of "Why shouldn't a player not fight to not be lynched, why should they crawl up and die?" Doesn't that make the first thing scummy or at least a null tell?



Firestarter-

"Note the contradiction... he "random voted him for not voting"???"

How is that a contradiction? I random voted him, and my reason was that he didn't want to vote. How is that different from voting someone for, I don't know, just finishing a game containing an enemy to town, named Rage?

"Note that Battousai just makes a general statement, and does not commit to one side or the other regarding BW's on D1.
Instead he questions me about M13's crap-logic saying BW's are only driven by scum.
If Battousai questions me and not M13, isn't it likely he agrees with M13's stance on D1 BW's? That they are only driven by scum?"

I was defending Millar's right to believe that way and that it isn't scummy to believe it.

"He is ignoring everything else, while singling out me with his illogical behaviour/posts."

I believe the only people talking at this stage were you, firestarter, and people that agreed w/ you or agreed w/ millar. Also, it is ironic since you were focused on Millar this entire time.

"Not standing up a bit"

I said DOES not DOES NOT...

"Again, no vote....."

I gave my reason for the unvote. You want to know why it is different from yours on, what page 3? Simple, you were close to a lynch, millar wasn't.

"Again, no vote.....
I refer to this quote of Battousai's...."

Please tell me how saying we need to lynch Fire not pushing a lynch?

"Posts stats about scum not hitting a PR, if I’m lynched, but neglects to post the alternative, that if we catch scum in D1, it lessens the scums numbers, and preserves a townie, which is what this lynching assumption is based off of."

What would you, as an objective player, want- an outted powerrole and a scum lynch D1, or a scum lynch D2?

"This question has been asked many many times, M13, Korlash, Sc and Battousai clearly cannot back this up as to why its a good idea.
Yet Battousai pursues this further on another player?"

I never wanted you lynched for " a lot" of information. What the hell? I thought I was tunnelling on you. I guess I made a mistake and actually questioned someone other than Fire

"And why not say he agrees with Firestarter?
Korlash agreed with you?
You cannot put sanctions on players in this way."

Did Korlash say, "I agree with Battousai." Then end his post? I was just wanting Sajin to post what he thought. If he thought similar to you, he could have posted word for word what you posted. That way, there is no vaguness at all. Not tunnelling you again...

"Clearly Battousai does not like the direction my supposed lynch is taking at this point.
With fresh impetus from the replacements, and previous cases on me being shot down, he then starts to question those taking their votes from me, without actually adding anything as to why I should be lynched.
In Korlash' case, he changed his method of attack once one let him down, but Battousai isn't doing anything to pressure my lynch, he's merely trying to pressure those who have unvoted me."

This is where I can definately see you already made up your mind before you got to this point. I was pressuring Sajin, because he so easily moved his vote to SC, which I felt SC hadn't done anything too scummy (at least not enough to vote). I wasn't trying to get Sajin to revote you. Again, I'm not tunneling you here....

"What points are vague?
Again, pressurising those who believe scum lie elsewhere"

The point where he said he saw a slip. If you bothered to read up a post or so, which I think you did, so you conviently left it off. Why? See where you attacked me for only posting the downside of lynching a vanilla townie, now compare that to here where you leave off the post I question in order to expand your attack and/or some other reason to make your case stronger.

"Again, Battousai doesn't commit to anything here, he is merely making generic statements that may be true, but he doesn't try to back them up.
The fact he ignored Korlash similar post...."

That is how I feel, I was just trying to get whoever I was asking, to admit that it could be a possibility.

"Is another example of his tunnelling and scumminess."

This attack of Korlash seems out of place...

"Having being called out on his infrequent posting by me, he comes across as attacking in his post about doing finals...
If your busy, that’s fair enough, but why did you only feel the need to post this now? After being called out on it?"

As I already said, because you asked me a question, so I answered. I was quite content in not telling anyone I was doing Finals since my semester was going to end soon.

"Battousai states, in so many words, that he's happy about the way Korlash is going about trying to get me lynched. Whether I’m town or scum.
For me, either both or one of them know my alignment, the push on me being lynched cannot be solely town driven, imho.
It seems to be without consideration of what everyone else has posted, and that is anti-town in my book. Everyday."

If I was scum and new you to be not scum, I would assume you told the truth and then proceede to try and get you lynched. Why? Because as I have already said, I think that vanilla townie claim on D1 needs to be lynched, and not following that as scum would be suspicious.

"1. I was otherwise engaged with the now missing M13..."

You were tunnelling? I thought my supposed tunnelling on you was scummy? So is it ok if you do it, but not me?

Alex (again)-

I was also gone when the whole thing happened, so if I wasn't I would have said my vote was random earlier. But of course we can't know that, and can only speculate if I would have.

Refreshed the page this time

[Battousai]

Alex- I think that he was trying to help his scum play, by making a meta of not voting in the RVS. That is not scummy nor townie, thus null. Same as smelling like your socks is null. Though, his non vote is what made me choose him over anyone else.


And yes, I do think Fire is scum.

[Battousai]

Kairyuu- What I don't understand, though, is your vote. Why not take it back off until you have time to tell us why you voted for him in the first place. Why are you so deadset in leaving it on him?

[Battousai]

While I agree with your logic in your last post, I donot understand how you interpret SC's last post as OMGUS. How do you define OMGUS?

Korlash-

Read post 473 or at least the top of it, as I asked you a question there that you haven't answered.

[Battousai]

*and when I say last post, I meant the vote Fire post, not post 502.

[Battousai]

Could you please give me a list of all your attacks on SC and all his on you?

[Battousai]

OMGUS- Sudden voting or pressuring of someone as a response to that someone voting/pressuring you. Usually done in greater amounts then original pressure in an attempt to get pressure off.

Then by that token, do you think SC is feeling pressure from you. SC has only 1 vote on him, and is no where near being lynched. Do you think SC is only attacking you for attacking him? Do you think what you said about Fire is scummy or that saying that it is, is not a valid point?

[Battousai]

What you said about fire- the 80/20 post

Do you think that it could be scummy? Or if someone thinks it[the 80/20 post] is scummy, it is not a valid point. Basically do you think SC saying that you were suspicious from the 80/20 post is valid?

[Battousai]

"He acts like a judge asking here and there"

Is that scummy/townie/null?

[Battousai]

Lind- What is the difference between a town reaction and a scum reaction, to being called scum and/or voted for no posted reason?

[Battousai]

He is still first in the votecount if I'm not mistaken so it wouldn't be a good tactic if he were scum... However, your attempt to make him look scummy for just anything is noted.

Your attempt to make him look townie for just anything is noted.

But seriously, WIFOM completely. In fact scum could skip out while ahead to dodge any last minute questions and discussion, and to leave their vote on someone without having to explain why it was kept to deadline. I'm pretty sure it is a nulltell.

[Battousai]

"id he question me? NO! he just fosed me before I could even post my thoughts. I believe he saw it as a threat to the assembled Fire lynch.
dude... You said SC and me were scum and that I OMGUS him??? How does that make sense?"

I'd like to point out this is wrong. SC fos'd you after your second post, where you call Fire town and the threat to anyone who hammers (I believe that would be consider a thought of yours). Therefore, SC had a right to Fos you if he found that scummy.

"Do you know what that FoS is for? For saying "smart mislynch". Serious dude..."

So this states you know SC FoS'd you for one of your thoughts, its just that you don't agree with SC that it was scummy.

"You're saying nothing here. You're just tossing accusations dude. If you say something explain why... I could just go with...
"kairyuu sucks, he doesn't make sense, his vote is crap, he is scum" but that wouldn't be valid because I wouldn't be backing up my statement. "

I don't get what was wrong with that. My interpretation was that you were basically testing the waters by making as many cases as you can, which is more likely to come from scum than town.

FoS: Alex

These answers have really taken away from your defense of Kairyuu's case.

[Battousai]

You don't see what's wrong with saying my cases are crap and that Im buddying, bussing, talking crap, without saying what he is referring to?
When I'm testing the waters? How?
And if you mean that asking questions and investigating more than 1 person is scummy then you're the one who's making scummy statements... What do you want me to do? Tunnel vision? That IS scummy. I'm gonna be open minded and look for evidence for myself. Not follow up on another guy's post without saying anything relevant.

I was talking about the first half of the quote you listed -

Now we get to your "long post," which is allll over the place. There is no cohesive argument in there. It's pretty much just you trying to fling as much crap on as many people as you can. Possibly trying to see what sticks so you can press further.

I see nothing wrong with that. Playing mafia, you have to take into account how other players play it. Now, from his POV, he sees you doing that and saying that is scummy, from his perspective, is ok. Also note that I never agreed with the statement, just that there is nothing wrong with it.

The reason why I FoS'd you was not based on Kairyuu's case, but more of your defense of it. I found it suspicious how you word things, as in-

Did he question me? NO! he just fosed me before I could even post my thoughts. I believe he saw it as a threat to the assembled Fire lynch.
dude... You said SC and me were scum and that I OMGUS him??? How does that make sense

[Battousai]

EBWOP:

Accidentally hit entered prematurely... continuing off last quote...

Before you could post thoughts. You make it sound like you didn't even make a statement before he FoS'd you, while in actuallity you had a post about Fire being town and wanting to stop a smart mislynch. Then when Kairyuu mentioned it, you dismissed the reason of SC's FoS.

[Battousai]

Why is the wording suspicious?

Answered that in my last post. "You make it sound like you didn't even make a statement before he FoS'd you, while in actuallity you had a post about Fire being town and wanting to stop a smart mislynch."

So, you're gonna excuse him for POV? Then no one is responsible for making clear, explained cases because they're entitled to a point of view?

I saw nothing wrong with the case, did I agree with it? No. Notice I said I gave you a FoS because of your defence to the accusations and not the accusations themselves. If you make a clear, explained case, more often then not the only one who has a problem with the case is the person the case is against. From POV, you can see how they come to that conclusion, and if you can't then something is wrong with the case.

Ok. Then why you never excused fire like that? Why don't you excuse me like that? Isn't it my POV?

See last quote. I found your response questionable, as from your point of view, I don't see why you would exaggerate a case/defense the way you did.

NO. We should be obliged to present cases that explain what we mean. otherwise we're just being anti-town.

I never disputed that. Why would looking at someone's POV excuse from making a case with no meaning? I wanted Kairyuu to make a case or unvote. You aren't making any sense.

In the same lines of Kairyuu's post... I could make every single player in the game scummy if I wanted... even those who havent posted. You just gotta say some unsupported, opinionated stuff and look really convinced.

Kairyuu made an opionated case WITH support. Now if you do what you suggested, that would be scummy since you accuse everyone without reasoning.

Exactly. He fosed me for saying "smart mislynch"! come on...

and then when I accused him he suddenly starts seeing me as more and more scummy. He thinks the "everyone" thing called out by millar is a "very good" (without saying why of course) when he had previously said that Fire was only a good case and finally he votes for me.

If you don't find that highly relevant then I don't know what else to say to you.

The italicized is irrelevant to the point at hand (SC fos'ing you). I believe he FoS'd you for already calling Fire town at the page you were at. How does anything you just posted in response to that quote relate to you lieing/exagerating on the "Before you could post thoughts."? Nothing, you are just going around the issue.

[Battousai]

Weird.

Kairyuu says something along the lines of "town would react to a crap case against them with a sense of saying the person is confused town and not scum pushing a crap case." Then when Alexhans hears this, he completely drops the issue with Kairyuu and says something along the lines of "Kairyuu is the kind of person who would try that." And then he drops the subject all together.

1) scum points for Kairyuu. Trying to act scummy to get reactions is scum defence for making a mistake.

2) I would say if I thought someone was pushing a crap case against me, I wouldn't be calling them confused town, I would be calling them suspicious, and then vote them depending on how long they push it. Actually, I think I would call them confused town, but only if I knew they were town and I wanted them to ease off of the attacks on me. But this is all WIFOM, so null points to Alexhans.

3) If someone pushed a crap case against me, and then say "I was just trying to get a reaction!" I wouldn't excuse them and drop the subject. I would pursue them further, put them on the defensive for their supposed gambit. Alexhans gets scum points for just dropping it.

[Battousai]

Look dude... based on his meta It doesn't seem totally weird that he does something like that. Besides, me dropping the case has to do with me being ABSOLUTELY TIRED of that back and forth I'm suspecting few will read.

So his meta is like that, so it is not strange he would do this as townie? What about Millar? Supposedly (I say supposedly because I haven't used meta this game), Millar's play has been improving each game he plays in, and this game he hasn't done anything scummy do to his meta. Do you not believe in Millar's meta?

You assign scum points to everyone in your judge like manner. Instead of making a case you attack people who are fighting... and if they stop fighting you attack them because of it. You're looking similar to SC in that you keep your distance but trash others when it's convenient regardless of what they might say. And, in this case, you try to make us both look bad.

Why should I make a case? I didn't call you scum or Kairyuu scum. I just pointed out what I found suspicious. You wanted more information, and when I give it you don't like me sharing (probably because it reads negatively against you). What do you want me to do? Sit back and watch two people fight and not comment on it?

Now when you say "they", you are talking about yourself and Kairyuu as I haven't "attacked" anyone else because they stop fighting.

and regarding this point

3) If someone pushed a crap case against me, and then say "I was just trying to get a reaction!" I wouldn't excuse them and drop the subject. I would pursue them further, put them on the defensive for their supposed gambit. Alexhans gets scum points for just dropping it.

I had a town feel on him, what's your read?. You give me scumpoints because I don't follow your playstyle? Wasn't that your case on Fire... that he was attacking millar's playing theories instead of millar himself?

Here is your thought process:
YOU wouldn't do that... I don't do what you would... I gain scum points...

Cool.

I found it suspicious, so what? I see no, feesible reason why a townie would just shrug off what Kairyuu did to you, especially after your reaction to it. You went from outraged to calm with just a "scummy to get reactions" post.

And you know nothing of my case. You took one thing I said to Fire and make it my "case"? What the hell? I was defending Millar, not attacking Fire. Get your facts straight next time.

Weird.

Kairyuu says something along the lines of "town would react to a crap case against them with a sense of saying the person is confused town and not scum pushing a crap case." Then when Alexhans hears this, he completely drops the issue with Kairyuu and says something along the lines of "Kairyuu is the kind of person who would try that." And then he drops the subject all together.

That is not what I said at all. I determined that, based on alexhans' reactions, I believe him to be town. It has nothing to do with the validity of either case, and everything to do with his reactions to the statements I made that provided nothing in the line of a case, but everything in the line of pressure. That he dropped the issue says nothing about him, because he did not call me scummy at any point. He was on the defensive, not on a counterattack.

You were trying to get reactions, you presented a crap case (or a meh case to get his ire up, as you call it) and determined him townie for not thinking you are scum (which is a counterattack, you wouldn't counterattack someone who is town). Same thing I said, but more "nicer"? I guess.

1) scum points for Kairyuu. Trying to act scummy to get reactions is scum defence for making a mistake.

I was not acting scummy to get reactions. Hell, I wasn't acting scummy at all. I was providing hyperaggressive pressure in order to determine his alignment. This is what I do.

Tags Fixed! -Mod

So you think attacking someone with a "meh" case isn't scumm?

2) I would say if I thought someone was pushing a crap case against me, I wouldn't be calling them confused town, I would be calling them suspicious, and then vote them depending on how long they push it. Actually, I think I would call them confused town, but only if I knew they were town and I wanted them to ease off of the attacks on me. But this is all WIFOM, so null points to Alexhans.

This is totally speculation, and there is absolutely no point in bringing it up if your decision is that it's null anyway.

I found three points of interest and I addressed three points. Why bring this up if you don't find me bringing it up scummy or town motivation?

3) If someone pushed a crap case against me, and then say "I was just trying to get a reaction!" I wouldn't excuse them and drop the subject. I would pursue them further, put them on the defensive for their supposed gambit. Alexhans gets scum points for just dropping it.

Note that he never once called me scummy while I was attacking him. If he would have changed his stance as soon as I dropped the case,

then

that would have looked like opportunism to me.

But you don't think he

knew

you were a townie and wanted you to ease off of the attacks by calling you townie?

Also, why bring this up

after

I have dropped the case. If you thought my case was crap, then why did you FoS alexhans instead of going after me?

I didn't know you were pressuring alexhans with a "meh" case to get his reactions until you told us you were pressuring alexhans with a "meh" case to get his reactions. I never said your case was crap, I was talking in the perspective of Alexhans as he thougt your case was crap. Though, your case wasn't strong, it did have points that held merit.

Alexhans-

How am I keeping my distance? I'm pretty sure me posting my thoughts has brought attention to myself.

[Battousai]

*taps fingers impatiently*

Wasn't Night supposed to hit 4 hours ago?

impatient to get your ability in? Thanks for softclaiming.

He either has a night action, or is interested in Fire's flip. I wonder which...?

[Battousai]

Sorry I haven't posted much today. I've been sick, so since I feel better today I will try and catch up.


I'm not in support of getting Lin to claim, at least not until madeofphail says why.

madeofphail you need to claim, I have reasons to believe you to be scum! See that doesn't make you want to go as scum: "damn, I'm scum and better make a case as to not claim or come up with a fake claim" or as town: "I don't want anyone to think I am scum, I better claim that I'm town."

[Battousai]

@624: Battou agrees wit Sajin, apparently.

He either has a night action, or is interested in Fire's flip. I wonder which...?

Either not understanding what I typed or misrep. I'm thinking it's the former for now. I do not agree with Sajin at all on that subject.

I am highly confident that there is at least one scum among that list of lurkers.

Disagree. Lurking = nulltell, unless they are actively lurking. Hmm... Madeofphail posted right after the Kairyuu post on lurking. Then he doesn't answer kairyuu's question:

How many people need to disagree with you before you listen to reason?

and instead wants Lindis to claim, which gets Kairyuu to unvote and go with his plan, and forgetting his own question.

FoS: madeofphail

Lindis claims, and surprise, surprise, surprise (cookie for anyone who gets the quote ) he claims a powerrole.

Madeofphail: Lindis is scum because there can't be two trackers in a detective show themed game? Note that this is a detective show themed game, you became another role so there technically was only 2 trackers during N1, Kairyuu didn't die last night. Why did none of these things go through your mind before you wanted lindis to claim (I know the 2 tracker is after the claim bit) and for everyone voting Lindis- or through your mind before voting Lindis?

[Battousai]

Then you intentionally misrep'd? If you understood what I meant, then why did you say I agreed with Sajin?

[Battousai]

Ok, you never said when you reread, so I assumed you would reread during night/right after night flip. I also did notice apparently. You may have thought it to be odd, you still said I agreed.

Anyways....

You said yesterday that by me not going into the fight and only commenting on it afterwards all that was scummy about it, I was trying to stay in background (paraphrasing). Do you still believe that, even though by me saying what I thought brings out people to defend themselves/attack me for it?

[Battousai]

Not trying to outguess the mod, but why would Hershel make the drug that turns Jimmy to Conan? In the show, Conan tries to get a sample of the drug so that Hershel can make an antidote. It makes no sense in that fashion. Another thing, why would a player be given the task to use the drug on another player? The player would only have a 1 in 11 chance of finding Jimmy. What I think is that Jimmy was turned into Conan by... THE MOD after N1 or by the scum (We would like to turn Jimmy into Conan tonight).

I was on the fence, especially since I feel it is bad play by madeofphail to try and out someone on D2 because they targeted someone (and that person wasn't the deceased). Then Lin claimed tracker and later as what I would call an inventor (makes since with role), but when you claimed you turned Jimmy into Conan, that just screams liar.

Vote: Lindisfarne

Alexhans- From yesterday only, my biggest suspects were (not including Fire): Sajin and millar13.

[Battousai]

A couple people on this vote said they would post cases today and did not. They are likely scum regardless of the flip of the lynchee.

Bad logic. Maybe if you would have called them out on it by name and not some people, they would have gladly done it. We won't know now, but maybe if you ask for it tommorrow they will.

Alex- Why the hammer? Why not use today for discussion like you wanted us to do yesterday? Why was the Firewagon stalled so much and this one was over so quick?

[Battousai]

Korlash- What are you talking about?

Sajin- See post 705. Literally, you said they were likely scum.

Alexhans- The only difference from yesterday and today is that we have two claims. No one was talking... maybe you could have tried to get people to talk by asking them questions if you were so concerned with it? Also, why would we lynch made if lin turns up town? The game can be perfectly balanced with two trackers, especially if one is turned vig. The only thing that makes Lin scum, imo, is his role name matched up to his abilities. In fact, if Lin didn't claim he gave madeofphail the drug I would be against this lynch.

[Battousai]

Korlash- the picture thing. I guess I didn't notice it. I don't know what it could mean. Serena Sebastian is Rachel's friend, but Vivian is Jimmy's mother. They are obviously not the same person...

Alex- True I could have, if I had been on. I could have unvoted. But alas, my time restraint I had at the time didn't allow me to come to this game and unvote during your deadline. Personally, I want this lynch to go through, but I do want some more discussion. Enough discussion so that questions that are pertinent to the lynch can be addressed.

Also, I don't think you answered the inconsistancy between Lin's story and made's. Is it where you say lin night acted on 2 people and only said he had acted on 1 then admitted doing both? If so, how is this an inconsistancy between the two stories?

[Battousai]

I don't know man. I'm set on this lynch and no one tried to contradict those who voted lindis because it's a good case. Made's certainty will definetly be scummy if lindis is not scum. And the fact that he is kinda absent.

How is that an inconsistency and why is one of them auto scum if the other is town? Don't avoid answering this again.

[Battousai]

Is that true, madeofphail?

[Battousai]

Just like to point out, the first to suggest massclaim should be the first to claim, IMO. Also, I'm waiting on clarification from the mod on a question I asked him, as I think I know who the last scum is based on the answer.

[Battousai]

I believe what kor was talking about was replacing mass roleclaim with mass nameclaim.

Also, not everyone has posted yet, so it is a bit premature to actually start the claiming process.

Kairyuu: You don't have to be the SK, but it is one way to interpret last night's kill and the lack of one N1. Also, Shiho Miyano sounds like a safeclaim for Akemi Miyano (which would be a decent pick for SK).

[Battousai]

Umm. Can you explain the kill flavor "Magicked" as applied to either of those characters?...
Either way, I'm not seeing any references to magic, and I'm completely stumped as to who would have that kill flavor.

Umm, if you feel there are no characters that have a reference ot magic, why would I need explain the flavor magicked to ANY role? Personally, I see magic as a drug since the magicians in the games are just that, magicians. Magician magic can't kill you and leave no apparent cause, where as real magic and drugs, do. If you used a fakeclaim and your real claim is Akemi, then it is possible that you used a drug on alexhans that killed him

Sajin: I suggest we should be waiting for Millar to become active before continuing the nameclaims/roleclaims/whatever claim.

[Battousai]

@Batt:

Umm, if you feel there are no characters that have a reference ot magic, why would I need explain the flavor magicked to ANY role? Personally, I see magic as a drug since the magicians in the games are just that, magicians. Magician magic can't kill you and leave no apparent cause, where as real magic and drugs, do. If you used a fakeclaim and your real claim is Akemi, then it is possible that you used a drug on alexhans that killed him

1. That is not what I said. I said I was not seeing any references to magic in my actual role or the role you claim I'm faking to hide.

2. Explain to me how Akemi would have the Magicked flavor, and not the Drugged, or something similar, flavor if she was gonna use drugs to kill. Then, explain why she would use drugs to kill. I do not know this character, and google is giving me no reason to believe that either my role or Akemi would be killers, as both of them turned against the Black Organization, with the only difference being that Akemi was killed by Gin and my role escaped in the form of a child.

1. You said those exact words, I just took words out of the middle. I then referenced the two roles (the one you claim and the possible safeclaim of Akemi).

2. As I already said, I don't think any character can do magic, and thus drugged would be the best bet.

3. What roles would use magic then? As you said, you found none. Therefore there has to be 1 or there is none and drugged is a good substitute.

4. You are getting pretty defensive here about nothing. I was just making talk while waiting for the millar to post. Notice how I never FoS'd you or voted you. All I basically said was that Sajin's theory is possible and since you roleclaimed I gave an opinion on what COULD be not IS or MOST LIKELY or whatever it is that is making you so defensive.

Also, why is everyone giving there roles? If there are any powerroles that wish to remain secret, it would be easy for scum to pick it. I thought we were doing mass NAME claim.

[Battousai]

Ok, got my question answered. The answer was less than satisfactory, so I do not know who is scum from it.

[Battousai]

@Batt:

1. You said those exact words, I just took words out of the middle. I then referenced the two roles (the one you claim and the possible safeclaim of Akemi).

The words in the middle provided the context. I was making the point that I didn't see how either of the characters you think I might be would use the kill flavor that killed alexhans.

You also said you didn't see any character that would use magic, thus expecting me to tell you how ANY character would use magic is trying to defend yourself from the kill because of magic (something every character could do).

We can also bring reasoning into it. Why would I kill alexhans when a) he has never once called me scummy, and b) I have declared in-thread that I find him pro-town?

A) WIFOM B) If your scum, it doesn't matter if you called him the freaking pope.

2. As I already said, I don't think any character can do magic, and thus drugged would be the best bet.

You missed the second bit. Why would either of the characters use drugs to kill, especially Akemi, who I couldn't even find any real info on other than that she died?

I bet with a billion yen you could get some good drugs, that and her sister was a chemist. Could have stole it like the money. Any of those possible? I think so.

3. What roles would use magic then? As you said, you found none. Therefore there has to be 1 or there is none and drugged is a good substitute.

I actually found some info on wikipedia, and there are two character's under the label Magic Kaito Characters. Since the flavor from the N2 kills show alexhans as being Kaito, the only other one left would be Saguro Hakuba. I figured that this would be a dead end too, since on the front page it said that Isacc was Richard Moore/Saguro Hakuba, but then when I looked at the kill flavor, I noticed that it was a picture of Hakuba that was found on Isacc's body. Also, the mod's flavor after that was interesting:

The oddest thing, though, was the picture of Saguro Hakuba he had on him. What he could want with Hakuba, though, one can only speculate...

This implies, at least to me, that Saguro Hakuba is probably in the game, and, if so, is probably scum, likely SK.

If so, then how come there was no magic on the body, you left out that Issac died by being shot, like madeofphail.

4. You are getting pretty defensive here about nothing. I was just making talk while waiting for the millar to post. Notice how I never FoS'd you or voted you. All I basically said was that Sajin's theory is possible and since you roleclaimed I gave an opinion on what COULD be not IS or MOST LIKELY or whatever it is that is making you so defensive.

How am I getting defensive? Your reasoning doesn't make much sense to me, so I'm attempting to either understand it or debunk it.

You started getting defensive when I said your role could be a safeclaim. There is nothing to debunk there or nothing to defend against, yet you found a way to turn it up a notch.

@all: Nameclaims tell us nothing. The point of a massclaim is to confirm enough townies for an easy win or to notice a role combo that wins us the game. Simple nameclaims are not gonna do that. Please do as SC and I have and fullclaim. I'm trying to break this game (bringing my total up to 4)

I like nameclaims first, then roleclaims. If scum goes first, it increases the chance to be outted (usually scum would pick a minor role in the theme to avoid a counter).

[Battousai]

Joseph Meguire

flavor- time in force given me experience, much better than a gun or paperwork

[Battousai]

@Batt:

You also said you didn't see any character that would use magic, thus expecting me to tell you how ANY character would use magic is trying to defend yourself from the kill because of magic (something every character could do).

And then I did more research, and found this shiny little thing labeled "Magic Kaito Characters."

At the time when this first became posted, I believe you didn't say anything about Magic Kaito Characters (which are magicians who use tricks. I'm pretty sure none of them uses real 'magic').

A) WIFOM B) If your scum, it doesn't matter if you called him the freaking pope.

WIFOM is not an explanation for anything. Don't be lazy. Analyze this "WIFOM." Which of the scenerios is more likely? Calling it WIFOM and discarding it is a cop out.

Also, scum killing their allies close to lylo is extremely stupid. Why would I kill someone I could almost definitely count on for support in lylo, and leave the wildcards alive?

A) Killing someone who hasn't called you scummy and using it as an excuse later. Also, Alexhans was a powerrole, scum might have wanted all powerroles dead. A dead Alexhans could also be attributed to framing SC, as you already pointed out when you voted him in the very first post of the day.

B) He was a powerrole. So you can use it as a defense. Not many people of the ones that are alive actually have been attacking you or calling you scummy. So killing alexhans wouldn't be that big of a loss.[/quote]

I bet with a billion yen you could get some good drugs, that and her sister was a chemist. Could have stole it like the money. Any of those possible? I think so.

Did she escape with the money? If I recall, she got shot before she could get away. Also, drugs =/= magic. Is that really so hard to understand? Are you trying to say that Gorrad would put Magicked as a kill flavor instead of Drugged if the victim was drugged?

Do not know. Possible there was traces of 'real' magic in the drug, and I'm saying magician =/= 'real' magic (which can kill people). I haven't read up on Gorrand so anything is possible. Gorrad said the body was in perfect health, which could be attributed to drugs.

If so, then how come there was no magic on the body, you left out that Issac died by being shot, like madeofphail.

The kill flavor is irrelevent to my point. Having the picture on him implies that he, a cop, was investigating the person in the picture. My conclusion from that is that Saguro Hakuba is in the game and scum.

I thought you meant Saguro, as the SK, killed Isaac.

You started getting defensive when I said your role could be a safeclaim. There is nothing to debunk there or nothing to defend against, yet you found a way to turn it up a notch.

At this point I'm just arguing for the sake of arguing. Your theories don't make sense, and I am therefore now trying to convince you that you are wrong.

Since when is arguing just to argue a good thing? It muddys up the water on purpose. You are trying to convince me that I am wrong in thinking that it is possible your claim could be a safeclaim. Yeah, not going to happen.

@millar: I doubt there is a doc in the setup. If there is, either they were roleblocked N2 or are bad since two outed powerroles were killed.

[Battousai]

Millar: I don't recall you ever claiming doc, but I'm guessing you have claimed that at least now. After the flavor claims get done, we will need to know who you targetted each night.

[Battousai]

N1, N2 - who did you target exactly. I'm guessing N2 was Sajin from your last post.

[Battousai]

If Gorrad keeps the drug the way it is in the show, then the drug can only turn the victim earlier. Personally, I think that Lin used the fact that Jimmy turned into Conan as a way to make him look more indispensable. It is totally possible that the role would always turn to Conan after N1 or that the scum had the ability to turn Jimmy into Conan (maybe thinking that Jimmy would be a cop and Conan a tracker/watcher or weaker cop). That doesn't explain the second part though. Does anyone else have two names or anything that would hint to it in their role pm?

[Battousai]

Also, look at the mafia death and the town death. The townies drop something that links them to someone else. The scum disguise themselves as someone else. Jimmy was AKA Conan, but Issac had a picture, Firestarter had a picture, and alex had a key. Since no one has claimed Serena Sebastian, Saguru Hakuba, Hershel Agasa, Konosuke Jii, or Booker Kudo they are not in the game. There has to be some reason for them to be mentioned, though.

[Battousai]

Sajin- you didn't post a sig lol.

There is a point in a theme game when theme and mechanics get crossed. The drug works in a specific way in the show but it would only work in a 'similar' way in a game of mafia. It has to be changed to fit the way mafia works.

If the drug only worked on the two characters it did in the show then it would be a pretty worthless power for the scum. Especially seeing as how the second character it works on is a vanilla anyways. In order for it to be an effective targeting ability the scum have to be able to use it on everyone, thusly he idea that town turns into the second character is a good idea.

In the show the drug changed people to their younger self, so I do not think the same drug that is in the show is in this game as it would, as you say, be worthless. But when Made claimed he was turned into Conan, I think Lin saw an opportunity to look more valuable and to counter the fact that made had counterclaimed him. It is more likely that Agasa would be an inventor and be similar to a jack of all trades, and thus decided to come up with a way to make him look like he can do more than just track. Personally, I think made had a role that would change after using his ability once or after a certain amount of nights.

There are other things. Maybe the scum were given the option to simply change Jimmy (and not told who he was for example) This would both be pointless and sorta unneeded. The scum just have to choose between yes and no? What kind of ability is that? Might as well just make Phail's role a self changer after a period of phases.

Well, maybe vodka (doubt that as it was the inactive role) or as a group gets to decide to turn a player with the role Jimmy into Conan. Personally, if I was told that I would think since Jimmy worked with the cops and was really respected, he must have a very powerful role and that Conan, though just as smart as Jimmy, had less respect and had to hide his sleuthing ability, would be weaker.

[Battousai]

I think tonight is going to tell a lot, unfortunately scum have a chance to alter it to their liking.

I have a theory that is a pretty far stretch, while we are waiting for more flavor posts and Millar's actions. What if, what if alexhans isn't dead? After all he is the kaito kid. The body is in perfect health, yet it is dead. The Kaito kid is a master magician, maybe he is doing a trick to make him look like he is dead. Maybe he will come back later. Maybe he WAS attacked by someone and instead of dieing he did a trick to make him look dead, but it canceled out his magic to make him look like his butler, which is why he had his butler's key as he needed to live in his butler's house to make people think he was who he tried to make them believe he was. But then that would mean that alexhans lied, which would either mean the mod restricted him to not claiming kaito kid, or that he is scum. Man, a lot of explanations, some not very likely, that might give us an explanation after one more night.

[Battousai]

True, there is the thought of ghost voting and ghost manipulation. But like I said, the night will give us a lot of information or little depending on what actually happens.

[Battousai]

I thought we were all flavor claiming, then role claiming? Why don't we wait until after this before actually lynching people. I'm going to go back and see where we are at with this and post everyone's names, flavor, and roles for my next post.

[Battousai]

Well for one, if we lynch now and it is a mislynch, it could result in a 1 town v 1 mafia v 1 sk (4 v 1 v 1 now, mislynch makes it 3 v 1 v 1, two townie deaths makes it 1 v 1 v 1). Another is that we may not pick up on it again and some people have not went all the way through.

Anyways, as I said here we are at with the claims and any information I found

Korlash- Harley Hartwell, I have a lot going on for myself with my detective job, but it's not going to be of much help here. I do have a vote though so I should be careful with it.

Sajin- Vanilla Townie, Rachel Kudo, I got myself into a fine mess. Perhaps jimmy will show up, in the meantime I need to help my dad.

Millar13- Doc, Eva Kadan

StrangerCoug- Vanilla Townie, Sumiko Kobayashi, Some of my students have called me a witch, but I've actually been nicer over the years. I have nothing special other than the change of heart.

Kairyuu- Vanilla Townie, Shiho Miyano, I'm done with the Black Organization, and I want revenge on them. All I've got is my vote, but I'm gonna put it to good use.

Battousai- Joseph Meguire, time in force given me experience, much better than a gun or paperwork

Millar needs to flavor claim and both you and me need to role claim yet.

Mod: Could you prod SC please?

[Battousai]

Korlash- I see what you are saying Korlash, maybe we should wait until tommorrow.

I also like how you basically call me scum for being cautious with rushing the vote

Wait, Gorrad's track record is for more than 4 scum? Then that would mean at least what, 5? Then that would mean 2 alive mafia 1 sk? Then today is lylo. If it's 3 more alive mafia then we would have lost already. I think 5 scum is alot for a 12 player game, don't you think? This is all moot anyways...

Millar has claimed flavor, what have you deduced from it? Do you think Eva could be a doc? What character would you expect to be a doc?

Millar- I looked at the games you are in now, most of them I don't even know if you are in it due to your last post, but I speculate you are in about 3 other games that are actually active. Personally, when I play that many games and I have a doc role in a mini, I remember who I used it on.

Why did you protect me and Korlash? Why did you pick Korlash over alexhans or made?

[Battousai]

Again, please tell us WHY you picked me and korlash to protect.

[Battousai]

Don't like that reasoning. Why did you think scum would kill me N1 and scum would kill Korlash N2. I'm pretty sure we weren't obv town.

[Battousai]

Don't like that reasoning. Why did you think scum would kill me N1 and scum would kill Korlash N2. I'm pretty sure we weren't obv town.

[Battousai]

Vote: Millar

L-1

[Battousai]

Oops, forgot to say why.

You went with a gut feeling on who you felt were town, instead of going with the most likely people to get targetted by scum. You failed to protect either powerroles, illogical doc behavior.

[Battousai]

dont threaten to hammer yourself. just do it; "If you point that gun at someone, you better be prepared to shoot." or something like that.

[Battousai]

I know. Self hammering doc that failed to protect two outted powerroles... /if millar is town.

[Battousai]

I doubt it... 3 kills last night (1 scum, 1 town vig, 1 other). Millar could be scum or other, imo.

[Battousai]

That sux, why did someone so immature have to get a powerrole in this game...

[Battousai]

Yes! Kairyuu was killed. I felt that if there was a SK who killed N2 and not N1, it was Kairyuu, because he was roleblocked N1. More in a bit, going to go fishing.

[Battousai]

I wonder why Kairyuu was killed over the unclaimed, potential power roles. Is it because me or Korlash are scum, or is it that someone was threatened by Kairyuu, or possibly both?

I wonder, why no magic'd N1. Inactivity or on purpose.

Here are some data. Below is the length of each night. Note that N1 and N3 were rather short compared to N2. From this, I gather that either the SK couldn't kill N1 or that the SK chose to kill no one. So, I speculate that the SK would be active during all three nights. The only two people that posted during night on all three nights was myself, and Korlash.

N1: May 6, 12:17am; May 7, 9:24pm
N2: May 14, 11:46pm; May 18, 11:01pm
N3: May 25, 12:14am; May 25, 11:21am

StrangerCoug- N1, N2
Battousai- N1, N2, N3
Korlash- N1, N2, N3
Sajin- N1, N2

IGMEOY: Korlash

[Battousai]

the mafia roleblocker blocked Kairyuu, so that doesn't count for N1. That would mean that the SK targetted me N1, thus my innocence. So, either I'm innocent and/or what I previously said.

[Battousai]

As I said, either the SK chose not to act (sent in kill no one), wasn't allowed to kill N1, or targetted me and when I was doc protected.

[Battousai]

Korlash- That is why I didn't call you suspicious, just that IGMEOY. I'm just paying attention to you right now. Also, N3 is the most telling, as it only lasted a little over 11 hours. That would have to mean that the SK and any remaining powerroles had to be on at that time. We know FOR SURE, that both of us were online (which doesn't help the SK if neither of us is it and one of us is a watcher as you say).


Also, forgot to add

FoS: SC

. Yes a no lynch may be the best bet for today, but we don't need to rush today. Especially since Sajin is on V/LA for a bit.

[Battousai]

More than likely it is, but you can't be certain. Anyways, there is no need to rush today.

[Battousai]

I already put my input in, so I'm just waiting for others to comment/post thoughts on what is what.

Are you saying that since the SK knows there is probably going to be a no lynch today, we should vote?

SC's character is a teacher. Since Conan is a child, he has to go to school, and SC is his teacher. The teacher takes an active role with Conan's detective group.

To continue roleclaiming- I'm a vanilla townie; your turn Korlash.

[Battousai]

What am I supposed to say, if I already said what I wanted to and one person isn't even on?

[Battousai]

Or the SK chose not to act N1.

[Battousai]

That doesn't make sense. If I'm the prime target, then you can predict that the SK will kill me. Ok I get that part, but saying a no lynch would harm the town because town would need two votes. So, you are saying it would be easier to lynch the SK in a 3 v 1 setup over a 2 v 1 setup? Wouldn't it be harder since the SK gets to hide between 3 townies over 2 and town have a 1 in 3 chance of correctly voting for the SK.

[Battousai]

But what if we mislynch and I'm still alive tomorrow?

[Battousai]

EBWOP: No lynch, not mislynch.

[Battousai]

How is paranoia a scum trait?

[Battousai]

So you are saying I am more likely the SK who, when still alive tomorrow, is worried about how people react to it, over a townie who is concerned over WIFOM?

[Battousai]

Actually, if there is a mafia left then both the mafia member and the SK need to claim. It helps everyone; mafia, SK, and town.

[Battousai]

Korlash- What's the harm in asking? None. And when someone does ask, it is not pro-town to give reasons to the scum for not doing it.

[Battousai]

Korlash-

There is always a chance that scum would claim so that they can plan whether or not to kill. You just gave them reasons on why they should not, that is not protown and is hurtful to the town if the mafia didn't think of it until you said it, and decided not to do it.

If you are the last mafia, you don't want to claim first and get killed.

Saying it wastes time and arguing against it, is kind of wasting time as well since if we all just claimed Not Mafia as SC said, it could have been all said and done and we could have moved past it by now.

Yes, I put in what I already wanted to say, and I was waiting on people to post their comments so I can reply to it. That was when people weren't posting and I was waiting for replies. If you think I am scummy for saying that and then not posting anything about Sajin's flip argument right away, then say it. Don't subtly say it.

Could you give us a few of your recent games that people have wanted to make sure there wasn't a sk and mafia at endgame?

Sajin-

I see what you were saying, going from no lynch and then bringing up the possibility of 2 scum factions left is opposite thinking. But... when you come up with a plan of action, it is best to look at it from different stand points- what can happen. SC has done this, so I think he is more likely trying to be thorough.

Did you even read the possible outcomes? Only two of six possibilities involved no lynching and only one of the two is a worse outcome compared to voting.

[Battousai]

Ok, here are the roles in one of the two Gorrad mini games on this site (the other was jester/2 mafia):

Serial Killer
Mafia Cop
Mafia Traitor
Mafia RB
Mafia Godfather
Death Note Jester
Bulletproof Townie
Mason
Doctor
Vanilla Townie
Cop
PR Giver

There was 3 mafia and a SK, but it was balanced out by traitor, jester, bulletproof townie, and a PR Giver. I'm willing to bet that Gorrad didn't create the setup of 3 mafia, 1 sk without putting in more balance than just a 1 shot vig/tracker/cop/doc.



I'd say it would be best to no lynch at the end of today.

[Battousai]

Ok, sorry. Been busy and haven't had time to make a post.

The numbers... meaningless. It is extremely unlikely we are in prisoner's dilema and it is statistically easier to get a lynch with 3 players over 2.

I'm backing SC on this one. Your case was crap and you did refuse to tell anyone about it. I think you actually did that to another player as well. Also Sajin, you said SC blew up at anyone who remotely attacked him, please give examples.

[Battousai]

I'm thinking he meant 3 players over 4...

Yes.

[Battousai]

The numbers are meaningless yet you conclude my sentiment about the prisoneers dilema anyways.

Not sure what the 3 players over 2 players thing means though, should that not be reversed?

Reguardless, I did not like the way he responded to alexhans, firestarter and myself on day 1/2.

Post numbers?

[Battousai]

Well could you point me in the direction of the votes at least?

It is not wise to use flavor to find which claimed name would most likely be the SK based on the night flavor. The SK wouldn't claim with their real name, unless there is nothing in the name that would tie them to being scum.

And the numbers thing, I do agree the chance of prisoner's dilema is extremely low and we should not be focusing on that anymore.

[Battousai]

I'm going to wait for Sajin to answer my question first. It may have an impact on Sajin and/or you.

[Battousai]

137- I don't get how that shows SC overreacting or anything really
171- SC is not overreacting/defending here. This post is pretty reasonable.
235- Still not seeing anything scummy here
330- He mentions two people that he is wary of. Not a blanket list. However, I do find it anti-town of him to deman a self-hammer, even if Fire wasn't scumhunting
372- That post was mostly SC answering questions of him. The rest was mainly him defending himself accordingly.
472- Is not incredibly defensive
515-517- You present a bad case on SC and vote him. Then call OMGUS on SC for calling you out on it and voting you for it. It may be an overreaction, though, but out of it you come off a hell of a lot more scummy, especially when you refuse to give a solid case on SC because you feel SC would twist it (ala defend himself).
573- I find it reasonable to believe that he forgot about this case and discussing it more.
579- No, Alex wanted to know what parts of the case against him SC agrees with, so SC answered him. Not doing so would have been scummy
615- Alex asked for a repeat of SC's case, and SC gave the bare minimum. I don't see how this is OMGUS
627- SC is not defending himself... since you did not give him anything to defend. He wanted you to present your case instead of being afraid of him having a countercase. (see he did go back on that case you had of him, post 573).
587- I don't understand how this could be a scumtell

Could you have not done something like this yourself?

Yes, I would have acted similarly to SC in most of those instances.

So Battousai, what are your opinions on everybody?

Korlash- He thought similarly like me at the end of D1. He was pretty lurksome at the beginning, IIRC, but he has gotten greatly better. I find him to be the towniest.

SC- Overreacted a little to Sajin's case, initially. I don't really like the bussing theory he had D1. It did look a little bit like he was flipping a bit and going with the wagon with the greatest chance of a lynch.

Sajin- Pressed half cases, and refused to comment more on them in fear of SC twisting it (more like fear of SC accurately defending himself/having no case). Then calls SC scummy for defending (answering questions asked upon SC mostly).

I think it is time to go to night if Sajin and SC are still alive tomorrow this can be discussed more then, otherwise this might as well just confuse everyone.

Vote: No Lynch

Sajin-

[Battousai]

Vote SC

I lied yesterday. I am a watcher.. dum dum dum! I claimed I found Korlash townie yesterday in hopes of getting the SK to kill him. My result, obviously, was SC targetting Korlash. The reason I lied yesterday was to test Korlash. I felt that if he might suspect there was another investigative role, so by me claiming vanilla, I was hoping to catch him in a fake claim. It didn't work, since he claimed vanilla townie. Now earlier, I said I might know who a scum is, depending on an answer by the mod. That night, I recieved madeofphail targetted inquisitor. My action was actually to watch madeofphail, so Gorrad I told Gorrad he made a mistake and asked who targetted made (as you know made was killed that night, so the result would tell me who killed him). My answer was Inquisitor targetted Made, and Inquisitor was killed that night so it was no help. I know Sajin asked me about that earlier.

My list of results/actions:
N1- I watched SC, no one targetted him. I felt that SC pinged some people's scum dar and a cop would want to see his role. On N1 it is easier to pick the most likely to get investigated over most likely killed, IMO. I was wrong of course.

N2- I watched madeofphail, inquisitor (replaced by Lin) targetted him. I felt since he claimed a vig, the scum would target him. I was right, but madeofphail killed him that night.

N3- I watched Korlash, no one targetted him. Since he and myself are the only players that didn't claim the day before, I thought the scum would kill one of us to hopefully kill a powerrole. No dice.

N4- I watched Korlash, SC targetted Korlash. I called Korlash townie and helped set him up as being the most townie. My only problem would be if the scum would target me over him, but thankfully that didn't happen.

And just so you remember, I'm Joseph Meguire, watcher. My name claim is a veteren police officer.

Now I suspect SC will pull out the lieing scum as his defense. So, this will boil down to Sajin. Sajin, remember there was no SK kill N1 and I was protected N1. I was either protected or I, as scum, choose not to kill that night. I was hesitant to role claim, and instead prefered a name claim. That was because I didn't want to out powerroles, ala me. And remember, lieing does not make me definately scum. I had a perfectly valid reason for not coming forward and as a result, I found scum.

[Battousai]

You told Firestarter to hammer. From what I saw, I didn't see Firestarter threatening to self-hammer right before that. The reason I told millar to self-hammer was because he threatened to. If you threaten to do something, I expect you to do it. It's like when someone is so certain someone is scum and no one believes them, they say something along the lines of lynch me now, then when I come up townie, lynch them. It is usually a bluff by scum.

[Battousai]

Game over, Town should win now.

[Battousai]

Gotta wait for Gorrad to confirm though.

[Battousai]

So I was right, those magicians wouldn't be the ones using magic to kill. It had to be real magic.

[Battousai]

I laughed to myself and felt pity towards you Lin, when you were given Inquisitor's role and killed the same night.

[Battousai]

Battousai's watching used on Stranger

Battou... Why?

I figured it would be easier to pick who an investigative role would target over scum on D1. I thought people would investigate SC.

Madeofphail sees that Lind visited Kairyuu before shrinking

How did he assume Lindis was scum with this??
---------

I thought, and still do, that it was a bad idea for Made to want Lin to claim. I mean, when you are a tracker and in a detective themed game, you should expect town investigative powerroles. Made just got lucky, imo, that Lin wasn't a protown powerrole.

[Battousai]

I would have to say, I didn't like something about the mod in this game; something that I think should be looked at to better his other games. Deadlines. The twilight deadline, of 24 hrs I believe, should have continued all day, as not to give the town more information. Another deadline that was loosely inforced was the Night deadline. I know trying to get the night over with fast helps with inactivity and all that, but when you cut it short to 12 or so hours, that gives the town information that the scum would have to had been active during that time (ruling out any V/LA or otherwise). Nights should be consistant all game. That's the only thing I found wrong with this game.