Mafia 98 - Apennine Mafia (Game Over)

[SpyreX]

Note my sig

Actually,I dig and agree with Mastin's review. With this having no power roles the basic idea is going to be a lobotomization from the scum.

So, who would think of hasgafads as a key lobotomy point?

However, the tinfoil says that Mastin as scum could go the brazen I wouldn't do this as scum because it would be awesome.

[SpyreX]

Trying to catch up with stupid pay by hour internet sucks.

I see a whole lot of classic rigamarole about setup speculation (which is null), pushing out of the rvs (which is null)... but, a growing wagon that seems to be growing under its own growth and not "real reasons" which... isn't null.

I will try to give a better synopsis but looking at how its going I dig Mastin for now. My scum-theory isn't panning out with how he is acting after the fact.

Ireland is a hoot btw.

[SpyreX]

Yes, I am in fact still in Ireland.

This hotel has free internet so I can at least post some. Dont expect MEGGAAAAPOST until I get back though.

I figured I'd sit down and catch up on this game and almost immediately my eyes bled out. Good lord.

Ready for a few SHOCKERS!

1.) Pretty sure BM is town. This shouldn't be a surprise. The pro/con scum motivation for pulling the "great trap" ESPECIALLY in a mountainous setup makes me go woah.

2.) Mastin felt town early, but the fact I haven't seen much Mastin posting since the walls of doom starts to give me the twitch again.

3.) What worries me on a first real read isn't the players "on spotlight" but the players I dont pick out aside from some sniping... like Zach.

You'll get more later. I am keeping up and I WILL give some fat loots when I get back.

In the meantime:

Unvote, Vote: Zachrules

[SpyreX]

Ohh this game.

KMD comes in and we prove... that he's not retarded. Which I could have told you without all the SECRET PLANS. Well done.

I really want to review the difference in how Zach seems to be talking in regards to Mastin as the wagon grows when I'm back on firm ground. (note this is a note to note I must note this)

Good lord I'm tired.

[SpyreX]

Weep not, for I hath come home.

Expect serious words from me coming in spurts tonight / tomorrow. SERIOUS WORDS.

[SpyreX]

Ok, its obvious from catching up thus far that some of you are sick. Swine flu or whatever, there's something going on.

Get a bucket.

Vomit IN the bucket. Not somehow get it INTO the computer.

However, I'm cool with it because this vomit lends credence to something very important: I'd put money there is a scum-split between those that have the word sickness and those that dont.

The Deathly Ill:

Alexhans
Battle Mage
Benmage
GIEFF
Mastin

No way in hell all this spew is town. Of the above there is scum.

Now, WIFOM all you want or call shitty play or whatever - BM's move with "who is the cop"

in this setup

reeks town.

Additionally, I'm taking off the the tinfoil regarding Mastin for now.

So, of: (Alex, Benmage, GIEFF) there is a scum.

NOW, on the absolute flipside:

Cephrir - 4 posts (NOTE: THIS IS AS MANY AS I WHO HAD TO PAY FOR MY DAMN INTERNET ON VACATION HAVE)

Actually, you know what?

Unvote, vote: Cephrir

The fact there has been this power lurking is suspect.
The fact that I saw my name get sniped AND this whole hulabloobloo about "not scumhunting" get shot out (by GIEFF towards Camn ffs) is suspect.

Cephrir is beyond normal lurking. This is hiding in the waterfall of a buddies vomit.

[SpyreX]

Its not that it was a "good trap" - its the motivation for it.

The only outcome(s) possible were: catching a retarded scum or nothing.

There is no scum machinations behind it nor, with the way he did it, an overall "ohh shit thats so town move".

Its genuine in what it is.

And if you think my list is random well that just confirms your place on it. The amount of spew (which you have been a part of) is not an accident - especially in a mountainous game.

[SpyreX]

Looking at this table, the top 5 people on my scum-list (based on actions, not on lurking) are in the top 5 spots after me. This is probably because I am not able to find scummy things from people who don't post a lot, and so I focus on the more-active people, which allows scum-lurking to be a successful strategy. Which is bad.

Spy, do you have any suspicions of anybody based on something besides what you call "spew"? Have you read my case of BM in post 378, or my case on camn at the top of this page?

What do you mean when you say "saw your name get sniped?"

Yes, it is bad. Moreso, it is very suspect behavior.

The spew IS a symptom of what is going on - we're already seeing the game get clogged up because of it. In a mountainous game especially, it is a wonderful smokescreen. It needs to stop.

As for sniped: I saw in reading from vacation MY name get brought up questioningly more than once... but I definitely do not recall Cephrir's.

[SpyreX]

I am not saying the list was random. I am saying I could make just as an effective list, doing it randomly.

"Catching a retard scum" exactly...not a likely scenario. Yet he's been gaining some "townpoints" for it for certain people, which I don't like.

... so you are saying that a random list has the same value as what I see as being the classic scum-breakpoint for this game the way it is going? AWESOME.

Catching a retarded scum IS the most likely scenario apart from nothing happening.

What scum motivation would there be for it?

Oh wow multipostssss, lol. I meant in my last one to re-ask Spry, why you excluded Mastin from being scummy?

He's not SUPER TOWN (TM) - but as it sits I see the whole thought process early on as either: 1.) Very town or 2.) VERY subtly manipulative to appear thus. I've opted, for now, to sit with 1.

[SpyreX]

That's a fair thought. But... wich from where?

You're not even reading everything in a post before you start replying are you?

oh... so you should think jammer is town too for the 4 scum issue right? You know that those things can be faked TO BE SEEN AS TOWN!?
Traps that obv wouldn't work (even if BM were town) but might help him look townier.
(guess you explained later in 540. But you know where I stand)

YES I TOTALLY DO AND EXPLAINED JUST THAT...

Except, no I didn't. Apples != B52 Bombers.

The trap "could" have worked. Moreso, its failure in a binary state caused no harm.

Jammer's business is different and ultimately inapplicable here.

Who is your biggest suspicion? why? Benmage has word sickness?

Also, SpyreX.... Camn, BM or KMD are word healthy?

Of those three? Currently, GIEFF but you sure like to race up in the scum speedway 9000.

My biggest is Cephirir, hence the vote.

BM word healthy? No. However, I've addressed why I think he's genuinely got the disease.

Camn and KMD? They push the edge, but my eyes dont bleed when they post / I see enough signal:noise to not bother me.

[SpyreX]

597: What scum can be so retarded to claim cop by direction? Even if they didn't realize it was a mountanious game... They would certainly be afraid of a counterclaim...

Also... We know that a good player will act the same as scum or town... so if he laid traps as town he would surely pretend to lay traps as scum too.

I'm happy you're finally available to chip in. That's what we need.

Its not a simple "OHH SHI I AM COPS LOLOLOL" - the nuance is there.

If the reply was "I dont understand why you are rolefishing" I would have hung them up so fast it would have made your eyes spin. Etc, etc.

Like I've said, over and over, BM's "gambit" was town-motivated because in this setup the amount of scum-machination behind it is nil.

And, good players will

attempt

to act the same as scum or town. Thats a duh.

I am... it's just that I don't see how do we get to catch scum from the list. Yes, you made a list... so now what? How, specifically is scum. That's my question. Rest assured. I read everything.

Le sigh.

The "list" is a stepping stone. Its saying simply: with the development of this game there is an all but guaranteed scum spread between the vomiters and the non-vomiters.

So, how does that list find scum? Dollars to donuts if we lynch (GIEFF, Alex, Benmage) in that order there will be a scum hit.

The trick is trying to hit them first and not waste the mislynches.

YET, as my vote says, that is STILL secondary to lynching Cephrir.

[SpyreX]

@GIEFF -

I guess I haven't addressed it directly. Allow me to do so now:

1.) I have not gotten the "I AM SOO TOWN GUYS" feel from camn at all.
--- If this is a crux, how does Mastin measure up?

2.) The rest of it is up to camn to tear apart but its paper-thin.

That is not scumhunting. That is making a claim without much backing (scum is split between vomiters and non-vomiters), and then advocating lynching based on that alone. That is akin to what Mastin did early in the game, BEFORE we had 25 pages of accusations and votes to analyze. Mastin made a claim without much backing (people in games with has are more likely to be scum), made a list, and then tried to lynch people based on it.

May I subscribe to your newsletter? I sure could use "Scumhunting Weekly - Tips and Tricks of the trade."

Looking at the ebb and flow of a game that is suffering from a drag effect BECAUSE OF THE VOMIT DIRECTLY WOO IS scumhunting because get this, and follow me here:

Scum have the absolute most to gain from the giant amount of spew.

As for who my suspect is I'm pretty sure a vote should make that really clear. The fact you keep just swishing by this is just confirming my theory that is spelled out more than once that one of you (probably you) is being a vomit-waterfall that Ceph is hiding in.

[SpyreX]

Spyrex... What about my list... I want to apply a lynch queue too... Rolling Eyes anyway... we will have 2 flips tomorrow... so giving lynching queues won't help us too much. We need to try to find scum today.

What list? There's so many WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS that I'll freely admit I quit reading them all.

And yea its totally a queue that we should go down and just ignore everything else because thats exactly what I was addressing my lord almighty :explode:

[SpyreX]

Mastin is guilty of the same thing.

Fair enough. Yet, the focus is predominately on camn. Even with a mastin wagon having more steam.

My problem is with your claim that the people who are spewing (which is subjective) is scum. You have no evidence that is NOT based on this.

But you have no problem at all using other evidence to REMOVE people from your list. You somehow don't think that either Battle Mage or Mastin are capable of faking concern for the town. Scum do that all the time. Battle Mage's trap was null, and any town-points Mastin may have gained by trying to kick-start the game were lost (and then some) with how often he tried to call attention to that fact. Mastin is the ONLY person who both spews AND lurks, yet you decide to just write him off. I don't buy it.

I don't, nor have I pretended, to have "evidence" on anyone yet. I have not given a true case on any of my aforementioned list being scum because, get this, now is not the time. I am voting Ceph for a reason. IF need be I'll give a detailed (hint: more words than Ceph has posted) rationale for it but its right there.

As for Battle Mage and Mastin: yea, I think they're town

at this juncture

. Further evidence could change it. I think they are both perfectly capable of faking concern but I do not think they have done so

in this particular instance

.

I AM going to do a review of Mastin as a function of activity on the site in actual games and if he's actively avoiding this one I'll throw my vote that way.

And you don't include camn or KMD on that list, just because you subjectively claim they don't make your eyes bleed, when they're just as guilty of quote-warring and walling as most (with the exception of alex).

I call BS. If you want to lynch people who you think are purposefully creating spew to confuse the town, that's one thing, although I still think that would be ticky-tack. But you've gone even farther by haphazardly removing people from that list. You aren't even applying your own "formula" objectively.

This is the second time in this post alone you used the word subjectively to explain my thought process. Duh.

Are you saying you've

objectively

found scum? If thats the case then I'd sure as hell throw my vote on you right now because as you so eloquently put it I call BS.

I dont include KMD or Camn in that list because I dont find them scummy. If I need to write a thesis showing the difference in the posting to differentiate them I will but god in heaven why should I need to. I dont think they're doing what I was illustrating.

And, to close a nice paraphrase:

"If you want to lynch people who are purposefully doing something that is scummy in nature I think that's ticky-tack. You've went farther by removing people from the list of more people than could possibly BE SCUM in the hopes of finding the actual SCUM and that's even worse."

Pretty sure that sums it up.

@VP:

<3 (although your post was more than a scroll tsk, tsk).

[SpyreX]

If you've got a specific issue or a specific person that you want my input on, let me know and I'll put together an opinion in relatively short order. Otherwise, I'll continue to post when I feel the need to comment on something and not just to fill up the page.

The above applies to everyone requesting my input. Ask direct questions, get direct answers; otherwise I'll continue as I have been.

Hold up. What in the hell is this?

You come off a whopping 10 posts to say that you're not going to join in the reindeer games unless you get a magic carpet to do it with?

Well, I've sure got one for you:

Unvote, Vote Debonair Danny DiPietro

Maybe I was harping on the wrong lurker.

[SpyreX]

I really have no idea what SpyreX was going on about at the top of the page, it didn't look like English to me.

Didn't seem that hard to me to follow. You explicitly said you're not going to be proactive. Further, that you weren't going to participate unless

we forced you to

.

Yea.

----

As for Camn:

My only issue is this suicidial bent. The silver rule is: if someone asks to be lynched, you lynch them.

HOWEVER CAMN I THINK YOU ARE TOWN SO QUIT WITH THE /EMO IT IS NOT PRODUCTIVE.

---

After looking at Mastin's profile and the fact he has posted almost as much in other games as he has in this game total AND did not respond to the prod...

Unvote, Vote: Mastin

I am not thrilled about this. However, setting yourself up and then vanishing and letting other schmucks pick up your defense can suck a donkey.

[SpyreX]

KMD, I don't want to get dragged back into a camn-quote-war.

But are you really arguing that tying your vote to a player you find scummy and self-voting is PRO-TOWN?

Good lord I almost hope camn is the lynch so tomorrow you get the hang.

What is the SCUM BENEFIT for any of those actions? Putting yourself in the spotlight in a negative fashion in a mountainous game?

[SpyreX]

If you arent happy about this, why the hell are you doing it? Cant we discuss proper suspects a bit more, and then lynch the lurker?

BM

1.) Ultimately the way it went down is indefensible. It has to be dealt with.
--- No way in hell will it ever be dealt with via NK if he IS town.
2.) 30 pages for day 1 is enough. Probably more than enough.
3.) Restarting and regrouping if we are wrong will help.
--- The information gained if we are right is invaluable.
4.) Mastin is a much higher lynch choice for me versus some of the others on the table. I took the tinfoil hat off but its still there staring at me.

So, would I personally rather lynch Cephrir or DDD or even GIEFF today? Yes.

Do I see it happening? Nope.

Am I ready for this day to be over? HELLS YA

[SpyreX]

^

The above post is so ridiculously town that it hurts.

[SpyreX]

Damnit, as should be obvious, I was preview smacked.

I am referring to CAMN and not GIEFF.

Never GIEFF.

[SpyreX]

Ohh hay Mastin posted just now in a different thread and made no mention of this issue. Funny how that works.

[SpyreX]

Wow.

How about this ohh so condescending one that is obviously right about everything:

I'll vote camn. Hell, I help get it done.

When she is town you vote yourself and just dont post anymore.
If I'm wrong I'll follow you around like a puppy dog.

As for Battle Mage and Mastin: yea, I think they're town at this juncture.

Further evidence could change it.

I think they are both perfectly capable of faking concern but I do not think they have done so in this particular instance.

After looking at Mastin's profile and the fact he has posted almost as much in other games as he has in this game total AND did not respond to the prod...

Unvote, Vote: Mastin

And, just so we're clear from this last page the new "objective" train is going:

1.) Scum will lie.
2.) Camn has lied.
3.) Camn is scum.

Which would work if #2 WAS GROUNDED IN FACT and NOT SUBJECTIVE INTERPRETATION OF THE POSTS.

[SpyreX]

Good lord. Sure.

Unvote, Vote Camn

Bam. Its done.

I'm now done with today.

[SpyreX]

Ok, I am over my bout of peevishness with this game.

Spyrex-Could you explain that vote in detail?

Did you miss my entire talk with Capt. Condescending regarding Camn and everything else going on? I have to assume you did.

Attn: GIEFF, benmage, spyrex, and camn---the time has come to do the right thing and vote Mastin. Scum are clearly trying to make this day utterly useless and Mastin's lynch will tell us information about his most ardent defenders. Furthermore, Mastin's scum meta is to lurk when he gets behind. Be pro-town and help this game move forward.

I'll give him 2 days to explain and then I'll vote. Access issues (which I apparently missed him saying in his games) or not doesn't change the fact it was a slew of posts in other games before the issues and not addressing this one. 2 days is plenty even with a shitty connection to say something relevant in this game.

for crying out loud! 2 weeks is not an "overly long day" for a large normal!

BM

Two weeks? No. Going on 40 pages? Yes.

Unvote

- new post time.

[SpyreX]

Ok, this has gone to ridiculous speed:

Unvote Mastin

I suspect alex and camn are buddies.

I asked them both questions about the other

Alex claims to find camn scummy, claims to want to save Mastin, yet refuses to vote her to do so. Hmm.

I also asked camn if she would prefer a Mastin or alex lynch, and she chose Mastin.

I hope everybody agrees that this is a shocking amount of coaching, a shocking amount of defense, and a very lame pretense of finding camn scummy.

Alex had a chance to vote for a player he CLAIMS to find scummy, with a significant number of people behind her lynch, in order to stave off the lynch of another player he CLAIMS to find townie, but instead chooses to vote for Battle Mage, because apparently other people defending camn confuses him.

If I can't convince you guys to lynch camn today, can we please lynch alex instead?

Do you agree that alex was coaching camn?

Do you think a townie would coach anybody as much as alex has coached camn, regardless of camn's alignment?

I admit it was my suspicion of camn (and BM's accusation of coaching) that first got me to dig back and look at all this stuff, but it's pretty clear that when camn does something scummy, alex mentions it to either tell her to stop, or just warn her that her behavior is scummy. His quotes speak for themselves. He threw her on a couple scum-lists for appearances, but his refusal to wagon her to save Mastin lends credence to my theory that it's just distancing.

And as camn says, alex's excuse for not voting camn to save Mastin ("people defending her is WIFOM-y!") rings pretty hollow.

Which do you think would incriminate alex

more

at this point - Mastin-town or Mastin-scum?

So, lets parse this out:

1.) Alex and Camn are scum together.
2.) Alex is scum regardless of camn's alignment.
3.) Alex is incriminated regardless of Mastin's alignment.
4.) Alex wants to "save" Mastin, but is unwilling to vote Camn.

A few things:

1 & 2 don't really jive. Thats a pretty solid case of having your cake and eating it too. 3 follows this pattern. 4 makes far more sense IF Mastin & Alex are scum together than if Alex is scum and Mastin is town.

So, in essence, 4 is saying that Alex, Mastin and Camn are scum together and Alex is trying to save one partner but not by voting for the other.

Welp, case closed I guess.

Which begs the case if this thought process is true why would you unvote Mastin to vote Alex IF they are scum together? Its mountainous - one scum is just as good as another.

However, if GIEFF is scum and this is a whole pot of fail this makes far more sense.

- If Mastin is scum then GIEFF buys him another day by shifting the wagon.
- If Mastin is town then GIEFF leaves an obvious mislynch for another day.

So, we go around the horn. I'll vote Mastin, but I'd rather see a GIEFF wagon.

Vote: GIEFF

[SpyreX]

I personally think that Alex and Camn are scum together.

However, a lot of people do not want to lynch camn, so I know I can't convince them of #1.

And so, I ask, from their perspective, even if camn WERE town, do they agree that Alex coaching camn is scummy? Trying to prove #2.

I do not think Mastin and alex are scum together. Read my posts more closely, Spyrex. Alex came back soon after Mastin hit L-1 to say "I am against this lynch." But he did not do anything to stop it. It looks to me like somebody wanting to gain town-points from being against someone he KNOWS will flip town.

Wait, its not adding up:

1.) Alex and Camn are scum together.
2.) You can't get Camn lynched.
3.) Mastin and Alex are NOT scum together.

Deductive conclusions:
a.) Alex is the right lynch (true).
b.) Mastin is town

...

unvote
vote mastin

go sens go

Final conclusion based on your own statements

objectively

:

You wanted Sensfan to actively hammer someone you think is town.

[SpyreX]

....

So it was all a trap?

[SpyreX]

Unvote

I hate this game sometimes.

I follow the process. Waiting for Mastin.

[SpyreX]

If I knew the potential epiphany then I wouldn't have to wait for him to give it would I?

Chances are there isn't one. HOWEVER, regardless of that why the hell wouldn't you give the CHANCE for it?

If he is scum:
- it is another chance for him to spew something out to parse for connections.

If he is town:
- it is another chance to get his feelings on the game on record.

[SpyreX]

Good god this game.

I vote when the lurkers say something.

You're sayin I'm lurking? Reaaly? Sweet.

As for this whole Alex-Mastin business:

Mastin has opted to even with his "limited access" post 9 times on site in different games on Jul 23rd alone.

So, to hell with two days. This ends now.

Unvote, Vote: Mastin

[SpyreX]

Actually he was referring to his vote on me as far as I can tell from the flow of that conversation.

When someone justifies a vote based on moon-logic, well.

[SpyreX]

...Ok this is ridiculous.

I'll catch up tomorrow but anyone want to synopsis whatever hurgle-blargle the last pages are because seriously.

[SpyreX]

So I get to play catchup in this game like I'm a damn replacement because there is 10-ot pages of spew AGAIN that no one wants to condense into a readable format.

Awesome.

So, lets start this party off:

1.) Benmage is town. No way in hell is that whole mess a scum move.
--- Zachrules (surprise!!) looks REALLY off in 1176 because of this.
--- GIEFF (suprise!!) also looks really bad 1169.
--- Oddly enough Sens reaction sparks a town vibe.

2.) Lynching lurkers that talk to the mod during the night but dont play the game is awesome and I approve. I've even had a lurker I wanted lynched BEFORE and today just makes me rub the belly about it even more.

Vote: Cephrir

If Cephrir is scum, GIEFF dies. Period. Dont, PLEASE GOD, dont make me explain it in more detail than that.

3.) My eyes glazed over smaller details because this game makes me sick to my stomach with all the WORDS WORDS WORDS.

[SpyreX]

I swear this game needs to be put under a microscope and studied long into the future to figure out what part of the equation creates sooo soo many damn words all of the time.

However, I want to join in the reindeer games too:

Town:
Benmage
Battle Mage

Slightly-Leaning Town:
KMD
Jammer
Alex

Leaning Scum:
Zach

Here be scum:
GIEFF
DDP
Blackcat

I like to ping-pong between super-town and three sets of handlebar moustaches scum:
SensFan

First things first:

Prod: Blackcat

If we follow the mod given business about him being here but not posting lets let the prod do the work. If the prod is picked up and somehow mystically contribution doesn't happen he dies.

So, onto the crux of things:
1.) Barring some kind of mystical change in the space-time continuum I am NOT ever, ever, ever voting for BM'z of either sort. They are town.
2.) It is not awesome how much of a mental difference there is between the TOWN and the maybe-towns.
3.) I'm not pushing on blackcat, however I am more than willing to see if I can get the scumgroup to start crumbling:

Vote: DDD

Seriously that whole exchange about him not posting then miraculously showing up to post and the awesome "pressure" votes that just vanish when really nothing was posted that is parsable. At this point even though its a struggle not having reads on 4 people is junk.

And AND AND saying one of these two is scum and not placing a vote? Really?

And I'll break this down gangsta-style. If DDD is scum I'll eat a hat if Zach isn't scum with him.

[SpyreX]

The whole slapfight fake pressure vote comes to mind.

However, cart before the horse and all that.

[SpyreX]

How the hell do you have a town read on Spyrex?

I think I need some emphasis here before I decide whether or not to be offended:

1.) How the hell do

you

have a town read on SpyreX?
2.) How the hell do you have a town read on

SpyreX

?

Choose your poison. Choose wisely.

[SpyreX]

And if you thought I was scum why in the name of everything were you asking for MY vote yesterday?

[SpyreX]

Actually, I had my days mixed up because I forgot how rediculously long day 1 was:

Attention KMD, Spyrex, Sens, Baltar, jammer, DDD, and Battle Mage - it takes only a little bit of effort to switch to an alex-wagon. Help me out.

Just because Zach, Benmage, and camn are flipping out (to varying degrees) about an alex lynch doesn't mean it is the wrong play.

Kmd, Spyrex, jammer, and DDD:

If you agree with an alex lynch, please vote for him now. This will allow players like Sens and Baltar, who are mainly interested in ending the day and moving on, to switch to alex, and we really CAN end the day. If not, then please say you won't, so I know when to stop trying to get an alex lynch through.

You mention me once more between then and today with an ohh so typical "Over-defensive much?" snipe in regards to Jammer.

So, either I was scum at the point you asked for my vote to switch wagons OR I became scum under (not talked about in thread).

As for me and Cephir I think that's been clear forever.

2.) Lynching lurkers that talk to the mod during the night but dont play the game is awesome and I approve. I've even had a lurker I wanted lynched BEFORE and today just makes me rub the belly about it even more.

Now, admittedly, I was wrong about him being scum hiding in your scum shadow.

However, that doesn't change the fact Ceph picked up all of his prods and told the mod he was going to be playing still.

So, would I have been fine with either? Sure.

Was Ceph better? Hoss yes because him being scum meant you were dead to rises the next day.

[SpyreX]

Both Ceph AND bcc picked up their prods, and neither posted. So you can't use this as a reason to prefer one to apples an apple is fruit.

Lets try this again:

2.) Lynching lurkers that talk to the mod during the night but dont play the game is awesome and I approve. I've even had a lurker I wanted lynched BEFORE and today just makes me rub the belly about it even more.

Now, admittedly, I was wrong about him being scum hiding in your scum shadow.

However, that doesn't change the fact Ceph picked up all of his prods and told the mod he was going to be playing still.

So, would I have been fine with either? Sure.

Was Ceph better? Hoss yes because him being scum meant you were dead to rises the next day.

I'm not sure what you're aiming for asking me the same question again. And the analogy you've opted to use doesn't make sense:

I prefer apples to oranges because I have been on record saying I hate oranges and if we squish the filthy oranges and there is a worm inside I get to squish the filthy lemons too.

Now I'm going to go eat a banana. TAKE THAT SOCIETY

[SpyreX]

Because you didn't answer it. You failed to differentiate between the two. You didn't even MENTION bcc.

And you still haven't told me WHY you hate oranges.

Because I've been fine with lynching Ceph since the beginning of the game. Every prod without fail he's picked up. He even talked with the mod at night. And chose not to play.

So, yea, still fine with that not sure what you're aiming for. I was not given the powers to lynch more than one person a day.

Only because of your earlier guess that I am scum vomit-protecting Cephrir. Which is another example of you assuming Cephrir lurking is scum, but completely ignoring bcc lurking.

And Cephrir flipping town hasn't changed your mind on me at all, has it?

So if the only reason you had to choose Cephrir over bcc was to try to implicate me, then why not just vote me?

Yes I am ignoring bcc lurking today. I am. Wait ohh god my quote button its clickkinngggg.

First things first:
Prod: Blackcat

If we follow the mod given business about him being here but not posting lets let the prod do the work. If the prod is picked up and somehow mystically contribution doesn't happen he dies.

Yea looks like I'm ignoring bcc.

Believe it or not its not about you. Cephir was a-grade scummy and if he was scum you getting lynched is simply icing. Delicious icing, but icing nontheless.

I'm really intrigued by this line of hard knocks though. Are you somehow saying that due to "Cephir lurks as town" the powerful meta making that a bad play in any fashion?

Or am I somehow protecting my super-secret scum partner bcc who I said if they don't produce I would willingly lynch?

I have a third more correct theory but that can wait.

[SpyreX]

The hell it isn't relevant?

You're conjecture for bcc over Cephir was based upon Meta in favor of Cephir (which is le bad) and the fact that bcc was replaced.

If BCC getting replaced isn't a function of the game in entirety then the fact Cephir made more sense to me because of "previous day events" sure is.

Ultimately, the question is: what does any of this mean or do or is it posting for posting's sake?

Because if the leadup to all this mess isn't a vote for bcc under some kind of "those people voted for Ceph INSTEAD" then this is all absolute white noise.

More of the same that way back when I said was going to be a scum-move.

[SpyreX]

Ahhh so its a hindsight gambit I see.

[SpyreX]

The hell could I STOP them from it?

Really?

[SpyreX]

In one spot without 4 million quotes and/or blaze blah I'd love to see this developing case on BM.

[SpyreX]

BM - my post asking about the "case" on you was because just this was happening and I'd like to see it laid out because you and Ben are my two super best happy lucky funtime towns.

As for me and GIEFF being scum, swish. I'd vote him in a heartbeat - but I am more confident about my vote now.

[SpyreX]

Than BM? The fact I think he's town?

Than you? Lurkers be lurkin' yo.

If you are participating there will be enough rope to hang you with if the time comes. If you are town there is NO WAY they can let you live much longer as a vocal point.

However, the plague that be? Yea.

[SpyreX]

They being the scum?

If you are town vocal town are going to be a liability.

As for DDD he's pro-grade lurking snipin' in and then vanishing again.

[SpyreX]

I think you are scummy. I think DDD is more scummy.

Not to mention the level of Risk / Reward.

[SpyreX]

Hi Vi!

Hi WORDS I've missed you. Wait, no I haven't. In fact you've been coming around this way far too often. Stop stealing my newspapers.

I'm stoked to the rafters having to ask for a nice clear point by point again on what this now moved to "rewriting history" is.

[SpyreX]

Spyrex and BM:

You both find me very scummy.
Yet you both think that if I AM town, I will be (or should have already been) night-killed.

But why? If I'm so scummy, doesn't it makes sense for scum to try to leave me alive as a potential mislynch?

And wouldn't scum also try to keep my mislynch viable by, just as an example, saying that I should have been nightkilled if I were town?

Again, put on the scum hat:

If you start to swing at ALL towards "town" you are by nature a very plausible NK.

If there were many "Ohh shi obvtown" players this game yes it would be a different ball of wax but, get this, there aren't. We've had an idiotic amount of lurking (which is always going to be left for mislynches over a "scummy active player").

So, again. Risk/Reward makes DDD a far superior lynch at this juncture. Further, if you are town I'd eat all the hats if you make it to endgame.

Are you even reading the game?

His assertion that there has been no significant discussion on Gieff's scumminess until today is just one blatant example of his repeated attempts to rewrite history.

This repeated attempt to shove the whole "why hasn't Gieff been NKed yet" argument down our throats is convincing me that Gieff is actually town.

Nope. Dont read. Never learned how. It makes mafia hard.

It's a much nicer way of saying "Hay, condense this case into a readable format so that it can be discussed that way via 15 different quote wars"

And, yes lets look at some key words:

significant

discussion.

If he's making this all up show me the significant discussion pre-today about GIEFF. It doesn't exist. Of the examples GIEFF gave showing all the "discussion about how he is scummy" only MINE really was "discussion" - and not even strong at that because there has been such an influx of professional lurking this game.

[SpyreX]

I assumed my conjecture was under the premise that we, ya know, hit a scum so that we're not looking at fat-lylo and just regular type.

And are we going to argue the difference between "significant discussion" and "coming to the forefront"?

If you are town AND calibrate your posts then its a hindrance to the mafia.
If you are town AND continue to spew then its a help.
If you are scum then you are a help.

Thus:

1.) If scenario one happens then you will be NK'd. You are active and with this being mountainous have to go the way of the dodo.
--- See the fantabulous lurker set: as scum, what would you prefer to have around?
--- This scenario can ONLY occur if we lynch scum. So, until that happens we are stuck in scenarios two and three.

2.) Two and three are pretty much indistinguishable at this point.

[SpyreX]

1 shot snipes are not "forefront" discussion. Which is all but necessary for significance to be had in the discussion.

Fat-lylo is 9/4 (whcih I doubt) or the 7/3 which we are approaching. You could be left for a mislycnh at fat lylo. Regular type 3/1 or PROBABLY even 5/2 would not happen.

Considering I think this case on BM is moonbeams no. You are spewing LESS (but still spewing) but calibrated no so much.

I love the last line snipa' though.

[SpyreX]

Ok, I'll stop playing semantics:

Show me a wagon, a for reallies wagon. You know that whole "I am actually putting you down for lynch because you're scummy".

But, maybe if you're point is "everyone thinks I'm scummy but I'm not getting lynched" then sure, you're right.

Here you go:

Unvote: Vote GIEFF

[SpyreX]

Because in this game you are making some kind of connection between "saying you are scummy" and that equating "saving me for a mislynch".

When, get this, this game has been a debacle. It's far, far harder to find someone who ISNT scummy in the eyes of at LEAST half the game than someone who is.

As for poorly, yea, BM isn't the only one. The camn business never made sense. This case on BM is rainbows. If I do an analysis on you I think I'll find snipes at almost everyone.

However, that all aside there are too many people actively lurking for them to all be town. Period. If that is the case we lose.

So, when I say "You are scummy, but you are active versus them" and get this "AHA" business in response well.

You MAY be scum. In fact I'm starting to swing that way hard for the umpteenth time. However, if I am wrong about you, there is much more of a negative impact than one of the lurkers.

Not to mention if you are so "ripe for mislynch" then where is the voting history to show ripeness?

So, I don't get it. At all. But, you are right - sniping but not votes would be a great place for scum to sit on their buddy.

[SpyreX]

However, I see NO possible town-explanation for Battle Mage's behavior, and I don't see why you are defending him, especially by resorting to semantics.

The logic is real simple:

There are two players I have solid town reads on: Battle Mage and benmage.

You are posting a attack on one of them that I can't even get nailed down to WHAT it is.

Additionally, this argument about semantics is because its really a slippery worm - I'm trying to pin down what you are aiming for and the bar keeps moving around.

Had you ever swung back the other way? I assumed you've thought me scum this whole time.

It moves from super scummy to "what in the hell" to "ok what" to super scummy again. It does this a lot.

When I ask "what is the actual case?" and don't really get a solid reply. THEN we move into this business with BM and I being scumpartners with some grand machination to get you lynched.... but not now, later.

So, yea.

[SpyreX]

Because ultimately the Cephrir scenario was NOT a mislynch. They happened to be town, which sucks, but it was not a bad move at all.

The meta-analysis of Cephrir is a null point because steamboat lurking is going to by nature defy meta (which is bad anyways) and alters NOTHING in most games and doubly so in a mountainous.

Then there is the day 1 "gambit" which really set a tone for me, but apparently different than everyone else. I still hold strong to the trying to catch a scum has allt he earmarks of a perfect town-move in this setup.

I can if necessary get more but yea.

[SpyreX]

The walls helped. Ben is partially raw gut. I read it and I see no deeper machinations - he's 100% transparent.

I'll go relook at the whole Ceph / Bcc business.

I still want a nice simply summary. Lawyer style.

[SpyreX]

Ohh you've got a lot of worries about a lynch comin up soon ya.

[SpyreX]

Ohh wow my irony meter is off the chart right about now.

Unvote, Vote: DDD

How nice to see you. Lets examine this vote.

SpyreX suggested (or agreed with BM) that GIEFF was widely viewed as pro-town. GIEFF's post in 1859 nicely sums up most of it, but I have a hard time believing anyone would say the guy who spent most of D1 and D2 wall-posting the town into submission was especially pro-town. It's a nice way to dirty someone up because to defend themselves they're forced to go back and drag up all the old arguments and votes against them.

The hell?

No, seriously.

My argument has been that IF GIEFF is town he will be a NK before we reach true-lylo. This is not because he is SUPER TOWN, but because he has been the most active player in this game.

In comparison, we have team lurker-9000. HOwever, on top of wearing their hat you also seem to show up and say "ohh hey hows it going" right after you're mentioned a few times.

So, you're either Beetlejuice or power-lurking scum ex machina.

P.S. I heart Vi.

P.S.S.
[quote="GIEFF']It's just that if we're going to lynch someone solely for lurking, I think bcc would be the best bet. So it doesn't seem right of you to want to lynch DDD solely (or mainly) for lurking, and expect the rest of us to ignore the lurking of your predecessors.[/quote]

I want to be super clear about this. None of the lynches have -simply- been for lurking.

1.) Mastin came out guns-ho and then fell into the void once things shifted against him.
2.) Cephrir was keeping in communication with the mod enough to not get replaced. And choosing to not do anything.
3.) DDD, aside from now just making up stuff, has been strategically lurking. Further, he TOLD us that he was going to do it and no one seemed to even be confused by this aside from me.

BCC does seem connected to #2, however when prodded this time he got replaced. Vi has came in and laid down enough opinions that placing them as a backburner lynch under the grounds of their predecessor lurking isn't going to be killer sweet.

[SpyreX]

And what, exactly, does this have to do with anything? Anything useful, at any rate.

Going back to DDD's explanation, I'm reading GIEFF 1859 and agreeing with it nicely. To say that GIEFF was thought of as pro-Town throughout the game is quite simply false. For the first 500 posts he consistently had three votes on him; his anti-fan club (Zach, Benmage, Kmd, a side of SpyreX) have been on-and-off voting him throughout. As for being the most active player in the game, I'm really not buying that as a fact or as a worthy reason to push whatever it is you're trying to get across in the above quote.

This whole diatribe is a function of the great conspiracy theory on BM and SpyreX are together forming a framework where GIEFF gets mislynched later because of the fact he isn't dead.

Which is space awesome.

I've been saying that 1.) we have no obvTown this game and 2.) an active "scummy" player is still going to be far more of a threat than a power lurker which leads to 3.) if GIEFF is town he's a marked man.

Unfortunately that is a giant freaking IF.

Actually, let's hold on changing the subject for a moment.
You've now seen two fairly direct references to "cases" on Battle Mage. I'd like to see your response to them.

I would also like to know your *present* opinion of GIEFF, since in voting DDD you took your vote off of him.

I have?

I'm totally missing what GIEFF had to say about BM in a simple format.

You are rightish about alex though. I apparently totally missed it.

He voted Mastin.
Unvoted, Voted Me.
Pushed my case a lot. He was "convinced" until people started disbelieving his case.
Then voted GIEFF.
Then, suddenly. Called GIEFF town.
When Mastin was getting lynched. He called Mastin Obv town.
After VP's death. He called VP obv town.
He was CLEARLY against a BCC lynch and pushed a Cephir one.
He was NOT on the Cephir waggon.

To start, I would like the collaborating posts. I'm not ashamed to admit the idea of going back and hunting all this down makes my insides simply die.

Specifically line(s) 3, 6 and 8.

Some of the others really mean very little but its not my place to break it out.

Presently? I still think he is scummy. However, he is not near as scummy as DDD. Especially with this last post.

I find his question of "What has DDD done that is scummy?" odd and doubly-odd that he would suggest that you should find yourself scummy due to your predecessors on that logic.

A younger, more optimistic SpyreX would say something along the lines of "If DDD is scum, GIEFF is a good suspect" but that one died when the lurkers were town.

[SpyreX]

Sorry:

"What has DDD done that is scummy besides contribute lightly?"

Which is in direct response to detailing his absence of contribution.

Versus: "I want you to compile your case on BM"

Now, after you do said thing, if I go "Yea, but what has he done that is scummy besides that?" then there is a comparison.

[SpyreX]

Strategic and willful absence of contribution.

Who else is doing that?

And to a greater degree?

[SpyreX]

bbc/Kai has been replaced. There is nothing strategic about that. The argument of "lurking" for them can only be applied if, and only if, additionally you find Vi scummy.

KMD I could also get behind for the same thing but he doesn't have this amazing habit of showing up when called upon.

[SpyreX]

Then contribute.

I think my statement about how your assessment of me in regards to GIEFF is, to be mild, crazy pants would be a start.

[SpyreX]

"With us"? Nice.

If the argument is "They are lurking because they don't want to contribute as scum" and they get flat out replaced well that doesn't really serve their win condition as any respectable player doesn't count a game as a win when they get replaced.

So, if there are other factors then simply lurking in favor of BCC (which I haven't seen) then of COURSE those still apply.

See, this would have worked with Ceph except for the fact the MOD said that Ceph at night was active enough to tell him he was staying in.

[SpyreX]

The nature of his lurking is the issue at hand. He's here. He's choosing not to play. He's came out and OMGUS'd me based on moon logic.

As for the other and I may have missed it but a concise version of BM case yes/no?

[SpyreX]

In detail but I may be suffering from confirmation bias. I'm not seeing anything that stands out like OHH SNAP SCUM FOUND.

[SpyreX]

Bullshit, just because I don't produce the spew that so many in this game have doesn't mean I've not been playing. And your attempts to push for my lynch based on playstyle grounds or Ben's unspecified meta arguments are incredibly poor and a little insulting as well. You don't think I consider these things when I'm starting a new game?

There is a continent between "producing spew" and "not lurking".

I'm not suggesting the former. I am accusing you of being on the lurking side of the latter.

Lurking is not a justifiable "playstyle". You're obviously watching the game fairly regularly and choosing not to participate in it.

As an aside: I am definitely not trying to be personally insulting. Thats not my mantra. This is simply a function of your play THIS game.

[SpyreX]

I have absolutely no idea how I missed 1954, but I'll try again to make my stance clear:

I still don't understand WHY you're saying this.
I'm a poor innocent replacement, still scarred from reading 75 pages and expected to remember and fully understand all of it. Please tell me as easily as you can what's going on with this line of thought :bambi:

I've been saying it over and over because its the answer or rebuttal for the "BM and SpyreX are setting me up for a mislynch when I'm not dead because they expect me to die."

Which I do if he is town because of the above.

As for the two cases -

Alex's 1526 focuses on BM being a mastermind behind a quicklynch that he wasn't a part of - if the quicklynch itself was scummy, then those that were a part of it are by nature far more culpable even than someone who cheered it on.

As for GIEFF one of the biggest issues I have and why I keep going back to him being scum can be detailed thusly:

This is completely wrong. You are using faulty logic, the same faulty logic you used to mislynch Cephrir.

See culpability. Further, this reeks of pushing some kind of power case against an all but obvious town and the sheep just eating it out of BM's hands. Whcih wasn't the case.

Cephrir was town so thus -technically- a mislynch. However, that doesn't make it a lynch I would shed a tear over and part of the BM-hunt has been based on that.

[SpyreX]

@SpyreX: I'm still getting caught somewhere here.
*GIEFF: "BM and SpyreX are setting me up for a mislynch when I'm not dead because they expect me to die."
*You (rebuttal): "IF GIEFF is town he will be a NK before we reach true-lylo."
...this is the same statement from two different viewpoints.

I dont know what else to say then.

I expect GIEFF would be a higher priority kill than any of the dozen lurkers we've had at any given point.

That doesn't translate into me and BM setting him up for a mislynch because a.) I dont know his alignment so how the hell could I be "mislynching" him b.) I'm not scum and thusly not scum with BM so how can this be some kind of collusion to push days ahead a mislynch through?

Not to mention how retarded it would be to get on this train NOW if I was going to push for his mislynch LATER.

So the most basic of premises - the genus gambit or the active gambit if you will is something that I would be concerned with. The other pieces is where it falls apart.

[SpyreX]

Of COURSE they assume I'm town because it is my thought process and I know I am town

And I'm saying if this was some great machination why would I spring it for "down the road" instead of calling it out then.

[SpyreX]

@Jammer:

If my intention was to pull the "he's not dead" for a mislynch why in the hell would I set it up as scum BEFORE I was going to pull the maneuver?

I feel like I'm missing a question still - Vi did you ask me something that I missed?

[SpyreX]

Wow.

I'm definitely not stepping up to the plate if BM doesn't even want to discuss the leaps of logic / misrepresentations in your 2040.

I night-killed myself? Thats pretty sweet. I could see this game driving someone to that.

[SpyreX]

Ohh and DDD comes out of the woodwork to support this.

Consider me shocked and or awed.

[SpyreX]

Le Sigh.

IF KMD is town I swear to god no more dickin around and GIEFF dies tomorrow.

Unvote, Vote: KMD

[SpyreX]

Yea not like I mentioned that before too.

I'll be clearer:

GIEFF, who was key to shifting the wagon off of my main scum pick, is who I am going to want to lynch if KMD is town. Further, if GIEFF is scum DDD is getting lynched without words.

I am not stoked about DDD being on this one bit. However KMD's responses are killer AND GIEFF, despite all our differences, does make a few valid points - I'm just not sold on them being "truly" valid or "move the lynch off my buddy" valid.

[SpyreX]

Unvote

Some of that was serious out-of-game irritation.

I've been pushing DDD the opportunistic-lyncher and no ground hath been gained and GIEFF comes up with a few good points (sans the fact DDD was on it) and I swear it got more traction than 3 or I'm losing my mind entirely.

I've got some burnout with this game and I need to get past it. This isn't a let me feel my FEELINGS but my play for the last bit has been less than stellar.

[SpyreX]

Alright, back on my feetish and trying to get back into this.

First off: Sensfan has been playing the exact same way all game. Why all of a sudden did it become the coolest of kids to powerbomb him? Especially when, god forbids, DDD cant get a lynch moving on him?

Good lord when half the reasons for the votes are fabrications it makes me really, REALLY weary of that wagon.

With that said: The defense of "got nothing on me coppa" means absolutely nothing. Not playing in the game is anti-town. Pick it up or get lynched. This is the callout.

So, onto other things:

And yes, Zach, I do think that Spy's vote in Post 2081 was super scummy. Both because his previous post was about how his #1-scum-target DDD was on the KMD wagon, and also because he tried to blame ME for his vote. And he hasn't posted in the thread since Thursday, 5 hours after his vote. Hard to say if he's active elsewhere on the site though, as search is down.

I haven't been active for a bit. Search going down makes that much harder.

DDD IS my number 1 scum pick but, get this, sure doesn't look like its happening. However, your case on KMD DID have some merit.

And, yes, when DDD goes from largest number of votes to me living alone in the forest I'm going to take note at why that happened. You've been very apologetic for DDD's play.

BUT, no more feelings or any other business. I'm going back to my roots:

Vote: DDD

He is independently more scummy than the other lurkers / suck-a-ducks - especially this magical Sensfan wagon.
My stance on the mages is clear.

[SpyreX]

Of course not

because you haven't been active in the game.

Which makes any cases boil down to that point.

[SpyreX]

Sensfan is developing a bad case of the DDD's - ben you are right DDD has been lurkin' snipa ready to post at some heat and that is what I am calling out.

[SpyreX]

Notice I said that Sens is becoming more DDD-like. The issue with DDD isn't just the lurking, its the TYPE of lurking. That is the difference.

[SpyreX]

Thats why I said MORE. Notice how quickly you replied to this.

It is NOT the same, hence why I am voting for DDD and not you.

[SpyreX]

Yea I sure am carving out a difference between the two of you

because there are differences between the two of you

.

And, yea, this is even more of a duh than my other statement that cased so much headache: Sensfan wont be NK'd. There is no gain in this setup for business like that.

Just like my statement about my ohh soo super-setting-up-a-mislynch-but-not-today statement regarding GIEFF being a NK if he is town before lylo.

I really dig the I'm scum because I'm looking for REASONS for the lurking instead of just lurkin' on down the choo-choo-train.

This game. Ohh this game.

[SpyreX]

True that. Especially in this game.

[SpyreX]

Wagoners?

Every lynch has been lurkers and there are still, ohh, HALF the game left that would quantify for that.

Mastin opted to quit playing as deadline approached.
Cephrir still breaks the head by accepting all the prods and still not playing - and BCC if he hadn't been replaced would have done the same.

I'm not even pretending that a huge chunk of my wanting DDD lynched is for the absence of play.
Nor will I accept that this push on SensFan doesn't hold the same ideas.

And that still leaves out jammer, alex of late, KMD, and hell even myself to a degree.

So, they haven't been scum, and they all CANT be scum, but if that entire group is town G-to-the-G scum because this game is won already.

So, its a matter of parsing out WHY and HOW to try and find the actual scum in that mess. And I think that Tri-D fits that bill. He truly is he who must not be named.

When you take that into conjunction with how quickly the sensfan wagon got traction versus this, which I have brought up before, yes it makes me feel even more comfortable about it.

At heart this entire game has been a divide of the spew and the not. This has been, and has stayed true, since I said it early day one.

[SpyreX]

Has he explained... anything? Ever?

[SpyreX]

If Sensfan is town, no way. A unexplained power-hammer in this game wouldn't be cruise control for freedom. Especially when, ultimately, that has little to do with the wagon GETTING there in the first place.

[SpyreX]

I'm not sure if you answered my question, SpyreX, but your rhetoric sounds great! You should be an Obama impersonator. Or is that Porkens' job?

I'm not sure if your bein snarky or not sheesh.

Now, keep in mind I've been harping on DDD for a while. In comparison lets look at sensfan:

Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 3:42 pm Post subject: 2069 - Ben
Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 7:20 pm Post subject: 2082 - Vi
Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 8:51 pm Post subject: 2098 - GIEFF
Posted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 12:41 am Post subject: 2109 - Zach

In less than a day and 40 posts he goes from "not really mentioned" to L-2. That doesn't strike you as odd? Further, add in that it was Alex who in 2063 made the "case" but hasn't jumped on it then hells-to-the-yes there is something amiss there.

[SpyreX]

* I'm firmly convinced Benmage is town.
* I am definitely not convinced GIEFF is town.
* I keep going round and round with you.
* I am definitely not convinced Zech is town.
* The fact that alex started this and it took of and he didn't get a vote.

And if you consider GIEFF's stance on DDD and my preference yes.

And yes I think you nailed my "issues" this game more than once:

Something has bothered me about SpyreX since I replaced in; everything seems halfhearted.

It's really getting difficult to perceive who's scum when everyone's acting the same way (depressed), especially since I think what's important ITT is being lost. If people who are Town could politely stop acting scummy I think we could make progress.

It HAS been halfhearted. This game has bordered on the ridiculous. We're going to be at 100 pages+ before we actually see a lynch today guaranteed. And, of those additional 9 pages I'll go out on that limb and say 6 of them could be simply cut out with almost nothing lost.

I'm pushing 90 posts and I'm considered lurking. That should say something.

Taking a break for a few days helped but god in heaven this game needs some rails and some movement.

Now I'd have to ask about your appearance on the Kmd wagon, considering it went up in about the same amount of time. Bear in mind that GIEFF's case on Kmd wasn't really that good if you did much research into it, and your reason for jumping on the wagon was basically to chain lynches.

GIEFF does make a point about KMD-Camn's bizarro dance.

And, yes, I should have done some more research but by god can you blame me at this point?

Here's one for you though: Why are you so convinced that GIEFF is town? Do you not see some weird apologetic connection between GIEFF and DDD?

[SpyreX]

Yep, real straightforward:

Yeah, DDD has done nothing really scummy. Sort of like how bcc has done nothing scummy, although not to the same extent. It's hard to judge who is best to lynch - those who have contributed so little that they don't have much behavior to judge, or those who have contributed, but done so scummily. I don't think DDD has lurked so horribly that it is criminal, but it's still hard to judge his alignment.

What has DDD done that is scummy besides contribute lightly?

This is day 3. We can do better than just lynching one lightly-contributing player among many lightly-contributing players. If there are other reasons for suspecting DDD, I would like to see them, but right now it looks like another lurker-lynch.

So, lets look at Sensfan to see this wild difference:

Let's hope you're 2/2 on the quicklynch, Sens....

How confident are you that Cephrir is scum?

The hell? I'm really sorry, camn. I feel horrible - sorry if I ruined this game for you. Thanks, maffies. And thanks townies for not believing me.

Humbly yours,

GIEFF

Vote Sensfan

So, DDD is worth defending more than once. However, Sens is scum because of the hammer and that alone apparently?

*Note this defense of DDD is stronger than any attempts at a real case on Sens has been. I can dig up more if we need.

[SpyreX]

er... Cephir had also played the same way all game... SensFan has NOT played all game and when he posted, there were some scummy moves. That's why I voted him when I did and why I would maybe vote him now (although, right now, Battle Mage must be lynched)

2183 still doesn't really explain the KMD vote.

Did you just say Ceph had a "playstyle" and Sens HASN't played but his posts were scummy?

The KMD vote has been explained.

Can you rephrase this? You mean I didn't get to vote? Or I didn't get a vote against me?

That you didn't vote. On the wagon that grew rapidly after your case.

How is that not straightforward? The only case on DDD is that he is lurking. We've lynched 2 people mainly because they were lurking - I'm done with it. I've asked repeatedly for somebody to bring a case up to DDD that doesn't revolve mainly around lurking, but nobody has done it.

I'm not mystical enough to produce a case on a lurker that doesn't

have the fact he is lurking

as a major component but by god I sure did as this has went on:

Hold up. What in the hell is this?

You come off a whopping 10 posts to say that you're not going to join in the reindeer games unless you get a magic carpet to do it with?

Didn't seem that hard to me to follow. You explicitly said you're not going to be proactive. Further, that you weren't going to participate unless we forced you to.

Yea.

Seriously that whole exchange about him not posting then miraculously showing up to post and the awesome "pressure" votes that just vanish when really nothing was posted that is parsable. At this point even though its a struggle not having reads on 4 people is junk.

And AND AND saying one of these two is scum and not placing a vote? Really?

The hell?

No, seriously.

My argument has been that IF GIEFF is town he will be a NK before we reach true-lylo. This is not because he is SUPER TOWN, but because he has been the most active player in this game.

In comparison, we have team lurker-9000. HOwever, on top of wearing their hat you also seem to show up and say "ohh hey hows it going" right after you're mentioned a few times.

So, you're either Beetlejuice or power-lurking scum ex machina.

Ohh and DDD comes out of the woodwork to support this.

Consider me shocked and or awed.

So, yea, totally just "simple lurker' woo woo.

And for the other side:

1487 - In this post you, yourself say that he would "get away with a scum-hammer OR a misguided town-hammer". Ultimately, this is hammer talk.

2070 - Asking BM what he thinks about sens saying he'll hammer if he is going to be lynched?

2079 - No cases.

2107 - Quicklynching Cephrir talk again.

2114 - ? More hammer talk though for sure.

2191 - No cases. More of the "quicklynched a townie" business.

2194 - No cases. NK speculation that Sens would have been cleared if Ceph was scum.

2224 - NK Specualtion.

So, really, this breaks down into 2.5 points repeated over:

1.) Sens quickhammered.
1.5) He wasn't worried about being a NK if Ceph was scum.

2.) Sens hasn't made any cases.

As for 1 - I'm busting out the bold underline for this:

Ceph was playing like space-scum and was an absolutely fine lynch.

1.5 you state the obvious reason why he wouldn't be confirmed town because of it - the quicklynch by nature even if it HIT scum isn't going to be some kind of town crown.

And 2. Ohh 2. Has he made cases? Nope. However - has DDD, whom you so ardently defend, made cases?

If that's the case and one is -super- town and the other isn't, well then we're back to points 1 and 1.5 aren't we.

"But SpyreX, you feel the same way just inversed on the players."

I'm not 100% sold on Sens being town. However, I am far, far more concerned with the case on him. I should have held my guns before on DDD and I regret it.

No more. DDD goes the way of the rope.

[SpyreX]

And ultimately all your posts are about Sens "lurking" (not making cases) or throwing a hammer on super-townie Cephrir that must have got to l-1 all by himself. Not like DDD was on that wagon or anything but alas.

And, yea, I'm "defending" Sens because I want to see DDD lynched and you've opted to attack one and defend the other when both have been far, far less than stellar.

@Alex:

I am pushing, actively pushing, for DDD to get lynched. The main wagon is on Sens at the moment. Its not a function of alternatives.

[SpyreX]

I've already done that. More than once. We have no need to retrample old ground.

[SpyreX]

... did you just "lol, reactions" the majority of your play this game?

That didn't just happen.

[SpyreX]

So why not parse out what this game is "lol, reactions" and what was actually "hay this is me, being town, doing things I believe in"

[SpyreX]

A wonderful analysis except for, surprise, you leave the GIEFF / DDD pairing out of it if you were so sure there was scum on that wagon.

Not really surprised though.

[SpyreX]

Gieff: Case on KMD and vote
Vi: Agrees with case and vote
Sens: Votes, asserts agreement with case
DDD: Votes, asserts agreement with Sens
Spyrex: Resigns to lynch and sets up conditions for Gieff lynch the next day

Oh, and also... Unvote: Vote: Spyrex

I think it would be crazy to believe that Vi, Sens, and DDD could possibly all be scum together.

I never actually ruled out that pairing did I? Didn't you think I was paired with DDD a while back? Are you implying that you think DDD/Gieff/myself are the scumteam?

Considering that, you didn't even mention GIEFF as a possibility then yes you "ruled out that pairing".

DDD is scum. At least one of you and GIEFF is scum with him. All three of you being scum together would make sense but that'd be almost too damn easy.

There, no implications, all spelled out all nice and clear.

[SpyreX]

Because I could be wrong? And if I was wrong about the triumvirate KMD flipping scum would go a long way to exonerating GIEFF in my mind?

....

Being the initiator of a wagon doesn't mean that you are not part of how it got to L-1. This is like backwards ALL THE HAMMERERS FAULT talk.

[SpyreX]

Yes but how in the blue blazes does that mean you aren't culpable?

If GIEFF-scum makes a case and town pick up on it then your partners bend it WHAM we have us an L-1 wagon.

Thats not a difficult undertaking in normal times. In this game, even less.

[SpyreX]

Its le sigh get it right.

And yea I'd sure said "never make any cases ever."

Not: If you think a wagon has scum on it you are not cleared because you started a case they jumped on.

Come on where's your bro with his snipe-vote. Lets make this as obvious as possible, no?

[SpyreX]

What did you mean by this, Spyrex?

And jammer, note that as soon as Spy was called out on his KMD vote (by Vi in Post 2100, he quickly unvoted, and didn't come back to the thread for four days.

That I had some out-of-game things that were getting under my skin and affecting my play?

Where I said I had some burnout and then went v/la for a few days and had it in my sig?

Yea.

[SpyreX]

@GIEFF:

My out of game irritation led to both me voting for KMD AND "pushing the chain lynch" because it is irritating to say the least to not be able to get any real traction on DDD.

[SpyreX]

Because that would be "out of game" irritation now wouldn't it?

[SpyreX]

Yes, "out of game" issues exacerbated "in game" frustrations.

Hence, the line "Some of that was serious out-of-game irritation."

@GIEFF:

No qualms at all about Zech turning into your parrot / ardent defender? Especially considering his voting record?

Course not.

[SpyreX]

Thats not the direction I'm talking about lordy be:

Zachrulez
Day 1

Vote: Gieff (Post 46)

Unvote:Vote: Mastin (Post 63)
FOS: Alexhans (Post 298)

Unvote: Vote: Gieff (Post 1024)

Unvote: Vote: Mastin (Post 1062)
Day 2
Vote: Benmage (Post 1104)

Vote: Gieff (Post 1202)

Unvote: Vote: blackcatcontract (Post 1311)
Unvote Vote: Cephrir (Post 1453)
Day 3
Vote: Debonair Danny Dipeitro. (Post 1563)
Unvote, Vote: Alex (Post 1651)
Vote: Alexhans (Post 1657)
Unvote, Vote: Alex (Post 1701)
Unvote: Vote: Battle Mage (Post 1712)
Vote: Sensfan (Post 2110)
Unvote: Vote: Spyrex (Post 2296)

[SpyreX]

Course not. Why would you?

This game makes me want to pound my head into a wall.

[SpyreX]

Come on now GIEFF is obviously picking on me and even I see it.

However, I do love the "Sens I CAN NEVER TRUST ANYTHING YOU EVER SAY EVER (P.S. Dig at SpyreX)

Can you link the case Sens didn't answer?

In other news:

Alex IS misrepping the hell out of Vi.

However, the overall feel of that whole explosion is fairly with one major caveat:

"fuck em all, let them lose"

Why would you say "them" and not some form of "I" if you are implying a town loss?

That stands out like a sore thumb.

[SpyreX]

....

Alex address my question.

Sensfan you better have a good explanation for that.

[SpyreX]

Yea I'm real stupid.

"They" or "Them" implies a group separate from yourself such as in the phrase "They are jerks."

So, if you were trying to say due to the bad play the town, which you are implying you are a part of, deserve the loss then:

"Fuck it, we deserve the loss."
"Fuck it, you guys are going to make us lose."

OR, if we want to get tricky with implications:

"Fuck everyone, they deserve the win."

However:

"Fuck them all, let them lose" with the pair of thems in this framework makes no sense as a town statement.

Taking this farther you've also implied both DDD and SF are town, unless you were trying to say fuck all the scum let all the scum lose.

And that is a lot of swearing for science.

[SpyreX]

Ohh wow I missed this:

When I asked ONE question how in the hells could I have fabricated anything unless it was just absolutely me shooting rainbows out of my eyes?

[SpyreX]

... What in the hell?

Yes. You say you don't care if you lose then paraphrase it into "them" losing.

To steal a page from Vi this line:

This is not about what COULD Be... this is about finding what it IS.

May be the best rhetoric I've seen ever.

[SpyreX]

Rainbow-eye lasers.

But seriously. That one just makes my head explode.

[SpyreX]

Thats not what I was getting at though. I asked him A question about his statement and he said I was fabricating things...which isnt possible unless I just made up his statement.

As for the bottom is that an elaborate way of saying there are multiple scum in: KMD, Jammer, Battle Mage?

Because that is an odd statement.

[SpyreX]

I thought DDD posted today?

@Sens:

There's no personal beef at all. If the game is getting under your skin take a break - there's absolutely no harm in that.

Not sure what spawned that backlash though.

[SpyreX]

Good gravy what is with all the reactionary voting?

[SpyreX]

Then we get to teleport back a while.

I've no intention of voting for either mage. They are both sill pretty damn obvTown to me.

[SpyreX]

Battle Mage started out town for me with his day 1 "gambit" / the reactions to it and being able to call out the Cephrir lynch as a good move (which is was) and a general "feel" of his responses to the cases against him.

Here's one for you though: you just hopped on a wagon with two of the group of four you said have a high chance of being scum. No flags there?

[SpyreX]

Never has there EVER been MORE OF A WALL OF NOTHING.

I AM OFFENDED.

First off, yes. A thousand times yes. This is the most dysfunctional game I've played in.

The BM day 1 gambit was his whole "Are you claiming cop" which turned into probably 10 pages of crazy when, as I said way back then, that when coupled with the response REEKS of town.

Then there's you, SpyreX, who likes to say really scummy things about people yet you manage to come off sounding decent when you're not trying to chain-lynch people.

]

The only part I can address. I'm trying to stop it. Partially because its not helpful and partially because its been wrought quite a bit from just irritation at the game.

So, I've come back to where I was sitting. On DDD. The scum.

One day at a time.

However, these two pieces of exchange I am not fond of:

GIEFF, who I'm reading as Town because he's being extremely active in a game where there's little scum incentive to be as active as he has been.

I see the game similarly, Vi. Too many people look like scum. Even you have looked scummy in the last two pages. I almost have to just accept you being town though, because if you are not, then we are in big trouble, based on all the inactivity/apathy/faulty logic elsewhere in this game.

Please tell me its more than just a function of activity.

Further, simply town-by-process of elimination?

Ohh snap preview edit'd:

Why would Vi-scum be a town loss? If this is under the guise of "Vi is playing a very town game" then why not just say so the first time instead of apocalpytico.

[SpyreX]

Ohh yea:

Vi, you seem clear on KMD lurking versus V/LA lately. Can you expand without breaking THE RULES?

[SpyreX]

So GIEFF why is Jammer scum?

Nice and clear, since I'm seeing scum-by-association logic (that thing you've harped on me so much about) in regards to not comparing DDD and myself under the same grounds?

[SpyreX]

I'm looking at this discourse of not applying the same standards to DDD and I and the natural exposition that GIEFF thinks DDD is town and I am scum so if Jammer thinks DDD is scum and I am town...

As for BM, yes. Although, said sitewide rule could be applied on both sides thus far.

[SpyreX]

Thats the point I keep seeing belabored into the ground in the last couple pages - the "extra" tells via me and DDD.

I haven't seen anything of BM sans putting up the locked thread for his new game, so...

[SpyreX]

I keep seeing an emphasis on jammer not applying the same logic to both DDD and I as a push.

... his last post was Tuesday? That's a bit different.

Anywho, the wife is demanding summer cleaning. Weep for me.

[SpyreX]

How old did you think I AM?

Sheesh

[SpyreX]

Hmm. I guess I'm young at heart (or words).

KMD more actual catching up and less banter. Only the caught up may banter. Its in the rules.

(As an aside you were both about where I would have guessed so).

[SpyreX]

You know what they say about age being mandatory and maturity being optional.

Are you saying I'm immature! OFFENENDED.

No, I dig. I figured I'd be a bit more what I thought adults were by 28. I chose, instead, to be awesome.

@KMD:

Why Gieff in your "town" list?

Actually, at least a line or two on each and why they are where they are?

[SpyreX]

I'm 25. I have a wife. I love journey. Just FYI.

Looks like I'm the night-kill tonight. This game is weird. BM is scum. Sens is scum. Spyrex is like my best friend but I now he's scum sort of like in the godfather where it hurts me to say so, but I can't ignore it. Sorry spy-spy. Maybe in the next game we'll be on the same team and I can be your buddy.

Don't stop believin'

Little odd that Jammer isn't on this list.

Glad I'm not the only one in the love-hate you're-scum-but-I-want-to-pinch-your-cheeks dance here.

BM needs to play some catchup asap. Not too psyched at the momo.

[SpyreX]

Yeah. Trying to misrep my wording into a slip is a fabrication.

a break? did he say he was taking a break?

You realize I had just ONE vote on me when he asked me to claim? You keep refusing to acknowledge the possibility of being a scum tactic to look town. Fake scumhunting.

A fabrication implies that I'm making something up.

I didn't even "misrep" you. I asked a question.

Which you said was bullshit. And then accused GIEFF and I (the one time we've been on the same page, mark it in your calendars) of pushing the limits of stupidity.

And more grammatics from that same post:

So you don't think that SpyreX's point is utter crap and even

fabricated points?

What points?

---

A break, as in leaving the game and taking a break from Mafia.

---

The number of votes has nothing to do with it. The fact it is a mountainous setup and the responses to it when there was no risk and potential reward make that town.

Now, if the general responses were "OHH GOD SO TOWN" I would be a bit weary, but they weren't, so..

@DDD:
2527: Interesting. Good.

... What post is this supposed to be? 2525 with the irony cake?

[SpyreX]

... Is this an elaborate "this isn't how I play as scum" business?

Ohh meta, you glorious thing.

[SpyreX]

I'll stay away from my soapbox about meta. For now.

Prod: BM
Prod: SensFan

[SpyreX]

I have no idea what just happened in this exchange.

Is this the same GIEFF that started the KMD train and lamented that Vi-scum would mean absolute loss?

I... what?

[SpyreX]

If it is a function of stopping a no lynch I will vote BM.

However, I still find that to be an abysmal vote.

@GIEFF:

See that case on jammer? That would have been nice as a starting point.

See the whole "Vote SpyreX or get lynched" business? That's not so awesome. Doubly so when -you- aren't even voting for me.

[SpyreX]

Really? Lolreactions?

Here's a question of mafia ethics I have:

When the search was up, I had no qualms busting someone if I saw they were avoiding a game.

Now that its down, I'm starting to see some active avoidance happenstance. I haven't jumped all over this because it feels like dragging external-game information into this game.

Thoughts?

[SpyreX]

In that case: Jammer and BM have both been active on site. And not in here.

I really dont like it because I STILL think BM is town and am not ultraphysched about it.

Jammer's case seems so backwards and convoluted I don't like it. However, I really dont like him falling to the wayside as heat is applied.

[SpyreX]

Well that's half the battle there.

I guess I didn't look carefully at WHEN you'd been posting - just that you had been posting on that page.

I like 2652 a lot, overall.

[SpyreX]

Ohh wow its finally happened with 4 days to a deadline.

I am shocked and or awed.

Spy's main reason for calling Battle Mage town is the "trap" he pulled, asking someone to claim cop.

Yet when me, camn, and Kai did the same thing, Spy said:

Why the inconsistency?

Well, see, the fact we had just went through that whole debacle means that

regardless of alignment

someone who gave the most basic of reads wouldn't go "ohh hay.'

Versus someone playing who may not have read the OP, which I know I often don't do.

And, of course, the fact that there was so much crazy around BM after that (a huge component for it) and then it turns into doing it AGAIN?

Spyrex defended Mastin quite well early on, but ended up on the Mastin wagon. And as SOON as he voted, he said "I'm not thrilled with this," starting his mislynch-distancing early.

I started out defending him because, yea. Then he stopped playing the game. I was not thrilled with his lynch. I, however, was even less thrilled with the camn lynch.

In fact, the other part of the line you opted to not quote was:

However, setting yourself up and then vanishing and letting other schmucks pick up your defense can suck a donkey.

He then tried to claim that Mastin didn't mention his copy-paste issue in other threads, when in reality, Mastin DID mention it. When I called him on this, he ignored it, instead saying:

Hold up a second. Lets go way back (its really awesome that this is brought up when we dont have search fyi).

As I've said elsewhere,

I'm having access problems

with MS.net at my home computer. In the games where I am pages behind, this will be a hindrance; I don't have time in 30 minutes to catch up. It should be fixed by tomorrow; I'll see what I can do then.

Ohh hay Mastin

posted just now in a different thread and made no mention of this issue.

Funny how that works.

And actually, Mastin DID mention his issue - no copy-and-paste.

Yep, no copy-and-paste = I can't access and thus have no reason to post.

The camn-kill made little sense, but Spy-scum had a motive: rubbing her towniness in my face.

Actually, this one is awesome.

Lets go look back some more.

The hell? I'm really sorry, camn. I feel horrible - sorry if I ruined this game for you. Thanks, maffies. And thanks townies for not believing me.

Humbly yours,

GIEFF

Vote Sensfan

In comparison:

[quote="All the posts Spyrex is rubbing it in GIEFF's face][/quote]

So, where is this motive you've got for me making that kill? (I'll leave my scum-hat at the door about that kill, but). In fact, if anything did you not use that kill to be contrite and say that you'd take a back burner because you were soo wrong?

His scumhunting early on focused on the amount of words people wrote, not on their content. He declared with certainty that all the people posting a lot were anti-town, and trying to protect their lurking buddies. Yet this was all completely subjective - he ignored camn and kmd, who were both posting a whole lot, and in long posts, at the time Spyrex accused some of "spew." And making up a formula like this and letting it do the scumhunting for you is a great way, as scum, to appear to be scumhunting without having to go through the difficulty of faking a more complex analysis.

I thought "spew" was a clear idea. Vomit. Words without meaning. Words designed to be a smokescreen.

And you're right I never addressed the other part:

I dont include KMD or Camn in that list because I dont find them scummy. If I need to write a thesis showing the difference in the posting to differentiate them I will but god in heaven why should I need to. I dont think they're doing what I was illustrating.

He tried to chain-lynch me through Cephrir.

Yep. Because your defense of Cephrir made absolutely no sense. Ceph got lynched because he was scummy. If he was scum, you were dead.

However, and the scum-hat comes out for this twofold: If Cephrir is town and I am scum trying to chain lynch you via Cephrir's alignment (if Ceph is scum you are scum) wouldn't doing JUST THAT be counterproductive?

Even better. Why that one and not the KMD one? That one actually WOULD make sense from me being scum trying to lynch you via KMD (If KMD is town, you are scum) being town now wouldn't it?

He was inconsistent in his treatment of bcc's and Cephrir's lurking, although both lurked similarly, picking up prods, yet not posting:

Ceph was a better lynch. BCC was a replacement. BCC, the next day, then got replaced. If BCC had taken his prod and didn't, BCC would be dead now.

He said I was a good night kill, saying that there hasn't been a lot of suspicion thrown my way, and then tried to weasel out of it with semantics, saying he meant just significant discussion. More attempts to incriminate me based on things only scum can control.

This again. Yes, if you started behaving like town you would be a good night kill. No, this isn't happening. No, there hasn't been a lot of concentrated suspicion your way. Yes, there is a difference between "discussion" and "significant discussion". You have had the former, you still have not had the latter.

More semantics trying to explain away the KMD L-1 vote.

Yea. Again this is one of those awesome no search makes it really great. Needless to say if you want to be a SUPER SLEUTH you can look after that point and see if I was on at all. (Hint: I wasn't).

This game, in and of itself, is frustrating. If you are going to make the argument that I haven't made that clear then I can't help you.
I had a wave of real-life business that was making it harder to play.
These two things culminated in my disgust vote.

As I said in 2108:

Some of that

was serious out-of-game irritation.

I've been pushing DDD the opportunistic-lyncher and no ground hath been gained and GIEFF comes up with a few good points (sans the fact DDD was on it) and I swear it got more traction than 3 or I'm losing my mind entirely.

I've got some burnout with this game and I need to get past it. This isn't a let me feel my FEELINGS but my play for the last bit has been less than stellar.

And then I vanished.

-----

The thing that gets me about all of this is that it reeks of "looking for things to justify me thinking he's scum" versus "looking for things that make me think he is scum."

And the jammer vote coming out as lol, reactions and a whole new wagon this close to deadline (I'm pretty sure you were a BM is scum proponent) is smokin sweet.

[SpyreX]

So the rest of it was just padding? Or distorted to fit the desire to have a whole case? Or just made up in the case of the camn-business?

If the KMD vote was the issue and made me the "best lynch" from that point everything else has been "lol, reactions"?

Further, if that was the point and semantics are how I argued out of it why in the name of Zeus did you stop pressing on me?

Hopefully votes'll slide to your bud DDD and then you can be dealt with later.

[SpyreX]

You didn't stop pressing on me when you started reaction-gate?

None of that is padding huh? Swish.

By announcing your hand-holding with DDD him being scum the fact I'll go all hogs out on you which is what I said what feels like 4000 pages ago in a better world? Yep.

I still like how the actually I can see it being scummy one I did - the KMD, wasn't the focus.

[SpyreX]

Have I been expecting you to vote me?

Of course. You've done that before.

What I was really waiting for was the "case" to go with the vote.

Which you so kindly gave with deadline looming AND the only other viable wagon being someone I'm still sure is town. Even with the avoidance we're seeing.

[SpyreX]

No, honestly I was expecting it later in the game.

Because, get this, if you ARE town I don't expect to get NK'd until you are dead.

And if you are are scum like I suspect, I don't expect to get NK'd because it would be too much flak - unless you're hung first.

And you've been tying jammer to me with this no matter how you want to spin it. So, when that doesn't take off you'll come back to good ol SpyreX.

[SpyreX]

I don't have a "problem" with you trying to chain lynch jammer through me. Nothing wrong with playing for connections.

The hypocrisy of it and how sanctimonious you've been about my doing it with you kills me though.

Spyrex needs lynching. Make it happen. A townie would NEVER put someone at L-1 right after complaining about his #1 scum-target voting him, based on a case that ANOTHER big scum-target started.

The only way he could explain it was based on external irritation, which is unverifiable, and when pressed on it, he then tried to claim it was in-game irritation, and when pressed on that, said he meant BOTH in-game and out-of-game irritation.

Isn't the much simpler explanation that he is scum, who doesn't really find either me OR DDD scummy? Distancing himself from the L-1 vote by "sighing" and trying to blame the lynch on me?

NEVER right? Big words. IF I was wrong about you and KMD was scum because the chances of YOU being the bus in that situaton were minimal - then there is a dead scum and a cleared (or dead) GIEFF. Thats win-win.

As for the second part. This actually bothers me. I am not going to fake real-life issues to flake out of a game. That is more than a little insulting.

That's not including (OHH NO SEMANTICS) the fact that last time I checked the basic premise of a sentence like "Some of that was out of game irritation" would clearly imply some of it, in fact, was in game irritation. Silly me and my choosing words that mean the things that I want them to mean based on grammatical structure.

If it comes down to me getting lynched over that (which I doubt) then ultimately that's kool and the gang - no way you'd avoid the lynch tomorrow. Which brings the dominoes falling down.

[SpyreX]

You're right, I shouldn't have used the word "Unverifiable." I think lying about external circumstances like that to excuse scummy play is akin to cheating, and you seem to have enough integrity not to do something like that.

But the fact remains that the only explanation you could provide for your scummy behavior was external to the game. And your explanation changed over time when you were pressured about it.

You KNOW what you did was scummy - you've admitted as much. So why are you so sure that I am scum because I'm trying to lynch you? If you are town, what makes you so sure I wouldn't avoid the lynch tomorrow?

First, thank you.

Second. Show how it "changed" versus me explaining myself that some was out of game and some was in game. Go for it.

Third. If I get lynched for this why are you dead in the water tomorrow?

Because at heart -

this "case" wasn't genuine

. Parts of it were removed from context and other parts were built on conjecture that never happened.

When I posted as such the case went away and came back to "Well its all about the L-1 vote anyways."

"Out-of-game irritation" was used to justify your L-1 vote on Kmd, not your lurking behavior. (SpyreX #76)

That "unverifiable" business I assumed was not just the vote my after my unvote when I took a small hiatus.

The hell I'm a lurker? Awesome.

The prospect of a mislynch was clearly not enough to justify yourself; apparently you had to raise the stakes with the possibility guarantee of a revenge lynch if he's wrong.

People are wrong all the time. Scum are intentionally wrong; Townies, unintentionally so and more often so. By threatening the major proponent of your lynch with full responsibility that would necessarily include a counterlynch, you've crossed the line into unacceptability. Never mind that you would necessarily have no way of enforcing that threat unless you had scumpartners to back you up.

I am now willing to support a SpyreX lynch today without reservations. In fact, why not--

If I get lynched today and turn up town are you* really going to a.) be surprised when GIEFF is alive tomorrow and b.) go "ohh hey that lynch yesterday, you know the one that happened with like 4 days to go, that was a mislynch? Yea, that guy that started it - totally town because town can make mistakes."

As for the bottom rhetoric - what?

Yes. If I die looking at the circumstances the chance of this being scum-driven are high. So, yes, I'm calling him out on it

when I am still alive

to make reference to it.

As I would be dead I couldn't "enforce" that threat. However, if I am scum how the hell could I have partners back up a threat built on the premise I am town?

I just dont understand.

[SpyreX]

I'm missing context, information, or something. Could you explain to me what this is about?

2658. His "case" on me that turned right back into the KMD vote.

"Totally Town"? You insult me. Besides, there would be four other people on that wagon besides myself and GIEFF. Pinning all of the blame on GIEFF seems rather unfair, ne?

Well, Zech and GIEFF's relationship this game has been amazing. I still am leaning on you being town.

So... yea. Everything of this reeks of scum-machinations. So when I say after the flip GIEFF should damn well be the lynch and I get "everyone makes mistakes" my head explodes a bit.

I'm definitely, definitely not trying to insult you.

The only thing bothering me is that the implication from it is BM-scum which doesn't make sense to me.

Please elaborate on "these circumstances".

And the answer to the second line - you can't. Thus, you have no room to insist that GIEFF is going to unavoidably get lynched tomorrow if you flip Town. Is it possible? Sure. Is it inevitable? Of course not.

The time from now until deadline and the absence of anything really changing to push it now.

The "case" that was just bolstering a single point and, when discussed, was dropped in favor of said point.

The Zech powerskip onto it.

---

As for the second, maybe its just a matter of wording. I'll try again:

If I am lynched due to this in a deadline scramble, after I flip town, if the existing town members do not kill GIEFF immediately then I can't help you. P.S. After GIEFF flips scum then go ahead and lynch the hell out of DDD.

Love,

SpyreX from the beyond.

So, maybe not "will" be lynched but definitely "should" be lynched.

This is the point. If you are town, how the hell could you enforce the threat if you are dead?

And this makes your threat read as just an empty attempt to try to scare me off your lynch. If you're town and convinced I'm scum, why aren't you voting me? Why aren't you making a case on me? You're not - you're just posturing, trying to make me worry about getting mislynched myself tomorrow in case you are town.

Wasn't your vote for KMD scummy?

And if I can't enforce it why would you worry?

Because, after I flip you damn well better be killed for it.

Why am I not voting you? Risk/Reward. Pretty sure we had this talk a million years ago.

It's pretty moot since if I got my best wishes of wishes and DDD dangled when he flipped "GIEFF's scum partner" you'd go tomorrow anywho.

Was my vote for KMD scummy? It sure isn't the best thought out move. It was fueled more by irritation and pure spite than logic.

So, could it be scummy? Sure.

I'm pretty sure I never denied that.

[SpyreX]

For all the fluff around it.
And the timing.

Like I said the only thing I have major issue with is that the obvious implication is BM is a partner which doesn't make sense.

If the other stuff didn't matter, why paint it as such?

[SpyreX]

Except for the "less-scummy" actions were fabrications or ripped from context in such a way that I can't think it was accidental.

If the crux is the KMD vote why wait until NOW for the mad reals vote and the case to pad it?

The four days left wagon off BM as a move to keep him alive?

[SpyreX]

The hell?

My vote is where it is. The reasons haven't changed.

I cant vote him more than once.

[SpyreX]

What has DDD done in the last 9 days?

How would any of that be different than what I brought up so long ago that you went "Ohh, well what ELSE has he done scummy?"

[SpyreX]

Ohh you've got to be kidding me.

Yes I want him lynched. I have, all day. You've been there to derail it more than once.

No sir haven't done anything to help THE TOWN (TM GIEFF PENDING) at all.

This all seems too familiar. Hmm, fancy that.

[SpyreX]

....

I called you out on it. I've mentioned the fact you've lept into bed with him more than once.

God. We've done all this before. I swear. I'm not crazy.

I'm NOT CRAZY.

[SpyreX]

... What just happened?

Anyways:

DDD didn't DO anything in those 9 days.

And if that was such an issue why did you wait said 9 days to say anything to me about it?

I dont understand.

[SpyreX]

I'm waiting for him to come back and explain that.

If I can't get DDD (as the above looks) I will jump to GIEFF.

[SpyreX]

Yes, I was quaking in my boots.

Notice I said I STILL want a DDD lynch.

However, you coming back and saying exactly what you did (combination of lol, reactions + a snipe at me) was pretty much what I expected.

Unvote, Vote: GIEFF

Well, there you go.

[SpyreX]

Note:

If we want to pull this together and lynch DDD I will happily oblige.

[SpyreX]

After the self-vote pile on?

Nope. That's a good as time as any for a buddy to bus. OR to make me weary enough to not vote.

I'm not voting for BM today. Also not planning on voting myself.

DDD or GIEFF.

[SpyreX]

... huh.

Despite that I still think BM is town. And the early events set the tone, but calling the Ceph lynch what it was despite "the poor townie mislynch" furthered that.

Love how both my town calls are voting for me.

I don't think KMD will be back. Nor SensFan.

So, really its on alex.

[SpyreX]

Yea you're getting night killed I like adding that on like you're getting killed tonight.

It is truly amazing that its come down to this.

Come 6ish PST (9ish EST) if need be to stop this from going to a damn nolynch I will vote myself. Which will mean that Vi should hop over.

If, to stop an awwwessommeee nolynch, I end up lynching myself: tomorrow, lynch GIEFF. From beyond the grave I command this.

Deal?

[SpyreX]

And I am scum I would lynch myself to get you lynched considering if I flip scum no way would what I am saying go through?

[SpyreX]

Wow thats some awesome grammar there.

And, instead - I am scum that would lynch myself to get you lynched considering if I flip scum no way would what I am trying to do go through?

Yea, confidence: the penultimate scumtell.

[SpyreX]

Well, that was a delicious lunch/dinner.

And I come back to this.

I am honestly surprised that Sens came in and laid a vote down.

3:30 left. If it comes down to a nolynch I will shift my vote but seriously.

and Vi:

If I'm wrong on this, please let me know yesterday. Either way, it's pretty obvious you're flinging accusations wherever you can land them and seeing which ones stick.

One big mistake. Its "accusation" that I freely admitted to. The rest of the padding was pish-poshed away and his whole self-vote lol, reactions is the SAME THING that apparently fueled the KMD case AND was designed to snipe at me.

So, Vi, in the event that you are alive tomorrow and I end up getting to lynch myself. Please, PLEASE make sure he hangs for this.

Which is funny considering all the flack I got earlier for calling just this.

[SpyreX]

Its the yin to the yang of you giving me your vote. Be my voice from the graave.

I'm very interested to see if KMD shows up.

Note: I said 6 but people have shown up and I will be around so I'll push it later but there will NOT be a nolynch. If there is, lynch me tomorrow period.

[SpyreX]

In a perfect world, KMD will cast the vote.

However, if it comes down to less-than-perfect I'd rather not have to self-hammer.

So, Zech:

The KMD-Gate aside, what do YOU think about the padding he put on his case that got pished-poshed away, the selfvote / quit threat, and the repetition of the point when the aboves didn't do what he'd hoped?

[SpyreX]

The fact that after I addressed that it went directly back to "Well, the vote, you see" and didn't even bother addressing anything I said about his contextual rips.

And the one that gets me and I want to make really clear:

His whole I killed camn to rub it in when he immediately came off apologetic and I haven't said a word about that... well, ever.

Thats not just padding its 100% made up.

Sorry about Zech (I have a buddy named Zech but pronounced Zach).

[SpyreX]

That, in and of itself, is kind of a catch-22. You can't be sure I'd do it until I do it and at that point its done and I'm lynched... so

If it comes between that and a nolynch I will. 1-1 isn't bad. However, him flipping scum and them pretty much being forced to kill me tonight (because one should see that this isn't a bus) is a MUCH better 1-1.

[SpyreX]

The timing of your push, the case itself, the backpedaling and everything else point to you being scum.

Yes, I'm confident in this read. Just like I'm confident about the mages. And DDD.

Oddly enough waaaay back when weren't you attacking me for being scum because I wasn't confident?

And your case isn't poor? Why didn't you discuss it if it wasn't? Instead, you went "those don't matter, its the L-1 vote." and that mantra pushed this all the way to here.

And if its just conjecture why did you put it in where you did? And base said conjecture on something that didn't happen?

[SpyreX]

It would have been far more

genuine

if you hadn't bothered padding your case.

See, contextual ripping, conjecture based on things that didn't happen, and then

pretending the case didn't happen when called on it

aren't what we call "town business"

If you had went "Nope, this is enough for the vote" and HELD it instead of waiting until deadline to have it resurface I might have been a bit more worried about you actually being town.

As is. No way.

[SpyreX]

And if it comes to it I will. However, that doesn't change its a better situation as a whole if they, in fact, lynch you and have you come up scum first.

[SpyreX]

.... if the case matters discussion about the POINTS matter.

If the case IS the KMD vote why pretend otherwise?

How am I distracting when I freely admit I made said vote and it was not the best maneuver?

And when your conjecture on a past event is based under a set of events that 1.) didn't happen and 2.) have an equal and opposite scum-rationale that DID happen?

Or, an even better example: isn't most chain lynching (sans my KMD which was retarded) simply conjecture based on the flip (X is scum, Y is scum)?

Isn't that one of the many things you've said I'm soo scummy for doing?

Or, is just this more of my semantics?

[SpyreX]

The hell I'm straw manning it?

I'm saying that the case is padding.

I'm saying further, as you admitted here:

Were it not for the KMD vote, I would not be pushing your lynch.

Doesn't make ANY sense considering the time-lapse for the wagon. Further, if it was that concrete why would you bring the other stuff into it?

Are you really trying to equate chain-lynching with searching for possible scum motivations? Just because both have to do with conjecture? You're really reaching here.

Sans KMD (which was retarded) whats the true difference between:

If A is scum, B is probably scum due to relationships.
A killed X to make B look bad.

Which would be fine but it was really:

A killed X to rub it in B's face (and the latter part never happened but, in fact, B apologized and then said he'd take a step back because he was soo wrong).

I self-voted because jammer and Spyrex kept sniping at me without voting, so I wanted to see how they would react. Both were obviously very scared to vote me, and they have only done so now when they have the safety of numbers alongside them on the wagon.

Yes, I was terrified.

If right now we all said 'Ohh, hey, lets lynch DDD' and had the numbers I would do it in a second.

And then TOMORROW when he flips scum you'd get lynched.

Much like how TOMORROW when you flip scum he'll get lynched.

[SpyreX]

So, to drink from the glass of WIFOM?

Camn was about the only person in this game to call me town. Why would I kill her?

Further, if I was scum and you were town, why would I "rub it in your face" versus letting you actually GET HER LYNCHED and then flip on you for it?

Baltar was THE most even keel and active (without being scummy) players around. It was a pretty obvious kill regardless of personal gain. Although you do raise a good point about looking at who he was pushing on before he ate it.

Which I'll do now.

[SpyreX]

I just looked and VP says GIEFF is town but sure has some issues with it. Namely the spew I was referencing all along and the consistent pushing on camn.

Which he kept doing.

Odd, huh.

[SpyreX]

... are you serious?

[SpyreX]

Sorry about my delay.

I am officially confused. I get choo-chooed up to L-1 yesterday and then after that and a town flip... nothing?

Normally I'd be totally psyched but no way in hell am I going to be the lylo-patsy lynch.

I'm calling it out now. Confirm me today, or lynch me. The chances of me being an NK after that fiasco are minimal.

Especially with Zach's backhanded setup today - without a vote for either of his "thar' be scum" post AND the fact it puts DDD and I together.

GIEFF being town confuses me and busts up the DDD-GIEFF connection. Luckily DDD is still nice and scummy all on his own. The 3 lynches and 3 first-votes is very interesting.

Mage's are still obvious town.

Alex's nolynch business really bothers me because on that off-chance it is 4 left that is a win and, ultimately, a mage would be dead and we'd be where we are now.

Jammer needs to speak up. KMD as well.

Sens, still, feels town but I really don't like the up the mage tree.

Down with DDD or Zach today. Especially after 2950.

Vote: Zach

[SpyreX]

I was just explaining that IF WE WERE 10 I would suggest a nolynch because IT WOULDNT MAKE US LOSE. We are 9! If there's 4 scum and Zach isn't scum right now... we've probably lost unless you 2 in his waggon are scum and the rest have not checked the VC yet.

I'm still holding that the chances of 4 are minimal. Asking for a nolynch was what piqued my curiosity about that.

But, you are right. So, issues with that rescinded.

Unvote

Actually, I'm getting cart before the horse some.

I've got some issues with Zach, which I will illustrate AFTER the wagoners explain said wagon.

As for who is scummier? My issues are with your play and that vote analysis-ish. My issues with DDD have been the absence of play. However, he has opted to take a stance today on you I would also like explained.

[SpyreX]

I'm giving them a chance to give a reason before I embark on my crusade.

Because, see, I'm still pretty sold on them being town but jump-jump-goose doesn't work at this point.

[SpyreX]

So we've got "gut" + "?" + (trying to get Alex's vote) for the reasons on Zach?

Sweet.

[SpyreX]

At the time I assumed it was a bus. As it sits, I am not sure.

What do you think about DDD saying barring something seismic he wont be voting for you?

[SpyreX]

No one wants to put a case together on Zach?

Sweet. Well, regardless the fact that jammer chainsaw'd KMD's vote on Zach and called it such makes me more than willing to go:

Unvote, Vote: Jammer

And back to this great world.

I could see Jammer-scum, Zach-scum or Jammer-scum, Zach-town after that manuever but despite my issues (which apparently are only mine) I can't see Jammer-town, Zach-scum and have huge reservations with Jammer-town, Zach-town with my other reads.

I'd also jump a DDD in a heartbeat.

[SpyreX]

No, he chainsawed him for voting you and announced it. He -could- be trying to implicate you but that just doesn't make sense as a town move.

[SpyreX]

Well I like KMD's thought process but I'm definitely not down with the lack of rationales for the opinions themselves on the players.

And, really, if there is a Zach-Jammer connection after that debacle it'd be more the other way than not.

So

[SpyreX]

Not one, nor two, but the whole scumteam?

Awesome.

Actually, this makes me think that the Jammer vote for KMD was some scum fake infighting - KMD would have looked a lot better tomorrow if Jammer is scum after that whole debacle.

Yea, comfortable with my Jammer vote. Calling Zach and I scum together for this makes me far more sure about Zach-town and Jammer-scum in this debacle.

[SpyreX]

I'd like that read explained. See, I had things I saw but wanted to see beforehand and still haven't seen.

As for the "major bandwagons" - that is good rhetoric until you look at them contextually.

- Mastin stopped playing as a function of pressure.
- Cephrir, again, was a fine lynch considering all that content combined with staying in the game instead of being prodded out
- GIEFF, well after that whole fiasco I was damn near sure he was scum and the other choice was me

So, yea, being part of every wagon doesn't bother me and real hard for me to snirk condemnation over it.

I'll give you that BM has been less than stellar today and I dont like it. I'm holding to my original read though.

[SpyreX]

The read on Zach. The one on me would be nice though too.

Hell, any reads solidified.

[SpyreX]

Hahaha what a sense of deja-vu

Zach and I are scum together, except for when we aren't.

If KMD is scum, my money is on Jammer/Sensfan. Especially with the Zach tie-in (if Zach Town, Jammer isn't a suspect).

I am fine with this (not L-1'ing yet). I'd prefer Jammer. I'm NOT lynching Zach today after the way that wagon went.

[SpyreX]

Its doubly disconcerting when I've seen SF on site in multiple places too.

Blah.

[SpyreX]

.... really?

KMD and Jammer go at it for a couple rounds and then makeup to land on BM?

Not buying it. Not one bit.

Both of em are scum after that maneuver.

[SpyreX]

Then come a toot-toot on the jammer wagon.

[SpyreX]

Ohh, sup lylo. Sup pair of votes and a pseudovote.

I'm not liking either of these choices. Between the two rationales Ben's reflexive vote bothers me far more, though.

Expect more from me when I'm awake and football is done tomorrow.

[SpyreX]

Vote: Benmage

I know I've been going on about it but.

[SpyreX]

.... I just preview hammered?

Awesome.

[SpyreX]

I'll freely admit I am 100% baffled at my not getting lynched after the GIEFF lynch.

[SpyreX]

I was floored when GIEFF self-hammered and said not to lynch me. There was no way I thought anyone would have bought into it - especially, if you were following GIEFF from the grave KMD should have been the lynch.

Overall, a lot of my play actually wasn't modified too much by being scum: Mastin falling off the world after that start WAS scummy enough I would have voted, Ceph not posting after night confirming was scummy and I probably would have been fighting about DDD and GIEFF the same way.

The biggest switch I did was the L-1 on KMD - I knew that chances were absolutely high that it would scatter that wagon to the winds after Ceph's power hammer and make most people think a KMD-SpyreX pairing was unlikely.

It ending up in a GIEFF lynch definitely wasn't expected though. I thoguht for sure it was going to be one of us (me).

And that wall of spew was spew and was my best friend.