Mafia 102: No-Frills Game Thread(Town wins!)

[crypto]

Olroight!

Confirm.

[crypto]

HAHA, YOU CONFIRMED THIRD, BITCH!

[crypto]

No, I use complete sentences with capitalization and punctuation, and I don't use unconventional symbols such as the slash.

[crypto]

17 min, 5 confirms, at this rate the game will start in about 45 min.

$5 says no.

[crypto]

Um, I think by no frills the mod just means the setup and rules are basic, similar to those in newbie games. The only difference here is that a jailkeeper replaces the doc.

*stabs CSL*

[crypto]

17

*cracks knuckles*

[crypto]

Vote: CSL.

FOS: EtherealCookie.

Indecisively voting for the mod is for

scum

the weak. So is being the second person to confirm without making some sort of attempt at humor.

Mask Man, why did you point out the jailkeeper's effect on the cop?

[crypto]

You shouldn't be; you've been around for some time. Stop panicking, scum.

[crypto]

Mask's confirmation post.

[crypto]

The above was a response to Sando.

[crypto]

Precisely, Mask.

Charter is obviously scum trying to even the odds.

[crypto]

Meanwhile,

unvote: EtherealCookie.

Vote: X_~.

Doesn't mean Cookie isn't scum too, though.

[crypto]

Oh, that's right, I was voting for CSL.

Unvote: CSL. Vote: X_~.

[crypto]

Er, not what I was shooting for. Expliquez?

[crypto]

This is a terrible idea. Why the hell would we not take the time to converse?

Oh, wait, maybe because the mafia doesn't want to.

[crypto]

oh wait, looks like people agree.

In this thread most people are mafia. (Very possible that the mod simply made a typo in the rules, and that there are really

thirteen

scum.)

spamming the thread

Meta me. It's my job. More addiction than job, actually. It's a work in progress.

Serious mode. I don't mean your idea is terrible. It's definitely not a bad idea, though I need to think about it more before I decide I like it or not. But that's not the point. The point is that everyone racing to a no-lynch without playing around at least for a little while is terrible. We should still play out the game like any other and poke around for suspects, for several reasons.

• The obvious: For the mafia, misinformation or (more pertinently here) lack of information is key, whereas for the town, information is key. Racing to no-lynch with zero conversation on day one, and then—assuming the jailkeeper guesses wrong—losing a man on night 1 is like injecting night 0 into the game. It's unnecessary given that we have the power to
  talk
  and it puts us a night behind the mafia in terms of population.
  
  
• The less obvious (but still obvious): Conversation will help the cop narrow down investigation options. Even if one of our resident baddies does not slip up logically, gut reads based on a full day 1 are better than gut reads based on the confirmation phase.
  
  
• Going from obvious to semi-obvious here: Not racing to no-lynch gives us the time to make sure Charter-scum or bandwagon-scum is seeing something, i.e., a loophole, that bandwagon-town or Charter-town missed. Granted, it looks fine by me, but that's the point. Anyway, that's a side note.
  
  
• Given the enormous percentage of townies, the mafia
  must
  make a kill every night in order to stay in the game. If we approach day 1 conventionally and throw around theories, suspicions, etc., then we'll have some background info when day 2 dawns and some sorry corpse rolls around. Even taking kill motivation WIFOM into consideration, some info about interaction is better than none.
  
  
• I think I had some other relatively minor reasons, but I forgot them. Regardless, this last one is
  crucial
  :

  You are a Cop.

  Every night you may choose(via PM) one person to investigate for alignment. Even if successful,

  you are not guaranteed to get accurate results

  . You win when all threats to the town are eliminated.

  Think about it. Sixteen players, thirteen of which are town. That's 81.25%. Unless my math's off (not my forte, honestly), mafia's quickest route to victory is
  five
  consecutive days with mis-lynches coupled with
  five
  consecutive nights with successful kills, at which point three goons endgame three townies. That's one tall feat, and even then it's worst case scenario for the town—it'd require a massive meltdown, months of utterly demented scum hunting. And it's even tougher when you factor in no-lynches, which would, what, double the number of days it'd take?
  
  Now, add in a cop and the mafia's job becomes all but impossible ("hard" being quite the understatement). Only 18.75% of the crew is scum, so it's less likely the cop will peg scum than in 25% scum setup, but even then the mere existence of a cop, especially when mafia doesn't even have a roleblocker, is devastating.
  
  You know where this is going. The cop is not sane.

So. This post surprised me and turned into a wall-o'-text. The last bullet hadn't struck me until halfway through. If I had to choose, I'd say the cop is

not

sane. Specifically, paranoid or naive (or random, but that's bastardly).

If the cop is non-sane and if we no-lynch without doing much talking until, say, day three or four, then suddenly we don't have much breathing room. We've got our heads in the sand and we've gone all the way from 13–3 to 10– or 9–3, which is standard mini normal fare.

And

we've got however many investigation results that we can't make head or tail of.

Discuss.

[crypto]

Since you mentioned it, I did a quick meta and the Cop Isn't Sane stock just went up to 75% in my book.

[crypto]

Mod error, if it even warrants that label, doesn't mean much. A meta of Scigatt's cop PMs shows that this one's different anyway—necessarily.

Cop could still be sane. I just think that, given the other aspects of the setup, he isn't. Role PM discrepancies in the meta are the icing.

[crypto]

Yikes, simulpost.

Mask, I more or less agree. One of the no-lynch zombies is probably scum.

Charter, was that vote serious or humorous/random?

---------------------

Super Accurate* Vote Count(as of post 75):

CSL - 2(mask man, hiphop)
crypto - 1(EtherealCookie)
mask man - 1(Sando)
X_~ - 1(crypto)
No Lynch - 3(SerialClergyman, CSL, Kaiveran)
hiphop - 1(charter)

Not Voting:le Chat, X_~, Staple, Team Aether, Kaiveran, bigmc109, Pomegranate, muh316

*Not guaranteed to be accurate.

[crypto]

First is the worst.

[crypto]

SerialClergyman, why is "ostensibly" good enough for you? Sounds like you didn't bother to make sure the cop plan was stable.

[crypto]

Ugh, post explosion.

Muh316, what's your experience with Mafia? Have you played anywhere other than mafiascum.net?

Same questions go for everyone else, except Charter, because we all know he's pro.

[crypto]

I gave you a slice of pizza for answering so promptly. But then I had to take it away before you could sink your teeth in, because you said nil about anything that occurred on page 3.

[crypto]

Thanks to everyone who answered about experience. Important to know who knows what (needless to say). Mask's autobiography was a particularly fascinating factoid.

Good to see EtherealCookie (obvious scum) getting more widespread publicity. Post 88 is vaguely icky, too. One down, two to gooo!

SerialClergyman, what exactly do you think of Ethereal?

---

I'd think if I were scum, I'd have at least something to say when someone suggests a no lynch. What is the difference between the sentence you wrote, and the sentence I wrote? Why should I say something, if I didn't care either way? If the town wanted it, the town would get it.

What? . . . No, the town gets what the most players want, and the most players want the action that is best supported with a clear logic. Our average scumbag would probably go with the flow for a little while to see how things unfold. Sort of like what you did. Some scum (usually ultra-confident pros) might take a proactive stance, but not most.

I saw several pros and cons both ways. One of the main ones is how would the cop know who to investigate. A good reason I didn't think of, until I read crypto's post (How long did it take you to write that?) is the town has an extra four people than a mini, which means the town has an extra two mislynches than a mini. Why waste them?

Why didn't you point out pros and cons before? Electing not to do so is anti-information. Plus, these two bits are both cons. Could you give a pro or two, for argument's sake?

If I gave my pros and cons, without letting everybody decide their way, I would basically destroy all the pros for it, by creating discussion. Why would I want to do that, if I didn't care which way the town went?

That isn't good enough, unfortunately. At this point in the game, keeping secrets "for the good of the town" is secondary to sharing information (unless of course you're outing role info).

Oh, and I've only played on this site. Two newbie games and two mini normals.

---

BMC, first off, I love you, and in case you didn't see the Mini 842 post-game comments, I don't really think you gave up.

Secondly, the cop may not be able to make head or tail of his sanity. If he's naive or paranoid, which I suspect he is, he's worthless, and wandering through three or four days only for the cop to claim all innocent or all guilty is not an exciting prospect. That said, I do think it may be a smart move to no-lynch unless we are really sure of someone's alignment, because we do have breathing room . . . and it is possible after all that the cop is sane (though I doubt it).

So I guess we're essentially in agreement. Discuss but don't lynch unless we're very confident that we're nailing scum.

---

So, yeah, Ethereal is scum. What else? . . . I'm puzzled by Muh's comment about how the least suspected townies are going to be night-killed. Isn't that how it always works? I can't tell if this is fishy or not. Strikes me as a weird thing to say, but not scummy.

Hiphop's explanations don't exactly scream town. Oh, that is an understatement on my part, FYI. Most of his reasoning is fine, but I really don't like that he chose not to post his thoughts earlier.

Obviously a lot of people still haven't posted in the thread after the confirmation stage. I saw X_~ on the list of online players last night, but he never even popped a random vote, which makes me itch.

Unvote: X_~.

Vote: SerialClergyman.

How 'bout dem rapid vote switches, Scigatt?

[crypto]

I guess I'll just come out and say it—it looked to me like Serial was hesitantly busing Ethereal (seeing as we know Ethereal is scum).

Mask, I'm confused; are you saying you think Charter is scum, or just that we should be careful not to be sheep? Who or what is the "bad cookie"?

Also note crypto's little comment on his voting speed. I'm not worried about it too much because he seems a little too good to fuck up like that.

I was joking. I tend to jump around a lot early on.

---

You're a bit too confident.

I was only half serious . . . I do think you're the scummiest, though. I'll put on my serious hat now, seeing as we're progressing out of RVS so quickly. On the other hand, this quote is fueling the fire.

How is that admitting to be scum? Assuming makes an ass out of u and me.

Being an ass has nothing to do with being scum.

In this game Ethereal posts broken rhetoric. Doesn't really seem to be invested in the game, or paying attention to it (see post 103). Of course, that says nothing of his alignment.

---

SerialClergyman, can you please do me a great big favor and answer any of the questions I've asked you?

[crypto]

Thanks for highlighting your EtherealCookie thing, Serial. I am blind.

Mask: See above.

What makes you an expert on what scum would do?

I'm Dr. House, obviously. Also, my name bears resemblance to cryptic messages. We can infer that I'm always right about everything. If you have anything critical to say about me, shut up, because you are without a doubt

wrong

.

You said go with the flow. If that was the case, I would of voted no lynch.

Or you would have lain low for a moment. But, yeah, this is a good point.

Did you not notice the awesome sig he gave me and you at the top of page 3 and 4 respectively?

Haha, he's just using the first post of each page to drop vote counts. It has nothing to do with rate of vote change.

Guys, time to cut the crap with the numbers. We can decide whether or not to lynch when we are ready to decide whether or not to lynch.

Speaking of which:

Scigatt, is there a set deadline? If so, when?

(crypto knows what I'm talkin about....)

But wait. You were scum in that game. Newbie lynch benefited you.

Oh, cool! That must mean you're town in this one. *mental note* Or were you really frustrated that game to, simply because it was a stupid move in general? Which means that your opinions in this game and in that one are consistent. Therefore, you are scum. Again.

[crypto]

Serial, it's a stretch to use my words against Ethereal. When I say I agree with someone, I don't necessarily mean every last line. Plus, people tend to quote more than they should.

[crypto]

It works both ways. Scum under pressure are also likely to make a mistake.

[crypto]

EtherealCookie
SerialClergyman
hiphop
charter

There are still a bunch of players we haven't heard from, though.

[crypto]

He came up with the plan. He's really the wild card in that list, though. And that list is not a scum team. It's just a list of players who intrigue me (read: rub me the wrong way).

Now, please share your list, sir.

[crypto]

Also, when I do vote counts(top of the page, if I've done it), can you say if I've gotten something wrong?

'Tis our civic duty.

mask man - this dude is jesus.

crypto - this dude is god

Please don't give away our secret.

[crypto]

If he's paranoid or naive, it was a waste of lynches and the night kills will have put us in a tight spot with no payoff. Even if he does get mixed results, we could lose another day.

[crypto]

It's also possible he gets a bunch of innocents and is sane and just sucks at investigating scum.

Please get over no lynching, it is not going to happen.

Cool it, bud. I'm on your side about this.

[crypto]

BMC, scum are lynched on day 1 all the time.

Look, we already know at least one of

EtherealCookie
hiphop
SerialClergyman

is scum.

It'll be a cinch.

[crypto]

Finger of MFing Suspicion: X_~.

X_~, please have the decency to fucking post the next time you come online. You seem to be doing just fine about it in your other ongoing games.

[crypto]

Hiphop, are you still satisfied with your vote on Ethereal?

Who are your other major suspects?

[crypto]

*falls asleep at keyboard*

---------------------

Super Accurate* Vote Count(as of post 150):

CSL - 1(mask man)
crypto - 1(EtherealCookie)
mask man - 1(Sando)
No Lynch - 1(CSL)
hiphop - 1(charter)
SerialClergyman - 1(crypto)
EtherealCookie - 2(SerialClergyman, hiphop)

Not Voting:le Chat, X_~, Staple, Team Aether, Kaiveran, bigmc109, Pomegranate, muh316

*Not guaranteed to be accurate.

[crypto]

Refusing to list your top suspects (two to four players) is a load of bull. If you're town, stop being loopy. If you're scum, please PM the mod requesting a role change.

[crypto]

That. Because I don't follow the logic. At first I thought you were referring to the three people who voted no lynch without qualm, but those people were SerialClergyman, CSL, and Kaiveran. So, uh, e

x

plain please?

Fixed.

The three I listed were my top suspects—but I don't think all three of them are scum. I'm saying one of them must be.

[crypto]

I am new to this board and it's very different that vBulletin or iPb so yeah my bad.

Not different enough for you not to notice there were seven pages. Not different enough for me to notice you logging on twice over the course of two or three days without posting anything.

Anyway, X_~ and Staple both come in looking like crap.

[crypto]

X_~, Staple, and le Chat, please list your top few suspects.

---

Hiphop may be overtaking Clergyman and Cookie as my top suspect. Or rather the most intriguing suspect. He's playing Captain Obvious a lot and . . . yeah, whatever. That said, I guess it's possible we've been making the mistake of reading his posts with our minds already made up that he's scum—tunnel vision / confirmation bias. I might have to reread to see if that's much of a possibility.

I still think Clergyman's

initial

attack on Cookie looked very much like hesitant distancing, as if Clergy saw how blatantly fishy Cookie looked and knew he should criticize it, but didn't want to commit to busing so early. Later on, Clergyman cracked down harder, which would go along with the theory that he realized his mistake—I think I actually mentioned it in one of my posts—and committed to distancing.

*shrug* Who cares.

cryyypto, you got some e

x

plaining too doooo.

Fixed.

crypto - If he's scum, he's gonna live for a loooooong time.

No, at some point I'll lose my patience and get mod-killed for flaming. Just watch me roll.

X_~ - I think we can chalk up his first few posts to just "being new".

Actually, I did a really quick meta (ongoing game so no detail, but I'm only talking about his posting style, so there'd be no detail anyway), and it looks like he does know what he's doing. Now, he still may be inexperienced, but he obviously isn't a total idiot.

Whatever. He's got my attention regardless.

mask man - I generally agree with him, but not much to say. That sig needs to be deleted, because it makes our eyes bleed.

Fixed, and I now agree 100%.

EtherealCookie - I think people are mistaking newbieness with scumminess here. Can you post some thoughts on other players, at least your top suspects?

Hmm. Cookie doesn't look like a newbie in the same way GreenDude did last game. Might try to explain why in another post, but trying to articulate it is giving me a headache.

[crypto]

I did not vote anyone

Who cares if you actually voted? You still made a petty and opportunistic attack when much bigger things are going on.

contrary to you jumping into the game with a vote.

OMGUS?

[crypto]

Oh yeah, and way back when Hiphop said that revealing the pros of the follow-the-cop plan would ruin it—that's a load of lynchable crap.

[crypto]

And for the quadruple post (BMC knows where it's at; the rest of you are in for a grisly surprise), I'm not currently worried about Team Aether. His eagerness during the confirmation stage looked legit and he hasn't posted at all on Mafia Scum since then.

[crypto]

the "I guess this all makes sense" + bandwagon is scumtell.

Prove it, please, i.e., link me two examples.

They both went 'vote X, no explanation needed'

That's called RVS. You know what RVS is.

[crypto]

EC, seems REALLY scummy. His defenses suck, you would think he would be kind of upset that he is being attacked by pretty much everyone. Yet, EC tries to prove people wrong.

What? Proving people wrong is the whole point of Mafia.

At least the cop would have an idea if the scans are accurate or not.

Not after one day. Not necessarily after two or three days, either.

Are you scum trying to get an easy lynch on Cookie?

---------------------

Super Accurate* Vote Count(as of post 175):

CSL - 1(mask man)
crypto - 1(EtherealCookie)
mask man - 1(Sando)
No Lynch - 1(CSL)
hiphop - 1(charter)
SerialClergyman - 1(crypto)
EtherealCookie - 2(SerialClergyman, hiphop)
Staple - 1(le Chat)
muh316 - 1(X_~)

Not Voting:Staple, Team Aether, Kaiveran, bigmc109, Pomegranate, muh316

*Not guaranteed to be accurate.

[crypto]

Link your past experiences.

[crypto]

Link your past experiences

[crypto]

You said, "'I guess this all makes sense' + bandwagon is scumtell." I want you to support it with two (or more) examples, preferably grounded in experience. Not complicated.

You can link wherever the hell you want.

Your reason for FOSing Cookie is awful. You expect him not to try to prove his attackers wrong?

Your FOS of me is also awful (blatant OMGUS).

[crypto]

You still haven't linked examples.

But you have made really crappy accusations against EC, Muh, and Hiphop. So that's a plus (at least from my point of view).

Heck, even your OMGUS FOS and vote came sooner than expected. Even your reason for your Muh vote was better than this.

If I was in EC's place I would at least have FoS'ed back or just called you guys stupid for concentration on me and not the real scum.

So they deserve an FOS for being wrong or stupid? Are all stupid people scum?

[crypto]

Also, X_~, what year were you born in?

[crypto]

I ask myself, why is crypto logged in as hidden?

In total there are

68

users online :: 22 Registered, 23 Hidden and 23 Guests

So, yeah, obviously all twenty-two hidden users are scum. Wait, no, that can't be right. BMC is also hidden. So he's scum. Same goes for all the other hidden accounts in this game.

Wait, no, that can't be right.

I've hidden my online status since the day I joined MS. This is my fifth game. I have yet to receive an anti-town role PM. Therefore . . .

Crypto tries to attack everyone so that no one attacks him.

Precisely.

The man simply will not stop til you answer him.

True story.

Actually, I'm holding off on the vote because he's new. Which is always a bewildering pain in the ass to factor in.

Waiting on the links.

[crypto]

X, why are you ignoring the request for linky links?

[crypto]

EC, none of my attacks have been random.

[crypto]

Okay. I seriously think that probably two (definitely at least one) of

you
Staple
SerialClergyman
X_~
Hiphop

are scum. I'm most suspicious of the last three on that list. I've jotted down most of my beefs with the five of you, but I can't be bothered to post those reasons right now unless you want to see them.

[crypto]

This is ridiculous. It shouldn't be a difficult task to dig up and post a couple of links.

Unvote.

Vote: X_~.

I'd like quick player-by-player analyses from EtherealCookie, SerialClergyman, Staple, and Hiphop.

[crypto]

Hey, BMC, wanna see something cool? Lookee here.

bigmc109-Keeps saying he will scumhunt. Makes two or so posts, and goes back to the theory of no lynching. Pays more attention to theory than scumhunting so far.

Indecisive, critical.

charter-Townie points for coming up with no discussion, helps cop not to get killed. Scum points because it hides the scum. There are more scum than the one cop. So it would help the scum more than the town.

Sitting on fence, critical.

crypto- Still thinking about him. Clearly the backbone to this town.

Sitting on fence. Setting up for night kill?

For the record, though, I find 99% accusations involving "setting up" for

anything

farfetched.[/color]

CSL-May need a replacement for him. He is going to be V/LA every weekday. Which means he will not post for five out of the seven days of the week. If he will only post on the weekend he can do better than one post.

Null read, completely legit.

I agree, by the way.[/color]

EtherealCookie-Clearly a newbie. Still want to see how he will post throughout the game.

Null read, sitting on fence, etc.

Kaiveran- So far has been following the town, and talking about theory.

Sitting on fence, vaguely accusatory.

le Chat-Opinions are ok. So far...

Slightly pro-town, but . . . what the heck? Blaming le Chat in advance for future actions?

mask man- Still thinking about this guy too.

Null read.

muh316- So far hasn't done any attacking or scumhunting.

Sitting on fence, critical.

Pomegranate- Only real post at the moment was the last one, and the only part of that comment that wasn't following the town, was the last point. Pomegranate, you need to explain why on your last point.

Accusatory, possibly a scum read, no real statement.

Sando-waiting for him to scumhunt.

Critical, null read.

SerialClergyman-TV on EC

Accusatory, no read.

Staple-extremely scummy even for a newbie. Hypocrite. Says he didn't say something because everything he wants to say has already been addressed, and yet he says his views anyways. Bad vibe on him so far.

unvote
vote:Staple

Strong scum read, critical, etc.

Team Aether-still waiting...

Null read, legit.

X_~-He thinks EC is scum, just because he doesn't attack the people who attack him. Your argument against crypto imo is invalid. Why shouldn't a townie discredit an argument that is scummy? You should try attacking everybody that appears suspicious. You would be surprised how informative it is. Also until you provide those links, it will only be an opinion and not an experience like you claim.

critical, either coaching or accusatory—not really a scum read, as far as I can tell.

1 scum read (Staple)
0 town reads
1 very slight town read, which seems to include a preemptive accusation (le Chat)
1 very slight scum read (Pomegranate)
12 null reads, 8 of which are critical/accusatory

In other news:

EtherealCookie, I'm asking that you make a list of all the (active) players, comment briefly on them, and say whether you think they're town or scum if you have reads on them. Same goes for SerialClergyman, still.

I don't like the X_~ bandwagon. And I'm not convinced he isn't just inexperienced town. Also, X, 'preciate the link.

Unvote: X_~.

SerialClergyman continues to avoid this thread. Check this out:

http://mafiascum.net/forum/search.php?mode=results
Type in his name in the author search box and look at the titles of the threads he's posted in, and the timestamps. Clearly not V/LA.

Hiphop makes me itch, but SerialClergyman is makin' me crazeh and he's still scummy for earlier posts.

Vote: SerialClergyman.

Delicious text wall.

[crypto]

I say we lynch him.

[crypto]

Hiphop:

1.SC- I have found that scum usually attack with a solid reason, while town take more risks.

Example based on personal experience, please.

[crypto]

Muh316, please post content.

Am I the only one whose gut is screaming "Pomegranate-scum"?

[crypto]

2. I'm not liking Cookie or x_~ right now. I think it's possibly newbiness, but I feel that they may try to pass of genuine scummyness as newbiness, so I'm not going to put much stock in that.

I have a hard time believing that those are the only two players you think are worth commenting on. Two easy choices, plus you play the newbie card for them.

3. I think we should play this game day out normally, whether or not no-lynch is a better idea- giving the scum extra information doesn't help us. When we're ready to end the day(, enough discussion or someone very scummy deserving to be lynched) we can decide if we think no-lynch is a better idea.

Stating what's already been covered.

4. I'm sure that there's at least one scum between the people who followed charter on the no-lynch bandwagon at the beginning of the day. It was extremely scummy.

I know I and some others said something similar, but dumping "extremely scummy" on three or four players is icky. Since then SerialClergyman has participated plenty, and Muh has made some posts as well.

Which leads me to my next point: zero real observations on anything that's occurred since page 3. That post I've quoted from is the only one with much substance at all. There's been a bucketload of stuff to comment on, too. Popping for two one-line posts—one of them a glib "Probably wait for 48 hours" and one of them a defense against SerialClergyman—without posting anything of consequence makes me go "Achoo!"

[crypto]

But you still enjoy large games?

[crypto]

Seriously? I love large games.

It was indeed Mafia 100. Speaking of which, empirical evidence disagrees with your concession that you lurk D1.

In Mafia 100 you posted 25 times on day 1 (the only day you were alive). Day 1 lasted 9 days (August 15–23). 25 posts / 9 days = 2.78 posts per day. Not lurking by any means. (You were town doc.)

Day 1 of this game has so far lasted 6 days (October 8–13). You've posted 9 times. 9 posts / 6 days = 1.5 posts per day.

Prior to this exchange, you'd posted 6 times over the course of 6 days—1 post per day.

Anyway, you posted plenty of content in Mafia 100 right from the start.

Unvote: SerialClergyman.

Vote: Pomegranate.

[crypto]

SC, Hiphop, EC, X_~, and Staple jumbled into a weak attack on EC and X_~ followed by active lurking?

Six pages ain't that much. It's Mafia. We read a lot. I don't buy that defense/excuse out of sheer principle.

[crypto]

attacks people

I'm sorry, but that's a massive load of crap.

Its too much for a 14 year old to handle.

Since when do fourteen-year-olds say this sort of stuff? Yikes. What is the world coming to?

[crypto]

EBWOP (post 255): No, EC, that was not an attack on Muh.

[crypto]

@ hiphop kthx dood I know the basics of scum hunting

[crypto]

hammer vote

Actually, you'd be surprised how often this is overlooked. A lot of players seem to assume it's too scummy to mean much.

[crypto]

Since I was not active at all the first 11 pages I do not think I can give a decent summary of all the players.

Um. No. Being an outside observer means you should be able to post a summary that's more level-headed than other players'. Please do so.

[crypto]

Pft, don't get offended Crypto.

I'm not offended. I'm annoyed, because that was an inaccurate statement.

[crypto]

I think the only people I've seriously attacked are Hiphop, X_~ (until he finally answered my simple question), SerialClergyman, and now Pomegranate. You and Staple fall under my list of suspects, but I've hardly attacked you, and my beef with Staple was limited to criticism of one or two of his posts.

[crypto]

Wat.

---------------------

Super Accurate* Vote Count(as of post 275):

CSL - 1(mask man)
No Lynch - 1(CSL)
hiphop - 1(charter)
Staple - 2(le Chat, hiphop)
crypto - 1(X_~)
X_~ - 2(EtherealCookie, Sando)
Pomegranate - 2(crypto, SerialClergyman)
bigmc109 - 1(Empking)

Not Voting:Staple, Kaiveran, bigmc109, Pomegranate, muh316

*Not guaranteed to be accurate.

[crypto]

BMC, why haven't you voted yet?

[crypto]

MAAAAAAASK MAAAAAAAN.

C'mon, man, I had such a town read on you.

[crypto]

*sigh*

I hadn't noticed this until Sando had quoted it:

Please ask me some questions so I can prove to you that I am in fact a townie

Unvote.

Vote: Staple.

Serial and/or Pom Pom still make me go , but seriously. This man needs to be lynched.

---

Also, is it just me, or are these rundowns on everyone completely useless to everyone else?

I was hoping one of my gut suspects would slip up about someone else. Didn't really see much, though.

---

I wasn't going to post this, but feel free to bang some brilliant scum tell out of it. I haven't even taken the time to look at it yet. (These things probably don't reveal anything more often than not.)

The solid lines are current votes and the dotted lines are people's major stated suspicions (strictly face value, not including any subtextual attacks, like how Staple threw some blatant OMGUS rhetoric at le Chat). There's no color code except that I tried to distinguish each player, because it makes zero sense when the lines are all one color.

And the font is next to unreadable, apparently. Whatever. You can make the names out.



*falls asleep*

[crypto]

So Staple still isn't posting content other than a defense that consists only of rhetoric and emotional appeal.

SC, my suspicions aren't focused because for the most part I'm hunting town, not scum. Eliminating players I'm confident are town narrows the pool of possible scum, and in general getting an accurate town read is easier than getting an accurate scum read. Some players are transparently town, but others (X_~, for example) need to be pressured before I can get a decent town read on them. As it stands, I still find you extremely scummy, and EC continues to do things that make me want to hang him, too, despite the fact that several players have (suspiciously) spoon-fed him the newbie card. Hiphop seems slightly less fishy than he did a few pages ago. Staple is my biggest concern, but in case you haven't noticed I barely attacked him in-thread up until now.

[crypto]

Muh's vote makes me itch. As do his statements that he isn't smart enough for Mafia. Doesn't strike me as particularly authentic.

Still, more hammers on Staple.

[crypto]

Whaaat? Mask expressing disgust.

[crypto]

EBWOP: Mask is expressing his disgust.

[crypto]

"mask man(I'm picky about both m's being lowercase, with a space or underscore.), are you saying that his post was possibly not good for your team?"

Mask Man is grammatically correct, though, regardless of how your actual user name is capitalized.

---------------------

Super Accurate* Vote Count(as of post 325):

RayFrost - 1(mask man)
Staple - 5(le Chat, hiphop, crypto, bigmc109, muh316)
crypto - 2(X_~, Empking)
X_~ - 2(EtherealCookie, Sando)
Pomegranate - 2(SerialClergyman, charter)

Not Voting:Staple, Kaiveran, Pomegranate, RayFrost

*Not guaranteed to be accurate.

[crypto]

You two could have been scum and the disgust could have been considered that your telling him that he is giving away his scumminess.

That's retarded. Disgust is usually used as a joke tool to express how scummy or stupid you think someone is being.

[crypto]

Despite my distaste for his use of the word 'retarded', he is right and your comment was idiotic.

Oh, please. I have an autistic cousin. Breathe.

[crypto]

I think a lot of players here are under twenty. (I'm seventeen.)

crypto: How do you make those charts? Awesome.

XMind. Super awesome little program (and free).

I don't like several votes on the wagon. I still really like Pom Pom as scum. But a Staple lynch works at least as well, so whatever.

[crypto]

Okay, let's dissect this post in case anyone important still isn't interested in lynching Staple.

Here's the post:

I guess you guys are correct in lynching me, since I know I've been playing scummy.

Says it's a good idea to lynch him. (Can be tagged with "appeal to emotion" and "self-destructive townie is a policy lynch.")

I will probably only cause more confusion throughout the game because of my scummy behavior these first few pages.

Self-critical. See above.

You guys also do not lose much by lynching since I have not been contributing at all.

Self-critical. See above.

Think the only way I could defend myself at this moment is to say that I will be more active from here on in,

1. I think this is the second or third time he said this. Talking the talk . . .
2. Weird thing to say. Seems to be clearing himself by establishing that activity is a town tell.(I could be reading into this.)
3. Talks about what he needs to do to clear himself, but doesn't ever do it. I.e., he throws a bone telling us he's town, but then goes back to lurking.

and I am a townie so it does not benefit the town to lynch me.

Contradicts first bunch of sentences. Clearly he's in two minds here. Cognitive difference, yadda, yadda. Haaang hiiim.

[crypto]

Not to the ten people who aren't voting for him.

[crypto]

EtherealCookie, can you explain what made you go from leaning scum on Staple to having a 50/50 read on him?

Staple - Lurks, attacks X_~ for lurking, comments on X_~ first post, which basically says he never noticed this post, but he will help find scum. The problem with that first post by X_~ was that he never commented on anything going on at the moment. However, Staple does the SAME EXACT THING, to the point of explaining why he hadn't commented previous (Everything had already been addressed, which is a garbage reason.) Very few posts. At the moment, leaning scum.

Anyhow, on Staple: I'm not convinced he's scum. 99% he's scum that's cracked? Hardly. More like 50/50. I'd rather see a bit more from him before I pass my judgement.

[crypto]

RayFrost posting in General Discussion but not in this thread is FTMFL.

[crypto]

Crypto, I feel you are a bit erratic and all over the place. You seem to be a bit paranoid. Everything I have said is true. How is it an appeal to emotion when I say exactly what is true. Is it a lie when I say that I am a good vote because I have not been contributing and I have come across as scummy?

That's funny. You didn't seem to think that until I started calling for your wagon.

Oh, wait a second, you didn't seem to think ANYTHING until people began to call for your wagon.

You have yet to contribute to the game aside from weak rhetoric and continued appeals to emotion.

In other news, I noticed something in the pattern of votes/attacks that I want to look into. Later tonight I'll make a big post about it, unless upon closer scrutiny it turns out to be less suspicious than I thought.

[crypto]

As for erratic and paranoid, I don't think those are the words you're looking for. Are you sure you're not just scum flinging vague vocabulary out there?

[crypto]

Hiphop:

1.SC- I have found that scum usually attack with a solid reason, while town take more risks.

Example based on personal experience, please.

Hiphop, I believe you haven't yet answered this. Could you please do so?

[crypto]

SerialClergyman, you seem to have lost interest in EC. What's your read on him?

[crypto]

crypto, I am of the school that looks to pick about 5 people as town on D1 and be prepared to lynch any of the rest, almost irregardless of scumminess. I've picked up on about 2 or 3 I wouldn't lynch, and everyone else is fair game. So if you're keen on a wagon on EC I'll join you, but for now I'm happy resting on Pom.

That's all great, but what is your read on EC?

[crypto]

So we can still post until the database moves. Which means nothing to me. And we don't know when that's going to happen, exactly.

Whatever. Tech beyond computer games and word processors was never my forte.

---

SC, that last post wasn't intended to be snide (well, a little). It seems like you've lost some interest in EC, at least as far as your posts go. I am curious about your line of thought on him.

I might actually post a (brief) list of suspects. A week ago the number of fishy players—in my mind, at least—added up to well over three. The situation hasn't improved, and, irritatingly, some players I had town reads on either are getting progressively scummier or aren't posting at all.

So yeah, while I've lost interest in posting my town reads for scum to eat alive at night, I'm getting restless. I might leave out my town reads (as well as some null reads so that it isn't excessively obvious who I think are town) and just post analyses of major suspects. And hopefully go from there.

[crypto]

Okay, Hiphop. No.

I'm also a little put off by Muh's play (I refer you to my last post: "some players I had town reads on [. . .] are getting progressively scummier"), but let's be fair to him. People, specifically EC and I, started knocking him on Tuesday for lurking. Since then he has been contributing more than a lot of players here. Again, the content of his posts isn't admirable, but he

is

contributing. So when Sando calls him out for going from lurking to wagoning, you can't fault him for saying he'd started posting because he'd taken flak for lurking.

You can't attack him because he stopped lurking. That's uncool and anti-information (and thereby anti-town) on your part because you're basically chastising Muh316 for sharing his thoughts.

You

can

attack the content of his posts, but you didn't do that.

[crypto]

If this was her first game I would understand, but this is her third game. Surely someone would have mentioned something about lurking and flaking to her in the other two.

That's a good point. Ima look at Muh's activities in those newbie games. I can't believe he coasted through both of them as hard as he is here.

Besides the content of her post was about activity.

The content of the post was self-defense. Yes, the subject was activity, but only because Sando used it against him.

And before I forget,

unvote. Vote: Kaiveran.

I don't care if you're sick. Take a pill and be a pal.

[crypto]

Take a pill and be a pal.

Oh, wow. Honest to God, that was not an attempt at emulating Dr. Seuss.

[crypto]

Sorry, Mod. I was voting for Staple.

[crypto]

No . . . Hiphop was talking about you.

[crypto]

So hiphop was talking about me. And you crypto were talking about me too. And SC was talking about EC

You are correct. SO CORRECT. Can you put that in algebraic terms for me?

[crypto]

No.

[crypto]

All right, list of suspects time. Most of these reads don't take possible town/scum motives as much as they probably should. Reading into motivation definitely isn't my forte (

yet

), plus it's day 1.

Sando

Looks town to me. Given my mangled other reads, I'll stay away from WIFOM and just accept the rare easy read when it rolls around.

hiphop

I originally had a scum read on him, but in retrospect a lot of what he's said is so logically sound and pro-town (at face value) that he's too risky a day 1 lynch for my taste. Upon skimming his posts in isolation, he looks

generally

town. But still, ignoring the no-lynch plan until Charter joke-voted for him was something scum would be prone to do, especially if they're caught off guard by the an apparently game-breaking strategy. On the other hand, some (trivial) remarks he makes

feel

town (e.g., "A good reason I didn't think of, until I read crypto's post," "Same question goes for you"). Then there are the gutsy statements like "Muh- your last post is a scum tell," which I admit could be scum building a recklessly proactive town appearance . . . so, yeah. Ugh. I guess I'll WIFOM myself into a null read.

le Chat

Probably town. His opening posts looked good. I hope he doesn't get replaced.

RayFrost

I took Team Aether's confirmation stage eagerness to be a newbie town tell. He vanished from the entire site, not just this game, so we can't hold lurking against him.

But.

Rayfrost gets an

FOS of astronomical proportions

for making

fifty posts

in various other threads (a mini game, a newbie game, and large game, plus some General Discussion and Mish Mash threads) since making his crybaby "I'm in school; I don't have the time" post on Friday.

X_~

I guess I'll put my money on inexperienced town.

muh316

Don't know what to make of him. If someone put a gun to my head, I'd have to say town. Meta says he's a lurkaholic.

Staple

Scum number one.

Empking

Probably town. (Mostly useless.)

Kaiveran

Irritating lack of activity. Jury's out.

EtherealCookie

Reads scummy. Hard to tell, though. Only made one post that actually went on the offensive (his list of suspects). So, yeah, null read.

mask man

Probably town. But iso-31 is what lends a shadow of doubt. Way too much analysis. He should have told Pomegranate to screw off. Still, I'd say town.

bigmc109

Town, by virtue of being town. Also, he was scum in my last game, so if he's scum in this one too there's been a serious tear in the fabric of the universe.

SerialClergyman

Not as strong a scum read as before. In fact, I'm leaning town. (Shoot me if he turns out scum.)

charter

Difficult to get any read on whatsoever. He certainly makes pro-town decisions. Some posts strike me as town, intuitively, but other times he says things that leave me scratching my head. I'm inclined to be more wary of him because he has such a massive amount of experience on the site.

Pomegranate

Reads scummy. Lurked until I whipped out my cute little pocket wrench and started beating her over the skull with the hard metal side. Iso-4 still makes me dry-heave every time I look at it. Zero scum hunting accomplished. Her statement that she lurks and/or doesn't scum-hunt effectively on day 1 doesn't quite match up to the meta example I posted. The excuse she made in iso-10 is really bad. I can't put enough emphasis on it.

Really, really bad.

Then she bandwagons on Staple, and gets away with it. She deserves much more attention than Muh316 for that. Her interrogation of Mask Man was petty, and then she was happy to drop it upon his second attempt at explanation.

FOS.

---

Right.

Today's Special Lynch (in order)

Staple
Pomegranate
RayFrost

Subject to Rapid Change (in no order)

EtherealCookie
hiphop
SerialClergyman

Get Your Hands Out of Your ****ing Pants and Post (in no order)

Kaiveran
RayFrost

[crypto]

Unvote: Kaiveran.

Vote: RayFrost.

[crypto]

I swear, I've settled on a (lame) pic for real this time.

Reaction post coming.

[crypto]

374, crypto, muh is suspicious because he added the "I'm not bandwagoning" clause after his vote.

Right. My point was that Hiphop didn't highlight that and instead concentrated on something that wasn't scummy.

---

BMC, you don't think it's possible that Staple might be newbie town, and that he's reluctant to replace out because it would look bad to replace out of one of his first games on the site?

That said, scum who've lost interest in a given game are probably more inclined to lurk rather than request a replacement, because lurking benefits scum (when they suck at everything else). It plugs the flow if information.

if Staple flips town, I'll definitely be voting muh tomorrow

1. Fixed. People who misspell

definitely

should be flogged. Publicly.

2. Less importantly, this quote

could

be a Freudian slip. I know I'm always worried that I'm going to take a shell through the forehead each night. And that seeps into my posts— "

If I don't kick the bucket tonight

, I'll definitely be voting Muh tomorrow." BMC didn't take that into account, but he may have just overlooked it. *shrug* Probably null.

---

You are lying with your quote. I said that I can understand why you guys would want to lynch me, not that you should. The 2 quotes you made; "go ahead lynch me", and "lynch me so I can prove I'm town" are both false, and untrue.

Did it

really

not occur to you that he was paraphrasing? I'm seriously questioning the authenticity of this misunderstanding.

On the other hand, upon rereading Staple's posts, BMC's paraphrasing was inaccurate. Staple didn't explicitly express disinterest in the game.

Never said that anyone must lynch me, in fact contrary to that I have been preaching the opposite.

No, you have not been preaching the opposite. Your play has been very passive, noncommittal, and lazily sarcastic, and you convey hardly any—if any at all—distaste for your own lynch:

I guess you guys are correct in lynching me, since I know I've been playing scummy. I will probably only cause more confusion throughout the game because of my scummy behavior these first few pages. You guys also do not lose much by lynching since I have not been contributing at all.

Think the only way I could defend myself at this moment is to say that I will be more active from here on in, and I am a townie so it does not benefit the town to lynch me.

Crypto, I feel you are a bit erratic and all over the place. You seem to be a bit paranoid. Everything I have said is true. How is it an appeal to emotion when I say exactly what is true.

Is it a lie when I say that I am a good vote because I have not been contributing and I have come across as scummy?

@pom: Because I'm a villa.

You don't know this for sure so voting for me is perfectly justifiable.

@Muh:

God I must be the worst scum ever.

All of Staple's attacks, except for his initial swipe at X_~, have been counteroffensive. He accused me of being "a bit erratic and all over the place . . . a bit paranoid." Then he threw up a semi-OMGUS vote against BMC at the bottom of the last page.

---

I don't really get Charter's beef with BMC. BMC laid out the possibilities and pointed out which was more likely. In fact, Staple comes out of this exchange looking even worse than before. But I'm unnerved by Pom's willingness to vote for him. Pom is extremely scummy, and busing on day 1 with this seemingly town-stacked setup would be suicide. So if RayFrost redeems himself I'll have to choose between Pom and Staple.

[crypto]

Why is it more likely this strategy (I don't think it is, seems pretty genuine) is coming from scum instead of town? Why can't he be town and not want to be lynched?

There are two sides to it, as far as I'm concerned:

1. Inexperienced
   scum are more likely than
   experienced
   scum to dig themselves into a hole and then make emotional appeals to get out. So it's logical to consider that as a major possibility for Staple as he is a relatively new player.
   
2. Inexperienced
   townies
   are more likely than inexperienced
   scum
   to make some attempt at scum hunting. Inexperienced scum are more prone to lurking, OMGUS, and appeals to emotion, all of which Staple has committed.

Look at Staple's other game. It's ongoing, which means we can't go into any detail and we don't know Staple's alignment, but his play there is immensely more proactive/pro-town than it is here. That's a huge warning sign if you ask me.

[crypto]

This just in: I hate to rain on the BMC versus Staple parade, but I'm totally up for lynching Pomegranate whenever you guys are ready (ideally after we deal with RayFrost).

Reasons:

• Her posts in general. They feel mad scummy.
  
• Lots of fluff. She made only one post of content (iso. 4) before I started badgering her.
  
• Bandwagon on Staple (iso. 15). Doubly suspicious given she's done little to no other scum hunting.
  
• Interrogation of Mask Man (iso. 18–20). The contradiction in MM's post was not even close to a scum tell. Pom blew it out of proportion, and then dropped it after MM posted his second explanation. Amazingly, his original post looks even scummier when read in light of his explanations, so I find it weird that Pom would let it go so quickly. The whole sequence strikes me as a very contrived attempt at scum hunting by Pomegranate, homing in on an easy, unimportant subject and then dropping it in the blink of an eye.
  
• Again referring to the bandwagon in iso. 15, second part of her post (the part following the second quote). Pom: "I just saw this(, catching up). Soooo scummy." (Referring to Staple's request—"Please ask me some questions so I can prove to you that I am in fact a townie"—which SerialClergyman attacked.) Pom didn't notice Staple's scummy move until after SC quoted it. I
  could
  be wrong here, but I'd be willing to bet that she didn't notice it because she isn't in the mindset of a scum-hunting townie. This is consistent with the rest of Pom's case against Staple. None of her points are her own; they're all piggybacking off other players' observations.
  
• Finally, meta. Pom said she lurks a lot on day 1, partly because she struggles with scum hunting early on and partly because there are so many players in a large game. But in her other completed large game, she was quite proactive. Skim her in isolation: Mafia 100.

Other stuff. BMC/Staple/Charter, I'm really happy for you; I'ma let you finish. But RayFrost is lurking like hell. I'd appreciate it if we could get a wagon him, and in the meantime you guys can continue to do your thing.

[crypto]

Charter, why is Kaiveran a good choice for a wagon?

[crypto]

Townies play scummy all the time, at least he admitted it and is trying to correct it. The chance of him being scum is really small. You're taking his actions and refusing to even consider him as town. Why is that? Because he screwed up and you're scum and you're running with it. Same thing applies to Pom.

I'm calling bullshit on this. Staple has done nothing to improve his play here. Your rhetoric is painful to read.

[crypto]

Charter, Staple is scummy because he said he would start taking the game seriously (in terms of scum hunting, I believe) and then never did. When he asked people to give him something to comment about—that's utter scum BS. Flagrant scum tell. He has experience. He doesn't need to ask. Townies read through the thread and post (hell, so do half-decent scum). Look at his other ongoing game. He clearly knows what he's doing to a degree where he doesn't need to ask to be spoon-fed information to comment on.

Oh, yeah, and add to the steaming heap of evidence that Staple is scum that he piggybacks on my Pomegranate attack. He hadn't said a word about Pom until then.

I don't get why BMC is taking so much heat. If my memory serves me correctly, he didn't say anything that marks him as scummy as Charter and SC have made him out to be. Setting up future bandwagons is not a scum tell. Townies have done it many times. I've done it

a lot

. The argument against BMC is a load of crap. SC looks worse than Charter because he's the one doing the following. He seems to be trying really hard to get a scum read from my gut.

Pomegranate or Staple should be lynched. Or RayFrost, if he continues to be a complete asshole.

I might've mentioned this before, but another thing about Pomegranate:

I think it's reasonable to notice that I was V/LA for about 6 pages of content. During read-throughs everything jumbles it self into a pile of posts.

That's bull. Six pages are not nearly enough information to confuse Pom so much that she can't even make some decent observations.

Especially

when she continued to make (glib) remarks about recent posts.

[crypto]

I was ready to vote bigmc since he strted lining up lynches. Then pom spoke up on his side and I had one of those happy crystalising moments.

And pom came out in favour of bigmc, so add that to the list.

So if Pom supports BMC, he's scum, and if Pom attacks BMC, he's scum?

I'm not claiming you voted muh after bigmc set up the second lynch. I'm claiming that you had (have) a direct choice between the two and you chose (and are still voting) the wrong one (in my eyes.)

This is a horrible argument. When Sando voted, BMC had hardly any suspicion on him. Muh was the clear choice.

SC also just broke the flimsy gut meta that gave me a town read on him. Yecch.

---

Red lines are attacks. Blue lines are defenses. Dotted lines are what I judge to be implicit or weak; solid lines are full blown.

[crypto]

And they're numbered chronologically.

[crypto]

No, lining up lynches is not a scum tell in any situation. Furthermore, I doubt BMC-scum would be so

stupid

bold as to say that. (Watch him turn out scum now that I've said that.)

I think Muh is a much better choice for a lynch than BMC. So you should FOS me as well.

You win as far as not following goes.

[crypto]

Fo sho.

I doubt BMC is scum. My beef is more with the case against him, especially in light of MUCH scummier player (Staple, Pom). Arbitrarily tagging Staple the village idiot is yecch.

I think you're giving Charter too much leeway. I don't have a scum read on him, but using him as support for your BMC case is also yecch.

You didn't explain the contradiction in the 466 quotes.

[crypto]

My mistake, then. I was under the impression you meant she was for his

lynch

(which clearly wasn't the case).

Why don't we lynch Pom, then?

---------------------

Super Accurate* Vote Count(as of post 475):

RayFrost - 2(mask man, crypto)
Staple - 4(le Chat, bigmc109, muh316, Pomegranate)
crypto - 1(X_~)
X_~ - 1(EtherealCookie)
muh316 - 1(Sando)
bigmc109 - 4(Staple, charter, Empking, SerialClergyman)
charter - 1(hiphop)

Not Voting:Kaiveran, RayFrost

*Not guaranteed to be accurate.

[crypto]

NO.

"Setting up lynches" is nothing more than a variation of announcing scum teams, players you think have opposing alignments, etc. If I were to post every example of townies "setting up lynches" on this site, the list would exceed maximum post length.

I've done it at least once in all my games. Here's an example from my most recent game. Took me about two minutes of iso. to find.

DRK, vote for GD; we'll lynch Reck tomorrow.

Even then, Staple and Pom both severely outweigh BMC in terms of scumminess. Kaiveran and RayFrost are catching up fast, though. Apparently Kaiveran goes through stages of recovery in which she can mod games but not play.

[crypto]

if

Staple flips town, I'll definetely be voting muh tomorrow.

Saying you will be voting for player

x

if player

y

—who both you and

x

have a scum read on—flips town is NOT a scum tell. It is NOT suspicious. It is NOT setting up a lynch, even.

In the example I gave, those two players were unrelated. But I'm sure I can find examples where two players related in the same game.

[crypto]

Yeah, this is suspicious and is a scumtell. It's hard to believe you've been doing this in every game and no one has set you straight.

Then it's

not

a scum tell. A scum tell means scum consistently do it and town consistently don't do it. That's not the case with this point of debate.

Anyway, I still don't think it's an anti-town thing to do.

[crypto]

Okay, so it's the scum tells are perfect versus scum tells aren't perfect argument. I nthat case, I still disagree with you and I still think townies do it as much as scum, without actually having numbers next to me.

It isn't pointless. You're lynching BMC when you could be lynching someone much scummier.

[crypto]

What Staple has done is far scummier. I don't get why SC (and, apparently, you) choose to arbitrarily label Staple the VI/target instead of BMC.

[crypto]

Huh? I could just as easily say Staple played scummy and, accordingly, gathered a bunch of votes from clear-thinking townies. That's why I think it's arbitrary.

Let's hang Pom/RayFrost/Staple.

[crypto]

The best way to explain it is that staple has done very little that would benefit him if he was scum, but lots of universally recognized 'scummy' behaviour. So he's a bit lurky, obviously low scumhunting etc etc. This is not helpful to the town, but hardly pushes a pro-scum agenda either.

Are you kidding? Lurking and promising to scum-hunt but then laying low, only to emerge for purposes of defense, are trademark (mediocre) scum moves. That's a situation the TOWN loves. It's an easy scum lynch.

As someone who was in BMC's last game with him, I can say that he was much more indecisive then than now.

[crypto]

His play has been transparently anti-town and, I would argue, very scummy.

Lurking absolutely pushes the scum agenda depending on how reactive townies are to it. In some games, the town homes in on lurkers; in others, the town rarely notices. Lurking allows for mafia to float around in the background while townies go make fools of themselves and get themselves lynched.

Staple is scummy. QED.

Fuck I'm a failure.

[crypto]

Because it's easy to get away with. In my experience, lurkers survive a couple days at least as often as they don't.

Really, though. Staple is scummy for his actions.

[crypto]

All right, guys. In case anyone's confused/wondering, last night I posted on here with an alternate account—for the second game in a row . I panicked and asked the Scigatt to delete it, then published the same post in what is now post subject 502 (with an expletive tacked on the end). Scigatt kindly deleted the original post as well as a pair of reactionary posts by other players.

[crypto]

I like Kai's post. I am wondering why she didn't vote for anyone. I think EC is overreacting. I want to write Charter off as town, but he

is

fishy for what I think is iffy scum-hunting logic.

Still up for a Pom/Staple/RF wagon.

[crypto]

man... stupid scummy townie idiot who i replaced, hes gonna get my ass lynched and im not the bloody mafia :/

So prove it by hunting scum.

[crypto]

I don't know. ADHD?

House was just begging to be chastised.

[crypto]

Unvote. Vote: mask man.

[crypto]

crypto, is that Brad Pitt from Se7en?

Perish, scum.

[crypto]

Unvote. Vote: SerialClergyman.

Yow, I've been wanting to do that for so long.

Unvote. Vote: RayFrost.

PLEASE HUMOR ME AND WAGON RAYFROST. HE HAS NOT POSTED IN FOREVER. HE HAS POSTED

130 TIMES

ON THE SITE SINCE HIS LAST POST HERE. THE LACK OF INTEREST IN A WAGON ON HIM IS DISCONCERTING AND SCUMMY AS HELL. FOR FUCK'S SAKE, WAGON RAYFROST.

[crypto]

Wasn't RayFrost prodded? I wonder where he is...

@Mod- was RayFrost prodded? Did he respond?

Sweet fucking shit, I HAVE BEEN CRYING FOR A PRESSURE WAGON ON RAYFROST FOR THE PAST FIFTY FUCKING PAGES. Thank you for confirming yourself as scum buddies with him.

SerialClergyman, vote for RayFrost. You can return to your BMC asshattery later.

[crypto]

No. BMC is town.

[crypto]

Nobody knows. Start posting substance.

[crypto]

Because he's done little/nothing scummy, and, less importantly, because he was scum in my last game.

[crypto]

WarWound, just vote for RayFrost. Or Pomegranate.

[crypto]

He's playing differently here than there (if my memory serves me well). He sat on the fence a lot in Mini 842; he isn't doing so nearly as much here.

Your case against him is embarrassingly pathetic compared to the case against Staple.

I have a gut town read on him. Regardless, he's been posting plenty and his thought processes are generally pro-town, so he's a poor choice for a day 1 lynch when we have gems like Pom, Staple, and Ray.

[crypto]

Well, have a read. In the game I linked earlier as scum he went straight for the staple-like player as well. He was one of the first to vote him and pushed the case on him for the entirety of D1. So if your reasons are meta, I'd say you're defintitely in the wrong camp.

Look, I have a lot more exposure to his play than you do. He pursued a crappy newbie without a second thought. Here he is pursuing a scummy, somewhat inexperienced player, not a newbie, and he has shown plenty of trepidation about mistaking newbie town for newbie scum, which is a natural evolution after deliberately lynching newbie town when he was scum last game.

Your/Charter's case on BMC pales in comparison to every other major options out there.

Pom was also anti-staple, and agreed with bigmc significantly. Why isn't that a pro-town thought process?

Are you kidding? You're saying scum never agree with townies in the game thread?

[crypto]

Yay, a real player!

Unvote. Vote: Pomegranate.

As far as I can tell, that's solely and completely not true in a number of ways. For reference, GreenDude is the name of the VI that bigmc pushed and tried to lynch on D1 in his only game as scum on site.

A newbie first and a VI second, yes. Referencing his push for GreenDude's lynch as support for your argument against him is a mistake. In Mini 842, BMC attacked GreenDude's VI play and assumed (or pretended to assume, given BMC's alignment) that not all of it could be due to sheer inexperience. But he attacked another player simultaneously, and he sat on the fence about just about everyone else. Retrospectively, it was crystal-clear opportunistic scum play: pressuring two easy targets—brushing aside the possibility that they're pro-town newbies—and refusing to tell your reads on other players.

Not the case in this game. He's opposed to newbie lynches, interested in setup theory (for better or worse), and generally more focused. He attacked Staple's scummy behavior, not Staple's newb-scum behavior.

All this isn't really a convincing argument that he's town, but my point is that his actions here aren't nearly as similar to his actions in that game as you insist.

Firstly - of the two, staple joined the site on Sep 2009, GreenDude joined on Jun 2009. So in terms of experience, I'd say they were atl east around equal, not 'crappy newbie' vs 'somewhat inexperienced non-newbie player'.

I could've sworn Staple had played on another site before coming to Mafia Scum, but I can't find it in his iso. Huh. I guess they're more or less equal i terms of experience, but Staple's posts are more mature than GreenDude's in general. He clearly grasps many gameplay concepts, even if he struggles with integration.

Secondly, what trepedation has been shown by him towards staple's lynch? I'll give you a few quotes to explain what I mean:

Seeing as I didn't think Staple was a newbie, I clearly was not referring to him as the newbie BMC showed trepidation about. BMC didn't like Hiphop's rapid attacks on EC because he thought EC-newb-town was being mistaken for EC-scum.

Also - what you're saying now is a direct contradiction of the last time you tried to clear bigmc based on meta. Can you explain this:

His play is more decisive in general. And his Staple case seems to hold more conviction than his GreenDude case did. Early on he was wary of mis-lynching a newbie because in his last game he himself, as scum, had urged a lynch on a newbie who flipped town. That instance of wariness doesn't make him indecisive.

[crypto]

My vote for RayFrost was pressure because he hadn't posted squat all game. You deserve leeway until you catch up on the game, and Pomegranate's scummier than your predecessor was anyway.

[crypto]

All right, I'm going to stop defending BMC after this post.

Rubbish, I've read the game - he just never waivered at all. He attacked Green as soon as green had a couple of votes and never left, often posting cases and saying things very similar to those quoted in my last message.

He wavered about

other

players, not about GreenDude. GreenDude was a go-to lynch. In this game, he's been slightly more decisive about his reads on the intermediate players (i.e., players who aren't hugely suspicious or pro-town).

This is pretty much rubbish and an unsatisfactory answer to my question. You said that he was both more indecisive then than now, and that he has shown plenty of trepadation in this game compared to last. They are essentially conflicting statements.

*sigh* I said that in this game "he has shown plenty of trepidation about mistaking newbie town for newbie scum." But he has been more decisive in a greater number of reads here than there.

After rereading his iso. in the other game I'll concede that his conviction about Staple here is no stronger than his conviction about GreenDude there. I couldn't even make such an argument in the first place, because his case on GreenDude was much more extensive due simply to the fact that that game was farther along in day 1 than this one currently is.

My point about newbie mis-lynches still stands, though.

More importantly than all this crap: In general, using a single game as meta evidence is an extremely dangerous maneuver. BMC has only completed two games—one town, one scum, and the town one was his first on the site. There isn't a strong enough meta base for you to use meta as your primary argument against him.

---

FYI, at this point I take a

hard

left turn onto Loony Lane.

I mentioned way back that BMC's evolution from newb-lynch-happy scum to newb-lynch-wary town was natural. This is a double-edged sword. On the one hand, it's certainly acceptable that he might've literally taught himself something about scum tactics through his own play. On the other hand, I find it . . . awkward, I guess, that his own actions as scum would lead him to be so strongly opposed to a bandwagon on an inexperienced player. Furthermore, EC is definitely more competent than GreenDude was (no offense intended), and BMC's statement that he was unwilling to vote "the newbie a few days into the game based on some stupid/contradictory stuff he said" was a knee-jerk reaction to just two votes (SC and Hiphop). And lastly, with hindsight I'm unnerved by BMC's parenthetical "crypto knows what I'm talkin about" comment. If that was intentional buddying, then by God I ate it right up.

I realize the above paragraph is a jumble of crap. It's hard to explain.

Looking through his iso., BMC did other iffy (but not truly scummy) things early on. Iso. 2 focuses on pure statistics, leading us to believe that lynches aren't worth it unless a lot of us are really sure they're scum. Statistics suck. Judging by statistics, the town fails every time. But seriously, the town rarely comes to such a clean consensus on day 1. (The implication here is that BMC-scum is confident that lack of consensus will lead to a no-lynch, which could be good for the mafia . . . I don't know.) Iso. 11 continues on that line of thought. Math sucks. Don't use math to justify strategy in Mafia.

Iso. 6 says he doesn't want to lynch a newbie (EC) just because that newbie made some argumentative blunders, or whatever. He opposes an EC wagon out of caution. But in iso. 7 he says his issue is actually with one of SC's own points. Suddenly the problem is SC's case, not EC's inexperience. Tsk, tsk.

Iso. 10 is KRAPLOGICK™. A naive/paranoid cop is 100% useless. Taking three days to figure that out is a massive waste of scum-hunting opportunity and a loss of up to three townies. All for nothing. A naive/paranoid cop won't "help us lynch scum." And an insane cop might not have the good fortune to investigate players of both alignments. Even if he does, working out sanity requires lynches

minimum

, at least one of which (probably more) should be a mis-lynch.

Even worse (still iso. 10) is this: "If we lynch, we will lose so many more townies than we have to. The odds of hitting scum on D1 or D2 are awful." Yecch. The significance of this statement only just struck me. In BMC's first game, scum got lynched day 1. In our game where he was scum, scum effectively got caught day 2. In the game he replaced out of

prior

to the end of day 1, scum got lynched on day 1. (I find it unlikely he didn't check up on the thread at some point out of curiosity.) Experience just about completely disagrees with his assertion here. Massive blood-red penalty flag here.

I still think Pomegranate is today's safe obvious scum lynch. But I'm bored out of my mind.

Unvote. Vote: bigmc109.

Humor me, BMC. (And Happy Birthday.)

---

By the way, the number of deliberately scummy lurkers/fluffers in this game is beginning to drive me insane.

[crypto]

You know what, screw the damn move, mass prod coming shortly.

Wicked bad ass.

[crypto]

I'm alive and well, thank you for the concern mod. I have posted with my 'moving sucks' st00f, thought we could relate there. I assume you just prodded anyone that hasn't spoken for 12 hours though.

Everyone got prodded. I did, at least. Anyway, the moving excuse is getting broken. I had a town read on you. You should post.

[crypto]

Pom's the best lynch insofar as obvious scum safety. I'd say BMC is for information, but I don't really think it yields much. If we were to lynch him and he did flip town, all eyes would turn on Charter, and to a lesser extent on you. Hmm. I guess a scum flip on Pom would lend credence to the BMC-scum theory, and vice versa. I'm still not comfortable with a BMC lynch. Some of his posts seem not to match his experience and his obvious capacity for pro-town logic. But a lot of the time he looks plain town. On the other hand, 99% of Pom's posts just scream, "Hang me!"

[crypto]

I'd like everyone to refer to the second part of post 574 and give opinions—strong, logical opinions,

not fluff

—on the points I laid out against Bigmc109. That includes you, shifty-eyed Empking of holier-than-thou posts.

Malpascp, the mod won't impose a deadline unless activity falls apart. It's up to us.

If a deadline is imposed, the required number of votes may be lowered.

[crypto]

Oh, and that includes you as well, SerialClergyman. And don't you dare spew "BMC wagon is yum and your points are yum and go, go Gadget Quick Lynch!"

[crypto]

EtherealCookie, you should always directly answer questions like this, for clarity's sake. While I understand your irritation, dumping excess suspicion on yourself is a bad idea, and avoiding direct answers to questions of any sort is fishy.

Both of you should respond to my survey (593), by the way.

[crypto]

Hmm. Okay. I've lost interest in BMC. This has been dragging on way too long and we're getting nowhere and I'm bored as fuck. Can you guys please tell me why you don't think Pom is scum?

Unvote: bigmc109. Vote: Pomegranate. (lol@beleagueredmod)

[crypto]

yet not voting me, despite continually saying that I'm the best lynch for the day

For information's sake. BMC was right. He's a little suspicious in places and I no longer have a town read on him, but you (Pom) are lynch gold.

Because, SC, I've already found scum in Pom (and probably Staple, who, I might add, is still playing in another game), and I'm back to having a null read on BMC. I suspected him because of his math posts, which were pretty shabby evidence against him anyway. No one else agreed about that, and his attack on Staple is totally legit.

Pomegranate is so blatantly scummy that I'm more than content with leaving my vote on her all day.

I wonder why she left half the player base out of her list of suspects.

[crypto]

Actually, I more or less dumped interest in EC after RVS. Once I picked up on Pom's read it's stayed like that all game. Same essentially goes for Staple. Not only that, but basing a player's alignment on someone else's view of him/her is a horrible idea.

[crypto]

I am not going to comment on the bmc case like you asked, because you don't believe it yourself.

That's a shabby excuse. At least comment on BMC's play overall.

[crypto]

Hmm. Maybe I didn't word it properly. I lost any remotely strong scum read on EC by the end of RVS.

[crypto]

Crypto doesn't post for an entire day, and then we get three I am busy posts. Strange.

I'm sorry, it's hard to maintain interest when half the game is following an idiotic wagon and the remaining half is lurking.

---------------------

Super Accurate* Vote Count(as of post 650):

malpascp - 1(mask man)
WarWound - 2(Pyromaniac, muh316)
crypto - 1(Ojanen)
muh316 - 2(Sando, Pomegranate)
bigmc109 - 5(WarWound, charter, Empking, SerialClergyman, malpascp)
charter - 1(hiphop)
Pomegranate - 2(Kaiveran, crypto)
Empking - 1(EtherealCookie)

Not Voting:bigmc109

It takes 9 to lynch, 6 at deadline.

*Not guaranteed to be accurate.

[crypto]

Yes. Pomegranate is obv. scum.

[crypto]

Hiphop knows where it's at.

Even if I'm a little suspicious of SC, the crypto factor has me thinking it's just OMGUS.

Huh?

Frankly, I'm not being very subtle with my Pom wagon-pushing. On the other hand, I was the one who started it.

Also, if anything a Pom scum flip says BMC is scum, because she's been siding with him so much. But it's probably too WIFOM-heavy to be reliable.

[crypto]

Pom-Pom may as well have just claimed scum. She takes sides with BMC multiple times and I call her out on it, and then she votes for BMC despite admitting she thinks Muh is scummier. Plus she doesn't add to the case on BMC at all whatsoever. If she flips scum, she's muddying the waters with regard to being buddies with BMC or Muh.

Preview update: Okay, so her reason is that SC's case is convincing. So still no input of her own. Moreover, SC's case was not convincing.

Coincidentally, before her vote she was tied with BMC for the most votes. Her vote put BMC ahead by one. Hmm. Wonder what the motive for that gem is . . .

---

Doing my my own work, I see that crypto and Kaiveran fall in to this category.

I'm pretty sure my view of BMC has gone from rock-solid town to potential scum to neutral. He's just a damn stupid choice for a lynch when we have Pomegranate or Staple/WarWound, or even Muh for that matter.

---

Hiphop, Staple is still hugely suspicious, from my point of view at least. So it'd make sense that WarWound-newb-scum comes in, asks if people still want to get him lynched, then vanishes as conversation continues to focus on BMC, Pom, and Muh. That's assuming his posts in the other game are pro-town (by his own standards at least) and not purely defenses or active lurking or whatever.

[crypto]

Mod:

No, I'm mathematically challenged.

[crypto]

So scrap that point I made, but the concept that she was pushing the stuck-in-a-rut BMC wagon when hers was growing is still there.

[crypto]

Blindly voting is profoundly scummy.

[crypto]

Checking in; my read's at about page 14 or so. I won't be able to finish it this weekend, but I should be able to before deadline.

Just skip every other post by me. That should speed it right along without missing much.

[crypto]

Pyromaniac's BMC vote reminded me . . . after the hundredth reconsideration, I've warmed up a little to the theory that BMC was setting up for two straight mis-lynches on Staple and Muh. But I still think the whole argument is a shoddy reason for knocking him off day 1.

I don't get why Staple isn't scummy. I don't care if he's new to the game. Asking people to give him things to comment on was insane. He didn't/doesn't do that in his other game.

WW looks bad, but irrational play seems to be standard for him.

Anyway, keep the Pom wag going. I don't think lynching BMC or anyone else for information is worth it considering her scumminess blows everyone else out of the water. I'd take the easy scum lynch any day. Even so, her interactions with BMC and her attacks early on are intriguing. If she flips scum, a couple of players are 80% clear in my eyes.

[crypto]

@crypto: What do you think of charter alignment-wise, after being the one that had to yell out 'bigmc isn't being scummy, you are using shit-logic and staple is scum.'(please call me out if I misrep'd you.), I'm surprised you don't have a vote a charter, and instead are more eager to lynch pom.

I don't think I answered this. I can't get a read on Charter. I find the diversion from Staple very fishy, but again I no longer have much of a town read on BMC.

[crypto]

Correct.

[crypto]

Can someone tell me why RayFrost replaced out of this game and then continued to post boatloads in his other games?

[crypto]

NINJA AVATAR CHANGE. *falls asleep in chair*

[crypto]

NEVER!

Or you could read the thread title.

[crypto]

This makes me feel icky.

Pom, if you had to kill two scum right now, which two players would you kill?

[crypto]

Italics on "lie" make me feel slightly less icky. *raises glass nervously* Here's to the hope that she's WIFOMing us.

[crypto]

We should totally mass-claim.

[crypto]

See, I really hate putting smilies in because then I'm worried it'll look stupidly obvious, but then when I leave them out, everyone's reaction is like

[crypto]

Wrong about what, Mask? Are you talking about her AtE or her response to my shoddy humor?

[crypto]

WarWound, who do you think is more likely to be scum than Pomegranate? Please don't just say you don't know. Even if you really aren't sure, tell us who you think is the most suspicious-looking player. The more opinions, the better.

[crypto]

WarWound!

Maybe you don't understand. The town

needs

input from every player. Not all of us deeply suspect you. Argue with Charter if you want to, but please answer my question.

Charter, if you meta WarWound you'll see that he is completely unused to the style of play on this website . . . Just an FYI.

[crypto]

Still curious to hear his answer to my question.

Answer my question, WarWoooooouuuund.

[crypto]

Ojanen, that quote which says "bigmc wrote" should read "Pom wrote". Way to completely misquote me.

Ojanen's intention looks obvious to me, and his misquote does not benefit his argument. *passes BMC an FoS*

[crypto]

Still curious to hear his answer to my question.

Answer my question, WarWoooooouuuund.

Im not sure yetttt

I told you I don't care if you're sure. Just tell us your top suspects, even if you aren't all that certain about them.

[crypto]

WarWound, how will we ever get anything done if whenever we are about to lynch someone we decide to stop because they might be townies?

[crypto]

WHAT THE

[crypto]

In case I wind up dying tonight,

FoS: WarWound.

It's one thing to abuse village idiot, but . . . yeah, see post 779.

[crypto]

Mm, shit, Scigatt is online. Also, shit, I just posted with my alt AGAIN.

Ah, well. I had an ethical obligation to out Symbol as an alt to Crypto in a newbie game, so it's pointless. Don't cut out the above unless you really want to for your own purposes, Mod. Sorry for the hassle/fail.

[crypto]

Actually, I take it back. I didn't see WarWound ask if we wanted him to hammer. Still suspicious, but not as much as I thought.

[crypto]

Actually, I take it back. I didn't see WarWound ask if we wanted him to hammer. Still suspicious, but not as much as I thought.

but i did ask if you guys wanted me to hammer

I know, you dink. I mean that I missed it my first time reading through.

Pom, you scum?

[crypto]

I feel dirty if that was not the hammer.

[crypto]

ROFL. My alt's only got two other games, one unfinished, and I already posted it on my wiki page after I choked out the confession in another game.

[crypto]

Finally.

Fuck. Castigate me, severely. That's three times in a row I've urged the wrong lynch on day 1. I'm on the verge of resorting to random.org and some butchering of Bayes' theorem to pick out my scum. Next time I build a really nuanced case for a suspect, someone please let me know so I make sure not to vote for them.

[crypto]

WarWound, I didn't force you to do anything. I did advocate lynching Pomegranate since it was clear that if left to your own devices you'd do nothing more than beat around the mental bush till your skull started to crack open.

Anyway, why does the fact that I pursued what turned out to be a mis-lynch make me scummy?

Start writing with intelligence.

Good Lord, I support the policy lynch.

Vote: WarWound.

[crypto]

If you were kidding then post something useful for once. Who do you think is/are scum?

[crypto]

Why do you ask about the SK?

[crypto]

Did you know there's a jailkeeper in the setup?

[crypto]

Which one?

[crypto]

yesno
esn
s



This isn't the inquisition. Should be a fairly easy question to answer.

[crypto]

Okay. Now feel free to post content while I read SC in iso.

[crypto]

More votes on WarWound.

[crypto]

MORE VOTES ON WARWOUND FOR %$#@'S SAKE!

[crypto]

Okay, I don't know why I'm doing because I'm going to get yelled at for a case and I'm not in the mood to post one, but

FOS WarWound, Charter, Malpascp

as a scum team.

Not confident that it's 100% accurate because so many other players are scummy, but I'm pretty sure one of those three is scum, minimum.

---------------------

Super Accurate* Vote Count(as of post 825):

WarWound - 3(Empking, Pyromaniac, crypto)
bigmc109 - 1(charter)

Not Voting:Trumpet of Doom, WarWound, Ojanen, Sando, Kaiveran, hiphop, bigmc109, mask man, malpascp, muh316

It takes 8 to lynch, 6 at deadline.

*Not guaranteed to be accurate.

[crypto]

That's grammatically correct, actually.

Look, we all know you're scum. Can you just self-vote and speed your passage?

[crypto]

No, WW, it is not too harsh. You are making no effort to improve and help the town, or pretend to help the town if you are scum.

I just reread Staple's iso. to sway BMC's opinion and I actually find him vastly less scummy than I used to. Weird. Maybe I'm missing something.

[crypto]

You posted no content all of yesterday.

[crypto]

Then start posting content.

[crypto]

I fucking give up. Stop trolling. You need a life.

[crypto]

"Looking very scummy" is hurting the town as far as I can tell.

I thought I'd unvoted after I reread Staple's iso., but judging by your post I apparently didn't.

Unvote: WarWound.

Honestly, though, I don't think a WW lynch is bad for the town. Hopefully we'll find something better by the end of the day, but he's scummy regardless of his meta and he's hugely distracting.

Crypto goes from lamenting how often he's mislynched on D1 and keeps screwing up to wanting a policy lynch on WW, in 1 post.

I don't think there's nothing wrong with using the threat of a policy lynch to pressure a player.

Crypto asking for this “Can you guys please tell me why you don't think Pom is scum?” strikes me as scummy, when you vote for people it should be because you find them scummy, not because others haven’t come up with a reason not to. It’s also basically asking people to do something scummy, defending another player.

My point was that I found Pomegranate extremely scummy, but my case was ignored by a number of players. They were unresponsive to my actual case on Pomegranate despite my repeated cries for her neck in a noose; they didn't even argue that the case was a bad one. Either they weren't paying attention or they really didn't find Pomegranate scummy, and obviously I wanted to know why so that I could convince them otherwise.

(withdraws Charter and Malpascp FOSes)