Mini 880 - Mini Quick and Dirty - Game Over

[VP Baltar]

/conrimf

[VP Baltar]

Vote: ODDin

I don't know you and you are clearly a spy. DIESCUMDIE.

Hey, that's a nice rhyme.

and that too.

fin

[VP Baltar]

Oh for crying out loud with the rules.

Vote: ODDin

[VP Baltar]

Raskol, what do you hope to do with these game links exactly? Do you feel you can get an effective meta of every player in the game? Who have you already played with from this list?

[VP Baltar]

Amished, what grounds do you have to not post some games for raskol just because you don't like meta? I don't understand that logic.

[VP Baltar]

I'm waiting for VP to vote me and I'll omgus the hell out of him

I think I'll give you a break for now.

In the meantime, I agree that amished's switch seems quite odd and edgy. Scum found, game won. Where's my medal?

Unvote, Vote:Amished

[VP Baltar]

-__-

[VP Baltar]

@Amished-but if you just wanted to bandwagon someone, were you not already doing that with your Sando vote?

@PZ-Because you seem intent on staying in RVS for as long as possible and I have you on auto ignore at the moment. Honestly, I couldn't tell you off the top of my head much about you at this point. If you're ready to get serious, then I'll start paying attention to you.

Do you feel you had any serious votes in there I missed?

[VP Baltar]

[1]@PZ-Because you seem intent on staying in RVS for as long as possible and [2]I have you on auto ignore at the moment. Honestly, I couldn't tell you off the top of my head much about you at this point. [3]If you're ready to get serious, then I'll start paying attention to you.

1. RVS is the best part of the game.
2. ORLY?
3. Would you classify my SC vote as serious or non-serious? Also, would you classify my questions to you as serious or non-serious?

1. No
2. Yes
3. No

[VP Baltar]

What is your case on SC?

[VP Baltar]

Also, what is the scummy motivation to ignore you if you've said nothing of significance?

Unless you think I'm your scum buddy, I don't get it.

[VP Baltar]

Unless it's obviously joke-y, everyone thinks what they have to say is relevant. At this point it's pretty clear to me that he {Zito} believes that he has scum in his sights.

Really? Cause it looks to me like he has been jacking around in the RVS this whole time. I'm anxiously awaiting his case on SC though.

Look at LOST mafia. I'm pretty sure you ignored CKD when he was right about two different people being townie (regardless that he thought you were scum); and I ignored Santos because I knew he was the cop and I was scum. Ignoring only hurt the town in that game (ignoring Santos helped me a bit).

Ckd was wrong more often in that game than he was right by a long shot. I was ignoring him because I was pretty certain he was town and his attacks on me made no sense. In that case, ignoring him was actually very helpful to the town because it would have been a pointless town on town argument to be having. So, you're incorrect about that (and it's not really an analogue here anyhow).

I don't know what you mean by you ignored Santos.

Do you really believe that ignoring people will help you?

It's not hurting me, that's for sure. If you think Zito has brought up some especially relevant point that I missed, feel free to point it out.

[VP Baltar]

Ckd wanted to lynch xRx, myself and Emptyger in the latter part of that game when I was ignoring him. He also was gung-ho about the Jebus (busdriver) lynch. He was definitely not correct.

It is indeed helping me because if he is only putting noise out there, it's not worth paying attention to. Look at his posts thus far in the game. I stand by that there is nothing of substance there and spending my time reading fluff isn't going to help me find scum in any way.

I never said I would ignore him for the entirity of the game, just until he gets out of the RVS.

Apart from that, I don't understand the point that either of you is trying to make. What benefit does the scum gain from ignoring a player's RVS-extending ramblings?

[VP Baltar]

Wow, a whole 1.5 days. Anyhow, I am behind in this game and plan to catch in my free time today.

[VP Baltar]

Also, saying that they haven't posted anything beneficial sets you up (as scum) later on to give you a precedent to dismiss some arguments that the person might have against you or one of your real scum buddies in the future, especially if they caught you with something rather strong in principle but they don't express it all that well.

There's scum motivation to do anything in the game.

Yeah, sure anything CAN be scummy, but lets look at the facts and reach the most logical conclusion. The fact is that PZ has not posted anything useful. Now, you are of course welcome to fill in the blanks for him, but that's not how I play. If a player cannot explain him or herself in the thread, then don't expect me to make all kinds of assumptions to do it for them. My point stands until I see something I deem to be of substance.

I don't pay attention to jokes either. I didn't even remember my joke to AGar about Berserking... If it's not related to the game at hand, I don't really focus on it.

What! You were just trying to rake me over the coals for ignoring PZ's drival thus far and now you are saying that you ignore joking stuff? Cognative dissonance alert.

If he ever wants, I think he can very well put his personal ending of the RVS at any point there. The way he worded it, even the "SRS BSNS" can be referred to as a joke later on

Yep, exactly.

AGar's instant OMGUS on ekiM in post 132 is quite interesting. AGar, how confident in this vote?

I count 4 or 5 players all uselessly saying something like 'I await PZ's case with fervour', which might indicate a lack of desire to scumhunt rather than just a lack of desire to commit too early.

Yer. I don't like how so many people chimed in after I said that and went "Oh, yeah. me too, me too!" Makes me feel more inclined to believe that PZ is town and there is probably at least one scum in that bunch waiting to prod his wagon on if it arose.

@Raskol v SC D1 theory discussion--that's enough folks. Raskol, that's how he plays. He's not going to change it. 'nuff said.

Edit: Actually, since you continued to harp on the issue Raskol, do you think this a scumtell from SC?

Is it Amished whinging at me to vote? I'll vote when I want to pressure someone or lynch them.

Actually, didn't he ask you your suspicions and you said look at your vote, which was actually non-existant?

There are only 2 people who I meta, Serial and Ojanen, Serial because I've known him a long long time, Ojanen because I've played 2 games with her, both with her as scum, 1 with me as her hydra partner as scum, so I trust my judgement there a lot more.

How can you have a meta on Oj if you've never played with her as town? That doesn't make sense, especially from someone who doesn't like meta apparently. You'd think given your distaste for it, you'd at least have a complete meta.

I've commented on Meta and provided it on the one person at the moment that I feel I can. I've commented on Amished refusing to even discuss joke-posts,

But you never replied to what your thoughts on me are. I said I was flat out ignoring PZ until he contributed something of substance and you didn't bat an eyelash. What's the difference between myself and Amished in that regard?

Just one problem, Sando---no one ever asked you for a stupid rundown post. You were asked who was scummy to you and why.

^this.

1: Fair enough if I got that wrong, I got that wrong, if noone asked me for a complete rundown of everyone, fine. I was in a rush and late to the game, I may have misread it as asking me for that sort of post. However, there's not a lot of difference between asking just who is scummy, and a complete run-down post. Clearly, anyone I don't include as scummy can be assumed as being seen as townie by me, and I'm providing even less info. So there's not exactly a lot of difference.

lol. what?

3: I haven't refused to give my opinions, I've refused to give my opinions in the format he wants. He asked me a very general question, I attacked him over it, not sure what the problem from you is.

Actually, you fabricated the format he wanted and then called him scummy for it.

---

Sorry for being absent for awhile and I'll try to keep my activity levels up. Also, Sando is obvscum.

Unvote, Vote: Sando

[VP Baltar]

I'm done with being on tour

Rockstar by trade?

What's the difference between saying "The people I find scummy are XYZ", and "The people I find scummy are XYZ and the people I find town are ABC"? Not a lot really.

A hell of a lot, really. Pointing out two or three people you think are scum =/= saying the rest of the people are town reads. I don't even know how you are jumping to such a conclusion. Nor do I think anyone would generally consider saying "The people I find scummy are XYZ" to be anti-town, and especially not scummy as you are trying to make it out to be.

I hadn't realised I'd been specifically asked for them, have I?

Yeah, you were actually, by Amished if my memory serves me. And regardless of that, I'm asking you now.

Yep, I was saying that since I'm not voting, you can take that as an indication that as of yet, I don't have any strong opinions. I can't believe that it's that hard for you guys to figure that out...

If only we were all as bright of a star as you. So your stance is you have no suspicions and saying "I find XYZ scummy" is anti-town. You need lynching in the worst way.

My posts will focus on a single player or only 1 or 2, I won't make big 'these 6 players are likely scum'.

More exaggeration. No one asked you to give a list of six players who are scummy.

Do you guys really think that I'm still not providing opinions on players or generating discussion? Seriously?

Yes, very much so actually. I see you doing a lot of pouting about being questioned over not givig suspicions and then you continue to NOT ACTUALLY GIVE SUSPICIONS. What conclusion do you expect people to reach? Your Amished case is very flat and reads like something you slapped together just to get something out there. Not only that, but it is built on a false accusation and rather than admit that, you are arguing that you can infer the same thing from his statement and he is therefore still scummy. It definitely doesn't read to me like someone who is actively searching for scum. Give me a break.

[VP Baltar]

I wish I could say I had no failings in my confidence, but he's gone rather inactive, so I can't get a better read of him. However, I feel it fulfills it's purpose right now.

And what is that purpose?

Under VP's argument, I couldn't really assume a meta for either of them as scum. However, I know of several games where PZ was scum, and I could easily read them over, no? That seems to be something you somewhat overlooked, VP.

Reading over or having read over games were not in his original statement. I'm not going to assume he has simply because that is something he COULD do. Incomplete meta is incomplete meta and could simply be scum excusing their partner's behavior without explanation.

Ok, maybe my post about activity came off as harsher than intended. I was somewhat frustrated that we have a lot of good active players and yet only about 1/3 of people were posting. I expected that given 48 hours was prod-able, there would be more activity.

Well, I think it is a bit overboard to start calling people out when they haven't even been prodded yet. Additionally, the pace of this game is very quick and a lot of it was simply a theory debate, which ultimately wasn't very interesting and didn't help find scum. You can't expect people to be jumping at the chance to read that. Anyhow, I didn't take it personally, I just wanted to point out that it hadn't actually been that long since people had posted.

Maybe I just know Serial well enough to have known he was basically joking and that he was only asking fairly gently, but this seems like an unnecessarily defensive reaction right after he posted it.

See above.

I'm confused. You think that me saying "I find XYZ scummy" when I actually don't would be pro-town?

I think if after 8 pages you have no idea, then that is pretty scummy. That is my overall point. Not only that, but you are attacking Amished for asking you for reads, which is ridiculously stupid. That is the only stance I have seen you really take and it's founded on a false arguement that you are clinging to.

I'm still waiting for you to reply as to why you ignored my ignore post and attacked Amished over it.

[VP Baltar]

I can't believe how hung up you kids are about the intro SC thing.

Well, see, keep in mind that you attacked me for "ignoring" you and all you were bringing to the game. Turns out, I was correct in the first place that your "SRS BSNS" wasn't very serious.

Here's a refresher:

I assure you the SerialClergyman wagon is SRS BSNS. As are my questions to you {VP}. Putting someone on /ignore is scummy BTW. I'd swap my vote but I don't want to hurt a fledgling wagon.

So, what was I really missing out when I said I would ignore you until you contributed actual content?

Rhetorical answer: Nothing.

And yet you said you'd be happy to switch your vote to me if you weren't already on the very serious Serial wagon. Now you are trying to downplay it as just a bandwagon vote.

Unvote, Vote: Papa Zito

[VP Baltar]

Out of curiosity, what's the PZscum thought process to that bit of play? What was he trying to achieve?

It's not so much that he would have had scum motivation to be voting you in the first place, it is that he attacked me for ignoring him when I called him out on his fluff posts. He alleged that he was being serious and I was scummy because I was ignoring him. I then asked him for his case on you, since he claimed it was serious. He is now saying he didn't have one.

So, how do you think that makes him look after he tried to sling mud at me for (validly) attacking him? He was actively extending the RVS and I called his bluff, after which he tried to slink away and say it was all a joke because he never actually had a case in the first place.

Catching up with the rest once my computer restarts.

[VP Baltar]

VP, do you think that Papa Zito's SRS BSNS comment was intended to imply that he had a case?

If so, why?

Considering I specifically said he was pushing crap and that was his response, yes I am going to read it as him saying he had some actual reason. Keep in mind that he also said he couldn't vote for me (who he found scummy) because he already had his vote on the serious serial wagon.

Funny spellings don't get you a free pass for backtracking in my book.

[VP Baltar]

SC and AGar, what are your thoughts on Sando please.

[VP Baltar]

In short, look past the words (and his words will generally do their best to catch your eye ) and look at the position and the scumhunting, I think that's the key to finding sando's alignment.

My argument isn't with his tone (though he is overreacting most of the time it seems). My argument is the fact that COMPLETELY FABRICATED an argument against Amished and then when this was pointed out he would not simply admit he was wrong, but rather concocted a hairbrain theory that saying 'I find XXX scummy' is the equivalent of giving a listing of every player.

Additionally, he attacked Amished for ignoring posts while ignoring me saying that I would be completely ignoring PZ until he gave actual content. I've pointed this out and asked him why, and yet there has been no response.

Look past the words at all of his scummy actions.

[VP Baltar]

*shakes fist*

you know you're a very frustrating Day 1 player SC because you never really want to lynch anyone until deadline. You're a regular debbie downer.

[VP Baltar]

lol, well that's a consolation prize for me anyhow.

What is the cliffnotes case on Amished, cause I'm not feeling that one at all at the moment?

ODDin I might be able to get on board with via some persuading.

[VP Baltar]

Sidenote: VP's playing really tight here for some reason.

I'm not sure what "playing really tight" means. Can you explain what that means.

As far as your SC wagon, I'm not attacking you for V/LA. I fully acknowledge that happens. My problem is that you were making it out to be an actual serious wagon. I still don't even understand what you were voting him for. "gameplay shennanigans" is wonderfully vague.

Further, you acted like I was missing out on something by ignoring your points up to that point, and in reality I still don't see what I was missing. Attacking me over illegitimate reasons rings as scummy to me.

[VP Baltar]

I don't see what I'm missing from your posts. Yes, you said it was a serious wagon, but ffs the question is

WHY

. Explain that referencing your posts at that time and I'll be satisfied. It's not complex.

[VP Baltar]

VP - why make me do a case on Amished and then totally and completely ignore it? *slap*

I'm sorry. I did read it, but didn't have time (or the will) to give you an indepth, point-by-point response. I will address it though before I leave for vacation (ie, most likely tomorrow).

All of your effort shall not be for naught!

[VP Baltar]

First up, addressing the Amished case by SC:

Edgy voting at start

This looks pretty categorically wrong to me. He switched to Sando and then back to you after he realized Sando hadn't posted on the site for two weeks. I don't think there is anything scummy about that.

Pushed SC wagon when he thought PZ was leading it, when PZ pulled out he left, ignoring the 'tell' he 'found' when he thought PZ was leading it.

This is slightly better, but may be dependent upon your history with Amished. It seemed to me he was voting you for what he perceived to be rolefishing, iirc. Have you two played together before? Has he seen your role fishing?

Odd disconnect between keeping quiet about said 'tell' and then in the reveal saying it was SC's stance on claims, which was hardly worth keeping quiet about, given it was so obvious.

But the point of "keeping quiet" was to allow PZ to make his statement first, correct? I don't think there is a disconnect there.

While I agree with you that Amished not following up on what he considered scummy about you on his own is a bit scummy, I don't agree that his interaction with PZ says much, if anything, about his alignment.

So,

Voteworthy?

Not at the moment, no.

---

Since I haven't formally said it yet, hi Charlatan! Good to play with you again (finally).

I'd attack anyone for ignoring another player. It's plain antitown.

I thought you said it was scummy earlier? which is it?

Why what? Why was it a serious wagon? I guess I'd have to ask what a funny wagon looked like.

No. I don't understand why we are talking past one another here. You said you wagoned him for "gameplay shennanigans". What were those specifically?

I realize it was an early wagon and games need wagons to start. I have always understood that and that's not the point I'm asking you about. I want to know what, specifically, made you feel at that point that SC was a good wagon to choose. What made the wagon SRS BSNS to you?

Loose vs tight playing is a poker term - playing with the best cards and rarely bluffing is playing tight, playing with a wider variety of hands and bluffing quite a lot is loose play. I imagine in mafia tight play means being careful with your votes, concentrating on obviously scummy things, where playing loose is throwing your vote around and pushing people all over the shop.

If that's his accusation, then I'd love for him to flesh it out.

Is there an elephant in the room that I don't know about? Do you by chance have some prior annoyance with each other? I get that vibe a little, and I think it will help me get a better read as we go on if I know.

Nah, PZ is cool in my book. He's just very wrong/possibly was attempting to launch a scummy attack on my "ignore" comment.

I am mostly looking for players who are not scumhunting or those who may be fabricating reasons to [attack others]

That's essentially what I'm attacking PZ over, though I agree that Sando is doing it at least as bad if not worse.

Zorblag, since you know ODDin best, what are your thoughts on his play this game and his attacks on PZ?

[VP Baltar]

It's antitown alone. It can be scummy in context. Hypothetical example: Someone makes a case on you and you ignore the player. In this instance, I'm asking you questions and you're flat-out telling me I'm full of crap and you aren't going to answer. I call scummy on that.

We're not talking about a hypothetical here, however. You said you were willing to vote me earlier for ignoring you and it certainly was not similar to the hypothetical scummy action you are describing.

Let me make it as clear as I possibly can, VP: any wagon, regardless of how it starts or who started it, is SRS BSNS.

This is patently false.

re: Voting SC over theory talk-OK, this is where our problem is coming from. Your assessment of SRS BSNS and mine are widely different. I still think you were stringing together a crappy attack against me because I called you out, but we're not making any progress like this and I guess I should be giving you more benefit of the doubt for now than I am.

Unvote

I'm most inclined to return my vote to Sando at the moment, but I want to see an updated count first.

[VP Baltar]

Mod, please note the V/LA in my sig

[VP Baltar]

How come you changed your mind about this?

Hindsight I suppose. When I read back over it I didn't get as much of an impression that it was edgy.

[VP Baltar]

Ok, guys, I realize deadline is close and i fully intend to catch up in this game and vote before it passes. I was traveling yesterday and had a few other games that were in the same situation as this one, except closer to deadline. i won't leave you hanging today though, so don't fret.

Going to start a quick reread now.

[VP Baltar]

Ok, caught up. I think I'm going to oblige SC this game. His case against Amished wasn't extremely moving, but there is something about Amished's play this game that isn't quite sitting right with me. I don't generally vote on gut reasons alone, but I'm rather pressed for time atm and Sando's latest bout of stamping his feet posting is nagging at me as honest.

I don't know if I'll be around at deadline, but if I am and Amished isn't going to happen I will switch to Sando.

Unvote, Vote: Amished

[VP Baltar]

haha, I knew you would be surprised.

[VP Baltar]

Hi guys, I'm back from V/LA now. Looks like I don't have much to catch up on, so I'll get something up today most likely.

[VP Baltar]

Had to catch up elsewhere that was more neglected, but that moved this game up to my number 1 catch up slot. Have to say I pretty strongly disagree with replacing Amished for being V/LA with another player who is V/LA for roughly the same time period....but I guess I'm not the mod.

[VP Baltar]

Papa Zito's 409 is just one big wtf.

No.

oDDin, I don't like that vote.

Vote: oDDin

What, why? I don't see any problem with his PZ vote.

Of course, as it turns out, those not on the bandwagon were correct. Would it be fair to say that your vote on Amished was almost entirely based on gut? And that your decision to stay off of the Sando wagon was based on gut?

The Amished vote was mostly based on gut and the fact that it was the only other real lynchable wagon. Someone has to go and I was having severe misgivings about Sando at the last minute. Those weren't based on gut, so much as his frustration seeming honest to me.

I'm going to have to do a re-reading of this game: I honestly have very little idea at this point. I hope to fix that and have something useful to say in the near future.

This statement plus being on the tail end of the Sando wagon = scum.

I think ODDin is tunneling too hard on PZ over something small. I don't mind people thinking PZ is scum necessarily, but I'd like to see a better case than that if you expect to persuade people that way.

@Zorblag-would you call yesterday's lynch a policy lynch?

---

I think there a lot of people playing this game tentatively and I don't like it very much. I know I was away for awhile, so I can't criticize too much, but the discussion here is greatly lacking. I have some ideas where we need to be looking, but need to check some things out first.

I'd really like more concrete opinions from Zorblag, Raskol, and Papa Zito very soon.

[VP Baltar]

That's a pretty ridiculous stance to take at this point Scien. I'd rather lynch on behavior than NK analysis this early in the game.

Who are your top suspects right now?

[VP Baltar]

ODDin, and you at the moment. But its weak.

Maybe my V/LA damaged my memory, but I don't remember you being suspicious of me. What is the case exactly?

I guess I should ask you right off the bat, are you suggesting the NK tells us absolutely nothing?

On day 2, no they don't say much of anything and aren't really worth wasting your time on unless something glaringly obvious is there...which it isn't here. I would much rather single out the scum on the Sando wagon than waste my time trying to divine NK motives.

Did you not think that people responding to the NK and actions afterward might have been referring to the NK? What makes you think that PapaZ's 'WTF' post didn't refer to the NK?

My point was that his post had no point to it...as have most of his posts this game. Why post with a stupid ass joke on Day 2 when you haven't contributed squat all game? You see where I'm coming from.

[VP Baltar]

blarg...this game needs a kick in the pants.

Vote: Zorblag

[VP Baltar]

I also don't feel that I understand your positions at all, and you've also been asked to give your top suspects (by Zorblag, as I recall) and have not done so. To a significantly lesser degree, Baltar also falls into this category.

If I'm being honest, I'm still trying to gain a strong direction in this game. Even at the end of Day 1 I wasn't feeling exceedingly confident about lynching anyone, which is atypical for me generally (though it seems to happen fairly often when playing in these "elite" style games). Right now my strongest feeling is to be feeling out the lynch wagon from yesterday, as it is likely there was at least one scum on it. Out of those folks, the Amished/ABR,Raskol, Zorblag and PZ slots interest me the most.

Auto ignore claim in begin game, nice. I don't like the ignoring of PapaZ's unstated intentions (wagoning for wagonings sake is the claim PapaZ later made about his intitions here).

I don't really want to get into this again because it is pointless by now, but I still feel I was correct.

He was willing to throw a big fuss at the time about it, possibly trying to decrease the wagon's effectiveness.

You mean the shit wagon against confirmed town SC? Sure.

And he bounced between PapaZ and Sando a bit. That could be legitimatly following concerns, or something else.

What do you mean "something else"? What would that something else be? Also, do you not feel either of those argument were genuine?

Pretty much immediately comes back and is on PapaZ again.

lol, I was? Where? I have barely mentioned PZ today.

VP, I am trying to understand the end of day 1 stuff you said. You had a high suspicion of PapaZ leading up to your vacation (your vote was on him), but right before you leave you vote Amished? And say if it Amished doesn't happen you'll just vote Sando? What changed so much that you were willing to leave an unwatched vote on Amished? If Papa was a big suspicion why Sando being the alternative to Amished? Are these guys so close in your head that you move between the group so easilly?

Context my friend.

PapaZ was not a legitimate lynch candidate when I was going on my V/LA at the end of day 1. It was going to be Sando or Amished. No lynch should never be an option on Day 1 and I like to do what I can to make sure that isn't going to happen. As I've already explained, I started to have misgivings about lynching Sando after my long dispute with him and his frustration began to feel more honest, so I put my vote on Amished, who I felt more confident about.

For your own reference:

7. A lynch suffers the requirement of a simple majority. If there is no majority at deadline, there will be no lynch

Sando was the alternative to Amished because no lynch isn't an option for me.

I don't understand your last question other than it looks like an attempt to slander me, which is cool I guess.

[VP Baltar]

Should be able to do some major work in this game this afternoon (I hope).

Mod, when is the deadline?

[VP Baltar]

OK, I spent a good part of my Sunday closely reading Day 1 again. This was actually surprisingly helpful and just what I needed to catch my bearings.

My biggest conclusion is that there is almost certainly scum between Raskol and Agar, if not both of them.

Two things really stood out to me about Raskol. The first is that he has alot of posts like post 134 where he says this:

I'd also like to see everyone either explain the reasoning behind their vote (unless they have already), or if there isn't any reason, find a reason to vote for someone and vote for them. At the very least, I think everyone should at least begin making clear efforts to show that they're working towards a position. The deadlines for this game are short, and we don't have a hell of a lot of time for feeling things out or joking around. People need to start taking positions ASAP---we'll need them later on.

This is one of those "I'm so town, rally the troops" posts, but what is really the goal? How does this help Raskol find scum, cause I don't know. There are plenty of examples of this kind of "scumhunting" throughout his iso.

There was also the very drawn out debate he was having with SC over his scumhunting style (focus on town reads). What bothers me about this is that Raskol apparently just completed a game with town-SC, and I think this is one of the most well known features of his play. Also, since Raskol said he wanted meta from everyone to get acquainted with everyone's style, I don't see how he couldn't know this. I think it was a pretty shoddy attack that could have transitioned into a mislynch on playstyle rather than actions had other people in this game not been familiar with SC.

Then of course we have Raskol's vote on the Sando wagon. While I felt he did raise a good point early early on with Sando (Sando's falsifying an attack on Amished), there is absolutely no follow through with it.

Then he simply seems to be feeling out the wagon after others pick up the attack:

Reading through what's happened in the past few days, I don't think my vote on ekiM is doing much, and charlatan is looking good atm. I'm considering whether to move to ODDin or Sando at this point; I wouldn't mind either one of them for today.

And then we have his vote:

Sando ignored my question, which makes baby jesus sad.

Unvote

vote: Sando

So, he votes Sando because he didn't answer his hypothetical question about who he would vig if he had the chance. WHAT IS SCUMMY ABOUT THAT!

What bothers me even more after that is that Raskol disappears for the rest of the day. While it wasn't a terribly long time, if he were town I'd think he'd at least check in with the deadline looming and no clear lynch happening when he had placed his vote. There was quite a bit going on at that time as well, so it wasn't like there was nothing to discuss.

Overall, I just see a lot of coasting and doing things to appear town rather than actually find scum from Raskol.

Unvote, Vote: Raskol

---

AGar I'm not going to go majorly in depth on at the moment because after that reread I'm very tired of looking at the computer, but I would say that he seemed overly lost yesterday. He only voted ekiM and when he was replaced he didn't really have a clue of what to do. I've played with AGar as town and, while he was a bit sloppy there, he most certainly did not tunnel so hard, nor was he devoid of ideas for scumhunting. Not liking it at all.

---

I'm not sure what I feel about ODDin. In some ways, I can understand what people are getting upset about, but another part of me just thinks he's really an overly tunneling townie. I could be wrong I guess, but I'm not feeling that lynch as much as I am Raskol.

---

Obviously my reread garnered more information than this, but I think that's enough for now. I upped my town reads on some people, but I don't think that's necessary to reveal. Apart from Raskol and AGar, I'm not the biggest fan of Scien, ABR, or PapaZ, but I don't know if I'd prefer any of their lynches over the first two.

[VP Baltar]

Yeah, and I second Oj's request for a

deadline extension, mod?

If not, people just need to organize and lynch scum-Raskol.

[VP Baltar]

Sorry, my vote was in the middle of my post.

Unvote, Vote: Raskol

[VP Baltar]

PZ, what are your thoughts on the Raskol case I put forth? I think it's better than "fencesitting" against Troll.

Also, what are your suspicions on Scien? He's bothering me a bit, but I can't quite put my finger on it.

[VP Baltar]

I had a tentative townread on Raskol earlier, although he's seemed uninterested today. VP, what was the game with him and Serial, Commie mafia?

I would assume, though SC didn't say specifically. I saw that he replaced later into that game, but he still would have read the first day I assume and it is pretty well known across the board that SC is generally not that helpful on Day1. What was your townread based on exactly?

[VP Baltar]

Well, it's like four days from deadline....I don't think it's really fair to your team, regardless of alignment, to replace out. But that's your decision I suppose.

[VP Baltar]

Well I guess Raskol won't be sticking out the rest of the day. This hurts my soul a bit, but I don't know if I can lynch a player slot that has been vacated. Given this turn of events, I'd be up for an AGar lynch, but people need to start talking here.

Unvote, Vote: AGar

[VP Baltar]

One of {AGar, ODDin, VP Baltar} should be lynched today for not being on the Sando wagon.

Your noobness is showing, better tuck that in.

[VP Baltar]

Still showing, reiterate request for tucking.

But more seriously, your own examples (which is a uselessly small sample size) demonstrates that you're MORE likely to find scum on a mislynch than off. Out of the 9 scum in your sample games, 6 were on Day 1 mislynches. So, why would you rather look off of the wagon when the evidence you are drawing your conclusions from overwhelmingly says that you're more likely to find scum on the Sando lynch?

Why are you so quick to distinguish my comment as idiotic rather than as scummy? Why jump to the "non-alignment-indicative idiocy/mediocrity" conclusion as opposed to the "scum pushing for a wagon on anyone from a set of three players while staying vague about his own reads so that he can give whichever potential wagon seems the most popular a boost for an easy mislynch" conclusion?

Because I don't jump to conclusions from one poorly-thought out theory. Should i be suspecting you for pushing bad cases?

Also, how do either of these questions help you determine my alignment?

[VP Baltar]

Why are you leaning one of those two ODDin? What do you want to hear from them?

[VP Baltar]

Tomorrow is deadline folks....more lynching AGar needs to be happening today.

[VP Baltar]

Also while I am thinking of it, could you explain your griefs with me VP. Right now all I have is 'he is vaguely making me feel a bad vibe', and I don't recall much probing from you up till now.

So, what's your point? I don't have to probe anything about you to have a feeling about your play in this game. It's not like I'm pushing for your lynch without putting out a case. If I feel you have been scummy enough that I want you lynched, I'll bring a full case. Don't worry.

Well I guess Raskol won't be sticking out the rest of the day. This hurts my soul a bit, but I don't know if I can lynch a player slot that has been vacated.

Er... out of some feeling of fairness or what? If you honestly think him your top suspect, why does the replace matter?

er...out of actually trying to lynch scum. I posted my case and Raskol didn't respond to any of it, how am I supposed to judge his actions from there? Maybe he had a good explanation for the things he did that I just wasn't seeing. That is why I asked him to stay until the end of the day at least and give an account for himself. I wanted to hear his responses and see if my suspicions were grounded. That's how scumhunting works. Lynching a replacement solely on the actions of their predecessors is probably one of the worst things you can do unless it was something blatantly scummy.

Er. So instead you completely wrote off his actions? Please tell me you considered what his motives may have been... especially from someone replacing what seems like 2 seconds ago was your biggest suspect.

It was a stupid question when crypto asked it and it remains so when you repeated it.

At the moment I didn't have a overly negative view towards Raskol and you guys are mainly fighting about what Crypto's stance means, which is cool. Have at it.

I'm not fighting with him really, just pointing out that his arguments are not a logical way of scumhunting. His approach seems noobish rather than scummy, but I'm not a very good judge at finding noob-scum because of their predispostion for bad ideas regardless of alignment.

I know its mainly self-interested, but you have done nothing to interrogate me even though I am suddenly giving you a bad feeling that you can't explain. Suspicion without trying to clear it up = suspicion that is furthering your goals somehow. Tell me why I am wrong.

^This is you being over-sensitive about people suspecting you.

Your end of day voting... er... policies(?) still strikes me as odd.

Wow, that's amazingly vague. Explain to me how my end of the day voting was not logical given my explanation.

Post 515 was unaddressed and contains most of my points before this big Crypto fight stuff.

I thought i had addressed everything you said, but I'll look back after this post.

I do agree with Crypto that it is odd that he replaced what was your biggest suspect (judging from your vote), and when he comes in with a move that you apparently disapprove of (judging from the long fight now), you immediately shrug it off as newbie instead of probing it for scumminess. This actually is a fairly big black mark for you since I was mildly suspect of you before now.

I don't believe Crypto said anything of this nature actually. I'd like you to explain my motivation as scum for carrying out the actions you are accusing me of. I don't understand why it's a "fairly big black mark" or how it would help forward any goals as scum.

[VP Baltar]

From Post 515:

I don't really want to get into this again because it is pointless by now, but I still feel I was correct.

I wasn't really trying to get you to go into it again. I just hold it as a meh moment, and it is part of the reason for my current views towards you.

k

You mean the shit wagon against confirmed town SC? Sure.

Heh. Hindsight is fun. You didn't know that he was town at the time, in theory, however.

So it would be impossible for a town player to think a wagon was bad at that point because he or she doesn't know alignments for certain...that's completely ludicrous.

Some other motive, I don't know what yet. I personally think the PapaZ argument sounded a bit... er... awkward we'll say. But I guess that comes from me reading between the lines. What I took for a granted implication in his 'lol scum' post, you seemed lost from to the point that it made you suspicious. Manipulation or just not seeing the situation, well I guess we will see soon enough.

See, I get sick and tired of people on this site making nebulous accusations. What were you "reading between the lines" exactly? What could I have been 'manipulating' by saying "wtf" to a one liner from PZ? The more you reach like this, the less I'm liking you and I can't tell if it's because your scum or if it's because you're distrust me after our last game together.

lol, I was? Where? I have barely mentioned PZ today.

Well that probably flys since it was a quiet day until recently. When I wrote that note I was talking about you post 36 in iso. I should say that 'on PZ immediately' or whatever I said would be incorrect at this point. Even though one of your first big points was against him today, but you quickly looked elsewhere...

What big point? I never made a big point against PZ. Please quote that. Also explain how me looking at suspects other than PZ makes me scummy.

VP wrote:
PapaZ was not a legitimate lynch candidate when I was going on my V/LA at the end of day 1. It was going to be Sando or Amished. No lynch should never be an option on Day 1 and I like to do what I can to make sure that isn't going to happen. As I've already explained, I started to have misgivings about lynching Sando after my long dispute with him and his frustration began to feel more honest, so I put my vote on Amished, who I felt more confident about.

Theory smoke? And yes I agree with the theory smoke, but my confusion is more than what you are suggesting with the theory talk. If you have time to come change it before deadline, why not leave it where your suspicions lie. You said you would be back by the time deadline approached. However, you decided that your strongest suspect is not good enough anymore and subscribe to an end of day either/or? I see this as a bit funny and worth looking at. Why am I wrong?

I don't understand what "theory smoke" you are referring to. No lynches on Day 1 are bad...that's not theory, that's common sense. That's why you're wrong.

All in all Scien, I fail to understand any of your suspicions and I don't understand how, from a town perspective, you are perceiving any of the things you are presenting as being scummy.

[VP Baltar]

Albert B. Rampage isn't playing how I'm used to for him but this is a different game setting than I've seen before.

What does this mean?

Also, why is Ojanen higher on your list than Charlatan? Reading your synopsis of the game, I would have expected their positions to be switched.

I can examine all players and still focus on a small group. I'll certainly give a little more focus to that group when I'm short on time.

I would actually like you to comment on some people in this game who are not ODDin. You haven't really said much about anyone else since replacing in. What are your thoughts on how Day 1 went down? Who do you find scummy for reasons more than "not on a lynch wagon"?

Yes, actually, I read/skimmed twenty-one pages in one night to replace into your precious fucking game, which you weren't even fucking participating in a week ago, with four days to your precious fucking deadline. I had zero reason to build a case on AGar when (a) he was already a popular lynch choice and (b) I wanted to walk the line between him and Zorblag as my top suspect before Zorblag posted his long-awaited analysis. If you really feel the need to make me, crypto, build a case on AGar, then I will, but I see zero motivation to do so.

I really hate that you're saying "I don't have to contribute because the person I want to get lynched is already likely". I mean, if that's not a scum mentality, I don't know what is.

I want your case on Zorblag before he posted please.

[VP Baltar]

I still have questions over this. You believed him scum enough to place a vote. You had questions out true. But you believed him scum. The response to the replace is to remove your vote? How is that trying to lynch scum?

Yes, you lost the opportunities to see reactions to your points on your target. That sucks. But you suspicions should remain no?

Where did I ever say I wouldn't be keeping an eye on crypto? I'll give you a pro-tip here, the best way to deal with replacements of a scummy player is to let them play for awhile and see if they make scummy actions of their own. If they do, you almost certainly have scum on your hands. If not, then your original read may be wrong.

But the replace has you removing your vote, and apparently your suspicions too.

No, you are claiming I'm not suspicious of the slot when my actual stance is to observe at the moment. They are quite different approaches, but fill in the blanks however you like to make your case.

One possible motive. You were adding pressure on someone that eventually replaced. Seeing that they replaced, you lost the nerve to follow through and risk the town seeing you push towards a townie lynch. The replace was a good time as any to remove your vote and 'look elsewhere'.

This makes no sense whatsoever. Why would I 'lose my nerve' to get a mislynch? If I'm scum, isn't that my main objective? And it's not like a big threat replaced into the slot...as opposed to a relative noob who would not be that difficult to get a mislynch on.

Less negative on playstyle motive? You realize it is getting towards end of day, and that your target is not going to be the lynch. You need to free vote up so that you can press towards people with more townie interest on them. Replace came along and gave you a good excuse to remove your vote and lose your suspicions.

Also doesn't make sense since I put my vote on my number two suspect, which I stated as such before Raskol replaced out.

I really have to go into theory? Wagon's are tools. Pressure helps get real reactions out of people. It doesn't matter if the target was good or bad really. The pressure is the goal.

If a wagon is shit, expect me to tell you so. Like I said, I was justified in SC's flip. You can call it a scumploy all you want, facts are facts, and you're reaching to ridiculous ends.

You were on PapaZ. You supposedly had him as your main suspect. But were going to be away towards end game. But back in time for deadline. You change your vote to the developing either/or anyway, and say that when you get back you will change it if necessary?

Are you even looking for context AT ALL? I voted for Amished barely over a day before deadline. How likely do you think it would have been for me to get a PapaZ lynch in a day's time when he had no votes for him and multiple people had said they weren't moved by the arguments presented? Hint: basically zero.

I said I would make an effort to be around at deadline to help a lynch go through if Amished wasn't happening. I had already committed myself that he was the best of the possibilities presented. Now stop being ignorant with your tunnelling and actually do your research.

---

@crypto 557-the two posts you quoted from me do not show a difference of opinion in the least. As a replacement, especially into a suspicious slot, you have an obligation to prove your towniness to me. A case on alleged suspect Zorblag would help that. Get chopping or get lynched.

---

I'm probably going to be lynched tomorrow, I guess that's not going to change. That's fine. I haven't played the best game, and it's a pretty fair reasoning to lynch me.

Not really able read this as a strong alignment tell either way in itself but if you look at this

3. There should probably be way more pressure on me since I have not really contributed as much as I would personally have liked to in this game. It actually pisses me off that no one has come after me for anything yet, because I gain reads that way.

Where's the guy who supposedly strives under pressure, where's the reads and reactions t your wagon?
There's a dissonance here to him currently flapping around somewhat phlegmatically, hate the defeatism.
If he's scum, he's taking it too peacefully, I would guess some bussing to have taken effect already in that case.
If you're town, fight dammit, get content out.

Just take time to make it to the deadline before hammering so a gameplan can be figured out for tomorrow.

Especially if you want this, take the passive language out please. [/quote]
I agree with all of this. AGar, if this is like our newbie game together you really need to pull something together to make me believe you are town like you did in that game. I thought you learned from there that being defeatist gets you nowhere. You're being ten times worse here (with less OMGUSing) and it makes me really uncomfortable...and leaves pretty much no choice but ot lynch you.

VP, Scien's referencing the fact that you unvoted PZ before going V/LA 4 days before DL while saying you'll probably vote Sando when you drop in closer to it. I think you remember wrong the vote situation though, it was Sando 4 and four others, including Zito, at 2 votes, Amished wagon wasn't born yet really.

Well crap. I guess I was remembering it wrong. I didn't really go back to look at the exact time line until today, but yeah...I don't understand his argument either way.

Why do you think crypto is a noob? His join date is less than a month away from Zito's, Seral's and mine for instance, and he's played plenty.

Noobishness doesn't have everything to do with join date. His approach to the game, however, screams noob. Look at the way he wants to look for scum. It's not exactly a refined process, nor do I think it would be a very effective method.

For me, experienced scum hunters look for motivations as their lead scumhunting tool...which is part of the reason I do not understand Scien's tunneling on me, since a majority of the things he is presenting as points have no easily visible scum motive.

I'm worried about Ojanen.

You've piqued my interest, anything concrete?

ABR has made one big posted and coasted.

I agree with this.

[VP Baltar]

Well, that's at least better than what you had before. Also, why do you insist on trying to insult every single person that questions you?

[VP Baltar]

Where the hell is charlatan? I hope everyone posts before deadline...I have a pretty uneasy feeling about how this entire day has gone really.

[VP Baltar]

Wow, that was effective...lemme try something.

WHERE THE HELL IS MY MILLION DOLLARS?

[VP Baltar]

Get your last words in here folks and someone swing the hammer.

[VP Baltar]

Wait, I want to hear what charlatan has to say....hopefully he'll get something in here before deadline.

[VP Baltar]

I get a vague sense that this is pre-emptively blaming AGar for his mislynch in the event that he flips town. This is hard to quantify, and I wonder if I'm alone in this.

Yeah, I get where you are coming from. My problem is that, like you, I sort of feel that he's just such an easy target that if he's not scum, they must be jumping up and down right now. They really don't have to do anything...which is why I wanted him to participate and make me solidly believe he's town so I could lynch elsewhere. Rolling over if you're town is really bad form, but at the same time you can't expect the rest of the town to let you go (not that AGar apparently does).

If he flips town, then I'll take my share of the blame.

[VP Baltar]

Yeah, crypto replacement...as if that slot wasn't hard enough to read as it is.

Zorblag, PZ and ABR-who are your suspects?

Oj-I'd like your thoughts on how yesterday went down. Doesn't have to be anything too elaborate, I just felt like you weren't very present and I need to improve my read on you.

Charlatan...you're about the only person I am certain is town at this point. That bothers me.

[VP Baltar]

Hey crypto, ODDin's town, AGar's town, I'm town....what are your thoughts on who is scum or can we just lynch you now?

[VP Baltar]

I'm for mass claim.

[VP Baltar]

I'd like crypto to claim first, but majority would obviously choose.

[VP Baltar]

You don't get to determine the order there, buddy boy. Get with the times. Popcorn claim is the professional way to do things.

[VP Baltar]

Does the popped determine the next claim?

Yes, the first person is chosen by the majority and then they claim. As a part of their claim, they then pick the next person to claim and so on and so forth.

It keeps it random and prevents the scum from using their numbers to manipulate the claiming order in a way that would be beneficial to them.

[VP Baltar]

PZ is very obv. scum btw.

Check how many mislynches he has brought the tail end up on this "fail train". He or crypto needs to be lynched today.

@Scien-I don't really think it will matter much if crypto or I go first, since each of us will probably name the other as next anyhow.

[VP Baltar]

Not like I had a town read on you at all. Seriously though, you have been pretty much vacant most of this game and yet always find your way onto the later parts of the lynching wagons.

I'm curious why you are quick to label the town as a "fail train" when you haven't really been doing much of anything to change that.

If crypto isn't scum, you most definitely are. ABR could probably go in with either of you. Not 100% on a third yet.

[VP Baltar]

Clearly the scum have no sense given their NKs already. I'm very happy to discuss my suspects because they need to be lynched, mylo or not. If someone is scum, then they need to gets got. Plain and simple. Play like you have a pair Scien.

[VP Baltar]

I think we've already reached a majority in favor of mass claim from the living players, so we should probably get on with it.

So far we have myself wanting crypto to go first and Scien wanting me to go first. Everyone else should probably specify (or restate if I missed it).

[VP Baltar]

sorry, and ABR voted for Scien to go first. We're at one vote apiece here people.

[VP Baltar]

We should mass claim first and then decide if we want to no lynch or not. Roles being hidden in a no reveal game is frakking stupid.

Any PRs out there would likely have at least some information that is going to be helpful in narrowing down the pool of suspects.

You never know what is going to shake out in a massclaim.

[VP Baltar]

Sorry VP, Zorblag sparked my paranoid nature.

lol, I'm starting to see that this is the code you live by.

[VP Baltar]

No, you're just a very paranoid guy when it comes to mafia.

[VP Baltar]

@Troll and Scien- I disagree that no lynching after mass claim is stupid. If it was full reveal, I'd agree, but we don't have any clue what we are losing at night. At least if somebody is killed in full reveal and flips cop or something you can look for breadcrumbs. Here there is nothing and I think the more information we have now before making a decision is going to be clutch in making the correct choice today.

(For the record Scien, I'm not opposed to No Lynch on all grounds. I was just teasing you a bit.)

[VP Baltar]

Nilla here. ABR next.

[VP Baltar]

Scratch that. PZ next.

[VP Baltar]

lol, let's see if your edit goes through better than mine did.

[VP Baltar]

I know it was a simul post. I was just teasing. You don't have to follow my order. If you think Zorblag is a better choice from your perspective, then that's who should claim next.

[VP Baltar]

Frankly, I'm inclined to believe charlatan given PZ's scummy play for most of this game and the fact that charlatan is the only person I have seen who is recognizably town from their play. We also have two dead townies that we have no clue what they were, so it is possible this game had very few PRs.

It could be mountainous, but I hate mountainous setups. So there.

[VP Baltar]

@VP Baltar, who do you think suspected ODDin at the end of the day yesterday?

crypto and Oj off of the top of my head. I think there were some others who were at least mildly suspicious. I know that even though I hadn't pursued it much in thread, it did cross my mind that his tunneling was a bit scummy.

@everyone, what role did you have in the aborted version of this game? Troll's role then was vanilla townie as well.

I was vanilla then as well.

[VP Baltar]

Zito, why are you inclined to believe this is a mountainous game if you had a bulletproof vest in the first installment?

[VP Baltar]

We're playing a different setup.

Yeah...incorrect answer. Correct answer would be "because I'm not scum and didn't target anyone".

Scum confirmed.

[VP Baltar]

Ok, apart from my initial point about what a town member would have responded...how does you not having a bulletproof vest indicate that we are more likely to have a mountainous setup than anything else? That's not exactly conclusive evidence.

[VP Baltar]

Yeah, well, mine's also town. I was hoping someone would contradict PZ, but retrospectively that would be a really stupid move.

So, who would have been scum out of that to you? I don't see why you would expect someone to contradict him if your PM says the same thing.

[VP Baltar]

Troll continues to believe that this no should be a mountainous game. If it do be then there should only be two scum so we no be in LyLo anyhow. Otherwise the balance no works at all and, as Troll said, with the reviewers involved Troll would expect even a backup setup to be at least reasonably balanced.

Yeah, this is true...not sure why I didn't think of this, but 3 scum in a mountainous setup would never pass Vi. So, if Zito IS telling the truth, we should lynch him and at worse would have a confirmed scum tomorrow.

Also, upon further reflection, he is likely lying about the bulletproof vest. I don't see a mini normal being allowed to have "items" instead of roles. Doesn't really seem normal to me.

[VP Baltar]

VP Baltar, could you explain why you said that clearly the scum have no sense given their night kills already? Troll had expected you to think that more people had strong suspicions of ODDin when you made that statement but you only listed a couple. Troll also no found the kill of SerialClergyman particularly surprising.

I was mostly referring to the ODDin kill. There was nothing exceedingly protown about him and he was spending most of his time tunneling people who were suspicious of him rather than actually scumhunting.

Also, I was just going off the top of my head when I listed people who were suspicious of him. Looking at the votecount from yesterday, his wagon peaked with AGar, Charlatan, and Ojanen on it. crypto was also suspicious of him. Then AGar was lynched and confirmed town. So, we would have had 3 living players (4 to lynch) today who were suspicious of him. Yeah, that scumkill doesn't make much sense to me.



Also, reminder to everyone, ABR is still alive in this game!

[VP Baltar]

Pretty sure Sando claimed VT. That's off memory though.

Charlatan's argument for 'town would go back to display how he's scum' is a bit null, imo. Townie's get lazy too. (not that I think PZ is town). High word count DNE being town.

I think the strongest argument for the PZ lynch today is the mountainous balance issue. Mountainous is a VERY difficult setup for town to win (I've lost and seen lots of other towns lose on mountainous), and having 3/12 scum is about as near to impossible for town to win as can be.

Therefore, if this is actually a mountainous setup, we're almost certainly not in lylo.

I'm pretty much ready to lynch PZ at this point.

[VP Baltar]

Baltar, it's more that PZ didn't put in effort AND didn't make the right arguments. His posts are like two-line "Setup and my role PM say you're scum" jobs as opposed to, heck, just a paragraph-long

case

.

Whatever. Apparently 9:37 PM is when my writing stops being remotely lucid.

Yeah, I get where you are coming from. I also pointed out that some of his arguments didn't make sense from a town perspective. Anyhow, you don't have to convince me of a PZ lynch. The only reason I'm not voting at the moment is I would like Oj a chance to post her thoughts.

@ABR-yeah, that is my logic and I can't really see any holes in it.

[VP Baltar]

@Scien-see above mountainous logic. Either way we get a scum out of the deal. PZ is today's lynch.

[VP Baltar]

Put a hole in the logic I presented and I'll not be adamant about it. Until then, I'll continue to think it's the best course of action (and justification for my early scum read on him).

Also, it's not really a quick lynch. I'm not even voting yet.

[VP Baltar]

You're a trooper Oj.

[VP Baltar]

Could someone enlighten me on something though? Why all the speculation on setup? Does it actually help scum hunt? If we don't know if there are power roles dead, we can't know that there are no power roles. Everything is speculation. How can such baseless speculation help scum hunt.

Yes it does. I'll explain for you.

charlatan has claimed to have tracked scum PZ.

PZ says this is impossible because he is vanilla and this is a mountainous setup.

Now, the standard for a mountainous setup is to have 2 scum for every 10 players. That means if PZ is telling the truth about being vanilla and we are likely in a mountainous setup, there are only 2 scum anyway and we are not in a mylo situation. If this is the case, we'll have guaranteed scum charlatan tomorrow and still be sitting pretty good.

If charlatan is telling the truth, well PZ is scum and we save our mislynch for later since there is likely 3 scum here.

Either way you look at it, PZ is the lynch.

@ABR-If PZ flips scum, who do you think his buddies are?

[VP Baltar]

Let's get this show on the road.

Vote: Papa Zito (L-2)

[VP Baltar]

crypto, ABR, Scien are prob town.

Thanks for the list of your buddies.

[VP Baltar]

Less talking, more lynching Zito scum. It could not be any more freaking obvious.

[VP Baltar]

Dearest PZ scum buddies,

At this point it is quite obvious you are late to the party. However, not all is lost! You've stalled and kicked the dirt around for some time now, but it is apparent that your tactics have failed and the time has come for you to bus. To this end, we have left a nice warm seat for you on the tail of this wagon that would allow you to receive at least SOME town credit that you could desperately cling to in a subsequent day as you are about to be lynched. If you act now, I promise you will be the last one lynched and you will at least be able to say, "well...I was the last one lynched."

Yours most sincerely,

VPB

[VP Baltar]

It just happened. I appreciate the shout out though.

[VP Baltar]

GG, scum.

I think there were a few factors that contributed to the town being completely out-classed this game.

1) I played terribly and wasn't as interested in this game as I should have been. I always feel a personal responsibility for town losses if I'm around this long and don't produce some actual good content. Boo me. I don't know what it was, but I could just never get traction with my thoughts in this game. I thought I really had something with Raskol, but then crypto replaced and felt very noobish so I basically went back to square one.

2) General town disinterest. The activity level here sucked for the most part on such short deadlines and when people were posting (myself included), much of it was garbage that was not really helping find scum. Crypto's whole theory was a huge alley way that did not need to be gone down at all. PZ was very disinterested in this game as well, which was unfortunate. Troll did a good job later in the game I thought, but we were already down so far with the AGar lynch (giving up is an awful tactic, btw, please don't do that again) I don't think we could have done much to turn it around.

3) Replacements! I hate replacements. I was really quite disappointed when Amished was replaced with ABR because I don't know ABR at all. Having at least some meta is useful and I think if Amished had stayed I might have had a better chance of at least catching onto him. I'm glad at least that I have a bit of a scum meta on Oj and charlatan because they are both p. good at looking town and I've never seen either as scum.

4) What little power roles we had missing their opportunities. Accidental of course, but with 3 (good) scum and a lazy town, we needed every bit of help we could get.

My only other comment would be: Scien, stop tunneling the shit out of me! I was pretty certain you were town, but I could not get you to look anywhere else. lol. I think you were still harboring reads from our last game.

[VP Baltar]

Ojanen - next time I get even a whiff of a night kill, you're in my sights!

VP - thanks for finally siding with one of my bizarre theories on D1.. I was very touched to hear you'd voted Amished

Haha, you just have to give me a chance to get used to you. My meta on you gets better all the time, so it's easier to tell when you're being genuine. Just a shame I didn't follow up on it the next day. I think if you had lived one more day, we could have really done some damage together.

[VP Baltar]

Oh, and thanks Troll for the great idea. I think a best of the newbies game should be held each year.

[VP Baltar]

Well, I was trying to wind down my commitments a bit...but I did play like shite here and wouldn't mind a chance to redeem myself. Let me think about it for a day and I might /in.

[VP Baltar]

After some thought (and many of my other games wrapping up in the very near future), I'll /in. I don't care about the setup really.

[VP Baltar]

Amished might want AGar's spot since he didn't get a chance to finish this game.

[VP Baltar]

So we need to find someone for PZ's spot (I'd nom PorkchopExpress). What about Oj? Is she going to be around...seems like she's been a bit overwhelmed with traveling.