Mafia 119: MURDER AT HOTEL DEATH(GAME OVER)

[DemonHybrid]

Vote: Stef

[DemonHybrid]

Unvote, Vote: Looker

[DemonHybrid]

Unvote, Vote: Espeonage

[DemonHybrid]

@Mod: V/LA until Saturday night, sorry.

[DemonHybrid]

@Mod: I need to extend the V/LA until sunday afternoon. Were staying an extra night and i can barely reply...doing so on my terrible pantech matrix.

Posting some thoughts tomorrow.

[DemonHybrid]

I'm back.

I need to regain myself before I post though, so hang tight. Expect a post around 4 or so.

[DemonHybrid]

4 PM EST (at request of Espy)

[DemonHybrid]

Alright, I guess I can get started.

I posted nothing at first to see what peoples' reactions would be to absolutely no reasoning from me and especially with sharp-timed votes. I really had no clue that everyone else was going to follow on my Espy vote. But let me explain what I think about everyone and everything so far:

My Looker vote: The only reasoning of this vote was for RVS, and on Looker because his vote was differently formatted. He responded actually quite well for an RVS vote without stated reasoning and in an interesting way. I left it on to see if I could get another reaction and to see if I could sharp-time my vote for more reactions from others. Then game the Jack/Espy fiasco, as I'd like to call it.

This Jack/Espy fiasco: I felt like Jack was acting too scummy for his own good...a meta check with Jack shows that he likes early-game gambits, hence his talk on the post restriction. Reaction fishing. So I waited and thought about putting pressure on Prana, but I noticed that a LOT of people were starting to fall for his gambit (albeit not voting him quite yet)...so I decided to wait for the one person that actually agreed with Jack and found him town to take advantage of being the "smart guy who knows whats up and looks most town":

Post #31: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p2489439, Espy comes into play. I didn't vote here because I wanted to see more reasoning.

Post #46: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p2490168, I felt like this was a good enough time to act on my suspicions and to put some more pressure on him. I had a feeling like he felt like he made a mistake and he wanted to roll with his earlier statement to sound consistent...but failing in the process. vollkan wrapped it up quite nicely in his #48. Vibes and "thinking he knows what his role is"? Why didn't you just think of the obvious and feel like he was gambiting? This is a sort of "in the middle" viewpoint between thinking it's a gambit and falling for it that doesn't sit right with me.

Jack's vote on me (#54): This looks more townie than anything else, completely disregarding all other talk of "post restrictions" and all that jazz. He wanted more reaction out of me. I'm not really sure how to scale my suspicions on vollkan's number scale, but if I had to, I'd say it's a -3 type of post. /shrug. Nicol's reaction to his vote....is...well, I don't know. I'm leaning more towards a confused VT thinking that Jack's priorities are skewed. Neutral-townish tell to me.

Looker #59: Well, here you go. Also...I don't like most of the reasoning to what you're responding to...short but agreeable responses (scum's town-looking grace) and missing the obvious (especially on Jack's "post restriction") makes me feel like you're in the same boat as Espy, but not as deeply. You're the first one that asked me why I don't have reasoning in my votes....so I find that more townish as well in this case; it's gone on long enough to cause some people to start to wonder. I get a neutral tell from this post, but you're treading on thin ice...I mean I can SEE how a bussing convo can go between you and Espy and not be surprised by it. I do want to say that you saying that a2rudeboy's vote on himself is "bussing" does -not- sit right with me.

@Snake absolutely forgetting that RVS was over (#63): More of a newbie mistake than anything else. Completely null. If anyone had attacked him over this, I would have probably auto-voted the attacker.

The exchange from #82-#84: I'm somewhat confident that at this point, from my reads, one of you are scum and one of you are town. Not really sure which is which, and I'm still leaning towards Espy, but I can see how Espy:

1. can be the scapegoat in this case,
2. can just be legitimately screwing up as scum.

I'm not ready to make a clear cut decision on this quite yet. But I don't feel like you both are scum, and I don't really think you both are town.

Pom's #86: Eh......not really liking this vote. Call it a hunch. He wasn't really wishy-washy at all, just not very clear. Neutral-scummy.

My thoughts on Cooldog and a2 at this point: Somewhat townish...I like Cooldog more than a2, but that doesn't mean that I find a2 outright scummy. Pretty pro-active views on this game and not afraid to scumhunt. I don't agree with a2 saying that Espy and Jack are buddying up, but that might just be a disagreement on views.

Jack's #90: COMPLETELY anti-town, but I wouldn't say it's scummy...Jack is being Jack in this case, he likes to unnerve people. I will keep this post in mind, but I would not include this in a case on him, simple as that. At least, not yet. Anyway, Jack: Cut it the hell out, man.

Nero Cain's vote on me (#92): Another eh. You're more vocal than Looker was and I'm not sure if I like that, but once again, it's been going on long enough for anyone to start to get suspicious. If you had done this after my Espy vote, I probably would have voted you, but I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here, especially since you're pretty persistent on it...but I don't like you're reasoning though. You're going to need more evidence than "I'm voting and going V/LA" to seriously build a case on me. Scummy-ish, so consider my eye on you.

Espy's #95: I don't like the fact that you're asking for questions...scummy post. I do that a lot as scum in order to psychologically gain everyone's trust. At this point, I'm definitely leaning towards you as scum, jack as town.

#107, #108 exchange: I'm not sure what to make of this for right now, but keeping my eye on it for later.

Jack voting for everyone is....again, just Jack being Jack, I think. I believe wholeheartedly that he's just town being REALLY anti-town and I'd wish that he'd stop. I don't really agree with his reads.

Now....the claims.

I believe the claims. All 4 of them.

What I'm THINKING is that there's a town+town combo and a town+scum combo. It'd be a bit too skewed towards Mafia to have two town+scum combos, and too bastardish-confusing to have two town+town combos. I would say my suspicion out of TNM, CKD, zwets and Pom: It would probably be Pom. Flying under the radar composure-wise. I would like zwet to post more. I also think the claim is VERY important for today and gives us a great deal of info.

So, here's my wrap-up:

There's zwet vs. Pom: I believe Pom is scum here.
Jack vs. Espy: I believe Espy is scum.
CKD and TNM: Both are town.
Vollkan looks somewhat town to me.
Snake....I'm not sure yet. I've got my eye on him.
Cooldog is townish, a2, not so much, but still alright.
Horrordude's okay.
Nicol...I want to see him post more.
NC: Somewhat scummy but I'm not going to be bold enough to point my hand towards him, but I feel like I want to see more from him.

I would be comfortable with an Espy or Pom lynch for today. I'm not going to get ahead of myself and post a full 4 or 5 person scumlist when it's not quite needed.

[DemonHybrid]

Yeah I don't think Pom and I are scum together. You could argue bussing but tipping point is a stupid vote to bus on. I reckon that the scum there is either zwet or TNM if your theory on the alignment of the neighbour pairs is correct.

Don't preach to me on what constitutes a good vote then pin the blame on who I outwardly expressed as town.

I feel even more confident at this point.

[DemonHybrid]

Also, can one of the partners tell me their exact role name. Don't paraphrase the role name, state it exactly as it's written (and thus how it would show up with the flip).

I, too, would like to know this, to follow up.

[DemonHybrid]

4a. On that note, quoting or using the structure of the role PM in any way is a two-strike deal. If you do it once, you get a warning. Maybe. You do it twice, modkill. Two strikes, you're out.

But you can say the name of the role, not quote the PM, right?

[DemonHybrid]

Sera, I want a rule clarified before I make a point.

We're allowed to quote/paraphrase whatever you've said in this thread, correct? It doesn't state so in the rules, but it usually is one.

[DemonHybrid]

VOTE: zwet In his claim post just before he seemed as if he was flopping onto the townieness of CKDs claim. I don't like that. Also that last post just now doesn't sit with me very well either.

I'm guessing you decided to dodge my last post.

It feels like I struck a nerve with you and you've decided to pass the buck onto zwet.

I want more people to comment on the Pom/Espy connection here. That was a pretty obvious soft-defense of her.

[DemonHybrid]

Yeah I don't think Pom and I are scum together. You could argue bussing but tipping point is a stupid vote to bus on. I reckon that the scum there is either zwet or TNM if your theory on the alignment of the neighbour pairs is correct.

Don't preach to me on what constitutes a good vote then pin the blame on who I outwardly expressed as town.

I feel even more confident at this point.

Did you decide not to comment on this, or did you just not read it?

[DemonHybrid]

Except that I find you more scummy because

1. You're one of the four claimed neighborvigs
2. I have a theory that there's one town-town team and one town-scum team and pretty sure of it due to a hope that this game wasn't bastardmodded
3. You're just acting scummy on your own.

I believe that you're scum with Espy by association...and then he soft-defended you.

So, yeah.

Assuming

you both are scum, he did make a mistake by associating you with him. You should probably yell at him in the QT tonight if he's still alive =|

[DemonHybrid]

CKD:

I'm with Prana. I want to know the title of your role.

So deal. Are you going to vote me too?

[DemonHybrid]

well kids, you are not getting it...you got a problem with that vote me....

Nope. Sticking with who I think is scum. You're just stubborn. Nice AtE there though.

If others are willing to out the role name, I'm sure they'd be more helpful. zwet, TNM, Pom?

Preview edit: Like I'm saying now: Stubborn, not scummy.

And NO. Saying the role name or any other available info is PRO-TOWN. That is a -fact-.

[DemonHybrid]

And NO. Saying the role name or any other available info is PRO-TOWN. That is a -fact-.

Sorry, but that is an -opinion-.

And I was obviously -exaggerating-.

This conversation is now -ridiculous-.

[DemonHybrid]

It's rather stunning me that this information is so important that all 4 claimed neighbors won't even release the role name.

Can you guys at least tell us why the

name

is so important without telling us the actual name?

[DemonHybrid]

This is absurd. I don't even know how to respond.

[DemonHybrid]

DH and prana are being silly.

Sorry, that was kind of an insult

I nearly lost it after reading these

You need to do a LOT more to insult me, Mr. Jack.

[DemonHybrid]

What is the point of the nameclaim? You guys have said you want the name for flip puposes. That kinda only applies if we are lynching one and thus getting the flip.

Well, I, for one, think that withholding something simple like a strange role name is somewhat anti-town, but I can see why if they have a plan and they have X amount of shots.

I have no clue what Prana's thinking.

[DemonHybrid]

What the hell is going on

[DemonHybrid]

What's so bad about the game on your Facebook page?

Whoa, hello.

Take that to PMs, chief.

[DemonHybrid]

LOL. neighbors with vig shots. Why the heck did you guys claimed?
If you are town you did very bad because the scum may no kill and get a nice little bunch of WIFOM.
This claim is like what scum means.
I believe they are scum running a gambit. Let's kill one of them and see what happens.

unvote vote CKD

Yes, 4 scum have decided to take the ultimate risk and out themselves if one of them gets killed, therefore making the worst play in mafia history. Once again, vezok, you need to twist your head on straight.

Jeez, at least if we're going to kill one, lets kill Pomegranate.

[DemonHybrid]

And like I said in my theory a while back (I hope you've read pretty thoroughly...) that it'd be absolutely bastardly of the mod to make two scum-scum combos and two town-town combos. Town-scum and town-town seems reasonable. Now, which one of those 4 are the most scummy?

Take a look back: here's CKD who's hanging onto the mystery of the shot-count for dear life. Do you think that's scummy, to not give that information over to scum when town doesn't need it now, or townly? He's also pretty brash and proactive this game, provoking those who want to screw up whatever plan he has.

Here's Pomegranate, who's been under the radar, passive in her views and soft-defended by Espy (someone who REALLY should be lynched either now or later). She is also one of the neighbors (who never wanted to be outed, by the way; I've been in plenty of games where scum neighbors did not want to be outed), which gives her just as much of a chance of being scum as CKD does but is more likely due to composure differences.

Now, who do you go for?

[DemonHybrid]

I'm very sure that if one of the neighbors flipped scum, they'd be a "Mafia whatever whatever Neighbor". Also bastardly to keep that flip info from us.

[DemonHybrid]

Here's Pomegranate, who's been under the radar, passive in her views and

soft-defended by Espy

(someone who REALLY should be lynched either now or later). She is also one of the neighbors (who never wanted to be outed, by the way; I've been in plenty of games where scum neighbors did not want to be outed), which gives her just as much of a chance of being scum as CKD does but is more likely due to composure differences.

When exactly did I defend Espy?

And I should have WANTED to out myself?

You misread again...

And you were pretty hesitant after you were outed to confirm based on the composure of your post.

I'll reply to voll later.

[DemonHybrid]

This Jack/Espy fiasco: I felt like Jack was acting too scummy for his own good...a meta check with Jack shows that he likes early-game gambits, hence his talk on the post restriction. Reaction fishing. So I waited and thought about putting pressure on Prana, but I noticed that a LOT of people were starting to fall for his gambit (albeit not voting him quite yet)...so I decided to wait for the one person that actually agreed with Jack and found him town to take advantage of being the "smart guy who knows whats up and looks most town":

I've been consistently saying that I see nothing wrong in the way Jack's playing. The only obvious difference I can see between myself and Espy in this respect is that he called Jack "town" - which I disagree with; I see Jack's play as null. But that doesn't seem to be the crux of your Espy case here.

I mean, call me a metaholic, but at first I found Jack to be null based on past play, but I'm leaning heavily in favor of it being a town vs scum exchange. My read on Jack is based solely off of my read on Espy.

My thoughts on Cooldog and a2 at this point: Somewhat townish...

Why?

He's more of a hunch to me at this point; he's been pretty challenging to scummy views and pretty thirsty for information. I don't really want to focus on him too much for Day 1, but I know that that could very well change in the future.

[DemonHybrid]

Alright, I'm doing some thinking (sorry for the triple post)

As far as the neighbor vigilantes, I do agree we need to learn more about them.

So here's what I propose: Auto-lynch Espy tomorrow, lynch Pom today. Two mis-read statements show nervousness/lack of care in this game among her other traits. I WILL however switch to Espy to hammer if he's L-1...it's not ideal at this point with the claims, but if I have the chance to kill scum, you know that I'd be damn willing to do it. Pom needs more pressure anyway.

Unvote, Vote: Pomegranate

[DemonHybrid]

Here's Pomegranate, who's been under the radar, passive in her views and

soft-defended by Espy

I agree that we should lynch one of the meighbours and that it should be from the second pair. But I think it should be zwet other than Pom. It was unneccessary for him to claim. He could be jumping on to the townieness in which case both are scum or he claimed because he is the scum member of the pair when the town half wouldn't claim in that position unless they were stupid. I hardly think zwet is stupid (yet) and so I think he would be better to lynch than Pom.

Yeah, okay.

I think it was very necessary to claim, especially when they're neighbors and not masons.

[DemonHybrid]

Now this is why I would prefer to lynch zwet. Because the second pair could be running a gambit.

Oh, and this little gem, too.

Uh oh, you made a contradiction!

[DemonHybrid]

If I'm understanding this right, you are meaning a gambit as in two scum running with the idea of vig-neighbors without actually being them. Maybe I assumed that wrong but that's what a gambit means to me if you think -both- of them are in on it.

If you then say that you believe they ARE neighbors and Pom is innocent/zwet is guilty, that's a complete 180 of your past views.

[DemonHybrid]

I'm saying that they COULD be running a gambit and they COULD just be neighbours. But either way zwet is a better lynch infowise for the reasons I stated.

Those are two wildly different views. Throwing them around like this is wishy-washy IMO. How can you be SO sure of Pom being town and believe that they both could be scum running a gambit?

You kinda have to choose one or the other here. Which is it?

[DemonHybrid]

DH or espy is scum. I believe espy is the scum because DH cares about himself more.
unvote
Vote Espy
Although I still want a neighbor flip.

I'm not sure what you mean about "caring about myself" more. Explain further.

[DemonHybrid]

TNM hasn't said a word and zwet is alright in my opinion. I only mentioned CKD vs Pom here because vezok was voting for CKD.

[DemonHybrid]

He claimed and forced Pom to. Other than that, he's had an RVS vote.

He certainly isn't top of the list scummy and until he posts more, I can assume nothing of him. Therefore, he's -alright-.

[DemonHybrid]

He claims when he should have obviously stayed quiet, provided absolutely no content all game, kept his RVS vote on instead of removing it or trying to find reasons for it, and lurks, but he's still -alright-. I'm gonna have to disagree with you there

You know that I'm not putting him at the top of my town list. I just don't think he's the lynch for today. Agree to disagree, no?

[DemonHybrid]

Read this, Pom.

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p2497095

it's not ideal at this point with the claims, but if I have the chance to kill scum, you know that I'd be damn willing to do it. Pom needs more pressure anyway.

I agree with vezok on one thing: That it would probably be wise to see whether or not the neighborvigwhatever claims are truth or not. Now, I think CKD holding onto his shot count is pro-town, but I don't think that letting that information go would really HURT the town that badly. Therefore, I believe the info we can gain by seeing what the big deal is with this role far surpasses the harm that knowing the shot-count will do to us.

Plus, I do have that town-town town-scum theory.

I never said I don't suspect Espy as much; I still suspect him more than anyone else. I, however, believe that you are scum too and that the information that you would give us in your flip as scum would help us out FAR more at this stage in the game than Espy's. You also aren't scummy -just- because Espy defended you. Regardless, I would be voting Espy still if no one had claimed. I will hammer him if he's L-1, because I do want to kill scum, no matter who it is; it won't be

ideal

, but scum is scum.

And yeah, you were hesitant; you outwardly expressed disdain towards Zwet forcing you to claim. I've seen plenty of scum neighbors go "Oh man...well I didn't want to claim, but sure, I'm a neighbor with X." Usually, they're neighborizers or neighbors from the start of the game. Town would want that information out in the open; scum wouldn't.

Don't worry; No OMGUS harping from me. I do want to know what it is about my posts thus far this game, my style and my reasoning that you find scummy if you wish to label me as scummy.

[DemonHybrid]

I want TNM's replacement's thoughts on this whole situation when he/she comes in.

[DemonHybrid]

Yep. Neighbors are a good D1 claim, especially knowing that "neighbors" imply that almost always one or a few of them are scum, therefore you can out them pretty easily.

Read my wiki and look over Soraville; that's a good example of my experience with neighbors.

[DemonHybrid]

EBWOP: Explaining further, if they were all town "Masons", I would completely agree with you, but Neighbors are a

completely

different ballgame.

[DemonHybrid]

Doesn't change the fact that they're neighbors.

[DemonHybrid]

Pom, you're lacking a desire to lynch scum here. That's what's making me so uneasy between our back and forth. If you know that outing neighbors basically narrows scum down to 1 or 2 of four people, then why WOULDN'T you be for it, even

with

vig kills?

[DemonHybrid]

1. Really? So you think that, out of 18 people (and if scum usually comprises of 1/4 people, we'll say 4 and maybe a third party), there could be 4 town neighbors? That would be out of 13ish town. I would assume half of those or at little more than half are VTs, so we'll say 6 VTs to be generous. That leaves 6 power roles. That would mean that 2/3 of these power roles are neighbor vigiliantes. That sounds ridiculous and I'm sure that you'll agree.)

Now, on the flip side, if there are 4 scum neighbor-vigs, that would comprise of all of the scum, or 4/5 if there are 5 scum instead of a third party. That also sounds ridiculous. Same goes for 3 scum: 3/4 of mafia are neighborvigs.

So, it sounds like you're trying to discredit logical thinking to debunk an argument that I have. Or would you agree after seeing the numbers?

2. That wasn't my point. If you know my point 1 of this post is valid and logical, then you'd know that there would be 1-2 scum in these neighborvig combinations. If you out the neighbors, then you have drastically narrowed down where one or two of the scum might be, then you can pick and choose from those 4. You were trying to prevent that and are arguing that it's not such a great idea, therefore it's a lack of desire to lynch scum.

3. Here's an example of that lack of desire to lynch scum. I would think that killing mafia would by far and away trump outing a simple mechanic like a vig shot to most townies. Even if so: you shouldn't have anything to worry about because if mafia chose to kill the town neighborvigs, the chance to find the scum that I mentioned earlier in point 2 would be

drastically

heightened. So why does this bother you so much?

[DemonHybrid]

By the way, the thought of 2 scum gambiting is ridiculous to me just by the way that others have claimed. It would be an astronomically low chance for CKD and TNM to be scum that aren't neighborvigs. The chance to be able to guess that role and have Zwet respond with the same claim is absolutely ludicrously low.

Now, there's a chance of Zwet and Pom gambiting is low, but I'm banking that mostly on Pom's reactions to the claim. Even if so, it would be wise to lynch BOTH Pom and Zwet due to the fact that the chance that they might be gambiting (or at least -lying-) is much higher than Claimed Neighborvigs Team #1 would be. MUCH MUCH higher.

[DemonHybrid]

Oops, gotta fix something:

"That leaves 7 power roles."

[DemonHybrid]

HOWEVER: I'm not saying that there necessarily are no scum within the two pairs of neighborvigs.

I know.

That was something I didn't catch. If that's so, I'm the minority, because I'm a VT myself.

Claim: Vanilla Townie

I'm claiming to put things into perspective here and supplement my math. The better we can categorize these neighborvigs, the higher chance town has to catch scum. So, sorry for those that think I'm fucking things up with the PRs.

So there are at least SOME VTs, if at least 1-3 or 1-4. I'm willing to bank on this being the case, though, since this is a pretty large game (probably one of the largest Sera has modded) and he wouldn't have made that mission without including this as his newest experiment.

I'm willing to back off for now. Going back onto my biggest suspicion.

Unvote, Vote: Espeonage

I would still say that scum is around the 1/4 mark and having 3 or 4 scum is ludicrous. But now the chance of there being all 4 town neighborvigs or 3 town/1 scum neighborvigs just got a whole lot higher. High enough to justify being more careful with the neighbors.

[DemonHybrid]

Here's more of an indication:

2. As a corollary to rule 1, all role PMs, with the exception of the vanilla town PM(if they exist), are unique from a flavor perspective.

"(if they exist)"

I'm willing to believe this new revelation.

[DemonHybrid]

EBWOP: Post #250

I would still say that scum is around the 1/4 mark and having 3 or 4 scum

neighborvigs

is ludicrous. But now the chance of there being all 4 town neighborvigs or 3 town/1 scum neighborvigs just got a whole lot higher. High enough to justify being more careful with the neighbors.

[DemonHybrid]

Wait, what the fuck, CKD? So you aren't a neighbor?

[DemonHybrid]

EBWOP: I think I misunderstood: You ARE a neighbor, but you're not a VIG; you just have a vig-like -ability-.

[DemonHybrid]

Uh....singer?

Is that Nicol posting under SS's screenname?

I hope so.

[DemonHybrid]

I want TNM's replacement's thoughts on this whole situation when he/she comes in.

I hope this is sufficient.

This isn't making any sense.

[DemonHybrid]

This is your only reason for suspecting Pom?

No.

This is a moot point now, but I think that she's being really passive in her views and staying under the radar. However, now that she made the brilliant point about Sera's modding style, I'm letting her go and going for my top suspicion.

How do you think that your claim has been beneficial to the town?

This way, we know that there is -at least- one VT. When it comes down to trying to figure out whether one of the neighbors are scum or not, and we know that there are -some- VTs, we know that the chances of there being all 4 town neighbors are slightly diminished. Therefore, in this case, I'm willing to bet that because there are some VTs in play, that there are 4 town neighbors, or 3 town neighbors/1 scum neighbor.

[DemonHybrid]

Cooldog, if you were asking me a question, you gotta redo your post, man. I can hardly read that.

[DemonHybrid]

Alright, now that singersigner is definitely part of this game:

Terrible use of judgment. I have to agree with CKD, but not deeply enough to vote you for it.

You both feel town still. Just stop failing.

I'm -starting- to lean more towards Zwet now after my back and forth with Pom, but like I said, I want the neighbors left alone for now. Espy lynch or bust today.

[DemonHybrid]

Alright, my thoughts on the two points:

CKD’s 122…*sigh* something like that, yeah. But you failed to mention (several times I might add) that it’s one-shot, so no, scum doesn’t get “extra” help if I die and you are, in fact, part of the scum faction. Dumb ass.

I think it's completely unclear whether or not scum can actually use it, but instead, gives the illusion that they can. Obviously, it'd be a vig ability for them, since they wouldn't CPR a person being attacked by their own faction. If they CAN, then yes, it's extra help.

I disagree, and almost think that CKD is part of the mafia faction because he decided to make that decision on his own. And not reading the Role PM very carefully apparently, since we can only use it ONCE. I think Horror is buddying with CKD on this one…

I don't agree with this. Especially since she misstated it herself. Horror is alright to me at the moment.

As for your questions to me:

a.) that is scummy to misrepresent that and b.) do you feel it was a good move as town to mention the one shot part? Also do you understand/agree with SS's vote on me?

a.) Perhaps -somewhat-, but I think there's enough mindfuckery going on at the moment that someone could be town and legit screw up explaining it or reading it right.
b.) As I've said before, I don't think mentioning the shot-count necessarily hurts town, but I think it is pro-town to try to hold onto that info.

If it REALLY came down to CKD or SS as a fight to the death, 1personisconfirmedscumtheotherisconfirmedtown decision that I had to make, I'd choose SS as the scum, BUT! don't forget the math Pom and I went through to get to where we are now. There's a good chance all neighbors are town, and I'd advise against lynching one right now.

I still think this is town vs town and it's a waste to be against each other at this stage in the game with so much craziness going on. For all we know, I could be the only VT and there could be 4 town neighbors, so until things are narrowed down, I'd leave the situation be for right now.

SS is a girl, by the way. Classify her as such, please.

[DemonHybrid]

Can you both drop this for right now and help us kill Espeonage? You both are misrepresenting stuff at this point and it's just boiled down to pure desire to get the other lynched instead of trying to figure out of they're scum or not.

[DemonHybrid]

I do agree that you used "vig-like" in an awkward way which threw us off track, and you painted SS as full scum right off the bat (as per what she bolded), BUT I don't find any of this scummy. It's just bickering back and forth at this point and it's giving more information for the scum to use during the night kill. Talk about this on a different day. Everyone is out and claimed. There could be one scum or no scum within the 4 neighbors. I suggest we drop it now and focus.

[DemonHybrid]

espy wagon is nothing but laziness

What the hell?

Can you explain this?

[DemonHybrid]

espy wagon is nothing but

laziness

What the hell?

Can you explain this?

Sorry, don't feel like putting in the work right now.

[DemonHybrid]

I'm going to catch up late tonight. One game COMPLETELY sapped my energy and fried my brain last night and today is busy as hell. Sorry.

[DemonHybrid]

It doesn't matter what I do

You're worth a look after Espy gets lynched today.

[DemonHybrid]

I'm conflicted on vezokpiraka.

He ALWAYS does this shit.

[DemonHybrid]

I'm conflicted on vezokpiraka.

He ALWAYS does this shit.

Does he really? Can you show me examples?

Countless. Just check any game he was in....he always gives off scummy tells and throws around suspicion without giving thoughts or opinions or examples. Some of the time, he's scum and some of the time, he's town but he ALWAYS acts like this.

From my personal experience, I can only give examples of ongoing games, so I can't from my perspective, but take a look at his game history and you'll know what I mean.

[DemonHybrid]

Actually, I can give one example from a game we were both in:

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... =1&t=14720 Vanillaside. I was scum this time and he was town, but he pretty much did the same thing all game.

[DemonHybrid]

I didn't know there was a difference, voll, except for the subtleties.

[DemonHybrid]

I don't buy the meta thing on vezok

Uh.....

There was a meta "thing"? I just said that I can't read vezok due to vezok being vezok. Therefore, his back and forth non-specific whatever neither incriminates him nor makes him innocent.

[DemonHybrid]

Understood.

[DemonHybrid]

I'm not.
You'll get my reads day 2.

Oh yeah?

I'll hold you to this.

[DemonHybrid]

A single non-descriptive sentence with no punctuation

[DemonHybrid]

Still looking for Jack's explanation on why Espy's wagon is laziness.

@Mod: Votecount please?

[DemonHybrid]

Just a reminder that the deadline is nearly exactly 3 days from now.

[DemonHybrid]

espy is only a wagon because he started out as one and scum are sticking with it

Aka cooldog

unvote, vote:cooldog

Do you have a case to back up your opinion?

[DemonHybrid]

what I was commenting on was "claiming was a pointless task"..it wasnt...it was only pointless if I didnt expose you. And I know, I know, you keep bringing up that you are town-aligned....if you are scum, you know I am town and I wouldnt lie, so it is safe to say "our claims look alike"....you are not buying creds with me.

I could say the same about you. You're bring in a whole bunch of WIFOM, so sorry if I ignore your stupidity for the time being. Believe me, we're going to need this night to talk/make up for the time I'm now having to defend my idiotic predecessor for, so it's in your best interest to keep me around. If you'd like to continue trying to change my mind, by all means, go ahead.

You two are wasting so much time it's ridiculous.

Stop arguing with each other, lynch someone who isn't a neighbor. Obvious choice for today. Like I said when I claimed and clashed with Pomegranate, it's just not worth assuming that one of the neighbors could be scum to the point of lynch today because the likelihood of 4 town neighbors

IS

there.

[DemonHybrid]

You hush. If it's important for town to hash out what they believe or not, then we're gunna go at it. If you don't think it matters for us to get everything out on the table now for the sake of the town in case something happens (or doesn't happen for that matter) to one of us, but instead wait to know "until tomorrow," that's saying something of your knowledge of the game, is it not?

In any case, you're right about one thing. Lynching a neighbor right now is useless until we can all get more information from what happens during the night, but it doesn't mean we cease to scum hunt accordingly.

The deadline's pretty close, though. I'm pretty sure I have a good hold of mafia knowledge, seeing as how I can get priorities straight. Unlike some people....

I think we've said all we can about the neighbors for today. It'd be fine if any of you actually had a legitimate argument, but it's about the same things and you guys are going in circles. Get your heads on straight. This whole situation is null.

The scummiest neighbor I can think of is zwet, but I'd rather the Espy lynch above all else. The info that we have after night two will be invaluable for narrowing down the neighbors, but unless you have complete concrete proof of someone being scummy, and not "they claimed and it's SUCKY" type of arguments, kindly float back down to reality here, please.

[DemonHybrid]

I've been keeping NC in mind, actually.

I will look at him much closer Day 2 and see how he responds if he's still alive.

[DemonHybrid]

Hey.
Let's lynch CoolDog.
He is probably scum.
unvote vote cooldog.

Wow, look at your reasoning. You're just a straight shooter, unstoppable.

*sigh* You just bring me down every game.

[DemonHybrid]

Nero, you haven't posted in this game for 6 days, then when Jack calls you out, you feel the need to show up?

Voting you after Espy dies.

[DemonHybrid]

THAT'S RIGHT NERO, YOUR DREAMS HAVE BECOME REALITY, MY VOTE ON YOU IS INVALID BECAUSE I MISSPELLED YOUR NAME

BTW I MISSPELLED YOUR NAME BECAUSE YOU'VE BEEN LURKING HARDCORE

AND I HAVEN'T SEEN A POST FROM YOU IN FOREVER

Why me and not NicolBolas?

Because you responded to a vote after a 6 day absence and JUST NOW you tried to deflect suspicion onto another lurker?

What does it matter what Jack thinks of NicolBolas?

[DemonHybrid]

You know, I hate the term OMGUS, but I'm really tempted to use it right now.

You think I'm scum now? So what's your case on me?
What do you think of my claim? I doubt you've read it.

So, your scum list is comprised of 3 people who suspected you/called you out and the biggest wagon of the day as a 4th. How do you explain that?

[DemonHybrid]

How does it confirm that Espy is town and Nero isn't bussing hesitantly?

[DemonHybrid]

This is ridiculous.

Whatever. Espy or Nero, flip a coin. They're both scummy.

Unvote, Vote: Nero Cain

If Espy gets to walk tomorrow and avoid his lynch again, Jack, I swear to fucking god.

[DemonHybrid]

Nero, I don't believe that you are a VT.

VT's are the MINORITY in this game according to that huge discussion Pom and I had. It's pretty evident that you're mafia at this point.

[DemonHybrid]

Nero's at 7 votes, did a quick readthrough.

[DemonHybrid]

Nero, I don't believe that you are a VT.
VT's are the MINORITY in this game according to that huge discussion Pom and I had. It's pretty evident that you're mafia at this point.

That's bullshit. Every game I've played here is VT heavy. In a 18 player game I seriously doubt its power role heavy.

If I come up as VT

you seriously need to be tomorrow's lynch.

You couldn't be more fucking wrong. And illiterate, apparently, since Pom and I had a nice 4 or 5 page discussion on why this game is NOT VT heavy, therefore affecting the neighbors.

Also, yeah, what IF you flip VT?!

Self-vote, please. It'll save us time; I'm excited to know what scum PR you are.

[DemonHybrid]

You guys will make me cry if Espy is not the lynch for tomorrow. Plan your PRs accordingly.

[DemonHybrid]

k

Well, see, it's funny; because you hadn't actually spoken about Nero until your vote on him. You just said something akin to:

"Oh. A wagon, cool.

I'd RATHEEEER lynch Person A.....(kekekeke, see, that makes it look like I care about who gets lynched....)

But hey, let me vote for someone I've never mentioned before because I'm totally going to get saved now!"

So, how about some reasoning for voting Nero like everyone else is doing, instead of being the L-3 obvscum sheep?

[DemonHybrid]

it was a response to the post that said WE HAVE JUST OVER A DAY TO DEADLINE.

I suppose, but do you even find him the least bit scummy? I wouldn't support a lynch of someone who I thought was mostly town, even with the deadline minutes away; I'd rather no-vote. Going with the flow just for the hell of it loses games for town.

[DemonHybrid]

I haven't looked at him. No Lynchs are worse.

No vote =/= no lynch.

So, you're completely admitting voting just because everyone else was, no other reasoning. Gotchya.

[DemonHybrid]

Espy, is reading comprehension just not your thing or...?

[DemonHybrid]

NO LYNCH

is different than

NO VOTE.

You can VOTE for a NO LYNCH

Or you can NO VOTE, meaning you aren't voting for anything.

[DemonHybrid]

But of course, you're scum, so the concept of not voting is foreign to you, I guess.

What DO you think of Nero Cain? Take a quick ISO; he hasn't posted much.

[DemonHybrid]

lol, cooldog is making a case on nero after the hammer. That's a scum move. Hammer post is scummy too.

I would....somewhat agree with this.

Neutral-scummy tell, it's pretty subtle.

[DemonHybrid]

another good bet is that Nero is quite town.

if only the rest of you understood that.

Not that it matter what I think but I still find DH scummy and I'm starting to suspect Pom.

Because she's suspecting you, right?

[DemonHybrid]

I have more of a feeling that all of the neighbors are town.

Do not touch CKD. He is fine. Scum is probably trying to frame him.

Vote: CoolDog

for the justification after the hammer.

Preview edit: Are you gloating, Pom?

[DemonHybrid]

Shot.

You CPR'd him?

[DemonHybrid]

Yep.

[DemonHybrid]

We're at 3 votes... that's L-5. Are we really in danger of a quicklynch?

At the moment: No.
If the wagon continued at it current pace: Yes.

Well, hey, that's a good thing, seeing as how Cooldog is probably scum.

Why are you "ehhhhhhhhhhhhh.........mayyyyyyybeeeee laterrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr ughhhhhhhhhh....cuz.....quicklynch and.....yeh." about this?

[DemonHybrid]

Unvote, Vote: a2rudeboy

This may go into complete mafia game theory territory, but I have never once

once

once

seen someone Vote/HoS two people in the same post and not be scum.

If Cooldog is scum, lynch a2. If a2 is scum, lynch Cooldog.

[DemonHybrid]

So, having equally incredibly strong suspicions on two players after 24pgs is considered scummy now?

Reading comprehension.

Maybe it's just a mafia thing, to not find reading comprehension important.

I'm suspecting you because you Voted someone and HoS'd another in the same post. Classic scum trick. Suspected person is usually the buddy.

And I have a really dreadful feeling that the next 7 pages will be talk of game theory.

[DemonHybrid]

Uhhhhh

From theory to theory?

Yeah...makes sense...

[DemonHybrid]

Pom's been pushing his lynch all day.

Don't get ahead of yourself, zwet.

[DemonHybrid]

Your post is evidence enough.

You have no clue how many times I've seen that happen and have the person flip scum.

[DemonHybrid]

No.

I didn't like Pom gloating. We already know Pom/zwet's roles.

[DemonHybrid]

Good. We were right on Espy. That was a nice shot.

Demon, how is this gloating?? I'm kind of confused, if anything that sounds like your bitter because the mafia dude got shot?

How is it not gloating? She congratulated the killer.

Gloating is either a new players' mistake or a bit of a slip in most cases. However, I'm giving Pom the benefit of the doubt here. Just not really sure why she'd post something like that.

Unvote, Vote: Cooldog

because I'm alright with an a2 or Cooldog lynch. LMP pretty much read my mind.

[DemonHybrid]

No, but there's no need to "congratulate" the people who have done the mafia killing.

Gloating is simply a noob tell or a slight scum tell and I was looking further into it. I really don't know what else to say on the matter and I don't see how me not liking her gloating = me not liking Espy's death.

[DemonHybrid]

You are

padding your response to make yourself look better.

Fixed.

[DemonHybrid]

This is going to sound very scummy, but I can't post for the rest of today. I'll have to get back to answer vollkan tomorrow morning if I can get on at all.

No it doesn't, Mr. Paranoid.

[DemonHybrid]

I was moderately disappointed returning to my living quarters to find Cooldog still amongst the living.

[DemonHybrid]

In response to Prana: Because all he's doing is flailing.

In response to zwet: No.

Because all he's doing is flailing.

[DemonHybrid]

I'm gonna pm the mod, I incorage all to do the same.

He only needs one PM.

Let's not go crazy.

[DemonHybrid]

Who is against me hammering at this point?

I'm not.

He's really diving deep into the WIFOM. Hammer him and get it over with.

[DemonHybrid]

CooLDoG.

mafia is a pretty cool chick

eh hammers scum and doesn't afraid of anything

[DemonHybrid]

and that made no sense

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.p ... cool%20guy

[DemonHybrid]

Similarity in both wagons - Jackscum was huge proponent

I'm going to vote you so hard tomorrow after CD flips scum you're going to feel it.

[DemonHybrid]

Lame attempt to pin suspicion on Jack. His reads aren't the best but he's done almost nothing scummy and I still think Espy vs him was Town vs Scum. He's a bit lurky, but that's Jack being Jack.

[DemonHybrid]

What happens if I flip town guys, better start talking about it befor night time. I'm town, just a heads up.

"Better start falling for my information screw gambit quickly before Sera comes back!"

[DemonHybrid]

Lewarcher and Lewarcher alone.

Well played.

[DemonHybrid]

Alright, I'm doing some thinking (sorry for the triple post)

As far as the neighbor vigilantes, I do agree we need to learn more about them.

So here's what I propose: Auto-lynch Espy tomorrow, lynch Pom today. Two mis-read statements show nervousness/lack of care in this game among her other traits. I WILL however switch to Espy to hammer if he's L-1...it's not ideal at this point with the claims, but if I have the chance to kill scum, you know that I'd be damn willing to do it. Pom needs more pressure anyway.

Unvote, Vote: Pomegranate

So, what's the moral of the story?

DON'T ABANDON YOUR SOLID READS, DEMONHYBRID, YOU IDIOT.

[DemonHybrid]

That was still a terrible shot, CKD. Like, really bad.

[DemonHybrid]

I was back and forth on Pomegranate the whole time I was alive.

Ugh....

[DemonHybrid]

Don't worry, lewarcher, I got your back. 3 scummy noms.

[DemonHybrid]

Pom was scummy.

Yes, she was.

[DemonHybrid]

That botched defib job stung.

Don't fix what ain't broken...