Magician's Mafia: The Hypnotists, Game Over

[Toogeloo]

Vote: animorph

...have you come to win this time?

[Toogeloo]

lol, you may want to change that so they know who you are talking about ^_^. I still can't get over how slow these games are in comparison to B8.

[Toogeloo]

Hey, Angel... remember Rule 4. It may serve you well ^_~.

[Toogeloo]

c'mon, give me a little credit lol.

anyways... I'm still a bit fresh to the site. Only know a handful of people this game.

animorph
Fate
GhostWriter
MPR
Seraphim
vezok

I think that's about it... everyone else, I don't think I've had the pleasure. animorph is the only player on the list I've played with twice I think.

[Toogeloo]

animorph is the only player on the list I've played with twice I think.

Obviously not counting games off site... right Fate?

[Toogeloo]

Hmm... I just read Martyr Magician as the first guy to die since we started at night. If Martyr is a role, I've never heard of it. You make it sound like it's kind of a Lightning Rod for night kills or something.

[Toogeloo]

No, I think the Martyr gets to decide when he uses his role.

I doubt that a person with a role like that would "choose" to use his ability on Night 0. So it might be worth thinking upon who would kill Magna.

[Toogeloo]

Magna's a solid town player. I'd definitely kill him N0.

The real question is who did they hypnotize? Because scum likely hypnotized their second NK choice to kill them off N1. (as they can't hypno twice)

On a related note readin the rules I see this:

11.) Do not use small text, invisible text, spoiler text, etc. All players should be able to read everything you say. As a corollary, do not constantly use CAPS LOCK, large text, colored text, etc. All players should be able to read everything you say without getting a headache.

Uh oh >_>

I didn't see in the rules about the "no hypno twice" thing. As far as the Rule 11, I assume you are uh-ohing because you generally give headaches regardless >_>?

[Toogeloo]

lol... did I ninja you and now you wanna kill me because I quoted you? I've been quoting you all game, so I assume I should die ... alot.

[Toogeloo]

Seraphim, I'm gonna drop kick you.

I've a pretty good memory for text, so I could deal with no quoting.

[Toogeloo]

Unvote
Vote: MPR

Screw the RVS... wagon's ho!

[Toogeloo]

@Antihero & Fate:
I told you they wouldn't know who you were referring to... On another site where I play Mafia, I go by Baku.

Fate is very angry on MS that I have noticed. And I pointed out Rule 4 to him in particular because the one game I played with him here, he got mod-replaced for impersonating the mod.

[Toogeloo]

Fate, how does Seraphim's post (post #53) make you feel?

[Toogeloo]

Don't be so quick to judge Ghost... lots of names on this wagon for sure. I do agree that it may be a bit hasty, especially give that 20% of the players haven't posted yet, not just MPR. I think L-2 is a good place to hold it, to prevent "accidents." When MPR gets in here, we can grill him then. I've only had one game with him myself, and I don't even remember his style, but I do hear people call for his head alot.

unvote

... for now.

[Toogeloo]

As long as people are aware that it's L-1 >_> ... slightly disappointed, but I guess people really hate the guy.

[Toogeloo]

Oh... wait. I see what you did there gandalf ^_^

[Toogeloo]

Why don't you isolate yourself lol

[Toogeloo]

@Ghostwriter:
I assume we would grill him on his participation, or his role, or whatever else people wanna ask him, I mean... he did get to L-1 for absolutely no reason other than him being himself. Either people are going to want to ask him something, or no one is going to care and they will BBQ him (grilled two ways, har har) and live with the consequences.

I don't know the guy well enough, but this is twice now (in two games) where I have seen this guy get slammed about his character and policy lynches being asked of or wagons being formed.


Coming from my own personal commentary on the matter, the wagon is probably more important, though this wagon really sucks because absolutely everyone looked opportunistic. I'd prefer we didn't lynch less than 2-3 days into the first day of the game, especially hardly knowing what MPR's role even is, and even more espeically since Black Mist, Budja, and MPR haven't even posted.



@Fate:
What was your anger response in retaliation to? Animorph claiming the hammer is lynched next, or some other pissy moment? Also, the "no quoting" rule is obviously hard for some people, thoughts?

[Toogeloo]

Oh, hell... I hadn't even realized there was a whole page I didn't read lol... those above were commentary from page 3. Refreshed and failed to notice a page 4 >_>... Possible more comments incoming.

[Toogeloo]

@gandalf:
not sure if you can be classified as town just yet, though I thought you were earlier when you appeared as if you were attempting to "trap" a hammer vote... turns out you were just ignorant I think though.


Fate, you may be in need of some Prozac mate...

[Toogeloo]

One final note... I think that this "no quoting" thing is going to be rather difficult. It's almost second nature, and I have to fight the compulsion myself to not do it sometime.

[Toogeloo]

Mod: Wife is upgrading our computer for my birthday, the system will be out two to three days. Expect me to be on V/LA until Sunday/Monday.

[Toogeloo]

woo! I'm back ^_^
Repair center was quick, so I am back from V/LA early!

Initial thoughts after first reading:
-Gandalf not taking this seriously, but from what I can tell, no attempt to derail is being made (this lynch too easy?). In fact, it seems more likely that gandalf was the derail from the MPR lynch.
-Immediately suspicious of animorph and Anti-hero who have almost completely disappeared, and are probably in need of prods.
-Too many defensive players over small comments, looking at dana and Black Mist to start with, several players also using the "I didn't know the rule," excuse when it comes to quoting which leads me to suspect for not reading.
-The "chat" between Fate and Ellibereth making me nervous as possible scum day talk.
-Day is still young, how serious is everyone with ending day already?


Thoughts after second reading:
-I'm having a hard time seeing Fate as scum, though he does break his own rules. This leads me to disbelieve there is some kind of scum day talk going on between him and Elli, and it's just something they are doing (maybe Masons?).
-There have been some attempts at derailing gandalf that I have noticed now in hindsight; Ghost is coming off really strongly about it while being very "town" in the process, but in actuality, I don't think people are even aware if the game has actually turned serious or not, so any attempts at a derail may not have even been considered yet.



Consider this an "intent to hammer post" gandalf. While I am not 100% sure as most the players on your lynch are, I do think between your wagon and MPRs wagon, something might be analyzable. I do wish for a slightly longer day, but two wagons to L-1 is pretty info holding.

Ghost is making me nervous, but it's probably paranoia. He has been quite vocal about the two main wagons so far, and may be attempting to come off town in appearance while hiding the fact that he actually knows something. Willing to give him a little slack because of his behavior, but definitely worth keeping an eye on him.

@mod: requesting prods of animorph and Antihero.

Lurkers make me very nervous, town tends to implode with them.

Also suspicious of Black Mist and dana. I really don't like the defensive nature of their posts as if they feel they don't deserve suspicion. It's day 1, everyone deserves suspicion; to combat it, look more pro-town and scum hunt.


I did mention that I had intent to hammer gandalf, Fate seems to want Ghost to do so. Not a good idea to direct us, telling Ghost to hammer is a way of giving him a pass to do something. Regardless of what happens from gandalf's lynch would likely not come back around Ghost in any way if he were to hammer because he was directed to. If gandalf is scum, Ghost won't get credit for the hammer, and if gandalf is town, Ghost won't get scrutiny for being the hammer.

Of the two inactives, animorph is probably the most suspicious because he seems to have ducked out after making the comment of who gets lynched tomorrow. It comes off to me that MPR could be town, ani knows it, and was trying to direct tomorrow's activity.



That's about all I got so far... sorry it ended up being a bit of a ramble. My thoughts typically do that >_<.

[Toogeloo]

Sorry for the WoT... being away for a few days tends to come back as a WoT since I like to get all my thoughts out >_>

[Toogeloo]

The claim bugs me. Why would you bait people to pressure for your hammer/claim, and then come out, "well, I'm useless now," it doesn't make sense to me. I would almost think you would want to be baited to be hypnotized, instead you didn't care whether you were going to have to claim or not and were prepared to just give your role up.

On top of this, you could simply run with a claim in the coming days, "zomg, I was hypnotized last night, I am so town!"

To me it just doesn't add up. Anyone have other thoughts, or am I just being paranoid?

[Toogeloo]

MPR thinks I'm actively lurkey... /sadpanda

I do agree with Kat in a sense that I want to see more activity before a hammer is drawn. I think gandalf shot himself in the foot with the claim, so I would not be opposed to hammering, but I do want to at least see how the conversation fetters for the next couple days first. Rest assured Fate, I will hammer if the game looks to be stagnating.

I have a few thoughts, but much of it has been stated by others in the time since my last post, and I don't know if I want to add fuel to a new fire just yet. I think it's better to let scum work for their own mislynch as we might be able to catch them in the act.

[Toogeloo]

I can link them to the Fettbox though if you want Fate ^_^

[Toogeloo]

KotOR Mafia is his first game I can recall... it's a good read heh.

But I will give him credit, he did get me as scum in Stargate Mafia.

[Toogeloo]

Yeah, ok... it's been pretty quiet all day. MS games seem to stagnate like this every once in a while, it's kind of annoying.

Vote: gandalf

[Toogeloo]

Fate, I figured it out because you told me I do remember you on B8 when Spyro started after I posted your contact info. Plus you gave me plenty of clues after Traffic ended lol.

[Toogeloo]

His avatar cracks me up though... I have found myself mesmerized by it.... oh no!! He is a hypnotist!

[Toogeloo]

It's a tire...

[Toogeloo]

wait... wasn't the last thing you said Kat (like 10 posts up), that Fate was scum? Or was that contingent on gandalf's flip (which wouldn't make sense to me tbh).

[Toogeloo]

So anyways... something that has been bothering me is the way Seraphim brushed off analyzing Magna's death on the first page stating that he think Magna martyred the Night 0 kill, but also states he would do it voluntarily (since Martyrs have the choice). Why would someone who can voluntarily take the hit for another player, do it on Night 0 with no information at all? Could it be more likely that Magna was actually the choice kill and Seraphim found an opportunity to make it appear as if the kill couldn't be analyzed?

Making matters worse, he was fully amiable to switching to any wagon with out an argument. He started by wanting to get on vezok, but then switched to MPR because it was a follow the Fate thing, then quickly switched to me because I ninja quoted. Then back to MPR, then to gandalf... all with little to no refute at all, and he barely did any conversation outside these events.

The icing on the cake was him popping in at the end of day looking like he was trying to avoid a prod >_>.

Seraphim is probably my number one suspicion at the moment, but I also don't like ani and his complete absence from anything post the MPR wagon. He didn't even pop in at all during the gandalf event.

Gonna start here with Seraphim though.

Vote: Seraphim

PEDIT: my mistake then if I misinterpreted it.

[Toogeloo]

So wait, he is actively posting on the forums, just not the games? Is that grounds for maybe replacing him or something? At least it's a null tell on his alignment, so no point in pursuing it at the moment.

[Toogeloo]

You guys can go ahead and lynch me now, I don't really care. I can't make heads or tails of this game. It may be because there doesn't seem to be alot reasoning behind votes or because I'm being called a him/he when I'm a her/she. Just for the record, Í'm not scum, nor do I have any roles. Lynch me because of my claim, I've done nothing to gain any of your trust to began with anyhow. But I don't really see how the votes were placed on day one, most of them seemed to be random based on meta to me.

Is this just a huge appeal to emotion? If you aren't feeling the game, wouldn't you have chosen to replace instead of make that emotional post?

[Toogeloo]

god dammit, freaking hard rule to remember when it's second nature.

[Toogeloo]

If you are expecting a Mist vote, I won't be pressured thank you. I hate appeals to emotion because I am guilty of them too. I'm trying to make sense of it. I still don't like Seraphim, especially given he popped in here AGAIN with a fluff post about activity.

[Toogeloo]

Besides Elli, what do you intend to accomplish voting someone who is asking to be lynched? Isn't that just a scapegoat to get through another day with minimal activity?

[Toogeloo]

dana, I had every intention of hammering gandalf for 3 pages prior. I didn't need an excuse, and I gave Fate the 3 pages he wanted. If you wanna try and nit pick scummy behavior, how about some of the opportunistic votes in there, including your own. Yep, I hammered a townie. Do I regret it, a little, but from my point of view the way he led up to his claim made no sense at all. I gave the town their 3 pages of discussion and then hammered.

If you want to go toe to toe with me on the appearance of a vote, how about you tiptoeing around not wanting to put gandalf at L-1, and then asking if you should vote (and doing it anyways), like you needed permission... looks like an excuse to vote to me, somewhat opportunistically. I love how you throw a meager defense at it to, "Why does everyone think I'm scumy, boo hoo." Eventually you disappear, the day slows down, and I hammer.


I'm more interested in the players that were both in it to ride the lynch, and analysis of both wagons. I think it's more likely that scum hitched a ride on something easy, which makes your vote for MPR also pretty opportunistic. So please, enlighten me on my scummy hammer and let's see who wins this war on voting pattern.

[Toogeloo]

Too quiet.

You want a scummy vote from me? Here ya go dana.

Unvote
Vote: dana

I trust some of the players on this lynch, and I think a wagon is just what we need at the moment.

[Toogeloo]

(Gets ready for the "OMGUS Countervote" excuse)

[Toogeloo]

Ghost, MPR, Toogs, Anti, Raz ... that's dana's current wagon, which means he is at L-2.

The speed of which dana gained votes at the end was a little disconcerting, but if dana is scum, I am more inclined to trust it. However, we already had a fast Day 1, I would rather not have a faster Day 2. Should dana claim? Absolutely, but I would also like more pressure on Seraphim today as I actually find his activity more scummy. There is a possibility that dana voted me to protect Seraphim I think, which makes me feel better about both being good overall suspicions.

Ghost, how do you feel about the 4 others on the wagon (including myself if you don't mind), and how do you think we should proceed (ie, get him to L-1 and force claim, contemplate lynch, or maybe pressure a second individual and compare)? I'm of the latter personally, though, it seems most players on MS (not my primary mafia site) prefer to keep their claims tight vested.


The sincerity of Black Mist's post feels odd to me. She is a member since 2008, obviously this can't be her first rodeo.

[Toogeloo]

Also, still awaiting Rockerboo comments, and if ani can't play, I would prefer a replace on him.

[Toogeloo]

Is there any reason Raz would fake a Miller claim on Day 2? He looks awful, but I also notice he has a relatively new join date and his wiki says he is 13 years old. What benefit is there to a claim of Miller on Day 2 without a scan against you?

The speed of this lynch was VERY quick, and I might point out that there has been no word from vezok, ani, or Rockerboo still. I'm getting that vibe where Raz might be Village Idiot and a lynch is being rushed to end the day with little conversation, especially from inactives.

I mean seriously, look at Seraphim who I can only assume is lurking this game. Conversations were on dana and Black Mist for all of half a page, and now forgotten. Please do not end the day any time soon, even if Raz is the kill, all we are doing is giving lurkers more lurker power.

[Toogeloo]

Also, of the games I have played on MS, every time a Miller has claimed on Day 1, the player actually ended up flipping Scum. So, I understand the reasoning behind claiming Miller on Day 1 (don't waste a Cop's time), it's still massive WIFOM either way. Animorph for example did it in Traffic (Seraphim, Fate, and I were in that game), where he claimed Miller in like the second post of the game. He was Mafia Goon.

[Toogeloo]

quotes...


Anywho, I agree with your sentiment on Millers, Elli, though this seems to be a different case. Raz had the Miller claim more or less spilled from him on Day 2 without a scan.

PEDIT: Rockerboo hasn't posted at all since he was announced as a replacement. No one else pops out at me though.

[Toogeloo]

I don't have many games on this site, but it seems like there are a fair amount of activity issues here >_>

[Toogeloo]

MPR... subtracting the inactives, we barely have enough players to even cover a lynch today. Plus, we have only heard maybe 5 voices worth of content for the entire day.

[Toogeloo]

I don't like how quiet it is to be honest. This is pretty ridiculous. There are still 9 capable voices in this game that can at least talk about other suspicions. I'm getting that vibe where people are just riding out a lynch and keeping their head down.

[Toogeloo]

EBWOP: technically there are more than 9, I'm just assuming that Rocker, Sera, ani, and vezok aren't coming at this point.

[Toogeloo]

We have had literally 6 people (less than half the game) post in the last 48 hours.

I think the Raz lynch is more or less a foregone conclusion at this point because when games stagnate like this, it becomes a "just throw your arms up" moment.


If Raz is town, I highly doubt all 4 of the non-participants of the day are scum (I really think Seraphim is lurking this out and is scum himself). If Raz is scum, again, I don't think the rest of the team is just riding it out. People who earlier had suspicion have disappeared (eg Black Mist). Scum hunting becomes a matter of who is worst lurker.

I probably would put my vote back on Seraphim since he is my strongest gut at the moment, but I have a feeling my vote is going to be needed to finish off Raz (though we could probably let this ride to deadline and just majority majority him >_>).


I try to post at least once (usually more) a day, but I feel like I'm talking to myself half the time.

[Toogeloo]

I haven't seen a post by Rockerboo at all either PJ, would you check on him please.

[Toogeloo]

@Antihero:
Right from the get go, Seraphim wanted us to discount Magna's death without analysis stating that Magna likely Martyred himself Night 0. This makes no sense what so ever why someone would Martyr themselves on a Night Kill on a Night with no information at all. Him trying to remove Magna analysis was disconcerting. Following that, he hopped on every train that presented itself (including a brief wagon on me for quoting on Page 2 after Ani was on me). He then proceeds to disappear from the game entirely during each wagon, and makes fluff posts that he is here, but does nothing with them. Day 2, he stated he was catching up, and no post ever followed.

[Toogeloo]

Ugh...

Unvote
Vote: Raz

Pretty obvious no one wants to do anything today.

[Toogeloo]

Raz is either a complete idiot or WIFOMing the hell out of us ...

[Toogeloo]

Pssst...

10.)

If you notice there has been a lynch, stop posting.

[Toogeloo]

Slow day. Sorry I wasn't around to post anything yesterday.

There is a large group of players who haven't posted in a long time (or at all). This includes: Black Mist, Seraphim, Rockerboo, and Cogito, and I really think we need to hear from these players today.


My case on Seraphim still stands, though dana could easily go as well. dana argues that Raz is the lynch he pursued, but to be honest, Raz was looking bad since day 1, and Ghost actually brought up the possibility of lynching him yesterday. I think dana was just the first vote on him in a series of massive wagoning, and it's possible he was just countering his scumbuddy to look better. Everyone that was on dana was on Raz, and bussing a scum buddy does tend to make you look townier, but dana overall exudes a bad vibe. The "null-tell" *ahem* comment is easily WIFOMable, just as much as Raz's final comment about his team "bussing him so hard." I don't like that dana disappeared the ENTIRE day after the Raz wagon started (with one post for activity sake), and then popped in and made that comment.

In my opinion, I think at least 1 scum was on Raz (leaning dana for sure), maybe 2, but with as much inactivity there was yesterday, and at least a quarter of the player base not even playing, I would wager that predominant cast of that lynch was town.

Overall, I would be down for Seraphim or dana today, but not until we actually get a day with some back and forth going.

[Toogeloo]

IN RESPONSE TO TASKY

(all your problems with me answered with why I posted them)

Toogeloo 341: the first paragraph is total bullshit. the rest of the case on Seraphim is solid, but he hasn't done anything REALLY scummy. I'd really like to hear a defense though and do agree that he is the worst lurker.

-Your point of view I guess. Did you not see how Seraphim stated that the Martyr wasn't worth analyzing, and then later said that a Martyr can choose when to sacrifice himself? I've personally never heard of the role, but what kind of martyr takes the bullet for a town on Night 0? I do not believe at all that Magna was martyred and instead think he was chosen to be killed, therefore I detest anyone who tells me not to analyze a kill at night for it.

Toogeloo 370: Well, technically it's OMGUS. And I absolutely do not like the "Too quite" - line.

-I have been saying "too quiet", "slow day", and other "I wish activity would pick up" slogans all game. I come from a site where game days are 48 hours and nights are 24 hours. I am still relatively new on this site, and I get antsy for activity. I wear my heart on my sleeve when it comes to content (and lack of it pisses me off since I am more analytical than gutsy), so I post things like that to let people know, in a not-so-subtle way that I despise the pace.

As for the OMGUS, I blatantly did that on purpose, or did you not pick that up? I figured dana was fishing for a reason to vote me, and I didn't like it. He stated my hammer was a scummy vote when in fact it should not have been. I told him his vote was scummy, and returned the favor.

Toogeloo 379: This post does not feel right at all. First I think it's scummy in general to talk to someone else as if they were an authority. It's definitely a form of buddying. Also I find your early claim-fish scummy here.

-The intent of the post was to get some conversation going. Out of every one in the game, I lean town on GW the most, I specifically asked his opinion because of this. This game is a team game, even for us uninformed majority. A little trust needs to be used from time to time, but blindly following or sheeping should not be tolerated.

Toogeloo 419: Trying to save your buddy? I totally do not understand how you can really believe what you said. considering you also brought evidence

against

your own point in the post after. scum-points for you, dude.

-I have never been a Miller in my entire career of Mafia, but I have seen several people claim Miller. More games than not, a day 1 Miller claim has been scum in my games played. Two times have I seen a Day 1 Miller claim be Miller, and one was when they countered another Miller claim on Day 1. I am sure there have been a lot games where Day 1 Miller claims have been Millers, but I have not partook in any of them, and on the site I predominantly played prior, Millers generally try to act as pro-town as possible and avoid being scanned at all.

My confusion was the claim itself. No one claimed a scan on him, Raz could have simply claimed Vanilla, so why claim Miller? I was not expecting the claim from him, so I was undoubtedly confused at the tactic. I was trying to consider various reasons behind the claim since it struck me as a left field type of play. I even said he was looked awful, but I was WIFOMing myself into thinking he could have just been an idiot.

Toogeloo 450: It starts to really get scummy how much you focus on lurkers.

-I really hate lurkers, of all my losses, lurkers are the predominant factor. Many times, they are scum letting town pick themselves apart, other times they are town making it easier for scum to manipulate the actives. The length of days plays a big factor I think... again, this stems from my other mafia site experience from faster days. And again, this is just me wearing my heart on my sleeve since it pisses me off and is in every game I play.

Toogeloo 454: The third paragraph is really scummy. You are contradicting yourself badly. on one side you say we should hunt for the worst lurker, on the other side you think there is scum to be found in the active players.

-It's both. I don't believe all the scum are on one side or the other. Raz flipping scum makes it fairly obvious that at least one scum was trying to be active, but someone could have been bussing him. At the time I posted it, I was thinking of a likely 4 scum team, 2 were probably active, and 2 were probably lurking or inactive. Since we have a large degree of lurkers, I posted we may need to look into who is the worst lurker (and quite ironically, you stated Seraphim was the worst lurker in your own analysis).

Toogeloo 459: That seraphim-martyr-story is just nonsense, why don't you just drop it?

-Probably because I am semi-tunneled on him, and since he doesn't deliver anything else to work with, it remains part of my view of his character.

Conclusion:
I think dana is playing bad. I actually don't think he is so confirmed scum as someone pretends him to be. However, I DO think that Toogeloo is scum. The evidence I showed is slim, I know, but I think it is absolutely not to dismiss. additionally something about him just doesn't add up; call it a feeling but I really do not get a town-read from him.
Also I do not Ellibereth as so confirmed town as you all seem to do. He started the "sheep me or die"-attitude in a Fate-ish manner but it somehow felt forced to me, especially as he hasn't really been consequent about it. I have no real reasons for believing him to be scum, but I also have absolutely no town-reads from him.

So in the end of all this long post, you DO think I am scum, and yet you didn't vote me. Are you waiting for someone else to start a wagon hoping you may have ignited something?

[Toogeloo]

I think what I hate about slow days versus 48 hour days is that I always want to F5 and see if anyone responds to me on a slow day and it never happens, where as in a 48 hour day, I can make a post and get about a half dozen responses within a few minutes.

48 hour game days are not uncommon to have over 4000 posts in a single game lol.


Also,

it has now been over 48 hours since day start... requesting prods please.

[Toogeloo]

Didn't GhostWriter unvote sometime back?

And Rockerboo hasn't posted at all the entire game, did he even confirm that he was going to play?

I'm trying to bite my tongue because I want more people to post (don't understand why people think they can stop in, place a vote, and never post again, and I won't mention lurkers [oh, whoops...]), but I also want Tasky back here so I can hear more of his theories. After that big ass post, I thought for sure he would come back swinging at me.

[Toogeloo]

EBWOP: some time back being last page, lolactivity.

[Toogeloo]

Being anti-town, but town, doesn't mean you are a bad player. It means you just aren't operating in town's best interests all the time, and if you are doing it on purpose, you could have motivations behind it. In this particular case, I actually don't see the justifications of him calling you anti-town though. I would say Tasky is more spot on in just calling you a bad player if you are town. Anti-town would be something like Cogito, who has said all of one word that wasn't a vote the entire game, or MPR who just jumps around votes with no content.

I also got the feeling Tasky's intro post makes him look town, even if he had some pretty bad reads in there and mis-represented some comments. Even after I explained my comments, he apologized to one or two, and shrugged off the other opinions as if it makes me a bad player, and then still voted me over it.

All three inactives prior (some now replaced) have come in swinging in different directions, which is good (sort of). Cogito fired off at Black Mist, Tasky is coming after me, Budja is voting Anti. It's good because we can gauge reactions, and the votes themselves, but I think all 3 of them are bad in various reasons as well.

Of those votes:

-Cogito gave no reason at all on his vote for Black Mist, and as of yet, we have had no content at all from him, but he did vote hop over to dana.
-Tasky is wrong, but hey it's me he's voting... and I think at least 3 people have stated that they have been misrepresented, including myself (he even apologized about one of his reads on me).
-Budja is (I think) voting on gut, as he provided no other reason to his vote.


I think we are still missing content from Seraphim and Black Mist of our inactives, but we now have new inactives that haven't posted in a good chunk of time.

My suspect list (of the actives) is currently:
dana (for bad play)
Cogito (for anti-town)

if we suddenly believe dana to be town, then one of Kat or MPR should be looked at.

Inactives, I still do not trust Seraphim or Black Mist.

[Toogeloo]

-> well, acting antitown isn't optimal play if you are town.

I never said it was optimal, I said it happens, and sometimes players have motivations for doing so.

-> Why do think I am town? What about my intro-post was so townish, considering I "misrepresented at least 3 people"

I said you "looked" town. I never declared you town.

-> What exactly is you case on Cogito?

Look at his play... do I need a case? Do you believe he is playing "optimally?"

-> Do YOU believe Dana is town? or are you just sheeping the masses? I yes, what made you change your mind?

I thought Dana was scum on Day 2, and came into Day 3 retaining that opinion. I am not sheeping the masses since I have stated quite blatantly that I would prefer to vote for Seraphim, but I cant in good conscious vote him without more content from him, especially since only a handful of players were interested yesterday. Dana would be a good alternative, but as of lately I have been torn on him and the way Katsuki and MPR are pushing for his lynch. Cogito hopping on doesn't improve his image for me either. Cogito felt like he was forced to vote for dana, and avoided it via the Black Mist vote. I think if dana is scum, Cogito probably is as well. If dana is town, then Kat or MPR (and possibly still Cogito) are all suspicious.

==> I'll stick with my vote on Toogeloo. your post hasn't made anything at all that I would consider townish.

So, who's tunneling now, hmm? I will accept an apology from you soon enough.

[Toogeloo]

Tasky:

-Anti-town players are unreadable, or post in a way that they are trying to avoid attention or frustrate other players. I'm not disagreeing with you on whether or not it's optimal, but anti-town does not specifically correlate to bad town. Is it not agood tactic to be anti-town, draw a wagon, and then turn around and analyze everyone attached to your wagon? Maybe someone being anti-town might put another player on tilt that causes them to lose control of emotion and post things they wouldn't normally do.

Anti-town =/= bad town. No where did I ever say anti-town is the optimal way to play. Hell, if I believed that, I wouldn't be posting every day.


-You "look" town because your first real post of the game is a wall of text with isolations on 4 or 5 players. Hell, even Elli said she wasn't going to read it and just called you town on the spot. I think the amount of effort you went through makes you appear town, and not someone I would want to target for the day. That doesn't give you a pass through the game, but at least you put more effort into the game thus far than Cogito who came in the same time you did, so I am willing to look at you in a town light for right now.

-And yeah, it is a bit tunneling, not that I

really

care.

[Toogeloo]

Tasky's been having trouble reading between the lines I think. I see what everyone's on about, and personally, I think that dana should go regardless at this point.

Mod: Requesting replacement for Black Mist, has she posted at all since beginning of Day 2?

Vote: dana

[Toogeloo]

Bring it up with me on the next game day Tasky. Rule 10.

[Toogeloo]

@Tasky:
I thought dana was scum at the beginning of Day 3 since the whole Day 2 ended entirely WIFOMy. Kat swung in in post #547 stating in such a way that it appeared he had a scan or some information. Look at the way the day flowed after that post. Elli and Budja both didn't think dana was scum, but they were swayed by Kat's statement. I said "regardless" because I saw the statement as well, but whether I believed Kat had a scan or not didn't sway my opinion that dana should have been the lynch of the day after that end of Day 2. Kat throws a final statement in at the end of the day that completely shoots his conviction and credibility to shit, but the sentiment he said is basically how I was feeling most the day based on the WIFOM he presented, and the way dana was attacked both Day 2 and Day 3 (and somewhat Day 1).


Anti could be a good possibility today I think. Budja died last night after having some conviction for lynching Anti yesterday, could be he died for it. Ghost also pointed out some shady behavior from Anti on Day 2.

DGB didn't alleviate any suspicions I had for Seraphim, so I would push for some pressure there as well. Day 3's biggest name, in my opinion, is Kat though. He had so much conviction that it looked as if he were selling us a scan, he even got Budja and Elli to switch their votes even after they said they thought dana was town. Then at the end, he lost that conviction and sounded more as if he wanted to analyze the flip, and really wasn't in a place where people should have trusted him.

CES continues to be anti-town posting his no content posts, so he shouldn't escape today unscathed I think either. Finally, MPR seems to have dropped off the suspicion radar, and shouldn't be let off the hook for sheeping since Day 2 started.


Interesting that CES votes you SpyreX btw. He wanted Black Mist (the person you replaced) dead at the beginning of Day 3 as well before switching over to dana. I would very much like CES to actually post some content and explain himself. I at least explained my disdain for Seraphim.


I would prefer not to let Kat get by without explaining himself, but I also want Anti to become more present. There are probably 5 people I wouldn't mind pressuring today (those 2 already mentioned, and the anti-town behavior coming from CES, MPR, and DGB [plus my previous distaste for Seraphim relating DGB]), for now though I will go with the one of two votes I like better.

Vote: Anti

My primary question now would be, are we looking at 4 scum or 5 possible? The game states in the special rules that only the Hypnotists being the only faction against the town, and on the nights of kills, only 1 death has occured. If we are looking at 3 strikes style setup, we could be in MyLo at the moment if the game started with 5 scum, right? Or is it more likely that the game only has 4 scum (3 seems too little, 6 game would be over)?

[Toogeloo]

Reading failure in this topic.


@Tasky
You said:

Re: Toogeloo 587, yeah, you are scum.
why exactly are you voting Anti? Why aren't you voting Katsuki?
what would you do if I claimed cop with a guilty on you?

-and-

Re: Ellibereth 572/Toogeloo 573, NOW TELL ME, WHAT WAS THERE BETWEEN THE LINES THAT I MISSED?

First of all, you linked 587 where I specifically stated in my post what I saw in between the lines, what Katsuki had posted, and what got Elli and Budja to switch their votes.

Secondly, I could vote for any one of my suspicions today, but some people are more vocal than others and don't require a vote to instigate information. A wagon on a lurker felt better to me, especially given my points and SpyreX's analysis combined. Between the two votes already cast when I posted, I agreed more with voting for Anti.

Finally, I doubt very seriously you have any kind of scan on me, and it is more likely you are using it as a bully tactic to get more votes on me when you have nothing at all.


@Anti
You said:

Now, panda, what happened to your Seraphim "case"? Did you see that DGB wasn't going to be as easy of target so you backed off? You were promoting it for a while, and now you come out with this random vote against me (with not much substantiation). You just trying to go with the flow and jump on what you think might be the most popular wagon...again?

You are hardly a popular wagon, you have two votes at the moment, which is double what you had in any day prior excluding RVS. And if I had 5 votes, I would be spreading them about, but I have one, and on Day 4, I think a wagon is more informative than vote spreading. Scum can very easily manipulate votes that are spread about as the town numbers are reduced since they have more control. I prefer to keep the votes tight at this point. It allows us to focus the attack, analyze the pressure, and change direction if necessary.

DGB/Seraphim has always been my case, but I will not pursue a course of solo play against the best interests of my team as a whole. I have no problems placing my vote where I think it needs to be, and everyone should know my feelings on DGB/Seraphim at this point anyways. You pushing that particular point against me looks more desperate OMGUS than any kind of rebuttal towards your defense. Claiming I am latching on to the popular wagon wins you no favors either considering you haven't hunted anything yourself the entire game that I can see, and your votes have been on popular wagons themselves.

[Toogeloo]

The problem, Tasky, is you used a hypothetical question on me, and this latest post is you reaching trying to misrepresent what I said because I didn't say it specifically to your liking. I flat out told you that you are using this hypothetical situation to more than likely garner votes on me. It's not going to work, and you are going to look very, very, stupid in the end. Why do I have to call you scum when I know for fact that this is just a tactic you are using (because you have nothing else), and you are simply tunneling on me? I have no interest in calling you out for being stupid, and your gambit is not going to work.

[Toogeloo]

Could be... then again the first 3 or last 3 words of "Does anyone else think" could be too >_>

[Toogeloo]

@Anti: I would assume process of elimination. Why don't you ask SpyreX why he thinks you are scum from his massive post? Why do I need to tell you why SpyreX thinks you are scum? I came up reasons of my own in my own posts, and just nodded in agreement with SpyreX's analysis that voting you was the best start for the day.

[Toogeloo]

I'm just going to nip this in the bud right now.

I am the

Magician-Of-All-Tricks

. I have/had 3 abilities, 2 of which are already used, an alignment scan (described as reading a player's mind), a protection (decribed as making them disappear), and a roleblock (desribed as locking them in a box).


-Night 0, I didn't take any action. I felt there was nothing to go off of, so no point in wasting an ability.
-Night 1, I scanned Ghost (

Magician

). His day one behavior seemed to be distancing himself from every lynch, and I suspected he may have known that gandalf was town and was trying to improve his image.

---This is why I have trusted Ghost since Day 2 and on.
---This is also why I heavily doubt Tasky has any kind of scanning power, and I wasn't buying Kat on Day 3, but still felt that dana was the proper lynch after the WIFOM of Day 2.

-Night 2, I protected Ghost. I won't say for sure that I stopped the kill, but after Day 2, I felt Ghost was bleeding town vibes, especially since I already knew he was town at that point, and after feeling like I got reamed for not protecting Fate on Night 1, I didn't want to feel like I could screw up again.

I still have my Roleblock, and I will probably have to use it tonight at this point.


I would have preferred not to have claimed until all my abilities were used, but I think DGB and Anti may both be scum trying to get a mislynch on me. Anti is voting me solely due to OMGUS. He has no case against me other than my vote on him. DGB I think is just painting me in a bad light because I must be obvscum for being on every lynch and hammering twice. I don't think Tasky is scum, he seems to zealous in his pursuit against me that I think he has turned to tunneling.

[Toogeloo]

Weren't you feeling town on Anti just prior to my claim DGB? Now he is second on your hit-list. Also, you have been calling CES scum all day, and he is last on your hit list. I am confused.

[Toogeloo]

I am quite literally down for a DGB lynch today at this point >_>. Only thing holding me back from voting is that I don't think we need 5 different people with votes at this point.

He continually quotes people, his analysis is completely based on votes and not behavior which isn't even an accurate analysis considering a good chunk of players have been replaced. Hell, there could have been more bad votes had the replacees been more active. So the fact that people were gone most days shouldn't clear them in any way on the DGB-lynch-o-meter.

I swear he is inconsistent with his judgements as well. Seraphim was just the same when he was playing, and all it's doing is adding confusion. His vote now convolutes the day even more.

[Toogeloo]

I do suck at the gender thing, that is true.

[Toogeloo]

loltaskyquote... seriously, quoting is just getting funny now.

I kind of expected more from Tasky in his first post in over 2 days too.


I don't understand the faith you put into DGB, or how Kat is now no longer a suspicion of your SpyreX, but I do agree with the other 3 names listed.

[Toogeloo]

Didn't Ghost vote for CES? Activity is terrible .

[Toogeloo]

Man, the end of day was awesome. High Five SpyreX. Not only did we get Anti, but Kat more or less outed himself with that blatant fishing attempt. MPR had no reason to counter claim, not with Anti at L-1, in fact he was suspected so much that he could have probably made it to end game and eventually had the whole scum team pegged. But we got this. Kat's fishing attempt for results makes him look awful, and let's not forget his less than stellar performance thus far.

As for me, I didn't use my Roleblock last night. I was hoping that I might be able to skate by without blowing it just yet.

Vote: Katsuki

[Toogeloo]

Right after Anti hammered himself, you went "oho, this is interesting," followed by requesting track results from MPR, but MPR had just stated he had not followed anyone to a kill, which leads me to believe you only wanted the results to see if you or your partner needed to come up with Power Fake Claims.

[Toogeloo]

My guess is that quoting is for superfluous actions, like roleblocking or scanning or what ever scum may have. The quoting specifically mentions extra actions which seem to stand above and beyond the standard night kill. It's possible scum have extra actions, but they can't just make a habit of quoting every single game day, they need to be more sly than that. Most of us are habitual quoters as well, which makes it easier for scum to slip in a quote now and again. I would pay more particular notice to the fact that there were 5 quotes on Day 4 (more than the other days), the day that two power roles exposed themselves, than the fact that there are less quotes previous, and Anti (known scum) quoted me in particular which is somewhat worrying. Raz also quoted MPR on Day 2.

Now, the next question would be whether it is important that the quoter live or not. Raz and Anti both died the days they were lynched, but does it matter and the scum team use those quotes anyways, or would it only be important for them in particular? The Master sounds like it could have been power, and Sosuke Aizen was named similar to gandalf which could possibly be a similar psychic style role that knows if he is targeted? Too much guess work I think. It's more important that we just don't quote at all, as we should have been doing the entire game.


@SpyreX, like I mentioned in my first post, I actually saved my RB. I think after today I will have a clearer idea who to use it on.


P.S. Happy Scumday CES.

[Toogeloo]

EBWOP: "Raz and Anti both died the days they were lynched" should read, "Ranz and Anti both quoted the days they were lynched."

[Toogeloo]

I don't put much stock into people who didn't notice rules, especially not this late into the game. Let's not forget Razgriz (known scum) stated this in ISO#30:

Wait quote rule? Ah fuck. I really hate when you forget player-made rules

Not enough for me to flip out on you over, but you are on the short list of players.

[Toogeloo]

Personally, I brushed off their banter. A few of the players on this site seem to have some kind of buddy-buddy relationship, and to me that's kind of how it came off. Similar to Elli's code speak with Fate on Day 1, or the vibe I was getting from SpyreX's and DGB's back and forth yesterday. I think it's more meta than anything to try and read into it, and behavior should remain our primary analysis.

[Toogeloo]

Are we just going through the motions here? The people suspected are the ones not really talking, so it seems to me either they are rolling over, or they are trying not to incriminate themselves any further.

[Toogeloo]

Going through the motions to me means it's the general consensus that scum is in a narrow group of players, and all we are doing is trying to figure out which one should go first.

[Toogeloo]

what narrow group of players do you think scum is in?

@Tasky
I thought the remaining scum was pretty much in this 4-some:
CES
DGB
Elli
Kat


I scanned Ghost as a Magician, and I may have stopped the night 2 kill which seems like it was Ghost as well.
SpyreX more or less started and pushed the charge on Anti, and made zero attempts to move off it.
Your Day 3 posts really didn't seem faked to me. **Interestingly, DGB adds you were hypnotized earlier in the game, and something is troubling me about that. (more in a sec)**


@DGB
At this point, do you have any qualms claiming? I have some concerns because of the amount of power thus far. I am a Jack (essentially), we've had a Martyr and a person who knows when they were hypnotized flip, a Tracker, and a Watcher... which interestingly seems to be similar to what you are eluding to being, only you seem a little more powerful since you can actually differentiate between someone being hypnotized or not. Town just seems to be getting slightly over powered here. Especially when the dead scum are difficult to determine if they are power or not.

Now if what you claim is true, then you and Tasky aren't scum, and scum almost assuredly rest on CES, Elli, and Kat. Would Elli and Kat really be acting the way they have together as scum? Seems to be painting too large a target on both their backs for both to be scum. But then we also have Tasky, who you are confirming as town, who is putting forth his feelings for the towniness of CES.

Supposing you are lying, which I haven't been comfortable with you all game, then you could have just WIFOMed Tasky as scum or town. What I really don't like though is two watching style roles in a game that already had 5 power claims and flips prior. Adding to this is the fact that you are the worst quoter in the game.



That's about all I got for now. I want Elli in here and posting since he only mentioned V/LA for a few days (which seem to have passed now), and we really need more activity from everyone in general, because something isn't coming together right to me.

[Toogeloo]

Toogeloo. Don't overestimate our power.
1. Tracker is extremely weak in this kind of setup, since kills happen indirectly.
2. DGB doesn't seem to be a real watcher, since he doesn't know who hypnotized.
3. The Great Zandolfini is a quite weak role. Knowing that you were hypnotized doesn't really help you to catch scum.
4. The JOAT is the only decent role here. But don't forget that the roleblock rarely works in town's favor and that the chance of actually getting a successful protect or a successful investigation is quite slim.

You are coloring it a little incorrectly. Confirming town is just as powerful as finding scum.

1. Tracker follows someone to a kill, that player is town. Tracker follows someone to a non-kill, then that player has to either be scum or power. Watcher is also similar in this aspect. Also, because it takes two people to kill, the hypnotist and the hypnotee, it increases the amount of targets plausible for targeting with tracking and watching.
2. DGB can confirm town players based on them being hypnotized.
3. I agree, the Great Zandolfini might be weak for confirmation purposes, but there may be some aspect to it that counters scum, like they can't hypnotize a player again if they know they were hypnotized prior.
4. The investigation confirms a player one way or another, and the Roleblock and Doc are the only real protection in the game.

Conifrming town players is just as potent as catching scum, so with so many roles that do so it is a cause for skepticism.

[Toogeloo]

Sorry for my absence. I had some issues of my own this weekend that removed me from my home for a while (and thus no internet).

Speaking partially on DGB's claim (why is an apprentice a PR?), I think it's very easy to fake, but I also want to consider the equally scummy behavior that is bugging me. Here are my thoughts on what we should be focused on:

-CES has only just recently picked up activity today. CES could have realized that with 2 scum dead he needed to pick up activity for his scum team. Of course it's entirely possible that he also realizes that there aren't many suspects available and he is one of them, especially with DGB gunning for him two days in a row.

-Kat stated Anti was town on Day 2 or 3, somewhat matter of factly. Kat also made comments that swayed several voters to lynch dana, and then made an apparent back-pedal in certainness after the lynch was confirmed. I don't even know what to make of the secret talk that was going on, as I said I brushed it off, but people are concerned about it.

-DGB has been quoting almost everyone since she started playing. The breadcrumb claim is just as easily fakeable as the entire claim itself (will explain in a moment, see below). DGB has been tunneled on CES as scum, but the reason seems pretty bad, stating that CES wasn't hypnotized last night. I bet a fair number of players weren't hypnotized last night, and if I had to take a guess at who was hypnotized, CES wouldn't have even made my top 3.


The reason the claim doesn't impress me is because Fate died Night 1. Looking at the scum rules, they are kill-restricted in the fact that they can't hypnotize the same player twice for the kill. So a smart scum team may have some kind of "kill the person we hypnotized last" strategy. Fate dying Night 1 suggests he was hypnotized Night 0 by any reasonable amount of deduction, therefore pushing that idea on to us is almost a moot thought since I had been thinking that since Day 3 when I think I saved Ghost. Logically speaking, it would suggest that Ghost was hypnotized Night 1 to kill Fate. Scum also can't afford to deviate too much from hypnosis to kills due to the kill restriction, and that would also explain the very limited protection power we have as town. However, it's still too much scanning I think. At the same time, if DGB is telling the truth, he is invaluable at this point.

I think between CES and DGB one or the other is scum, but not both, so my gut says we should be targeting one of these two today.

For now,

Unvote

With deadline approaching, let's discuss this, because we are really running out of time with this loafing around. A Majority lynch is still 4 I think too, so no player is at that point yet.

[Toogeloo]

I don't think DGB ever had a case against you. If memory serves, he popped in, jumped on the dana wagon immediately, and then called me scum because you said I was.

[Toogeloo]

I really gotta keep reminding myself that DGB is a female.

[Toogeloo]

We have 36 hours and not enough votes to get anyone close to majority (or majority of majority even). I think current vote counts have CES and DGB at 2 each and Kat with 1.

[Toogeloo]

@CES
That makes my head spin. Tasky is cleared by DGB, but DGB should be today's lynch.

If DGB is scum, then he doesn't clear Tasky at all.


Votes are spread everywhere now too with Kats vote.

[Toogeloo]

Can we please get a prod of Ellibereth? (maybe even a replace since there is pretty much nothing readable on the guy).

[Toogeloo]

EBWOP:

Mod: See above, except in bold.

[Toogeloo]

I've been reviewing various ISOs and weighing alternatives, and I think that it really comes down to DGB today.

I keep coming back to the same circle of suspects, and at the center of it, with most of the worst behavior, is DGB. Her analysis over Day 3 were pretty much warped solely on voting pattern and nothing else, and she has had no conviction in anyone except CES. Yesterday she called CES scum, then at the end of the day said CES was least likely to be scum, and now she is tunneled on CES solely because of the reasoning that he wasn't hypnotized last night.

-Day 3 had DGB come in without apparently reading anything and throwing a vote down on dana with little inquiry as to why she was doing so, only that she was told to (makes it very easy to brush the vote off).

-Day 4, she quickly called CES scum (and yet didn't even vote for him). She spent most the day doing huge walls of vote analysis constantly shifting the top suspect. She also was hesitant against Anti (despite his ranking on her lists) until after my claim and it was evident Anti was going down.

-Day 5, she has been solely focused on CES with a claim that can easily be faked, and weird reasoning for her choices of targets (a role like that suggests you target who you think is most town to see if they are ever hypnotized I would think since suspicious players aren't likely to get hypnotized since scum wants them to end game).

-DGB is a horrendous quoter, and it really becomes a "fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me," in my eyes.


Finally, DGB has linked herself to several players, most key are CES and Tasky. Her flip really helps confirm one or the other (since I doubt DGB would bus a scumbuddy CES so hard, and if the role is really true, then Tasky is pretty much clear), and makes tomorrow much clearer. With such a small group that scum could possibly reside, I think DGB's power (if it's real) probably isn't as necessary as I originally thought it might be. We need a lynch for the day, so it would be my suggestion to go this way.

Vote: DGB

[Toogeloo]

I am not completely sold on any of them, though I do think it's either CES or DGB as scum. I like the DGB lynch better because of the confirmation we get from it in the end as it would assure either CES or Tasky as town and limit tomorrows actions. We lynch Katsuki and regardless of the result we are probably still in the same position tomorrow forced to choose between CES and DGB.

I'm not sure where this SpyreX suspicion has come from. I mean he is in no way confirmed, but seriously... would he bus Anti yesterday as a scumbuddy and ride it the entire way? If his goal was to get some takers on Anti, and then Anti counter those takers, then it's possible, but I kind of saw SpyreX as more or less town after the Anti flip for being the headline of it.


Today is kind of a coin flip I think, hopefully giving us all the info we need to close this out tomorrow, but this last minute scramble back and forth on Kat and CES does raise an eyebrow.

[Toogeloo]

@Mod: out of curiousity, what happens in the event of a tie with two people having a majority of a majority?

I won't sit on DGB stubbornly if we have to make a decision between the two. It's far better to lynch than to not do so. I will be watching the topic until deadline off and on and will move to Kat (or CES) in order to prevent a no lynch scenario if need be. There is still a little over 5 hours, so I want to hear someone make some better cases for a lynch today instead of "this doesn't feel right."

[Toogeloo]

Don't know why I missed that. I feel dumb since I have been up to snuff on the rules thus far >_>.

[Toogeloo]

Kat, your lynch is pretty much a forgone conclusion at this point. DGB isn't going to vote for herself, so you would need some people to unvote you which would require you to make a case.

[Toogeloo]

Also... why did it take 36 hours to deadline to get as much activity as we did today?

[Toogeloo]

Alright then, let's get on with it.

Unvote
Vote: Katsuki

Not my primary preference, but I have hopes.

[Toogeloo]

I'm assuming you saw CES get hypnotized since, A) you haven't included him in analysis at all, and B) you aren't tunneled on him like you were yesterday.

I don't get why SpyreX would be a suspect with his headlining of Anti's lynch. It doesn't make any sense.

[Toogeloo]

Well, here's the thing. I used my Roleblock last night on Ellibereth.

I spent a good portion of the night phase deciding between Elli and DGB and decided to take a shot on Elli, just in case DGB is telling the truth.


So if Elli is scum, she didn't send in the hypnosis last night.

[Toogeloo]

It's entirely possible that Kat stopped the Night 2 death, but Kat himself claimed in post 858 that I was virtually confirmed because of it, which leads me to believe Kat took an action (or lack of action) on Night 2 that would preclude him from considering the possibility he himself stopped the kill.

Any number of possibilities could exist that we aren't considering, like Ghost could be the Hypnotist equivalent of a Godfather, and Kat stopped Night 2's kill for example (somewhat outlandish). Or DGB and Elli are scum together as they only require one more mislynch to win (more probable). Kat may have been a limited use Roleblocker (stopping any part of the kill is detrimental to scum since it takes two players to kill), so he may not have sent an action on Night 2. Who knows.

I think Occam's Razor comes into effect here though. The most likely player to be scum is Elli in almost any situation. Just because I roleblocked Elli last night and a kill still happened, doesn't mean that Elli isn't scum. The other scum could simply have sent the kill, especially if they felt that they weren't in danger of being blocked.


We could very much be looking at a MyLo situation here btw, so I'm not sure if we should be voting just yet.

[Toogeloo]

Still waiting on other claims before I add my two cents.

[Toogeloo]

OK, so now that claims are out. I think Elli needs to die.

He is the most common denominator in all scum team possibilities.

Vote: Elli

[Toogeloo]

I mentioned earlier that I used my Roleblock on Elli. But that doesn't mean Elli isn't scum, it just means he didn't send in the kill.

[Toogeloo]

I have been tunneled on DGB all game, and I absolutely would have done it in a heart beat yesterday.

Here's my conundrum....


Yesterday DGB was tunneled on CES like crazy for not being hypnotized, but today he doesn't want to lynch CES. If we are looking at a DGB/Elli scum team, wouldn't CES be the superior mislynch for the win? So why is he pressing for your head SpyreX?

[Toogeloo]

The hesitance to the Elli lynch is a bit telling.

I am reconsidering re-voting for SpyreX, just simply because he is more vocal than Elli. You may have convinced me, DGB. Elli seems to have rolled over, but SpyreX will be given the ability to mislynch twice if we let it go by, some thing that is dangerous for us.

[Toogeloo]

Unvote

... for now... Let's talk this out.

@Elli:
Kat seemed 100% sure that I stopped the kill on Night 2 based on his ISO and specifically post #858. Any number of possibilities could represent this.

-Maybe he took no action on Night 2?
-Maybe Kat was Roleblocked himself on Night 2?
-He may have limited uses of his power, and did not act that evening?


We can't fathom to guess why, however, we can read him, and it seems strongly to me that he himself is sure he didn't have a part in stopping the Night 2 kill. I don't think that if Kat had reason to believe he stopped the kill that he would "virtually confirm" me.


@SpyreX:
You said paranoia was gripping you that you think DGB and CES are scumbuddies. Look at yesterday, with DGB tunneled on CES, and CES doubting DGBs claim and wanting to lynch him, do you take counter-bussing from that?

[Toogeloo]

Also... might I suggest a No Lynch here? I'm not sure the feasibility of it, or if it's even a wise play, but with even numbers it may make tomorrow easier.

[Toogeloo]

Going to be very minimal activity from me this weekend. I will pop in when I can, but today is my son's birthday, my mother is flying in today. I am going to be entertaining through the weekend. We are moving at a snails pace anyways, but I figure you should all know that I may only check once or twice during the course of the weekend.

[Toogeloo]

I think the consensus is clear on the No Lynch thought.

Vote: Elli

[Toogeloo]

On one hand, DGB hasn't acted in the best interests of town all game. Shes did the quoting thing a lot in the middle of the game, she tunneled you insistently on Day 5, and called you scum a ton on Day 4 as well, and she does not have the greatest track record for pinpointing/lynching scum early.

Looking at Anti, she avoided wanting him lynched, preferring MPR, Kat, and You (CES), and I think she only got on when it seemed no traction would be taken anywhere else. Looking at Elli, she avoided going after the most likely scum in the minds of half the town, tunneling on SpyreX, and only switching when it was clear we weren't going for SpyreX. That is alot of avoidance to lynching scum in my opinion.


On the other hand, SpyreX's only protown contribution was leading the Anti lynch, which may or may not have been entirely intentional to take off the ground. The main thing that sparked Anti's lynch was people pulling off me, his main competition, once I had claimed and I seemed more or less confirmed. I think by that point, it would have looked really bad for anyone to pull off of Anti. I also can't fathom why DGB would clear you if she were scum when you could have clearly been an easy mislynch yesterday.


I think, of the two, DGB probably looks worse from an overall game play standpoint, minus the WIFOM of why she would clear you.

[Toogeloo]

Is it bad for me to say I could almost forsee myself flipping a coin between the two?

[Toogeloo]

I also want to break down my thoughts for the nights...


-Night 0, Fate was assuredly hypnotized since with little info, and the type of player he is, it makes the most sense as to why he died Night 1.
-My guess is that Ghost was hypnotized Night 1 to kill Fate, and again, since he was the most protown player at the time, it would make sense that he was targeted Night 2.
-I don't know who would have been hypnotized on Night 2 to make the kill, but it was likely someone who was also protown. My guess is possibly Budja since he died the following Night.

-DGB states that Tasky was hypnotized the night Budja died, which leads me to believe that Tasky was probably going to be Night Kill number 4, but then MPR claimed Tracker, which means that scum would have had to stray from the killing formula, since a Tracker in this game is terribly dangerous. I would wager that MPR was never hypnotized since he was shaping up to be a good mislynch candidate I think, and if I were a betting man, I would say I was the one hypnotized to kill MPR on Night 4.


This probably means that when we started Day 5, we had 3 players hypnotized to make kills already, by my assumption, Tasky, Ghost, and myself, which means very few players were available to make kills for the night. Obviously, I can't say for certain, but this is me thinking out loud.


What I am curious about though, is if I was more than likely hypno'd to kill MPR (it is just a guess), and CES was hypno'd on Night 5... why would DGB (as scum) shift the attention off of you CES? Unless I haven't been hypno'd yet and will be used for a night kill tonight, it seems very possible to me that scum may not have any hypno kills remaining.

[Toogeloo]

I think one things for certain... CES is assuredly not the last scum, so I feel safe in casting my vote. I've convinced myself that it's probably right.

Vote: SpyreX

Also:

Mod: I am going out of the country for a week from December 1 to December 6, so I will not be able to play. I was not expecting the game to last as long as it has. If the game does happen to continue through these dates, you may need to seek a replacement for me, or wait until I return.

[Toogeloo]

In case you were wondering how I went from "DGB looks the worse from a gameplay standpoint," to "Vote: SpyreX," it boils down to DGB shifting attention off of you CES. It doesn't make sense as a scum tactic. My tunneling on DGB/Seraphim, and the buddying behavior off of SpyreX, also clicked in my mind that I have been off all game as well. I've also been in DGB's shoes, believing the wrong people scum all game, avoiding lynching scum when I should have, so I think somewhere along the lines of me posting my thoughts, I had made up my mind.

[Toogeloo]

No point in drawing this out. I had figured as much that scum were out of hypnotizable killers. DGB is going to target me since she cleared CES, and there is no possible way CES is scum at this point, so I am going to be voting for DGB. This means that CES is the deciding vote.

Vote: DGB

[Toogeloo]

I was forced to bus almost every one of my scummates because they didn't do anything >_>

Just so every one knows, I cannot believe scum won that game. We were 4 goons with a kill restriction lol. I have a lot of townies to thank for the win since you all said things I was able to play off of to get me looking more and more pro-town.

[Toogeloo]

Scum QT btw:
http://www.quicktopic.com/45/H/Fp6eEnJYAw4

It's kind of boring.

[Toogeloo]

The other thing that helped me was that I read CES's doubt that I could be scum when I posted Kat's 858 post. I almost killed CES instead of GhostWriter, but figured I could get CES to play into my hands a bit easier.

[Toogeloo]

Someone post the dead QT, I am very interested in reading it ^_^

[Toogeloo]

I was frustrated after the 4th power flip is all. A tracker, watcher, roleblocker, psychic, and watcher-lite is a lot of power for 4 goons with a kill restriction to handle. We still don't even know if Martyr was a power role as well, or if that was just Magna's title for being the first to die on Night 0.

I hope no one is frustrated at my play =( ... I tried very much to replicate my town play, and I made sure to fine tooth comb the game for things I could use.

[Toogeloo]

By the way... Scum no actioned on Night 2. I was away during that 3 day downtime, and figured someone on my team would submit a kill. When I came back, I was slightly miffed, but decided to use it to my advantage.

[Toogeloo]

I think Anti, Raz, and Ellie should come in here and thank me >_>.

[Toogeloo]

[Toogeloo]

aww...

[Toogeloo]

GG Toog you had it in the bag even though I caught you d2 (ask ellie), I was dead

One of the reasons I knew you had to go. Ellie didn't want you dead, but out of everyone on the playlist, you would be the only person I wasn't sure I could fool due our time together on Board 8. Most people on mafiascum don't know me, so it was a little to my advantage to kill people that knew me first, and leave those who didn't to the end.

Magna knows me from our Newbie game where we nailed two scum in Day 1 together, so I figured he would know that I was scum pretty quick if I didn't take him out (Dead QT actually makes me happy I had him fooled for a long time). You had your extensive experience with me, especially my scum play, on Board 8, so you were going to die on Night 0 or 1. Ghost was the only other player I was a little worried about, because he saw my town play in a recent game we just played, but I figured I could fool him a little easier than you and Magna. DGB coming into the game late had me a little worried, but since she was my tunnel for the game, I was able to play off of it.

Beyond that, I wasn't too worried about the rest of the play list because they had little experience with my style of play. I'm frankly surprised I didn't get the "he's too town," routine I always seem guilty of regardless of alignment. This is probably the first game that it hasn't come up.


I look forward to playing again when I get back from Canada ^_^.

[Toogeloo]

PJ, could we get the night actions, please ^_^...? I'm interested in seeing how many PRs had us dead to rights over the course of the game.

[Toogeloo]

Holy crap the Magician's Apprentice was powerful.

Had DGB scanned SpyreX instead of me on the waning days, the game would be over for town since SpyreX was hypnotized long before end game. I got lucky >_>...

[Toogeloo]

The game would have been over for a town win rather.

[Toogeloo]

Might just be the board 8* in me that thought the game was imbalanced, but hey, I won, so I shouldn't be complaining.

*Fate would be the only person who probably gets it.

[Toogeloo]

Fate and I (well, not Fate as much anymore) play on another site where a sample 16 player mafia list could be:

TOWN
Cop
Doc
Vigilante (1 shot)
Tracker or Prostitute (knows if the player got up)
Bulletproof or Bodyguard
Jack of all Trades (usually with a scan, a RB/Prot, and something else)
Miller
Vanilla
Vanilla
Vanilla
Vanilla
Vanilla

SCUM
Strongman (one time unblockable/unprotectable if they send the night kill) or Janitor (1 use)
Roleblocker
Role Cop (or Flavor Cop if themed)
Goon


As you can see, chock full of power for both sides. Usually the games aren't that small, and they press over 20 players most times.



Here is an example of a large themed game that happened a while ago...*
TOWN
Cop
Doc
Princess
Vigilante (2 shot)
Hider (dies if hides behind scum)
Jack of all Trades (various abilties)
Death Miller Jack of all Trades (various abilities)
Mason
Mason
Vanilla
Vanilla
Vanilla
Vanilla
Vanilla

SCUM
Jack of all Trades (with various abilities)
Roleblocker (with a single use Poison)
Flavor Scanner (identify a player based on theme)
Bulletproof
Vanilla
Vanilla

*Town won this game by a landslide, mislynching only twice




These are commonly the games I play the most. Granted, these games also have shorter deadlines (48 hour days, 24 hour nights).

So when I see 3 scanning roles in 16 players, and scum doesn't even have a roleblocker to assist them, and a roleblocker with double ability to stop night kills, and 4 goons with a kill restriction, my first reaction was that the game was imbalanced. As I said though, I won, so I really shouldn't complain.