Cold War Mafia - GAME OVER!!

[ThAdmiral]

hi guys
so, a few questions for you all:
1) how did you start playing mafia?
2) Are you better as scum, or town? Why?
3) What are your thoughts on the current setup?

1) Started playing on a magic the gathering forum. Moved here.
2) Scum. My best ability, I believe, is staying alive - and that is all you need to do as scum.
3) Too early to say.

OMG furcolow is in this game? I highly recommend a lynch and that all he says should be taken with an allhelping almighty help of salt.. Should any lynch be available for furcolow that he should be lynched town or scum. And i am being serious.

Furculow is improving. So I think this is a bit unfair.

Vote furcolow

RQS stage is scummy, I refuse to answer your questions. I seriously would like to see a furcolow wagon.

NO ONE ELSE ANSWER THE QUESTIONS

All the "slips" are fabrications of peoples imaginations

Overreaction for mine.
And I answered the questions anyway, so take that!

For me, PoisonIvy hasn't adequately accounted for the fact she thought the game was Americans vs. Soviets as opposed to a town who wants to eliminate all threats to peace which is in the pro-town win condition.

This is a good point.

vote: poison ivy

[ThAdmiral]

I'm not CERTAIN you are scum, though, and I have meta on PI

She walls as town, and I have yet to see a wall from her
until I see a good, solid, town wall from her, I will be voting her

vote: pi

Well don't tell her how to look town if she is indeed scum.

My PM doesn't explicitly state whether or not there are town aligned players of different nationalities, either. Moreover, I don't see why other role PMs should be any different since the rules regarding nationality and alignment are in the first post, or so, and they are clearly different concepts - something David doesn't seem to quite grasp, by his use of 'probably'. My feeling then, is that David is bullshitting in grand style.

As such: VOTE: DavidParker

I disagree quite strongly. I have dp marked as town.

Then let's look at the Ivy vote. Ivy is scum because she hasn't posted a wall of text yet - on page 3, when the game has been open for less than 24 hours. Leaving validity of meta arguments aside, it is unreasonable to expect a wall at this point in the game. Furthermore,

saying

that the lack of a wall post is the motivation behind your vote means that if Ivy is scum, all she has to do is manufacture a wall post and she'll be cleared as town in Furc's view.

This is truth.

Consider also this snippet from Furc's wall:

I am suspicious of LlamaFluff for his black/white reaction to the RQS. Only siths deal in absolutes, kind of thing. The townie reaction, in my opinion, is more along the lines of what Scott Brosius said. He was confused, wishy-washy on it, and then voted me.

So you, as town presumably, posted something to which the townie reaction is to vote you? How is that pro-town? Hint: It's not.

Come on, seriously.

I throught it would be more then a few pages before I figured out why you were a policy lynch of so many people.

I think he's doing alright tbh.
I've seen him play a lot worse than this, and that is why he is a policy lynch to a lot of people.

[ThAdmiral]

Other things:
1. My spidey sense says Furculow is town.
2. Ghost Writer's reference to his wiki in post #27 is a lie. He says he's undefeated as scum, but he's clearly not.
3. smargaret is giving me town pings but that's pretty slim right now. Also, JMJ's comment "no hard feelings" earlier struck me as suspicious as well.

1. Yep.
2. Good pick up.
3. I'm actually getting scum tingles from smargret.

[ThAdmiral]

Any groups with the ability to talk at night may for so for another 24 hours.[/b][/size]

Mafia could daytalk for 24 hours into day one it seems.

Woah, missed this.

This makes furculow look bad. Very bad.

vote: furculow

[ThAdmiral]

As I said, just the opposite actually. Furcolow responded like he expected scum to be able to daytalk the entire game, the mod post suggests that scum actually dont have daychat, which is not what furcolow said.

Furc said that by talking before being coached by daytalking scum he was proved as town. Given that scum could daytalk, even just temporarily, it seems like something scum would be more likely to come up with than town that knew nothing about daytalking.

It makes a lot more sense for him to say that if he was scum and truly believed he could "prove" himself town by doing it.

[ThAdmiral]

I disagree quite strongly. I have dp marked as town.

I don't like how you just throw this in there without elaborating on it. Why is he town to you?

His goodposting.
Made good points regarding poisonivy and furc.

Come on, seriously.

I don't like this either. If this is scoffing, it's certainly a confusing way to do it. What's wrong with margaret's comment? Bad post, Admiral.

Oh noes, disapproval!
She was laughingly trying to make it seem like furc was saying that the pro-town thing was to vote him, whereas he was making a point about certainty and uncertainty. It was a massive reach.

2. Ghost Writer's reference to his wiki in post #27 is a lie. He says he's undefeated as scum, but he's clearly not.

2. Good pick up.

Are you two being funny or are you really not getting it? Look at my first 2 answers. Notice a theme there? No? Well, simply read on of my other posts in which I openly say they were purposely and obviously false answers. Way to fail. I wrote the wiki, of course I know my own game record. If you honestly find that to be a good pick-up, then you may want to learn what a good pick-up is, especially since it would mean you didn't pick up on the fact that the answers were false.

Is a good pick up: "Hey, haven't I seen you before? I remember, it was in my dreams!"?


In other news I felt a lot happier voting poisonivy. Fruc seems to be reacting as a town would in his situation.

vote: poisonivy

[ThAdmiral]

But I can tell you that this is definitely not pro-town behavior:

vote: poisonivy for the reason of survival.

It is if you are town.

Vote: TheAdmiral

I haven't done much more than skim the game, and I still know this guy's scum.

Am I?

[ThAdmiral]

Yeah, my inside information is that I know I'm town.

[ThAdmiral]

Furthermore does anyone else see the irony that redcoyote's reason for voting me is rather vague...

[ThAdmiral]

It is if you are town.

Actually, I believe the pro-town move in this situation would be for Furcolow to try to find scum, not to just push any wagon that isn't his. Especially since we've still got weeks until the deadline.

But I'm just saying him voting the other leading wagon is not necessarily anti-town if he is indeed town. Especially since often when there is competing wagons one is town and one is scum.

ThAdmiral however has been giving me bad vibes throughout. Dont actually know why

Maybe because of recent statements from other players expressing negative opinions of you, you figure he's an easy counterwagon to yours? Seriously people, look at this quote. This is just AWFUL.

Yeah this is classic "keep counterwagon options open" scum-talk. (not what you said, what poisonivy said)

[ThAdmiral]

Vote: TheAdmiral

I haven't done much more than skim the game, and I still know this guy's scum. Everyone else needs to step their games up >.>

Why?

It's cooler if you don't say.

[ThAdmiral]

Mudslinging? He posted decent reasons to get off the wagon and vote you. Both times. You only give a damn because you're the second largest wagon and you're trying not to die, regardless of your ATE statements claiming otherwise.

I just don't get what is wrong about wanting to not die.
Would you like to die?

UNVOTE:

I'm having second thoughts about the PI wagon -- it's taken off a little too quickly for my tastes. I still think PI seems scummy, but in the past my scum reads have been pretty terrible, so I'm going to play this one by the numbers.

Furcolow is steadily becoming more and more scummy to me: the "meta" appraisal of PI, the whole RQS deal... and this.

I am going to put my vote on the first alphabetically to have not posted.

What?! It's WAY too early in the game to say who's a lurker and who just had a busy couple of days IRL. You're just trying to substitute a policy vote for actual scumhunting.

Scum post: 1. unvotes (inexplicably); 2. smears Furcolow; and 3. doesn't vote Furcolow?! . If PI is still scummy, but Furculow is rising, why not vote him? I don't like the unvote for obvious reasons, as PI isn't really in danger of being lynched soonish, so why the bail? Possible PI scum buddy here.

Good analysis.
I think goanna is a good person to look at tomorrow.

unvote
vote furcolow

i agree that his 3rd question would be more informative to scum than town, and his comment about day talking scum is bad.

This vote is terrible. Did you not think of this when you were answering the questions the first time through or is this just a bad bandwagon vote?

This is also a good pick up.

You are looking pretty good in my eyes BotS.

Vote: GhostWriter

Not liking him defending Rat (very heavily, too). And I also don't like that we're almost 10 pages in and he doesn't even have a vote down. Aside from defending Rat, his ISO consists of IoA and questions that go nowhere. Do not like.

First of all: whatsup IPman.

Second of all: srsly? Ghostwriter hasn't voted anyone. That is bad.

My lack of placing a vote is due to the fact that both the lead wagons are on two players who are clearly VI's.

That does not excuse you from not voting anyone at all. You haven't even said you are

suspicious

of anyone yet.

vote: ghostwriter

[ThAdmiral]

PEdit: ohai Thad. You're scum again, aren't you?

No, not this time.
You?

[ThAdmiral]

Anyway I'm going to

unvote

for now and

vote: ThaDmiral

. Apologies if the casing is wrong there. I didn't really like his reasoning on the Furc daytalking scum situation. I think it was a stretch since the information was apparently available to everybody per a post by the mod.

You did get the casing wrong.
Apology accepted.

PEdit: ohai Thad. You're scum again, aren't you?

No, not this time.
You?

Oh damn, you caught me. Curse your excellent questioning skills. I coulda sworn you posted in the QT, though. Something like, "hey, let's make sure to vote together on D1". You sure you're not scum? Maybe you clicked the wrong game PM.

Lol.

I can tell this is going to be a frustrating game.

Good wagons: jmj, rat, gonno with a remainder of Thad
Bad wagons: people who are being wagoned.

New scummiest quote in the game award goes to this gem:

the last time i saw someone do this they turned out to be scum. im not sayin', im just sayin'...

I dont really love a Thad wagon, but its a perfectly acceptable spot to throw up a wagon, especially compared to PI and GW ones which I think are both on town. Jmj, rat or gonno I would be estatic if wagons showed up on right now.

How is ghostwriter not a good wagon?
Seriously check him out again and then tell me if you still feel the same way.

[ThAdmiral]

@ mod: egl is voting me not ghostwriter.

[ThAdmiral]

Hey guise! lets just hang me and the rest of ye guise can have fun disecting my farce of a wagon.

Ya know, actual substance. What people are doing are hanging back and delaying the inevitable.

Ive given my thoughts and opinions and as it is not good enough and i am the only wagon with so many "haters" then by all accounts my flipping should shed light on many varies of peoples.

Stop being a drama queen.

[ThAdmiral]

@Llama: why do you think gonnano is scum, but GW is town? Curious, since they're both acting slightly similar.

No they arent. GW gave off a boatload of town tells early on, gonno really hasnt given off any strong town tells, just quite a few scum tells.

Vote rat

A "boatload of towntells"?
Can you point them out to me?

[ThAdmiral]

I don't particularly object to a ThAdmiral wagon right now, but I'd like to see what exactly people are finding so scummy about him before I buy in. What vague posts or hints at inside information has he made?

And now that I've mentioned it, this is an extremely scummy quote. You wouldn't mind a wagon on him, even though you don't know why he's scummy? This looks exactly like scum waiting for a reason to get someone lynched.

This is a very good catch.
A lynch of gonanno or ghost writer today would make me very happy.

[ThAdmiral]

Just about all of his early posts.

They may be flavor speculation like people are saying, but this is the good type. He is shutting down people pushing on PI who really dont get the complexity of what the Cold War really was. It was not only soviets/americans, and depending on your political viewpoints, people may have different views on who was good and bad.

While there isnt that much scumhunting from GW, just about all of his points are deadon for what town should be thinking flavor and playwise this game.

He gave us a history lesson, and that's fine, but he also throws in lines like this:

To me, there's real mafia on her wagon. I just need to figure out who.

Which would be ok if he actually looked through the people on the PI wagon and actually tried to figure out who the scum were, but he didn't.

More scum funtime from Thad! He gets mad at Furc telling PoisonIvy to make a "good solid wall", continues to push the PoisonIvy lynch without any reasoning, continues to post absolutely no content...

Hi!

[ThAdmiral]

@People voting Rat: What do you think about the speed of the wagon you're on?

tbh... I don't like it. Especially smarg's reasoning:

yes, i suppose that is true, but i have never claimed to be a good scumhunter, and am in fact a rather poor one.

This does not sit well with me. Are you trying to excuse your future presence on a mislynch or something?

It's a bit of a stretch; feels kinda RVS-y. Do not like.

UNVOTE: Rat
VOTE: smargaret

Smargrets been stretching quite a bit in this game. Must be very limber.

[ThAdmiral]

Admiral is scum on meta

I'm hurt.

I am going to put my vote on the admiral if it isn't.

It is.

vote: thadmiral

if i'm not.

You already were.

His meta will alway show through for me when he is pressured, and I know that I can read him correctly.

This is going to be fun!

[ThAdmiral]

Incorrect. I'm simply not posting what I'm doing. It's a bunch of iso reading in one tab, game reading in another, and a third iso tab to cross-reference with other players based on the first tab. You expect me to post everything? Kind of funny.

I've said something very similar as scum once. Can't remember the game, but I was all like: "I don't post everything I think".
I was lynched soon after.

Assuming you are telling the truth, however, I'm looking forward to your analysis.

Also, on that "history lesson" bit: knowing the flavor of the game helps out a lot. It can literally make all the difference in how the town sees the game and in how we know how the game should be played. I saw flavor confusion. I wanted to make sure everyone was up to snuff on the flavor, or that at least a large enough amount of us were. I know a little about it, info that still remains with me from high school history classes. I looked up a little bit extra before getting distracted (Wikipedia; start in one place, end up in anime no matter what), so I've got some ideas of what to expect. Granted, you said it was fine, I was responding more to those who had a problem with what I said.

I said I was fine with the history lesson.

@Lowell:

Would you mind telling me your opinions on ThAd?

@Nacho:

Could you explain your XScorp read to me?

Can we get

your

opinion on, like, anything other than the votes on you?

[ThAdmiral]

How about no, Scott?

[ThAdmiral]

what just happened between furc and ThAd?

I hammered him in Troll mafia, and I'm fairly certain I can read his meta. He was scum there, and I'm reading his play here... leaning town because of his reply to my pressure. Not sold 100% or anything, but I would see scum in gonnano/bvoigt/ghostwriter before I would in TheAd in terms of meta on "how scum act". TheAd just posts a little differently as scum. I'm guessing this is his town play, because it feels different to me.

Is anyone open to a nameclaim? Do you feel scum have fake nameclaims?

Um I was town in Troll mafia. Do you mean rivertown?

Also no to name claims for now. I am against unnecessary claiming as a general rule.

[ThAdmiral]

Vote hopping isn't a scumtell IMO.

[ThAdmiral]

Vote hopping isn't a scumtell IMO.

it depends on the player

I suppose.

In any case I don't think it is the case for ip.

[ThAdmiral]

llamafluff, i agree with the sentiment, but what are your reasons for suspecting those players, gonnano specifically?

"I agree with you, but I have no idea why you suspect them, so why is that?"

Scum.

qft.

i honestly dont see why furcolow hasnt been lynched yet. iyam he is so obvscum it isnt even funny.

He honestly isn't.

Unless he's improved out of sight he is playing his town meat.

[ThAdmiral]

Lol!

I mean town

meta

[ThAdmiral]

Please describe his town and scum metas (as you see them) and why you feel this game is the town and not scum. Bonus points for links to games you feel particularly back up your opinion.

If I could describe the the difference between his scum and town play in one word it would be "proactive".
As town he seems to be more active, seems to more actively participate in scum hunting and questioning, has larger posts and generally seems to be more involved in the game. He also is more likely to claim that someone is town in his eyes.
As scum his posts are shorter, he seems to throw out a lot more one liners that don't really push things forward but rather comment mildly on what is going on, he generally goes after softer targets, like inactives, or pursues weak cases that he doesn't bother explaining all that well. He also is more likely to claim someone is scum in his eyes.

Reference games

town:
Fenzy Mafia
Rivertown Mafia
Lies of Locke Lamora

mafia:
Ohne Mafia
Whoniverse Jungle Republic

(there are probably better scum examples as he got lynched day 1 in both of these - maybe ask furculow for some games)

[ThAdmiral]

Stalling for time is indeed a scumtell. It's what I used to do as scum quite a bit.

Also pls no big wall posts.

[ThAdmiral]

Just finished re-read/skim. ThAd is also scum. I'd be perfectly happy to lynch him as well. I'll post a case if people need it, but it's pretty obvious.

Yeah, I'd like to see it.
I'm getting a bit annoyed at people calling me scum and then not saying why actually.

Based only on iso posts up to #3, Jmj is a good place to look tomorrow. I say tomorrow, because we likely will not have time today.

Lolwut?
Deadline is 2 weeks away!

[ThAdmiral]

@Thad - To just get one thing out of what LMP said answered for sure - Can you explain how your Furc read has progressed?

Thought he was probably town---thought he may have scumslipped---realised it may not have been a scumslip---think he is probably town

@ lmp - Instead of trying to rebut each and every point I am going to address what I believe are the main features of your case against me which, and correct me if I am wrong, are:
a) I have done little to no scumhunting
b) I have been sheeping
c) I have been jumping on wagons
d) I have had suspicious interactions with gonnano

The first three are linked so I will address them together.
I will begin by saying it is true that I haven't been actively scumhunting in the traditional sense. I will not deny that. However I believe there are logical and reasonable causes for this. Firstly people been quite astute in pointing out things that I find suspicious; multiple people spoke of PoisonIvy's lack of properly explaining why she thought the Soviets were scum in this game; Sathoris brought up the fact that mafia could daytalk for the first 24 hours, which cast Furculow's comments about coaching in bad light; InflatablePie picked up on GhostWriter's lack of voting. I realise I have not been personally responsible for finding any suspicious vote-worthy activity on my own, but the simple reason is I haven't had to - at all points in the game I was adequately happy with where my vote lay, and so never felt compelled to actively search for alternatives.
Secondly I believe, in general, that I am not all that much of a scumhunter. I certainly do it, but I am pretty sure if you looked over my history I have more often been inclined to pick and choose from what I believe are the best cases rather than submit ones of my own.
In any case I think it is unfair to say I have simply been jumping on bandwagons; I have offered my opinion on nearly all the major cases in this game and there are some I like and some that I do not (as an obvious example the Furculow wagon, other than when I momentarily joined it!). Also to note is the fact that I clearly haven't been party to all the wagon's that have occurred, and I would even argue that I pushed the GhostWriter wagon rather than simply jumped on it.

As far as the interactions with Gonnano I would argue that you might be reading too much in to something that isn't there. I realize that when I say something like "he's a good person to look at tomorrow" (as opposed to, say, voting him/pushing for his lynch today) there is no way to prove that I do genuinely intend to do that. But I can assure you Gonnano is right up among my top scum picks with the likes of GhostWriter. The only reason I haven't voted Gonnano up to this point is simply that I have always favored my vote somewhere else. Right now I still favor a GhostWriter lynch over a Gonnano lynch, but if it does get closer to deadline and Gonnano is looking far more likely I will be happy to move my vote.

Anyway I hope that goes some way to explaining where I am coming from in this game. I apologise for the length, I certainly didn't plan for the post to be this long!
If you have any questions feel free to ask away. I have a clear conscience and feel confident that I will be able to answer any queries you have about my play and my motivations to your satisfaction.

[ThAdmiral]

^^I love how you can admit to the scummy things you've done, but before now acted indignanat when people called you scummy because they didn't spell out why. You even admit to the charges, how can you have found it so odd that others were finding you scummy.

ThAd is still an awesome lynch.

I think you may have misunderstood me.
I admit to doing some of the things you talked about, such as not actively scum-hunting, but I don't admit they were scummy. I explained why I have acted the way I have, and tried to clear up what my motivations have been throughout this game.

[ThAdmiral]

@ lmp: boo to you and your links that only work in the USA.

[ThAdmiral]

ThAd, after seeing your defense, why exactly were you pushing my lynch?

Because you hadn't voted or voiced your suspicions of anybody, which is a pretty reliable scum-tell.

[ThAdmiral]

To speak of suspects, I feel pleased in being able to agree with my predecessor about Furcolow. As I was reading, I often saw him say and do things that would've gotten anyone else lynched, but from a village idiot they are somehow tolerated. Now, I can understand some people having town reads on him, since his town play can be atrocious, but if Furcolow survives this game after doing all this I am going to be very unhappy. Doing stupid things is one thing, but doing blatantly anti-town things and hiding behind a meta of stupidity is another. Evidently, this is not enough to convince people of him being scum though. Nothing ever seems to be... and I've seen people believe Furcolow town even after he murdered a townie in broad daylight.

Examples or this is just mudslinging.

While the early wagon/case didn't look that great, neither did ThAd's response to said case.

Which response? Why didn't it "look that great"?

@ lmp: You haven't really commented on my response to your case against me. Did you read it?

[ThAdmiral]

@ llamafluff: I'd like to see more content from you. You seem to be somewhat cruising in this game.

[ThAdmiral]

@ smargret: I'm on my phone so it's hard for me to quote but I am responding to your post about me a page or so back.

Of all the posts by people voting me for their reasons this makes the most sense.
All I can say is that I'm not trying to excuse myself before the fact for lynching a townie. First off all I genuinely believe gw is scum, second of all if you check my meta you can confirm that I generally don't scumhunt. While there are times I do, for example I always like to make a case on someone if I replace in to a game, I am far more likely to jump on an existing case.
Furthermore it is untrue to suggest because of this that my belief in these cases are any less, or that I would be less culpable if it was indeed on a townie. I choose cases I believe in and expect to be held fully accountable for my choices.

[ThAdmiral]

@ amrum: you said you were suspicious of me because of my reactions to pressure. Can you elaborate on this?
You also said my flip could give some scum leads. Can you also elaborate on this?

[ThAdmiral]

What are you gonna do about it other than whine?

[ThAdmiral]

Also, you seem to have inside alignment information and a lot of your reads on people change suddenly and for no apparent reason - you spend one whole post early in the game agreeing with me and saying I make good points, yet the next post in your iso has you getting scum tingles from me. You do the same thing to Furc - he's obvtown and then in the next post in your iso, he's clearly scum. That looks like you're feeling out where people are willing to wagon.

I forgot to respond to this bit before.

I don't get what you mean by "inside alignment information". Can you give examples of where I have indicated this?

And as far as changing my reads - well, yeah. It's day one, there's a lot of new information and posts coming in and my reads are going to change. I don't see how that is a scumtell.

Anyway, you have a point in that a ThAd flip would most likely yield nice results both from his flip itself as well as from analysis. And my Jmj vote doesn't do much if Jmj isn't really here. Other than that, the case against ThAd is a good one, and his defense wasn't such as to deter me enough from his wagon. My hesitation to get on it was his (to me, it seemed) tunneling of me. It tends to be a townie move when someone tunnels. Also, inb4 someone screams OMGUS.

Unvote

VOTE: ThAd

This reads as overly cautious, as though you are tip-toeing around.
If you are suspicious of me just vote me, don't say it is because it "would most likely yield nice results", and things like "inb4 someone screams OMGUS".

[ThAdmiral]

Edit
@ gw: it seems like you are more worried about what people will think about your vote on me, than you do about being sure that you are voting scum.

[ThAdmiral]

@ThAd: your reactions: they've been scattered and inconsistent, some very flippant and uncooperative. More than that, though, I'd like to see you flip because

I think analyzing who was pushing/defending you and how will be fruitful

.

Me more than anyone else who has had a wagon form on them?
Why?

2. Why did you lie about your meta? I've seen two cases where you used self-meta to try to appear town, when I have seen you behave exactly the same as scum. In fact, I have seen you behave that way only as scum.

2) I did not feel I was lying about my meta. I guess YOU know MY meta more than ME? Is that what you're implying? Because I'm not buying it. In fact, I'm not buying

anything

you're selling. Your questions feel weighted, forced, and a day late and a dollar short.

First off, using self-meta is never a good idea. It is worthless at best, and scummy at worst. And apparently I do know your meta better than you do, since

I could link to two of your recent posts where you, as scum, either acted exactly the same as you claimed to act as town, or acted the way you claimed you would not act as scum

. You were at the very least misleading in your use of self-meta, if not outright lying.

Could you pls? I would be interested in seeing these.

I wasn't aware that explaining why I changed my vote when I changed my vote was frowned upon. I should have simply quoted something someone said about you, made a one-liner agreeing with it without adding to it, and then voted. My bad.

The timing was weird as well. When did you first begin to find me scummy? Why did you vote when you did?

Sarcasm aside, I know how the vote will look. I still feel it needs to be made. Therefore, I need to explain that it isn't just an OMGUS vote, but one I do feel is right, especially with Jmj vanishing. However, outside of the addition that

your lynching will generate good analysis afterward

, my reasons are reasons I've already had and hadn't voted with. So I explained why I had not voted before that point. That's not being cautious, that's explaining a vote.

You and amrum are both harping on about this. What are you talking about?
How will my lynch provide more potential analysis than anyone else? (If you couldn't guess I'm suggesting this is a bs reason to vote me)

It does make a difference. People who try to disown their own posts are being scummy.

This may be true, but I don't think this is what Amrum is doing. In fact I feel you are being a bit harsh on amrum over this particular bone of contention.
There is a fear sometimes when you post something that you may have worded it badly and therefore miscommunicated what you were trying to say/gave the wrong impression to other people. This is what I believe amrum was driving at when she posted this:

I do have a fever, so perhaps I'm speaking gibberish atm, but it seems to me that everyone is failing reading comprehension right now.

[ThAdmiral]

how can you not see how your flip is beneficial?

Because I know that I would flip town?
In all seriousness I will address this below.

Of all the potential wagons, some people are VERY adamant about yours and have been pushing it hard. Others have put up defense. When you flip, this can give us some great information.

Other flips can also give us information, but more people have been talking about yours than any other in a way that I find the most informative.

As I said, GW would also be an informative flip, but less so.

@ThAd
My iso clearly shows when I expressed interest in the case when it was first introduced. It also shows why I left the Jmj wagon, which is gaining more speed and may be useful to me again. Amrun has pretty much got it about why you are possibly the best flip analyzing target. Of the other major wagons PI-slot and Fur have VI-like play, making analysis incredibly difficult. Myself and I guess Rat as well haven't been talked about in depth as much as you. Jmj isn't even really here anymore, nor was he ever much of a presence. Gonnano is possibly closest.

My main problem with this philosophy is that it is a weak reason to vote someone/support their lynch. Especially in a day that has gone this long you really should have someone that you think is scum, rather than someone who you think might provide more information.

Secondly I have always held the belief that "information" lynches are bad play. How useful is the "information" that you glean? Lets say I get lynched and flip town - were the people defending me town with good reads, or were they scum buddying to gain town-points? Were the people arguing for my lynch scum trying to push for a mislynch or town who were either mislead or just had bad reads themselves?
Lynching for "information" is a bit of a pointless activity in my opinion.

In any case no matter who gets lynched there is still going to be plenty of stuff to use as the basis of cases the following day. I really don't see how I will provide so much more "information" than anyone else, other than that I have posted more than some of the other lynch targets who flaked, which means I would basically be getting lynched because I have kept up a good level of activity!

[ThAdmiral]

@ThAd: your reactions: they've been scattered and inconsistent, some very flippant and uncooperative.

I forgot to address this before.
Basically examples or it's mudslinging. And also explain how being flippant is a scumtell?

[ThAdmiral]

@ rc: I've never thought that highly of PoisonIvy, and as you can probably tell I have problems with Amrum as well.
On the other hand I was giving jmj the benefit of the doubt as I thought he would eventually come in and post something, anything. But he didn't so out of the two "acceptable" options I would far prefer him. Also to note if you check his recent posts (as I just did) he's been pretty active elsewhere on mafiascum.net posting on the mishmash forum and the general discussion forum.

I really don't understand why gw isn't copping more heat, but I realize that he's not going to hang today.

unvote
vote: jmj

[ThAdmiral]

@ feysal - a few things you should know:
1. Lies of locke lamora was mine and furc's first game together so it really shouldn't be a surprise he didn't know my meta then (I think it was also the first game I played since I came back after a break as well). Since then we've played together in at least 2 or 3 other games. As you mentioned he picked me correctly as scum in rivertown recently, and picked me correctly as town (albeit not at first) in frenzy mafia. I linked to it earlier in this game so you can check it out if you want.
2. The comment about furculow and his "VI account" is an understandable misrepresentation, as it caused similar confusion in the game it first appeared in. He was referring to his account in which he was hydra-ing with and learning from the (well-known and excellent) mafia player Vi. It does NOT refer to an account were he plays as a Village Idiot.

Also as far as I can tell this is your case against me:

That leaves ThAdmiral. I did an ISO read of him, and actually got a scummy feeling from him. On my first read I thought it was really odd how Nachomamma8 called him scum with no explanation, and suddenly people agreed with him. I think I get it now. In addition to what others have said, I find him and Furcolow flip flopping on each other to be most curious, particularly how they both claimed the other was town due to meta.

Other than the flip flopping between furc and I is there anything else you actually find scummy? Or are you just another one of those people who are agreeing with Nacho for no reason?

[ThAdmiral]

Nothing up to now has been that scummy, except for the absence of scumhunting and for not helping the game along, but this post I have a more serious problem with. Earlier ThAdmiral called Furcolow's vote for survival pro-town behavior "if you are town". Furcolow did not even try to justify his vote with anything else, and he got a town read. However, PoisonIvy does not get equal treatment. She could be town too, she could want to survive too, but for her to even hint at another potential wagon is a scumtell. This reeks of a double standard. Furcolow gets town points for wanting to live, PoisonIvy gets scum points for even hinting at it. If I had to name a single post that suggests Furcolow and ThAdmiral being in the same scum team, this is it.

This is a slight misrep. I wasn't saying furculow is town

because

he voted someone for self-preservation. I said that a self-preservation vote is not a scummy move if the person doing the self-preservation vote was town.
Anyway - I think me and furc are on the same team. The town team. I already explained why I think furc is town based on meta and our previous games together. I don't see what is so hard to understand/scummy about that.

This was only the tenth post by ThAdmiral. Then there is more of defending Furcolow for not wanting to die in #209, and criticizing PoisonIvy in #238. I really wonder how no one else thought her reaction to pressure was very townish, she got her final reads out and seemed to accept she would be lynched. I can see no flailing from her at this time, and I don't like her being called a drama queen for endorsing her own lynch. ThAdmiral calls it scummy how GhostWriter is not scumhunting in #277, but I don't see him doing much of that either. Or sharing opinions, which he asks of Lowell in #293.

She soooo was being a drama queen. And I soooo have been sharing my opinions on tonnes of stuff this game.

In other news, I've become less fond of the Thad wagon. All of the points against him seem like someone's trying too hard to make the pieces fit together in a certain way.

This is bang on the money. I felt there was something weak/wrong/bad about the cases on me for a while now but couldn't quite put my finger on it, but this is it.

[ThAdmiral]

Anyway - I think me and Furc are on the same team. The town team. I already explained why I think Furc is town based on meta and our previous games together. I don't see what is so hard to understand/scummy about that.

Perhaps it is the frequency with which you've made excuses for his play, starting from your first post. Also, I think meta is a very weak reason to defend another player, particularly someone as unstable as Furcolow.

Pretty much every game I've played in with furc people have jumped on him, me included. It is generally over something stupid that he has said but sometimes it is just because he is Furc. It seemed like in this game he was being jumped on unfairly just because he was furc, however I think for the most part he has actually played pretty well today...
...until recently. Maybe it wasn't such a good idea to express how much I felt he was town as his play seems to have degraded since then. Over the last few pages he has been throwing votes around and I don't think the claim was good decision making. I still think he is probably town but he is testing my resolve, that is for sure.

I don't agree on the activity part, Furcolow is active regardless of alignment. In Ohne Mafia, as scum, he had more posts over a shorter period of time than here. I can't say I've seen him give many town reads, but he has thrown scum accusations left and right, especially at people who were on his wagon or who suspect him. He has also given weak or no explanations for his suspects, and his latest accusation of Stephoscope is a prime example of a weak case on a soft target, his accusation being almost pure OMGUS because Stephoscope agreed with my case on him.

I haven't read ohne mafia, will have to give that a look. But from the scum games that I read he definitely wasn't as active and, more importantly, wasn't as proactive. I mean even the ill-advised claim he has made in this game could be described as proactive as he was under no real pressure to do it and I can't really see a scum motivation for it.
I agree that recently he has been throwing around accusations and votes a little too much for my liking, and I am consequently a little less sure than I was before about his alignment.

Furc, a Stephoscope vote is pretty useless at this point.

UNVOTE: Amrun
VOTE: ThAdmiral

There just doesn't seem to be quite enough support for Amrun's lynch, and I'd prefer this over jmj.

you're probably right

unvote;
vote: artem

he's too town to be town:)

Loveheart = Town.

Unvote, Vote: artem

Um, do you guys mean amrum?

@ mothrax: It looked as though you were stalling just like jmj was, but with those last couple of posts it seems you genuinely want to participate in this game. I think the scum move here would have been to jump on my wagon as I have more votes, but not only have you gone for amrum you have given good reasons for doing so.
I don't feel comfortable voting you any more.

unvote
vote: amrum

To be honest this is much more for things PosionIvy said as Amrum's been pretty ok. I don't like voting someone for what their predecessor did as a general rule, but a scummy slot

is

a scummy slot after all.

[ThAdmiral]

What have you determined so far, furc?

[ThAdmiral]

Because I don't think your claim has helped us determine much at all. It seemed more you were just bored and wanted to shake things up more than anything else.

Needless to say I am against unnecessary claiming, but I don't want to get in to a discussion about the pros and cons of claiming - that is a mafia theory discussion and would perhaps be something best addressed after the game in the proper forum.

[ThAdmiral]

claiming helps determine the setup, admiral

I know I said I didn't want to discuss this, but I do have to clear one thing up.
The above quote seems to imply that at any given point you would promote a mass claim. Is that the case?

[ThAdmiral]

I have things to say but I'm on phone and it's very tricky to post at length. Will be able to get on this afternoon.

[ThAdmiral]

Thoughts on the claim:
- The macarthur/mccarthy thing was weird. The fact that amrum seemed to get off with only a few questions about it, and for some people came out looking

even more town

because of it is even weirder. As mentioned not only were the name's mixed up Amrum specifically called him a general and a "warmonger".
- Amrum: saying "there was no scum motivation for this, so why would I have done it if I was scum" is the very DEFINITION of wifom. The fact that you attacked people for saying you were using wifom after acting this way is really bad on your behalf. Do you understand why what you said was wifom?
- Amrum was never hammered. Bvoigt was already voting him. We should really test llama's governer claim by pushing amrum to a proper lynch.
- If mccarthy is town I would say the game is bastard. He is clearly not pro-peace so he really shouldn't be town.

One of the reasons I decided to do it was because ThAd jumped on my wagon -- OMGUS, self-preservation, or scumvote? You decide.

So there's no possibility that I am town voting you?
I don't really know what you want me/expect me to do in my situation. I was voting mothrax but don't feel he is scum any more. I would obviously rather vote someone like ghostwriter but that would be a waste.

I was already voting Amrun...maybe she realized that it was an actual hammer, but the reaction feels sincere to me.

I wouldn't be so sure. We had a vote count very recently, and if amrum was paying attention to the votes (as she clearly was since she said she claimed because people started voting for her) it would not have been hard to act shocked at being hammered. When I'm scum I always hope someone gambit-fake-hammers me so I can act all outraged.

[ThAdmiral]

We really should test the governor claim by getting 12 votes on amrum before anything else.

But I fully support looking at alternative wagons. David parker has suggested gonnano and Furculow has suggested egl and I don't think either of these are bad ideas. Quite a few people have expressed suspicion of gonnano but he has somehow escaped real scrutiny, and egl looks pretty bad from what furc brought up - especially the apparent hypocrisy in regards to why he jumped on the PI wagon.

But as I said -

before anything else we need to test the governer claim by getting 12 votes on amrum

I don't think scum would ever have a governer ability; third party maybe at a stretch. But confirming the ability pretty much confirms llama isn't scum.

[ThAdmiral]

@People saying - "Test gov ability" - You do realize that most govenor abilities end the day with no lynch right? Also, not claiming if I am really govenor or not, I do like pulling this stuff to get reactions out of people when I have another role.

Basically, if you are voting amrum over the govenor thing, you should be fully prepared to see a no lynch or him lynched.

So basically you are lying scum, right? If anyone needs a bullet tonight it's you.

For everyone who didn't notice:

Amrum has not been governered, and llama is to be killed asap. Put votes back on amrum.

[ThAdmiral]

@ llama: Seriously, you're the one who was too busy to post content because of class work but still had time to come in and complain that their hadn't been a flip yet, then direct everyone to vote for either me, amrum or jmj, and then when it looked like someone

was

going to flip you apparently "governered" him? And you also have the temerity to try and direct a vigkill on gonnano as well?!

You actually have to die.

vote: llama

[ThAdmiral]

unvote, vote: llama

[ThAdmiral]

Why would you derail the wagon though? She's got a scum-sounding role and a scum-sounding ability. Even if amrum does survive today she is set up for an easy lynch later down the track. It's just terrible play and completely contradicts your earlier assertion that this game needs a flip.
And how are you SO sure amrum is town in spite of everything? I don't buy it.

You've been flying under the radar and telling everyone else what to do for too long. It's time you copped some heat.

[ThAdmiral]

Why a gonnano lynch anyway. I know a lot of people have mentioned him but what has he done that's scummy?

[ThAdmiral]

I would like llama to answer that before any one else actually.

[ThAdmiral]

A few things from the last couple of pages...

People promoting no lynch are making me suspicious, especially ThAd, since he is the alternative. "Let me live one more night," he seems to be saying.

Wtf? When did I suggest a no-lynch? I would honestly rather people lynch me than that.

@Everybody who's claiming that McCarthy was a "warmonger": can you please link to where you're getting that from, because I don't necessarily associate spy paranoia with a desire for war.

Amrum described herself as a "warmonger" when she claimed mcarthur in post 704. It's one of the reasons the whole mis-claim thing is fishy in my eyes.

Ive been saying PI is town since around page five and still believe it.

Amrun wagon is almost certainly a GUARANTEED MISLYNCH.

How could you possibly be so sure of this without inside info? I've never

ever

been as sure about a town read as you guys are about PoisonIvy/Amrum who have, combined, scumtelled more than probably the rest of the playing list combined.

ThAd's sudden arguments with Llama make me feel SO GOOD about my vote. Talk about super survival instincts. "Hey wait everyone, it was just a gambit, come back to Amrun wagon!!!!"

I love how literally everything I do is just more proof that I am scum, and everything amrum does is more proof that she is town.
I just want you to know that you are failing at mafia.

Quite a few people have expressed suspicion of gonnano but he has somehow escaped real scrutiny

??? Where have you been?

Well to be fair even though a lot of people had mentioned you up until this point in the game you really hadn't attracted many votes.

Also, maybe this is a bad idea, but should Amrun and Furcolow paraphrase their flavor as well?

Absolutely. I notice Furc has, so it's your turn Amrum...

@llama case on gonnano in 907: there's

something

there, but your evidence doesn't sound very damning to me. I could see cautious/tentative town acting in a fairly similar way.

I would definitely be up for an egl lynch though. Completely unhelpful through the day and then there's the flip from this:

Why is ThAd still alive?

to this:

I'm not too interested in tales of ThAd scum these days.

With no explanation.

[ThAdmiral]

@ThAd: pushing for a test on governor when you did had a good chance of leading to a mislynch.

In my experience with governer roles if a player reaches lynch threshold nothing happens and the day continues. How many governer roles have you experienced in your playing history.

Quite a few people have expressed suspicion of gonnano but he has somehow escaped real scrutiny

Why a gonnano lynch anyway. I know a lot of people have mentioned him but what has he done that's scummy?

DOES NOT COMPUTE!

Um, DOES COMPUTE! Read them again, they actually say more or less the same thing but the second one is framed as a question.

@Llama: What's your take on bvoigt?

@ThAd: Same question.

Nothings really jumped out at me. I don't really have a read on him.

So basically you are lying scum, right? If anyone needs a bullet tonight it's you.

For everyone who didn't notice:

Amrum has not been governered, and llama is to be killed asap. Put votes back on amrum.

Okay, now I'm really disappointed. Are you aware that Furry is an alt of LlamaFluff? Aka the player who, in The Return to Liten, faked a double vote on me to prompt a claim from me? You were there, you saw it happen.

If I had to guess, LlamaFluff probably spotted that it was not a real hammer and added that governor bit to stop anyone from hammering for real. Or, he was looking for reactions to the claim. Either way, having been on the receiving end of one of his gambits, I say this is not something to lynch him over.

Return to Liten is a good game to bring up actually because Furry/llama's play was completely different in that game. In that game he was constantly providing good material and looked fairly obv-town from the get go. This game he has done hardly anything before a couple of days ago and since then all he's done is basically ask for a flip and then gone a fair bit out of his way to prevent one.

I like this post from ThAd. I mean, I REALLY like this post. I was starting to be less sure of him, but this pressure on LlamaFluff is good, considering he was the only person I saw EGL buddying up with that could be his scum partner. Amrun/EGL/LlamaFluff wouldn't surprise me.

That is funny, because I don't. This reaction is completely different to what I've seen from ThAd before.

...and? What is it that you don't like about it?

Quite a few people have expressed suspicion of gonnano but he has somehow escaped real scrutiny

Why a gonnano lynch anyway. I know a lot of people have mentioned him but what has he done that's scummy?

DOES NOT COMPUTE!

Very good catch.

Unvote
Vote: ThAdmiral

*Facepalm*
Look above.

As much as I have somewhat-adamantly defended ThAd and never believed him strongly to be a good lynch today information-wise, he is definitely playing in a cautious way that is really looking to be scummish at this point and it upsets me, because I have defended him and pushed for a non-ThAd lynch for so long... I'd still prefer gonnano at this point but ThAd has managed to creep up.

As if? What have I done that is cautious?

[ThAdmiral]

Normally I would wait to -1 to claim but due to deadline in 3 or so days I am going to claim now:

I am henry kissinger, US townie.

I am determined not to engage in war, and I don't plan on using any sneaky tactics.[/paraphrase]

So you can either lynch the pioneer of detente and the key negotiator for the Paris Peace Accords...or you can lynch the guy who admits to being a "warmonger".

It's really up to you.

(...but if you lynch me I get to call you all complete idiots)

[ThAdmiral]

No matter what you say about McCarthy, he worked to protect the US. He was just touched in the head.

I see you're saying the same thing I did when I claimed: believe it or not, it's up to you. You hurry to add, MY GUY IS PEACEFUL THOUGH!

Yeah. You do realize we are supposed to be lynching threats to peace right?

Thad, care to explain your flip flopping on gonnano?

FFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU!!!!!!

(look at post on last page at the bottom. I do address this.

There was no flip-flopping.

)

[ThAdmiral]

Check his wiki out

[ThAdmiral]

You did address the gonnanno shift in the other post, but inadequately. You actually WEREN'T saying the same thing. "Escaping scrutiny" means he deserves to have scrutiny, which is what you were implying.

When I said: "escaping scrutiny" I was referring to the fact that, to my knowledge, gonnano had not received many votes nor been the focus of any major cases.

[ThAdmiral]

I am discussing my night target because why not? What difference does it make? I've fully revealed. If scum has an RB, my target shouldn't affect whether or not they use it on me. If scum has an RB I assume they'd use it on me anyway.

Um, if you say your going to target a town player they will not block you, and if you say you are going to target a scum player they will block you. If you DON'T say who you are going to target they have to decide whether to block you or not.
Does that make sense?

@ThAd: Your first post on this subject implied that gonnano had not been receiving suspicion and SHOULD be receiving suspicion. Your second post implied that he WAS receiving suspicion and you couldn't see why so you wanted someone to tell you.

They really do not compute.

Maybe it was misspeaking and not what you meant, but it doesn't matter. The statements do not compute.

Ok here is the relevant bits of my initial post in full:

"But I fully support looking at alternative wagons. David parker has suggested gonnano and Furculow has suggested egl and I don't think either of these are bad ideas.

Quite a few people have expressed suspicion of gonnano but he has somehow escaped real scrutiny

."

Look I can understand how that may come across the way that you have interpreted it but I really was just saying that gonnano was a person that lots of people had expressed suspicion of/supported a lynch of but had remained free of votes/cases. I assumed that if so many people wanted to lynch him there must be a decent case against him and I wanted to see that case. As it happens when the case did turn up I didn't think it was very strong, but that wasn't something I knew at the time.

And you never answered me: what is your role, since you're claiming? Why claim just flavor?

I am just a townie, as in a vanilla townie. I figured that would be apparent as I assume that if someone has a special role they will be called "US Doctor", for example, as opposed to "US Townie".

Are you US Blacklister, or US Town Blacklister?

[ThAdmiral]

If the bunnylover slip was such a big deal why wasn't it brought up when fuzzy claimed basically the same thing?

I'd be happier with an EGL lynch at the moment. I didn't like all the "do you want me to replace out" stuff. Egl - if you didn't want to come under suspicion you should have contributed more earlier, not just posted when you had to because of a prod. And you still haven't explained why you went from asking why I was still alive to saying you weren't interested in my wagon any more.

[ThAdmiral]

@ThAd. I actually meant to address that. I thought it would have been obvious with AmRun and Llama as the new top two. Perhaps I should open up a twitter account and link it to this game.

So you're not suspicious of me because you became suspicious of the people who were pushing my lynch, right?

I contributed at the beginning and then yeah I had disappeared for a bit. It's frustrating when people are complaining about you posting and trying to actually get back into the game after you get your second prod. Really frustrating when you look back and see the same people didn't like it you were away either. At that point it's just a kind of what are you supposed to do.

I understand, this game can be very frustrating at times.
But it sounds like you were choosing not to post rather than being inactive because of external factors. You admit that as soon as you got the prods you posted because you realised you had to, but why did it come to that? Why was there such a dead patch where you weren't contributing anything but a couple of narky comments? Why did it take focused pressure for you to come out of your shell?

And ThAd, if you're not voting for me and want me lynched then you probably should vote for me instead of waiting around to see if a wagon on me happens like AmRun and LlamaFluff and Lowell. Lowell seems to have completely forgotten about me. AmRun tried to push for a wagon on me without voting me and I think Llama did, too. I'm not entirely sure if he said he wanted an EGL lynch or not and will need to reread. I remember Lowell mentioning it in one of his short posts.

Yeah it doesn't look like llama or amrum are going to get lynched.

unvote
vote: egl

@ EVERYBODY: Deadline is in about 2 days. The options now appear to be gonnano, egl or bunnylover. Make a choice.

[ThAdmiral]

^^ I thought it was strange when fuzzy said that, but I didn't realize he was a replacement for the previous guy, probably since I replaced in myself, so I didn't crosscheck it.

Fair enough.

I didn't like it when he said, it, though, and I voted for him then. That was more of a pressure, vote, whereas now I think bunny is actually guilty, most likely.

For me, the combination of the "no flavor" claim and the slip are truly significant.

I wouldn't put too much stock in to the "no flavor" bit. I only have a sentence of flavor myself. You might have more since you have a power role? Who knows - in any case I don't think it is the strongest thing to base a case off.

ThAdmiral, I actually did bring up Fuzzy's claim in a very negative way (Post 441), but because he wasn't here to respond, it kind of got shuffled underneath the fold.

Make's sense.

I think that's one of several slips on this page by the jvw/fuzzy/bunny slot.

What were some of the other slips?

My 2cents: it looks like bad wording by julienwolfe. I don't think it's a slip. I also think it is funny (suspicious) that according to Llama when the jvw/fuzzy/bunny slot does it is a definite scum-slip but when PI/amrum slot does it it's a genuine mistake and makes them more likely town if anything. *rolls eyes*

[ThAdmiral]

There is some serious misrepping of bunny going on. It's making me very uncomfortable. It seems as if people aren't really reading the thread properly, or are missing bits on purpose.

[ThAdmiral]

That being said, @ bunny: could you paraphrase your small bit of flavor?

[ThAdmiral]

Also yes gonnao is still scummy, but you do realized he just tried to shift the wagon off Bunny onto Amrun with the intent of lynching the other if one flips town.

Are you serious? He was suggesting nothing of the sort. He said: "So my preference would be to lynch McCarthy today, then lynch Che tomorrow unless we find out that the flavor is unreliable." I.e. only if amrum flips

scum

.

I'm convinced you can do nothing but misrep people in this game. I sincerely hope you are scum because you are playing terribly.


If it's out of amrum and bunny I will:

unvote
vote: amrum

I will be on before the deadline and will switch to bunny if needs be to ensure a lynch.

[ThAdmiral]

@ThAd: Explain to me why you think that move makes sense.

Which move? Me voting you?
Um, because I think you are the scummier of the two. You both have scum-sounding claims but your slot has been far more scummy throughout the game.

I mess up ThAd's casing sometimes, too, I think.

I've probably messed up ThAd too.

It's ok. I'm really not a stickler for casing. Plus its my fault for having such a weirdly cased name anyway.

How do you reconcile Bunny's total lack of flavor?

I only have a very short sentence of flavor as well, so I don't see it as all that relevant.

If they are American or Soviet, they will more then likely have ton of flavor.

^^

[ThAdmiral]

Yeah just checked that was hammer.

bunny: anything else to say? If you are town please post your reads on everyone. If you're scum don't bother.

[ThAdmiral]

@ThAd: But my slot has been active throughout the game and hers hasn't... so I don't think that's quite fair. But what I meant was not why you voted me at all, but why you voted me RIGHT THEN when it was pointless.

Depending on how other people had voted afterwards it may not have been pointless.

EGL IS SO INCREDIBLY SCUMMY
WHEN I GET NIGHTKILLED, PLEASE KILL HIM - WITH A ROPE

...or a knife, or whatever else is handy. Basically I support this.

[ThAdmiral]

Probably vig, given the other two targets.

It sounded like llama might have been the vig target, i.e. redcoyote's target.

So, it's probably one American and one Soviet scumteam?

Is it?

Flavor is pretty unreliable, that is pretty clear now. I still think amrum is a good choice. It strikes me as somewhat convenient that scum have apparently "blocked" her so she doesn't have to prove her power. I know if I was scum I wouldn't have spent my power on blocking amrum as there are bigger fish to fry like cops/docs/vigs etc.
I think the amrum/pi slot is getting away with a lot considering how much everyone seems to be happy to jump on to furc for what may or may not be a slip, especially considering that the amrum/pi slot had quite a few things that may have been slips.

Other than that... ghostwriter anyone?

[ThAdmiral]

She didn't say

scum

roleblocked her, though with a townie blocker lynched, it would be the most likely scenario. But I also agree that a silencer seems like a really strange role for scum to block. It may also have been some other role, like a jailor, who took Amrun out of the game for the night to see if a night kill would happen. Or Amrun could be lying. I'm afraid there's no way to check at this point in the game.

I would think it highly unlikely that a) we would have another town blocker, and b) that even if we did they (or a jk) would target amrum.
But you're right, I am going to remain suspicious of amrum until she can prove her role basically.

If, in hypothetical land, there was a silencer in the game and it was used on a player, it would show up on the vote count in a obvious manner.

Actually I am inclined to believe that amrum probably is a silencer after reading this. I don't see why sotty wouldn't have just said "no comment" otherwise.
Amrum could still be scum though, but much less likely, as I don't think she would have been targeted by a town blocker (if we have another one) or town jk.

OK, I lied.
I'm not a veteran. Can you imagine why I would fakeclaim that? I'm so mad right now. Do you all want me to claim? I don't believe it is in the best interest of the town for me to really claim. The person I claimed is truth, but the role is not. My alignment is town.

Why furc? Why?

I think scum role-blocking Amrun and going into the day with a "I don't buy it" attitude plan is a potential play here.

This is looking more likely.

As for Furcolow, he has been caught lying, and since it was his own fault he has no business being mad at anyone but himself about it. There is also another thing I wondered about when he claimed. Immediately after claiming Heydar Aliyev he claimed not to know much about his character. Why would he not? My role PM included a wikipedia link, and since ThAdmiral posted one in thread, I assume his did as well. Why would Furcolow not check his wikipedia link if he wanted to know about his character?

This is a good point. But it also applies retrospectively to amrum and the mix up with general macarthur. There's no way that mistake would have been made if she had checked the wiki page.
It is weird but people can just be lazy sometimes and not check wiki pages, I guess?

A veteran? You never said you were a veteran to begin with.

Furcolow actually DID say he was a veteran, by the way.

I am also for claiming. Like say I was a Bulletproof, what would that do to the setup? I have also heard of this role being called a Veteran. If I was a Veteran, and had two night lives, it might be wise to claim and setup a circle if there were direct ways of directing via whispering/personal messages. I do not see us having that ability here, so it might not be safe to put all of our pieces out on the table yet.

I was considering claiming Veteran publicly, but I am going to just sit back for now.

This, basically.

[ThAdmiral]

@Amrun: This is why Artem's post was stupid.

Thank you, your Highness, for taking the time out of your busy schedule to explain to us plain mortals why the posts by peasants, such as myself, are so stupid. For future reference, pointlessly discounting other players' posts as "stupid" and throwing fits (#1219 and #1231) are generally considered to be turd-tells and could be seen as a violation of rule #12.

Yeah, LMP has basically been doing this the entire game.

[ThAdmiral]

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... ding_Mafia Read at the bottom about gloating.

Holy crap!! Three dead?!

What does "removed from the bunker" mean?

A lot of jeeps tells still apply to this day amazingly, however they are not as effective as they used to be. There are quite a few that could go either way and some that are now pretty much considered town-tells.
In any case are you suggesting that because of this you think amrum is scum? And if so why aren't you voted her?

Furc is terrible at this game.

Yes. But I also honestly think he is a genius, and that the way he plays mafia is, in his own strange way, brilliant.
I wouldn't classify him as a village-idiot. I would classify him as a village-idiot-savant.

I'm sure I always say this, but I'll catch up. Just checking in to make sure I don't get replaced or soemthing.

It's a pity you don't post much because you have the potential to offer good insight.

Also @ everybody: seriously, ghostwriter. Anyone?

vote: ghostwriter

[ThAdmiral]

Thad, ghostwriter was replaced by hokum who is now dead.

Oh...

Unvote

[ThAdmiral]

The tell doesn't have to be gloating necessarily. It is more just mentioning the nightkills at all or expressing surprise or dismay about the nightkills.

[ThAdmiral]

Ghostwriter was town? I am surprised.

Yeah, I know.

[ThAdmiral]

I still think amrum shouldn't claim her target before night, especially now that I think amrum isn't scum.

Since llama and gw are dead I'm going to look at the people who pushed bunny over the apparent "slip".

[ThAdmiral]

Long post coming up....

Llama first brings it up:

GUYS WE ARE LYNCHING CLAIMED SCUM BUNNY NOW

My PM doesn't explicitly state whether or not there are town aligned players of different nationalities

, either. Moreover, I don't see why other role PMs should be any different since the rules regarding nationality and alignment are in the first post, or so, and they are clearly different concepts - something David doesn't seem to quite grasp, by his use of 'probably'. My feeling then, is that David is bullshitting in grand style.

@Amrun: Sorry I'm not good with history x-x.

My person is not of American or Soviet nationality

, I have no favor to back it up though. The favor I do have, anyone could have in their pm.

Let see.... JVW was replaced by fuzzy... who was replaced by bunny.

So bunny is "other" nationality, whos predicesors role specifically states is not told if they exist. I smell slip

Vote bunnylover

Amrum agrees:

I think that's one of several slips on this page by the jvw/fuzzy/bunny slot.

VOTE: bunnylover

Redcoyote agrees:

Absolutely agree with getting rid of Bunny.

Unvote

;

vote: Bunnylover

The interesting thing is that so far 2 of these are confirmed town, and the other is someone I consider very likely town. We continue...

LMP jumps on:

It's so funny. Everytime I have a thought in this game ThAd has the exact opposite. I swear to god...

Unvote
Vote: Bunnylover

DavidParker jumps on:

I look at these two wagons, and see more pro-town players on the Bunny wagon and more scummy players on the gonnano wagon.

Thus:

Unvote, vote: Bunnylover

LMP spots something odd about dp's vote:

Bunny-wagon prior to following DP posts:
Bunnylover - 4 - LlamaFluff, Amrun, RedCoyote, LynchMePls

I look at these two wagons, and see more pro-town players on the Bunny wagon and more scummy players on the gonnano wagon.

If I had mentioned everytime you pinged my scumdar... Needless to say you are in my top 3-4 atm. And this isn't an OMGUS. Just something I hadn't decided to point out as of yet, because there's scummier people to lynch.

So let me get this straight, you want to join a wagon that has Amrun (someone you've been pushing as scum all day) and me (someone you just said is in your top 3-4) because it has more town reads (althought you have a scum read on half the players) and the other has more scum reads? Yet you've pushed Amrun-scum all game and now you declare I'm in your top 3-4!? THIS DOES NOT COMPUTE!

The amount of mental acrobatics required in order for DP's thoughts to be town are staggering. DP's derailing of the ThAd wagon is completely suspect now.

Unvote
Vote: DP

bvoigt jumps on:

Good catch. This does look like a slip.

UNVOTE: gonnano
VOTE: Bunnylover

Smarg jumps on:

my role pm states that i am a town-aligned player from a non-US, nn-USSR country. thus I can dedduce that ther are other such players in the game because if the mod made it so i was the only one, thta'd be bstard. jvw/ffuzzy/bunny's slip is legit imo.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: bunny

Lowell jumps on:

unvote, vote bunny

gonna must be houdini or something.

nacho jumps on:

Unvote, Vote: Bunnylover

For refusing to give flavor

Furc jumps on:

dislike the roleblocker claim

unvote;
vote: bunnylover

sure, i've seen roleblocker as town, but i've seen it as scum 10x more

IPman jumps on:

Basically, the Che Guevara from the Cuban Missile Crisis would be one of the worst threats to peace imaginable, but in light of his later rift with the Soviets, I have trouble seeing him allied with anyone. The fact that Bunnylover gave his nationality as Cuban instead of Soviet also suggests this. The role sounds like it could be third party more than anything else.

Good point.

Unvote, Vote: Bunnylover

'sides, I would rather lynch a roleblocker than McCarthy, believe it or not, just based on flavor. I *can* see how a town silencer would be useful (being that scum's votes are typically more important because there's less of them), and I can also see how a Town RB is useful, but so much bothers me about the claim: the flavor name, the role itself, the fact that such a famous figure has "only 8 words of flavor"... something's up. Maybe it's even just me being flavor-biased (McCarthy being American and Che being non-American). I don't know if the slip is actually a slip or not, but something is bugging me about Bunny's claim.

Gonnanno jumps on:

"When forces of oppression come to maintain themselves in power against established law, peace is considered already broken."

That means that he considered his rebellions an effort to restore peace.

Also, he considered the United States an exploitative nation, broken beyond repair, that also happened to have nuclear weapons and wanted to attack Cuba. So of course he would want to use the missiles in defense of Cuba.

Look, you don't have to convince me that he's scummy. I was trying to decide which one could possibly be connected to the "threat to the peace" wincon, and it was an easier jump to make for Guevara than McCarthy.

None of it matters anyway, because Bunny is now basically the only viable lynch.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Bunny

EGL hammers:

unvote
Vote: Bunnylover

Hammer.

I want to make sure we get some kind of flip and info today.

On a town wagon of this size there has to be scum on it. I think the scummiest votes are the ones without any extra information that either simply agree with the flip or don't mention anything at all. These are the votes by LMP, bvoigt, smarg, lowell. Note that bvoigt, smarg and lowell votes came consecutively. They were also the 6th, 7th and 8th votes on (or 5th, 6th and 7th if you include lmp's switch to dp). It is extremely unlikely that a wagon could have got to its 8th/7th vote without scum jumping on, therefore I would say it is extremely likely that there is scum within the bvoigt, smarg and lowell group.

I also included lmp's analysis of dp's vote as it is indeed a seemingly inconsistent thing to say from davidparker.

Other things of note are gonnano's vote when he seemed to be far more supportive of an amrum lynch, and EGL's hammer when he also was far more supportive of an amrum lynch. These, however, don't ping my scumdar as much as a bunny lynch was more or less inevitable at this stage and scum would not feel compelled to jump on if they wanted to fly under the radar.


IN CONCLUSION:
- I think there is a VERY high possibility of at least one scum in the

bvoigt

,

smarg

and

lowell

group.
-

DavidParker

's reasoning for his vote was inconsistent with what he had said previously, and therefore he could be scum.

I'm going to look at bvoigt, smarg and lowell and will probably place my vote on one of them.

[ThAdmiral]

ThAd, any thoughts about how DP's role supposedly confirms yours, somehow?

I have no idea.

[ThAdmiral]

I still think amrum shouldn't claim her target before night, especially now that I think amrum isn't scum.

Why do you still think that announcing the target is a bad idea? Even if Amrun is blocked, the town doesn't lose much (chances are she won't be targeting scum, especially if she's scum herself), and it could potentially give the town some information.

Because I believe amrum is town, and that if the mafia want to tie up the roleblocker targeting her each night that's fine by me.

[ThAdmiral]

Thad: That makes sense, but don't you think it might be worth trading one night's worth of RB-tying-up for a chance at substantiating Amrun's claim to be a silencer? Even if you have a town read on her it could be useful to see.

I feel that eventually one of three things will happen:
1) mafia will decide not to block her on their own terms
2) the mafia roleblocker will be lynched/killed
3) the mafia will kill amrum

Basically I am happy to wait and let everything come out in the wash.

If I was lying about my powers, I would have picked a less scummy power than silencing. Ugh.

Stop polluting the game with your WIFOM trash.

Occam's Razor.

This.

[ThAdmiral]

THAD 1297 MAKES ME SO HAPPY! THANK YOU!

Well I'm glad at least one person read it.

@ david: can you please answer the queries revolving around your claim yesterday that there were "more pro-town players on the Bunny wagon and more scummy players on the gonnano wagon". I don't believe you've answered this satisfactorily.

[ThAdmiral]

Thad: your explanation about the target-claiming with amrun makes perfect sense ... considering that you think she's town. Because I don't think Amrun is town, I still don't share your opinion, but it's not because there's a problem with your position.

Cool. We'll just agree to disagree then.

Regarding post 1297, I think it makes good sense (and my pick out of the three is Lowell, for the record), but Amrun is higher on the list for me right now. Already people are starting to forget how scummy this slot has been, so I really can't see anything good out of waiting to lynch.

It is very unlikely amrum isn't getting lynched today. You mentioned lowell is your preferred pick out of the three I mentioned. Would you like to elaborate on that?

Thad, why aren't you voting?

Aren't I? Better fix that...

vote: davidparker

subject to change if he answers my question satisfactorily.

[ThAdmiral]

god he doesn't realize when I use no punctuation or proper capitalization and start the sentence with "god" I'm usually being facetious

I can vouch for this behavior from ip.

[ThAdmiral]

-Are jesters common in these sort of games?-

Not at all. And if furc wanted to get lynched he could have done so easily by now.

Still have yet to look at smarg, lowell and bvoigt. But I will!

[ThAdmiral]

@ dp: explain yourself, and explain the inconsistency yesterday if you want to avoid being lynched.

@ furc: you are acting the idiot though.
And you sooo know you are, don't even.

But this is exactly what I mean... when the day first started ThAd posted this:

It sounded like llama might have been the vig target, i.e. redcoyote's target.

Other than that... ghostwriter anyone?

which were exactly my thoughts reading through (RC vig'd Llama, and somebody else targeted GW). I think this is a major town-tell in ThAd's favor, because this scenario makes the most sense from a townie's point of you.

When I said "ghostwriter anyone" I was actually seeing if anyone wanted to jump aboard a gw wagon...

Because I hadn't realized gw had been replaced...



and then killed...

[ThAdmiral]

Iso on lowell (the easiest since he's posted the least):

looking pretty good tbh. Votes ghost a couple of times which I can't be unhappy with, and for good reasons to boot (reference his iso posts 0, 2, 3, 5 etc.). Says PI or gw wagon is better than a thad one - once again no complaints here.

In fact all up has been reasonable, pretty solid in the reads. Whenever he has changed to vote someone else has explained himself adequately.

I'm officially giving lowell the thad stamp of approval.

[ThAdmiral]

I've asked a few times but you haven't satisfactorily explained yesterdays inconsistency.

[ThAdmiral]

bvoigt iso:

Not finding too much bad stuff so far. The first thing I found that was quite weird was his questioning my wagon all day and then in iso 19 he says: "Anyway, after reading LMP's case and doing a more thorough ISO, I'd say ThAd is fairly likely to be scum." and votes for me. Shortly after he unvotes and votes gonnano, but I feel like it could be a scum-motivated play: question a potential mislynch on me earlier in the day, and then later in the day when the options are running out jumping on me because it looked like a lynch on me could be pushed through.

Ok, getting a bit more interesting. Switches back and forth between me and amrum a bunch of times between isos 21 and 24, always seeming to jump on the one that looks more likely to be lynched. Finally jumps on the bunnylover wagon for the slip-that-wasn't-actually-a-slip.
Recently has jumped on both the furc and dp wagons.

In summary: while he has been pretty consistent with his suspicion for gonnano, generally is always voting for the person who is most likely to be lynched, i.e. shamelessly bandwagonning.

Verdict: could well be scum.

[ThAdmiral]

You read it wrong.

No, you read it wrong.

@ThAdmiral: Somewhere around my ISO #20 on D1, I decided it was time to get a flip, and switched around between several people who seemed pretty likely to be scum.

This may be true. But you've bandwaggoned since then as well.

Because I'm new here and I like to be friendly to people. Seriously why is this even coming up in this game. I've been playing with you and iPie from a month or so now so I though I'd wish you a happy birthday. Dont worry though, I won't do the same for you next year, furc.

Besides your reasoning is completely off. I've been against you all game. I have no motives to get on your good side in this game.

This comes across as properly genuine.
You've hurt his feelings furc. Congrats.

[ThAdmiral]

Smarg iso:

post 1 contains a stretch imo, to make furc seem scum and to bolster her case against furc at this point in time. I'll quote the post in full to explain what I am talking about:

That post from Furc is just bad. First, while town could gain some information from speculating on the setup at this point in the game, there is no way that town gains more information than scum does. Giving scum information is only good if you give town more information.

Then let's look at the Ivy vote. Ivy is scum because she hasn't posted a wall of text yet - on page 3, when the game has been open for less than 24 hours. Leaving validity of meta arguments aside, it is unreasonable to expect a wall at this point in the game. Furthermore,

saying

that the lack of a wall post is the motivation behind your vote means that if Ivy is scum, all she has to do is manufacture a wall post and she'll be cleared as town in Furc's view.

Consider also this snippet from Furc's wall:

I am suspicious of LlamaFluff for his black/white reaction to the RQS. Only siths deal in absolutes, kind of thing. The townie reaction, in my opinion, is more along the lines of what Scott Brosius said. He was confused, wishy-washy on it, and then voted me.

So you, as town presumably, posted something to which the townie reaction is to vote you? How is that pro-town? Hint: It's not.

UNVOTE: jmj
VOTE: Furc

The first two points are fine: setup speculation is anti-town, invalid reason for voting ivy. The third point, however, is a bit ridiculous. Furc was quite clearly saying that he would expect a townie to not be so sure of themselves, but ultimately to vote the person they think was most likely scum. Smarg tries to turn this around in to furc admitting that he's anti-town. As I said, it's a stretch.

Questions case on me, ok. Votes gw, ok.

Post 13: Votes jmj when she had been pretty hard on PI for a while. Shows an inconsistency of behavior.

Post 16: Talking about showing an inconsistency of behavior... Votes me. Why? "While the early wagon/case didn't look that great, neither did ThAd's response to said case". Well then why didn't you bring it up earlier instead of only mentioning me to ask Nacho why I was scummy? Now it's starting to look like she is going after whoever she thinks most likely to be lynched.

Goes after amrum after the mccarthy claim. That's fine.

post 43: Jumps on bunny for the slip-that-wasn't-actually-a-slip. Once again arguably looking for the easy lynch.

post 53: thinks amrum is scum because of her opening post. We later find out that this is because she committed the amishtell. Fair enough.

Goes after furc for lying. Understandable. She had said that she believed furc was town yesterday, but that was mainly name related, and it would make sense that after che came up town she revised her belief in name-to-alignment validity.

Most recently builds a case against stephoscope. I don't really have a problem with it but she seemed pretty sure that furc was scum, so I don't really understand why she would jump off him.

Overall: Some good things and some bad. Made sensible cases for the most part, but (similarly to bvoigt) often looked to be chasing the biggest wagon. I know that a lot of people just wanted a flip yesterday, but that doesn't mean the scum weren't also chasing wagons and wanting people to be lynched. It was also the

way

she jumped from one person to another, which sometimes seemed inconsistent with what she had said earlier.

Verdict: Could well be scum.


Out of the three I would say lowell is prob-town and the other two are prob-scum. As for who to vote my head says bvoigt but my heart says smarg. I'm a go with the heart kind of guy.

vote: smarg

@ dp: I know I'm not voting you anymore, but seriously - could you please answer my question?

[ThAdmiral]

I would just really like him to address it.

At the same time I feel like smarg/bvoigt are more likely to be scum based on my analysis.

[ThAdmiral]

I ignored it too.

[ThAdmiral]

Have you been pming players from the game? I mean, that just opens the floodgates. However genuine that is could easily be faked. If you don't view that as null, I really don't know what to say, bro.

Well if you don't think he was genuinely just trying to do something nice in this mafia community, then I don't know what to say to you.

[ThAdmiral]

I normally wouldn't ask like this but 4 people in an 11 player game I am hosting just dropped out/were deactivated for cheating.

Would anyone be willing to replace in? here's a link

[ThAdmiral]

It's not. Soz. But some very excellent people (you included) have filled the slots so you won't hear another word about it!

[ThAdmiral]

Sad to see artem go. His posts were concise and logical. IP was also on my more-likely-town-than-scum list.

A lot of people are saying they think smarg is scum but no one is voting for her.
C'mon guys lets give the smargwagon a try - it's got a good chance of being pushed through to an actual lynch (unlike so many other wagons in this game so far), and has a very good chance of hitting scum. It's a win-win!

[ThAdmiral]

OK, could someone fill me in on the current issues, summaries of the cases behind the leading wagons etc? I don't want to be essentially inactive for what will probably be close to a week before I get caught up entirely.

Furc wagon - he keeps lying about shit basically
Dp wagon - Furc was about to be lynched and lmp pointed this out:

Furc, you suck. You had this lynch coming. Stop your all caps/rage as if it's town's fault/mistake (if you are town), it's your own bloody fault for this mess.

"Yes you're a mislynch, and I recognize that, but it's your own fault, so you can't complain."

DP is scum.

Unvote
Vote: DP

People should seriously switch here. DP is obviously scum. I mean seriously, look at the language here. "you had this lynch coming". Wow.

Smarg wagon - ok this isn't really a wagon per se, but it could/should be!
The reason for it is in two parts Part One: where I look at the bunny wagon that lead to his lynch because of a slip-that-wasn't-actually-a-slip, and Part Two: where I iso smarg and decide that out of the potential scum candidates she is the best bet.

[ThAdmiral]

I'm REALLY glad to see you and DDD, considering the amount of flack I have been receiving. Even if you all decide on me, I know that my win condition will be achieved.

Are you implying that you are town, and that you somehow

know

both vpbaltar and ddd are town? Or is it that your win condition requires vpbaltar and ddd to be achieved???

What's the current game state? Any confirmed townies I should know about? Any confirmed scum I should know about?

VV

OK, could someone fill me in on the current issues, summaries of the cases behind the leading wagons etc? I don't want to be essentially inactive for what will probably be close to a week before I get caught up entirely.

Furc wagon - he keeps lying about shit basically
Dp wagon - Furc was about to be lynched and lmp pointed this out:

Furc, you suck. You had this lynch coming. Stop your all caps/rage as if it's town's fault/mistake (if you are town), it's your own bloody fault for this mess.

"Yes you're a mislynch, and I recognize that, but it's your own fault, so you can't complain."

DP is scum.

Unvote
Vote: DP

People should seriously switch here. DP is obviously scum. I mean seriously, look at the language here. "you had this lynch coming". Wow.

Smarg wagon - ok this isn't really a wagon per se, but it could/should be!
The reason for it is in two parts Part One: where I look at the bunny wagon that lead to his lynch because of a slip-that-wasn't-actually-a-slip, and Part Two: where I iso smarg and decide that out of the potential scum candidates she is the best bet.

[ThAdmiral]

You did have less pages to read though...

[ThAdmiral]

Well the amished-tell can go fuck itself.

If I'd been here when amrum was being speedwagoned I would have railed against it.
That being said I am surprised, and sad, that my town-read artem turned out to be scum. I am not so surprised about nacho and ip/ddd.

Furthermore, given who has been killed I would say only the assassin could be a town vig, but is most likely sk.


The flips make me even more certain of my suspicions regarding the bunny wagon. The wagon up to 7 now looks like this:

Bunnylover

- 13 -

LlamaFluff

,

Amrun

,

RedCoyote

, bvoigt, smargaret, Lowell,

Nachomamma8

If there isn't scum in that group I will eat my hat. Nay, I will eat everybody's hats.

vote: smargaret

[ThAdmiral]

ThAd, why are you only considering the wagon up to 7?

I don't believe I've ever seen a wagon up to 7 without scum on it.

[ThAdmiral]

vote gonna

while I catch up. Whenever someone plays the "whoa is me!" card over and over, yet somehow never dies, that's a problem.

I think you mean "woe is me".

BTW, I have no reason to believe ThAd is town, that was all baloney earlier. There was something in his post when he claimed that looked like a town tell, but I have no role-related info to him being town. However, I still feel he is probable town.

Why couldn't you just have pointed out the town tell and left it at that? Why pretend you had role-related information?

[ThAdmiral]

Can we stop spreading the votes around?

@ dp: scott is not going to be lynched today. Accept it.

Smarg today, bvoigt tomorrow - let's do this.

[ThAdmiral]

Smarg today, bvoigt tomorrow - let's do this.

Does your plan change depending on how smargaret flips?

Cross bridge when come to it.

[ThAdmiral]

Flavour?

[ThAdmiral]

Would it make sense to say that, regardless of Smarg's alignment, there's probably some sort of scum on the Smarg wagon IFF there are two scum groups?

Who do you suggest is scum on the wagon?

UNVOTE: smargaret

Brandt does look pretty peaceful.

LOL. Having succeeded wonderfully with a couple of 'That sounds like a warlike name!1!' wagons, are we going to see a wagon die on the basis of 'that sounds like a peaceful name?' I mean, don't get me wrong, i don't really see how anything smarg has done is worse than the equivalent actions from DP. But letting someone you think is scum off the hook because of their name... man.

This.

If smarg's neighbor/scumbuddy decides to confirm smarg's claim, then we can be pretty certain that the two people are linked. If one of the two later flips mafia, then we've got a guaranteed scum. So I think that would be a good idea to move forward with.

Not true. It could be a town-mafia neighbor relationship.

ThAd, the flavor I have is in my claim post. I don't want to go to war, and I believe that my neighbor buddy doesn't want to either. Why didn't you see this?

I was hoping there might be more, or that if you were scum you might feel pressured to make up more.
I also seem to remember you were one of the people going after bunnylover for not having that much flavor. What gives? That seems like hypocrisy on your part.

However...I believe your claim.

Unvote

New plan: bvoigt today, gonnano tomorrow.

vote: bvoigt

[ThAdmiral]

I feel the neighbor situation will sort itself out; come out in the wash, if you will. Also as someone said earlier it is very often not a fake-claim.

[ThAdmiral]

Omg such a ridiculous spread of votes!!!

[ThAdmiral]

...and then changed his claim again. And again.

[ThAdmiral]

So, you know, standard Furculow fare.

[ThAdmiral]

So who do you think IS scum?

[ThAdmiral]

Then lets lynch gonna, finally. He's been asking for it all game.

Alright.
He's someone everyone seems to be happy with lynching, but has never been in real danger of a lynch.

vote: gonnano

New plan:
Gonnano today, bvoigt tomorrow.

[ThAdmiral]

Ad

, top 3 scum reads plz, excluding gonnano and bvoigt

Wait, so you want my scum picks 3-5?

Um, ok.

Probably smarg, stephoscope, feysal. But I don't really have any reasoning behind it other than smarg. The other two I just have gut scum reads on more than the rest.

[ThAdmiral]

I forgot egl. He's up there too.

[ThAdmiral]

Chill out xscorp.

[ThAdmiral]

Feysal for gods sake vote for someone.

[ThAdmiral]

Yeah if you claim and information role you MUST give results and reasons why you chose those people.

[ThAdmiral]

I am always suspicious when people claim information roles and then because they have been unlucky aren't able to provide any information to the town. In any case there is also reason why a scum would have chosen those targets - artem to find the doc, furc to find the vig.

I'm going to keep my vote where it is.

[ThAdmiral]

Feysel certainly did not provide all that much.
He has hardly voted

this entire game

.

[ThAdmiral]

Umm, I think that's because smargaret claimed dude.

[ThAdmiral]

Things to note after the flip:

Artem (i.e. vp baltar) and gonnano were both on mothrax/jmj (i.e. fonz) day 1. It is therefore unlikely fonz was on the same team as them.

The last two votes on the bunnylover lynch were gonnano and then egl. It is therefore unlikely EGL was on the same team as gonnano.

[ThAdmiral]

@Thad, did we ever find out who Smarg's supposed neighbor is?

No I don't believe we did. Why are you asking just me though?

you'd have to look at unvoting with your jmj wagon point. when did those guys unvote? did they deter the wagon with their unvoting?

what's stopping scum from voting back to back on a hammer? I disagree with that clearing them as being buddies. Also, with 2 scum teams, isn't EGL not being on the same team as gonnano a reason TO vote him? We need to eliminate from the team of 4, not from gonnano's team.

I'm not discounting them completely, but it is a good indication they are not on the same team.

[ThAdmiral]

And yes with 2 teams they could still be scum independently.

[ThAdmiral]

Umm, I think that's because smargaret claimed dude.

Because you're the one who pointed out smarg claimed.

What?
As far as I remember it smarg claimed, and because of that people stopped voting her. I'll going to check back to confirm this.

[ThAdmiral]

Yep that's how it happened.

[ThAdmiral]

I'm cool with a feysal lynch.

vote: feysal

[ThAdmiral]

Another lovely spread of votes...
Another day that feysal isn't voting...

[ThAdmiral]

What happened to the feysal wagon?

If people don't come back I'll join the fonz wagon. If it's good enough for BotS, Lowell and LMP...

[ThAdmiral]

What he said ^^

[ThAdmiral]

Things to note after the flip:

Artem (i.e. vp baltar) and gonnano were both on mothrax/jmj (i.e. fonz) day 1. It is therefore unlikely fonz was on the same team as them.

The last two votes on the bunnylover lynch were gonnano and then egl. It is therefore unlikely EGL was on the same team as gonnano.

I can see the logic behind the first two statements since jmj/mothrax was getting to the threshold of being a viable counter wagon; but the second comment I don't think is sound because it falls into the WIFOM category. I haven't really seen actual suspicion cast in other games based (especially D1) for end of the wagon relationships.

I think any conjecture is based on WIFOM to some extent.

[ThAdmiral]

Back on feysal guys!

[ThAdmiral]

That's not the point furc. You're not voting him, and you should be voting him.

[ThAdmiral]

It would make a lot of flavour sense if one of the neighbors was indeed scum. The whole "they could be your neighbors" paranoia aspect of the cold war does come to mind.

[ThAdmiral]

Hi,

I'm just in the last week of term, a few crazy assignments left but I'll try read through in my own time.

Anyone care to point out the major events and what I should be watching out for .. else it's going to be a skim for most of the (ouch) 70+ pages.

People like you are heroes.

It's hard to summarize this game as it's changed tack quite a few times. I'll try to work on something of a summary for you though.

[ThAdmiral]

Well. Get on one then.

Don't be a feysal and just not vote anyone.

[ThAdmiral]

I like that. To "feysal" is to abstain from voting from basically the entire game.

It's a verb. Eg: "He's totally been feysalling for the last three days!" or "Omg, he just feysalled hardcore!"

[ThAdmiral]

Fonz, I was looking at my role pm when I wrote that post. Furthermore, Erich Honnecker cannot be Soviet in nationality - that just wasn't true.

It just strikes me as a really, really bizarre kind of mistake for a remotely competent scum player to make.

It's not so obvious that it would definitely have been picked up. I doubt if smarg hadn't mentioned it anyone else would have noticed.

[ThAdmiral]

Hate to be feysalling but...

People using my term. Yes!

That's a good point, Sathoris, it makes me not even want to be Fey-stalling with my vote

Oh snap, that's even better...


In other news:

@The Fonz- I have no idea why David Parker lied. Why do you think he lied?

The most obvious explanation would be to protect his buddy ThAd.

The second most obvious is to buddy up to ThAd-town

. Both of those are more likely than 'He really thought ThAd was town and it was worth the risk' because the risk there is HUGE for town.

So, by the bolded part above, you know ThAd is town?

This is a terrible twisting of words.

[ThAdmiral]

So it's either simply gigantic literacy failure...

[ThAdmiral]

And, to anyone reading, is there a difference?

No, clearly there isn't. The only thing you've changed is to add the word 'scum' to 'buddy' in the second one, but 'buddy' in this context so blatantly obviously means scumbuddy that no reasonable person would interpret it any other way. No one in a mafia game to my knowledge has ever said 'X is Y's buddy' and meant that they were literally friends.

This is truth.

[ThAdmiral]

To be fair to feysal he isn't posting elsewhere. I think a replacement is in order....


Or we could just lynch him and move on!

[ThAdmiral]

^^

[ThAdmiral]

You do look town, lowell.

I am up for a smarg, sathoris or egl lynch today. In that order, although I'm not really all that picky.

[ThAdmiral]

I'm currently deciding which of The Fonz or Enigma is the best lynch for today.

The Fonz - you willing to help me lynch Enigma today?

Enigma - you willing to help me lynch The Fonz today?

This sounds your just going to go for the lynch that's easiest.

@ThAd- Where did your list of Sathoris, Smarg , or Enigma come from?

I've changed my mind about bvoigt, and these are the only other people I think are scum.

PeregrineV's charts are bad. There's no analysis (this has been pointed out), and what's more, he only indicates scum and includes players currently living. Furc is on there twice, JMJ/Mothrax is on there but Fonz is listed separately, he doesn't list who's voted me, they're just bad. It's a transparent attempt to look like he's providing content.]

I think it's ridiculous that you're voting him for making some effort, and for having a few errors in the charts. He said he was going to comment on the findings at a later stage when he could.

Posting the raw data indicates a desire to be seen doing the analysis, rather than just doing the analysis. as in 'HAI GUYZ LOOK AT ALL THIS WORK I'M PUTTING IN, I COULDN'T POSSIBLY BE SCUM!' I've seen Adel blind towns with charts and statistics enough times as scum to be very wary of it. That said, the real acid test is if he comes up with something original or interesting as a result of this.

^^

Edit: I just realized I was feysalling...

vote: smargret

[ThAdmiral]

I can't remember. I think it was based on your interactions with flipped scum.

[ThAdmiral]

Also, would we benefit from a mass name claim?

Based on the flips so far...possibly?

[ThAdmiral]

btw...

Lowell
Furcolow
BotS
Thad

voting bloc?

We really need to get our shit together.

[ThAdmiral]

I have now some more unlikely scum pairs which I shall share with you for curiosity's sake.
Scott/Smarg
Bvoight/Smarg

Why not vote smarg then?

[ThAdmiral]

I have now some more

unlikely

scum pairs which I shall share with you for curiosity's sake.
Scott/Smarg
Bvoight/Smarg

Why not vote smarg then?

Those are players unlikely to be scum pairs from my perspective.

Oh, nvm.

And Lowell brings up a superb point Thad.

But that would be hard...

[ThAdmiral]

to make a good case that is.

[ThAdmiral]

So sir ...
How about maybe .... umm i dunno .. at least like decide if you still think smarg is scum based on what Scott posted, which I've quoted and/or offer more reasons as to why we should be on smarg.

Btw can someone give me a run down of Fonz. When reading 10 billion pages, and having the same person post 1000000000 words for something that can be said in a few sentences I kinda started skimming his stuff.
Do people think he is scummy or just a townie who loves to blind us all with walls.

I think your points on smarg are good. And I probably should make a case, but so often when I have done stuff like that in this game people have ignored it anyway so it's sort of hard to find the motivation.

In any case the people that aren't voting should be voting!!!

re: fonz - he's just hard to read in general. His walls are annoying though.

[ThAdmiral]

Alright...

[ThAdmiral]

Still here but busy. Will post tomorrow night. Promise!

[ThAdmiral]

My case on smarg is mainly going to be based on vote counts for now.
I have selected a few from sotty's official vote counts, although there are probably other situations I am missing out on that happened between vote counts. Alas.

I will more or less be looking at any large-ish wagon that had smarg on it. A major part of my theory is that when a wagon gets to around 4-5 there is bound to be at least one scum on it, especially in a game of this size and with multiple scum teams.
Anyway, to the analysis:

jmj3000 - 5 -

DavidParker,

LynchMePls

,

Ghostwriter

, smargaret,

LlamaFluff

This is not 100% damning as we don't know the alignment of DP, but if DP turns out to be town (and I do lean towards DP/peregrine being town) this will look a whole lot worse for smarg.

ThAdmiral - 8 -

Nachomamma8

, EGL,

LynchMePls

,

LlamaFluff

, smargaret,

GhostWriter

,

Amrun

,

Feysal

Once again, we don't know EGL's alignment so this isn't completely dammning. But come on! One of them basically has to be scum.

Amrun

- 10 -

XScorpion

, Beasts of the Sea,

Stephoscope

, bvoigt,

RedCoyote

, ThAdmiral, smargaret, mothrax, DavidParker,

Scott Brosius

This has a bunch of unknowns on it, but is a good example of a normal wagon. Note the amount of confirmed scum on it. Once again: this is a good example of a normal wagon, because like a normal wagon there is scum on it.

ThAdmiral - 9 -

Nachomamma8

, EGL,

LynchMePls

,

LlamaFluff

,

GhostWriter

,

Amrun

,

Feysal

, bvoigt, smargaret

Once again EGL and bvoigt don't make this cut and dried, but common-sense and logic suggest that on a wagon of similar size to the one on amrun above there

has

to be scum on this.

Bunnylover

- 13 -

LlamaFluff

,

Amrun

,

RedCoyote

, bvoigt, smargaret, Lowell,

Nachomamma8

,

Stephoscope

, DavidParker, Furcolow,

InflatablePie

,

gonnano

, EGL

This is one of the wagons I have used before in analysis. My argument then, as it is now, is that there is basically no way this wagon got to 7 votes (i.e. before stephoscope got on it) with just town votes.

Furcolow - 8 -

Scott Brosius

, DavidParker,

XScorpion

,

InflatablePie

,

Stephoscope

, smargaret, bvoigt,

LynchMePls

Once again a couple of unknowns makes this hard for analysis directly relating to smarg, but it is just another good example that when a wagon gets to 8 you can bet your house that THERE IS SCUM ON IT!!!

Amrun

- 11 -

VP Baltar

, bvoigt,

Nachomamma8

, smargaret, Furcolow,

Debonair Danny DiPietro

,

LynchMePls

, Beasts of the Sea,

Stephoscope

, DavidParker, EGL

I'm still angry about this wagon. The unknowns make it useless for analysis, but it is still worth mentioning that smarg was indeed on it - so on both town lynches so far.

gonnano

- 9 -

bvoigt, Lowell, ThAdmiral,

LynchMePls

,

Scott Brosius

,

Stephoscope

, Furcolow, smargaret, Beasts of the Sea

Scum even love getting on scum wagons, as you can see here. Another thing to note (without actually looking back to see what was happening at the time) is that is interesting that smarg took so long to get on this wagon when I'm pretty sure she was calling gonnano scum for a while before that.

Feysal

- 8 -

ThAdmiral, smargaret,

Stephoscope

, bvoigt,

LynchMePls

,

Scott Brosius

, Lowell, Furcolow

Once again a lot of unknowns, but it is worth mentioning that smargaret has been involved in every single town lynch. In fact she has been involved in all the lynches full stop.

[ThAdmiral]

The other names that kept popping up were EGL, bvoigt and davidparker. In particular The 2nd and 4th wagons that I highlighted above put EGL in an especially bad light given that he is the only unknown on them up to 4 and 7 (!) votes.

Next lynch must come from one of these three imo. With a huge priority on Smarg or EGL.

[ThAdmiral]

ebwop: next lynch must come from one of these *four*.

[ThAdmiral]

what do people think about sathoris, peregrinev, and lowell?
wouldnt be surprised to see scum in the unvoting ranks

I'm pretty sure that's what pg is suggesting. Althought I thought the same about feysal and...
Basically I think it is flawed reasoning that is along the same lines as "lynch-all-lurkers". Not all lurkers are scum, similarly not all people who haven't received many votes/have (arguably) flown under the radar are scum.

A good "compromise", if you will, however is bvoigt. He tends to look scummy in both mine and Pg's analysis.

I'd be willing to vote for the sake of some consensus.

[ThAdmiral]

The other names that kept popping up were EGL, bvoigt and davidparker. In particular The 2nd and 4th wagons that I highlighted above put EGL in an especially bad light given that he is the only unknown on them up to 4 and 7 (!) votes.

Next lynch must come from one of these three imo. With a huge priority on Smarg or EGL.

Because there can't be wagons that are purely town? Surely that logic is faultless?

Pretty much.

In all seriousness such a thing probably happens, but it is extremely unlikely that a wagon would get to 7 or more votes without a single scum on it.

[ThAdmiral]

@ peregrine: I'm gonna jump in here because I think your line of argument is bad. Firstly people can't choose how much they are voted. If they could scum would choose never to be voted. Secondly not all scum play alike. At all.

[ThAdmiral]

The other names that kept popping up were EGL, bvoigt and davidparker. In particular The 2nd and 4th wagons that I highlighted above put EGL in an especially bad light given that he is the only unknown on them up to 4 and 7 (!) votes.

Next lynch must come from one of these three imo. With a huge priority on Smarg or EGL.

Because there can't be wagons that are purely town? Surely that logic is faultless?

Lol, I just realized that EGL is no longer in this game, and has been replaced by Enigma. With that in mind this comes across as super defensive.

vote: enigma

@ fonz: there are already 2 people on enigma, and I believe more could be convinced. Enigma today, smarg tomorrow?

Also...

Claiming

I propose that, should the surviving vig die or be forced to claim, the town should massclaim immediately, with the vig claimant starting the popcorn if he's still alive. Thoughts?

Sounds reasonable to me.

[ThAdmiral]

Because Bvoigt is scum.

And if the entire case on me rests on how my predecessor voted ... surely you jest right? Maybe we should lynch you.

Wow, this also comes off as really defensive.

[ThAdmiral]

And again, everyone currently feysalling needs to vote so we know where we stand.

Omg so true!

(Lowell - I hate you right now)

10th vote count of day 5

smargaret - 1 -

The Fonz

Sathoris - 1 -

bvoigt

PeregrineV - 2 -

smargaret, Beasts of the Sea

bvoigt - 2 -

Enigma, Sathoris

Enigma - 2 -

Furcolow, ThAdmiral

Beasts of the sea - 1 -

PeregrineV

Not voting - 1 -

Lowell

Holy shit can we ever get more than 2 votes on someone? EVER?!! ANYONE?!??

[ThAdmiral]

Town is totally going to lose this game because of retarded voting. Everyone is so goddamn stubborn!

[ThAdmiral]

@ fonz: there are already 2 people on enigma, and I believe more could be convinced. Enigma today, smarg tomorrow?

Or, as an alternative, PV or Enigma today and the other tomorrow?

If you are happy getting on enigma, then get on enigma. We need to consolidate votes.

[ThAdmiral]

Lowell
Furcolow
BotS
Thad

voting bloc?

We really need to get our shit together.

This is still on offer btw.

In fact Fonz also gets an invite for recent good participation.

[ThAdmiral]

@ mod: did you make an error in the opening post, or is gonnano indeed soviet mafia as opposed to Hungarian soviet mafia?

[ThAdmiral]

We should start with Enigma or Smarg. And then vote the other one of enigma or smarg.

They are scummy regardless of the name claiming, and the fact that the name claiming makes them even more logical targets is just icing on the cake.

[ThAdmiral]

@ThAd: Do you think the setup is likely to be symmetrical with regard to capitalist and communist roles, or not?

I don't know. I know that when I'm mod I try to make it as hard as possible to "outguess" me, so assymetrical is definitely a possibility.

[ThAdmiral]

I want to believe in the 2 scum left theory. But 4 scum left is probably more likely. Unless the two remaining US scum have quite a bit of power.

[ThAdmiral]

Ok with four left, and given all we know about nationalities and such, can you give your scumreads?

8 ThAdmiral - town
10 Furcolow - town
11 Lowell - town

22 The Fonz - prob-town
6 PeregrineV - prob-town

1 Beasts of the Sea - unsure
18 bvoigt - unsure
24 Sathrois - unsure

13 smargaret - scum
4 Enigma - scum

But wouldn't that make them overpowered relative to the three flipped soviets?

I actually was thinking there could be 4 soviets and 3 US scum, but the 3 US scum have more power. So that would mean 3 scum left.
It is true that if there is only 2 US scum left they are probably both goons.

[ThAdmiral]

Based on 3+1 scum teams, Enigma, smargaret, and Beasts are the remainder of the US team? And bvoigt would be the remaining Soviet?

That sounds about right, although probably sathoris before bots.

As expected, this has turned into an "outguess-the-mod" fest rather than a scumhunting one.

I'm surprised it's taken this long to be honest.

[ThAdmiral]

No way are we lynching the guy who is clearly trying in this game, who is posting this game when hardly anyone else seems to be bothered, when there are much MUCH better options out there.

[ThAdmiral]

Yeah my invitation of joining the voting bloc is officially revoked from BotS. And is re-extended to fonz.
Lowell and Furc are, as always, welcome.

[ThAdmiral]

In fact...

@ peregrine: I don't agree with you on a lot of things but I like the cut of your jib. Consider yourself invited into the voting bloc!

[ThAdmiral]

ThAd, do you agree with this statement?

There is fairly obviously an American Mafioso hidden in the claimed Soviets. You can say what you want about outguessing the mod, but it is simply not fair to have two more soviet town than American town for the Soviet scum to hide in.

This is probably right. Unless there are 4 soviet and 3 us.

[ThAdmiral]

targets?

[ThAdmiral]

unvote

I believe enigma. Sounds genuine.

We have three or so days.

I still believe in my votecount analysis.

vote: smarg

[ThAdmiral]

Whatever happened to your "we should lynch one person from this group, even if it's me"?

[ThAdmiral]

The question is more like, do we lynch Beasts today, and if he is town, I'll shut up and be the lynch tomorrow. Wouldn't that be groovy?
No more me and my craaaaaaazzzzzzzzyyyyyyyyy ideas.

No way are we lynching the guy who is clearly trying in this game, who is posting this game when hardly anyone else seems to be bothered, when there are much MUCH better options out there.

From context ThAdmiral, I assume you are talking about me in this quote... but what happened in the next five hours that ejected me from the so called voting block? That seems like a pretty drastic (and unwarranted) turn around.

Eh. You'd been teetering on the edge for a while.

[ThAdmiral]

Also 2 days until deadline.

[ThAdmiral]

ThAd - weren't EGL and Bvoigt the other two who came off poorly in your VCA?

They are, but you aren't voting either of them.

[ThAdmiral]

I have faith in them to stand up when we need them most.

[ThAdmiral]

For great justice.

[ThAdmiral]

The question is more like, do we lynch Beasts today, and if he is town, I'll shut up and be the lynch tomorrow. Wouldn't that be groovy?
No more me and my craaaaaaazzzzzzzzyyyyyyyyy ideas.

No way are we lynching the guy who is clearly trying in this game, who is posting this game when hardly anyone else seems to be bothered, when there are much MUCH better options out there.

From context ThAdmiral, I assume you are talking about me in this quote... but what happened in the next five hours that ejected me from the so called voting block? That seems like a pretty drastic (and unwarranted) turn around.

Woah, reading comprehension fail by me.

Now

I realise what you were asking here. The answer is: no, I was referring to peregrine. I.e. he was the one who was "clearly trying in this game" etc.

[ThAdmiral]

Fonz when you talked with PeregrineV about actually researching Kadar in relation to nationality it made me relate to you on a personal level, because I have investigated who is likely to be scum in relation to who we have had flip.

That is also a reason for my voting of Enigma.

Cool story bro.

Can you vote smarg now?

[ThAdmiral]

@ peregrine: Currently I have

Me
peregrine
fonz
lowell

as the town, which leaves

enigma
bvoigt
sathoris

as the scum.

And yes that is in order from most town to most scum and there is not much separating enigma and lowell.

We should wait for everyone to do this before voting.

[ThAdmiral]

Still waiting to hear from enigma and lowell, but I think a claim is a good idea. I would also be happy with a sathoris start - if your claiming doesn't change anything you might as well go first.

[ThAdmiral]

updated:

jmj3000 - 5 -

DavidParker,

LynchMePls

,

Ghostwriter

,

smargaret

,

LlamaFluff

ThAdmiral - 8 -

Nachomamma8

, EGL,

LynchMePls

,

LlamaFluff

,

smargaret

,

GhostWriter

,

Amrun

,

Feysal

Amrun

- 10 -

XScorpion

,

Beasts of the Sea

,

Stephoscope

, bvoigt,

RedCoyote

, ThAdmiral,

smargaret

, mothrax, DavidParker,

Scott Brosius

ThAdmiral - 9 -

Nachomamma8

, EGL,

LynchMePls

,

LlamaFluff

,

GhostWriter

,

Amrun

,

Feysal

, bvoigt,

smargaret

Bunnylover

- 13 -

LlamaFluff

,

Amrun

,

RedCoyote

, bvoigt,

smargaret

, Lowell,

Nachomamma8

,

Stephoscope

, DavidParker,

Furcolow

,

InflatablePie

,

gonnano

, EGL

Furcolow

- 8 -

Scott Brosius

, DavidParker,

XScorpion

,

InflatablePie

,

Stephoscope

, smargaret, bvoigt,

LynchMePls

Amrun

- 11 -

VP Baltar

, bvoigt,

Nachomamma8

,

smargaret

,

Furcolow

,

Debonair Danny DiPietro

,

LynchMePls

,

Beasts of the Sea

,

Stephoscope

, DavidParker, EGL

gonnano

- 9 -

bvoigt, Lowell, ThAdmiral,

LynchMePls

,

Scott Brosius

,

Stephoscope

,

Furcolow

,

smargaret

,

Beasts of the Sea

Feysal

- 8 -

ThAdmiral,

smargaret

,

Stephoscope

, bvoigt,

LynchMePls

,

Scott Brosius

, Lowell,

Furcolow

[ThAdmiral]

no's 1,2,4 and 5 are the only ones of interest really. There are probably others that might offer good information, I'll have another look.

[ThAdmiral]

These are probably the only other ones that caught my eye and they aren't super informative, but I might as well post them anyway.

DavidParker - 7 -

ThAdmiral,

LynchMePls

,

InflatablePie

, Lowell, bvoigt, EGL,

Beasts of the Sea

smargaret

- 7 -

ThAdmiral,

LynchMePls

,

Furcolow

, Sathoris,

Beasts of the Sea

, Lowell,

Stephoscope

[ThAdmiral]

Of the original vote counts:
- DavidParker/peregrine look bad in 1
- Egl/Enigma look bad in 2
- Egl and bvoigt look bad in 4
- bvoigt, lowell, davidparker/peregrine and Egl/enigma look bad in 5 - specifically US scum bad

And of the more recent ones:
- Lowell, bvoigt, egl look bad in the first one
- particularly sathoris, and somewhat lowell look bad in the second one