Newbie 1120 - The Scum in Sherlock (Over!)

[Thor665]

tl:dr - this entire commentary block is all about introducing myself as the IC, blathering about my duties, and offering a basic idea of some of the strategy of the RVS. If this interests you, please read on (especially if this is your first time playing here) if not, feel free to skip.

Spoiler: IC Intro

===========================================================================================

Greetings,

I am Thor665 and I am the Inexperienced Challenged (IC) player of this group. What this means is first and foremost - I am here to play this game with you in a way that will show you what it is like to play on Mafiascum.net. I am here to win and should be treated as such.

My goals and the rules governing my actions are covered in this handy article: Being a good IC
That article is part of our amazing MafiaWiki System. I *highly* recommend this system as a good way to get your feet wet and to find out what a lot of the common abbreviations mean. There is a lot of play strategy discussed in there too. A lot of players consider that advice almost all outdated now. I don't recommend trying to run verbatim with anything there, but a lot of the basic advice is very good to at least be aware of as it can help you avoid blatant pitfalls as you become familiar with the game play here.

Now, as an IC I am here as a resource for you to ask questions of concerning game theory. I WILL NOT lie about game theory answers and will answer them to the best of my ability. I will also offer you the following quick pieces of advice;

1. Don't self vote. (there are really no points during a Newbie setup where this is a good idea, please avoid it however logical you may think it is)
2. This site frowns on lying if you are a vanilla town role. I strongly advise against lying if you have this role as usually it will only hurt town in the end.
3. It's a game - have fun.

We are now starting what is known as the RVS (random voting stage). We are in a low information period because scum already know who they are, and even have a rough idea of what power roles may or may not be in the game. It is now town's job to root them out. Because the start of the game leaves us with no information to start with generally the way to start is to begin voting and questioning other people to see if you can catch them doing something scummy (scummy actions being acts that a scum player is more likely to do then a town player).

Vote: hiplop

Because his name always confuses me with hiphop and makes me think I'm playing with someone else.

[Thor665]

I have a feeling Thor is mafia this game. Don't ask me why.

It's because you're terrible at everything
You should sheep me.

[Thor665]

Unvote: hiplop
Vote: cloudocean

Obvious scum is obvious - this vote isn't random.

Why did you change your mind?

[Thor665]

ninja is obvious town

[Thor665]

I will tell you why I changed my mind later.

Why can't you tell us now?
When you 'tell us later' I'll expect a really good explanation as to why you couldn't say right away.

@Thor: Are you joking? Sarcasm is really hard to see over the internet.

Joking about what?
I'm really voting you.
I really think you look scummier than anyone else in the game.
I really am done with the RVS.
Does that clear it up?

[Thor665]

VOTE: hellhound1 because he only has one hellhound

Hey hiplop - in this thread 'Thing are happening' maybe you should actually respond to them?

[Thor665]

@cloudocean

1. i already indicated I was waiting and tagged on an extra question for you to answer at that time.
2. Depends on if you flip scum, I suppose. But - yeah, he's the most townish player thus far, I certainly don't see anyone looking more town than him.
3. I'll do so after you explain why you changed your mind But - basically - it wasn't that scummy until you couldn't explain it right away. Now it's more scummy.
4. I want him to respond with an opinion about the bandwagon. Personally, yes, I'd like him to vote you to hopefully accelerate your explanation. But if he wanted to defend you that would be fine too. As currently stands he avoided mentioning you. If you flip scum he's who I'll lynch next and I'll suspect ninja and hellhound are town.

[Thor665]

@Thor665
1. You're going to have to wait. I can't answer your second question as of now.
2. How is bandwagoning "townish"?
3. I am going to quote you.

Obvious scum is obvious.

I am going to go out on a limb here and say that such a statement is quite definitive. At that point, I made no indication that I couldn't explain my revote right away.
Thus, A. Can you explain why you're contradicting yourself?
B. Can you not avoid the question? Unless there's a good reason as to why you're avoiding explaining a "scumtell."

1. As already indicated - sure.
2. Because if you're scum he's not behaving like a buddy would. Bandwagoning is actually a fairly neutral tell in and of itself, and is only alignment driven in relation to how it was done and when and on players of what alignment.
3a. I am not contradicting myself.
3b. I have explained the scumtell. Here it is in small bites - your vote at that stage had to be fairly random. You chose to change it for a reason. Due to the timeframe of the game there are very few reasons available. Scum have access to lots more reasons than town. You demurred explaining what, for town, had to be a reasonless shift or a shift for joke purposes. Ergo - you're scum.

[Thor665]

Explanation for revote:

I RV'd, noticed Thor was an IC and figured that a BW on a noob would probably lead to more useful reactions.

Value of not explaining this right away?

[Thor665]

Unfortunately, were random lynching, which we have to do for the first day.

Well, actually we're random voting - not random lynching.
Also, no votes in the RVS are actually random, so there is that too.

Thoughts on ocean?

[Thor665]

2. I am going to point out the contradiction.

- You voted me and called me "obvious scum."
- When asked why revoting is scummy, you said that I wasn't scummy until after I refused to explain my revote.
- You called me "obvious scum" before I essentially said "I'm not going to explain until later."
- Conclusion: You changed your story midway. That is a contradiction. Nice try though.

- Yes.
- Actually, I said it wasn't 'that' scummy - which is totally different than saying it wasn't scummy. Nice try though.
- Yes.
- Nope.

3. I gave the reason. Also, please explain why scum would revote. I also explained why I demurred my response. Please explain how I am still "scum."
4. Value: I was trying to salvage the situation and continue on with my attempts to get the BW going. Obviously, it did not work.

3. Trying to look not scummy is not something town should worry about as much as you just indicated you did. Town know they're not scummy. Also, you tried to retroactively work in a RVS reasoning. So silly and so obviously fake.
4. Salvage what? Which bandwagon were you trying to work?

[Thor665]

@Thor665
1. See post 39. That would make 3 yes'es = conclusion affirmed.
2. I love it when people bring up the "town knows that they aren't scummy" argument. This is wrong because town

can

be scummy. The goal of a townie is to get scum lynched. Being scummy and thereby avoiding lynching scum is not in the best interest of a townie. As such, a townie should work towards not acting scummy.
3. "Retroactive RV reasoning." <-- This doesn't make any sense. You completely ignored my explanation without refuting it. Are you saying that reaction testing an experienced player is going to reveal more interesting results than reaction testing a newb?
4. The bandwagon I was trying to start. I was trying to salvage my efforts, and thereby try to continue the BW.

1. Except - no, it doesn't, because the one no was a very important no because you dramatically changed what I actually said to something that means totally the opposite of what I said.
2. I disagree, but in any case you were worried more about looking town than about scumhunting - that is scummy.
3. I didn't ignore your explanation at all. I did make it clear that I believe you're being dishonest - which is as much refutation as can be provided.
4. ...not buying it, because you went into hardcore defensive mode. Plus, you had no deeper reason for being cagey with your explanation of changing your mind but tried anyway. That there was no reason to delay the answer shows that you were actually delaying giving the anwer for a strategic reason - since you haven't shown any reason my summation is that the reasoning is to buy yourself time to come up with a "reason".

2. Awesoma: Makes decisions based on past roles. Contradicted self (see #4 under Awesoma in this post).

Buddied Thor. = Leaning scum

.
3. Ninja:

Was buddied by Thor --> leaning town. No need for scum to buddy their own partners so early on...

Relevant points bolded.
This is an actual contradiction - shouldn't either ninja be scummy or I be town by your logic? Why the two different methods?
Oh...right, you're scum. Never mind.

Please address the part of your "Thor is contradicting case" where I specifically pointed out that you made up what I said and thus got a different meaning.
I don't feel like you're actually reading my posts - which is scummy.

@Hellhound - please do re-read my "contradiction" I deny it even exists and deny that I was confused.

======================random IC bit=============================

@Ocean - when asking a mod a question it is general practice to bold the question

Like this

so the mod notices it. Usually I go;

@MOD - question?

By havint it as its own line and bold, and specifically calling out the mod you're more likely to get an answer. PMs also work.
I've never seen a mod yet with a double posting policy unless it was part of the game setup.

[Thor665]

@Thor- Who are you greatest town reads at the moment? I believe you to be leading town as all your posts seem constructive.

That's an awkward question to ask in a newbie because so many new players actually are pretty bad at sending out proper town vibes early because they're still trying to even figure out how to play the game - much less play it well. I don't have a town read I would be happy to call town right at this stage. If you twisted my arm I'd probably say...hellhound as long as I'm right about cloudocean? Meh. Stay tuned, I usually just shout out my town reads as I get them anyway - yours went away the instant you unvoted, nobody else has generated one, when I get a new one I'll let everyone know.

[Thor665]

Contradiction isn't a very reliable scumtell in my opinion.

[Thor665]

Contradiction isn't a very reliable scumtell in my opinion.

I do believe he used it as a way of calling you scum?

He did, though I showed how it wasn;'t a contradiction at all. Still, contradictions are an advanced level of scumhunting in my experience and need to be used carefully. More often than not they catch people with faulty mental processes, not scum.

@ninjacheese

Show me where I've misquoted someone/taken something out of context.

I'm glad Hellhound reposted it for me - I'm really starting to buy into my accusation to you that you're not actually reading the thread.

@Thor665

1. If I were scum why would I attract attention to myself (revoting, prolonging explanation)?
2. Why would I even prolong the explanation as scum? What purpose does it serve me?

1. If you were town why would you attract attention to yourself (revoting, prolonging explanation)? I don't consider it optimal scum play, and if I was scum I wouldn't have done it. But I'm not sure that you play perfect scum games, so I don't actually see the relevance of this line of questioning. I've explained why I think what you did was scummy, either attack that or don't.

2. Wow, this is the first question in a different vein...plus I've already answered this one. I think you prolonged the explanation because you needed to invent the explanation because you didn't have an explanation.

[Thor665]

Ninja was buddied by Thor literally three posts in... Awesoma buddied Thor by BW'ing a few posts after saying "I think we should be careful!" (i.e. Awesoma's buddying was contradictory to a statement he made before and opportunistic) ... notice the statement in #3 - "so early on."

So...is it Awesoma's buddying that is scummy...or is it the contradiction that is scummy? What am I missing?

[Thor665]

.............. His contradiction is interrelated to his buddying .....

Earlier you said he was scummy because he was buddying. Are you saying now that his buddying isn't scummy...or is it? This is a simple question I would think.

Show me how Thor didn't contradict himself....

I already did this.

Here is you explaining the "contradiction."

you said that I wasn't scummy until after I refused to explain my revote.

Here is what I actually said.

it wasn't that scummy until you couldn't explain it right away. Now it's more scummy.

In your version I "said" you weren't scummy until you refused to explain.
In my version I said you were scummy in a lesser way that became more scummy when you refused to explain.

Totally different meaning.
You made up my contradiction in your own head by either lying to us, or not reading carefully enough. Let me know which it was.

[Thor665]

@ninja - in a regular game I would say no, because there's no value to it, but here's the breakdown.

1. I call something scummy.
2. You hop in aggressive and hot.
3. If I was correct in #1 and ocean flipped scum, you would be obv. obv. obv. town because the chance of you bussing a buddy like that is next to nil.
4. You unvote - this destroys the bus energy and makes you not obv. town now.

@starttransmission - when you present a post that is not filled with caveats I'll probably have some questions for you. I look forward to this happening.

[Thor665]

I buddied Thor because there was nothing suspicious about him at that time, though I do have my reasons to start pointing a finger at him now. YES, I did contradict myself and I am not denying it. I am in to fair voting, and not into troll voting, yet I pulled an OMGUS on Hellhound, which if you read a few posts back, I declared Imature and not a very smart move to pull in my analysis of myself to clear some blurred things up.

How is that pointing any type of finger at me in any way, shape, or form?

Holy balls, can we not quick lynch anyone.

Holy feet, why, will we miss out on awesomely constructive posts like this?

[Thor665]

Why are you talking about what he flips on literally page 1? Wtf is this. Everything about your posts seems to be push push pushing people towards a cloudocean lynch to ACTUALLY go through. Even when it gets to L-1, you don't state any intent to unvote or even ask people not to hammer. I interpret your play as brazenly pushing the ML here as scum.

Why would I want to unvote or tell people not to hammer when he is at L-1? How does this make me scummy?

This is a perfectly reasonable explanation of why he changed his RVS vote. I don't understand the case on cloudocean at all. I think he is the towniest one here so far.

Why do you think he delayed explaining his reason?
WHy do you think it took the massive argument from Hellhound of "There's no reason to dealy" to convince him to give his reason?

Tin-foil hat moment of the day: What if Thor/cloudocean are doing some epic sort of bus-distancing and are both scum?

Then you should be voting cloudocean - since he looks the most townlike he is clearly the superior player.
Where is this bit of twittery coming from?

[Thor665]

"There's no reason to *delay*"

[Thor665]

-You'd want to unvote to give him a chance to claim in case he is a power role. like cop ?!?!? C'mon you should know better.
-You are scummy because you aren't thinking things through and tunneling like a mofo.

1. L-1 still gives him a chance to claim, why would I need to unvote to L-2 to manage a claim?
2. I think you're mistaking aggression with being scummy. You did the same thing last game we were in, whassup?

-He explained why he waited on his reasoning. He didn't want to out that his switch was for pressure as that defeats the purpose of a pressure vote obviously.
-He was being stubborn. It is a failure to communicate pure and simple. Not indicative of scum whatsover.

1. Meh.
2. Tunneling is scummy - stubborn is non-indicative? Double meh.

Question at you Thor: Are you willing to be lynched tomorrow if (and its almost certainly a "when") cloudocean flips town? Like instant lynched with no questions asked?

If I flip town are you willing to be insta-lynched? This is a silly question - the answer is no and also the town would be silly to insta lynch Day 2 under almost any circumstances. Day 2 is one of the most important Days in the game.

If not, why are you incessant that we lynch him. It's 5 pages into the game and im telling you the case on him is shit (and that is even if he ends up being scum).

Your belief that he is obvious town is also paired with a belief that I am scum - since I know that you're wrong in half your case I have to be somewhat unimpressed with your reads in the other half.
I am being incessant - this is how you actually create pressure in the game. Not by refusing to explain vote shift reasons and not by calling a vote a pressure vote - but by believing what you're doing. How would you describe my play as different here than in the last game we played together?

[Thor665]

You were MUCH more cautious the last game I played with you.

I remember in our last game our conversations usually went like this;

Thor: FS is town!
Scumhunter: Whut, why?
Thor: Because! Also, we should lynch Meran!
Scumhunter: Why?
Thor: He's scum, such obvious scum, vote him, and leave FS alone.
Scumhunter: None of your cases make sense!

How is that different or more cautious than what I'm doing here? Remember Staeg Day 1 in that game? On him and Meran like white on rice, push, push, push, get a lynch. Day 2 on Meran, push, push, push, get a lynch. I think I'm playing pretty much identically - what's different?

[Thor665]

Oh, and cloud's alignment does matter.
Tunneling scum is super pro-town.
Tunneling town sucks.

[Thor665]

Thor, without mentioning Cloudocean, who do you think is the scummiest player?

Scumhunter for ignoring knowledge he already has.

Thor why havent you put any pressure on awsoma?

Only one vote - plus his play hasn't been particularly scummy in my opinion.

[Thor665]

Why is the case Smurf?
Why is 'Thor is tunneling' a better case?
Why have you not answered my questions about how my play is not as 'careful' in this game as the last one we played?

[Thor665]

@hiplop - Smurf. I choose not to curse in my posts (there's more creative ways to express disgust) and I also choose to edit in all curse words as Smurf to help showcase how much power and validity those words actually add to a case - also known as, none at all (and possibly detract from it).

When you figure out what isn't right about that post let me know - because that post is awesome. Also, note that the questions raised in that post were dodged by Scumhunter, proving how awesome that post is. I'd also actually like to see you really start weighing in here, we're 5 pages in and I don't feel I have a grasp on your position on much of anything - why is that?

@Hellhound - do you think scum often buddy up to very pro town looking players?

[Thor665]

2. Also, lol @ Thor OMGUS'ing
3. Why is Thor town?

Why is OMGUS scummy?
When did I actually use OMGUS
Also - define OMGUS, the most misused scumtell in the entire game.

@Thor665
1. I've already addressed your explanation. Look to post 39. Again, there aren't any contradictions that I haven't refuted. Try again.

You 'addressed' it insomuch as you admitted you decided what I meant was different then what I said and then called it a contradiction. Explain how that works.

2. Scumhunter brings up a good point. Why have you done nothing except tunnel me? What's your opinion on Awesoma?

Already explained tunnel on you. Already gave read on Awesoma; I haven't seen anything I would call scummy.

[Thor665]

@Hellhound - do you think scum often buddy up to very pro town looking players?[/quote]

3. Why are you on Thor's Smurf?

If you're going to sheep me too, at least let him deal with my question, which was a lot more clever, without wading in so awkwardly.

[Thor665]

Bah - messed up quotes, first question was a quote from me that cloudocean was excited enough by that he decided to hop on my Smurf and replicate it.

[Thor665]

I mean just look you now fos me just for disagreeing with you?

That's not why I listed you as 2nd scummiest, I specifically said why I listed you as 2nd scummiest.
How is that answer to my question you keep dodging going? Y'know, the one where you said I was more cautious in our other game played together and then you sort of just went - derpity-derpy-doo...and tried to forget that line of questioning? Please answer this question or I'll indeed stop tunneling on cloud, but it will be to tunnel on you till lynch do us part.

Your pressure and enthusiasm could be much better used elsewhere, for example aimed at Swag who has not posted even once in this thread or at starttransmission who has just posted twice...

I'm playing with Swag in another game - $5 says he's flaking out on all of them and will need to be replaced. I don't need to pressure someone who isn't even laying the game.

[Thor665]

My play in the game you linked was exactly as I described it;

Tunnel, tunnel, tunnel - lynch.
Grumble at people not voting enough, bully people onto wagons I support, tunnel, tunnel, tunnel. Show me where my play is *different* on Day 1, show me actions on Day 1 where I wasn't tunneling someone or making seemingly unsubstantiated claims about someone's alignment. Show me the differences, baby.

I'm not threatening to vote you if you don't agree with me - I was threatening to vote you if you didn't answer my question and kept dodging it. Try to keep up.

My case on cloud;
Gut.
Vote shift during RVS while being cagey about explaining weak RVS reasons until someone pointed out the shocking idea of 'what benefit is there not to explain them?'
Defensive little dap posts.
Contradiction hunting while ignoring that he's trimming posts and drawing mental conclusions in order to create the contradictions - acting like that's a good idea.
And gut.

When you come in and go 'these are bad/weak reasons' I'll automatically respond that you should go and get my FS=town and my Meran=scum cases from that last game and see how much difference there is.

[Thor665]

In response to your points:

Though you AGAIN fail to show how my play is any different from the other game. Why do you keep dodging this? DOes it seem like too much work? Have you changed your mind? What?

Voteshift during RVS

. He more than adequately explained what he was doing here: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p3133106. A scum would be much more cautious not to ruffle any feathers early on. He specifically said he had a reason for what he was doing. That reason being that it is more useful to pressure a newer player than an IC. That makes sense to me, does it not make sense to you?

I've explained why it made sense as scum too, does that not make sense to you?
So he starts with voting me (for the random reason of starting pressure) then he unvotes me (I personally think it's because he noticed there was already a vote on me and was scared to be the 2nd vote guy - but whatevs) His reason? He "just" noticed I was an IC and wanted to pressure a newbie...well...what, he can't take 30 seconds if his plan is to pressure a newbie with his RVS to FIGURE OUT WHO THE CLEARLY LABELED NEWBIES ARE? Seriously, how does this explanation make sense? It's very clear who the newbies are - so why did he need to change after voting the opposite of a newbie? Answer? It's because he's lying about why he changed, ergo he's scum.

Defensive posts-

Null tell.

When done to the exclusion of scumhunting I actually disagree. You can call it trying to reason with me, I call it scum trying to appease me...and then after he can't appease me he starts attacking me as obviously scummy. Neither of us can be certain whose version is correct until he flips (unless you're scum) but I see no reason why your perception is more valid than mine, clarification?

Contradiction hunting while ignoring that he's trimming posts and drawing mental conclusions in order to create the contradictions - acting like that's a good idea.

Not sure I understand this. Not a big fan of the semantics game and this argument. Whatever inconsistencies in quotes/scumhunting are way overshadowed by cloud's general attitude which is one I really have a hard time believing scum would take.

He is changing quotes and/or choosing to interpret them in strange ways and then calling the other person scummy because of contradictions.
You CAN'T justify changing what a person says and then calling it a contradiction - that makes no sens whatsoever and is totally undefendable as a valid method to find contradictions or scum. Do you disagree?

I.e. I'll post multiple times saying I'll say what I'm doing later even though I'm getting shit for it. He eventually outs a LEGIT reason for his vote hop. I don't think that is scum faking town motivation i really don't.

I'll post multiple times saying that I won't reveal just yet.
Then when someone asks why it helps town to not reveal just yet - I'll reveal right away literally minutes after just saying I won't reveal just yet.
When I do reveal I'll claim the vote was for pressure...and RVS, haha, yeah, RVS, really, totally random...leave me alone!
Also - both the people voting me are scum. Really.

I dunno, Scumhunter, why is he so obvious town again?

[Thor665]

Does she need pressure or lynching? I do lynching. I've also said I don't see anything she's done as scummy - so that is an awkward sell for me. How about you give me 1-2 sentences as to why she needs lynching and then we'll talk.
You could also vote cloud or Scumhunter, that would be awesome.

[Thor665]

What about Hellhound? He's leeching off of me waaaay more than Awesoma.
Also, contradictions really aren't scummy.

Unvote: cloudocean
Vote: Scumhunter

Let's party.

[Thor665]

Though recognize that if Scum flips scum than cloud is most likely town. Your Scum/Cloud scum pair is rather unlikely.

[Thor665]

For the same reason you came to your conclusion that they're buddies, but then I fed it through one level of paranoia and common sense and came out the other side with an opposite read.
Here;

They are obv. obv. buddies because, lol, look how much Scumhunter is blatant defending his "buddy, lol, lol, awesome!
However, Scumhunter has played with me once before, and I don't think he'd risk pulling a move like that with a shark like me in the water hanging out and going 'graagh, graaagh' like a shark does.
Therefore, if he's scum, he's actually trying to get town points and make me look less functional, by blatant defending a townie I want to lynch all while going 'snicker, snicker, Thor's not even voting for town, lulz!'

Meanwhile, if cloud is scum, scumbuddy Scumhunter is probably smart enough to be like 'caught by Thor Day 1 - *sigh* nice knownin' ya, little buddy!'
And then promptly hopping on a bus and riding it with a smile all the way downtown to the lynchin' tree.

Therefore - Scumhunter and cloud are highly unlikely to be buddies.

[Thor665]

I kind of understand, but you switched your vote from CO to Scum, so if Scum flips town, that sets up CO as scum, right?

No, CO is scummy independent of Scumhunter. Scumhunter flipping town does not affect my read on CO in any way though I *might* look at his CO=town case again. Scumhunter being town will not prove CO scum in any meaningful way.

[Thor665]

I don't even know what you're saying there.

Quote 1: They are not both scum.
Quote 2: One being town does not prove the other is scum.

I personally think one is scum, but it's not an absolute and I wouldn't want to push the lynch on that basis as it would be a terrible case. I'd push the case based on the independent reasons I found them scummy.

[Thor665]

Thor, if cloud and I are unlikely to be scum buddies, and you have such a strong scum read on cloud, why the Smurf are you voting me? Something does not compute here.

Because it amused me. Besides, you keep saying my read on cloud is terrible, so probably it's super awesome that I'm moving off him, yeah?

Explain why you think one of me/cloud is scum. YOUR CASE ON CLOUD IS STILL SMURF.

I find you both very scummy and I'm too full of myself to believe I'm wrong twice. My case is actually much more that you aren't scumbuddies, hence you can't both be scum - but I do believe one of you is.

How can you possibly be confident of a statement "one of SH/cloud" is scum when there are 2 slots who have contributed literally zilch to this point. Your logic and critical thinking is way way way way off.

That's hillarious considering your next comment.

Can we lynch Thor already......Am I going crazy here?

Considering you're not even voting me and you think it's crazy to believe I spotted scum when two people haven't posted yet - yes.

[Thor665]

How many people do you think are voting you right now?

[Thor665]

When did I mention you'd be my second choice as scum?
While you're at it - who do you think is scum? Because you're voting nobody, and I'm pretty sure he's town and also unlynchable.

[Thor665]

I'm saying you're my two top scumspects and I expect one of you is scum but have specifically ruled out both of you being scum together.
As I've already explained. I'm actually ruling you out as a pair, not making some strange pairing except insomuch as you're my two, separate, top suspects.
Get it now?

[Thor665]

Oh, and "I say so" is my other reason.

[Thor665]

I don't like how awesoma revealed her role so quickly, 1) she was under very little pressure and 2)i dont believe her, im starting to think awesoma

may be

scum (Or a town power role and doesnt want the attention)

1. This line of questioning is not a pro-town line of questioning.
2. Awesoma is fairly obvious town.

I still don't like how starttransmission + swag have posted literally nothing.

Swag is replacing out all over.
I haven't bothered to look at starttransmission, but wouldn't surprise me if he's the same. I'm not worried about either right now.

Why do you think my play in the other game we played was "cautious" and yet here is "reckless"
Could you show me a quote of cautious play from Day 1 of the other game to support your read?
I eel like I've been asking you this a lot - since it's a big part of your case on me I would think it would be really helpful to show how cautious I normally am and then show how I'm utterly ridiculous in this game, yeah? I'm trying to help you make a case on me, step it up, chop-chop.

While 7 pages in is VERY early for the game, I dont think we should put anyone truly down yet until those 2 post. In addition, cloud needs to be pressured. He hasn't posted since Friday and he is looking scummier because he hasn't posted any points defending himself. Scumhunter was the only one that stepped up to the plate to truly defend cloud in a reliable way, thus protecting him from getting lynched.

Once again,

You're saying stuff here...but all you're doing is IIoA (information instead of analysis) you're saying what's happened, you're not saying anything about why it has happened or what you think about it.
You're not helping town at all with a post like the above. How about you draw some conclusions - you did a iso analysis of yourself, why not do that for your top 1-2 scumreads and try to get more people voting them once they see how awesoma your case is. Pun intended.

Hellhound is now starting to look pretty town, which makes me feel better about his lips being adhered to my buttocks earlier in the game. That said, I keep feeling like he's barking up totally inconsequential an dincorrect trees. Meh, at least it's scumhunting - which puts him ahead of 50% of the rest of the game already.

[Thor665]

My buttocks feel cold now.

@Hellhound - Let's break it down; Awesoma is new - I think we can both agree with that. The only way, to my mind, that he is scum right now is if he is actually pretty darn good at the game and is pulling a fairly elaborate double blind trick. Let's ignore that, and just go with the presumption he's a new player, yeah? So, let's walk it through;

Awsomascum - oh man, the heat is really on me! Everyone is figuring out I am scum! I've got to do something to get them off my back! I know, I'll claim! Yeeeeeaaah!!! That will get them to leave me alone! BRILLIANT! Now, I'll need to craft a brilliant and wonderful claim that will get them to leave me alone and not suspect me. Hay guyiz! Imma Vanilla, which means I'm basically pointless as far as protecting town power roles go!

::snicker:: they'll never lynch me now...mwu-hahahaha!

Seriously? You see that happening?
I don't.

Awesoma and Hellhound are town.
Cloud or Scumhunter should be lynched, and I'm starting to strongly lean Scumhunter - though, heck, maybe it's just because cloud is lurking out so hardcore.

@hiplop - you still alive man? What do you think of my four reads above?

@MOD - request cattle prod

[Thor665]

Thor, I still don't understand your case on me.

Since I asked you first and a lot more times - how about you answer my question, and as a reward I'll answer yours?
Until then, my case is this; You're not answering questions.

I dont see many people hopping on it, but still.

That is super exciting.
Why aren't you answering my question?

=================IC Moment=====================
Protip - in general MS games not answering questions is pretty much begging to have everyone vote and lynch you.
Also, answering other town player's questions theoretically should help them.
So - town or scum it is generally a good idea to at least note that someone asked you a question, even if you don't want to answer it right away, because at least then people feel you're reading the thread.
This IC moment *might* have applicable issues with the current game.

[Thor665]

Thor, I still don't understand your case on me.

Since I asked you first and a lot more times - how about you answer my question, and as a reward I'll answer yours?
Until then, my case is this; You're not answering questions.

[Thor665]

I still find L-1 to be a big warning. Something that's really against our interest. Thor as the IC, I was sad to see your responses to this. But then again, it's your playstyle and have the right to have your views on it. In general though, I don't like it. Especially considering the fact that the arguments aren't even that solid in the first place. I'm a bit suspicious of your behaviour to think L-1 is okay based on what we've gone on.

1. Lynching is pro town.
2. No lynching is anti-town.
3. To get a lynch at some point you need to go to L-1.

EVERYTHING else is just debate about "when" L-1 should be achieved, and that's it. Maybe no one should vote until we agree on a lynch, then we don't have this problem? Naaaah. L-1 is awesome. L-1 on Page 2-3 is awesome. You're scared of progress, move on.

[Thor665]

@Torq - by the way, I understand you appear to have no read on Scumhunter. Please give me your read on how he's dodging around actually explaining the primary crux of his case/issue with me - which is how I'm aggressive in this game and wasn't in another. What do you see in his lack of answering that question after repeated prods?

[Thor665]

Thor, I don't know how many times I have explained what my issue was with you its a tone difference between this game and the last game we played with you.

And I have asked you repeatedly to provide quotes showing this tone difference and have openly declared it doesn't exist - what don't you grok about that?
Don't tell me and the rest of the thread I have a different tone - show us I have a different tone, or admit you're making stuff up. I'm fine either way. This 'tone' business i the heart and soul of your case with me and your issue with the cloud wagon, and you haven't produced anything to support it.

Torq explained my major concern with you perhaps more succinctly than I did. I thoguht your play with regards to putting cloud at L-1 and calling for a lynch with no claim was super scummy and best case scenario for you, bad town play.

Please quote where I said I wanted a lynch with no claim and we'll discuss what I was doing.

Ah well, pretty sure it was here -_- ...but anyway, into Notepad this reply goes for now :p

There is no such function - I always just open multi quote tabs and copy/paste them into one reply window.

Absolutley right. I agree it's about when. From my reasoning, it's way too early - especially in a Newbie game, for the reasons I mentioned. I could have easily came on here - got sick of the banter between you and cloudocean and just dropped the Hammer to progress things. Then we'd see what happens at night and take thigns from there on Day 2. Yes, high chance I'd get lynched in Day 2 whether I'd be scum or town - overall, I'm sayin it doesn't help us much at all. I'm not scared of progress, I'm scared of rash behaviour. And so far I don't like your style of play. If you seem to think L-1 is okay, then you're entitled to your opinion. I however don't like it so early and more importantly for something that doesn't even really make sense to me.

Newsflash - you have successfully discovered a null tell, insomuch as 'not liking my play style' is so very far from being 'Thor is scummy' it's not funny. If you'd like to debate the merits of early L-1 wagons feel free to ask me after the game and I'll quite excitedly debate you as to why my way is best.
If your issue is "I disagree with the speed" Well...okay...now let's move on to actual game discussion and drop the pointless subject unless you're calling me scummy or Scumhunter townie for our opinions in that matter. And if you're doing this prepare to have me mock you

Can you please direct me to specific posts? I did notice you repeatedly ask him to answer your questions, but I kinda got lost to see what those questions really were? If you can show me, and link to posts where it kinda looks like he's dodging, then I'll make an assessment on Scum. So far, I've liked what he's said about cloudocean though, because it synchs up with the view I have got so far.

Pull up my iso and run a search of quote and Scumhunter...whatevs, I'll do it for you but I will add in a "are you reading the game?" question to this effort on my part. Seriously, you have issue with fast wagons but no issues with skim reading?

^ This, however, is a good summary of my view on the game too. Thor pushes hard for a lynch, but lets just make sure we at least go through the motions. Before I even came here, pretty much 2 roleslots didn't even say anything. And now we have 1 missing, and then cloud MIA for about 5 days.

"Going through the motions" is not pro-town.
Going through things that need to be done, might be.
Since you're town, me finding scum elsewhere should actually please you in my scumhunting skills, yeah? I'm already at least 50% right to have accelerated from your perspective, yeah?

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 6#p3138516
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 7#p3138897
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 2#p3140812
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 8#p3141038
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 6#p3142686

Here. i bet there's at least 1-3 more, but I just got lazy and that should at least clue you in. The first one is me asking him the question, and all the rest are me reminding him or asking him again to answer it. look at his most recent "answer" and note it's just a restatement of the original comment I asked for more info on. Somewhere in there I started to demand quotes, and he's sticking with "You felt more cautious" which is pretty much silly.

Now, what's your opinion on that thing which I'm certain you read but just sort of forgot about considering how Thor is irrationally attacking people too soon because there's not enough of a case? (note: this is actually sarcasm suggesting you're just not noticing the cases and thus why I don't really buy into your opinions of them, I'm a subtle guy like that )

[Thor665]

@Scumhunter

So just to clarify that large post above, as i understand it these are the salient points I should see;

1. You don't have a quote from me about how my play was different but still say the play was different.
2. You don't have a quote of me saying I wanted a hammer without a claim but feel that this is what I wanted.
3. You're not attacking me right now, so I should back off of you.
4. Everyone should have a super huge town read on you because you advocated cautiousness.

Did I get those right? I know I'm being a bit harsh about it, but that's what I see there. I see, "I'm not backing up anything I've been saying with hard facts" and "Leave me alone, I'm leaving you alone" and "oh dear gawd, everyone should think I'm town because I'm cautious!" Here's a few quick thoughts from me on these points.

If I never said something, but you "feel" I did it...did I do it? I'm saying I didn't, you say you "feel" I did. I actually recall you and I having a conversation where I specifically discussed how he could claim while at L-1 - should I pull that out to showcase how totally off the wall and strange this accusation of yours is? I don't think cautiousness and concern of a quick lynch are viable town tells at all, because scum are well aware of them. If it's you saying it's part of your personal meta...well, do you have an example of some town games where you were super bloodthirsty Day 1? I'm certainly not taking your word about this being a super town tell for you. Self Meta is functionally worthless. I have a problem with you making up stuff and having to backtrack the instant I request quotes - yes. I don't need a super formal case, I need a case that is based in any fact whatsoever, and you're clearly just making up things and lobbing them at me.

[Thor665]

-You'd want to unvote to give him a chance to claim in case he is a power role. like cop ?!?!? C'mon you should know better.
-You are scummy because you aren't thinking things through and tunneling like a mofo.

1. L-1 still gives him a chance to claim, why would I need to unvote to L-2 to manage a claim?
2. I think you're mistaking aggression with being scummy. You did the same thing last game we were in, whassup?

Yes, Thor is totally against claiming. Absolutely, in every way, Thor wanted a lynch without a claim.

[Thor665]

Thor, I think you should have unvoted when it got to L-1. That is what I'm saying. I apologize if I'm misrepresenting your actions. Not unvoting and not saying "don't hammer" is by default silently being okay with it if a hammer were to happen. Granted that may not have been your intent, but that is what your actions said (to me at least).

1. I think the only viable time to claim due to a wagon is when at L-1
2. I wanted cloud lynched. If someone had speed hammered him I would have been okay with that as a suspect would be dead, and we'd have some very interesting things to see on Day 2.
3. You accused me of wanting a hammer without a claim, something I never endorsed, you are now resetting yourself to 'Thor was aggressive', which I 100% agree with, but...yeah, whut?

Why do you feel the need to not only prove every point against you wrong but also automatically try to incriminate anyone who might dare be suspicious of you? If I'm wrong about you, time will tell.

Because, as I said, I feel you're making it all up. I think I've even shown this now.
Do you think I should believe town is making up a case?

You should back off me not because I'm backing off you, but because I'm town and asking you to. You don't "have" to do anything. I am town, and yea I think people should view me as such because I am doing my best to help out and share my opinions. I'm sure I could accomplish a lot more if less of my time dedicated to this game was arguing with you.

1. To be treated as town you have to appaer town. Making up things, refusing to admit they're made up *and* refusing to show the "evidence" you have does NOT convince me you're town.
2. You are indeed spending a lot of time defending from me and not scumhunting. You could end my issues very easily by producing your evidence - then I would look silly and would have to remain quiet on the issue because I would have been served.

[Thor665]

You are indeed spending a lot of time defending from me and not scumhunting. You could end my issues very easily by producing your evidence - then I would look silly and would have to remain quiet on the issue because I would have been served.

[Thor665]

Here's two choice comments from the "reasoned" Thor.

*sigh* I don't know about the rest of you but the wagon could have been handled better. If you're going to pressure someone up to L-1 you *have* to play the risk (even in a newbie, probably...) and let them stew there a touch to see how they respond.

A personal opinion of mine; "Scumtells that cannot be explained" are worth just as much as 'gut' except usually I feel they are worth less, because it's gut people aren't willing to stand personally behind.

They might be relevant

Also, I've given multiple town and scum reads in this game - I dare say I've given more than anyone else. In fact, i will say it. What player do you think I'm ignoring? I bet three seconds with my iso and Ctrl+F will generate a couple comments about them. What's your current case for voting starttransmission? Lurking? Why should I give that the time of day? ninjacheese is way worse than starttransmission for lurking and you haven't said anything about him, why is that?

[Thor665]

Only cloud has slipped under the radar. The other two were never above the radar.

[Thor665]

You've got to be kidding me...

Sure, here's the fill in;

You're likely scum.
Scumhunter is likely scum.
You cannot be scum together.

Hellhound is town.
Awesoma is town.

Torqez is not reading enough.
hiplop is trying to avoid giving reads off himself but is more likely scum than Torqez.
ninjacheese is not playing to his win condition, whichever it is, and helps prove Scumhunter's scumminess via Scumhunter being on starttransmission.
Starttransmission/foilist is a flake out null read slot.

And I'm awesome and have a beard and your vote was already on me via general scummy failure of your predecessor.

I look...forward(?) to your catchup post.

[Thor665]

why am i likely scum? i've articulated my stance on this game perfectly i thought?

You've done nothing to make me think you're town and you've played safe a lot, looks like you're trying to appear pro-town without working for it, hence scummy.

I will point out to the scum team that DK always claims VT when he's a cop.
Just saying.

[Thor665]

Thor, tunneling is the worst attribute of a town-sided player. I'm not saying this to necessarily make you feel bad, but jesus Smurf, you refuse to look at my actions with the *possibility* shocking I know that I could be town.

Considering that you called me out for tunneling cloudocean I have to admit I find it 'meh' to deal with you calling me out for tunneling you. I think what you're seeing is actually application of pressure, not tunneling.
Also - let's be clear, I've looked at your actions and I can't figure out how they're supposed to look town. Yeah, I suppose if I squint and turn my head I could call them town, but let's be serious here and do a brief rundown.

1. Attacks me for 'tunneling' a player with a terrible case. Later votes this same player for being scummy once pressure is put on Scumhunter.
2. Accuses me of being scummy due to 'tells' in another game. Later refuses to explain or justify those tells, says it was just a gut feeling, and also clarfies that he was wrong to suggest them.
3. Pulls the ol' 'I'm not attacking you, I'm not attacking you!' defense.
4. Votes starttransmission for 'lurking' totally ignores ninjacheese who is lurking in a much scummier way, when I mention this ignores the point and never expands on starttransmission vote reasons.

I'm seriously supposed to look at this and try to figure out how it's coming from town and not go with the much simpler explanation that it's coming from scum, why is that?

Scum don't care who is lynched. THey would have no motivation to thrust THEMSELVES into the spotlight to defend a player who is being wagoned on. I'll even admit now cloud became scummy as the day went on and he flaked out. flaking out is more indicative of scum play than town play really.

1. I can think of lots of reasons scum would defend someone. I defend people when I'm scum all the time. Why is defending someone a town tell? Because if you can answer that it explains why scum do it.
2. For someone who calls AtE not scummy I consider it exceedinly silly to claim flaking, especially in a newbie, is scummy. Seriously - flaking is flaking, and is null. AtE is way scummier than flaking, and AtE isn't even all that scummy.

To everyone, really think about DeityKabuto's vote on me given how I defended their slot when me shutting the Smurf up would have resulted in d1 being over and that slot lynched by now. Does that make ANY sense WHATSOEVER

Unfortunately - welcome to DK's play.
So you're saying that by dint of you defending him he should have a definite town read on you? You still have no idea why scum would defend someone?

@Foilist - Yeah, speed hammers were most assuredly inbound, thank heaven you stopped them. In any case, I do look forward to actual thoughts from that slot.

[Thor665]

@Thor: Please link me to another newbie game where you have IC'd and are town. If no such game exists, then SE and town or just a town game.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 50&t=15590 - town
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 50&t=15598 - town
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 50&t=15619 - mafia
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 50&t=15898 - town
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 11&t=17228 - town
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 11&t=17472 - town
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 50&t=16301 - town
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 50&t=16399 - town
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 50&t=16948 - town

Above is my most recently completed batch of Newbies - about 5 seconds clicking on my topics on my user page will get you more if you wish. I left in the most recent mafia so you can actually try to get meta on me as mafia too, since singular purpose meta is worth nothing. I do end up as town an awful lot in newbies though, so hunting down my Newb scum performances will take a bit of searching.

As far as the specific case against him, there are some ok points. He let that question go for pages and pages, and then finally did answer it. That really isn't much of a reason for me to think he's scum. He was able to produce an answer, nor did you respond to the specific instances he quoted.

Actually, he produced a fob off answer and never produced specific instances to quote.
Please show me where he did and I'll immediately sheep you in voting myself.

I think Thor's case was bad then, and his new one is bad now. You are WAY too ok with L-1. So far you are the most anit-town IC I've ever seen.

Comfort with L-1 is not anti-town, scummy, or town, it is null. I would reverse with you are WAY too sensitive about L-1 and will have produced exactly as much info on your worthiness as a player and alignment of your role as you just did with mine.
Being okay with L-1 does not make me an anti-town IC. You're silly.

Also, everything about me in your post you note as anti-town, then you vote me. Color me not sold.

[Thor665]

Hint - if you want to apply pressure you should explain 'how' it's similar, show examples, or even vote me and be willing to say you find it similar just to force a reaction.

As stands; you continue your scummily safe play.

[Thor665]

@MOD - foilist is voting me.

[Thor665]

The very first game on that list;

I tunnel park and then Gud
I call hunt and Andrew town.
I push people to L-1 early and say L-1 on Page 5 is not a problem.
Town.

I don't know about playing 'abruptly' in the game with you...sure, maybe I did/didn't, I'm not even sure how to track abruptness.

Avoiding lynching someone because of a perceived quality irrelevant to gameplay is actually pretty silly. My IC status should not adjust willingness to lynch me and neither should presence of other ICs.

[Thor665]

Hmmm, that was also a hop from Scumhunter to me - when did I become scummier than Scumhunter?

[Thor665]

Add in Foilists reasoning and we have a pretty solid case tbh

No.
Though, I'd love to see Scumhunter's opinion of bluntness, me, and town/scum tells.

[Thor665]

Secondly, you open here with a full set of reads, where as in this game you are blathering on, making crappy semantics arguments, offering deals we all know you won't follow up on, and generally being an extremely anti-town player. Most importantly, you seem perfectly happy to excuse the lurkers. You post reads only intermittently, and without any real weight behind most of them allowing you to change them later.

I'm scummy because of a replace in post on Day 2 of one game I'm different in how many reads and thoughts I have than a start the game on Day 1 that hasn't even got to Day 2 yet?

RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE!

What is this, and why should anyone take it seriously? (DK doesn't count, because he's DK, but considering what just went down in [redacted] he should have a better opinion of how good I am reading players who are playing silly.)

[Thor665]

What pressure? The totality of my post and frustration was addressing foilist using one of the worst meta cases I've seen...this month. Actually, Scumhunter's might be worse for failure to explain it at all, but, whatevs.
All I did in response to you was call your play bad...so...yes?

[Thor665]

Why do you want me to explain a tunnel on a player in another game that is already over?

[Thor665]

@hiplop - a strong suggestion for the health of the game. Don't debate the DK's play quality. That way lies madness.
I would suggest, regardless of his alignment, him seeing me as more scummy than Scumhunter is actually a positive sign for me and a negative for Scumhunter.

Also, question - what's your opinion of foilist presenting a Day 2 replace in post by me as an example of how my playstyle is different? Also, go a step further and read what he posted, and tell me if you think my reads are better presented, clearer, and less ephemeral.

[Thor665]

@foilist - how do you feel about a hiplop lynch, and how do you feel about how he shifted from Scumhunter to me?

[Thor665]

@DK - replace out?

[Thor665]

I'm not being mean - but if you want to play the game I sort of feel you should play it. You're clearly not reading very well, which is already about half the game, and already we're starting to devolve into the whole 'DK discussion' thing, which I wasn't a fan of in [redacted] as it helped kill an entire day, and I won't be a fan of here.

[Thor665]

Riiiight. So by looking at 2-3 games of mine you've deduced that I'm 'mean' when I'm scum and include less jokes and stupid remarks? This can go in my collection next to Sotty's 'Thor jokes about being scum when he's scum' meta. In fact, I'm going to call that whole meta case more of a crock than the usual meta cases and move on;

Opinions. I asked for some from you Re: hiplop. Would love to see them.

[Thor665]

@foilist - how do you feel about a hiplop lynch, and how do you feel about how he shifted from Scumhunter to me?

In case you lost it.

[Thor665]

You're right, lack of presenting it will drive it like a red hot needle into my scummy forehead.

You're saying you wouldn't lose sleep over hiplop's maneuver? So a guy who got onto Scumhunter off of strength of agreeing with my read suddenly flips on me off the (and I insist off applying immense sarcasm to this next word) strength of your case on me - and you have no response to that?

At the time of his flip do you honestly think your case on me was impressive enough to cause that change?

[Thor665]

@foilist - nothing to comment on, huh?

[Thor665]

Actually I was just in an ongoning game where DK was killed.
I read him correctly, but had issues with his play. I think I also was IC for him once...though he may have been a replace in, and/or we might have lynched him Day 1, don't recall exactly.
I wasn't aware DK had a site wide rep though. I might accept that, insomuch as he's...memorable.

@Torquez - your last post you were not willing to call me scum, and simply said you didn't like my playstyle. What changed between your last two posts to actually make me scum now?

[Thor665]

@Thor: I doubt Hiplop changed solely because of my reasoning. I also fail to see where you're going with this. Am I supposed to find Hiplop scummy and then vote him? If so, why aren't you voting him? Or are you trying to convince me that the wagon on you is bad? If so, telling me how scummy the people on it are is independent of my read an you and therefore unlikely to change my mind.

Actually I'd rather lynch Scumhunter, but I'm sussing out if there is support for a hiplop lynch. Also, your reactions towards your wagon mates are tech on a few levels.

My read on hiplop is town for the moment because his behavior is consistent with what I have read of his town meta. However I get a scummy gut read from him, hence I wouldn't lose sleep over his lynch, but I'm not going to push for it.

So he's town but gut scum? This is different from null or no, because last time you said null with no town or gut scum, could you clarify any shift if there has been one?

You seem very interested in making snarky comments to people rather than defending yourself. Are you used to people feeling stupid and leaving you alone? That's the only thing I can think of that that would accomplish, which is the single most anti-town way of defending yourself that I can think of. We get no information on you or your attackers. We just find out who's a sheep and who isn't.

Yabba, yabba, yabba - Thor is anti-town, look how anti-town he is, gosh and golly everyone should vote an anti-town player, yessirree!

Actually, I do think showing that the case on me is silly is a viable defense, you appear to claim it as a viable defense for Scumhunter and my case on him. What would you rather have me say? "Hey guys, this case on me is awesome! Wow, I'm almost convinced I'm scum now!" Yeah...no. I'm also asking *many* more probing questions about my wagon than you are, so how about you don't complain about how we aren't learning anything about my wagon until you're actually apparently trying to learn something about it? If you have been analyzing the wagon intelligently - point me at it, I must have missed the posts.

[Thor665]

1) What exactly is your issue to my reaction to the people on your wagon with me? As I recall I haven't significantly questioned any of them yet.

2) My hiplop read has evolved since the first time you asked me about it. My guy twinges with him, but logic tells me he's town. I can't fully discuss my read on him because it involves an ongoing game.

3) You could try rationally responding to each point made against you.

1. My issue is exactly that - both the DK and Scumhunter wagons were way harder than this one, and this one also includes a couple of very odd flip/flops from some players. You...don't find that worth discussing?
2. Hmmm. So, not all my reads are terrible in your mind? Nice to know. What do you think of my Awesoma read?
3. ...huh? Besides you using Day 2 Meta in another game to show how my play in this game is 'different' would you mind explaining the "case" on me that I could go point by point with? It's all; "Thor is playing anti-town - or I disagree with his playstyle" neither of which is a valid scum case. Or there's your terribad meta thing - which I did refrute and you basically said "but...gut!" And...well, sure, but 'gut' I can't really point by point that, can I? And I'm certainly zapping at the way the wagon itself is forming so...what am I missing, I'ma terribly anti-town player at heart so I probably just missed the awesome point by point case on me. Link?

I didn't really like the fact DK put pressure and then just removed vote too quickly. And folist (with a fresh look), has the same feeling I had in my initial post about your playstyle/behaviour, etc.

I FoSed you then, and I find you even more suspicious now to warrant my vote. Like I said, I would be unopposed a lynch on yourself or Awesoma.

Playstyle and behavior are not scummy in a vacuum, but at least you're trying to justify this.
What did I do that was "more" suspicious though?
What are your thoughts on foilist calling me out for not refuting the case on me point by point - do you think there is a case on me I could refute point by point? If so - link? If not - why do you think he's asking for something impossible to do and saying my play is anti-town for not doing it?

[Thor665]

Here, I'll make you one.

Oooooh, not link, make. So...yeah, what a jerk I was for avoiding it, huh? Anti-town Thor doing anti-town things he couldn't have done.

This is the first thing that nicked my gut. I know you were not as positive as this post suggests because you are not voting Cloud's slot anymore. I also know that this wasn't just pressure since you've said very loudly several times that you vote only to lynch. If that's the case, then you were positive then, and you should still be positive now.

I'm not sure how to explain this without sounding like a jerk...thankfully I'm pretty comfortable with sounding like a jerk, so;
1. Dur, if you don't act positive you don't generate pressure. That's why I vote to lynch, because it generates pressure as opposed to saying "this is a vote for pressure, lawl" which generates...nothing.
2. Even if I was positive then...there's been, what, like 10 pages between then and now? Why do I still need to be positive? Also - I've still said I'd be happy to lynch Cloud, which suggests I *AM* still positive...so...what's the scumtell here again?
3. Do you really think my vote there had me honestly believing 100% I had caught scum? Really? If so - I am positive I am town - there, that should clear up this wagon.

This kills my faith in your reads. First you are positive about cloud, now what he did was only scummy, and has gotten more scummy. That doesn't mean obvious scum anymore. Again, your conviction can't be pressure since you claimed that it wasn't.

Oh, yes, how scummy of me to spot a scumtell, call it a scumtell, explain the scumtell, and express desire to lynch someone because of the scumtell.
Hey, Mr. Meta - look at *any* game I've played recently. It's what I do Day 1 - aggressive, early, loud wagons. That's actually what my issue with Scumhunter was because he seemed to be implying that I don't.

Lastly is the L-1 thing. Right now there are two conflicting possibilities. Either you have always been 100% on your read on cloud, or you really weren't positive at all. Both of these create serious issues.

Neither creates serious issues unless we accept the belief that L-1 is somehow scummy or bad, which I don't - but let's consider these, sure.

1) If you were 100% on your read on cloud it means you already know the roles. No one can have that strong of a gut reaction and be right a majority of the time. Judging by the number of games you've linked me to I would say you should know by now how accurate your gut is. So if you really were 100% it means you were scum playing a stupid strategy, scum bussing your partner for town cred, or you're just an idiot.

If I'm an idiot - I have equal chance of being a town or scum idiot - so this is a meaningless tell.

If I'm scum playing a stupid strategy it actually conflicts with your opinion of me knowing my gut well - so it's a messed up read since you're suggesting I'm smart enough that what I'm doing is stupid. Pick one and we can discuss the validity of the tell.

You admit I'm not an idiot below, good to know.
If I'm bussing my buddy than we should be lynching Cloud.
I also still can't believe how much you're buying into the 100% thing - seriously? What do you do when DGB claims Daycop? Believe her everytime? What is this dude, I'd expect to have this conversation with a Newbie, not a guy coming in announcing his IC creds - it makes no sense.

2) If you really weren't positive about your gut read then you are extremely anti-town. You're guiding the town to an early lynch without being sure of the result. This robs us of discussion, allows lurkers to skate by, and generally erodes the information available to the town. On top of this, it means you were being insincere about the strength of your reads and we now have less reason to trust you.

Please explain to me how anyone is supposed to be sure of the result. Are you sure on me? No, you're not, but you act sure and have a reasonable suspicion you're right, and that's fine. Don't hold me to a strange extra level of responsibility "just because" okay?
You did notice I claimed town, yeah? If we believe everything I say than...wheee!

3) The last possibility is that you were lying on a separate occasion and were in fact applying serious pressure rather than actually intending to lynch cloud. This is the least likely possibility since you allowed him to go to L-1 where he could have easily been hammered, which would defeat the purpose of the pressure. On top of that you said you weren't pressuring, and even if you're scum I think I can take your word for it.

I was applying pressure, and was comfortable with lynching him, the states can happily coexist - as I've openly said, so...yeah, good breakdown.
Link me to a game where scum went for an early hammer and won - when you show me that I'll consider how early L-1 is a bad idea.

The L-1 thing is what bothers me the most

And yet, it remains not a scumtell. You might as well be voting me for lurking, or not using capital letters - both are as valid as far as alignment goes. To think otherwise makes you anti-town

and here is how it plays in. Allowing someone to go to L-1 and encouraging the wagon greatly increases the likelihood of a hammer, especially in a newbie game, and especially since you're an IC. This makes me think that the first of the two possibilities is much more likely. If you weren't 100% on cloud you would have been unlikely to let it go that far. I don't accept that you think that kind of lynch is pro-town because based on your posts I'm fairly sure you're not actually an idiot.

Oooh, so we know I'm not an idiot...goood to know ^^^
Again, *in the game I was in with Scumhunter where he said I was playing more cautious my very first post includes commentary that the L-1 that had happened in that game should have been allowed to go further* I was town that game.
Whether or not you agree with it, I clearly, as town, have shown eager willingness to use L-1, on Day 1, in Newbie games.
This defeats the entire case - because, and watch as I shorten it up, let's present your entire case on me in abbreviated format;

L-1 is anti-town and it's bad Thor took it there (eh, maybe it was bad, but I proved meta wise that I do that as town, so this is a null tell for me [and is a playstyle differnce which is a nulltell for everyone])
Thor said he was 100% on the vote he advanced on Page 1-2, he then later changed his vote! (this actually looks like a towntell unless you choose to take me literally - which seems silly as someone who specifically noted how I tend to joke around a lot in my meta analysis you supposedly did)

So...how's that for a point by point of your two point case? I think it did okay, and that I'd already responded to all of these points before, quite frankly.

[Thor665]

I'm going to wait until we have more posting going on by others. See what they have to say about the situation at the moment and what they think (yes, Hellhound1, I'd like you to elaborate too plz if possible?)

What about my question of foilist's accusation to me that i haven't responded to the case, that I'm pretty sure didn't exist. Also, the case he just posted I'd already responded to everything before. I don't really see a valuable pro-town angle for you not to weigh in on that until other people show up - why not give it a spin just for giggles?

[Thor665]

He's actually refused to discuss his read of my meta further. But he's not anti-town like I am, so what can one do. He's obvious town - I know because you said so, and I was scummy for pressuring him to provide reads, Torq said that.

By 'it' do you mean the entire case on me? And if so, and if that's all it would take, um...why didn't you bother to look at any Day 1 meta from me in any of those games I linked as opposed to looking at Day 2 meta? I mean, I seriously do this all the time and it's blatantly obvious.
------------------------------------------
"Vote: Stefunny

Obvious scum is obvious because only scum pun."
------------------------------------------
"Vote: Fungrus

He called something pro-scum but decided *not* to vote anyone because...the person who did the pro-scum thing might be a newbie? With everyone else presumably being either a null or newbie read at that point him witholding his vote just looks silly and illogical since he did nothing to confirm a newbie or scum read on ender. Lack of scumhunting and illogical voting practices equate to scum."
------------------------------------------
"Vote: chkflp

I want him dead because I don't need chk in three games with me at once. He is scum, let's lynch him."
------------------------------------------
"Staeg looks really scummy.

Vote: Staeg

I'm a genius and very handsome, probably lots of people should follow this vote."
------------------------------------------
Those are all first votes in Newbie games where I was town.

Seriously dude, I linked these already - what's the case on me again? Also, feel free to ignore that last question, it's rhetorical, what isn't rhetorical was the jabs I was making at you as regards 100% believing everything I said when I claimed obvious scum on Cloud, and I made that comment about DGB claiming Daycop and how you react to it - there's literally dozens of very good players here on site who regularly make aggressive and outlandish assurances of 100% scum when voting someone...why am I the one scummy for doing it? Seriously, I want you to address why you believed me so strongly it became 50% of the scum case on me.

[Thor665]

Just for fun (and because I like seeing myself talk, here I am in non-newbies;

---------------this game I'm up for a scummy for-------------------
How about you bandwagon lynch instead, iamusername has two votes on him and knows he's busted scum which is why he's hiding from our righteous vengeance.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Vote: Mikujin

Third leading wagon ftw. Totally serious vote.
------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm calling Socio and Sudo as scum. More to be added as reads become clearer.

Vote: Sudo
--------------------------------------------------------------
Looks like in Newbies I try to be a little nicer and actually vaguely explain things on occasion. In non-newbies I don't even seem to sweat that.

[Thor665]

@

Hellhound

foilist - Let's break it down; Awesoma is new - I think we can both agree with that. The only way, to my mind, that he is scum right now is if he is actually pretty darn good at the game and is pulling a fairly elaborate double blind trick. Let's ignore that, and just go with the presumption he's a new player, yeah? So, let's walk it through;

Awsomascum - oh man, the heat is really on me! Everyone is figuring out I am scum! I've got to do something to get them off my back! I know, I'll claim! Yeeeeeaaah!!! That will get them to leave me alone! BRILLIANT! Now, I'll need to craft a brilliant and wonderful claim that will get them to leave me alone and not suspect me. Hay guyiz! Imma Vanilla, which means I'm basically pointless as far as protecting town power roles go!

::snicker:: they'll never lynch me now...mwu-hahahaha!

Seriously? You see that happening?
I don't.

Also;

@foilist - I would like to know why your case had 50% basis in me being dead 100% serious in calling Cloud obv. scum.

[Thor665]

Huge post o' explaining Awesoma scum

My quick counter to it is this - a lot of your case is based off of predicting what a newbie would do, while also claiming he has knowledge of the game. Meh...not really selling me/
Also, your unvote tell, which might be your strongest, is blown away in my mind since I just got through a newbie game where all the newbies were unvoting constantly as soon as anyone so much as posted a smilie in their direction.
Finally - Occam's Razor - your case is predictaed on him knowing mafia from another site, playing with that mindset, partway through the day reading up on our meta here, and changing his play...yeah...whut? No, that's kinda silly, you can't change the way he's using local meta partway through the read arbitrarily because it is helpful to your case. Stop that.

@Thor: I need you to rephrase your question about my case on you.

I also still can't believe how much you're buying into the 100% thing - seriously? What do you do when DGB claims Daycop? Believe her everytime? What is this dude, I'd expect to have this conversation with a Newbie, not a guy coming in announcing his IC creds - it makes no sense.

A big part of your case (half) was about how I was 'certain' that Cloud was scum and that was scummy...and then I changed my vote which was even more scummy. Regard the above statement about Daycops, and certainty on Page 1-2 and then answer why you thought I was so certain, for realz, yo!!1!

[Thor665]

Oh, and foilist - you're currently voting Cloud, you may want to adjust that.

[Thor665]

Though I do think it's your best vote thus far.

[Thor665]

It would really make me happy if more people started to act town.
Awesoma is, by far, my strongest town read - and that's because he's playing so weakly. My second strongest town read right now is foilist...and I literally have not agreed with like, *anything* he's posted. C'mon guys, I'm easy going, don't make this so hard.

[Thor665]

Since no one has presented reason 1 that I look scum yet, and we just had a huge case run up on me that I was able to crush the instant it was presented, and you just went fleeing off of voting me to wagon up a guy I've been pushing strongly for, and we have at least two players being called scummy because they're buddying me (and you don't buddy scummy looking players and get called scum for it) I think it's pretty obvious that I'm playing the best town game here.

What am I missing?

[Thor665]

You're sarcastic at the wrong times, you use AtE out the ass, you support stupid wagons, you don't effectively pressure anyone in any useful way except to make them flail, and you are the most anti-town IC I've ever seen. Wagoning you is a waste of time because I'm pretty sure you're town at this point and I wouldn't get anything useful out of it anyway.

This from the guy who uses one game of Day 2 meta to explain why someone is scum because they're playing differently during Day 1 while not looking at Day 1 play at all, and when shown Day 1 play unvotes because his case was crushed?
This is sarcasm at a bad time again, isn't it?

I'll happily debate these things post game, I really don't think I'm a bad IC at all and have been nominated twice for Best IC in the Scummies, so if I am bad I'm at least fooling a lot of people about it. I do have a different chosen meta than the "oh dear gawd, L-1 is SCARY!!!" crowd of ICs, but I actually think that's a good thing for newbies to learn since that's how L-1 is treated everywhere else on the boards, and the point of a Newbie game is to show them how we play on MS - not how we play a different game in Newbie games.

[Thor665]

@foilist - in a less snarky and more game related question, that does touch on my town play

You called out Awesoma as scummy for buddying me. If I don't look townie - how is this a scumtell?

[Thor665]

But this post of yours, I felt a bit out of character. Okay, you were on L-1, and I didn't like that. Was hoping someone would unvote (which eventually happened). But I feel the nature of your style changed a bit. You weren't appealing to reason, it was more like "omg plzzzzzzzz dont lynch me." Which doesn't really make sense to me based on your good posts earlier.

In Scumhunter's defense, I've seen him pull this sad little 'I'm town, sob, sob' fest before. Frankly, the only thing questionable about it is that it took so long to show up.

Are you ready to offer thoughts on foilists' case on me now? Or is it still too early to offer your opinion on stuff?

It would really make me happy if more people started to act town.
Awesoma is, by far, my strongest town read - and that's because he's playing so weakly. My second strongest town read right now is foilist...and I literally have not agreed with like, *anything* he's posted. C'mon guys, I'm easy going, don't make this so hard.

Who, to be exact?

How about everyone who's town for starters.

[Thor665]

I tried explaining over and over that I was just stating my suspicions on Thor. The fact he kept pushing me for "evidence" of my suspicions on me really baffled me. I mean Smurf what is so wrong with just stating your suspicions and leaving it at that for the time being.

Probably it was when you voted me over those reasons - this might have made sense if you never did, but...

@Thor, the reason the wagon on me is tougher is because I'm fighting it pretty hard and not just laying down and accepting a ML. You have pushed quite hard on me and assuming you are town, mafia are sheeping right along with you probably. Open your eyes, get out of the Smurf Smurfed tunnel.

I pushed back on my lynch too, and it ballooned up a lot quicker than the one on you in my opinion, including people who were sheeping me because my case was so good suddenly switching over to voting me.
Who do you think are the scum on your wagon and why?

[Thor665]

You called hiplop a 'not really sure' why the change to 'suspicious' now?
Also - how have I failed in communication? You agree you had an emotional knee jerk bad case vote on me - how does that make me bad for calling you on it? Is it just that I didn't fall to my knees in praise once you dropped your non-case on me? Or is it something else?

[Thor665]

@SH - If you didn't mind his initial vote on you, what's bad about re-voting you?

[Thor665]

Thor, do you still find cloud/DK slot scummy? If so, can we reach a compromise with a vote there today?

I do, but I'd like to figure out hiplop a bit more first - would you be happy with helping me lynch hiplop?
Also - have you given a read on Awesoma lately?

[Thor665]

Thor,I read Awesoma as eager town although I'd have to reread to confirm that. At this time, I prefer a hiplop vote over everyone with the exception of DK. So yea, I'd like to figure out hiplop's motives here myself. What do you make of DK saying he didn't read the game before voting me? Do you believe that?

Sadly - I 100% believe that coming from DK.

Unvote: Scumhunter
Vote: hiplop

Let's see what happens here.
Awesoma wagon is blargh.

[Thor665]

In Scumhunter's defense, I've seen him pull this sad little 'I'm town, sob, sob' fest before. Frankly, the only thing questionable about it is that it took so long to show up.

Do you remember where, by any chance?

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 11&t=17472

Sure, but I'm wondering if it matters anymore, since he's not voting you?

If the question doesn't matter I wouldn't ask it three times. I want to see your opinions on a case you sheeped.

I've previously outlined why I think your scummy, but it largely revolved around your "L-1" viewpoint and your abrasive (I felt) behaviour. Does it make you necessarily scum? No. Does it make you necessarily town? No.

Protip: That makes it a terrible reason to vote someone. You might as well decide to vote the first player who posts a prepositional phrase.

Yep! It was quite odd you were defending his roleslot, then he comes in and votes you.

Really? I take that as a town tell on DK, personally. He distanced from it by admitting he hadn't read anything though, which peeved me off.

Why do you want to lynch DK first instead of Awesoma?

[Thor665]

Thor, can you please explain why you think im scum? i havent seen anything about it, other than OMGUS because i was after you

You've asked me this before and I've answered it before.
I don't mind answering questions if I think there's a reason for them, I don't even really mind repeating myself (well, actually, I really do - but I consider repitition a good scumhunting tool and use it, so I'm forced to abide by my own standards for others ), but we just had this conversation a few real life days ago - whassup?
How about you look for it, and if you still can't find it ask again and I'll link it up for you.
Here's a hint - look in your own iso, since you talked about it with me - your iso is probably way shorter than mine.

[Thor665]

Weak and lazy there, hiplop, weak and lazy.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 9#p3154349

There's the post.
By the way - I made that case *before* you voted me. Making your vote waaaaay more OMGUS than me calling you scum. Whassup?

[Thor665]

Oh, and I'll add onto that case the flip back to Scumhunter, also for reasons I've already explained and noted.

[Thor665]

That and your opportunistic votes with no seeming connected town thought process behind them, yes.

[Thor665]

The Scumhunter --> Thor --> Scumhunter doesn't make sense for a town player to have done the way you did.

Scumhunter is pressured up.
Scumhunter is scum because...I agree with Thor's case!
Thor is pressured up.
Thor is scum because...I trusted him enough to sheep a case, but, ah, yeah, let's sheep another case which everyone who is asked about it is now admitting was fabricated and basically never existed, Thor is scum!
Thor wuss slaps case.
Ah...Thor was always town, I just forgot, Scumhunter remains scum, even though believeing Scumhunter was town was pretty much 50% of the Thor=scum case. Scumhunter is scum!

Town motive for those movements? I don't know.
Scum motive? Very clear.

[Thor665]

Protip: That makes it a terrible reason to vote someone. You might as well decide to vote the first player who posts a prepositional phrase.

Umm, I've already said it in greater detail revolving around your behaviour. It wasn't just this fact. But your inconsistency is annoying. It's okay for you to vot to lynch someone by way of rushing them to L-1, but you ridicule the reasons why I had been voting for you. Okay, thanks.

There is no inconsistency at all. You certainly haven't seen me voting anyone while admitting that the primary thrust of the case says nothing about whether or not they are scum/town or just jerk/annoying. Big difference - in my rushes I claimed I found their actions made them scum.

If you thought foilist's case on me was weaksauce - why'd you sheep him? The big issue with me appears to be that I was pressuring up people for weaksauce reasons...I'm probably being an idiot and missing the actual thrust, could you clue me in why you backed the play of someone with a weak case who hadn't really presented it at all?

Really? I take that as a town tell on DK, personally. He distanced from it by admitting he hadn't read anything though, which peeved me off.

Town tell? How so? He came in and voted for someone that others said was scummy? Then he goes on about random lynching and mylynches and what not.

1. Him going on about mislynches is meaningless to this conversation question.
2. "Hi, I'm scum, I have this one twit town totally convinced I'm town to the point he's raging on the IC to try to save me, what to do, what to do...oh, yeah, let's get that guy lynched"
Doesn't make sense, does it? Not really - total town tell until he admitted he hadn't read up, now it's a meaningless tell.

[Thor665]

Fail quotes are fail - my bad.
Here it is pretty, for those who want it;

Spoiler: Pretty version

Protip: That makes it a terrible reason to vote someone. You might as well decide to vote the first player who posts a prepositional phrase.

Umm, I've already said it in greater detail revolving around your behaviour. It wasn't just this fact. But your inconsistency is annoying. It's okay for you to vot to lynch someone by way of rushing them to L-1, but you ridicule the reasons why I had been voting for you. Okay, thanks.

There is no inconsistency at all. You certainly haven't seen me voting anyone while admitting that the primary thrust of the case says nothing about whether or not they are scum/town or just jerk/annoying. Big difference - in my rushes I claimed I found their actions made them scum.

If you thought foilist's case on me was weaksauce - why'd you sheep him? The big issue with me appears to be that I was pressuring up people for weaksauce reasons...I'm probably being an idiot and missing the actual thrust, could you clue me in why you backed the play of someone with a weak case who hadn't really presented it at all?

Really? I take that as a town tell on DK, personally. He distanced from it by admitting he hadn't read anything though, which peeved me off.

Town tell? How so? He came in and voted for someone that others said was scummy? Then he goes on about random lynching and mylynches and what not.

1. Him going on about mislynches is meaningless to this conversation question.
2. "Hi, I'm scum, I have this one twit town totally convinced I'm town to the point he's raging on the IC to try to save me, what to do, what to do...oh, yeah, let's get that guy lynched"
Doesn't make sense, does it? Not really - total town tell until he admitted he hadn't read up, now it's a meaningless tell.

[Thor665]

We also appear to agree on Cloud/DK it's just one of us needs some OMGUS to grease the wheels

[Thor665]

How does believing I'm town weaken a belief in Scumhunter town? There's actually no connection there at all.

[Thor665]

He has 16 because we should have hammered Cloud 6 pages ago

@hiplop - Day 1 "one is town the other is scum" is pretty much one of the most horrible traps town can fall into, and scum love to set it up or sell town on it. Why? Because then if you lynch one of them and he flips town, everyone is eager to rush into that second lynch because "hey, either/or trollololol!" Generally speaking, however, a vast amount of these either/or cases are based off of simply the two players arguing a lot...which is meaningless to alignment except *maybe* suggesting they aren't partners (and anyone who thinks I'm partners with Scumhunter is either super silly or super paranoid, quite frankly - remember when the case was I was scummy because I wanted to lynch him too quick? Yeah). In any case - let me assure you there is less than zero evidence that if I'm town Scumhunter = scum. Could he be scum? Sure. But there's no actual support to your belief, and if you're town you are helping scum by falling into the arguing = one of them is scum trap. Extract yourself.

@Torq - Really, what I meant was very simply the above. Scum and I could be Town/Scum, we could also be Town/Town and there's no clear evidence to suggest one is more likely unless you really believe my case on Scumhunter - in which case it's still Thor town and Scum scum, and the either/or thing shouldn't even be part of the discussion. Also - if you're going to pick on DK for being DK please just say you want to policy lynch him because you don't like his playstyle - he is very (unfortunately) unlikely to change by you just sounding exasperated with him. Trust me.

[Thor665]

@Thor, which probably makes cloud/DK town, so boo at you. So assuming hiplop scum...lynching town all those pages ago is not what we should have done. I refuse to settle for D1 just being ML day, sorry. A ML on any day should always be a huge disappointment imo.

Though if he had flipped town we wouldn't have the DK problem we have now (and trust me, if you can't see how he's a problem if he's town you're blind)
Also we'd have a shorter thread which wouldn't be causing these other players to claim 'awww, reading up' as much of an excuse (trust me, scum will hide behind that one at some point this game)
We'd also avoid at least one claim, which is only helping scum.
Finally, we'd have still had relational tells that, if hiplop is scum, could have aimed us at him tomorrow. You've seen me catch scum off a town mislynch that I lead before - and scum on Day 2 is still pretty functional.

::shrug:: Yeah, mislynch Day 1 isn't the best thing in the world, but I'd take a mislynch in 10 solid pages over a correct lynch in 20 so/so pages and consider it overall a superior game situation for town. Town wears down quicker than scum.

so just based on what you've said over the last couple of reasons? That'd be the case on him?
[snip]
But tbh, I still prefer an Awesoma or a DK lynch at this time.

Have you presented a case on either of them?

Thought; both of your prime suspects are what I would define as the weaker players in this game. Do you think you suspect them for being scum, or being weak players?

[Thor665]

Lol wut? Correctly lynching 1 of 2 mafia d1 is inferior game situation for town compared to a quick ML. What is this, I don't even.

I quite clearly explained why I believe this. Frankly, I'd rather lynch scum Day 2 over Day 1 any game.

[Thor665]

@Scumhunter - do not mistake 'believe is preferable' with 'is also preferable not to even try' - otherwise, whatevs.
@Torqez - Please explain how Awesoma (especially) and DK have been opportunistically bandwagoning?

[Thor665]

If it makes you feel better - for the foreseeable future I'm ignoring foilist when he uses a meta case because he's clearly bad at them

Why do you not want us to hammer? Are you planning to claim, or provide a nice final posting of reads, or something? I mean, at the moment it seems hammer is where we're headed so I'm curious why you asked us not to while not actually saying why we shouldn't just yet.

[Thor665]

Unvote: hiplop
Vote: DK

If there is a 'real' JKer I actually say don't counterclaim yet, wait till tomorrow and get a use out of your power. DK's predecessor was scummy, and DK himself is a decent policy lynch, so I'm okay with this.

@Scumhunter - if hiplop is really town, reference back to my discussion about when and how Day 1 lynches happen in a better manner and note the claim commentary - relevant.

[Thor665]

I never joke.

You want to lynch an uncounterclaimed JKer?

[Thor665]

Wow, you guys exploded and there's a lot worth commenting on;

Are you still opposing lynching him Thor?

If he is scum, going after someone else means either lynching a townie, outing a PR, or getting another fakeclaim that will cause just as many problems. The most likely scenario is that we'll lynch a townie.

1. Yes.
2. Which is why I'm going after DK on policy and scumminess since he's already claimed. Whassup?

if we are not lynching hiplop I'd rather aim for a potential hiplop partner like Torqez instead.

Eh - I see only minor value in lynching a 'partner' of someone we don't even know is scum yet. You should vote DK - remember that long ago time (3 days ago) when you wanted to lynch him? Go with that.

Also, a JK other than hiplop SHOULD 100% ABSOLUTELY CC. [snip] It is the equivalent of a cop having a guilty report and not outing it...!!!

Except that in this case, if the 'real' JKer dies we automatically learn the investigation result and target - so actually it's totally different than a cop investigation result.

@Thor: lol @ you talking to me about my vote on DK, then as soon as u get a chance you want to 'policy lynch'. Interesting player you are indeed! Helpful to town? I don't believe so.

You show an amazing ability here to suggest that after the person I wanted to lynched claimed a PR role that I should remain absolutely the same in all my reads.
You also ignored that I'm willing to call DK scummy because of Cloud - something you aren't doing, you're just saying he's a weak player and...lynch...for justice?

I dont like how you and foilist are going after a PR ... pursue them tomorrow if i die Thor?

::shrug:: We'll see. Usually I just get drunk and try to steamroll lynch the first person who i think looks at me funny.

aka setting up lynches. Not good my friend

He wasn't setting up lynches unless you were scum, so...

[Thor665]

@Scumhunter - do the universe a favor and go do a meta check on DK too.

Not a foilist style meta check, do a Thor style one...well, actually just do a real one, all I do is claim that I found what I wanted and cite it as meta, so I'm a terrible example. If he's scum - yaaaay! If he's town...yaaaay we needed him dead anyway.
Plus, you seem to now agree Cloud was actually scummy - so yaaaay, there too.

[Thor665]

True enough. I still think the value of getting 1 of the 2 scum guaranteed on day 1 is well worth it!

You're basing it on a false premise though; your method is only more viable if he is scum, but if he's not my method is *immensely* more viable, and is still viable if he's scum as well whereas yours is not viable at all if he is town.

[Thor665]

Weak hammer is weak. You should be proud of a hammer or shouldn't do it.

[Thor665]

@DK - you can't accuse people of not scumhunting while also claiming that a mislynch always happens Day 1. Both of your comments are incorrect as well.

@foilist - who should we have lynched and why?

[Thor665]

If it caused you that much fear maybe you should have unvoted? Please can the histronics, we're not in a bad position, though we are in a very interesting one.

@hiplop - claim target please.

@Awesoma - thoughts on the DK wagon?
@Shahri - same question.

Vote: Shahri

[Thor665]

Night analysis usually comes from scum.

I strongly disagree with this as a tell and consider night analysis a good thing.

[Thor665]

Why?

[Thor665]

Whatever, we're not lynching him today though so...who would you like us to lynch?
@Scumhunter - you're doing it all wrong again.

[Thor665]

What points? You want me to sound off on the PR debate - because that's all you've done today and it's not really helpful or needed to my mind, and I don't really want to wade in there and help feed the debate. Is there something else I'm missing?

[Thor665]

Also, why is Hellhound town, Thor? You gave a pretty convincing explanation about Awesomea, but I'm not seeing it with Thor. Today's WIFOM-vomit and yesterday's play altogether doesn't strike me as particularly town.

I don't recall my reasons off hand - I'll look back and get an answer to this for you later today or tomorrow.

[Thor665]

Scumhunter, Awesoma, hellhound1, shahrizai

These players need to get a couple votes out on the playing field. The game only moves forward when there's a wagon, and our lack of any wagons is why no one has much of worth to say other than some giant walls of slap-fest-city that comprise most of this and last page and which I'm pretty sure I didn't miss much by not reading at all.

Someone should probably sheep me and vote Shahriz.

[Thor665]

Just read my posts. i made them short

Just because I'm not lynching you doesn't mean I'm lynching Hellhound on that logic.

@Scumhunter - hate you, grow grapefruit and use them.

@Hellhound - please stop voting hiplop, he's not the lynch today - the 'value' of your case is just as applicable to prove he's town as it is to prove he's scum. How about you figure out who his buddy is, I might be willing to vote his buddy.

[Thor665]

@Hellhound - if you're not voting hiplop that suggests you don't want to lynch him.
If you don't want to lynch him why am I reading a page of you argy-barging with him?
Who should we lynch?

[Thor665]

I support that lynch more than a you lynch, but less than a Shah lynch. Other than 'he suspetz me, lolz!" is there much to the Hellhound case?

[Thor665]

Let's presume I didn't read your post; how about you summarize all the parts in it where you explained he was scum while not using "he doubts mah role" in the case. That would be awesome.

[Thor665]

I'm fine with that - vote Shahri.

[Thor665]

Thor: I had to plow through pages of your walls with Cloud, and you're complaining about a page and a half? You also still haven't answered my question as to why Hellhound is so town, and I think you had some interesting things to say about not answering questions on D1, so what's with the double standard? You also haven't posted anything justifying a vote on me, and I'm curious as to your reasoning for wanting me lynched. Also, you seem to have missed the fact that I HAD a vote on Hellhound, and took it off when he satisfied my questions. I also stated I would be making my points on Torquez later, but I had real life things to do. Reading the game is pro-town.

Careful - in that commentary block you actually explain why there's not much reason in me explaining a town read on someone you apparently don't feel like lynching. I'm lazy, I was sick Fri-Saturday (and maybe Sunday, though I'm feeling better) and I was doing lylo in one game and replacing into another. Making a town case on someone not even being pressed as a wagon? Pretty low on the priority scale. In fact, I don't even really see the point.

I want you lynched because I think Awesoma is town and I know DK and foilist were - what of it?

Also, you HAVING HAD a vote out does very little to help me when I want you to HAVE a vote out, yeah? Admittedly now, after I bring that up, you jump on Torq so...neutral feel there now, I at least like how the case considers actual motives moving forward, which is more than the Hellhound case had/has - still, thinking you're scum.

[Thor665]

So, you'll restate your case for me now then?

[Thor665]

Because I don't know that you're town. Your case on him is functionally based off your alignment.
As I've sorta said already.
Other than that all you've got is him buddying me - which really all that does is tell you I'm town based off you suspecting he's scum. Other than that, buddying in a Newbie is a weaksauce tell.

Who do you think his partner is?

[Thor665]

Thor, why have you backed off so much on your scum read on me? It seems a bit unnatural to go from full-fledged attack mode on me yesterday to not even mentioning a bit of paranoia as to my alignment today. Why is that?

Because in this game people still have a hard time figuring out that when I say this;
"Obvious scum is super obvious, we should speed lynch him"
It's actually just IC speak - allow me to translate it into Newb speak;
"I'mma vote for pressure, lulz! No one hammer too quick cuz wants to see how he reacts!"
You should vote for Shahri though, she's obv. scum - 4 realz this time!!1! (swear!)

thor isnt even trying today. Not a fan of that

I've been trying to get a Shahri wagon going all day today - which means I've done just as much functionally today as you have, except I haven't complained that you're not contributing

[Thor665]

you havent even said why though. just that shaz is scum, im at least doing something productive.

Cases are overrated - as I just showed with your case.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 23&t=17331

That's a game I was just in. My lynches were;
Day 1 - town
Day 2 - scum
Day 3 - wanted scum but settled for town because other town wouldn't sheep me.
Day 4 - scum GF with innocent result from cop.
Day 5 - scum I wanted from Day 3.

I made a case on the GF, and that was it. All my other cases were about as well explained as my case on Shahri.
So - now that we know cases mean jack all in actually catching scum we can assess them for what they are - a means to convince people that you've caught scum. I usually just rely on my reputation and charming beard for that. If you really want me to go into a case it's PoE because I don't think both scum were on the wagon yesterday, plus her lurktitude. Yes, that's my entire case. It's as good (in my opinion better than) your case. (it's better because it doesn't require an opinion of your alignment to work)

So, what am I not doing today?
Besides, what's your issue with me - you have to know I'm more likely town than anyone else here but you, so maybe you should just sheep me too. Yeah?

[Thor665]

It really does. I'm fine if you don't think it does, but it really does.
I'm showing that "making cases" is irrelevant to catching scum - which with you calling me out for not making cases was relevant both in a general game sense and in a specific Thor meta sense.
Now all you're saying is "I'm not trying" which *is* a meta case because it suggests you believe you know me enough to understand how much I should be trying.
What's up man?

[Thor665]

Are you even accussing me of anything by saying I'm not trying? Because you feel like you're backing off of it to a general "everyone should be trying" stance, in which case I'm not sure why you think I need to be called out specifically. Clarify?

[Thor665]

So basically - a meta complaint that I'm not being active enough?
You did note the post from a few days ago when I pointed out that there was a reason the game was lagging out and it was because no one was putting out votes. I still stand by that - I can keep rampaging about people needing to vote (as I have and I will) but until I can get them to vote the game is stalled. Nothing else can be done about it.
You should probably start demanding people sheep you, you're an un CCed PR role, totally people should be sheeping your awesome case of win, yeah?

[Thor665]

Everyone should sheep him, he's wasting time grumping at people he doesn't even think are scum!

Also, everyone should sheep me because I'm twice as handsome and my beard is four times as impressive as his.

[Thor665]

This is so terrible.

Unvote: Shahri
Vote: Hellhound1

I don't even expect him to flip scum.
but he is obv. scum.

[Thor665]

Or Shahri, you may suck me off of her.

As stands, your entire post was pretty useless besides being self-righteous towards hiplop - which only really applies if you think he's town.

[Thor665]

You should probably vote someone - even Shahri managed to do that, and she's scum.

[Thor665]

@hiplop - why not just show him the quotes to make him shut his pie hole?

@Mod - is anyone in prod range? I feel like I'm in a lylo situation here with only three players talking.

[Thor665]

Unvote: Hellhound
Vote: Shahri

Then grapefruit up, buddy.

[Thor665]

Lurkitude=I replaced into a game with 16 pages of walls, and it took me a while to catch up. I asked everyone to respect that I was trying to catch up, but I didn’t get the chance. I did catch up in the break, and have been posting as frequently as possible sense then. I was visiting my best friend this past weekend, as her wedding is July 30, and I am the maid of honor, and we had a lot of errands to do. She lives four hours from me, and her future mother-in-law who is planning the wedding is a beast, and we had a really busy weekend. I posted when I had a break from the drama, but Sunday was really busy and I traveled home on Monday, and today I slept trying to recuperate. I can’t answer for Ninjacheese’s lurking, but I’ve done the best I can to get into this game and get a handle on it while still doing what I need to do in real life.

Wow.

That is a lot of information.

I feel like I hit a target very close to the mark somehow.

I'll even agree with you that Torq is lurking and is terrible - but he was on the wagon yesterday, and so though he may be scum he's not the scum who was off the wagon - that's you. plus, at this stage, if you flip scum he is obv. town, which will be awesome because he's a pain to read.

What's your read on Hellhound now? Still against hiplop's case there?

[Thor665]

I'd rather be 0-2 than N/A. There's nothing wrong with being 0-2.
If you flip town i'd analyze your wagon and start again. Right now, going on the presumption you're town, are lynched, and not getting to see the rest of the wagon - I'd probably look at Scumhunter.
Depends on the NK too though, there's some bubbling pots there as well.

[Thor665]

IC Blather

To...well, Hellhound, who is, I think, the only true Newbie left. Replace outs are a sad truth of the site - though they do tend to happen more often in Newbie games and more often in long games. There are some strategies revolving around long and short games which you can eventually explore - but just as a play consideration concept pay attention to how the replace outs are punishing this game and try to play accordingly in all your future games. I hate replace outs, and I have never had to be replaced (and barely ever prodded).

On a personal note, I do think this game is going "long" for a Newbie but without actually being functionally long - we're long, but not with valuable pages. In case you wonder why I poo-poo playstyles that keep talking about slowing stuff down in Newbie games I do point to situations like this.

[Thor665]

Though I submit overdefensiveness and OMGUS aren't scumtells

[Thor665]

I disagree that it's a towntell too - but I'm a disagreeable person.

[Thor665]

That is a sweet, if scary, upgrade. Now we just need to get Fate to replace Awesoma and this thread will be perfect.

[Thor665]

What information are you gaining from these pushes Thor?

Who will vote who, how and why.

You pushed hard on me, then basically ignored me for a long time, and now you would “probably look at me” again.

In the theoretical that Shah flips town - yes. What is the problem with that? After I look at you once it's scummy to look at you again? That makes no sense. By that logic you voting me is scummy.

I'd really like to see a full reads list from you on every slot in the game.

Awesoma - town
Hellhound1 - leaning town
shahrizai ninjacheese - Scum
Torqez (SE) Swag136 - leaning scum
hiplop (SE) - town
Scumhunter (SE) - leaning scum
Thor665 (IC) - bearded.

What's your full read on everyone?

[Thor665]

I want [Shahri] lynched because I think Awesoma is town and I know DK and foilist were - what of it?

That's the case.
My working theory is that both scum were not on the DK wagon.
Before you go "this is a terrible case" I will point out in the last game you and I were both in this is the *exact* type of case I used on Day 2 to catch scum.

[Thor665]

We've had this discussion before, haven't we? I've certainly answered that question before - I could go re-quote it if you wish, but my reasons are the same now as then.

[Thor665]

This is for Scumhunter.

My buttocks feel cold now.

@Hellhound - Let's break it down; Awesoma is new - I think we can both agree with that. The only way, to my mind, that he is scum right now is if he is actually pretty darn good at the game and is pulling a fairly elaborate double blind trick. Let's ignore that, and just go with the presumption he's a new player, yeah? So, let's walk it through;

Awsomascum - oh man, the heat is really on me! Everyone is figuring out I am scum! I've got to do something to get them off my back! I know, I'll claim! Yeeeeeaaah!!! That will get them to leave me alone! BRILLIANT! Now, I'll need to craft a brilliant and wonderful claim that will get them to leave me alone and not suspect me. Hay guyiz! Imma Vanilla, which means I'm basically pointless as far as protecting town power roles go!

::snicker:: they'll never lynch me now...mwu-hahahaha!

Seriously? You see that happening?
I don't.

Awesoma and Hellhound are town.
Cloud or Scumhunter should be lynched, and I'm starting to strongly lean Scumhunter - though, heck, maybe it's just because cloud is lurking out so hardcore.

@hiplop - you still alive man? What do you think of my four reads above?

@MOD - request cattle prod

[Thor665]

Thor: Is "N/A" in reference to my not having a vote on anyone by the end of day yesterday? Because I would have had a vote on SOMEONE had I been given the opportunity to finish reading the game before the hammer was prematurely dropped. Also, why investigate Scumhunter after I flip town? Any particular reasons (other than the pile I'm about to put out here)?

In case you missed this?

Because Scumhunter is scummy.

Also, aside from Thor, who is scum?

This is a good question...though i already asked it...though he already ducked it once so it bears repeating.

[Thor665]

I don't mention those strategies because they always give me too much WIFOM.

If Shah flips town I do think it looks immensely like Torq=town for two reasons.
1. Both scum off the DK wagon? I doubt it.
2. He really has been her only legitimate push - all she's doing is distancing? I doubt it.

My summary of the Shah case is - PoE, so I actually appreciate that you already came in and said you agree with it.

Who do you think is scum amongst me and hiplop? Because your note about the Scumhunter wagon is making me nervous about you since I agree with it.

[Thor665]

Yeah, withdraw the Torq thing, for some reason in my head he wasn't on the DK wagon. That invalidates that connection.

[Thor665]

PoE is not laziness. PoE is scumhunting.

Unvote: Shahri
Vote: Albert B

[Thor665]

albert is torquez?

Thor get back on hellhound plz

I think hellhound is town so...no.
I could get on Scumhunter if, for no other reason, he's avoiding answering a simple question of what his reads are - but I'm not getting on Hellhound.

Sure, PoE is viable, after a few more flips. Right now there have been two town flips and no informative uses of a PR, so no, PoE is not an ideal strategy right now.

Just as an example of how PoE does work - if I'd been cop I wouldn't have been investigating the player scum killed last night because I was able to PoE him into town. I'm not dissing your scumhunting method (whatever it is - I'm not sure yet) but I fail to see why you think your method is so clearly superior to my method. We have two flips - two flips is two flips regardless of if they are scum or VT or PRs. Also, with two claimed PRs we know for a fact at least one of them is town - giving us 2.5 "flips" if you will. Plus, PoE doesn't require flips, and flips pretty much help all scumhunting styles equally.

I agree with you that an investigate on hiplop is 'meh' at this stage. I don't get Muffin's plan there either - I'd rather have you investigate...well...someone who doesn't get NKed
A good idea is usually to investigate the counter wagon-ee or to go with gut, but try to avoid players who look town (especially Night 1) because they're most likely to end up dead.

WOAH WOAH WOAH. I think we caught scum guys.

I'm the doctor. Shah is lying out of her REAR.

Why is Shah lying and not hiplop?
Happy with where my vote currently sits.

[Thor665]

@Albert - how do you feel about mining the non PRs for the buddy and leaving obv. scum Shah till tomorrow?

Also, what's your read on Muffin's take of the cop claim from obv. scum Shah?

[Thor665]

I will vote for hiplop. If he flips scum, I will protect Shah. If Shah doesn't claim a guilty tomorrow, lynch her right away. If I'm right, we win. If I'm wrong about Shah, then you have 1/3 chance of lynching correctly between one scum and two townies at LYLO.

Unvote, vote hiplop

This I can get behind.

Hiplop claiming town read on Shah and then saying you're making things complicated when really, if she's town and he's town things aren't complicated at all by your claim.

[Thor665]

If he's scum he's playing a dangerous game of trading himself for both PRs - considering that I am neutral on how "powerful" a JKer is until there's one dead scum, and consider a 1v1 trade of cop for scum to be good - I'm content with his plan.

[Thor665]

How is it our loss? You'd rather lynch Albert today and lose Shah tonight for the gain of...you?

[Thor665]

Ok but Thor, there is one flaw in all this. What if hiplop is really JK and then neither pr dies tonight?

Depends on the cop result, I suppose.
I'm choosing not to outline my strategy for tomorrow for scum today.

Albert's plan is really bad if hiplop flips town though. We have to lynch scum today or tomorrow - and his plan has outlined a possible 3 mislynch contingency.

[Thor665]

Actually Shah can claim whatever she wants if hiplop is town because tomorrow is LYLO. SO just skip to the part where Shah and I pull our hair out and scratch each other.

Yes.

[Thor665]

How is it our loss? You'd rather lynch Albert today and lose Shah tonight for the gain of...you?

you're letting scum live?

You keep seeming to have this problem of taking your knowledge of your role PM and suggesting it should be common knowledge to everyone.
You or Albert should die today in my opinion. I don't see you making much of a valid argument for why it should be Albert and not you.

[Thor665]

You would NOT consider a Shah lynch today?

No, I wouldn't.

because when i die, town pretty much loses.

You keep saying this or things like it - I don't understand the logic. Let's pretend for a moment that Shah is scum, and Albert is town - will lynching Albert pretty much lose us the game?

Not to mention he was the last PR claimed

What's this have to do with the price of tea in China?

Also, hiplop, why aren't you using your JK of me to explain why you're more likely town?

[Thor665]

@Muffin - why Shah? The AtE is somewhat swinging me on hiplop, but I would by far rather lynch Albert than Shah right now. What am I missing?

@hiplop - if I was a PR which you wouldn't know you were taking a gamble in declaring a block on me.

@Hellhound - if you had hiplop's role PM you'd have the info he has to confirm it. Since you don't ::bleh:: it's his standard 'case' thus far. Move on, there's nothing there.

[Thor665]

Actually, thinking about it, the tell dies flat due to presence of rolecop.

[Thor665]

@Hellhound - I'm confused, weren't you gauging up to hammer hiplop, now you're digging into Shah? What are your current thoughts?

Unvote: hiplop
Vote: Albert

[Thor665]

Just stop being terrible and making me doubt this move.

[Thor665]

@Hellhound - The case on Albert is PoE - *at least* one of those three is scum. If you think Torq was rubbish I fail to see why you're questioning the Albert case - what am I missing there?

@Muffin - the only "plan" needed is that if Albert flips scum than hiplop should have a set target declared - he has now done so. I'm fine with Shah investigating whomever she pleases and if Albert flips town I'm fine with hiplop jailing whomever.

[Thor665]

We get a conf-townie tomorrow no matter what; right? Because Jailkeep goes before mafia kill? so even if i die, hellhound is town.

is that correct?

If Albert is scum - yes.
If Albert is town - no.
Hellhound is fairly obvious town though, so...

[Thor665]

To clarify - if Albert flips scum you're jailing Scumhunter, not Hellhound.

[Thor665]

If ABR is scum he was going to be lynched today barring either a PR claim or providing actual amazing reads of game.
He certainly didn't try the reads angle.
All of you claimed at periods you were being run up - so that's a pretty neutral tell towards all of you. Which of Albert/hiplop are you saying is scum and why?

[Thor665]

Bleh - I was sold by lack of you ever presenting any catchup.
Also, you're calling everyone not on your wagon confirmed town? I see Hellhound no problem, but is there something deeper for Scumhunter?

[Thor665]

Albert, you are positive that hellhound is town? Can you tell me why? I really hope you see this before the flip...

After Albert flips, if he's town Doc look at all of Hellhound's posts concerning who to lynch today - then try to figure out why scum would do that. When you can't come up with an answer then call Hellhound obv. town.
I'd rather have Albert spend time explaining you.

@Muffin - that would be funny, but I rather doubt it unless he's just playfully cruel at heart.

[Thor665]

If you trust Albert than how about you trust my case that backs up what Albert says - derpy doo, yeah?

[Thor665]

Because my plan was to lynch either hiplop or Albert and I considered Albert more independently scummy.

[Thor665]

Also, as noted, the AtE from hiplop sold me - he felt strong town, still does.

[Thor665]

1. It's a game. I'm not acting like I have a handle - I'm playing the game.
2. The hiplop auto win only applied if hiplop was scum, and if I get a town read on him the conclusion is immaterial to my decision making process.

[Thor665]

3. Also, it wasn't an auto win.

[Thor665]

Oh Smurf son Im clear. How does that feel Thor? Smurf it.

It makes me happy I don't have to suspect you anymore, but sad that you look scummy
How does it feel being on the JKer yesterday (I keed, I keed)

Vote: Hellhound

I could buy Muffin as a bus, but he was agreeing and buddying with me so much yesterday I don't want it to be true.

[Thor665]

@Scumhunter - Double scum fake PR claim? I...dunno, don't think I buy it. That would be a lot of ball, balls on the Scum team. I mean, I'll agree ABR has balls upon his balls, but I'm not sure he'd risk that after a cop claim - plus he was working pretty hard on the hiplop wagon...though I did slam the Shah one...

Meh, we can discuss that if hiplop is alive tomorrow after confirming another town.

[Thor665]

So its Thor, Hellhound or Muffin Man.

Look at my play yesterday and tell me with a straight face it's me.

[Thor665]

@Scumhunter - awesome, you're confirmed town.

Now help town by doing that...oh, what is that thing...scumhunting? Yeah! Do some of that scumhunting stuff, I hear it helps

@hiplop - yes, so we're in a 50/50 today, thoughts?

[Thor665]

Torq iso - two heavy pushes on Awesoma.

Only other votes were one on me and one on DK.
Really like current vote.
Would consider hiplop lynch over Muffin tomorrow probably.

[Thor665]

Awesoma=Muffin.

[Thor665]

@Hellhound.

Scumhunter is confirmed town.
I am practically confirmed town.
Hiplop is claimed JKer and is...probably not scum.

That leaves you and Awesoma/Muffin, and I have a better town read on Awesomuffin. That's why you're scum.

Who do you think is scum?

[Thor665]

@Scumhunter - we're not JKing you tonight - no way, no how. That's a terrible plan. We JK someone else and force scum to confirm another town. I'd suggest a Muffin JK, quite frankly. But whichever of he/Hellhound are not lynched, that one is being jailed.

[Thor665]

@Hellhound - there was no Doc - that was a scum fakeclaim. You do continue to fling town tells from your pores which is messing with my soul though.

JKing me/JKing someone else ...either way results in 3 way lylo with a clear either way....

Remember earlier, when you announced how bad of a game you were playing?
You're confirmed town, huzzah.
I'd rather have confirmed town me or Muffin end up in lylo though - we're both full of ourselves and have confidence in our reads and are less likely to listen to...well, anyone but ourselves Waaaay better than doubting sel milquetoast town, yeah?

[Thor665]

Thor, never said anything about a doc O.o

I was happy with being jk'd last night, but it wouldn't play to hiplops scum plan to confirm me town. So he gets the

doc

out the way who can disprove him, fakes a pr claim and then today starts the process to lynch me, again.

So...what did you mean about the Doc?

Ok. Ive said it before and ill say it again, I'm a VT. I thought this game was about logic, infact it seems to be most of you guys blindly buddying eachother.

Second time you've accused us of this.
In fact both times you've been run up you made appeals to emotion about logic all while not actually presenting any particular logic of your own. What am I missing in this strategy?

[Thor665]

Ok it wasnt meant to appeal to emotion, only logic. Do i need to present my own logic to say that i dont think you're using any actual logic by buddying..?

Well...yes.
If you're upset that not enough logic is being used in thread, and you express this in a way that uses no logic at all, I'm not really sure what you're doing to advance your claim that we should all be logic mongers.

To you cop situation - what do you think about hiplop claiming prior to the cop? The way you wrote it up suggests otherwise, but he actually claimed first and also claimed a role that forces scum to generate innocent results. It's...not an optimal scum claim. Now, I'll agree he looks suspect, but I see no reason why you and Muffin shouldn't be considered - and that's a logical deduction, yeah? Now, I need to consider which of the two of you look more scum, so I look at how the now dead scum was working hard to get Awesomuffin lynched - again, a logical deduction of why he is less likely scum scum. I have no reason to consider you less likely scum - hence why I'm voting you. All logical. All regardless of buddying.

How am I not using logic?
Why are you not a suspect to be lynched?
I look forward to your use of logic in the hiplop case.

@zMuffin - you have issues with me calling myself almost confirmed? Look at yesterday when I shot down Albert's move to lynch the cop, claimed the cop was not being lynched that day, and then steamrolled Albert when I could have kept on hiplop and then explain to me why I'm scum. Go ahead, I'll be here ready to listen when you work it out. I'm basically confirmed town - and am way more confirmed than anyone but Scumhunter.

[Thor665]

@Hellhound - The case on Albert is PoE - *at least* one of those three is scum. If you think Torq was rubbish I fail to see why you're questioning the Albert case - what am I missing there?

Torqez was rubbish but he wasnt scum.. He was just crappy town. hiplop/shah and to a much lesser extent scumhunter seem much more actual scummy than albert.

For consideration on the Hellhound case.

[Thor665]

He explained why you're scum though and totally sold me. Why wouldn't you want to read it?

[Thor665]

Also scum already knows all the PRs have claimed, that's why Albert played the gambit he did. I could easily see it as setup for hiplop buddy - but what makes you so sure on Hellhound? All I've got there is AtE gut feels for him to be town.

[Thor665]

@Muffin - If you seriously think that was a bus you are a bigger fool than I am, and I'm a big fool. Feel free to weigh in on actual issues any century now.

@Scum - was Hellhound even around during most of the dust up yesterday? I don't recall much input from him at all.

[Thor665]

DK:

Thor665, Shah

, Hellhound1, Muffin (L-1!)

Thor665:

Scumhunter

Hellhound1

: hiplop

Albert:

[/color

Not Voting:

Albert

,

Foilist, cloudocean

Initial DK(cloud) run. is above, lynch is below. Names changed to reflect current slot holders as we probably remember them.

DeityKabuto:

Hellhound1,

Albert

,

Thor665

, hiplop ,

Scumhunter

(Lynch!)

hiplop:

foilist13

Scumhunter:

Muffin

Thor665:

DeityKabuto

Not Voting:

Shahrizai

Next is Albert lynch;

Albert B. Rampage:

Shahrizai

, hiplop,

Thor665

, zMuffinMan (Lynch!)

hiplop:

Albert B. Rampage

,

Scumhunter,

Shahrizai:

hellhound1

Here's the run at Scumhunter, now confirmed town.

Scumhunter:

Thor665,

hiplop,

DeityKabuto

, Awesoma (L-1!)

DeityKabuto:

Hellhound1

Awesoma:

Torqez

Not Voting:

foilist13, Shahri, Scumhunter

Run on me was weak, and I'm too lazy to put it in color and also want to leave the strikethroughs this time.

Thor665:

foilist13, hiplop,

DeityKabuto

, Torqez (L-2)

Scumhunter:

Thor665,

hiplop

, Awesoma

DeityKabuto:

Hellhound1, Scumhunter

Awesoma:

Torqez

Interesting hiplop run I'd forgotten about.

hiplop:

Thor665, Scumhunter, DeityKabuto (L-2)

Scumhunter:

Muffin, hiplop

DeityKabuto:

Hellhound1,

Albert

Awesoma:

foilist13

Not Voting:

Shahrizai

Am gonna post now so I can study it in technicolor and offer some thoughts.