[Mini 1205] Tough Guy Mafia - Game Over!

[YankCane151]

/confirm

vote: Kid Know Nothing

[YankCane151]

1. I like town better because it's like solving a mystery, as scum you generally already know the answer.
2. Questioning, observing reactions, etc.

Regarding the Miller claim, I agree that it's null. It saves a cop investigation but past that it means nothing and we should judge HH accordingly.

[YankCane151]

The same purpose any AtE serves.

[YankCane151]

I'm null on Simo. I wanted to answer the question because it seemed straightforward enough. There's nothing wrong with what simo said, and it's the whole law of averages thing. Doesn't change my view of him.

[YankCane151]

EBWOP: And if you did agree with ConfidAnon's point then your post 37 is strange because you don't say you agree with the point despite adding to it which would be IIoA.

I don't agree that simo is scummy because of that one post, so yes, I disagree.

---

Caution isn't always a scumtell, by the way.

[YankCane151]

I don't agree that simo is scummy because of that one post, so yes, I disagree.

In that case:

If you didn't agree with it, then your post 37 seems out of place.

...and my suspicion of you has strengthened. You didn't agree with ConfidAnon's suspicion of el simo, but still made a post adding on to or explaining ConfidAnon's point. That makes no sense if you're town.

Strengthened? Why don't you just vote me already instead of staying on a random vote? Certainly a good way to seem non-comittal regarding me, if you strengthened your leeriness of me from an FoS it should probably just be a vote.

I don't have to agree with him to explain it. That's like (incoming sports reference) someone who doesn't know about sports saying "What makes the Yankees the winningest team in baseball?" and a Sox fan going "Well, they have 27 titles". The two aren't related in my eyes nor were they when I said it.

[YankCane151]

And Wicked, why did you not call out Dizzy for not random voting?

[YankCane151]

Getting scumvibes from Yonzy, YankCane, and el simo. Still ok with my Lobster vote at the moment.

You too? You'd rather keep a random vote then vote who you have scumvibes on?

[YankCane151]

Getting scumvibes from Yonzy, YankCane, and el simo. Still ok with my Lobster vote at the moment.

You too? You'd rather keep a random vote then vote who you have scumvibes on?

Lobster vote is not random

You didn't explain it at all, so I assumed such. Care to?

[YankCane151]

Strengthened? Why don't you just vote me already instead of staying on a random vote? Certainly a good way to seem non-comittal regarding me, if you strengthened your leeriness of me from an FoS it should probably just be a vote.

Read the thread again, please. My vote on ConfidAnon is serious. Not random. And even if you had acted more suspicious than him I wouldn't unvote until ConfidAnon had responded to the vote and defended himself.

I don't have to agree with him to explain it. That's like (incoming sports reference) someone who doesn't know about sports saying "What makes the Yankees the winningest team in baseball?" and a Sox fan going "Well, they have 27 titles". The two aren't related in my eyes nor were they when I said it.

Why did you make post 37? You don't agree that there was AtE in el simo's post. Right? So why explain his motivation for adding AtE to his answer, as scum, when you didn't even believe there was any AtE? It still doesn't make sense to me.

And Wicked, why did you not call out Dizzy for not random voting?

...because, IIRC, Dizzy hasn't even made a post outside of the confirmation stage.

More later.

My mistake on the random vote thing. Yes, it had a hint of smartassery as Lobster implied, but it was mostly to explain it and move the game along. The fact that Dizzy hasn't posted is irrelevant. Dizzy did confirm, yet hasn't made a random vote. You didn't answer the question there.

[YankCane151]

I don't see anything particularly either way from Tarson.

[YankCane151]

If we're going off gut reads, I can attest that something seems off about Wicked. I get kind of the vibe that he's trying to hard to look town or something, but I can't put real logic behind it at the moment.

[YankCane151]

If we're going off gut reads, I can attest that something seems off about Wicked. I get kind of the vibe that he's trying to hard to look town or something, but I can't put real logic behind it at the moment.

HH isn't off the hook yet until he turns that claim into something usable - but this is more voteworthy.

UNVOTE: Horrifying Hero
VOTE: YankCane151

You didn't mention any suspicion of Wicked until HH came clean about the fakeness of his claim, and said that Wicked was scum. While there aren't any votes on the table yet, this sounds like setting yourself up to blatantly bandwagon off of HH's case.

I also notice that besides your random vote at the beginning of the game for Kid Know Nothing, you have not made a serious vote as of yet. It also happens that Horrifying Hero called for the wagon on Kid Know Nothing to disband. Your lack of votes, plus your newfound sheeping on Horrifying Hero, reads like confused scum not finding a good place for a vote, so your just going for whatever an experienced player says. After all, he had a GAMBIT. He must know what's going on! (sarcasm) By letting Horrifying Hero direct your vote, you could be trying to evade HH's eye by staying out of his way.

First, I was questioning Wicked before HH did his fakeclaim reveal. HH is not directing my vote and my gutread is just that, a gutread.

[YankCane151]

Hez, You were after Anon until he finally agreed with you on something. I believe you're letting him direct your vote. Is it possible bussing during RVS then teaming later? Sure, but I can't say that for certain yet. #118 is trying to look town but really says nothing "I did an Iso, see! So what they have 3 posts?" (There's no need to brag about doing an ISO, it just screams of looking for towncred), when you were/are voting me for such. #90 Contradicts #50 about unfair scumtells. You wrap up that quote on #50 with "But it's all cool, no worries" (did the same in #67). This gives me a vibe of not trying to offend anyone. Do you see the contradictions with your case on me and your own play? (Keep in mind I think your whole argument is based one 1-2 posts while I can name multiple where you're doing the same thing as me)

Unvote, Vote:Hezlucky

[YankCane151]

Yank - questioning =/= expressing suspicion.

Besides, your questions were only in response to his questions.

Questioning is how I scumhunt (see that post in the RQS), so to me it is. I don't find the need to go all out and say "So and so is scum!" right away because 1 I assume it's assumed I suspect them by questioning them and 2 because who cares if someone says I'm not suspecting someone? The fact that the questions were after his questions does not make them magically not valid, unless we want to play that way in which we should just throw out half of the posts of the last 3 pages or so.

[YankCane151]

Wicked, I see alot of you asking people for their suspicions but I really haven't seen anyone ask you it (I get the general gist, me and Tarson), but do you have an official list?

[YankCane151]

Tarson: Do you think Hez is trying to appear pro-town, or alternatively, trying not to offend anyone (like he accused me of on that miller reaction you referred to)?

[YankCane151]

If there's a chance Hez is contradicting himself by doing such(trying to appear town), then how are the points against my reaction valid? (Or rather, any more valid than the case against Hez, which you didn't mention in #142)

[YankCane151]

There is at least one scum in: Yonzy, avasthehearties, tarsonisocelot

Why? Go look at the activity overview. All three are lurking their butts off, preventing this game from progressing. Since it's stalling the game, it's not at all a pro-town move.

I'm not by any means suggesting to go on a lurker hunt. I want Yank lynched. I've already outlined why

[his recent OMGUS tirade against me does him no favours either],

but those three names are worth storing in the back of your head for later.

Way to answer it. I'll chalk up another point in 'Trying to look protown' with this post and "Trying to appear omniscent" as well.

Not to mention you really haven't outlined why. You thought my first post was scummy (I pointed out the contradiction, which again, you didn't answer. ), unvoted me, then went back when someone else built a case, based on something different. Hmm. I wouldn't call it an "OMGUS tirade" without explaining why you feel it's such. You're not going to get people believing you by saying one thing but not expanding more. That goes back to that "trying to appear town" thing which, by the way, you're voting

me

for. avasthehearties just posted a case and isn't lurking anymore, so there's another fallacy. Tarson posted before the time between your latest two posts and the one before that, though she does need more info. Yonzy I will agree is lurking. There's no need so say "I'm not by any means suggesting to go on a lurker hunt", that's just covering your own backside. Here, let me go back through this one quote and strikethrough everything that is filler/trying to appear town.

There is at least one scum in: Yonzy, avasthehearties, tarsonisocelot

Why? Go look at the activity overview. All three are lurking

their butts off, preventing this game from progressing. Since it's stalling the game, it's not at all a pro-town move.

I'm not by any means suggesting to go on a lurker hunt.

I want Yank lynched.

I've already outlined why

[his recent OMGUS tirade against me does him no favours either],

but those three names are worth storing in the back of your head for later.

So basically you turned a post where all you had to say was I want these 4 people lynched and threw in a bunch of attempting to look town in there. Good Job.

Really not helping your case here.

[YankCane151]

Hez, You were after Anon until he finally agreed with you on something. I believe you're letting him direct your vote. Is it possible bussing during RVS then teaming later? Sure, but I can't say that for certain yet. #118 is trying to look town but really says nothing "I did an Iso, see! So what they have 3 posts?" (There's no need to brag about doing an ISO, it just screams of looking for towncred), when you were/are voting me for such. #90 Contradicts #50 about unfair scumtells. You wrap up that quote on #50 with "But it's all cool, no worries" (did the same in #67). This gives me a vibe of not trying to offend anyone. Do you see the contradictions with your case on me and your own play? (Keep in mind I think your whole argument is based one 1-2 posts while I can name multiple where you're doing the same thing as me)

Unvote, Vote:Hezlucky

Here's that post for you(and for Rainbowdash), by the way, in case you forgot it. No need to thank me. Now Address it.

[YankCane151]

Can you elaborate/explain this please? Thanks.

Yes I can.

Most people in this game have had a little bit of fun and randomness to your answers, but

YankCane seems to think he'll get town cred

² by answering them completely seriously. There's no attempt to joke around by him,

meaning he likely sees it as a risk.

¹ Furthermore,

his sentence "Regarding the Miller claim" adds nothing substantial to this game,

³ while making it seem like he is doing some early analysis.


Early FOS's: Yank, ConfidAnon

Ok, I can only find 3 posts where you may possibly have "outlined my case" against me. (Oooh, and I get to strikethrough more filler.)

ISO # 5(Cropped): This is his main argument, basically wanting to lynch me (Not just a vote, as he just showed in ISO #16, he wants to

lynch

me.) for not being fun and random, assuming I'm being cautious.

Let's look first at the tinge of doubt/fallacies in this quote. In Superscript 1, we see him only saying it is "likely" that I see it as a risk, yet just two words before, says the word "meaning", implying that he already knows the answer. How can you only be slightly sure(implied by likely) while also telling us all the definition of my actions for me?(using the word meaning, again implying omniscent knowledge of me. AKA: Making something out of nothing.)

Sup 2 is more Omniscentness and again assuming my thoughts here.

Sup 3 is also off. He claims that my use of the phrase "regarding the miller claim" adds nothing substantial to the game, yet he is voting me for that reason. wat. So it's really not substantial, except were he to lynch me, that'd be pretty important to the game, no? It seems he's selective in claiming what's substantial. Also, while that's his opinion, he frames it in a way to sell to the others that he is right and I am DEFINITELY doing this to look town.

EBWOP:

Yes I can. Most people in this game have had a little bit of fun and randomness to your answers, but YankCane seems to think he'll get town cred by answering them completely seriously. There's no attempt to joke around by him, meaning he likely sees it as a risk. Furthermore, his sentence "Regarding the Miller claim" adds nothing substantial to this game, while making it seem like he is doing some early analysis.

Can this point be used against avasthearties who also answered my questions seriously?

No, avasthehearties answered my "WHO WANTS PIE?" question, which satisfies the quota of randomness I'm looking for. He's also not trying at all to be useful.

YankCane is just cautious,

period.

Ok, we've got another tidbit. (He really is laying this out all nice for us, isn't he!

Now you suspect avasthehearties for lurking, but you originally pushed avast into the safer category because he wasn't tyring to be useful. Which one is it?

ISO #14 is the last piece of evidence before #16 we see.

Real scumhunting plus you are going on my original gutread. This is MORE voteworthy.

Unvote, Vote: YankCane

Oh okay. I'm a gutread now. I'm also a lynch target for proof. Makes sense.

I'm going to go back to that #12 and eliminate the filler to show you the contradiction in the case, again.

Y'know what. I really like the HH bandwagon- even better than my tarsonisocelot vote.

Unvote. Vote: Horrifying Hero

My reasons:
-They've stated two suspicions but haven't explained either of them and haven't made any effort to convince others to follow their vote for me.
-They haven't posted a lot recently. This is especially strange considering they were pretty active the day the game started.
-They are a miller. That, itself, isn't suspicious, but a miller's allignment can't be determined via cop investigation. So we determine their allignment based solely on their play during the day. Horrifying Hero, however, is giving us hardly anything to work with. They're playing with their cards too close to their chest. That isn't the way that a miller should be playing this game.


I still suspect tarsonisocelot, but I'm not explaining why until 2-3 more players post in the thread.

So I read the third point and it really hit home.

I did my own ISO of Horrible Hero, who has given us very little in terms of, well, anything. However, the first thing I noticed was that the Mastin hydra is V/LA from July 16 to 22. It's not July 22 yet. How much of this is attributable to that fact? (I am unfamiliar with either hydra head)

¹

Doing a quick meta on lateralus' playstyle yields:
- A quick lookover Newbie 1245 shows that he is more than capable of giving us a decent analysis. Alignment: Town
- Hell, he does it as mafia too. Look at Newbie 970.
(lateralus seems to replace both in and out of a lot of games, so I tried to find some where he was playing throughout. Care to comment on this, lateralus? One somewhat recurring feature is that you give your analysis upon replacing in and then become useless the rest of the game. When, exactly, do you plan on being useful here?)

In conclusion, his meta is frustrating me. I've never seen someone as flaky as him, and I would like to hear what his other head says as well.

EBWOP: He just posted two things. Okay, whatever. I'm still posting the above anyway.

Oooh, Another! Sup 1 on this one, Now he's suddenly concerned about the Miller! What, while also including filler?

Hez doesn't have a legit case against me until he can defend himself for the same thing he's accusing me of.

[YankCane151]

Ok class, before I get into the contradictions (again!), let me basically review Hez's case here.

A: Trying to hard to be useful. (Or as he put it into ISO #3, Trying to look pro-town.) I'll mark these contradictions with ₁ Subscripts.

B: I'm omgus-ing him by attacking. Note that he doesn't try to acknowledge the truth in my points (just dismisses them in hopes they'll go away) and continues to attack me for the same thing. I'll mark these with ¹ Superscripts.

C: I am twisting his words/Making something out of nothing. I'll mark these with

Italics.

Yank wants some answers, so I will give answers.

He claims that I haven't given my case (I have given my primary reason already), as well as accuses me of not answering questions.

Easiest solution? ISO Yank in his entirity.

--------------------ONE-------------------

1. I like town better because it's like solving a mystery, as scum you generally already know the answer.
2. Questioning, observing reactions, etc.

Regarding the Miller claim, I agree that it's null. It saves a cop investigation but past that it means nothing and we should judge HH accordingly.

Still why I'm voting Yank.

Trying way too hard to be useful. (Hell, right now, he's trying to scrape together any case he can on me -- reaching would be an appropriate word here -- just to get me off his back. But I don't do that)

¹

Basically, filler and fluff in a time where you're allowed to fool around (RVS) is a scumtell. Later on in the game, one might just be lazy. But at that junction, nobody expects you to be doing anything, so the only motivation is trying to look town.


----------------------TWO----------------------

Look at Yank's behaviour over the course of the game.

He cannot actually respond to any of my points, and is freaking out about that, so he decides that the best defense is a good offense.

He is trying to shift the focus from himself to me, simply
because I'm attacking him, in hopes that I will go away.^{2 HUGE}

Furthermore, Yank makes it look like he is scumhunting -- but where has he actually committed to anyone?^{3 Lol votehopping}

Besdies me, BECAUSE I'M VOTING FOR HIM. Yank's behaviour is highly self-preservationist. Make yourself look good. Pretend you are scumhunting.

But don't actually commit to anyone being scum unless they attack you. This is not scumhunting.

Scumhunting means you have opinions on people OTHER than those who are voting for you.

---------------THREE-------------------

Okay, let's get to the posts he makes in response to me:

Hez, You were after Anon until he finally agreed with you on something. I believe you're letting him direct your vote. Is it possible bussing during RVS then teaming later? Sure, but I can't say that for certain yet. #118 is trying to look town but really says nothing "I did an Iso, see! So what they have 3 posts?" (There's no need to brag about doing an ISO, it just screams of looking for towncred), when you were/are voting me for such. #90 Contradicts #50 about unfair scumtells. You wrap up that quote on #50 with "But it's all cool, no worries" (did the same in #67). This gives me a vibe of not trying to offend anyone. Do you see the contradictions with your case on me and your own play? (Keep in mind I think your whole argument is based one 1-2 posts while I can name multiple where you're doing the same thing as me)

Unvote, Vote:Hezlucky

He's directing my vote? I had two suspects, I liked one's response and now I'm testing the other (that's you, by the way). I don't like your response at all.

#118 - Yes, I did an ISO. Yes, I found very little. Would you like me not to post? I was actually contemplating voting the mastin/lateralus hydra before the set of ISOs I did, and I stumbled upon a relevant point (one I was hoping I could have gotten a response to -- but I don't seem to have. lateralus: why do you replace in and out of so many games?)

But your number system is annoying, because now I actually have to look at my own ISO:

Okay, looked at it. Your points are pathetic. You've basically decided ahead of time that I'm scum, and tried to fit the evidence to match your case.

[He's done the exact same except with less posts] I don't know how familiar you are with the game of Mafia, but you can make a reasonable case on ANYONE that isn't obvtown in any game at any time. Games aren't won by cases. They are won by looking for intentions. _{I believe when you were writing the above post, you were specifically looking for evidence} [So wait, now I shouldn't look for evidence?] and things you could accuse me of doing rather than objectively evaluating my posts.

This makes you either vengeful town, or scum that needs to hang.

Seeing as I've already got a scumread on you, I know which one I'll be going with.⁴


BUT I do understand the gist of your argument: You claim that I am voting you for a few small points, that also apply to me. If you think my posts are filler, consider the following similarities between me and you:


HOW YANKCANE AND I ARE SIMILAR (aka. why yankcane thinks I'm voting for him because of things I have also done)

- we both ask questions to others to help us scumhunt and determine alignment
- YankCane thinks we both "are trying to appear pro-town and not offend anyone" [I don't think I'm doing so, because I'm not. I'm comparing the fallacy of your argument by the fact that you yourself are doing such.]

HOW YANKCANE AND I ARE DIFFERENT (aka. the truth about the second point)

- First of all, I could care less whether or not I offend anyone. I've called several people out this game already, a point which you seem to have conveniently forgotten. The second part of your argument is now moot.₂ [Easy enough cop-out here.]

-

More importantly, the argument that "he's so town he's scum" is a ridiculous one.

[Never said this] You can make that argument about anyone who hasn't committed any sort of scumtell.

Speaking of fallacious arguments, that's one right there.

The reason I am voting for you is, I'll repeat, YOU WERE TRYING TO LOOK PROTOWN DURING A PORTION OF THE GAME WHERE NOBODY EXPECTS YOU TO BE USEFUL.

You were posting fluff (ie. things that look like they are game-related, but really say nothing)

during a moment where a lot of randomness was happening.

-

Oh, and your response to me. You have no case whatsoever, yet you insist that you do and cry that "OMG HEZ IS NOT RESPONDING TO MY POSTS HE MUST BE SCUM".

⁶ [More like your case of me]

Basically, I wouldn't be holding any of this against you except for the fact that you are voting for me.

[LOL Who is OMGUS-ing now?]

If you said "Hey Hez, you've done the exact same things, let me list them ALL out for you" and you weren't voting for me, I would think you were trying to prove a point.

[Contradiction, obviously YOU are the one who only cares when someone is voting for them.]

Yet since you are voting for me, you are instead trying to manipulate the evidence in order to form a case on me.

[No.]

You aren't trying to make a point anymore, you are trying to form a counterwagon.

[Counter wagon to what? Your vote and CA's?] Why should I let your buddies hide while you do the talking?

It's very obvious from the way your posts are constructed that you decided AHEAD of time that you wanted to attack someone that was attacking you, and since a) I provided less evidence in my votepost and (b) I had no one suspecting me, meaning that your vote would look more like actual scumhunting, you chose me.

³ [A)there was enough evidence to begin questioning you and B) The points are valid whether there's 1 or 9 people questioning you.]

- Finally, if you are town (OH MY GOD WHAT? ... yeah, I'm wrong sometimes. Bite me.), Read Open 302. Not the whole thing. Focus on Me and MagnaofIllusion. Note that our argument over-took the entire game in the later days, and eventually lead to a lynch on a townie and a near guaranteed scum victory. If you continue to attack me, please argue better, because I am quite vengeful and WILL get you lynched if I don't believe you are legitimate. At the moment, I don't think your arguments are (your providing evidence to fit your hypothesis, and not the other way around - I didn't think you were scum until I READ that post of yours. You've essentially made up a case on me and looked for evidence to fit your facts. This is a mafia tactic, not a town one. Vote stands.)

[Whole paragraph=Empty Threat and an ATE]


I want to hear from OTHERS on this. I don't really care for having a back and forth dialogue with scum. Especially if it allows Yank's buddies to hide among the carnage.[Double this, but don't back out of an attack against you because you look more guilty.]

Each post you make sends you closer to the noose. If you want to build up a legitimate case to throw at me, I'll be all for defending it. But if you're going to accuse me of the same things you're doing (building cases out of nothing, accusing of looking pro-town, etc. Remember your whole reason is based off of 1 post while mine is building post by post), then you should just lynch yourself.

Your other post calls out me calling out semantics, and you call me out for the same thing (Especially regarding the first post, you hit me for using the phrase "Regarding the Miller claim.") Get your own case, stop trying to scumhunt yourself and put it on someone else.

[YankCane151]

Couple of HTML errors in there ^ Also forgot to mention that the [] brackets include my commentary.

[YankCane151]

Questioning is how I scumhunt (see that post in the RQS), so to me it is. I don't find the need to go all out and say "So and so is scum!" right away because 1 I assume it's assumed I suspect them by questioning them and 2 because who cares if someone says I'm not suspecting someone? The fact that the questions were after his questions does not make them magically not valid, unless we want to play that way in which we should just throw out half of the posts of the last 3 pages or so.

None of this changes the validity of my original point.

I know the following quote is older, but I just figured out why I didn't like it when I saw Hez quoting it again:

Hez, You were after Anon until he finally agreed with you on something. I believe you're letting him direct your vote.

This really makes no sense at all. Why would you let your suspect direct your vote? Also, if we agreed, then I'm not really directing his vote, am I? After all, we had to both have been thinking the same thing to agree.

I notice that this came after I accused you of letting Horrifying Hero direct your vote . . . honestly, I think that's why you made this

incoherent statement.

You saw Hez vote for you, and you felt threatened, so you tried to dig up a case on him. The "case" that you've made is pretty incoherent - a lot of your points seem to revolve around him "trying to seem Town."

To me at least, those seem to be part of his general mannerisms and personality, rather than a concentrated effort to create a certain persona. (I know that it could be argued that he's doing so extraordinarily well because he has me deceived, but it's very difficult to not sound fake while attempting that, and I don't read any fakeness from his attitude at all).

Thing is though - you've put a lot of effort into this

really bad case.

You've made me a little less certain with my vote - I'm not sure if this is a Town misguided effort, or scum just trying to debunk my point about you and Horrifying Hero. I need to think about this one.

On the other hand, HezLucky's response post here gives me massive Town points. Getting hung up on the fact that bad case =/= scummy is a major Town tell, and the tunnel vision feel of the post also reflects well on his intentions.

1) Right, your original point was that I was letting HH direct my vote. Point to me where HH Is voting Hez, again? Point to me where I voted Wicked again?

Chainsaw defense time folks!

2) First, that was a snarky reaction to the fallacy behind HH directing my vote. It's just as easy for me to say the same thing about you and Hez. Of course in this case, it is absolutely true, (he's even said such), Hez DID agree with his suspect and then voted me. There's no need to defend him for something

he didn't even do.

Oh, unless you're talking about agreeing on votes, or reads, which, hmm, what did I do as to HH's read on Wicked? Agreed that my gut was also off regarding Wicked.

Which is it, Anon?

Am I guilty for agreeing with someone else (Like Hez did with you but you find that pro-town), or am I guilty for letting HH direct my vote (which Hez did with you but you find that pro-town). If you're being special because he's agreeing with you, then that's asinine because HH and I aren't even talking about you or Hez, we're talking about Hez (Unless the team is Anon-Wicked-Hez? )

Basically, that first line regarding my post is not a good point in any way because, gasp, it's a contradiction. (Scumtell for the folks at home who aren't following)

3) Jeez, this seems familiar, someone taking my words and stretching them then accusing me of stretching my own words. Who does that remind us of? (Hint: HezLucky). Either you're secretly the same person or you're buddies. Let's strikethrough all the false assumptions again! Like Hez, you are also calling this a horrid case(without addressing it or even seemingly reading it.) and that no one should consider it. Always a good thing to convince people that you're right and I'm wrong.

4)I'm scum trying to debunk you about HH? What in the world does that have to do with my case again Hez? Again, you're not reading my Case. It has nothing to do with HH at all, it has to do with Hez's contradictory vote, bandwagon, bussing of you (that's now relevant with this post), etc.

5)Why does his response give you major town points? Did you not read the contradictions I again pointed out the post after his? Read it again if so. Be more open than tunnelheaded. Hez isn't confirmed town so stop treating him like such. I'm not confirmed scum so stop treating ME as such. Which is what you're doing. Hez's whole case seems to me like opportunistic scum trying to pounce on a newer player's mistake, but at least, if you're town, be more open minded and don't team up with Hez for the heck of it. Really, tell me WHY Hez is town, not just that he "is."

[YankCane151]

At the end of point 2), that should say agreeing about Wicked, not agreeing about Hez. Really need to proofread more. >_>

[YankCane151]

Hez, why didn't you attack Anon's ISO #2/#35 when he also weighed in on the Miller claim?

Rainbowdash: No way am I stopping until Hez answers my questions and stops contradicting himself.

[YankCane151]

Son of a fucking bitch:


Okay

FOS:HezLucky

I skimmed through the thread, I think I might open up on a case of him being scum.

You're free to try. Someone already did, and failed miserably.

If your case is good I might not even attack you over it :O

LOLOLOL Dodge the case some more, scum.

Come on guys, seriously? Too obvious here.

[YankCane151]

To recap, that's the third time Hez has dodged my case, this time I think he just gave up and is posting less to avoid me calling him out on filler. Fair enough. So now, that validates my points even more, because now he is accepting defeat by not providing a competent defense. Guilty scum maybe? Who knows. What I do know is that No case from Hez can be taken seriously until he answers mine.

Did I mention the possible Anon team? Yes I think I did. Good thing Hez avoiding commenting on that, that would've been a double chainsaw defense!

Come on Hez, you're obviously experienced, don't get defeated so easily. Surely you have more posts where you call my case "horrible"! Surely you can contradict yourself some more! Don't give up this easy! I'm rooting for you to post more, you can do it! (So I can debunk everything else you say too, Unless you magically start being town, which at this point I'm not seeing any town motivation here from anything regarding my case in the last 3-5 posts. Hum de hum.

Is it because it's me? Maybe Vifam's case will help you see what I'm saying. That's okay. There's no need to hate on me, I won't bite, after all I'm 'sure scum' and only 'trying to look town'. Surely no threat to you! If you were town that is.

So what's it going to be Hez? Are you going to put up a fight, like you said you would just a post earlier, or are you going to wave the white flag and let me save some words?

[YankCane151]

Couple of wiki links in case anyone wants some more confirmation:

http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?tit ... the_Person Hez is doing this, Anon is doing this.

http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?tit ... o_Majority Both doing this to an extent by answering for everyone else.

http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?tit ... to_Emotion Hez did this by saying he'd hunt me down and get me lynched if I Kept talking (trying to keep me quiet. ), Anon did this to an extent by being wish washy in his post regarding me but also saying "Hey, I think a little better of you." Where is Hez now? Hiding from my argument, not fighting me.

http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?tit ... _Causation Both definitely doing this regarding my actions, as I said, assuming what I'm doing without me saying it, Assuming I'm trying to act pro-town by providing analysis with the miller thing, etc.

http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=ORLYScum Hez definitely using this.

http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Red_Herring Mark this down for Hez's argument too. And Anon's to an extent.

Ok, that's settled.

Hez, since you're not going to answer my case, at least, answer this(which should have nothing to do with who's asking it, by the way. , Same with you Anon, you already said you'd ignore any post calling you scum, okay, fair enough.) What do you two think of KKN, who has a wagon on him right now? Go ahead and answer, because I find it fishy that you two are sitting on a flimsy case and haven't even touched that bandwagon.

[YankCane151]

To recap, that's the third time Hez has dodged my case, this time I think he just gave up and is posting less to avoid me calling him out on filler. Fair enough. So now, that validates my points even more, because now he is accepting defeat by not providing a competent defense. Guilty scum maybe? Who knows. What I do know is that No case from Hez can be taken seriously until he answers mine.

Did I mention the possible Anon team? Yes I think I did. Good thing Hez avoiding commenting on that, that would've been a double chainsaw defense!

Come on Hez, you're obviously experienced, don't get defeated so easily. Surely you have more posts where you call my case "horrible"! Surely you can contradict yourself some more! Don't give up this easy! I'm rooting for you to post more, you can do it! (So I can debunk everything else you say too, Unless you magically start being town, which at this point I'm not seeing any town motivation here from anything regarding my case in the last 3-5 posts. Hum de hum.

Is it because it's me? Maybe Vifam's case will help you see what I'm saying. That's okay. There's no need to hate on me, I won't bite, after all I'm 'sure scum' and only 'trying to look town'. Surely no threat to you! If you were town that is.

So what's it going to be Hez? Are you going to put up a fight, like you said you would just a post earlier, or are you going to wave the white flag and let me save some words?

You're funny. No, you don't have a case against me. Nobody in this game thinks you do besides yourself.

[1]

I don't think you can possibly be this delusional (because it's _quite_ delusional), so I am convinced you are scum.

[2]

You're hoping maybe I'll go away if you ask me to respond to paragraphs and paragraphs upon walls, but I will not. I am going to find your buddies, and it will be awesome.

[3]

PS. [Protip: Also, don't take this personally - but your method of quoting and then italicizing or brackets or whatever that you do is painfully hard to read. If I'm not even willing to read half of it, what makes you think those in the rest of this game will?]

The worst part is your post against ConfidAnon is exactly the same stuff you are trying to pull against me. Your method of "defending yourself" seems to be attack whoever attacks you, but your over-the-top-delusional attitude screams fake.

[4]

Oh good, more. Really, this whole strikethrough the fallacies thing you're making me do is going to get tiring. But here we go! [I'll try to be more efficient and presenting my words from now on, I'll keep it to strikethroughs and leave the rest on my own text]

[1] Appeal to the Majority, again appearing omniscent, again appearing to be in the town's best interest, again trying to dismiss my case without actually doing anything.

[2] Again a fallacy. I'm not delusional, so I must be scum! http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=False_Dilemma Aw, what's that, dismissing my case without answering it, again? Is that #4 or #5? Help me out, I've lost count.

[3] Again speaking for me. (Correlation implies causation for those keeping score at home) Oh okay, Appeal to Emotion/Majority! Our great savior Hez will find my buddies! Therefore his case must be right!

[4] One, I'm not even defending myself even more. Against what, exactly? You're no threat to me because quite frankly, you're oppscum trying to push my lynch on something stupid, you're voting wishy washy, you're buddying Anon, You're not defending yourself,

YOU ARE THE ONE WHO IS DEFENDING YOURSELF BY ATTACKING ME.

Except these attacks aren't actual scumhunting, it's just petty insults. Fair enough. Oooh here's the mutual chainsaw defense! You obviously didn't read my post against Anon and just saw I was attacking him and went ballistic. Why do you think Anon is pro-town? Why can't you answer any questions?

Like I said, you just keeping digging that hole of yours. You keep flying by my questions and insulting me for no good reason. You assume you have some master case against me that EVERYONE Should know already, and that isn't the case. You are telling everyone that my case is BS while not actually debunking it!

Before you accuse me of not answering questions and contradicting yourself some more, realize you have no case against me at all. But please, enlighten us all and find my buddies! I'm "sure scum!" No argument can save me! No real points can be used against you! You are Hez, the world's best mafia player and everyone should listen to you!

He needs to hang, period, folks.

[YankCane151]

You are so. scummy. Lets do this one by one.

Couple of wiki links in case anyone wants some more confirmation:

http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?tit ... the_Person Hez is doing this, Anon is doing this.

Yank is DEFINITELY doing this[1]

http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?tit ... o_Majority Both doing this to an extent by answering for everyone else.

You fail on so many levels.[2]

http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?tit ... to_Emotion Hez did this by saying he'd hunt me down and get me lynched if I Kept talking (trying to keep me quiet. ), Anon did this to an extent by being wish washy in his post regarding me but also saying "Hey, I think a little better of you." Where is Hez now? Hiding from my argument, not fighting me.

Fine. I'm going to make you cry. You picked the wrong town member to post garbage against.[3]

http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?tit ... _Causation Both definitely doing this regarding my actions, as I said, assuming what I'm doing without me saying it, Assuming I'm trying to act pro-town by providing analysis with the miller thing, etc.

No, we aren't doing any of those. We WOULD be, if you were town. Here, there IS causation. Because you are dirty, disgusting scum. [4]

http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=ORLYScum Hez definitely using this.

Where? I don't see where I have been using this, but it's a nice little additional link for you to put to make it seem like you're doing work. Actually, you are. You are trying desperately to be too big a thorn in my side for me to want to continue. It's not working.[5]

http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Red_Herring Mark this down for Hez's argument too. And Anon's to an extent.

You can't even get your links correct. That's, what? 2/6 that are completely made up.[6]

Ok, that's settled.

Hez, since you're not going to answer my case, at least, answer this(which should have nothing to do with who's asking it, by the way. , Same with you Anon, you already said you'd ignore any post calling you scum, okay, fair enough.) What do you two think of KKN, who has a wagon on him right now? Go ahead and answer, because I find it fishy that you two are sitting on a flimsy case and haven't even touched that bandwagon.

I'm done responding to you until someone other than you (and idiot Vifam who replaced scum Yonzy) starts caring. Rainbow didn't care. Anon thinks you are a moron. I do as well. And we both think you are scum that needs to desperately desperately hang.[7]

You should actually read Open 302. You are Magna. I am Hez. He successfully responded to every single one of my cases (and I had very, very few against him), yet I still got him lynched. But keep flailing. It's funny.

[1]I'm attacking your play, not you. Not once have I said you are flailing. Not once have I insulted your play.

[2]THE VERY NEXT, VERY NEXT thing he says! Is an attack the person! LOL Contradictions galore!

[3]And so did you.

[4]Except you don't know for sure that I'm scum, do you? You can't be sure. None of us can be sure, none of us town that is. Ergo, Yes, you are using it.

[5]Yes, it is working, and yes you have used it. Read my cases again.

[6]No, again.

[7]Bam, Scum team is Rainbow, Anon, and Hez. Rainbow wants us to stop fighting. Anon wants us to stop fighting. You want us to stop fighting. That's, well, about it. Why is Yonzy scum? Explain to us more and don't assume anyone will believe you right away just because you think your word is law. Why is Anon town? Why am I obvious scum? It still hasn't been pointed out.

In reality, you are the one flailing. It's obvious, and don't let the fact that you're experienced make it that you are autotown. Anon is NOT confirmed town(you were bussing him earlier, hehe) like you make him out to be.

[YankCane151]

Cool story bro.

Cept I attacked you first.

Be more wrong.

I loved that one post attack that you backed off, yes.

[YankCane151]

Cool story bro.

Cept I attacked you first.

Be more wrong.

Are you sure you aren't Magna's alt? He would get a kick out of this. Oh man, I'm going to enjoy this.

We'll both be alive Day 4 and that's when you get lynched. Countdown is on.

Stop turning this into another game. This is different. If justice prevails, you'll be dead today. Why would I even be lynched day 4 if you think I'm scum now?

[YankCane151]

Why do I care that you got someone lynched? I'm not scared of you. If I die, it's even more evident that you're scum, simple. Now you're ignoring me even more for an asinine reason. Yawn.

Can I get anyone else weighing on this? I'm tired of beating a dead horse.

[YankCane151]

Cool story bro.

Cept I attacked you first.

Be more wrong.

Are you sure you aren't Magna's alt? He would get a kick out of this. Oh man, I'm going to enjoy this.

We'll both be alive Day 4 and that's when you get lynched. Countdown is on.

Stop turning this into another game. This is different. If justice prevails, you'll be dead today. Why would I even be lynched day 4 if you think I'm scum now?

I thought Magna was scum Day 1 too. I only got enough support for his lynch by Day 4. Who was helping me? the scum. And I didn't really care,

because he was acting like you are right now, a pompous, arrogant, annoying ass.

Seriously, go read the game.

That'd be you. Well gee, if we follow suit, the scum are helping you this game too!

[Yes, I will go read it, however.]

[YankCane151]

Why do I care that you got someone lynched? I'm not scared of you. If I die, it's even more evident that you're scum, simple. Now you're ignoring me even more for an asinine reason. Yawn.

Can I get anyone else weighing on this? I'm tired of beating a dead horse.

Nope. I got Magna lynched, and I was pretty much confirmed town for it.

Why are you responding to me and not reading the game I have suggested for you? You are obviously afraid you are going to find something that contradicts just about all of your research.

Because you're using it as a scare tactic against me, and that's all. You think you're hot stuff and you can get me lynched, and as I said, I don't care! Lynching me is the worst thing you can do at this point. I implore you to contradict yourself even more.

P.Edit: I'm tired of you failing to answer a simple attack from a "24/7 OCD pompous arrogant ass" (Another Attack on the person and not on the play! That's like, what, #11?) If you're town, clear your name already by answering these questions. Don't bring up fallacies like your meta to try and defend yourself. Because regardless of your townplay one game, You are throwing scumtells everywhere in this one.

P.P.Edit: It's neither. (Another false dilemna) I am attacking you, you are trying to skirt around the defense (obviously.) you are the one making this difficult. And there's nothing wrong in my eyes in having a case against my top scum read being in the main light of the game. And I don't want people to sit back, I want them to comment, too.

[YankCane151]

And our good friend Rainbow with a remarkably similar post to Hez's. Yep, Anon-Hez-Rainbow. Call it a day.

[YankCane151]

RDash: Why is the lynch pool only of 2 players? What would each of their flips find? Why do I need to drop my case if Hez is being more stubborn than me?

[YankCane151]

bobsnox: Look again. Determine again. Hez is scum, let's not look elsewhere.

[YankCane151]

Why do I care that you got someone lynched? I'm not scared of you. If I die, it's even more evident that you're scum, simple. Now you're ignoring me even more for an asinine reason. Yawn.

Can I get anyone else weighing on this? I'm tired of beating a dead horse.

Nope. I got Magna lynched, and I was pretty much confirmed town for it.

Why are you responding to me and not reading the game I have suggested for you? You are obviously afraid you are going to find something that contradicts just about all of your research.

Because you're using it as a scare tactic against me, and that's all. You think you're hot stuff and you can get me lynched, and as I said, I don't care! Lynching me is the worst thing you can do at this point. I implore you to contradict yourself even more.

P.Edit: I'm tired of you failing to answer a simple attack from a "24/7 OCD pompous arrogant ass" (Another Attack on the person and not on the play! That's like, what, #11?) If you're town, clear your name already by answering these questions. Don't bring up fallacies like your meta to try and defend yourself. Because regardless of your townplay one game, You are throwing scumtells everywhere in this one.

P.P.Edit: It's neither. (Another false dilemna) I am attacking you, you are trying to skirt around the defense (obviously.) you are the one making this difficult. And there's nothing wrong in my eyes in having a case against my top scum read being in the main light of the game. And I don't want people to sit back, I want them to comment, too.

CRY MOAR. And go read the game. Stop pretending like you are going to do it and go read it. I am INCREDIBLY stubborn and VERY vengeful. I attacked Magna the entire fuckign game. I had NO support. I was one vote on Magna the entire game. Then I turned it around when teh game got small enough and lynched him. Why? I was town, and since he was so convinced I was scum he was a liability to keep around. Don't be that liability.

Unvote

I've learned my lesson from that game. I won't have support for your wagon this early in the game. But if you are town, you've fucked up majorly.

Ok, basically, from what I saw, you vote-parked all game (not doing that to me), you lynch townies for the fun of it, and this is supposed to scare me?

I'm not crying, you're the one who is flopping around on nothing. You can't defend yourself, only bring up metas which are hardly relevant. I am

NOT SCARED

of you lynching me. Get that through your head. Just realize that I can be just as stubborn as you, if not more. I don't care if you're vengeful. Heck, this sets up a perfect lynch of you if I turn up dead tomorrow morning! You just admitted you'd do anything to kill me. Great!

You're running scared, you're cornered, and you can't defend yourself. You unvoting me does not matter. You need to defend yourself before I take my vote off. Now you think I'm town for some reason. Okay. Cool. I still think you're scum. Don't worry about support. Push your case and stop being ignorant.

[YankCane151]

RDash: Why is the lynch pool only of 2 players? What would each of their flips find? Why do I need to drop my case if Hez is being more stubborn than me?

Because he is probably town, and you are probably town, and if everypony would realize that the best way to deal with a situation like this one is to diffuse it, use a lynch flip then followed by the night actions to learn more about the ponies in the arguement its better. You are not allowed to argue "more stubborn" either as a reason to carry on an attack, this isnt eye for and eye and hoof for a hoof.

Lynch pool is two because those are my two strongest scum reads. Their flips catch scum and/or clear up reads on neutral players while cementing stronger reads.

Also please tell me you are kidding with Anon scum. I mean, if thats serious you are making Derpy look like Twilight.

@bob - There we go. Voice of reason. While HH is more of an unpredicatble entity in this game, they arent a great lynch. The continual ignoring of the game is a slight tell, especially given that mastin is known for being one of the more overboard posters and Lat is definantly competent. Just would rather go in a different direction

I see Hez has come around. Good. We can start to move on.

Why is Anon town? Why is Hez town? Why are you trying to diffuse this? Why is bob a voice of reason?

Why are you helping Anon and Hez so much, without explaining it.

I just realized you're the third and final person who is appearing pro-town without actually being so. You just want a lynch on anyone, excpet of course, Hez and Anon.

Game Set and Match folks.

[YankCane151]

For the umpteenth time, You are dodging my case. I am not voting you for no reason, stop trying to paint it like such. Don't answer me with a meta because every game is still different. For one, you were town that game, and you are not conf. town this game. If I'm worse than Magna, put your vote back on me if you are as "vengeful and stubborn" as you say you are. Don't be scared, I'll only catch more contradictions. No big deal for good ol' townie Hez!

You and Anon have both said "I'm frustrated, I won't read your posts" this game. Interesting. For one, show don't tell. Your words mean nothing, your actions do. You are scared and defenseless, not frustrated. Answer the questions in THIS game, don't bring up meta.

[YankCane151]

Then tell me what the scumtells are. The only one I've heard is that I'm appearing pro-town, which I've already pointed out you've contradicted way more times than I have.

[YankCane151]

Oooh, chainsaw defense on Rainbow dash too! Just noticed that part.

[YankCane151]

For the umpteenth time, You are dodging my case. I am not voting you for no reason, stop trying to paint it like such. Don't answer me with a meta because every game is still different. For one, you were town that game, and you are not conf. town this game. If I'm worse than Magna, put your vote back on me if you are as "vengeful and stubborn" as you say you are. Don't be scared, I'll only catch more contradictions. No big deal for good ol' townie Hez!

You and Anon have both said "I'm frustrated, I won't read your posts" this game. Interesting. For one, show don't tell. Your words mean nothing, your actions do. You are scared and defenseless, not frustrated. Answer the questions in THIS game, don't bring up meta.

Nobody can be this dense.

This is the, what, twentieth time you are refusing to read the game? You call the meta "hardly relevant", yet this is EXACTLY, almost to the tee, what has happened that game. Except I'm angry with you far earlier than I was angry with Magna.

You can catch all the contradictions you want. It did not help him. I was town.

My case is far past contradictions at this point. You are blatantly skirting around anything regarding my pressure on you. With meta. Not hard answers, not anything regarding this game, just a good ol' rivalry you had townie to townie. Am I town or am I scum? Tell me. Now you're telling me that I'm town to keep me off your back (comparing me to Magna that is), but that won't work.

[YankCane151]

Please, your argument is pathetic. You refuse to answer relevant points and instead focus on my refusal to read one single meta, and then present that as my position in an attempt to fool someone who would only quickly skim through the debate.

You are scum, you know it, I know it, your buddies know it. You even know your case against me is garbage from #229. You've switched from me appearing pro-town to me not reading a meta. Sigh.

ViFam: Yes, it's most likely Rainbowdash.

[YankCane151]

bobsnox being on HH also is also kinda suspect, waiting on his response to your(vifam) questions regarding that.

[YankCane151]

Please, your argument is pathetic. You refuse to answer relevant points and instead focus on my refusal to read one single meta, and then present that as my position in an attempt to fool someone who would only quickly skim through the debate.

You are scum, you know it, I know it, your buddies know it. You even know your case against me is garbage from #229. You've switched from me appearing pro-town to me not reading a meta. Sigh.

ViFam: Yes, it's most likely Rainbowdash.

MY argument is pathetic? That's hilarious. Have you actualyl READ over your first post? Admittedly, I haven't read over your last several, because they are laughable. Anon agrees. Rainbow doesn't even think this conversation between us is worth pursuing, because she KNOWS that you are driving the argument, and that it has no merit.

Bro, go outside. This is now teh 21st time you have refused to meta me.

This is now the 48th time you have refused to answer my case. Yes, it quite is pathethic, considering you have switched stances in a last-ditch attempt to kill me. You know I have you. Why aren't you voting me for pete's sakes? You think I'm scum don't you? Don't be scared of me. What is even the point of including Anon and Rainbow's opinions for them? Nothing, that's what. Just another attempt to try and discredit me. The only way you're doing that is by answering my case instead of calling it a laughable joke because

YOU KNOW YOU CAN'T DEFEND YOURSELF AGAINST IT!

You are screaming "Lynch me" right now. It is quite preposterous that you are continuing to ignore anything related to pressure on you. You are squirming like a worm here.

[YankCane151]

Why is Anon town?

His ISO.

It continually shifts viewpoint not to go along with the pacing of the game but instead to respond to point that are made for and against people being scum, without showing any real motivation to move towards or away from certain players baselessly which tend to be indicative of scum. The only way I start to secondguess this read is with a Tarin-scum flip, even then though, he is a leaning town player.

Why is Hez town?

Gut, and a few weak tells up and down the game.

Why are you trying to diffuse this? Why is bob a voice of reason?

I want to diffuse this because its massively counter intuative and if you guys really are both town, exactly what scum want to create and will thrive off of in these games, which is why we are going to stop it. Bob either realizes this, or doesnt realize it and still has come to the correct path of action.

Why are you helping Anon and Hez so much, without explaining it.

You arent going to listen to reason either way, and this situation is unique as neither of you are actually obviously town like most people are when the time to shut down arguements normally is. Attacking the core of the problem is going to be best instead of reasoning with it.

I just realized you're the third and final person who is appearing pro-town without actually being so. You just want a lynch on anyone, excpet of course, Hez and Anon.

Except of course Hez, CA, you, HH, bob, LC, Yonzy and maybe wicked and avas. Reading is fun.

What do you think of my post on CA way back when? (My iso #23 way back when)

Why is it counter intuitive? I believe very strongly that Hez is scum, what is wrong with me continuing to state my case? Why do you think I won't listen to reason? I've been asking Hez for reason the whole game!

[YankCane151]

Please, your argument is pathetic. You refuse to answer relevant points and instead focus on my refusal to read one single meta, and then present that as my position in an attempt to fool someone who would only quickly skim through the debate.

You are scum, you know it, I know it, your buddies know it. You even know your case against me is garbage from #229. You've switched from me appearing pro-town to me not reading a meta. Sigh.

ViFam: Yes, it's most likely Rainbowdash.

MY argument is pathetic? That's hilarious. Have you actualyl READ over your first post? Admittedly, I haven't read over your last several, because they are laughable. Anon agrees. Rainbow doesn't even think this conversation between us is worth pursuing, because she KNOWS that you are driving the argument, and that it has no merit.

Bro, go outside. This is now teh 21st time you have refused to meta me.

This is now the 48th time you have refused to answer my case. Yes, it quite is pathethic, considering you have switched stances in a last-ditch attempt to kill me. You know I have you. Why aren't you voting me for pete's sakes? You think I'm scum don't you? Don't be scared of me. What is even the point of including Anon and Rainbow's opinions for them? Nothing, that's what. Just another attempt to try and discredit me. The only way you're doing that is by answering my case instead of calling it a laughable joke because

YOU KNOW YOU CAN'T DEFEND YOURSELF AGAINST IT!

You are screaming "Lynch me" right now. It is quite preposterous that you are continuing to ignore anything related to pressure on you. You are squirming like a worm here.

#22.

Read the policy post. I said I'm not reading anything longer than "really" short" if it comes out of your mouth until I've seen your analysis of that meta. Why should I waste my own time and everyone else's when you can just as easily read a fucking mafia game and come to teh same damn conclusion everyone eles is?

But keep trolling, troll. You are squirming like a prostitute on the corner of Main and 3rd.

Except you did read it, because you used my exact same "Squirming" thing. Okay, you can appear tough.

Not everyone is at the conclusion that you are confirmed town and that I am a lying cheater, actually, despite your opinion that you are the world's greatest mafia player.

Now you're bringing up trolling? Gee, do you have any other weak defenses? You go from calling me someone appearing to be town, to being scum for not reading a meta(that really is only slightly relevant to my current case against you, for example, In my skim I did see you answering questions of Magna), to just a troll? Please, get a real defense, and stop acting like you're under huge pressure if I'm just "a troll."

p.edit : @Rainbow: But no, it doesn't have anything to do with being delusional. I see only 3 people attacking me for attacking Hez, that'd be CA, Hez, and You. Hmm. Is "Everyone" aware of my delusionalness? I think not.

[YankCane151]

Doh, my mistake, that was meant towards Hez.(the post edit)

[YankCane151]

Funny how you are after me for not reading a meta when you yourself have not even read the claims against you in THIS game. (Or you're claiming not to read them, whichever.) Contradiction #30, anyone?

[YankCane151]

Okay so I read the Meta. First, you didn't vote him the whole time (Day 2 you were on Muff for the majority of the day).

I actually found something interesting in there too. You were actually, well, townie. I saw a bunch of big posts of you analyzing, you listing all the scum and townreads, analyzing the setup, possible scumteams, everything.

Where, exactly, is that this game?

I told you you had no defense through the meta.

[YankCane151]

In other words, you were actually defending yourself against Magna, efficiently. Magna did seem off. I don't, because YOUR Play is different this time. You aren't refuting my case, you're just stalling. Ball's in your court now.

@Vifam: That post is fishy, but it's really the only thing she's said of importance. Needs to post more before I can get a better read.

[YankCane151]

Post that tries to deflect pressure from his buddy, joining in on the "Yank is scum and I'm not saying why!" thing, wrongfully calling my arguments anti-town, more of Hez/Anon ignoring me because they have no real defense, yawn. No mention of why the arguments are clutter, more mention of meta not relevant to this situation, yadda yadda. Deflecting pressure from me, though I'm his biggest scumread, hm, interesting. There's no need to turn it towards other people while Hez is right here for us.

Someone ask Anon to defend himself, and ask Hez too while you're at it.

How we're not stringing up Hez today is beyond belief to me, to be honest.

[YankCane151]

This is crap.

I'll outline why, but only by request of a player other than Yank. I don't want to get dragged into an argument similar to what Hez and Yank are in right now. They unneccessarily clutter the thread, and nine times out of ten result in just repetition of the same points against each other.

Please don't.

What exactly is anti-town about me attacking Hez? Nothing, that's what. We all need to realize and focus, that Hez here is spewing scumtells quicker than I can post to call them out, and that we don't need to 'look elsewhere' when Hez is right here.

Anon can't even defend himself or his partner, and he knows he can just play the clutter card to prevent him from doing so. Simple tactic, promise everything, yet act on nothing.

[YankCane151]

I'm not going to shut up about Hez and Anon until either A: I'm lynched, B: They're lynched. So live with it, folks, and join in the fun for pete's sakes.

[YankCane151]

Forgot option C: Hez and Anon defend themselves to the point where I think they're town. At this point though, I don't see it happening. (But please, if you're town, do so.)

I refuse to go back to the RVS land of lurk and posts once every 9 hours because no one wants to say anything. There is no clutter, only pressure on scum. Town shouldn't be afraid of discussion. Scum are. Easy. Who's afraid of the discussion? Who's afraid of more arguments? Anon, Hez, and Rainbowdash.(TBF, I'm not that sure on Rainbowdash) Hmm, Interesting, as they're the ones I suspect. Stop stalling, either defend yourselves or lynch yourselves, one of the two. Town will go nowhere by lurking and ignoring these obvious threats to the town.

Everyone needs to comment on this, something. But I'll be damned if I let a mislynch happen because we're too busy twiddling our thumbs and afraid to commit on scum. Realize I have stated multiple times my case against Hez and Anon, with legitimate proof and arguments, and yet both of them continue to skirt my attacks. Does anyone want to copy and paste what I said so they can defend it? Vifam, are you ever going to post your case againse Hez? Can we do anything here? They obviously can't defend themselves against me because they know I'm right. They have to resort to petty insults (I swear I've been called(or my case has been called) every name in the book over the last 4 pages, yet no defense) and cannot defend themselves realistically.

Town doesn't need to insult people to clear their names. Town doesn't need to be sketchy and ignore proof. Town doesn't need to stall their lynch. And most importantly as I said, Town, DOES NOT need to ignore cases on people because they're too lazy to read it and because it's "clutter".

Hez & Anon couldn't be more obvious. It's just a matter of which you want gone first. (Hez.)

[YankCane151]

bobsnox: Look again. Determine again. Hez is scum, let's not look elsewhere.

statements like that on day one are so bad

Why? And why didn't you answer Vifam's questions from earlier?

[YankCane151]

bobsnox: Look again. Determine again. Hez is scum, let's not look elsewhere.

statements like that on day one are so bad

Why? And why didn't you answer Vifam's questions from earlier?

see above. slow down tiger.

what's with the buddying by the way?

Didn't answer my question. Why was my statement bad. And now, how am I buddying. That's 2.

Did you happen to notice that Hez said he was going to find my buddies and hasn't yet? Same thing as HH. There ya go.

[YankCane151]

UNVOTE: KKN
VOTE: Horrifying Hero

What purpose was this going to serve? Do you actually think he is scum? Or are you actually trying to apply some pressure on him?

If it's the former, what makes you think he is scum over KKN?

If it's the latter, what makes you think he will hurry if he's been holding out for this long?


I don't see what made you want to hop on this joke, since I've read HH's ISO, and he's doing some MAJOR foreshadowing, so I think it's best to just wait. If his proof is inconclusive, this vote would be justified. But at the moment a HH lynch seems rushed and not very well thought out.

Your questions are odd. They seem to be assuming I didn't intentionally vote HH and didn't mean to get off the KKN wagon to do so.

[1]

I honestly can't even remember why I'm voting KKN without looking back, but HH didn't (unless I missed it) give me a good reason why Wicked was "confscum," offering a cop out instead. He seems to be promising things and not delivering but making very bold statements which could easily be backed up if he wanted to. It looks like scum trying to get by on rhetoric instead of scumhunting.

That said, I haven't read thoroughly for probably the last page or so. I left my computer in preview for my last post several hours back and only skimmed through when I returned.[2]

[1] Well yes, that's what happens when you vote someone and give no reason, people assume.

[2] I'll be interested to see what you find.

[YankCane151]

Rainbow: What do you mean "we" have decided that my points are false? Absolutely no one besides the two I'm suspecting has called my points false, or crummy, or horrid.

That's "townie" #3 ignoring me, folks!

[YankCane151]

Congratulations bobsnox, you managed to call me townie in the first post and then scum in the next. Which is it, exactly?

Do I really have to die day 1 to confirm my case?

[YankCane151]

They're bad because it's day one. You don't know as much as you think you do. I know you're not new to this site so what's the deal? More often than not stuff like this gets a townie killed day one and then another townie autolynched day two for leading the wagon. I don't know what you and Hez are but neither of you are good day one lynches based purely on that.

Unless one of you has made a huge scumslip, I suggest we look elsewhere.

Sorry to be the voice of reason <_<

Sorry, how is me having a legit case on Hez and him not having one on me and us lynching Hez being a good thing better than that KKN bandwagon you were on earlier? (aka a rvs wagon)

[YankCane151]

meant to say how isn't*

Same goes with your wagoning on HH, by the way.

[YankCane151]

I'm noticing alot of attacks from me(this is one area where Anon is different, in this sense) regarding voting me, but no one following through on actually doing it. Seems like some people (Hez, Rainbow, Snox) are scared of me flipping town.

[YankCane151]

I'm noticing alot of attacks from me(this is one area where Anon is different, in this sense) regarding voting me, but no one following through on actually doing it. Seems like some people (Hez, Rainbow, Snox) are scared of me flipping town.

Whoa what happened to ConfiAnonscum?

Still think so until he decides to stop crabbing up and actually defend himself/stop or give a good reason why he is teaming with Hez, but I highly doubt there's 4 mafia in this game so I'm keeping my eyes out.

[YankCane151]

Was that link where lat said Hez was obvious town broken, or just not meant to be there?

[YankCane151]

This game is aptly named, I'll say that. Let's see who can talk the loudest.

Vifam - Your questions have obvious answers. Asking them is implying that the answers are not obvious and that I did not do something very obvious for very obvious reasons. In other words, you're trying too hard. A good question is, "Why did you vote for HH?" A bad question is, "Do you think he is actually scum?" That contains a lot of ridiculous implications, or it implies I'm being disingenuous, neither of which you have even the slightest reason to think right now.

Yank is making your arguments for you. That's basically buddying.

Yank - KKN was not a RVS Lobster was a RVS. HH is scummy for reasons I already listed. Your argument that Hez is a better lynch does not even consider my presupposition that all lynches like the one we'd have to have to lynch you or Hez are bad this early. We're not meeting on the same page so just drop it I guess. Also, your death would not confirm Hez's alignment if you're town. that's the kind of stupid outcome I'm trying to steer us away from. Quit making yourself a martyr when no one is asking you to be.

I figured this is the kind of reaction I would get for suggested a moderate course. Oh well.

Yank - who is your best alternative lynch to Hez?

Vifam - who do you least want to lynch at this stage?

What do you think of HH after lat's post on Wicked?

Yes, Of course I don't want to be a martyr. It's just aggravating that Hez is getting away with not answering me just because people have come to his rescue by trying to keeping me on track. I don't want to be on track, I want Hez(And Anon) to defend himself so I can move on. I'm just very convinced that if we were two townies arguing, there'd be actual effort from Hez to defend himself and refute my points, when there really isn't. I'll stop here before Rainbow and Anon come in again and tell me to stop repeating myself.

Anon, obviously, is my alternative. For roughly the same reasons.

[YankCane151]

Rainbow: That's all well and good, but it's not like they're the only ones I'm talking about. Heck, even in my posts to them, I've asked them about other things in the game (like the KKN wagon), which they also haven't answered. What do you want me to do now? Just sit back and lurk because no one will listen to me?

In my eyes, my case is productive. Yes, we are a town, and yes, I am going to continue to be involved with other things in the game besides Hez. But in no way will I Let Hez coast through the game either just because you say I should stop. If that's the case, then basically the reason you want me to stop (because I'm letting scum slip) would be the same thing that you're going to let Hez and Anon do, and I don't think they're confirmed town. Am I confirmed town too? Who else is confirmed town to you? Do you see how this could get out of hand?

You're making stuff up like "the flow of the game". Forget the flow of the game. Make Hez answer the questions. Make Anon defend himself. I don't want to drag it out, I just want answers(I think I've said this almost every post over the past 3-4 pages, yet they continue to make excuses). It's not my fault that they can't answer them.

I'm not moving my vote until someone convinces me with a better case, or Hez defends himself, simple. You have your vote, I have mine. I'm not going to stop partaking in the town activities.

If Hez is just simply not going to answer MY questions(Where's Vifam's case, by the way?), then he better at least contribute to the town in other ways.

--

I was hoping for a more indepth look at the specific reactions to the claim from HH. The points lat made regarding Wicked make my original gutread feel a little better.

Tarson/Simo/Avas all need way more content.

[YankCane151]

I'd welcome some defusing. I think the argument goes too far when the other guy posts images and calls me a troll for no reason, so I'm just going to leave it alone.

[YankCane151]

simo, What's your read on ViFam and bobsnox (whose latest posts were in between my arguments)?

[YankCane151]

Okay, at the request of Rainbowdash, I'm going to consolidate my Hez case one last time. If he posts again trying to be circular with the argument, I'm just going to ignore it, because I'm done with the clutter. I want him to respond so we can be done, I don't want him immaturely calling me a troll or something to that extent.

Hez is scum because:
-His case on me is wishy washy and also wrong. He originally voted for me for my RQS post, but unvoted me, only to re-vote me when CA made a case against me.
-I pointed out his contradictions, to which he responded that my case was "utter crap" "garbage" "waste of time". aka, an IIoA defense.
-I also point out the contradictions in CA's post, to which Hez immediately comes in and also calls that case the same words as before.
-Annoyed, I decide to change my approach. I post wiki links to all his fallacies. I start analyzing deeper into his posts, and come up with some valid points. Hez does not do anything but continue to call my case "crap" and call me "sure scum" because I'm voting him.(And he called me out on OMGUS, too.)
-I took this as him slipping. He then posts a link to Open 302 which he wishes to use to drive me off without answering the questions of me, then he unvotes me in an AtE to try and get me off. (Meanwhile he accused me of attacking him so he'd get off me)
-In Open 302, I was surprised to find that HezLucky's playstyle there(he was town) is different from this game. Alot more analysis, he actually defended himself, etc. I asked him where that attitude was this game. He responds by calling me a troll.
-All the while that he's had his vote off of me, he hasn't weighed in anywhere else on the game, including a post where I asked him his opinion on the KKN wagon. I fear he may end up trying to cruise trough the rest of the game because our argument was majority-deemed townVtown.

Those are the points I want Hez to respond too. Shouldn't be hard.

Regarding CA, His latest two ISO #12 and #13 give me a vibe similar to Hez, and he also has refused to answer my(or any, for that matter, as he has mentioned twice already) simple case against him(which is basically some contradictions which are weak scumtells at best, anyways). The IIoA shrug off of my post in #13 is what bothers me the most.

I don't want to start another argument, don't worry. I just want my concerns answered. CA, You can explain why my case is 'crap' because I'm not going to get into another argument with you this time.

That is all.

[YankCane151]

Couple more points(I know, I need to stop double posting so much)

Hez, who do you think is also scum if I am? (Who are my buddies like you promised to find?) Do you still suspect Tarson, who Wicked built a case against and then You called it a good point? (Before you voted me, and now your vote is off me) Who are your non-CA town reads? (These shouldn't be hard to answer because if you're town you should be thinking of these anyways, forget who's the one asking them)

CA, Am I still your top suspect? Who else looks guilty? Who are your non-Hez town reads?

[YankCane151]

CA: Confirming them, or at least, making me feel a little more sure of the gutread.

I'll be interested to hear Wicked's thoughts on HH and the other developments when he comes back from V/LA

Avas: What did you think of my case? and Why isn't Hez getting an FoS too? Basically your whole reasoning for doing so to me is that I distracted the town for 4-5 pages, which Hez was also responsible for. Hez also called me confirmed scum too, if you recall.

[YankCane151]

Whoa whoa whoa. Avas: Why didn't you attack bobsnox for his votes #1 and #13 ISO, where he didn't give a reason for either, but you attacked KKN for the same thing when he did it once?

[YankCane151]

Right.

I was more referring to my concise end-be-all post earlier in the page #292.

[YankCane151]

Okay, time to join the Tars wagon. Way to copy and paste others' opinions of me out of nowhere after lurking for 2+ days.

vote:tarsonisocelot

Good thing our friend Bobsnox got another wishy washy vote and more bandwagoning. What's that, wagon #4 he's been on this game?

[YankCane151]

Read: When your whole case on me is that I'm a troll, I take it that you don't actually have a case. Do more than just make things up, Tarson.

[YankCane151]

I thought I wasn't the person to eliminate before Tarson brought it up?

[YankCane151]

So to get you straight, you want to lynch me because I had an argument with Hez even though you think I'm town, and because I've 'refused to change strategies' when I have.

Meanwhile, You've been wishy-washy with your voting, hopping on every wagon possible while never making a case of your own, misrepping me while claiming I am misrepping you, and going back on your "Let's not lynch Yank because he's town" just because you're mad that I'm calling you out. Ergo, OMGUS from you.

Excellent. It's good to see the scum reactions to the Hez-Yank arguments come out in plain sight, eh? Maybe it wasn't as anti-town as you think after all.

[YankCane151]

Step back and revisit the game instead of 'skimming' and then missing vital flaws in your case because of it.

[YankCane151]

YankCane's Post 37 is also scummy. That doesn't answer el simo's question, and it's pretty blatant shipping of a questionable accusation by ConfidAnon.

@Yank: What purpose do you think AtE serves as scum? How did that apply to el simo's post?

Check #85, as I said it was just a snarky explanation. AtE is a fallacy like any other, used to get on town's good side or to make people relate so they give the person a break.

REALLY think there's a connection between Yank and Wicked. This one hits hard.

Think I already explained that one, but that was a gut read(which was later refined a bit by HH's catchup post)

I think Yank's deflection in Post 163 is scummy. Saying "there's no legit case against me" is not a defense, it's a cop-out.

Same thing with Yank just calling out his attacks as OMGUS in Post 168.

No, you're just being a selective reader. Why's Hez sure town to you, by the way?

SHITTY USE OF WIKITELLS BY YANK. God I hate that.

I was trying everything.

Best place for the vote for now. He needs a lot more pressure than he's been getting. I would feel great about lynching Yank but there doesn't seem to be a LOT of popular support for that.

Or you could build a case against me if you think I'm scum. Why's that again?

[YankCane151]

Snox, who else is on your scummy list besides me?

[YankCane151]

I don't know where HH or Hez or KKN's or Wicked's catchup posts/cases are, but it's well overdue.

[YankCane151]

We've got a couple days, so it's worth hearing.

[YankCane151]

HH, at this point, I would be fine with an incomplete wall, as long as it's in before the deadline.

[YankCane151]

Not going to touch the mentions of me on Hez's wall, but I swear there's a team with Hez and Snox. He mentions suspicions of Bob on his wall but fails to add to his "richter scale", and then later gives him a couple of positive "richters". Yawn. Someone ask him to explain why Snox is so town, because he's going to ignore everything I say anyways. Also ask him to comment on Snox's wagoning too.

Unvote, Vote:avasthearties

The case on him is solid and I don't particularly like the case on Wicked, because as he said, it's based on him being V/LA. There needs to be a better case on him than "for the heck of it" before I see him as scum(which HH claims he will provide, so.)

[YankCane151]

Snox, why do you think Hez' blatant tunneling of me and anti-town stance where he is 'not contributing to town' and 'single-minded' and 'pushing for only one person's lynch' and 'dragging out the argument more' is town? Because it was a scum read when I 'did it'.

Hez, control him better, please.

[YankCane151]

Also my reads are different from everyone elses, they're different from yours. Which don't make sense,

you repeatedly slam bobs posts but still rate him as townie. And HH has done nothing this entire game but dribble and you calling him town as well.

Bingo, especially the first sentence.

[YankCane151]

And snox said I'm the one who didn't drop it, smh.

[YankCane151]

Seriously snox, please tell me the difference between me staying on Hez (during my pressuring of him) and you calling me 'tunneling scum' and Hez who is at this basing all of his scumreads on me being scum when he doesn't have a case against me other than him being furious at me for arguing with him. (Yes, I read the big post, and no, there isn't a case, just him upping me on the richter scale to 600 percent or something.)

Do you not think it's more dangerous for Hez to be blatantly disregarding of my play and leading his own personal witchhunt against me because he's upset than me pressuring him and then moving on? I think it's clear to me that Hez still has sour grapes over me.

Oh well, when he NKs me tonight (can't count the number of times he's said he's going to get me killed), maybe we'll all realize then. I'm over that situation, but I really do want to know why you're siding with Hez so hard for fairly flawed reasoning.

[YankCane151]

And what happens if I turn up dead tomorrow and you never answer my question? Trust me, this question matters to me because I think it's important enough to note if there is indeed a team of you and Hez. You liking his post isn't the issue; it's the fact that me and him are playing similar (I'd argue he's more focused on irrelevant things than I am, but that's neither here nor there) but you're ragging on me for it and praising Hez for it. What's the difference?

You answering this one question won't take away from any discussion or anything, so just answer it.

[YankCane151]

Another thing to look at in Town vs. Town arguments is opportunistic bandwagoners, namely Vifam's spot.

Tbh Hez, I think we are just two stubborn players.

Where in the world is HH?

[YankCane151]

I think if I was more inclined, we'd be having another 5 page argument.

[YankCane151]

Snox, what changed your read on Dash?

[YankCane151]

Someone is going to have to explain to me eventually why being a mediator is a scumtell and not a playstyle tell.

I would be willing to vote Wicked over Avas at this point given my recent loop over to bob.

But why aren't you voting Wicked?

Also, what makes your mediator-ness a playstyle issue rather than the scumtells that HH brought up? What sets you apart from scum mediator and town mediator? (AKA: Defend yourself better)

On a quick skim of the RDash ISO there was alot of flip flopping near the old deadline.

unvote, Vote: Wicked

HH indeed finally put the words behind my gut read on Wicked early in the game.

[YankCane151]

If any of you have a shred of trust left in me today, vote Vifam. That IS the right play.

I don't like this post... If ViFam flipped town, what would you get from it?

Unvote,Vote:Rainbowdash

[YankCane151]

unvote

Vote:ViFam

[YankCane151]

There's some WIFOM In killing a vig over the cop. But I'm pretty skeptical. I'll re-read with Snox/Dash town in mind.

[YankCane151]

^ and ViFam scum in mind, too.

[YankCane151]

Okay from #254 ViFam wanted a lynch of either LC, simo, or Snox(town). The one mention of Wicked was to drive people back to the KKN wagon and off of Wicked(who didn't even have a wagon at the time.

Mostly just active lurking past that. Mentioned Dash(town), Simo(again) and Avas as scummy too.

[YankCane151]

That's assuming there's a roleblocker.

[YankCane151]

When exactly did MT join the game?

[YankCane151]

What do I think of him, or what do I think of why you investigated him?