Open 326: Pick Your Poison (Ende des Speils!)

thunderwielder · Post Post #13 (isolation #0) » Wed Aug 17, 2011 8:55 am

VOTE: saulres. For not voting to kill someone. We ARE trying to stop World War III after all...

thunderwielder · Post Post #14 (isolation #1) » Wed Aug 17, 2011 8:56 am

Plus, it can't be RoboThor! Thor is ALWAYS town!

thunderwielder · Post Post #55 (isolation #2) » Wed Aug 17, 2011 12:01 pm

I love how active this game is thus far! Woo!

I'm heading out soonish, and I'm planning on posting again addressing somethings tonight, but for now, I would like to start with some Random Questions that aren't so random.

I don't think Thor has an issue with Questions (he was in my last game), I think he has an issue with Random Questions. I tried asking some "Random Questions" at the beginning of my last game, and (although Thor hadn't replaced in) I caught flak from a bunch of players, because they were kind of useless and I was just trying to get something started since my game was lulling at the very beginning.

But I'm going to ask some that I feel are relevant.
1) What time zone are you in?
2) What is your experience playing Mafia (ie, how many games have you played, how long etc)?
3) How often do you post/How often do you expect to post?

The responses (so it's easier for people quoting--you're welcome, I know I'm fantastic).

1)I'm in EDT (Ontario, Canada)
2)I have played two games on this site (just replaced into an ongoing third), and I have played one game off the site with a bunch of my friends (which is what made me want to play with new people--since we were all really new and it was kind of a shit show)
3)This question might be not too useful. I post as much as I can. I haven't played much Mafia, so I'm still in that "addicted to it like a drug" phase, but I'm working right now, so most of my posts will be at night (at least for the next tiny bit). I'm also moving in the beginning of September, and still need to find a new place and get it set up, but once I do that, my frequency will drastically increase. However, I post as much as I can. I quite enjoy this game as one of my main pastimes at the current moment in time.

I gotta go, hopefully I'll post again before going to bed to actually address things that have happened in the game, and not just spout jibber jabber (Thor! You get it!)

thunderwielder · Post Post #89 (isolation #3) » Wed Aug 17, 2011 5:53 pm

Okay, I’d like to start with this.

NihilisticNinja wrote:I don't like thunderwielder's random questions. Not because they are random, but because they don't seem to give the town that much information on the other players. Scum often ask generic questions like these, because it makes it look like the player is contributing, when they aren't.

Well, hurr de durr, if you looked a bit closer you’d see that I posted at the end saying:

Thunderwielder wrote:I gotta go, hopefully I'll post again before going to bed to actually address things that have happened in the game, and not just spout jibber jabber

And actually, these questions have been a help to me, because I wanted to remind myself of who was a newbie, and who wasn’t. And with Saul's answers, it reminded me that when we all /inned, saulres said that he would /in if our glorious mod would have a newbie player (which was one of the main things I was checking by asking the questions). This makes me think that all of his roleplaying and not too much contribution is based around newbieness, rather than malevolence or evilness.
Plus there’s this

Saulres wrote:Are we still in RVS so I can change my vote without it looking suspicious?

Which, although later proclaimed as a joke, I don’t read it as a joke a scummy player would make. Okay, that reasoning sounds a little flimsy, but I think there’s a bandwagon being started on saul quickly and for little to no reason. I think this is the reasoning for at least one vote on Saul, and I don't believe it has enough weight to it to lay down the vote (I’m not sure if anyone’s removed their votes from him at this moment in time, but I’m pretty sure there’s still 4 votes).

That being said, I’m not a big fan of Lane right now, because it seems like he keeps on poking the bear that is “Votes on saul” but isn’t really doing anything about it.

–This doesn’t have much relevance anymore (it was about post 42, I took a break from typing this up), but I figured I’d let you all see it. I just don’t want us to get tunnelvisioned on the first day, and leave some possible slips unnoticed. In my last game I was criticized for not having a good enough memory of things that came earlier on in the day (or even the previous days), so I want to try and rectify that in this game.

In terms of the Maruchan situation

Auckmind wrote:It continues with Maruchan useing Thor's hate of RQS as a Scapegoat as far as a reason for his reason for wanting to skip RQS. I would like to hear Thor's opinion a lot for this.

I agree thoroughly with this. That’s most of the seeming case for me.
Although the points about buddying that Auckmind just brought up I think have relevance. I’m not sure how much relevance, I’ll let you guys know when my other game finishes (because there was a lot of buddying by someone and I’m trying to solidify in my mind—and for myself, not based upon “regular play” or theory—how much of a tell buddying is in the first few pages, or if it’s more of a tell later on).

I’m sorry if this post is lacking my usual flair for transitory sentences and through lines of thought pertaining to a thesis. I was writing notes, when we were at 75 posts, and then I had to go to a meeting (yes, at 11pm my time) and then I came back to see 88 posts, so newer information has arisen that I don’t know if I have the awake-ness to properly dissect.

Anyway, I don’t think Saulres is the right choice right now so UNVOTE: saulres
And before I lay a vote down for Maruchan, I’d like to hear what Thor has to say and then re-evaluate based upon Maruchan’s fear of Thor driving someone into the ground. I’d have to say, after just playing a game with Thor, it’s a legitimate fear because he has a glorious beard and an even more glorious sense of pressure and reasoning. (And yes, Thor, I’m sorry, but this is the last time I’m going to complement you. At least until you catch me a scum. Because I don’t think I really need to build you up, and because I think it’s time for me to stop referencing you in every post I make. I think I’m just excited to be playing with a friendly Robo and Thor face who shall hopefully have my back this time and not be trying to murder me.)

And, since I think I should lay my vote down on someone, I’m going to lay it down on
VOTE: NihilisticNinja
Because he didn’t like my questions, which I took great pains to make relevant, and because he jumped on Saul’s wagon… well, not really for any reasons.
Right now, I’m fairly confident in my newbie town read, and I think the only reasonings he gave for evidence as scum are what I’m reading as newbie town.
Plus he’s was the fourth vote in the chain… which now I think may not be as big a deal as I was hoping it would be, since this is the biggest game I’ve ever played in and I guess it only put him to L-3. To those of you who are used to playing with at least this number, do you think this is a useless tell?

thunderwielder · Post Post #111 (isolation #4) » Thu Aug 18, 2011 11:56 am

glowball wrote:ANYONE USING META AS AN EXCUSE TO WALL WILL BE EXECUTED. MAYBE NOT IN THIS GAME BUT IN MY HEART...

I WILL NOT BE READING WALLS.

IT IS DONE.

I know you "corrected yourself", Glowball, (I haven't had time to read through the whole thread, and most likely won't be able to until tomorrow night, because I have to leave soon) but I want to quote this.

Can you explain to me how the above quote is considered pro-town?

Because, to me, this is a blanket statement for you to avoid really analyzing anything that isn't shouting at you in the face.

In my last game, I got into an argument with a guy who turned out to be scum on the same subject. He too vehemently disagreed that anyone should ever post a wall. Which I didn't buy. Which led me into an investigation against him. Which led us to lynching him and finding out he was an evil scumbag.

My main point about this attitude (in that game, this game, and will be for my entire Mafia career), is that making everyone NOT post walls limits the amount of information we have to analyze. Sure, it might be easier to read right before going to sleep when the eyes are getting tired from a whole day and from looking at the computer screen for a long period of time.... but in that case, just take a break. Rest your eyes for a half hour, and come back to it later.

There is

NO reason

why we should refrain from posting walls. If everyone in this game were posting walls, sure it might take longer to read, but we'd be able to see who was just trying to fill up space in order to blend in and who was actually trying to hunt scum and win the game. Analyzing language is not just a part of the game, it's pretty much almost ALL of the game.
Why would we then encourage everyone to

limit

their conversation and their contribution to the game?
I can think of no reason. Unless it's scum trying to limit the amount of analysis, and hoping everyone will just stop contributing all together.
(If you hadn't corrected the above post that I quoted, I would be voting for you based upon my principles alone--and a bit of my last game).
Again, why does a townie want to limit information?
I LOVE unnecessary walls. Because it's pretty freaking obvious that they ARE unnecessary, and that MEANS something. It tells us something about the poster. It gives us more of a chance to see flaws in arguments and contradictions.
I say: give me more walls.
If they are filled with content, we get closer to finding scum.
If they are filled with nothing meaningful, we get closer to finding scum, because townies should be always trying to contribute SOMETHING.

thunderwielder · Post Post #117 (isolation #5) » Thu Aug 18, 2011 5:21 pm

In response to Nihilistic Ninja, I was referring to this post, which saul says "To make a joke." But now re-reading it, I think he wasn't referring to his previous post but making a question. So now I can see your side of things. To me it looked like you were being opportunistic, but L-3 is not opportunistic...

It's late. I had another quote of yours to put in. But now I forget what it was...
Oh yeah.

Also, I misread Thunder's post. I personally found the way it was formatted confusing, so apologies to Thunder for misrepping him.

No worries.
UNVOTE: NihilisticNinja
I thought the misrepresentation was on purpose at first, and I couldn't see your real reasonings, but I think I now understand. I was also trying to catch someone who jumped on the wagon for flimsy reasonings, but I think I was too eager. I should have waited until the L-2 level at least, especially for an opportunistic sort of tell.

thunderwielder · Post Post #118 (isolation #6) » Thu Aug 18, 2011 5:29 pm

Oh, and

@Mod, when is our deadline? It says August 13 right now...

thunderwielder · Post Post #132 (isolation #7) » Fri Aug 19, 2011 1:55 pm

Glowball, why is saulres more scummy than Maruchan? In your ISO you seem to be critisizing Maruchan a lot more than you're critisizing Saulres. Plus your comment about walls certainly doesn't apply to Saulres. So why is your vote on him instead of on Maruchan?
And who are the scum that are creating walls of text? And why are you not voting for them, if you believe so strongly in that tell? Can you re-iterate your entire case on Saul for me? Why is there more chance of him being scum than town?

thunderwielder · Post Post #134 (isolation #8) » Fri Aug 19, 2011 3:27 pm

I never said Saulres is more scummy than Maruchan that is just a deduction you made from my vote placement- why don't you check when that vote was made...

It IS a deduction from your vote placement, considering the random voting stage is now over, and I consider most of the votes that are on people as votes that they intend to count.

You say:

Then there are the scumz who write long walls to look like they are contributing- and like I said I can tell by half way through whether this is the case or not.

Okay, so I'm interpreting that as you can tell which walls are like that. Or that you're at least confident enough in yourself that you feel you can deduce which walls are made by scum trying to fit in. (That's the reason I don't stop people from typing up walls, because if they slip up, I think there's a good chance of someone catching it).

Then you say in the same post

I've see two types of walls so far:
1. Walls of back and forth arguments with quotes taking up half of the wall...
that's okay if you are responding, I get it- but you guys can definitely make an effort to neaten things up
2. Walls of commentary stretched out beyond belief.

And number two is what I'm interpreting as what you just referred to in the first quote.

Followed by

I doubt that everyone writing these walls is scum, which is why I said what I said...

Which to me implies that you believe at least one person writing walls at this moment is scum. And since I can only assume that you mean Maruchan (because he's the only other person you've brought grievances about), it makes me wonder why you're hounding him and not laying a vote down on him, since you

Never had a formal "case" on Saulres, again check when the vote was made.

This is my point. I'm curious why you aren't using your vote to pressure your read, but are instead laying it down on Saulres, when you had yet to make a proper case on him, and thereby keeping him as a very viable option number two. I read Saul as town (He's too suspicious to be suspicious, in my opinion), and apart from your recent post about him

At this point there is more of a chance of him being scum because he reminds me of myself as a newb,

, you haven't said much about him.
I'm not saying you can't scumhunt amongst other people, but it makes more sense to me that if you're coming up with all this evidence against Maruchan--or scum points, or what have you-- you should be voting for him.
I'm reading this behaviour as trying to keep the suspicion on him, but then if he's lynched by the end of the day and flips town, you can say: "Oh, hey guys, don't think about me, because I wasn't on the wagon." OR if the Saul wagon takes on speed, you can again revert back to "Well, did you guys see what I voted him for? You shouldn't consider me, but consider other people more, because mine was a vote that wasn't based upon much, and then just kind of stood there until he was lynched" -- giving you room to manouever in either case if we lynch either of them and they flip town--absolving you of responsibility in either case.

Am I still 'intentionally misrepping' you?
To the other players, does this line of thinking make sense to anyone else? ISO Glowball and see what I'm talking about.

Of course, if they're both scum, you'll have my full apologies. But we need to see a flip before we can determine that. And with the non-case on Saul and Thor having yet to show up and confirm if Maruchan's fears were founded in nothing, I don't have enough information to condemn either of them.

thunderwielder · Post Post #151 (isolation #9) » Fri Aug 19, 2011 7:03 pm

Supreme Overlord pointed out thunder's hypocrisy. Why did you criticize saulres for not rvs voting If you don't haveout now, when we're well into content?

You're right. I was hesitant to cast my vote quickly again, because it didn't yield many results with NihilisticNinja, and I was forced to unvote after seeing that I was mistaken and misinterpreted particular wordings of posts. Plus, I wanted to see what Glowball had to say about the expansion of my case, and I want to do an ISO of her completely, before I lay down any other vote. It's because I DO want my vote to matter when I cast it, and for it to say something quite serious, since we are now out of RVS. I want to be as thorough as possible.

I criticized Saul for different reasonings, because it still was RVS, and I was seeing how he reacted. But then after he reacted in a way that I feel is more likely to be town (I don't have any particular theory to back me up, just my feelings--a male's intutiion if you will), I retracted my vote and decided to focus my attention on those who jumped on that wagon. Which is where I am right now. Currently NihilisticNinja is the most town, and I am still forming my opinion about Maruchan and Glowball.

But I understand the vote for Lane very much. And Nobody Special has been contributing little to no content.
However, right now (or when I get the time in the next few days--Next few days until Monday are pretty hectic for me... actually, I'll say

tentative V/LA until Monday night

just in case I can't get to a computer or spend the time I'd like to breaking down people's posts), I'm trying to focus on the Saul wagon, because out of all the wagons that were formed, he's the one I get the most townie read on. Or at least I have that in my mind, until I get the time to do another read of him when I'm not tired, because my opinion of his townieness isn't likely to change until then.

thunderwielder · Post Post #253 (isolation #10) » Tue Aug 23, 2011 3:45 am

Sorry Xalxe, and sorry guys for my inactivity, I got unexpectedly busy last night, and I was too tired to read up on the thread and post. I will do a thorough readthrough and post my thoughts and my top suspects today.

thunderwielder · Post Post #256 (isolation #11) » Tue Aug 23, 2011 7:55 am

Okay, team, get ready for a shitstorm.
I’ve started to break my suspicions down, and I’lltry to put spoiler tags on them, for whichever weiners complain about wall size. But I have a lot to say, and you’ll all just have to deal with that.

Spoiler: Why you should all be voting for Glowball

First off, I’d like to present an analysis of Glowball’s most recent posts that I find off.
(This starts at post 216, because I was reading through and catching up, and then decided to start taking notes halfway through, so this is where they start)

Post 216

Glowball wrote:NS and Overlord...nah, I mean if you don't agree with my Maruchan case then why ask for my reads on others?

This is ridiculous. I address it later in my post. Why should a town hesitate in giving reads? I don’t see a single reason why.

Post 218

Glowball wrote:Maruchan- NOW you are putting your own feelings onto me. I never said a lack of defense is scummy... In fact I find it more scummy that you would overly defend. You can do both though. You can scumhunt and defend. Like this last post of yours you could fit in some scumhunting you are obviously online

means nothing. Her “obviously online” comment doesn’t mean anything. Because I’m doing two games right now, and during my tentative V/LA I was able to post in the other game because it requires less analysis.

Post 220

Glowball wrote:Awesome. SO you are in too many games to follow up on questions that you've asked- and STILL have yet to follow up even after I pointed it out. Now you have decided to further take yourself away from mafia, which would be fine if you hadn't already said you had to much on your plate to follow up. You are using ridiculous circumstances not to scumhunt and seriously you should just replace out if you don't have the desire and time to dedicate.

She’s using ‘ridiculous circumstances’ and reasoning to try to push a lynch on Maruchan, instead of addressing concerns that her case against him and her reasons for voting were pretty weak (as pointed out merely posts before by Thor).

Post 226

Glowball wrote:And this is what happens when the game progresses at an alarming rate... L-2 on page 10. I am not ready for this day to end, but I am also not in the mood to unvote so I just ask that anyone even thinking of voting Maruchan hold their votes for more discussion.

I WANT EVERYONE'S THOUGHTS ON THIS WAGON AND ITS PROGRESSION

I guess I’m in no position to address the “alarming rate” part of this post, since this is the largest game I’ve played, but is it really that far along? Why doesn’t she want more votes on a player that she feels so strongly is scum? She said before

I am fine with a Maruchan or Saulres lynch.

Post 159, and then

This is not to say that Saulres is off of the hook- he's just laid low recently, adding to his lack of scumhunting and I am considering giving him the BoD and not just assume that he's newbscum sliding by like I did in my newbie game.
That being said, short of some crazy upset Maruchan or Saulres need to die today their flips will tell the most...

In post 213.
This, however, immediately followed post 194

I will list why Maruchan is scummy in my next post, but I unvoted because I feel like I may have missed a few things and that Saulres may not be my best vote choice.

where she says that Saulres may not be the best vote choice, yet she gives the ultimatum that it must be one or the other in her next post.

She has been tunneling solely on these two people, and not even responding to any of the other accusations or questions that have been thrown around

.

Post 232

Glowball wrote:But I would like to say BRAVO. You have basically sealed my vote. When exactly did I become your scum suspect? When I started questioning you? This is just you OMGUS placing arguments against me without a vote and trying to discredit me. You are a feeler.

This is misrepresentation or an honest mistake that she doesn’t interpret Maruchan’s post correctly, but then the next post after it, she addresses his bottom post in the correct fashion (or the way that I interpreted Maruchan’s post) which makes me not understand what Glowball was getting at with the above quote. Could you explain that a bit more for me Glow?

Post 251

Glowball wrote:oh and to address this, it's not me withholding information, it's the fact that if my reads cannot be trusted or are viewed as weak then they are virtually of no help to any of you from that pov. You can convince me otherwise and I'll tell you

Is bullshit. Sorry, but it is. Every townie’s voice is

supremely

important. There’s no reason not to provide your reads if you’re town, because, even if you get lynched (and somebody brought this up earlier, not sure who, Maruchan? Somebody questioning him, Amrun maybe?), then it DOES matter. Because if you flip town, we’ll then have valuable reads to go on, ones that may or may not be misguided, but ones that definitely come from a townie point of view.

Oh, and before I forget, Glowball’s “case” against Maruchan in post 213 is just rubbish. And then the comment

Now after all of this you may wonder- well if you think he's scummy why aren't you voting him?" Good Point...
VOTE: Maruchan

is equally rubbishy. My read on this (and, yeah, I AM inferring, because that’s how people develop reads, hurr de durr) is that she kept getting pressured to vote for Maruchan, tried to develop an actual case on him, came up with… well, not so much of a case, said, “Look guys, I’m totally voting for him, don’t put me under pressure for that anymore!”, and subsequently put him to L-2, which isn’t that bad, considering we have a week left and plenty more discussion to be had.

The above are Glowball’s direct quotes, and why I take issue with them.

Spoiler: Part 2

Spoiler: A summation, for you pansies who don’t know how to read

My read of Glowball is as follows. I think she is tunneling on the newer players and hoping to get an easy mislynch of them day 1. The turn towards me happened only after I questioned her vote placement and her most vocal suspect. She then finished off by putting me under suspicion, (in order to discredit any negative energy headed her way).
She has yet to turn the limelight towards any other players (please quote me if I’m wrong on this). In my opinion, it’s because she feels the newer players are easier to attack. Well, sucks to be you, Glowball, because I don’t go down that easily. Noramp got into the same “strategy” in my last game, and I found him out and fucked him up. I don’t take kindly to people fingering me because a)it’s just weird to think of… and b)they need to have a good reason. Not just because I called them out on something, and they felt the need to blow up and attack anyone who puts them under the limelight.
On top of that, you are blatantly

refusing

to give your input on anyone, but keep pushing for lynching either Maruchan or Saulres. You are not opening yourself up to other possibilities (even though we have THREE scum in play, and your scenario only encompasses one—or two because apparantely I’m very scummy still. I’m not an idiot, so I guess I have to be scummy), and you are driving for today’s lynch in a way that doesn’t set us up to find the other two remaining scum.
You’re pushing these lynches in a way that even if people recognize that there’s an even chance of scum or town, you’ll still push the lynch on a townie for the sake of “information.” Yet you refuse to provide any OTHER information. We need to lynch SCUM, and you’re going about this day as though it’s a write-off and we’re bound to lynch a townie and then we can proceed from there. It IS possible to lynch scum on the first day, and

that should be our goal

.
You’re pushing the easy lynch on the newer players and hoping you won’t get caught doing it, and are therefore trying not to piss off any more experienced players and stay under the radar.
VOTE: Glowball

I feel like there’s SO much more to say. Everywhere I look, I see defensive, scummy, or anti-town behaviour. She started the day off fine, almost townish to me, but then when more and more content came, she started to crack under the pressure and started to flail.

Everyone should vote on this wagon. Yes, I am calling it a wagon with ONE vote. I would vote for her seven times right now if I could.

(And

this

is why I wait to cast my vote. Because I sure hope it means a heck of a lot more than it would have before.)

Please read all of this. It’s good shit. And I didn’t write it up for my own health, so fucking read it all. I want at least three more votes here by the time I get back, although six would be great too. Go.

Oh, and there's a vote in there. It goes like this (just re-emphasizing my vote so it's not hidden in a spoiler tag): VOTE: Glowball (Mod, you can count that as two votes if you want, I'm not super picky....)

Spoiler: Everything else

Okay, that’s my long catch up post from my three days that I’ve been away. Also, from here on out until probably September 3rd or so, I’ll have a very hard time posting. I am dealing with finding a new place to live and hopefully moving there come September 1st, which will require me to set up internet and everything once I get there, and start getting adjusted to my new home. So from here on out, I’m going to need to devote my time and attention apartment hunting rather than responding here. I’ll try to post as much as I can, and to beat the prods, but

@Xalxe

and @the rest of you, please be lenient as I get my life in order.
Just don’t let Glowball sweep my accusations under the rug while I’m away, which is what happened in the past three days.

thunderwielder · Post Post #258 (isolation #12) » Tue Aug 23, 2011 8:36 am

glowball wrote:You know, I got through that wall up until you started personally attacking me which just isn't cool and you will be blacklisted accordingly.

Now, if I am lynched because of these weak reasons my reads don't matter. If you say they do you are lying because once I am dead they'll be quickly forgotten. I've played enough games to watch so many people go unnoticed after they are dead. Maybe they got lynched because they were scummy and you think they don't know how to play so why would you listen to their reads? RIGHT you don't. If you aren't listening to my reads NOW then you won't listen later. So no you don't deserve them, and after continually being insulted I won't give them. Lynch me if you don't like it.

I think you're confusing my case on you as a personal attack. I'm actually a pretty nice guy, and I'm sorry if I offended you in my case (maybe you could quote these "personal attacks" because I don't recall writing any--all of my attacks are based upon the game and how you've been playing throughout the day).
But if you're using this as an Appeal to Emotion, then I wouldn't be sorry. If I genuinely offended you, know that it is never my intention. This is how the game is played. I just think a lot of your actions are scummy, and I have said why.

Just saying they are weak reasons and for us to lynch you does us no good if you really are town.
And, yeah, I

definitely

would make sure to remember your reads if you turn up town, because, like I said in one of my first posts, I was criticized on having too short a memory, and intend to rectify that.

Again, I'm sorry if I actually somehow hurt your feelings, but I will not be removing my vote just because you have deigned not to finish reading my case, not respond to any of the points I made, tried to brush everything off as "weak points," and asked for us to lynch you.

I'd also like to point out that you referred to me as "scum or an idiot", and since I'm not scum I can only assume that you find me to be an idiot. But I haven't yelled at you for personally attacking me, since I realized that some particular uses of rhetoric happen quite frequently in this game and not to take them personally.

thunderwielder · Post Post #260 (isolation #13) » Tue Aug 23, 2011 8:58 am

glowball wrote:The origin of scum or idiot didn't come from me, it came from RoboThor and to respond to him I used the terms that he used as to not cause confusion. No one is asking you to remove your vote- but there were a lot of points were you just called me stupid and I didn't appreciate it. All I know is that if I am lynched for that little of reasoning and inference then you guys dont deserve my reads.

Where did I call you stupid? Now I think you're the one inferring. The only place where I even USE the word stupid is when I'm paraphrasing your own words-the stupid in the following quote is used for effect and for the general energy of how I perceive post 133. ie

Thunderwielder wrote:Post 133: Glowball says “I never said that! You think I think someone is scum just because I’ve voted for them? Wow, you shurrr are dummmbb! Oh, FOS THUNDER! Quote me next time you have an issue with things I say! Stupid!”

This is located in my Part 2 section.

Also (and this is semantics, so I'll leave it at this), RoboThor asked the question, you confirmed it. RoboThor's question was : "shouldn't you be doing this, if you think this" and your response was "You're right, I do think that". It's kind of the same thing. Repetition of words or opinions doesn't make it any less true. Just saying.

Again, I'll reiterate, you're just being even more anti-town right now, and I'm now leaning more towards you just playing the hurt feelings card as an appeal to emotions (I don't mean to offend you here, either. I'll try to be very specific in my wordings from now on, when talking about your actions and how I don't like them).

thunderwielder · Post Post #274 (isolation #14) » Tue Aug 23, 2011 3:46 pm

@Saulres, could you convince me why Maruchan is a better lynch today than Glowball? Bullet points for each is fine. I just have yet to see a concise case about Maruchan (except for Glowball's--which I feel was somewhat lacking). I can be in favour if you convince me, and if a Maruchan scum leads us to Glowball or a Glowball scum leads us to Maruchan, I will chain lynch them both, just for you.

@Amrun - rereading my case, I suppose some of my quotes could be interpreted as playstyle, but not all of them. Her response to my wall, I buy as playstyle, if only just from the "blowball" comment and response--but she still has not defended anything that I've said in there. I also don't think her case on me could be interpreted as 'playstyle'. The fact that she brought up her "suspicions" about me, and has done absolutely nothing since then (after numerous people have called her out on it) comes down to a little bit more than playstyle as well. I also feel most of my "summation spoiler" has less to do with playstyle and more to do with actions. Maybe you could elaborate for me?

P-Edit
@Glowball - even if you don't see fit to respond to any of my accusations, could you maybe re-iterate your cases for Saul and Maruchan? Or are you just going to tell me to go back and re-read? (The last question isn't rhetorical, by the way)

thunderwielder · Post Post #276 (isolation #15) » Tue Aug 23, 2011 3:49 pm

Glowball wrote:Um, the other question was yours and I don't remember what is was- if you wanted answered you need to ask it again, I'm not going through searching and quoting a question, I'm lazy.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't this one of the big reasons you got in a tizzy over Maruchan?

thunderwielder · Post Post #278 (isolation #16) » Tue Aug 23, 2011 3:56 pm

Amrun wrote:Because scumreads are only half of the game. Even if some people think your reads are useless - and I can name only one or two that do, namely thunderwielder - if you flip town, voila! Reads no longer useless.

I agree wholeheartedly with this. I would like ALL of your reads, Glow.

Amrun wrote:Also, it's totally unfair for you to ask glowball to do anything else pertaining to a Maruchan case. She made a huge one, whether or not you agree with it.

Ok, fair enough. But I was seeing if there was anything else that she had, since she seems to be quite passionate about it and I don't really understand why. That's why my last question wasn't rhetorical, but in earnest.
The other reason was to ask for a Saul case from her, which I don't think I've ever seen, but she's held on to since the first page. Then she's said, no Maruchan is scummier (which is valid because she's at least given reasons, regardless of whether or not I'm able to get on the same page), but she's still held onto that Saulres scum read--which I thought she had said previously she didn't find that scummy (which is where my initial argument with her stemmed from).

thunderwielder · Post Post #281 (isolation #17) » Tue Aug 23, 2011 4:35 pm

One more thing before I turn in for the night

Amrun wrote:I think not all of your case is playstyle, but a lot of it is just something I associate with glowball, having played with her a couple of times now. The first time I played with her, I keyed in on it too. I haven't seen too many things that concerned me except a couple of things I noted. One was her weak FoS on you. It was bad and it continues to be bad - but I can see an emotional town glowball doing this, too.

While I see the merit of this point, I would caution you from it. In my other game that

literally

just finished (one that I subbed into), one of the players made a similar point about Deity Kabuto, and him usually getting lynched the first day because of his playstyle and how it seemed scummy. We

just

lynched him, and it turns out he

was

scummy. But I also took this player's analysis at face value and trusted it until there was no other option BUT to lynch Deity, which we found out was the right option all along. So while I understand these feelings, I don't think I can give them too much weight. If you disagree that there hasn't been scummy behaviour going on, that's perfectly valid. And I also understand gut feelings and reads from previous games. But scummy behaviour needs to be treated as such, and not given a free pass because of previous scummy behaviour.

Also, unrelated (yet related), the beginning of Overlord's post interests me quite. I had forgotten the initial debate was not about town reads, it was just about giving reads on specific players--which has evolved into a situation where we're all starting to pity Glowball for not feeling secure enough to post her reads, or that they won't matter. I'm not sure how that got turned around on its head, but the proof is in the pudding.

thunderwielder · Post Post #290 (isolation #18) » Wed Aug 24, 2011 4:39 am

glowball wrote:I guess that does read a little backwards. I find it hard to see Thunder as scum, so he's obviously just bad at scumhunting. Which is what townies do and scum don't do that. Hopefully that's clearer. So there you go, another "read" just got to look closely

While I appreciate you now finding me as town, why is it that I'm no longer under a Finger of Suspicion from you? Where did that big change come from?

Or is it that you're hoping I'll back off if you stop suspecting me?

You still haven't quoted from before where I misrepresented you, which was your initial cause for suspicion against me.
You still haven't given us your case on Saulres.
You still haven't answered my previous question about Maruchan (or are you just purposefully avoiding that one too).
You still haven't responded to anything in my case about you (other than--it's weak, and just leaving it at that)
You still haven't given your reads on Nobody Special and Supreme Overlord (why do you automatically assume that they are town?--I'm getting this from your "I don't feel the need to give out town reads" statement).

I would like that you maybe address three of the above five points. Is that too much to ask for? You don't even have to answer all of them, just

do something

.

Also, welcome Hoppster and MrTrow. I look forward to your input on all that's happened thus far. Thanks for subbing in, guys!

thunderwielder · Post Post #292 (isolation #19) » Wed Aug 24, 2011 5:15 am

You still haven't responded to anything in my case about you (other than--it's weak, and just leaving it at that)

I'll retract this partially, because you have responded, agreed that you can see where I'm coming from, but that it all falls down to playstyle. I'll change my question here to having you maybe elaborate and defend why my case is all playstyle, and none of it therefore has any value.

thunderwielder · Post Post #302 (isolation #20) » Wed Aug 24, 2011 8:31 am

glowball wrote:

As for your points, some of them have been addressed AND I never promised a case on Saulres I actually recall saying I don't think he deserved a formal case because his scumminess was obvious. The point is that I have addressed the case you made, maybe not to your liking but it's been addressed YOU OBVIOUSLY ARE NOT READING MY POSTS.

Look at this post, call yourself a hypocrite, realize that not only I have asked for your case on Saulres (as has Amrun), Realize that in order for me to stop suspecting you as scum you're going to need to give your reads and provide cases for people other than "well, it's obvious, huh duuhhh", Realize that partially addressing ONE of my points (which was later corrected) does not constitute as "some of them have been addressed," Realize that you're not really doing anything to scum hunt

@other towners, realize that she's not doing anything to scum hunt, and I don't understand how everyone just seems to be giving her a free pass

, and realize that you're going to actually have to provide examples to everything I've been asking you in order for me to get off your back (not just trying to brush it under the rug).
If you decide to post another one sentence response, then just rinse and repeat the above.

@ everyone in the town

other than Amrun, Supreme Overlord and Saulres (or anyone else that responded to my case--actually, Amrun, you can explain this too, but I think you already have), can you explain to me why Glowball's actions are pro-town and are moving us forward towards our goal of lynching scum? Or are they scummy? And if so, why are you not voting for Glowball. Is there a scummier option? Why? It's pretty evident I'm getting really focused on Glowball right now, and I'm starting to get really annoyed with her lack of responses and contributions to the town, so I would appreciate feedback and another option to consider for today--BACKED BY SOLID REASONING, not just a whim and a prayer and a statement that "so-and-so" is obviously scum and doesn't need explaning. Treat me like I'm a six year old, if you wouldn't mind. Thanks a bundle.

As for other lynches, the only other person on my radar right now is Nobody Special. When is his V/LA over again? But even with being on V/LA, somehow every time he posts, he gets just a little bit scummier (the not remembering his only scum read--one that I even re-emphasized in my big shit wall, is suspect to me).
Right now, I really only want to vote for Glowball, but I can envision a Nobody Special lynch. But only if everyone seems to disagree with my Glowball lynch. Again, please answer my above question. I would reaaaallly appreciate it.

thunderwielder · Post Post #308 (isolation #21) » Wed Aug 24, 2011 8:59 am

Everything that Glowball (which is too much to quote) wrote:
[...]
rah rah rah
[...]

I give up.
I am hereby giving up trying to get you to pull your weight for the town and resign myself to a stone cold wall of nothingness forever emanating from your slot (my hypocrite comment was directed at you not reading my posts, where I rephrased one of my questions, yet you played the hurt card ONCE AGAIN, and claimed I wasn't reading any of your posts, when I would really really truly like to see where you're coming from).

I don't understand why you're not trying to convince me you're town. I don't understand why you refuse to provide a case on one of your top two scumspects. I don't understand why you keep pushing opinions under the rug and aren't answering questions (such as the one I posted on the top of page 12 about Maruchan's questions that you "purposefully" forgot to answer). I don't understand anything about your play or your "playstyle" or why any of it is beneficial to the town or why ANY town player would play like you are playing right now.
I just can't wrap my head around any of it, and I'm pretty much fed up with trying.

To RoboThor,
You're right. It seems nobody agrees with my evidence. But the Nobody Special wagon and the Glowball wagon are currently tied... Howsabout if Nobody Special gets up to 4 votes, I'll vote for him, and if Glowball gets up to 4 votes, you vote for her, and we do the other one tomorrow? Ja?

thunderwielder · Post Post #314 (isolation #22) » Wed Aug 24, 2011 12:58 pm

Why is Saulres an acceptable lynch!?!?!? This is where "cases" and "reads" and "evidence" comes

just a little bit

into the game...

If you're going off information, there is none to be had with Saulres, because the bandwagon (which you joined and gave little weight to) never had time to develop before it dissipated into nothingness. Therefore, how much information can you get from a Saulres lynch?

By pushing a Saulres lynch, when you really have nothing to support that case, and saying it's the one of the two ONLY lynches you'll go for, without having a single piece of evidence other than supposition is crazy talk.

The way I look at it (the

only

way I can perceive it) is that you're a scum trying to make sure you're not tunnelling and providing two suspects is a good way to show that you are looking for scum in two different places, but your first suspect is arbitrary and based upon

nothing

--yet you're sticking to it like glue, since you've dug yourself into a hole of sensitivity and stubborness that is masquerading itself as "playstyle."
Even before, EVEN WHEN YOU WERE VOTING HIM, you argued that you didn't find him scummier than Maruchan--which is why I brought that up in the first place, which is another thing that you quashed by saying "Page 6=inconsequential".

thunderwielder · Post Post #316 (isolation #23) » Wed Aug 24, 2011 2:12 pm

glowball wrote:I thought you weren't talking to me

Really?? *sigh*

Could someone else maybe re-iterate my questions for Glowball so she might think about participating? Since she seems to have some ridiculous vendetta against me. Why? Oh, for calling her out on contradictions and scummy behaviour and evidence that doesn't make sense. You're right, I definitely shouldn't have done that. Shame on me.

thunderwielder · Post Post #320 (isolation #24) » Wed Aug 24, 2011 2:37 pm

glowball wrote:You are being mean and sarcastic again.

For the love of everything I believe in, I'm really not trying to be. I'm just trying to play a game, and your constant avoidance of playing something I thought we all were here to do is starting to really get on my nerves. Like I said before--IT IS NEVER MY INTENTION TO HURT FEELINGS--and personally I think you're a little too close to the issue to judge whether or not my comments are mean. They are sarcastic, oh yes, quite, but not mean.

I would like to just re-iterate what I perceive to be Glowball's strategy. I feel she is currently sticking to her guns to support a "playstyle" defence against any earlier contradictions and evidence that was brought up against her. By reverting back to this "wounded state", she's doing to things 1)driving me up the freaking wall and 2)making everyone focus on this aspect of her playstyle rather than any of the evidence that I brought about before.
I can't see a town playing this way. If I were town, and had done this, and felt I was digging myself into a hole, I would start explaining things up the wazoo so that I didn't screw the town over.

If I were

scum

, playing in this fashion, I would probably still try to explain things--unless I didn't have explanation, in which case I would try and turn the tables using my emotions, and get into a ridiculous argument long enough for everyone to forget why I had received votes in the first place , and at the same time discredit my main attacker by getting him into a pointless argument that makes everyone devalue his opinion and his scumhunting capabilities.

-I would really not like this situation to occur.

I'm going to now take a break from Glowball, and maybe from the game for a day or so (I'll be searching for places to live on Friday Saturday and probably Sunday) I hope to be back here Monday. Maybe my urge to throw my computer at the wall will have lessened by then. Until Monday, however, I'm going to officially put myself on

V/LA

because I know I won't have time to post this weekend, and I think it's better for my health not to touch this game tomorrow. I'll try my damndest to post on Monday (and if I can, during the weekend, but most likely no posting, just keeping up to date), but if I don't, please be lenient with me, because I've probably got bigger things on my mind. I'll say

V/LA until Tuesday

just to be safe. I'll make sure I can come back and vote, if the Nobody Special wagon takes on more steam than the Glowball wagon.

PEdit - But I agree with Supreme Overlord that I would like to give NS time to participate in the game. Maybe his active lurking and no content has really just been a result of not being here.

thunderwielder · Post Post #323 (isolation #25) » Wed Aug 24, 2011 3:32 pm

thunderwielder wrote:
Glowball wrote:Um, the other question was yours and I don't remember what is was- if you wanted answered you need to ask it again, I'm not going through searching and quoting a question, I'm lazy.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't this one of the big reasons you got in a tizzy over Maruchan?

And, if you're listening to me, I would also maybe like to see a response to this question I asked you as well.

Goodnight everyone, and have a great weekend.

thunderwielder · Post Post #345 (isolation #26) » Thu Aug 25, 2011 11:54 am

glowball wrote:THEN the whole bit about walls being a STRONG TELL- I NEVER EVER said that, and I would challenge him to find a post where I did. He is putting words in my mouth and passing off assumptions as truth..

Challenge accepted. The following quote took me about five seconds to find, FYI.

glowball wrote:Okay, to address the adverse views on me not reading crap walls... we will just have to agree to disagree.

It actually has very little to do with my eyes or hating to read them, it has to do with the fact that people who use META to as an excuse to write walls are just trying to uphold that meta and it may actually have nothing to do with them being town or scum it's just meta for them.
Then there are the scumz who write long walls to look like they are contributing- and like I said I can tell by half way through whether this is the case or not.
The point- I am not going to read something if you don't make it a point to show me it's worth reading. I've see two types of walls so far:
1. Walls of back and forth arguments with quotes taking up half of the wall...
that's okay if you are responding, I get it- but you guys can definitely make an effort to neaten things up

2. Walls of commentary stretched out beyond belief.

I doubt that everyone writing these walls is scum
, which is why I said what I said...

Also, Saulres isn't necessarily newbtown- people thought the same thing of me in my newbie game. YES, Saulres may be new but you'd be surprised how much newbtown and newbscum can be confused. All that is certain is that he is new.

I'm still on V/LA, just popping in(because this freaking game is always on my brain), but

@Mod, I think you're confusing me with Supreme Overlord. It was me who announced the V/LA until tuesday

(The above quote is bolded by me.)
In response to Glowball's "purple quotes of me misrepping her".
-- The first one is a question.... All you had to do is say "nope". Also, this issue has already been addressed by others, and pretty sure if you have a vote on somebody the implication is... well, we've covered that one already.
--The second purple quote is also not a misrepresentation. See bolded one and bolded two. They kind of go hand in hand. If they don't, please explain that to me. If you feel like talking to me again. (And if so, why don't you answer that other question I asked you--this is the third time I'm asking, by the way.) Followed by bolded three, which says "I doubt everyone"... does this mean: A) "you doubt that every single person writing these walls is scum, and therefore must be town or null?" or does this mean: B) "I doubt that everyone here is scum, {implication=I also doubt that every single one of them is town}"? If we go with option 1, why aren't they falling into the category of scum writing walls to blend in, since "half of those walls is commentary stretched out beyond belief?" If we go with option 2, then there must be some scum writing walls, and since really the only walls being created at that point were from myself and Maruchan (not Saulres), why weren't you using it as a tell--> since you VEHEMENTLY believed, AT THAT POINT, that Maruchan and Saulres were both scummy (well, I guess you still do) and that I have a Finger of Suspicion on me (Therefore, I'm leaning to be scummy)-->which I'm pretty sure you still do.
------- ALSO, maybe you can explain to me why none of your reads have changed since then, even though there are definitely more than four people playing this game.
-------- ALSO maybe you can explain to me why your read of me has shifted from

glowball wrote:I guess that does read a little backwards. I find it hard to see Thunder as scum, so he's obviously just bad at scumhunting. Which is what townies do and scum don't do that. Hopefully that's clearer. So there you go, another "read" just got to look closely

So your read here would be Town on me? Because that's a read, a read doesn't count if it's just "null" and we had to fight with you for days in order to get it.

Anyway from that to

I have to keep going back and forth on his alignment because why would scum pour so much effort into a mislynch then it's on their shoulders, but I am an easy target since people always think I am scum

That's weird... immediately after I go on V/LA, your "read" on me changes from "town" to "null"/"town or scum" (tell me if I'm getting this wrong). Seems pretty convenient that you start actually addressing things now that the main person pulling for your lynch is out of town and out of the picture...
--And, apparently you're NOT an easy target, because no one is getting on board with your lynch. As I last checked (which was about 20 minutes ago) your wagon is losing steam to Nobody Special and Maruchan! If that isn't a scum appeal to emotions, I don't know what is.*

* I understand that Glowball seems to use a lot of appealing to emotions, but this one seems a little different to me, since it really isn't based upon anything that's been happening in the game, yet she's still whining about how much of an easy target she is and how everyone thinks she's scum, when I'm pretty sure it's myself and Supreme Overlord that are the only ones talking about it. (also, just take a look at how hard she's working to discredit me in her latest post--maybe I'm overreacting, but there seem to be a lot more of "he's twisting everything so you'll vote me out" pleas than usual)

One last thing before I go

Ask all you want, but Maruchan finds Saulres way more scummy than I do but you aren't asking him for a case.

1) Exaggeration. I'm pretty sure Maruchan is not laying down the "I'M ONLY VOTING FOR TWO PEOPLE AND THAT'S IT! RAH RAH RAH!" card (Maruchan, please correct me if I'm wrong).
2) There's a bit of truth in this statement, Maruchan, I would like to hear your case on Saul. BUT, I'm hesitant about asking, because I'd like to see if Glowball can actually come up with reasons why Saul is scummy and vocalize them before she has someone to parrot. Hey Maruchan, can you promise Glowball that you'll provide your case for her, after she provides yours? Glowball, would that work for you? Or are you still going to say it's really super duper obvious why he's scummy? --

And if that's the case, why should we all start putting blame on Maruchan for all these obvious reasons that he seems to be the only one to grasp

Again, you're being a hypocrite. AGAIN, you're contradicting yourself.
--Glowball is playing the "Don't look at me, LOOK OVER THERE!" card. We have two possible scenarios

1)

Saulres is really super duper scummy for really obvious reasons, therefore Glowball doesn't have to give a case, but we should definitely all focus on Maruchan for the exact same reason (of not giving a case).
OR

2)

Saulres isn't really super duper scummy, and although Glowball suspects him a bit, Maruchan suspects him waaaaaaay more, and is therefore super duper scummy because of it.

You can't have your cake and eat it too.

But while we're on the subject, Maruchan, was your only reason for staying away from the conversation a test to see who's the most townie? What would have happened if Saulres (who is your top suspect) pointed that out? Would he automatically have become townie?
I'm not sure I completely buy your reasonings. Are you sure it wasn't because Glowball and I were starting to overtake the thread with our argument and you used that to hide behind and avoid drawing further attention to yourself? Come on, now, you can tell the truth..

PEdit, I agree with Lane on the Maruchan aspect.
I don't agree with him on the "me being a douche" aspect. Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree there.

@Lane, at least I'm pressuring my reads, and I'm committed to following them through. How can you argue that Glowball's refusal to play the game counts as town points for her? When all of her arguments for the past little while (her last post notwithstanding... yet somewhat withstanding) "Nope. No. No way. Nu-uh. Give you my reads, help find scum, help figure out relationships, why would I do a thing like that? No. Be quiet. Pity me. I'm sensitive. Don't pressure me so hard, this game is exhausting. Etc." How does that serve to aid anyone other than herself in a self-preservation type manner?
Couldn't it be as easily a scumtell, that she got caught spouting off false accusations (I'm talking about in reference to me in particular), and now she's reverting to a "playstyle" defence to get her out of the hot water?

thunderwielder · Post Post #347 (isolation #27) » Thu Aug 25, 2011 11:57 am

EBWODP

personally if i was glowball i would stop responding to thunder

She DID, about three pages ago--hence my frustrated and enraged attitude. I would check your timeline for these things.
But it's cool how you defend her and then jump on to her only two scum reads. Good to know.

PEdit, No worries Xalxe, thanks for being an amazing Mod thus far. You rock my world.

thunderwielder · Post Post #357 (isolation #28) » Thu Aug 25, 2011 2:46 pm

Oh my goodness.... I am so confused right now. I don't understand any of these reactions.

@Lane, to answer your confusion, I think you have a timeline issue again. Or you misread my last post. Are you referring to my quote, saying she hadn't yet posted a Maruchan case? Because the quote you quoted came after that. I was stepping again back in time to re-iterate my previous issues about her jumping on me with suspicion after I asked her questions.

@Glowball... I seriously don't get you. I don't understand at all. I don't understand why you're getting so furious all the time.

No. The adjective "strong" was mine. Is that really the only reason why you were voting for me? Or suspecting me? Because I added the word "strong"? Did you really get all in a huff, all those pages ago, over the word "strong"? In what I quoted and bolded, are you not suggesting that scum fill walls with unnecessary content in order to blend in? And that you are able to tell halfway through the wall, if that is the case? And that there were people creating walls in those first pages that were filled with 'unnecessary commentary'?

I don't get what I'm missing...

I can't understand why I keep signing on, hoping to see interesting developments, but I just see rage and Glowball shouting that she's blacklisting me. For trying to scumhunt. For throwing myself into the game, pressuring reads, and trying to get to the truth of people's comments. Her rage has almost made me unvote her, just because I don't want to keep dealing with it. I guess that's the strategy. It's only my stubborness that keeps me on, because I can't shake the feeling that I'm right.

Am I the only one who finds this strange? Am I really so blantantly misguided in this read, or in EVERY SINGLE POINT that I bring forward, that I am branded as a liar, or an idiot that should be blacklisted? Do Glowball's reactions to me seem just a teeny tiny bit outrageous to anyone else?

And just so we can progress, when I come back on Monday/Tuesday, if there is an overwhelming response that I'm off my rocker, and that nobody wants to vote Glowball out, and that everything I have said is completely and utterly unreasonable to EVER SAY in a Mafia game, I shall pull back and never touch the subject again (except maybe with a big fat I told you so when we get to the end of the game). I fear this is leaning towards being an all out flame shit fest, and I really don't want that to happen. If everyone could chime in, so that when I get back I can see if everyone seems to be supporting the same notions as Glowball and now Lane, and I will never state a case towards Glowball for the rest of this game (and for any other game too, since I'm blacklisted!)

thunderwielder · Post Post #444 (isolation #29) » Sun Aug 28, 2011 4:39 pm

Hi guys! I'm back from my weekend trip life planning thing a little early, so I'll try to post, because chances are I'll be unavailable during September 1st (and possible August 31st) due to moving and more house hunting.

Okay, first things first

@Glow This post is another one of those questions that you didn't answer. If you feel like answering it now, since we haven't talked for a while. If not, well, I've resigned myself to that too. But just so you know, you haven't really been answering all the questions asked because you're too busy getting defensive.

RoboThor wrote:@Thunder - the confusion pit yawns before you and you keep trying to spelunk down it. Everything I've written above is what you've gotten out of GB thus far, and I do not foresee you getting anything more out of there, do you? Let's drop the pushing - because at this stage it's annoying, going in circles, and not helping anything. If you want to press for a policy lynch via 'annoying refusal to give reads' than do so, but otherwise I'd rather see the case drop dead.

You're right. Hence me dropping the issue. I DO want a policy lynch though. And I shall give you a brief bullet point list of why I think Glowball is scum, rather than just a really anti-town town (which I think you asked for later on--if it wasn't you, well here you go whoever asked)

-- She's been ignoring a lot of posts and points and questions. Now that could go either way, but I was looking through her wiki (where she talks about how blacklisting is stupid, by the by->thought that was pretty amusing) and in her first scum game, at the wrap up somebody says this post. Seems like similar behaviour here.
--- The whole, refusing to give reads thing.
--- The whole jumping on me for what I consider nothing (this is a grey area actually, not necessarily scum for that, BUT) blowing things out of proportion is scummy for me, plus the constant referrals to "everyone insulting her" when I don't think ANYONE has (if anything, I'll admit I've come the closest--but when others have told her she's being unreasonable, she immediately jumps to the "well, you must be insulting me too--harumph!" card, and so far it's making people back off.
--- Plus, yes I would like a policy lynch on her. I find her to be very unreasonable, and I'm having a hard time tearing my eyes away from her. I consider myself to be a pretty decent scum hunter, and I just can't shake this feeling. And if, on the rare chance that I'm misreading all of her behaviour and startling behaviour, it'll at least give

all of us

ME a break from constant arguments and having to tip-toe around with accusations or questions for fear of them being misinterpreted or her being "insulted."

That's my piece. I really wanted to include the previous game, because I think it's very valid to what's going on here.

Other than that, if we don't lynch Glowball, it appears to me we have two options: Mothrax or Maruchan (are they tied now?

@Mod, vote count if you don't mind?

Thanks!)

Maruchan's biggest suspicious activity for me was his "lurk to see who points it out gambit." There was a lot of heat being passed between Glowball and myself, and it's possible he was using that as a cover to take the heat off him. That being said it a)didn't really work, since he's at least still tied to be the lead wagon and b)I'm actually somewhat satisfied with his answers to my questions.
Maruchan, though, seeing as though you're on the hot seat, I really would like to hear your Saulres case (because Glowball is definitely not going to give us hers--if she sheeps on yours, I'll vote for her immediately... oh wait...), since you are in the hot seat, and I would hate for valuable reads to go unaswered for.

I'm not comfotable with a Maruchan lynch today simply because Glowball is on that wagon. As is Lane (because if Glowball's scum, I'm pretty freaking sure he's her partner, although what scum would defend their partner so outright... eh, could go both ways).

So, if I had to choose between those two (provided no other options present themselves) I would vote Mothrax. Couple of reasons.
1) Nobody Special's activity, supported by this quote from RoboThor

@Mothrax - really? Lurk is town meta for NS? I had no idea. I've seen him lurk as scum, but never as town, so...y'know, bring that case on big boy.

I’ll trust this read. I’m not familiar with Nobody’s Special’s play, but I’d like to hear a response from Mothrax on this. Can you prove that Nobody special lurks more town than he does scum?
2)

Mothrax has been taking his sweet time reading up on the game

Okay, I'll strike that. I didn't realize that it hadn't been so long since he replaced in. And I understand social lives. My worry is that he'll be taking his sweet time all the way until the deadline in order to give himself an extra day to live and prepare.

[Oh, and Mothrax, your initial read of post 13 is absolutely correct. I figured if I could make a random vote that was based upon something in the game, it would lead to more than "rah rah rah, your name is funny, vote:you". And post 14 was buddying--but only because I just finished a game with Thor where Robo modded. So I'm quite fond of them both, because out of the three games I've played, it was my favourite. I think RoboThor (Thor head) addresses this later on but maybe you haven't gotten there yet.]

Unfortunately

it's my bias against Glowball that's leading my vote away from Maruchan and on to Mothrax (if I have to choose between the two). I would

really really

(wow, two reallys, he must be serious..) just like to lynch Glowball, just so everyone here is focused on contribution (or fake-contributing--which is easier to catch than NON-contributing).

In other news, I'm curious as to why Auckmind isn't really posting anything. If we're looking at active lurkers, Auckmind is kind of being the worst.

PEdit - Auckmind is no longer the worst since he's supporting my wagon. Carry on gentlemen. But still, he has posted minimal content. I would watch out for him later on down the line.

thunderwielder · Post Post #445 (isolation #30) » Sun Aug 28, 2011 4:45 pm

EBWODP

glowball wrote:
Maruchan wrote:
glowball wrote:I do not line up lynches. PERIOD. I am not going to tell you what one flip means over the other until the next day phase if I make it. The information you ask for is information scum asks for to assess their kills at night. "Oh well she said that if Saulres was scum then I wasn't so it's ookay to keep her around or let's WIFOM" NO. It sets up for something bad this early.

did you even read my post?

I don't give a fuck about your answers.
I was trying to trap you into saying what I said so I could point to it and say you said it.

I don't give a fuck about the flips, I am just showing that you're whole "MAYBE they aren't a scum team DEPENDING ON FLIPS" is a load of BS.

You were trying to trap me into saying something? How is that not scummy? You wanted me to be a diversion later down the line? GODDAMNIT NOODLES! I hate Thunder but you are screaming scumz

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Maruchan

Last one, I swear.
1) You hate me, that's cute.
2) Am I the only one who sees that Maruchan was explaining a scum hunting strategy? And that this is the flimsiest reason to get back on a wagon? I would have bought it more after the comment from RoboThor(?) saying to vote who she suspected the most... but she didn't then... and maybe NOW she's realized she should get on a wagon. To save Mothrax for later on? To actually be pressuring her "reads"? I'm really not sure of why. This quote just made me laugh, so I figured I should ask if I was alone in that thinking.

thunderwielder · Post Post #482 (isolation #31) » Mon Aug 29, 2011 5:02 am

I'm rereading the thread, currently on page 10, probably going to stop there for the day, but first in response to Saulres just now. I also said I wasn't a huge fan of your case, because I don't think the scum would link themselves together so forcefully. Also, Amrun is very town for me, because we seem to be on the same wavelength with a lot of things (even though she's now disagreeing with my glowball case again--tsk).
This brings me to my second point, I agree wholeheartedly that Lane is pretty scummy, and rereading through the thread (or half) has done nothing to quash these notions. If anything, they've been amplified. He has a very brusque attitude and has tried to quash conversations (some good and some bad). I don't like his previous "I'm town-discuss" comment, because that again does nothing to start conversation, and it just leaves us with a simple sentence, an idea that a person is claiming town right off the bat, and with really nothing to discuss.
In regards to Nobody Special... that too has been atrocious and standing out in my re-read. There was so much that he could have said, but never said anything. It's terribly difficult to get a read on him like that, but I would have to say it leans much more towards scum than town. I don't think he posted content once.
@Mothrax, you really really need to speak up with a butload of content right about now. You have a lot to make up for.

And finally, I have one more piece of proof that Glowball's reactions to my questions (purple leading questions, they have been referred to) are more likely to be falsified rather than legitimate.
Post 92

Yeah Page 4 doesn't need all these lengthy posts, it kind of makes me feel like scum are overloading to look like they have more content than they do.

This was a quote I've been thinking about and trying to find, but I didn't until my re-read. Is this not her claiming her suspicions about scum writing walls? Yes, Glowball, you don't say the words "strong tell" but you've also been spouting off (quite recently) that nobody is reading through the lines (I will quote you on that if you start again with an uproar of how I'm misrepresenting you).
That's it, I'll drop my case dead here. If you all feel I might be whipping a dead horse, please let me know. I just thought this might be new information that some people hadn't considered.
I would still very much like a Glowball lynch because I believe it to be the right call. I would really like Mothrax to contribute a lot and maybe clear his slot's name (it's going to take a lot of work, because NS did Nothing productive at all). Amrun, I think you're pretty bang on with the whole Lane situation, but at this point, I don't know if you're going to get six people to vote with you. If you had to choose between Glowball and Mothrax (as those seem to be now the leading wagons) who would you choose? (You've stated that you believe Glowball to be town again... does this mean you'd vote for Mothrax?)

thunderwielder · Post Post #483 (isolation #32) » Mon Aug 29, 2011 5:04 am

EBWODP

Oh, and where the hell is Mr. Trow? He's lurking more than Auckmind, and done nothing to advance whatever slot he's been in. I also think it might be over 72 hours since he posted,

@Mod Could we maybe have a prod for Mr. Trow?

Mr. Trow, what do you think of everyone who has votes on them? A short 3 sentence response to each, and whether you think the votes are justified and/or are right would be greatly appreciated.

thunderwielder · Post Post #490 (isolation #33) » Mon Aug 29, 2011 9:20 am

@Lane, do you realize you just called Amrun crazy for having a gut read on Glowball as town, which is the same stance you're taking? That's how it reads to me, anyway. You can't call Amrun crazy for taking the same stance on Glowball as you have taken. Even if Amrun's case on you is based entirely on gut, you just seem like you're trying to discredit her here, but you're contradicting yourself in doing so.

@Saul, in case you missed it, because it seems like you might have from your last post, I've restated that I wasn't the biggest fan of your connection case between Glowball/Maruchan/Amrun, although I am a fan of your vote on Glowball. (So you're not operating in a completely town-approved vacuum on that one.) Did you not see my previous post? It wasn't that long a wall to warrant not reading it...

thunderwielder · Post Post #492 (isolation #34) » Mon Aug 29, 2011 11:07 am

No worries dude.

And even though I'm not a super big fan of your connecting case, don't let that stop you from pushing it. But a question for you, what happens if one of those three flips town? Does your entire case fall apart?

thunderwielder · Post Post #495 (isolation #35) » Mon Aug 29, 2011 1:21 pm

Maruchan, I'm still waiting for your case on Saulres. You said it would be posted today. I don't think you can post vague accusations until your case is completed. Just saying. I would have preferred a case rather than a single sentence.

And Mothrax, what time zone are you in? I'm looking forward to your post as well. You should probably vote for Glowball after it. She IS tied with you after all...

thunderwielder · Post Post #504 (isolation #36) » Mon Aug 29, 2011 3:41 pm

Mothrax, I tried to sum up a short bullet point list about Glowball recently - skim my posts the last few pages to find it. (Also, I don't think I was looking for the word. That was probably Lane. I think it was Lane, from my memory, but adamantly is one of my favourite words--probably because it reminds me of Wolverine).

Amrun, I wish I could, but although I find Lane somewhat scummy, I find Glowball really scummy. And the really takes over the somewhats everytime.

thunderwielder · Post Post #530 (isolation #37) » Tue Aug 30, 2011 3:06 am

Maruchan wrote:
Just a quick comment I've felt like making on the whole "Maruchan playing to win" topic.

I am playing to win. Playing To Save My Ass, is NOT the same as playing to win.

I can die, and still win, as long as my faction does. So I feel that as long as my life is spent productively finding scum, rather than in town v town shitstorms, that I am playing to win.

I think this quote might disprove your Maruchan theory, Mothrax. Well, actually, you tell me. I personally can read it both ways. Does it support it or fight against the Maruchan defending=scum? I'm still interested in the Maruchan cases, because of his 'lurking to find town tells' ploy, but other than that, I agree with Amrun (I'm not seeing too much of Maruchan's scumminess either). You should totally keep your vote on Glowball.

Also, Moth

Maruchan and thunderwielder are going after Glowball.

I think you might be confusing Maruchan with Supreme Overlord. He's the one who's had my back with the Glowball case, and we both are having very similar responses to things, whereas Maruchan's vote is still on you.

I comented on what I saw fit to comment on.

Okay, fair, but this sort of rubs me the wrong way. There was A LOT more that you could have commented on, but instead you've relieved yourself of responsibility by calling it "shite" and therefore not needed to comment on seemingly a heck of a lot of the game. Seems like a little bit of a cop-out to me. It also seems to be following in the same vein as your predecessor with his "the last fifteen pages have been elephants and mashed potatoes", which (although quite a hilarious metaphore) does nothing to advance us through this game. THAT's why he was under pressure, fyi, because of his active non-contributing--not necessarily because he didn't post in the thread a lot.

Amrun, (I'm taking this from your comments) does this mean, between Glow and Mothrax, that you'd prefer to vote Mothrax?

If that is the case, we'll have a 5/5 tie for leading wagon. Personally, I think they are both quite scummy, so I think now the question becomes who will be more valuable in Day two. Right? We have to think about the long haul, and what will help us catch either the final scumbuddy, or other scum. What will Glowball produce during day two? What will Mothrax contribute during day two? If both of them are scum (or if both of them turn out to be town), what's the best possible scenario for getting information? Mothrax's reads failed a little to live up to my expectations, but he DID just replace in and had to catch up on a lot quickly. Glowball is adamant about not giving her reads, since she says that we won't trust them anyway regardless of her flip. I'm just thinking aloud here, and perhaps my bias towards Glowball (and her behaviour towards me in particular) is swaying my hand, but in this case, I would rather keep Mothrax around, considering he is contributing more. Maybe this comes down to policy lynching, I don't know. I guess that's what I am suggesting and leaning towards (if I'm interpreting 'policy lynching' correctly). But I would rather go into day two with a scum who's trying to look town rather than a scum who's trying not to give any reads but is obstinately sticking to one frame of mind and refusing to delve into others. Of course, that could be useful, since it might clear Saul and Maruchan if Glowball flips scum, but then again she's already fessed up to bussing hardcore early in the game, so I can see Saul's case on a Glowball/Maruchan team, but I'm not sure I buy it.
Also, now that Mothrax is voting for Glowball, I suspect that Glowball will throw her vote on Mothrax. It only makes sense to do so. Then again, I don't understand Glowball at all, so who knows what'll happen.

Anyway, thoughts on what I've just written? We only have three days, which, yes is a lot of time, but not when only three or four people are active everyday.

thunderwielder · Post Post #531 (isolation #38) » Tue Aug 30, 2011 3:09 am

Should have hit preview.

me wrote:Also, Moth

Maruchan and thunderwielder are going after Glowball.
I think you might be confusing Maruchan with Supreme Overlord. He's the one who's had my back with the Glowball case, and we both are having very similar responses to things, whereas Maruchan's vote is still on you.

So you did mean Maruchan? Sorry, I misinterpreted things.

thunderwielder · Post Post #537 (isolation #39) » Tue Aug 30, 2011 7:32 am

Because we DO have a deadline and we need to lynch somebody. A No Lynch is not an acceptable option. It just gives the scum a free kill.
If you want Maruchan lynched, make a stronger case and get everyone over to your side. This is where your refusal to participate in discussion has led you. You've given your case, but you have failed to listen to people's responses to it, and now that wagon is all but disbanded. Why is Mothrax an incorrect lynch? This is where a stance on Nobody Special would have been helpful, instead of not giving your reads earlier in the game. I was more prepared to listen to you then than I am now, but I would still like your opinion, because we CAN use it later on.

thunderwielder · Post Post #538 (isolation #40) » Tue Aug 30, 2011 7:34 am

EBWODP

And, yeah, if you were town, it would make sense to throw your vote on Mothrax, because you would know you were town and you would be trying to have town NOT lynch a townie (aka you in this particular scenario).

thunderwielder · Post Post #541 (isolation #41) » Tue Aug 30, 2011 8:51 am

@Saul, yeah, I guess I should explain that a bit better.

I guess this outlook comes from me seeing both of them as scummy. Now

IF Glowball were town

(I'll strike that and put myself in that position, since that's where I'm thinking from). if I was in Glowball's position and I was a townie (or at least pretending to be one), I would want to move my vote to the other wagon since I KNOW I'm a townie and I wouldn't want to sit idly by while the town mislynched me. Therefore it makes sense to try and lynch someone who's alignment that I'm unsure of, rather than my own townie alignment. That's where I was coming from with the statement you quoted. (Have I explained myself better, Saul?)
Instead, she's been sticking to her guns and keeping with the two reads she's had all game.
I'd understand that if she found Mothrax to be town, I would definitely understand her vote placement. But she hasn't said one way or the other, nor has she bothered to find out any other information that might be able to clarify a read of this leading wagon for her.
I guess I would be trying harder to save my own skin and make sure there is a better lynch than a definite mislynch (from a townie Glowball's perspective).

I don't want Mothrax lynched over Glowball, which is why my vote is on her and has continued to be on her since a heck of a long time ago.

But I guess I see your argument, Saul, about if she moved her vote it could be for scum or town. Both are in the vein of self-preservation. I just hoped it would be obvious which type of self-preservation was being implemented, which could further aid the case that she's scum OR that perhaps Mothrax was a better lynching candidate. I'm just trying to figure out which of the two lynches would best benefit the town. Obviously I think a Glowball lynch would, but I'd like to be able to convince people of that. It's no good having a read if you can't convince people about it, or don't try to convince everyone of it. That's my thinking.

thunderwielder · Post Post #549 (isolation #42) » Tue Aug 30, 2011 11:47 am

lane0168 wrote:
Amrun wrote:

lane0168 wrote:if glowball suspects lane then its not much of a story about me defending glowball. i dont think two scum would so closely link up lol. and as far as defending? not defending. i do think glowball is town. saying why she is town would be defending her. trying to move on from the fact that glowball isnt giving reads is entirely different. the pressure went on for fucking pages. what dont you see about this?
thats not defense tyvw. amrun is full of bs. what is your case on me even? gut read again? like a glowball gut town read? you crazy.

response to supreme overlord forthcoming, and i'm assuming that i can quote myself from the game to make my case using my own words, correct supreme overlord?

P.S. - I never said it was defense. That was someone else. Stop misrepping. Also, calling me crazy is not enough to discredit me. Saying my case is gut is not enough either, since everyone reading the thread knows it is not gut. I have detailed and talked about several things you've done that I have found scummy. That's how the game works.

THUNDERWIELDER, GLOWBALL, PUT ASIDE YOUR DIFFERENCES AND VOTE FOR LANE PLLLZZZ

the defense was directed at whoever else the rest of the paragraph was directed at. so you stop misrepping. i didnt say you said it was defense. the things you've talked about me being scum is not a very good case. that much is evident. you are tunnel visioned and i am sorry. what were they? my anti town mistake, as others have stated. oh lols my distraction with my first two posts of the game that ruined the conversation that was already over. shoot i cant remember what else there was. can you remind me? obviously you never even read my responses or do not understand them because if you did you'd realize why your case is false.

Lane, every time you do something that's mildly productive, you come out again with one of these posts filled with sarcasm and defensiveness that makes you seem scummy to me. You should probably stop doing that.

I would vote lane over mothrax (but Glow over Lane). I still think we should give him a bit more time to respond. Maybe he'll pop up with a super duper townie read. I would just hate lynching someone who might have valuable things to say.

thunderwielder · Post Post #571 (isolation #43) » Wed Aug 31, 2011 3:21 am

@Mod, I think there are five people voting Mothrax, because now Amrun is added to the list

I too would like a flip. What will we get more information with--a Glowball or a Mothrax lynch (or even Maruchan, I guess, but with two days, I don't see that as a viable option)? Who will be the most use tomorrow, Glowball or Mothrax? I'm now kind of on the fence. Glowball is participating a lot more, and seems to have calmed down and relaxed (which is even MORE odd to me, since she was so upset over two votes, and now she seems to be fine with five votes), and my head is going nutso trying to work her out. Mothrax has promised more in depth reads, and I'm very interested to see them. It's taking him a bit of time (relative to the amount of deadline we have left) so I'm hesitant to call his activity out as stalling, or anything like that.
However, with that being said (about information), I think that people on the Glow wagon regard Glow and Moth to be scummy (I'm speaking for myself and maybe others? can't remember), whereas there are people on the Moth wagon that find Glow to be town. Is this going to be the distinguishing factor? I'd like to ask: who on both wagons would switch to the other wagon if they needed to? Maybe that's an obvious question, because I'm pretty sure we all would... but I don't know, maybe it'll be useful.

Also, @Lane, between the two, Glowball and Mothrax, who is scummier? Since you're the only one not on one of the wagons (other than Glow, but she can't really vote for herself), you're the only somewhat impartial eye we have left.

In answer to my own question, I would switch if it meant Mothrax vs No lynch, but that's the obvious answer. That being said: I'm going to help my girlfriend move into her new place tomorrow, and then I'll still be searching for a new place to live (I thought I had a place, which seemed like a really great deal--and then I realized it was a really really too great a deal, plus with the use of language and the Appealing to Emotions in the ad, and the not responding to my questions, I realized they were trying to scam me. Mafia DOES apply to real life! Or maybe I've just been playing to much of it./rant). My point is, that I'll be most likely

V/LA starting tonight - (Is this a better format for you Xalxe?)

and I don't know when I'm going to be un-V/LA. It depends who I'm couch surfing with and if they have internet or not. And then it also depends how quickly I find a place. Luckily we have the night phase coming up

(but I'd ask maybe if we can take the full amount of time until deadline today before making our decision, that way I'll be more likely to be able to participate once we get back to Day 2--provided I'm not dead).

Fuck it, I'm getting a little tired of this day too... It's your call as to when the day ends, doesn't matter to me, at least I get a three day respite to do ma shit, but in case I'm not immediately posting come Day 2, you'll know why.
Also, my other point is that this will prevent me from switching my vote. So don't rely on me to be the hammer, because I probably won't be around (as well as Auckmind, so keep that in mind, Glowball voters).

Ooh, I was going to say Mr. Trow probably won't be a help, but I realized he responded to his prod. I guess we could consider him as a fairly impartial view as well, since he laid his vote on Nobody Special before Mothrax came in. So, Mr. Trow, I would really like to see your input and hear your thoughts on the wagons, as well as Lane.

thunderwielder · Post Post #587 (isolation #44) » Wed Aug 31, 2011 7:56 am

thunderwielder wrote:

-- She's been ignoring a lot of posts and points and questions. Now that could go either way, but I was looking through her wiki (where she talks about how blacklisting is stupid, by the by->thought that was pretty amusing) and in her first scum game, at the wrap up somebody says this post. Seems like similar behaviour here.
--- The whole, refusing to give reads thing.
--- The whole jumping on me for what I consider nothing (this is a grey area actually, not necessarily scum for that, BUT) blowing things out of proportion is scummy for me, plus the constant referrals to "everyone insulting her" when I don't think ANYONE has (if anything, I'll admit I've come the closest--but when others have told her she's being unreasonable, she immediately jumps to the "well, you must be insulting me too--harumph!" card, and so far it's making people back off.
--- Plus, yes I would like a policy lynch on her. I find her to be very unreasonable, and I'm having a hard time tearing my eyes away from her. I consider myself to be a pretty decent scum hunter, and I just can't shake this feeling. And if, on the rare chance that I'm misreading all of her behaviour and startling behaviour, it'll at least give
all of us
ME a break from constant arguments and having to tip-toe around with accusations or questions for fear of them being misinterpreted or her being "insulted."

That's my piece. I really wanted to include the previous game, because I think it's very valid to what's going on here.

Here you go Hoppster. If I missed any points here that others consider to be valid, please add them on (but that's what I came up with when trying to create a bullet point list earlier in the game).
But I'm really happy that Glowball has calmed down now. It's been a lovely relief, and my solid gut read has turned into a half gut read--I will say that.

thunderwielder · Post Post #596 (isolation #45) » Wed Aug 31, 2011 3:55 pm

This will be my last post before going on V/LA. I don't really have too much to say, and I can't believe what I am saying is agreeing with Glowball. 595 is a good post, in my opinion. But I can't fault Lane for his reasoning, since it's my reasoning too. Okay, I guess this post is kind of useless, sorry about that.
If I were to create a list, it would look a lot like Supreme Overlord's list, only switching Hoppster and Maruchan. Hoppster's case on Mothrax is one that has made me consider and reconsider. I think it's a good scummation (see what I did there) of points. Maruchan, I agree with Lane, the 'gambit' seems fishy, but other than that I haven't seen too much wrong from him. Also, I would put Supreme in the townish category. There would also be a separate category for Lane, in between neutral and scummy. I guess this would have been easier if I just made a list. It's late--I'm tired. Goodnight everybody, and I'll try to post as much as I can and as soon as I can. Wish me luck in finding a home!

thunderwielder · Post Post #626 (isolation #46) » Sun Sep 04, 2011 4:27 pm

Fuck yeah!

Wicked cool and awesome, all at once. I'm really annoyed that Glowball wasn't scum, but No Death is freaking sweet.

@Saul, I agree with you. Personally I think it is either 1 or 2. I don't think they wouldn't have submitted due to lack of activity. That would require Auckmind, Mr. Trow and myself to be the scum team. I think that's all who wasn't active. (Technically I'm still on V/LA--still hunting, but the place I'm staying now has internet so I'll try to keep up to date and post as often as I can). And since I can't really see that happening, I'm thinking that it's unlikely.

But we either have a freaking AWESOME doctor or a freaking AWESOME roleblocker.

AND! If we have a cop (don't reveal yourself, but we can keep this in mind), then we either have 1 confirmed scum (from the roleblocker) or 1 confirmed town.
All this stuff can come to light later on in the game (I don't think now is the opportune moment), but it's exciting to consider. I'm pretty glad I checked the thread this evening. Pathetically, yes, this made my night. I'm just happy I'm not dead. And if we have a doctor and you saved me, then thanks for keeping me around.

I think a re-read is definitely in order. We can now take all of Glowball's reads seriously... well.. as confirmed townie reads anyway--and that has to count for a little something. We know she wasn't distancing from anyone, so we can take that into consideration.

Personally, I want to take an in-depth look at Lane and Maruchan, since they were Glowball's big reads. I guess I'll also look at Saulres, but I have a gut townie read on him still, and I don't think Glowball ever stated a case on him (regardless of whether or not I agreed with that case at the time). SEE GLOWBALL--THIS is where your reads are helpful. And YES, I'm following them up. And YES that's why we asked you questions to start with (I hope I'm not beating a dead horse here, but if you're still reading this game, can you understand this point of view now? There's information to be found through every flip, and through every person's suspicions).

So yeah, that's how I'm going to be approaching this day.

thunderwielder · Post Post #639 (isolation #47) » Mon Sep 05, 2011 4:05 am

@ Saulres--that's exactly was I was trying to get at.
I'm saying that if we had a cop, then we would have a guaranteed confirmation of a town or a scum (regardless of who the cop investigated). In a perfect world, we have a cop and a roleblocker, and the cop also investigated someone who turned out to be scum, and right now we have two confirmed scum and don't know it.
If we DON'T have a cop, it becomes a little more finicky, because then we don't have anything confirmed for sure, but we will eventually. I was just listing out possibilities to consider later on down the road--I don't think it benefits us even if we have two confirmed scum through roleblocker/cop action, because then we'd out our power roles day 2, which is not beneficial to us. Even if we don't catch scum for the next two days, that'll give our information people more time to act.
SO--we should have no reveals just yet, but it's always something to keep in the back of our minds. For later.

Moving on.

@Maruchan (or anyone can answer the general time specific questions)--how much time was left on the deadline when you hammered? Why? You are a very active poster, as we've all seen, so I'm sure you could have waited to hammer closer to the deadline, right? Or I am wrong here? Please maybe enlighten me some more. I don't think you can justify it as "Anybody NOT voting her was pretty much refusing to vote her" because we hadn't even heard from RoboThor or Mr.Trow. I think that comment applies only to Amrun (she seemed to be one of the only people defending Glowball to the end, which gives her townie points in my book).
---I also don't like how Maruchan's trying to keep all the options open in terms of Night Kill speculation. I agree with Saul, this is a possible discrediting factor.

@Lane, I'm also interested in your list now. Especially now that Glowball's gone. So we have Maruchan, Mothrax, and who else?

@Supreme Overlord.
Well, I don't really know if I have a question for you, but I'm curious as to why you're voting Mr. Trow. If you suspect Lane, vote for Lane. It'll take six votes to vote him out, there's no real chance of anything happening while you're away, unless you're going to be away for quite some time. To me, this looks like suspicious behaviour. I have a townish read on you, so this action startles me quite.
Clearly Mr. Trow is going to be away until Friday. It says so in the votecount... So a vote for activity is a little bogus. (I agree with you, his inactivity is annoying and ridiculous--but has it verged on scum behaviour yet? If so, can you explain to me why?) It seems like more scummy behaviour to vote in terms of activity, especially since you have a solid suspicion. I feel that a scum member could place a vote there, then say "hey, peacing out for a bit" and come back hoping to find more votes on an inactive player, and then lynch them out (I'm not saying that I think Mr. Trow is solid 100% townie, definitely far from that). I think we have better options to pursue rather than wasting a vote and a voice like that.

PEdit - Xalxe beat me to it.

thunderwielder · Post Post #640 (isolation #48) » Mon Sep 05, 2011 4:11 am

EBWODP

@MOD

Is Auckmind away until this COMING saturday? Because I thought he was only away until saturday as in two days ago.

If that's the case, we're down two voices for pretty much the whole time. They'd better have a lot to freaking say when they get back.

thunderwielder · Post Post #657 (isolation #49) » Tue Sep 06, 2011 4:35 pm

Sweet, in the past little bit while I was reading over things, Lane and Supreme both posted really big cases. It is, however, too late for me to read them. I'll get right on that as soon as possible.

What I was reading over, and what I was going to point out briefly, is that IF the scum were planning on No Killing puposefully, then I hardly see Maruchan/Lane as scum--because why would they have brought forward the option of their plan? BUT if there was a real roleblock/real protect, then this is the way to go about pretending that it isn't worth paying attention to. We have to consider that as well. I find it interesting too that two people that most people are considering scum (or scummy) are the only ones who seem to think that the No Kill has a good possibility of being planned.
In my opinion, that's just a silly thing for scum to do Night 1.
And frankly, I agree, it's time to stop talking about the Night Kill and

MOVE ON to ACTUAL SCUMHUNTING.

So Auckmind, and Mothrax, I WOULD REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY like to hear your thoughts on things. I need to wait a bit to formulate my opinion and gather some more information. Maruchan, I'd also like to hear your case on your main suspect right now (if you've already made it, apologies, and maybe you could link it for me).
RoboThor, I'd really appreciate your input as well. I would have thought hydras would post more often than not--but I understand you not wanting to contradict each other. But Robo, if Thor's really busy, maybe you could just give your thoughts, and then he could post his as well--then we'd have two views? Just a thought.

Let's keep the game moving, guys. I would post a shit storm of suspicions right now, but I have a feeling that a bunch of people jumped on to my suspicions last time, and perhaps some hid behind my suspicions, without feeling the need to post their own. Now this could be town sheeping or scum sheeping, but either way, I don't want that to happen again. I have some notes and some ideas, but I'd really like everyone to post a case on their top suspect, or if you're confused about who your top suspect is--then maybe ask them some questions.
Activity is a way that scum can hide and let the conversation fizzle out--I learned that in my last game. So we need to be pro-active.

@Everyone who voted for Glowball

---could you bring up a bullet point list of why you voted for her (if you haven't already explained already)? Was there one piece of original evidence that you found which cemented in your mind that Glowball was the right lynch yesterday? If you guys want mine... well, I've been pretty vocal about my reasons (and I can't even look at her posts in retrospect without asking "WHY!?" and throwing my head back in desperation and anguish--I still can't believe it. But, Alas, moving on).

thunderwielder · Post Post #667 (isolation #50) » Wed Sep 07, 2011 3:58 am

@Lane, what are the conclusions you've now drawn from the Glowball lynch? As you said mislynching her would at least give some more information (I'm paraphrasing, correct me if I'm misinterpreting).

thunderwielder · Post Post #670 (isolation #51) » Wed Sep 07, 2011 6:53 am

@Lane, yeah, I'm in the same boat. I definitely think it's provided a bit of information, but I need to do a re-read before I confirm anything. I definitely think that good results will be had in seeing how everyone jumped on Glowball, or didn't and why they didn't.

thunderwielder · Post Post #740 (isolation #52) » Thu Sep 08, 2011 4:04 pm

Lane, I think you're case only makes sense if Mothrax AND Supreme turn out to be scum. Therefore, if Mothrax is not scum, all of your evidence falls flat, does it not? And since we haven't seen a Mothrax flip, I don't see how you can say this is evidence rather than speculation. This case is flawed in the same way that Saulres' earlier glowball/Maruchan/Amrun case was flawed. It IS an interesting relationship, I'll give you that, but it could just be that Supreme Overlord was passionate about the Glowball lynch (as was I) and was trying to push pressure on what he thought was the proper lynch.

Soo, looks like we're not hearing from Auckmind... Or RoboThor... Or Mothrax... I'll cut RoboThor slack here. I'd really like something tomorrow, RoboThor, though. Although you're not likely one to jump on my reads and ride them, so I'll probably end up posting something tomorrow. I would really like Mothrax to give his contribution, though. Right now, he's joining the "do diddly-squat" brigade that is his slot. (I'd say the same about Auckmind, but he's flaking. Thank goodness, maybe we'll get someone who'll actually play)

@MOTH

In post 651, mothrax wrote:@saulres other than one game that I just now posted in (stating that i was at work btw) where have I been active on site (while this game was open)

P.s. At work, will have content coming in either late tonight or early in the morning, depending on how much work wipes me out.

So much for that, eh?
When can we expect content from you?

thunderwielder · Post Post #741 (isolation #53) » Thu Sep 08, 2011 4:07 pm

Oh yeah, and this just caught my eye.

In post 700, Amrun wrote:
If you were to flip scum, thunderwielder would be awarded some scum points. Supreme Overlord would be awarded town points.
.

Uhmm... Why? I don't understand this connection at all. And this is unsettling to me, because right now Lane's on my scummy list too. So if I'm right about that interpretation, then how do I get scum points?

thunderwielder · Post Post #747 (isolation #54) » Fri Sep 09, 2011 3:53 am

In post 742, Maruchan wrote:Skimmed the case by lane abotu to finish reading it.

quick thought before I finish though:

I THOUGHT I TAUGHT YOU ALL THAT SCUMTEAM PREDICTIONS ARE IDIOTIC?
Lane, did you not learn this the first time around? Do we REALLY need to do it again? Lynch me, and maybe THIS TIME you'll learn that SCUM. TEAM. PREDICTIONS. ARE. STUPID.

I'm with Saulres... he wasn't even talking about you.
Defensive much?

thunderwielder · Post Post #758 (isolation #55) » Fri Sep 09, 2011 12:03 pm

I'm currently building cases on Mothrax and Lane and Maruchan, and then I'll have a vote by the end of that. I don't see the Mr. Trow case. I don't see the Supreme Overlord case without a Mothrax flip. I would have preferred to wait for Mothrax to post, but oh well. Although I don't anticipate having it done today as I thought I would, because my girlfriend and I are having a date night. So tomorrow then, when she's at work and I've hit a dead wall looking for a place to live.

One thing I will say right now, though, is that look how much Lane is throwing people off his vote.

Amrun, you didn't answer my question. Are you going to? I understand if you don't want to, seeing as then I'll be able to distance myself from a potential lane scumbuddy, but I'm still curious at the statement.

thunderwielder · Post Post #768 (isolation #56) » Sat Sep 10, 2011 4:26 am

Spoiler: LANE

Lane
- Seems to be trying to brush Supreme Overlord’s case away as a matter of “you haven’t really been reading my ISO completely”, and says things are taken out of context when Supreme Overlord hasn’t done so “Ie. Good questions, but you should finish reading my iso”
- Post 664 Enough was put out for many people to vote.
- Post 123 – has always rubbed me a little the wrong way. Not because I was buddying with RoboThor earlier in the game (I was), but just the way he goes about saying it. He’s just mentioned that he thinks Saul is newbie, and he’s taken flak for asking questions about things he doesn’t understand before (it’s Lane’s fourth game—Thunder’s questions help us AGAIN). But then he sets up his own question “Is complementing Thor buddying?” Now I don’t know if that’s a real question, because I don’t think it is. I don’t think it can be—this is my fourth game, and I’m pretty clear on what buddying is.
SO, then

why

say it as a question? I think it was a feeler post, testing out the waters if anyone would jump on a “tell” like that for me. And when nobody did, he never brought it up again. So it can’t have been really important, or it can’t have been a real read, so why even say it in the first place? That, to me, is curious.
- Up to ISO 21, again, how much has Lane done…? I’m really not sure. His contributions seem to be his vote for Maruchan (I buy his reasoning’s for the initial vote), and then just a defence of himself.
- Oh, ISO 22 has some content. That’s good to see. I don’t know how much, and I don’t know if it’s too little too late.
- BUT in it, he slips in the “I had a power role read on Saulres.” This is bad. We’ve discussed why it’s bad, but reading it in context really makes it pop out. There really was NO reason to say it. Again—lke in post 123, I think this was another feeler post (if I’m interpreting the term feeler post right). He was feeling out for anyone to jump on that and support it, or for Saul to jump out and support it. So (in a scum Lane scenario) maybe they could take out Saul in the night. (BUT he’s continued on his Maruchan case. I still see it as reasonable in his eyes, and here’s the “defense” of Glowball. Yes, it’s a defense as for reasons that Supreme Overlord pointed out. I don’t think defenses are a bad thing—but the fact that you keep trying to use it as a defense of yourself rubs me the wrong way.)
- Post 349 (ISO 24). Here Lane and I get into a bit of a tizzy. Lane thinks I’m being a douche. I explain why I’m pressuring my read on Glow. He argues that self-preservation is not what’s happening (even though at this point in time Glow has not received a whole super bunch of pressure). Actually, I’m going to let this drop—reading it again, it’s clear I’m too close to this particular posting.
-
Post 744
- Trying to get the heat off of Supreme Overlord’s top read (himself) and on to Mothrax. This is kind of the same thing that he’s accusing Overlord of doing.

Tl;dr (does this mean top left to down right? I’ve been trying to figure out the acronym for quite some time now, I think I nailed it, but let me know if I’m wrong)
I was going to post more, but I think now Robo’s covered the rest in his case, as well as Supreme Overlord. I don’t think we need three walls of Lane’s scummyness. My points against him are as follows: Post 123, I think is valid and hasn’t been brought up before; He had Glowball as a town read, defended her—he even says it in his later posts “yes I am defending her now”, but that was in response to me, and he thought I was saying she hadn’t posted anything about anything, so I guess I can let that slide—BUT it was the way he switched over to Glowball immediately after she started attacking him that makes me uneasy. The PR hunting, for obvious reasons (I like Robo’s description about this). Plus the most recent activity on Supreme Overlord, and then the shift to Mothrax. To me, this reads as though he’s trying to get everyone off his back by targeting the next biggest target—one that he hopes Amrun and Supreme Overlord will have to jump on (and one that Amrun DID jump on—and Supreme might have as well). I think this last point was really sneaky behaviour, enabling him to move votes off of him and back on to another suspicious target. I’m leaning towards a Lane vote right now, but I’ll have to wait until I finish my post to be sure.

Spoiler: Maruchan

- RQS stuff – holds no water.
- Same with the repeating of Glowball’s phrasing
- The caring vs no-caring debate also has no impact on his alignment (I’m addressing these things, because I think they were used as scum points against Maruchan, and if someone can explain to me WHY, I would appreciate it, because I can’t see anything from them)
- Post 63 – Takes credit for the discussion that’s happening. Also says the word “town” A LOT in that post. Although, I suppose this could just be a playstyle post, but it does seem a little off.
- I buy his reaction to the two votes on him. I don’t think that’s a scum reaction. It was early in the game, and nobody needed to worry. However, I always want to take the time to quell people’s fears rather than just accept them, because then they’re not wasting their time on me, but can devote it to finding the scum, so I don’t know how I feel about that point either. It DOES seem a little cavalier.
- Now up to post 212… I can’t find too much content in the posts that are happening thus far.
- Oh Maruchan replies to Glowball’s case here. I still don’t see her case. The only point that I feel holds any water could be her last one. Not about not answering questions, but about Maruchan defending more than he is scum hunting.
- I guess it could be understandable that he was defending more than scumhunting, because he was the lead wagon, but I would have liked to see more reaching out, rather than just “back off” behaviour.
-

big point

(I’m bolding because this list is getting long, and I think this is the most relevant information thus far. Post 329. The “Good you caught me subverting the game=town points for you” thing. I don’t know if I buy it. Especially because that’s when the heat was slowly falling away from him. It’s convenient that he only decided to do this “gambit” when there was distraction leading away from his leading wagon. I don’t quite buy it. This is probably my biggest piece of evidence for Maruchan.
- Nothing to note until post 526. This is an odd post.

Maruchan, what did you mean by this post?

It has the same feeling as Lane’s PR comment. So that kind of weirds me out.
- But 527 is a good post against Mothrax.
- And actually, reviewing, his jump to Glowball was something he had already stated the day (real time) before.
- I haven’t even touched his wall of case on Trow. Well, okay, I’ve looked at it, but there’s too much anger in it for me to digest. Actually, okay, no. I agree with Mr. Trow’s fourth point in his list in the first quote under Maruchan’s spoiler. (wow, that’s confusing). And the fifth point, I’m not sure I’m satisfied with Maruchan’s response.

Tl;dr
Maruchan is kind of an odd duck. He’s posted more than anyone, and a lot of that ends up being fluff. But I can’t tell if it’s just fluffy because he posts multiple times in a row, and I can’t decide if that falls to playstyle. Now I’m paranoid about another playstyle mistake on my part, since Glowball turned out to actually be a townie. Maruchan defends very frequently, and did his “I’m going to lay low and see who notices” ploy RIGHT when the Glowball/me debate was reaching its climax. He makes a comment about Lane, and then immediately switches over to Mr. Trow. Some scummy behaviour has been happening. I don’t know if I want to vote for him yet. I’ll see after I finish this post. It’s just that a lot of his posts strike me as filler and not that super duper productive.

Spoiler: Mothrax

Tl;dr
Mothrax hasn’t posted that much content, and I don’t know if he ever will. It’s harder to get a read on him with his 18 posts compared to Maruchan’s 146 and Lane’s 99. I disagree with the statement that he’s put more effort into defending Nobody Special than he has with his reads. I agree that he hasn’t posted much content, and I agree that he’s been always skirting around the edges of posting much content. “Incoming large post”… when? I understand the business of real life, and like Hoppster sympathise at how hard it is to get into the game (whenever I take a break, now that I’m actually doing real life things, I too find it hard to jump back in), but that can’t stop you from actually posting. Or it shouldn’t. I also agree with Hoppster’s case. Actually… I can really start to see the benefits of a Mothrax lynch. BUT I’d rather let him contribute more. Although at this point, I’m torn if he actually WILL contribute more, and if we’ll get anything out of him.

Conclusions… maybe?

I think all three of these people are scummy. Now I’m just trying to figure out who’s the most scummy and who’s the least scummy. I started out, with these reads, thinking that my order was going to be Lane/Maruchan/Mothrax in terms of most to least. But now I’m not so sure. Mothrax is making a grab for the lead, Maruchan’s most recent posts just seem off to me, yet so do Lane’s. In truth, none of these three have done THAT much scum hunting. I’m very interested in the Mothrax/Supreme Overlord relationship that Lane pointed out, but I don’t know if I can trust Lane enough to follow through with that plan. Plus, out of the three, I find Lane’s jump on to the Glowball lynch to be the most insincere. So, with that in mind, I’m going to have to
VOTE: Lane.
This way, if Lane turns out to be scum, which I think there’s a high probability, perhaps part of my fears towards Mothrax can be assuaged.

ALSO, I think this puts him at L-2. So everyone be aware of that.

thunderwielder · Post Post #769 (isolation #57) » Sat Sep 10, 2011 4:36 am

EBWODP

This are unrelated to my reads--just responding to things.

@Amrun

In post 741, thunderwielder wrote:Oh yeah, and this just caught my eye.

In post 700, Amrun wrote:
If you were to flip scum, thunderwielder would be awarded some scum points. Supreme Overlord would be awarded town points.
.

Uhmm... Why? I don't understand this connection at all. And this is unsettling to me, because right now Lane's on my scummy list too. So if I'm right about that interpretation, then how do I get scum points?

That's what I was asking about. I mean, I guess I could now be throwing my scumbuddy under the bus to get back into your good graces, but I've had a somewhat read on Lane all game. I'm just curious why I would get scumpoints if he flipped scum, since I haven't been exactly defending him.

Also, Robo, in response to me blipping on your radar (I know you said I've gone back down to neutral, but I figured I'd address it anyway), I was just excited about the No Kill. Because when Glowball flipped town, I immediately thought "well, I'm done for." I figured the scum would kill me in the night, since I had outlived my usefulness (ie, driving a mislynch). So the fact that no one was dead (specifically that I wasn't dead) made me happy. As I was writing it, I thought about that tell actually, but I didn't think about it since it was the opposite. I figured it was better not to filter myself anyway.
That was my thought process at that specific time.

thunderwielder · Post Post #810 (isolation #58) » Wed Sep 14, 2011 5:39 am

Fack. Fack fack fack. (Yes, I know I'm commenting on the outcome of the night again--shame on me, but it's for a specific reason)

@ LANE

- If you're reading this... THIS IS WHY YOU NEVER SELF VOTE AS TOWN AND NEVER GIVE YOUR POWER ROLE READINGS AS TOWN! Keep this in mind next time please.
Plus- I was actually buying your last large post, Lane. It was reading townie to me, rather than your other ones. At the very least there were some additional questions that I would have asked, if you hadn't hammered yourself early. Maybe we could have avoided a mislynch of you, if you had fought harder and didn't give up. Just remember that for future games. It NEVER benefits your win condition to self-vote (unless you're scum, because then it reduces the wagon analysis--something I learned in my last game).

Saulres, you'll be missed.

Okay, on to alive business.
We still don't know if we have a cop or a roleblocker, but whoever is the cop/roleblocker will know who they are. So, if we have a cop, they should be able to know that Maruchan and Mothrax are not confirmed townies (by Saul's doctor save the first night--and I definitely think he must have saved someone in the night, since he's now dead.) just judging by Saul's reactions to them afterwards. Unfortunately, they are also the top two suspects right now (at least mine).
Plus, out of the three townies that are dead, Maruchan was suspected heavily by Glowball and Saulres (and actually, a bit of lane, but I'm not sure if he changed his stance on that when he called Amrun scum--I'll have to reread). Mothrax was suspected heavily by Lane and I think Saulres --judging by his fifth(?) post after day two started.
If we have a roleblocker, then we can't use Saulres's "not-focusing on specific people" as a tell.

I'm still discussing semantics, but I want to get them all out of the way in the beginning. If anyone

really really feels passionately

about adding more to this speculation, I guess go ahead and do so, but make sure you couple it with scumhunting.

I have two things to bring up.
1) If we have a roleblocker-->Should they reveal themselves? As I write this, I'm thinking "probably definitely not." I'm now just getting paranoid that the Mafia will take them out in the night, and we won't be able to use any of their reads. But then again, actually, we don't know if Saul made the save or if the roleblocker made the kill. The only reason I can think of in terms of revealing, is if they feel they had a good chance of snagging the scum. If they feel they probably made the save instead of Saulres. But, actually, now that I'm thinking it over, I really not sure if it makes the most sense.
2) Shit, I forget what I was going to say. I got all wrapped up in my previous point, and realized what I was saying was kind of dumb (I'll leave it instead of deleting it in case anyone grasps anything useful from it, but.. yeah).
3) I remember,
VOTE: Maruchan
Three townies suspected him (compared to the two for Mothrax). Those same three townies are dead. Not only that, but his first post of the day is meaningless. Great contribution. Plus, he's the only one who mentioned "I PR hunt if I'm doc" and now the doc is dead.
For me, it's either him or Mothrax. One of them HAS TO BE SCUM, if not both. There's no way we've been circling around them for so long without AT LEAST one of them being scum. I don't really care which one goes, but one of them should. If we are to go with Lane's case on Mothrax, we could get a tentative something on Supreme Overlord--but right now (before a reread at least) he seems townie to me (Supreme, not Mothrax). Although I really like Lane's last big post--I think there are some really valuable points against Mothrax--I'll take the three dead reads on Maruchan for something over two.

Mist, welcome to the game. I hope you were able to get a fresh insight during the night and are going to contribute much more than your predecessor. Thank you so much for subbing in.

thunderwielder · Post Post #825 (isolation #59) » Wed Sep 14, 2011 4:04 pm

"TOSSING BOLLOCKS". Ignore the case because I'm "bullshitting" towards you and that's your defense because I hadn't 100% read the whole game. And it comes with an OMGUS vote.

Although I don't necessarily agree with the manner of going through the game (because I'm sure that's where some of her confusion is coming from), I'm sure she'll read through everything in context when she's done.

The aggressive attack back on her, as well as the vote, makes it seem like too much of an over-reaction. Also, now not commenting on anything regarding Lane's flip AKA why you were so adamant (I use this word in fond memory, Lane) that he was scum (sure, we all were), but more importantly what his flipping town means, makes me suspect you more than her case.
I don't understand the reaction, especially since I have found you thus far in the game to be fairly logical and compelling. Maybe it is just a reaction. Maybe it's because Lane was pointing the finger at you heavily yesterday and now the new recruit is suspecting you, even though Lane is dead.

@Maruchan, I think we've been wrong two times in a row, and now our doctor's dead. I think we ought to give SOME value to the ghosts of townies past.

PEdit--I think I see where you're coming from, Amrun. This latest post makes more sense to me than the first one.

thunderwielder · Post Post #826 (isolation #60) » Wed Sep 14, 2011 4:10 pm

Thunderwielder wrote:
Mist, welcome to the game. I hope you were able to get a fresh insight during the night and are going to contribute much more than your predecessor. Thank you so much for subbing in.
--
I take it back...

Tragedy, welcome to the game. Thank you so much for subbing in. We all really appreciate, I'm sure.

thunderwielder · Post Post #837 (isolation #61) » Thu Sep 15, 2011 2:12 am

Mr.Trow wrote:- as for the 'fun' in 'poking fun'-discussion: it is not relevant whether or not the one poking / the one being poked / anyone looking to consider the situation 'funny'/worthy of the title 'joke'
fact remains maru did prevent a conversation starter (RQS) for reasons that were not relevant to this game, was informed of the fact this wasn`t going to get cleared up anytime soon (as the robothor account wasn`t activated) still decided to encourage those who were willing to wait for it.

I have to disagree with you here, Trow. I don't think this was for non-legitimate reasons. My last game was with Thor (Newbie 1132 if I still remember correctly), and he was scum, and we eventually caught him, but it was tough as hell and he is convincing as hell. So (and I stated this at the beginning of the game) I totally understand where Maruchan was coming from in this respect, and the fact that when Thor showed up and said that he didn't like RQS clears Maruchan from this. We got discussion going anyway, and I think Maruchan was actually trying to be part of that discussion. That's where I actually find him the most town. I've found him scummier as the game progressed. He was encouraging people to wait for the response because they were voting for him.

Also, I don't agree with your point about the Lane PR stuff. I brought it up for a different reason. There's NO way that Lane would have self-voted if he was the doc. Only straight vanilla townies would ever think about that. I can't fathom a time when a power role would be so distraught that he wouldn't claim and hammer himself, screwing the town over royally.

Could you also elaborate on doc claiming scenario? I'm not sure I'm getting your reasonings?

Are you maybe just sheeping my vote without too many solid reads of your own? Just a teensy bit? It's okay, you can be honest with me. Tell the truth and shame the devil.

thunderwielder · Post Post #838 (isolation #62) » Thu Sep 15, 2011 2:23 am

On a side note,
@Mothrax. Get in here with butt loads times four of content. I know what your "butt loads" look like... That just sounds wrong... Anyway... I want four of them, because maybe that will actually turn out to be an actual "butt load of content."

I really have to stop using that expression...

thunderwielder · Post Post #843 (isolation #63) » Thu Sep 15, 2011 4:26 pm

This game is getting slower and slower.

WHERE IS ALL THE CONTENT AT?!?!?!?!

@Mothrax... guess you're working late.

@Tragedy, I understand this method of going through things might be working for you, but are you going to post one person a day until we get to the deadline? Maybe, in that case, it could be more useful for you to read the whole thread.

@RoboThor, what's up? Where you at?

@Amrun, how confident are you in your Tragedy read? A percentage will do.

@Maruchan, got any front runners for suspects? You haven't really posted any content since I mentioned that you weren't posting content.

@Trow, looking forward to your Maruchan read, and maybe some views of your own, rather making up ones that don't seem to make sense and jumping on my vote (I'm really sick of people sheeping me without good reason). You said you'll meta him. Is your whole case based upon meta? How much is? Percentage will do again.

@Hoppster, can't really complain too much. You have legitimate reasons to be pushing your Mothrax lynch. Who is your second top suspect?

@Supreme Overlord. So your lane case fell flat. As did your Glowball case. Where are you at now? How about some content from you too.

It's not the weekend, so where are you?

Oh shit, you're on V/LA until the 29th... well, you're pretty much not going to be here for this lynch. So that means we'll have to work extra hard to figure things out, since we don't have your voice. If you're checking the thread and able to give your voice, how about giving a top three and a couple sentences on why. Maybe don't lay down a vote (fack, you can do what you want, I don't really care), just because new information might come about while you're away... but then we'd see who quick voted and be closer to catching scum, so actually, do whatever the heck you want.

I'm exhausted, and I'm going to bed, but my irritation is showing, I'm sure. I would really like to log on to my computer and not have to read the same stuff over and over.

Let's ACTIVELY PARTICIPATE and not let any scum HIDE IN THE BACKGROUND!
If we are lynching active people, and the scum are actually just lurking, I'll be so pissed. I am already, so my ire will know no bounds, if that turns out to be the case.

thunderwielder · Post Post #846 (isolation #64) » Fri Sep 16, 2011 4:04 am

ALSO

What does everyone think of THIS POST now that Lane is confirmed townie? Re-reading it again, I'm starting to maybe re-think some things.

thunderwielder · Post Post #852 (isolation #65) » Fri Sep 16, 2011 10:00 am

If you finish your reads really quickly, I'll think you're improving, Tragedy... But at least you're posting content. I just want to see the final summation, once you've evaluated everyone.

I'll take your word for it, Hopp. Especially since I'm not a fan of Mr. Trow sheeping my vote for reasons that I don't really buy. They're both scum in my book, but I'll go with you on the Mothrax lynch today. Especially after re-reading Lane's post. And since Mothrax is still avoiding everything, and if we're going to lynch a semi-lurker, I would rather do that today and be wrong rather than do it in lynch or lose and be wrong. I mean, worst case scenario, obviously.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Mothrax

thunderwielder · Post Post #855 (isolation #66) » Fri Sep 16, 2011 10:11 am

In post 853, Tragedy wrote:

MrTrow wrote:- NEW ADDITION: my favorite: 'lane was pr-hunting', was a mayor part of the case, maru pointed out this could be a doc-tell as well. YET he didn`t CARE about HAMMERING someone he had just explained to be a POSSIBLE DOC.

Very interesting and noteworthy against Maruchan.

It really isn't. No doctor would self-vote. This is the weakest bit of evidence I've seen used to vote someone thus far. Which is probably why my vote has now switched.

You'll see it when you get to Lane, Tragedy. This is perhaps why this method might be leaving some things out for you, but I still appreciate these reads, and the speed at which they are now being produced.

thunderwielder · Post Post #885 (isolation #67) » Sun Sep 18, 2011 2:46 pm

Amrun wrote:Her walls of ISO show a lot of cog dis; she's taking every pot shot she can think of, but not really integrating them into cohesive opinions.

This makes sense to me. This is why I would like Tragedy to FINISH her evaluation and bring up everything. I fear it could be a stalling tactic, because we only have six days left, and judging by her rate of posting, I don't know if she's going to get finished with plenty of time to spare.
Right now, I can't tell if she's just posting all her suspiciousness that she perceives from everyone, or if it's just a culmination of her thoughts. She needs to hurry up and finish evaluating EVERYONE, give a vote, and give her other suspects AND WHY.

But, again, I'm worried about this stalling tactic, as it has definitely worked for others in this game. Mothrax and Maruchan seem to be employing it now (although, I understand that the beginning of school is a busy time). I would have said RoboThor was doing it too until quite recently, but I'm looking forward to more content--this to me could have been considered as a scummy-ish tell, because Thor openly admitted in the QT in my last game (when he was scum) that he didn't post as often as he would have had he been town. But I guess that's just meta. However, it's interesting that RoboThor deliberately left himself out of Lane's vote count. I felt he had a good reason to vote Lane at the time, but now I don't know. I could see a possible RoboThor/Amrun scumteam, if we the town were being really taken for a loop. Right now they're both still town-ish in my eyes. But more towards the null aspect as the days have been progressing. I'm not getting as solid a read on them as I used to.
Again, this will probably change WITH MORE CONTENT.

FROM EVERYONE.

With all the stalling and non-content, it's really hard to get a solid read.

I will say, though, that I was very pleasantly surprised when I logged on now and was able to actually read a great deal. I didn't expect as much to be said that was said.

In other news, I'm quite thrilled that Mr. Trow is no longer stalling, and I like his case. This alleviates any suspicions I put towards him for his other 'case,' which I thought was a bit bollock-sy.

Also, Mod, if Supreme Overlord is being replaced, will we be getting a deadline extension? So that whomever replaces in has time to catchup?
You should probably make Mist replace into that one. So she can immediately vote Tragedy if Tragedy's role PM was a scummy one.

thunderwielder · Post Post #890 (isolation #68) » Sun Sep 18, 2011 3:03 pm

Right now, I think we might need to start focusing on relationships, and who's attacking whom, and that sort of thing.

I'm stumped as to where to go from there, but we need to start using these flips as an excuse for something. Or to give us information about SOMETHING. And who has been interacting with whom and against whom. Who has been sheeping reasonings for presumable 'town-points.' Have we missed any tells of the sort. I think there's a lot more that we could be doing, but nobody seems to be doing it. We're all getting caught up with perhaps semantics. I think it's telling that the same four people have been suspected (or at least voted upon) for three days now (Mothrax, Maruchan, Lane, and Glowball). We've killed two of them, and twice we've been wrong. This means there's AT LEAST one more scum person out there who hasn't been suspected as much. We need to (if not today, then definitely tomorrow) start remembering to throw everyone in the lime light. In my mind, I've considered RoboThor in particular to be town all game. While I still believe that to be fairly true, I have been avoiding throwing attention on him because of my previous belief. When, actually now that I have looked a little closer, I found two things that unsettle me (but perhaps I was pushing to the back of my mind and not giving any weight to).
I now have more things to consider. We need to start thinking outside the box, because I'm starting to doubt myself and, like Lane in post 775, I'm starting to worry that my townreads might be wrong. Maybe it's just this game throwing my head into wild obscurities, or because I've never lynched back-to-back townies before, and maybe we're actually on the RIGHT track, and we should lynch Mothrax and Maruchan (or Maruchan and Mothrax--I feel like I keep talking about Rosencrantz and Guildenstern with these two), because I still maintain the notion that one of them (if not both) are scum, and we can't lose if that's the case, and we'll have smaller numbers, and less people to choose from--BUT, we need to START considering these things now and pay closer attention to them. We WILL need them in the long run, if we're to win this game.

PEdit - Yeah, Tragedy, the Mist replacing thing was a joke. In case you couldn't tell.
And I agree that we need to be productive. Hence this post. BUT I think Amrun's being fairly productive for one. RoboThor might be starting to be. I find Trow's case to be lovely, but I certainly hope he doesn't just drop off the face of the earth, as is his tendency after posting cases

hear that, Trow?

.
Tragedy, could you single out the people that aren't being productive, and why they are not?

thunderwielder · Post Post #891 (isolation #69) » Sun Sep 18, 2011 3:04 pm

EBWODP
I'm only waiting for you to finish, so I can figure out if you're scum or not. Simple as that. Since you're a suspect, and have gotten attention from at least a couple other people.

thunderwielder · Post Post #892 (isolation #70) » Sun Sep 18, 2011 3:17 pm

In post 889, Amrun wrote:He was prodded like 3 posts ago...

I think this might be important... Was there a benefit of Tragedy saying "Prod Mothrax!" other than to get the heat off of her? It's another way of saying "Hey guys, don't forget about THIS suspicious person too! Don't just focus on meee..."

thunderwielder · Post Post #900 (isolation #71) » Mon Sep 19, 2011 3:38 am

@RoboThor,
In response to why I switched my vote over to Mothrax. I first did it because I was wary of Trow. Now that wariness has dissipated. I still

really

like Trow's case. However, I don't like us having to choose between lynching a lurker in LyLo (if, in the worst case scenario, Mothrax somehow miraculously flips town). I also think Mothrax's flip will probably give us more information in terms of relationships. If Mothrax is scum, I hardly see Hoppster as scum, since he's been pushing Mothrax all game. I then will need to revisit your slot and Supreme Overlord's slots to see your connection with him. I don't feel anyone's really defended Maruchan, and his last few posts are becoming increasingly more scummy (especially not pointing out that he put Mothrax at L-1, that's a big no no in my books--along with his still avoiding answering Mr. Trow's case on him and hoping it will go away), but I feel we can save him until tomorrow, because he'll be posting more and we'll be able to see more interaction with him. (I suppose the same relationship information can be derived from Maruchan's flip too, but the only thing I would get would be a pretty confirmed town Trow, due to his contributions to the game. Plus, Maruchan's kind of been all over the map throughout the game, and Mothrax has been more simplistic, and therefore easily to disect)
I'm now turning my mind to lynching for information. We CANNOT waste today's lynch. We NEED to lynch someone who is a)well, obviously very very suspicious so we can lynch a scum but b)if we're to choose between those two, I'm going to go with the one that can give us more relationships. And more information after their death--since we're not getting much information from them when they've been alive.
I think Hoppster said this before--that in his mind, he's been categorizing people as "Mothrax" or "not-Mothrax." I think this information will be valuable to us on Day 4 if we lynch Mothrax now, and give Maruchan a chance to dig his grave a little more, and then lynch him tomorrow (notwithstanding a huge, magical, better case on someone else).

thunderwielder · Post Post #901 (isolation #72) » Mon Sep 19, 2011 3:47 am

As for the stuff recently happening... well, to be honest, there's not too much I can comment on. I've already agreed with Amrun's stance on Tragedy, but I would like her to finish her readthrough before I pass my final verdict. I think Amrun's push is too aggressive for scum, and I've a towny read on Amrun pretty much all game. For now, at least, it'll probably stay that way until the end of the day. Mr Trow is leaning town for his case and the amount of work he put into it. RoboThor, you're still a null, but mostly because I'm afraid that I'm being tricked by you again.
Other than that, I think I've addressed everything that had happened in the page that I didn't post.

thunderwielder · Post Post #904 (isolation #73) » Mon Sep 19, 2011 9:37 am

In post 903, Tragedy wrote:
In post 892, thunderwielder wrote:
In post 889, Amrun wrote:He was prodded like 3 posts ago...

I think this might be important... Was there a benefit of Tragedy saying "Prod Mothrax!" other than to get the heat off of her? It's another way of saying "Hey guys, don't forget about THIS suspicious person too! Don't just focus on meee..."

Well, focusing on me isn't being productive, you know. It's basically like scum "waiting" for me to finish posting cases (Which is taking a long while), so they're using me as time to stall and crap.
But yes, he still needs to be prodded.

Yeah, which he already had been. So you pointing it out really means absolutely nothing. And now you're falling back on "It's going to take me a long while," and still haven't put any input in towards the Mothrax/Maruchan debate that seems to be our options (also what RoboThor just asked you). ALSO, you haven't answered the question RoboThor just asked you again. which you are ignoring, only to post snide remarks about how anyone targetting you isn't productive.
Sure, Mothrax isn't being productive, but if THAT was your main point (I can only infer perhaps that's what you meant by scum waiting--or were you talking about Maruchan? He said something of the sort before, right?), why not say it that way? Instead, you're now just being defensive and playing the "don't look at me too closely" card. Who else are the scum that are waiting for you to finish?
My point is, why not say it outright, instead of hiding behind defensiveness and stalling? Who are you suspecting? You talk of productivity, well, your last post was anything but.

thunderwielder · Post Post #907 (isolation #74) » Mon Sep 19, 2011 11:12 am

@Tragedy,
I'm assuming the questions aren't rhetorical, so if they are, well... then I guess this post is useless. But let me know if I left out something you want answered.

Why the specific Glowball, because she spew out crap against Maruchan, but not anyone else on the wagon? (Other than Lane?)

At that specific time moment in time, I couldn't see past the Glowball lynch. It was before Glowball was dead, right? I was really really certain in that lynch, because of all the avoiding, and the non-contributing, and what seemed to me to be fairly fabricated cases with little weight behind them. That's where that came from.

Interesting to know how you would play as scum, but is that really true? I haven't seen your scum meta yet

No, I've been stone cold Vanilla for every game that I've played thus far. I've played only one game off this site, which is what got me into this site, that my buddy modded, and I was a Vanilla there (but managed to bag all three scum on day one--I wish it had been on here, really, because I was pretty proud--but probably because we were all new, so it was easier to spot people making mistakes and pretending to blend in). Anyway, yeah, it's true. If it came down to questions that I couldn't answer without revealing myself, I would try to do everything in my power to make those questions go away and people to forget about them. It made sense at the time, and I think it still makes sense now.

Thinking about this, is Supreme Overlord trying to buddy you like hell?

I'm not sure. It's hard, because he's popped up with the same reads as I have, and I think they sound genuine. However, after recently looking back on events, I've been noticing that at the beginning of Day Two, he was pretty adamant that his reasons for voting Glowball were justified. But, actually, looking back, I can't find the thing that jumped out at me, so I'm not sure how glaringly obvious he was. But, and perhaps this is because he's been on the same page with me, but I feel Supreme Overlord is still townie. BUT, then again, we haven't managed to lynch scum yet, so that gut read is becoming less and less sure. I don't think he was buddying me, though. I feel his reasons for voting were actually some of the most original/genuine. The voting reasons get a little shifty as the vote counts were added.

Why are you disproving someone else's theory for Maruchan? I don't seem to get it.

I'm disproving it because it was

Mothrax's

theory for Maruchan. There's a difference, especially because at that point, I'm pretty sure (correct me if my memory is faulty) that Mothrax's Maruchan case was the largest read he had--and provided the most content towards. So disproving of his biggest theory shows that perhaps it was fabricated and made-up because he was looking for "providing a case cred." That's what I was looking for. I asked the same thing of Glowball, to which she never responded to. Come to think of it, did Mothrax respond?

Funny how obvious scummy guy is getting lynched over the unproductive scum.

This isn't a question for me, but I have a clarification. Are you here saying that you feel Mothrax was scummier than Lane? Or rather, is? Not sure what you mean by this.

Do you think we would have got any information from him when he ISN'T being pressured?

To be honest, especially at this point, I don't think so. He seems really flakey, and probably not as interested or into the game as most others in this game.

Looking at the glowball case, it's most likely the first time I've seen you really go that far to do so. Most of the time, you would be giving out reads with other people that comes with ISOs, but you're doing it on one post. And you aren't ISO'ing anyone.

Could you also elaborate on what you mean by this? Are you saying that I have only really scumhunted Glowball? Or that she was my biggest case? What did you think of my other cases? On the three (Lane, Maruchan and Mothrax)?

thunderwielder · Post Post #908 (isolation #75) » Mon Sep 19, 2011 11:13 am

Could everyone else that Tragedy has done an ISO on, PLEASE RESPOND IN THE MANNER I DID? I'm fairly certain she's asked questions from everyone, and I think I'm the only one to give a comprehensive response.

thunderwielder · Post Post #909 (isolation #76) » Mon Sep 19, 2011 11:16 am

And Tragedy, once you read Supreme Overlord, are you going to do a readthrough through the whole thread and then give us a summation of your findings, plus your top scum suspects? Because I would really appreciate that.

thunderwielder · Post Post #912 (isolation #77) » Mon Sep 19, 2011 2:11 pm

Why is Tragedy better than Mothrax or Maruchan?

thunderwielder · Post Post #913 (isolation #78) » Mon Sep 19, 2011 2:15 pm

Actually, well, no I can buy it. But I'd like to hear your response anyway.

thunderwielder · Post Post #917 (isolation #79) » Tue Sep 20, 2011 2:38 am

Actually, I'd be okay with a Tragedy lynch today too. I think we need to start thinking outside our proverbial box, so to speak. My only worry is that since we've been circling Mothrax and Maruchan for so long, and if they are scum, I don't want them to get off the hook.

As for the information aspect... you're right, RoboThor. (Thank you for clarifying your desires). The bigger reason for me to lynch Mothrax over Maruchan is that I thought Maruchan would be producing more information and I didn't want to have to choose between lynching someone and lynching a lurker (Mothrax), on the odd chance that Maruchan is town and we go into LyLo tomorrow. But Maruchan seems to have stopped his really really active posting by now, but I still think he'll be more active than Mothrax, who seems on the verge of being replaced.

thunderwielder · Post Post #922 (isolation #80) » Wed Sep 21, 2011 7:13 am

Tragedy, I want your top three reads, with reasoning why, plus an analysis of Supreme Overlord's slot and then a vote (if it's not the hammer for Mothrax) like, two days ago. Could you do that for us please?

The lack of commitment happening here is appalling. Are we just going to not post our way into a scum win?

I'm getting more likely to vote for a Tragedy lynch right now, actually. Since I made the declaration that I would have to wait and see when she's done her cases and given her reads to decide she's scum, she's henceforth not given her reads or her cases. And her activity has declined.

You want us to take a good look at Amrun? Make a good case on Amrun.

thunderwielder · Post Post #928 (isolation #81) » Wed Sep 21, 2011 4:35 pm

I'm in.
VOTE: Tragedy

thunderwielder · Post Post #942 (isolation #82) » Thu Sep 22, 2011 6:21 am

Awesome. Welcome Quillford and DeltaWave. Looking forward to your catchup posts. Thanks so much for replacing into such a long game.

Thanks for the deadline extension, mod.

thunderwielder · Post Post #943 (isolation #83) » Thu Sep 22, 2011 6:22 am

In post 939, RoboThor wrote:
Could you explain why Tragedy is town and mothrax is scum? At least one of them?

@ Quilford

thunderwielder · Post Post #960 (isolation #84) » Fri Sep 23, 2011 7:01 pm

In post 955, DeltaWave wrote:
In post 954, MrTrow wrote:
In post 900, thunderwielder wrote:I also think Mothrax's flip will probably give us more information in terms of relationships. If Mothrax is scum, I hardly see Hoppster as scum, since he's been pushing Mothrax all game.

This is, in its sum totality, the best offer of info gained you provided for Mothrax over Maru.

No one sees these 2 as linkable?

I know it may tread on OMGUS territory but I'm aware that I'm town, so it sounds like thunder might be trying to protect Hoppster with that statement, since if thunder and hoppster are scum then they would know my flip anyway.

Uhmmm... HOW was I protecting Hoppster with that statement? I was saying that we would gain information from a mothrax lynch, SUCH AS etc...

Plus, if you KNOW you're TOWN, and I said IF you're SCUM

Hoppster CAN'T be SCUM

... therefore with your supposed "TOWN flip" how would I be protecting Hoppster (in a supposed scenario where Hoppster and I are both evil and know you're town) who suspicions would be cast upon if you flipped town since he's been gunning for you all game.

That's just bullcrap if you ask me.

Unless you're actually SCUM, and you're saying that your scum flip would give Hoppster town points, in which case I was protecting him... but you'd have to be scum in order for your theory to make any sense.

Unless I'm reading this incorrectly, since it's 2:00 in the morning where I am, but I don't think I am. I think you just slipped up and gave yourself away.

I need to go back and check the vote count, but if I'm not hammering you right now, I'll be switching my vote back to you and leaving it there for probably the remainder of the day.

How about you give us some feedback from the game you just read up on? So, right now, from your posts, your two top suspects are Hoppster and myself? For what reasonings? And there's nothing else of value to comment on in the game? Oh, but we should just trust you because you've now come in and claimed you're town, even though admitting that it was more likely scum behaviour rather than town behaviour from your predecessors for the past 38 pages. AND saying "yeah, this is what a scum would say, I know" doesn't give you townie points, by the way.

thunderwielder · Post Post #962 (isolation #85) » Fri Sep 23, 2011 7:06 pm

UNVOTE: Tragedy
VOTE: DeltaWave

If my sarcasm in my last post upsets you, I apologize. I'm tired and I've had a long night at work dealing with incompetence. It doesn't change the fact that you're scum and gave yourself away, but I know my words have upset people in the past, and right now I can't trust myself that I filtered it correctly. I'm pretty sure I filtered it, and my words are tame, but if you have taken offence in a non-game setting, then I apologize.
My vote still stands, however. Especially since you jumped on the Tragedy wagon without announcing L-1 and with only one sentence of reasoning. It just so happens that it's the largest wagon out there, and I think you're using it to try and stay alive.

thunderwielder · Post Post #963 (isolation #86) » Fri Sep 23, 2011 7:08 pm

That should be L-1, guys, just so you all are aware.
When I was counting I miss Quilford's vote, I thought it was L-2. Counting votes at night=bad choice.

thunderwielder · Post Post #964 (isolation #87) » Fri Sep 23, 2011 7:22 pm

Game related, but not game related other question:

should we post in the Queue asking for a replacement for Maruchan? Since Xalxe is away until Sunday, that way semi replacements can start to get caught up faster? I'll defer this to more experienced players in this game, since I'm not sure about rules or if to do so would be be an infringement or anything. I don't see why it would, but figured I should put this question out there rather than just taking the initiative and potentially doing something illegal.
Alright, goodnight everyone.

thunderwielder · Post Post #966 (isolation #88) » Fri Sep 23, 2011 7:34 pm

Okay, I put one up.

thunderwielder · Post Post #971 (isolation #89) » Sat Sep 24, 2011 6:02 am

@Quilford, what are your thoughts on everything right now. I can't really specify anything to focus on, I don't really fucking know WHAT I want to hear, I'd just like to hear maybe some more input from you.

@Delta, okay, maybe you misread, maybe you're now covering. I don't know for sure. I think it was pretty obvious what I said, and no where in that post did I use the word 'town'. The fact is, that you've provided more scumpoints against yourself than anyone else. Your suspicions of Hoppster, in my opinion, is pretty unfounded--because townies vote for townies. That's how we get mislynches. You said yourself that what Mothrax was doing seems scummy, so why is Hoppster scummy for voting for him? I think you've chose the largest wagon to be your biggest suspect, the second largest wagon to be your second suspect, and then the main contributor to votes and cases against you to be your third, just because you needed a third. I don't buy that you're giving your opinions on who to lynch, I think you're just trying to get by on popular demand and a little discrediting for good measure.
If you're town, sorry--but playing the "If you really want to lynch a townie, go for it" card is not helpful nor is it conducive to finding and lynching scum. It's just throwing out the "you'll regret this, don't say I told you so" card, which is null (because everybody seems to play it).
You SHOULD worry about earnie townie points if you're town. That helps us NOT mislynch you. But, since I'm now really sure you're scum, I'm not too worried about it.

thunderwielder · Post Post #972 (isolation #90) » Sat Sep 24, 2011 6:11 am

EBWODP

Hi Imaginality. Thanks for coming in. Sorry if I stepped on your toes at all.

thunderwielder · Post Post #975 (isolation #91) » Sat Sep 24, 2011 7:40 am

DeltaWave wrote:It sounds like you had already made up your mind about Mothrax before I replaced in.

Nope.
Very wrong.
Very VERY wrong, and very much a misrepresentation.

If you'll notice, I was more inclined to a Tragedy lynch until you came in.

You're

what's convincing me to keep my vote on

you

and to keep it there. Now you're deliberately trying to put words in my mouth, and make it seem like anything I said about you wasn't about you and was about Mothrax. I suggest you read the post you

JUST QUOTED

. Because you'll find that I was making a case about YOU, not about Mothrax. What makes Mothrax so much more scummy than Tragedy? You do.

What's the difference between "newbtells" and scumtells? You're passing off scummy behaviour as newbiness. Like RoboThor(The Robo head, I'm pretty sure) said before--this isn't a newbie game, therefore I don't buy "newbtells." I worked my way up until I felt I was competent enough to find scum in an open game, not just a newbie game, I expect anyone who's joining this game to have the same amount of confidence in themselves as I do. You're trying to pass off previously bad behaviour as newbiness, while contradicting yourself, and putting words in my mouth.
All of this reeks of scum.

With that said, it sounds like you're very entrenched into a Mothrax lynch

NO.
I am "entrenched" in a

DeltaWave

lynch. The actions of your predecessors certainly do not help you, but they are not the entire reasons to vote for you. They may comprise half of the reasons, probably less. But make no mistake, I am not voting for "Mothrax", I am one hundred percent voting for "DeltaWave." There is a distinct difference--one which you're trying to alleviate yourself of any responsibility.
If you're SO CONVINCED Tragedy is the right lynch, and that you are "definitely town", the WHY are you rolling over and saying "lynch me, I guess" and spending more time defending yourself than pushing your main suspect? Your biggest case on Tragedy can be summed up in "I agree with Amrun--Tragedy's actions are deliberate and scummy." Let me know if I've missed something there. Spoiler alert, I haven't.

Personally, I'm very okay with a hammer right now. If Maruchan is a scum, it gives the scum less input in the night if the replacee doesn't get caught up quickly. If he's town, the replacee will at least have the night to get caught up and we can keep this game moving.

thunderwielder · Post Post #977 (isolation #92) » Sat Sep 24, 2011 8:52 am

In post 976, DeltaWave wrote:I'm saying that Mothrax's "active-lurking" and his waffling
1)was apparently a sign of newness
or a sign that he didn't have much time on his hands to participate. After all, he got replaced. My point is that I can't change that, I can only explain it... and
2)you're voting for me because, apparently, that isn't enough.
This makes me wonder, perhaps you are scum and you know that I'm town, so you are really excited for this?

3)
I wonder why you are encouraging a hammer right now. The deadline isn't for a while. What's got you in such a rush? Perhaps you are scum looking for an easy town kill? I find it very, very, very scummy that you are looking to rush this. If I get lynched, I hope other people see it too, after they see my flip.

UNVOTE Tragedy

VOTE Thunderweilder

Hurr de durr, okay, let me break this down for you.

1)You can't just say Mothrax was "apparently a sign of newness" without backing anything up. I think you also might need to look up the word apparently. You need to use logic in this game, and explain reasonings. We are not all privy to your "town role PM." Therefore, you need to convince us of such, if you are town, in order for the town to win.

2)I'm

NOT

voting for you because of Mothrax's actions. DID I NOT MAKE THAT CLEAR IN MY LAST POST?? This link will direct you to the top of this page. And you can once again read what you have failed to read. tl;dr You are trying (badly) to discredit a case against you, and chalking all the votes up to the behaviour of your predecessors.

3)Hmmm. Yup. You caught me. I am scum and I want to quick lynch you right now because I am very very very (ooh, three very-s, I MUST mean business here) insecure that the town will see the error in their ways (thanks to your stone cold logic, reasoning, attention to detail and general all-round town based behaviour) and unvote you and vote out my THREE scum partners, Tragedy, Maru--- wait... wait a minute... so there are now four scum in play too? If I'm now scum, who get's taken off your other scum list?

NOPE

Because I've already addressed this as well. I'm convinced YOU are scum. I also have my suspicions that Maruchan could be scum (see my previous posts), and if you get hammered right now, there might be only one scum left to worry about. In an ideal world. Who wouldn't have anyone to consult with during the night phase, and then would have less chance of taking out our other power role. So.. yeah, already answered that one too, buddy.

You're grasping at straws here, throwing out vague inane questions with the attempt at incrimination, voting for anyone who presents a case against you (I suppose I'm replacing Hoppster on your scummy list, since I'm obviously driving the mislynch of an "Obvious townie" -- which the only evidence of such is your word and the strength of your moral character), and are flailing and trying to get the pressure off anyone but you for the flimsiest of reasonings.
Really? I trumped your top three scumreads by saying "yeah, I'm okay with a hammer". Making you move your vote off of your BIGGEST SUSPECT, on to someone whom you hadn't even mentioned before (well, you did, but that was when you were busy misquoting me). Those must have been some pretty weak fucking reads. Or one huge fucking scumslip on my part. And I said I was okay with a hammer, not "somebody lynch this guy right right now before he can say ANYTHING to change our minds." There's a difference. Again, one that you seem not to be able to grasp.

So we can lynch you, and probably get our first scum. Or we can lynch the four scum that you have found... I think I'm going to go with lynching you.

Oh, And it's Thunderwielder. I before e. Just saying. I don't weld thunder. Although that could be pretty wicked.

thunderwielder · Post Post #979 (isolation #93) » Sat Sep 24, 2011 9:48 am

Ahahaha. I actually just laughed out loud.

How about you respond to Hoppster's case about you, answer me why THOSE are newbie mistakes, then answer my other questions, such as who your top reads are, and why I have jumped over them, plus maybe presenting a case (how about you analyze me in total and convince everyone that I'm definitely scum) on me, or on anyone that you've "suspected" thus far. Oh, by the way, a case, needs more than one point to see it home, savvy?

Maybe respond to things, make cases, play the game, and then I might start taking you seriously.

Yeah, Hoppster's on your scumlist, for the only reason that he voted for you. AKA, anyone on your scumlist, you should be comfortable voting. That's how most people play the game. Unless they're just making up scumlists with no reasoning behind it. Yup. I think that about sums it up.

Oh, and

I think that it's self-evident that lurking may be a sign that he was too busy to play.

hardly represents all the reasons that Mothrax could have replaced. Speculation on replacement is just silly. And this IS NOT THE CASE AGAINST HIM. Maybe read the thread, and then you might be able to make sensible points.

thunderwielder · Post Post #988 (isolation #94) » Sat Sep 24, 2011 9:08 pm

In post 981, DeltaWave wrote:
In post 979, thunderwielder wrote:Ahahaha. I actually just laughed out loud.

How about you respond to Hoppster's case about you, answer me why THOSE are newbie mistakes, then answer my other questions, such as who your top reads are, and why I have jumped over them, plus maybe presenting a case (how about you analyze me in total and convince everyone that I'm definitely scum) on me, or on anyone that you've "suspected" thus far. Oh, by the way, a case, needs more than one point to see it home, savvy?

Maybe respond to things, make cases, play the game, and then I might start taking you seriously.

Yeah, Hoppster's on your scumlist, for the only reason that he voted for you. AKA, anyone on your scumlist, you should be comfortable voting. That's how most people play the game. Unless they're just making up scumlists with no reasoning behind it. Yup. I think that about sums it up.

Oh, and
I think that it's self-evident that lurking may be a sign that he was too busy to play.
hardly represents all the reasons that Mothrax could have replaced. Speculation on replacement is just silly. And this IS NOT THE CASE AGAINST HIM. Maybe read the thread, and then you might be able to make sensible points.

Nice back tracking. First you claim that I vote against anyone who makes a case against me, then you revise it. Right.

You keep saying that I'm mischaracterizing the case against mothrax. Okay, what points would you specifically like me to address?

Delta, I'm having a hard time believing that somebody can be truly so dim. Your responses are reminding me of a petulant child--lots of backtalk, very little substance.
Did you or did you not have the intent to vote for Hoppster

eventually

when you listed him as one of your top three suspects? I consider votes on someone and "this person is scummy because etc and that's I consider them to be a likely candidate for a Mafia person" pretty much the same thing. Why are they different? Both times, you are voicing an opinion.
Right now, I feel as though you are trying to boil this argument down to semantics. You are trying to push any substance away by being passive aggressive. And by not answering anything that really matters.

Oh, and the stuff I'd like you to address. READ MY FRACKING POST AGAIN. And if you still don't understand what you're supposed to respond to (hint, it's the second sentence), then ask me again.

thunderwielder · Post Post #989 (isolation #95) » Sat Sep 24, 2011 9:10 pm

Oh, and welcome Cephrir, thanks for joining us!

thunderwielder · Post Post #990 (isolation #96) » Sat Sep 24, 2011 9:12 pm

EBWODP
Another question for you to answer is: Why is Hoppster on your scumlist? If he isn't anymore, why WAS he on your scum list.

thunderwielder · Post Post #1001 (isolation #97) » Sun Sep 25, 2011 5:30 pm

Why not Delta, Quilford? Can you give us some reasonings behind those three? Right now, although I've appreciated you subbing into the game, you haven't given us much analysis.

And Delta, the reason why I didn't write out every single point of Hoppster's case, is because you can just go and look at Hoppster's case and then respond to it. ALL of it. I can't guarantee that I won't claim you're mis-interpreting it (because you might, and then I'll call you on it), but so long as you respond to all of it, then we're good. (Also, why would you be worrying that I'll say you're mischategorizing it--or whatever word you used--because wouldn't that just be more scum points against me? If I try to sway everyone's view {unjustly} towards you through Hoppster's case? Presumably I'd be lying, and then you could call me on it, and everyone would see the evil for which I really am).
Then you can also answer the other questions I posed to you, in the second sentence of that post that I told you to read and answer, which you didn't.
And then you can also answer that other question that came after that post, in my edit, after welcoming Cephrir to the game.
I'm not going to repost it because a)I'm going to bed, and b)I don't feel like wasting my time and cluttering up the board with things that have already been said, asked for repeatedly, and you still seem to need clarification. I don't think I'm the one stalling.

2) I'm sorry if I've hurt your feelings. Remember that time when I said don't take my sarcasm personally? And then you've now taken it personally and have called me insulting? Yeah, don't take it personally. I'm not name calling. I'm calling you out on being obstinate to the point of being blind about everything else around you, and not realizing that you're not making sense, and haven't been responding to my questions but have been avoiding them.

If you really don't know what to respond to... respond to Hoppster's tl;dr. Those are "specific points" there for you. Also my other questions (hint, found in the second sentence of that other post). And the EBWODP question I posed. As well as other questions that other members of our lovely town have asked you.

Your other point on me is as bogus as your first one, by the way. It doesn't matter that you're scum. I still want your opinion. I still think you should give your opinions and your reasonings behind those opinions. If your town, the reasons for that should be obvious. If you're scum, the reasons for that should be obvious. I'm not going to spell it out for you.
Oh, and remember when you bring up that I'm hoping someone will come and hammer. Yeah, you're at L-2 now buddy, so that point kind of becomes moot doesn't it. Check your time frame. It's incorrect. So quotes like this

Now, are you going to provide an allegation for me to address or are you going to keep putting that off and hope that someone hammers soon?

are now just fishing for pity and misrepresenting the situation to better your own spot.
And I've also provided you with things to respond to. Others have asked you questions now as well. It's not my job to spoon feed you, darling. I've brought up the cases and points you should address. I'm not going to make you a rubric as well.
I think Cephrir put it best, when he described you as a scum implosion.

thunderwielder · Post Post #1013 (isolation #98) » Mon Sep 26, 2011 5:45 am

Delta, are you not even reading this freaking game? Here's a question I'll pose to everybody else. Are you pretty sure you can identify Hoppster's case on Mothrax? Considering he posted it again two fucking pages ago.

Really?

My "stalling" is this? I write a lot. But what I write, I try to make it my own opinions and responses to things, rather than stating the fucking obvious.
Delta, read the fucking game, okay buddy? Now you're actually starting to annoy me. Check the TOP of page 39. You had already replaced in. Hoppster came out saying "Why has nobody corrected RoboThor--remember my cases?"

But since apparently you can't figure anything out unless is directly on the post in front of you, here you go. A Link To Hoppster's post.
Here's another question that you haven't answered.

thunderwielder wrote:What's the difference between "newbtells" and scumtells?

And another

thunderwielder wrote:Really? I trumped your top three scumreads by saying "yeah, I'm okay with a hammer".

And another

thunderwielder wrote:How about you respond to Hoppster's case about you, answer me why THOSE are newbie mistakes, then answer my other questions, such as who your top reads are, and why I have jumped over them, plus maybe presenting a case (how about you analyze me in total and convince everyone that I'm definitely scum) on me, or on anyone that you've "suspected" thus far.

And another

Thunderwielder wrote:Did you or did you not have the intent to vote for Hoppster eventually when you listed him as one of your top three suspects?

And another

Thunderwielder wrote:I consider votes on someone and "this person is scummy because etc and that's I consider them to be a likely candidate for a Mafia person" pretty much the same thing. Why are they different?

And another (here's the one Cephrir's talking about)

Cephrir wrote:Have you legitimately seen nothing scummier in the entire game than thunder's three posts between 969 and 976?

And another

Cephrir wrote:Also, DeltaWave, you can hardly accuse someone else of being evasive, you've ignored so many direct questions.

(That one's in the post above, but just in case you missed it.)

Now on to a response for your... one... question... that is obvious.

DeltaWave wrote:You should also answer the question I posed to you, about why it's an improper inference to say that someone who was actively lurking was not scum because they were replaced and therefore were not fulfilling their wincon.

Yup, it's terrible logic, because it's impossible to speculate on replacements. If that were the case, Mr. Trow, for example, replacing people who never freaking post, and Tragedy, for another example, replacing the lurky Auckmind would be immediately considered Town as well. And I see you have them both on your scum list.
The fact is, we don't know why people replace. We only know they don't have time to play the game. And if you don't have time to play the game, whether you're town, scum, or another party, you're going to not participate. Real life does take precedence over an online game, even if you are Mafia...
Therefore, yes, this inference is very wrong.
Or I guess you have to call Mr. Trow and Tragedy town. Plus probably Hoppster, since he replaced NihilisticNinja, Cephrir for replacing Maruchan, yourself for replacing NS/Mothrax, and Quilford for replacing Supreme Overlord. Uh oh guys, looks like we found our scum. Thunder, Robo, and Amrun--because they're the only ones that didn't replace out. (This is some sarcasm for you. Don't just address this part of my post, and try to sweep under the rug the rest of what I said--or you can point out the flaws in the argument, and be known as a hypocrite. Up to you).

Thanks very much for wasting my time, darling.

DeltaWave wrote:Anyway, I see Hoppster as pushing for the lynch of a townie with very little hard reasoning while there are other people like Tragedy who are obviously scum.

Again, read responses to this. You're not a townie, for one. If you were, Hoppster wouldn't be scum still, because he DOES have hard reasoning, which, if you bothered to pay attention to things directed at you, rather than throwing them under the rug and claiming you don't know where they are or what to respond to, you would know that there is a case.

And one last thing

In post 1011, DeltaWave wrote:
In post 1010, Quilford wrote:Doesn't matter whether I've played longer ganes, it matters whether I've replaced into longer games.

Also MrTrow just scumslipped pretty badly so I suggest you focus on that.

According to the Pick your Poison wiki page, it looks like there are 3 mafia goons.
I suspect Thunder, Tragedy and MrTrow as the scumteam. That would make the most sense to me.

I put the emphasis on the above. Can anyone (you too Delta, another question here) tell me what's the point of saying the bolded? Pretty sure we've all been playing the same game. Pretty sure we all know the schematics. Pretty sure

Delta

knew the schematics when he gave us his top three suspects. So what is the point of saying this?

In my opinion, it's to give his slot "newbie points" that he's been fighting for all game. The "Oh, hey guys, I am only now getting to know the setup" or "Guys, look at the research I've been doing" OR "Hey guys, I didn't know there were 3 scum because of my scum role PM, I only know it because of the wiki page. Phew. Thank goodness that was there!"

@Quilford I have more compelling evidence against Delta than I do Mr. Trow.
There was a conversation earlier Quilford (I believe Maruchan might have looked into it) saying that there has never been a PYP game without the scum choosing Doc/Roleblock. Mr. Trow was around for that.
@Everyone That post does convince me further of Quilford's townieness, though, because he's making sure that all the options are covered.

thunderwielder · Post Post #1027 (isolation #99) » Fri Sep 30, 2011 5:09 am

So we know Quilford is confirmo town (unless we get a couter claim).

I have major townie vibes from Hoppster.

I used to have major townie vibes from Amrun until that hammer. So you only read up to page 40, and not page 41?

Cephrir's slot used to be pretty scummy, but Cephrir's been pretty town thus far--making me somewhat inclined to call Maruchan's flailing, just... Maruchan-isms.

somewhat

inclined, mind you.

Mr. Trow, since he isn't the roleblocker, could have made a slip yesterday. That, combined with Quilford's slot finding him suspicious enough to roleblock him twice, and with the other reads I have on everyone, makes me think he's one of the three. PLUS, we DID have a no Kill night one. And Saulres hasn't been breadcrumbing any save results. Maybe Supreme Overlord got lucky. It would make sense, having the kill come from a lurking slot, because not a lot of people would remember/suspect that slot.

And Tragedy (who only Mr. Trow has defended as townie thus far, correct me if I'm wrong) is waay up there on my scumdar. I wish Delta hadn't been such a tard and we had lynched her yesterday.

Right now I see the team as
Mr.Trow/Tragedy/Cephrir
OR
Mr.Trow/Tragedy/Amrun

thunderwielder · Fri Sep 30, 2011 5:10 am

EBWODP
Amrun, that's a real question in my last post that I would like you to answer.

thunderwielder · Fri Sep 30, 2011 6:59 am

My question, Amrun, was just because you wrote "Tragedy is voting me" when the third last post on that page was Tragedy unvoting you. And then there was the votecount. So I could envision a situation where you would hammer Delta, and then pretend like you didn't see it... but then again, Delta was almost for sure lynched yesterday, and I don't doubt that your early vote changed the outcome that was already set in motion.

I am also leaning towards voting Mr. Trow. It's between him and Tragedy, obviously, as per my scum team predictions, but with the added bonus of the potential (and actually, fairly likely) roleblock on day 1, he would be where my vote is headed too. I agree that he is currently our best bet.

thunderwielder · Fri Sep 30, 2011 8:23 am

Hmm. But that would mean, you only read up until page 39, because on page 40 Tragedy unvoted you, and page 41 Trow put Delta at L-1. But, on the bottom of page 39, it's your post, so you would have had to have read page 40, where Tragedy unvotes you. Something isn't fitting with your story. So IGMEOY. But definitely not for today. We need to focus on the scumminess at hand and make sure we live to the next day.

So Trow and Tragedy... make your cases. OR counter claim Quilford.

Hoppster, now that your Mothrax case has fallen flat, where to next?

thunderwielder · Fri Sep 30, 2011 5:55 pm

You keep mixing up Tragedy and DeltaWave, Amrun. I don't know if that's where your wording keeps going off on me.

Tragedy, I'm confused by your statement "Assuming Trow was roleblocked, he WOULDN'T be the top of scum list." Is this saying that if Mr. Trow was blocked on the first night, he's not scum? Or that if he was blocked, he is scum? I don't quite understand your reasonings, or your wordings. Some clarification on this would be nice.

Mr.Trow, you're now continuing to lay low. Is this a strategy of yours? Are you scum, you can be honest with us, we all appreciate honesty...

thunderwielder · Sat Oct 01, 2011 9:52 am

Hmm. I forgot about Tragedy vs Amrun. With this being the case, and considering they are going after each other when it's Lylo, I hardly think that there is a possibility of them both being scum. In this case, I'd have to say Amrun is still looking slightly more town than Tragedy, but really I'm pretty sure I'm holding that gut from a while ago. But I don't see the benefit of the scum trying to bus each other in Lylo, so for now my scum team prediction has switched back...

Actually, I don't know what the fack I'm saying right now. I guess scum can still bus each other. It's not like they're throwing down any votes, anyway. Now I'm just rambling, sorry guys, it's been a long day.

I guess what I'm trying to say, or ask, or figure out, is a list of everyone's reads. Now is no longer the time to hold anything close to the chest. We need to be upfront and figure out who suspects who and why.
Tragedy, would Amrun be your top suspect?
Amrun, who is your top suspect? You said you were leaning Mr. Trow before (unless I'm misremembering), does that still stand?
Mr. Trow--Where ARE YOU?
Quilford, if you're able to respond to this, who's top on your list--you're the only confirmo town right now, so you need to step up and lead us in a good direction. We all know we can trust your opinion (unless Trow magically counterclaims), so please don't hold back with it.
Hoppster, any new leads? How do you feel about everyone right now?
Cephrir, who's top suspect for you? Second top?

Let's start some dialogue. Because if we keep not dialoguing our deadline's just going to come up, we'll mislynch quickly or not lynch at all, and lose this game. Now, more than ever, we need to get things cooking.

thunderwielder · Sat Oct 01, 2011 9:53 am

EBWODP
@Tragedy's post above mine.
I guess I can see where you're coming from. In a way, this is a kind of buddying, yes? Buddying with a dead player (who's confirmed town) to seem more town? Is that what you're hinting at?

thunderwielder · Sat Oct 01, 2011 7:35 pm

Mr.Trow wrote:How are you still keeping this up?
How do you know i`m not the roleblocker unless you`ve noticed the point (i attacked delta for 'assuming/knowing there was no roleblocker', if not this what gave you the 'he isn`t the roleblocker')

Keeping what up? I'm confused by this question.
I assumed Delta made the slip yesterday -- I assumed wrong.
The point was brought up yesterday that perhaps YOU slipped up. Since the Delta slip was actually not a slip, the inverse of Delta's slip, which he purposed was your slip, must hold some legitimacy.
How do I know you're not the roleblocker? Is this a serious question? Are you going to claim roleblocker right now? Then you're not the roleblocker...

thunderwielder · Sat Oct 01, 2011 7:40 pm

EBWODP
@Quilford--okay, so you don't think you performed the roleblock, but is Trow still on your scummy list?

I would like everyone's opinions on Mr. Trow, please and thank you.
And, yes, there is a method to my madness.

thunderwielder · Mon Oct 03, 2011 6:00 am

Mr. Trow, I'd like to ask you a flat out question (since you seem not be reading the thread): are you the roleblocker? Or are you the cop? Are you one of these two roles, or are you vanilla townie? Because if you're one of the two roles, then all suspicion will fall from you and we can get along catching the scum, right?

Yeah, my argument does make sense, and I'll answer it very simply after you answer this question.

thunderwielder · Mon Oct 03, 2011 6:02 am

EBWODP
(fack, I'm sorry for doing this constantly)

I like Cephrir's post. It also lends more townie-ish points to his slot, since scum wouldn't feel the need to start to move things along. Then again, he might be bussing his two partners, and hoping to make his way to the end. I need to re-read Maruchan. I need to re-read everyone, actually. I've been really busy as of late, hence my lack of usual walls, haha.

thunderwielder · Mon Oct 03, 2011 6:04 am

Sorry for the Triple Post

Mr.Trow wrote:To answer your question regarding Tragedy: Yes, the auckmid read + catchup-speed still hint to no scum-qt or no scum-intent, i will go into my (after dinner) reread with tragedy as more likely to be town

Not necessarily. It only means she didn't pay attention to who she was replacing. I think it has no bearing on alignment, only we can assume that if Tragedy is scum, she either intended to bus scumbuddy Amrun right from the gate (silly, in my opinion), or she didn't know who she was replacing and wanted to throw in a vote as soon as she could.

thunderwielder · Mon Oct 03, 2011 2:04 pm

Well, no one needs to counter claim since Mr. Trow hasn't claimed yet...

thunderwielder · Mon Oct 03, 2011 2:48 pm

In post 1079, Amrun wrote:What?

Just... trust me. I'm not crazy.

thunderwielder · Tue Oct 04, 2011 5:30 am

Okay, for the sake of talking (still waiting on a direct answer to my question, Mr. Trow--but until then)

I'm going to put out why I believe at least one of Tragedy and Mr. Trow are scum, if not both of them.

For one, they have never really looked at each other in a negative light, which could mean anything, but yeah.

If Mr. Trow and Tragedy are BOTH NOT scum this means that Amrun, Cephrir and Hoppster must be the three scummy people. I cannot believe this. There is no possible way that that is true.
If Mr. Trow and Tragedy are scum/town or town/scum, this means that out of Amrun, Cephrir and Hoppster, there are TWO scum there. Again, I have a really hard time believing this. I suppose it could be possible, but if it is, the scum certainly have me fooled right now.
If Mr. Trow and Tragedy are BOTH scum, it means that only one of Amrun, Cephrir and Hoppster are scum, which I can believe, but I can't figure out which one the scum would be yet. Other than if Tragedy is scum, there is no way for Amrun to be scum.

So my vote is going to go to one of Mr. Trow and Tragedy.
Now to consider a pros and cons list! (everyone cheers--How I met your mother reference)

With Mr. Trow,
we have 50% potential roleblock the first night.
Also, the "knowing there was a roleblocker" slip--which I will explain why that slip still matters after Mr. Trow answers my question

With Tragedy
we have the whole voting Amrun because her name came first alphabetically and now sticking obstinately to that vote
If Tragedy is our scum, and we lynch her, we can essentially clear Amrun and make things much easier for us.

This is my dilemma. Thoughts on these points? Which is a more compelling argument?

For me, I'm leaning towards Mr. Trow, regardless of the benefits of lynching Tragedy and getting a confirmo Amrun. I think the 50% chance is a good a chance as any we're going to get. I disagree with you Quilford--I agree that it's a possible scenario, but it's not necessarily the most likely scenario. I don't understand the decision to kill RoboThor, certainly not twice--unless they were determined to "finish what they started" so to speak. He was slowly not participating into nothingness. That being said, I think speculating on why the Mafia killed someone in the night is usually detrimental to the town's health. I'd rather go with a 50% roleblock rather than a "well, maybe this happened." We KNOW that Trow was roleblocked the first night. We have no idea who Saulres protected.

thunderwielder · Tue Oct 04, 2011 6:08 am

More on Mr. Trow (after doing a brief ISO)

ISO #1 (post 378)
Points out a flaw in Maruchan’s playing, and then votes for Nobody Special for only inactivity. The votes were tied at that point, yet he chooses to vote for the player who is least likely to defend himself.

ISO 3 (post 669)
Makes a three point list of every player (as per request) and ends up voting Maruchan at the end. The largest wagon at that point as well.

In his first three posts, he jumps on the bandwagon twice, and lays down two opportunistic votes.

Okay, I’m simultaneously trying to do Tragedy and Mr. Trow

TRAGEDY point – the first post is really just bad. It really DOES seem like you were trying to lay down a vote just for the sake of “finding someone scummy”. But, then again, that could be just “try to find everyone scummy and see who’s the scummiest” sort of behaviour. I don’t know.

TRAGEDY – The Auckmind thing is null. It’s not telling in itself. If she had put him as scum, it would be weird, and if she had put him as town, it would be probably scummy, but the null aspect just indicates she didn’t know who she was replacing. Also, the QT point is invalid to support an automatic Tragedy point, because I was just reading through a game, and looking at the QT at the end some people didn’t use their forum names, but used nicknames. I think it might have actually been the game Tragedy just posted the link to, now that I think about it.

Oh, in other news, a MR. TROW point – Mr. Trow pushes a case on Maruchan, until Maruchan is no longer the leading wagon. Then he drops from the face of the earth again.
YUP. And doesn’t say a single thing until Lane is dead.

Then pops back up the next day and continues his tunnelling of Maruchan.
Strike that Tragedy vs Amrun business. I think we can safely say that we could almost clear Cephrir if Mr. Trow pops up scum. So there’s a trade off for either slot now.

Post 853 (TRAGEDY) is interesting because it’s her catchup on Trow – where she says “Trow, nice to see you again. I hate my role because it’s the same as ever.” I think this comment will be important later on down the line for drawing connections. It just sticks out to me, and I don’t know why. This is one of the only comments she made—but even saying that now, I understand the urge to connect with people you’ve played with before, hence my first three posts towards RoboThor.

Post 856 TRAGEDY POINT – This is something I didn’t catch before. When Hoppster asks her “why don’t you throw your vote down for Mothrax?” She responds with that she doesn’t want him quicklynched and that there are already two town players on the wagon (Hoppster, myselft). BUT, she hadn’t yet done her ISO analysis on me at that time, so how would she know I was a town unless she knew who all her scumpartners were?!

this is the biggest thing I’ve found against Tragedy thus far, in my opinion

now she’s back in the running against Trow for my vote.

Post 867 MR TROW – This is the first time he deviates from Maruchan. ISO #21. Just thought I’d note it.

There was the TRAGEDY point brought up about the “prodding Mothrax” right after the Mod had just said “prodding Mothrax.” Just thought I should write this down in summation.

Post 953 MR TROW AND TRAGEDY LINKAGE – Here Mr. Trow announces another L-1 unnanounced thing. But then says he’s not going to move his vote just on that alone, like he did the other time. Why move it for Maruchan, and then not move it for Tragedy?

Tragedy’s catcups near the end are pretty comprehensive, and she’s starting to look townie again. Or townier than Trow, really.

Oh, and I think I just found out why RoboThor was killed last night

Mr Trow in post 954 wrote:I consider a mothrax (now deltaware)-flip as info on robothor because of these 2 instances of 'need to step in to save'.

This was about the link between RoboThor constantly saving Mothrax. A good point. But it means when Delta flipped town, there were more townie points for RoboThor. Interestingly enough, it was Mr. Trow who pointed this out.

And then, the only stuff left to add is the recent stuff. Where I find myself inclined for a Trow lynch over a Tragedy lynch.

In all likelihood, I think they are both Scum, but on the off chance that I’m wrong with that, I think Trow is more scum than Tragedy.

thunderwielder · Tue Oct 04, 2011 4:29 pm

After the recent interactions, I'm leaning towards Tragedy now (again). But this might just be because Mr. Trow is AGAIN avoiding the thread.

But THIS

In post 1095, Hoppster wrote:

In post 1091, Tragedy wrote:
In post 1090, Amrun wrote:So from an ISO skim, you were confident enough to base other reads off of thunder being town?

Other reads weren't based off of thunder being town. My judgements, you see.
In post 1093, Tragedy wrote:
In post 1092, Amrun wrote:Your judgments?

My reads.

You can't make this stuff up.

Makes me laugh.
And I am drawing the same conclusions as Amrun right now.

Hoppster wrote:
In post 1082, thunderwielder wrote:If Tragedy is our scum, and we lynch her, we can essentially clear Amrun and make things much easier for us.

I COULD NOT DISAGREE WITH THIS MORE VEHEMENTLY.

Amrun is looking pretty town in recent posts, but that play by Tragedy upon entering just SMACKS of scum-overeager-busbusbus "ohhey my scumbuddy is first up in ISOs what a great chance to distanceeeeee".

I'll give you this for now. But you're being kind of useless--and perhaps this is making sure that an Amrun lynch can still happen if the scum team is Trow/Tragedy/Hoppster.
It MAY be a valid point, but now that your tunnel target is gone, you need to start pulling your weight and give me more reasons to believe you're townie--because my views on that are wavering from today. I wouldn't say you're scum yet, but I'd say you're working your way down to null.

thunderwielder · Wed Oct 05, 2011 4:57 am

Exactly my point, Cephrir beat me to it. Quilford's claim is prior to 1027, so everything you've said is very moot, and quite scummy.

You were using the argument - oh, How do you know there's a roleblocker/I'm not the roleblocker - to discredit any case against you or any case going back to the potential slip which most people thought was a Delta slip and it turns out actually has a higher probability of being yours.

Let's review what happened.
In your own words this is the Delta slip situation

Mr.Trow wrote:The case of 'my slip' is as follows:
- i point out delta assumes the roleblock will fail, conclude this may mean he knows there is no roleblocker
- then Quilford comes in and quotes the 'roleblock will fail' portion and concludes i`m talking about: the roleblocker will block the wrong person (how would i know there is a roleblocker)
- your #1013 notes this point and shelfs it due to the larger delta-case
- hoppster shows up and clears up quilford`s misread.
- after delta is lynched, you take this slip back from the shelf (even though the point is resolved)
in other words: why do you consider 'my slip' a valid point AFTER hoppster has already shattered the point

Right?
But Hoppster "shattering the point." goes as follows

Hoppster wrote:Mr. Trow's "scumslip" is really not a scumslip at all - rather, HE is pointing out DELTAWAVE'S scumslip.

That's it.
That's all he says.

Which was fine, but now that Delta has flipped TOWN, it is very clear that you were not pointing out a scum slipping up like we initially most thought.

NOW
We know we HAVE a roleblocker, with 100% certainty.
Therefore any slips about us "knowing we Don't have a roleblocker" become invalid
and any potential slips about us "knowing we DO have a roleblocker" become valid again--especially since we're in Lylo and we need to mine any potential slips for all they're worth.
SO, this, combined with a 50% that you submitted the first kill (or your slot did anyway), gives me a high probability that you are perhaps the Droid we've been looking for.

What now

adds to this point,

is the fact that you were still trying to argue "how do you know I'm not the roleblocker" (when you're not the roleblocker) as your reasoning for making your "slip" rather than saying "I thought we had already established that the Mafia would be dumb to put in Doc/Cop" which is more of a townie thing to say. Instead, it seemed like you're leaving your options open, or maybe trying to strike delusion into some of the players (Tragedy, for example, apparently doesn't know someone came out and claimed, and could get confused--in a situation where you and her aren't partners).

[sincerity]PS Sorry for your bad day, I hope it gets better[/sincerity]

thunderwielder · Wed Oct 05, 2011 5:08 am

@Quiford

POST MORE
A LOT MORE.

You're our only confirmo town. You need to be doing a lot more to help us decide who to lynch today, since we can all trust your opinion. I don't know who to trust anymore, and I want your feedback on the Mr. Trow and Tragedy situations. Which one of them do you envision to be more scum? Do you agree with me that one of them HAS to be a scum? If not, why do you have these reads? I know perhaps your internet is down, but we need your input.

thunderwielder · Wed Oct 05, 2011 5:14 am

I don't have objections to you voting. As long as you're around periodically to see if anyone jumps on for really dumb reasons. 1 vote does not a lynch make. It would be pretty hard for the scum to organize a quick lynch anyway, considering there's three of them, and everybody are in different time zones.

Hypothetical question, Cephrir, who would you vote for, if you had to vote right now?

Actually, that hypothetical question can be extended to everyone.

I would probably vote for Mr.Trow. But it's really a freaking tossup.

But yeah, hypothetical vote: Trow.

thunderwielder · Wed Oct 05, 2011 5:16 am

EBWODP

In terms of Trow and Tragedy connections, right now I'm seeing Hoppster. He tunnelled on NS/Mothrax/Delta for three days, and now has nothing else to say. He also finds Trow null, and is not taking a stance on much, leaving himself open to switching. I don't know, I could be very offbase with this, because I've found Hoppster town for the whole game, but, like I said before, he's gone back in the null running.
My hypothetical vote still stays on Trow, though.

thunderwielder · Wed Oct 05, 2011 7:18 am

In post 1107, MrTrow wrote:Lets see if i got this right.

- thunder knew i was not the roleblocker in #1027 (where he acknoledges the possibility of a counterclaim), while i hadn`t posted yet since the claim (had no chance to counterclaim yet)
- i am to be considered to have scumslipped by pointing to what i considered to be a possible slip, which other townies (right?) have also considered a possible slip just because it turned out to be wrong.

1) I knew that there was no reason for a scum to claim roleblocker, certainly not off the top. Unless they were to No Kill and then pre-emptively claim roleblocker in order to force a quick lynch before the real roleblocker could state the case--but that's the only situation where it seems like it could be beneficial. (Really, what's the scenario here? Does a Quilford scum really need to make a false claim, only to draw a counter claim from the real roleblocker and out himself? I don't think so.)
IE, yes, me calling for someone to counter claim was me hoping that there was a scum out there silly enough to do so, so we could catch one easily.
2) I am only now considering the comment as a slip, since the other slip turned out to be wrong and

more importantly

there's a 50% chance that you are scum (just based upon night actions alone), so I'm following up every lead I can and trying to see if there's scum motivation. I am not completely disregarding the fact that we were wrong about the other slip, but looking in to see if there's any value to the other side of the story. The defensiveness that is starting to present itself is making me think that there is value to the other side of the story.

If i had to vote now: probably cephrir but wouldn`t be surprised if post reread it would be thunder (most of my notes on him were written when i had him as town)

Oh my goodness, I don't know how much more OMGUS I can handle.
I've now started attacking you and trying to trap you, and now I'm magically on your suspicions list. For what reasons, pray? Hopefully for reasons other than I am your largest attacker right now... yeah, I can't see any other reasons either.

thunderwielder · Wed Oct 05, 2011 7:21 am

Hypothetical votecount

Trow (2): Thunderwielder, Amrun
Cephrir (1): Trow

Not hypothetically voting: Cephrir, Hoppster, Quilford, Tragedy

With 7 hypothetical votes, it takes a lot of "this doesn't make any sense" to lynch.

PS Xalxe, great votecount.
PPS this post may or may not have been made just so I could tell Xalxe how much I enjoyed his flavour.

thunderwielder · Wed Oct 05, 2011 8:42 pm

First off, I'd like to say Drunk posting is drunk. Sorry about this. I was bonding with my work peeps.

Second, I'd like to say, Quilford, your argument against Cephrir is similar to Lane's argument about Supreme Overlord (your slot). It wasn't confirmed either way, until Mothrax was dead first (and then we realized that Supreme and Mothrax weren't partnerS).

Thirdly, I shouldn't even be making this post, but I really like this game, and I want to win it. So I have to post so the Mafia doesn't win. Anyway, I think Trow is still our lynch today. Just because of the probabilities. And because his slot was so "not in the game" that it would make the perfect "scum murderer". Yeah.

Hoppster, there's something I disagree with in your statements, probably you saying I'm bringing things too far. I don't really rmemeber. Oh dear. I should stop. I'll get back to it tomorrow. I'm sure I have a rebuttal. You seem to be defending Mr. Trow pretty hard right now. That's all I have to say, I guess.

Oh, one more thing, I don't think Cephrir should take all the blame for voting. I DID say that I would be okay with it. And, actually, there's a point to be made here. I think Hoppster's reaction to it was fairly townish, but there's also reactions to be mined, like, who reacts in what way, and are they telling Cephrir to remove his vote just for townie points? Or for real, in order to keep discussion onwards?

I don't know. And I'm going to stop writing now, because I might be trailing on uselessness. Anyway, more from me tomorrow I think.
Nice to see a flurry of activity, though. Quilford, keep that going.

Oh yeah, the question I meant to ask with the previous points--Why is Cephrir higher on your scummyness list than Trow, if the points of his scuminess rely on Trow being lynched and turning up scum? Aren't YOU kind of assuming that Trow is scum right now?
I think that's a good point, though, about Cephrir and Trow relationship. I need to think more about bussing, and who could be doing it.

thunderwielder · Thu Oct 06, 2011 5:20 am

Oh God. I'm so sorry about that last post. You can disregard most of it. Well, actually, not really, just the rambly, wordy parts.

tl;dr (I'll break it down into better wording)

I still agree with my second point--we're condemning Cephrir for stuff to do with Trow's flip when we haven't seen Trow's flip (although he's so likely to be scum). But right now, at this current moment in time, it is circumstantial.
However, the fact that Hoppster's defending Mr. Trow like it's his job, and Cephrir could be bussing Mr.Trow like it's his job, I think we'll have at least some good reads tomorrow--providing we make it.

Re-reading, I don't like Cephrir's wording on his vote post. I don't mind that he voted--I don't think that there's a problem with the voting, but the wording could seem off.
HOWEVER, there's such a thing as reaction fishing--which I was trying to go for way back when I said everyone give me your reads on Mr. Trow (then I was going to vote for him and see who reacted in a negative light)--this is a technique I picked up in my first game here from Chkflip. I should have listened to him, because he found one of our scums, but, alas, newness prevailed.
Anyway, my point is, I think Hoppster throwing his suspicions on Cephrir right after him voting for a person that most are considering pretty scummy, might be telling, and he could be trying to get the heat off of his Mr. Trow scumbuddy. I don't know. I can't analyze it. The only thing I can take out of it, is that if Mr. Trow is scum, either Hoppster or Cephrir must be scum, but I don't think both--and then I'm still sticking with my tragedy scum.
Basically, what I'm saying, is I find Amrun incredibly town and will probably be listening to her as well as Quilford (gotta start whiddling the suspects down somewhere).

Quilford, why do you have Tragedy on almost the TOP of your town list? I don't understand that.
Oh, shit, I just looked above and saw that I wrote that last night. Ah.. well, I'll leave it in this one, since this is my sober catch-up post.

Finally, I really don't see an other option for the lynch today other than Mr. Trow, since everybody seems to be bringing forth evidence that has to do with his scumflip. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but a whole bunch of the arguments over the last page or two have gone with the assumption that Trow is scum.

thunderwielder · Thu Oct 06, 2011 5:27 am

EBWODP

Sorry, in response to Hoppster's big post on the last page, I would respond, but I agree with Cephrir's responses. Quilford wasn't even on the radar--that's why I figured he was town. If someone like Tragedy had popped up and said "hey guys, I'm totally the roleblocker" it would be more suspicious. But there was no chance of a Quilford lynch, not today anyway, so it doesn't make any sense for Quilford to be Mafia, in this scenario.

Trow, did you answer why you were using the language you used in 1051 (Cephrir's quoted it for me). Why did you keep going on about "how do you know I'm not the roleblocker--give me information prior to 1027" Was it just because you thought I should have given time for a counter claim? (Which I did, by the way, but that shouldn't stop me from giving out other reads, which would change if new information came up, but, yup, nothing did) Did you not believe Quilford's claim? Then why shouldn't I believe it? I feel your posts were still trying to discredit any case being re-brought up against you.

thunderwielder · Thu Oct 06, 2011 7:57 am

Fack, nobody's ever posting when I'm posting. I'm getting tired of it. But that's why I'm always posting in a row.

All I really wanted to say is let's keep this game moving. We have three scum to lynch, and I don't feel like waiting the obligatory 72 hours every time, plus a week for us to hash out the same stuff over again.
Basically, I'm agreeing with Amrun's 1124.

Tragedy, what are your thoughts about what's happening. I hate that I turn the limelight on Tragedy, then she stops posting and Trow starts. And now the limelight is on Trow, and Tragedy has stopped posting. I'm sensing a pattern here.

thunderwielder · Thu Oct 06, 2011 7:32 pm

Trow, I've already actually addressed most of the things you've said. And nothing above actually contains scum points. And even if Maruchan/Cephrir is confirmed scum (there's still the possibility that Maruchan/Cephrir is scum, and I'm starting to think more of a possibility due to Trow's now trying to bus--if they're both scum and both bussing each other, that's a definite way to try and keep one of them alive long enough to win), again nothing you've written up there can point me out as scum either. You're really grasping at straws here.

Let's look at your "connection case" between two players who are yet unconfirmed--more specifically what you've brought up that I have written.
Link 1) You point out that I am calling for out of the box thinking, because we keep on lynching towns - Scum points? No.
Link 2) You put a link to me saying we still need to think about other possibilities, although I don't want the scum to get away. You also point out a place where Mothrax was a L-1 and Maruchan was... at 2 votes... I don't see a link between myself and Maruchan's slot. I see a link between myself and Mothrax's slot. Even still, how is reiterating my point = me having evil intentions? Scum points? Nope, not this one either.
Link 3) Tragedy brought up the point that I was disproving Mothrax's theory about Maruchan. I explained that it was Mothrax's largest contribution to the game thus far, and I was making sure it wasn't bogus but he had good reasoning and wasn't just jumping on opportunistically on wagons. Investigating Mothrax to see if he's scummy = Scum points? Nope, wrong again.

Aaand, the Maruchan quote about blacklisting... I can also read it as "I have Thunderwielder as a townie, and I believe with him that you are scum. So don't get in a huge huff about it, if his accusations are hurting your feelings."
Saying this quote cements "Thunder/Maruchan" scum buddies is reaching. Reaching over the Grand Canyon. Read the argument between Glowball and I again. It was filled with over-emotion on her part, and she started claiming to blacklist me for really no reason other than I was attacking her, and, since she was town, she believed I was an idiot and never wanted to play with me again.

So the sum total of that "connection case" equals.... well, pretty much nothing. And that's even HYPOTHETICALLY in a world where Cephrir is scum (which very well could be true).

Moving on

You case against me solely. (not sure why this one didn't come before the Cephrir/Thunder connecting case--interesting that the two most vocal people about your case are now scumpartners--I know you had Cephrir down before, but still.

What's also interesting is that, when you start going about to paint me as scum, you start with a connecting case between someone who might be bussing you. Do you know Cephrir is scum, which is why you started out this way? Wow, you and Tragedy DO have a lot in common

)

Actually, I'm not sure if this is a case against me (or if you have one other than my pretended connections with Maruchan/Cephrir), but I'll address your points.

1) Okay, I'm not basing my entire case upon you for the slip that I didn't think was a slip and now I'm re-investigating. But that's what you do when people flip ways that you don't expect them to flip. You

re-

investigate

. So I was following up leads, also based upon the 50% chance. And seeing how you reacted. Which has given me more cause to believe that you are scum--reactionfishing, it's a wonderful thing. (No, my sole purpose was not reactionfishing, but it is a very useful by-product)
2) You say self-preservation. I say defensiveness. Not defensiveness in a productive way, but defensiveness in a way that just consists of lashing out. It reads to me more like "Oh, shit, I thought we put that thing to bed, why are people dragging it out again" in a way that's like you're caught, rather than in a way that's bored. Basically, you're reacting too much to it. If it meant nothing (if you were town), you would have brushed it off as if it were nothing. The fact that you KEPT harping about it, means something to me.
3)Thanks for giving me town-cred. But no thanks for mis-representing my case. My case is NOT centred around that single fact. More of it has to do with probabilities.

Which you keep conveniently forgetting to address.

You're focusing SO HARD on the weaker points against you that you're hoping everyone will forget there is a

DEFINITE 50% chance you're scum

. We can't make that up. Either Saulres protected the right person, or Supreme Overlord thought correctly in picking the least active player at the time to roleblock. And since Saulres didn't breadcrumb anything, and we have Quilford's word, I know what I'm putting my money on. ESPECIALLY in a Lynch or Lose situation, I'm going to use every statistical advantage I can in order for us to see another day.

I'm talking about two sort of traps that I tried to do. One was to use you as bait, if you were town, to reaction fish (This one was never put into action, but I was thinking it. Hence my Post 1056 Check my first Newbie game, with Chkflip and Workdawg interactions near the end, pertaining to h3ll0. That's exactly what I was trying to do here, since I've never been in another Lylo, I was drawing from what I know. Anyway, that was one).
THE OTHER was, after you went on about "How do you know I'm not the roleblocker" after our roleblocker had already claimed, to get you (as scum) to miss that vital information and fake claim, so I could catch you in a lie.
"Who's going to buy that?"
Who's going to buy why you were talking out of your butt saying "How do you know I'm not the roleblocker? Give me PROOF--BEFORE post 1027, mind you" when Quilford's claim was in post 1024. Yup. I did believe you were that silly. You talking about the roleblocking today is more of a point that it was yesterday (but again, you've conveniently overlooked that and focused on the easily dismissible).

Oh, and your two links are just as bogus as any of the rest of your "case" against me.
Link 1) I suspect Tragedy and you, and tell both of you to counter claim. Correct. No misrepresentation there. Also, Scum Points? Nope, wrong again.
Link 2) (this was also put here so Amrun wouldn't blow my whole friggin trap) Check your timeframe. EVERYBODY had claimed. So, yup, you're the only one left. The only one who I suspected enough to push this on, especially after you said "How do you know I'm not the roleblocker--give me knowledge of this after post 1027" With Quilford already claiming.
And "timing was Tragedy specific"... really? Tragedy claimed Vanilla Townie, AGAIN, in the post after your first link. I didn't even need to work to find out how terrible your logic was.

So, Mr. Trow. I'll ask again. Are there any other reasons that I'm now your suspect, other than OMGUS. And because I'm your most vocal attacker? Anything at all?.... Yeah, I didn't think so either.

Most logical scumteam
Mr.Trow/Tragedy/Cephrir (Cephrir inches out everyone else because of potential bussing on both sides.
If it was really crazy, it could go
Mr. Trow/Cephrir/Hoppster (I think this scenario is less likely, but who knows. I'm getting weird vibes from Hoppster, but that might just be because he seems to be defending Trow so much).

Either way, my vote's going to be on Trow right now.
But thanks for the large post, Trow (actually). I really like responding to stuff. Bogus as it may be.

PEdit.
Eh, I dislike the first part of the response, but like the second.
First part still feels like it could be bussing, second part seems genuine and makes me doubt my read of the first part.
That's all I'm going to read into about it today, because it's 2:30 in the morning.

thunderwielder · Fri Oct 07, 2011 6:14 am

In post 1152, MrTrow wrote:
@Thunder:
True the N1-RB does make me the logical most likely scum for all non-scumhunters
Also true:

1)
Your statement about 'counterclaims' was to trap is total BS, as your 'since we know he`s not the roleblocker' is just 1 counter-example:
You want scum to counter-claim: but you don`t want me to claim RB or anyone else (At the moment amrun askes tragedy 'are you counterclaiming (come on)') to counter-claim at all

2)
You used the RB-numbers as an answer to 'explain the slip' hiding the detail you can`t explain the slip: BECAUSE there is no slip

As for the connection case:

3)
You steer town in a different direction the moment maru had a (near) 50% likeliness of being the next lynch.
However when that chance has severely dropped you want us to 'not forget the original heading'
Did this combination save Maru`s life: it probably did.

4)
It was 'discredit the witness is a decent tactic':
'discredit the witness' is a scum defence.
'discredit the evidence' is a town one.

5)
a sincere 'please calm down, he`s not an evil person' is not a response one would give to lying scum.

I need to quote this, or I'll get confused answering here.

1) Counterclaim trap - Albeit, it's not a very good trap, but that doesn't make it BS when I started thinking you weren't a good scum (for not reading Quilford's claim). I wanted scum to counterclaim--but I only thought you were the most likely to counterclaim. It wasn't a trap for all scum to fall into, it was something I wanted you or Tragedy to fall into. And since Tragedy claimed Vanilla Townie, and you seemed to not be reading the thread, I then focused my attention towards you. This is not unreasonable. I wanted you to claim roleblocker, and I put it out there in the space as a warning to Amrun to stop talking to Tragedy (who seemed to have missed Quilford's claiming post too, but had already claimed due to pressure).

2)Explaining the slip - I don't want to. I've explained my version of it, I've explained why I investigated into it again today (to leave no stone unturned, to figure out a starting point for the person who was roleblocked on the night we had No Kill). It has henceforth been beaten into the ground. But I'm not using the probabilities as the only reasoning behind it. Frankly, right now, I don't care if it was a slip or not. Hypothetically yes it's a slip, we catch you-perfect. Hypothetically no it's not a slip, your reactions to the increased pressure seem like Scum caught for the wrong reasons, Not Townie trying to dispel faulty information. I don't know how to define the difference (I already sort of have addressed this in my last post), but it's also a gut thing. One could argue the difference between the two is too similar to tell, but at this stage in the game, I have to trust what my gut is saying.

3)When you phrase it this way, I am able to see where you're coming from, but I'm further able to prove why you're incorrect.
a) This case is exactly the same as Lane's connecting case between Mothrax and Supreme Overlord. It doesn't have any value until the first of the pair turns up as scum. But I'll humour you.
b) If we look back at post 884, in the votecount we see that Mothrax was at 3 votes (Hopp, Amrun, Thunder) and Maruchan was at 2 (Mr. Trow, RoboThor). First of all, Maruchan's votecount remained the same until the end of the day. No more pressure was put his way, so I don't think we can call that "nearly". Second of all, if you look at the people who WEREN'T voting they are: Maruchan, Mothrax, and Supreme Overlord. Supreme Overlord being away on V/LA for three weeks, Mothrax in range of getting replaced--certainly not expected, although hoped, to contribute anything productive, and then there's Maruchan, who wouldn't vote for himself. So it's safe to assume that there was not going to be pressure thrown Maruchan's way any time soon either. Again, I don't think we can call that "nearly" either.
We were at a standstill. Hence my prompting to think outside the box.
c)This case links me in the exact same manner to Mothrax. Probably even more so.
d) Either I'm a super master manipulator, and created this ruse just to take the pressure off a suspect (one whom I STILL suspect, by the way--less, though, because of Cephrir--and I'm worried about a playstyle lynch), or this comment which you linked was really an effort to find all the scum, so we didn't just tunnel our way into a loss. You are arguing that only my actions contributed to a Mothrax/Delta lynch, when couldn't you also argue that Amrun's hammer was a way to save Maruchan, because she knew that people would start looking at him in a different light since Cephrir's replacement in and didn't want him to be targeted, so she ended the day early. That's just as bogus of a case, or with as little hard reasoning. Your speculations are being driven by my pressure on you, and you're flailing around to find anything to sling back at me.

@ Cephrir, my suspicions of you come from a connection case to Mr. Trow, in addition to Maruchan's previous erratic playstyle. Less from you bussing him, more from him bussing you. Sorry buddy.

4) Are you talking about Glowball here? And Maruchan's comment saying "Wait to blacklist him?" I'm not sure what you mean here.

5) Why not? I would, if it's interfering with the gameplay, which it was.

What I find amusing is that, if the above is in reference to Maruchan's comment about blacklisting (which I feel was as un-game-related as me telling you that I was sorry your day was bad the other day--he was telling her to move on and play the game, not to harp about how she wasn't going to play the game with someone as terrible as me and therefore end up NOT playing in the current game she was in), then all your points that you've brought up in response against me, have been making connections between two people who haven't flipped, and are therefore moot.
I say all your points, because I can understand where you're coming from in the last two (if I'm interpreted 4 correctly), because numbers 1 and 2 are misrepresentations or selective memories, and I am not giving them any weight, nor counting them in the "points agains Thunderwielder" category, since they are not.

thunderwielder · Fri Oct 07, 2011 9:04 am

Cool cool cool. I'm happy for conversation. I'm happy that you're not just tunnelling, but you're listening. That's nice for a change (not with you, but with the general population of the town--those that have been lynched, anyway)

1) The first counterclaims calls (1027 and 1033) were more of a half-serious half-trying to prompt a false claim half-I didn't think it would really work but it was worth a shot thing. OR, if Quilford WAS actually lying for some reason unknown to me.
When I really started pursuing my plan was after this quote

In post 1061, MrTrow wrote:So either you have deduced i`m not the roleblocker by other means (if so please show me, using things prior to 1027 of course)or you have read my motivation for the delta-slip argument and thus know the base for 'my slip' is incorrect. (in which case, why are you using it?)

Un-game related, but did you know if you highlighted a chunk of text in a large paragraph and then pushed the quote button, it pops up only with that chunk of text? I never knew that, just found it out now. What a lovely feature

So after that post (1061) I thought to myself--holy moly, is this guy serious? That was easy, let's pursue this, and quickly, since he isn't reading the thread properly, or perhaps missed Quilford's claim since it was at the bottom of a page. After that, you can read my train of thought, but 1061 was where I felt the idea could actually come into fruition.

2) I can't really explain the slip. I knew I was grasping at straws, but I wanted to start grasping at something in your general vicinity, and since that was the most recent point brought against you by Quilford, who even voted for you after that, that's where I started it. The 50% comment was to justify my using it as a means to begin an investigation, and then I find the more intriguing bits to be your reactions to that supposed case. So the slip, in itself, doesn't mean much (I think I said this in my last post), but the reactions are what I was interested in more.

3) I don't think I said the word useless--I understand the value of figuring out tentative teams, I've been trying to do so myself. The only reason I brought up that the point was moot, is that I feel your only reasons to find me scummy are me attacking you and some tentative links to Maruchan's slot. I don't believe there has been anything inherently scummy in my play (because I'm the most delicious flavour of ice cream town), and I don't think you've pointed out scummy behaviour on my part, so I feel your whole case on me is directly connected to Maru's slot--which is why I feel it's moot at this current moment in time. I think you're spending more time trying to out me rather than your top suspect, which would out me, so that leads me to believe you could be bussing, and yet perhaps trying to orchastrate a lynch on me before your bus partner in order to win the game.
c) Okay, yeah, I know, and especially since I led the charge against Delta. I'm just saying that there's more reason in the first place that you linked for me to defend Mothrax, and in the second one, since I'm calling for out of the box thinking, in order for a Mothrax link to not happen, and then (in this scenario) leaving myself the out, so if Mothrax were to get lynched the next day, I could say "well, I was trying to get him lynched at L-1, but I decided to go with the majority of y'all" I'm saying it could apply to either, which devalues your linking case a bit.
d) it was a conclusion. I was using that example for emphasis, I didn't really think about the scenario, because I don't believe it exists, and I don't want to waste my time fabricating scenarios, but rather focus on the ones that are in front of me.

4) Okay, I get where you're coming from on this. I can understand the use of language. The only defence here I can say is that I was getting really frustrated (like, flushing furiously at the screen because of Glowball's insolence frustrated), and I'm sure Glowball was experiencing similar emotions for reasons I know not. It was a heated time, and everyone needed to calm down a lot. I had to refrain from posting on more than one occasion, because I knew it would just come out as emotion and I didn't want to escalate the situation any further. Where is that quote located? I was just rereading through, trying to put it in context, but I can't seem to find it. However, if you'll read the argument between Glowball and myself again, you'll find that Amrun was also saying "Thunder is not insulting you, just relax." I feel this is Maruchan's way of telling Glowball to relax. That's what I get out of my interpretation.

5) Because she was tunnelling so hard, and being extremely obstinate, and wasn't doing anything. She wasn't giving out her reads, which, if she had turned out to be scum, would have been useful in terms of tracking down the other scum. Oh dear, re-reading those pages brings back such fond memories...

thunderwielder · Fri Oct 07, 2011 9:07 am

QUILFORD. More input please. As much as that cheer was great, the amount of words in it definitely trumps your contribution over the last couple of pages. Buddy, you're our only confirmo town, and I'm going to listen to you. So speak whatever is on your mind.

Tragedy, your posts are becoming more and more confusing. Next time please answer without a hee heha ahah. I don't get it. Or maybe you could explain it to me? In words other than lame role is lame.

Hoppster, I also value your opinion. Slip aside, can you prove to me why Mr. Trow is town?

thunderwielder · Fri Oct 07, 2011 9:09 am

Could everybody else also supply their hypothetical votes?

Trow (3): Me, Amrun, Cephrir
Cephrir (1): Mr. Trow

Is the above correct? Trow, are you still on Cephrir, or is it a vote for me now?

Tragedy, Hoppster - I'd like some definitie positions right now. Both of you are a little too loosy goosy for me.

Quilford, a position from you would be great, but for different reasons, which is why you're on a different line.

thunderwielder · Fri Oct 07, 2011 9:26 am

Re-reads are wonderful things

(Question, that's not really game related, but Hoppster, could explain what you meant when you came in saying "Spoilers, doing it wrong." Just curious)

Also, in my re-read, I realized two things.
1) We've yet to lynch scum
More importantly 2) this means we've been focussing on the wrong people, right? Especially early in the game?
So 2.5) I have to assume that the scum were flying under the radar--
and
3) this further emphasizes my suspicions of Tragedy and Trow.
also
4)I know it wasn't two things, but I just got carried away with the numbers.

Sorry for posting so much. I don't really have a life right now... actually, I should be out there living it, but.. what can you do, eh?

thunderwielder · Fri Oct 07, 2011 6:38 pm

Oh sorry, this one?

In post 1158, MrTrow wrote:Thunder could you clear this up please?Did you indeed consider 'my slip' a scum or roleblock one?

Uhm, it didn't really matter to me. But it didn't make any sense for Quilford to not be roleblocker after his claim, so then it became scum.

In response to you
1) yup
2)Yup
2/3) To be honest, I was more reactionfishing than anything (if you don't believe me, look to my second newbie game--I did pretty much the same thing to AurorusVox, to see if he'd crack, except he turned up town). And that's why I'm still suspecting you. Although your last points of discussion have I feel done the same thing to you as has happened with me (in your eyes). You've become less scummy, or apparently so. I still can't shake the defensive quality to your first response to my pressure, though (on top of the added 50%).
3 continued) yeah, okay, useless/moot is debatable. But I find moot to mean "subject to debate, uncertainty" and useless to mean "without measure." That's my difference between the two words.
4) The thing that matters here is do YOU believe my case against Glowball was attacking the integrity of her, or the integrity of how she was playing this game. Maruchan has his opinion, but that does not mean it is true, nor what I was doing. I never attacked her integrity as a person, but attacked how she was playing the game and how it was scummy and detrimental to the town. If you can point out specific points where that's not the case, I'll give you this point--but I guarantee you're not going to find any. That's why her rudeness towards me shocked me, and I'm sure that's how she felt at the time (as though I was attacking her personally), but I made it very clear throughout my investigation, that I was not.

@hoppster

thunder and Cephrir have both REALLY been pushing that MrTrow slip way too hard and have both seriously damaged their image in my eyes

Least I've been doing something. What are you contributing to the table? I've been trying to shake things up, considering everything we've done so far hasn't worked at all. If you're confused about reads, why don't you throw out some questions that'll help you figure things out? Instead of just doing nothing.

There can't be four scum, buddy, so you're going to have to figure something out.

thunderwielder · Sat Oct 08, 2011 12:30 pm

In post 1172, Tragedy wrote:Everyone seems so opportunistic on lynching MrTrow and/or I, amazing, no?

How is this opportunistic? Trow was roleblocked night one, and you've been scummy since you replaced in.
I don't think anyone's jumped on you for incorrect reasons, certainly.
If they have, point them out. State more cases.
I do agree that the Mist point is very weak, though. Hoppster not really doing any scum hunting besides protecting Mr. Trow. The slip point is over and done with, it's time to move on and not harp on things that aren't really the issue.

@Trow

In post 1174, Amrun wrote:You've been playing reactively. Nothing in your iso makes me think you are town.

This pretty much sums it up.

You don't offer your opinions unless pressured, and when you did offer your opinions, they were very singular and on larger suspects.
Also, the wording used with "how do you know I'm not the roleblocker." Are off to me, and seem scummy--yes that started my investigation on you, but not only into the slip.
You also have focused primarily on the "slip", and used that as a case for me to be scum--which is just transparent OMGUS. We've already established that creating a case against someone does not make them scummy--or Hoppster would be scummy for his Mothrax tunnelling. You haven't responded in it in a way that's - hey, you're actually mistaken, but that's come out as "hey, you shouldn't be making this case, it's stupid, you must be scum!" Which are hardly the same thing.
All these, plus our Night One, leads me to believe that you are scum, and makes me certain that you're our lynch for today.

thunderwielder · Sat Oct 08, 2011 2:01 pm

yeah, there's no way I'm going to change my mind by Friday. There's just too much evidence not to vote.

VOTE: Mr.Trow

Your two partners can go ahead and bus you now.
I'm getting bored with this game too.

thunderwielder · Sat Oct 08, 2011 5:15 pm

B.T.W thunder: how are you so sure both my partners still have to bus me?

Because Amrun's town.

Me sheeping you?

Yup, because I voted, and then you jumped on it. Ta da.
Before that, your entire "contribution" to a Maruchan case was for quite weak, if not already stated, reasons. Only after the quote you quoted did you start to actually try and provide something. So, yeah, you were sheeping me.

True maru was a main target (the biggest wagon) when i finished my reread, but no new stuff and ONLY on larger suspects?

Two out of your first three posts jumped on to bandwagons. Nuff said.

bored of the game within 30 hours of a good conversation for a change, yeah right

Yeah, right. I think we've hashed out everything we can, and I have all the information I need to be comfortable enough with a vote, so we don't have to hash everything over again. You're scum.

Even this

B.T.W thunder: how are you so sure both my partners still have to bus me?

Is not town motivated. It's meant to discredit me in some shape or form. And it's also meant to sow dissent in the ranks when you're gone--so people say "Oh, he said THIS, MAYBE that means Amrun is scum! He probably slipped up!" and then your scum buddies convince someone to vote Amrun, and then they quicklynch to victory.
This is just a scum tactic of someone who's going down and is trying to keep shaking things up so their partners can possibly win. A good strategy, but not one for town.

thunderwielder · Sat Oct 08, 2011 5:17 pm

In post 1179, Quilford wrote:This game can go to hell.

What are you leaning towards, Quilford? Can you hypo vote for us, if you don't want to lay down an actual vote?

thunderwielder · Sun Oct 09, 2011 3:10 am

Phone posting. So this is short. ( Just got a new phone, so this is even shorter)
But yes,if I said it then, then I probably meant it. Will post more maybe tonight. Going home for thanksgiving.

thunderwielder · Sun Oct 09, 2011 3:29 am

Actually, okay here you go This one and [/url]this point[/url] already address why I felt you were sheeping me. You're just trying to re-hash points that I've already brought up, and say I haven't said anything against them. When you quote things of mine, I'm always thinking "wow, that's a whole lot of stuff I wrote that I can't remember writing" and now I realize that's a whole lot of stuff I wrote that's being taken out of context and only filtered subjectively through the eyes of scum in a last ditch effort to save himself. I'm glad how my quotes don't have post numbers or links but yours do. That's a nice touch.

thunderwielder · Sun Oct 09, 2011 3:30 am

FACK

This is the second one

thunderwielder · Sun Oct 09, 2011 4:12 am

In post 1185, thunderwielder wrote:
I'm glad how my quotes don't have post numbers or links but yours do. That's a nice touch.

I take it back, didn't realize it was from the same place, because when search through my posts I couldn't find it through CtrlF, because they were hidden in spoilers.
Doesn't negate the fact that I already stated your opinions as weak and how I didn't agree with them and that you were sheeping me at the time, but NOW they suddenly carry weight. Interesting how perspectives change when a head's on the chopping block.

thunderwielder · Sun Oct 09, 2011 1:10 pm

Woo!
Good job team!

I'm glad my first time being scum turned out so successfully.

Glad the No Kill plan worked out to something. You're right, Hoppster, we should have No Killed last night too, it would have made everything so much easier. Ah well.

I agree with the Day 4 assessment whole heartedly. It was the first day where I didn't decide who I was going to get lynched before the day began (I thought I'd drive home a Tragedy lynch for our win today), or rather that I changed my mind during the day (other than in the other two where I stated in the QT who I was going to work towards lynching that day). I thought I could push the "roleblock" during Night 1 and have an easy lynch of Trow, so I kind of faked the rest of my case on him. He started responding really well, and started calling out connections between myself and Maruchan that no one had brought up before, and something I had in the back of my mind the whole game, so that's when I felt the need to start to bus. Trying to link both Cephrir and Hoppster to Mr. Trow, but make it so that we'd inevitably have to lynch Mr. Trow and then move on to his hypothetically partner (Cephrir/Hoppster) the next day. I threw Tragedy in there for good measure, but when she stopped really posting, I knew there wasn't a way to get the heat back on her.

Yeah, I know I post a lot of walls, and I'm sure some people didn't read them, but it's only because I like to be thorough. Well, I was always thorough as town, so I didn't want to shift that thoroughness and then be caught through meta.

When Glowball at the beginning of the game brought up the "long walls filled with nothingness" and that she could identify exactly which walls were bogus, that scared me a little bit, so I had to go on the offensive from there. I thought she had caught something in my first couple posts (which were walls) and she mentioned Nihilistic Ninja too (who had posted a wall right before), and then had already gotten Maruchan up to L-2, so that's where my attack on her came from.
No hard feelings, Glowball. I'm really sorry if our exchange hurt your feelings back then--it really was never an intention of mine to insult anyone in this game--my language just comes across abrasively sometimes. It's just how I am in real life--but when I'm really sarcastic in real life, I tend to be incredibly charming with it anyway, so everyone knows not to take offence.
This is again why I was so concerned with Mr. Trow after her started bringing up connections with Maruchan that I had hoped people had forgotten--because I felt like I had linked to him too hard after Glowball targetted him soundly on day 1, and then I worked her wagon up to a lynch.

All in all, I had a really fun time. The replacements were too bad, but you kept the game running pretty smoothly Xalxe, and I thought your moderating was top notch. Nice flavour throughout, each vote count was entertaining, and I loved your lynching scenes.

@Quilford, why did you suspect it was me from Day 1? Were you following the game, and that's where you were watching/asked Xalxe? I'm just curious, because I felt my play was pretty town until this last day, where I threw it into an all or nothing situation.

Most of Mr.Trow's reads were pretty bang on, with the connections or my intentions at the end. Some of them weren't but definitely enough to keep me running scared. I think what did you in, Mr. Trow, is your inactivity earlier in the days. If you had established yourself as a stronger townie force in the beginning (like I feel you were doing in the end), I think we definitely would have had to abandon the attack of you and targeted Tragedy as our mislynch.

Anyway, I guess that's it for me. Thanks for a great first scum game, everybody! I had a lot of fun.

I may or may not take a break from Mafia for a little while--I have now a lot on my plate that I should get in order before venturing back into the forums (it's really not an act, this game kind of consumes my brain), but I hope to see you all around the forums.

thunderwielder · Sun Oct 09, 2011 1:11 pm

EBWODP
Last wall you'll have to read from me in a while, I swear! hahah.

thunderwielder · Sun Oct 09, 2011 1:23 pm

In post 1210, Tragedy wrote:Basically, I'm always the easy lynch. Damn it, hoppy.

We knew Amrun was going for you pretty hard in the previous day, and one vote's all we needed.

thunderwielder · Sun Oct 09, 2011 5:25 pm

Where's the link to the dead QT, I'd be interested in reading it.

thunderwielder · Sun Oct 09, 2011 5:55 pm

Haha, cool. I like Thor's contribution to the thread. I'm glad it could be entertaining to watch from the other side though too!

Alright, good night guys (and lovely ladies).
I'm heading to bed.
I'm going to try not signing on to Mafiascum for a month, see where that gets me in terms of amount of free time amassed.