NY 142: Rolling in the Deep, WAIT WAT? PARTY OVER?!

[Pine]

Vote: Hiraki

Hiraki is always scum.

[Pine]

See? He admits it. Always always.

(<3 Hiraki)

[Pine]

If there's anyone I'd consider PLing in this game, it's you, Beck.

[Pine]

I'm remembering the only other game I played with you, when you were a complete asshat, and how you continue to disrespect the mod of that game by listing it with an asterisk in your wiki page, and blaming your total failure as a Town on a minor mod mistake.

Parama's an excellent player, both as an opponent and as an ally, so despite you meaning that as an insult, I'll take it as high praise.

[Pine]

Where's the link to the game? Also, mods can make mistakes. They're human. They may have inferred it as that. Scum still could have(and probably would have) won if the game was based on the result of one night kill.

@sorgster: It came down to a 2v1 endgame that I easily won. I'd have survived a 3v1 endgame just the same. Mod processed a clear intent to kill a specific person during our Mafia chat because we forgot to take our anti-stupid pills that day and miscommunicated about who was officially submitting it. beck is pouting over a technicality which likely would not have changed the outcome.

[Pine]

Serious note: Can someone explain the proposed lynch on DavidParker? Sounds similar to the attitudes I recall about Deity Kabuto.

[Pine]

I brought up my experience with you being an arrogant, useless, and intolerable player, which led into WHY I thought you were such.

At no point was there any serious suggestion of PLing you. You'll note my vote has not moved off of Hirakiscum.

[Pine]

That's a lynch I can get behind, SV. Thus far, I've seen only aggression and distraction tactics coming out of Beck, and pushing for a nonsensical early wagon on zdenek. I don't get the case on zdenek AT ALL, I've always enjoyed playing with him.

Unvote
Vote: Beck

[Pine]

^Not RVS, serious vote.

[Pine]

Pine The only thing aggressive from me is my scum hunting and i haven't distracted anyone. As for the case on zde, usually when people dont understand things, they would typically ask questions to try and understand. Clearly you have no interest in finding out the reasons or you would have asked about it already.

I don't like slandar's constant attempt to diffuse a wagon on zde, wagons are useful, this one is turning out to be useful.

What scumhunting? Please point out where you have done ANY. The case on zdenek doesn't count, because it's absolutely bullshit. Quit inflating your own usefulness.

@Slandaar: Not understanding a case isn't scummy, it's NOT UNDERSTANDING. And understood the acctual case just fine, I just find it completely weaksauce, and am at a loss to understand how it has built a wagon. Also, Jesters are verboten in Normal games.

[Pine]

Pine The only thing aggressive from me is my scum hunting and i haven't distracted anyone. As for the case on zde, usually when people dont understand things, they would typically ask questions to try and understand. Clearly you have no interest in finding out the reasons or you would have asked about it already.

I don't like slandar's constant attempt to diffuse a wagon on zde, wagons are useful, this one is turning out to be useful.

What scumhunting? Please point out where you have done ANY. The case on zdenek doesn't count, because it's absolutely bullshit. Quit inflating your own usefulness.

@Slandaar: Not understanding a case isn't scummy, it's NOT UNDERSTANDING. And understood the acctual case just fine, I just find it completely weaksauce, and am at a loss to understand how it has built a wagon. Also, Jesters are verboten in Normal games.

Case on zdenek makes a lot of sense.
1.He goes for a serious policy lynch, tries backing it up, then says it was a joke
2.He immediately backs away from it after some pressure starts building up on him.

Case on Beck
My last post showed that his attack on zdenek about policy lynches was bad as he said he would do them himself if a certain person was playing.

This is the only reasonably convincing post I've seen against zdenek. Thank you, sorgster.

UNVOTE: SodaSpirit17
VOTE: Revenus
Town lists are awful. You know who likes finding town? Scum. This is always a red flag for me when someone looks for town over scum.

Incorrect. Town lists can be extremely useful as a way to use the process of elimination to catch scum that are on their game. If you can eliminate people from suspicion, you can focus your efforts on the remaining players.

What you're thinking of is PR-hunting. Town-hunting and PR-hunting look similar to the lazy eye, but they are quite different.

[Pine]

I'm going to tentatively label that a derpTown-slip. NewScum doesn't think like that, NewTown does - NewScum are part of the informed minority, and don't generally care think of or care about that sort of thing.

[Pine]

No, it isn't proof, but in the absence of evidence against him, I'm willing to give him a pass for now.

(See, Beck? This is how one scumhunts. You focus on more than one person at a time.)

[Pine]

Pay attention, ZeL1nK. Proposing a PL and backing off from it isn't what I acknowledged as a good point. By itself, that's nothing. It's the wishy-washy method he used to defend it, then abandon it, then tried to deflect attention from it that carries weight.

I'm enough of an adult to admit that my vote on Beck is partially inspired by my personal dislike of him, and my previous bad experience with him. It is, however, based on his unduly-aggressive, myopic attacks out of thin air, and the lack of scumhunting he's done. There's a lot of fluff in Beck's posts, and he's quite good at spinning his wheels to give the illusion of doing something while actually riding the coattails of others' cases. It's not an especially strong case, but we're still quite early in the game.

[Pine]

I'm on the fence. I find his actions suspicious, but I don't have

any

really solid reads yet. That's what the post-RVS phase of the game is about. Taking your minor leads and putting pressure on the suspect to investigate them.

[Pine]

Yeah...going out of your way to call yourself Town is pretty scummy.

[Pine]

Unvote
Vote: ZeL1nK

The lady doth protest too much.

[Pine]

@Beck: I've been a dick. I'll back off on the personal nonsense if you will.

@Slandaar: How is that "calling myself Town"? Town scumhunts, Scum scumhunts, even third party scumhunts. The only people that don't are people too wrapped up in themselves to do it.

@ThAd: Eh, it isn't a strong case. I don't really see any strong cases yet...I'm starting to think all or most of the scum are amongst the very, very quiet half of the players. It is, however, a pressure vote, seeing if he'll panic and make mistakes that'll give us decent information.

[Pine]

Overly and unduly aggressive play can be seen in a scummy light, as it can be indicative of overcompensation; at this point of the game there's jack all that is solid enough to go after with the aggression you've shown.

I'm interested in a truce here, Beck. Your case on me is crap, as is mine on you. Both are fueled primarily from irritation and OMGUS, and picking every little thing an antagonist says apart. We're wasting a lot of time on each other, and playing right into the "but you're only focusing on me" argument. Walk away from your antagonism against me, and come back to it in a day or so. It doesn't really hold water. I fully intend to heed my own advice in this matter.

@Slandaar: How is that "calling myself Town"? Town scumhunts, Scum scumhunts, even third party scumhunts. The only people that don't are people too wrapped up in themselves to do it.

Scum dont scumhunt, they pretend to scumhunt, you cant genuinely scumhunt when you know who the scum are already.

Scumhunting implies town.

This is WIFOM. The above quote damns me in either direction; on one hand I could respond directly and explain how I feel I've been scumhunting, implying (not outright stating) that I am Town, and you "catch me" labeling myself again. On the other, I deny the tacit accusation, and "admit" to not scumhunting. This is an example of early confirmation bias on your part; you've already decided how you want to view me, so you don't actually engage in argument and investigation, you just blather seemingly-clever lines like the above and then go "Aha!"

Also, scum DO "scum"hunt. Speaking from plentiful experience as a member of mafias past, in these large games, the number one concern on their minds is hunting for slips and evidence of third party threats, an opposing team, and Town PRs. If you're going to try to claim that wise scum just sit back and observe, you're just flat out wrong. Good scum are hunting just the same as Town, and they're looking for many of the same things. They damn well don't "pretend" until they see flips confirming them to be in the clear. Which certainly doesn't happen on D1.

[Pine]

The case was (and is) crap, because it was poorly explained. When elaborated upon, I saw what was being pointed out, and the actions were suspicious. The two statements are not mutually exclusive.

An example of undue aggression? The way you keep hammering at me again and again without changing your rhetoric or making any attempt to have a two-sided conversation. Please stop flooding the thread with the same things over and over again. I will concede any remaining points you have against me, and leave it to the other twenty players to decide. Let's move on.

[Pine]

I still want pine to respond to my request, but I think bvoight was on to something.

vote: Funkybike

Almost your entire ISO is evidence of your aggressive tendencies. I'm not going to spend half an hour or more rummaging through your posts to pick the ten most asinine things you've done. Most people that have commented thus far have agreed that you're extremely aggressive. Accept it.

Rofl, yeah, you found 4 scum when almost half the game has barely posted, you are a mafia god.

Sarcasm, dude. SV was mocking Slandaar, Beck, and the other twits who think they have rock-solid cases already.

One of beck/pine is probably scum. Of course, considering Beck's record, he's probably caught another townie again >.>
Also David? You'd probably find a lot of similarities with rev.

This post is the scummiest post in the game.

Basically, both people used rather weak reasons to attack the other, which is kinda acceptable considering theres only 7 pages, but the fact that this happens at 7 pages is kinda suspicious.
A possibility is that beck attacked Pine, who is scum, for weak reasoning, and that Pine reacted and starting attacking Beck in retaliation.
Of course, there really isn't anything I can see that currently puts one on top of the other in terms of scumminess, so I'll just

fos: beck and Pine

I'll probably change one to a vote when a majority appears on one or if one turns scummier than the other.
pedit: just saying, but considering curfews, I wont be active at all on weekdays. I could probably crank out a few posts, but It'll have to take the weekends to start posting as much as i want to.
ppedit: wth. invalid form

Wait, no, it's this one.

UNVOTE: DavidParker
VOTE: theamateur

This is a very good point. Also note the opportunism that theamateur has been displaying.

I'm good and pissed now, if pine and crackhead viewpoint don't explain why both of my cases are wrong (and actually can explain the town motivation behind their play) I'll push on these 2 mofos for the remainder of the game

This is an example of bad gameplay, regardless of alignment.

Beck, your cases are simply weak. There aren't really holes, per se, they just aren't nearly as significant as you keep making them out to be. You make mountains out of molehills, and react to every attack on you with personal fervor.

I'm really starting to have a hard time seeing you as scum at this point. I don't think you'd be this dumb as scum.

Oh, almost forgot

vote: shattered aka crackhead

Arrogance like yours is unfucking necessary.

This is also bad gameplay, regardless of alignment. Oh, and a superb example of your unnecessary aggression. Your case on SV amounts to "Oh my God, you suck! You don't agree with me, and then YOU VOTED FOR ME! I'm going to concoct an insulting nickname for you, and then vote you! Not for a good reason, but because you voted for me first!"

-----------------------
I would like to ask people to stop voting for Beck. He's not worth a mislynch. He's vig/SK bait.

[Pine]

EBWOP: There's been like four dense pages since I last posted, and people have asked me a lot of questions and such. I ignored some of the stupider ones intentionally, but if I missed yours, feel free to ask again. I've had a long, rough day and these things happen.

@theamateur: In these large Normal games, the vig often doesn't have the confidence to shoot solid scum targets on N1. The vig's duty is often to kill the biggest detriment to the Town on N1 and sometimes N2. These 20+ person games always have one or two. Shooting VIs is pro-Town. Wasting a lynch on them when they may be Town is bad play.

[Pine]

He was being sarcastic.

You are distracting the entire group with your attitude that the world revolves around you, your brash insistence that you can't be wrong, and your fluff-ridden excessively prolific posting. This would be okay if you were making good cases and points, but you're really not. You're solely engaging in petty arguments, name-calling, and worse, you're drawing others into it. Whether or not you are willing to believe this, you're being remarkably anti-Town without even trying to be.

PE: Your last, 100% unnecessary and conceited post, illustrates my point better than I ever could.

[Pine]

Kind of at a loss as to who to vote for...I'm maintaining that all or most of our scum are probably hiding in the quiet half of the player list, and I don't have enough solid evidence on any of them. Meh.

PE: Okay, I reviewed the ISOs of all of our lurkers, and I like popsofctown's the least. It reeks of active lurking. I want to at least hear more out of you.

Unvote
Vote: popsofctown

[Pine]

I'm sorry, Funky is scummy? Based on what? He's got three posts and no content to analyze. What, exactly, makes him more or less scummy than ANYONE? That's one step removed from calling someone with no posts scummy.

Theamateur's ISO reeks of newbscum. I'll back a lynch on him.

[Pine]

Need Hiraki case first.

Actually, pure meta case: This lurking and reasonable attitude are not what I associate with Town-Hiraki. It's not exactly what I think of when I reflect on scum-Hiraki either, but it's certainly odd. Not enough to go on, but certainly enough to warrant the pressure you're exerting.

[Pine]

Super, nothing new happened today. Literally, nothing was said that advances the thread in any way. No new case was presented, lurkers continue to lurk, self-obsessed morons continue to be self-obsessed and rehash the same weaksauce arguments without improving or expanding them, and troll-prone players continue to give in to their baser instincts (I'm looking at you, Hiraki).

Please stop discussing Mafia theory. This "Town list" conversation needs to die or be taken to another thread, as it is allowing a number of people to seem active and useful without actually contributing. It is IRRELEVANT to the current game, and most people who are fervently arguing it are simply wrong. Read some Mafia Discussion articles or the wiki for Cthlulu's sake.

[Pine]

I concur. ScreamingHawk is posting elsewhere, and needs to post here.

[Pine]

VOTE: Beck
Because he has no friends.

I don't need to be posting. My opinion isn't going to make a difference with these terrible arguments.

I don't think scum would intentionally post this badly. Only Town will care this little.

Stop being failTown. Ignore the petty arguments and present your OWN thoughts. Don't kowtow to the attention whores, be your own dude.

[Pine]

^Decent posts, and appear to be in the genuine "then again" thought process I associate with Towny behavior. Welcome back to the Town side of "meh".

[Pine]

@Slaandar: Seriously? It was explicitly stated in the below post. I don't think scum are likely to say what he did. It's not a 100% clear, but for the purposes of narrowing down a D1 lynch, it is sufficient. Pay the fuck attention.

VOTE: Beck
Because he has no friends.

I don't need to be posting. My opinion isn't going to make a difference with these terrible arguments.

I don't think scum would intentionally post this badly. Only Town will care this little.

Stop being failTown. Ignore the petty arguments and present your OWN thoughts. Don't kowtow to the attention whores, be your own dude.

[Pine]

I think I have enough partial reads (like the above concerning Hawk and Zel1nk) to do a bit of process of elimination for D1. Entries I felt were significant or warrant special attention are increased in size.

Town

15.

Pine

: I've read my role PM.

Maybe Town

14.

Revenus

: Finally, someone I have a solidly positive read on. I'm willing to go out on a limb and state that I find the cases and votes on Revenus to be without merit. Rev and I been on similar wavelengths (his words) all game, which to me indicates that he is processing things in an uninformed, reasoning, deductive manner. While his scumhunting is not as effective as I would desire, he is absolutely trying. Effectiveness is bred from experience, Rev, and you're doing well.

16.

slandaar

: Surprised to see one of my most dogged critics in this category? I'm not. I find stubborn confirmation bias to be an extremely Towny trait. I find his reasoning to be flawed in several instances, and disagree with him in others, but his tenacity for scumhunting is genuine, and damn it, he's trying hard. Boffo.

Towny Side of Neutral

01.

sorgster

: Seems to have a one-track mind concerning Zdenek. Has provided some reasonable analysis, and seems to be trying despite poor quantity of content. Can live for today but needs to be looked at harder.
07.

ZeL1nK

: Poor content, amateurish insistence of being obvTown, but seems to be trying and recently displayed thought processes bearing a Towny hallmark. Might be feigned, needs more investigation, but is acceptable for now.
10.

ScreamingHawk

: Scum lurk, but don't announce that that's what they're doing. Town, however, may feel lost and despair. This is what I see out of Hawk lately. Hardly reliable, but sufficient for D1.
20.

iamausername

: Dire lack of posts, but most of them have been chock full of meaty and nutritious content, sweetened with analysis. More please.
22.

bvoigt

: A look at his ISO makes me utter a hearty "meh". He's contributed, but not especially thoughtfully. His conclusions are somewhat similar to my own, so I'll give him a D1 pass. The biggest impression I get is that of someone who is busy, and not giving this game his full attention. Come to think of it, that makes me lean toward the Townier side of Neutral. More please.

Insufficient Data

02.

ThAdmiral

: Low amount of content. Additionally, my respect for his abilities is sufficient to counterbalance the slightly Towny vibe I have from him. I absolutely want more out of you, regardless of alignment. If Town, because I like what you have to say. If scum, so I can nail you to a wall. Plzkthx.
05.

SodaSpirit17

: Four or five posts, nothing with significant content.
06.

sword_of_omens

: Nothing since a contentless RVS post. Has presumably flaked.

07.

Primate

: One solitary post promising to catch up two days ago. We're waiting.

11.

Jackal711

: Has not posted at all. Likely flaked, though he picked up his role PM (DamnFail was immediately replaced when he failed to pick up his role, so we know Jackal did receive it.)
17.

funkybike1

: Insufficient data. Needs to post more.

Scummy Side of Neutral

03.

DavidParker

: Poor post count, poor content, poor analysis, and an inability to see past himself and his attackers. This is scummy, but mostly just bad play, regardless of alignment. Improve content, please.

09.

Shattered Viewpoint

: I'd actually put SV in the "Towny Side of Neutral" category at first, based on a positive image gut reaction to him, and likely based on the fact that he's agreed with me a number of times. I was even toying with having him be the first in my "Maybe Town" category. However, I diligently ISO'd him (as I have for every entry in this analysis) and discovered "HEY! There's no actual content here!" So I put him in the "Insufficient Data" category. Then I continued the line of thinking that started when I noticed his lack of content. A total lack of content, accusations sans explanation aside, from someone who is

clearly

paying attention to the game and posting semi-regularly is downright scummy.
18.

Hiraki

: Recently graduating from the "Insufficient Data" class, I think there's enough information to make a (purely meta) case here. Hiraki is

not

making a good enough showing, or following up on his aggressive tendancies for me to consider him Town. A good example of his aggressive-Town play is There Will Be Bloodshed (New York 128, I think). I can't think of a good example of Hiraki-scum, but I recall this aptitude for trolling to be part of his scum meta. This isn't a conclusive case, but definitely something I'm going to continue monitoring.

19.

Sky

: Initially in "Insufficient Data" for lack of posting, but as recently noted, every post he's made has either been RVS or off-topic. Suspicious, kind of belongs in both categories.

Acceptable D1 Lynches

04.

theamatuer

: Aptly named. Opportunistic in the extreme...jumps on me, jumps on zdenek, jumps on Beck when the conversation turns, then abandons that failing wagon to pick on a flaking lurker, while providing no case or analysis on...anyone. Reeks of newbScum, and will likely end up being my #1 choice for our first lynch.

12.

Zdenek

: Promoted from "Scummy Side of Neutral" as of this post. Proposed PL, backed off, said it was a joke, then said it was a gambit, then a joke again, and has provided zero content while active lurking. 323 is particularly suspicious, in that he provides two very different reasons for the same action in the same post. I find it laughable that his only content, and the only content

regarding

him, revolves around an RVS post. If he were to provide some serious, solid content, he could easily improve my opinion. Right now, he's a solid second tier candidate for a lynch.
13.

popsofctown

: As Zel1nk recently stated, king of IIOA. The only analysis-based post I could find was an early-RVS defense of zdenek's worthless PL suggestion...a position he promptly reversed. Was also at the heart of the off-topic discussion about Town lists, in which he proved that "Hey, I can be active instead of lurking!" only to promptly vanish when the off-topic conversation died.

...Other

21.

Beck

: I struggled with where to put Beck. Frankly, he simply doesn't fit in any of my other categories. I find him more likely than even odds to be Town, but I still encourage our Vig/SK to put him out of

his

our misery. Succinctly put, his self-centered and obnoxious attitude combined with his propensity for prolific posting is a detriment to the Town and a haven for active lurkers.

[Pine]

@Mod: Please prod sword_of_omens and replace or megaprod Jackal

[Pine]

Look, dude, I agree that you give

some

indications that you

might

be Town, and am even willing to gamble on it to the point of going out on a limb to say so, but you are NOT obviously Town. The ONLY person that can be certain of your alignment at this point is YOU and your budd(ies) if you are a Mason or Mafia. So KNOCK IT OFF. It isn't funny, and it makes you look bad. When you look bad, your opinions don't get heard. So stay on topic and quit being a prat.

[Pine]

Oh for jeebas's sake. Stop failing, the both of you.

If you're not sure what else to do, a good place to start would be thoroughly reading my analysis in 344 and giving your own opinions.

[Pine]

And yet, this...

For no better reason, VOTE: DavidParker

In that case, shouldn't you unvote?

Unvote
Vote: Zdenek

UNVOTE: Zdenek

...was enough to convince you that Funky WAS a good lynch? That's Funky's ENTIRE ISO. Funky is a lurker, and nothing he's said so far is even a tiny bit inherently scummy. You're either scum or a derp to keep pushing this.

PE: The above applies to Soda as well. Provide some content, Soda. Also, calling Soda scummy while lambasting the thought of a lurker lynch is straight-up hypocrisy, Zdenek. I expect better out of you, and it comes off as desperately trying to shift attention off of yourself while looking productive. It's not working.

[Pine]

Pine hasn't contributed anything useful to this game...

This is a premium example of your confirmation bias-ridden, tunnel-visioned, no-one's-opinion-but-mine-matters attitude. REGARDLESS of my alignment, I've added a TON of things to the game. I've provided extremely detailed information on my reads of every single player (compared to your own focus on three or four players), frequent

analysis

of new information (something you rarely do), make leaps of logic based on sound principles, and at the very least, I've been an open book, completely explaining my reasoning and thoughts on everything I've done and said.

In comparison, you have held onto your early laurels of building shoddy RVS cases on two people, whined incessantly that no one will answer the same old questions to your satisfaction despite numerous attempts to do so, gone out of your way to insult and demean almost every player, gone after inactive players, started arguments over nothing, gone off-topic, obnoxiously spammed the thread (the above being a reasonable example though hardly the worst of it.)

For you to say that I've contributed

nothing useful

to the game indicates that you Are. Not. Taking. This. Seriously. You're either derpScum or failTown. Either way, I'm done with you. I will not be responding to you or reacting to you in any way unless a major paradigm shift occurs in your style of gameplay. Good bye, Beck.

PE: Funkybike, you absolutely have to provide more than hopping onto a growing wagon without providing independent reasons. Start with your top suspects, include reasoning that doesn't look like you quoted someone and removed the tags, and go from there.

[Pine]

I do not support a D1 policy lynch (call a spade a spade) on Beck whatsoever. Scum won't kill him, so I'll leave it to the vig. If he survives the night, we can talk about a PL tomorrow.

Hell, if we can all just decide to enact a full embargo on him (and we're getting there) I could see just leaving him and ignoring the hell out of him en masse. My stress in this thread plummetted since I started literally skipping his posts.

Revenus is shaking my confidence in him over the last page or so. Nothing damning, but this fresh round of criticisms has some merit.

[Pine]

Also, I'm starting to see the Hiraki I'm familiar with, though I can't help but wonder if it's feigned.

[Pine]

Lynch all Liars. You claimed your first post was a joke because it was beneficial for it to be one.

Unless you can explain what's so humorous about sorgster's play in 1531

I was using the word joke to day that it was not a serious policy lynch.

Do you think that all lies/gambits by town are scummy?

Dude, you CAN'T claim it as a joke AND a gambit. They are NOT the same thing...VERY different, in fact. This statement, and it being the second time you've schizo claimed both in one post, is by far the most damning thing you've done. You give two contradictory reasons for the same action. Genuine actions performed for legitimate reasons do not require such hedging of bets.

I'm strapped for time I can devote to mafia, so please chill on my activity level.

Re: IioA - I like theory crafting a lot, so I'm naturally predisposed to talk a lot about it since I enjoy it more. That said it is anti-town,

Confession of being anti-town.

Oh what bullshit. He's stating that his style is generally not as beneficial to the Town as intended, not admitting to an anti-Town alignment. Major, major misrep here.

That said, I'm not pops' biggest fan, so carry on.
================

Please stop talking about the game that Zdenek and pops played before. It is entirely irrelevant to this game and is off-topic.

[Pine]

That's not actually a very good example, ThAd. I got lynched D1 for good cause. I screwed up royally. Set's Speed Mafia (Mini 1203) is an excellent example of a scum win where I lurked my ass off (though it was NOT on purpose,) and There Will Be Bloodshed (NY 128?) is a superb example of my more aggressive scum meta, (I and my

entire

scumteam survived to endgame,) though it was only my second game on-site and IMHO does not accurately reflect my current skill level. NY 130 and 131 are both good examples of a more middle-of-the-road scum strategy I've used, also resulting in a win. Actually, discounting the games I flaked in over the summer, I've got something like a 75% scum win average.

In comparison, Mini 1159 is an example of a more calculating Town win, Mini 1138 is one where I came right out of the gates as a replacement and nailed all of the remaining scum to a wall. NY 129 had a good showing where I was super-aggressive Town, to the point of shoving my reads in everyone's faces and then helping in my own lynch so people would take me seriously when I flipped Town. Even despite that, they still lost the game for me when they ignored my reads, despite my last list being right in 3 out of 4 cases.

Wouldn't want you to lack for meta on me. No, I'm not going to bother actually linking them, I'm too lazy.

PE: I concur, though they can help form an image of how a person

thinks

. And that's way more important than how they actually play. But yeah, meta should always be the

support

for a good case, never the case itself. I'm aware that my allegations against Hiraki make the previous statement the heights of hypocrisy, and I'm okay with it.

[Pine]

Derp wagon. Dont sweat it.

Unvote

Vote: theamateur

Vote was feeling a bit stale. Case is consolidated in my big wallpost etc.

[Pine]

It's a mod mistake. Sorgster unvoted first, ergo he doesn't have a second vote (or at least isn't using it).

@Mod: Fix plzkthx

[Pine]

btw i'm going to nightvig you beck

You don't announce that. Doc on Revenus, please.

[Pine]

We've got a number of derpy players. Simple odds are, one or more of them are Town PRs. I can't rely on them to do the obvious.

[Pine]

I mind. You don't lynch lurkers on D1, they have a 2/3 (roughly) chance of being Town that just happen to be a bit busy. You go with what you've got on D1, and then if lurking continues into D2, you start to call is a pattern and get serious about pressuring them.

[Pine]

This is starting to stall a bit.

Okay, everyone in your next post, please list your top three or four preferences (not your top one that we've heard about ad nauseum) for

today's

lynch and a sentence or two about

why

for each. Again, preferably in new words an not the same ones you've used before. Rank-ordering is a plus.

[Pine]

Pine: one of beck/Pine is scum, and Pine seems the better canidate of the two

Why?

why does one have to be scum?

why cant they both be town?

what has alerted you to the fact one of them HAS to be scum?

I feel that one of them should be scum based on the interaction between Beck and Pine
That possibility could happen, but one of them being scum is way more possible.

And they dont HAVE to be scum, its they SHOULD be scum due to their constant attacking of each other.

The bolded is a

stunning

logical fallacy. Shit, I don't even know whether that makes him more or less scummy at this point. If I thought he were feigning that kind of illogic, or trying to manipulate others into believing it, then yeah. But if he actually believes that makes sense, that throws a lot of my read off. It's like fencing with an 8-year-old (nerd alert). When fencing a novice adult, an experienced fencer can beat them easily, because adults (or at least those prone to taking up fencing) have been inundated their whole lives with poor examples of the skill. They're predictable and it's easy to get in their head. But children are sometimes the most frustrating opponents, because you don't know

what

the fuck they're going to do. Or why. Total wild cards, even if their attacks don't make an ounce of sense, they can catch you off-guard by how ridiculous they are.

[Pine]

Fencing's gay.

Seriously though, get an avatar. It makes it a lot easier to pick out your posts when skimming through to find quotes and points you've made, and there's a significant subconscious benefit to having an image to immediately associate with a name.

And Pops, you just can't resist the opportunity to provide a bunch of off-topic content when the chance presents itself, can you? Apply that level of commitment to the actual game, and I wouldn't be as suspicious of you.

Claiming or softclaiming PRs of any kind on D1 (not counting L-1 "claim or die" moments) is a bad idea in most cases, as it unnecessarily gives scum information and insight into your thought processes. A Townie fakeclaiming and even fakesoftclaiming can force a real PR into counterclaiming for a supposed scum kill, resulting in an otherwise innocent Townie being mislynched. Fakeclaiming vig is especially stupid, as it will very often lead to the REAL vig saying "Aha! That's either scum or the SK setting up a vig fakeclaim. I'll shoot him to find out." And we again have a dead fakeclaimer, with the added benefit of a wasted friendly fire shot.

^See? That's all that needed to be said. It isn't a discussion that will eat up half a day and a dozen posts, it's an experienced player taking

part

of a

single

post to completely defeat the incorrect idea, explain why, and re-educate. I'm moving on from this off-topic conversation and so should everyone else.

PE: Four more fucking fluff posts about this since I started typing? Shut the fuck up about it, people.

[Pine]

Break the cycle. Call them out on their fluff posting. Change the subject. Educate them and finish the conversation. You've got too much experience to simply get a pass on this one.

[Pine]

Fencing's gay.

Seriously though, get an avatar. It makes it a lot easier to pick out your posts when skimming through to find quotes and points you've made, and there's a significant subconscious benefit to having an image to immediately associate with a name.

And Pops, you just can't resist the opportunity to provide a bunch of off-topic content when the chance presents itself, can you? Apply that level of commitment to the actual game, and I wouldn't be as suspicious of you.

Claiming or softclaiming PRs of any kind on D1 (not counting L-1 "claim or die" moments) is a bad idea in most cases, as it unnecessarily gives scum information and insight into your thought processes. A Townie fakeclaiming and even fakesoftclaiming can force a real PR into counterclaiming for a supposed scum kill, resulting in an otherwise innocent Townie being mislynched. Fakeclaiming vig is especially stupid, as it will very often lead to the REAL vig saying "Aha! That's either scum or the SK setting up a vig fakeclaim. I'll shoot him to find out." And we again have a dead fakeclaimer, with the added benefit of a wasted friendly fire shot.

^See? That's all that needed to be said. It isn't a discussion that will eat up half a day and a dozen posts, it's an experienced player taking

part

of a

single

post to completely defeat the incorrect idea, explain why, and re-educate. I'm moving on from this off-topic conversation and so should everyone else.

PE: Four more fucking fluff posts about this since I started typing? Shut the fuck up about it, people.

Keep this post right here in mind.

I lol'd. You can be Town...for now.

I think your wit is lost on at least 75% of the thread, though.

[Pine]

I have little to add since I last posted. Got a noticeable feeling of ambivalence from the last page. Thanks for providing some content, ThAd, looking forward to you being fully caught up.

[Pine]

but ThAd is now firmly on my radar after his last post, that post seems really scummy.

I agree with Hiraki (especially) and ThAd moving up the suspect list, but not with this statement. With the exception of including Slandaar, I have no issue with his list, though his lack of reasoning is suspicious, particularly from someone like ThAd.

[Pine]

Revenus, please stop feeding the troll.

[Pine]

^Bad vote. Beck is vigbait, and what you're proposing is a policy lynch. Unless you can come up with a reasonable and thorough case on why he's scum, I won't stand for wasting a lynch on him when a vig bullet makes him just as dead.

[Pine]

22 people: Probably 5 scum with 2 strong PRs or 3 weak ones, or 6 with 1-2 weak PRs at most. Definitely an SK or some other third party (perhaps Traitor to work with the atypical scum math). Town will have 4-6 PRs depending on strength, with 1 strong or 2 weak (each) investigative and protective. Roleblocker and/or Jailkeeper probably present, vig almost certainly. Backup roles may fill the rest. Good chance of 2-3 Masons or a Neighborhood/Neighborizer.

[Pine]

Rant (from Dictionary.com):

rant [rant]
verb (used without object)
1. to speak or declaim extravagantly or violently; talk in a wild or vehement way; rave: The demagogue ranted for hours.

verb (used with object)
2. to utter or declaim in a ranting manner.

Word Origin: 1598, from Du. randten "talk foolishly, rave," of unknown origin (cf. Ger. rantzen "to frolic, spring about"). The noun is first attested 1649, from the verb.

[Pine]

^Bad vote. Beck is vigbait, and what you're proposing is a policy lynch. Unless you can come up with a reasonable and thorough case on why he's scum, I won't stand for wasting a lynch on him when a vig bullet makes him just as dead.

If

there were anyone I'd be willing to PL. There isn't.

[Pine]

I've read your ISO, SV. This post...

Before you call my case bullshit, try making one yourself, until than you have no right to criticize my case.

Have a seat, get comfortable. Allow me to tell you a little tiny story.

Once upon a time, there was a game, This game was called Mafia. It involved an informed minority and an uninformed majority. The way you play this game doesn't really differ much -- on the surface -- regardless of which side you happen to be on.

Everyone is trying to catch scum. (Hush, now, even the scum are trying to

appear

to be catching scum.)

The Mafia, while trying to appear town and catching the scum, may (or may not) make some bullshit arguments.

It is while deconstructing these bullshit arguments that we, as Town, are able to narrow down the possibilities of who is scum and who is not.

Your case is bullshit. Therefore, you're either scum or a fucking idiot.


One scum found!

UNVOTE: beck

I've actually liked what Beck has had to say thus far.

Looky there!

Two

scum found!


Oh, and Beck? Here's some further proof of your scumminess/moronity:

@ sorg, I still stand by it

PL in general, bad play

PL of DK in general, the best thing town can do for themselves 100% of the time.

I don't get it. Is this opposite day or something?

I'm obvtown, why are you voting for me?

THIRD

scum found! I think I just came.

IM OBV TOWN

This is my read on beck

FOURTH---

no, wait. Slandaar's just dumb.

We also have a shut load of people who need to post, and others who need to post content and not nonsensical horseshit (shattered this means you)

Blow me, scumboy.

And funkybike isn't scum, just newbtown Lurker McLurkyman.

...is the only one that even masquerades as content, or attempts to give reads on anyone. And you don't explain them in any real way. This is not acceptable.

Why

do you suspect these people? How do their recent actions change your opinion or cause it to remain the same? Why?

I mean, the only reason you even gave for Revenus, who I have a decent Townread on, was that he was hearing Beck out. WHAT? That isn't even declaring him scummy! It's just saying "this person is stupid, so I'm going to vote him."

Add Shattered Viewpoint to my list of acceptable lynches/vig targets, unless a significant change occurs and soon.

[Pine]

Maybe if you explained yourself better, you might actually be able to contribute to these "terrible arguments" instead of just showing up every three days.

Tragic and scummy irony, thy name is funkybike1.

Also, I fully support the notion that I am newb town.

...Except that no one (that I can recall) is making that assertion. It is not a label you can give to yourself, or even really endorse for yourself. This is, by far, the scummiest thing you've said.

I now condone the wagon on funkybike1, though my read on him is far from airtight enough to actively support it. Happy hunting, gentlemen.

[Pine]

OK then ThAd lets go head to head today, you are scum im certain now

Wow, an unvote and a retaliation. Didn't expect this big a response!

What is scummy about that exactly? it seems obvious to me there is no point voting funky today whatever you think of his alignment so obv i unvote after his claim...

Beck's response to this summarises my position quite well:

I'll say I think funky is not mafia, so someone pushing his wagon is scum.

ThAd said previously:

Well obv sky is my main scum read at the moment. Other than that I have a bunch of town reads, and then there's a lot of other people who I basically can't distinguish because they haven't really done anything.

So, we can assume beck is a town read yet he does not use becks logic to find scum pushing the beck wagon, which is odd, truely, looking for any reason to get your vote on me first eh?

UNVOTE: Hiraki
VOTE: ThAdmiral

Lets go

Stunningly bad, OMGUS-y post. Stop it. You guys are Town vs. prob-Town.

You've gotta stop taking things personally, Slandaar.

[Pine]

Enlighten me, SV. What things, that are "obvious", am I missing in your posts? Your refusal to explain, or your stunning arrogance?

[Pine]

Saying that over and over doesn't make it so.

And if you ARE "that good," then you have

reasons

for your accusations. I'm asking that you actually share them with we mere mortals, so we can understand your so-called brilliance.

And if you don't have reasons that can be explained, then you're just guessing, trolling, and arrogantly extolling your own virtues.

[Pine]

The vig thing died a while ago.

Hiraki being useless is

not

typical in my experience, hence my suspicion at his current dearth of usefulness. He's improved a bit, interspersing some occasional insight into his trolling.

[Pine]

Basing your entire performance on trolling others and loafing around the thread is pretty shameful, too.

[Pine]

Neither vig claim was serious.

[Pine]

You'd be surprised. There are some arrogant motherfuckers on this website.

[Pine]

As you may already be aware if you ever read Mafia Discussion, I'm going to be on little to no access this weekend & next week, but Faraday has agreed to temporarily replace me for that period (assuming this is OK with the mod).

But before I go, I'm going to try to post something actually substantial, because I've been kind of neglecting this game a bit. So, thoughts on everyone will be coming later tonight and/or tomorrow. Cross my heart.

Oooh, Faraday. Yes please. Fun to play with regardless of your alignment, or his.

[Pine]

Welcome to Townland, Primate.

[Pine]

WHEN I GET IGNORED I POST IN CAPS LOCK. STOP IGNORING ME. GIVE US YOUR READS WITH EXPLANATIONS.

EXPLAIN YOUR PREVIOUS VOTES

I concur.

Funkybike, explain yourself.

And theamatuer, you're not looking any better.

Actually, theam has been looking better of late. You, on the other hand, are firmly off of my Town list and sinking through the neutral categories. Less for the mediocre reasons others have posted about you, and more due to your unflagging willingness to pursue any avenue of discussion ad infinitum, no matter how useless or distracting to the game.

It's innocent until found guilty, not the other way around.

Fallacy. This is not a court of law, this is Mafia Scum. Here, you are presumed suspect until I have a

damn

good reason to believe otherwise.

I am becoming more tolerant of a Beck PL as the pages pile up and up due to his incessant chattering, drawing others into spirals of distraction. Pops and theam are still on my suspect list, but have moved off of the most wanted category, exchanging places with Hiraki and Shattered Viewpoint. I'm quite wary of the former two as yet, because I feel their recent improvements might be a direct result of the suspicion cast upon them.

Unvote
Vote: Shattered Viewpoint

I want fresh reads, with good reasons for all of them. Hell, I'll even do the same at some point in the next day or so.

[Pine]

It's not the productive discussions I'm objecting to, Rev. It's the unproductive feeding of this thread's trolls. There seems to be no bait you won't rise to. Good example? The last two to four pages. Two third of it is

wasted

on you clashing with Beck and producing nothing of real use.

It's almost like you're not really concerned with pushing the scummy folks, and more concerned with hearing yourself talk.

That said, wagon on SV, gogogo.

[Pine]

No, you can't; unless you're unlynchable, which (I believe) is not a Normal role.

It can be, under the "One atypical role per Normal" rule. As Palisade, Mastin and I were offered either Unlynchable or Bulletproof as the SK. We chose BP. After I flaked this summer, we got lynched,

Beck is still painfully scum.
Rev more town; however, he's a fool for engaging with Beck.
ZeL1nk is now null as he's lurking (but he's probscum anyway).
I never said Slandaar was scum, I said he's stupid. Reading comprehension is valuable, you might look into that.

bvoigt is sliding toward scum now.

and you, sword_of_omens, are being quite scummy for much of the same reasons as that other game that I can't talk about.

There we are. Shiny new reads from me. See you all in a few days.

Wholly insufficient. Pitifully unwilling to commit to anything that hasn't been said ad nauseum by others, and the reasons you provide are ridiculously short for 34 whole pages of activity. You keep marking time and failing to contribute in a reasonable, thorough manner. Seriously, shape up or this pressure vote/wagon will turn into a serious attempt at getting you lynched.

PE: I haven't had time to read IAAUN's post yet, but I am pleasantly surprised by it.

That

is what I'm asking of you. See you on the flip side, IAAUN.

[Pine]

Mod: Please prod David Parker, ZeL1nK, and...umm...yourself (chkflip, DK's been great)

[Pine]

I like IAAUN's case on Revenus. I'm not completely convinced, but it certainly deserves to be addressed better than the blunt dismissal in 835 (mixed with what looks shockingly like misrepresentation, as IAAUN did more than pick on the one post).

Revenus, please re-read IAAUN's case and respond appropriately. Your obsession with how people perceive you is also contributing to my rapidly-dwindling opinion of you.

[Pine]

Seriously? I've been defending you all game.

And while I agree with you that most of the votes on you are for poor reasons, if you're so paranoid as to say that I might vote on you for "retarded" reasons, you've got another thing coming.

Now, please address his points regarding posts 124 and 177, defending theam and being paranoid about it looking like that's what you're doing, being willing to support a lynch on anyone but the three people you wanted to suck up to, your reversal on the Beck PL (I admit to some hypocrisy here myself), post 424, and your diversionary trolling of Beck.

Perhaps because it's someone you've repeatedly regarded as Town has restated the (very complete) case on you, you won't dismiss it.

[Pine]

By the way, one of the core ethics of good Town play is to find scum and

get them lynched

. Town will accept scum and VIs onto a wagon they're confident of. So suggest again that I would lower myself to the level of others on your wagon by agreeing with them for entirely different reasons. It will just make them right, albeit for the wrong reasons.

You've gone from "rapidly sinking" to "all out freefall" as the pressure ratchets up. This is

precisely

why we pressure people...many of them crack. Sometimes they spew Towntells. Others, they spew scumtells.

[Pine]

I'm telling you how to avoid my vote. I don't feel your reasons are sufficient, hence I am voting for you. Play however you want, those are the consequences of your current actions.

[Pine]

Now, please address his points regarding posts 124 and 177, defending theam and being paranoid about it looking like that's what you're doing, being willing to support a lynch on anyone but the three people you wanted to suck up to, your reversal on the Beck PL (I admit to some hypocrisy here myself), post 424, and your diversionary trolling of Beck.

STOP AVOIDING THIS.

[Pine]

Okay, now stop avoiding the other half of the case against you.

Why are you being obtuse about this?

[Pine]

How about I lay it out in bullet form. Respond to the following:

-Your hypocrisy regarding IAAUN's fluffposting, followed by your own. (You somewhat responded to this.)
-The circumstances of post 124. (Dismissed, did not engage.)
-The dissonance represented by post 177. (Dismissed, did not engage.)
-Defending theamateur on several occasions, then becoming paranoid about

looking

like you're defending someone who the Town is beginning to suspect. (Have not responded at all.)
-Willingness to lynch anyone except the three you feel you can't justify it on. (Dodged the point. It was that you expressed a willingness to lynch almost anyone.)
-Attempt to rally a serious PL on Beck (note that the difference here is that it was not a joke or frustration, but a serious attempt) after repeatedly stating a belief that Beck is Town. (Have not responded.)
-Post 424 seems to express frustration at being caught for the wrong reasons, implying there are good reasons to lynch you. (Have not responded.)
-Trolling Beck and engaging his return-trolling. (Have not responded.)

[Pine]

wifom is good for games sometimes

This was so bad I had to break my silence, and comment.

No. WIFOM is never good for Town, and your reason for clearing funkybike is completely unsound. That is precisely the reasoning scum would want you to use. "I'll do something so scummy, Town would never think it came from actual scum." Thanks for playing our game, Beck, you continue to lose.

/ignoring Beck again

[Pine]

My read is neutral-scummy. I don't see the cases being built on him as having much merit, but I'm also not seeing Funky doing anything to change their opinions or improve mine.

[Pine]

On the other hand, I don't like Slandaar's play for some reason, and I especially dont like how Username refuses to give a reason on why he says slaandar is town.
I'd like anybody who thinks Slandaar is town to please post their reasoning.

I already have. To add to that, I feel he's putting himself way too out there, and entirely too willing to make enemies and criticize anyone. He's not pulling his punches and guarding his words like I expect scum to do. There's no calculation to his analyses, he's posting his actual thoughts. And his opinions evolve naturally, gradually. He doesn't make precipitous decisions to back off of someone, or to start pressing, he's clearly thinking things through, building cases in his head, and developing his ideas. His opposition to me is a good example. ISO him and do a search on my name. He ramps up gradually to finding me one of his top scum reads, then ever so slowly changes his mind as he visibly divorces himself from confirmation bias and re-evaluates my actions. Scum doesn't do that.

Slandaar is Town. There is no question in my mind. In fact, though I continue to disagree with some of his assessments (his vilification of ThAd, while I can get behind it in principle, is over the top,) Slandaar is the Towniest person in the thread.

PE: Okay, I think it's time to draw a line in the sand. Looking at that vote count, it is very clear that we're down to three reasonable candidates for today's lynch. Revenus, Funkybike, and Shattered Viewpoint.

If your vote's elsewhere, either make an earth-shattering case against them or drop it until Day Two. Three candidates in a game this large is a reasonable pool.

[Pine]

Pun not intended.

Good catch, though.

[Pine]

I also don't like Pine attempting to limit our lynches to 3 targets when we have 10 days left.

Have only had a chance to skim this afternoon, haven't read your full response to Bvoigt (not me, I simply rephrased his questions).

As I'm certain you're aware from your years playing, there comes a point towards the end of every day cycle,

particularly

the first, where productivity plummets and people start second-guessing themselves, ripping into solid reads and generally losing sight of the real goals. I feel we are at this point. It's time to take the information we have and go with it. You'll note that I did

not

limit it just to those three, but rather left the door open for outstanding dark horse candidates.

Quit bitching because you're one of the three on the block.

Also, 931 and 934 are really not helping you out.

You have a point regarding David Parker, but I can't help wondering whether it's just something you're waving around to get people to stop scrutinizing you.

-----
I lol'd at 929. Boffo.

[Pine]

So, with one breath you say that I'm unqualified to estimate when we've hit the productivity barrier, then with the next admit that you yourself have little experience with long games and are therefore unqualified yourself.

I find it exceedingly unlikely that all three of you are Town.

[Pine]

Unvote
Vote: ZeL1nK

The lady doth protest too much.

Explain this Pine, I expect better from you. (Zelink IS and WAS obvtown,) I don't buy for a second you believe that calling onself town is a scumtell so what gives?

Keep reading. It was a sarcastic/frustration-driven vote that didn't have my weight behind it.

By the way, folks, I'd like to caution you to take Faraday's posts with a few grains of salt. I've heard him boast about having never been lynched as scum, which is quite an exceptional achievement. I was leaning towards Town on IAAUN, but there wasn't much to work with. Just be careful, Faraday is outstanding as Town but truly masterful as scum.

[Pine]

Forgot about it until I started posting. I like most of what you have to say, and it occurred to me as I was reading to read your opinions carefully, just as I do with ThAd. You'll notice in my first wallpost (344 I think?) that I comment to similar effect about him. I have had experiences with both of you that make me extra cautious. Specifically, recalling your performance in Mini 1137, despite you being my post-mortem ally, got me both really nervous about playing against you. I don't know whose side you're on.

See, when you have that kind of "blew my socks off" experience, it's something you want to share with the class.

[Pine]

And you're noticeably exaggerating how much I vilified you. "Grain of salt, this guy's really good" does not equate to "Soulless baby-eater". AtE noted.

[Pine]

I've noticed your propensity for exaggeration.

[url=http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p3025848]From 1137 (best moment)[/ur]

PE: Iunno. I feel like I have, but I can't think of specific examples. It's the kind of thing I'd do in RVS, but you replaced in. Actually, come to think of it, I have a concrete example of it that I did a couple of days ago, but it's in an ongoing game. I had a three- or four-month absence here (hence sig) so nothing's really fresh in my mind except ongoing and impressions.

[Pine]

Meh. Nothing much has happened in the last few pages that is worth commenting on.

[Pine]

unless you're functionally retarded the above is a bad idea.

[Pine]

ThAd is starting to turn my opinion of him. He's back around neutral, maybe slightly above now.

I particularly agree with his assessment of Sky's 1082 and the sudden wagon on Sword of Omens. I'm done defending the chronic lurkers, though. At this point, they either need to show up and be active or replace out. Failing to do one of those two things is unacceptably anti-Town behavior.

[Pine]

lolnotpayingattention

[Pine]

We have until next Wednesday to get twelve people to agree on one person. Barring blatant scumslips, I am beginning to despair of that happening.

[Pine]

is there any particular reason vijay hasn't gotten more votes? do people think he's town or are they just set on their pet lynch?

Partly the latter, but mostly because I don't find the case against him particularly compelling. There's no good reason to think he's Town either, but the case against him is weaksauce compared to others out there.

[Pine]

Mod: Please

replace

Primate and prod Soda. David Parker is also two hours away from the prod deadline.

[Pine]

SV you're an alt of NS, right?

[Pine]

It's relevant to me, because I have a history with and reasonable meta on you now.

You're probably Town in light of that, but you're being a derp for not explaining your reads. If you were to actually explain them, I might see a way to help you prosecute them, or at least explain them in small words to the unwashed masses in this game.

[Pine]

[quote="In post 1170Unfortunately Beck, antitown =/= scum. NS is just a useless player.[/quote]
This. Anti-Town behavior and scummy behavior are different. Similar, but different.

I'm backing off of SV with a pronounced eye-roll because this is his Town meta in my experience. It's not any more successful than anyone else, really, but it is more annoying. Here's a few examples:

NY 129
NY 131
Mini 1138

I agree with Pops on not PLing lurkers D1. You lynch them if they continue to lurk into D2.

[Pine]

Actually, it occurs to me that I can't locate a game I've played with NS in which he was scum. Granted, I'm not in the mood to do an exhaustive search, but this is intriguing and may throw my meta read on NSV.

[Pine]

The more I think about it, the less I believe that statement to be necessarily true. My initial reaction to confirming that SV=NS was that he's Town because he's acted in a similar manner in the past when he's been Town, but I now recognize that I don't have a firm handle on NSV's scum meta.

And what are you smoking "SV looks like scum to me after checking those games"? He was Town in all of them.

[Pine]

Not exactly the same, but similar. NS has given reasons and answered questions when pressured.

[Pine]

Dude, I rethought NS town meta = SV Town before you or anyone else said jack, in 1176. It is not something I'm still going with.

[Pine]

Dude, I rethought NS town meta = SV Town before you or anyone else said jack, in 1176. It is not something I'm still going with.

To be fair you did, but for the wrong reasons, you did not notice the difference in the styles which even Beck (your opinion of him not mine) saw them.

Pine: I think SV is town based on Meta *shows 3 games of NS*

Pine : oh I didnt realise I have no scum-NS/SV games maybe Im wrong

Me: Theres big differences in those styles, SV is probably scum.

You STILL did not get why SV was scum

SV explains he plays differently as NS (waiting on confirmation)

So, you clearly did not notice the differences, which is really weird. I take from it you did not look at the games properly because you already know SVs alignment.

I think it actually confirms you scum, I need to think on this.

Dude, I didn't closely examine those games because I played them. You may be finding slight differences in the style, but I've actually spent weeks and months in those games. Plus, I feel like I've played more than that with NS, but just am not finding the game threads. I had and have a solid read on NSV's Town meta, and I didn't need to reread those games to get it. I quickly realized, however, that that meta opinion was not relevant because I don't think I've ever seen him as scum. He's an arrogant mofo, but I don't have the evidence or experience to back a meta argument against him.

Did you just skim the ISOs out of context? That may be leading to your incorrect opinion of the differences.

[Pine]

Here's another Nobody Special game that just ended.

Town again, but you'll see that his play style is almost a dead ringer for Shattered Viewpoint, except he didn't get the pressure from people he respects like he did in those games where he explained himself, nor did he get pressure from people he scoffs at to turn into a total douche.

The differences between NS and SV are minimal at best.

[Pine]

What are the differences?

Also, lol on taking someone's word on their own meta.

Lol again on getting meta from skimmed ISOs. Context is the only way you understand the situation and are able to actually interpret things. You spent maybe five minutes skimming those games. I played in each of them (except the last one, I replaced into it) for

months

.

[Pine]

Soda wagon is reasonable. Not my favorite, but I can get behind it eventually.

Speaking of my favorite, Revenus has gotten awfully quiet (comparatively) now that attention has died down on him.

[Pine]

^lol @ directing the vig.

If there's a vig, they don't need the Town cred, they are Town. If there's an SK, you don't want to give them Town cred, you want them dead or leashed. You should add the #selfdefeatingstatement hashtag to the above.

[Pine]

Speaking of useless, this post.

I lol'd. Got funny looks from my family, had to shut up. Good times.

This thread is a giant facepalm.

QFT

[Pine]

I particularly love how the more solid cases get ignored, and the weaksauce random nonsense gains traction.

[Pine]

why are so many people making bad votes.

i swear, you guys deserve mastin at this stage.

They really do.

I should ask Mastin to replace in for Primate.

I just did.

Mastin?

mastin2, even.

Just call me Pine, Mastinbane.

[Pine]

ALRIGHT GUYS.

IMA PUT ON MY RAGE SUIT. AND COME BACK TO DEAL WITH ALL THIS SHIT.

AND THEN YOU WILL FOLLOW ME

AND I WILL LEAD YOU AD VICTORIAM.

CAPICE?

CAPICE.

I look forward to this. If it happens.

[Pine]

Hi guys.

OMG I love you man

TL;DR: Lots and lots and lots and lots of bullshit to wade through. You'll cut down your reading by (literally) about a quarter if you skip everything the massive VI Beck has posted. He's almost certainly Town, but he's so prone to serious OMGUS, spite, frivolity, and general idiocy that he's worthless. I'm hoping he's N1 vigbait. That'll reduce it down to an effective 30ish pages, which is much more reasonable.

Lots of lurkers. Shattered Viewpoint is Nobody Special. Hiraki's being weird and ThAd lurky but is producing acceptable content when he does pop in. Faraday is temporarily replacing iamausername. Revenus is hard to read, but fairly prolific without being completely unreadable. I currently have a scum read after an initial Town read, due some recent things he's said and his bad reactions to being wagoned. He's changed tack and is lurking until suspicion goes away, which I won't allow. Theamateur and popsofctown are both being very difficult, having rebounded from earlier scumreads with decent activity. There's more, but most of the players in this thread have yet to do anything worth remembering. It's seriously composed of 90-95% of the people I just mentioned. In a 22-player.

[Pine]

I agree, but I was trying to give Mastin information on the thread without biasing his reads too much. Giving him too much of my reads (or yours) could influence how he reads the thread, and we'd get less of that unique Mastin insight we all love so much.

[Pine]

I'll take it on Pine and Faraday's word that SV and Beck are town, since my initial impression does not impress me.

I retracted that a while ago (regarding SV). Beats the hell out of me what he is, but his play style as SV seems to take the NS dickishness and turn it up to truly epic levels, and seems designed to present a thorough "I'm a douche" front, making him extremely hard to read. What I'd usually call scummy actions (refusing to answer questions, failing to provide reasons for his reads, active lurking, general trolling) fits in with his cockish persona. So I'm having a hard time deciding whether he's obfuscating scum or lolTown. Either way I think it's a shitty play style

[Pine]

By the way, if it's in the wiki, it's obsolete.

Unless it's REALLY old, and then it might be back in play for WIFOM reasons. The wiki is super unreliable outside of Newbie games.

[Pine]

Or just a total arrogant dick. This is the dilemma I presented. Pay attention.

[Pine]

lolwhut?

On the wiki = less useful than unpublicized working theories. That's all I said. Didn't even comment on the 3-4-5 thing.

[Pine]

If you are going to meta him, you need to look at both his town and scum play.

This is why I retracted my "NS-Town = SV-Town" position, which Slandaar jumped all over me on. I don't have a scum meta on NSV. I get a general sense that NSV is being dick-Town, but I don't have any scum history to back it up.

Apparently, Slandaar considers "I spent fifteen minutes and skimmed a couple of ISOs, all of the same alignment" to mean that he knows everything about how a person plays the game.

[Pine]

Primate, sorgster. As far as I'm concerned, Mastin enters with a completely clean slate.

I can't

off the top of my head

think of a game where Mastin replaced in as Town, but in NY 129 he replaced in as scum late into a long-ass game. I knew he was scum almost from the start (I know Mastin that well) but he was truly masterful in his efforts there.

[Pine]

Perhaps, I do sorgster, but I'm not going to fill in the blanks to your open-ended question. How about you tell us what you perceive, instead of suggesting there's something there without giving an opinion?

What does Beck's pattern tell

you

?

[Pine]

VOTE: vijay for pretty much the same reasons that have already been mentioned.

(By the way, this just became one of my favorite images ever. I intend to use and reuse it...was just looking for a sheep pic for the blatant sheeping above, but since it's somewhat scummy sheeping, this works even better!)

[Pine]

Sorg, I just read your iso, it's pretty bad I can make a wall of everything scummy about your play thus far. When I get time on a pc, I'll show you what I'm talking about.

This is clearly intent to retaliate, though you never actually followed through and voted.

You do, actually, attack those who attack you, even if there's not much basis for the retaliation.

[Pine]

oh are we back to lynching beck, i'm still down

Unvote

Vote:Beck

for many many reasons that i've gone over before.

and no sane mafia is going NK you Beck as you are clearly not a power role.

also because you are mafia

lol opportunism and cognitive dissonance. I've gotta hand it to you, Rev, in the last couple of days of silence, I was drifting back towards my early Town read on you, chalking your bad reactions and such up to a reactionary personality (I have a small amount of that myself - see my early arguments with Beck.) But you've had days to cool off, and are still making slips.

What slips? You accidentally just called Beck Town with your attempts to cover up the "we're not going to kill you" slip.

WAGONS HO.

Unvote
Vote: Revenus

And you've also "confirmed" me as scum. Are you some dayvig daycop rolled into one?

Add rolefishing into the evidence.

[Pine]

No day powers but I'm the only one who has soft claimed which gives me d1 pass

Due to the Moderator severely restricting my posting abilities, I cannot possibly comment on this.

This echoes my feelings on the matter.

[Pine]

for the same reasons pine has

Revenus scumslipped.

[Pine]

P. Edit, I can post my role pm if you would like?

DO NOT DO THIS

11. Do not quote or pretend to quote any private communication, either from me or from anyone else you are allowed to talk with at night. This includes your role PM. Violators will be modkilled. You are allowed to paraphrase, but you are not allowed to plagiarize. If in doubt as to your paraphrase's legality, PM me with the wording you want to use.

[Pine]

Funny how my changing opinion of you is directly proportional of your opinion on me. When I was on your side, you couldn't sing my praises enough.

Now that I have reasons that I feel legitimate, you attack me with ad hominem scorn instead of trying to show me how I'm incorrect. That's nervous, panicking scum behavior.

Besides, if you do flip Town your reads get vindicated, and get taken even more seriously. So quit your bitching.

[Pine]

3. SV is actually pushing for a modkill here. Get him.

lolwhut? Where?

Revenus, I'll type slowly and use small words: If you flip Town. Your reads are

vindicated

Town-motivated. We would then know you weren't faking them. So we pay extra attention to them on D2. Not understanding how your reads might be vindicated if you flip Town indicates to me that you don't think that's going to happen.

[Pine]

You're too emotional to play mafia.

Go away.

Isn't that pushing for a modkill?

Umm, no.

[Pine]

You're not seeing the scumslip, Zel1nk. I'll break it down for you.

oh are we back to lynching beck, i'm still down

Unvote

Vote:Beck

for many many reasons that i've gone over before.

This post displays opportunism. Beck isn't getting lynched. We all know he isn't, and yet Revenus is willing to jump at any chance for our D1 lynch to be policy-based. Opportunism.

and no sane mafia is going NK you Beck as you are clearly not a power role.

This statement is fine, more or less, except that he's saying that no Mafia would kill Beck. This indicates that the first quote in this set of four is clearly policy-based, as it reveals a belief in Beck as Town.

also because you are mafia

Here's where it becomes a scumslip. Revenus confuses his motives, and tries to cover up for it by saying "Oh, but we should lynch you for being scum." WHAT? You just, effectively, called him Town. This is

major

cognitive dissonance

, of the sort that originates, with very few exceptions, from minds trying to pretend at scumhunting.

And you've also "confirmed" me as scum. Are you some dayvig daycop rolled into one?

This is plain-as-day rolefishing. What part of that is not clear? Beck has softclaimed a PR like a mofo, despite that being a stupid move. Here, Revenus is trying to goad Beck's frustration and generally gullible nature into a full claim, which would be a BAD THING for Town (are you listening Beck? Do not claim unless it becomes necesary). As it stands, the scum team must weigh the pros and cons of shooting Beck. He's softclaiming a strong PR, so they might want to get rid of him. On the other hand, softclaiming a PR can draw the Doc's protection (and Beck is probably not the Doc, as he requested protection), thereby negating their kill attempt. If there's a Town Watcher on Beck, it could be even worse in that they could lose a member. Et cetera. Softclaiming like this is one of the few types of WIFOM that works

for

the Town instead of against it. By attempting to trick Beck into claiming, Revenus is seeking to negate this advantage.

PE: Theam is simply maintaining his stated read. If Town, he is simply not convinced by the scum slip (though I hope this post sways him). If scum, he's just sticking to his story and choosing not to bus his buddy. It's not a shocker. Busing your buddy over this with a previously-stated Townread would be a poor, transparent move.

[Pine]

Lol, where am I directing night actions of any kind? I was talking about the scum night discussion, a place I've often been. The agonizing over who is the exact right person to shoot, struggling with the WIFOM of who a Doc or other protective role might protect, worrying about who a Watcher will observe or who a Tracker might follow. Quit misrepresenting my very valid points against you.

Beck's ridiculousness has no bearing on your attempts to rolefish him. Just because he can't keep his alleged role in his pants doesn't mean Town should be falling for it. Indeed, waving it out there as bait for anxious scum is a pretty decent strategy, and in the (unlikely) event that Beck did this on purpose to catch rolefishers, he would deserve kudos. I'd call it reverse rolefishing, and you got caught by it.

[Pine]

By the by, here are some examples of where you

have

given advice or direction to those with night actions:

If I were doc, I wouldn't be saving Beck.

Vig should be shooting people they think are scum anyways

And scum should be shooting at people they think are PR, not people they think are just "town". In your scenario, it makes it easier for vanillas to do their job and lead town during day.

Now obviously, we all say things like that. I've certainly said things similar to the above, most notably in pointing out who I consider to be vigbait.

Just try to check whether or not you're a hypocrite next time you go calling the kettle black, kay?

PE: I'm going to ignore your future attempts at fabricating a way in which either of those quotes look anything like directing the Doc. Here I

am

directing the Doc/bodyguard/whatever: Don't protect Beck.

Suck on my WIFOM, scum.

[Pine]

Well, I think that Pine's rev vote is very opportunistic...

How so? The wagon on Revenus was practically dead, and he was lurking. There was no opportunity. If anything, you might argue that I had to work hard to get it going again. Some of the people that jumped on after I re-initiated the wagon with sheepy votes, THAT can be interpreted as opportunistic.

I swear to god, "Opportunistic" is a buzzword that gets thrown around a lot on this site, and no one fucking uses it right.

[Pine]

You're not seeing the scumslip, Zel1nk.

Oh, I knew exactly what you were referring to, and I know I've said similar stuff as town, so I know it isn't a scum slip. It's a frame-of-mind-slip and doesn't necessarily mean anything in terms of Revenus's alignment.

If you've ever talked to one of your major suspects and considered the hypothetical that they're actually town, then you've probably made a similar "slip" in a past game.

An example? Have you ever told a scum suspect that they're "wrong" or something along the lines of "lynching me is bad" or whatever? Or seen town do this?

This happens when you forget to add the clause "In the hypothetical universe in which you are town..." before every sentence because it's assumed the person you're talking to understands what you mean without saying it.

It's not a scum slip.

I disagree with you, but at least see where you're coming from.

(Faraday, last night your mom's face was opportunistic...opportunistically swallowing what I gave her to swallow.)

[Pine]

@Zdenek: That only works if I feel the reasons for votes on Revenus are bad, or if I don't actually believe in a Revenus lynch. Hell, my whole change of read on Revenus is the opposite of opportunistic. Assuming for a moment that I'm scum and Revenus is Town, I could very easily have just stayed right the hell where I was on him several days ago and rubbed everyone's faces in it when he flipped Town. But I'm not scum, he's not Town, and I do actually believe the evidence against him is damning. Look at his reactions to being wagoned. He got emotional, panicky, personal, failed to engage most of the accusations against him, made repeated small scumslips, disappeared for days until the heat died down, then reappeared and made even bigger slips, rinse and fucking repeat.

(We went out for Italian, it was a very nice night. See you in about nine months.)

[Pine]

Eh, you give a general impression of scumminess, but I have a difficult time nailing down

why

exactly. In my experience, that's more often (though not always) a red herring, and indicative of a careless Town playstyle.

[Pine]

That being said, I do not believe Rev is town. His play has been all over the place, but as for being the lynch today I do not support it.

lolwhut? Fencesit a bit more.

[Pine]

That being said,

I do not believe Rev is town

. His play has been all over the place, but

as for being the lynch today I do not support it.

So you don't think he's Town, but you don't support lynching him. WHAT?

[Pine]

Okay, I've been reviewing SV's completed games. They're all listed here. Full disclosure, I've only looked at scum games so far, and I was skimming his ISO for behavioral clues rather than context. So far, his behavior seems in line with his meta as SV. However, i still regard it as similar to what I recall of Nobody Special as Town, though to a greater degree of dickishness. So it's inconclusive thus far, but plausible either way. I'm starting to think that NS/SV is just one of those people that meta doesn't work on. I'm told meta doesn't work well on me, either. I'll do more archive binging in the morning.

[Pine]

Oh please. At the peril of defending Beck, I've been wrongly called on that exact non-tell before. "Honestly", "Frankly", "Really", "TBQH", "IMHO", and all those other expressions are just that. Expressions. There is usually no sublimated dishonesty associated, it's just how people talk and write, especially in debative discourse.

[Pine]

Rev is a better wagon, Pop.

[Pine]

no u

I lol'd

[Pine]

I disagree. While I'm not an especially enthralled by the case against you (note that I haven't pushed it or even really commented) saying that there is no case on you is simply untrue. I would ask that you challenge it on its merits instead of issuing a blanket dismissal.

[Pine]

bvoigt is Town, by the way. I've thought so since his first big indictment of Revenus, the one that got ignored until the matter was pressed. This list of impressions is similar enough to mine that I can really understand where he's coming from. His activity could be better, but everything I've seen so far has been well-researched, thorough, and seemingly sincere.

[Pine]

Remind me who you suspect? I'm too lazy to ISO you.

[Pine]

1651 is :goodposting:

I wasn't sold on Slandaar as scum, but the cognitive dissonance is pretty compelling.

I find it ironic that I've come almost full circle since my wall in 433 (I think that's the number). My two top Townreads are now some of my biggest scumreads, and I've got reasonably good Townreads on some of my former scumreads. Nifty.

A lot of my nullreads remain null, mostly due to their irritating lack of content.

[Pine]

You know what's fascinating about 1499? He agrees that my case on Revenus is compelling, yet suddenly votes ScreamingHawk. Perhaps scum hedging their bets by talking smack about their buddy, but not advancing the wagon?

[Pine]

Revenus goes quiet again and we start forgetting about him.

QFT.

1661 shows a great deal of paranoia.

In 1672, Beck has an excellent point. (God help us all, I think it's blizzarding in Hell)

I have this to say about cognitive dissonance: It is one of the best and most reliable scum tells. Cognitive dissonance is defined as saying one thing and doing another, or saying one thing and then forgetting what you said and contradicting yourself. It

can

come from scatterbrained Town, but it is far more likely to come from scum that are forgetting their expressed positions and taking advantage of opportunity presenting itself to attack Townies. Now, Town can change their mind, sometimes quite quickly. But a revelation by Town is usually accompanied by an "Aha!" moment, which generally leads to an explanation and strong "This is why I now think you're scum" post. The case against Slandaar includes a large number of these sudden, unexplained reversals, which are premium examples of cognitive dissonance in action. And before he makes the case, Slandaar has shown entirely too much logical, reasoned deduction to be the sort of scatterbrained Town to jump all around.

Slandaar is an acceptable lynch for today.

[Pine]

Speaking in riddles or code is not as pro-Town as you apparently think it is.

[Pine]

David Parker indeed.

I disagree with Zdenek's assessment of Mastin. As someone who has hydra'd with him, I can say that he has no problem with compromising with scum he feels is bussing a buddy.

[Pine]

I think an end to the day will help, sorgster. A reduction in the frivolity of the posts being made would also improve the reading quality of the thread.

[Pine]

Cognitive dissonance is defined as saying one thing and doing another, or saying one thing and then forgetting what you said and contradicting yourself.

OK this is your definition fine, its wrong, but fine.

Explain to me where I did either. good luck.

This has been done, in good detail, already. You were in fact responding to the posts in which it was demonstrated.

[Pine]

VOTE: Hiraki

Actually Pine/Slaandar, would you guys be down with a Beck lynch? At worst we lynch town d1 which although unfortunate, happens all the time to far better players than Beck. At best we get rid of scum who has been mass posting in a disruptive manner, and is seriously allowing almost everyone to just pop in and comment on him. It will certainly clear up the game flow. This is just a proposition, but Beck is far and away the most antitown player in the game and I don't see any signs of improvement from him that will help us in the coming days.


And I'm fine with Hiraki and funkybike.

According to my research, Revenus has mentioned Hiraki exactly three times, four if you count 385 and 386 separately.

VOTE: Hiraki

Post 24, ISO 2. RVS vote.

Actually Pine/Slaandar, would you guys be down with a Beck lynch? At worst we lynch town d1 which although unfortunate, happens all the time to far better players than Beck. At best we get rid of scum who has been mass posting in a disruptive manner, and is seriously allowing almost everyone to just pop in and comment on him. It will certainly clear up the game flow. This is just a proposition, but Beck is far and away the most antitown player in the game and I don't see any signs of improvement from him that will help us in the coming days.


And I'm fine with Hiraki and funkybike.

Post 385, ISO 54. Expresses unspecified disapproval of Hiraki.

Their lynches I mean.

Post 386, ISO 55. Clarifies the above, again sans explanation.

BTW, Hiraki is scum.

Post 1712, ISO 198. Further unspecified accusations.

This demonstrates a CLEAR pattern of deflection and phony opinions regarding Hiraki. With so little to work with, it is impossible to determine whether this is a pathetic distancing/bussing attempt or malicious action, but it clearly shows deceit.

I move we immediately lynch Revenus, get a scum flip, and move on.

PE: Credit where it is due, 1714 is a late and lame attempt to justify the above.

[Pine]

No, I absolutely do not.

Slandaar's scumminess and Vijay's scumminess are not dependent on your flip.

Beck, bvoigt, IAAUN/Faraday, and probably sorgster are Town regardless of your flip.

In fact, I can't find a single person whose position on the Scum/Town sliding scale will move very much depending on how you flip. Hiraki is the only person who might have a codependent relationship, but that's really thin, and as previously stated, the data is insufficient to make an objective analysis, though my gut is leaning towards scumbuddies.

[Pine]

@Slandaar:

Slandaar

- I first thought of him as scum when, after a fairly vague comment about possible scum on the funkybike wagon in the 3-4-5 slot, he both unvotes and attacks me. (post 581)

- After I vote him for his interesting reaction he instantly "knows I'm scum" and votes me back. (post 644)

- He uses the extremely contrived reason that I didn't look for scum on the beck wagon as a reason why I am scum. I refute that here:

What?

It means your stance is wrong if you were town. If you thought people pushing a wagon who you find town are scum then thats fine, but you did not use it to find scum pushing the beck wagon so you are just using anything you can to back up your vote otherwise you would not find beck town and everyone pushing his wagon town.

Your stance summed up: someone thinks funky is scum they must be scum!

There is no way you believe that, you must be scum.

I actually understand what you are getting at here, but I don't think the two situations are comparable. In fact I find this accusation patently ridiculous. I didn't even realise Beck had a wagon on him until rereading and I found out that he had a total of 4 votes on him on page 5, barely after we had gotten out of the random voting stage. I hadn't even gotten a town read on Beck at that stage which makes your accusation even more invalid.

- He shows extreme cognitive dissonance by stating at the same time that "I must know funky is town" (he says this a few times, for example post 699) and also that "funky is probably scum". I point that out here:

I will respond later tonight, but I will quickly point out this;

I feel like the scum is sitting back and sniping. In any case it's what I'd do as scum.

What has funky been doing exactly? yeah sitting back and sniping (bussing) so, how did you get this magical funky is town read? because his wagon was going too well? but wait a second, wasnt funky doing exactly what you think the scum are? so the votes should be vindicated from your standpoint surely?

No, basically. Who's he bussing btw? I thought you said I knew funky was town?

@ everyone else: does anyone else see how slandaars case on me has changed from "he knows funky is town", to "not using same logic for beck's wagon", to "there's no way he could assume funky is town", to "he's justifying his sky read". Plus he is saying that I "know that funky is town" while at the same time is claiming funky is actually scum...
Guy's scum. Vote him.

- There are other minor points as well, such as this lovely little flip-flop:

can someone lay out the case on shattered? he hasnt contributed much and is pretty delusional but I have not really seen any scummy behaviour as such

Hmm. slandaar making sense. Credit where it is due.

Shattered is delusional and isnt a bad lynch

Wait, what? You just said you "have not really seen any scummy behaviour as such". I was actually starting to feel you might be town, but that feeling has died.

And don't pretend you couldn't find this. You were directly responding to my reaction to this post. Particularly damning is the dissonance between 899 and 926.

[Pine]

First, it's spelled "lying". Major pet peeve.

Second, you said one thing about SV, then turned around and said something completely different without qualifying your apparent change in opinion with any sort of explanation. That is textbook cognitive dissonance, and is representative of the pretending-to-scumhunt mentality of scum.

Please point out where I have lied. Characterizing it as such does not make it so.

[Pine]

OK, look, if i say 'someone hasnt done anything scummy'

then say not a bad lynch there is no contradiction

a bad lynch would be someone i find town, i do not and did not find SV town, so hes not a bad lynch, comprende?

So, contradiction? hm no. I did not say 'lets lynch SV' he was basically a PL, which I didnt mind too much, so, why are you trying to say i contradicted myself?

Pine is showing major cognitive dissonance here

he said the first part of the post was where i contradicted myself (the part ThAd calls cognitive dissonance)

Now hes saying its the later minor point of the post.

I will not be responding to this further, for two reasons. First, the inherent stupidity of your whining about the valid cognitive dissonance case against you and your irritating attempts to call everyone who speaks against you a liar. Second, arguing with scum is always an exercise in futility that I am choosing not to take part in any more.

[Pine]

I did. That is my last word on this for now, I will let the strength of my arguments thus far do the talking for me, and the other 20 players decide whether I have sufficiently explained myself.

[Pine]

lol sudden Beckscum read. Retaliatory scumreads ftl

[Pine]

Boys, can the genital-measuring contest end? I won a long time ago, and it's just getting old.

OLOLO

We're not going to find equipment calibrated to small enough increments any time soon, so so the two of you will just have to live with it remaining an unsettled issue.

[Pine]

I'm envisioning a dart board with twenty names written on the twenty wedges, and the twenty-first occupying the center of the board. I'm further envisioning a blindfold, a dart, and perhaps alcohol played a role.

[Pine]

With the deadline three days away, I propose we take a poll.

Everyone, in your next post, please list anyone you would be comfortable lynching. Anyone who gets more than five votes, we'll continue discussing as a potential lynchees. Anyone with less, we table discussion on them until Day Two as non-viable lynches (and therefore wastes of our time).

Here's the list:
01. sorgster
02. ThAdmiral
03. Velzanath
04. theamatuer
05. SodaSpirit17-->Being replaced
06. sword_of_omens
07. ZeL1nK
08. Mastin
09. Shattered Viewpoint
10. ScreamingHawk
11. vijay2vasandani
12. Zdenek
13. popsofctown
14. Revenus
15. Pine
16. slandaar
17. funkybike1
18. Hiraki
19. Sky
20. iamausername/Faraday
21. Beck
22. bvoigt

Of those, I am ready to participate in the lynches of theamateur, Vijay, Revenus, and slandaar.

[Pine]

^In order based on number, though it ended up being in increasing desire to see them lynched (Rev and Slandaar have recently switched places on that list). In accordance with that,

Unvote
Vote: Slandaar

PE: Would it not make more sense to wait until there's a replacement? I chose to leave Soda off of my list for that reason. Soda mostly did jack, so I'd prefer to hear a replacement out.

[Pine]

Results of poll (current up to 1788):
Slandaar-2.5*
Revenus-2
Shattered Viewpoint-2
theamateur-1
Vijay-1
Soda/Replacement-1
Funkybike-1
Zdenek-1
Ze1ink-1
ThAd-1
Pops-1
Pine-.5*

*.5 from Hiraki's dichotomy of Slandaar/Pine

This is seriously what Hiraki did: Take 4 names that people are supsicious of, throw them in a list, and say "maybe i think that maybe one of these guys is maybescum i don't know"

Nobody is suspicious of pine or admiral. If that was true his list would be screaming, vijay, you and slandaar.

Additionally, the list Hiraki gave is quite consistent with what he's been saying right along. Now you're guilty of misrepresenting people with possible intent to frame them as opportunistic, too.

[Pine]

Remind me who you suspect? I'm too lazy to ISO you.

Admiral, Pops

for the moment

(lol, not the person who pops suspected slipping!?!?!?!? WHY HIRAKI!?!?!)

^Suspicion of Admiral and Pops

Oh. That reminds me.

Unvote, Vote: ThAdmiral

I dunno why, but the wind gives good feelings!

^Suspicion of ThAd

It isn't, though. I've already said why. The slip was bad, but not bad enough.

so you admit that there was a slip

but apparently the slip wasn't bad enough

huh

well, there's numero dos

^Suspicion of Pops

Only the Pine/Slandaar dichotomy is relatively new, and that is quite justifiable, as the row between the two of us has only come about in the last couple of days. So again, I don't know where you get this:

This is seriously what Hiraki did: Take 4 names that people are supsicious of, throw them in a list, and say "maybe i think that maybe one of these guys is maybescum i don't know"

...from, as the list he gave is in fact consistent with what he's been expressing for some time. It looks like you did not do your research on him, as I did, and jumped on him actually giving some content as an excuse to smear his name a bit more.

[Pine]

Poor quote nesting, Beck. It was indeed directed at Rev.

[Pine]

Revenus, I'm not entirely sure why you continue to be intentionally obtuse. Upon your allegation that Hiraki simply threw four names together being conclusively proven to be false and specious, you changed tack entirely instead of admitting you were wrong, and instead attacked the validity of the reads given, while insulting and attacking (without basis or explanation) the people who just did the proving.

Serious question: do you have rage issues? And are you seeking professional help for your retaliation problem?

[Pine]

Rev, those 2 posts are separated by almost 700 posts, people can't change their mind?

This.

As for discussing people other than you and Slandaar, I really don't think that deserves a serious response. I've discussed everyone in the thread at this point.

What about Velz's play is scummy? There's a big lack of content, but he just replaced in to a 70+ page thread. Chill.

But Pine defending scummy behavior because he's so tunneled in on me makes me even more suspicious of him.

Where?

[Pine]

Results of poll (current up to 1823):
Slandaar-3.5*
Revenus-3
Vijay-2
Shattered Viewpoint-2
Hiraki-2
theamateur-1
Soda/Replacement-1
Funkybike-1
Zdenek-1
Ze1ink-1
ThAd-1
Pops-1
ScreamingHawk
Pine-.5*

*.5 from Hiraki's dichotomy of Slandaar/Pine

[Pine]

Results of poll (current up to 1823):
Slandaar-3.5*
Revenus-3
Vijay-2
Shattered Viewpoint-2
Hiraki-2
theamateur-1
Soda/Replacement-1
Funkybike-1
Zdenek-1
Ze1ink-1
ThAd-1
Pops-1
ScreamingHawk-1
Pine-.5*

*.5 from Hiraki's dichotomy of Slandaar/Pine

Fixed.

Input from everyone would be appreciated. Considering that most people seem to agree that this poll is an idea that doesn't outright suck, boycotting it only prevents your opinions from being heard.

[Pine]

As has already been stated, the point is to get a feel for who the group at large is willing to consider, and thus narrow down our topics of discussion as deadline looms. For example, the initial results indicate that despite some fanatic minority opinions, there are likely only 5-6 candidates that 12 of us could agree upon by deadline. It will help us focus our objectives by determining what is a good topic to shelve until Day Two and what we ought to be pressing. Normally, simply voting would accomplish this, but I don't think a wagon has built over four or five all game, so we have to sift through peoples' secondary and tertiary suspects for an acceptable compromise. A compromise lynch is far preferable to a no lynch, as a flip of any sort will give us solid information to work with.

[Pine]

A more specific example is this - at no point do I recall ever having voted for Vijay. And yet, he is my third choice for a lynch. In a game this size, with a scumteam likely numbering five or six, third picks are quite reasonable. However, we tend not to push hard on anyone but our top one or two. So a poll gives a more in-depth survey of where common ground can be found. I didn't realize so many really thought Hiraki a viable lynch, for example (add one to his tally, I missed Theam's statement in 1814 last count), and I thought the group supported a SV lynch more.

PE: I've never seen this done before, because I've never been in a game quite like this one. Why don't you give us your list?

[Pine]

It has generated positive discussion, forced some people to commit to reads, has directed the Town's focus, drawn out some of the quieter players, and has significantly reduced the inanities of the current trend of idiots whining. I suppose some of the focusing benefits that Town is experiencing would also apply to scum, but I'm really not thinking in that vein. All I see is the deadline looming a few days away and the Town still wallowing in wagons a third of the size necessary. The net gain is noticeably pro-Town.

[Pine]

-_-

through page 19. as deadline's so close im going to just skip near the end and read your sixty-ish pages between as i find time; can someone please give a quick recap of any major events like claims, deaths or day actions? and a votecount?

far as ive read hikari, funky, reve, sorgster and theama seem scummiest; in order.

No one has claimed anything, though there was a brief point where Rev sarcastically said he was going to vig Beck, then stated the obvious that it was a joke, and a few other people mocked him by also claiming vig. No one appeared serious. No deaths, no day actions, and about 60% of this thread is arguing and genital-measuring between the same three people (Beck, Rev, Slandaar,) and whoever they briefly manage to drag into it. I admit to not being strong enough to resist rising to the bait when so engaged, but I try to get out when I've thoroughly defeated their arguments, whether they notice or not.

Shall I add those five name to the poll for you? The reason the poll isn't malleable by scum is that Town outnumbers them by probably three or four to one. So yes, scum have influence on it, but they can't throw the results off much without being terribad obvious.

I'm fine with lynching anyone but me. Add 1 point to everyone in the game for that poll.

I'll add one to everyone for you, and add one to your name from me for this incredibly scummy post.

Slandaar-5.5*
Hiraki-5
Revenus-4
Vijay-4
Shattered Viewpoint-3
Ze1ink-3
ThAd-3
Pops-3
Zdenek-3
Pine-2.5*
theamateur-2
Toxic-2
Funkybike-2
ScreamingHawk-2
Beck-2
Everyone Else-1**

*.5 due to Hiraki's Pine/Slandaar dichotomy
**Zelink willing to lynch anyone but himself.

Updated through 1880, does not include Toxic's list.

[Pine]

Math for shits and giggles:

Beck+Slandaar+Revenus
469+226+224=919 posts=48.67% of the thread

There are 22 players.

In short:

Shut the hell up you spammy bastards.

[Pine]

Hypocrisy is spelled with an 's'.

My posts have generally been content-filled and on-topic, whereas you wantonly and willingly engage in circular arguments that lend no credence to the opposing party's thoughts and fail at their most basic level to evolve beyond anything more than "I FOUND SOMETHING TINY THAT I THINK IS IMPORTANT!!!1! WHY AREN'T YOU ADMITTING THAT I'M RIGHT AND YOU SUCK!!!11!! OMFG, NO U!!!!one!"

In demonstration of my non-hypocrisy, I will now be moving on, once again having thoroughly stated my position and choosing not to devolve into bickering ad infinitem.

[Pine]

Keep reading, Maxous. Rev keeps it pretty tight in the early game, but he implodes once some suspicion (initially for bad reasons) falls on him. His reactions to being wagoned are among the scummiest I've ever seen, dominated by a motif of deflecting suspicion back at anyone who DARES point a finger at him. His 180 on me is a good example. When we were sharing similar opinions on some people, he couldn't extol my virtues enough. I call him on a few minor things, and he flips a shit on me and generally freaks out into panic mode.

[Pine]

You were making ridiculous arguments. The fact that I will now interact with you demonstrates the principle of operant conditioning through negative reinforcement.

[Pine]

Confused how ScreamingHawk became Toxic when going from your first list to your second. Otherwise I agree.

[Pine]

I concur, though I would expand it to include Slandaar, as he is notably leading in the acceptable-lynch poll.

[Pine]

Moar slandaar votes.

That is all.

[Pine]

Nice not scummy at all vote Hiraki.

It isn't. Hiraki has been consistently wanting a Pops lynch.

His unvote and revote is scummy though.

Nothing else really significant happened over night except Slandaar's claim. You don't unvote someone claiming VT, nor someone self-voting. It's on page three and seven of the scum handbook, respectively, and those moves are designed to produce the uncertainty some of you are now feeling. I swear to god, half of this thread has unmedicated ADHD when it comes to their votes.

[Pine]

Anyways I am VT, you should lynch me today as im pretty confident my reads are good.

This is not an obv town-tell. I have seen scum do this before when they thought they were in trouble to get lynched.

I've not only seen it, I've pulled it off with some success, too.

[Pine]

The case was somewhat reasonable, but not especially strong. What I'm baffled about is why people are still voting for him when he's replaced out. Almost as if they want to ignore his replacement.

[Pine]

Yeah, Iam is not voting Soda and his case is not strong.

Slandaar looks terrible but I'm assuming he's town based on gut.

Hiraki is bad bad bad. Should be voting him.

I don't know if this is the scummiest post of the game, but it definitely deserves consideration from the nomination committee.

[Pine]

@Beck - I was going based solely on recollection, I don't recall a specific, point-by-point case. I may be confusing cases made in [REDACTED]. If you say one hasn't been made here, I have no reason to doubt you.

[Pine]

Slandaar looks scummy-->Gonna call him Town
Hiraki is "bad bad bad"--->Not gonna vote for him

In fairness, the first time I read the quoted post it looked like you were saying that you would be voting Soda though the case was not strong. I attribute that confusion to the haste and increasing annoyance I feel when reading your posts.

@Beck: You've gotten tolerable lately, and I find you so Towny that if you say you've done the research and no cogent case exists, I have no reason to doubt it. Now, if a case had existed and you'd put a value judgment on said case, I'd make my own assessment.

[Pine]

Hiraki-7
Slandaar-6.5*
Vijay-6
Revenus-4
Pops-4
ScreamingHawk-4
Shattered Viewpoint-3
Ze1ink-3
ThAd-3
Zdenek-3
Soda/Toxic-3
Funkybike-3
Pine-2.5*
theamateur-2
Beck-2
Sword_of_omens/Maxous-2
Everyone Else-1**

*.5 due to Hiraki's Pine/Slandaar dichotomy
**Zelink willing to lynch anyone but himself.

Updated through 1996, does not include Toxic's ambiguous list.

[Pine]

I'm starting to lose track of the poll a bit as people change their minds, contradict themselves, and ignore the poll etc.

With about a day to go, I propose we follow the protocol suggested at the beginning of the poll, and everyone drop their cases on anyone aside from Hiraki, Slandaar, and Vijay.

Of the three, my case on Slandaar continues to be the strongest. Hiraki is guilty mostly of active lurking and trolling, and though Vijay is a good option that I am willing to switch to at deadline if necessary (rather than no lynch), there are more specific and demonstrable scummy actions to be found in Slandaar.

[Pine]

Hiraki, I feel I am going to be lynched today, I am sorry I let you down, I tried but I was caught in the act of distancing from you , I dunno how they caught me this guy called beck hes some kind of detective mastermind or something, I am sure they will lynch you tomorrow once my real role is discovered, maybe if you use your day powers you can save me otherwise I fear the worst for both of us.

Forever your buddy

Slandaar.

You probably could have forced a no-lynch if you'd just shut your trap but NOOOO, can't do THAT!

Moron. Ignoring WIFOM.

[Pine]

God DAMN do I hate when scum gives up when they've still got a chance. It's just bad sportsmanship. Like when you're playing a board game with someone (Risk or Stratego come to mind for this simile) and they eventually decide to quit when you get a little ahead. NOT THE POINT. Idiot. Whatever.

And if he's Town doing some retarded gambit, he's going on a blacklist so dark it'll be blurple.

PE: *twitch* "Longest" is already a superlative. Learn English more better.

[Pine]

Eh...this could qualify as legitimate WIFOM.

If the mods are willing to accept my opinion, I suggest we just lynch Slandaar and move on.

[Pine]

What? I've been advocating Slandaar's death for a long time now, and a modkill is fine by me. Don't twist my words, asshat.

What I meant is that I don't want the game ruined for scum unfairly by the mods giving an ambiguous opinion on whether Slandaar was or was not outing a scumbuddy. I intend to win it fair and square.

[Pine]

I propose then that we let the mods kill Slandaar and lynch either Hiraki or Vijay.

Personally, I would prefer the latter.

Unvote
Vote: Vijay

[Pine]

I dropped the case on you, Rev, because I'm following my own advice regarding the poll. You can wait until Day Two.

I'm really getting annoyed by the insistence on twisting my words. At no point did I advocate Slandaar not be modkilled. He committed a modkillable offense and deserves to die for it. What I want is for the mods not to comment further on it.

Of the remaining two candidates that the players at large can feasibly agree to lynch, Vijay is a better option. Additionally, I am uncertain how to interpret Slandaar's blatant attempt at WIFOM, and would like more time to consider it.

[Pine]

As previously stated, I've not really focused on Vijay much today, instead concentrating on the (correct) case against Slandaar, the case on Revenus, and contending with the bountiful idiots of this thread in an attempt to prevent the near-no lynch that this day has come perilously close to. My reasoning on Vijay is largely dependent on others' cases and little things, buoyed by a strong gut feeling against him.

PE: The poll tells us who can reasonably

get

lynched, and has no bearing on who is actually scum. I feel Revenus is one of the worst people in the thread, but is not a viable candidate. I had hoped this would waste less time, but I've spent so much time justifying an obvious concept that it may be self-defeating.

I was on board with Vijay prior to the poll, and gave my opinions first. I have stayed true to my initial opinions, with the exception of adding Zel1nk to my list. So...with no data available prior to my opinions being given, how in the hell could I have used the poll to sheep? Asshat.

[Pine]

@Mod

: Is Slandaar modkilled?

[Pine]

Vote: Revenus

Yep.