NY 176: Completely Ridiculous Mafia (Game Over)

[Mirhawk]

Sup dudes

I think clearly Izy's problem is that he spends too much time playing games to get his stories published. Fortunately I know just how to solve that problem.

Vote: Izariael

[Mirhawk]

Ah that reminds me, do we know who the members of the hydra's are?

[Mirhawk]

Good to know, I'm familiar with most of those players.

[Mirhawk]

Why does this matter to you?

I was curious if I had played with any of them before.

@TSO
Objectively speaking what made Bob better then Cabd at the time you placed the vote?

Unvote
Vote: Bob

I'm not a big fan of coincidences, the fact that you just happened to vote the person who voted you after missing the post he voted you in is kind of hard to swallow.

[Mirhawk]

What's the scum motivation, though?

I can't actually think of one, I just didn't believe it was a coincidence.

I did see his vote, but I'd already decided to vote him when I saw it

it's not that spectacular

I suspected as much, why didn't you say this when you were first called on it?

[Mirhawk]

Because he tried to cover up an OMGUS.

A better way to cover up omgus is to just not omgus.

If he knew what he was doing was suspicious enough to cover up why do it in the first place?

[Mirhawk]

Believe it or not I was actually serious when I asked you why you pretended your vote wasn't omgus.

[Mirhawk]

I don't actually care weather the vote was or wasn't omgus.

I want to know why you stated that you hadn't read TSO's post when in fact you did.

[Mirhawk]

I actually read page 3 before page 2 and decided I'd vote you if no one had said anything scummier on page 2

the fact that it's a crossvote is a bonus though

I did see his vote, but I'd already decided to vote him when I saw it

it's not that spectacular

Hrm I meant these two posts, though upon reading them next to each other I realize they don't actually say what I thought they said. For some reason I thought you said you didn't read his post in 54.

[Mirhawk]

Unvote

@Bob
What makes Jimmy worth voting over the other players who are being useless? I'm referring of course to Aegor, and MVP.

[Mirhawk]

@Toon
What do you think of the debate over Bob? His behaviour has drawn votes, do you think those votes are justified?

I'm finding TSO's behavior kind of offputting. It seems to be mostly snark and jokes, with very little effort being put into looking for scum.

[Mirhawk]

Aren't you voting for him?

No I unvoted. My interest in his vote on Jimmy isn't enough to sustain a scumread seeing as how I was wrong about his responses to TSO.

[Mirhawk]

[...] but I will continue voting for Toomai in order to push for his mislynch.

1. How is pushing for this mislynch pro-town?
2. How do you know it's a mislynch?
3. How do you expect to get others to join in what you state to be a mislynch?

I have no response to those questions.

....
Alright, well something shitty is going on here. I don't know if we're missing something, but someone who is pushing for a mislynch is obviously not helping us... I've seen Aegor's town game, even his cop game, and this isn't it.

VOTE: Aegor

Start providing real information, please.

This entire line of reasoning is ridiculous.


Unless someone can think of a reason for Aegor to publicly declare his intention to mislynch it's pretty obvious he was joking.

In fact I find Toon's questions kind of scummy. If you stop to think about them for a moment you'll realize that the answers to all of them are very obvious, so obvious in fact that they're almost non-questions. This begs the question of why did Toon ask them.

Vote: Toomai

[Mirhawk]

It's not
He doesn't
He can't

[Mirhawk]

I can explain why these are the answers if you want, but I think it's pretty obvious.

[Mirhawk]

We're talking about Aegor right?

In that case yeah, it's obvious he actually knows nothing. Therefore it's safe to wave the post off as a joke.

How serious do you think his vote was? He made it in his first post.

[Mirhawk]

bob beat me in a scumgames eons ago.

Possibly because this is the sum of your scumhunting?

What do you think of recent developments.

[Mirhawk]

I have a minor scumread on Toon because I think his questions were unnecessary, as well as possibly being leading. But that's kind of tenuous.

I'm currently watching Bob as well, I want to know his reasons behind suspecting Jimmy. This isn't so much a scumread though as something I'm keeping an eye on.


I'm not saying I disagree with the read on TWIE, but I am curious as to your reasons for it.

[Mirhawk]

While I am interested in your responses, you aren't a scumread.

I want a feel for what you think of the current direction of the game.

[Mirhawk]

This is interesting, but I think I'll just keep watching till the hullabullo dies down.

@Toom
I'd really rather you stayed, the others might be inclined to do something silly like give your replacement the benefit of the doubt if you replaced out.

[Mirhawk]

DJ is scummy for popping up as soon as he was mentioned and then still not reading the game.

This is pertinent.

Also his line of reasoning regarding who can or cannot answer questions is bizarre and feels like he's grasping at straws.

I find his posts kind of weird. I have it on good authority this is the technical term for this behavior.

[Mirhawk]

Depends on the question really.

If the question is answered to my satisfaction and I wasn't asking to ascertain a specific players stance on a topic, then no.

As I see it the problem isn't that you wanted Ki-gi to answer the question, it's that you insisted that he should have taken exception to someone else answering it. Which I see as a strange stance to take.

Also seeing as how you want to talk to me how about you answer of mine.

Why do I have the impression you were actively lurking?

[Mirhawk]

Explain to me why you think its ok for AP to interfere in our convo?

Shouldn't you be getting on reinoe's back or for answering your question for you?

Also that's a non-answer and you know it.

[Mirhawk]

no? I think Reinoe is clearly trolling and even if he's not then I don't really suspect him nor am I calling AP scum for answering a question/giving his two cents. (as you are implying) I only think he's scummy if Ki-Gi flips scum.

If your take away from my ki's convo is that I'm mad that he doesn't suspect AP then either I haven't done a good job of explaining why I suspect him or you are just flat out not reading and I'm going with door #2 here.

I also don't think I've been active lurking at all. I think I was inactive this game and then CABD lead the derpy charge that I was scummy for this and now everyone (including yourself) is piggybacking that argument.

You're door two option feels right for a reason. Mostly because I don't really care about what you and KI-Gi were talking about. My impression from that entire line of dialog was that you were pursuing a silly line of reasoning, and were trying very hard to make it look serious.

Your reaction to him not answering the question was also way out of proportion to the offense. I would have expected you to maybe ask him the question again, or ask if agreed with the other answer or something like that. Not go in all out attack mode and demand answers while simultaneously insinuating that it was scummy to allow others to "intrude" on your conversation.

I also don't like that you're distancing yourself from the lurking point. Calling it "Cabd's derpy change" is a soft discredit on what was a very valid point. You weren't posting, then you showed up to respond when you were mentioned. Claiming you hadn't read the game only makes this look worse as that makes it even less likely that you could just happen to notice the post you were mentioned in.

if this was how you felt why did you wait to post about it and not say this in 451?

I was feeling snarkier then I had been in 514. Also I had to go back and dig up that quote of you demanding that Ki-Gi had to be offended by someone else answering his question.

Mirhawk, why do you think Toomai is scummier than TSO or Reinoe?

Toomai's questions were scummy.

His questions were unnecessary and give me the vibe that he was trying to look like he was scumhunting while not actually doing it.

And if they were serious questions I see them as being even worse. Aegor probably couldn't have actually answered those questions without looking either foolish or scummy. Which makes me think that they were loaded questions, which is to say questions designed to make Aegor look bad. I don't just find that anti town, I think that's right out scummy.

As for TSO and reinoe, I'm nullish on both of them. Objectively speaking I find TSO scummier then reinoe, but that's kind of splitting hairs.

[Mirhawk]

Not rereading is best. I already consider the last ten pages to be "the twilight zone", where good arguments go to die.

See what I don't get is what you were hoping to learn with those questions. Had Aegor answered them what would you have learned from his responses?

And yes that is a problem. Because if those were really serious questions then that means you think there was a possibility of Aegor telling you he thought pushing mislynches was protown, or that he could have had information about your alignment somehow, or that he had some magical plan that would make everyone vote for you.

I suppose there's a remote possibility of him being a daycop or something like that but even that would only make your question rolefishing.

[Mirhawk]

I honestly don't understand how you (and apparently AP and Cephir) can't understand why I'm p suspicious of Ki-Gi. He made an accusation, I asked him to back it up, he couldn't and then stalled for several posts until finally sheeping Cabd's reasoning when all this could have easily been avoided if he had said "I'm just agreeing with Cabd on this" or something along those lines. Explain to me the town motivation there.

This whole thing that I demanded Ki-Gi to be suspicious of AP is pretty silly and I really really really hate how you are trying to make it about that and not about Ki-Gi not backing up his accusation.

I think my reaction to Ki-Gi in 416 was rather tame so I think you calling it "out of proportion" is rather weak.

"Claiming you hadn't read the game only makes this look worse as that makes it even less likely that you could just happen to notice the post you were mentioned in."
So your theory is that I'm scum and instead of going and reading the game or w/e I brought even more attention to myself by claiming I haven't read that game. Totes makes sense.

I'm not comfortable with the way you keep trying to drag this conversation into being a discussion about KI-Gi. My stance on the matter is simply that I think the way you reacted was out of proportion to the circumstances. If you find that weak that's your prerogative, but this has never been about whether Ki-Gi answered you questions or not for me.

Also drowning the fact that it looks like you were active lurking in wifom does not in fact excuse the fact that you're pretending that there's no scum motivation for a scum player to actively lurk.

[Mirhawk]

Also I thought only some of MVP was V/LA. The rest of him hasn't posted in three days.

Can I request a prod on the half of MVP that isn't V/LA

[Mirhawk]

Yes, I know that scum do lurk. I also know that nothing is a 100% scum tell and that I'm town. This "well you need to admit that there's scum motivation in lurking" is

Also to be active lurking I would have had to be posting....

So if you admit that scum lurk why were you insisting that Cabd's wagon was a derpwagon? It seems the people who doubted you had a legitimate reason for doing so.

Arguments such as "there's no such thing as a 100% scumtell" and "I know I'm town" are also bad arguments.

The first is glaring obvious, and it pretty much goes without saying that everyone who voiced concern about you lurking was doing so because they thought there was a good chance you were doing so as scum.

I don't think I even need to explain why the second is terrible.

[Mirhawk]

Maybe the game would be less boring if you were doing something other then lurking and spamming up the thread?

Actually don't. This is leading to your death and that's fine.

[Mirhawk]

I suppose that's fair but I still find it suspicious. It is however not particularly important, I would much rather lych Toomai anyways.

How am I ignoring MVP? Also he doesn't need my help to get him lynched, he's doing a fine job on his own.

[Mirhawk]

Mirhawk, AP, what do you think of Toomai's 681?

I agree with AP. He doesn't say anything that make him look either more town or scum.

Even his strongest scumread doesn't have a reason attached for it other then a vague allusion that it may or may not be someone else's read.

---

I think I might have some conformation bias but I like the way MVP interacted with DJ, in that it was logical and felt like a legitimate thought process. However pretty much everything else he says is ugh.

I doubt I would vote for reinoe or TSO today. In fact I rather they both push their secondary suspects.

Cephrir is not only trying to have no opinion on anything, but he's pretty much flat out saying that that's what he's doing. Nobody seems to care though.

[Mirhawk]

The reason nobody can answer that is because DJ is scum.

[Mirhawk]

I would say there is guaranteed scum in Toomai/MVP/DJ.

This is swell, I like it.

If I switch to MVP now can I have Toomai tomorrow?

[Mirhawk]

Yeah no, the entire thing looks terrible.

Cabd's question does suck. Any line of inquiry that would have come from it being answered would have been useless.
At best I think the question was rhetorical. If it was a serious question then I have no idea what he was getting at.

Reinoe's response sucks too. Mostly because it was unwarranted, and contained an implicit threat.

[Mirhawk]

why are you lining up lynches and using aegor's hyperbole as an excuse to vote MVP?

it's just three players with no useful connection except for the fact that they've all been wagoned

Because I'm coming to the realization that none of the people I really want dead are going to end up that way today.

MVP's and okay lynch, we could easily do worse. Besides if we leave him alive we're just going to have the same arguments to lynch him day two.

I'm not basing my scumreads on associations between players. Doing that before we have any flips would just be pointless guesswork.

[Mirhawk]

so what was the obvious thing cabd was doing

Cabd was seeing if everything Toomai says and does is just contentless reasonless garbage. Look at Toomai's ISO it's all apathetic crap that allows him not to take responsibility for anything. It's all..."I'm just not sure: we'll see what happens: I don't know what it does: I'm not confident in any of this...."

Toomai claims that my entrance put the game back in silly mode: that's horseshit and Toomai's 327 is gahdawfull.

I don't disagree with this, but why did you shut down Izy?

[Mirhawk]

Can't we just lynch Toomai today?

[Mirhawk]

@Toomai
The 472 you're attributing to DJ was actually said by Aegor.

@MVP
So is there like some kind of reason I shouldn't be hammering you?

Like a claim or something?

[Mirhawk]

@DJ
My other options include you and Toomai.
Besides I already stated why I would be willing to vote MVP. Do you have a question about that?

@Toomai
I'm confused as to how that could be considered a part of your read on DJ.
Are you just using the post to illustrate that DJ was lurking? If so why didn't you just say that.

[Mirhawk]

@DJ
You probably aren't a lynch candidate for today. I'm saying that I would be willing to lynch you.

You're my secondary scumread. I'm fairly certain I've stated this before.

I would rather lynch Toomai over you, but would rather lynch either of you over MVP.

But unlike you and Toomai, I think MVP is viable.

[Mirhawk]

All of MVP is experienced enough to know what to do at l-1. I guess I can't really explain it well but I think that Mir immediately threatening to hammer (implied) with 4 days to dl when MVP isn't his #1 suspect just seems odd to me.

I am continually pissed off that people seem to think that having time remaining some kind of terrible thing.

Every lynch made in a games I've played recently that waited till the last minute was a shitty compromise.

We have four days left isn't a valid argument for anything unless you think we're going to make better choices when we're desperate.

[Mirhawk]

So I should have said nothing, and hammered him without signaling intent?

[Mirhawk]

You might be able to make an argument that my tone was aggressive.

But I sincerely doubt you can find a way to interpret my post as anything other then.

"Intent to hammer, claim now".

[Mirhawk]

I didn't/don't think you're a possible lynch for today, so this statement is silly.

I do, however, think you're scummy and would lynch you if I thought it were possible. Maybe on day 2, if I survive the night. Something to look forward to for both of us. It'll be fun.

I'm not seeing why this isn't possible today. I know for a fact that there's at least as many people with DJ in their scumlist as there are on the Bob wagon.

I don't want to lynch Toomai. reinoe or MVP.

How do you feel about DJ? Also why not Toomai?

As for the hydra, we have been consulting. We have consulted but we disagree on things. The scumread we agree on (Mirhawk) is unlikely to be lynched. So we have agreed to put our vote where useful and reassess daily.

You know I was just ignoring the fact that you've been calling me your primary scumread all day since I know you don't have shit on me, but let's talk about it. It'll be fun.
Why am I scum, and why is whatever you're going to accuse me of scummy? Is there even a scum motivation for me to do this hypothetical thing?
From where I'm standing your case amounts to
"OMGUS! You just called me out on being a lurky dirtbag"!

Why dont you think Toomai is viable? I know Aegor and I have been talking about that most of the game Day.

Because aside from you, me, and Aegor everyone seems to be reluctant to even so much as look at him.
I mean despite the fact that he's managed to spend the entirety of day one doing absolutely NOTHING.

[Mirhawk]

Bob votes make no sense and are really, really bad. Surely scum would have PMed the mod about such questions? I PMed the mod about the GS results. There is no reason to post in-thread; it is null.

Agree.

"Bob is dumb so he posted a question highlighting his scumrole in the thread" is a terrible scumtell.

[Mirhawk]

Just this whole idea that you and Mir are pushing that I need to "admit if something has scum motivation" is such a silly silly argument. You two are pushing a mislynch. There's scum motivation in that. So when I flip town that means you guys are scum right, I mean there's scum motivation there. What happens if Cabd and/or Reinoe flip town? That means you are pushing mislynchs and there's scum motivation in that. You are essentially chain lynching here and there's scum motivation in that. This argument is really stupid.

So you think I'm scum for pushing a lynch on someone you think is town? And that person just happens to be you?

You're argument in that post is a logical nightmare. I'm scummy for pushing for a mislynch? How on earth would I know it was a mislynch unless I was scum? Do you think I know it's a mislynch?
This is literally an argument so bad that you could cut and paste onto any player in this game, no matter who they're voting, and it would still have the same effect.

Also how is it you keep posting opinions on who we should lynch if that's all you have for your top scumread?

Feeling like MVP's claim is fake.

MVP's claim wasn't great and it very well could be fake. I don't feel strongly enough to pursue it though, and I get the feeling that's the general town sentiment. There isn't really any harm in letting it slide for now.

---

A nice post from Toomai.
By favorite bit is the part with no analysis at all. You know, the whole thing.

[Mirhawk]

@goodmorning
I'm going to be V/LA over the weekend as I'm going to be moving.

I'll try and keep up if I have the opportunity, but that's just a maybe.

I won't be leaving until Friday morning, so if you guys have any questions for me try to ask before then.

[Mirhawk]

blargh

@goodmorning
I'm going to be V/LA over the weekend as I'm going to be moving.

[Mirhawk]

Everybody's who either town reading or scumreading reinoe for meta related reasons should just stop. Seriously. This is stupid.

Just as stupid as thinking reinoe is scummy for answering that question about scum meta.

Just as stupid as reinoe answering that question.

And just as stupid as that question being asked in the first place.

It's stupid right through.

That post was a reply to Iz's accusation that I am scummy for not scum reading his biggest scumreads. His reply was that there was scum motivation in it and therefore scummy for it. Though to be fair, he did clarify that he wasn't going to push this unless Cabd/ren flips scum.

I'm clearly mocking him (and not talking about why I suspect you) 'cause this "admit there's scum motivation!" is a p bad argument.

But THIS is why I suspect you. I think you are butting in on things you'd don't understand and then being argumentative for the sake of arguing. You are doing it here and you did it when I was clearly fussing at flake alt ki-gi for not really backing up his earlier accusation. Its ignoring the gamestate and there's scum motivation in that so you obviously have to be scum.

Oh sorry, seeing as how you

IGNORED

my previous question about why you thought I was scummy I had to leap at the opportunity to actually talk about your scumreads.

Establishing motive is not a bad arguemnt. I don't even understand how you could possibly think it is. You tried to pretend that there was no way scum would have behaved as you did, thus making your behavior not scummy. When the reality was that there was a clear advantage to scum acting in that manner.

Your third paragraph there is so terrible I don't even know how it exists.
I'm not allowed to voice opinions on conversations in a game where doing so is required?
I'm ignoring the gamestate? Really? Are you going to in any way back that statement up?
I don't understand the things I'm talking about? Want to comment on that? What don't I understand? If I don't understand it how does that even make me scum?

[Mirhawk]

Can I get some votes on DJ?

You guys can't honestly think he's town.

Same thing with Toomai.

[Mirhawk]

That's bullshit and you know it.

We have just over two days left, it would be irresponsible to move my vote to a new wagon at this juncture unless I knew other people were willing to support it. Especially seeing as how I JUST SAID I would be V/LA over the deadline.

The wagon on reinoe sucks. TSO and Izy are voting reinoe for shitty reasons and the other two players on the wagon are scum.

Me cycling through everyone but reinoe is a flat out lie.
I've pushed you, Bob, and Toomai.
I publicly admitted that MVP was a convenience lynch, I never even voted him.

[Mirhawk]

I have about six hours before I'll be V/LA.

If we get a few more votes on DJ in that time I'll switch over from Toomai.

[Mirhawk]

What about DJ?

[Mirhawk]

oh I see how it is. When Iz suggested that I was scummy for townreading his scumreads it was a good argument. But when I mock him (and show him how ridiculous) said argument is its a bad argument? I really hate you and Ceph buddying up to IZ like that.

What are you talking about? What does this even have to do with Izy? Are we talking about the same thing?

You could prob push the "there's scum motivation in what you are doing" on anyone. Its also not "establishing" motive 'cause you wouldn't know anyone's motives till they flip.

This is terrible. By this reasoning there's really no point in scumhunting at all, without looking for motive behind what players are doing we may as well be randomly lynching people.

Lets see. I was clearly fussing at Ki-Gi for not really backing up his statement that I was being "weird" and then you cherry pick and try to show that I'm fussing at Ki-Gi for not suspecting AP. And taking my response to Iz and trying to make it look like I was talking about you while simultaneously calling it shit reasoning but whiteknighting Iz.

Do you even understand why I think you're scum?

You were lurking, when people started talking about you you immediately showed up. You were called on this by more then one player,

you then completely ignored this for pages

. Then when you did acknowledge it, you tried to pretend that it wasn't scummy because scum wouldn't do it.

Sure there's a bunch of stuff since then, but that's just icing on the cake. This is where I started scumreading you.

but my other head thinks we should claim so w/e

town vig.

~

Yeah fine whatever. This is extremely verifiable so I'm not going to push this further. I will however require a night in which you made a kill and a night in which you didn't make a kill to believe this claim in the long run. I suppose mafia vig is possible, but unlikely.

[Mirhawk]

I'm going to stay on Toomai, it's the wagon I like best. It's also the wagon most likely to actually need my vote.

Bob's wagon isn't that bad. His attempt to run Ki-gi up for a lurker lynch with two days remaining was awful.

The people on reinoes wagon should get off it and decide between Toomai and Bob.

[Mirhawk]

You know DJ, it's a good thing I'm not Titus.

She totally would have kept pushing for you lynch.

She's crazy, I've seen her do it.

[Mirhawk]

This would never pass any sort of review whatsoever

I'll have to take your word for it. I've heard of mafia vigs, but I've never seen one.

@Bob
That's weak, why wait so late to bring this up?

[Mirhawk]

You sure? Because that's how I remember it.

Anyways I'm out guys. I'll post again before the deadline if I have the opportunity.

[Mirhawk]

I'm back. Sorta. I'll have time to catch up tonight.

[Mirhawk]

What possible reason could scum have for stopping his kill as well as killing him?

There's lots of reasons. So many in fact that we might as well save speculating on this point until we have some idea of the other PR's (scum and town) in the game.

I'm going to be rereading some bits before I form any more opinions, so that's all for tonight.

[Mirhawk]

I mostly like this post.

I agree. I still don't like Toomai, but this is objectively the best post he's made all game.

The biggest reservation I have about TSO is that throwing a bitchfit is basically the thing I was looking for, because it pretty much happened in FEA.

I don't know if this is alignment indicative. I've seen TSO do similar things as town.

----

Someone (AP?) mentioned that there was probably a mafia doctor. Probably not the case. That combined with the vig and the even modifier would make MVP functionally useless. Unless MVP was scum, but if that was the case there wouldn't be any reason to suspect a mafia doctor.

Very much don't like Izy's 1529, it smells faintly of chainsaws. I do however like 1651 as it contains analysis of possible counterwagons, which I keep intending to go back and take a look at.

I was pretty ambivalent with regards to Aeronaught, Ika seems way more town then his predecessor though.

[Mirhawk]

Let it be. They can't keep it secret indefinitely, and the idea that everyone in the town should be privy to every bit of information is stupid.

Izy, why do you feel you should have this information? Your reaction looks like you're worried about what the information is.

[Mirhawk]

I was pretty ambivalent with regards to Aeronaught, Ika seems way more town then his predecessor though.

This is apparently completely backwards. As Ika was ki-gi before.

Was it really though? We never did get a claim out of him as we did with MVP at L-1. The posts he made when his wagon was at L-3 were more of the same useless spam, and 4 votes (Bob, Toomai, DJ, Bob) so I don't think he was acting in a manner that suggests he was really feeling any pressure.

I'm not sure why this is relevant. Putting pressure on players simply for the sake of garnering claims is bad play. I usually find it more curious when players claim before they're at L-1, so I'm not sure why it's suspicious that he didn't claim at L-3.

I see.
Well honestly I'm planning to get myself autolynched Day 3 regardless of my reports if my claim is still suspicious until then. My usefulness as a claimed even-night gunsmith is complete after tonight anyway.
That's part of the reason I posted that readlist out of the blue.

This post is incredibly shitty. If you're town then this is basically advocating what you would have to know would be a mislynch on a PR. I still don't think you should be lynched today, but this totally reads as a sleazy bid for towncred.

Twie
do you think its odd that m irhawk said he'd be watching bob yet vote parked toomie the rest of the day?

Shouldn't you be questioning me as to why I did this instead of hunting around to see if anyone else will bite?

[Mirhawk]

Looking back at the votecounts from that timeframe, I think it

strongly suggests

that reinoe was pushing various wagons to try and counter his own and/or push for mislynch, which could be indicative of feeling pressure, and more likely of being scum. Look at reinoe's votes in Toomai's 1434. Post 1080 is where goodmorning posted the votecount with the reinoe wagon in the lead at L-3. Between then and the time that his wagon was completely disbanded, he joined 3 other wagons, each with active momentum.

This is a legitimate concern. If reinoe was hopping any wagon to try and get heat off him that's actually scummy. I don't find the rest of your case on reinoe very compelling, but this is a good point.

1533, 1723, 1735
It's about mirhawk, who showed up in 1739

The only time I haven't posted every day was when I was V/LA. I'm not as prolific as many of the other players, but I am here.
I'm pretty sure to be beetlejuiceing I would have had to be lurking in the first place.

This post is incredibly shitty.
Thats not a bid for towncred, thats him being realistic.

Wrong, it's antitown play and he's looking for town players to try and talk him down from that position.
He's talking about selfvoting, there is no way a town PR should even consider not going down swinging.

Maybe you should ask people who arent currently scumreading Mirhawk how they felt about it instead?

This is precisely the problem I had with it.

[Mirhawk]

But you were online. And as proof you responded to another post just before the last one.

This is addressed to me right?

I'm not entirely sure what you're saying, could you clarify it a little.

Proof of what, why is the other post important.

[Mirhawk]

And which other post.

[Mirhawk]

hrm

[Mirhawk]

I really disliked TSOs entire interaction with it.

Dunno TSO's interaction felt genuineish. Which is to say he never stopped pressuring for a reinoe lynch all day.

Most of the other people on the wagon had way less reason to be on it then him.

[Mirhawk]

It was a shitty personal vendetta case that really shouldn't have gone through, I have no idea how anyone thought it was a good idea. TSO had a personal problem with reinoe and pushed it till he was lynched, the back patting was unnecessary, especially seeing as how he didn't seem to think reinoe was any more likely to be scum then not.

I have more problems with Izy then anyone else. His day one play was good up until around three quarters the way through the day, then he sort of dissolved into a bunch of terrible pushes. His day two is just as bad.

@Cabd
I'm assuming you're revealing your PR for some sort of advantage, do you have a result that can help us?

[Mirhawk]

And yours isn't?

[Mirhawk]

Do you feel everyone on reinoe's wagon had a good reason to be there?

Do you think Izy's play yesterday was super town?

Do you think TSO wasn't being a petulant jackass spending tow days pushing a policy lynch?

What precisely do you have a problem with?

[Mirhawk]

Right because policy lynches are super town.

So to sum it up you think TSO is scum and Izy is town?

And because I disagree with that my opening is shit?

[Mirhawk]

Reinoe was more useful then MVP, DJ, cephrir, TSO, and Toomai.

What made reinoe's selfvote any worse then TSO's?

[Mirhawk]

Wait nevermind.

You were one of the first votes on reinoe. You obviously meant that as an example, not the actual reason for your vote.

[Mirhawk]

Excuse you.

Well, this is irritating.

To be fair not every one on that list is at the same level.

I mean calling you as unhelpful as MVP or Toomai is obviously not true.

But still, yeah.

[Mirhawk]

Oh goodness no, I suck.

What I'm trying to say is I felt that reinoe had a number of on topic and/or astute observations over the course of the game. You had to sift chaff to find them, but they were there.

The people on that list are more a reflection of how useful I've found them to my scumhunting personally. Mileage on this will vary from person to person.

[Mirhawk]

TSO's pretty town.

[Mirhawk]

Oddly enough that doesn't effect my perception of him.

[Mirhawk]

You're designing a large game. For town's investigative power, you place in a even night gunsmith.

You also place in a town vig (town role that shows as having a gun)

Do you then give scum a doctor (scum role that shows as not having a gun?)

Dude yeah we get it. The fact that MVP was even nights only only makes it worse.

Yesterday you were going on about some big thing you were going to test overnight.

What was that about, where did it go?

---

Of course Toomai's scum. I've been saying it since the game started.

Do you really think Toomai's such a bad player that he's been unable to generate anything more then three extremely mediocre reads lists in eighty pages?

---

How likely do you think it is that DJ targeted anyone other then reinoe?

Me and Cephrir were on the list, but I didn't seriously think there was any chance of being targeted.

[Mirhawk]

This is getting stupid. If you're looking for reasons to vote me or Ceph just do it. Don't drown us in a pointless setup spec argument.

God knows we've both been scummy enough that you don't need this to prop up a case against us.

[Mirhawk]

That's addressed to all of you in general.

[Mirhawk]

I'm now somewhat scumreading this slot because it's tunnelled Toomai the whole game for shitty reasons, I guess? I don't know, ask me when I'm less tired.

Toomai has been scummy the whole game.

At what point have you seen him looking for scum, because he's not. He's lurking the hell out, while all the people who I'm suspicious of keep downplaying how scummy this is.

[Mirhawk]

Personal promise. I keep telling myself I'm going to reread Cephrir and Izy before I vote.

I'm also a bit curious as to how long I could get away with it. I see it used as a scumtell all the time, but its not one I've ever taken seriously.

[Mirhawk]

Alright, but like, have you considered doing other things?

Sure have.

But since Toomai's scum those other things are less relevant to me.

[Mirhawk]

And if toomai isn't scum?

Because as convincing as you guys have been...

Then Izy. Maybe Cephrir as well, but my read on Cephrir is partially tied to Toomai. So if Toomai flipped town I might change my mind.

I'm in a shitty spot. I want to lynch TSO, but I don't think anyone will spring for it.

Nah, I kind of think TSO's town.

@Cephrir
Why are none of the posts you looked at for Toomai more recent then fifteen hundred posts ago?

@Toomai
While I admit to being jealous of your well ordered graph, I'm not sure as to how useful that is for scumhunting. It completely omits context.
Also since we don't know what triggered the changes that occur in the chart it's pretty useless to us as well.

[Mirhawk]

Any on else have the feeling that i zy is scum?

I do.

MVP's claim hinged on producing Night 2 results. I feel like the doctor may have protected MVP Night 2 to give them the opportunity to produce those results since MVP was the only claimed PR. Not protecting an investigative roleclaim during their only night to produce results seems like a bad play. If he couldn't produce results when protected, then lynch him day 3.

But if Cabd's crumbing about having information to reveal on day 3 drew away the doctor's protection to Cabd last night, that left MVP open for the kill. Not being the doctor, I can't confirm the doctor's actions here but I think it's a distinct possibility that Cabd drew away the protection from MVP, which got MVP killed, intentionally or otherwise.

I don't want or need a doctor's claim here btw.

Why are you using occams razor to argue in favor MVP's target while simotaniously forwarding the most convoluted motive possible on Cabd.
Seeing as how scum probably have whatever PR stopped DJ's kill, town almost certainly has another PR. Is there some reason it can't be Cabd?

Remind me about the Mirhawk case. If it is in your ISO, just say so and I will check it out.

it's probably a bad sign when I can't even remember you pushing the Mirhawk wagon.

There was never a case per say, there was a bit of justification at some point. But I don't think a case was ever made. TWIE added me to his scumlist at some point during day one.

MVP kill is essentially scum telling us they dont have a roleblocker.

If they dont have a roleblocker and Mirhawk was the person that both heads of our vig agreed on Mirhawk should really be quite dead right now.

I'm interested to know why he isnt.

The only other option is that they shot Ceph, or that our mythical clearly not mafia doc saved one of (town) Mirhawk, Ceph, or Reinoe. (this is not likely)

And since I'm scumreading Mirhawk and not Ceph, I think we should lynch Mirhawk.

I didn't realize both heads wanted me dead, I thought it was just Titus.
Also if this is the logic you're lynching on I want you to lynch Cephrir tomorrow.

I don't think there's a town doc. Objectively the best play day one would have been to protect DJ, she was the scum target for a reason.

---

Anyways the days more then half over, I should get off the fence.

Vote: Toomai

The rest of you should probably start getting your vote on as well.

[Mirhawk]

Eh, I'm only willing to lynch Toomai, Cephrir, or Izy at the moment.

I just picked the one I judged the most likely to have the support for a lynch.

Also, I'm pretty sure the fact you brought it up means you don't like it.

[Mirhawk]

I know, right?

I get that exact face sometimes when I read his posts.

[Mirhawk]

The rest of you should probably start getting your vote on as well.

[Mirhawk]

we can wrangle over the details of who's getting lynched still. But we need to get some votes going first.

[Mirhawk]

Okay now this I don't like. I can't put my finger on it but there's something off about saying "let's put votes down, then pick who to lynch". It's not strictly necessary to have votes to know who people want to lynch.

No.

This game is settling into inactivity and apathy.

Unless people start posting and voting we won't have anything to talk about and will at best end up with a deadline lynch.

It'll probably be you which is sweet, but that doesn't make it a not-shitty way to play.

[Mirhawk]

Cephrir shouldn't you be putting more effort into bussing your teammate? At this rate nobody's going to believe its legit.

[Mirhawk]

Unfortunately, much as I might wish to the contrary, I don't have any teammates to bus.

How do you reach the keyboard from your fence?

[Mirhawk]

Long arms?

[Mirhawk]

No way.

If you lynch me you're not lynching Cabd after.

[Mirhawk]

why

Isn't Cabd softclaiming a PR though?

Cephrir, Izy and Toomai. That's the money.

[Mirhawk]

I have only vague ideas myself.

It's actually kind of exciting.

[Mirhawk]

Doesn't your graph have me listed as the second townest player?

[Mirhawk]

No, though I'm not surprised you're mistaking the colours (it's a pain to find enough colours that are distinct from each other). In the graph I posted you're actually invisible behind TWIE (I have no way to fix overlap), at +2% and so tied for third-least-town.

Didn't notice that.

I feel that AP, T S O and Ceph are town.

What precisely has Ceph ever done to earn a townread?

[Mirhawk]

Null, at absolute best.

[Mirhawk]

Townreads are not earned.

They simply are.

Sorry but no.

I believe in cause and effect.

He can't have a townread without having a reason for it.

[Mirhawk]

If you have a problem with scrambles scumread on you why don't you take it up with him? I'm not sure why you think I should be questioning scumreads that you don't like.

If you feel Cephrir is town for making lots of protown posts I'm going to have to disagree. He's made enough crappy noncommittal posts to easily balance out any towncred he's managed to accumulate.

I don't really care about you're reads on TSO and AP, you read on Cephrir is the only one that interests me.

[Mirhawk]

I was making a point. You were disgruntled that I posted townreads with no reasons attached, and yet never batted an eye when scrambles scumread me without a reason. It's a double-standard.

Disgruntled? I asked you a question about a townread because I didn't understand how you could have it.

Scrambles has a reason to scumread you. The core of my arguement is that its impossible to have a read without a reason.

I didn't ask for Scrambles reason because at this juncture his reason is unimportant to me.

You're free to think of that as a double standard if you want. I'd love to hear you explain why having double standards makes someone scum.

I'm not sure why you think I should be questioning townreads that you don't like.

Your sass would work better if that was actually a thing I asked you to do.

[Mirhawk]

Pointing out a double standard != scumread. Both of you are putting words in my mouth by saying I'm using this as a scumtell. I'm not.

Just because I'm voting for Mirhawk doesn't mean that everything I say to him is a scumread...

Scrambles has a reason to scumread you. The core of my arguement is that its impossible to have a read without a reason.

I don't understand how you can be saying my townread has no reason

when I've posted my reasons before

, and yet say that scrambles has a reason to scumread me when

he's never posted a reason

. You literally can't argue both points.

Also, why is scrambles' reason unimportant to you? Is it just because he agrees with you that I'm scum? I find it unsettling that his first mention of the possibility that I'm scum came right after you made mention of it. I don't care if he's scumreading me, but the way he's gone about doing it is questionable to me. The fact that you don't care about his reason or method of doing so is curious to me given your stance on my townread.

At this point, it's Scum-Izzy wondering why town-Mirhawk is choosing to ignore town-scrambles, so I doubt anything I say here will have much impact on your interaction with him.

If you're not using it as a scumread why did you bring it up? The phrase double standard has negative connotations associated with it. So if its not a part of your case why mention it. Aside from trying to make me look worse that is.

I acknowledged your reason, are you saying that reason isn't the actual reason for your read? Or are you just cherry picking my responses. Also how could I possibly be accusing you of having no reasons. I've repeatedly stated that its impossible to not have reasons.

I'm not sure why you expect scrambles reasons to be so important to me. I'm pretty obviously not grilling every player in the game for reasons behind their reads.

I'm kind of perturbed that you keep trying to drag this into an argument over scrambles. If you have a scumread on him how about you pursue it directly instead of trying to make me argue in his defense.

[Mirhawk]

I think someone just wants to mislynch me tomorrow.

That would be me.

[Mirhawk]

but a more serious note: why is mharwk town? ceph gave a very vaild point on him

Where?

[Mirhawk]

Your reads blow.

His reads are fine.

[Mirhawk]

That's interesting. I'm mildly ashamed a PR had to out himself to protect me.

@Cabd
I don't see any problems with that plan. The only thing that worries me is the thought that five PR's is too many in fifteen players. I'm not very versed in balancing, so I don't get what would be required to balance that many PR's out.

When can we expect any sort of feedback from you or Aegor on what you're up to? I'm not entirely comfortable that this has drug out for more than one day.

[Mirhawk]

My guess is godfather, bulletproof, goon, {goon or traitor}

If that's the setup then the bulletproof would have to be Cephrir.

Who is strategically the best lynch out of that group?
Originally I just thought toomai was the easiest (so that I didnt have to claim) but now that everything is out in the open, are there better choices?

Cephrir might be a better choice. The fact that he's the only person on DJ's kill list who's unconfirmed makes it almost certain he's scum.

[Mirhawk]

Unless you or Aegor stopped the kill.

I think there's almost zero chance of DJ not shooting.

[Mirhawk]

i still want to wagon mhawk now after seeing his iso,it doesnt match the mindset of pr imo

Who are you talking about? I never claimed a PR.

[Mirhawk]

We are rapidly approaching LyLo... as early as tomorrow with 4 scum... how long are we giving semi-/soft-/hard-claimed PRs a free skate-through?

if he's not investigative, how did night 2 clear AP? I asked about this before, but he never bothered to reply, so maybe one of you guys can answer it for me.

The above posts are things that needed to be said. I at least partially agree with both of them.

I have no idea what's going on with Cabd's claim, or how it can clear players without being an investigative role. There appears to be some discussion about it, but its all in fucking code, so I have no idea what its about.

Unvote

[Mirhawk]

Is anyone actually suggesting an alternative to Toomai? Because if they are I'm either not seeing it, or they're doing a shitty job of pushing it.

We're not lynching a PR, any of them. If there was a legitimate enough reason to vote for any of them, it would already been pointed out. This shits just going to have to wait until tomorrow, that's all there is to it.

We're lynching someone off Cabd's list. Even if some of the people off the list are scum there still have to be scum on the list anyways.

I'm thinking Toomai or Cephrir. Are there any

good

reasons why someone else would make a better choice?

[Mirhawk]

That's pretty much all the time there is to wait on that. Nobody seems to have a better suggestion (except Toomai I suppose).

Vote: Toomai

I believe this puts him at L-1.

[Mirhawk]

Shit that was my fault, I'm the tunnel monster.

Also, I'm thinking we need full disclosure at this point.

My thoughts on Cabd's alignment depend on what AP has to say.

[Mirhawk]

On a weird note, something just occurred to me that makes MVP's claim slightly more legit. Not going to explain.

N

othing too much else to add right now.

U

nderstandably people don't want to lynch MVP today, and I personally sort of want to see more of the setup to get a better sense of whether or not their role is in the game.

R

eally think Bob is the best lynch Today, DJ is town and Reinoe is meh.

S

till, deadline is basically almost here so if we could lynch someone ASAP that'd be fantastic (yes Cabd Im fully aware you are not voting anyone and that is even worse than a vanity wagon).

E

veryone needs to start consolidating votes (preferably on Bob).

This was somewhat of a pain to find. The first post also somewhat refers to his claim as well. The first one actually makes me think his claim is more legitimate then the second one.

Is alignment switching normal? If a mafia doc dies is it possible for a town player to switch sides as a backup? It seems to me that this could lead to some lylo shenanigans where it's impossible for town to win.

Reading AP's iso made me remember why I thought he was town. It also made me kind of care more again, I'm going to do more of them.

[Mirhawk]

Cabd, if you're a bodyguard why did you think AP's nurse crumb was legit?

Also who did you protect each day?

[Mirhawk]

The thing that's inconsistent is why are all of our PR's dead.

[Mirhawk]

I didn't realize both heads wanted me dead, I thought it was just Titus.
Also if this is the logic you're lynching on I want you to lynch Cephrir tomorrow.

Is there a reason you stopped pushing this today?

No way.

If you lynch me you're not lynching Cabd after.

Can we talk about this too?

I thought Toomai was scum. I'm obviously misreading the situation, so I'm not commiting to my prior scumread. We have lots of time to examine the situation so I see no need to rush.

My desire to not lynch Cabd was mostly based on the fact that he wasn't Cephrir.

I don't really have anything to add, I'm just waiting to see what Cabd says.

[Mirhawk]

Attitude mostly.

You never committed to very many reads. But made lots of sideline comments (especially near the beginning of the game).

You often make fairly flippant posts, between your scumhunting posts. Which can sometimes be rather far apart.

It was mostly the way you were acting, not the actual things you said.

Oh and you kept claiming you weren't scum.

Which is exactly what scum would say!

[Mirhawk]

@Cabd
Why did you think AP was a backup in the first place.

What was the "deal" with your code-talk with AP? How did it make you think you would be able to tell if MVP was scum the next day?

[Mirhawk]

I'm just following along at the minute. I'll have time to look stuff up this weekend.

@Cabd
S'cool, but when you get back can you answer those questions?

[Mirhawk]

I'm a Vanilla Townie.

I'm waiting on Cabd to reappear, but as that seems like it might not happen right away I guess I'll look at something else while I wait.
I typically don't do reads lists, but I think we're in lylo and we have a 50/50 split on scum and town. This list is done pre-reread.

ika- Zero effort. I honestly don't know how to read him.

Cephrir- Fence sitty and uninformative. I thought he was scum yesterday and still kind of do. I've never gotten the impression he's actually looking for scum.

Izariael- He said some things day two that set off some alarm bells for me. The only one I can remember off the top of my head is how he started off the day by going hard on reinoe, at the time I suspected a chainsaw in TSO's defense.

Aegor- Extremely unengaged. Is not looking for scum and seems to have no intention of doing so. Previous experience with him makes me think the low activity is just how he posts, but the low content is not. Far more passive then any game I've played with him.

Cabd- Misgivings on how he's picked his choices for protection targets. Some of the claims he's made (knowledge about mvp's alignment) don't make sense as far as I can see. I have a whole stack of questions that I can't ask since he's not here.

T S O- Early game was terrible, the only thing I can remember about it was the argument with reinoe. Makes some good points when he's not being a drama queen. I think he's townish.

TheWayItEnds- Early townread. I don't really have much to say about him other then that. I need to reread him, since I suspect my initial townread colored my opinion of everything he said since then.

AngryPidgeon- Pretty sure he's town. This has stayed pretty constant all game, he makes town posts all the time and I believe his claim. Only problem with him is in relation to Cabd. Want an explanation of what he though Cabd was talking about when they had their cryptic exchange, but I don't want it till Cabd has done so first.

[Mirhawk]

I don't see why not.

What's your beef?

[Mirhawk]

Posts like 1605.

I'm giving him a quick reread, and I'm seeing a lot more chaff then I remember being there. I read that post as an appeal to logical process, which has always struck me as a more town mindset.

[Mirhawk]

I read it as him asking Scrambles to back up his claim with reasons for why it would have been scummy.

I read it as a good question, but that's probably because I usually feel motive is important.

[Mirhawk]

I should clarify, I don't think thought process equates to an actual step by step on what Scrambles was thinking, as that would be silly and useless. But rather a description for why he thought Cabd's post was more likely from scum then from town.

[Mirhawk]

Also, who did you protect?

[Mirhawk]

You're odd night? I didn't realize that.

What made you think AP was crumbing backup? The only early game thing I know of is the Doctor who reference, and that's pretty clearly in relation to looking for a doctor.

[Mirhawk]

Why did you need a night to tell if MVP was going to be scum?