Mini #704: Hunchback of Notre Dame, Game Over
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Mizzy Furry
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Vote: Caboosefor being my favorite character in RvsB ever. It's a love vote. <3PokerFace: "I need to play with [Ether] or Mizzy more often."
Nightson: "I'd be more then happy to play with Ether and Mizzy. At the same time."
Muerrto: "Mizzy is my hero and I wanna be like her when I grow younger <3"-
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Mizzy Furry
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Ramus wrote:
Is subjective.Machiavellian-Mafia wrote:...and your answer to the first question is?Unvote. Vote: Ramus.
That was not an answer that, in my opinion, is pro-town. Subjective, or not, it was a valid and useful question that deserved a valid and useful answer, which it did not receive. While I don't think self-voting is a scumtell or scummy at all, I do feel that being intentionally vague IS scummy.PokerFace: "I need to play with [Ether] or Mizzy more often."
Nightson: "I'd be more then happy to play with Ether and Mizzy. At the same time."
Muerrto: "Mizzy is my hero and I wanna be like her when I grow younger <3"-
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Mizzy Furry
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Oh, and by the way, I took the original question to be "Why did you self-vote?" The answer to that is not "It's subjective." I want an answer to why he decided to self-vote.PokerFace: "I need to play with [Ether] or Mizzy more often."
Nightson: "I'd be more then happy to play with Ether and Mizzy. At the same time."
Muerrto: "Mizzy is my hero and I wanna be like her when I grow younger <3"-
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Mizzy Furry
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So why, exactly, couldn't you have just answered that in the first place? Why did you have to be purposely vague and unhelpful?Ramus wrote:
Because I felt like doing it.Mizzy wrote:Oh, and by the way, I took the original question to be "Why did you self-vote?" The answer to that is not "It's subjective." I want an answer to why he decided to self-vote.PokerFace: "I need to play with [Ether] or Mizzy more often."
Nightson: "I'd be more then happy to play with Ether and Mizzy. At the same time."
Muerrto: "Mizzy is my hero and I wanna be like her when I grow younger <3"-
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Mizzy Furry
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Self-voting in the early stage is definitely not indicative of scum, but allow me to toss out my thoughts on the subject. This is going to serve two purposes, the first being to encourage discussion and the second being to share advice.
Self-voting in the random voting stage is not indicative of role or alignment, however, self-voting in the random stage is also lazy on the part of the voter and also tends to hurt the town later (in my opinion.)
The point of random voting is to give the town links and past connections/trends to look at later when the game is farther along, and also to begin discussion rolling. Now, granted, his self-vote did begin discussion, but I don't feel his vote was cast with that thought in mind, meaning that the discussion that was brought on by it was an unintentional side-effect. The first point of random voting, though, he has completely bypassed by self-voting. We have no connection we can draw on this later, nothing we can glean from it because it is a null-tell. So, whether he meant to or not, his small act (while not scummy in and of itself) has possibly helped scum.
His subsequent lack-of-answer and the dodging of questions was more telling than the self-vote, though, so I am glad he did what he did.
Now, keep in mind that this is opinion of mine, but I am going to keep my vote where I am for two reasons. 1) Because I feel that his question-dodging was scummy and 2) I feel that some pressure here might give us far more information than we could get from his random-vote alone.PokerFace: "I need to play with [Ether] or Mizzy more often."
Nightson: "I'd be more then happy to play with Ether and Mizzy. At the same time."
Muerrto: "Mizzy is my hero and I wanna be like her when I grow younger <3"-
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Mizzy Furry
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Also, I am still waiting for an answer to this. Stop dodging and start playing, kthx.Mizzy wrote:So why, exactly, couldn't you have just answered that in the first place? Why did you have to be purposely vague and unhelpful?PokerFace: "I need to play with [Ether] or Mizzy more often."
Nightson: "I'd be more then happy to play with Ether and Mizzy. At the same time."
Muerrto: "Mizzy is my hero and I wanna be like her when I grow younger <3"-
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Mizzy Furry
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Battousai: One should always pretend, in MS, that a question asked is not rhetorical if one wants to live long enough to see night one.PokerFace: "I need to play with [Ether] or Mizzy more often."
Nightson: "I'd be more then happy to play with Ether and Mizzy. At the same time."
Muerrto: "Mizzy is my hero and I wanna be like her when I grow younger <3"-
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Mizzy Furry
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Ramus, would you please be so kind as to look under my icon (which is a flamboyantly pink obviously-female furry kitty) and look what sex I am before you post pronouns regarding my gender? Thanks.PokerFace: "I need to play with [Ether] or Mizzy more often."
Nightson: "I'd be more then happy to play with Ether and Mizzy. At the same time."
Muerrto: "Mizzy is my hero and I wanna be like her when I grow younger <3"-
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Mizzy Furry
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Ramus: What does colorblindness have to do with telling the difference between the female symbol and the male?PokerFace: "I need to play with [Ether] or Mizzy more often."
Nightson: "I'd be more then happy to play with Ether and Mizzy. At the same time."
Muerrto: "Mizzy is my hero and I wanna be like her when I grow younger <3"-
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Mizzy Furry
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Alright, so far I don't see the wagon on Clock, and Ramus' self-important, "Whateva, ah do whu' ah want!" attitude is enough for me to keep my vote on him for the time being. Teamwork is crucial. It also bothers me that he didn't read my post well enough...he asked me to explain something I already had.PokerFace: "I need to play with [Ether] or Mizzy more often."
Nightson: "I'd be more then happy to play with Ether and Mizzy. At the same time."
Muerrto: "Mizzy is my hero and I wanna be like her when I grow younger <3"-
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Mizzy Furry
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Ramus: Actually, I'm keeping my vote on you for your lack of answering questions, dodging questions, and a slew of other things, not just your anti-town attitude.PokerFace: "I need to play with [Ether] or Mizzy more often."
Nightson: "I'd be more then happy to play with Ether and Mizzy. At the same time."
Muerrto: "Mizzy is my hero and I wanna be like her when I grow younger <3"-
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Mizzy Furry
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There is also a difference between thinking someone is scummy and thinking someone isCaboose wrote:
There might be some people out there (ClockworkRuse for example) that might deserve my vote more than you. I'm still trying to determine that.Ramus wrote:
For one, you call my play a bad one, yet you haven't made any real play yourself. Secondly, you call sum while you're at it. VOTE FOR ME IF YOU'RE GOING TO CALL ME SCUMMY.Caboose wrote:
What was whiny about what I said?Ramus wrote:
Vote for me if you think I'm scummy. The one think I loathe is whiny players who don't do anything.Of all the gambits that I know of, the one I HATE, no, LOATH the most is Fong's gambit. It's not catching anyone. It's just bad play. And it also gives a good excuse for scum who do something scummy early on.scum.PokerFace: "I need to play with [Ether] or Mizzy more often."
Nightson: "I'd be more then happy to play with Ether and Mizzy. At the same time."
Muerrto: "Mizzy is my hero and I wanna be like her when I grow younger <3"-
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Mizzy Furry
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urielzyx:Please stay away from WIFOM whenever possible; you're not making a whole lot of sense (to me at least) and you are muddying the waters with circular logic. If you think you have a valid point against someone, express it without WIFOM so I (and others) might consider it.PokerFace: "I need to play with [Ether] or Mizzy more often."
Nightson: "I'd be more then happy to play with Ether and Mizzy. At the same time."
Muerrto: "Mizzy is my hero and I wanna be like her when I grow younger <3"-
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Mizzy Furry
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I actually agree with a little of Clockwork and a little of ortolan. I feel that while self-voting is a null-tell, we should all still be held accountable for our actions and responses. However, I also feel that defending other players from things that they can defend against themselves should be avoided because it does allow them an easy out.PokerFace: "I need to play with [Ether] or Mizzy more often."
Nightson: "I'd be more then happy to play with Ether and Mizzy. At the same time."
Muerrto: "Mizzy is my hero and I wanna be like her when I grow younger <3"-
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Mizzy Furry
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^Copout.ThAdmiral wrote:@ battousai: I'd say something in response to that, but that would be defending...PokerFace: "I need to play with [Ether] or Mizzy more often."
Nightson: "I'd be more then happy to play with Ether and Mizzy. At the same time."
Muerrto: "Mizzy is my hero and I wanna be like her when I grow younger <3"-
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Mizzy Furry
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Quote wall-o-texts annoy me and aren't the best for reading through. Please try and make your points without them.PokerFace: "I need to play with [Ether] or Mizzy more often."
Nightson: "I'd be more then happy to play with Ether and Mizzy. At the same time."
Muerrto: "Mizzy is my hero and I wanna be like her when I grow younger <3"-
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Mizzy Furry
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Because a) it's for him being emotional, unhelpful, and scummy, not just for being snide, and b) no, he never fully answered everything and when he did answer at all it was because of pressure to answer, and c) there's no better place for it in my mind at the moment.destructor wrote:Mizzy, I don't think your vote on Ramus is doing much. Last I remember, it's on him more for being snide than anything scummy he's done. Your first gripe with him, and it was a good one, was that he was being evasive. He's since answered for his early play so far as I can tell. So, why is your vote still on him?PokerFace: "I need to play with [Ether] or Mizzy more often."
Nightson: "I'd be more then happy to play with Ether and Mizzy. At the same time."
Muerrto: "Mizzy is my hero and I wanna be like her when I grow younger <3"-
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Mizzy Furry
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destructor:How is not voting at all productive? I am reading everything that gets posted very carefully and I have no questions to ask anyone at the moment. So it's either vote Ramus for the time being or no one, and having my vote somewhere is better than no where.
I am also working a whole lot of over time right now due to an upcoming release so please be patient; my participation level will rise after things calm down at work. Yes, I am at work right nowPokerFace: "I need to play with [Ether] or Mizzy more often."
Nightson: "I'd be more then happy to play with Ether and Mizzy. At the same time."
Muerrto: "Mizzy is my hero and I wanna be like her when I grow younger <3"-
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Mizzy Furry
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Actually, I don't agree fully with this sentiment; I feel that an OMGUS vote is scummy because it is an easy vote to make that doesn't take thought, doesn't utilize logic or a case, and in general, is anti-town. Anti-town != scum, but it does = scumortolan wrote:EVEN APART FROM THIS, there is nothing inherently scummy about an OMGUS vote ANYWAY, so this argument has absolutely no substance.my.
I also don't like that ort does, indeed, seem to have been waiting around for others to make his cases for him.
Also waiting for an answer to #155.PokerFace: "I need to play with [Ether] or Mizzy more often."
Nightson: "I'd be more then happy to play with Ether and Mizzy. At the same time."
Muerrto: "Mizzy is my hero and I wanna be like her when I grow younger <3"-
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Mizzy Furry
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True, and I wasn't speaking about endgame at all where cross-voting is going to happen and it's normal there.ThAdmiral wrote:@ mizzy: completely agree with your point about omgus. No, wait, mostly agree, because there are times when one will vote the person that is voting them and this will be reasonable play. I also think it is slightly overrated as a scum tell.
No, I am implying that he is lazy. As you point out, he hasn't really been opportunistic.CarnCarn wrote:What exactly is this based off of? You are implying that he is being opportunistic.
If this is true, I don't see any reason why he would defend Ramus self-voting (unless maybe if they are scum together, and even then that is not a given) instead of just piling on to that wagon.
Well, I haven't done debating so your explanation is lost on me. And even though you say your vote was not OMGUS, and it may not have been, we have no way to know that and cannot take your word for it, either. We have to look at how events play out and make our verdicts from that. Simply denying doing or saying something does not change history.ortolan wrote:Strong FoS: Mizzy for this post. To your first point: if you've done debating you'll know about the technique of "even if"- "even if so and so a point of yours is right, then...". Me saying "even apart from this" was an example of this. I firstly denied that my vote on ClockworkRuse amounted to an OMGUS. I then said even if it was, it's not a scumtell. You suggested that OMGUS may in fact be a scumtell, but did not address the fact that I intentionally denied my vote amounted to an OMGUS in the first place. This is not my reason for voting you however- it is your second claim, that I was "waiting around for others to make cases for me". This is just a parrot of the point ClockworkRuse already made and ignores the fact I already thoroughly refuted that this was the case (see my posts 70 and onwards). Either you haven't been reading and took ClockworkRuse's word for gospel or you had been reading and deliberately ignored the fact this point was blatantly untrue. Neither is forgivable at this point in the game.
And no, I have been reading, and simply agreed with his point against you. Again, just because you feel like damning me for agreeing with something, doesn't make the thing I agreed with wrong or scummy. It's my opinion, one that happens to be shared. I felt like that before he said it, too.
And what do you mean, at this point in the game? You mean, day 1, barely away from the start of the game? Because it is, and if anything, day 1 is the most forgiving.
And where's the answer to 155?PokerFace: "I need to play with [Ether] or Mizzy more often."
Nightson: "I'd be more then happy to play with Ether and Mizzy. At the same time."
Muerrto: "Mizzy is my hero and I wanna be like her when I grow younger <3"-
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Mizzy Furry
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I am beginning to think my vote should be elsewhere now.Unvotefor the moment while I wait to see responses.PokerFace: "I need to play with [Ether] or Mizzy more often."
Nightson: "I'd be more then happy to play with Ether and Mizzy. At the same time."
Muerrto: "Mizzy is my hero and I wanna be like her when I grow younger <3"-
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Mizzy Furry
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Because it was addressed to you, and we even reminded you several times after the fact that it was addressed to you.ortolan wrote:How was I to know that a question which seemingly has nothing to do with me was in fact addressed specifically to me?
No, I don't think it is, but I think your response to the whole thing is the most damning bit against you. Look how much you are over-reacting!ortolan wrote:@ Mizzy: are you aware your strongest argument against me at this point is that my vote against ClockworkRuse *may* have amounted to an OMGUS? I also don't like you "unvoting" in preparation for a new vote without having the guts to follow through.
And not having the guts to go through with it? Since when is waiting to see someone's responses being a wuss? It's what people SHOULD do before voting, is it not? Your Jedi mind tricks have no effect on me, I will wait until I feel the time is right to vote, give my case, and so be it.
If I knew, I would have said, but I don't have a clear enough read yet.ortolan wrote:Please be clear, are you suggesting I am "lazy town" or "lazy scum"?PokerFace: "I need to play with [Ether] or Mizzy more often."
Nightson: "I'd be more then happy to play with Ether and Mizzy. At the same time."
Muerrto: "Mizzy is my hero and I wanna be like her when I grow younger <3"-
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Mizzy Furry
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Considering that at least two of us had entire posts directed to you that included references to the question, it should have been obvious.ortolan wrote:Um, no it wasn't obviously addressed to me, otherwise I would have answered it previously. How the hell am I to know a post about Ramus' play is addressed to me?
Thank you for answering, though I think the point was to get your opinion on the matter and not accuse you of anything, but that just may be how I read it and I could be wrong.PokerFace: "I need to play with [Ether] or Mizzy more often."
Nightson: "I'd be more then happy to play with Ether and Mizzy. At the same time."
Muerrto: "Mizzy is my hero and I wanna be like her when I grow younger <3"-
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Mizzy Furry
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I don't really see any reason not to put your suspicions all in one post, ort, so are you just not doing it to be belligerent to CR or do you have a real reason to refuse?PokerFace: "I need to play with [Ether] or Mizzy more often."
Nightson: "I'd be more then happy to play with Ether and Mizzy. At the same time."
Muerrto: "Mizzy is my hero and I wanna be like her when I grow younger <3"-
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Mizzy Furry
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I just got home but there is a huge chance I won't be able to catch up until Monday. I will try for tomorrow but Monday is the more likely choice.PokerFace: "I need to play with [Ether] or Mizzy more often."
Nightson: "I'd be more then happy to play with Ether and Mizzy. At the same time."
Muerrto: "Mizzy is my hero and I wanna be like her when I grow younger <3"-
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Mizzy Furry
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Holy crap, there's a lot to catch up on. Caboose, I think my attention span died 3 weeks ago, but I can try.PokerFace: "I need to play with [Ether] or Mizzy more often."
Nightson: "I'd be more then happy to play with Ether and Mizzy. At the same time."
Muerrto: "Mizzy is my hero and I wanna be like her when I grow younger <3"-
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Mizzy Furry
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Chipping in with a quick comment: I think the idea of lynching anyone just to find out their alignment is completely horrible. If we have a lynch, it should be someone we think is scum. Period.PokerFace: "I need to play with [Ether] or Mizzy more often."
Nightson: "I'd be more then happy to play with Ether and Mizzy. At the same time."
Muerrto: "Mizzy is my hero and I wanna be like her when I grow younger <3"-
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Mizzy Furry
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One list by one person isn't telling the scum anything.CarnCarn wrote:The problem with that is that it makes deciding NKs for the scum a lot easier if they know who the town thinks is town and who the town is unsure of.
And let me get this straight...you don't want ROFL helping the scum inadvertently by telling everyone who he thinks is what, and yet you FoSed him? An FoS tells us you might suspect someone is scum. However, if he is scum, and he posted a list of those he thinks is innocent, there's no real harm done because the scum will find out anyway. So to me, you basically scolded someone as if they were a bad townie and then accused them of being scum. Which is it?PokerFace: "I need to play with [Ether] or Mizzy more often."
Nightson: "I'd be more then happy to play with Ether and Mizzy. At the same time."
Muerrto: "Mizzy is my hero and I wanna be like her when I grow younger <3"-
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Mizzy Furry
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Yes; the reason I hadn't yet was because it kind of made me mad that your case was so rotten and yet you voted without even waiting for me to respond to the first post. I figured I should wait a bit before I said something rude.Battousai wrote:Mizzy: You plan on answering any of the questions I asked you in 220?PokerFace: "I need to play with [Ether] or Mizzy more often."
Nightson: "I'd be more then happy to play with Ether and Mizzy. At the same time."
Muerrto: "Mizzy is my hero and I wanna be like her when I grow younger <3"-
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Mizzy Furry
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I didn't say that you said he was town, what I said what that your beef with what he did is only valid if you feel he's town, because otherwise, what do you care?CarnCarn wrote:I have no idea what he is and I never said he was town. Why are you pretending like I did? At best it's scum WIFOM and my point was that it could just make protown-killing scum's job easier.
MM made a good point about scum NKs not necessarily being that straightforward, though.PokerFace: "I need to play with [Ether] or Mizzy more often."
Nightson: "I'd be more then happy to play with Ether and Mizzy. At the same time."
Muerrto: "Mizzy is my hero and I wanna be like her when I grow younger <3"-
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Mizzy Furry
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I don't think he's scum, no, and I do think his wagon has a high amount of scum in it because he's intelligent and very perceptive; a dangerous pro-town player to have. I think people are voting him because they don't agree with him or because he's very vocal in a way they don't personally like and I don't think the "cases" on him are sound.destructor wrote:@ Mizzy, what were your reasons for staying away from the CR wagon? If you think CR is likely town, do you think scum are on his wagon? What are you thinking about Caboose and Battousai? How about rofl and Axel's posts on replacing in?PokerFace: "I need to play with [Ether] or Mizzy more often."
Nightson: "I'd be more then happy to play with Ether and Mizzy. At the same time."
Muerrto: "Mizzy is my hero and I wanna be like her when I grow younger <3"-
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Mizzy Furry
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Mizzy Furry
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Battousai:
No, it wasn't. Rhetorical, sarcastic, sure. But loaded? No. It could have bee answered just fine.Battousai wrote:Loaded question
No, that is not why I kept my vote on Ramus; I had already explained why I kept my vote on him before. I don't believe he was trying a specific gambit, no, but I believe he was trying to pullBattousai wrote:So you keep your vote on Ramus because he wanted Caboose to form a case instead of just whining? Do you believe he was trying Fong's Gambit? Does it make sense as he had hinted at it and not answering questions is extremely obvious?
Only half way through rereading the day, but I have to go. Right now I'm leaning on Mizzy, CarnCarn, and/or thAdmiral as scum with Ort more likely town. Since I'm not done reading, I will not vote or put a case on any of the three I listed as leaning scum.something. Don't go into WIFOM.
So, you have 2 small entries on me, before you finished re-reading the whole thing, and yet you are learning towards me? That stinks to high hell of you setting me up for suspicion and a later vote in order to make said suspicion and later vote look valid.
And you're not doing the exact same thing? It was very much a copout; it was giving as joke in lieu of content.Battousai wrote:That was obviously a joke, yet you take it as him being serious. Trying to make something scummy when it's not.
I already had answered A before and have answered B above. As to your C, I was on LoA and didn't have time for a whole lot due to work and the holidays. Counterproductive? No, I don't think so.Battousai wrote:A) How was Ramus acting scummy and how is being emotional a reason to vote?
B) So you don't believe in his Fong Gambit
C)Why not just unvote? See below quote
Why did you ask this when it had already been addressed?Battousai wrote:Seems to me, you're the one waiting around lately. Did you come up with Ort waiting around on the word of CR?
Doing it here and there is one thing but doing it a whole lot is another thing entirely.Battousai wrote:Ok, so it's not possible that Ort is the same way here? He couldn't have thought what he was accused of instead of just waiting for someone to make a case?
It was in an entire post addressed to him specifically without any sort of note that said, "Oh, by the way, this is to everyone." Even if it was to everyone, it was still ALSO addressed to ortolan.Battousai wrote:Wrong. CR addressed this to no one in particular (I assumed to Ramus since it was Ramus's gambit) in a seperate post. When you "reminded" him, all you said was "waiting on an answer for 155." That reminder wasn't addressed to anyone so I thought it was addressed with who I thought it was originally addressed to (Ramus). I find it completely plausible Ort was not dodging questions (which you seem to subtly suggest as dodging questions).
I have to say that this is what really pissed me off. Never once did you actually have any real case point, you asked things that had already been addressed, and in general, defended ort for what I feel is no apparent reason. You had zero case, don't even bother waiting for me to respond to anything or waiting for my responses before voting, and then just go ahead and vote me? Shame on you! You're a better player than that.Battousai wrote:Ok, my opinions after rereading the entire thread is that I believe Mizzy is scum, ThAdmiral could be scum, and CR might be scum. I feel CR really went at Ort prematurely and tunneled in with bad logic, which is scummy (but I can see town doing it as well, so I am hesitant to say with too much certainty of his alignment). A CR lynch today might lead to some interesting information for D2, but I feel a Mizzy lynch would lead to more since I feel she is scum, thus:
Vote: MizzyPokerFace: "I need to play with [Ether] or Mizzy more often."
Nightson: "I'd be more then happy to play with Ether and Mizzy. At the same time."
Muerrto: "Mizzy is my hero and I wanna be like her when I grow younger <3"-
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Had nothing to do with Caboose, no, it was about Ramus' attitude.Battousai wrote:Well then could you please elaborate on the "Whateva, ah do whu' ah want!" remark? I thought that was in reference to Ramus getting angry at Caboose for whining instead of voting.
You didn't point them out as scummy is my point. You just mentioned them.Battousai wrote:I found those two entries somewhat scummy. So how could I say I have no read on you when I have two things I found scummy? (rhetorical)
I can't go back and re-read right now, sorry. You'll have to go look on your own.Battousai wrote:Answer them again please, or give me a post number to where you explain how being emotional is a reason to vote. C) Where did you get counterproductive, I said contradiction. Also you said a vote on someone is better than a vote on no one. But later in the day you unvoted and didn't place another vote.
I unvoted because Ramus dropped off my scumdar enough that I didn't feel right having a vote on him, but I didn't have time to look at where else to put it, and I was waiting to see some responses anyway before I really had a read on a few conversations going on at the time. So yes, I did unvote, but I was semi-LoA and didn't want to leave my vote somewhere bad in case something happened I wasn't fast enough to respond to.
My point was that he posted in 138 and then later destructor asked him who else he was suspicious of, which I still can't find an answer to. Then he got into a tussle with CWR and the OMGUS fiasco, and then FoSes me and votes destructor in 163. No case. He just sat around, dodged questions, argued and then made shit votes/FoSes (possibly in an attempt to look productive.)Battousai wrote:You just made an accusation, as did CR, and didn't post where he took someone else's opinion and applied it as his own.
Because at first I didn't think it was addressed to everyone, and then I had no idea what Whoever-the-hell's Gambit was and I still don't. How can I answer when I don't know what it is and why should I answer when I think it's not relevant and a possible distraction? Plus, I was very strapped for time.Battousai wrote:Then why didn't you answer it?
Nope, I'm merely stating that, when I have played with you as town in the past, you were a much more thorough and well-thought-out player than you are here. Shame or no, it's my opinion, and it unsettles me that you voted me without getting ANY response from me whatsoever, at a time when you KNEW I was LoA and unable to defend myself. That smacks of scum.Battousai wrote:Are you trying to get me to stop voting you by shaming me or something?PokerFace: "I need to play with [Ether] or Mizzy more often."
Nightson: "I'd be more then happy to play with Ether and Mizzy. At the same time."
Muerrto: "Mizzy is my hero and I wanna be like her when I grow younger <3"-
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I think that scumpairing analysis on day one is completely WIFOM and no case should be using it. I can't take that shit seriously. I mean, what info are we going off of to even say those things? You can draw conclusions til the cows come home and still the only way to verify them is to kill both people in the pairing. Not a great way to play, at least on day 1.PokerFace: "I need to play with [Ether] or Mizzy more often."
Nightson: "I'd be more then happy to play with Ether and Mizzy. At the same time."
Muerrto: "Mizzy is my hero and I wanna be like her when I grow younger <3"-
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Machiavellian-Mafia:I'm waitching rofl and Axelrod at the moment but I haven't made any concrete determinations, yet...though if I were forced to pick someone, anyone, I'd pick rofl for his #285. I don't like when things are labeled as facts that are strewn with opinion.PokerFace: "I need to play with [Ether] or Mizzy more often."
Nightson: "I'd be more then happy to play with Ether and Mizzy. At the same time."
Muerrto: "Mizzy is my hero and I wanna be like her when I grow younger <3"-
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One should never vote or otherwise act on emotion. It clouds one's vision and is generally an anti-town way to do things. This is why OMGUS votes are scummy; because they are based off emotion and not facts or a case.Battousai wrote:The reason I asked you to give a post number or explain again because I didn't find anywhere where you gave a reason on why being emotional is reason to vote.
No, that is not what I am saying. I'm saying that he was dodging questions, not defending himself, and made some scummy plays on top of that.Battousai wrote:So you are saying he was lazy because he didn't scumhunt while being attacked. I've been in a game before (you moded) where someone was being attacked, but didn't scumhunt and at the end, were town IIRC. (The game was your Troy meet Helen)
Why are you speaking in the present tense for all this? These things are all in the past. And yes, I wanted him to answer it because the way the post was worded, it was directed only towards him, and he was dodging it. By the time I realized it wasn't aimed only at him, things had begun to move on and I don't think that everyone answered it anyway.Battousai wrote:Yet you keep wanting Ort to answer this and you get after Ort for not answering.PokerFace: "I need to play with [Ether] or Mizzy more often."
Nightson: "I'd be more then happy to play with Ether and Mizzy. At the same time."
Muerrto: "Mizzy is my hero and I wanna be like her when I grow younger <3"-
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How can you be so sure I'm scum when I am not on his wagon and in fact oppose his wagon?Natirasha wrote:The case against CWR I disagree with. Not sure why, but I think that there is all 3 scum on this wagon.Unvote.What the hell is wrong with you?PokerFace: "I need to play with [Ether] or Mizzy more often."
Nightson: "I'd be more then happy to play with Ether and Mizzy. At the same time."
Muerrto: "Mizzy is my hero and I wanna be like her when I grow younger <3"-
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So you add to it by being a hypocrite to yourself in the same post multiple times? Good job.Natirasha wrote:
Not sure. Honestly, there's something off about this whole game. As I was reading, everyone seemed a bit..artificial.Battousai wrote:Nat: Why are you willing to lynch Mizzy over just gut feeling and not giving her anything to defend against other than "Your gut's wrong."?PokerFace: "I need to play with [Ether] or Mizzy more often."
Nightson: "I'd be more then happy to play with Ether and Mizzy. At the same time."
Muerrto: "Mizzy is my hero and I wanna be like her when I grow younger <3"-
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I will vote when I am comfortable with doing so and not a moment before.Machiavellian-Mafia wrote:@Mizzy: The deadline is about two days away and I still haven't seen you vote since your unvote over 2 weeks ago.
I'm currently waiting on something a little more substantial from our star replacement, Natirasha, before voting him for his blatant inconsistencies. You want me to vote sooner then get him to post.PokerFace: "I need to play with [Ether] or Mizzy more often."
Nightson: "I'd be more then happy to play with Ether and Mizzy. At the same time."
Muerrto: "Mizzy is my hero and I wanna be like her when I grow younger <3"-
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His next post or posts can stop me from voting him, which is why I am waiting. What he says will directly impact my actions.Machiavellian-Mafia wrote:This sounds like you are planning to vote him regardless of what he will post. So if this is the case and he has blatant inconsistencies, why not vote now? Plus voting him will probably prompt him to post. Not voting is the worst thing one can do near a deadline.
And no, it's not the worst thing. Voting for someone who isn't going to get lynched is equal to not voting at all before a deadline; they are equal. Neither action stops a no-lynch.
Your vote isn't doing shit to stop a no-lynch, so leave me alone until that fact changes.PokerFace: "I need to play with [Ether] or Mizzy more often."
Nightson: "I'd be more then happy to play with Ether and Mizzy. At the same time."
Muerrto: "Mizzy is my hero and I wanna be like her when I grow younger <3"-
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I don't like vote hopping without extremely good reason. Not to mention that doing such things is kind of damned if you do, damned if you don't. I would rather be sure of a vote and stick with it than be wishy washy, but you do seem to know that already.destructor wrote:What would be the difference between (a) voting him now then unvoting if his next post changes your mind, and (b) waiting for him to post, which he may never do, before deciding what to do? If he never posts, does that mean you won't vote him? If you will, how long do you wait before placing the vote?
You can always remove a vote, so I see no point in waiting to decide when you've already found a reason to vote someone. Yes, this is somewhat consistent with my past experience with you, but I don't see a good reason to hold back on something like this.
I suppose that my big issue with the way things are at the moment is that I don't think that either Carn or CWR should be lynched. Since I won't vote either one of them, no vote I place is productive. No vote I am okay with making is going to be anything but unhelpful in my eyes.PokerFace: "I need to play with [Ether] or Mizzy more often."
Nightson: "I'd be more then happy to play with Ether and Mizzy. At the same time."
Muerrto: "Mizzy is my hero and I wanna be like her when I grow younger <3"-
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Checking in from work; I don't know how active I will be from now until the deadline so I am going to lodge my vote against Natirasha just in case.
My reasons for voting him have to do with his less-than-stellar replacing in and subsequent disappearance. Without the deadline in place, I would have called for his replacement, but time doesn't allow for that.
Vote: NatirashaPokerFace: "I need to play with [Ether] or Mizzy more often."
Nightson: "I'd be more then happy to play with Ether and Mizzy. At the same time."
Muerrto: "Mizzy is my hero and I wanna be like her when I grow younger <3"-
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First off, I don't see there being any way Nat gets lynched. Second off, if I have to vote someone (and I do have to vote, whether I want to or not, because if I don't, then I'm just scum trying to stay off wagons, right? Damned if you do, damned if you don't.) then I am going to vote someone that is less helpful and more scummy than the two candidates that are up on the block. If I had to choose between Nat being lynched and either CC or you being lynched, I'd choose Nat, yes.ClockworkRuse wrote:What? If I live through this day, you can certainly expect a re-read on you. You are willing to lynch based on one post by a player?PokerFace: "I need to play with [Ether] or Mizzy more often."
Nightson: "I'd be more then happy to play with Ether and Mizzy. At the same time."
Muerrto: "Mizzy is my hero and I wanna be like her when I grow younger <3"-
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Actually, I haven't responded to your post because I'm at work and don't have time to read it until tonight or even possibly until tomorrow. Small posts I can do, but not walls-o-text.Urzassedatives wrote:Heyo, Mizzy.
Care to respond and/or comment on the COMPLETELY NEW perspective of the game I just gave, rather than taking a cop out and continuing your petty bickering with clockwork ruse.
Why are you arguing with him, anyway? He's pretty much obv scum.
He asked me a question, I answered it. Would you prefer that I dodge his question? And maybe he's obvscum to you, but he's not to me.PokerFace: "I need to play with [Ether] or Mizzy more often."
Nightson: "I'd be more then happy to play with Ether and Mizzy. At the same time."
Muerrto: "Mizzy is my hero and I wanna be like her when I grow younger <3"-
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What the hell is with the sudden onslaught of Caboose/Urzassedatives votes? I call shenanigans.PokerFace: "I need to play with [Ether] or Mizzy more often."
Nightson: "I'd be more then happy to play with Ether and Mizzy. At the same time."
Muerrto: "Mizzy is my hero and I wanna be like her when I grow younger <3"-
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I only called shenanigans on the votes on you, actually.Urzassedatives wrote:Well, I would say the votes on me tended to develop from a "we have to lynch somebody at deadline, lets lynch the lurker" perspective, which is valid in it's own right I guess. However, I'm not here and not a lurker, so that case should disappear.
I have made a case on Clockwork, and I can only surmise that the votes on him have accumulated because of the same things I saw and have pointed out in my previous post. You call shenanigans, I call scummy play and a deadline.PokerFace: "I need to play with [Ether] or Mizzy more often."
Nightson: "I'd be more then happy to play with Ether and Mizzy. At the same time."
Muerrto: "Mizzy is my hero and I wanna be like her when I grow younger <3"-
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Ugh, sorry guys, we got called into work for both today and tomorrow, so my posting is going to be limited for a couple days.PokerFace: "I need to play with [Ether] or Mizzy more often."
Nightson: "I'd be more then happy to play with Ether and Mizzy. At the same time."
Muerrto: "Mizzy is my hero and I wanna be like her when I grow younger <3"-
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I also believe CR's claim, but then I didn't think he was scum in the first place.
IGMEOY: ortolanfor his #428 and especially for posting after that and not explaining himself. Holding off on a vote until he speaks up about it.PokerFace: "I need to play with [Ether] or Mizzy more often."
Nightson: "I'd be more then happy to play with Ether and Mizzy. At the same time."
Muerrto: "Mizzy is my hero and I wanna be like her when I grow younger <3"-
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Mizzy Furry
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No, I am IGMEOYing you because of the teensy post with no content and a blatant lack of information. Followed by the ignoring of CC's #431 and destructor's #432. You then attempt to justify that lack of content with a role allusion, and then accuse me of rolefishing when I had no idea that it had to do with your role at all.ortolan wrote:You've got your eye on me for preventing someone who you think is town from being lynched?
As should be obvious, explaining why I don't think CR is scum requires me at least partially roleclaiming. If you want me to, say so rather than subtly rolefishing.
Contrary to what CC thinks, my unvote on CR was a reaction to not thinking he was scum, rather than thinking Natirasha was. I don't believe I ever suggested Natirasha was scum.
And furthermore I believe withdrawing my vote on CR has been somewhat vindicated since, but I will wait for him to reply before saying why exactly.
What bothers me most is that you posted without addressing either Carn OR destructor and then when you finally address me, you do so in a highly aggressive manner. That is not very pro-town of you.PokerFace: "I need to play with [Ether] or Mizzy more often."
Nightson: "I'd be more then happy to play with Ether and Mizzy. At the same time."
Muerrto: "Mizzy is my hero and I wanna be like her when I grow younger <3"-
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ortolan:Wait, so you find me scummy for pointing out some weirdness in your play? Yes, that makes a whole lot of sense.
Ineverlike it when people go, "Oh, I can't say anything about that because it has to do with my role." No one can question that or prod at it, even if they feel it's a total cop-out, because then we get labeled as "rolefishing." It's basically untouchable.
That's all you had to say to clear things up, you realize. Instead, your first reply to me was a huge over-defensive thing with an attack on me for what I feel is no reason.ortolan wrote:Post 435 was intended as a reply to them.
I actually mis-read it, so I thought you were saying something about someoneortolan wrote:This doesn't even make sense...I alluded to my role as a reason for my unvote so unless you weren't reading:else'srole, which is why it pinged my radar.PokerFace: "I need to play with [Ether] or Mizzy more often."
Nightson: "I'd be more then happy to play with Ether and Mizzy. At the same time."
Muerrto: "Mizzy is my hero and I wanna be like her when I grow younger <3"-
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Okay guys, I'm currently re-reading the last few pages and once I finish, I'll post my thoughts and a response to ort.PokerFace: "I need to play with [Ether] or Mizzy more often."
Nightson: "I'd be more then happy to play with Ether and Mizzy. At the same time."
Muerrto: "Mizzy is my hero and I wanna be like her when I grow younger <3"-
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I'm not really feeling or understanding the CarnCarn votes on page 18, and in fact, I'm not pleased with Urza's vote with lack of reasoning in #445.
ThAdmiral's vote on destructor seemed like a huge reach, but then I am not really a fan of voting someone because something they did was "somewhat scummy."
Destructor:I'm not sold on CC's scumminess. Your case seemed to consist of "CC was voting CR." Why vote one of Urza or CC when they were both doing the same thing and you hadn't yet re-read Urza? Not an attack, that's a real question.
Ort:
How is this an inconsistency? Or scummy?ortolan wrote:Votes Ramus for self-voting. She mainly pursued him day one while also defending CR. This was apparently a "policy" vote, though, as she has not pursued Ramus' successor.
No, I said, "...so far I don't see the wagon on Clock..." which is not criticism, merely a disagreement.ortolan wrote:Post 73 criticises the wagon on CR without giving reasons.
Again, how is this an inconsistency or scummy?ortolan wrote:Post 99 uses CC's Post 95 criticism of urielzyx's Post 94 "WIFOM" again to defend ClockworkRuse.
No, it was a partial disagreement with your sentiment. You may have had reasons but in my opinion, they paled in the face of the OMGUS factor.ortolan wrote:This is a plain denial of the fact that even if my vote on CR was what is generally considered "OMGUS", i.e. I was voting him after he voted me, it certainly wasn't made with no reasons.
And you know what, I'm just going to stop answering the load of bull your entire post is. You completely manipulated what I said and instead of asking for reasoning or explanations for my actions, you write them up to suit your own "case." You not only failed to mention or address that I admitted that I had misread your post in which you claimed, but now you are using that against me as if I hadn't misread your post.
Most of the post you made about me simply lists things I did, and then the rest of it misrepresents things I said into things you are trying to say I did and only the end of it really explains why any of it MIGHT be scummy. The only real point you have against me is completely rendered useless due to the fact that my suspicion of you was based on a misread, which I admitted to, and so really, your case is a big fat load of nothing. Good job.
I will consider responding to the rest of that "case" once you re-write and re-think what you have there.PokerFace: "I need to play with [Ether] or Mizzy more often."
Nightson: "I'd be more then happy to play with Ether and Mizzy. At the same time."
Muerrto: "Mizzy is my hero and I wanna be like her when I grow younger <3"-
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In part because Ramus' playstyle and logic were what I distrusted. I felt that Axel voted CR for reasons that in his mind were sound, and not because he was trying to lynch a townie. In short, I found the replacement less anti-town than Ramus.ortolan wrote:Why did you drop off on attacking Axelrod/Ramus when Axelrod replaced in, when he voted CR which should have vindicated your suspicions?
Because he was (is) an active player with good, sound logic, pro-town actions, and not really much against him. I felt he was townie pretty early, but no one asked.ortolan wrote:Furthermore, why were you so defensive of CR even before there was good reason to believe he was townie?
I didn't lay suspicion on you, I pointed out something that at the time looked pretty scummy but I didn't ask anyone else to listen or follow along. "Laying suspicion" is something someone does to elicit and attack; I was hoping for responses to what I was saying from you in order to clear things up and if your responses were not sufficient, I would have voted you and not cared whether anyone else agreed with me. This is where I think you are being extremely over-aggressive and -defensive. I also don't credit you alone with saving CR so stop trying to look like a hero.ortolan wrote:Finally, why did you lay suspicion on me for causing the person you wanted to be lynched to be lynched, and for saving the person you didn't want to be lynched from being lynched?PokerFace: "I need to play with [Ether] or Mizzy more often."
Nightson: "I'd be more then happy to play with Ether and Mizzy. At the same time."
Muerrto: "Mizzy is my hero and I wanna be like her when I grow younger <3"-
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Why have you ignored everything else I've said and focused instead on making mountains of molehills?ortolan wrote:Why have you totally ignored these possibilities?PokerFace: "I need to play with [Ether] or Mizzy more often."
Nightson: "I'd be more then happy to play with Ether and Mizzy. At the same time."
Muerrto: "Mizzy is my hero and I wanna be like her when I grow younger <3"-
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You have missed parts and tried to gracefully side-step the entire unjustification of your gripe about my suspicion on you.ortolan wrote:I don't see how I have? Your comment about me not having "saved" CR doesn't make any sense to me under either interpretation I've tried to apply to it- it's either simply true (because I saved him by unvoting) or you mean it in the sense that he is "cleared", and I don't know why you would assume that.
Scum are anti-town, are they not? It implies that all I knew about him for sure was that his play was anti-town. I can't know whether or not the person I suspect is scum, so I go with the basics first. And to me, scum are bad "townies." They try to appear as town but aren't actually pro-town. Your disagreement with my playstyle does not make me scummy.ortolan wrote:I don't like voting for someone for being "anti-town" in the way you've done here. It implies you don't think they are scum but will vote for them anyway. This is what I was getting at- if you thought Ramus was scum, then you should have voted Axelrod. If you didn't think Ramus was scum, but simply a bad townie, you shouldn't have been voting for him to begin with. Townies are still townies nonetheless.
So your entire case now stands on nothing but your dislike about my playstyle, which isn't actually scummy, you just don't agree with it.PokerFace: "I need to play with [Ether] or Mizzy more often."
Nightson: "I'd be more then happy to play with Ether and Mizzy. At the same time."
Muerrto: "Mizzy is my hero and I wanna be like her when I grow younger <3"-
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Why are you asking me to tell you what I already have? See my above quote and read it carefully.ortolan wrote:
Please tell me what I have sidestepped. I found inconsistencies in your play and pointed them out to you.Mizzy wrote: You have missed parts and tried to gracefully side-step the entire unjustification of your gripe about my suspicion on you.
As your your inconsistencies, I have answered your comments on them and shown that most of them are misunderstandings or misrepresentations. And yet you continue to act like your case is still stable and valid. Why?PokerFace: "I need to play with [Ether] or Mizzy more often."
Nightson: "I'd be more then happy to play with Ether and Mizzy. At the same time."
Muerrto: "Mizzy is my hero and I wanna be like her when I grow younger <3"-
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Exactly what I said. It feels like you want to put yourself on a pedestal for your actions that prevented one lynch and caused another, and while you may have done a good thing, I really hate it when people have to get all high and mighty about it.ortolan wrote:1)
What, exactly, did you mean by this?Mizzy Post 462 wrote:I also don't credit you alone with saving CR so stop trying to look like a hero.
I believe that most of what he said and how he said it was intelligent and perceptive, yes. I didn't say he was perfect, and I didn't always agree with him, but I admire(d) his playstyle and helpful thoughts.ortolan wrote:2) Do you believe that on day one, CR was being consistently "intelligent and very perceptive" when he spent most of the day attacking me, and subsequently admitted he had been tunneling?
It depends on the game. If I didn't know my own sanity, then yes, I might. If there was a traitor and I knew it, then I might. If it were someone who was severely hampering a potential town-win, then yes, I might. There are circumstances in which I would try and get some one lynched in your scenario, butortolan wrote:3) Theoretically, if you were a cop, had investigated someone and knew them to be innocent, but found their play extremely unhelpful to town, would you still call for them to be lynched?neverwould I lie to make that happen. Does that make sense?PokerFace: "I need to play with [Ether] or Mizzy more often."
Nightson: "I'd be more then happy to play with Ether and Mizzy. At the same time."
Muerrto: "Mizzy is my hero and I wanna be like her when I grow younger <3"-
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Mizzy Furry
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Good thing your opinion means absolutely nothing, huh?ThAdmiral wrote:But if that's your playstyle I think that makesyoua "bad townie".
Also you're sort of strawmanning his case against you.
And no, I'm not strawmanning anything. I answered and debunked his points and he refuses to admit it or back down on any of them, even the one where he was glaringly wrong.PokerFace: "I need to play with [Ether] or Mizzy more often."
Nightson: "I'd be more then happy to play with Ether and Mizzy. At the same time."
Muerrto: "Mizzy is my hero and I wanna be like her when I grow younger <3"-
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Mizzy Furry
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Except the entire part where you suspected me for what ended up being a misread on my part. Basically, I suspected you for something that really wasn't what I thought it was (I had misread your post) and admitted that. Yet you have still not addressed or explained why that seems to be still a part of your case when it's not even valid.ortolan wrote:err wut?
What of my points were wrong?
You may have been successful in reducing some of my points to subjectivity e.g. arguing that it is acceptable to vote a town player who is being unhelpful (although I still disagree, and think this is bad town play in and of itself and/or scummy), but in no way have you demonstrated any of my points were "glaringly wrong" in any way whatsoever.
What other points in your case do you feel are still valid enough to be still voting me?PokerFace: "I need to play with [Ether] or Mizzy more often."
Nightson: "I'd be more then happy to play with Ether and Mizzy. At the same time."
Muerrto: "Mizzy is my hero and I wanna be like her when I grow younger <3"-
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Mizzy Furry
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That's pretty much how I always am when people interject opinions that I don't care about and that aren't helpful to the game.ThAdmiral wrote:@ mizzy: why so defensive?PokerFace: "I need to play with [Ether] or Mizzy more often."
Nightson: "I'd be more then happy to play with Ether and Mizzy. At the same time."
Muerrto: "Mizzy is my hero and I wanna be like her when I grow younger <3"-
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Mizzy Furry
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