Newbie 621 (Game Over!)

[Mirth]

/confirm (and apologies, mod, for the name confusion that will surely ensue)

[Mirth]

Vote: Mirth

TSQ is obviously scum!

OMGUS vote: TSQ

[Mirth]

Malex, Merc what kind of logic are you looking for?

Malex, explain the rest of your comment please?

[Mirth]

Other than that, I am sure that Thestatusquo will get back to all of us sooner if he knows that my vote on Mercdaemon hangs in the balance. (I was looking for a clever way to get into the game. I don't know if I succeeded.)

Your vote on Merc hangs in the balance? So it's not all that random itself then? Are you saying if you don't like TSQ's answer you'll switch to voting him too? Or that you want to vote TSQ but aren't because I already am (in that case what's stopping you?)? Why the contingency?

[Mirth]

My vote for Merc is indeed a random vote. I am saying that it is a little too early to know for sure who to vote for just yet, the game has just started. With that said since others are random voting to get the game going (with the only exception at the moment being TheStatusQuo as he claims in Post 18), my vote was an attempt to be clever and not simply resorting to using random.org. In the meantime, I am sticking with my vote until I get more information.

How do you know the others are random voting? *I'm* not random voting, for instance.

[Mirth]

As I see it, there's very little evidence, maybe TSQ has picked up on some little thing that I haven't?

You mean before I even posted anything? What are you suggesting he picked up on? Thin air?

Kristopf, why do you think he has any reason to believe I'm scum yet? Also all *she's* done is cast an "OMGUS" vote *after* TSQ's vote and harassed some of the newbies a little. Why so eager to start a wagon on TSQ? Like you said, it's page 2m and yet you're already casting a second vote.

Malex, what do you mean by accusation?Why do you think we'd react badly to your "random" vote? You're the only one who brings it up.

[Mirth]

Kristopf, why do you think he has any reason to believe I'm scum yet? Also all *she's* done is cast an "OMGUS" vote *after* TSQ's vote and harassed some of the newbies a little. Why so eager to start a wagon on TSQ? Like you said, it's page 2m and yet you're already casting a second vote.

Malex, what do you mean by accusation?Why do you think we'd react badly to your "random" vote? You're the only one who brings it up.

Mirth, you seem to be quite the provocateur. I am thinking that you are just rousing rabbles, but it is leading to a general suspicion. You take innocuous statements that I make and try to distort them. If you are doing just to as you say "harass a newbie" then that is fine, but it is possible that you could be up to more.

QFT

Yes. I am trying to get y'all to talk since I kind of have RVS (random voting stage)

Is it just me, or does it seem like TSQ is telling everyone to vote Mirth without any *known* reason, while Mirth is trying to stop us from voting TSQ...

Let's say that they're both mafia, then maybe they decided to move suspicion away from each other by voting for themselves, but it went slightly wrong and now Mirth is trying to stop TSQ getting lynched?

Wrong. TSQ is obviously voting me because he's played with me before. (Which is the real reason I'm voting him. I would still be voting him regardless of whether or not he was voting me) But you seem to be suggesting it's okay to be all gung ho about lynching someone on page 2, regardless if it is TSQ. Do you this it is okay? Or do you agree with me that it is absolutely vital to avoid early pointless lynches coming out of RVS and TSQ being his usual annoying self?

Kristopf, why are you backing down? It's only a second vote, the world isn't going to end if you had kept your second vote on TSQ. Heck, you might have even gotten him to talk some sense.

Zeal, why your unvote?

[Mirth]

EBWOP: hate^ hate RVS.

[Mirth]

Always on time.

what is the purpose of this comment.

[Mirth]

What's the purpose in voting in the first message in the game?

The purpose is obliviously that it doesn't have purpose. I just feel like it. You have posted three pages of text so I think I missed the start. I'm new one in here so I don't know what's the ordinary way of doing things here. But I guess it's far away from what I have been used to. And today was a bad day, the first of the holiday x). I hate holidays, too much time to do nothing.

Why are you getting defensive?

and the purpose of voting in the first message is to get people active and responding and talking about something. not everyone likes RVS, or engages in it, but it is useful as a springboard

You however have 2 and a bit of a third page of us talking. Why not respond to that instead of posting something that is honestly kind of useless.

And why are you bringing up that you're new? 6 out of 9 players here are new. No need to point it out. I don't like it when the newbie card is played needlessly (see newbie 606 for an explanation of the newbie card. its been beaten to death in there with a stick)

Soooo...I'll tell you what I'm going to do.

I'm going to

unvote:TSQ

, and

vote:Nahraza

can anybody tell me why I just did that?

[Mirth]

vote: Nahraza

, for the same real reason mirth voted nahraza.

And what was that? Why do you feel the need to borrow my reason. Why not provide your own.

Sorry, I forgot what I was playing . But I was saying that because I'm new _here_ and lazy that I haven't been reading much games in here so I don't know what is the way of doing things here. I have played this kind of games before but where I have played the whole system is totally different. Thinking things over and over is not the best part of me x).

You *forgot* what you were playing. You're only in one game (i.e. this one). Kind of hard to forget what kind of game this is after going through the newbie queue.

Mmm... I don't know. But it isn't useless, I think. It made you to vote me . *naurs* And now you know that I'm awake.

And what you've said in this post so far is going to make me keep my vote on you. Post was still useless in that it did not contribute any to the game in a stand alone sense. It did not comment on action or discussion previously held and it did not participate. It wasn't even a "hi, I don't have time right this second but I'll read/respond" later post.

Ooooo, but it's kind of useless..? If my "useless" posts are useless why isn't that too . And now you can talk about me, yea .

I'd rather talk with you than about you, frankly. RVS isn't useless. It has a use to get conversation started. Your post did not have this use when you made it. You are trying to retroactively give it a use. Why? Why not just admit that it was useless? Why defend yourself on something that needs no defense?

Would you yourself tell that, maybe?

Maybe later. I'd like to hear what the peanut gallery thinks before I explain myself. Battousai got it, though, I think.

[Mirth]

Ya I got it, I didn't want to answer your question as I thought it was directed more to the newbies in the game.

No. This was direct to everyone. Being an IC doesnt get you off the hook. And you didn't respond to the rest of my comment to you. Why? (Note: fear not, newbies, I'm equal opportunity in my harassment ^_^)

I'll explain once more. I said that I'm new here because I'm new _here_. I have played multiple games at another forum, and there the way we play is a bit different. The point is, I might use some of the customs we use there. Most of the "newbies" here haven't played this game on a forum. It was one sentence, and you turned it into a battle. Great.

And I'll say it once more. Most of the people here are new. We (the ICs) will take it for granted that you may not have the best of clues of what is going on. Pointing it out when it is not necessary, however, makes me, at least (Batto, TSQ, you can feel free to disagree with me on this), think that you're trying to take advantage of newbie status. As for battle, why do you say battle? I'm just asking you questions and you're getting defensive. I repeat, why?

Okay, I know, it is easy to say now, but still. Would you have commented anything to a "hi, I don't have time right this second but I'll read/respond later" post? I don't think so.

No because that would not be as useless. That would indicate the player was paying attention to the fact that there are previous posts that might be worth reading.

And I can give my post a use retroactively (what a great word, by the way Very Happy) if I like. What is so horrible about that? I'm sure that RVS didn't originally have that kind of use. Originally it was just random voting and then someone thought "hey, this is a good way to get conversation started".

The point is that you're inserting intention that was not there and thus attempting to skew context. If you do it with something as insignificant as one useless post, what are you going to do when someone attacks you for something else? Town usually has no need to skew context. And scum, if skewing context, cant make it so obvious as to get caught.

[Mirth]

I'm just asking you questions and you're getting defensive. I repeat, why?

Because I have two votes now. That's why I'm defensive.

You got defensive before I voted you. And you need 5 for a lynch. You think we'd go for a quick lynch on you? Why? Are 2 votes really all that scary?

[Mirth]

Why is Mirth not dead yet?

Because

god

Darwin hates you.

[Mirth]

If two votes are not all that scary to you, then

Vote: Mirth.

Although it really is just one reasoned vote and TSQ's "we know each other so it is not a random vote," random vote.

Nah, I'm betting its because before this game is out TSQ and I will end up having given each other huge headaches (if 509 is any indication). And nope, not spooked by the second vote.

I actually feel that TSQ is doing a disservice to the voting on Mirth, so I am going to take a crack at it. If I may direct your attention to a comment that I made on page two but was answered on page three. In her answer, you will see that she agrees with me that she seems shady and then goes on harassing more of the Newbies.

It does bother me, however, that you're so quick to find "shadiness" in my provocation. Think what you will, but I do ask you to think.

First of all, agreeing that I should be suspicious of you does not make me any less suspicious of you.

Who said I want to make you less suspicious of me? Maybe I want you to use your head and decide on your own if you want to be suspicious of me?

Secondly you once again stated that having two votes on someone may not make the world end and maybe it will make them talk sense. I don't think you need to talk sense as most of the things you said are logical, but I would like a few answers.

One answer I am looking for is why immediately after that post your next post was to jump all over the first thing Nahraza says and change your vote to him (or her)?

I think you're trying to find my honest opinion on game theory in what I've said so far. That should become obvious once I'm done provoking all of you.

As to why I jumped on Nahraza, I want you to think about that for a second. I mean truly think what in Nahraza's post really bothered me. (And I will give you a hint: that is an honest vote that I will stick by until Nahraza stops whatever it is that made me suspicious, or someone does something worse. I'll also give you another hint. Nahraza's subsequent posts only made it worse.) I'm not going to give you a straight answer to this yet because I want to see if anyone can figure it out on their own.

I for one can not tell you why you did that. While we can agree that Nahraza did not enter the game as gracefully as everyone else that made a random vote on page 1, does that really warrant you deciding that he should be the man to die at the end of Day 1? I would like an answer from you, as well as Battousai, as he voted for Nahraza as well.

Woah, hold on, what? Can you please show me where I decided that Nahraza has to die at the end of day 1? We're on page 3. The fact that you're suggesting this makes me think you're in a hurry. Why are you in a hurry?

Overall I find that while your tactics are getting people to speak up, it is as if you are trying to bully people into a mob mentality using your IC status as Newbie would use their's.

Am I really? And what am I trying to get them to be a mob about? I have obviously been treating all newbie players here like soulless entities sharing a hive brain and incapable of independent thought, since you can clearly see from my posts so far how I make no effort to differentiate among them and ask them questions relating to their individual posts.

Furthermore, you attack everything that is said in the hopes that it will stick.

Is this logical, I ask you? Wouldn't it be so much easier for scum-Mirth to only find one or two players to harass and do it well instead of spreading herself thin and harassing everyone? And am I actually attacking or just asking? You find hostility in my posts, is it actually there or do you assume it is and read my posts as such? And what am I trying to stick where, exactly? I'd like to know. Really.

Why are you being so aggressive? It is coming across incredibly scummy in my opinion. It is still early on, we all have our suspicions of others, but I am most suspicious of you.

You are accusing me of something that you could be accused of of doing yourself (i.e. playing aggressively) why is it an aparrant scum tell for me but not for you?


To everyone else: I'd really like to hear you talk, pretty please with sugar on top? I don't bite. Much.

[Mirth]

I won't confirm or deny. I want to see who else thinks I'm scum first.

[Mirth]

Kristopf, Good Posting! But can you please kindly answer the comment directed at you in post 39?

vote:Nahraza

can anybody tell me why I just did that?

I'll take a stab at this question,

All Nahraza has posted so far has been noise. In our 3 pages so far we've had plenty of discussion, open questions, and a few early suspects, and yet Nahraza ignores all of this and doesn't even random vote. It gets worse when he starts getting overly defensive and playing the newbie card in every post.

Yes. This is true. Note hoe I only voted Nahraza *after* getting a defensive response. What you and Batto missed, though, is that part of my vote is reaction testing. If Nahraza reacted to my satisfaction, my vote might have not stayed there.

Two votes for him is enough right now, this town seems a bit bloodthirsty for this early in the day, but if his next few posts don't have way more content I'd feel comfortable voting him.

Why blood thirsty? I certainly wouldn't let it turn into a quick lynch. I'm sure Batto would feel the same way on that. I don't really like this comment. Not entirely sure why.

@TSQ:
I still see no way in which your actions so far in this game benefit the town. No one else seems willing or able to explain. You and Mirth have played together before, but YOU are the one who seems to be the troublemaker here.

Don't ask me to explain. Explaining entails and presupposes understanding.

[Mirth]

Nahraza coming in and not commenting on the previous 2.5 pages of finger pointing at all, over multiple posts, does seem suspicious. Okay, you may not have played on this particular board before and you may not have read up on other games, but surely you would have read the contents of

this

game.

For now, that's an IGMEOY/FoS/whatever from me. Would like to hear what you have to say, my opinion may changed based on that.

Anything else to say that isn't just echoing what was already mentioned on Nahraza?

Mirth, you have given me a lot to consider, without letting me in on your thinking. I do hope at some point I get to hear you explain yourself on that, instead of reading you tell other people that try to interpret you they are either wrong or don't fully understand you. With that said, you said...

I said they had it right, but it wasn't just the defensiveness and the uselessness. It was a bad reaction to vote first put on to test reaction.

I am in no hurry. However am I mistaken in interpreting that your vote to lynch Nahraza means as of when you voted, you thought that Nahraza was scum and should be killed? I realize that you wanted to see what else he and everyone else had to say, but how else am I to read into that vote?

Page 3. I don't think anyone is scum this early in the game unless

they're TSQ

they do something incredibly stupid or pretty much put on a bright orage traffic vest and a shimmery pink tutu and run around declaring they're scum. (Im that case, either the mod is a bastard, or they benefit from being lynched.)

I don't think your "case" is off base in how you're pressing it. You're pressing it too early though, I think. If you think I'm scum, then harass me, ask questions, get me to slip up. *Build* a case.

Maybe a FoS would have been better?

No. I wanted a genuine reaction, FOS doesn't give that as much as a vote. An FoS tells other players what you're thinking. A vote tells other players what you're willing to do. In my opinion anyway.

For the record, I'm quite bad at finding scum unless its blaringly obvious. Just good at getting people to talk.

Ah, the weather is so nice in the morning, don't you think? Perfect time to write some more nonsense and make myself more suspicious. (This may be the game that breaks my record of dieing early in the game, I think. When would I get more intelligent and recognize what is the worst time to get attention... Maybe never.)

Or you could look over the past few pages and tell us what yu think so far. I'd like that much better. I'm sure everyone else would too.

Anyway, I don't think Mirth is scum.

And I think it's too early for you to think that.

That you can wait forever :>. Because I don't even know what is so suspicious, but I know that almost every one can see it. And then they'll lynch me for nothing. Does suspiciousness make you a bad guy, scum? Heh, this is fun ^^. This only takes ages to find the right words, but I have time.

It's been explained already, but I'll explain it again.
1. You show up in the middle of an ongoing discussion and don't contribute
2. When asked about not contributing you get defensive and continue to not contribute
3. You play the newbie card in a game filled with newbies
4. You continue to be defensive and claim not to know what you did when its been explained and continue to fail to participate in the conversation.

I don't really like this part of your post much because it seems like you're trying to invoke pity. Because no one has said you're scum. Only that you're suspicious. One does not necessarily entail the other.

Did I yet mention that I'm new in here?

Continuing to do so even jokingly will not make me any less suspicious, you know. Why are you overplaying it?

And would you, Mirth, kindly tell me what on earth should I have been responded? My reactions sucks anyway because of my bad english.

Your english isn't that bad, and I make allowances for english not being someone's first language. That is not the issue I take with your posts.

The response that would not have made me harass you would have been not backing down in response to my first question and not being defensive regardless of what you said. Also if you included some analysis of previous posts (which you are still not doing), I would have been thrilled.

No, I wouldn't have, if you'd known me.. I'm too lazy and that isn't so interesting ^^. My concentration isn't enough to read all the posts. And going back few pages would bring up long post full of quotes and that wouldn't help you a bit. I wouldn't be too much help either way. Even if I have played mafia many times, I haven't been much help because I'm too lazy and I enjoy these games too much to be serious.

...W.T.F.? You're too lazy to play? I think my vote stays because this is one of the poorest excuses I've ever read. Maybe you're like benhalkum and just can't help being suspicious, but there cant be that many copies of him out there. I hope.

Zeal: Its important for Nahr to reply to at least some of it so the rest of us can get a read.

[Mirth]

Well I certainly remember the game even if he doesn't because its not over yet and I'm doing a reread.

Good posting, btw.

[Mirth]

If I see right, Silencio has posted only once in the whole game. Why? And that only post is some kind of unnoticeable and pointless.

This is a good point! Yay! Something useful and relevant!

And I think it's too early for you to think that.

Why?

Right now I'm in IC mode. I'm trying to provoke conversation and get y'all thinking because its my job as an IC. I also tend to play the beginning of a game pretty much the same regardless of whether I'm town or not. If I'm scum it just means I haven't had the chance to screw up yet. I just dont want any of you to feel secure in trusting anyone until you get enough evidence to do so, and even then, dont trust anyone completely. Pretend you're Agent Mulder (just don't turn into an annoying whiny Mary Sue...please...)

^^;;; Maybe I am :>. But some times even I can read few pages of something that my brains can't fully understand. This is getting interesting. I know only one person that is more suspicious than me and we lynch him all the time even if he aren't a bad guy.

This bothers me a bit but I'm not sure if it's your english or if this means what I think it might mean...

Unvote: Mirth.

I feel that you have done a good job explaining yourself, and while I am still suspicious of you, that does not warrant a vote for you at this time.

Wasn't trying to explain myself in defense. Was trying to take you all along my thought process. Don't particularly care either way if you think I'm suspicious or not.

[Mirth]

Mod: can you tells us if Silencio picked up his prod?

Why are all the rest of you quiet now?

[Mirth]

TSQ- I don't care what your reasons are for voting Mirth, it's not a vote based on meta, a pressure vote, reaction vote, or anything. All it is doing is distracting the town somewhat, and keeping you from actually playing the game mostly (I believe you only posted like 2 questions in one post to stimulate discussion)

So TSQ contradicts himself and you're willing to pass it off as banter?

Where do you get the impression that Batto is willing to pass it off as anything?

[Mirth]

I wasn't so much waiting on TSQ as Nahraza. Or anyone else really. Felt like I was monologuing.

[Mirth]

Comment: not to defend either, but lurking/not posting isn't necessarily a scum tell. Sometimes its a "I'm so overwhelmed I don't know what to say tell" for newbies, or a "I'm too busy and I forgot this game" or a "this game bores me" tell for nonnewbies. The fact that they're not posting shouldn't be suspicious in and of itself. (For the record: Mirth does not think lurky=suspicious)

[Mirth]

Except we don't know if he *is* distracting the town. He can answer what he's doing for himself when he responds.

[Mirth]

Gremwell, do you consider 2 people a wagon worth paying attention to? What do you think of Malex? What do you think of Nahraza? Do you really think scum-TSQ would give himself away that easily?

[Mirth]

either way I would say no big loss for a D1 lynch.

wouldn't there only be 2 scum in a game this size, or is it 3?

As for the rest everyone is supicious, anything can make a case at this point, lurking, hyper posting, wagoning, avoiding wagons.

unvote:nahraza
vote:Gremwell

Can someone tell me why i just did that?

Malex: I think you're participating. Which is good. No opinion beyond that, why?

[Mirth]

*raises hand* because my post was destructive in that it may cause to discredit any reasonable suspicions without adding any constructive content whatsoever.

Indeed very scummy

Wrong. Anyone else want to take a guess?

[Mirth]

Still no.

[Mirth]

I asked because you are one of the more outspoken people here and I could get away with it for that purpose.

Now then, I'd prefer if someone could say it for me, but fine.

I'm voting Grem because (this order is the order in which i think the reasons are important)
a) he said we could do without Nahraza. We don't know if Nahraza is scum yet, and cant know, so anybody willing to simply write off a player without much thought or effort on page *5* (if Grem had posted something specific about Nahraza's play, not just that Nahraza is probably bored with the game, this would not bother me. This comes off as an excuse to be willing to later jump on a wagon if one forms.)
b) hes not sure of the number of scum in this game. This is an open setup. I realize that this could just be a newbie mistake, but it strikes me as disingenuous because its right there in the rules of this thread.
c) he ignored my questions.

[Mirth]

what questions did I ignore?

Gremwell, do you consider 2 people a wagon worth paying attention to? What do you think of Malex?

What do you think of Nahraza?

Do you really think scum-TSQ would give himself away that easily?

[Mirth]

EWBOP: Also why do you only focus on that part. No answer to the other two which actually bother me more.

[Mirth]

the reason I asked if it was 2 scum in the game is that if that were the case a wagon of 2 would be enough, granted it would be a poor move on the scum's part.

Why? You cant lynch with 2 votes, you need a majority.

[Mirth]

I asked because you are one of the more outspoken people here and I could get away with it for that purpose.

Get away with what for what purpose? I don't understand.

I needed a pretense for getting Grem to talk. Asking for opinions = pretense.

[Mirth]

I was looking back through the thread before going to sleep and thought it may be worth posting TSQ zeal and Nahraza haven't posted since the 4th, and there has been plenty to talk about, including questions directed to TSQ.

While lurking =/= scum like you said, I personally don't like it.

Just bringing it to the courts attention

Yet what about your predecessor's lack of posting. Sure, it could just be that he thought better of playing here, but not to bring it to the courts attention would be unfair. This seems a bit underhanded to me..."I don't suspect lurkers, but these people have been lurking! Look at them!"

Thanks for clearing that up for me Mirth. I do appreciate you explaining your thinking, as I know you don't have to.

I'm usually rather clear about my thinking. But I'm going to use the advantage of trying to drag it out of the rest of you for a couple of pages more I think.

No one really stands out as suspicious to me yet, but I wouldn't expect them to this early in the game.

Don't you have anything non-general/middle of the road to say? Like asking a question about a previous post or something?

[Mirth]

I just like to point out that Mirth, while helpful and the key agent giving this game froward momentum, could just as easily be scum as any of the rest of us,

She's even said she plays the beginning rounds the same scum or not.

Yes, what is the point of this part of your post, exactly? I've pointed this out myself multiple times and have discouraged people from trusting me. So you're just bringing this up out of the blue as if its some important new discovery, yet Malex already suspects that I might be scum, and there are 2 others ICs around besides me to discourage trusting me. Sounds like you're reaching for an excuse to attack me.

I have a question for you Mirth, what do you think is the strategy (if any) behind TSQ's play so far? I offered an idea, only other thing is you're both scum and your just trying distance yourselves from each other, but once again TSQ outing himself so easily is unlikely

Actually that isn't the only other possibility. And I'm *not* listing them all. You can ask TSQ himself. As for his play strategy so far? He hasn't actually started playing yet, as far as I can tell. So no strategy to comment on.

[Mirth]

._____. Yea? I could say that I'm not disinterested in playing, but some times I'm just too lazy to pick up something that I see is some kind of useless. Or then I'm too gullible and think "Mmm... maybe he doesn't do that on purpose, maybe that's his playing style.. naah, maybe he isn't so bad after all even if he made some mistakes..." ... and again, getting defensive. But you aren't only one that thinks I'm someone you could do without. I like playing, I like explaining my motives even if I really don't have them exactly. Even if I'm not use to finding scum, I enjoy games. It isn't so dangerous to let people think that I'm useless, that's what they think and what is important is what I know is true. (And for the newbie side: what on earth is vanilla townie? I have wondered it for some time now.)

So you don't even want to try? Gosh this really bothers me. (BTW "vanilla townie" means townie with no powers/night actions or anything. Just a townie. I personally use the word "townie" for protown and "vanilla" for vanilla townie, so as not to confuse anyone in the future. Most people use "townie" for vanilla townie)

I wonder... If my defensive posts where I answer to your questions have nothing to do with the actual game, why on earth do you want me to speak and answer to you? Or why then I bother writing posts full of answers. Naaa, there is something that is no right, but what is it... But I agree that I'm a bit too much defensive. Bad habbit x).

Because it would be wonderful if your posts werent just "I'm defensive and lazy and don't have time to comment on anything else" Would be nice if you commented on other players.

[quote="Nahr"
My opinion on Gremwell, hmmm... I think Gremwell isn't so suspicious or baddie. He got some points in there, not too lazy, eager to answer and so on. Ääääwwww, I don't really know. But my instinct tell that I wouldn't be lynching him for the first. Better than Silencio (or who was before him) at least.[/quote]

Then who do you have an opinion on?

Merc: Why would someone who isn't scum want to distract the town? Most of the time, distracting the town is unintentional. If he's town then I just pointed it out to get him to stop.

I can't really see how telling us to lynch someone without having any apparent reason can be unintentionally distracting the town.

Nor can I. Nor can I really see why Battousai is defending TSQ. Malex and I brought up some stuff, I think it's up to TSQ to explain what he's doing rather than anyone else.

Because it was in RVS. A lot of what people say in RVS is banter that actually has nothing to do with the game.

But, on that note,

TSQ, stop lurking

goddamnit

Darwindamnit, and say something!

[Mirth]

On post activity: It is meta, but this is one meta I don't frown upon if it is blatant. (Batto and TSQ can disagree). I only use post activity in the following case as an indicator of anything:

Player is not posting in the thread, has been prodded repeatedly, is not replaced, mod said he's picked up prods, this has been going on at least 2 weeks or 10 pages, whichever comes second, player is not v/la. If player is only ignoring that one particular game, I will use the meta. If player is equally AWOL in all games and not posting anywhere else, just means hes AWOL. If player is ignoring some games and not others, that doesn't mean very much as far as I'm concerned.

The above is just my personal take on that meta, and even if player meets the criteria fore me to use the meta, but theres a player who is playing and playing scuumy, i'd probably go for active scum.

[Mirth]

Hello there

Vote:TSQ

You just put an L-2 vote on him. What's the hurry?

[Mirth]

I'd like to see what he has to say for himself, and he seems to be taking his sweet time to respond with any sort of content so I thought a little pressure would help the process along.

and this isn't the first time someone got 2 votes on this thread, if I recall I have 2 vote on me. 2 is far from a lynch and I've been refreshing all day so if it went close before we got an answer I can pull back

3. Not 2. (L-2 means 2 away from lynch). (personally, I start to wonder about votes once they become half of what is needed for a lynch)

[Mirth]

Why did you back down from your vote so easily?

[Mirth]

That would be nice, yes. I have a feeling that everyone is waiting on TSQ though...

[Mirth]

Well its just about the end of the day so I'm going to put my vote back up here

Says who? Day doesn't end until we all decide so or the mod deadlines. Why are you in a hurry? And what do you have to say about Batto catching a contridiction on your part

[Mirth]

Comon Mirth, it's pretty clear from context what he meant here: He's talking real life days.

I'm a bit of an insomniac, so no, this was no obvious to me.

[Mirth]

TSQ why are you still lurking?

[Mirth]

unvote: Gremwell

vote:Zeal

I don't care if he is lurking, putting him at L-1 is not justifiable right now.

[Mirth]

Why not? If someone puts a final vote on him we'll be able to tell that they're scum immediately.

Because as unhelpful and for all intents and purposes useless TSQ is being right now, lurky =/= scum, so there's no actual reason to wagon him but pressure to make him talk. The issue with putting him at L-1 is that someone who is trigger happy might hammer him. A lot of times the trigger happy are actually impatient town. Scum isn't usually stupid enough to be the hammer vote on an early meritless wagon. Batto may of course disagree with me here.

[Mirth]

Because as unhelpful and for all intents and purposes useless TSQ is being right now, lurky =/= scum, so there's no actual reason to wagon him but pressure to make him talk.

Isn't it a bit much to try and classify TSQ's posting as merely "lurky"? We've pretty much all been asking for some input from him for quite a while now, and he has posted since then, just without any semblance of substance.

His strategy is starting to look more and more fishy, but for the life of me I can't work out why he'd be playing like this.

I say lurky because he's posting in GD at least. Why do you think it's a bit much to try and classify him as lurky? What kind of connotations does the word have for you?

[Mirth]

Batto, while I see and concede your point, I'd rather wait a bit longer conversationwise before making a call on it. While lurkers throw off reads and can possibly cost a game, I'd much rather lynch someone who is actual scum. I will not get into when I draw the line at lynching them, because there are ways of determining which side they're on. <blatantly obvious thing that I will not speculate on>

Now then, since this is all stagnant, I'm going to throw out a question to all of you, please answer:

If you had to pick someone to lynch now, who would you pick and why. (If your first choice is TSQ please give a second choice also, because I'm really very not fond of lurker lynches)

[Mirth]

Agreed that we don't know that TSQ isn't scum, but I'm really not fond of the idea of lynching lurkers when there are scummy acting people around.

[Mirth]

My second choice: Gremwell. I was actually going to vote him earlier to get some reasction out of him as soon as TSQ started to cooperate, unless TSQ's cooperation became scummy.

Gremwell: Why do you not like that quote? You would give Mirth a FOS for that comment, but you never said why that comment was suspicious.

Thought it was kind of obvious why he FOSed me. Why ask that?

[Mirth]

I mean I thought his explanation with the FOS was kind of obvious.

[Mirth]

TSQ is not off limits, its just more advisable to try and drag something out of him first. Since we're not deadlined and we have all the time in the world until the mod decides that this day is taking too long and deadlines us, we can afford to try and wait him out a bit.

Zeal, refusing to cooperate is not protown, but simply not playing is not a scumtell. Though if he keeps posting in GD but not here, I'll have no issue with lynching him.

Nahraza: if you have to lynch someone now, how would you lynch? (If TSQ is your first choice who is your second an why?) Whom do you suspect? What do you think about lurking as a scumtell? do you have anything at all to contribute?

[Mirth]

I see Nahr playing the lazy card more than the dumb card. Since I think all or at least most of you have contributed your suspects, I'll contribute mine. (Why didn't anyone call on me to answer my own question?)

Grem, for being willowy in his posts and backing down too easily from a challenge from me. (Future advice for all of you: this is how I won my first game as scum, taking advantage of someone who back down too easily. If you have an opinion, stick with it. Anyone who buckles under even the slightest bit of pressure is sure to draw suspicion.)

Nahr, for not playing despite being here.

Merc, for pointing out a lot of the obvious.

[Mirth]

Wait him out for 3 more pages or one more week, whichever comes later? If he keeps not responding, mod might replace him.

Malex, *never* let the thought of someone not answering stop you from asking. Since we're now at page 9, I'm pretty much done with arbitrary reaction testing and will explain most of my actions if called on them.

[Mirth]

I think whoever is scum in this game is playing well and has yet to out themselves to I'm going to have to reread and see if something doesn't grab me

Why? While newbie townies often make very blatant mistakes that are usually more salient than scum mistakes whose to say that some of the play here that can be attributed to newbieness isn't newbie scum

[Mirth]

No one? Where did that come from?

[Mirth]

Ah. That part was rhetorical.

[Mirth]

(Why didn't anyone call on me to answer my own question?)

I personally assumed you were waiting for our answers to base your own one.

If you assumed this, then you should have called me on it right away. (I didn't for the record.) If you think someone is forming opinions based on someone elses with no justifications of their own, call them on it! Sheepiness is baaaaad ^_^ (its 2 in the morning...im going to sleep)

[Mirth]

Sheepiness is baaaaad ^_^

Why must you hurt me in this way?

Because it was around 2 in the morning?

Nahraza, I said "if" didn't say you think that, asked if you do. You still did not answer. If there are people who you dont think are scum, then who do you not not think is scum?

[Mirth]

Yay! Replacement! I'll respond to stuff soon. I just got home, am very tired, and might not have a chance to be on tomorrow. If I'm not on tomorrow will definitely be on Thurs.

[Mirth]

Back now. Mmm concert headache ^_^

Replacing TSQ? I would not want to replace a person who at one point was L-1. Then again, as a sign of good faith to farside22,

Unvote.

I only ask in return that you post something of substance. If you read the game to this point you will see that you are replacing someone that has done much to annoy the town, by not doing much at all. So post your thoughts on the game and provided it makes some sense and has logic and I will be satisfied.

The above post seems superficial. I do not like it.

Farside: Thank you for replacing, I did agree that Malex should be suspicious of me by virtue of the fact that he should be suspicious of everyone. I am included in the set of people called everyone. As to what I think of newbies: If they don't play, it could just be newbiness, but if they continue not to play after being asked direct and specific questions and attribute their nonplaying to laziness, then I'm much less likely to give a newbie leeway for not playing. (Nahraza is only a newbie to this site. She mentioned that she's played on another.) However the thing that most gets me is question dodging and useless answers. Didn't take issue with Batto because I was more interested in how Zeal would react to my criticism, not so much the issue of what number vote she was. (I however don't agree about attacking lurkers unless its really out of hand. Also Zeal was correct on calling me for my defense of TSQ. Again, I don't like lurker lynches unless theyre very bad lurkers and there is no one active who is scummier, but she was right in pointing out that I was defending him.

Isn't Scum pointing at each other early game considered to be a fairly standard tactic? I was specifically referring to Batto in 194. My gut feeling at the time was that Batto seemed to be more active when we started talking about TSQ. Since you're replacing, I think a lot of that is going out the window.

Not necessarily. Depends on the scum. Some will ignore each other, some will bus to distance, some will be friendly with each other. Depends on playstyle and how well they can fake being town. Depends on what metas they do or do not believe in. RVS is RVS. No necessary pattern in it.

I'd really wish you wouldn't have posted just yet, I would have like to see how everyone else would first react to there being a replacement. Mine is obv, as I still have my vote on you.

Why would I want to wait when most people are voting for TSQ for lurking in the first place? What kind of sense are you making? Also even though it was obvious TSQ was picking up the prod and posting some Mod's will replace people they constantly have to prod as it is annoying and possibly disastrous for the game. I know some mods actually modkill inactive players but that is in more advance games where replacements were one too many.

Agreed with the first part.

Zeal: so when you voted for TSQ you were certain he was scum?

Avatar uploaded, I had to find it first (wasn't even sure I had an offline copy to upload). Now you get to pester Mirth about it :p

I don't do avatars. I had one for half of 541, but that was never meant to last.

Zeal: nvm just read your answer...do you think its better to get rid of someone whos not helpful than to look for someone actually hurting town?

My issue with people being all nice, nice to aggressive players is the first newbie game I played I saw someone doing that and they turned out to be scum. IGMEOY kristopf because so far I haven't got anything read wise off you.

Agreed. Don't be nice to anyone. Ever. Don't trust anyone unless your role condition specifically says so. I agree with the no read on Kris too.

[Mirth]

It seems superficial because because of the saying you wouldn't want to be in her shoes (no, replacing isn't fun). This is unnecessary and a sentiment probably shared by all. The other thing is that you say if she posts and is active, you won't have a problem with her (as it is obvious that that was the issue with TSQ). This is also unnecessary, so why was it posted?

[Mirth]

What would have been better? Depends. Sometimes I unvote out of courtesy for replacements to catch up, sometimes I don't. Depends on why I'm voting in the first place and what side I'm on and who the person I'm voting is. Notice how your unvote is a nonissue to me.

[Mirth]

I don't see anything wrong with it, apart from the bit that says "you are replacing someone that has done much to annoy

the town

" because it would make more sense to say "you are replacing someone that has done much to annoy

us

"

I will disagree with you here, but this may just be my personal pet peeve. I will not qualify this statement as of yet, however. If the issue I am referring to arises, I will explain it. If not, I'll explain it after the game.

I classify these as the same thing. Not being helpful

does

hurt the town.

More not help than hurt, really. This is a bit of a semantics debate though.

Don't be nice to anyone. Ever.

You smell bad. There, happy now?

Sure.

[Mirth]

For clarification, when I write or refer to "the town" I am referring to everyone in that resides in the Town. If that is not the appropriate vernacular, then I would be willing to change my language to avoid confusion.

Nothing wrong with it, just curious why so interested in vernacular. (I think I'm starting to see darside's point, not sure how much I agree with it yet)

[Mirth]

however reading the game it seemed 3 of the votes were to put pressure on TSQ for lurking not for being scummy.

This is true. (In that it was mostly to get him to talk, I believe)

Question for you, since you had a chance to get ideas on all of us from backlog, but you're still a new variable yourself, what do you think the best course of action would have been with TSQ?

[Mirth]

TSQ doesn't strike me as the lurky type, actually. At least he didnt lurk in 509. I dont know how he is in newbie games, but lurking seemed out of character for him. Don't know if its busy or disinterested. Don't know really believe in using metas either, so I'm keeping TSQ at null value in my estimation.

[Mirth]

Oh, yeah

unvote:zeal

. No reason to keep it there.

[Mirth]

You didn't answer all my questions though. Would it have been better or worse if I did not explain my thinking at all and just unvoted? Or should I have kept farside22 at L-2 with my biggest reason disappearing?

If that is not the appropriate vernacular, then I would be willing to change my language to avoid confusion.

Why are you so eager to change your language and get approval for the things you do in this game? It is seeming more and more to me like you're trying to divert attention away from yourself. Only scum need to avoid the spotlight.

Why do you point out things that have already been pointed out? Trying to get brownie points?

[Mirth]

vote:Gremwell

This is craplogic. One vote is not a wagon, and piling on a second to someone who Batto has said before is on the top of his suspicion list when being faced with deadline isn't really telling of alignment either way.

You are at 3 votes now. What do you have to say for yourself. (I ask that if anyone else feels like voting Grem, that they please hold off for a while)

[Mirth]

Yes, I have just turned it into a wagon. For more reasons than one.

Mod: has Nahraza picked up her prod?

[Mirth]

Kristopf, I'd like to hear more from you before deadline.

[Mirth]

What do I have to say for myself. . . Hm, well I do better when I don't say anything at all,

I'm just wondering how scummy am I? is it so apparent that if I'm lynched and it comes up town people's minds will be blown?

as has been stated before there is no one, right now who I would vote for that I would be surprised if they ended up townie.

I guess I'd like to see the case against me

This sounds like an emotional defense. "don't lynch me because I might be town." Do you think this is a valid defense?

[Mirth]

I'm voting you because:
a)It's less than a week to deadline and it's between you and Nahraza. Nahraza hurts my head, but I think you're scummier. Why? See below. (actually there's a third way my vote can swing. I won't comment on this though, yet. I'm waiting for something.)
b) Saying Nahr was a candidate for day 1 lynch for being bored. (better to get her to play or ask to be replaced by someone who isnt)
c) Asking how many scum there are in the game. (Right there in the rules)
d)Giving reasons for why your post was scummy when asked (this bothers me...if you can pick them out yourself even if they weren't exactly my reasons.)
e) cop speculation
f) the tunnelvisioned obsession with TSQ
g) the vote unvote revote when questioned by me (this is a very very weak reason for me. I've seen newbie town do this...heck, I've taken advantage of it. Sly did this in 541 on the first page...Sly was a good mason partner...so trusting ^_^ anyway...enough reminiscing)
h) what seems like an OMGUS vote on Battou.
i) I wanted a reaction and you kind of failed that with the "don't lynch me I could be town" thing.

Now then, you've also made some great posts, especially picking up my defense of TSQ. And I'm not actually entirely happy with a lynch of you yet, to be honest...especially with an AWOL player...so...

Mod: can we get a deadline extension? Pretty please with sugar on top?

[Mirth]

Could you please explain e)cop speculation for me? I don't understand what you mean

As for Malex I said I regarded everyone with suspicion. which may sound like a cop out but he hasn't said anything to out himself in my mind. and he seems to be participating at a good level

I just don't like it when powerroles are discussed without necessity. Sounds like fishing.

Hi Flay!

[Mirth]

Oh! Remind me not to read this game when I'm sleep deprived...(oh wait...rather, don't...I'm always sleep deprived...)

[Mirth]

Batto, where do you stand on everyone else?

[Mirth]

So you're sure about lynching Grem? What are your thoughts on Nahraza, Merc, and Malex?

[Mirth]

Batto, care to respond to either me or Grem?

[Mirth]

Because I have no opinion on you yet. I have an opinion, however slight, on everyone else. Want to see how Batto's impressions might differ from mine.

[Mirth]

One thing, rules say there will be no deadline lynch unless its a real majority like in a non-deadline lynch.

I'm at the moment thinking of moving my vote back to Nahr. Her play has bothered me immensely, what with the question dodging and such, but mostly I don't want to go into right with the mod looking for replacements, or a replacement that just arrived and we did not yet get a read on. Normally, I'd be willing to wait, but Nahr has been scummy enough in her own right, and I'm really not liking the interaction between Grem and Batto at the moment. I'm thinking one of them is most likely scum, and I'm not so sure anymore it's Grem...I'd like to see it play out more. I think I will move my vote now.

unvote:Grem
vote:Nahraza

[Mirth]

I never explained why TSQ was scum? I think you mean TSQ never explained why I was scum. My "TSQ is obviously scum" vote was a joke. If I thought he was scum, why would I have been defending him? Do you have any other comments? Opinions on players?

More cute cat pictures?

Anything?

My vote on you was because I didn't want to go into night with a scummy silent player. Now my vote is staying because our vote seems contrived.

[Mirth]

Batto, I don't think you're scum and thus Grem is town. I'm not sure enough that Grem is scum now to keep voting him, and I'm not suspicious of you enough to vote you. But there's something about your interaction that bothers me, not sure what yet, but I'm not liking it. Bussing and being misguided are both possible though.

[Mirth]

What changed my mind? The not entering gracefully comment for a few pages back. For some reason it was just gnawing at me. I'm not sure if I'm ready for a Grem lynch because I'm much more interested in how Batto reacts...(the 92% thing didn't help much either. I, for instance, am nowhere near that sure.)

[Mirth]

I asked Nahraza for a list of who she thought was townie because she obviously was not listing suspects. Thought I could get her suspects through process of elimination. It didn't work. As for misreading, well, a lot more of that will probably be happening, considering the insomnia seems to be here to stay for a while.

Just an interesting fact. Mega is posting in other threads (GD) since his last post but has yet to respond to me here. I'm normally not a fan of meta, but I would much rather prefer a Mega lynch at this point, and this strengthens that a tad.

[Mirth]

Yes. I would prefer a lynch of Mega, but will move back to Grem if it means avoiding a no-lynch though I'm not as sure about him anymore.

[Mirth]

How does this makes him seem more scummy?

That bothers me because he should know this game is deadlined and since he is a replacement we have zero to no read on him. He should also know (since he read the game) that we haven't exactly decided on a lynch and could face a no-lynch if we dont get five votes somewhere before tomorrow. And he is clearly on this site, so the question is why not post in this thread. No then, this is usually not something I pay much attention to, but it's been bothering me.

For me, it's Grem, Mega or farside22. I doubt I'd be able to bully people into the last one at this late hour, so I guess it'd be Grem or Mega and see what happens "tomorrow" (as in Day 2).

Like zeal, I'm also starting to lean towards Mega. The reasoning for voting Mirth at this late stage is flimsier than the tape holding the PSU to the case in my avatar

Why are you still suspicious of farside? Why do you think farside might be the best lynch?

[Mirth]

Hint: Mirth is mean to everyone Day 1.

Actually, you stated your main beef with me is that I voted TSQ without explaining it. Which is it? Also, care to answer my previous questions?

Post more cat pictures?

[Mirth]

What do you purpose to do for deadline then, seeing as it is tomorrow?

[Mirth]

That does not answer my question. Do you think a wagon on me is viable for a lynch in the next less than 24 hours?

[Mirth]

That does not answer my question. Do you think a wagon on me is viable for a lynch in the next less than 24 hours?

No I don't.
But then again; I'm not in for a "quick Lynch" to appease the masses.
If possible, my aim will be two(=2) lynches; Just the scum and no townies "dancin' the rope".

Sure; That doesn't make the game any faster, but it'd be more to my liking.

Except that this isn't about getting a quicklynch, as it is page 15. If it were, we wouldn't be deadlined. This is about getting a reasonably educatedly guessed lynch in before we're stuck with a default no-lynch and less information for tomorrow.

[Mirth]

For me, it's Grem, Mega or farside22. I doubt I'd be able to bully people into the last one at this late hour, so I guess it'd be Grem or Mega and see what happens "tomorrow" (as in Day 2).

Like zeal, I'm also starting to lean towards Mega. The reasoning for voting Mirth at this late stage is flimsier than the tape holding the PSU to the case in my avatar

Why are you still suspicious of farside? Why do you think farside might be the best lynch?

What is nagging me about farside22 is that he was quick to pick up on contradictions from other people, but when asked about what he felt about TSQ's play he doesn't refer to TSQ's contradictions at all. Granted, it's not up to us to ask farside22 to read TSQ's mind, but that doesn't mean it doesn't nag at me in the back of my head.

I don't think farside22 would be the

best

lynch, he's just on the list of people I would lynch at this stage. It'd take some major fast-talking for me to vote someone not on that list today.

Farside is a she. And TSQ's posts aren't so much contradictory as random. I don't see anything caseworthy in what TSQ did except repeatedly ignore the game. Why do you feel the need to remind us about TSQ?

Grem: that is one of my reasons on switching to Nahraza. Mega's entry has been very odd to put it lightly.

[Mirth]

As much as I love cats, I think cat macros are the thing of the devil.

[Mirth]

We are now almost at deadline and probably facing a no lynch. Sigh.

[Mirth]

I have nothing more to say really, other than I agree with you that it doesn't really feel like Kristopf is participating. It also sounds like Merc is ready to go along with majority, which I'm not really a fan of. And I would like to hear more from Malex, but we just don't have the time.

[Mirth]

Hmm. That is not good.

vote: Battousai

[Mirth]

What am I supposed to discuss. Cop is dead, mislynch yesterday of a suspicious acting townie.

I will explain my vote. But I want to know why you think I'm voting you.

[Mirth]

No, I'd really like to know what you think of me voting you. I'd also like to hear everyone else's comments on my vote on you. Then I'll give you an answer to all of the above.

[Mirth]

I'll tell you my reasoning later and you could decide for yourself if I'm just stealing ideas or whatever. But I'd really like to hear what you have to say about it. And also Merc and Malex, especially

[Mirth]

Don't worry, Malex, you're only speaking for yourself there. His saying "that's the hammer vote" have nothing to do with it.

Do you think I'm justified in voting Batto? Am I being too hasty in putting down a vote day 2? Should I comment more on the dead?

[Mirth]

I don't think there's much harm in voting straight off the bat. It's a bit like RVS on day 1 - cases will need to be made before you're going to get significant votage going one way or the other.

Why are you asking Malex and myself specifically, Mirth? Are you looking to gather support for a quick lynch on Batt, do not pass day 2, do not collect 200 posts? Frankly I'm a bit surprised that you weren't killed in the night yourself.

unvote:Battousai
vote:Merdaemon

That is why I was voting him. I wanted to see which one of you two would bite the bait. Congratulations.

[Mirth]

Nice OMGUS vote there.

[Mirth]

Mirth, I don't really understand the reasoning behind your vote on merc, could you explain for me?

Also we've skipped right past the two vital pieces of information we've just been given and gone straight onto another subject.

I'm kinda suspicious of Mirth, because as merc pointed out, she's not dead. She's been leading the game so far, and I had assumed she would be the nightkill target. Seems to me like she tried to draw attention away from this with her voting of Batto/merc.

Just a bit of warning,

I will be V/LA for 11 days from the 25th of July.

I'm voting Merc because he was the first one to mention that I should have been the nightkill target and that I'm possibly trying to get an early lynch on Batto, but he didn't directly come out and say I was scum in that post. I'm going to wait until Kristopf gets here and Batto actually comments before I reveal my other reason for voting Batto.

[Mirth]

I have no quotes to pull up against you, Batto. I will say no more until Kristopf gets here. But I do have something to say.

[Mirth]

I just hope he posts soon so I could share my second reason.

[Mirth]

Why do you need Kristopf to post so you can give your second reason? Are you saying if he does not post and ultimately gets replaced, we will never hear your reasoning. You have a habit of saying I will explain my reason if someone guesses it correctly, or if something else happens. Why are your explanations always contingent on something?

I want a reaction from him so that when I post my reason, he won't be able to switch his reaction based on it. (I can guarantee you that he *won't* guess it.) I don't care if he gets replaced. I want a reaction to me still being alive/voting Batto off the bat, even if it comes from a replacement. (Would be easier with him though.) My explanations are contingent on stuff because if I explain everything, your reactions change. I'm trying to get a raw reaction whenever I can. I always explain myself eventually, but I prefer to get as much out of it while I can. Right now, y'all know I'm reaction fishing, but you don't know why. This gives me the upper hand until I throw the rest of my cards on the table, which I will do.

[Mirth]

I want a reaction from him so that when I post my reason, he won't be able to switch his reaction based on it. (I can guarantee you that he *won't* guess it.) I don't care if he gets replaced. I want a reaction to me still being alive/voting Batto off the bat, even if it comes from a replacement.

It seems to me like you are just setting a trap. I have a feeling that this will change Kristopf's response from what it would usually be.

This gives me the upper hand until I throw the rest of my cards on the table, which I will do.

The question is, do we want you with the upper hand?

Even if his response changes, it would change in a manner that will be able to predict what I'm going to say. As to whether you want me with an upper hand, well, you'll see.

[Mirth]

I don't think it was a defensive killing, but I don't think they thought she was a cop either. I think it was a case of getting rid of a wildcard IC.

[Mirth]

Killing off the ICs could also be a strategy in use here. I just noticed I spelled throw incorrectly in my last post. I feel bad now.

Which of course begs the obvious question of why you and me are both still alive.

[Mirth]

Mod: Has Kristoph picked up the prod or are you looking for a replacement?

I

think

that Mirth is refering to why Farside was killed over me and her. If I was newb scum I would have killed Mirth first, unless she was my partner, and then probably Farside, as a Battousai lynch would probably be easier than a Farside at that point.

Why would you have killed me first if you were scum?

[Mirth]

I think that Mirth is refering to why Farside was killed over me and her. If I was newb scum I would have killed Mirth first, unless she was my partner

Perhaps they were wary of the possibility of a doctor?

I can tell you they were quite weary of the possibility of a doctor. Smart scum always are.

As I could not find any tells, the only way they would have known there to be a doctor or a cop is if there are two goons and no roleblocker.

This is not taking into account the 50% chance of both if they had a roleblocker. I think you should know better to ignore that.

[Mirth]

If they had a roleblocker, then they wouldn't know for sure if there was a town power role. That is why I did not include it.

But they'd darn sure be considering it and act as if there were two of them just in case. Or do you not agree with me here?

[Mirth]

That is a possibility, better safe than sorry.

What is? I'm not too sure we're talking about the same thing now.

[Mirth]

It's a possibility that the scum have a RB and decided to randomly try to hit a power role as it is "better safe than sorry"

Not a possibility, a certainty. If you have an RB and you're scum, there is absolutely no reason not to use it. (Unless you're Thesp and you forget that *you're* the scum RB...but we won that game anyway, so it didn't matter)

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I meant randomly hunt and KILL the power role. Of course the RB would use their power.

Activity has been dwindling, I would like more people to contribute. The convo me and Mirth is having isn't really scumhunting, so I think it's best we move on from that. I'm going to go and look back at D1 again.

Actually, the discussion we're having is rather pertinent, seeing as the scum got very lucky last night.

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I meant the fact of RB using their ability or whether or not there is a RB, that's extraneous.

I'm through playing head games with you all, and kind of sick of waiting. Replacement will have the upper hand anyway since I think I've breadcrumbed obviously enough for the scum to pick up on it already.

I know for a fact that there is an RB, so it's not extraneous.

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Obviously. There are only 2 ways for me to know if there's a roleblocker in this game: be scum or be roleblocked. Now if I were scum I wouldn't very well admit to that, now would I? (Of course you can WIFOM it all you want and say that I'm scum fake claiming a nonexistent powerrole because I know no one could counterclaim me, and that there really isn't a roleblocker, but I know better.)

I'm the doctor. I protected Farside last night for being one of the least suspicious people here. I was functioning under the assumption that I'd be dead today, so my protect wouldn't really matter. The mod confirmed that he received my choice. Yet Farside is dead. There is only one obvious conclusion I can draw from this.

Normally, I think claiming is bad evil awful, but in this case, I was already targeted by scum once, so I don't think they'd hesitate to target me again, and I obviously can't self protect, and can be roleblocked. There is also no cop for me to try and defend. So my role is more useful exposed here, I think.

Why I voted Batto: for being the only IC not targeted by scum last night. This is pure WIFOM, of course, but I don't see why scum chose to kill Farside over him. I also wanted to see how he'd react. Barring negative reaction from Kristopf's replacement, I do believe Batto and Merc are scum.

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Why believe me so easily? I could just as well be scum, know there is no roleblocker, and claim doc because the only real town powerrole was killed.

Actually, now that I've claimed, I'm not 100% sure I will be killed, as scum could always try accusing me of the above gambit. In this case claiming didn't hurt anyone, as scum knew more about setup than town.

I don't like that you are ready to lynch Batto so quickly, especially with one player missing. If Batto/merc isn't scum, then keep playing as usual. As I said, this is just my theory. I think you should get your own and not be so quick to agree with me or believe me.

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I never said I don't want people to agree with them. I'm just a bit distressed at how easily you seem to.

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Grem, your post says a whole lots of nothing. Farside, like a good player, was suspicious of everyone. You should be too. Also, just because Farside was suspicious of people it doesn't automatically make her right now that she's dead. As for scum among the IC, its statistically more likely that there isn't, as there are more newbies in a game.

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Or I could be simply pointing out the exact line of argument you're be using to get me lynched. Especially if Zeal is just goin to convienantly follow along with what I'm saying. Just because I think you are scum with Merc doesn't mean I should stop looking.

As for you being alive, well, as I said, it is very very poor reasoning. But voting you was also fishing. I think Malex reacted well. I think Grem also reacted well. I think you're overestimating my influence on the newbies, considering how gungho most were about getting rid of TSQ for "lurking". I was waiting, thinking Kristopf's replacement would give me some information, but then I realized, no matter what, it would have been a null tell as I would have claimed a couple posts thereafter (as I would have been pressured fr my reasoning, since I was waiting a bit to do it anyway), and could just as easily chalk stuff up to "my predecessor was bad." As for it's a bad move for me to claim, no, not it isn't. My role's primary purpose is to play follow the cop. The secondary purpose is to prevent night kills. Both of these have been nullified, as the cop is dead, and I am going to be targeted again with either a roleblock or a kill, as the scum clearly want me out of the way, if they thought enough to roleblock me to roleblock me the first night even if it was blind. Y'all wanted to discuss why I'm still alive, well, y'all got your discussion.

As for me introducing WIFOM to whether I'll live tonight or not, well, I'm just doing that before you could. See above reasoning on how there's a 50% chance I'm scum.

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Odd vote there Batto. No comments on me and no intermittent post from Zeal. Explain why you changed your mind about the FOS?

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Fair enough. I'd like to hear what Merc and Malex think of my claim.

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I have, but I have no usefullness since the scum are playing the "get rid of the nonscum ICs" game. I think Merc is still scum, btw.

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Why believe me so easily? I could just as well be scum, know there is no roleblocker, and claim doc because the only real town powerrole was killed.

When you say things like this right after role claiming it makes me concerned. It is entirely possible that you are trying to pull the wool over our eyes. I quite frankly don't know what to believe. Also, for someone who kept saying how you wanted to have to upper hand for as long as possible, was this really the appropriate time to put all of your cards on the table? Or could it be another way to keep the upper hand?

Completely possible, yes. But I pretty much needed to claim. Though I must say, if I were smart scum who knew there was no doctor, I'd have waited a bit closer to endgame to avoid the WIFOM for surviving.

[Mirth]

Let's see, there could be a chance Mirth is scum (thus I would have been roleblocked and then Farside killed. Or it could be the fact that NONE of the IC's were scum, thus they could only effect 2 of the 3 of us. What your saying is that YOU thought FARSIDE was scummier than I was, thus Farside should have been kept alive instead of myself.

I don't like your statement. You think I'm scummy, because I'm alive and not Farside.

Except that there is no chance of that and you gain scum points for even suggesting it. If I am scum, then there is no doctor, thus there is also no roleblocker, thus you could not have been roleblocked. And you should know that.

[Mirth]

Except that there is no chance of that and you gain scum points for even suggesting it. If I am scum, then there is no doctor, thus there is also no roleblocker, thus you could not have been roleblocked. And you should know that.

If you are scum, you could be partnered with a roleblocker and would know that you are. I haven't seen anything in the play that would remove that possibility.

The "strategy" of "killing off ICs" was suggested by Batt back in post 410. If we're to go with your version of events do you believe that scum-Batt would have brought this up?

If I was scum and my partner was the roleblocker, then I couldn't claim doctor. Because we have a cop. That means there is either only the cop *or* both the doctor and the roleblocker too. If I was scum then there'd be a real doctor around to counterclaim me. None of you have so far and Kristopfs replacement wont, I can assure you. (If he does, lynch us both, doctor for scum is a good trade)

Batto, I got what you were saying, but how you made your point bothers me. Your specific example. You don't get scum points for suggesting that I'm scum, you get scum points for suggesting you were roleblocked, because if I'm lying, there would be no roleblocker.

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I don't like how Zeal doesn't have an opinion of her own right now (said so after she decided to appropriate mine). I don't really suspect her much, but I'm totally *not* liking her parroting.

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Zeal, I realize this is pure WIFOM, do you?

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No FOS at Merc?

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Why are you only appearing after he FOSed you?

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Grem, I dont like how you're assuming Batto is the lynch for today. Do you think he will be? Why?

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Pretty much. I don't think Batto is "trying to throw Zeal under a bus" as you put it considering how easily she was agreeing with me. And I do think Merc is scum, but I've already said so.

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Actually Merc, the "my night is different" thing doesn't work. Since you'll make a couple of posts one day, not post for 3 or so days, and the make another couple of posts. This does not bother me. What bothers me is you feeling the need to justify this with anything more than a "I have a life"

[Mirth]

Batto, then why not frame you with Grem?

Why I think Merc is scummy:
post 2 he says that maybe TSQ picked up on something with me. Game barely started. Nothing to pick up on. This rings false. (as does the thinking I'm dangerous part)
6: starting the TSQ attack
11: sounds like trying to sit on both sides of the fence in regards to TSQ
12: suggests TSQ has a strategy
14, 16: tries to connect Batto to TSQ (this connection doesn't really exist as I was defending him a lot more)
18: afraid id call him on parroting again
23: continues to think Farside is scum without any real reason
28: suggests i'm scum in a very subtle manner. (the subtlety here is what bothers me, because it appears to leave room for backtracking.)

[Mirth]

Zeal, Merc, if you go down to the bottom of the thread there's a button that says "show posts by" you can select to only show one player's posts. I did that with Merc's posts. That is what those numbers mean.

Merc, I read your link and I don't see your reasoning. Unhelpful IC =/= scummy IC. In my very first game on this site, one of the ICs was not particularly helpful, not posting much content, and not there most of the time. The other was constantly posting, being helpful, thought-provoking, etc. One of them was mislynched and the other one the game as scum. Which was which? The lurker was a mislynched townie and the helpful one won single-handedly after sacrificing his rather useless newbie partner day 1. Just a story I thought I'd share.

[Mirth]

I've seen lurkers turn out to be scum too, yes. It's a complete null tell though. It would bother me but it would also depend on what else you were doing in game.

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He didn't get me to role claim. I was going to role claim at some point without the argument. Just moved my claim up a bit.

Hint: Never do a reread thinking someone is definately scum. Try to do it neutrally. Otherwise you will miss stuff.

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I think he left out Kristopf/replacement, if he's going to FOS three of you for not posting for a day, then why not FOS the empty chair for Kristopf running off entirely?

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So, Batto, now that Malex, at least, is posting consistently, what do you think?

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Hey Zeal, you've been quiet for a bit. What do you think of the current Batto/Malex interaction?

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Because I'm more convinced about Merc. My case on Batto is mostly WIFOM and I realize this.

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Mod: mass proddage please?

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Merc, my going after you has nothing to do with Farside flipping cop, actually. It has to do with the way you went after TSQ/Farside.

And I missed Batto throwing my own question back at me, actually. Their interaction makes me think that they're not a scum pair.

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Why do you see a Malex/Zeal pair. I think that's the most unlikely combination possible.

[Mirth]

I think Malex is town. But I suppose this means I need to do another reread to reexamine why I think Malex/Zeal are an unlikely scumpair, because I just dont see anything there. (I see and understand your case on Zeal, I can understand why you could suspect Malex, but I'm not seeing connections.)

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I only believe in lynching the empty chair if the empty chair is the scummiest person around without a doubt but would much much rather wait for a replacement. And I don't think either Zeal nor AK qualify as "scummiest around without a doubt"

[Mirth]

Explain your unvote please?

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Grem, maybe. I don't know. Because my case on Batto is weak. If he did something to raise my suspicion further, maybe. Right now, probably not. I would prefer a Merc lynch if this is all we have to go on at this moment.

Also, I said I'd be doing a reread, but I'm having some eye problems at the moment. Working on the computer is putting some strain on my eyes, so I'm going to hold off on rereading a bit until the pain goes away. (Will still try to post a lot, since that doesnt involve reading huge walls of text, but I'm going to hold off on a reread until it becomes absolutely necessary or I can get to an eye doctor, whichever comes first.)

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And again, I didn't really see a loss there since I was queued up to be rendered useless anyway. ~shrug~

Malex: what do you think of Zeal? What do you think of Merc? What do you think of Grem?

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CR: i'm not sure I understand your whole post, but I have to say your accusations about people following me are off. I have spent the whole game saying not to do so. You cannot blame me for something I have been actively discouraging.

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If deadline were 2 days away, and there were no votes yet, who would I vote for? Probably Merc.

I'd like to hear Clockwork's answer to this question.

[Mirth]

Merc, what do you think of Clockwork, Zeal, Malex, and Batto?

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I thought I explained it but let me try again. Instead of going right out and saying "i'm suspicious of you because you survived," Merc did it in a sort of wishy washy subtle manner in the original post, hinting he thought so without really saying it. Now then, 3 people know that my roleclaim is true. Me, and the 2 scum. Before I made my roleclaim, 3 people who why I survived, me and the 2 scum. 2 of those people would attempt to use that as an excuse to cast suspicion on me, but if all of a sudden out of the blue they were to do that, it wouldn't catch. (At least not at that point right before my claim.) What bothered me was not that Merc suspected me, but that he didn't commit to it until after I voted him. Instead of trying to pressure me or really pursue the matter, he made a wishywashy statement that could easily be retracted later if I didn't dig my own grave far enough.

[Mirth]

Zeal is more up there in thoughtlessness and not playingness for me, actually. I don't like how she doesnt have an opinion of her own. I don't like it a lot. But I don't think this is enough to merit a lynch.

[Mirth]

She doesn't do the same thing as Merc. Merc didn't really *commit* to an opinion, but he seems to be thinking on his own. Zeal didn't *form* an opinion, and doesn't seem to be thinking on her own at all. One is being wishy washy the other is just being kind of limp.

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Clockwork, you're obviously not reading my argument. Its not that Merc was suspicious of me, its that he originally did not commit to it one way or the other. Zeal commits to opinions, they just aren't her own opinions. I find her more newbie than scummy for this.

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I already put forth my argument, see the PBP of Merc. I don't particularly care if you don't buy it, just that you realize that there *is* a difference between Merc and Zeal.

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Merc - I've already explained this

Clockwork - seems to be defending Merc by attacking me. Don't really see his tunnelvision on me as particularly scummy, but it feels like hes writing Merc off as town.

Batto - this is a very very weak case and my vote would not be going here today. I was thinking Merc/Batto, but now I'm thinking Merc/CR...

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CR, you aren't. You're focusing on how I have no case and how you think I'm fake claiming.

You don't want to be responsible for the lynch of a townie but you're willing to lynch me despite the lack of a counterclaim? You say that last part like you're sure of my alignment. Only one way you could be.

unvote: Merc

vote: CR

When day started, I figure 2 of Merc, Batto, and Kristopf were scum. I still think I'm right.

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No, you said tou'd vote me if you didnt have another place to put your vote at the end. Only you're not actually looking for another place to put your vote and not building any cases of your own. Yes, we went over it, since I'm the one who brought it up. I was neutered as it was, so it didn't matter this way or that.

[Mirth]

Then please, build.

Let me try this again. Scum did not know I was the doctor but they decided that I was visibly pro-town enough to target. They blocked me. Which means they wanted me out of the way but were scared that I might have been protected were there a doctor. Which means that, assuming my play is the same and I don't do anything to get myself into trouble with the town to make me a lynch candidate, I'm also a target for the upcoming night. Regardless of how they would be targetting me, I'd still be useless. With the cop out of the way now, they'd be blocking/killing the two most likely to be town players. So even if they did not know I was the doctor, they would still block or kill me just in case, to be on the safe side. So I'm rendered ineffective by not being scummy enough to try a lynch on.

[Mirth]

Noooooo you don't seem to get it. It doesn't matter if they think I'm the doctor to roleblock me, only that I'm town enough to be a threat. Which is what happened last night. I'm rendered useless by either a roleblock or a kill. They, if they didn't know who the doctor was, would simply target the two most protown players in the night. Since I was blocked once I know what they think me pro-town enough to target. Therefore if they didn't think I was the doctor and targeted someone else to kill (like they did last night), they would still roleblock me just in case I was to be on the safeside. This is what would render me useless.

[Mirth]

Why only newbie scum?

[Mirth]

As long as you understand me, I don't care if you agree.

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I never said they tried to frame me last night.

And roleblocking a possible doctor target is just a smart scum move regardless of who is scum.

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My argument was that it could be used to cast suspicion on me. Can't be framed as there isn't anything particularly damning, but used to cast suspicion on me, definitely. (This would however be the scum's secondary reason, not the primary.) My argument against Merc is that he was trying to cast suspicion without committing to it.

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Yes. If you haven't noticed by now I'm all about the minute distinctions

[Mirth]

mod: any chance yu can push the deadline back a bit until we're at full capacity? Pretty please?

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Im more interested in why Grem thinks that his vote might be superfluous.

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@Mirth; [quote="Merc"I'll stand by what I wrote, for better or worse. Mirth, you appeared to be the most honest scumhunter in day 1. To me, that makes you a target for Mafia in the night. You didn't die? That means something to my opinion of the game. If it makes me scummy to say it then so be it.[/quot]

This is a wishy-washy statement?

I was refering to this:

Why are you asking Malex and myself specifically, Mirth? Are you looking to gather support for a quick lynch on Batt, do not pass day 2, do not collect 200 posts? Frankly I'm a bit surprised that you weren't killed in the night yourself.

He said he was surprised but didn't take a stance on it.

Speaking of opportunistic voting, nice use of it here, CR. Very nice. I think my vote will be staying here and rotting? Why? The complete 180 when it starts looking like you might be on the chopping block instead of Merc.

Batto: actually I was voting Mega because of Nahraza too. Nahraza left a scummy aftertaste what with the question dodging and all.

CR: no, that's what you get for opportunism.

[Mirth]

Sigh. I'm getting sick of asking for deadline extensions in all my games, so someone else can beg just this once.

CR no commentary on me calling you oppurtunistic?

[Mirth]

It's not just 2 possible cases. If you noticed, it was between 3. (You, Merc, and Zeal, pretty much.) But that doesn't mean you should just give up if you think someone else is scum. It means you have to try and convince us harder. ere it just seemed you switched to Merc after defending him for a while against me.

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It looks like we're going into a no-lynch situation as deadline is less than 4 hours away. Alas.

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Why is it a no-lynch situation? Doesn't the person with the most votes get killed at a deadline?

No. Read Mith's rules.

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Congrats, Zeal. I figured whoever the scum were were going to either keep blocking me or kill me, so outting myself might be a good thing. Didn't work out at well as I hoped, but oh well. And it was kind of obvious Malex was town, to me anyways.