Mini 624 - Game Over!

[StrangerCoug]

/confirm

[StrangerCoug]

Vote: maxwellhouse

I hate coffee.

[StrangerCoug]

Well, Maxwell House is a brand of coffee. That's why.

But still xD

[StrangerCoug]

Unvote

Vote Inspector Godot

because two wagons are better than one.

vote: Tom

Do either of you care to give decent explanations for your votes?

FoS: imaginality
Unvote: maxwellhouse
Vote: Litral

[StrangerCoug]

Unvote: Litral

, but the FoS on imaginality remains. Fishing for reactions should be kept to the random voting stage, but as early as this is it's not that bad, since we don't have much to go on yet. Be careful, though.

[StrangerCoug]

Disagree with Strangercoug, personally, about whether the fishing is worth an fos, the way Imaginality went about it isn't exactly ideal, but if fishing for reaction is something that's supposed to be kept only to random voting, then we were still there, a decent amount of votes (including those already on Godot) were the randoms, or appeared to be.

Personally, I think that looking for reactions is something that should be done up until we have something solid to look at, that doesn't necessarily make it mutually exclusive from the random stage.

The random voting stage, by my definition, ends about the time where we get some serious votes. My vote on Litral was serious as he gave zero explanation for his vote (as opposed to imaginality who actually tried, despite the faulty reasoning behind it).

I'm someone who believes in making only one random vote, but more than one random vote by the same person isn't the end of the world.

[StrangerCoug]

Tom's vote on Inspector Godot was clearly a joke. It was in the random voting stage, and just because someone was X in Game A does not mean he or she is also X in Game B.

Tom's fine for right now.

[StrangerCoug]

It was in the random voting stage, and just because someone was X in Game A does not mean he or she is also X in Game B.

Tom's fine for right now.

no, a player avoiding a game whilst posting elsewhere is nto ag odo sign. means they could be avoiding this one for a reason

I was referring to the joke vote and have yet to bring up anything about lurking.

IGMEOY: geraintm

for taking my post out of context.

[StrangerCoug]

no, you didn't mention the word lurking, but saying one player in in game a and not in game b sounds like lurking to me. sorry if i got mixed up though

Would it be clarified if I said that X stood for any role?

[StrangerCoug]

Un-IGMEOY: geraintm

, but be careful with that next time. Confusing yourself is not good.

[StrangerCoug]

agree with ken
lurking not good for town. though my thought is that lurkers often get too much of a free ride in newbie games and the more vocal get the most pressure put on them.
at worst, if you have nothing to say, should be able to find something others are talking baout to give your opinion

I largely agree with this. Being vocal is much better than lurking if you ask me. If you must resort to it, ask questions about what people think.

[StrangerCoug]

Pressure vote: chenhsi

[StrangerCoug]

You said this and did nothing in terms of serious business. I'm okay hopping on this wagon.

Oh, my bad. I wasn't aware there was anything serious going on.

Oblivion is not an excuse.

Unvote: chenhsi
Vote: Wumbo

[StrangerCoug]

The random voting stage is over, so from now on your posts should be of substance.

[StrangerCoug]

All right, Wumbo, you're now at L-1. Claim or die.

[StrangerCoug]

Hmmm. Looks like my death is coming up rather quickly. At any rate I hardly call an absurdly fast bandwagon "serious business" but we do need someone to lynch at the end of the day, I suppose.

If you don't think the bandwagon on you is serious business and you want to live past today, then stop posting nonsense. You're becoming less believable with every post you make.

Also at StrangerCoug: already claimed, Journey style...

Where is this?

[StrangerCoug]

OK, you're a vanilla townie. But if that's your claim, then you did it at L-5, which is way too early.

If you can adequately defend your vote on Tom at #69, then I'll consider unvoting you, but not before I see it.

[StrangerCoug]

What the tiger said. Why did you claim vanilla townie that soon, when only geraintm and I had voted you at that point?

The only thing remotely close to a tiger that I see is Tom. Read the last four letters of my username and guess what should come after it.

Don't worry; it's a pretty common mistake by people who don't know me well.

[StrangerCoug]

I dont have a clue what L-1 means??

Lynch minus one. That means that, unless somebody unvotes, the next vote on that person kills him or her.

[StrangerCoug]

Lynch minus one. That means that, unless somebody unvotes, the next vote on that person kills him or her.

Oh, always wondered what that meant. Well, I wasn't counting when I voted, my mistake.

I see its at l-1 again, and i'm not 100% sure wumbo is scum, i just wanted to rattle his cage abit, so

unvote

That was your reason for your vote in the first place!? xP

Unvote: Wumbo
Vote: Dark wingstalker

This puts Wumbo at L-4, by the way. He was at L-3 before this post.

[StrangerCoug]

Well, it was 7 to lynch, and i thought mine was the fifth vote. People were voting both Chenhsi and Wumbo, and I thought wumbo looked scummier. I didnt think he was scum, so I thought it would get him to talk more, without having to hang him.

Then i unvoted when i realised that a member of the mafia could hammer his bandwagon easily, Which they didnt do. So if/when you lynch me and i turn up clean, you should look at the people already on Wumbo's bandwagon.

I'd notch it up to forum inexperience, i'm used to play epic mafia, and irc mafia, where its alot easier to keep track of votes. I apolagise, I'll pay more attention in future.

The newbie card. Nice.

[StrangerCoug]

Agreed, and it's been too long in my opinion since I last posted.

I do feel your defending imaginality's case against you is in order, Dark wingstalker, if you're looking for something to talk about.

[StrangerCoug]

Um, hello, Dark wingstalker? Did you read my post #126? Litral did not put Wumbo back at L-1. His vote put him at only an L-3.

[StrangerCoug]

Dark wingstalker,

both

nhat (post 111)

and

geraintm (post 119) had unvoted Wumbo by then. Taking Wumbo down to L-3. Then Litral voted Wumbo (post 121) taking him back to L-2.

Not

to L-1. See my timeline in post 133.

Well, that too.

[StrangerCoug]

Okay, All up to date with the thread now. I apolagise for being a dumbass, making mistakes everywhere. I have no real reason, i'm just not paying enough attention i guess.

I will tell you from experience that paying attention decreases your odds of getting lynched. This is something I can't really discuss a lot, though.

I also sincerly promise to think before i post, And i withdraw my attack on Litral, as it was misguided. Reading the thread, even i admit the scummiest person here is me.

Be careful commenting about your own scumminess.

[StrangerCoug]

This is basically what happened, However, I was unawares what constituted "Claim or die", as where I usually play, on another forums, Claim or dies are being thrown around from about 3 to lynch. and when I was informed what L-1 was, it all clicked into place, and I unvoted.

wait, what? so you had no idea what "claim or die" meant, yet you accused wumbo of claiming so early? what?! that makes no sense. (i can't find the "claim or die" comment... i swear to god it was there before. where'd it go? =o )

I made the claim or die comment the post after Dark wingstalker put Wumbo at L-1. I also remember accusing Wumbo of claiming that early myself.

[StrangerCoug]

Mod: Please prod Inspector Godot.

[StrangerCoug]

Is it just me, or is anyone else not buying into Dark wingstalker's oafish antics? He's done jack for town with his meat-headed bumbling, cluttering up the thread with straight garbage. He should have zero excuse for not knowing the vote count, seeing that he has a finished game on this site, so claiming noob is utterly ludicrous. Plus you say that you have experience on other sites, too? You honestly should know better, and nobody wants to hold your hand through this, even though you have cats spoon-feeding you your slip-ups. Get on the ball, man.

Ouch. Burn!

I could already say from his posts that he was most likely scummy, but now I think my suspicions are as good as confirmed. I think we've hit the jackpot, ladies and gentlemen.

[StrangerCoug]

I'm not claiming noob, i'm just saying i'm new to the jargon around here, and i'm not massively experienced with forum mafia. Sure i've finished 4-5 games, but skimming over a vote is a mistake based on inexperience.i made ONE mistake.

You fail to realize the discussion that can pick up after somebody gets a good lead on somebody.

I gave wumbo twelve hours to defend himself [Check the post times, it was pretty much exact] and he didnt. I chucked a vote on to get him to talk alittle. I'm prone to skim-reading the less interesting mafia threads, and at the time of my post, the game had just left the random voting stage. Re-reading it, I see that you were the initial attacker on me aswell, Jumping to Wumbo's defence.

The more you pay attention, the less likely you will get lynched.

As geraintm said earlier in the thread, Mafia never hammer.

This is completely false. Mafia do indeed hammer, and geraintm didn't say (explicitly, anyway) that they never hammer. All I can find him saying about this matter is this:

Then i unvoted when i realised that a member of the mafia could hammer his bandwagon easily, Which they didnt do. So if/when you lynch me and i turn up clean, you should look at the people already on Wumbo's bandwagon.

hammering and mafia just dones't work anymore. just too obvious

Operative word: "anymore". Meaning he knows they have in the past.

I disagree with what geraintm has said here, though. I want both of you to go find a completed game where somebody claimed a power role at L-1, read the page or two after that point, and come back and tell me what you see and why you think you saw what you saw.

Interestingly, since i have re-read this thread, eager not to screw up again, I noticed the when you jumped onto wumbo's wagon, You had less reasoning then i did.

This has been brought into question before, and you dodged it with a line as everyone was too busy grilling me.

Where is this?

[StrangerCoug]

I didnt want to make an easy lynch. As geraintm said earlier in the thread, Mafia never hammer.

if that is how you interpreted it, then that is not what i meant. i meant to say that looking at who hammered to use that to catch scum is not a good way anymore to catch mafia. it is too well known for it to be any use

Heh. That means I misinterpreted you too. But I knew you didn't mean Mafia never hammers anybody, which is why I called Dark wingstalker out for misrepresenting you.

[StrangerCoug]

Thats not how I took it, I merely meant that no mafia would hammer the lynch on Day 1, because on day 2 they would be on the chopping block.

Sure, it happens but when it does it rarely ends well.

This contradicts your saying that Mafia never hammer. You're digging a deeper and deeper hole as you post, and you've gone deeper than Wumbo. I would do something about that if I were you.

[StrangerCoug]

How so? I said "mafia never hammer" in much the same way Geraint did. Mafia dont, Because its far too obvious a move. That doesnt mean it never happens, but on Day 1 the mafia would be stupid for pushing the hammer themselves, when they could just target a scapegoat.

geraintm clarified that going after whoever throws the hammer vote with the assumption that he or she is scum doesn't work. He is not saying that Mafia never throws down the hammer.

I'll consider unvoting you if you can tell me why you find nhat suspicious.

[StrangerCoug]

Certainly Wumbo's inaction after his serious business comment rubbed me the wrong way, and the bandwagon developed from there, but wingstalker, was it really called for to put him at L-1? I played in a game where a townie hammered himself just because, and that was wack. Why risk it? And the "I'm gonna give you 12 hours to respond" ultimatum is lousy for an L-1 vote. In my experience, people who do this can just say that the response was insufficient, knowing good and well that they've decided beforehand to vote for the person. We wanted pressure, you wanted to make an easy lynch.

I didnt want to make an easy lynch. As geraintm said earlier in the thread, Mafia never hammer. Interestingly, since i have re-read this thread, eager not to screw up again, I noticed the when you jumped onto wumbo's wagon, You had less reasoning then i did.

This has been brought into question before, and you dodged it with a line as everyone was too busy grilling me.

So he never answered.

Just calling it as I see it. The FoS was to get maxwellhouse talking, and my votes have explanations.

Explanations? No sir, the vote on me had an explaination, the others? well, Geraint sums it up well Here.

Your starting to look alittle shaky there nhat. You've lurked except for when you've been directly attacking someone. You've done less for the town then I have, Not that thats much of an arguement, as its barely 4 pages out of the random voting stage.

That was from higher on the page.

To summarise: I find Nhat suspicious because, His only posts early in the game were decisive attacks on players, then when he saw he had an advantage with me, He pressed the attack and is tearing into me. His initial 2 votes had very little explaination to them, and frankly, I just find him suspicious, in my gut. FOS's Chenshi, chenshi mainly for the way he is dodging questions recently, and wumbo, now the pressure is off him, he has retreated back to a semi-lurk, coming forth to defend himself when you utter his name.

Very well then,

unvote: Dark wingstalker

and

vote: Nhat

until he explains this.

[StrangerCoug]

The explanation why I'm not voting DWS and is happy with voting Mr. Chen is because I find it far more useful, in the long run, to lynch someone who will not participate, since they'll have to be lynched at some point anyway, and relatively, lynching DWS will deny us information. The other reason is that the entire case seems to be a matter of technicality - while DWS did seem to misinterpret and misspeak at times, those misinterpretations are not meant to be malicious or anti-town, and to me, not intentional.

Pressure voting a lurker is fine. Lynching a lurker is not.

Unvote: nhat
Vote: Litral

[StrangerCoug]

You hope to give pressure without the threat of lynching?

There's a difference, Litral. If we went after every single lurker and lynched them, scum would win.

[StrangerCoug]

You hope to give pressure without the threat of lynching?

There's a difference, Litral. If we went after every single lurker and lynched them, scum would win.

And there's a huge difference between what you're saying my strategy is and what my strategy really is.

Explain then.

[StrangerCoug]

OK, I feel Litral has defended himself within reason, so I'll

unvote

him.

[StrangerCoug]

Do you believe you are currently helping the town to find the scum? If so, how?

Probably not... although I will say something if I can find something to comment on...

Oh come the heck on. Nine pages worth of information and you don't have anything to say about diddly squat?

Out of the players who've come under attack so far (most notably Wumbo and Dark wingstalker), who do you find most suspicious? And why?

No idea, they look the same to me.

They're somewhat related, but they're not the same to me. The case on Wumbo was that he said he was going into "serious business" and later claimed he "wasn't aware there was anything serious going on." Dark wingstalker, on the other hand, gave a very weak reason for putting Wumbo at L-1 (the lack of a decent defense on his part) and then tried to defend himself with the newbie card. They're both guilty of carelessness, but Dark wingstalker's carelessness almost got Wumbo killed. Wumbo has not bandwagoned anybody to a dangerous point. Therefore, why I think they're different.

Has anything else anyone has said struck you as odd, questionable, or worth commenting on?

Not really, I'll look again and see if I can find anything else though.

*stares at the first question and its answer and hums the Jeopardy! theme impatiently*

What would the chances of a town win be if we all adopted your playing style?

I didn't consider this mean (although I see how you could). The chances? Lower than it could be.

I am at a loss for words. I don't have a very good play style either, but I don't know how to take this. I really don't. I believe the answer is legitimate, but is this information we really needed to know?

That all said,

Vote: chenhsi

for failure to present at least a semi-reasonable case on anybody at this point.

[StrangerCoug]

Mod: There should be an ending quote tag at the end of imaginality's first quote. Could you fix it please?

I feel so helpful.

[StrangerCoug]

No, Chen, I don't want you to claim. Knowing you have a PR would make this only ten times as frustrating. How about you ask for replacement instead? Someone who'll actually do some work for whichever team (s)he's on. Jeeze.

On the other hand: if you're going to claim, claim doc. Then the scum can kill you if we don't.

HoS: Cass

for encouraging not claiming over fakeclaiming over telling the truth. If chenhsi has a power role, let him say what it really is before we consider hammering.

In addition,

FoS: nhat

until he gives a reason for his L-2 vote.

[StrangerCoug]

Unvote: chenhsi
Un-FoS: nhat

[StrangerCoug]

EBWOP:

This is the second time you take action against me when my explanations are plainly there. I let it slide the first time, but two times.

I'm unfortunately the kind of person who has to be told and reminded of everything. Your giving post numbers are fine since they're reference points to me.

[StrangerCoug]

@ chenhsi... being a cop does not give you license to contribute absolutely nothing to the discussion safe in the knowledge that if you come under pressure you can claim and avoid being lynched. You could at least have taken advantage of the questions I threw your way instead of pretty much inviting us to wagon you and force you to claim.

unvote

(though it would be so sweet to see a cop counterclaim right now...)

It would be interesting xD

So... okay, there is a deadline fast approaching and I'm not keen to see day 1 end without a lynch.I stand by my suspicions of Dark wingstalker, but after a re-read, I am also highly suspicious of Litral.

Reading Litral's posts, the following things stood out to me:

36. Voted Tom, no reason given
38. After Stranger Coug voted him (post 37), gave a reason for his vote:

Because Tom suggested that we kill Godot, and yet he did not put on a vote himself, or give reasons.

If Litral thinks not giving a reason for a vote is suspicious, why didn't he give a reason for his vote? Seems more likely he thought of this as a justification for his vote after the fact.

Good question. I also remember Tom suggesting killing Inspector Godot, but nothing else from his posts about him.

121. votes Wumbo (back up to L-2) because:

anyone vanilla townie who has claimed is completely useless to the town, and should be lynched, unless there is a far better candidate.

Aside from whether this is a good argument, I think it's pretty interesting that he made absolutely no comment on the Dark wingstalker L-1 vote shenanigans, which was breaking news at the time he posted. Instead he tried to keep the Wumbo wagon alive with his vote.

Hmm. I have to go back and check this.

137. Here Litral unvotes Wumbo and votes chenhsi, saying:

I get town vibes out of Wumbo's final defenses after careful reading, which is why I don't feel like lynching him any more.

Yet Litral was happy to vote Wumbo in post 121, and Wumbo hadn't posted since then. It seems more likely to me that Litral realised the Wumbo wagon had run out of steam, so he claimed to have changed your views after a careful reread of his posts. (And if he

is

telling the truth, then shouldn't he have read Wumbo's posts carefully

before

voting him to L-2?)

Agreed. Litral seems to have completely withdrawn from actual scumhunting here.

183. Litral drops in to say:

Although I'm attentive, I'm not going to bother with this discussion.

I find this pretty interesting because it heightens my suspicion that

both

Dark wingstalker

and

Litral may be scum together. In post 121 Litral ignored the attacks on DWS's vote, in post 137 he only questioned him slightly ("Why the tunnel vision?"), and now he stays clear of the fray completely. I think this makes a lot of sense if DWS is Litral's scum buddy and Litral wants to avoid facing the dilemma of either obviously defending DWS (which could put him under suspicion if DWS is outed as scum later), or adding to the attack him (which at that point could have led to a DWS lynch).

Interesting catch-22 you bring up. What gets me here, and I don't know whether I'm getting this from you or Litral, is that nothing here mentions the possibility of Litral attempting to bus Dark wingstalker. It may be something the former is afraid to do, but I can't read minds.

203. Defends DWS's mistakes as unintentional:

while DWS did seem to misinterpret and misspeak at times, those misinterpretations are not meant to be malicious or anti-town, and to me, not intentional.

Good point, actually. How does Litral know this if he and DWS are not scum together?

206, 209, 212, 216. Defends his argument that lynching lurkers is a good strategy. Worth noting though, in 216 Litral says:

You're saying my strategy is to lynch every lurker. First of all, it's pretty sad if there are enough lurkers to lynch all the way to endgame, and second of all, I'm saying that we should lynch (or at least vote) chenhsi, who while suspicious (suggesting that there is nothing at all to talk about and nothing questionable at all), has the added benefit for lynching of being a lurker.

But he used the same argument to push for a lynch on Wumbo, so it does seem that the lurkiness is the reason for Litral targeting them, not an 'added benefit'.

Where is this argument?

246. Not sure why but this post also seems slightly off, maybe because of its WIFOMish flavour:

On the other hand: if you're going to claim, claim doc. Then the scum can kill you if we don't.

Not any more they will.

Now that you bring it up, something's telling me that Litral is insinuating something. Again, I can't read minds. If Litral flips scum, this would be something good to look at.

Aside from Litral, I'm also fine with a Dark wingstalker lynch if there's more chance of us agreeing on it by deadline, and I'm open to being persuaded if anyone else wants to make a case against someone else. (Cass, at the moment I'm not convinced that Wumbo is a good lynch, mainly because if I'm right about Litral and Dark wingstalker being scum, it follows that Wumbo is pretty likely to be town.)

I've been pushing pretty actively for a Dark wingstalker lynch, too, and I remember mentioning his weak L-1 vote reason and the newbie card. I think his later posts clean up his act a little bit, but I'm still pretty sure he's scum. Right now I'm happy to go with either. If chenhsi gets counterclaimed, I'll consider lynching him too.

Of course, I do post if I find anything interesting...

You say you're the cop, yet nothing in these 11 pages interests you!?

[StrangerCoug]

Also, the case on litral?? I dont think it really stands up, but i did attack him somewhat during my bandwagon. While i was being attacked, litral brought wumbo to l-2. I'll fig up the post: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 92#1149292

I dont have a great deal else to say on the matter, He's coming off as scummy, but as i've since been proven to be totally new at this sort of thing, I'm not trusting my gut at the moment.

Please don't tell me you're playing the newbie card again.

Vote: Dark wingstalker

[StrangerCoug]

But i also think Cass, Godot, nhat and Coug are scummy, but i dont have a firm conclusion to vote on yet, so i'm not voting.

Explain your case on each of us.

[StrangerCoug]

Dark wingstalker's at L-2 by my count. If Kenfucius gets replaced, the deadline will be extended from Saturday, but he should seriously consider claiming in the near future. (He doesn't have to now—even if the replacement doesn't come in, there's still a little time.)

[StrangerCoug]

EBWOP: By "he", I mean Dark wingstalker, not Kenfucius. Sorry if that confuses anybody.

[StrangerCoug]

Hey guys. I'm just about to start the read, but I would like an updated list on the top 3 suspects from everybody if you guys don't mind. It helps me when I replace in on D1's.

Dark wingstalker, Litral, and cass are my top three suspects in that order.

[StrangerCoug]

Realistically, how likely is it for there to be two cops??

In a mini, not very high. I've been in a game with two one-shot vigilantes, though, and we essentially quicklynched the second one after he claimed (after the first was long dead). We lost—and scum that I never suspected got clean away. My fault for the loss, too.

[StrangerCoug]

Well, Dark wingstalker is at least trying to play. chenhsi, on the other hand, has done nothing to help town and has given very,

VERY

little of his opinion. Cops shouldn't sit watching from the sidelines.

Unvote: Dark wingstalker
Vote: chenhsi

If cass is right about the vote count, then this is lynch minus zero.

[StrangerCoug]

chenhsi, once you're lynched, you're not supposed to give any game-related information. This mod allows "bah" posts (and you've made quite that post), but post #367 is against the rules.

[StrangerCoug]

Where I first played Mafia in cyberspace, you can talk all you want to, dead or not. You just can't kill anybody. (I had a

REALLY

hard time adjusting to MafiaScum.net because of its radically different play style, but now I can switch from one to the other as if they were languages in which I were bilingual.)

[StrangerCoug]

I very much want to hear from Maxwell, but I'd still like to go after Dark Wingstalker and Litral.

[StrangerCoug]

Well, I'm willing to believe you, since I suspected Dark wingstalker as well. If I've been in a game with two one-shot vigs, then I can believe two cops.

Vote: Dark wingstalker

If you have a sanity issue, though, maxwellhouse, we'll probably find a way to work it out (assuming you live past today).

[StrangerCoug]

Odd, if there were two cops, then why would scum take their chances on letting the other cop live?

Beats me, to be brutally honest. My first guess, however, is that they're hoping that the town thinks the other cop is scum so that they can get an easy lynch.

I suspect a gambit...

But I refuse to fall for it!

[StrangerCoug]

maxwellhouse, I have a question: If you investigated Dark wingstalker and he came back as guilty, then why are you worrying about sanity rather than voting him?

FoS: maxwellhouse

[StrangerCoug]

okay, so, i am allowed to investigate myself.

here is what i am worried about investigating myself. maybe it's overworrying? i dunno.

best thing that could happen:
i investigated DWS. he turns up guilty
we lynch DWS today, he turns up guilty.
mafia finds out i'm of normal sanity. not too bad, really. just hope they don't get the doc.
i investigate myself. i come up innocent. kind of wastes a night, but whatever.
rest of the game, hoping doc won't die.

more complicated thing:
i investigated DWS. he turns up guilty
we lynch DWS today, he turns up innocent.
mafia find out i'm insane. they kill someone innocent.
i investigate myself. i come up guilty. waste of a night.
next day, i say i am guilty. people don't know to believe me or not? since DWS claimed and came up innocent and i am saying i'm guilty now, people will think it's convenient that i got nothing new.
day 3- i either get lynched or be able to cop one more night.

so basically, investigating myself will just make one night useless. yeah, i think that's what all of you are saying. =x =x =x =x

Nowhere do you mention being paranoid, which is getting a guilty result regardless of who you investigate. I'd mention naïve, but that's impossible given your reported investigation.

[StrangerCoug]

i don't really know. strangercoug, why are you FoS me for not voting and yet saying that i should be worrying about my sanity?

I did not FoS you for not voting while saying you should worry about sanity. I FoS'd you for worrying about sanity and therefore not voting.

If you do not want to kill Dark wingstalker, then who else do you suspect at this moment and why?

[StrangerCoug]

But if Max is an unhelpful cop he is confirmed town. As long as he keeps posting there is absolutely no way we should lynch him.

How do you know max is confirmed town?

I don't, I'm working off the dangerous assumption that he is. I understand that it is a bit stupid, but max has given me a pretty pro-town vibe so far.

Why do you say assuming maxwellhouse is really the second cop is dangerous?

FoS: Inspector Godot

[StrangerCoug]

OK, I buy that.

Un-FoS: Inspector Godot

[StrangerCoug]

I really apologize people, I spilled one too many cups of tea on my laptop and the keyboard fried, but I'm going to get a keyboard converter.

Found this in his other games. I'm going to see if he had a backup mod or not to temporary take over.

The mod is female, but yes, I was wondering where she's been.

[StrangerCoug]

Looking at Day 2 makes me want to

vote: Wumbo

. He only posted twice in Day 2, and of those I like #431 less. I'm not saying you had to believe the cop, but the way this is worded, the fact that maxwellhouse died last night, and his not talking as much as I want him to is pretty much the reasoning I have behind this.

[StrangerCoug]

Sorry about the whole DWS defense. It'll bite me in the ass later.

And you are still concerned about this because?

[StrangerCoug]

I like Battousai's logic, and I'm trying to figure out who had serious doubts about the second cop. Buddying up towards Dark wingstalker, maybe?

Unvote: Cass
Vote: nhat

[StrangerCoug]

Unvote: Cass
Vote: nhat

That should read

Unvote: Wumbo

and

Vote: nhat

. My apologies.

[StrangerCoug]

Night 1: Investigated imaginality. Obviously he was home. I investigated him because he was the most pro-town player in my point and if he was away from home I would have pegged him as a power role. Of course, he could have also been mafia or serial killer or some other scum role but eh.

I don't like this. Investigating a player you thought was likely pro-town in an attempt to get a power role? I don't think so.

Major HoS: Inspector Godot

Night 2: Investigated Wumbo. He hasn't posted much and I was interested to see if he was a scum trying to go under the radar or possibly a power role keeping quiet. Unfortunately I was told that he was at home, so I guess he's just a normal townie.

I was wondering about Wumbo, actually.

[StrangerCoug]

Unvote: nhat

, but I'm going to wait for Inspector Godot to explain himself first. I call hammer.

[StrangerCoug]

I said I wanted to hammer, but whatever.

[StrangerCoug]

Let me tell you guys that I am a tracker and that maxwellhouse did indeed investigate Dark wingstalker Night 1 (the latter of which we all know xD). I tried to track Cass Night 2, but got roleblocked. Litral did not submit a night choice Night 3.

[StrangerCoug]

nhat's final posts made me the object of suspicion, which is why I decided to go ahead and claim first thing.

I still had my doubts as to whether you really wanted maxwellhouse alive and I know you've buddied up to Dark wingstalker a bit, which is why I went after you.

I think the roleblocker is town and blocked me by mistake trying to block the Mafia, but I'm not 100% sure. What you said does make sense if the roleblocker is scum, though.

[StrangerCoug]

Since Battousai effectively counterclaimed me,

Vote: Battousai.

[StrangerCoug]

Oh SHOOT! It's not a counterclaim!

This is what happens when you don't pay attention...

Unvote: Battousai
Vote: StrangerCoug

[StrangerCoug]

Did you just self-vote? Why?? Three cops... I guess that proves differing sanities.

I do not understand Battousai's logic for SC being scum. Is the only reason really that you didn't investigate him? Because that doesn't add up. Besides, with such a load of cops, the scum might well have stuff like a roleblocker and/or a godfather. So don't take any investigation results for granted! When I have more time, I'll look at all the claims in detail.

Have you ever misinterpreted what you thought was a counterclaim against you? That's what I'm guilty of, and I know what that means; therefore, my vote stands. Now kill me.

[StrangerCoug]

All right, fine! I don't care if I'm royally screwed over; I want to do something to move the game along, damn it!

Unvote: StrangerCoug
Vote: Wumbo

Stop sitting there.

[StrangerCoug]

Unvote: Wumbo

for the moment. Now engage in discussion.

I find even three cops hard to believe, Cass. If there are four cops, then there

MUST

be one sane, one insane, one paranoid and one naïve. If there are three cops, then I don't think we have both a sane and an insane cop.

I do believe the roleblocker should claim if he's town, as I believe. If there is a mass claim and the roleblocker doesn't claim such, then I'm pretty sure whoever the roleblocker is is scum.

[StrangerCoug]

Four cops, a tracker, a forensic investigator and a town roleblocker against only at most four (and probably three) scum? I find that very difficult to believe.

I find it hard to believe too, but I said I

THINK

the roleblocker is town (he or she may be scum). I also think Battousai is lying.

Cass, is that a bid for a massclaim? Coug is right, I didn't visit anyone. I'm not a fourth cop or a roleblocker.

That's what I'm wondering too.

I have an idea I want to bring out - no lynch. We have two claimed roles, and at least one of them will live tomorrow. We have apparently one group of killers, and pretty standard roles. Even if we nolynch we'll get two lynches if there are three scum and one lynch if there are four (although I find it hard to believe). I'm not sure if it'll screw over the town though, so let's just put it there...

I'm not against a no lynch if we have no other information to gain today, but right now we should be trying to find the third and most likely final scum. I'm going to

vote: Battousai

again for the time being, but no lynch should be a last resort here.

[StrangerCoug]

I am against massclaiming.

[StrangerCoug]

Meaning geraintm is the roleblocker and/or the roleblocker is scum (assuming, of course, it exists).

[StrangerCoug]

@Stranger - I do not follow your logic anymore. You claim tracker, Battousai claims cop, in an impulse you yell 'counterclaim' and vote him. Then realize your mistake and as a consequence self-vote.

Why?

I was afraid I blew it. That's all I'm going to say.

Then you unvote yourself again.

Why?

You don't play Mafia by waiting for things to happen, so I decided to make something happen. As I said, I don't care if I'm screwed over anymore.

Then you decide Batt is scum anyways and you vote him again.

Why?

Three cops in a mini is very hard for me to believe, and if there really are three cops, then chances are there is a dead paranoid cop as I can't see both a sane and an insane cop in the same game.

[StrangerCoug]

Mod: I am having technical difficulties with my Internet connection right now, and I'm posting from the library. I'm not going to call myself V/LA just yet, but if I take too long between posts, go ahead and replace me outright.

[StrangerCoug]

I'm more confident in my vote, by rethinking what StrangerCoug has claimed. SC said he tracked Max. Why would you do that? If Max was scum, then SC would have gotten the result that Max left his house. If Max was cop, the

only other option

Max could be, then SC would have gotten the result that Max left his house.

You are confusing the tracker for what I think is the reporter (the role Inspector Godot fakeclaimed).

Why would you track someone you KNEW was going to leave their house?

Because maxwellhouse wasn't confirmed cop. If the person he went after died in the morning, then that meant he was scum. Basically, I was trying to confirm his alignment.

I like Litral's #523 and Cass's #524.

[StrangerCoug]

Mod: The technical difficulties mentioned in post #527 have been resolved. Thanks.

[StrangerCoug]

Hello?

[StrangerCoug]

SC: Your voting me because you don't think there are 3 cops in the game. Please tell me why couldn't there be 3 cops, Nhat's role, and according to you, a tracker in the game? Why did vote yourself and not keep your vote on me? I know your original reason was because you think I counterclaimed you, but you had reread my role and decided to vote yourself. Why not just change your reason to doubting the legitimacy of there being 3 cops?

I can buy two cops, a forensic investigator, and a tracker. As I said, if geraintm is not a town roleblocker, then the roleblocker must be scum. I do doubt the existence of three let alone four cops. Given Dark wingstalker's lynch and what he flipped, chances are maxwellhouse was insane (according to MafiaWiki, there are rarely both a paranoid cop and a godfather). If there are three cops, the two sanity distributions that I see most likely are sane/naïve/paranoid and insane/naïve/paranoid. Two cops, one sane and one insane, isn't exactly likely, but I do find it believable.

What's that one type of theme game where all the townie roles are cops with differing sanities?

[StrangerCoug]

Ok, as promised, my thoughts

I said I wanted to hammer, but whatever.

why? why did you want to hammer so badly. if you wanted to vote, then you should have

I was pretty sure that Inspector Godot was scum and not nhat, but I wasn't confident enough for a vote. Nobody likes lynching a claimed power role, but it's already had to be done twice. chenhsi was speedlynched because he failed to contribute much to discussion and maxwellhouse countered him. They both ended up being cops. As for nhat and Inspector Godot, they didn't claim the same role, but they still conflicted (nhat claimed Inspector Godot killed imaginality, while Inspector Godot claimed to have reported on that same person the night he died). Because Godot flipped scum, Wumbo is not cleared.

All right, fine! I don't care if I'm royally screwed over; I want to do something to move the game along, damn it!

Unvote: StrangerCoug
Vote: Wumbo

Stop sitting there.

huh, did you vote for wumbo because bat is claiming either you or wumbo is scum?

No; Wumbo wasn't contributing to discussion and hadn't been for a good part of this game.

Unvote: Wumbo

for the moment. Now engage in discussion.

I find even three cops hard to believe, Cass. If there are four cops, then there

MUST

be one sane, one insane, one paranoid and one naïve. If there are three cops, then I don't think we have both a sane and an insane cop.

I do believe the roleblocker should claim if he's town, as I believe. If there is a mass claim and the roleblocker doesn't claim such, then I'm pretty sure whoever the roleblocker is is scum.

why do you think there is a roleblocker wh is town? with so many investigation roles, seems only fair that the scum get a blocker to try and even things out.

This was basically given that I was blocked Night 2 but not Night 3. It turned out I was wrong—as we all now know, the roleblocker is scum (and/or, as Cass brought up, I'm scum, but I know what I am ). As I said, I wasn't 100% sure anyway.

Four cops, a tracker, a forensic investigator and a town roleblocker against only at most four (and probably three) scum? I find that very difficult to believe.

I find it hard to believe too, but I said I

THINK

the roleblocker is town (he or she may be scum). I also think Battousai is lying.

whoa whoa whoa
bat is lying? why is he lying? why are you voting for him? i dont see why you are, you havent explained at all!

As I've said over and over, I find three cops

VERY

hard to believe. Four cops, a tracker, a forensic investigator, and a roleblocker is already seven players out of twelve with power roles, and I don't think there are that many.

If there are three cops, the two sanity distributions that I see most likely are sane/naïve/paranoid and insane/naïve/paranoid. Two cops, one sane and one insane, isn't exactly likely, but I do find it believable.

What's that one type of theme game where all the townie roles are cops with differing sanities?

S/N/P i can buy
I/N/P i find hard to believe, that basically cripples the town with 3 cops who are all getting wrong/unhelpful results doesnt it??[/quote]
I assumed the insane cop in an I/N/P distrubution would live long enough to find this out and report the opposite result from then on, but S/N/P does make better sense than I/N/P.

Sorry for the posting spree; I'd been waiting for quite a while to put my thoughts down I have to agree that StrangerCoug has said and done some weird things.

@Stranger:

Let me tell you guys that I am a tracker and that maxwellhouse did indeed investigate Dark wingstalker Night 1 (the latter of which we all know xD). I tried to track Cass Night 2, but got roleblocked. Litral did not submit a night choice Night 3.

1) Why did you investigate me night 2? Why Litral night 3? Can you paraphrase the results the mod pm-ed you night 2 and 3?

I already paraphrased my results (and you quoted them!) and I already answered why I investigated Litral. As for tracking you, I did so for the same reason that Battousai claims to have—you want maxwellhouse dead over Dark wingstalker.

I think the roleblocker is town and blocked me by mistake trying to block the Mafia, but I'm not 100% sure.

2)Why did/do you think the roleblocker is town?

See above.

Since Battousai effectively counterclaimed me, Vote: Battousai.

He didn't, you misread, but even so:
3) There are multiple cops in this game. Why couldn't there be multiple trackers?

Trackers don't have variant sanities, so I'm almost positive I'm the only one. In addition, there can only be so many power roles for the game to still be balanced.

Have you ever misinterpreted what you thought was a counterclaim against you? That's what I'm guilty of, and I know what that means; therefore, my vote stands. Now kill me.

No, I haven't, but if I had, I'm pretty sure 'kill me' would

not

be my response.
4) I still don't get why you felt obliged to vote yourself after a simple misunderstanding. Nothing disastrous happened, as far as I can see. Care to explain your thought pocess a bit more?

Panic attack, which I'm pretty prone to town or scum.

All right, fine! I don't care if I'm royally screwed over

5) Why would you be royally screwed over?

Panicking is a scum tell, which I know I'm guilty of and which was what I was referencing.

6) Why did you unvote Wumbo again, so soon after you voted him?

Pressure vote to get him to contribute, which he doesn't seem to want to do.

I'm not against a no lynch if we have no other information to gain today, but right now we should be trying to find the third and most likely final scum. I'm going to vote: Battousai again for the time being, but no lynch should be a last resort here.

7) Yet you say you think Batt's a liar in that same post. Why would you support a no lynch then?

I didn't. I said I'm not against it

IF

there's no other information to gain today. There is. Don't misrepresent me.

I am against massclaiming.

8) Why? Seeing as you started the claiming today.

One of the last things nhat did before he did was cast suspicion on me for not exactly wanting to kill Dark Wingstalker and Inspector Godot, which is true.

Meaning geraintm is the roleblocker and/or the roleblocker is scum (assuming, of course, it exists).

9) Why would you doubt the existence of a RB? Your own credibility depends on the presence of one...[/quote]
I know, and I believe the roleblocker exists. I said that because I'm not confirmed and I'm as equally likely to be scum as anybody else (at least ignoring power roles).

I was afraid I blew it. That's all I'm going to say.

10) How mysterious. You sure you can't say anything more?

About whether or not I was counterclaimed? I'm sure there isn't anything else I can say.

If there are three cops, the two sanity distributions that I see most likely are sane/naïve/paranoid and insane/naïve/paranoid. Two cops, one sane and one insane, isn't exactly likely, but I do find it believable.

11) That sounds as if three cops is more likely than two cops. Yet you think Battousai is lying. Why?[/quote]
Again, misrepresentation. I said "if", meaning I either am not 100% sure about it or I don't 100% believe it. In this case, it's the latter.

Minor FoS: Cass.

I see two cops more likely: either sane with another variant sanity or insane with naïve or paranoid.

12) How do you feel about lynching Wumbo today?

I'm pretty sure there are better lynches than Wumbo at this point despite his lack of contribution.

[StrangerCoug]

EBWOP: Two of the quote boxes should be:

If there are three cops, the two sanity distributions that I see most likely are sane/naïve/paranoid and insane/naïve/paranoid. Two cops, one sane and one insane, isn't exactly likely, but I do find it believable.

What's that one type of theme game where all the townie roles are cops with differing sanities?

S/N/P i can buy
I/N/P i find hard to believe, that basically cripples the town with 3 cops who are all getting wrong/unhelpful results doesnt it??

If there are three cops, the two sanity distributions that I see most likely are sane/naïve/paranoid and insane/naïve/paranoid. Two cops, one sane and one insane, isn't exactly likely, but I do find it believable.

11) That sounds as if three cops is more likely than two cops. Yet you think Battousai is lying. Why?

[StrangerCoug]

To be honest I'm kind of tired of being accused. It's boring. We could bring it to LYLO next round by using the mislynch on me. I don't mind and at this point I would prefer it. Being blue when everyone else alive has some form of investigative power is very confusing.

vote: StrangerCoug

You're voting me because you're tired of being accused? This screams of scum backed into a corner.

[StrangerCoug]

Un-FoS: Cass

. Apologies.

If I had to make a list of suspicion, then starting with the most suspicious player, I'd say Battousai, Wumbo, you, geraintm, Litral. There's a considerable gap between Battousai and Wumbo.

If you can convince me of three cops, then I'll go ahead with Wumbo for his minimal contributions. He throws a vote on me without what I think is a good reason for it (then again, when I see votes I also need to see explanations or where I can get them to go with the votes). Litral's cleared, and I don't think geraintm has done anything majorly scummy.

[StrangerCoug]

Stranger, how about this: Nhat had a very powerful investigatory role. You're a tracker, also not bad. Add a sane cop to that, and it's just too overpowered for town. Three crazy cops however (which makes more sense than two) balance Nhats role, by making crime scenes crowded and confusing. A tracker in this scenario is as much for finding the scum as for confirming all the cops.

All theory, yes, but it feels plausible to me. The downside is it makes Batt utterly useless. We'll just have to find the last scum the old-fashioned way...

Am I correct in saying you believe Battousai is a cop, but not that a sane cop exists?

[StrangerCoug]

Mod: Could we have a votecount please?

[StrangerCoug]

I'll go ahead and

Unvote: Battousai

since I can buy three cops now.

Vote: Wumbo

See posts #551 and #557, as I am NOT running around in circles.

[StrangerCoug]

Cass pretty much won the convincing game with me, and I do agree that he is naïve if he really is a cop.

[StrangerCoug]

By "he", I mean Battousai, by the way.

[StrangerCoug]

Last night, this scum killed someone, so they left their house. SC checked Litral last night, he didn't leave his house.

Just noticed we're confusing the tracker with the reporter again. The mod specifically told me that maxwellhouse targeted Dark wingstalker. I couldn't get you, and Litral confirmed his not submitting anything last night.

Litral's cleared with one scum left regardless.

[StrangerCoug]

Can anyone tell me what Cass claimed? I seem to have missed that somewhere.

I think she said she was a vanilla townie. The only power roles left seem to be the tracker, a probably naïve cop, and a scum roleblocker, and I believe there are still doubts that all three exist.

[StrangerCoug]

Ah, but then again, wouldn't he have checked to see if he would've lynched his buddy? Because he really was ignorant of how many votes there were on Wumbo.

Good point.

Dear God, this game is confusing... but it's still damn well interesting!

[StrangerCoug]

If there is no town roleblocker claim, then that means the mafia has a roleblocker or SC is lying, which means he's scum and Litral is possibly scum.

We already know that the roleblocker has to be scum, contrary to my initial thoughts.

[StrangerCoug]

If your voting wumbo for that, then why don't you find me suspicious? Is 4 more posts a day not suspicious, if it is why is no one pursuing Geraintm?

Your posts are more decent than Wumbo's, though yes, I feel that geraintm should speak up more.

Wumbo claimed vanilla Day 1 at L-5, which made it easier for scum to look for power roles (though it's essentially the power role claims that cost us here). Since then, he simply seems not to know a lot about what's going on. TL,DR version: for the most part he's not even trying.

It also makes no sense to me that he's voting Cass when he has better reason to believe that she's town than scum.

[StrangerCoug]

SC: Basically your confusing anti-town with scum tells.

What is the difference between being anti-town and being scummy?

Also, show me his posts where it seems he doesn't know what's going on.

They're largely from Day 1. Here, here, and here.

Also, why should he believe Cass is town over scum?

I'm not saying he should. I'm pointing out that he says he's leaning town on Cass, but he is voting her anyway, which doesn't make sense.

[StrangerCoug]

1) The first post by a living player today was SC claiming. The reason he claimed was because nhat told everyone to basically keep an eye on SC. By SC's points against Wumbo, SC is even guiltier because she claimed without even being voted for. Also, why would you be so worried other players would look into your posts? No one would lynch you just because Nhat said you were suspicious for not wanting anything to do with lynching Godot or DWS.

Everyone you refer to in this point is male, so I don't know who you mean by "she".

As for nhat saying I was suspicious, I claimed as a precautionary measure.

2) Litral made a good point that if SC was roleblocked N2, as he claims, why wasn't he roleblocked the next night. N2, scum successfully killed a claimed powerrole. They would roleblock SC again, or kill SC, to make sure their kill would be successfull. SC originally claimed that the roleblocker has to be protown and mistakenly roleblocked him. We know now, that's not the case.

Why I didn't get roleblocked night 3 confuses me too, but remember, he or she didn't know night 2 that I was a tracker.

3) SC unvotes me, to vote himself for misreading my claim. Says he's royally screwed over, and voted Wumbo to get him to talk. Claims I'm lieing then votes me. Then switches back to Wumbo as more people voiced their opinions.

He's royally screwed over? I think only if you were scum you would be royally screwed over. If he thought I was lieing, he'd still should have kept his vote on me after the counterclaim mishap, but instead panicks and votes himself.

Counterclaims almost always imply that you're either a power role or scum; however, I say "almost always" for a reason, as maxwellhouse counterclaimed chenhsi's cop claim and they both turned out to be the cop.

4) Litral finds a past post of SC concerning Max, which SC hasn't responded to yet.

maxwellhouse, I have a question: If you investigated Dark wingstalker and he came back as guilty, then why are you worrying about sanity rather than voting him?

FoS: maxwellhouse

Why would you FOS someone that you knew was protown?

Damn it >< He was worrying about sanity issues more than I felt was warranted, however.

[StrangerCoug]

2) That's not the point. Scum probably would think that you were the doc, since they were able to kill a power role with you roleblocked.

Hence the confusion, though I now understand why scum would most likely do this.

3) How does that explain the reason you voted yourself, instead of keeping the vote on me?

I realized you didn't counterclaim, and my voting you claiming you did so left a black mark on me.

4) How does a cop over worrying about sanity = suspicious?

He was withholding his vote on Dark wingstalker in doing so, and it seemed like he was trying to protect him.

[StrangerCoug]

If SC is scum and claimed that Wumbo did not leave his house.

Stop confusing the tracker with the reporter.

Best case scenerio, SC is town and gets a guilty result.

I am not the cop, so I can't directly prove one's guilt.

[StrangerCoug]

EBWOP:

If SC-scum says she got a guilty

I am male.

[StrangerCoug]

Why could you not prove someone's guilt or innocence? Seems to me that in this situation you could. And if Wumbo is honestly vanilla, both reporter and tracker would get a 'did not leave house' result, right?

True, but remember that the tracker also gets the person's target if any. If I targeted Battousai and he went after, say, geraintm, and geraintm is still alive, then either Battousai forwent his kill to block geraintm or Battousai really is the cop (this assumes the roleblocker can't perform both a kill and a block).

[StrangerCoug]

SC: Why are you getting all antsy about my terminology? You know what I meant by Wumbo did not leave his house. That is implying you track wumbo and wumbo did not leave his home.

Gotcha.

Also, for the record, I'm pretty sure a roleblocker never has to forfeit his/her ability to kill if they are the last mafia member alive. I have never seen a game like that as it hampers the mafia. In this game, the town is kind of powerful so I really don't see that as happening at all.

I don't see a war of attrition going on either.

It also seems to be that we're not getting anywhere with a lynch, so I'm going to

unvote

and

vote: No Lynch

.

[StrangerCoug]

And we wait.

[StrangerCoug]

Damn it. Roleblocked again trying to track Wumbo. I was contemplating Battousai for awhile, but then again, I can believe him, which is why I didn't go after him.

[StrangerCoug]

We seem to be ignoring Wumbo. I tried to track him last night based on his anti-town behavior yesterday, especially his wanting himself lynched.

geraintm is right about there being zero confirmed innocents. In fact, I think scum opted to keep both Battousai and me alive partly to get rid of the confirmed innocent. If Battousai and Wumbo both live through tomorrow and the former investigates the latter, then depending on the result, either Wumbo is the last scum by process of elimination or Battousai is naïve if not scum.

I'm going to hang onto my vote until I get more information on the other players.

[StrangerCoug]

Oh, and

mod: The first post doesn't mark Litral as dead.

[StrangerCoug]

EBWOP: In #645, where it says geraintm, I mean Cass. Sorry.

[StrangerCoug]

I said again, I wanted to get lynched because it would end the suspicion on me. But the argument against lynching anyone was fairly convincing.

Why do you feel advocating your own lynch is necessary to end the suspicion on you? It's much better to defend yourself than to do that.

[StrangerCoug]

Pardon the wall of text, guys. Player review here.

Kenfucius/Battousai:

I'd yell at Kenfucius for pressure-voting chenhsi if I didn't do the same thing. I can't figure out his reason for voting Wumbo, and his quick unvote is questionable.

Battousai replaces in and his second post puts Dark wingstalker at L-1. He states that, at that point, DWS, geraintm and I are his top three suspects—DWS for putting Wumbo at L-1 out of not paying attention, geraintm for misinterpreting posts, and me for telling Wumbo to claim or die (which I defend as my play style). I now think that this post saying that he doesn't want to lynch chenhsi despite a counterclaim is a breadcrumb to his also being a cop. He then goes off saying that neither maxwellhouse nor Dark wingstalker should be lynched Day 2 so maxwellhouse's sanity (if he is the cop) can be confirmed. After FoS'ing Inspector Godot for lining up lynches and then voting him for banking on maxwellhouse being a second cop, he decides to vote Dark wingstalker anyway, and DWS turns out to be the godfather. Battousai then votes Inspector Godot given the Dark wingstalker wagon, and he ends up also being Mafia. Votes me given my claim and his results so far since he hadn't investigated me yet. Mistakes my tracker claim for a reporter claim and by that reasoning questions why I targeted maxwellhouse knowing that he would leave his house—actually, since I am the tracker, exactly why I targeted him in the first place. Decides to leave me alive given that both claimed power roles should stick around and then votes Cass for his reasons for investigating her Day 2, then votes no lynch to prevent today from being lynch or lose. Investigates me and gets an innocent result.

Tom/Cass:

All I can get from Tom before Cass replaced him is that he voted Wumbo for his reactions to his inactivity. When Cass replaced, she unvoted Wumbo but still has a case on him. Tries to prevent chenhsi from claiming and tells him to claim doc if he does, then defends it as her getting annoyed at chenhsi. OK, Cass, what the hell!?

This is the first mention of a scum roleblocker that we have—Cass claims Dark wingstalker hinted at it. (I got roleblocked twice, so the only way they can't is if I'm scum and lied about the blocks.)



Questions both my self-vote and Battousai's assuredness that I'm scum. I'm debating if this is fence sitting, but I am aware that neither action makes sense to her. I think she is the first person to guess, however, that Battousai is either naïve or scum (said insane, but corrected herself). We now know that if she is incorrect, then Wumbo is scum.

Votes Wumbo based on logic, which is starting to give me second thoughts.

geraintm:

Shoots down Dark wingstalker's "Mafia never hammer" comment, and if I remember correctly I helped do this too. Presents a good case on me, then develops my case even more. What stands out in the second such post is that he attacks me for reserving the hammer yet being hesitant to vote Inspector Godot, which he interprets as my temptation to bus him, but he has some other good points there too, notably his thoughts on the cop sanity distribution. The only thing I don't like is his questioning why Litral wasn't cleared at that point (I tracked him, he didn't send a night action N3, and he confirmed this; thus he was cleared unless there were two scum left, which is unlikely).

StrangerCoug:

Oh come the hell on. Don't be lazy! Review me yourself

Wumbo:

Not a lot Day 1 besides on Dark wingstalker and chenhsi. I don't like the first paragraph of this post, presenting a case yet acknowledging that he himself would most likely be the lynch. This, along the same lines pessimism-wise, is another thing setting me off. Like me, he's fighting back from wanting to be dead, but he seems to be doing this arbitrarily. I wanted to be dead because I didn't want to suffer the consequences of what I misinterpreted as a counterclaim, but if I want discussion to continue I have to put that behind me. Wumbo doesn't really seem to be doing so.

My LoS runs Cass, Wumbo, Battousai, and geraintm in order starting with who I think is the scummiest. I think Cass is the best play today, largely because of her later Day 1 actions, but Wumbo's another possibility depending on what comes up.

Vote: Cass
FoS: Wumbo

[StrangerCoug]

Sorry about that.

[StrangerCoug]

You've got to prove why it'd be a bad idea to lynch you better than that, Cass.

As for your thoughts on me being scum, most of it makes sense to me except what you say was my night 3 action. You say I blocked Litral so I can safely say I checked him, when doing so would actually not be safe as scum roleblocker. Note that both times I got roleblocked (nights 2 and 4), I named my intended target (you and Wumbo respectively). If I blocked Litral night 3 and he ended up being a power role, he could still counter me despite my having done so.

[StrangerCoug]

You've got to prove why it'd be a bad idea to lynch you better than that, Cass.

As for your thoughts on me being scum, most of it makes sense to me except what you say was my night 3 action. You say I blocked Litral so I can safely say I checked him, when doing so would actually not be safe as scum roleblocker. Note that both times I got roleblocked (nights 2 and 4), I named my intended target (you and Wumbo respectively). If I blocked Litral night 3 and he ended up being a power role, he could still counter me despite my having done so.

Please explain - because I don't see how he could have. If you block him, you claim the result 'he didn't go anywhere', and that's the truth. So there's no risk in claiming it. The only risk is that a town tracker has tracked you to the nightkill. And that's why you thought a tracker-counterclaim was so very bad.

If Litral were the doctor and I blocked him, the mod would not have told him the latter. If he caught me in a lie that way, game over. If Litral were an investigative role and I blocked him, he would have been informed that he was blocked. Power roles don't forget who they targeted, even if blocked. If I'm cought in a lie that way, game over.

Now mind you, I have a class to go to.

[StrangerCoug]

And why exactly are we sure that Wumbo is town and Batt is naive? Seems to me that Wumbo could still be scum.

That's a good question. I do have my suspicions about Wumbo. In fact, where is he?

[StrangerCoug]

Bump. C'mon guys, someone needs to swing if we want to win today.

[StrangerCoug]

Wumbo, Geraint, SC, who would you lynch if it was deadline right now?

You or Wumbo.

[StrangerCoug]

Well, something's better than nothing at this point. We ended yesterday with a no-lynch, so we're bought a mislynch, but if we want to use that benefit, somebody needs to hang. I really don't like Cass right now.

[StrangerCoug]

#650 has most of my case on her, though her line of thinking in #658 doesn't work 100% either, as I point out in the post after that.

[StrangerCoug]

Mod: I have a vote out on Cass here.

[StrangerCoug]

I'm surprised I'm not dead too, and I thought it'd be either me or Battousai for the NK. I do believe the theory that the cop was kept alive knowing that he was naive.

[StrangerCoug]

- SC is the scum: he gambled on Batt being naive or checking Wumbo and lied about getting blocked. A bit risky, but might be worth it.
- Batt is the scum: he blocked SC and killed Litral. He convinces us he is naive cop, the only smart thing for him to do at this point. Zero risk.
- I, Geraint or Wumbo is scum: blocked SC, unthreatened by Batt if it's me or geraint (zero risk), gambled if it's Wumbo (note in this case Batt could even be sane!). A bit risky, but might be worth it.

I figured I'd add Battousai's investigation claims and my own tracking claims to this in case it helps anybody:

Battousai's claimed investigations:

1. geraintm → Innocent
2. Cass → Innocent
3. Litral → Innocent
4. StrangerCoug → Innocent

My claimed tracks:

1. maxwellhouse → Dark wingstalker
2. Cass → Roleblocked
3. Litral → Nobody
4. Wumbo → Roleblocked

[StrangerCoug]

EBWOP: Just thought of this:

I'd still lynch SC or Wumbo today - both are scummy, but lynching SC (if he is town, which would surprise me) would give us some information. Leaving him alive will just lead to another 'blocked'. Unless I'm missing something - in that case please inform me.

Unless

I

am missing something, policy-lynching me for information only works if Battousai is a sane cop and survives Night 5 with a guilty on Wumbo. (If Battousai does live to say that Wumbo is scum, though, it clears whichever one of you and geraintm is still alive at that point.)

For obvious reasons, if I am lynched today and I flip scum, game over.

[StrangerCoug]

BAH!

[StrangerCoug]

I thought that I had a traitor on my side when my lynch didn't end the game.

Good game

[StrangerCoug]

How is geraintm a SK, unless scum and sk kill everyother night.

We the Mafia always killed as long as we were alive.

[StrangerCoug]

How would you have changed the rules to take geraintm's play into account?

[StrangerCoug]

A couple of my scum motivations:

I wanted to keep maxwellhouse around Night 1 in an attempt to make him look suspicious. When that cost us the godfather, I told Inspector Godot to kill him on my behalf because I didn't want to run the risk of him not being paranoid and costing us another of our own. I gambled with Battousai Night 3 not only to do the same thing, but also to attract as little suspicion towards me as possible, because I thought killing one claimed power role would implicate the other. That didn't work out too well either, and my lynch cost the Mafia the game.