Mini 626 - Crew vs. Pigs - GAME OVER!!

[darkdude]

Hi.


Okay, hear me, because I have a better way to get this game roling than random votes .

I have thought about this for a bit, and I have come to a decision. I shall role claim now.

I am Guido Gnocchi and I have family connections with the top officials in the police department so I cannot be arrested by the rats. Basicaly, as far as I know I have no powers but a passive protection that prevents me from being succesfully eliminated during night. Sounds like the standard bulletproof townie role.

I decided to claim now because I believe the benefits are much greater for town if I claimed now than later. I have considered trying to make use of my night-immortality to try to lure scum, but Cicero's rule #10 prevented any breadcrumbing. I didn't like the risk of having this great town asset accidentally lynched. Having a town with an open role that isn't afraid to speak against scum seems like a much better option. And personally, making elaborate plans isn't my forte, so I just like to make use of my blunt and to-the-point playstyle to scumhunt. By claiming now I have a easier time to go around scumhunting since my intentions are open for all to see. I also believe the town has the advantage of gaining additional information due to my claim.

No, I'm not a power role trying to hide in plaine sight. Though if scum wants to test their WIFOM luck they can be my guest.


Now, the existence of my role implies that Scum is most likely more powerful than one would expect in a normal Mini. Also I have considered the possibility that my immortality doers not guarrantee my protection 100% of the time. I recently played a game on another forum where the scum had the ability to kidnap, which incapacitates a player but not kill them. So it is possible I am not immune to all scum actions. Either way, I think we should expect to seer some things outside of ordinary Minis, even though this is a "Normal Mini".

[darkdude]

Rule 10 rejects the use of codes like cryptography to make breadcrumbs, not traditonal breadcrumbs. I'm sorry if that was unclear.

I didn't know what the precise defeinition of breadcrumb was.

http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php ... Breadcrumb

The example in there used a simple code, so I thought it was not allowed.

I didn't want to start dropping tells that I'm bulletproof because I find that more often than not tells go either unnoticed or misinterpreted.

Dark Dude, can you be killed in the endgame?

Well it doesn't say any exceptions apply to my ability. of course this doesn't mean there aren't any exceptions, but I assume my power stays the same unless some other role affects it.

Isn't the value of his role the potential wasted night kill? Also, now the cop may be tempted to investigate him sooner rather then later, meaning we just wasted an investigation attempt if he's telling the truth.

To be honest I didn't consider much the other side of investigating. I only thought about possibly dropping cop tells to lure scum into attacking me (which I scrapped because I didn't think tells would be effective unless I was suspiciously blunt). I didn't think about possibly getting a cop to waste an investigation, sorry.

I actually think I have a good chance of soaking up a night kill. When I decided to claim I considered WIFOM as an insentive for scum to still attack.

And if I were godfather...well I don't know, there's always "what if's". I can't really object to that.

[darkdude]

I also think you may be feigning comfort. You've made four posts and have tried to facilitate discussion. I think you may be compensating for a tendency to lurk.

I think if I were scum his post would have been a common mistake for a partner-crime . Trying to see if everyone could accept something as the truth.

But I don't see anything wrong with his opening posts. How else would you start a game? Assuming people don't jsut start off claiming like I did :p .

[darkdude]

I meant partner-IN-crime.

[darkdude]

What I left out of my FoS was that he was facilitating discussion unnecessarily.

Wait, are you talking about post #23 or the ones he made before that?

[darkdude]

Yes, post #23 was sort of out of place.

Ones before that were perfectly fine IMHO.

[darkdude]

I have never been part of someone claiming this early. I wasnt sure if people would say if they believed it or not.

But didn't you think that they would obviously state that eventually?

[darkdude]

That would of waited until there was a lynch case against you. I just wanted to know now.

If I were about to get lynched then obviously the majority of the players do not believe that it's true then .

[darkdude]

Well see I was inspired by this

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... e19#892328

To me I think I made enough WIFOM for scum to target me anyways. It doesn't really matter whether the scum think it's true or not; the more convincing the more they doubt themselves...it's the trap of WIFOM!

Maybe because in my mind I always think that if I were scum I would defeinitely attack anyways just to probe the possibilities.

In addition I believe not everything is decided by night actions. If we can get good scumhunting going during Day, which I hope my claim helps with, then it also increases our chances. Not everything relies on "Oh scum has X% chance to kill power role now". Albeit the chances are a factor. I don't think my claiming would be that negative to town. If I was some other sort of important role claiming wouldn't work as it ties up the potential doctor, or I would die.

[darkdude]

What extra powers would those be?

I think we could have scum power roles. Makes no sense to throw regular goons against a setup with bulletproof town.

ftr, he WIFOM'd a lot better then you, although his claim was less believable to begin with

Yes, the situation and claim is distictively different, but I still think the basic idea of using open WIFOM to confuse and probe scum is okay.

Your claim hasn't done anything but trapped everyone in a vicious wifom circle.

I disagree. I think we have a good idea of players' behaviour by looking at their reaction at my claim.

I am slightly wary of the people who haven't given an opinion on it. Especially kison. While chenshi and cass have both mentioned being 50-50 on it in some way, kison's post was vague and revealed nothing.

Seemed to me like he wanted to inquire more first before making a decision. Though I am awaiting his full response. Hist total of two posts so far is a bit on the low side of activity.

[darkdude]

I mean, at L-2 or L-1 this kind of unprovable claim would sound much more suspect.

If by that you mean "less believable", then I concur. I didn't want to wait and drop cop/doc tells and then run into some difficulty in which my claim would be difficult to believe.

Darkdude, could you please explain again why it benefits the town to claim this role before there's even a threat of a lynch on you? You say we gain additional information due to your claim. How and what do you mean by that?

1. Town can prepare against possible scum special powers.
2. Scum are tempted by WIFOM
3. Puts players into a situation where their responses can be better analyzed.
4. Provide easier scumhunting for myself due to the claim.
5. Less risk of scum framing me for lynch.

[darkdude]

who is to say we are going to be more likely to trust this claim now rather than later?

I for one would not believe someone who claims bulletproof townie when in danger of being lynched. Of course, in normal circumstances, that is. It may have been possible to make it more believable with some elaborate plan, but as I said I'm not particularly good with those, and couldn't think of any

Do you know if you can be killed off by anything besides scum (vigilante)?

It says that I can't be eliminated by night kills without specifying a type, so I assume no.

[darkdude]

I disagree. There are some kinds of wifom which I think are fine. There are other kinds of wifom which are recursive and don't help. Those reactions were based on the recursive kind.

It's not what they think about my WIFOM, it's about how they react in general. I mean, besides my claim we already started some discussions on raider's supposed "feign of comfort" and Kison. IMHO I think it's a good start compared to most other games where random voting draws out for 10 pages and discussion is mostly based on trivial points. I feel we are much better developed in this game.

Again, this is true only if we believe you. And it helps only you. And it gives us no guarantee that your scumhunting is right.

Yes, a few of the reasons I made the claim were beneficial to me alone, but I didn't see it harming anyone else, so improving scumhunting for a player, regardless myself or someone else, seems like a good choice. It just so happened that I couldn't think of any way to help other people scumhunt

[darkdude]

Hm...I don't see what the fuss about camps is. I'm sure we know better than to judge people based on which perspective he/she had on a single event alone. Clearly it can't be that scum buddied up to form a group, so we shouldn't expect to base suspicion on groups.

[darkdude]

Okay, from the top...

It is harmful. If people decide to follow through with their thoughts on your claim, we'll end up with a long discussion that doesn't help us any.

You agree that discussions and reactions are good, but you think that the discussion spawned by my claim is bad? Would you rather have us debate on trivial things just like how most games start when people get stuck on random voting for 10 pages on Day 1? I don't understand you point yet.

is a big jump from nk immune. It's a completely different power entirely. Do you think it's plausible that he's both a godfather and bulletproof? An nk-immune-investigation-proof scum?

Uh...I don't understand where you get this from. Raider never said "he claim NK immune... = he is investigation immune". I think it's pretty valid to suspect me to be a godfather if I am scum. It ISN'T based on my claim of NK immunity, rather the effect that my claim had on me, which was to put me into the spotlight.


Regarding discussion on lynching/keeping me alive:

Obviously I claimed because I want to avoid being lynched. But it is also clear that since no one knows my role it is valid to keep a close eye on me. I don't even know why there's discussion about whether I should be automatically freed from lynches. Obviously things change due to circumstances. Seems odd to me when an idea is suggested to be carved in stone.

Yeah, I wanted to know what the Ghyrt meant when he said "this just leaves Chenhsi". (Stop spelling my name wrong!)

I have no idea why I used the word 'guess'.

We want to know your perspective. So far you have only said:

I think darkdude is probably telling the truth, but I am still suspicous of him.

Cubsfan4ever has posted once.

Ennui2778 has posted 3 times, all useless posts.

Are they lurking?

I think it is interestign to note that you're not really putting a lot of content into your own posts and being reminded for that while you accuse others of lurking. Are you saying that compared to those you mentioned, your activity is enough?


Regarding Raider's suggestion of "my plan":

No, I do not have a secret plan. I claimed so I could play normally. Aside from planning

that

, I have no other plan. I said it would give me an easier time to scumhunt, not that everyone should consider letting me make choices for town. If you read carefully I even said that I'm not good at making plans .

[darkdude]

Perhaps darkdude was claiming to get others to claim as well, I don't believe this has been suggested, but while Darkdude clearly has a very powerful role, there could be a counterbalance to his power.

Uh...I mean what I say, and say what I mean. I didn't want a mass claim. I have no idea where you're pulling that from.

As raider said, it would be nice for the scum roles to claim. We can still hope.

[darkdude]

Hm...I just did a quick meta search for chenhsi's games

Seems like just tagging along is his play style. I haven't see any posts with a complete paragraph yet in the quick search of his other games.

I'm not sure which course of action would be best. He's very hard to read because of the lack of content in his posts, but I doubt there's anything we can do about this. For now maybe looking at the bigger picture will help more than questioning him.

Kison's vote and Forbidden light's reaction to it seems like a point of interest. I'm not sure what to make of it just yet. I'll look over it more carefully when I get the time.

[darkdude]

I think I shall join those who will treat DD's claim as a null-tell. Just let him scumhunt with the rest of the town for now.

There's one thing Darkdude said that disturbed me. A possible contradiction:

It says that I can't be eliminated by night kills without specifying a type,

But in his claim-post he said:

I cannot be arrested by the rats

And that doesn't seem to be the same thing to me. This could just be distracting flavor, or it could be a slip-up.

That flavor text certainly sounds to me like a vig or sk would NK him just fine (I assume they don't 'arrest').

The first quote was me paraphrasing. I am aware that flavour-wise in this game, night kills won't really be "kills" but "cop arrests", because this is what the flavour in my role message says. Seeing as there's no flavour text in the vanilla town role message to indicate this, I didn't want to confuse anyone by talking about being "arrest-immune", since I'm pretty sure they are the same as night kills.

Game-wise my role message says I'm immune to all night attacks. So I'm pretty sure I get similar protection against vig/sk attacks.

I think if darkdude is town, his reasons for claiming are rather bizarre. What good comes out of it? An unkillable townie won't be targetted by scum now? Great. We want him to be scum-targetted if that's the case so we can avoid losing another town vote during the day. I actually am more suspicious of him now to be a Godfather so he can turn up innocent in an investigation and become the town becomes leery to lynch him down the line for risk of losing his ability in an endgame. Don't like it at all.

Thanks for posting. So what do you suggest we do about my claim?

[darkdude]

Raider seems to have a love for clear consensus.

Please do not fish for Ennui's role. Ennui, please do not hint at your role should you have one(unless you're scum, I'll let you hint at that). Please realize a BPV _counterbalance_ role, whatever that should be, would be in the hands of scum because a BPV is a Town role. So if scum have an offset with, say, a roleblocker, they're not going to jump up and down shouting 'look at me!' On the flipside, we've all pretty much come to the conclusion that should dark d00d be lying, he's likely a godfatherish type of role. What's the counterbalance to a Godfather? The hell if I know - it could be any variation of roles. This line of discussion is not beneficial and trying to get info on people's roles as a result is only going to be detrimental to us.

Now that reminded me of something I was suspecting. Raider seems to be trying to use my claim as a starting point to probe for his own interests. As pointed out many times now, he first asked for a what everyone should agree about my claim. Now he's trying to probe the setup.

But it still doesn't make much sense if he's doing this because he is scum. That would imply he does not know of a role in his faction that could counter me.

@ Ting

Yeah I think I see your point now. I got stuck on the semantics earlier on

[darkdude]

@Kison, you are reading too much into it. I was asking if he thought he had the opposite role. A yes answer would give us a one or the other is scum and that would help town. The other would be what would take him out as in if he is town what scum role could do it, and if he is scum what town could do without having to lynch. You jumped the gun on that one. This seems more like him trying to tell his scum buddies what to do. So as a non-OMGUS Unvote, Vote Kison

Wait, so you're saying if there's a "counter bulletproof" role, then it would make sense that the two roles are in different factions, right?

I think it wasn't a bad plan.

[darkdude]

Honestly I wasnt trying to fish I was just looking for more informaiton to find out what possible roles could be out there.

Isn't that the same thing?

I'm not sure what to do with Chenhsi, since usually it is difficult to change someone's playstyle. The way he is now makes it very difficult for anyone to get any read on him. If it helps, we can try pressuring him. However, Cubsfan is also inactive, and from another quick game search it seems like he does write paragraphs occasionally . Therefore I think if we want to pressure inactives voting on Cubsfan may yield better result.

Vote: Cubsfan4ever

I don't have any real suspects yet. I only have noted that Forbidden light seems to have a shift of position and Raider made some weird moves early on. Ennui is semi-active. He's not posting much content but he seems to be at least thinking a bit.

[darkdude]

If you didn't want to confuse anyone and your role message said you were immune to all night attacks, why does your first post on the matter say "I cannot be arrested by rats". Seems like your first post contradicts your later explanation. Am I missing something?

Well I don't know how to better explain it:

I did a quick summary of my role, briefly restating parts of both the flavour text and mechanic text. If I had only left it at "I cannot be arrested by rats", then it would be confusing, but I believe I also added a part saying that game-wise this translates to NK immunity.

[darkdude]

My entire first post:

Hi.


Okay, hear me, because I have a better way to get this game roling than random votes .

I have thought about this for a bit, and I have come to a decision. I shall role claim now.

I am Guido Gnocchi and I have family connections with the top officials in the police department so I cannot be arrested by the rats.

Basicaly, as far as I know I have no powers but a passive protection that prevents me from being succesfully eliminated during night. Sounds like the standard bulletproof townie role.

I decided to claim now because I believe the benefits are much greater for town if I claimed now than later. I have considered trying to make use of my

night-immortality

to try to lure scum, but Cicero's rule #10 prevented any breadcrumbing. I didn't like the risk of having this great town asset accidentally lynched. Having a town with an open role that isn't afraid to speak against scum seems like a much better option. And personally, making elaborate plans isn't my forte, so I just like to make use of my blunt and to-the-point playstyle to scumhunt. By claiming now I have a easier time to go around scumhunting since my intentions are open for all to see. I also believe the town has the advantage of gaining additional information due to my claim.

No, I'm not a power role trying to hide in plaine sight. Though if scum wants to test their WIFOM luck they can be my guest.


Now, the existence of my role implies that Scum is most likely more powerful than one would expect in a normal Mini. Also I have considered the possibility that my immortality doers not guarrantee my protection 100% of the time. I recently played a game on another forum where the scum had the ability to kidnap, which incapacitates a player but not kill them. So it is possible I am not immune to all scum actions. Either way, I think we should expect to seer some things outside of ordinary Minis, even though this is a "Normal Mini".

Bolded is me paraphrasing the flavour text; underlined is me paraphrasing the mechanic text.

[darkdude]

What is the purpose of guessing setup? We can't assume it is true and base any moves on it, because it is unlikely we can outguess our moderator. Making guesses at how many scum there are doesn't help much does it...?

Could we get prod on Cubsfan?

Unvote

Vote: Chenhsi

Cause I think he's doing more intentional lurking than just making contentless posts. He has posted elsewhere (Other Games section) without replying to anything here.

[darkdude]

Request replacement: Chenhsi

Do we really have to deal with someone who doesn't want to play? Or is that a new valid strategy?

[darkdude]

The "can't be arrested by rats" does nothing to suggest he would be immune to all night-kills from a Vig or such. It seems to be an interesting contradiction that reeks of scummy play. Then I find it interesting how when questioned about it he immediately transitions to "lynch the lurker". Quite the nice distraction for him, I believe.

Hey, please READ my last post regarding this. I didn't just come out with "NK-immune to all attacks" out of nowhere after my claim. It was there since the beginning.

Great, now we have 2 players who aren't doing anything useful. Guys, we are here because we actually WANT to play, so if you're not taking it seriously you're hurting us not only as TOWN but as PLAYERS.

[darkdude]

This is exactly the same play style I use in all my games.

I feel sad.

[darkdude]

First of all, may I ask what is "AtE"? I have never heard of this term before.

Now, refusing to talk means he's basically unreadable. If he's just doing this in this game, it would be easier dealt, but since this is his meta specialty, we are stuck because there is nothing to indicate that his behaviour is role-related. This is just pissing me off really, because there is no good solution. I think, however, if he stays like this (which is likely), it would be better to lynch him sooner than later. I'm positive that this unreadable behaviour will cause much havoc and distraction in lategame as we run out of tolerance for mislynches.

In the worse case, which is that he turns out town, I think we would be able to look at the pushers of the wagon for next day.

Not that I have made up my mind about this yet. Just that at this point I think if we have no more leads today lynching Chenhsi would be the alternative vs No Lynch.

[darkdude]

also, why do you consider no lynch a valid alternative, darkdude?

I don't.

It's something that has to be dealt with by players, rather than mod. I mean, seriously. You can't request someone else replaced just because you dislike it. So long as towns lack the balls to lynch lurkers, it's a valid strat.

The way I see cicero's ruleset, silence is no valid strategy. But since it doesn't look like our mod will interfere in this case, I guess we will have to deal with it.

i would rather get back to darkdude's "i can't be arrested by pigs meaning i cant get nightkilled" which sounds weird as hell to be honest.

Yeah sure, so why don't you start by asking something? Or are you going to keep trying to get other people to do things for you?

[darkdude]

There's a pretty solid difference between lynching a lurker as a default-lynch policy and lynching one right off the bat. While lurking isn't helpful, or even acceptable as consistent behavior, the fact remains that it doesn't really divulge much about Chen's alignment. I've never seen a strong correlation between lurking and alignment. Hell, I have had my days of unacceptable lurking as Town. If someone would like to present me something to prove me wrong, then by all means.

I don't think anyone who is voting for him wants his immediate death. Most likely they're just putting their vote on him instead of "Not voting" to make use of the vote.

[darkdude]

this bit is so rushing. a bit too early to say things like this. it bothers me. My problem is that I don't like either of the alternatives he's mentioned. I don't see why he should have even mentioned a no lynch in the first place.

I don't think it is commonly interpreted as rushing. Rather, if I voted for him without saying what I plan for the day it would seem more like I want to lynch him ASAP. Like I said, I personally put the vote there just to have my vote hopefully do something by adding pressure.

I mentioned No Lynch

because

it is the least ideal way to end a day. That should put some perspective on how much I'm "rushing" for Chenhsi's lynch.

[darkdude]

any lynch is better than a no lynch, that's understood. there was no need to compare the two, it doesn't add any perspective at all.

it reads more like you were trying to foist two alternatives, and then later retracted one and explained it as just being, 'for perspective.'

I never considered having No Lynch for today. If that's not how you personally read it, fine. I'm not going to try to change your manner of perception.

My statement clearly says that I support resorting to lynching the inactive should there be no better choice, as opposed to letting unmotivated players slip and ignored.

It seems we have alot of anti-town type people in this game. I could see the lynch of one based of that and just hoping they are also scum but not when we have alot of lurking going on.

Yes, that's why I don't think it's a fair issue for us to deal with. We can't simply lynch all the lurkers when we have two or three of them. However, I've been thinking about this, and I have come to the conclusion that it would be more likely to yield results if we pressure the inactive that's trying NOT to appear inactive. Chenhsi seems hell-bent on being useless, while Cubsfan seems trying to give some input when reminded of his inactivity. So I'll think I'll switch my vote back to where it was originally.

Unvote

Vote: Cubsfan4ever

[darkdude]

Well it is indeed interesting. I don't recall raider buddying up and helping me, but I think you're referring to when he asked "Does everyone agree he is town or scum?", which I now see could be seen as trying to reinforce a scum buddy's claim.

It's also interesting that your longest summary was on your own moves. I don't really think there is a need for someone to summarize their own play, and this is the first time I've seen this done. So I can't say if this is something out of the ordinary or just due to my inexperience.

I sort of agree with your feel on Ting, Fonz and Kison. It seems their style is to address issues when needed, but otherwise keep the posting to a minimum. For me it creates more ambiguity as it is difficult to read their pattern, and seems like their moves are more checked, calculated and filtered. Could be my paranoia, but I don't like this type of ambiguity.

About your specific case on Ting though, I'll need some more time to look over those pages again before I can evaluate it.

[darkdude]

He seems confident he's NK proof. A vig kill would merely test that, and if it failed, it would gain us an asset in having a confirmed human (well, mostly confirmed) that can't be NK'd. Course, it'd be annoying if the vig kill did succeed and he was human...

Uh...I'm positive that I am human, and not a chimpanzee, so I don't know what you're talking about

[darkdude]

@raider.

If he is the god father then as scum he would not pick himself to be nk'd. That would make him non night killable.

As I also said before if we have an SK or town night kill role that might be able to take him out, we just dont know though.

Dude, by this argument, you might as well call

all

scum, vigs and sk nk-immune.

You don't even know we have a godfather either, but you don't seem to have a problem with that.

Is there a point you're trying to make with this back and forth?

I think this is what Forbiddenlight is talking about.

Yeah, this sentence makes little sense. From what I know scum

could

claim NK immunity just because they don't kill themselves. Raider was suggesting the possibility that my claimed ability is false, while Ting assumes it was true in the argument. What they were arguing were two different things.

I don't get all this clamoring for a vig test to mean anything. If he is scum then it's most probable to assume he made that claim as a Godfather, knowing he would be vig proof and have NK immunity. Thus it gets "tested" he lives and his claim looks better. I really don't see how we could be more sure of him then than we could be right now.

But this makes little sense. You're just saying that even if my claimed abilities were true I could still be scum. Yeah that's right, but such logic is applicable in all situations. If I claim vanilla town you can say "he's scum". If I claim cop you can say "he's scum cop". If I claim doc you can say "scum doc". It doesn't really explain your perspective on my case.

[darkdude]

Try to make my gut feel a bit better about you Kison...I'd probably vote you if I had evidence.

Uh...I don't feel this is a very good sentence. What do you want him to do? Make you feel better about him? Okay why don't we have everyone feel good about everyone else?

Seems like you're trying to offer a way out of the argument for both yourself and Kison, the "feel better" being an incentive. And the last part "I'd probably vote you" is just an empty threat, as Raider said. If you had evidence, why wouldn't you vote for him?

[darkdude]

He wants us to prepare for it, but not discuss it?

lol Matin, I think it would be more to the point if you said you suspect me + Raider + Ennui as scum trios . Anyways, my reasoning was that I'm assuming I may not be the only special power role town has. I wanted to alert anyone else who needs the info about possible scum power roles. However discussing what these are and how many factions can't really help us now, and may actually help scum if anyone intentionally or unintentionally dropped any hints. I wanted to leave my role as a source of information for any of our power roles to make decisions on, not to have town start to guess setup on on Day 1.

I think cicero miscounted my vote; it was on Cubsfan. Anyways he's more active now and we have some new suspects, so

Unvote

Now, @ Ting:

Darkdude's claim would already have made any role with a killing ability (eg. vig) wary about targetting him. Raider's addition would have made any role with an investigative ability wary of targetting darkdude too.

So just because Raider said I may be investigation immune if I were scum, it was an anti-town move? I thought the general consensus WAS that if I were scum I would be godfather. I'm actually think you're scummy now because I have a hard time keeping up with your supposed reasoning. Earlier when I asked you the same thing, you responded:

You claimed nk-immunity. He said investigation-immunity. Suspecting a godfather is fine. Saying everyone agrees to either you being a good guy or a godfather? No one even brought it up.

Saying that you're going after him for trying to force a consensus (which he did earlier). I agreed that he seemed to have a thing for having everyone agree. But now you're saying something different. Seems to me that you're shifting reasons for going after him and do not have a consistent story.


@ the Ennui case

This post right here is pretty much where I stopped and said, "yep Ennui is scum." Why is he worried about the balance issues associated with a pro-town role? Shouldn't he be happy that the town has a role that's tough for scum to deal with? This in combination with the earlier post I quoted suggests a mentality of worry and frustration with a seemingly overpowered town role. Scummy.

This prompted me to read over Ennui's posts again, and it does seem like he started to probe setup after his 4th post in the game. Seems like he minded the setup more than the current scum hunting issues at hand. And he seems to be not so active as of late, after we made it clear we didn't want role fishing.

Vote: Ennui2778

I would like to see how he responds to this wagon. -2 to lynch should be enough.

[darkdude]

@ Fonz

Why Cubsfan? Sure he doesn't post much, but I haven't seen any real tells from him. What do you think of the people who are active, and particularly the top cases of the day, Ting and Ennui?

And what specifically about Raider that makes him suspect?

[darkdude]

While my alternative theory is clearly drawing great suspicion, I would like to direct your attention to those advocating a vig-direct. For, instead of simply exploring possibilities regarding the role, certain players advocated the outright killing of him, just to prove a point. I would ask you to reconsider who is scummier- he that would put forth a hypothesis or he that would direct a vig, (away from him/herself(that we don't even know exists) and kill a potentially great ally.

Interesting. I admit I forgot about your note of absence, but you don't seem to remember exactly what I did either.

For the last time, please let there be no confusion about whether I am only immune to scum attacks or not. My role explicitly says I am NK immune, which would imply all types of attacks.

Your defense is not very good IMHO.

[darkdude]

The contradiction definitely exists as the flavor he described is not entirely consistent with the role. He seems to say he has connections and cannot be arrested by pigs as the flavor but the role is he's completely NK immune. From the flavor, nothing would suggest he should be immune from all night attacks. I see it as a possible slip of trying to invent a fake flavor and getting restless.

Actually, I'm not sure how night kills will be explained flavour wise other than the fact that the scum will try to "arrest". If we have any other factions, how would you know that their killing method is incompatible with my immunity flavour-wise?

[darkdude]

Interesting. To me it seems like Ennui cracked under pressure. I don't believe his claim, because as pointed out by Goat, his claimed NK-immunity is quite different from mine. I assumed we have other power roles on our side, but not ANOTHER bulletproof (albeit one-shot).

Anyways, I said what I said about the nature of DD's "bulletproof" status because I had a feeling that his state of affairs was similar to my own, one-use-only piece of crap. I tried to spur discussion of it, because I felt that betraying the nature of my own roel would bring about suspicion, but that's already happened, so what the hell.

One problem with this. If you wanted to test our claims, you would have done so long time ago, when Raider asked you at post 133, here

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 57#1148857

And also, why would you doubt my claim if the first thing you said after my claim was "Soudns true to me."?

Also,

FOS Fonz

.

Ennui is getting scummier each post and he's saying he doesn't see ANY scum tells?

[darkdude]

@ Cass:

Why the quick switching of opinion? You unvoted him as soon as he supposedly mod quoted, and now you suspect him scum again?

@ Raider:

Actually, remember I said how my role leads me to believe there are scum power roles? This would be the case.

@ Fonz

Why are you only looking at the claim? As you and others have said, my claim (nor Ennui's) are not tells on their own. But if you take a look at Ennui's recent behaviour and the context of the claim you would find many holes and inconstancies. I'm really liking my FOS on you now. Maybe you would like to explain why the case we have on his doesn't fit with you?

[darkdude]

I love it when they crack under pressure. Sorry, newbie.

I hope our mod gets back soon.

Oh and what's this about me + Ennui being scum buddies? Sorry I'm kinda busy now but I'll reread the latest three pages tomorrow. I have only skimmed over the important stuff just now.

[darkdude]

Dammit, I guess my WIFOM attempt failed completely.

I'm sorry to say that my regular computer got a fatal virus. Actually not so fatal, but everything works fine except my browsers. I'm going to get it fixed in a couple of days or so. Meanwhile I'll be rereading the last few pages during my few spare minutes at work. So I'll be back in a two or three days. If it takes any longer I'll ask for replacement. Or, if three days is too long our mod can replace me right now.

[darkdude]

Oh and just my final thoughts since yesterday:

FOS Fonz for not seeing Ennui as scum - AT ALL
FOS Cass for unvoting, then going against Ennui but not revoting

I was agreeing with Forbidden light on Ting's behaviour, but now that wagon is pointless. But perhaps FL could explain more of her thoughts now that Ting flipped town. I myself certainly don't see why Ting did what he did as town.

And I'm not sure what to do with Ennui's supposed hint cause at the moment it seems too clouded by WIFOM. I'll post more on that after rereading the entire context of things.

[darkdude]

kk, My computer should be back alive soon. But I have some urgent stuff right now that I think everyone must know before I post my full analysis.

I must say that I DO NOT LIKE how you guys rushed through Day 2. WTF?! And while I was flipping through pages 20+, I was afraid you guys were going to lynch any minute. Guys, slow down!!

I know I have no right to criticize you guys for your reasoning AFTER Cubs flipped town, but while I was reading it I was going to argue the case that I did not think Ennui's word should condemn someone as scum. Initially I thought he was telling the truth, but after I read the pages of Day 2 I began to doubt. Going back, it seemed that Ennui's words suggested that I was his partner more than any one else, with "shoot him twice" and all that. Therefore I now think that most likely he was trying to screw town over with some random ramblings, hoping either to get ME lynched, or cause quite a bit of confusion, to buy some night kills for his partner. As opposed to exposing his partner, which he could have did by naming him. I think he was frustrated, yes, but not so much as to be an asshole and ruin the game. Because he could easily have done that without causing so much confusion and ambiguity.

Now, onto today:

I do not believe Forbidden Light's claim. Seems TOO convenient that her kills had no game changing effects. You would think the flavour would say something like "The pigs busted open Llama's door but found him already dead".

Her story's flavour seem to suggest a lot of things, but I strongly believe that MY story contradict it. My flavour says that, again, I cannot be arrested by the cops. As pointed out many times before in cases against me, IF there is a vig who kills it should go right through my protection. The only logical explanation is that there IS NO VIG. I was not so sure until I saw the results of Night 2. There has consistently been only 2 arrests, one by each scum group. I DO NOT BELIEVE VIG at all.

Even before this I had a case against FL. Please await my next post with full summary of what I think makes her scum from her behaviour since the latter part of Day 1.

[darkdude]

And I suggest mass claim because as Goat said, it seems like Lynch or Lose today. We should take no chances.

And the fact that no scum pair has hammered Fonz yet (before FL unvoted) would suggest that at least one of the following are scum:

Fonz Cass, or FL.

Actually, maybe not, as Matin has been away...

[darkdude]

Wait, I need to clarify what I said before someone gets lynched.

FIRST OF ALL,

I suggest we not vote until we have come to a consent with FOSs because it is LyLo.

Now second, my case against FL is still not finished, but what I originally said was this:

I cannot be arrested by pigs. My role says it means I am NK immune. This implies all killings are done by arrests. FL claims to actually KILL, not ARREST, therefore I doubt the claim.

And now Fonz also put a case against FL with his claim. How the hell does he protect against FL's "vig kills" if he's a lawyer? Does his role say that he can only protect people from pigs? NO!

FL is scum.

[darkdude]

And regarding FL's "4 to hammer, not 3", she missed the fact that Ennui showed that scum operate in pairs. If none of the people on Fonz's wagon nor Fonz himself were scum, then the two remaining pair of scum can just hop on when he was at -2 to end the day and win.

[darkdude]

This has to be the dumbest case in the universe I've ever seen. Can you please tell me how a crew's vig would arrest people? And also the fact I've been tracked as targeting you with my shot, and we had two arrests last night anyway, pretty much shows you are desperate for my lynch since you know I'm confirmed.

Exactly. The VIG DOES NOT EXIST. Which is why your night actions had no visible effects.

You are not confirmed, at least when I just skimmed over the posts. I will fully read everything today and give that promised analysis.

I beg everyone to UNVOTE. I'm worried how the votes are flying all over the place. Ennui claimed the scum worked in partners, which is what we assume to be true now. That means if any town gets to -2 by either the other townies or Ennui's partner, the remaining two scum will hop on the wagon and win.

[darkdude]

That's making a lot of assumption. The Fonz isn't scum, and that Cass isn't scum.

That's only assuming we have at least one pair of scum left, which was indicated by Ennui.

HOW DO YOU KNOW FONZ AND CASS AREN'T SCUM?

[darkdude]

The whole point of my argument is that AT LEAST ONE of three: Fonz, Cass and Forbiddenlight, must be scum, seeing as if they are NOT, then the two remaining scum will hop on the bandwagon, lynch Fonz and win.

[darkdude]

Okay, I found Goat's claim.

I'm going to go ahead and claim, since I see no reason not to complete the mass claim.

I'm Ronnie Ravioli. I'm the crew's watcher/tracker.

Each night I can keep an eye on someone and make sure they aren't working against the crew, or make sure they aren't worked over by the pigs.

Night 1, I tracked Ting. He did not target anyone.

Night 2, I tracked forbiddan. I can confirm that she did target DD last night.

I haven't made any decisions yet about who I'm going to watch or track tonight. That's going to depend on the results of today's lynch.

I will bet that Goat + Forbidden is the scum pair.

We have seen from Ennui that the scum has a tracker. Since apparently there are 2 pairs of scum, the other scum team likely has the SAME ROLE.

It would work with the fact that Goat just confirmed Forbidden.

One of them must die today.

[darkdude]

DD, we pretty much are sure is scum.

How, cause your scumbuddy Goat confirmed you? He is probably a tracker, but he did not investigate you.

Town + Ennui's partner, who are Fonz, Cass and Matin, what do you think of my reasoning? I shall write it again.

I AM NOT ABLE TO BE KILLED BY ARREST.

+

I CANNOT BE NKed, PERIOD.

=

I CANNOT BE KILLED BY ARREST WHICH IS THE ONLY NK METHOD

[darkdude]

You'd lose that bet. Honestly, I don't think that the scum teams have the same roles. We'd need a mirror for my role too. Given I was roleblocked and my vig failed on llamafluff, why was there still an arrest?

I strongly believe the pairs have IDENTICAL ROLES. Makes sense balance wise.

You are not vig, you are the partner of the Scum Tracker, whose role we unfortunately do not know.

[darkdude]

Fine, we lynch Goat. They are Scum buddies I am sure, and it would make no difference as far as I can tell.

Goat can attack me all she likes I don't give a damn because she is no vig. If she actually directs her scum NK at me, all the better for us because that would mean one less dead player.

[darkdude]

My role is too well confirmed.

No, ONLY BY GOAT, which claimed tracker.

If I actually missed it, please point out where someone else confirmed you.

[darkdude]

No, ONLY BY GOAT, which claimed tracker.

I mean "who", of course.

[darkdude]

Goat isn't attacking you. I am. Goat's also male. And no, it'll be one dead scum no matter what side I'm on. I am a vig though, and killing goat, probably the other most likely to be town player will end up in a cop victory anyway, which is what you want.

Mis typed during my posting frenzie. I did indeed mean you.

[darkdude]

Uh...why isn't anyone responding yet (other than the scum)

TELL ME WHAT YOU THINK OF MY FL + GOAT THEORY PLEASE.

[darkdude]

Yes, the vig who never does anything with her powers cause she has none.

[darkdude]

Both vig attempts failed, but at least I shattered your armor. You die tonight, whether you like it or not, scum.

This is irrelevant to town though as we will lose whether or not I am a one-shot immune or not. If I live tomorrow there won't be anyone to lynch you.

I was going to have a full page write up about your past behaviour but it's kind of redundant now. The key points were:

You tried to get me lynched on Day 1 after the Ennui incident. Rushing a lynch like that is never good.

Kison was on your tail and he died.

Your little mishap about investigations earlier on day 1

on Day 2 how you wanted to hammer Cubs but waited for someone else to do it.


All these points are now overshadowed by the clear evidence that you are no vig. False claim.

I believe Fonz. Why do you not think that he is telling the truth?

[darkdude]

Oh, so now you aren't so sure about your bulletproof protection? I think this is a bit of a confession.

Nope, I'm confident that if we don't lynch either you or Goat today I'll wake up still alive, but unable to win.

When you are lynching scum it is.

You yourself said that the case against me at that point was completely WIFOM. You were not sure at all.

Scum.

[darkdude]

You didn't care cause you wanted to lynch fast. If you didn't care why the hell would you push a quick lynch based COMPLETELY ON WIFOM as town? There is no answer, because the only motivation is for scum.

BEING THE VIG, would have tested me starting Night 1 if you wanted me lynched, NOT ATTACK LLAMMA.

We will see what the others say about me being scummy. I'm just skimming over your bullshit to find the incriminating parts, so you don't have to waste finger time to type that lol.

I'd lynch you today if I didn't think it'd make us lose because the other cop group moves in.

You believe I am Ennui's partner then? Why not one of the remaining pair? And if I am not then who would be Fonz's partner?

[darkdude]

And about flavour:

It's Me + Fonz's word against yours and Goat's.

One of us is a scum pair, that is for sure. And with the previous deduction based on Fonz at -2, at least one scum is between you and Fonz. I believe fonz. You are scum.

[darkdude]

At least 2 players who have claimed to be a power role are scum. One of those is obviously darkdude.

Based on what? Oh yes, FL's claim, which is confirmed by you. But what else? Surely if I am scum I would have slipped elsewhere. And if FL's claim is true, that means Fonz is my scum buddy, because his flavour goes against FL's as well. Where's Ennui's partner then? Cass? Matin?

[darkdude]

I hope the others can properly catch with all these posts lol.

I'll be off now to install new stuff on my computer that just recovered from a virus attack. Debating in real time on MS was not what I had originally in mind lol.

[darkdude]

I'm twice confirmed. With 3 scum, one opposing the other two, There is NO FUCKING WAY I'D GET TWO PEOPLE VERIFYING MY ACTIONS! GIVE IT UP AND SCUM HUNT IF YOU AREN'T SCUM.

Who's the second one that verified your action? Surely you're not begging the question by basing the second source on your assumption that I am scum?

[darkdude]

Hang on a second. My PM told me, specifically, that I could stop non-arrest kills.

Didn't read that part, as I said I was still skimming over. I was actually on the assumption of the opposite because I didn't see that.

My role says what I have said it does. If that makes you think I am scum, then go ahead.

I don't see why you didn't point this out earlier though, because I have already said this on Day 1.

Btw, the frantic attempts of DD to tie himself to me should be a fairly good indicator that I am not his partner (WIFOM possibilities acknowledged).

That is only because I assumed your flavour goes against FL's.

[darkdude]

Wait, so you all believe that I am scum now? Because I was hoping to see what Matin was going to say.

[darkdude]

Except that my flavour explicitly acknowledges that kills other than arrests are possible.

Did you read the part where I said I did not notice?

I've been posting a breakneck pace because of the almost real-time argument with FL. If you want to take that as "panicking"...be my guest.

Even if Fonz's flavour does not oppose but rather confirms FL, I remain suspicious. All she's been doing is trying to get different people lynched for bad reasons.

[darkdude]

For those thinking of scum doctors and role blockers...

What do you think is more likely, a scum TRACKER, a role which has been proven to exist for one of the two scum pairs, or a new scum power role which doesn't necessarily balance the tracker...? I really can't see how one scum team with a tracker and the other with a doc or a blocker is more likely than two identical scum groups.

[darkdude]

Okay, before a town gets lynched, I'm going to take you all hostage....I hate being a terrorist but oh well...

I claim scum. I am Ennui's partner and the Godfather for our team.

What I know is:

There are two pairs of scum. One of each pair is a GF and the other is a Tracker. Both have a One-shot NK immunity.

ForbiddenLight did NOT attack me last night, because Cicero took away my NK immunity on Night 2 as a penalty for my absence (I had begged him to not have me replaced while my computer was unusable due to virus). If FL is telling the truth, I would be dead by now.

I am 100% sure Goat and FL are the remaining scum pair.

There is no way for me to win any more, so I just want to get revenge on FL for the bullshit I had to put up with


Now, what to do:

You cannot lynch me. Doing so will cause town to lose.

I will not stand for any lynch other than Goat's. If someone else gets lynched I shall NK Fonz and you will lose.

I ask Fonz to protect me for one night. Tonight I will attack FL and destroy her one-shot NK immunity. Night 4 I will attack her again, and she can kill me, and town will win!

[darkdude]

No, because you see, whether I NK scum, town, or no one at all, town will lose because Matin is town. I get NKed, and it's 2v2 tomorrow.

I will personally let FL and Goat win if you manage to let them snatch victory from the jaws of defeat, because they deserve it.

If you lynch Matin you lose. In fact, unless you lynch either FL or Goat, you will lose unless you let me make use of my NK for cross killing. And don't expect that because I TOLD you not to lynch Matin.

FL is only riding on Goat's confirmation, which cannot be trusted since they are scum buddies. I don't see what's so difficult to understand about that.

[darkdude]

He's admitted himself to be scum in a WIFOM game.

Oh yes, so to counter my argument, you allow the possibility that I am still town?

You are not scum hunting. You are just shooting down anyone opposing you to survive.

[darkdude]

I AM CONFIRMED BY CASS AND GOAT! ARE YOU GOING TO TELL ME ALL OF US ARE SCUM TOGETHER!?

No, Cass blocked you and nothing happened because you had no vig kill anyways.

[darkdude]

They get one-shot protection so that crosskills would be inhibited. That's the point of the mechanic.

THERE IS NO VIG.

I know for a fact that FL is lying, and I am 100% sure the other scum pair has a Tracker, which Goat claimed.

Coincidentally

, he also confirmed FL....

[darkdude]

Nah, I'm scum hunting. We found you right (before you admitted to it)? The trick is finding the other two scum and figuring out which is the right lynch. And of COURSE I'm trying to survive. If I die, a townie, I lose, because town loses. Then you lose, because the cops on the other side will kill you (assuming you really are Ennui's partner), and it's no good for anyone.

No, you knew I was scum because you are the GF and you could see how I, who have the same abilities as yourself, could pull off the bulletproof claim.

[darkdude]

Hmmph, one problem. I claimed a vig kill, and it failed. She claimed to have blocked me, which would explain the fail. How does this work again? I didn't even know there was a roleblocker til she claimed, AFTER I had claimed vig and enumerated my attempts. So, really, if I'm scum, who am I with? Both support my claim pretty damn well.

The point here is that ORIGINALLY, you claimed that "arrest comes before kills". Your claim would have worked regardless of whether it was blocked or not.

[darkdude]

And you might try getting on my good side for once. You do know that I play a significant role in both scum and town victory now.

The whole reason that I'm helping town is that my fucking partner was an asshole, and now I have to put up with some stupid logic that makes no sense which you repeat over and over again.

[darkdude]

Well I think Goat is the tracker, since he claimed one. We don't know who is GF because there are no investigation results.

[darkdude]

I honestly thought it was arrests first.

No, you said Cicero said that. If you got blocked, you would have said "Cicero said my attack was blocked". Instead you said "Cicero said my attack failed because arrest comes before kills".

[darkdude]

WHY THE FUCK WOULD WE BELIEVE SCUM!? I still could see Goat as scum, but he's unaffiliated with me.

If goat is scum it would confirm you as his partner as he tried to confirm you town.

[darkdude]

You're scum alright. You're throwing crazy theories everywhere. Like I said, you're not scum hunting, you're just trying to fend off everyone else's blows against you. A town would NOT do that by acknowledging contradicting theories.

[darkdude]

So did Cass.

Logic fail.

[darkdude]

Why would I acknowledge a completely WRONG contradictory theory?

You just did, quite a few times, while trying to defend yourself.

You acknowledged that I may have a partner, despite it being clearly established that I am NOT getting lynched today because everyone knows I'm Ennui's partner. If you think I am scum but not Ennui's partner, then why not lynch me instead of vigging me?

You acknowledged that Goat may be scum, even though there is no other evidence other than my word. If you did not believe me, you wouldn't think Goat is scum.

You keep twisting your story about your confirmation. You are not confirmed except by your scum buddy.

You said you pushed for my lynch Day 1 because you somehow KNEW I was scum, yet you did not attempt to NK me and instead supposedly NKed Llama. It is also contradicted by your statement at the time: "the case against DD is completely WIFOM".

[darkdude]

Now, for the sake of logic, please do not bring up the point about Cass confirming you now that she herself has denied it.

Just because you got blocked and nothing happened does not mean you actually had a action. Because if that were the case every blocker would go "Hey I found SK" when they block a vanilla.

[darkdude]

Goat/FL will probably attempt to kill me anyways, which is why I asked Fonz for protection so that I can live to do more cross killing.

Ironic, really. I am not more of a vig than FL ever was.

[darkdude]

Ironic, really. I am not more of a vig than FL ever was.

That should say

"I am now more of a vig than FL ever was."

[darkdude]

This is fine by me. I was gonna shoot the oinking liar out of spite anyway.

Did you notice that you've been saying "fine by me" a lot today?

@DD: I concluded she's the tracker, because I blocked her and yet the arrest did go through. I assume she was tracking and the GF was arresting. If Goat only claimed to confirm FL, there's no reason to believe his claim.

I'll tell you how scum kills work then:

The GF picks either himself or the tracker to make the kill. This is so that

A) they may get role blocked
B) they may get tracked.

Logically the GF will not risk having herself tracked, so she make her partner, the tracker, kill instead.

[darkdude]

Because
I
Fucking
Don't
Care
Any
Fucking
More!
I want scum dead today, I want to SHOOT scum tonight, and I want the fucking town to win. Whatever you all freaking decide works is FINE
BY
ME!

You better care, because if you're really vig then lynching the wrong person would cause you to lose.

By oh wait, you're just scum, so yeah, anyone is fine.

[darkdude]

And you want Cass to block me. Now why would you do that if you're all keeping me alive just so I could NK and crosskill?

...Maybe because I'll NK you? But you shouldn't worry too much; you still have the bulletproof vest.

[darkdude]

Because if you aren't Ennui's partner, you kill town and basically make us lose.

If I'm not Ennui's partner, you all stand no chance keeping me alive, unless you find my partner who doesn't exist.

[darkdude]

I expect FL to vig DD tonight. I won't say who I'll block, Fonz shouldn't say who he protects.

You believe FL is vig then? How would that work seeing it's my word against hers and Goat's, whom you think is scum?

[darkdude]

FL will probably kill me with her scum shot tonight though. That's why once again I ask for Fonz's protection because I want to finish off the most annoying scum I've ever seen.

[darkdude]

I still come out the cleanest given the interaction of the roles.

No way. Your team is still hiding tricks up your sleeves. I just followed Ennui's lead and confessed.

You don't seem to get the fact that whether your vig succeeds or not it will be redundant if town is at a loss at that point. That is why there is no use of waiting for that proof. We need to decide right now who is telling the truth. If we wait for proof it means we believe you, because if you're lying then we would have already lost by the time we have proof that you are no vig.

[darkdude]

Fonz, you'd be an idiot to do this. You'd be selling the game to Darkdude, since this is the only way he can win. Let me vig him.

I can win? I can't win. There is no way. If I live they'll just lynch me off.

I'm just asking him a favour so that I can finish off your fucking annoying ass with my own hands.

[darkdude]

Only annoying because I'm the reason you are going to completely lose.

Not really. I lost the moment Ennui became an asshole and couldn't take a simple bus. Maybe even before that. I'm not the greatest scum player you know.

Well, you SHOULD believe me. I'm the vig.

Wow, I am simply amazed at your air-tight logic.

[darkdude]

In case you haven't noticed I'm helping town to win, Cass....

I've always been having a town mindset ever since the Ennui incident because there was no realistic scenario for me to achieve victory.

I really like how FL jumps all over the place.

[darkdude]

By the way, I hope you guys will believe me after Goat flips scum. I need to finish off FL with a vengeance!

Vote: Goatrevolt

[darkdude]

L-1. Hope we aren't being fucking stupid. I'm beginning to have second thoughts and prefer my plan.

Of course you do.

[darkdude]

I don't trust scum, no matter what they say. I feel better about my plan, but I'm willing to kill goat. My vote says that.

Biggest scum tell ever....if that matters at this stage.

[darkdude]

imo, the Doctor role and Fonz make total sense with two killing groups, so he should probably be the only untouchable one.

And role blocker made no sense given that scums killed by specifying the killer?

Come on now, don't let FL and Goat win...

Yeah I'm defending her, but I know for a fact that you three, Cass, Fonz and Matin, are what you claim you are...or at least town.

[darkdude]

Oh? How so?

You're saying one thing but concede to another. If you really thought lynching me was the best option, you would push for that.

@ Matin:

If you think me and Cass are buddies, why not lynch me then? And who would be Ennui's partner?

[darkdude]

SCREW IT! I'm Unvote, vote(ing) Cass, and I'll STAY there til the game ends for better or for worse. I'm done flipping around and ignoring my intuition.

ROFL

[darkdude]

You don't believe my word that Goat and FL are the scum pair?

[darkdude]

Idiot, if we lynch you, Cass just roleblocks for the win.

If she were scum, I doubt that her claim would be true.

And why would she "confirm" you if she were scum?

And Fonz pointed out earlier, assuming everyone is telling the truth when claiming is certainly pretty stupid for a town player.

[darkdude]

Why the FUCK would we believe scum's word? You've admitted to being scum, and Matin actually makes the most sense to me through action and word.

Doesn't matter. If anyone but Goat gets lynched today, I'm killing off Fonz, and since you're just

coincidentally

lynching off your blocker, there would be no one to stop me.

[darkdude]

If he's Ennui's partner, we eliminate a killing team and have power roles to block night kills and can lynch FL or Goat tomorrow.

You have a 50% chance of winning that way.

[darkdude]

Why me or goat? Just because he's scum with no way out doesn't mean he doesn't have the town's best interests at heart. If we lynch DD today, and he is En's partner, then you have to choose whether we chance me shooting someone or not. And then we have to figure out how the night actions will play out to determine who is scum. It ends up being my plan except making me look bad.

I'm pretty sure that I, being the one who has no practical chance at victory, would have a much better value with words than you, who already displayed lots of flip flopping scum behaviour.

[darkdude]

A little less than that, actually. I'm town. I don't know if goat is. It's really a 25% chance. Lynching me is auto lose. Lynching goat is 50/50 scum/town. If I vig, I think we almost certainly lose, but I can't be sure of that. It would confirm me though if my shot went through, which it should if no one fucks with me.

Useless. We both know that if we let you live tomorrow it would prove that you're scum, but if we hit town today town will not have majority to vote you off.

[darkdude]

I don't now, it's just tough to believe your mutual defense of one another right now..

Want me to defend you ?

I could, since I know that you are town. You would do the same if you were me, you must understand.

[darkdude]

Nah, kingmaker is a viable choice. You have no chance of victory, but since you ARE aligned against town, you can still get second so to speak by fucking over the town hard. Fucking over the other cop team lacks this guarantee. I really think killing Cass is the best bet, and let the chips fall as they will. I'll kill Dark, he'll either kill me or fonz (I'd advise fonz to guard himself if he can, and whether you can or not, claim that you can), and the other scum group...well, we chance that. If we have 2 scum it'll be F3 with any luck and we'll win. Because I'll be confirmed through my shot.

Actually, I feel much more satisfied screwing you over cause you're so damn annoying.

[darkdude]

Which is admitting to screw town over. SEriously, if you want to realize what's annoying, it's having to defend CONFIRMED FUCKING SCUM ACCUSATIONS THAT THE FUCKING TOWN IS DUMB ENOUGH TO ACTUALLY BELIEVE JUST BECAUSE THE GUY IS POSSIBLY HONEST ABOUT ONE FACTOR. GOD this is such a clusterfuck.

I personally think it's more likely that someone who's fucked over since the beginning such as myself, would find it much more satisfying if the other scum pair did not abuse the advantage and claim victory.

If you do believe I am Ennui's partner, that much should be clear.

[darkdude]

Why am I not at all surprised?

The only way now is to convince all the townies to go with me and lynch one of the scum pair.

[darkdude]

I was really pissed at that point that half the "town" was dumb enough (me included for a bit) to trust confirmed scum.

Contradiction. You didn't trust me at all, but you tried to bus Goat anyways thinking it would make you look better. Then when you saw that Matin wasn't buying me, you unvoted because without you bussing, I now have to convince all 3 of the town, as opposed to 2.

Unless Goat wishes to suicide of course...

Darkdude is obviously lying. The only way he'd know if both scum groups had the same abilities is if he was part of the non-Ennui scum team, so when he says he's Ennui's scum buddy, that's lie number one.

Wrong. Logic fail.

I'm the godfather, and I know the setup contains 2 teams of identical scum pairs. I am the GF and Ennui was the Tracker. You claimed tracker, which was a semi-fake claim because you're actually the scum tracker with FL as the GF.

[darkdude]

*Facepalm*

I actually thought you were scum, Forbidden. Please excuse my animosity towards you in the last few pages. That was actually feigned in an attempt to get you lynched.

That Cicero took away my NK immunity was a lie. I just couldn't believe the Vig claim.

I was right about Goat being scum tracker though.

Guys, let's nominate this for "Most enjoyable mini"?

[darkdude]

Yeah. FL, our only chance there was to shoot one of the other two, and hope the one we shot didn't have a BPV...

Both of them still had their protection. It would only work if we either lynch one of them or BOTH me and FL shoot the same scum.

[darkdude]

I had the MF setup worked out! And... you go and... put a town player at L-1...

What's MF?

I was talking to Goat just now after the reveal. Both had BPVs...Cic used mirror teams.

Exactly. Should have listened to the last spartan!

[darkdude]

I had gut feeling Matin was scum...but FL's claim was just too incredible.

I based my kills on whom I thought were scum, but even though Ting suggested NK immune GF he wasn't actually scum, and Raider's flip floppy activity didn't turn out to be scum either.

Worst of all my partner dropped dead on Day 1 and couldn't take a simple bussing.

[darkdude]

Never listen to scum and lynch (shoot) all liars. Couldn't have, just policy thar

If you listened you would have lynched Goat...

[darkdude]

So, what do you say, guys?

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 31#1174331

[darkdude]

Now the quote that everyone missed (me too)

No...I pointed it out, and someone did before me. It didn't lynch me though.

[darkdude]

Night 2 I actually watched Darkdude to find the vig. I just claimed a track on forbiddan instead, because watching DD was kind of an anti-town way to use my role.

Eh...you should have tracked me Night 1. If I were Ennui's partner you would have known then and there.

And tracking me isn't really anti town because everyone was suspicious of my claim.

[darkdude]

I think the idea behind the game was for the cops to arrest each other. Seems like the only way we really would have had a chance.

Yeah but all cops had one-shot NK immunities. When the game started I didn't want to target other cops until the end because I thought killing off town was more beneficial. However with Ennui dropping dead the cops with NK immunity was much more of a threat, and I tried to NK them, but obviously in vain.

Because we were stupid, namely myself, because I refused to trust scum who actually WAS trying to scrape a town win.

My plan in the end was to either let town win or salvage my own victory should the unlikely circumstances arise.

[darkdude]

We already knew you were Ennui's partner. It was just vastly to our advantage to force down a Cubsfan mislynch instead.

But why track me Night 2 then?

[darkdude]

I was super confirmed given Cass, Fonz', and Goat's backing me up. We couldn't all be scum.

Oh, I really did doubt that though. Goat's confirmation, as I said, can't be trusted because he was scum tracker. Cass blocked you Night 1, but that doesn't mean anything if you were scum, because you wouldn't have had that vig kill anyways.

Cicero said that I would not be notified if my NK immunity was used up. If I were notified I would have believed you.

[darkdude]

I think there should have been more crosskillings though. The bulletproof vests sort of discouraged that.

[darkdude]

Yeah, but it would imply there wouldn't have been a kill that night. But either way, the third one given the Fonz' rules, should have sold you.

No but you see, I thought Cass could only block the arrest if FL was chosen to make that arrest. It could have been Goat.

Or did I read wrong?

[darkdude]

I say only one BPV scum role per pair, and cut down one or two of the town power roles.

[darkdude]

That's possible, which is why Cass wasn't enough, I agree. But the Fonz angle should have sold you.

What, the part where he said he could also protect from shootings and not only arrests?

[darkdude]

Then darkie would have pressed the case on me. I would have been lynched after you were shown scum. There would be 2 kills that night unless Cass honestly thought I wasn't scum (not likely).

He makes a good point though. That was very close for town if you think that there wasn't any crosskills in a game where there were supposed to be some.

[darkdude]

Yep. You can't say both Fonz AND Goat were my partners.

Only based on interpretation though. I mean by that logic I should have figured from my role PM there was a vig, you know, with the ninjutsu and all that. But I thought it was cicero's way or obscuring our guesses at possible factions just by looking at the flavour text.

[darkdude]

DD only was obvious as scum after I saw Matin's role and realized that DD claiming bulletproof as a 1-shot NK immune godfather was a decent idea.

If Ennui survived better then I was planning for him to hunt down those who reacted scummy to my claim. But it didn't work out, obviously.

So do you guys think my claim was good or not?

[darkdude]

I get roleblocked, or Fonz protects, I get lynched for some godforsaken reason being linked to you.

I was going to arrest you though.

[darkdude]

I get roleblocked, or Fonz protects, I get lynched for some godforsaken reason being linked to you.

I was going to arrest you though.

That wouldn't have happened. Cass would have roleblocked DD. Fonz would have protected you.

Would that still happen after you flip scum though? Maybe they would have bought my theory on FL being scumbuddies with you?

[darkdude]

Yeah, that's possible too. It depends on what Cass and Fonz thought. And what would have been the point of arresting me if I were scum? I'd supposedly be bulletproof.

If you were scum then that means the vig kill never happened. I may have had enough time to kill you if we both had BPVs...

[darkdude]

The only issue with the claim was that it outed you to the other scum group. The other scum group only had to then do something like suggest you get shot with a vig twice and you were dead. If there hadn't been another scum group with equivalent roles, then it would have likely worked for you.

Yep, I thought of this before me and Ennui swapped role PMs. But even after I concluded that we had 2 identical pairs of scums I still thought it was worth a try. If the other team bought my bluff, it would have prevented them from attempting to NK me...

Though it would be futile against anyone who thought about it for a few moments

[darkdude]

If you were scum and we lynched Goat, I would probably kill a town player and force the remaining two players to choose which one of us would win. I doubt we would have been blocked as town was hoping for crosskills.

[darkdude]

Well actually, town could still have won because they had a doctor and a blocker (assuming Matin was vanilla).

Anyways, good game all!

THIS IS SPARTA!!!

[darkdude]

Oh and Cicero, I think if you want to use this setup again you might consider giving less hints in the flavour text about roles.

Also, allow the scum to do No Kill...

[darkdude]

And the fact that no one realized I was instrumental in town's vote, whether they liked it or not....