Open 847 - Trust Fall [Game Over]

[chavela]

I really wanted to vote Meuh but I guess I won't

good

[chavela]

[chavela]

You're good

thankyou! i mean, it's also possible you saw that potential mafia angle and then thought it was worth more to you to deflate it but it seems more likely good yeah

[chavela]

me

maybe pav

six or so others

[chavela]

Prism told Enchant that in game thread instead of in in a scum thread.
Enchant confirmed town ez.

? could we explain the thought process here please

[chavela]

hello chavella =]

hi, +)

[chavela]

Prism told Enchant that in game thread instead of in in a scum thread.
Enchant confirmed town ez.

? could we explain the thought process here please

M O D I N T E R F E R E N C E

but...

why would prism ever not say that in game thread? when the taking the opportunity part obviously applies to everyone

like it's hard for me to understand how you would have had this thought here

[chavela]

Oh no they are on to me.

...

are you just not going to explain why you had that thought though

[chavela]

i guess i do not get it

[chavela]

Enchant you were much more active in RVS during our previous game.

do you think being more active than usual in trust fall would be town indicative?

[chavela]

Enchant you were much more active in RVS during our previous game.

do you think being more active than usual in trust fall would be town indicative?

I've never played trust fall before.

well what would you assume from your current knowledge of the setup?

[chavela]

especially early with regards to the more active than usual,

[chavela]

No idea.
I haven't even read any previous games on this except for that meme one where scum just asked someone to trust them in page 1 and they did.

hm

[chavela]

i assume you are talking about the not mafia + hydra i was technically a part of game

[chavela]

Do you think asking me what i know about this setup is alignment indicative for me?

? i think how you think about it now when trying to do so is potentially alignment indicative yes

[chavela]

Do you think asking me what i know about this setup is alignment indicative for me?

? i think how you think about it now when trying to do so is potentially alignment indicative yes

like you are questioning enchant's lower activity this rvs right

without considering if that would be more or less likely to be scum indicative here

so i was trying to see if you'd put more thoughts towards it

[chavela]

My thinking is that Enchant is an player that thinks of themselves as limbait, but they were very active in day 1 RVS in a previous game as a town player. So my thinking is that scum!Enchant would be much less active because they would be afraid to talk as they see their own posts as their worst enemy. And thus would try to limit their early influence until they get an better footing in the game.

hmhmhm,

it is like, i can kinda this thought process but i also don't really see how engaging enchant about enchant's lack of activity in rvs leads to solving the quandary when could engage enchant about anything right

[chavela]

shiki do you have throughts on my idea in 61

i mean, that's general incentive for those players to remain in game and try to pair others instead of themselfs

but it can be hard for others to believe in them,

like someone could just burn their trust for the day on me right now and confirm me town if they want,

unless anyone really thinks i would stay in game as mafia,

but also don't really expect anyone right now to be sure enough i am town for that,

so it's like, an over time thing

[chavela]

It might if you had waited instead of immediately questioning the question.

...

infinitely less value in that then just engaging enchant on other subjects whenever the opportunity presents itself

like if you fear that enchant is going to have limited activity

then giving enchant the opportunity to burn that limited activity on talking to you about their limited activity is kinda ... !!! right

[chavela]

Ok so Shiki=Chavela?

ye

[chavela]

"oh, I'm scum, let's just post less"

hello!

do you not think that scum might think 'oh i'm scum, i need to post more' here though?

and what do you think about norwegianboyee seemingly not considering this?

[chavela]

like scum just need to get townread strongly by one person and get out yeah, to avoid having to really grind the game out,

[chavela]

like scum just need to get townread strongly by one person and get out yeah, to avoid having to really grind the game out,

This is not a terrible strat for either alignment imo

the difficulty with it as town is that... mafia are somewhat likely to be the one strongly townreading you yeah? so encouraging town to just find the obvtowns causes an unideal situation i think

so it's generally better for the towns to try to sort everyone to not give mafia ability to just pair with widely townread player that is misreading them,

but i've also put a lot of thought into this game from the mafia perspective as i have played multiple previous versions as mafia so maybe that is messing up my view of the game,

[chavela]

I think that's deserved for wanting to lim me

...

voting you would be offering a trust fall

there are not eliminations in this game

[chavela]

voting you would be offering a trust fall

this is why that was kinda good post from pavowski

because it takes away the mafia's ability to come into game

rvs someone and be like

oops i didn't know guess i'm stuck with this as my offer for the day

and shape approach around that

[chavela]

To be clear I'm aware of the mechanics, but vote tags are not explicitly discussed in the setup so I wasn't sure if it would count or not and decided to err on the side of caution

yes they are?

vote tags are explicitly said to be counted as trusts

[chavela]

Know what is cool about this setup i just realized.
I literally don’t need to care about what the majority thinks.
WOOO

this is not good in general and leads to towns throwing and/or many frustrated players

[chavela]

To be clear I'm aware of the mechanics, but vote tags are not explicitly discussed in the setup so I wasn't sure if it would count or not and decided to err on the side of caution

yes they are?

vote tags are explicitly said to be counted as trusts

Trust votes must not be spoilered and should be in an unambiguous format such as VOTE: Player, Vote: Player, I trust Player, Trust: Player, Offer: Player, Accept: Player, HEAL: Player etc. Abbreviating someone's name is acceptable, so long as I can discern who you were voting for without trouble. If I think it should count as a vote or trust, it will.

predit: yeah

[chavela]

To be clear I'm aware of the mechanics, but vote tags are not explicitly discussed in the setup so I wasn't sure if it would count or not and decided to err on the side of caution

yes they are?

vote tags are explicitly said to be counted as trusts

Well damn, that's what I get for skimming

Guess I'm glad I erred

hmhmhm

on one hand, kinda takes away my 'good' from earlier,

but on the other, eh, no real reason for scum to negate

[chavela]

Ok dad.

please do not with this

[chavela]

Know what is cool about this setup i just realized.
I literally don’t need to care about what the majority thinks.
WOOO

this is not good in general and leads to towns throwing and/or many frustrated players

Ok dad.

but also if you want to see what happens when you do exactly this

look at dkkoba's play in the trust fall tris moderated (i am 90% sure it was that one at least)

[chavela]

can someone actually be scummy in this setup? everyone has the same goal

yes easy for players to be scummy as town want to get all towns out and scums just want to get scums out

[chavela]

something something meuh wavelength +++

[chavela]

also hi humaneatingmonkey!!!!! been too long

[chavela]

i promise im not scum please trust me please please trust me

why,

do you want to be confirmed immediately?

[chavela]

(i am one to talk as i've already said someone can just offer me anytime, but still wondering about what advantage you see to it here if town)

[chavela]

also hi humaneatingmonkey!!!!! been too long

whose alt is this and why are you nice

shiki/inutile

and answering this question feels more or less impossible as i do not feel i am particularly nice and also struggle with 'why' in general but i am quite glad to be playing with you again at the very least

[chavela]

hey chavela remember that time you owned an entire game full of competent players in trust fall

hm,

i would not necessarily describe my play that game that way but i have won games of trust fall as mafia, yes

did you just think everyone needed to know or do you think my play here is reminiscent of my play there?

[chavela]

i would not necessarily describe my play that game that way but i have won games of trust fall as mafia, yes

by 'necessarily' i meant, i definitely would not describe my play that game in those terms,

[chavela]

i would not necessarily describe my play that game that way but i have won games of trust fall as mafia, yes

by 'necessarily' i meant, i definitely would not describe my play that game in those terms,

but that may be a perspective thing as you were one of the towns et cetera

[chavela]

i think everyone needs to know how much of a threat you are before they decide they can successfully read you and trust you

i mean,

they don't have to here because i am town, and there's no actual threat to them trusting me,

but also! i think it's noteworthy you entered with 'hey just trust me don't worry' and now think it must be known that i am a threat

as you are a very competent player as mafia yourself

[chavela]

This is now an SvS relationship or a TvT relationship. Thank you for participating.

?

[chavela]

mmm i really should not join any more games of this setup

[chavela]

Not really, i already explained it in other game.

Mafia have benefit in refusing at first, get townread and then jump with someone more worthy, while painting first truster in red.

...

why would you have trusted humaneatingmonkey here then?

[chavela]

mmm i really should not join any more games of this setup

Why so?

once again frustrated

like how i view the setup and want to play it is at great odds with the way others do

[chavela]

chavela if you trust me i will walk out in this game with you

...

or i could be scum trying to leave the game with supervaluable and scumbusting bugspray

[chavela]

chavela if you trust me i will walk out in this game with you

No you're 2 obvious.

thoughts on enchant?

[chavela]

i mean, i don't really plan on pairing right now. as trying to help facilitate two town/town pairings and then being able to pair myself when it is more difficult to find a town rather than less difficult seemed like the right approach, but humaneatingmonkey also trying to establish self as town and stay so more pressing issue is

is

humaneatingmonkey town?

[chavela]

chavela pls pls pls pls trust me

i like, don't see town benefit of us both leaving here

and! am not super confident that you are town yet

so it would just for you to be like, see! i am definitely town!

[chavela]

i'll spoil you

yes im town

hm

how does norwegianboyee seemingly worried about this approach,

make you feel

[chavela]

Not really, i already explained it in other game.

Mafia have benefit in refusing at first, get townread and then jump with someone more worthy, while painting first truster in red.

...

why would you have trusted humaneatingmonkey here then?

It's answering on "Confirmed Town", i simple love disapprove statements like that.

mmm i really should not join any more games of this setup

Why so?

once again frustrated

like how i view the setup and want to play it is at great odds with the way others do

You welcome

you do not really seem to be playing downhill in the way i have come to expect from town!enchant

like do i think town!you would offer trust there? yup

but it doesn't feel like you doing so has led to you having strong feeling about humaneatingmonkey

and did seem maybe potentially disappointed humaneatingmonkey didn't leave with you

[chavela]

make you feel

i feel nothing

huh

it's like, if you're town i would expect the scums to be worried about, but maybe based on too many assumptions

[chavela]

This is what i feel is happening right now:

- Scum PT -
HEM: Shit Enchant, we screwed up with our strategy of you faking trust and me voicing paranoia about it, let's just both spam as much as possible.
Enchant: You got it bub, i'm a master of spamming posts and making a lot of noise in the game.

kinda hard for me to imagine scum!humaneatingmonkey suggesting this line of play as humaneatingmonkey generally does not need to rely on 'tricks' as scum in the way i might

but it's not too hard for me to see it as having happened as an impulsive thing

as neither of their thought processes at the time of really make sense to me

[chavela]

it's like, if you're town i would expect the scums to be worried about, but maybe based on too many assumptions

how do you want to solve this game, you mentioned

certainly not by random trust hope for the best

like my frustration is certainly tempered by not knowing if enchant is mafia,

but yeah

[chavela]

certainly not by random trust hope for the best

what do you think am i doing now

i was more referring to enchant

if you are town you are probably trying to establish that you are town and create framework, which sure, but it's not like you wouldn't know that as mafia

which i think can be done just as well by using all of time and creating pairs; like if you grind through two days and encourage town/town pairs et cetera

but i wasn't so much frustrated by your play as much as maybe not trusting it

[chavela]

you guys will help me. once the second person puts their trust on me, it will be clear that my mission is just and profound.

like i already talked about why the like find one 'obvtown' town thing is kinda eh

[chavela]

#TrustTheMonkey

is this meant to get someone other than me to trust you?

or does your past experience with me suggest that this is likely to lead to me offering a trust

[chavela]

who are the most likely towns right now outside of yourself and me

[chavela]

who are the most likely towns right now outside of yourself and me

@humaneatingmonkey

[chavela]

I like Pavowski and as soon as I figure out you're not scum, I'm gonna ask either of you to pair up. I'm not sure how I feel about the boy from Norway, still not sold on their towniness.

#TrustTheMonkey

but why does town!you want me to leave the game?

[chavela]

I like Pavowski and as soon as I figure out you're not scum, I'm gonna ask either of you to pair up. I'm not sure how I feel about the boy from Norway, still not sold on their towniness.

#TrustTheMonkey

but why does town!you want me to leave the game?

which, i mean, if you think i'm more likely to be wrong later rather than right fair enough i guess

[chavela]

In simple words: chavela thinks we can't cope without his wisdom, so it's not worth leaving and winning.

no? more that there are benefits to pairing later rather than sooner if you strongly believe someone to be town,

the leaving and winning is literally only true for scums - towns have to get at least six towns out

whereas as scum i would just leave

like if humaneatingmonkey is town, do you think i as scum would have the same approach here?

[chavela]

So basically.

Everyone seems to hate me this game for me trusting probably right person and scumread me for trying to win.

So i think, i wash my hands and just watch this day. It's not like you can kill me anyway.


AHHAHAHAHAHAHA.

sigh i am not trying to discourage

i would like to know why you thought humaneatingmonkey was probably right person though

as it is only trying to win if you are mafia, or if you strongly believed humaneatingmonkey to be town

[chavela]

In simple words: chavela thinks we can't cope without his wisdom, so it's not worth leaving and winning.

no? more that there are benefits to pairing later rather than sooner if you strongly believe someone to be town,

the leaving and winning is literally only true for scums - towns have to get at least six towns out

whereas as scum i would just leave

like if humaneatingmonkey is town, do you think i as scum would have the same approach here?

One question tho, i'm pretty certain that the later a scum player get's paired the more informative it will be, so if we pair a scum early then we get much less info from the flip and a higher chance at losing later as an result.
So that means it is important for town to get town paired early on, and if a scum get's paired later that is more manageable as the second scum can be caught out or PoE'd from association tells.

'information' in this sense is not particularly valuable to me, at least not compared to other considerations

like it's easier to find a town at 10 players than at 6 players, especially when factoring in that the townier players will likely be among the four that left, so if possible to still have widely regarded likely towns leave while still having someone you very strongly believe to be town in the game, it makes the later pairings easier when the game is generally expected to be harder

like sure there can be fear of pocketing and such, but still

[chavela]

I don’t really get the impression either of them is actually trying to win right now or views what they’re doing as actively beneficial
Imo either there’s no convoluted plan or they’re both scum and decided to instantly go with the questionable “one scum proposes trust to the other” gambit

hm,

i think if they're both scum it was likely the result of enchant offering a trust impulsively rather than a long thought out gambit,

[chavela]

I don’t really get the impression either of them is actually trying to win right now or views what they’re doing as actively beneficial
Imo either there’s no convoluted plan or they’re both scum and decided to instantly go with the questionable “one scum proposes trust to the other” gambit

hm,

i think if they're both scum it was likely the result of enchant offering a trust impulsively rather than a long thought out gambit,

but! could also be very wrong about this, just seems that way to me,

if humaneatingmonkey is mafia without enchant approach is just to get "confirmed" control game get partner out get self out

if enchant is mafia without humaneatingmonkey approach was likely hoping that humaneatingmonkey was actually trying to leave at that moment,

but! that would be a weird read of the situation right? as it comes with obvious downside of potentially +towning humaneatingmonkey

[chavela]

Thing is, the more mafia are around, the more they can control the game’s narrative. If we’re on day 3 and both scum are still in, they will ultimately have more control on what town thinks than if one of them leaves early.
Also if we flush out the likely townies early, it makes it even easier for the mafia to control the town’s thoughts, since the lack of trusted townies will make the mafia more believable.

if not confident in two non-self towns though should definitely try to pair self with town you are confident in rather than roll dice on second though

as then everyone would have reset timer to become confident et cetera

so as always everything situation dependent

[chavela]

Thing is, the more mafia are around, the more they can control the game’s narrative. If we’re on day 3 and both scum are still in, they will ultimately have more control on what town thinks than if one of them leaves early.
Also if we flush out the likely townies early, it makes it even easier for the mafia to control the town’s thoughts, since the lack of trusted townies will make the mafia more believable.

if not confident in two non-self towns though should definitely try to pair self with town you are confident in rather than roll dice on second though

as then everyone would have reset timer to become confident et cetera

so as always everything situation dependent

i guess there's also time consideration of

like

waiting as town to find confident pairing possibly gets undercut by mafia pushing for pairing

so only really works if all of town is patient which so far is seemingly not the game we are playing

so approach maybe unideal across the board

[chavela]

how else does one progress in their reads in this game other than getting their strongest townreads to half-trust each other and getting confirmed towns to the endgame? meanwhile, i feel like there's a strong chance Enchant is scum here and that this game is won just by letting them stay in this game.

i, don’t get it

[chavela]

can trust triangles help here? three people all think they are town and then form a trust triangle where A trust B, B trust C, C trust A and then they are all pseudomechanically conftown. I think the trusts would also have to form in that order.

or this

[chavela]

it’s like it’s like it’s like

a) we have a lot of time and need to find two towns collectively
b) why would we risk losing the game (or at least severely disadvantaging ourselfs) with mechanical plays that are pretty easy for mafia to play around when we could just try to interact with everyone and find the aforementioned towns
c) how are either of you two even reading most of the game right now there are just so many slots i am ??? about

[chavela]

for example greeting has four posts right now none of which contain thoughts on any other players right

so trying to learn more there or any number of other places seems much preferable to me than any sort of mechanical play right now

like what is plan here

to just start pressing buttons and hope enchant + ??? slots contains all of the mafia

seems somewhat unlikely to me and i don’t really understand the town motivation for this

pedit: eh but also yeah would like to see the humaneatingmonkey finds towns part

[chavela]

as most of my complaint with your play and why it feels not very town is that you’re just saying you’re town and i’m a threat and enchant scum because of trust you asked for

and not like, sorting i guess

[chavela]

wow chavela, if this is your scum game,

it isn’t

which may be what you’re saying there while being kind

[chavela]

saying that lurking is towny makes it not towny anymore because it suddenly becomes a publicly known wifom good job dude

it’s not that lurking is towny - quite the opposite really as we would like the towns to make themselfs sortable and also for them to sort others - but rather that

not

lurking isn’t in and of itself towny as the mafia have a lot of incentive to be trying to be townread and so forth

[chavela]

but also! it isn’t as though there aren’t hundreds of examples of scums trying to win passively rather than actively

and also lots of other considerations that muddy everything

[chavela]

can someone give me the tldr? I just have to find a town to tr? then bold that I trust them?

i mean, i would rather you find as many towns and scums as you can or even just thoughts towards those goals and share those and work from there

but what you’ve laid out is the mechanics of the game yeah

[chavela]

like if everyone really thinks the approach here for town should be find one town and get out i can find one town and get out

but it just feels like we can do better even if i am beyond terrible at organizing

[chavela]

Pavowski seems trustworthy

hm, why though, (not disagreeing just wondering on thought process et cetera)

[chavela]

hmhmhm

i’m definitely thinking about that specifically too much now as i pointed it out on same page and am now tilting head pretty far to

but maybe…

[chavela]

Cause here, scum have to actively make an effort to look like town, or else the town just find each other and win, like, chav, you're even saying "you gotta do more than just find 1 town" but you have no reaction to the "3 people have nothing" ?? like if I was in the shoes of someone really trying, I would genuinely be mad that 3 people are doing nothing while I'm over there trying, I don't sense the same vibe from you, sure there's like 300 posts I haven't read, but gut says chav is scum trying to appear towny, Pav is town genuinely trying to read people.

i… pointed this out? like eight posts before pav? not sure what you’re saying here

[chavela]

also, not sure how important this is, I'm not here at deadline, sunday the 13th I literally can't possibly post that day

not so important unless you specifically want to be one of those players paired today

[chavela]

i don’t get it at all

meh just going to find a town i guess

definitely getting too frustrated

[chavela]

like ‘haven’t read your posts and am townreading someone for saying the same thing you said shortly after you said it but you’re scum’ is like !!! to me and just yeah

[chavela]

sure trust me then

[chavela]

then sort me push me out of range whatever

or don’t shrug

meuh the most likely non-me town right now

probably? if you really think mechanical actions is the way to go

but eh

[chavela]

it’s like you’re just going ‘she could be scum’ with like, no ability for me to be town in this view, like by this logic I could literally always be scum when it’s like, really hard for me to see you viewing me that way

andante is now saying ‘haven’t read her posts but she’s scum’

and it’s like

…

[chavela]

i think we're still at the point where we'll need to slow this a bit so tris, NorwegianBoy, Greeting, and Adante can catch up and react to these first 15 pages.

i said more or less this right when explaining why mechanical plan was bad

you then said, no mechanical plan only way to move forward

then i said, okay, mechanical plan go, trust me,

now you say, well we need more information from those slots before i am even willing to try to gain enough information from your slot to enact mechanical plan

and it is like

...

like it just feels like you don't want me to be confirmed

[chavela]

chav, i'm shocked you're annoyed by not having the opportunity to be viewed as town this early in the game. didn't you say you'd rather stay later than get trusted early?

...

what?

i am annoyed that i am being scumread for ???????????????????????????????????????????? reasons

like

..............................................

you are saying that, you want to enact mechanical plan, unless it involves me, and then using my argument against the mechanical plan in the first place as the reasoning for that

[chavela]

what should i read

norwegianboyee pages 2-4, enchant offering trust to humaneatingmonkey and aftermath, would be most pressing highlights i guess but everything if able

[chavela]

mechanical plan only way to move forward is true. that's what me calling to be confirmed was for. that's done now and we can read through the action. now we wait and talk about it. then after, we can do another mechanical action so we can continue this cycle again.

only, you're not actually confirmed and not really playing like town either

[chavela]

you're not playing like town

in what way am i not playing like town?

what are you reads really

??? what do you think they are? like i've given thoughts on most of the slots that have posted, and this is the same exact approach to me you took as scum previously,

[chavela]

??? what do you think they are? like i've given thoughts on most of the slots that have posted, and this is the same exact approach to me you took as scum previously,

like the only strong feeling i've had that i haven't really already posted was being kinda worried about bugspray's approach to me in comparison to last game we played together

[chavela]

for example my reads are

pavowski
norwegianboyEE,
meuh, andante, greeting, tris,
chavela, bugspray

what's yours

you know i do not work this way

like c'mon

[chavela]

like if you really want a readslist it'd be something like

meuh
norwegianboy
pav

tris, greeting

humaneatingmonkey

andante, bugspray

enchant

[chavela]

i know but give me your version i guess. it's very hard to parse what you really think, because just moments ago, i thought you were townreading me.

okay so why not ask me more about that, or explain why you thought that and ask if that's an accurate representation of my thought process i do not understand how a readslist can solve this issue

[chavela]

okay let's talk about why they're tiered that way

like are you just asking me to restate all of my thoughts on every slot that i have throughout the game or are you asking how i am weighing things like

norwegianboyee's 'gimme space' vs meuh's general towniness

[chavela]

chavela, please, don't let me get in the way of you laying out your thought process thus far because that's really what i really want to see. right now, it's a bit nebulous.

.........

nah just going to assume you're not town because like,

this just does not feel remotely towny

[chavela]

chavela, please, don't let me get in the way of you laying out your thought process thus far because that's really what i really want to see. right now, it's a bit nebulous.

.........

nah just going to assume you're not town because like,

this just does not feel remotely towny

like you're literally saying, 'hey gimme more thoughts on everything you've thought this game' even though you haven't pointed out anything at all you've found to not be towny

[chavela]

like you're literally saying, 'hey gimme more thoughts on everything you've thought this game' even though you haven't pointed out anything at all you've found to not be towny

and what purpose could this possibly have other than to then say something that i then posted was not towny

[chavela]

you know i do not work this way

like c'mon

i know but give me your version i guess.

it's just like, not how i approach the game, as you know

like even looking at my list there it can fluctuate greatly just thinking about any name on the list

are you and/or andante spewing pav town? or! are one of you trying to get me to pair with partner pav as i've discussed my townread of pav earlier? like does being third on the list mean i would pair with third? not really sure, this consideration would weigh too heavily on my right now to offer a trust to pav even though i think more likely town, like there are just like

so many of these

and when there is a list it is like a static thing and pretty much never representative of how i am viewing the game at any time

[chavela]

for example my reads are

pavowski
norwegianboyEE,
meuh, andante, greeting, tris,
chavela, bugspray

what's yours

also it's like,

you currently think i am one of the very most likely mafias? even though you think i would be playing impressively if mafia, and! my play does not resemble any of my past play as mafia to you? and! there isn't something i've done you felt was +mafia just that you think everything i've done is 'within my range' which in this case based on your stated view of me when you entered i am assuming is near infinite, so mostly it is just, scum because could be scum because can always be scum, which, like, ...

(i am assuming enchant would be at the bottom even though you failed to list enchant? which is probably +partner in a vacuum)

[chavela]

okay so what mechanical action do you think should happen next? is it really me trusting you?

i mean, if solely up to me, i would suggest anyone trusting me, and then me trusting someone from there, probably with the intention of that trust being reciprocated after we've discussed for the rest of the day,

as i am feeling frustrated and less and less useful to the game as a whole

[chavela]

i can't explain it yet but the mood shift you had from pages ago when you declared you would want to stay in the game to solve it and that you don't think mechanical play is the way, then the incongruence when you became upset that i wouldn't trust you and advance the game mechanically... is noteworthy.

...

it is explained by what has happened in the game,

like do you not think i would be frustrated with enchant yolotrusting? do you not think i would be frustrated by andante saying 'haven't read any of your posts but you're scum'?

and i already explained your loop with the mechanical advancement and just using my argument against me

like to me the solutions to my frustration are

a) i find a town and leave the game

or

b) i am offered a trust and others treat me as town so i can just play as town and am no longer subject to some/most of the things currently frustrating me

[chavela]

and i just don't see how you view all of that as,

'oh that makes chavela likely scum!'

[chavela]

i am offered a trust and others treat me as town so i can just play as town and am no longer subject to some/most of the things currently frustrating me

so is being scumread frustrating you? how so?

...

because one of you hasn't read any of my posts

and the other has not given any reason for this read beyond 'is within your scumrange' and now, 'is frustrated' while also seemingly has been trying to say 'don't trust her' the entire game

[chavela]

like how would that not be frustrating for you? and why would town!you never have any intention of working with me in the entire game?

[chavela]

like how would that not be frustrating for you?

* for me

[chavela]

and why would town!you never have any intention of working with me in the entire game?

like it is really hard for me to see how town!you would think i am such a threat as scum that you would give no consideration to me being town

when you've previously stated you think i can be a useful town player

like it doesn't make a lot of sense to me

[chavela]

how does being scumread stop your goal of staying in the game for longer and solving the game?

because i become less useful when i am frustrated?

and! it becomes less enjoyable for me

when i am frustrated?

like i said when i said maybe i just find a town

[chavela]

well it's not scummy because i am town

and i think it's very scummy the way you've pushed me here as it's entire purpose felt like you inventing a reason to scumread me

[chavela]

your intention right now is to be trusted and mechanically confirmed so that you can continue to solve this game unscathed by blasphemous accusations that you're scum? and this is the only way to do it otherwise you'll be frustrated?

nah probably just going to try to find a town and if that town then doesn't think i am town so be it

shrug

like this doesn't even feel like a fair representation of anything i've said to me

[chavela]

alternatively, you want to pair up as soon as possible because you feel like you're not useful to this game anymore — right?

it's like,

if i find a town and just pair,

it's only bad if

a) i would otherwise be able to help with pairing towns by remaining in the game

or

b) the town i find is in fact not a town

[chavela]

right, so mostly i just have to make sure they're actually town

[chavela]

tell me if that misrepresents anything.

like i am not simply 'frustrated by being scumread'

you know that obviously

[chavela]

alternatively, you want to pair up as soon as possible because you feel like you're not useful to this game anymore — right?

a) i would otherwise be able to help with pairing towns by remaining in the game

Of course, good idea.

Why not all townies do that?
Oh, right.

i will try to explain

i know i am town right

so if there are players i am 90 75 65 55 45 % confident in being town

and i pair right now with the 90

then i am removing the 100 and the 90 from the game

with the hope that the other towns will find eachother

but if the 90 and the 75 pair

then we have another 4 days and additional information for making more pairings, increases percentages, and the 100% to me is still in the game

so if i am at a point where i feel useful to game, then staying is good,

[chavela]

no i dont. i'm telling it this way because that's how it comes across to me and maybe you can let me know why it isn't a fair representation.

because you didn't even explain why you were scumreading me until long after i became frustrated and your interaction with me felt like the sole purpose was to scumread me not to sort me

and andante is scumreading me without reading my posts

like how is 'oh you're simply frustrated because you're being scumread' even possibly a fair representation of that

[chavela]

alternatively, you want to pair up as soon as possible because you feel like you're not useful to this game anymore — right?

a) i would otherwise be able to help with pairing towns by remaining in the game

Of course, good idea.

Why not all townies do that?
Oh, right.

i will try to explain

i know i am town right

so if there are players i am 90 75 65 55 45 % confident in being town

and i pair right now with the 90

then i am removing the 100 and the 90 from the game

with the hope that the other towns will find eachother

but if the 90 and the 75 pair

then we have another 4 days and additional information for making more pairings, increases percentages, and the 100% to me is still in the game

so if i am at a point where i feel useful to game, then staying is good,

right because to maximize chance from my perspective would be to find two town/town pairings and then pair with who i felt was most likely town

not everyone can do that obviously but if i were feeling useful (which fair i am often not) then that would be optimal approach

[chavela]

alright i hope this helps

thankyou

[chavela]

like if you really want a readslist it'd be something like

meuh
norwegianboy
pav

tris, greeting

humaneatingmonkey

andante, bugspray

enchant

Wait you townread me?
I did not get that impression at all.

well, no, not really; but i did think one of your reactions at one point was kinda towny as mentioned shortly after the readslist post and there is simply no other way to represent that on a list like that

like if i really wanted to make an ever so slightly more useful list i’d try to weigh all 36 of the possible scumteams against eachother here but even then the fluidity makes it a pretty useless exercise;

[chavela]

i mean, trusts are forever, but i obviously wouldn’t risk someone else leaving today if i was a mafia, so

[chavela]

I have read the thread, had not time to respond, but there is something that stuck in mind. I think it was from

chavela

and regarded game strategy.

I will requote what I had said before:

Second is the fact that there isn't a lot of teamwork to be done if you're town. A town win is a sum of individual correct decisions made by six to seven town-aligned players.

I would say that finding two townies collectively is not helpful at all and is more likely to benefit scum. I feel like a scum could benefit directly from being a mastermind behind a successful townie matchup and then use this to escape themselves by having built trust from others. This could actually be a great strategy - to be a scum mastermind, matching two pairs, then having your partner matched with a townie and then pressuring town into matching with yourself using past credibility. Town could fall for this.

Plus, even if the mastermind is town, it all relies on individual trust and it would be very bizarre if everyone just trusted one player and followed them.

Which is why I feel that from the town perspective this is a game played by 8 individuals who just have a common goal, rather than a team who needs teamwork.

i mean, i obviously completely disagree on a basic level but we've disagreed on approach to games before and such

like it is much harder for mafia to 'mastermind' as you are referring to it here then it is for mafia to simply be townread by one singular town, yes?

[chavela]

Okay yeah ... Chav and Monkey are both +town for this, they can't both be deepwolfing

hmhmhm

for humaneatingmonkey it is like

like

humaneatingmonkey shifted on me after bugspray already trusted me and norwegianboyee weighed in to say i was obviously town and so forth,

but does scum!humaneatingmonkey who is not partnered with enchant simply press the eject button there instead? maybe possibly, probably more likely than previously but maybe not more likely than not,

so maybe +town overall but does not lessen the equity between enchant and humaneatingmonkey

[chavela]

I would say that finding two townies collectively is not helpful at all and is more likely to benefit scum. I feel like a scum could benefit directly from being a mastermind behind a successful townie matchup and then use this to escape themselves by having built trust from others. This could actually be a great strategy - to be a scum mastermind, matching two pairs, then having your partner matched with a townie and then pressuring town into matching with yourself using past credibility. Town could fall for this.

like it is much much harder for a mafia to fool a collective town than to fool a single player

so i don't really get how that would benefit scum more than town

[chavela]

also i don't see how humaneatingmonkey saying let's slow the game down and then continue to push everyone to trust someone isn't !!! to everyone

[chavela]

Have we played before? I don't remember you.

we played together in achromatic calamity - me as anahit

[chavela]

i mean, i obviously completely disagree on a basic level but we've disagreed on approach to games before and such

like it is much harder for mafia to 'mastermind' as you are referring to it here then it is for mafia to simply be townread by one singular town, yes?

Have we played before? I don't remember you.

Actually trying to mastermind or at least help out a townie in masterminding would be my first instinct for gameplay here as scum. I think it's significantly easier to manipulate a collective than 8 individuals. Especially since you need to keep your options open in case someone doesn't reciprocate. Then you can pressure townies into matching with people they normally wouldn't consider and say they're anti-town for refusing to participate.

Then again, it's my first time playing this setup so I have literally zero experience. My instincts tell me that approaching everyone individually and asking them about their potentially questionable choices would be the best way to avoid any potential mismatches.

i think, both from my experiences as mafia in this setup and reading other games, that mafia are generally just angling to get out or get their partner out, often by focusing on specific interactions to do so,

like that's what i did in the game humaneatingmonkey referred to earlier and i think generally it is much easier than trying to 'mastermind' as you'd need to both be townread and listened to for that

and also like, do you see someone trying to do that here?

[chavela]

nothing about my bugspray gotcha, chavela?

i didn't really read it closely yet sorry started replying to the most recent things when i got here and then only got to pav's post when looking at what i missed as otherwise interacting with greeting

[chavela]

The loss of this game for town can be basically blamed on two players. In case the leader is wrong, the loss can be blamed on them instead.

a loss is on every member of town no need for blame

[chavela]

Thanks for claiming your main, I appreciate it.

shiki/inutile/team rocket queen/angela

are what i would call my 'mains'

(like angela is technically my main account, team rocket queen was my first account, shiki is probably the account i am most known for and inutile is by far the account most representative of

me

)

but also, like you said, meta doesn't mean so much here; i have not looked at anyone's past games during this game and such

[chavela]

nothing about my bugspray gotcha, chavela?

i, uh, really don't understand why you think bugspray should pair with enchant? when you strongly scumread both? like if you're wrong on bugspray but right on enchant then the player you are claiming is your strongest scumread escapes? which, uh, doesn't make a lot of sense

like sure it has great upside but what's % on that upside vs % of enchant being scum without bugspray

(but also, like, bugspray's response doesn't make much sense to me

likelikelike

perspective wise

but maybe bugspray was trying to say it shouldn't make sense for you to suggest that from your perspective

rather than from bugspray's perspective;

hard for me to tell)

[chavela]

like sure it has great upside but what's % on that upside vs % of enchant being scum without bugspray

and the upside is actually 0% in practice

it only exists on paper

as they won't actually try to pair if mafia together

so it is only downside from your perspective? but you are suggesting it anyway?

[chavela]

I guess Chav could always be deepwolfing to advance mafia’s goals but I doubt it. If that’d be the case I’d assume her partner is more of a lurker

i start to get slightly paranoid of meuh at times but then posts like this are like,

really good right

because it seems to be trying to fill in all of the possible narratives

while also weighing the likelihood of those narratives at the same time

[chavela]

The loss of this game for town can be basically blamed on two players. In case the leader is wrong, the loss can be blamed on them instead.

a loss is on every member of town no need for blame

like there isn't ever going to be a game where there aren't many many things i could have done better

and i kinda assume this is true of everyone

like i shouldn't show frustrating with the way others play i know this i knew when signing up for trust fall that i become frustrated with yolo tactics and i am familiar with enchant's play (part of why i am maybe not scumreading it as much as i otherwise would be - though it is very very difficult for me to tell if enchant's posts are showing frustration with being scumread even though from enchant's perspective if enchant is town and if they think it is town indicative that humaneatingmonkey did not immediately accept that enchant was right and is being scumread for it or if enchant is frustrated that this action had the reaction to it that it did)

and i really do not know how to engage enchant about like,

enchant's reads and the reasoning for actions and so forth

in a way that further enlightens this to me as each post i just go, yeah, could be either of those

and i don't know i don't know

[chavela]

Um, i don't see why that is so very good.

do you often see mafia doing that? if so could you show me examples please

[chavela]

the player you are claiming is your strongest scumread escapes

at best, we corner scum. at worst, two players i strongly suspect the most exits the game.

....................

and if you are right about one of the two players you strongly suspect?

like

................

[chavela]

Let's perform cringe and pair two scum, so they fuck up publically.

yes, but unironically

how do you see this working tho

[chavela]

Um, i don't see why that is so very good.

do you often see mafia doing that? if so could you show me examples please

Yes, i have met players like Marcistar that break my heart and turn out to be scum even though they enticed me with their sweet and pure posts.

i do not think i have seen marcistar lay out possible narratives in this way and then weigh them

but also i think i've only seen two marcistar mafia games

[chavela]

Um, i don't see why that is so very good.

do you often see mafia doing that? if so could you show me examples please

Yes, i have met players like Marcistar that break my heart and turn out to be scum even though they enticed me with their sweet and pure posts.

i do not think i have seen marcistar lay out possible narratives in this way and then weigh them

but also i think i've only seen two marcistar mafia games

well could be deepwolfing > if so likely partnered with lurker (which is solid logic as it'd be assumed i would escape unless i felt partner would not get out if i left) > but overall unlikely

is just not something i see mafia doing a lot

i can't really say never but to me it's a pretty towny thought process that just feels a to b to c right

[chavela]

how do you see this working tho

bugspray trusts Enchant

i would like to very very very much vote against this

[chavela]

how do you see this working tho

bugspray trusts Enchant

i would like to very very very much vote against this

like if you think enchant is most likely mafia

this is just completely absurd

[chavela]

and if you are right about one of the two players you strongly suspect?

i'm thinking we go deeper into the game eliminating the most obvious suspects

which literally leads to

one of the mafia likely escaping?

and! the remaining players being harder to sort not easier??????

like it's just an absurd suggestion across the board

[chavela]

do you townread bugs, chav?

nope not really as previously discussed

[chavela]

It's so easy to say that 'widely townread player' is 'town because of x'
v_v

I think we are going to inherently disagree with each other on this tho, so not point in us trying to convince each other.

no i agree with you on the first part

as i often find players doing just that with me

i just don't really agree that that is what meuh was doing there i guess

unless meuh is very good at having a running narrative as mafia

which some players are but not really a lot

[chavela]

bugspray x enchant
let's make it happen
#EnSpray

definitely not making my worry about your possible partners less

[chavela]

bugspray x enchant
let's make it happen
#EnSpray

definitely not making my worry about your possible partners less

as it's most likely one of those two

as mentioned before as otherwise you have incentive to leave instead of me being confirmed and such

but could also be town trying to be right, shrug

[chavela]

bugspray x enchant
let's make it happen
#EnSpray

Also how, Bugspray and Enchant has both already placed their trust vote.

oh good call lol

[chavela]

okayokayokay

[chavela]

Pavowski can I just trust you and you trust me? lol cause I think you're town, Norwee seems a little off to me, but other than that I don't really have reads, nor have I read much lol

this feels mostly like openwolfing

[chavela]

how does that read as openwolfing?

because you are literally saying

i have not read the game and this is my only read

but you should trust me!

[chavela]

like it's self explanatory and i already explained how your push on me earlier was

?????????????????

at best

[chavela]

how does that read as openwolfing?

because you are literally saying

i have not read the game and this is my only read

but you should trust me!

which is just what mafia do yeah

like 'i do not need to solve the game but i do need to get out of the game'

is the mafia thing here

so having one read and trying to pair with that read is pretty !!! yeah?

[chavela]

like, do we need a bunch of town pairs in the next 2 days?

this is not how the game works

[chavela]

like, do we need a bunch of town pairs in the next 2 days?

this is not how the game works

timer and all of the pairs reset when there's an accepted pair

[chavela]

When the trust is reciprocal, a valid pairing is formed and ends the day. This resets all trust votes, and any pairings formed in between the formation and public resolution will be be invalid.

[chavela]

Could Norwee / Chav give some reasons for townreading Meuh?

it's like it's like it's like

when i try to reverse engineer meuh's posts it feels like town to me, and the things that worry me are just like,

well maybe meuh could be trying to do this...

sort of paranoid things not like, oh this feels like mafia to me

will try to explain this better with examples and such in ~5ish hours when i'm freeeee

[chavela]

FTR I see Greeting posting but mostly talking theory and barely trying to sort at all so far

while this certainly isn't town indicative i also don't really think it is scum indicative in and of itself

partly because i am often accused of being scum for talking about mechanics/theory instead of solving when i am town as i tend to just talk about whatever is interesting to me about the game

and partly because in our last game together greeting more or less refused to sort day one even under pressure saying that he didn't think town could actually find scum and that it is pointless without information

[chavela]

FTR I see Greeting posting but mostly talking theory and barely trying to sort at all so far

and partly because in our last game together greeting more or less refused to sort day one even under pressure saying that he didn't think town could actually find scum and that it is pointless without information

but also this is a very very easy stance to take as scum

not saying it is town indicative just that it is consistent with past experience yeah

[chavela]

So imo HumanEatingMonkey, you should accept Enchant proposal.
If you don’t want to because you don’t trust em, then let’s talk about that.

So any thoughts on this?

I don't love speaking for other people but Monkey has already expressed the feeling that nobody should fall with Enchant except for Bugs (which I will editorialize to say I think he's only saying because he thinks it can't happen)

okay few thoughts on this quick then i will return when able

a) i think it's okay to speak for other people in this way as it is helpful to see whether or not your interpretations of others posts feel like they have a goal or not and such and for people like me who are often not clear in communication it is helpful for me to see if thoughts are coming across and such

b) if partnered with enchant though monkey has to take this sort of stance for 3 major reasons;

• 1. humaneatingmonkey needs a built in explanation as to why not accepting an offer that cannot be accepted due to it being game losing
  2. if humaneatingmonkey is trusted by someone else and leaves the game as mafia it seems like humaneatingmonkey was trying to make sure enchant would never be able to leave the game,
  3. if enchant is trusted by someone else and leaves the game as mafia it seems like humaneatingmonkey was correct about this and such

[chavela]

sorry andante and everyone else

regardless of andante’s alignment i have to be better about interacting with people in a way that encourages instead of discourages -

like being discouraged really sucks

and if misreading the way to find out is by having more conversation and so forth

like here it’s like

i was worried that andante was trying to quickly pair with someone and leave the game as mafia

but instead of explaining and simply expressing my opposition to the potential trust offers and encouraging andante to explain thought process and give reasoning and asking questions that might interest andante

i was just like ‘mafia!!’

which is terrible to andante and the game and that’s on me

[chavela]

i’m ydrasse

hi

all our failures are stars

[chavela]

I don't agree with

Meuh

's 288. I feel the exact opposite - we should avoid scums getting out from the game at all as the fact that two players are desperate to win someone's trust and get out from the game will be more visible.

I don't think I can fully trust

Meuh

yet.

wait actually hmm

[chavela]

I don't agree with

Meuh

's 288. I feel the exact opposite - we should avoid scums getting out from the game at all as the fact that two players are desperate to win someone's trust and get out from the game will be more visible.

I don't think I can fully trust

Meuh

yet.

wait actually hmm

nah pretty sure this makes sense and is consistent with meuh's earlier thoughts like this one:

Also, we should also particularly watch out for pocketing/duos, right? Cause scum could be scumread by everyone but strongly trusted by one person, and poof that player is a one-way ticket to victory.

like in 288 she was responding directly to norwegianboyee saying it would be better if mafia leave the game later rather than sooner, and disagreeing with that,

she wasn't saying it would be better if the mafia leave the game sooner rather than not at all, which i think everyone would agree is less optimal

and really if trying to optimize the answer is really kinda neither or both

like you do want to keep towns you are sure about in the game as it is harder to make correct pairs as the game goes on so in the first pairing it is okay to want a slightly less than certain to be trust offered and such, but have to take into account level of accepted risk - like just because you would take on a small amount of risk, maybe it is warm outside and you have fizzy drink or hairspray in your bag, does not mean you should take on an extreme amount of risk, say applying the hairspray near an open flame

[chavela]

though meuh's post does make a weird assumption of

the mafia leaving the game in general

and kinda has that time traveler element to it

of almost looking back at actions

as step by step later is better than sooner

because! later could become never but sooner cannot if it has already happened

[chavela]

meuh is saying a lot but not saying a lot that matters for all the words as in there’s nothing there that feels concrete at all and some retrospective rather than being forward thinking

I don't agree with

Meuh

's 288. I feel the exact opposite - we should avoid scums getting out from the game at all as the fact that two players are desperate to win someone's trust and get out from the game will be more visible.

I don't think I can fully trust

Meuh

yet.

though meuh's post does make a weird assumption of

the mafia leaving the game in general

and kinda has that time traveler element to it

hmhmhm

[chavela]

PEdit: posted the same thing as as chavela again oops

though i guess i should also note that some of these felt a bit like they were being leaned into

[chavela]

I

do you

think they are trying to lead me to scumreading you?

or at least,

to not townreading you enough

for me to trust you or suggest you be trusted?

[chavela]

If i’m wrong there then Meuh is free to make their case of why. But i was always going to voice this paranoia nonetheless.

was not referring to you specifically

(or even generally really though i didn’t want to artificially narrow it in case meuh felt that you were)

just that it felt like most of the push towards meuh has come after i said i was townreading her even though most of her posts came before

though ydrasse gets a pass for this she already had +partner equity with pav from earlier to me and pav is also sharing concerns about meuh

and greeting as well

so mostly i was wondering how meuh was viewing all of this

but trying to ask in a way that didn’t fill in potential answers

[chavela]

your solve is terrible

hm

what information were you working off of

before you read the game?

[chavela]

should be ~36ish hours on deadline once day resumes if i am calculating correctly so while that’s plenty of time will try to focus on pairing for today

[chavela]

hm

who do

ydrasse and kuriyama

think are the very most likely non-me non-them towns right now

and why i guess

[chavela]

hm

who do

ydrasse and kuriyama

think are the very most likely non-me non-them towns right now

and why i guess

anyone else can answer this question as well mostly posed to those two as they seem to have both entered with

like

these are the mafias you are looking for

[chavela]

hm

who do

ydrasse and kuriyama

think are the very most likely non-me non-them towns right now

and why i guess

mmm

enchant
hem
bugs?
norw?
ydrasse?

i mean,

if you really feel this way then advocating for humaneatingmonkey to accept enchant’s trust offer and for no other trusts to be offered today makes the most sense yeah? though i do not really understand why you think enchant is particularly towny? like sure one can easily say enchant would make that trust offer as town potentially but enchant would definitely make that trust offer as mafia and since doing so enchant has simply expressed displeasure with proceedings

like i am not hard scumreading enchant

but i would definitely advocate against anyone else offering a trust to enchant - like if anyone really strongly believes that enchant is town then they should probably want humaneatingmonkey to accept enchant’s offer

though i still have various worries about monkey i think monkey accepting enchant’s proposal is preferable to anyone else proposing to enchant

[chavela]

and if there’s reason for townreading humaneatingmonkey beyond ‘hasn’t accepted trust offer’ i guess i am interested in that as well

[chavela]

like it’s probably slightly +scum for enchant in and of itself that none of the players saying ‘enchant is town!!’ have acted on ‘maybe i will propose’

because town!enchant would probably be perceived by mafia as more likely to accept mafia proposal

which is part of why everyone saying ‘enchant town’ should probably be looked further into also

getting messy thinking about this

[chavela]

the way it feels like everyone is more or less synching up with like

who is scummy

feels good

hm

[chavela]

chavela (leanin on mech a bit)
enchant
bugspray
humaneatingmonkey
^ i hope all town

greeting
kuriyama
ydrasse
pavowski
meuh

thereabouts

pedit: ... lol

why town!bugspray?

and!

would you want to be paired today?

if not i assume you would simply want an existing trust offer to be accepted and no others to be made yeah?

[chavela]

meuh the most likely non-me town right now

ooh i'm keen for your read here


viewtopic.php?f=51&t=89054&start=375
i know this is a bit tepid but the innate disconnect between hem/chavela here comes from t/t long before anything else, i don't think scum!hem is incentivised to play this rough and it kinda just pings sincere + a weird way to approach chavela anti-charismatically

kind of glazing over a lot of stuff

humaneatingmonkey and i had a very similar interaction previously when humaneatingmonkey was mafia will find it

[chavela]

meuh the most likely non-me town right now

ooh i'm keen for your read here


viewtopic.php?f=51&t=89054&start=375
i know this is a bit tepid but the innate disconnect between hem/chavela here comes from t/t long before anything else, i don't think scum!hem is incentivised to play this rough and it kinda just pings sincere + a weird way to approach chavela anti-charismatically

kind of glazing over a lot of stuff

humaneatingmonkey and i had a very similar interaction previously when humaneatingmonkey was mafia will find it

here it is:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=86693&start=675

has almost the same path of

thought you were town but then you did this > engages interaction to then say and now this also!

and in my previous interactions with town!humaneatingmonkey it has generally felt more head on

and much less like trying to drag me into quicksand

[chavela]

meuh the most likely non-me town right now

ooh i'm keen for your read here


viewtopic.php?f=51&t=89054&start=375
i know this is a bit tepid but the innate disconnect between hem/chavela here comes from t/t long before anything else, i don't think scum!hem is incentivised to play this rough and it kinda just pings sincere + a weird way to approach chavela anti-charismatically

kind of glazing over a lot of stuff

humaneatingmonkey and i had a very similar interaction previously when humaneatingmonkey was mafia will find it

here it is:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=86693&start=675

has almost the same path of

thought you were town but then you did this > engages interaction to then say and now this also!

and in my previous interactions with town!humaneatingmonkey it has generally felt more head on

and much less like trying to drag me into quicksand

can skip the posts that aren’t me(shiki)/humaneatingmonkey as the interaction goes on for a few pages just wanted to show more from the beginning

also probably noteworthy that in that game humaneatingmonkey took an initial approach of like ‘shiki is a useful town’ towards me almost like opposed to the ‘chavela is a strong mafia watch out’ of this one but a comparable stance in the way both felt pre-weighted

[chavela]

and much less like trying to drag me into quicksand

i do not understand why you feel this way. i've been very kind to you.

sorry was not trying to say you have been unkind

simply that it has felt like you entered the game saying everyone should be wary of me and then pushed me in a way that felt like it gave no consideration to me possibly being town -

like the intention was to say i was mafia not to sort me

[chavela]

Enchant I'm ready to trust you.

i guess i do not really understand why you aren’t more wary of the people now townreading both you and enchant if you were scumreading enchant before - because that would be the path for mafia partnered with enchant to get enchant out of the game but it is more than one person and you know you own alignment so hard for me to weigh

[chavela]

phone posting takes impossibly long for me so bear with me a bit

[chavela]

are we playing with isis?

if referring to kuriyama potentially being isis i think it is pretty unlikely isis would reply to a readslist she knew was more or less meaningless to me with ‘im dead’

not that i really understand why kuriyama responded that way other than to say, ‘other solves bad my solve is correct!’ which is consistent with earlier response to humaneatingmonkey but not really consistent with more recent ‘game is all about player agency everyone should do what they want’

maybe noteworthy that the replacements made similar pushes here or rather, pushes that lead to similar game actions if acted on for a number of reasons

like could potential be because of shared agenda
or simply because entering as replacements gave them better view of game

[chavela]

also i'm town. you're wrong about me. sorry about that.

i am not functioning as though you are definitely mafia, simply sharing the reasons why i have felt some of your actions feel more likely to come from mafia;

like entering and immediately trying to be trusted and refusing to give me the same benefit or even really trying to read me at that time while still expecting it to be given to you, et cetera

like if you’re town i assume you can understand why it felt that way and if you’re mafia, well yeah

[chavela]

i guess i do not really understand why you aren’t more wary of the people now townreading both you and enchant if you were scumreading enchant before - because that would be the path for mafia partnered with enchant to get enchant out of the game but it is more than one person and you know you own alignment so hard for me to weigh

i guess i do not really understand why you aren’t more wary of the people now townreading both you and enchant if you were scumreading enchant before - because that would be the path for mafia partnered with enchant to get enchant out of the game but it is more than one person and you know you own alignment so hard for me to weigh

shiki you all can't be mafia.

if enchant was scum, her partner's intention is either bus or raise her status to trustable.

i thought bugspray was scum, and it fits the narrative that they were bussing their partner (that was their position at early game).

but to me, it seemed like all of you independently agree that her instatrust does not mean she's scum, and ydrasse's appeal was very reasonable. (in that, it doesn't make sense for scum!enchant to instatrust someone without establishing rapport.) i am also warming up to the idea that enchant is town.

i wonder if bugspray would stop me though.

i know they can’t all be mafia but i also know that that general push has felt like it has come from kuriyama and ydrasse building on norwegianboyee’s posts in a way that is very hard to get a gauge on because those were their first posts

how would bugspray stop you from accepting enchant’s trust?

[chavela]

sigh lost post somehow

kuriyama and ydrasse building on norwegianboyee’s posts in a way that is very hard to get a gauge on because those were their first posts

if they were cooperating, then i just read that as a mindmeld. there's only one scum other than enchant, if enchant is the scum.

could be, yes

could also be first entrance inspired second
or was piggybacking on potential goal spotted within

or potentially mafia with eachother not enchant as while the actions to be taken from the reads if put into action would be the same their reads themselfs were not

[chavela]

which like yeah i get i have to be better at weighing which is occurring not just thinking about what may be occurring but none seem like they can easily be ruled out at least

[chavela]

do you scumread enchant?

if i assume you are town, and ignore other associatives,

then it is like, town!enchant would have decided trust whoever seems towny > once done just complain about being scumread for this approach (which i already explained that this frustration is understandable if enchant thinks they were correct in their trust)

and the only outlier to that really was to say greeting was mafia, which well, that greeting post seemed kinda hmmm to me too, but maybe not so immediately so

which sure, as i've said i could potentially see it

like if your only worry here is in being wrong on enchant if you accept that’s on all of us if we do not move towards another pairing first

like it’d be every bit if not more on me because the logical course of action after you trust offered me would be for me to immediately focus in on who should be trust offered next but mostly i feel like i’ve been scratching my head

[chavela]

like enchant made multiple posts criticizing my approach and me and others for finding enchant’s approach suspicious,

but none of those ever felt like they were working towards a read or anything of me before bugspray trust offered me and such,

or even like enchant was considering me having an alignment at all

which is pretty ..! on the surface at least

[chavela]

and it’s not like enchant always plays that way - my experience of town!enchant was much more downhill then that, but idk if the difference can be explained by the setup, potentially can

[chavela]

like it’d be every bit if not more on me because the logical course of action after you trust offered me would be for me to immediately focus in on who should be trust offered next but mostly i feel like i’ve been scratching my head

which i guess it’s probably noteworthy that while you were aware of this as you said more or less this when talking about mechanical plays, you still suggested other pairs shortly thereafter

though maybe could be due to my previous objections to quick mechanical chains

feel so tangled

[chavela]

right so it’s like, from there i should trust someone in the way you did, or, one of the existing trusts should happen,

which, well, yeah that’s still where we’re at

hmhmhm

who was scumreading the worst

[chavela]

if you mean the reaction to you pushing me about the readslist when you know that’s not how i work as the scumslip from bugspray,

i do not think that is alignment indicative

i think that’s more likely to come from bugspray understanding why i struggle so much with that sort of thing and my frustration regardless of alignment

[chavela]

kuriyama

oh right but then changed course after replace hm

[chavela]

i

do you think enchant is more likely to be town than the worst?

[chavela]

Spoiler: long thread of bugs slipping

I love fast paced games, i can't really stand still for 5 days.

Risk was not big anyway.

why did you decide that the risk was not big?

2/9

I AM RUSSIAN RULETTE CHAMPION.

trust bugspray next round

i want to run the math on this

so if we assume ench town to make this exercise not pointless and hem+shiki is town that means tomorrow trusting me is 2/7 but 2/7*2/9 is under seven percent

hem why is that a good idea because statistically it isn't

why is it smart for enchant to trust me tomorrow?
by the numbers it's less than 7% that the yolo today and then tomorrow on me is safe

bugs, this confirms to me that deep inside, you're really mafia.

i dont think town would ask why it's a good idea for anyone to trust them. you're supposed to just internalize that Enchant is not in danger by doing so. there's no danger because if you're town (1) you won't accept it if you think Enchant is scum, and (2) town!Enchant does not need to worry that you're scum because you aren't.

you're telling us that Enchant will hit scum by trusting you.

gotcha

what the fuck are you on about?

do you have an actual deeper reason or are you just looking for a gotchta?

Monke means it's always safe to be trusted. You know you are town, therefore trusting you can't damage town, unless you accept trust back and it happen to be scum.

Therefore you should't ask if this is save for you to receive trust from me, because from your perspective it should be 100% save.

i think in their phrasing, bugs is actually more concerned for your safety than theirs — because of the larger probability to hit scum lmao

yes like from my perspective it is obviously good i was trying to look at it from not my perspective when understanding the things other people say

oh this;

yeah still feel the same way about this as before

like that just comes down to whether or not you think bugspray would have done it from their perspective instead of your perspective as town, which is kinda hard to answer

[chavela]

I don't get your point or bugs math

well bugspray’s ‘math’ doesn’t account for bugspray being town

which it is hard for me to tell if this was an oversight then corrected by the perspective thing

or if was simply doing it from monkey’s perspective to say monkey suggesting this was !!!

[chavela]

the math was from enchant's perspective

math is just the sequence of yolotrusts each day yeah?

were you trying to say

enchant should not be doing this? or monkey should not be suggesting this? or both?

and i guess what does that mean for alignments did/do you think?

[chavela]

they could have thought it was scummy for either/both of you consider doing this, no?