Open 878: Scarfolk Council | The End

[fireisredsir]

I changed my mind I don't look like fire's partner and you're a noob if you go that path

so true bestie

[fireisredsir]

yea i mean if you're town then i will be less confident in my ability to read you and ill also feel pretty bad for replacing in here and then getting you killed

and if you're town then sheep and aureal would probably be the first places im looking but id also be worried bc i would not really have a clue who the third would be

this post would be hilarious in hindsight if it's a 2 person scum team with sheep and aureal

[fireisredsir]

i lied again i got distracted looking at sheep

kinda thought going in that i was gonna scumread him more but im not as sure of that, some of the mid day 1 posting swayed me a bit. but i think if he is wolf he is just aiming for playing a super pure game where he is generally on the right side of things and is just kinda chilling to set up for endgame. which is a hard wolfgame to find. i think his posting today hasn't been as pure though, and some of the stuff surrounding skitter maybe

part of me does just want to sheep skitter on sheep idk. i wish she was still here. whos idea was it to kill her. not mine

[fireisredsir]

the team mafia large theme really was a super clean game from scum, kinda sad it was the only one i didn't follow at all as it was going

[fireisredsir]

hmm

was really feeling like dunn's scumgame in that was recognizable until i got to endgame where he flipped a switch and started playing more aggressively and confidently and it was v effective, i would have been fooled by it probably

[fireisredsir]

Spoiler: from another game

Subject: Mafia Invictus Redux [Game Over]

Cool. So now that we've established that VP Balter is wrong and bad, let's focus on the current game.

legendary post

[fireisredsir]

i mean im not scum

[fireisredsir]

btw i finished dunn meta refresher course and i actually really think he's town here

like a lot more confident than i thought i was

i was actually thinking that team mafia would show me his scumrange was wider than i thought it was bc i heard he played a good game. and he did. but the mindset and approach is still really different than how he's approaching this game, and how he approaches his town games, imo

[fireisredsir]

im like

[aisa ceph dunn]
[mena implosion]

gap

[egix]
[aureal sheep]

[fireisredsir]

ceph could fool me and id willingly let him so maybe he belongs in the bracket below that but i do think he feels town here pretty strongly

[fireisredsir]

a big part of looking like pure innocent town is avoiding letting tmi influence your play

the enchant elim was what the majority of town wanted

and in d1 and most of d2 his takes were mostly reasonable and towny and his strongest townreads were good choices for being town.

as i pointed out i don't think he played as pure around skitter, i think that's one of the places where if he is scum, he let scum agenda influence his play more than other times

[fireisredsir]

i feel like you misunderstood the point of my post?

i was not saying "sheep is scum bc he did this"

i was saying "if sheep is scum, he was doing this. which looks towny, and makes it hard to judge if he's scum or not"

it wasn't really a significant point i was just thinking out loud

[fireisredsir]

i don't understand why this is something you would pick to be combative about

[fireisredsir]

So you are trying to say that being on a bad elimination without reasons of your own is towny?

lol???

lmao???

[fireisredsir]

And please don't avoid the question about why you assert that the majority of town wanted Enchant. Two flipped town were there plus Enchant himself.

thread consensus was to lim enchant i don't think anyone was opposed to it besides andante iirc

[fireisredsir]

aureal is wolfy but I still think dunn is very wolf and am basically tunneled on dunn/fire until a flip

fire's post about meta was not convincing. I looked through dunn wolfgames, and my conclusion was basically "he has an insanely wide wolfrange so I dont think I will be able to give him meta points in this game," rather than "that game felt different than this game so he's villa". fire if ur v and want to convince me I'd probably want u to talk about why his past villa games and wolf games are noticeably different and then this looks like the first set, rather than mainly based on 1 game. The one line I can see here is that dunn seemed more interested in the wolf games I opened, and extreme refusal to put effort into this game could actually be town for some people with meta like that + explain some of the things I find wolfy lol. but I dont love that read because it still feels like theres some level of investment there that he pretends isnt there, as opposed to another half of the playerlist noping out and being like "I hate this game"

as scum he forces himself to talk about things that he doesn't really care about and as town he just talks about things that he cares about. i think it's noticeable when he's pushing himself to make a post

in both cases sometimes depending on the game he cares about more things or less things and activity can reflect that. and sometimes there's things he cares about as both alignments, like how activity isn't AI for him despite many people claiming it is

he's usually a bit cleaner as scum, making sure to justify progressions and show his work when developing a read on someone, while as town he doesn't really feel as much pressure to do that. i think his attitude also tends to come through a lot more as town, as scum there's definitely a bit of a wall up, and any arguments feel a little disengaged and precise

he's not an easy read bc i think he always has a bit of that wall up as either alignment, and isn't super forthcoming with his thoughts. but i think once you get a feel for the style of how he approaches things, you can see it. on a surface level the posting can look fairly similar but you have to look deeper for the intent behind the posts

[fireisredsir]

also it wasn't based on one game

[fireisredsir]

the team mafia game was just one i wanted to read bc i hadn't read it yet and i heard someone mention that he played to his town meta well in it so i wanted to see how true that was

[fireisredsir]

i thoroughly read through that one + legends of the business company, and reread invictus and spring fling

ive also read other dunn meta at other points when trying to read him

[fireisredsir]

also my posting about it wasn't intended to justify the read or convince anyone of anything, i was just updating where my head was at, so idk its a little weird to respond to it with "im not convinced by this"

[fireisredsir]

So you are trying to say that being on a bad elimination without reasons of your own is towny?

lol???

lmao???

That's not an answer so I'm going to assume you're just word salading some nonsense and can't answer because you don't actually have a worldview that makes any sense.

if any single other person in the game thinks my worldview doesn't make sense or that you're making any sort of reasonable or coherent point here then i will answer, otherwise i don't think that deserves a response lol

[fireisredsir]

also my posting about it wasn't intended to justify the read or convince anyone of anything, i was just updating where my head was at, so idk its a little weird to respond to it with "im not convinced by this"

ur meta read?

I thought he was definitely wolf and then u said u thought he was definitely villager

what else is the purpose of reads than to convince me there

me reading into dunn meta was something that i had been planning to do for a while for the purposes of trying to help me sort him

it didn't have anything to do with you

[fireisredsir]

i guess thats maybe a slightly towny thought process to think that my goal there would be to convince you of dunn being town but idk it's still weird

[fireisredsir]

if i had been attempting to convince you dunn was town i would be arguing against the points you were making or like at least making points of my own

i didn't really care about the points you were making idk sorry

[fireisredsir]

idk i think it's just kinda on a basic level hard for me to believe that anyone does (or even should) care about what i think or have to say lol

so i don't usually go all "hey im right and you all have to listen to me bc xyz!!"

especially when the people that i would care most about convincing want me dead. i find those kind of conversations to be really difficult

if someone asks then im usually happy to explain my thoughts tho

[fireisredsir]

So you are trying to say that being on a bad elimination without reasons of your own is towny?

lol???

lmao???

That's not an answer so I'm going to assume you're just word salading some nonsense and can't answer because you don't actually have a worldview that makes any sense.

if any single other person in the game thinks my worldview doesn't make sense or that you're making any sort of reasonable or coherent point here then i will answer, otherwise i don't think that deserves a response lol

"sheep is super pure"
"sheep was on both miseliminations"
"so what it was what town wanted"
"so you think miseliminating people just because town allegedly wants them flipped is super pure"
"lmao lol"

Yeah that's a nutty worldview that you don't want to own up to.

all of those except for "lmao lol" are misquoted and significantly change the meaning of what was said

[fireisredsir]

damn that's kinda sad

whoops

[fireisredsir]

i mean i kinda thought it was tmi on you being wolf lol but i dunno

[fireisredsir]

i reflected and determined it is because you are willfully twisting my words and choosing to take things to unreasonable conclusions in order to nitpick some point that is barely relevant to anything

that is why i stopped engaging

[fireisredsir]

btw im not currently voting bc i kinda think ideal play here is probably to lim who the consensus townreads think we should lim

id rather have implo/mena/aisa decide bc even if somehow that isn't all town, at the very least it should be less scum-dense than the group outside of it

and i think if we flip a town who isn't me, especially being pushed for by me or members of that outside group, that's like worst possible scenario and we probably insta lose

if we flip me, especially if there's 2 scum, maybe we don't? bc then whoever doesn't die of the townreads at least gets a chance to reset and reassess

doing that approach rather than straight up voting maybe makes it harder to see what scum are trying to do after it's been proposed so it does maybe make it harder to solve the team, so idk maybe there's issues with that

[fireisredsir]

im not interested in credit lol

i think it was clear what i was saying to any reasonable person reading in good faith

if someone else tells me that it wasn't then im wrong and i can explain it to them

[fireisredsir]

His apparent position of "person who voted out two town is super pure, person who voted out zero town has got to be scum" is actually logically consistent. 

i feel like this is so incredibly clearly not representative of my position

implosion how is this not willful

[fireisredsir]

oh shit waddup

[fireisredsir]

"super pure game" is literally the exact words used in 1897, it's not in any way a misrepresentation. That's literally what fire said. You just don't like it being pointed out that that's not true in any meaningful way that someone who wants to solve the game would use.

you are taking those words and applying them to a context that they were not used in, in order to misrepresent my position

[fireisredsir]

implosion how is this not willful

i feel like maybe 1% of mafia games have actual instances of mafia intentionally misinterpreting something to gain a rhetorical advantage. it's just so easy to refute by saying "no, i meant z, not y". As such I think it's an extremely high burden to show that someone is actually willfully misrepresenting something, at least that they're doing so in a way that is specifically as mafia trying to lie to gain rhetorical advantage in an argument. Maybe you're using the word willful differently from me.

I tend to think that this sort of thing is more often someone who misread something or misinterpreted some phrasing (because we're on the internet, and we don't have body language cues or tone of voice or anything that would make it easy to actually interpret what anyone is saying) and then got stubborn about it.

fair i guess

i do think the original thing she probably thought was a real point but the digging in and doubling down doesn't even feel like she's trying to approach the situation in good faith

[fireisredsir]

"super pure game" is literally the exact words used in 1897, it's not in any way a misrepresentation. That's literally what fire said. You just don't like it being pointed out that that's not true in any meaningful way that someone who wants to solve the game would use.

you are taking those words and applying them to a context that they were not used in, in order to misrepresent my position

There is no context other than THE ENTIRE REST OF THE GAME in which sheep twice voted out town and you call his game super pure despite that!

ok just to be super clear so this can be the last post on this useless topic

i am spoilering this bc i think this the usefulness:length ratio of this is extremely low

Spoiler:

i have been, over time, starting to lean scum more on sheep. i went to reread his iso to see how i felt about it now. there was a lot that felt pretty reasonable to me and like he was having generally accurate/good takes on the game and the content of his posts felt towny. i didn't really scumread his play as much as i thought i might, once i really read the things he was saying and the positions he was taking

i then thought about if sheep scum was capable of playing a game like that, and if he did, what his goals would be

i thought that he probably was just trying to look pure (meaning, look like someone who is uninformed and is genuinely trying to solve the game) so that he could collect townreads (which he did!) and set himself up to endgame. he didn't stray too far from consensus, he built a solid and probably accurate towncore, and didn't push anything too hard himself but mostly just vibed

"on the right side of things" meant more in terms of general position and reads and approach to the game in the day-to-day takes and reactions and arguments, which i weigh more strongly than where he ended up on the end of day wagons

as i pointed out in the original post, i thought some of the way that he angled towards the skitter wagon felt like it could be a little slimy (and i felt it at the time too, i told skitter then that if she was town then she was probably right on sheep bc i was feeling it a little bit then)

your posts seemed to completely miss all of the nuance of what i was saying and assign meanings to things that seemed to me like they were really obviously not what i was saying

i never said that sheep's being on the end of day wagons was towny (i don't think it's that scummy either, but i didn't really comment on it, it didn't factor in much to my read)

the post wasn't even really offering a read on sheep. it was just me thinking about what his goals might be if he were scum

i didn't say that i knew the exact alignment of everyone on the enchant wagon, but if the only person really opposing it was andante, then obviously most of town was in favor of it

you were arguing against things that i never said and the arguments didn't even make any sense but it felt ridiculous to argue against them when it wasn't even a position i took in the first place. it just felt like you were throwing random accusations out that had no bearing on what i had said and my reaction to that is generally "???????"

[fireisredsir]

i want my feelers out before i poof

philosophically i think claiming sooner > later works better but that might that i’m obsessed with a dumb em setup where masons claimed and people solved before they burned through cleats in a smaller pool

i remember hearing about this setup from a little birdie

[fireisredsir]

I once more apologize for doubting aisa was a villager

ok but can you address this:

So sheep. Honestly, something about the way in which sheep is indecisive right now is really offputting to me. I generally tend to think changing your mind is more often than not something town do more compared to scum. But that's not really exactly what sheep is doing, sheep had this feeling Aisa might be scum but then abandoned that feeling when, tbh, nothing really changed. Yeah Aisa townposted more but it's not like Aisa townposted in a way that she wasn't already doing. It kind of feels like if sheep is town who thinks Aisa is town then he should have figured that out a long time ago, or at least like, I'm not sure why he changed his mind now except that he's scum who just realizes she's never a viable push.

bc i still don't really get what about aisa's posting now suddenly is so different that you don't think it would be fakeable as scum

to the point where you're even apologizing for ever even thinking she could be scum

this latest post feels pretty on par with the stuff she's been doing all game (and also not out of her scumrange at all)

so i don't get what changed your opinion

[fireisredsir]

My impression of fire is biased in many ways, part of which is because I perceive fire as approaching the game of mafia in some ways similar to how I do, in that fire if scum is sort of trying to make the locally next best move without needing to think about the bigger picture necessarily because the bigger picture for fire is that fire needs to get townread and the way to do that is to act, in each moment, how fire would act as town. And I think fire, if scum, thinks that fire, as town, would just be going along like they've been doing in this day.

I do sort of wonder what they'd say about their own meta in this regard/if they think this is how they'd be playing today as scum.

idk how accurate that is exactly

i think i am good as scum at getting townread and knowing how to appear natural and all that, but primarily i am more of a long term planner than a live in the moment type

i don't generally attempt to act how i would as town, i act in ways that will set the team up to win the game. sometimes that means getting townread, sometimes not

so i think how id act here would really depend on my team. if there was someone positioned well and set up to win already, i probably would kinda let them do their thing and focus on trying to help them set up the win, maybe trying to push out a townie

if there wasn't, and everyone is in the poe, then the focus would probably be on making sure that 2 of us (if there's 3) are locked as unpaired, but not really caring who we elim, bc that isn't as important for winning the game. that might mean a hard bus or some in depth theatre. i think this world never really gets to this point bc there's no way i play yesterday how i did if im our team's best shot at endgaming

i don't think there's any world where i as scum pressure and bait mena upon entering lol bc as he said himself, that would be really dumb

i think i only would try to push out skitter like that as scum if i am okay trading myself for her because someone else can carry it to the end, so probably like you or aisa

[fireisredsir]

each time I read and reflect on her content I kinda find it >rand wolfy in that moment

is this usage of read pronounced like lead or like lead

[fireisredsir]

im still wondering what about her latest post didn't feel wolfy and in fact felt so couldn't be wolfy that you wanted to apologize for not seeing her as town before

is it just, now you see her as town, the tunnel is gone, so you can see her posts as town? there's no doubts that you backed off too easily or anything?

[fireisredsir]

yes. i agree with that

i think some of that indignantness can sometimes come from scum who went to great efforts to not be on miselim wagons bc they were hoping someone would later point out how towny that was and now they're annoyed that nobody seems to care

[fireisredsir]

He keeps throwing out comments that seem divorced from reality like he's got a narrative he wants to subtly push; like saying Cephrir was towny for being the one trying to start counter-wagons at the end of day two (he was not doing that)

it gets very tiring having to keep doing this but just bc ydra is new here and is lacking context, this is just flat out a lie, ceph was doing exactly that in 1527 and 1530 (and for more context, this is him pulling out of a pretty deep tunnel, which makes it more significant)

[fireisredsir]

gonna go ask my scum buddies in the pt to claim the towncred for pointing out that the link doesn't work, since i already got mine for that earlier

[fireisredsir]

If I miss nuance, please feel free to explain it to me, not lmao lol at me. Like I was today, I am often posting from work, looking in very briefly and taking in snippets at a time.

if you are town i apologize, it seemed too bad faith and too unreasonable for me to believe that you genuinely didn't get my point. if it really was so unclear then my bad

[fireisredsir]

https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/th ... ur-Power-1

does this work

i can get to the iso from there so yes

[fireisredsir]

what about the gamestate makes you concerned about me being town?

[fireisredsir]

I think aureal is wolfier but I am aboard the train that everyone else left that was fire lim feels more right here

aureal vote was a) I didnt want to put fire at e-1, b) symbolic vote / pressure for being wolfy (reason I think fire/aureal felt w/w is cuz I dont get why fire still refuses to vote aureal lol. I think village!fire would have a bit more eagerness at the possibility aureal somehow gets limmed over him today. or, eagerness to pressure aureal. but instead he's just compounding on condemning himself to death today, doing basically nothing with aureal, feels like he actively wants aureal not to die before him)

i don't tend to use my vote that actively in these type of situations

i also kinda started to second guess myself on aureal idk. and i want to see what ydra does

[fireisredsir]

idk

when I read fire's further explanation about why dunn is town by meta

I thought wow that makes sense and actually exactly fits dunn in this game, so I'll run with it

but I feel like the behavior in question could also be explained by not giving a shit about this game

like bothering a bit less to explain stuff and cover certain bases - maybe thats just the wolfgame but with less of a will to do stuff in this game because only 20% of the game is actively giving a shit

maybe he only has one wolf partner or theyre in a bad position so he cant bring himself to try the same way and that explains the disparity we're talking about over alignment reasons

idfk

what do you think about the chances of that fire

mmm idk ive read some wolfgames where i don't think he really cared about them and i still think they feel different

im not like 100% confident yes i can perfectly read dunn or anything so i could be wrong but i would be pretty surprised

especially w the andante case thing. like if he isn't that invested in the game then why does he care enough to pull that out

[fireisredsir]

Hmm fire you know my woo reaction test? Why do you find that towny?

it seemed like something that the town bunny in the field running around pushing buttons would do

there's just like an eagerness to solve the game and inquisitiveness behind it (which i think is also recognizable without meta)

it's not like it's something that's impossible for scum to fake it's just that idk if scum would even think of it?

i don't think it's a particularly strong part of my read anymore i admit i was being somewhat lazy before by townbinning mostly off that, i feel better about my reasons now

[fireisredsir]

i would like to hear from dunn about ydra bc i think despite my general wariness of her i am finding it hard not to believe what she's pointing out and i would like to at least hear an alternate viewpoint

[fireisredsir]

ydra have you seen sheep town

[fireisredsir]

i don't think sheep flipping scum makes ydra-scum stocks go down

[fireisredsir]

maybe a little bit i guess

[fireisredsir]

if i think that my vote can push aureal over the edge and also multiple people are saying we're not aligned

then why tf do i not just do that and take it to endgame myself

it's not like i would rather crawl my way 90% out of a hole and then be like "oop nvm i really wanted aureal to be the one living here!!"

[fireisredsir]

i don't know how you think there's ever a world where i'm w/w with aureal and i want to die before her that badly

[fireisredsir]

i would like to hear from dunn about ydra bc i think despite my general wariness of her i am finding it hard not to believe what she's pointing out and i would like to at least hear an alternate viewpoint

What do you mean by this?

basically just you had a scumread on the slot + you know ydra, wanted to hear if you had any thoughts on her entrance in general and her approach to things so far

do you still think she's the best lim here? if so can you sell people on it a little bit? and if not who's your second choice?

[fireisredsir]

ydra whats your read on me independent of sheep

[fireisredsir]

ydra whats your read on me independent of sheep

eeeehhhhhhh
i don't think i know how to read your tonally or whatever but i think your posting day two isn't terrific, you make some weird like theoretical thoughts/worlds like where you wonder about wolves in the drivers seat and you were part of the reason skitter died given your casing and in general you've been a slot that's failed to resolve despite people trying to kill you which is a curiosity in of itself,

looking at today's wagon on you it looks like it's mostly people who are probably town voting you which is like, what are the wolves doing if you're town, i guess choosing not to kill you or being afraid of having to do it? yesterday's wagon on you is a little more seedy to me with dunn/ceph but it's like. you keep cropping up but no one wants to bite which is just ?

that doesn't say a lot but i'm unsure of how to word it, if you're a wolf i guess your partners want to keep you alive rather than defaulting to bussing, if you're town wolves probably don't want blood on their hands or are saving to kill you later where they'll be like, "oh look fire is still here :/ how did they wiggle out smh"

i wouldn't be upset if you were wagoned and killed tbqh, it avoids a lot of worst case scenarios and i have people who i know i would never wagon today and probably for most of the game so. a shrug and a thumbs down

hmmm okay that helps i guess

i was feeling concerned that it seemed like you were kinda avoiding digging into sorting me, which i wouldn't really expect from you as town, where i could see some potential scum motivation for delaying that project (for example, until after sheep flips, especially if you are scum+sheep town then you may not want to give a read on me that you may end up needing to reverse trajectory on later idk)

in theory it should probably make me feel better that you eagerly gave a full dose of thoughts rather than something cagey but i suppose if you were scum you could deduce that being cagey would not be the response that im looking for

your focus so far does seem kinda singular (ok i have meta on sheep. i want to sort sheep. i think sheep is scum. i want to lim sheep.) rather than taking everything in and solving the game overall. ik it's a lot of game but still

[fireisredsir]

i guess it's fairly likely that based on that post there were those underlying thoughts already and you just hadn't talked about them yet, which is probably +town if true

[fireisredsir]

aaaaaaaaaaaaa

[fireisredsir]

i feel like my poe is really narrow to the point where basically everyone in it or almost everyone in it (if 2 scum) is scum and that stresses me out

especially bc i don't especially feel that confident that any individual one of them will flip scum

but i wouldn't want to flip anyone outside that group either

and idk what to do

[fireisredsir]

i don't like making decisions

[fireisredsir]

basically still just ydra slot, then sheep and aureal, it's been that way for a while

i don't think ive changed my mind on anyone above that

[fireisredsir]

sheep is probably the slot that i feel worse about limming if im wrong which sometimes means it's right

[fireisredsir]

what if we did aureal instead

[fireisredsir]

is that a bad idea

im weak

[fireisredsir]

VOTE: aureal

e-1

[fireisredsir]

it's more about what you choose to spend your time on than how much time you are dedicating

[fireisredsir]

like idk in this back and forth sheep is right

you're both using about the same number of posts and words but his are interspersed with what at least look like genuine attempts to solve the game and adjust his worldview based on new thoughts and information and treating things with at least some amount of nuance

that last part i don't think is very hard for him to fake but the rest at least takes more than just responding to points and defending

[fireisredsir]

i think these last couple pages are some of the better posting sheep has done in a while (as either alignment tbh, but i think it's generally towny and it a higher bar of scumposting than he's had if scum)

so i would encourage people not to just skip past them

[fireisredsir]

i think so too

[fireisredsir]

how is that your response to that question

like what is your answer to the question that was asked

[fireisredsir]

idk why you're taking that post as an attack it's just trying to clarify???

[fireisredsir]

i think it's ydra as well probably

[fireisredsir]

egix treatment of aureal slot is pretty bad

[fireisredsir]

genuinely could be mena if there's a 3rd lol but maybe that's a lazy take

[fireisredsir]

i would expect some attempts to distance/appear unaligned among the team

but maybe they went for the wifom strategy of just openly pushing for what they want bc people are going to second guess it anyway so you might as well take the town lim that's given

[fireisredsir]

there's basically nothing that progresses in any direction towards solving the game or finding scum or even being willing to state an opinion on who she thinks is scum in any of aureal's last 10 posts

[fireisredsir]

also fwiw sheeping dead town can be good to an extent but dead town don't always agree with their past selves

if skitter were still in the game she may have a different opinion based on new information

i don't really think the level of content with which to sort sheep off was sufficient as of day 2

[fireisredsir]

how is that your response to that question

like what is your answer to the question that was asked

I have little patience for meaningless questions right now! If anything that was an attempt by sheep to suggest that if you did succeed in your miselim on me here, people should go after Ceph next, not you two. And that's pretty crappy. I don't have time to evaluate the whole damn game but the way you and sheep have been working together against me makes me think there's got to be scum between you two, if not both. Ceph and his LOLOL LET'S JUST KILL TOWNIES IDC is a different beast entirely and not where I'd look first.

asking who you think is scum is like the exact opposite of a meaningless question

thats literally the only thing you should be concerned about rn

[fireisredsir]

everyone's cute

[fireisredsir]

i don't think it's impossible but it is less likely

[fireisredsir]

hi dunn

[fireisredsir]

it sure would

[fireisredsir]

i was feeling that like a day ago but i am no longer feeling that

[fireisredsir]

also fwiw sheeping dead town can be good to an extent but dead town don't always agree with their past selves

Oh and now you're saying stuff about how it would be meaningless anyway for me to be doing the thing that you're up in arms about me not doing to your satisfaction. It's like you're just trying to upset me.

what

that post had nothing to do with you that was about people (mostly was talking to implo tbh) feeling tied to sheeping skitter's read on sheep

how does me saying "you don't always have to sheep dead town" have anything to do with me asking you to tell me who you think is scum

can you chill with the ate about everything

[fireisredsir]

maybe you could actually explain what your reads are instead of refusing to do that and then yelling at people when they can't figure out what they are

[fireisredsir]

like if you've given up and just want to antispew at least stop being mean lol

or alternatively

give your reads

[fireisredsir]

ive been through 4 games where town aureal got elimmed so far and none of them are remotely like this, she continues trying to solve to the end

[fireisredsir]

yea im heading out for a while i agree this isn't useful anymore

[fireisredsir]

i do not know how to explain her behavior besides that she thinks she's getting limmed

[fireisredsir]

or at least thinks it's pretty likely which imo it is

[fireisredsir]

as of 2174 yesterday i was pretty on the fence between sheep and aureal and worrying about the possibility that everything is wrong and what if they're both town

and since then i went from that to:

first, "oh no sheep's reaction to hammer intent feels towny. what if we pressure aureal too"

then, "hm sheep looks even townier, and aureal's reaction feels really scummy"

to then, "i think sheep is more likely to be town and aureal very likely to be scum"


over the course of a few pages that multiple people i think are town hadn't/haven't read and digested yet

so idk i kinda thought i might not be the only one whose reads change as a result of those pages, if i see it a certain way i think it's possible that other town will see the same

i don't know how aureal views the situation but i think there's believable ways she might see things that would result in her posting this way as scum, and i don't think the approach/response to things feels like town at all regardless of how she sees things

[fireisredsir]

it wasn't really ever clear to me that she thought she had scum pushing her until pretty recently

when asked to clarify about that she dodged the question

[fireisredsir]

i didn't say that he couldn't have been read

but skitter's scumread was mostly bc he started out towny and then fell off and started coasting

i don't think thats applicable at all anymore

[fireisredsir]

I am starting to buy that sheep could be scum. Feels like he's been left behind in the gamestate.

I'm also open to hearing what Aisa has to say about Aureal.

I think the townreads I feel best about in this exact moment are Aisa, Menalque, then Dunnstral, followed by Ceph and Aureal and then probably still sheep. Leaving fire/skitter/egix (which is very much Not The Scumteam lol) and the vacant Andantemeg slot which I guess I still think is town but golly it'd be nice to have someone piloting the slot.

yes this is what i was saying like four days ago ... i feel like he should have gotten back into it by now if he's town tbh
i wouldn't mind voting him

like it was this + her thinking his vote on her was slimy

[fireisredsir]

that was one of the ones i read and i don't think it's very similar bc there was an energy of "can't you all see how obvious of a scum push on me this is??" that i think was really lacking here in favor of self-defense and AtE but w/e

[fireisredsir]

idk maybe im wrong ill stop pushing so much for now but ill still be around before deadline

[fireisredsir]

And that was an incredibly wooden vote by Dunn.

i actually agree with this tbh

[fireisredsir]

sometimes he is just like that but aaaah

[fireisredsir]

rip

[fireisredsir]

ok so that was deeply embarrassing ngl

but uh

gj team

[fireisredsir]

hmmm

[fireisredsir]

i think that sheep posted enough and i feel like i play scum w a somewhat similar approach to him that it's pretty possible on a reread i would feel okay about guessing what he was trying to accomplish with his posts, especially on d1/d2 (i still feel like the main goal of d3 was probably appear unaligned)

i haven't done that and am unusually busy for the next couple days but i will try to do that

[fireisredsir]

my like immediate gut take is that i could be wrong on dunn and im less confident on ceph which kinda sucks

[fireisredsir]

no you can definitely judge im pretty bad

[fireisredsir]

tbh if we have 2 scum then just yeet me it'll make it easier and we have the room to do it

[fireisredsir]

i do think it is possibly the worst plan in the world (currently assuming we're in a 2 scum world based on how the claims are going) for me as scum to enter yesterday being like okay, im gonna reaffirm townreads and try to narrow things down to a poe

and then spend a lot of effort doing that, including my scum partner in the poe, and generally throughout the day being fine with limming him and even at some points leaning towards limming him

only to in the last few hours of the day suddenly decide to flip and try to hard push out the counter alongside him which gets us basically nowhere closer to winning the game even if we succeed

i think i either include him in the poe and try to push for him to be limmed bc we want me to endgame and keep myself as clean as possible (decent path if i think i can convince people im town) or we let me be the lim and set things up to allow him to endgame and look clean (a little harder i think? either could work depending on how we played it), or we go for the bold strategy of trying to both win by one of us convincing people that the other belongs in the towncore (risky and difficult)

instead we just decided to try to both burn all of our cred at once in order to... force out aureal?? which even if we succeed would leave us still one day away from elo with a 0% chance that we live after doing that?

like i know that nobody is gonna be convinced by this post and nobody should be, bc if this argument was convincing then there's an avenue where the plan could actually end up somehow working lol

but still

[fireisredsir]

anyway thats my one allotted ranting post about this i will spend any remaining energy on reassessing within [dunn, ceph, aureal, ydra]

[fireisredsir]

i know you're not persuaded

but also i think it's different to make an active choice that directly runs counter to any previous planning that we would have had

[fireisredsir]

also it wasn't facetious at all i genuinely feel pretty bad about my play this game (i guess assuming aureal is town? if she isn't then i feel less bad)

i am very glad that implo and aisa held strong and found the lim on sheep either way

[fireisredsir]

but pog we have 2 scum then right?

[fireisredsir]

meaning only 1 left

[fireisredsir]

if there's 2 then i really think they set themselves up on opposite sides of the day yesterday to seem as unaligned as possible

[fireisredsir]

feeling ydra>aureal>dunn>ceph rn but i want to read to try to figure out what sheep was doing on d1 and d2

[fireisredsir]

honestly i really wish i had understood the setup better that there could be only 2 scum bc i think a lot of my assumptions early one were kinda faulty if there wasn't necessarily 3 scum (like believing the game was hard and there had to be scum in the people driving the game)

im blaming my bad play on that

[fireisredsir]

I too think Aureal looks a bit townier in light of the flip. Two reasons for this:
1. I don't think her behaviour towards sheep looked especially partnered,
2. Just knowing that sheep was mafia kinda snaps me out of the trance of "Aureal might be scum!!1" and, I think, takes power out of the case on Aureal.

It's heartening to see that Ceph's newest posts also have a sense of this

2. Because aureal's meltdown makes even more sense if her partner is getting run up too

I still wanna ask why you think / thought this

it feels kind of self explanatory... she'd have no positive way out of the situation, be actively losing the game and feeling helpless about it, and maybe even want to make some bad posts in order to die if she thought sheep had more longevity

this may be me holding onto hope that im not completely bad but this does make some sense to me

implosion was asking about why scum aureal would ever do that, and i think a world where the plan was for sheep to endgame and aureal to die, only for things to start to tilt towards sheep, is definitely a possibility

if there's one thing that y'all listen to after i flip (it sure shouldn't be my reads lol) its that please PLEASE do not clear anyone as unaligned off day 3 play because i think scum's main goal there would be to appear unaligned. even knowing there was only 2. maybe especially knowing there was only 2

[fireisredsir]

Cat Scratch Fever do u happen to have any reads on the active posters now? like andante/alianna/me etc.
it's kinda bugging me how ur avoiding commenting on relevant stuff

otherwise I would be townreading u lol. 151 and 213 are rly good imo

also what do I call u is it like Cat or CSF or something

I'm kind of gutreading Alianna and Andante as both town

I uh don't really have much of an impression on you except that your vote on Drew was potentially interesting, sorry!

I think the Drew wagon seems like it was whipped up out of nothing and kinda ??? to me

this is probably the most significant interaction of the early pages

it's a pretty weird post (from sheep)

could be trying to look like he's pocketing but actually is trying to give his partner a path into the game

i don't really think CSF's early posting is as good as i thought it was originally

[fireisredsir]

I think woo posting is rife with more disconnects to accompany the one drew pointed out

I am not sure I understand why I am being wagoned, but hello o/ Lookin like wagons are forming and dissipating in the span of a handful of post

Well, you have two votes on you which is nominally a wagon. Do either of the votes on you make you think anything about the people voting you?

Nah, not really. They thought I was inactive and wanted to pressure. It's pretty NAI, scum could do it for the town vibes.

this just seems like a direct contradiction to me

I was also going to townread woo like, doubling down that he had no reads + nothing meaningful happened so far (last line of 247, 251). but then he talks about andante like a normal scum read. idk something feels fake

i don't really know what this positioning accomplishes if woo is a partner

doesn't vibe as a distance post it feels more like pushing things into the spotlight

especially when calling for drew-woo wagons but voting drew

[fireisredsir]

i think ive found a recognizable pattern of play that sheep likes to apply to people in order to build connections and generate content. see interaction with aisa starting in 482

i would be pretty willing to bet that he doesn't do this in this way to a partner so im gonna look for more of these

[fireisredsir]

i recognize it bc i do it as scum too lol

and i think i only really do it with partners when i know them and have comfortable rapport w them, which i don't think sheep would with any of his possible partners here

[fireisredsir]

ok everyone im pretty sure i've figured out that sheep isnt aligned with skitter

[fireisredsir]

i think CSF's positioning around enchant is fairly scummy actually in hindsight around post 850 and i think sheep may have kinda noticed and tmi'd it a bit in 875 (and then never really revisited this take)

[fireisredsir]

still can't believe mena really thought the scumteam was gonna sell out to save enchant of all people and fall for the most telegraphed reaction test of all time

[fireisredsir]

i got to the point where i replaced in and im still kinda confused why y'all wanted to kill my slot so badly

[fireisredsir]

But as of right now I'm kinda feeling like:

Aisa
implo
sheep
gwoo

are my prob towns

Okay, coming back to this:

- I can't remember why I had implo that high, he should be more like at the low end of the town pile (just vibes)
- I should have included Andante here, but simply presumed she would be self-resolving due to the PR claim
- Adding Ceph to this because I think he looked townier than skitter in the interactions they had earlier this Day
- fire is townier than Alianna was. I don't wanna go as far as saying "ooh I townread this slot now!" but I did not want there to be a hammer yet.
- I kinda think that Aureal's slot is just obv town at this point, her posting is even better than GWoo's was.

So, seems like that leaves me with Dunn, Mena, or skitter as my vote.

I don't have a case ready yet but I'll

VOTE: skitter

as she's the one I have the worst vibes from atm. (I skimmed her iso earlier so I should be able to elaborate when I have more time)

[fireisredsir]

i think ive found a recognizable pattern of play that sheep likes to apply to people in order to build connections and generate content. see interaction with aisa starting in 482

i would be pretty willing to bet that he doesn't do this in this way to a partner so im gonna look for more of these

What do you think of page 89?

im not sure

i think under the pressure of being limmed he would act different and it's harder to judge if it was antispew or genuinely trying to force out a town

it doesn't feel like the thing i was talking about bc thats more of a midgame thing to establish presence in the game

idk i need to keep reading to see how things got to the point of sheep vs aureal

[fireisredsir]

@aureal, @implo, fire votes pls?

I would be willing to do sheep > fire today if that means not doing skitter

*spins, falls down*

I'm trying to poke at a few ISOs, but I feel like nobody's really addressed the concern about the fire wagon that I've brought up a couple of times. Can you go more in depth into why you're still set on fire being scum? He's explained that he was intentionally being more aggressive than needed to test your reaction, but I guess you don't believe that? I still just don't see much reason for scum fire to try to take you down into limmable territory as you said- you're probably the most widely townread slot in the game. If fire is scum, he knows you're town and thus are probably going to just pull out another big towny explanation in response to his push at you, right?

hm the spinning and falling down here

while i initially thought it was scummy and wanting to preserve the gamestate of me vs skitter without really committing to a side

i didn't really realize until rereading after sheep flip that this came with the context of skitter pushing pretty hard for sheep and then mena saying he would be willing to do sheep if it meant not skitter

given that context i think this might actually be towny?

[fireisredsir]

I was going to write about aureal being wolfy but that post resolves a lot of my concerns

this game is just fucked so weird

then again this is a pretty iffy response to that post lol

i wish I'd asked at the time what concerns that resolved

[fireisredsir]

I was going to write about aureal being wolfy but that post resolves a lot of my concerns

this game is just fucked so weird

You've got some pretty weird progression on my slot, lol. Here, I just ISOed you, here's a few of my thoughts to which I'll add that.

votes Drew in 240, no reasoning given and I'm not seeing anything coming soon afterwards
poking skeptically at other people like Alianna (108, 242) CSF (241), Woo (311, 313), Aisa (401, 482, 487) but apparently not skeptical enough to move off the unexplained Drew vote
tries to ask people about skitter, has expressed no read (495, 555)
566 is a readlist with Drew at the bottom, still no explanation for that, just feels confident (655, 665)
then 874 and 875 basically just say Enchant should be resolved, still only because "not doing legit stuff"
D2 opening is weird, thinks Aisa's movements at end of D1 is wolfy and I've no idea why
lots more concern about Aisa throughout the day, pulling back a bit (1135, 1323)
read on CSF keeps going back and forth
doubt about fire wagon, doubt about skitter, townreads me for no reason (1367) and just now expresses worry that was never expressed prior but it's okay because my post cleared it up

dunn is a bit of an enigma and i have trouble seeing beneath the surface for him so he's difficult for me to read

my original suspicion was more of a "i could see dunn being scum this game" than anything with a good reason behind it

i also don't really like that aureal has been voteparked there while spinning around not knowing what to do with the two main wagons

Well, after that I think I'm back to my Dunn/sheep thing. So yeah.

Feels like we're more likely to go for sheep here from what people have been saying, unless Merlyn is being really convincing where I couldn't be (which is totally possible)? Can we make one of them a wagon? Merlyn whatcha think about sheep?

and then this response to that is maybe towny again??

it's an extremely unconvincing iso dive but again at the time i thought that was scum struggling to fake analysis on town

and she does push the possibility of building momentum towards sheep more than i initially realized

[fireisredsir]

I was going to write about aureal being wolfy but that post resolves a lot of my concerns

this game is just fucked so weird

This is more for a future day, but what concerns did you have, and how did Aureals post resolve them?

I felt like they were hinting at wariness about the fire wagon but not being outright enough. struggling to find the words to describe it rn; like shading the fire wagon. like when I felt weird about the fire wagon (first I talked about how I felt about the wagon and then I saw aureal's earlier posts) I feel like I did it much more directly. the recent post is like definitely very direct and I think her concerns about red wagon are pretty similar to what my concerns were lol with some differences but similar enough that it's like a mind meld

oh hey here's the answer i wanted. thank you merlyn

possibly lightly unpartnery idk

[fireisredsir]

hm

tbh at first thought I just dont find it compellingly scummy. which feels sorta rude because I cant rly explain it at all lol im sorry.

I was gonna ask if ur familiar with dunn but I saw u said ur not; I think if u were you might find this stuff more nai, maybe not fully, but I can just very easily see it as villa!dunn who just pokes around and doesnt think he needs to explain himself lol

that is what my personal response looks like

if anything I think dunn being so unexplained lurking-in-the-shadows says town-dunn to me lmao but thats leaning into gutty reads to ideally not rely on mid-game

this take on dunn being like the opposite read for the same reasons as he says later is p weird? unsure how to interpret that but it's probably significant

[fireisredsir]

I would kill sheep > aureal, if that's the direction we're going in then I'll stop pushing fire because I think we should only have one more slot claim today at most

I agree with the first bit, but unless you now think that fire v skitter is tvt then I don't see why we shouldn't just stay the course.

ok sorry yea everyone please like read pages 58 to 61 or so

VOTE: ydrasse

[fireisredsir]

egix is like iffy-town lol, I liked csf and then I sorta like some stuff but I feel like he's being relatively unreadable to me and it means he has to trend into "iffy" territory. hopefully we are around at the same time sometime to converse

can easily see this coming from someone who is self-aware that he doesn't have enough natural interaction with his partner

[fireisredsir]

that was the main conclusion but i also think it's probably egix

[fireisredsir]

i forgot to include page 62 that one is also important

[fireisredsir]

yea i guess its more thinking it isn't anyone else and also those posts were bad

[fireisredsir]

with a 3p scum team i think there's more room to play around and do things like have one member dismantle a tvt for endgame cred, but with 2 scum i think there's more incentive to stick with your partner on d2

[fireisredsir]

ok when i try to predict whats going on in the scum pt like this im never right but someday i will be

but i could easily see sheep being a pretty chatty scum pt user and being like "man aureal has such pure tone idk if i am able to push her" and egix seeing that and being like "hmm yes i agree" and then taking it into thread lol

[fireisredsir]

i don’t care if i die today since i won’t have to go near endgame but i feel that it should be incredibly obvious that my move as partner yesterday was to not hellbus my partner and then do nothing with that credit

i don't think that would be like your main goal/plan but i could see it happening

i don't think aureal's pattern of play makes any more sense so

can you try to read dunn

[fireisredsir]

or ceph i guess

[fireisredsir]

most people would probably be more likely to clear you off it

you have 4 people you can probably lim and there's no PRs

if you defend sheep and keep him alive and flip say, aureal, i don't think thats a winning path to endgame. you still need 2 more miselims and you're both in the poe and it's shrinking. i think it makes more sense to try to get one of you out of the poe rather than just try to live through 3 days of flips within it

i think the "do nothing with the credit" is probably the more convincing point but idk there's other possible reasons for that

[fireisredsir]

ok i mean yea either it's in ceph/dunn/me (the people who voted aureal) or scum voted sheep

so yea we could just yeet those three and hope that scum committed to trying to keep both partners alive but i think we're probably capable of better than that and i don't think it's silly to consider worlds where scum bussed

maybe it is one of ceph/dunn idk im not ruling that out, if you're town then id like your takes on them

[fireisredsir]

I would kill sheep > aureal, if that's the direction we're going in then I'll stop pushing fire because I think we should only have one more slot claim today at most

I agree with the first bit, but unless you now think that fire v skitter is tvt then I don't see why we shouldn't just stay the course.

ok sorry yea everyone please like read pages 58 to 61 or so

VOTE: ydrasse

Oh this is like, where I actually give arguments against sheep where it seemed possible to get another counterwagon going on him. Which apparently you totally tuned out I guess because you decided I was scum or something.

And then nobody can understand why I'm all "!?!?!???!?" when you say CEPH was the one trying to find a different wagon.

VOTE: Ydrasse

yeah reading it back this last time, i kinda did before i guess, my bad

i do think that ceph stepping back after being tunneled feels more significant to me than you who hadn't ever landed on a place to go

but i think knowing sheep is scum and knowing that you were trying specifically to go to sheep does make those points stand out more than they did before

[fireisredsir]

aureal is wolfy but I still think dunn is very wolf and am basically tunneled on dunn/fire until a flip

fire's post about meta was not convincing. I looked through dunn wolfgames, and my conclusion was basically "he has an insanely wide wolfrange so I dont think I will be able to give him meta points in this game," rather than "that game felt different than this game so he's villa". fire if ur v and want to convince me I'd probably want u to talk about why his past villa games and wolf games are noticeably different and then this looks like the first set, rather than mainly based on 1 game. The one line I can see here is that dunn seemed more interested in the wolf games I opened, and extreme refusal to put effort into this game could actually be town for some people with meta like that + explain some of the things I find wolfy lol. but I dont love that read because it still feels like theres some level of investment there that he pretends isnt there, as opposed to another half of the playerlist noping out and being like "I hate this game"

as scum he forces himself to talk about things that he doesn't really care about and as town he just talks about things that he cares about. i think it's noticeable when he's pushing himself to make a post

in both cases sometimes depending on the game he cares about more things or less things and activity can reflect that. and sometimes there's things he cares about as both alignments, like how activity isn't AI for him despite many people claiming it is

he's usually a bit cleaner as scum, making sure to justify progressions and show his work when developing a read on someone, while as town he doesn't really feel as much pressure to do that. i think his attitude also tends to come through a lot more as town, as scum there's definitely a bit of a wall up, and any arguments feel a little disengaged and precise

he's not an easy read bc i think he always has a bit of that wall up as either alignment, and isn't super forthcoming with his thoughts. but i think once you get a feel for the style of how he approaches things, you can see it. on a surface level the posting can look fairly similar but you have to look deeper for the intent behind the posts

this basically

im not like 100% convinced by it idk. i really didn't like his aureal vote even when i thought aureal was scum, although the way he's approached today so far doesn't really feel like scum? and maybe the vote fits into what i said here about not minding that his progression wasn't clean? but there were moments i remember in invictus where (with some encouragement iirc) he made similar somewhat risky choices that came out sounding similarly stiff

the way sheep interacted around asking me for it is potentially useful info but i haven't gotten that far yet

[fireisredsir]

sheep is probably the slot that i feel worse about limming if im wrong which sometimes means it's right

i don't think this has ever been wrong in these type of situations btw and yet i always think "but maybe not this time"

[fireisredsir]

it was more about aureal to me on those pages, but then that post showed up right after what looked to me like momentum starting to potentially shift towards sheep

[fireisredsir]

i appreciate that you're reading and considering at least tho

[fireisredsir]

What is making me hesitate to say it is Ydrasse is that they voted for sheep yesterday.

can you elaborate on your thoughts

[fireisredsir]

Ok I skimmed two Dunn games (specifically, mafia: viewtopic.php?t=90967 , town: viewtopic.php?t=91073) and I

think

he looks a little closer to the town game here? I have very low confidence in this conclusion but it is a conclusion nonetheless.

I'd describe the difference between the two games as: in the town game it feels like he has more posts where he is "thinking out loud" or presenting half-baked musings ("I wonder if this means that X is town", "one idea I had was that..."). In the scum game he was (imo) more likely to just state a conclusion ("I think this makes [player] scum").

(Idk what I was expecting but the difference ended up being simpler than I thought.)

I had some sort of epiphany yesterday that allowed me to townlean Dunn. I wish I could remember what the epiphany was

I remembered btw but in hindsight it was not based on much

im sort of losing confidence in my dunn read btw

[fireisredsir]

i think CSF's positioning around enchant is fairly scummy actually in hindsight around post 850 and i think sheep may have kinda noticed and tmi'd it a bit in 875 (and then never really revisited this take)

This seems a bit tinfoil-y, I think 875 is one of those fairly boilerplate posts scum make to justify jumping on a wagon and I don’t think it tells you much about what sheep’s partner must have been thinking or doing at the time

maybe its bc 875 was like one of the key posts that made me townread sheep every time i came back to it, idk

i think it just felt like a really good take and it felt accurate and i was thinking the same thing. didn't feel boilerplate at all to me, it seemed like there was real insight there

and so i was thinking that insight could have come from knowing it was true

i think CSF kinda being hesitant to find enchant scummy in the way she did was lightly scummy bc most of town did find enchant scummy and did find implosion's case convincing. i also think that trying to mostly focus elsewhere and push a different read is where i think scum might try to look busy and position around a town led wagon. i think sheep had the right of it actually in allowing himself to get swept up in the enchant suspicion, because that's what most of town was doing. but i don't think it's a particularly natural or comfortable thing for scum to do. scum often feel that hesitation around that type of situation because they know that it's wrong and it's hard for them to see why town is suspicious of a slot that looks like low hanging fruit to them

[fireisredsir]

To those who worried the wagon on enchant was too easy yesterday — look how much more difficult the fire wagon is proving to be and there is a more meaningful effort to counterwagon onto skitt

still reading but I think this is an unfair point to make as fire is playing the game while enchant did something other than that

I mean I’m reading fire but idk why you asked me to go back when this… does not look good for you

like i said it's mostly about aureal

idc how i look lol

[fireisredsir]

mostly its just a really significant portion of the game where things are loosely starting to shift away from the tvt of me vs skitter and people are opening up to the possibility of limming sheep, murmurings are building from multiple town angles, and it isn't ever really fully shut down until implosion shows back up basically like "ok we're doing fire or skitter"

i think in that time in between, the gamestate was kinda up in the air, and seeing how everyone responded to that shift in the game and how they may have tried in influence it or react to it is really telling

and i think notably ceph and aureal responded in a towny way and then i think egix showed up with one of the scummiest possible reactions to the situation imo

i guess maybe its less significant without knowing my alignment lole but idk just flip me and then look at it afterwards

[fireisredsir]

I think I’m basically at the same point I was a couple days ago, where I feel fairly good that flipping {fire, Ydra, Dunn} ends the game but trying to choose the exact yeet causes much anguish

im probably good with this

[fireisredsir]

i think im dunn > aureal at this point

[fireisredsir]

How are you cool with 2539 then?

i meant as scum

[fireisredsir]

oh i see ydra used the same phrasing to mean something else

she meant "go aureal into dunn"

i meant "i scumread dunn more than aureal"

[fireisredsir]

(!!!!! the hamster in the wheel is still reeling from thinking about that Egix post)

this is how i felt and why my reaction to it was vote + plead for everyone to read those pages lol

[fireisredsir]

everyone honestly should probably not listen to me at all and should make their own choices instead lol

[fireisredsir]

oh good i was nervous

[fireisredsir]

aaaaaa we did it

[fireisredsir]

sorry skitter (and aureal)

[fireisredsir]

All images and flavor text are © Richard Littler, 2013 - 2023.