Mini Normal 2316 | Halloween | Endgame

[OutWorldER]

hey there

VOTE: heipizhu4

[OutWorldER]

VOTE: DragonEater70

24 was really bad and I don't see a town motivation to post it.

[OutWorldER]

If you could produce a specific example to support that because I briefly skimmed some other games of his and nothing really strikes me the way that 24 does. It just really hits as a scum fretting over apperance whereas I think Town would probably be chill enough to just let the naked vote lie.

[OutWorldER]

VOTE: DragonEater70

24 was really bad and I don't see a town motivation to post it.

DE's normally like that, I don't think 24 is alignment indicative

24 also caught my eye on my initial readthrough (though not to the same intensity as Wartortle is making out). But unless you're bold enough to defend your partner's bad page one post on page two, I'll take this as face value.

So, what else? Wartortle scum for continuing to push this narrative even when there's new evidence to work against it?

VOTE: Wartortle

I was not pushing a narrative but if you wanted an example of what that would look like you can use this post.

VOTE: TheHoldSteady

[OutWorldER]

Back from closing shift and catching up. The interactions on page 6 with DE are giving me a pretty solid TR on Wiz right now. Actively solving and to me at least it feels like he's a genuinely uninformed party, something I'm not sure I can explain why I feel that way beyond a general vibes thing.

Nothing has jumped out to me as particularly scummy since my last vote so I'm happy keeping on THS here since his response to Wartortle wasn't great. I'm still not huge on DE, I feel like despite committing to pressuring Wiz a lot of his posts are softballs, though I admit that may just be the nature of how early it is in the game. Also not a huge fan of Python, they point out Naerys vote on the THS wagon but I feel like their own vote they made their isn't much better, really haven't been a fan of any of their votes past RVS tbh.

[OutWorldER]

"Hop on the bandwagon"? BlackStar doesn't even have a vote down as of right now (which admittedly bothers me despite him having SR's on two people both of which he could reasonably place a vote down on). Incredibly defensive, my confidence in a THS vote only increases.

[OutWorldER]

i'd think up a funny response to enchant's opening but I have to go to work so all the funny has left my body.

Anyways I do have to go to work so offline until tomorrow, I'm in agreement with BlackStar actually that I think 168 puts a lot of defensiveness in context and sounds like a genuinely frustrated townie, though one that I think is jumping the gun a little bit.

I think I'm gonna park my vote on Hu Tao while I'm at work because her intro and subsequent disappearance didn't exactly enthuse me towards the slot and I like pressuring lurkers D1.

VOTE: Hu Tao

[OutWorldER]

OutWorldER(says he likes to pressure lurkers but lurks himself)

:p unfortunately I work closing shifts which bites into most of my free time. I've been trying to keep up but it's difficult.

I don't really agree with Wortle's opener being scum theater it looked a lot more like townie trying to bait interaction to me and I think he's been fairly townie since then as well.

Keeping my vote on Hu Tao because 217 is awful.

[OutWorldER]

Also not a huge fan of Python, they point out Naerys vote on the THS wagon but I feel like their own vote they made their isn't much better, really haven't been a fan of any of their votes past RVS tbh.

Our problem with Naerys isn't that she voted for THS but that her vote feels like it was made to say anything at all about wartle who she was sheeping

This doesn't really refute the point I was making that your own vote on the THS wagon isn't really much better as you just naked voted in the middle of page 5. Talk me through 106, why did you vote there, was it just sheeping Wartortle?

That said I'm also a little bit weird on Naerys at this point as I find it strange that she brings up post 20 as her reason for SRing Wartortle but only started pushing that read recently. I don't feel like that lines up with Naerys own opening in 39 and 41.

[OutWorldER]

That said I'm also a little bit weird on Naerys at this point as I find it strange that she brings up post 20 as her reason for SRing Wartortle but only started pushing that read recently. I don't feel like that lines up with Naerys own opening in 39 and 41.

Hm, I would like to share a theory of mine: I think Naerys’s read changing on Wartortle is likely due to 216, since it’s the only post before hers to directly mention 20 at all. We know her read on him changed because in 68 she agreed with him enough to change her vote accordingly.

If this is the case, it likely means one of these two possibilities is true:

a) She saw my post and honestly thought it a convincing case in addition to everything else said on Wartortle, and thus switched her tune on him—in this case, her flipping her reads when other people present counter arguments likely means she is struggling to properly sort anyone out yet.

b) She saw that I was townreading her earlier in 160 and is hoping to get a pocket on me by sheeping my reads. I think that this would make the most sense out of the two options if we take 199 as a correct observation.

VOTE: AnimatedWiz

[OutWorldER]

That said I'm also a little bit weird on Naerys at this point as I find it strange that she brings up post 20 as her reason for SRing Wartortle but only started pushing that read recently. I don't feel like that lines up with Naerys own opening in 39 and 41.

Hm, I would like to share a theory of mine: I think Naerys’s read changing on Wartortle is likely due to 216, since it’s the only post before hers to directly mention 20 at all. We know her read on him changed because in 68 she agreed with him enough to change her vote accordingly.

If this is the case, it likely means one of these two possibilities is true:

a) She saw my post and honestly thought it a convincing case in addition to everything else said on Wartortle, and thus switched her tune on him—in this case, her flipping her reads when other people present counter arguments likely means she is struggling to properly sort anyone out yet.

b) She saw that I was townreading her earlier in 160 and is hoping to get a pocket on me by sheeping my reads. I think that this would make the most sense out of the two options if we take 199 as a correct observation.

VOTE: AnimatedWiz

So I’m getting the sense that you don’t agree with my theory—all fine and good.

As just a general principle I do not like when players try to speak for other players and consider anti-town at the best of times because if the player you're speaking for is scum then they just get to hide behind whatever explanation you gave them and if the player is town then you're more likely to piss them off and get into a shitfight over it.

It does not help that your "theory" reads a lot like you actively shading Naerys without actually committing to a read on the slot. It reads like scum poisoning the well rather than a town that's solving.

[OutWorldER]

VOTE: Enchant

VOTE: TheHoldSteady

VOTE: Enchant

That's a weird vote after you make a pretty convincing case on Ani.

I just want to drag this slot out of the burrows a little more.

I feel like Enchant becomes easier to read the more they talk so I'm alright voting them a bit to get them going.

This series of events doesn't really endear me to Enchant's slot right now. Obviously 260 and 261 happen after Enchant OMGUS votes THS but I feel like Enchant would at least be aware of how their slot is perceived at the time THS votes them and simply refusing to provide AI content feels purposefully obstinate at this point rather than just introductory trolling.

[OutWorldER]

I do feel like Wiz is the best wagon right now simply because 245 sent off a lot of alarm bells in my head and I think it'd be easier to solve people who are on a Wiz wagon than on a Hu Tao wagon.

[OutWorldER]

Speaking of wagons can we get a VC? Votes have shifted quite a bit since the last one.

[OutWorldER]

Uh, two thoughts :

1) I really didn’t know OWER was trying to ask Naerys specifically on why she changed her vote and such, which is why I shared my theory on that—wasn’t trying to speak for her .

I also see what you mean about the two-pronged theory not being super helpful—I think in trying to be accurate (and therefore covering all the possibilities I could see), I lost most of the decisiveness of just presenting the possibility I thought most applicable. I appreciate you pointing that fact out for me—I’ll have to try to be more narrow with my theories in the future so they can have more… oomph.

Okay, none of what you're saying here is dissuading my vote on you because you're still dancing around the problem. You presented two theories, one of which implies Naerys Town and the other implies Naerys Scum, and then left it there without saying which you even believe in. It would be different if you stated a concrete read or even a lean on Naerys beforehand but in the absence of that it just looks like you're setting yourself up to see which way the wind blows on Naerys and shading her at the same time. That's what's ringing my scum alarm bells.

[OutWorldER]

"If we take 199 as a correct observation" is incredibly flip-floppy language to use to present a scum-read. Again, it feels like you set yourself up to opportunistically back out of any position that could be unfavorable to you. What is your SR on Naerys built on besides just sheeping Python's read from page 8?

[OutWorldER]

I'm not sure if I'm reading that post right, where did Naerys sheep you and why does it imply scum!Naerys? And tbh Naerys dig for me being inactive was deserved because I genuinely wasn't posting at a good volume beforehand because of work.

If I could ask you, OWER, what are your reads right now?

DE, THS, Wartortle <-- Townreads
Smiley <-- Townlean
Naerys, Python <-- Null
Enchant <-- Scumlean
You, Hu Tao <-- Scumreads

[OutWorldER]

Okay I did misread that post really badly, that's my bad.
Why does Naerys sheeping your read mean she's pocketing you? If she were trying to pocket you don't you think she'd be trying to reach out to you a little more? You and her have barely interacted, I'm not seeing the logic here.

I literally forgot BlackStar was in this game lol. I'd probably put him in null just for that.

[OutWorldER]

I agree we haven’t had much direct interaction, but I think that fact supports my theory instead of weakening it—it’s weird to have me as a top townread and sheep my reads when we’ve not interacted aside from me saying that I want to trust her once.

I think all of that was part of subtle attempt at making me want to further trust her over time without having any easy, quotable evidence like directly saying she trusts me or likes me or something. It’s quite natural to trust people who have similar reads, especially if other people are against those reads, right—that’s the way I think she was trying to pocket me.

Plus, out of everyone in the town, I was probably the best candidate for her to try that on, since I’m new, already reading her favorably, and have reads that other people are against.

Why is it weird to have someone you haven't really interacted with as a TR? What does Naerys get from pocketing YOU specifically, especially considering that you haven't really been in control of the game-state throughout this entire day?

This feels less like a concrete theory you have and more like you scrambling to put yourself back together after being challenged. I think this supports my earlier proposition that you've been trying to position yourself to easily disengage from these kinds of conversations.

[OutWorldER]

Just for the record, this is the post I typed out earlier (before I fell asleep):

VOTE: Wiz

I just don't see anything towny about him. I'm not saying the slot *screams* "scum", but I feel I could towncase literally everyone in this game except Wiz, Enchant and Hu Tao. And Hu Tao has made 2 posts. And Enchant is Enchant.

i think de is scum trying to push a vulnerable slot for bad reasons

I'm curious what you think those bad reasons are because DE's sounded reasonable on the last page to me. I think it's important to remember we're only like 14 pages and a few days into D1 with 6 days or so still remaining in the deadline. I could definitely understand if DE didn't have many definitive scumreads at this point and is simply pushing the person he finds least towny.

I'm also curious on your viewpoint that Wiz is inexperienced town rather than scum because in my experience Wiz is playing mostly how inexperienced/unsure scum play. Half-hearted attempts to try and fake solving the game and then crumbling when a townie challenges him on it.

[OutWorldER]

Heads up I have to go to work soon and won't be back in the thread till tomorrow.

Perhaps it's my fucked sense of time/general impatience but it feels like the wagon here is stalling and I think it's a sign scum are not on the wagon right now. I might be tunneling here but it's just another thing that talks me into pushing Wiz.

[OutWorldER]

VOTE: SmileyDude1

No one finds this one suspicious? By suspicious i mean in "Not Townie Way". I am townie so i know how townie could act!

It's obviously not random vote and i have respectable reasons which i won't share because... because...
... It's secret!

I've been trying to read through some of Enchant's earlier games and I can't find one where they try to obfuscate their reads like this and be purposefully obstinate to other players. This doesn't feel like the town Enchant I'm reading in other games.

[OutWorldER]

Or at least, not obstinate in the way their playing here, is how I guess I should phrase it.

p.edit Yeah but it feels different this game than it does in like, 2294.

[OutWorldER]

VOTE: TheStatusQuo

Enchant says its Smiley, I think it could be Annie, DE thought it was Annie, Black thinks it was DE, I don't think its Wartortle, Status and Annie say its Wartortle, Wartortle says it's not Annie. Who is wrong here and who is leading us off the track?

There's too many scumreads out there for the amount of scum there are.

Okay I'm gonna get off my Wiz tunnel now because these posts carry the HEAVY vibe of being informed while also not tracking with a vote on TSQ at all. HoldSteady proclaims that someone is leading town astray and so votes the person who only just recently got a hold of the game-state? That doesn't ring as consistent to me.

VOTE: TheHoldSteady

re: Wartortle being an alt. I don't really have a stake in that debate because IMO it's not one that's really productive. If Wartortle is an alt that's entirely his own prerogative to reveal or not. I don't think anything alignment-indicative or helpful comes out of trying to have that discussion.

[OutWorldER]

Have to go to work again, will be out of the thread till tomorrow, again.

[OutWorldER]

work yesterday has sapped pretty much all of my motivation to play today (closing on halloween night in fast food, and they scheduled it like it was a normal tuesday so we were critically understaffed). I don't think I'm in prod range but I'll prod dodge anyways and then return tomorrow when I have the day off.

[OutWorldER]

UNVOTE:

Think I trust Black's meta read on THS since I'm usually quite bad at reading impulsive players like that and I'm curious on the Roden slot case.

quote=Naerys post_id=13973015 post_num=551 time=1698954158 user_id=33598]
I dislike the way he says he SR me. My view of him has not really changed. Could be buddy of either Hu Tao or Roden.
[/quote]


You have expressed multiple SR's on various people throughout the pages but your vote hasn't changed since page 3 in 69. What is your read on THS? Why are you still voting him over the other people you've expressed an SR about?

[OutWorldER]

UNVOTE:

Think I trust Black's meta read on THS since I'm usually quite bad at reading impulsive players like that and I'm curious on the Roden slot case.

I dislike the way he says he SR me. My view of him has not really changed. Could be buddy of either Hu Tao or Roden.

You have expressed multiple SR's on various people throughout the pages but your vote hasn't changed since page 3 in 69. What is your read on THS? Why are you still voting him over the other people you've expressed an SR about?

Fixed quote tags.

[OutWorldER]

Look at the scum trying to shade me again. If i missed questions aimed at me, i will answer them after i arrive home.
I am not a pocketing type of person so if you think i was trying to pocket you, you are wrong. I honestly thought THS was being suspicious, so i wanted to add some pressure on the slot.

I think either Hu Tao or Roden who are sitting on Animated wagon, might be scum. From Ani i get townie vibes. I think scum is testing waters for easy lim.

The former post was aimed at Wiz when he was presenting his pocketing theory, which you responded by calling him scum directly, yet not placing a vote. Now you're townreading him. What changed between these two posts? There's no visible progression here.

[OutWorldER]

I don't really like that answer but to be frank you just got out of surgery so I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt here.


I reread Wartortle's ISO and I think I can agree with a vote on Wartortle simply because his confidence in his own play doesn't really match with the flip-floppiness of his reads.In 186 he says he's trying to be a town leader but I can agree with TSQ here that he seems to make no actual effort to lead the town anywhere. His fence-sitting implies a town unconfident in himself which just doesn't mesh with his earlier posts.

VOTE: Wartortle

[OutWorldER]

Spicy take...I think OWER could be scum here

That is spicy, curious to hear why you think.

[OutWorldER]

DE, THS, Wartortle <-- Townreads
Smiley <-- Townlean
Naerys, Python <-- Null
Enchant <-- Scumlean
You, Hu Tao <-- Scumreads

Like DE, THS, and Wartortle being your only townreads here just can't be real. You have voted for all 3 of them and called them scum at different points in the Day. And yeah reads change but you had the confidence to put them in the townREAD pile, not even townlean or null. In DE's case you voted for him before this list and you actually expressed a progression on him why you started to TR him, but you voted for THS and Wartortle after this list and I feel like the reasons weren't anywhere close to strong enough to drop them from a solid townread to scumread. It feels fabricated

I've never called DE's slot scum at any point in this game. I voted for him in the very early pages of the game and then never again, as you yourself observed, and I still think that slot is town. THS I flip-flop on because there are times where he posts what seems to me like genuine town emotion and other times where he makes posts which are simply baffling to me. At the time I made that reads list I thought his reactions to the push against him seemed very townie, and then he wasn't really a major player for a few pages. I also just genuinely have a lot of trouble sorting out players like him which is again why I'm trusting your meta read over my own vibes.

Wartortle I'll give you that my shift is sudden on but I did genuinely have to reread his ISO to make that shift and I did that after you and TSQ were bringing up points against him and wanted to consider them without the biases of what I felt in the early game getting in the way, after which I did find myself agreeing with those points and finding a few reasons of my own to sus him.

re: my 241 I did have a sus on Naerys here but kept my vote on Hu Tao because of 217 striking me as a genuinely awful post, after which Annie responded to me with his theory which I also found to be scummy and that fight happened. Events simply happened in a way where I didn't really have the time to commit to a stance on Naerys there. That's also why I don't think my post and Annie's theory are really comparable since Annie's wording seemed (to me) consciously worded to back himself out of commitment where as I simply couldn't do it due to happenstance.

[OutWorldER]

DE/Roden, Black <--- Townread
Hu Tao, Smiley <--- Townlean
Naerys, THS <-- Null
Enchant, Python <-- Scumlean
AnimatedWiz, Wartortle <-- Scumread

Hu Tao gets a townlean from me because I genuinely don't think scum that's playing the way she is would make the vote she made in 264. Python was fairly passive during the Wiz wagon for reasons they've explained but their recent posting feels weird to me as their posts don't seem to align with their vote on Naerys. Naerys is still a null, I don't like her recent posting but I'm willing to chalk it up to surgery and tiredness. THS I'm just going to commit to not being able to sort this D1. Every other read I've expressed here I think I've expressed elsewhere and if not I can explain them.

[OutWorldER]

DE/Roden, Black <--- Townread
Hu Tao, Smiley <--- Townlean
Naerys, THS <-- Null
Enchant, Python <-- Scumlean
AnimatedWiz, Wartortle <-- Scumread

Hu Tao gets a townlean from me because I genuinely don't think scum that's playing the way she is would make the vote she made in 264.

Thanks! Why/when did your thought process on Hu Tao switch, exactly? You scumread them hard in 291, which was

after

264.

I reconsidered around the time of 419 when I realized I was probably tunneling you and needed to regroup and reconsider some slots. I also just had genuinely not paid attention to 264 at the time of 291 besides registering it as another vote on my tunnel target.

[OutWorldER]

DE/Roden, Black <--- Townread
Hu Tao, Smiley <--- Townlean
Naerys, THS <-- Null
Enchant, Python <-- Scumlean
AnimatedWiz, Wartortle <-- Scumread

Hu Tao gets a townlean from me because I genuinely don't think scum that's playing the way she is would make the vote she made in 264. Python was fairly passive during the Wiz wagon for reasons they've explained but their recent posting feels weird to me as their posts don't seem to align with their vote on Naerys. Naerys is still a null, I don't like her recent posting but I'm willing to chalk it up to surgery and tiredness. THS I'm just going to commit to not being able to sort this D1. Every other read I've expressed here I think I've expressed elsewhere and if not I can explain them.

Your list is missing thestatusquo and me

I could've sworn I put TSQ on there. He's a townread, I don't think scum replaces in to immediately start swinging on (at that time) a player who'd been mostly TR'd by a good chunk of the player list. Also the whole debacle around Wartortle's status as an alt account strikes me as a townie feeling deceived regardless of whether or not that's actually the case.

You I literally just keep forgetting about, you are a blank in my mind, for some reason. Looking through your ISO you ask a lot of questions that just read as softballs to me and I agree with TSQ that you just generally interact with the game in a way I'm not really vibing with.

[OutWorldER]

VOTE: Black
Positioning? WTF?
You are the one who goaded me into voting, which i unfortunately fell for

VOTE: Naerys

I feel like if you actually had this take you would've come into the day swinging at Black instead of spending the first few posts speculating on the no-kill, this vote feels incredibly fake.

[OutWorldER]

Enchant's play here is actually fairly baffling to me because from what I read they have a reputation of low-info posting, quickhammering, and good mechanical play very late into the game and so the quickhammer yesterday is somewhat confusing because the posts afterwards come off as very weirdly trying to justify everything.

The spicy take I have here is I actually think it's coming from a town!Enchant because it feels like Enchant is trying to have people take them more seriously here and that's an emotion I think only comes from Town here. Scum, I think, would just try to coast by on their reputation.

[OutWorldER]

I have to go to work very soon, but it's my last week so after the 11th I'll be able to be more present, since the only thing on my plate afterwards is setting up appointments with college advisors.

Nothing in the last few pages has swayed me off a Naerys vote, I just don't think her read on Black feels real at all, her End of D1 interactions with Enchant in 721 and 731 doesn't feel like a real progression and I think Wartortle was right when he called it out 741

[OutWorldER]

…I do wish I could interact with OWER a bit more—I feel like hearing about how he read the beginning of D2 (especially about Roden, Shea, and you) would help solidify a case against or for him. As it stands, I feel like his D1 was rather scummy once the ball started rolling, but I wouldn’t like to rely on just that for an elimination, y’know?

I wish I could interact with you a bit more too but I woke up late today after a long night and I have to go to work in ~2 hours.

I have a wall-post saved up as a draft but posting it now would cause

discourse

and I would rather be around to actually be involved in that conversation than just watching people talk at me on my phone at work, so frankly I'm just gonna declare my unavailability today and come back tomorrow when I have the day off.

[OutWorldER]

alright, I got back from work fairly early, so I'll drop this now and then probably go to sleep, and respond to whatever is posted in response in the morning when I wake up

Spoiler: WHEN YOU JUMP TO IT AND YOU CAN'T GO THROUGH IT AND YOU CAN'T KNOCK IT DOWN

Black vs Roden, I think, is incredibly obvious TvS, and Roden is the very obvious scum in this situation. It feels this D2 Roden came from a completely alternate universe than D1 Roden. His assertion that Black can't vote scum does not track with his own stated reads, where Black's vote has been, and his own (lack of) defense of the Wartortle wagon. Look at the following quotes here:

Spoiler: Quotes Wall

I don't think Black is capable of voting scum unfortunately

Because I know for a fact you don't

huh?

Roden thinks you and OWER are scum but for some reason he seems to think I can't vote for scum

Thats quite weird. Seems like scum was caught being inconsistent.

Y'all said this about Wartortle and he flipped town. Wake up.

Everyone hop on. I'm driving this wagon off the cliff

Vote this off tomorrow so this slot doesn't make us lose in ELO please

If you were to replace into this game right now, and the first posts you saw were these, you'd think that Roden would've been hard defending Wartortle D1 and heavily against his elim. This isn't true to reality though, because if we look at his ISO D1:

Spoiler: Quotes Wall the 2nd

Sorry, I had trouble connecting to the site the last couple days. I had caught up when it was 15 pages and I'm just going to give my thoughts from there. As of now I'll be playing in the present and just catch up over the night phase.

Smiley: Seemed odd early on but I agreed with a lot of his posts. 210 and 353 are posts I especially liked and thought were townie.

Hu Tao: A lot of nothing for awhile, but I think that's townie for her judging by past experience. Which maybe sounds mean and I don't intend to mean it that way, but I've seen them be very active/proactive as scum and I don't think their attitude matches their scum games so far.

Naerys: I don't agree with most of the reasoning she's given for her reads. 152 is the only post I kinda like, but even then she only null reads Star later on, which is just off to me. I hate the Wartortle and Smiley reads.

Wiz: Idk why this player has been getting scum read, and I don't agree with the previous player in my slot. Wiz has been pretty solvey all game, and he's been one of the most active players. This game has been too inactive for scum to actively decide to put so much attention on themself like he has.

Wartortle: A self proclaimed town leader that I'm fine with town binning for now. Depending on flips, I could see him potentially being a power wolf, but it feels very unlikely.

Enchant: Pass.

Heip: Hard to follow what's going on with him, but he looks like lim bait. Going on the backburner for later.

Hold: I got genuine townie outrage from him and feel some empathy there. I think this is just town.

OWER: 345 rang alarm bells for me, it read like panicked scum who was scrambling around all of the replace-ins. The fact he moved his vote later on solidifies this for me.

Star: Has some LAMIST posts that I didn't like. I have a scum lean here but it's based mostly on vibes.

Knott: Nothing to comment on. I'm hoping Shea town tells.

Python: I like posts 125 and 327, I feel fine setting them aside as town.

VOTE: Naerys

Explain maybe?

Your vote on Naerys feels opportunistic. When reading your catchup post it feels like you mainly scumread her for having bad reads which isn't even really scum indicative. When I compare your read on her to OWER and to an extent BlackStar I feel like your vote should have gone to one of the latter two, but instead it goes on Naerys who just so happens to be one of the leading wagons

Nothing in your catchup gave me enough town vibes to make me reconsider my scumlean on DE

Initially I had an issue with your readslist because I thought it was ordered and that didn't match your reads but looking at it in more detail, it seems like you just threw names into the piles without ordering them. Correct me if I'm wrong here

Sorry, I thought I'd made it clear but I mainly scum read her for the

reasoning

she gave for her reads, not because she had bad reads. I specifically hate the Smiley read because I think he'd done enough to not be a null slot, and I hate the Wartortle scum read because it had zero lead up to it and it didn't match up with their prior interactions.

I would vote OWER, but 1) I haven't fully caught up and I want to know the context of why he changed his tune about his Wiz, 2) I don't have enough buy in and good will to start a brand new wagon two days before deadline, and 3) I still think Naerys is scum, and of my three scum reads she's the most likely slot I can successfully vote out.

As far as opportunism, I don't really understand this point. If I'm scum making up scum reads, voting Wartortle is the optimal play regardless of his alignment. If he's town, he's a much better vote than Naerys since that furthers the gap from my own potential wagon, and if Naerys is also town who is LHF then I'd want to keep her around for the next Day phase. If Wartortle is scum, the best play is for us to commit to scum theatre so one of us gains town cred if the other flips.

Also yeah, my reads list isn't ordered, but only because it isn't final yet.

For what it's worth, if this does flip town I don't think it was a scum-driven wagon. It feels like it built up naturally.

The first two quotes are like...the most Roden ever offered in defense of Wartortle, and the last one is almost outright an endorsement of the wagon. Roden's read on Wartortle is also incredibly hedgy, stating a weak TR on the slot while also proclaiming he could see him being a "power wolf". Roden also does basically nothing to push his "preferred alternative" (Naerys) at all D1. His readslist, initial vote, and some weak justification offered

almost entirely in defense of himself

is the most he ever does to try and push Naerys D1.

These two narratives are completely incongruous with one another and the scum motivation here should be obvious: Scum lets a town-led miselim through while off-wagon, then beats Town over the head D2 with the fact of their mislim to try and gain some towncred off of an "I told you so" narrative. Except in this case Roden didn't even bother to try and pretend he wasn't going to let the Wartortle elim go through in the first place.

The rest of the fight is just theatre on Roden's part:

Spoiler: Quotes Wall the 3rd

Woah calm down, Black

I mean the guy is purposely being snarky and rude just to piss me off and shade me. Mission accomplished. I'm not personally attacking him, I just said I don't give a fuck if he thinks my response is real or not

Yeah it's shit like this why I'm being snarky

I can't have a single conversation with you without you twisting what I say as being scum-motivated

Like every time I tried to talk to you yesterday you could only think up worlds where I'm scum no matter what I was trying to say or whatever alignment Wartortle would flip

And you're still doing that today

I don't think Black is capable of voting scum unfortunately

First of all...rude

Second, you think Naerys, OWER, and Enchant are all town? Because I know for a fact you don't. So why the shade?

Who are you voting

You said I'm not capable of voting scum, which implies you don't think I've voted for scum this game. So yeah this is pure shade and I think you know I'm town

I'm telling you to stop fucking around with bad votes and pointless shade

It's Day 2 and you're voting someone you barely have a case on. Do you seriously have so little information that you can't formulate a legitimate case? Do you find it impossible to work with other people and try to reset after making a bad mis-elim go through?

Idk what your problem is but your attitude is atrocious and your ego is embarrassing

These potshots are utterly divorced from the reality of the game, especially the first one. Go back and read those quotes where Roden talks to Black D1. The responses from both players are civil, and in the context of Black's 692, 696 and 697 the frustration coming from Roden seems incredibly exaggerated and out of proportion. Black has been incredibly transparent with the DE/Roden read, both that she had a scumlean on him and that her read was also not entirely set in stone. If you want to say that Roden's anger here comes from being voted by Black, I'd counter that he should reasonably have forseen this possibility from his interactions with her D1 and the fact that there was no NK from which to do NKA that could've affected Black's reads. The only thing that could've affected Black's reads was Wartortle's flip, but reading Black's ISO I think Black made it clear her read on Wartortle was divorced associatives-wise from her read on DE/Roden.

But the real kicker is, if you read these in a vacuum once again, it looks like Roden is a frustrated townie yelling at a person who he also thinks is a townie. Then:

Spoiler: Quotes Wall the 4th

Honestly I can't even town clear you Black for the way you're acting here because this isn't even the third time that I've pissed off scum so badly that they want me dead

Granted...they all won afterwards because everyone town read their genuine anger and played it up even after my mis-elim

Yeah it's shit like this why I'm being snarky

I can't have a single conversation with you without you twisting what I say as being scum-motivated

Like every time I tried to talk to you yesterday you could only think up worlds where I'm scum no matter what I was trying to say or whatever alignment Wartortle would flip

And you're still doing that today

That's cap. I was clearly willing to re-evaluate in 697 and I even admitted I was wrong about one of my points in that post. But whatever dude

Yet you voted me without trying to engage with me first...interesting...

VOTE: Black

SUDDENLY WE FLIP GEARS COMPLETELY.

On the weakest, most incredibly reachy progression possible, which somehow even overrides his stated SR and vote on me beforehand. Go through Roden's ISO yourself and find where he

ever

states even a nominal suspicious of Black's slot, and you won't find until the literal 2 last posts he made in this argument. I think Roden realized that people were voting Black on (what I think is a) weak case (the idea that Black "goaded" Naerys into voting so Enchant would hammer) and realized he could twist it into trying to start something on Black (remember that at this point in the argument Enchant and BlackStar were still voting Black). Or just to throw it out there to try and improve his image and make it look like a TvT. The point is that I don't think this vote here comes from town.

I don't think any of Roden's part in this conversation comes from Town.

I think the entirety of Roden's posts here are about making himself look good and not about actual scumhunting.

I don't know how to end this wall.

VOTE: Roden

[OutWorldER]

alright, I got back from work fairly early, so I'll drop this now and then probably go to sleep, and respond to whatever is posted in response in the morning when I wake up

Spoiler: WHEN YOU JUMP TO IT AND YOU CAN'T GO THROUGH IT AND YOU CAN'T KNOCK IT DOWN

Black vs Roden, I think, is incredibly obvious TvS, and Roden is the very obvious scum in this situation. It feels this D2 Roden came from a completely alternate universe than D1 Roden. His assertion that Black can't vote scum does not track with his own stated reads, where Black's vote has been, and his own (lack of) defense of the Wartortle wagon. Look at the following quotes here:

Spoiler: Quotes Wall

I don't think Black is capable of voting scum unfortunately

Because I know for a fact you don't

huh?

Roden thinks you and OWER are scum but for some reason he seems to think I can't vote for scum

Thats quite weird. Seems like scum was caught being inconsistent.

Y'all said this about Wartortle and he flipped town. Wake up.

Everyone hop on. I'm driving this wagon off the cliff

Vote this off tomorrow so this slot doesn't make us lose in ELO please

If you were to replace into this game right now, and the first posts you saw were these, you'd think that Roden would've been hard defending Wartortle D1 and heavily against his elim. This isn't true to reality though, because if we look at his ISO D1:

Spoiler: Quotes Wall the 2nd

Sorry, I had trouble connecting to the site the last couple days. I had caught up when it was 15 pages and I'm just going to give my thoughts from there. As of now I'll be playing in the present and just catch up over the night phase.

Smiley: Seemed odd early on but I agreed with a lot of his posts. 210 and 353 are posts I especially liked and thought were townie.

Hu Tao: A lot of nothing for awhile, but I think that's townie for her judging by past experience. Which maybe sounds mean and I don't intend to mean it that way, but I've seen them be very active/proactive as scum and I don't think their attitude matches their scum games so far.

Naerys: I don't agree with most of the reasoning she's given for her reads. 152 is the only post I kinda like, but even then she only null reads Star later on, which is just off to me. I hate the Wartortle and Smiley reads.

Wiz: Idk why this player has been getting scum read, and I don't agree with the previous player in my slot. Wiz has been pretty solvey all game, and he's been one of the most active players. This game has been too inactive for scum to actively decide to put so much attention on themself like he has.

Wartortle: A self proclaimed town leader that I'm fine with town binning for now. Depending on flips, I could see him potentially being a power wolf, but it feels very unlikely.

Enchant: Pass.

Heip: Hard to follow what's going on with him, but he looks like lim bait. Going on the backburner for later.

Hold: I got genuine townie outrage from him and feel some empathy there. I think this is just town.

OWER: 345 rang alarm bells for me, it read like panicked scum who was scrambling around all of the replace-ins. The fact he moved his vote later on solidifies this for me.

Star: Has some LAMIST posts that I didn't like. I have a scum lean here but it's based mostly on vibes.

Knott: Nothing to comment on. I'm hoping Shea town tells.

Python: I like posts 125 and 327, I feel fine setting them aside as town.

VOTE: Naerys

Explain maybe?

Your vote on Naerys feels opportunistic. When reading your catchup post it feels like you mainly scumread her for having bad reads which isn't even really scum indicative. When I compare your read on her to OWER and to an extent BlackStar I feel like your vote should have gone to one of the latter two, but instead it goes on Naerys who just so happens to be one of the leading wagons

Nothing in your catchup gave me enough town vibes to make me reconsider my scumlean on DE

Initially I had an issue with your readslist because I thought it was ordered and that didn't match your reads but looking at it in more detail, it seems like you just threw names into the piles without ordering them. Correct me if I'm wrong here

Sorry, I thought I'd made it clear but I mainly scum read her for the

reasoning

she gave for her reads, not because she had bad reads. I specifically hate the Smiley read because I think he'd done enough to not be a null slot, and I hate the Wartortle scum read because it had zero lead up to it and it didn't match up with their prior interactions.

I would vote OWER, but 1) I haven't fully caught up and I want to know the context of why he changed his tune about his Wiz, 2) I don't have enough buy in and good will to start a brand new wagon two days before deadline, and 3) I still think Naerys is scum, and of my three scum reads she's the most likely slot I can successfully vote out.

As far as opportunism, I don't really understand this point. If I'm scum making up scum reads, voting Wartortle is the optimal play regardless of his alignment. If he's town, he's a much better vote than Naerys since that furthers the gap from my own potential wagon, and if Naerys is also town who is LHF then I'd want to keep her around for the next Day phase. If Wartortle is scum, the best play is for us to commit to scum theatre so one of us gains town cred if the other flips.

Also yeah, my reads list isn't ordered, but only because it isn't final yet.

For what it's worth, if this does flip town I don't think it was a scum-driven wagon. It feels like it built up naturally.

The first two quotes are like...the most Roden ever offered in defense of Wartortle, and the last one is almost outright an endorsement of the wagon. Roden's read on Wartortle is also incredibly hedgy, stating a weak TR on the slot while also proclaiming he could see him being a "power wolf". Roden also does basically nothing to push his "preferred alternative" (Naerys) at all D1. His readslist, initial vote, and some weak justification offered

almost entirely in defense of himself

is the most he ever does to try and push Naerys D1.

These two narratives are completely incongruous with one another and the scum motivation here should be obvious: Scum lets a town-led miselim through while off-wagon, then beats Town over the head D2 with the fact of their mislim to try and gain some towncred off of an "I told you so" narrative. Except in this case Roden didn't even bother to try and pretend he wasn't going to let the Wartortle elim go through in the first place.

The rest of the fight is just theatre on Roden's part:

Spoiler: Quotes Wall the 3rd

Woah calm down, Black

I mean the guy is purposely being snarky and rude just to piss me off and shade me. Mission accomplished. I'm not personally attacking him, I just said I don't give a fuck if he thinks my response is real or not

Yeah it's shit like this why I'm being snarky

I can't have a single conversation with you without you twisting what I say as being scum-motivated

Like every time I tried to talk to you yesterday you could only think up worlds where I'm scum no matter what I was trying to say or whatever alignment Wartortle would flip

And you're still doing that today

I don't think Black is capable of voting scum unfortunately

First of all...rude

Second, you think Naerys, OWER, and Enchant are all town? Because I know for a fact you don't. So why the shade?

Who are you voting

You said I'm not capable of voting scum, which implies you don't think I've voted for scum this game. So yeah this is pure shade and I think you know I'm town

I'm telling you to stop fucking around with bad votes and pointless shade

It's Day 2 and you're voting someone you barely have a case on. Do you seriously have so little information that you can't formulate a legitimate case? Do you find it impossible to work with other people and try to reset after making a bad mis-elim go through?

Idk what your problem is but your attitude is atrocious and your ego is embarrassing

These potshots are utterly divorced from the reality of the game, especially the first one. Go back and read those quotes where Roden talks to Black D1. The responses from both players are civil, and in the context of Black's 692, 696 and 697 the frustration coming from Roden seems incredibly exaggerated and out of proportion. Black has been incredibly transparent with the DE/Roden read, both that she had a scumlean on him and that her read was also not entirely set in stone. If you want to say that Roden's anger here comes from being voted by Black, I'd counter that he should reasonably have forseen this possibility from his interactions with her D1 and the fact that there was no NK from which to do NKA that could've affected Black's reads. The only thing that could've affected Black's reads was Wartortle's flip, but reading Black's ISO I think Black made it clear her read on Wartortle was divorced associatives-wise from her read on DE/Roden.

But the real kicker is, if you read these in a vacuum once again, it looks like Roden is a frustrated townie yelling at a person who he also thinks is a townie. Then:

Spoiler: Quotes Wall the 4th

Honestly I can't even town clear you Black for the way you're acting here because this isn't even the third time that I've pissed off scum so badly that they want me dead

Granted...they all won afterwards because everyone town read their genuine anger and played it up even after my mis-elim

Yeah it's shit like this why I'm being snarky

I can't have a single conversation with you without you twisting what I say as being scum-motivated

Like every time I tried to talk to you yesterday you could only think up worlds where I'm scum no matter what I was trying to say or whatever alignment Wartortle would flip

And you're still doing that today

That's cap. I was clearly willing to re-evaluate in 697 and I even admitted I was wrong about one of my points in that post. But whatever dude

Yet you voted me without trying to engage with me first...interesting...

VOTE: Black

SUDDENLY WE FLIP GEARS COMPLETELY.

On the weakest, most incredibly reachy progression possible, which somehow even overrides his stated SR and vote on me beforehand. Go through Roden's ISO yourself and find where he

ever

states even a nominal suspicious of Black's slot, and you won't find until the literal 2 last posts he made in this argument. I think Roden realized that people were voting Black on (what I think is a) weak case (the idea that Black "goaded" Naerys into voting so Enchant would hammer) and realized he could twist it into trying to start something on Black (remember that at this point in the argument Enchant and BlackStar were still voting Black). Or just to throw it out there to try and improve his image and make it look like a TvT. The point is that I don't think this vote here comes from town.

I don't think any of Roden's part in this conversation comes from Town.

I think the entirety of Roden's posts here are about making himself look good and not about actual scumhunting.

I don't know how to end this wall.

VOTE: Roden

I think your argument against him doesn’t really work for two reasons, but I want to see Roden’s response before I share the issues I see with it.

Roden's response was to self-vote, which I don't see how you take as anything but a scum claim (his top scumread [myself] comes down to drop mucho texto on top of him, and instead of fighting it he just gives up?), so I'm curious to hear this counter-argument you have.

Hi I just woke up at 1 PM in the afternoon. I'm mostly caught up.

[OutWorldER]

Python, I fear y’all are going to have a lot of policy votes if you keep adding more conditions on.

Why do you care?

1. Can’t do VCA on someone who policy votes a lot of different things.

2. It dilutes the limiting power of a policy vote—people won’t respect the vote if they know someone else will catch it soon after.

3. It’s kind of funny.

I literally have 0 clue who our vote is on rn without checking, I'd be surprised if anyone could VCA us with any sort of reliability

How do you not know who your vote is on?

Python is multiple people (actually I've been meaning to ask, although I'm unsure if this is an insensitive question: Python, are you a system?) so I could see this being the case tbh

[OutWorldER]

I actually kinda like that solve from Wartortle

I'm not a fan of a solve that has Hu Tao in it tbh I think my legacy read from D1 there still fits, nothing that Hu Tao has posted since has swayed me otherwise.

[OutWorldER]

Members of the town do self vote all the time but usually it's when they're being voted by people who they also think are townies.

Roden has stated an SR on me ever since he replaced into this game. I start pushing him and that's his queue to give up? That makes no sense from a town perspective.

[OutWorldER]

It's not a flawed premise because Roden has zero reason to come into the day with 948 unless he's trying to pull some "I told you so" kind of nonsense. All of the first three posts I quoted in that wall are trying to knock Black down for pushing a mislim. The implication here is obvious.

But Black took the conversation in a completely different direction and started talking about all the other people she’s voted for and making the claim that Roden must be informed that they were all town. Roden asked her who she was voting for right now (him) and then Naerys jumped in and made a snarky post along the lines of “hello? Are you even paying attention to the game?”. She seemed to completely miss the point he was making and that just served to make him more frustrated. I’d get angry too after that.

Okay, but Roden's last few posts in that argument do not, at all, follow with this narrative you're putting out. Look at 973, 974, 975. Roden is outright calling Black scum here, a progression that does not make any sense at all. You're trying to say that Roden's trying to vote off a person he thinks is town out of anger (if I'm understanding you're arguement correctly, and I may be stupid so it's possible I'm not), but that does not at all follow with those posts.

[OutWorldER]

It's not a flawed premise because Roden has zero reason to come into the day with 948 unless he's trying to pull some "I told you so" kind of nonsense. All of the first three posts I quoted in that wall are trying to knock Black down for pushing a mislim. The implication here is obvious.

But Black took the conversation in a completely different direction and started talking about all the other people she’s voted for and making the claim that Roden must be informed that they were all town. Roden asked her who she was voting for right now (him) and then Naerys jumped in and made a snarky post along the lines of “hello? Are you even paying attention to the game?”. She seemed to completely miss the point he was making and that just served to make him more frustrated. I’d get angry too after that.

Okay, but Roden's last few posts in that argument do not, at all, follow with this narrative you're putting out. Look at 973, 974, 975. Roden is outright calling Black scum here, a progression that does not make any sense at all. You're trying to say that Roden's trying to vote off a person he thinks is town out of anger (if I'm understanding you're arguement correctly, and I may be stupid so it's possible I'm not), but that does not at all follow with those posts.

If he didn’t say that he defended Wartortle hard, it seems weird to me to say that he might have planned t do it in the future. He’s had all this time to say that and still hasn’t, so it seems like you’re pushing a hypothetical instead of basing your read on his actual actions.


I don’t know if he think Black is town or not. My point was that multiple people either unintentionally or intentionally seemed like o misunderstand what he was saying and it’s understandable that someone would be upset about that

"not basing a read on his actual actions" My guy, read the posts again. Even if you don't want to say that Roden is trying to ride the fact that he wasn't on Wartortle's wagon, you can at least agree with me that Roden's initial posts in that argument are based entirely around discrediting Black, right?

Your second point just has nothing to do at all with Roden's progression on Black. By the time Roden is voting Black we're pretty well past the "misunderstanding" points of the arguement.

[OutWorldER]

@Black I don't see why it isn't possible that my town play simply reminds you of your own scum play. I often (read 2 years ago) was considered limbait in other games I've played as town (see Student Council Mafia or Mini Normal 2185), so the idea that my town play reminds a player of their scum!self isn't wild to me.

[OutWorldER]

actually maybe don't read 2185 I got mad af that game

[OutWorldER]

I could definitely be wrong here. I don't think I am though

I'll try to look through OWER's games when I get to my PC

@OWER: Have you rolled scum on here before?

Once, in Mini Normal 2179. However, I'm unsure in how useful it would be for determining my alignment in this game because I had the good fortune that game to roll a scumteam with both Flavor Leaf and Alchemist and I essentially got hard carried that game. My memories of that game are mostly me lurking out while FL blew smoke everywhere.

Links:
Game Itself: viewtopic.php?t=85010
The Maf PT for that Game: viewtopic.php?t=85015

[OutWorldER]

Roden, Naerys, BlackStar is my limpool for the day

I actually kinda like that solve from Wartortle

I'm not a fan of a solve that has Hu Tao in it tbh I think my legacy read from D1 there still fits, nothing that Hu Tao has posted since has swayed me otherwise.

I'm weary of people who defend me when I've literally done nothing.

I explained beforehand why I townleaned you and also I think scum in your position here would've hopped on Roden or Black, so frankly I just think you're a lurky townie and not scum.

[OutWorldER]

I'm a VT.

Still gathering my thoughts about everything. Fully believe Smiley's claim, am a bit sus about THS's JOAT claim, though I've seen power roles self-vote themselves and even self-hammer before so honestly I don't think it's alignment indicative. I do think his stated night actions are a little too perfect though tbh.

p.edit Black that's not a real claim Enchant is trolling

[OutWorldER]

No it was HoldSteady who got Jailed, which is why Shea/BlackStar are both alive if HS's claim is true

[OutWorldER]

One of the protectives has to be fake there's no way the NRG passes on Town having 4 different ways (JOAT Doc, JK, BG, BP) to cuck the scumteam's kill even if their gated.

[OutWorldER]

It was advertised as Simple but Smiley claimed Lazy JK (Lazy is not a simple modifier, it's Regular+) and IIRC the game was formally in signups before the compartment system debuted. Smiley has no reason to lie about being Lazy (which is why I wholeheartedly believe his claim) so the game being tagged as simple honestly means jack shit.

[OutWorldER]

I don't know if the mod would be able to actually answer that question since it could be considered the mod confirming a player's role

[OutWorldER]

I mean, all those roles are in the Simple compartment, even if this game was not made with that system in mind, they're in that compartment for a reason. And the resolution isn't complicated, Jailkeep is considered it's own action type under NAR and resolves before Protection or Kill so it's not very complex for the mod to keep track of and the players only have to look at the NAR page for 2 seconds.

Again, I'm inclined to believe the JOAT claim is actually the fake one here because having a Vig of any kind in a JK/BG/BP setup seems ludicrously swingy in Town's favor, not to mention the other abilities that he claimed, and his stated night actions are incredibly convenient for someone in THS's position.

[OutWorldER]

VOTE: BlackStar

I'm still somewhat sus of the JOAT claim but honestly with Black's results it can only be one of three people I think (If I'm interpreting claims correctly) and I think Python's reasoning makes sense here.

I… hm… I do find it quite convenient that the Bodyguard did target two people who were already protected from danger by the Jailkeeper (who claimed before he did).

However, I feel like if BlackStar would tell a lie, it would be something a bit less miraculous as to be less suspicious, right? It’s weird, but I feel it’s honest for that’s reason.

BlackStar had to claim with a Watcher who had not claimed results yet and so making a miracle alibi is his only choice there if he's scum, otherwise he risks getting immediately caught out on a lie if Black had watched his target (and she did).

[OutWorldER]

Oh, I was thinking because Ninja isn't Simple and couldn't be in the set up, then we can pretty much guarantee the killer had to be Blackstar

Idk now though

I mean, setup spec wise there is no possible way that a Ninja could be here I think unless it was heavily gated. That would invalidate all 3 of our limited investigative shots that were already at risk of being invalidated by the Jailkeeper in the first place.

If THS's claim is real then scum at least have a Roleblocker (since THS said he couldn't get a result on me) and I don't think scum would have Ninja + RB.

[OutWorldER]

BlackStar's BG is not confirm-able at this point. We don't have any more roles that get results back (meaning we cannot know who was roleblocked in nights beyond this day) unless Enchant is a PR, and if he's scum he hides behind that on future days and if Town his BG is near-useless at this stage. There's no real benefit to keeping him alive here and of the two possible options (assuming Smiley's JK is real) he's the far more likely scum since his night 2 action makes no sense.

[OutWorldER]

Oh wow OWER is still here. And he jumps in to stop a python wagon? Hmm

I can see why Roden got frustrated with you.

I've been busy setting up for college stuff which is why I've been inactive for a bit.

[OutWorldER]

Python deserved to go for constant mentions of notes PT and

anime avatar

Oh wow OWER is still here. And he jumps in to stop a python wagon? Hmm

I can see why Roden got frustrated with you.

I've been busy setting up for college stuff which is why I've been inactive for a bit.

Do you have a readslist?

Not at the moment, I've mostly let them fall to the wayside to focus on the mech side of things at this time. I don't really think much changed from D2 though.

[OutWorldER]

I think part of the issue is that the majority of us have anime-style avatars—I even have Wooloo in mine. Only Smiley and OWER are safe, I think—Enchant debatably.

Mine is from Blazblue so it absolutely counts an as anime avatar.

This is not anime avatar

Our avatar is actually from a gatcha game

Even worse, actually.

[OutWorldER]

Not at the moment, I've mostly let them fall to the wayside to focus on the mech side of things at this time. I don't really think much changed from D2 though.

I don't understand this. Shouldn't the mech stuff and claims affect your reads?

Also why isn't python in your preferred lims list if you scumread him D2 and you're of the belief that one of the protective roles is lying?

I may have phrased that wrong. Basically what I'm trying to say is the massclaim here has made me push up/vote where I normally wouldn't. All claims disregarded, I'd be pushing Roden here again, because I still think his self-vote yesterday was basically a scum-claim in that specific context.

With the claims here, I think BlackStar is the most likely false claim, and mechanically I think his lim is both the best and most likely to flip up scum in this context, so that's why I'm pushing there.

Also, I never stated an SR on Python D2, I was focused on Roden that day and inactive during most of the Hu Tao wagon, so I mostly just didn't pay attention to what they were doing.

[OutWorldER]

Python deserved to go for constant mentions of notes PT and anime avatar

It's actually pretty funny that all the people getting scumread this game have anime pfp's

This is a video game avatar, fam

are you trying to claim Persona isn't anime?

[OutWorldER]

Also, I never stated an SR on Python D2, I was focused on Roden that day and inactive during most of the Hu Tao wagon, so I mostly just didn't pay attention to what they were doing.

Your last stated read on Python was a scumlean. What is your current read on them?

I remember thinking they looked fairly townie interacting with and pushing Hu Tao's wagon on D2, but I'd have to go back and actually read in-depth because again, I was mostly inactive that part of the day dealing with college preparations and holdover stuff from leaving my job.

[OutWorldER]

bros are gif-spamming now

Spoiler: image

[OutWorldER]

That readslist is incredibly strange and the progression of Voting BlackStar --> Thinking it's better to vote inside the VT's --> Python SR is not one that feels natural or real to me.

[OutWorldER]

Scalding hot take: BlackStar and Python are both town and we're being played by Annie and Co.

What's your take on the night actions then? The only way this makes sense is if you think Smiley's JK claim is fake or scum didn't shoot, and I have trouble believing either of those. Unless there's some secret 3rd option I'm missing here.

[OutWorldER]

Python/Roden and then one of THS/Naerys/Wiz. THS coming into today voting Wiz is awful but I think 1811 and 1995 (note Naerys wasn't voting Python or BlackStar at that point in the day) point towards Naerys partner just as likely. Wiz, however, is the only one who I think has a reason to kill Black after she ran out of watcher shots.

Either way:

VOTE: usesPython

[OutWorldER]

Town power roles imploding on themselves is a thing I've seen often enough that THS's self-vote is honestly NAI for me, I just think THS is scummy for other reasons. There's no reason not to be voting Python here unless you think there's a Ninja, or if you think Smiley's JK is fake, and THS has not presented either option.

[OutWorldER]

Like, I modded a game where an ungated Town Nea self-hammered themselves, THS self-voting himself to E-1 doesn't mean a whole lot to me.

[OutWorldER]

I would like to push forward the idea of eliminating OWER—I feel like he has been piggybacking a lot of wagons, including the D1 wagon on me, the Wartortle wagon, and the BlackStar wagon.

VOTE: OutWorldER.

Like, if I was scum, why would I townflip the slot I’ve been trying to eliminate the entire game?

Replace "entire game" with "since D2"

I think I'm on board with Smiley saying THS is town here and Enchant coming into today trying to push his lim for extremely weak reasons feels extremely sus.

VOTE: Enchant

[OutWorldER]

I can't even begin to wrap my head around that kill.

I used my doc save on you last night.

My PoE is telling me that Enchant and Annie are the other two scum.

Why on earth would you claim the doc shot if it didn't save anybody?

[OutWorldER]

Oh wait, Smiley asked for it.

I still think that's bad but uh, okay.

[OutWorldER]

this is a sincerely frustrating situation since like

I think if Wiz gets jailed two nights in a row and there's still kills he's probably just town, unless Maf had the hard read he gets blocked both nights

but also like, bro, you're 4 for 4 on being outright wrong. The slot you've been tunneling all game just flipped town, and instead of taking a step back to re-evaluate you instead just commit to your secondary tunnel on me? like

Town

: SmileyDude1, usesPython, TheHoldSteady

Townlean

:

Black

,

BlackStar

, Naerys

Null

: Enchant

Scumlean

:

Thestatusquo

, OutWorldER

Scum

:

Hu Tao

, Roden

these reads aged poorly

this is an incalculably fucking correct post and you're just gonna keep truckin like nothing's changed?

[OutWorldER]

"been on the sidelines the entire game" i was very much the frontman on your wagon D1 and dropped a text wall on Roden D2, cherry-picking isn't cool bro. And you haven't exactly been a shining beacon when it comes to trying to course correct Town.

Every argument you've ever made against me here also applies to yourself, so can you please maybe reconsider for just a singular goddamn moment before you try to drive another mislim on town?

Anyway, I don’t think voting for UsesPython after BlackStar townflipped

Is this supposed to be a point in your favor that you're actively reconsidering your reads??? If you hadn't voted for the obviously guilty party in a 1f1 situation I would've found a way to put my hand through the screen and thrash you from across the internet.

[OutWorldER]

Every time I "went to the sidelines" is because anytime I tried to say anything I would've had to deal with Black, a woman who ended up scumreading every person she ever interacted with, and I never had the energy to try and deal with that. You'll notice my posting sharply declines after Black replaces in and I had my first interaction with her. For as much as I thought Roden would flip up scum this game he was unfathomably correct that she's incredibly frustrating to talk to.

[OutWorldER]

Like, if I was scum, why would I townflip the slot I’ve been trying to eliminate the entire game?

This is both of us dude, neither of us kills Roden here, so figure it out already.

[OutWorldER]

VOTE: TheHoldSteady

i think if Enchant's going full mechsolving mode he's probably just town so fuck it. My reads have been bad all game, I'll just sheep this.

[OutWorldER]

Hmm. If THS flips green then Enchant should go. But idk, this seems to be rather bold move for scum.

Why Enchant? I feel like his logic here is sound regardless of THS's alignment.

[OutWorldER]

Mafia attacked you N1 and learned you didn't die.

And that you probably not cause of it because you naturally could't defend self as any role but bulletproof and roleblocking bulletproof is cring. Yet they roleblock you again,

while attacking black

(knowing other protective/blocker still here).


Literally ???

bro just casually scumslips in twilight

[OutWorldER]

????

The only thing we know about what happened on N2 is that Python got jailed, and Black, BlackStar, and Smiley all visited them. We can deduce that Python was making

a

kill because of Smiley's JK, but there's no way for you to know Python's target without being in the scum PT.

[OutWorldER]

This is… so horribly confusing. The only person here I feel I can actually trust at this point is Smiley, but even then the nagging feeling about a Jailkeeper being kept alive makes me unwilling to say it for sure.

Is there some world where Smiley is lying? Have we just all assumed he’s telling the truth when there’s a possibility of him just lying? I mean, he could have lied about jailing Python so we would eventually eliminate them and therefore it would “confirm” him, right?

Or is this just another WIFOM play? These kills are so weird—I don’t understand them mechanically.

Bro you're just trying to blow smoke at this point, there's zero way this take is genuine. Town does not come into Elo trying to discredit the practically confirmed JK at this point, after limming a Maf off the back of his jailkeep. A toddler could figure out that Smiley being scum here is ludicrous.

[OutWorldER]

I don't know why I tried to convince myself you were town yesterday and let you quickhammer THS, I should've just been sheeping Black. There's no way you're not scum here.

[OutWorldER]

Plus, if do all trust Smiley’s not lying, then the fact that I was jailed twice in a row and it never stopped a nightkill is decent mechanical evidence in my favor—not confirming, but it’s more than most of the rest of you can say.

Except it's not evidence, not anymore. That stopped being evidence the moment THS flipped, because it confirmed that there is some kind of blocking role. If there's a Roleblocker/Rolestopper they can just block Smiley/rolestop the killer every night and Smiley's JK is useless.

Is this why you left Smiley alive? So you could say "well he's blocked me for two nights in a row and there wasn't any kills" while also roleblocking him to get a fake clear?

[OutWorldER]

yeah just shows up as a blank white page for me

[OutWorldER]

Oh shit I can't even access the mod's ISO.

[OutWorldER]

I feel like today's vote mostly just has to be between the guy who potentially scumslipped in twilight (because Smiley's right, scum nightkills here haven't been so straightforward that saying Python attacked Black isn't something you can say for sure without being in the scum PT) or the guy who quickhammered the JOAT, and I lean far more towards Wiz for right now, because that hammer was completely out of line with how they played this on D3, where he was consistently saying for things to not end quickly, then just up and hammers THS with like, 5 days or so left in the deadline? With a really weak justification?

I think Enchant has the potential to be town that's maybe oversimplifying the game. I don't see a world where Wiz is anything but Maf here.

[OutWorldER]

Smiley probably town so if i vote someone else i have 1/3 chance to vote townie randomly. If that happens, we lose.

If i vote mafia, then people shitpush me and we lose.
-SNIP-


So yeah i am randomvoting in (expired on 2023-11-29 12:48:36)

I literally said I think you could be town. You basically led the THS wagon yesterday, convincing even Naerys, who said she found THS townie beforehand. Where the hell is this pessimism that people don't listen to you/are going to instalim you coming from all of a sudden? Don't fucking randvote, holy shit.

[OutWorldER]

Smiley doesn't.

Mafia only need to fool one player to win.

If you would believe i am town, from your pow everyone else but me and Smiley are mafia and you don't act an that.

Quoting my posts without gifs are scumclaim.

I am bored as fuck.

I don't care.

/rip

I'm not acting on that because it's ELO with 5+ days left, and I'm not 100% confident in my reads. You're right, if I'm to conclude your Town than it has to mean that the scumteam is Wiz/TSQ. But I could be wrong in my read about Wiz. I could be wrong about my read about you, or TSQ. And if I vote wrong, we lose. So I'd rather, you know, not, and take it slowly.

And by the by, it's really shitty to just give up at the finish line regardless of your alignment.

[OutWorldER]

It sure looks like you are this game.

[OutWorldER]

Rereading the game and at this point, I think I'm just gonna send it. I retract my claim that Enchant could be town here.

VOTE: Enchant

The thing I noticed on a reread is that Enchant did not vote, at all, during D3 in the BlackStar vs Python 1f1. He abstained entirely, and the only indication he was even going to was saying that Smiley would regret stealing from him when he hammered BlackStar.


Instead, Enchant spent a good chunk of that day trying to discredit Black, the Watcher, discrediting the mass-claim and being purposefully obfuscatory about his role. What little he posts outside of that is useless fluff, except for 1676 which contains absolutely zero analysis of use. When Python is confirmed red by BlackStar's flip, he immediately tries to chain THS, the JOAT, to them 2055, setting up for D5 where he pushes THS and gets him elimmed.

I think there's more than enough here to associate Enchant with Python. The other partner has to be within Wiz/TSQ, because Smiley is basically conftown at this point, but on a reread I feel most confident about eliminating Enchant here.

[OutWorldER]

I would like to vote OWER, but I want Shea to have a chance to share his thoughts first.

I think I prefer ower over enchant but I am not sure.

One of you has to be town so I am begging either of you to tell me a single townie thing that Enchant has done all game. He tried to discredit our watcher and push her for shitty reasons both D2 and D3, he wanted to hammer our BG, he has positive associations with Python, he was basically the main mechanic behind our JOAT lim.

Like yeah, my reads have been bad, and I've lost a lot of WIM at points, but I've given reasons as to why that is. What has Enchant done this entire game but blow smoke left and right?

[OutWorldER]

Black basically KNEW i would hammer, goated you in putting on E-1, then "oh no troll how unfunny".

I think it's you afraid about posting results in fear that they will be disputed.

You don't have watcher result.

You still don't have watcher result.

In what world are these town posts? With everything we know after they were made, how do you see these as town posts? Enchant literally never gave a reason as to why he though Black's watcher was fake, and he was pushing her for dogwater reasons start of D2, and then promptly started lurking again once Naerys picked up the tunnel.

the mech solving stuff he was doing with the various different worlds based on the claim felt much closer to what i'd expect from town enchant than scum enchant. the refusal to participate in the mass claim also felt like something enchant was much more likely to do if enchant is town based on my experience with him.

Like I'm not gunna try to convince you because you're either scum or in a world where enchant is confirmed scum to you, but the claim that he hasn't done "a single town thing" is like...not factually accurate to the point of being kind of laughable?

And where did all of that mech solve leave us? His D3 mech was basically just "here's a punch of different possibilities" without any actual analysis. His D5 mech got the town JOAT limmed. None of it ended up benefitting the town.

[OutWorldER]

i made this image specifically for if we won.

Spoiler: Image

GG's all. Fun game, fun setup. No redactions on my end.

[OutWorldER]

I found it weird that the Watcher was Macho but then I realized that the JoAT was probably supposed to be the star of the show, unfortunate that all of shit got blocked.

[OutWorldER]

Yeah so Night 1

OutWorldER tries to kill TheHoldSteady, but SmileyDude1 jails TheHoldSteady

Meanwhile TheHoldSteady tries to vig Thestatusquo, but gets blocked due to SmileyDude1 jailing him.

But, even if SmileyDude didn't jail TheHoldSteady, Thestatusquo would've still been protected by BlackStar protecting him

just a very complex chain of events

Funny as hell that the worst possible scenarios happened for both scum and town in a single night. Well, I guess the JoAT getting killed would've been worse but you get what I mean.

[OutWorldER]

I keep rolling scum and I keep winning. I think this is like 5 scum wins for me this year? But this game I absolutely didnt deserve it, I played like utter crap. Shout out to my team mates for the hard carry this game, I'm not sure what I did exactly to earn town reads, my best contribution was to get into a shit fight with black to muddy the waters and keep ower alive.

I mean, after Roden replaced DE (causing my D1 Wiz wagon to crumble into dust because I was counting on DE committing to a hard tunnel on Wiz) I mostly just lurked I feel like, with a few random spots of pouncing out. I think Python did most of the work this game tbh