Mini Normal 2326 | Everything has exploded !

[Dannflor]

ew americans

i, for one, could never

VOTE: vivax

[Dannflor]

Having joined this game specifically to play with outoforder I would rather not eliminate them for the lolz.

[Dannflor]

I don`t see where the assumption I was scared came from if not from within.

you don't?

[Dannflor]

I don`t see where the assumption I was scared came from if not from within.

you don't?

Nope. Give me a good reason to be.

im scary

[Dannflor]

[Dannflor]

i agree darthpunk is towny

[Dannflor]

hey can people start placing votes down, random or not

[Dannflor]

it would make it much easier to start getting firm reasons

[Dannflor]

This is IML. As soon as a majority is reached, the lunch is served. Drumming for quick votes is more mafia indicative than town indicative. We don‘t have enough information.

Consider this a FoS on Dannflor.

now, why isn't this a vote instead of an FoS

[Dannflor]

VOTE: outoforder

[Dannflor]

what do you see that is terrible?

[Dannflor]

right, elaborate?

[Dannflor]

to be specific i would like you to to spell out why you think that vote is terrible

[Dannflor]

He had a good opener and correctly pointed out Luca’s good post.

He has done nothing to make himself a good lynch candidate.

Additionally at the start you said you didn’t want to lynch him due to wanting to specifically play with him then You voted for him after being called out for creating an association.

a. why is Luca's post towny?

b. i didn't say i wanted to eliminate him. my vote could have been for any number of reasons.

c. 21 was a joke playing off of your 14, which i thought was pretty funny since no one actually believes vivax would get eliminated based off two page 1 random votes. nonetheless, my vote was not because they "called me out for creating an association" (what exactly would be the benefit of me doing that anyway?)

[Dannflor]

to be specific i would like you to to spell out why you think that vote is terrible

How is it not?

Specifically, what is good about it and why did you make it?

I thought it was a little bit weird that outoforder took my original post about them seriously. I also found the "Im not too sure of anything yet" to be overly noncommittal

but I wanted to see what people would assume of my vote if I left out the explanation

[Dannflor]

Do you think it's scummy that they didn't get your joke?

i think it can be. there was an MD thread about this awhile back and generally I've found scum are more likely to take things overly seriously than not.

that being said, it might simply be a case of me not making my parody clear enough, outoforder having a more serious personality, or the worst case scenario... i just wasn't funny.

[Dannflor]

It’s the start of day one, isn’t this the time of any
To not necessarily hard commit to things?

you seem to have the idea that voting somewhere equal a hard commit

[Dannflor]

vivax is there a reason you didn't explain random voting stage to your friend

[Dannflor]

think we'll probably not end up agreeing on that particular point of mafia philosophy

[Dannflor]

it's kinda wild to me that it's not some places tbh

[Dannflor]

UNVOTE: welp i got nothing from all that except a stronger confidence in DarthPunk as town

[Dannflor]

UNVOTE: welp i got nothing from all that except a stronger confidence in DarthPunk as town

If you did it for a reaction, why not wait for outoforder's reaction?

i got the reactions from darthpunk and vivax

i think outoforder can react to my questions/comments on their post just fine still, i don't think the vote carries a lot of weight now that ive talked about the process behind it

[Dannflor]

I just didn't feel like my vote on outoforder was very well placed after talking to both you and DarthPunk

aside from that it was largely for show, i wanted to share where my reads were at

[Dannflor]

Sorry I literally couldn’t post for a bit was getting an SQL error.

I think luca looks really good right now.

VOTE: Unvote

I enjoyed the banter was fun.

what sparked the unvote?

[Dannflor]

Your reaction to this was to forgive Darth and back off. Is that not, like, a bit odd? Aren't you concerned that Darth could be playing you here?

well, it's clear to me that Darth and I are coming from very different backgrounds and our understanding of how the beginning of a mafia game works is clearly different. I think that in part is responsible for some of the conflict generated between us, so I'm probably being more "forgiving" than I usually would be. I also don't necessarily think that because DP and I read something differently means we are of a different alignment, in fact his reaction made sense to me given the different backgrounds thing I mentioned

However, as far as the push on me, I find it more odd that he had such a visceral reaction but has since decided to back off and I'm not sure what triggered that change

[Dannflor]

outoforder can be town

[Dannflor]

gob is town

[Dannflor]

Dunn is definitely mafia

[Dannflor]

oatsmaster can you elaborate on why vivax is a scumread?

[Dannflor]

I think Roden’s indignation/annoyance / wanting to fuck with oatsmaster leans townie

I’m not sure scum gets so bogged down in trying to be annoying when the opportunity to be the “sane” one and try to win the argument is right there

[Dannflor]

I think Superfluousninja is scum.

Generally, I think her posting revolves far more around "winning" interactions and signposting her intentions in an attempt to look town and than it is based around actually detecting people's alignments.

In 120, Ninja responds to Vivax's theory that she might be scum with this:

Yeah. THIS is just nonsense. Why would an alleged scum version of myself want to make such clear lines in the sand when day 1 was, for me at least, less than an hour old? Like I know yall were talking while I was getting my beauty sleep, but the idea that I was actually trying to choose sides this early is just not logical.

The LAST thing any scum ever wants to do, like ever, and much less at the very very beginning of the game, is have any clear allegiance with anyone. So this theory of yours seems like poor theorycrafting IMO.

this response, especially the last line feels a lot more like a scum response to a perceived "inaccurate" accusation than a town response. the whole response is based around dissecting Vivax's logic and basically calling it bad, ergo Ninja cannot be scum. the primary motivation here is for Ninja to show that she cannot be scum based on Vivax's obviously faulty logic.

but I'm not sure why a town!Ninja isn't more suspicious of Vivax or trying to interrogate Vivax more on his thought process to try and determine his alignment. I would think a town!Ninja's primary motivation here would be to try and detect which alignment Vivax is coming from. Instead, the last line of this post seems to assume that Vivax is town, by calling his attack poor thinking, instead of considering that it might be fake.

Her followup in 129 is again focused on Vivax not being "fair" and his summation of her gameplay so far being inaccurate. again, very focused on the inaccuracies and her presentation of herself.

132 feels weird to me because she is immediately trying to undermine my strongest (and only at the time) town read. The tone of this post doesn't appear to indicate that Ninja actually thinks I'm suspicious for town reading DP, but rather it seems more geared towards trying to convince me to scum read him

Later, with Ninja's push on OutofOrder, I still don't really believe Ninja is trying to sort between who is scum and who isn't.

Like what do I need to do here to get you to actually explain your actions? Do you need me to vote for you to put the pressure on? Because I think I've reached that point.

In fact, Ninja's whole thing behind this vote is that it is very explicitly a pressure vote to get Out of Order to explain himself. She calls the behavior of outoforder "headscratching" but again I don't really get the vibe that Ninja thinks outoforder is scum.

I'm leaving my vote on OutOfOrder for now because I want to see my actions through on that one, but I'm fully in favor of a vote against Gob after all this.

I feel like this, again, betrays that the vote on OutOfOrder is very much just like... an optics thing that she feels too self-conscious to move before like getting some arbitrary amount of engagement from OoO. It's also such a weird signpost that I think most often comes from scum who are planning their trajectory throughout the day, rather than a townie who is reacting to things naturally and doesn't necessarily know where their suspicions or vote might lead them next.

Like, it is not at all clear to me why Ninja thinks that once OutOfOrder responds that she is going to stop suspecting him and be good to move onto gob. Instead, it sounds like she's already decided to stop suspecting OutOfOrder once he responds and Ninja can move onto pushing gob which is what she really wants to do. Like she "wants to see her actions through" which means what exactly?

Furthermore, I feel like Ninja's interactions with gob have been very... "ahah! I've got you!"-coded

like gob seems disengaged thus far and clearly enjoys kinda being annoying towards Ninja. I don't think either of these features are super alignment indicative but Ninja's whole post 348 is about how gob's disengagement and "weirdness" must be from scum. and idk it just doesn't read genuine to me.

some of this read stems from me town reading all of roden/gob/outoforder and I think gob in particular is a pretty juicy target to push as scum because a lot of his logic looks surface level scummy and I don't think he particularly cares about being town read as town, so Ninja launching into a huge case about why gob is scum (while keeping a contrived vote on outoforder) looks bad to me

also i think the way she's played around the whole Roden vs. oats master thing has been kinda one dimensional. Like she basically went into that and immediately decided it was an SvT and oatsmaster was town and Roden was pretty sus. although it doesn't appear Ninja is interested in actually pushing that and would like the conflict to keep going? which is kind of conf biasing me into thinking Roden vs. oatsmaster is town vs. town.

but I'm contrasting this with Luca's read on the situation, which, while similar, has greater nuance. Luca is still questioning oatsmaster and I don't think is necessarily trying to encourage the conflict to continue

[Dannflor]

VOTE: superfluousninja

[Dannflor]

dunnstral why is superfluous' assertion about lurkers like the most interesting thing to you about this game so far

i don't think you're scum for lurking but i don't understand why you are picking at the things you are picking at

[Dannflor]

I also don't really buy superfluousninja's read on Luca

or rather it reads like scum trying to pocket a townie. I do think Luca is town, but the way superfluousninja worded her read in 311 feels both way too strong way too early and feels like... idk it is trying to flatter luca more than actually explain to others why he is town?

[Dannflor]

Like what is going on here?
I also am not really wanting to believe that a town person constantly refers to "the town" in 3rd person because thats just silly.

this phrasing comes from town a lot and i don't think it's a good reason to scum read roden

[Dannflor]

actually my town read on roden might be too hasty, I see a world where ninja's soft sus on roden without overtly pushing him is distancing

[Dannflor]

like gob seems disengaged thus far and clearly enjoys kinda being annoying towards Ninja. I don't think either of these features are super alignment indicative

Why is this not alignment indicative?

having played with gob before i've seen these sorts of behaviors from him as both alignments

[Dannflor]

dunnstral why is superfluous' assertion about lurkers like the most interesting thing to you about this game so far

i don't think you're scum for lurking but i don't understand why you are picking at the things you are picking at

Do you not think lack of engagement is a mafia tell?

Does it concern you that Dunstrall is only pushing back on the assertion that would cause him to be in the list of mafia?

it doesn't concern me that dunstral is pushing back on this, I don't disagree that it's not a great tell

it concerns me that of all the things in the game thread this is what seems most interesting to him. I don't really know what it tells him about Ninja's alignment or what value he gets out of arguing this point

[Dannflor]

Basically my case on GOB is that he openly stated he was posting for the sake of posting.

That is mafia 101 scummy. What can I say? I am a simple man, I see a scum claim, I vote.

I don't think this is scummy

town post for the sake of posting probably more often than scum

[Dannflor]

I also don't really buy superfluousninja's read on Luca

or rather it reads like scum trying to pocket a townie. I do think Luca is town, but the way superfluousninja worded her read in 311 feels both way too strong way too early and feels like... idk it is trying to flatter luca more than actually explain to others why he is town?

So you think I made the right read, but the way I presented this allegedly correct read was so perplexing that you're casting your vote for me? This is your case?

I don't know if you missed 374 but no this is not the entirety of the issues I have with you

but yes I think your read on luca is awkward/forced

[Dannflor]

I'm more cautious about voting in this setup because its Instant Majority, and I need to consider timeframes. Like probably hammer will be during peak EU_US crossover time while I'm sleeping. So I want to be really comfortable with where I park my vote while I'm away.

generally no one is going to quick hammer and risk backlash, people will wait for claim

and people generally announce when it gets two or one away from elimination

[Dannflor]

anyways, don't love Ninja's immediate reaction but I'll refrain from further comment until she's had a chance to catch up and respond given the aforementioned terrible evneing

hope it gets better for you ninja

[Dannflor]

Basically my case on GOB is that he openly stated he was posting for the sake of posting.

That is mafia 101 scummy. What can I say? I am a simple man, I see a scum claim, I vote.

I don't think this is scummy

town post for the sake of posting probably more often than scum

This is just not true

Yeah I am struggling with people who

seem

to know a lot but really don't seem to know the basics.

a lot of commonly held wisdom about mafia are misconceptions

[Dannflor]

dunnstral why is superfluous' assertion about lurkers like the most interesting thing to you about this game so far

i don't think you're scum for lurking but i don't understand why you are picking at the things you are picking at

Do you not think lack of engagement is a mafia tell?

Does it concern you that Dunstrall is only pushing back on the assertion that would cause him to be in the list of mafia?

it doesn't concern me that dunstral is pushing back on this, I don't disagree that it's not a great tell

it concerns me that of all the things in the game thread this is what seems most interesting to him. I don't really know what it tells him about Ninja's alignment or what value he gets out of arguing this point

Can you respond to this again in a way that makes sense, I am not trying to be mean but I genuinely don't understand what you are trying to say here.

It concerns me that this is what Dunnstral is focusing on almost solely on arguing this point about engagement because it doesn't really look like he's sorting Ninja with it. It looks like he's arguing a point for the sake of being correct.

It concerns me that this is what Dunnstral is choosing to engage with out of all the possible things in the thread he could be engaging with.

Does that make sense?

[Dannflor]

hmmmm

[Dannflor]

I think I'm wrong on Ninja

[Dannflor]

VOTE: DarthPunk

[Dannflor]

based on ninja's response i think she has a style of typing that triggers a lot of my scum tells but i am guessing is not actually scum indicative for her

i like the desperate tone of her response of like "everyone please interrogate me"

it feels earnest and like a townie who really wants to show her alignment successfully

[Dannflor]

i really dislike how cautiously DP approached my case on Ninja


in DP's catchup post 382 he slides Ninja into a lean scum position but doesn't comment on my case or push there


his first comment on it is 389 where he asks Oats what *he* thinks about my case. It feels as though through pages 16-17 that DP is waiting to see how others react to my case before he takes a firm stance either way.


i feel like posts 415 and 416 are trying too hard to be reasonable and set DP up to join the growing wagon on Ninja. Like I think Ninja's initial reaction looked very bad because she missed my initial case and didn't stick around much besides dumping a kind of confusing reads list. oatsmaster, gob, and hu tao all had immediate reactions of "yup good case + looks like scum" whereas it looks like DP feels the need to make it look like he's very earnestly trying to engage with Ninja before joining the wagon.

It is hard for me to explain why this sequence of posts bothers me so much and I'm worried I'm not communication it well. But I think the best way to describe it is this:

1. DP is ostensibly lean scum reading Ninja
2. Dannflor comes along and writes a big wall case on Ninja that is generally well received
3. Ninja has an optically bad initial reaction to the case
4. several other players come to a quick similar conclusion that ninja looks like scum

given that series of events would you expect town!DP to

A. vote Ninja

or

B. make a series of posts justifying his continuing scum read while simultaneously giving Ninja the benefit of the doubt


furthermore I feel like 421 immediately followed up by 422 are overly explanatory about why he doesn't feel comfortable voting Ninja yet

generally i just get the vibe from DP of trying to present themselves as overly reasonable which i think is a common scum tactic. plus i think if Ninja is town his hesitant reaction to my push - almost trying to play the middle - is the most likely position for scum to be taking up

[Dannflor]

Also @Dannflor why do you townread Roden? What has Roden said or done that deserves a town read?

I'm not sure if I'm town reading Roden at the moment

I did originally think that his attitude towards oatsmaster had an indignant towny tone but I don't have super strong feelings about that anymore

[Dannflor]

for transparency, im somewhere around here right now:

TOWN: Luca Blight, outoforder, Oatsmaster
LEAN TOWN: gob, Hu Tao, SuperfluousNinja
MIXED/NULL: Dunnstral, Naerys, MalcolmTucker, Roden
LEAN SCUM: Vivax
SCUM: DarthPunk

[Dannflor]

what convinced you on ninja town, vivax?

[Dannflor]

Why do you town read me?

idk vibes

i liked your initial interaction with a thread because it looked like town kinda skimming along trying to find something to sink their teeth into. i think scum worries more about looking like they are engaging on a deeper level

uh i liked that you just sheeped my case and didn't worry about how that might look

it's not the strongest town read ever but you haven't given me any reason not to believe in it

[Dannflor]

Ninja, if you’re town, I think it is far more likely that scum positioned to look good off your town flip and let town (me) take the heat for hard pushing you.

I would also note that nowhere does DP reveal that he thinks my case is “bad.” He is ostensibly on board and agrees with several points, but for some reason he is very hesitant about looking like he’s pushing you too hard

[Dannflor]

naerys you should vote DP instead of outoforder

[Dannflor]

I would also argue that my case wasn’t bad regardless of how accurate it was, but that is neither here nor there

[Dannflor]

No offense, Ninja, but I think you are approaching this with some rather simplistic thinking of “town would town read me” and “scum would want to push me”.

But if a bunch of townies mistakenly thought you were scum, wouldn’t the intuitive course if action for scum be to sit back and let town take each other out?

[Dannflor]

I don’t think it’s a good tell by itself, no

Not sure why that is important

[Dannflor]

well you would say that wouldn’t you

[Dannflor]

sounds like you don’t have very good scum players over there

[Dannflor]

roden what is your read on DOP

[Dannflor]

catching up now

[Dannflor]

VOTE: vivax don't really think it is darthpunk anymore

[Dannflor]

superfluousninja it feels like you are way more verbose here than you were in your other completed games on site a few years ago

is there a reason for that specifically

[Dannflor]

VOTE: vivax don't really think it is darthpunk anymore

why not?

mainly because several people who appear to be very familiar with Darth Punk's game disagreed with my read on that slot. and I can see where DP's distaste for my cases come from. There's a sort of "I know I'm right and you're stupid" tone in his reaction to my push on him that I lean towny. I think scum probably would've been attracted to piece-by-piece dismantling my case instead of outright dismissing it

[Dannflor]

idk there's also an element of his posting just being kind of annoying and i find i get annoyed by town way more than i do scum posting lmao

[Dannflor]

i kinda think out of everyone that vivax's reads just look the most made up tbh

[Dannflor]

someone asked me what I think about 562 I think

I think it leans scummy and I wouldn't be surprised if Roden flips scum, but nothing about it like really alarms me.

I reasonably comfortable with Ninja being town so I don't love the vote there. I don't super love the post-hoc explanation about his trajectory on scum reading to town reading me. I am wary of that type of posting being more about wanting to get credit for his Very Real Thought Process rather than just explaining his read.

in short Roden is another wagon I'm probably onboard with

[Dannflor]

I feel like a number of people (and people pretty familiar with Vivax?) have said various things along the lines of Vivax seeming different this game or that he seems scummy or that his reads don't make sense - and I'm wondering why no one actually seems to want to vote him

[Dannflor]

VOTE: roden

I guess this is fine for now in the interests of not pushing a vanity wagon

[Dannflor]

no, i don't think i will

[Dannflor]

tbh i kinda think you and roden are partnered anyway

[Dannflor]

I found Roden very townie so far.

As for Roden I concede that I need to reevaluate especially after the part with the 'offsite friends' thing which is like a meek complaint that he's getting five-finger-death-punched by Oats consistently and he's silently blaming me for bringing him into this mess. To that I have to say that everyone is here out of their own free will and we aren't off the table for each other while being from the same community (which is a concern town Roden might legitimately hold with sufficient paranoia), it's just that our site doesn't host that much lately.

If you read P11 and think Roden is scum then you should replay the tutorial

It bugs me that Roden seems to be an universal scumread and Oats an universal townread.

Get your vote off Roden

i don't feel this has the depth or conviction of someone who strongly believes roden is town

[Dannflor]

gob what's it gonna take to get you into this game

[Dannflor]

I might just be ride or die Dann because he dodged the Luca question back in early game.

again, struggling to believe this is actually a reason someone would believe in enough to feel "ride or die" about a read

[Dannflor]

I'll address this also real quick. Realize my last game here was 5 years ago. Since then I started writing more in general, I have written some short stories, started a blog, and am currently working on a novel (insert Gob jab here about how I already have on this forum lululul hilariousjokes.com). I've just learned that I like to write and so I do more of it these days.

that does explain a lot

[Dannflor]

VOTE: oatsmaster
oh and this is scum btw

Naerys i know you said your attention is elsewhere but can you spare a crumb of your thought process behind this vote

[Dannflor]

vivax are you familiar with outororder? Is the hyperbole uncharacteristic?

[Dannflor]

To be clear, my current pool would be Oats/Ninja/OoO but Ninja is more on a whim right now.
That said I appreciate that Naerys thinks similarly.

I guess if I’m wrong on a town read in these three I think OoO is the most likely to be wrong?

I feel increasingly solid about Ninja as town

[Dannflor]

no that's not why i town read ninja

[Dannflor]

thoughts on Roden, hu tao?

[Dannflor]

VOTE: dunnstral

[Dannflor]

mkay VOTE: roden

[Dannflor]

let's do roden

[Dannflor]

I didn’t realize it put him at e-1 actually

I didn’t think there were that many votes on him

I have somewhat high expectations of Dunnstral that he hasn’t really met this game. I think he has the capability of being more insightful even with a lower engagement. He could be town, but I felt fine applying some pressure there in the moment

[Dannflor]

I really should have checked the VC, sorry

I didn't even realize until Ninja pointed it out, I only backed off because I thought outoforder was hinting at masons or something lmao

[Dannflor]

let's do roden

If I'm completely wrong on Dannflor, Roden is the read I most expect to be my incorrect scum read. If we yeet Roden today and he flips town, my back-up theory is Vivex / Hu Tao / Dannflor.

I'm having some serious buyer's remorse putting Dannflor into firm town territory in my post and I'm starting to wonder if I got carried away with thinking he'd be nuts to try and frame me.

Someone talk some sense into me? Does anyone want to take up an angle with me on how my read on Dannflor is wrong?

you know just because you put me as town doesn't mean you can't change your read on a whim

something that bothers me about your posts (which was part of the basis of my initial case on you) is that you feel the need to signpost all of your reads and the changes therein, and that type of self consciousness comes from scum a lot who feel the need to make sure their internal consistency is visible to everyone (since it is fake)

but you can just like... change your mind

[Dannflor]

he'd be nuts to try and frame me.

can you explain where this thought is coming from

[Dannflor]

Dunnstral (4) : Grackaroni / DarthPunk / Vivax / Hu Tao [Exe-3]

Roden (3) : Luca Blight / SuperflousNinja / Dannflor

SuperfluousNinja (2) : Roden / oatsmaster

looking at the VC I actually feel worse about the Dunnstral wagon and better about the Roden wagon

Luca Blight and Ninja might be my two most confident town reads at the moment? Meanwhile the Dunnstral wagon is filled with much less confident town reads and Vivax. With Roden being largely absent I'd expect his wagon to be both larger and filled with less town slots if he were town here

[Dannflor]

Maybe that's something I need to get a feel for with you all, then. The only other place I played mafia was on personalitycafe.com and there people were generally a lot more intolerant of views changing and what not.

It'll vary site to site and even person to person

It's a *general* scum tell I use but I think in individual circumstances like yourself it's not necessarily scummy

[Dannflor]

i keep returning to 562 and thinking it's just a scum post

[Dannflor]

by the way, Ninja, if Roden is mafia here, I don't think it's wise to assume that his scum buddies would exclusively be in the slots defending him

I would expect at least one of his buddies to be soft pushing him or keeping him in their suspect pool given his relative absence and widespread suspicion

[Dannflor]

idk hu tao doesn't feel that survivalistic to me

[Dannflor]

roden what is your read on DOP

Who is DOP?

I meant, DP here, sorry

[Dannflor]

AlertMe when its like 4 days before EoD, I will start the push then so it does not lose steam.

go gob go

[Dannflor]

Im still really stuck on dann's very very quick reversal from ninja to dp so hed be the 3rd name I throw in there

I don't really know why you are stuck on this or exactly what you think I gain as scum unless I'm partnered with exactly Ninja.

The fact is that the very very quick reversals even after writing huge cases is something I can point to in any of my games and I'm happy to link them to you if that's a huge sticking point. I'm self meta casing here, but I would probably wager that type of reversal and read fluidity happens way more often in my town games than in my scum games.

It's largely a factor of my playstyle and the fact that I'm a pretty indecisive person at heart and I want to be as accurate as possible

[Dannflor]

Why does he care about who Vivax scumreads? Or like "if one of these three NEEDS to be mafia THEN it's this guy". Seems a bit out of place how to talk to your scumread.

I am not exceptionally confident on my Vivax scum read

I think it's worth trying to view the game in case Vivax is town, even hypothetically, because in that case I think it is more likely his reads are accurate

[Dannflor]

why should people town read you this game, vivax

[Dannflor]

You don’t really know why it’s scummy to not be invested in the most effort you’ve put into the game so far?

okay that's not really an engagement with anything i said

[Dannflor]

I'm not deviating from my scumreads fyi.
Can't make me. If you want you can yeet someone. I see no point in writing more right now until I am proven wrong. Everything else feels like wasted energy.

OoO is still basing his read on RVS at page 42 and Oats complains that I'm voting my scumread and not Roden and framed it as if that's a safe vote when it's just what I should be doing. I'm not going to fold to peer pressure here.

It's Oats, Ninja and OoO

this feels too static

[Dannflor]

More importantly, though, is Dann making up a case against me that isn't real?

I'm not sure where this is coming from given I've said repeatedly that I'm town reading you.

My worry about you sign posting was sparked by you saying you have "buyer's remorse putting Dannflor into firm town territory in my post." Which like, tells me that you actually have doubts about me or maybe are scum reading me more than you said in your post but you feel like because you slotted me as a town read in your post you can't express doubts about me or start scum reading me without like creating a whole new reads list or something.

it felt like you felt tied down to your reads list

[Dannflor]

You don’t really know why it’s scummy to not be invested in the most effort you’ve put into the game so far?

okay that's not really an engagement with anything i said

It’s a question

I see why someone would think it scummy on a surface level but I don't know why you're hung up on it if you think about it for more than a minute

[Dannflor]

Alright who do you think we should go? Please don’t say darth punk

is there a reason to strongly town read DP

or do you just think there are far better lim candidates

[Dannflor]

So explain to me how it’s only townie to do what you did

I think that type of read fluidity is a lot harder (at least for me) to replicate as scum and it largely stems from wanting to be right and not really caring how I look

but I already said this so we probably just won't agree

[Dannflor]

I am more amicable and diplomatic as mafia. I rarely take risks. I think if I had to pick my mafia version for this game it would be much more similar to how Luca Blight plays.
Maybe I should scumread him after all.

okay so i read this and think about how you went "let's fight Dann"

and then immediately backed off

[Dannflor]

I mean I think in general scum tend to be more static and less fluid in their reads, that's the common trend in my opinion. I think making a big case on someone then immediately backing off is like, not the intuitive scum move vs. tunneling someone

uhh basically, I'm trying very hard as town to improve my read accuracy and that means not just sticking to the first scum read if I get good evidence to the contrary

[Dannflor]

I guess it's more that your attitude seems to be that you've decided to have these reads almost out of spite, rather than it being something you really believe in and want to show everyone else

maybe that's a misread but when you use phrases like "can't make me" it feels like the point is to be stubborn and static, not to actually solve the game

[Dannflor]

sure, i could, that's the problem with self-meta. I think I'd be more self-conscious as scum and would either feel to awkward to make that swap or would do so more awkwardly but your mileage may vary

I accept it's probably not a ridiculous reason to scum read me especially if you aren't familiar with me

[Dannflor]

i think my gut wants to put vivax as town and DP as scum

I can't really substantiate that beyond vague feelings when I scroll through their ISOs though

[Dannflor]

The main thing I'm bothered about by Luca is that he hasn't really pushed anything himself and doesn't have any strong scum reads outside of the consensus Roden

[Dannflor]

i snorted

[Dannflor]

very generally? yes

but I think any half-decent scum player can sustain activity for as long as needed

[Dannflor]

only town can post on this page

[Dannflor]

fuck

[Dannflor]

I am increasingly liking Vivax's posts

[Dannflor]

roden i feel like you are just arguing with ninja for the sake of arguing

[Dannflor]

okay well like maybe that's the point

you're hung up on this gaslighting point when i feel like looking at ninja as a whole I find it pretty hard to scum read her

it just kinda feels like this is a safe place for you to push

idk maybe I'm conf-biasing because you're eternally behind but it seems like your view on the game is super narrow

[Dannflor]

i wanna kill DP

[Dannflor]

i wanna kill DP

That's interesting cause the last post I read you thought I was town again. Now I am scum without having posted anything new?

ya i changed my mind

[Dannflor]

my mind

[Dannflor]

i reread your posts and came to a different conclusion

[Dannflor]

It's a legitmate question Dann. And that is not a legitmate answer, at least it doesn't give anyone anything.
You know how expressing your reads work, right?

I know, I will explain

I was responding in that way to DP because it seemed like he was trying to "gotcha" me by saying it is ludicrous for me to change my read even though he hasn't been around

It's kinda emblematic of my read on DP overall tbh

he seems more focused on "getting people" then like actually sorting

I feel the same way when I look back at how he called my way way early game vote on Out of Order "Terrible." and jumped on me

[Dannflor]

i wanna kill DP

That's interesting cause the last post I read you thought I was town again. Now I am scum without having posted anything new?

ya i changed my mind

Why? I didn't post anything. Are your reads just arbitrary?

like the "Are your reads just arbitrary" assumes a level of malice and shows that he's going into the discussion with an intent to try and make me look bad

or at least that's how it comes off to me

it wasn't just "hey why did your read change"

it was "why did your read change and also DISCREDIT"

[Dannflor]

It's also come to my attention that the people who know DP don't really seem to have good reasons to town read him

or it's more just like "he'll resolve" or "he could be scum but we don't want to D1 him" and thinking that people who knew him better than me had good reasons to town bin him was a large part of the reason I backed off in the first place

[Dannflor]

Do you honestly expect me to respond to that differently than I did?

Honestly? I don't know you and don't necessarily know how you react to stuff as each alignment. But I do think generally town has more curiosity about read changes like that, and are less prone to jump on perceived inconsistencies as scummy.

I think your gameplay pretty much consists solely of jumping on perceived inconsistencies in everyone's posts but not really doing so in a way that shows you're curious about my alignment.

When you started asking me about my read change on you you began the discussion ready to shed me in a negative light

when you called my OOO vote in the early game terrible you didn't bother asking me my thought process behind it until I started interrogating *you*

[Dannflor]

But i don't really understand why she doesn't put me in scum category there.
There should be nothing wrong for her to do that, it would just give her more suspects.
Or is it just being irrational = mafia?

Scum and null are not that much different to mafia

The real question is why she town reads dann after apparently seeing only a vote post, on her, with no explanation.

When the best reason to think dann was town was the case she didn’t read…

Posts like these I also scum read you for

It's like "ahah here is an inconsistency in Ninja's post!" ergo she must be scummy?

Like there's no curiosity on your part. There's no trying to interrogate how that could come from town. The tone and the way this and lot of your posts are worded feel like your primary goal in thread is to cast suspicions on people, not figure out who is scum

[Dannflor]

VOTE: darth punk

[Dannflor]

i wanna kill DP

Now that’s a reason to lim someone because they intimidate you.

Felt it from across the globe once, when I gave him reason to be upset with me. Maybe I‘m just nuts but I felt it.

The force. The juice.

Now, why would you rather get rid of the prospect of having that on your side instead of befriending him if he‘s capable of that ?

because I believe he is scum and I have no qualms about eliminating scum even if they are a good town player

[Dannflor]

I understand this is an uphill battle

I understand none of his friends are going to want to kill DP D1

[Dannflor]

Literally nothing in this case makes me mafia.

I also keep returning to this response to my initial push on DP.

DarthPunk's response isn't to try and figure out whether I'm "bad town" pushing him or mafia pushing him. Instead his initial inclination is to focus on how the case doesn't make him mafia. Again, I don't think a town player's inclination here is to try and debunk the case point by point.

DP spends 568 doing pretty much exactly that

And then he follows up with 570 to ensure that everyone knows that the quality of my case is bad.

He's focused on the quality of my case, not my alignment. I really don't think this guy has been or is still trying to figure out what my alignment is, or anyone's alignment for that matter

[Dannflor]

I don't understand why you guys think he will self resolve

if he's scum he just kills the people who scum read him and wins

[Dannflor]

I'm not scum reading DP because people said he's good at town or because I'm jealous oh my lord

I genuinely think he is scummy and has a high chance of flipping scum

[Dannflor]

I understand this is an uphill battle

I understand none of his friends are going to want to kill DP D1

Is this not a waste of time then?

I am hoping not! or at the very least it might show enough of his colors that we won't lose to him

[Dannflor]

I don't understand why you guys think he will self resolve

if he's scum he just kills the people who scum read him and wins

If he’s alive d4 I’m yeeting him and so should everyone else.

this feels extremely naive

[Dannflor]

I am convicted

[Dannflor]

How about DP and Dann kiss and make up (***) and vote Luca?

why is Luca your most confident scum read?

[Dannflor]

Look, I've laid out over the last couple pages why I think DP is approaching the game with a scum mindset. Generally, I don't think he cares about detecting alignment, I think he cares about looking good and making sure others in the game look bad.

If everyone looks at that and decides it has no merit or doesn't apply to DP, whatever. I'll just sheep my town reads and compromise.

But I believe in this read a lot so I would appreciate at least some consideration of it rather than a *shrug* and telling me DP will self resolve.

[Dannflor]

Dannflor do you hold bias in your read on SuperfluousNinja?

I think I saw bias. I think you might actually be scumreading her, cased her and gave town exactly one shot at limming her before you decided to give her some leeway.

Mind you, I don‘t want this to be a cheating accusation, at most an accusation of being good hearted.

I don't know what this means. I have lingering suspicions because I think her posting style triggers a lot of the scum tells I use but ultimately I think she's town and feel pretty strongly about that. I'm not lying to be nice.

[Dannflor]

yes i'd like to hear your own words on it

[Dannflor]

okay that's two other people beside DP who said my case on DP is bad

I will sleep on it and reconsider

as a side note I don't really vibe with the Luca case overall, I feel like it largely comes down to him not being as present and being more calm than the average player here

[Dannflor]

I could probably kill naerys - not super satisfying but I didn't love 1077 hedging on roden

[Dannflor]

"there is this wagon on luca i have placed interest in, i am voting for DP.
DP isnt happening so lets vote for naerys because she is hedging on roden"????????????????

I didn’t say I was interested in voting for luca, I had a small doubt about him which luca addressed

I also don’t really know that I want to kill naerys, I was just saying she is probably in my lim pool and putting that out there because I’m trying to compromise and work with people

[Dannflor]

anyway im going to bed

Ill decide what I want to do in the morning

[Dannflor]

Ultimately I still probably just wanna go Roden gun to head right now

[Dannflor]

can't sleep, I probably need to do a total reread and re-eval of this game

sorry for being all over the place everyone

[Dannflor]

gob im sorry i think you are town but you are wrong on me

[Dannflor]

lmao that timing

[Dannflor]

It is honestly very hard for me to tell this game what pings I should be listening to because they are genuine scum tells and what is just severely grating playstyle differences. I think it's contributing to a lot of my lack of conviction this game

[Dannflor]

Anyway, I'll stop with the woe is me crap and try to reset myself in the morning and put some actual firm reads together in a reads list because obviously my usual style is not helping anyone, including myself.

[Dannflor]

Dunn is definitely mafia

dunnstral why is superfluous' assertion about lurkers like the most interesting thing to you about this game so far

i don't think you're scum for lurking

but i don't understand why you are picking at the things you are picking at

I just don't understand this progression at all.

Dunn had literally only lurked and then talked about Mafia Meta with Ninja.

oh my god the first post was a JOKE

[Dannflor]

that post, as well as 166 were made immediately after 165 where gob says I have a tell where if I say "x is town" or "x is scum" it means I'm scum

I thought it was funny

[Dannflor]

And I thought it was obvious I did not have enough data yet to say someone was definitely scum at that point in the game

especially because I wasn't voting for him?

[Dannflor]

Dann do you usually post the most in your games?

not always the most of everyone but I'm usually in the top half of posters

I'm pretty equally active as both alignments as far as i know

[Dannflor]

I'm gonna try to detach myself from the current DP/me/Luca stuff because I don't think I can get an earnest read on Luca when he's hard defending me lol

[Dannflor]

Can you summarize your read/case on Hu Tao, Ninja? Or point me to the posts where you state it?

[Dannflor]

SuperFluousNinja (4) : Dannflor / gob / oatsmaster / Hu Tao [Exe-3]

I guess in a town!Ninja world I should probably be considering Hu Tao as scum more seriously.

I think in a world where Ninja is scum, this wagon followed by my case on her is more likely to be all town. I don't think scum would necessarily expect that case to gain traction and the votes following my case didn't really seem like attempts to get credit for bussing.

However, if Ninja is town, I'd find it significantly more likely that a scum joined this wagon to piggy back off a TvT and at a glance the most likely candidate for that is probably Hu Tao? I don't really think gob or oatsmaster are scum for reasons I'll elaborate on.

[Dannflor]

gob, I think tends to have more of a transparent agenda as scum. Even if you don't know him personally, reading through his ISO, I have to ask what he's actually trying to accomplish if he's scum here?

This isn't just a "too scummy to be scum" read, but more of a, how is he furthering his win condition by doing what he's doing?

Like he starts the game by pushing me, then reverses the read. Pushes Ninja with me, then goes back to pushing me. Can't remember why I'm scum, goes to push Darth Punk.

For one, I don't think this does gob any favors optically. Pushing DP is obviously a fool's errand and not likely to get you town read. Hedging so much on me I think comes from gob playing several games with me recently and wanting to be right on me, I don't really see why his mafia game-plan wouldn't be more straight forward in either tunneling me or trying to pocket me. Hedging on me just seems like he risks pissing me off. It's just like... If he's not trying to pocket anyone or look towny, but he's also not trying to get anyone specific killed, what exactly is his plan? It seems like he doesn't have one and I think scum!gob has a plan

There's also just the tone behind a lot of his posts, I think he wants to solve the game. I think he's hard on himself as town (see 1714) and I think he tends to bluster with overconfidence as scum. idk, i just get the vibe that the dude genuinely wants to solve the game and is trying his best damned what anyone else in the thread thinks and I think that's towny

[Dannflor]

I don't quite follow that part... Why wouldn't scum expect that wagon to gain traction?

I think if scum see a townie come out of nowhere with a case on widely town read slot they won't necessarily assume people are going to listen to the case. And there's no reason to hop on early and help build momentum. I think it's more likely if a buddy gets pushed out of the blue like that that scum will wait and see how the thread generally reacts to the case first.

[Dannflor]

I kinda want to just say that Ninja's frustration about no one listening to her about Hu Tao is towny

[Dannflor]

Oh God I just SiGnPoStEd again, didn't I?!

kinda want to town lean posts like this too

I feel like scum might be more self conscious about complaining about the reasons people have scum read them

this feels more like a townie who is frustrated about being scum read for their posting/writing style

[Dannflor]

I also don't really think Ninja needs to defend Luca if she's scum - I guess unless they are exactly partnered? but if that were the case I don't think Luca would call me clearly town for making a case on Ninja in the first place

[Dannflor]

If he were scum I feel like he'd just hang his hat on bitching about long content and just leave it at that. (which is exactly what both Roden and Hu Tao did and is part of why I find them suspicious)

i think that's a pretty good point

[Dannflor]

you guys got wolfed

solve the game

[Dannflor]

I'm rereading Hu Tao's ISO and I think I'd be okay with voting Hu Tao today. (or tomorrow or whatever)

I don't really vibe with Hu Tao's continued scum read of Ninja. I feel like most people have reevaluated on that slot by now but Hu Tao has basically stuck with the same read and it's largely based on Ninja going after inactive slots as they explain in 666.

I don't know, I'm struggling to buy this making Ninja "the scummiest out of everyone" because I think lots of slot are generally just pushing more inactive slots - like Roden has been the consensus biggest scum read for a lot of the day. And like, while I can see having doubts about Ninja, I don't really get having her as a top scum read right now. So I'm worried this is a case of Hu Tao not being able to naturally evolve a read as scum that she would normally rethink as town.

I also kinda side-eye Hu Tao's fixation on people town reading them? First in 544 and then 868 and then 1353. I have used this tactic as mafia before where I question everyone's town reads of me in order to kinda reverse psychology people into conf biasing harder into their town read on me. While I think town can be suspicious of people town reading them too easily, I feel like it's unusual for Hu Tao to be picking at almost every single one. I think at a certain point, town players assume they've been naturally towny enough that they don't question every single town read on them.

Also also I don't really like their soft defense of me during DP's push on me. I'm going to contrast this with Luca's defense of me which was definitely a *hard defense*. First Hu Tao talks up my scum game in 975, then they say I'm probably town in 1353, then she says she "kinda thinks im town" in 1388, but less strongly than before. Idk, I kinda think if Hu Tao was town who did genuinely town read me she would step in to defend me harder at some point, instead the soft defense of me feels like she wants to look good in case my wagon gets pushed through. The only intervention she really does in that whole spat is to tell me that she doesn't think my case on DP is good, which is a very safe post to make during the current thread climate

[Dannflor]

I'm okay with voting Luca or maybe naerys. I think I'm leaning no on roden right now

it's kind of weird that this is the only mention of roden in hu tao's entire ISO

[Dannflor]

I think I'm just gonna slot DP as town since everyone is telling me he's town

and I'll just be smug postgame if that's wrong

I guess if I really look over the last several pages I feel more like it's a TvT than anything else just based on the way the rest of the game is playing around the dynamic

DP has enough moments of step-back reflection on the possibility that I might be town that I buy that it's a genuine read from him

[Dannflor]

Vivax I also want to say is town because he comes up with theories like the idea that I'm pushing DP because I'm threatened by him being a better player than me and... idk i just don't see these types of conjectures coming from scum

I also liked Vivax's reconsideration of Roden in 1140. it felt very natural and I think it's much easier if he's scum to just keep soft-whiteknighting Roden instead of reconsidering when he did

[Dannflor]

I am less certain overall how to read players like oats and OOO. There's clearly a lot of emotion and passion in their posting so I'm pretty sure I can't town read them for activity or enthusiasm.

I like Out of Order's case on Luca, not because I really think it's correct, but because it's a read that goes against the grain of the thread and then OOO get's really bent out of shape about people not paying attention to it. It's a similar townie type of indignation that I think is evident in Ninja's posting. Like, "hey everyone i made a case please engage me with it" whereas I think scum would just be happy to make the case and leave it be

Oatsmaster I don't really have anything specific I can find to point to that I think is really hard to fake or that I think oats wouldn't post as scum. I have more of a general vibey town read here based on where he's pushing on how. I think his hyper focus between me/roden is probably towny. I think his trajectory from town reading me to scum reading me is natural and I think his defense of DP is a little too strong to be scum white knighting a townie. I can try to dig into this read more if people want me too but I don't think many people scum read Oats

[Dannflor]

so, I'm slowly winding up back in a place where I'm town reading all the most active thread voices, which I'm not super happy about? But like that might just mean that is correct and scum are playing to the sidelines this game.

[Vivax, gob, SuperfluousNinja, outoforder, oatsmaster, DarthPunk, Luca Blight]

I want to bin all those players as town right now.

Leaving:

[Hu Tao, Grackaroni, Dunnstral, Naerys, Roden]

Of that group, I probably have the best feelings about Grackaroni and Dunnstral, and worst feelings about Hu Tao and Roden. But I wouldn't really be surprised if anyone in this group was scum.

not the most satisfying again to me to be scum reading this group of people, but I've been known to make games harder than they need to be by trying to find the deepwolf first

anyway in conclusion I think I'm good with either a roden or hu tao wagon today

[Dannflor]

also I've tried to reconsider Luca Blight from the standpoint that he might be pocketing me

I just really don't think he goes *so hard* to bat for me as scum, I don't think he suddenly starts hard town reading me after one post I make as scum, because I think he'd be worried about it looking unnatural. Yes, I think he's been reasonable and "relaxed" this game, but I think that's a characteristic of Luca Blight, not scum indicative

[Dannflor]

VOTE: roden

[Dannflor]

if scum is just naerys/hu tao/roden I'm gonna cry

[Dannflor]

The way she picked out Hu Tap felt so random..

It felt more like she started focusing on them because Hu Tao was asserting a strong scum read on her

[Dannflor]

if scum is just naerys/hu tao/roden I'm gonna cry

I thought you'd have more respect for my scum game, but I actually don't think you've played with me when I was scum now that I think about it.

I mean I don't think you've been playing badly this game. I'll be honest I don't really know what I should be looking for in your scum game so I'm taking a pretty wild guess

[Dannflor]

hu tao can you talk about why you're not feeling roden when you get the chance

[Dannflor]

Why would you steer the direction of the conversation away from me to dunnstral here? Seems like more people were open to thinking me as scum and it was more of a deflection to someone else. I'm getting the feeling I was earlier about you that you could be trying to set me up as being voted and you looking towny for being right about me

This was the post Hu Tao was referring to as "read my post before that"

I think it's clear Hu Tao was agreeing with the idea that Vivax steering conversation away from herself was weird.

See, this is what I'm talking about when I get bothered by DarthPunk constantly seeming to be hyperfixated on inconsistencies because in this case he both misinterpreted or misread Hu Tao's post and second... I don't know why on earth Hu Tao would "agree" that she is scummy AND even if Hu Tao didn't read Ninja's post fully and didn't understand Ninja was saying Hu Tao was scum then why would that even make Hu Tao scum?

[Dannflor]

Kinda mad I didn‘t realize first that she was agreeing with ninja on something making me scum that had herself being scum as a prerequisite condition.

why on earth does this make hu tao scum??? like actually

[Dannflor]

like walk me through the thought process of why town wouldn't say they agree with that post but scum does

[Dannflor]

I guess I feel it is more reasonable to assume that Hu Tao agreed your behavior was suspicious for other reasons, rather than that scum!HuTao thought "oh yes, I am scum that Vivax is trying to distract from"

I mean by that logic Hu Tao wouldn't agree with that unless you were scum with her as well

[Dannflor]

why does she agree with that as town when it relies on an assumption of her being mafia for the post to make sense.

again, take this one step further, it also relies on the assumption of Vivax being mafia as well. so like, are you saying Vivax must also be mafia based on that?

why isn't it reasonable to assume that Hu Tao agreed that Vivax's behavior was suspicious for other reasons? Like Hu Tao JUST explained in 1847?

[Dannflor]

I'll just wait for Hu Tao to respond

[Dannflor]

I can't even deal with this site tbh. it's like we are playing a game with two different sets of rules at the same time.

it is frustrating lol

[Dannflor]

I'll try to stop disagreeing with every bit of logic you put forth that I don't agree with, DP

I feel like it's getting to the point where it's probably not actually alignment indicative and I'm just getting in the way of your process without anything productive happening

[Dannflor]

I only understand about half of vivax's posts

[Dannflor]

I am less confident in hu tao being scum now that they've revealed that they have been specifically trying to play around seeing who would town read them / defend them suspiciously

[Dannflor]

It lines up enough with how they were playing in terms of hyperfocusing on why people were town reading them that I believe it has a good chance of being genuine

[Dannflor]

It seems like things are more black and white over there than they are over here

Have you ever killed someone who posted like that and they flipped town?

[Dannflor]

okay fair enough

[Dannflor]

im down to yeet roden

[Dannflor]

fine with a dunnstral wagon

[Dannflor]

fine with a dunnstral wagon

Voterino ?

only if he gets more votes/traction than roden

still would prefer roden

[Dannflor]

roden is at e-2 right now by my count

[Dannflor]

let's get a claim

[Dannflor]

If there's a percentage that's lower than 0%, that's how in favor I am of a DarthPunk yeet.

error, the percentage has wrapped back around to 100%

[Dannflor]

If there's a percentage that's lower than 0%, that's how in favor I am of a DarthPunk yeet.

error, the percentage has wrapped back around to 100%

Have you flipped your read again

im kidding

[Dannflor]

UNVOTE:

would like for everyone to check in

[Dannflor]

is this gonna become vivax vs. hu tao

[Dannflor]

is this gonna become vivax vs. hu tao

Anyone else in mind?

idk right now

I just want everyone to check in and react to the claim and then figure out where to go from there

[Dannflor]

like I'm fine with dunnstral theoretically but I agree with what DarthPunk said about it being a pretty low info kill

I'd rather just get confirmation that Roden is probably true claiming and then relook at the game assuming roden is town

[Dannflor]

Wait, I am assuming set ups work the same here as on TL.

Dann could this be a plausible fake claim in your opinion?

I think it's probably legit

I mean, it's not 100%. There could be a scum jail keeper, or he could be trying to draw out other protective rolls. But I think as scum that there are other claims that would be more likely to draw out good town roles

plus he kinda boxes himself in if he's scum here