Mini 859 - Cleansing of Falls Church - Over

[Sanjay]

/confirm

[Sanjay]

Nice to know I can read just one game to get a feel on practically everyone's playstyles.

[Sanjay]

Oh, that's a relief.

I'd hate to have to read the first letter of every one of your paragraphs specially to make sure you weren't breadcrumbing a future fake claim.

[Sanjay]

That's what you think, BigBear.
Human nature is to slip up, so no one is too good.
Even the best mafia players make mistakes sometimes.

Far_Cry, I was making reference to this game.
Lots of our players participated in it.
You can see if you read it the game that BigBear made this fakeclaim.
It was supported by this fake breadcrumb.
No doubt, BigBear is unlikely to pull the stunt again, town or scum.
Going to guess he doesn't.

People don't change.
Unless there is some reason to.
Mainly because of getting caught.
Playstyles do change.
Kind of think BigBear's would.
In the event he is town or the event he is scum, he is likely to try to avoid acting like his scum meta.
Nearly everyone tries to do that.

That's what I was saying.
He played interestingly that game.
All I wanted to do was point that out.
That's all.

So, when do you guys think nook is going to get here?
He is a pretty new to MafiaScum, I think.
One wonders what his play is going to be like.
One wonders what everyone's play is going to be like.
Though if nook confirms, we can all find out.
Sweet.

Last two games I replaced in.
Always coming in with plenty of game to analyze.
So starting a game is going to be pretty fun.
Excited? You bet.
Random votes, here I come.

BigBear, do you think this post is going on too long?
Even I'm getting a little tired of it.
All I'm hoping is that it doesn't sound too awkward.
Meaning I don't want this to sound stilted at all.
Sort of ruins the effect.

Only a few more words to go.
Until this post is complete.
Thank goodness.

Oh yeah.
For real.

I think that's almost it.
Thanks for reading.
Soon I'll be done.

Aaaand that's a wrap.
Sayonara!
Sanjay out.

[Sanjay]

I forgive you.

[Sanjay]

Nice distancing, nook and looker. You two are obv-scum.

Vote: nook

[Sanjay]

I forgive you.

Btw, that link in your siggy is amazing. I cried a few times.

Thanks! I'm pretty proud of it.

[Sanjay]

And there's the chainsaw defense.

Pretty pleased with myself for finding all three scum in just two pages.

[Sanjay]

What about my personal guarantee?

[Sanjay]

I thought three scum was standard for a twelve person setup. After we lynch nook, Looker and BigBear, if the game isn't over, I'll re-evaluate that assumption.

[Sanjay]

I'm glad DRK and Shrinehme have been so easy to convince.

It's so frustrating when you figure out all the scum but can't convince the rest of the town to lynch them.

Peabody will come around I'm sure.

[Sanjay]

You bandwagoning monster.

[Sanjay]

Sanjay, are you being serious?

Looks like I successfully dodged this question.

I guess now we'll never know.

[Sanjay]

Shrinehme, I know in this instance you wouldn't, but as a general rule do you follow Lynch All Name Butchers?

[Sanjay]

So much so that you abandoned your seemingly non-random vote on DeathRowKitty to put a vote on name butchery Shrinehme?

Was your vote on DeathRowKitty less than serious or do you really hate Name Butchers that much?

[Sanjay]

What's your goal in the Random Vote Stage, ConfidAnon?

[Sanjay]

nook, Looker

: It really makes no difference to me since I know you are both scum and we'll get the other one tomorrow, but do you guys have a preference which one of you the town lynches first?

[Sanjay]

I didn't drop you. I just want to keep you around the longest because you are actually posting, and that's so much more fun.

[Sanjay]

Talk is cheap. Drop a vote.

[Sanjay]

Oh, is that why you asked me the more neutral "Are you being serious?" in response to that quote the first time?

Because I have to say, that question didn't make a whole lot of sense.

[Sanjay]

Unless it cramps your style, could one or both of you two get avatars?

[Sanjay]

You want to explain that one, BigBear?

[Sanjay]

Far_Cry, was it really necessary to call nook an idiot? Can't we save the personal attacks for post-game?

Also, why are you so eager to get out of the random voting stage?

[Sanjay]

This really looks to me like making a big deal out of nothing, even for the RVS. I could be wrong, but I'm fairly certain BB is either trying to be lynchbait to get us out of the RVS or is just playing around (hopefully I didn't just give him an excuse...).

BB's actions thus far would be terrible scum play and I have a hard time believing that it is scum play

. Considering that FC hadn't commented on BB's play (besides saying BB needed to stop saying stupid things), a vote out of the blue based on a no lynch vote seems like FC reaching to get a bandwagon started on BB, especially when

there was legitimate evidence to bring up against BB

.

DRK, the bolded portions of your quote seem a bit contradictory to me. Would you mind explaining away the contradiction for me?

[Sanjay]

So what exactly was your rationale for dropping the vote on DeathRowKitty? Surely that was more provocative than the vote you changed it to.

[Sanjay]

Okay, just throwing it out there, shoot it down if you want.

You get the most votes, the closest to a lynch, and then BigBear votes no lynch.
Far_Cry votes BigBear for wanting a no lynch.
You vote Far_Cry.

Shoot it down.

To be honest . . . . that's not that bad of a theory.

One thing holding me back: I've seen BigBear play as scum. He's competent, and voting No Lynch is horrible scum play.

No offense to Looker, but this is a terrible theory.

Firstly, it supposes that BigBear is stupid enough both to believe that the RVS wagon on Shrinehme is enough of a threat to his scumbuddy to take drastic action.

Secondly, it supposes that BigBear is stupid enough to believe voting no lynch would work. Sure, it could serve to distract from his scumbuddy, but I don't really see how distracting from your scumbuddy by heaping a bunch of suspicion on yourself is a good idea.

Thirdly, it supposes that scum are going to vote to help out their scumbuddies even in the random voting stage, when the threat of lynching is very low.

unvote: nook

vote: ConfidAnon

[Sanjay]

You supporting a theory that is rubbish is what warranted the vote, ConfidAnon.

[Sanjay]

That's because I respect you, ConfidAnon, and have a tough time believing you actually thought that theory was good.

I think you just said it was because you were trying to be chummy, or at worst because you were trying to spread ungrounded suspicions, both which ARE scumtells.

[Sanjay]

And casting suspicion on a lot of people so you can support favorable lynches later is a genuine scum tactic. That's why my vote is on you, ConfidAnon.

[Sanjay]

The theory casts suspicion on people.

[Sanjay]

Okay, just throwing it out there, shoot it down if you want.

You get the most votes, the closest to a lynch, and then BigBear votes no lynch.
Far_Cry votes BigBear for wanting a no lynch.
You vote Far_Cry.

Shoot it down.

Looker, what do you think of my allegation that your theory is so bad that ConfidAnon is scummy just for supporting it?

[Sanjay]

That's just fine with me.

Unvote

Vote: brothernature

Where you at?

[Sanjay]

Pro-town lurking though, right?

[Sanjay]

Oh, I'm really glad SOMEONE is observing what is going on. I totally forgot!

What have you seen? Who is the scummiest to you right now?

[Sanjay]

Get your own looker to taunt, Shrinehme. This one is mine.

[Sanjay]

EDIT: lurker to taunt.

[Sanjay]

You could taunt Looker though I guess?

[Sanjay]

Well, if I convince brothernature to tell us who he thinks is the most suspicious, and you convince him to vote for someone, maybe...

I don't know. I thought I had an idea of how those two things could go together, but I guess I lost it.

[Sanjay]

What are your thoughts on EtherealCookie?

I've read EtherealCookie's posts a couple of times and I really can't get much of a read on him. The first bunch of pages of this game have been steeped in irony and sarcasm, and that kind of playstyle makes EtherealCookie's posts hard to read.

I think he might have gotten worse since DeathRowKitty because he didn't like being called the most useless.

I wouldn't mind him as a day 1 lynch, but I'd rather lynch someone I have a scummy read on.

[Sanjay]

Wouldn't jesters be a bit uncommon in a normal game?

[Sanjay]

I thought that was what you were here for, Looker.

[Sanjay]

If the town is going to lynch the jester no matter what, wouldn't the best way to deal with the possibility of a jester be to declare that we lynch all jesters and if you'd like to be lynched then come on down and we'd be happy to oblige you?

I assume we don't have a jester so it's not really that important, but what's with all this "best play with a jester is probably not to mention it". Mention it and have an easy lynch choice that day.

[Sanjay]

nook, Looker

: It really makes no difference to me since I know you are both scum and we'll get the other one tomorrow, but do you guys have a preference which one of you the town lynches first?

You. I am hereby counterclaiming your breadcrumb. I get to shoot the lasers out of my rear end, not you.

I know we were just joking around here, nook, but what was your rationale for not voting for me back there on page 3?

[Sanjay]

Could you elaborate on what kind of a tell you feel appeal to emotion is and why?

[Sanjay]

Pretty sure js stands for "just saying", but thanks for the attention!

[Sanjay]

I'm kind of lurking because turns out joking about knowing exactly who the mafia is during the random voting stage isn't nearly as helpful towards creating useful discussion as I could have hoped.

[Sanjay]

EtherealCookie, could you summarize the case against you and then explain why we shouldn't be moved by it?

[Sanjay]

Looking forward to it!

[Sanjay]

Zaz, would you mind telling me which of my posts are ambiguous to you?

I don't actually consider Lynch All Name Butchers a reliable tactic and I didn't really think I caught all the scum in the random voting stage and I am not actually a flying pumpkin.

What posts from what players were giving you trouble exactly?

[Sanjay]

Hey, Looker, has everyone talked who you wanted to talk before you answered my question about what you thought about me calling your theory all dumb and stuff?

[Sanjay]

Oh, I'm really glad SOMEONE is observing what is going on. I totally forgot!

What have you seen? Who is the scummiest to you right now?

Thanks for ignoring this,

brothernature

.

[Sanjay]

If Cookie isn't scum, I think he is promising lynch bait. And now that I look at it again, I don't especially like ConfidAnon's vote of EtherealCookie:

Looker is likely Godfather; Sanjay merely a Goon.

I don't know how he knows a godfather even exists. Honestly, half the posts in this thread aren't serious.

I don't like Far Cry's personal attacks, but I don't see anything scummy with him.

I'm just jumping on the Shrinehme bandwagon because I don't get good vibes from him.


Vote: Shrinehme

This vote does not seem protown at all. It practically screams bandwagon.

Unvote, Vote: EtherealCookie

Something about it just doesn't sit right to me. Maybe accusing a post that announces it is jumping on a bandwagon of bandwagoning seems too lazy or something.

And maybe it is trying to confuse anti-town actions with scummy actions.

FoS: ConfidAnon

I'm also a bit curious of this post by Peabody.

Peabody, at the end of this post you suggest a Far_Cry/EtherealCookie scum pair, while to me it doesn't look like you've provided any evidence for a connection between these players at all. What am I missing here?

To me it just looks like a whole lot of individual scumtells. Maybe you know one of them is scum and you are trying to set-up a mislynch in case said scumbuddy gets lynched, perhaps?

Please elaborate on why you thought at that point a Far_Cry/EtherealCookie pair was likely enough to mention.

FoS: Peabody

Looker, could you explain why you delayed answering my question? Given your answer, I see no reason why you had to wait for any of the people you wanted to wait for.

This is what you told me:

The answer to that question depends on further posts from BigBear, Far_Cry, Shrine, & Cookie; however, BigBear & Far_Cry have disappeared. I

will

answer your question, but I'd like for them to get back first. Will that be alright?

I really fail to see how it depended on those posts. Explain to me how your answer would have changed based on those peoples' responses. What were you thinking exactly?

I had taken your theory to be some kind of joke to try to get a rise out of people, but now that I find out you were seriously floating it, I think I'm gonna throw you a vote, for trying to create undue suspicion and for dodging my question for no good reason.

Unvote

Vote: Looker

[Sanjay]

Oh, come on! He has ignored that question since Page 7. 1 page more doesn't hurt after all those pages of ignoring it. My question on the other hand is brand new

Good point.

brothernature, please answer ZazieR's question and if you still have time enough after that could you get to mine?

[Sanjay]

Post 36 – Any reason why Nook over Looker,

Sanjay

?

Yes, actually.

I had just read a game with Looker and he seemed like a player that was probably not liable to drastically overreact during the random voting stage. I hadn't ready any such games with nook so I thought the vote would be better placed on him to see if he might do something interesting.

Post 68 – If this wasn’t serious, then why did you ask this question,

Sanjay

?

They hadn't done anything and I figured they wouldn't ignore their names in big bold letters.

Post 88 –

Sanjay

, why did you ask the question about the RVS?

I've heard some people say eagerness to get out of the RVS was a scumtell. I don't know if I necessarily buy it as a scumtell, but I thought it was worth asking about, especially because it didn't seem like Far_Cry had a lot to move out of the RVS with.

Post 116 – First, lots of assumptions to destroy a theory. Secondly, why did you vote Confid over Looker,

Sanjay

? Don’t like it that it’s based upon disagreement.

Was that supposed to read "lots of assumptions

do

destroy a theory" or something? Because those assumptions are ones you have to make to support the theory, not destroy it. And I think all of those assumptions are pretty hard to believe.

I voted for Confid over Looker because I thought Looker was joking.

Post 166 – What was the reason behind this vote,

Sanjay

?

I wasn't feeling that enthusiastic about my ConfidAnon vote so I figured I'd move it, and I wasn't getting exceptionally strong reads from anyone, and I thought it'd be nice to hear from brothernature.

[Sanjay]

And with that, I'm done and fully caught up ^.^

Vote brothernature

Don't think I am ignoring your grandmother's wisdom, but why aren't you voting for the person on top of your scumlist?

[Sanjay]

Also, thanks, Zazie, for giving this game a much needed kick in the pants.

[Sanjay]

Cool. I'm also still curious about why you asked people about how serious they were.

Apparently I was wrong about Looker and his theory, but for the most part I thought stuff was pretty clear.

[Sanjay]

Lulz is it really that hard to put all of that into one post instead of spamming up two pages? And yes, I'm a fan of Higurashi.

Post 169 – Why aren’t you discussing, while observing, brothernature? Also, noted that you showed right up after a player voted for you.

Like I said, I'm observing and lurking, just not posting. He asked where I was. I told him I was lurking.

You lurk and instead of giving your own intake, you ask for the opinion of the new guy? What’s up with that, brothernature?

Indeed I do.

At least he has posted content, something you haven't done since a while. How come?

Actually, I'm pretty sure I've never posted any content whatsoever.


And to Sanjay, I really don't like Cookie right now. He's posting all this random shit and distracting the town, making it harder for us to get stuff done. My random shit, however, is more so on topic, just in a jokingly way, most the time.

brothernature, if that's all you can come up with, I don't think your sitting and observing is really justified. Unless you explain to me how posting random shit and distracting the town is a scum-tell, you are basically telling me that after all the observing you have observed basically nothing.

When are you planning on posting your thoughts on the game, exactly? Is it a matter of piling votes on you? Because I'm sure there are a bunch of players that would be happy to oblige.

[Sanjay]

Looker, I hope you realize that having someone justify their actions with a formula isn't that much more satisfying than them justifying their actions with their gut. I love the idea that you are looking for patterns and trying to beat the system, but don't forget that you have to also convince us you aren't scum and convince us that the people you want lynched are scum.

[Sanjay]

I don't think thinking of Mafia as a waiting game is the best approach.

While you can't catch scum right off the bat, from your very first post you can affect the store of information the town has. Catching scum or getting favorable mislynches is just the payoff of lots of work affecting that store of information.

Tell me more of this formula of yours. You can be vague if talking about it ruins its value, but I definitely want to hear more.

[Sanjay]

I'm starting to think that maybe the reason brothernature isn't posting as much is because we aren't talking about brothernature's favorite topic of conversation.

Everyone! Have you ever noticed how pro-town brothernature is? He probably has the town win condition, don't you think?

[Sanjay]

I'm still not exactly sure about what delaying answering my question did, by the way.

Sanjay's Post 266 - I thought I might have found something but when they responded, it was evident that I hadn't. Coupled with the points you made against the assumption, it was pretty clear that i hadn't thought that one through. In short, I fucked up. O well, on to the next one. That sort of thing, y'know?

Tell me about what you thought you found and tell me about what was made so evident by the responses you read. Which responses?

[Sanjay]

You're going to be hard to get a read on, aren't you?

[Sanjay]

To answer your question, I'm not exactly sure what you mean.

[Sanjay]

I can see why they might be interesting, yes. Though for what it is worth I have never noticed anything especially telling about where the bandwagoned player puts their vote.

Go on...

[Sanjay]

I've heard some people say eagerness to get out of the RVS was a scumtell. I don't know if I necessarily buy it as a scumtell, but I thought it was worth asking about, especially because it didn't seem like Far_Cry had a lot to move out of the RVS with.

It's not. Going out of the RVS, means that real discussion will start. Letting the game move along further and giving a chance at finding scum. Games that drag out the RVS don't get discussion going. And if everybody keeps joking around, the RVS will only get dragged out further. In this case, a deadline will be very destructive.
tl;dr: Leaving the RVS asap is good, dragging it out may be fun, but bad for the game.

Interesting. But certainly making a big show of a desire to get out of the random voting stage is a bit scummy, don't you think?

This is the post right before Far_Cry made his post criticizing people for not being serious:

vote Idiotking Idiots hurt town.

By the way, can you claim? I mean, you're at L-6 now. You need to be careful and provide a defense.

@DeathRowKitty: Perhaps Sanjay found them so quickly because he knew them from the very beginning, in which case... he is indeed the fourth scum!

Plot twist!

Unvote

Vote: Looker

Most likely to have scum power role, yes.

If you stated that.... Why are you voting Looker, and not Sanjay?

Looker is likely Godfather; Sanjay merely a Goon.
Silly questions are silly...

@F

a

y_Cry: Why are you my worst nightmare?
@IKing: Do you think BigBear was being too serious in Post 46?

Well, I am your worst nightmare becuase I am your worst nightmare's worst nightmare's best friend's mother's uncle's sister's former roommate's father!

Either Far_Cry was crazy, or Far_Cry wasn't that serious about leaving the RVS either at that point. Yet somehow the very next time he posts he has a complete change of character.

What's the deal with this? He goes from joking around himself to being absolutely disgusted with the town, to the point that he personally insults nook. It strikes me as a bit artificial.

So perhaps eagerness to leave the RVS isn't a scumtell, but a professed eagerness to leave the RVS, especially in this context, is.

[Sanjay]

As for why I wasn't enthusiastic about the ConfidAnon vote, it didn't really seem like it was phasing him, no one else was jumping on and his defense was decent, so I didn't really see much use for it there.

[Sanjay]

Hm... I guess that is actually spelled "fazing".

[Sanjay]

Zazie, could you expound a bit on why you voted for brothernature?

[Sanjay]

Come on, ConfidAnon. We can't lynch everyone that posts like ZazieR.

[Sanjay]

Could you elaborate on what kind of a tell you feel appeal to emotion is and why?

It's an appeal to emotion alright.

But Confid, what was with those last two letters were? js? Are you labeling him as jester?

They are a web acronym that stands for "just saying."

By the way, ConfidAnon, please explain your thought process behind deciding that BigBear's question was worth answering but mine was not.

[Sanjay]

Could you elaborate on what kind of a tell you feel appeal to emotion is and why?

It's an appeal to emotion alright.

But Confid, what was with those last two letters were? js? Are you labeling him as jester?

They are a web acronym that stands for "just saying."

By the way, ConfidAnon, please explain your thought process behind deciding that BigBear's question was worth answering but mine was not.

This post might have been a little easy to miss, so I'm just gonna bump it for your, Confid.

[Sanjay]

Come on, ConfidAnon. We can't lynch everyone that posts like ZazieR.

Your reason for this post?

I want to keep everything from getting buried under a mountain of multi-posts and I thought throwing out empty threats would be a good way to do it.

[Sanjay]

Confid is dodging one of my questions? That's news to me.

I mean this wasn't the greatest answer in the world, but it's an answer.

[Sanjay]

@CA
You're really trying to stretch this jester thing. Any particular reason (besides dodging SJ's question)?

You are getting a little defensive here, DRK. What's the deal?

Do you really think there needs to be an ulterior motive to justify ConfidAnon's interpretation of the facts?

[Sanjay]

DRK, what did you think about the merits of my vote on ConfidAnon back on page 5?

[Sanjay]

[quote="DeathRowKitty"]I didn't think much of it at the time, since all he really did was say the theory wasn't bad, not that he believed it (and he even mentioned it would require BB to be playing a very weak scum game). Given CA's recent posts though, I think this gains a lot more merit.

If you don't mind, could you elaborate?

[Sanjay]

Meh, I'm not gonna restate the case again. I believe that you were the one who sparked the jester discussion,

you believe that you didn't and that nook did

. We'll agree to disagree.

If you actually believe the bolded, how do you still have a case on DRK?

[Sanjay]

No, it was perfectly clear.

You believe that DRK thinks that nook started the jester conversation, correct?

[Sanjay]

Isn't it amazing that as humans, we can have beliefs about the beliefs of others?

Many species do not come anywhere close to possessing this faculty.

[Sanjay]

I agree. It does look scummy.

[Sanjay]

Do you think that if DRK actually does believe that nook started the conversation about jesters then his reaction is unreasonable?

[Sanjay]

What has changed, ConfidAnon?

Why isn't the theory as strong as it was before?

[Sanjay]

Yeah, I don't really know why I'm still voting for you, when you aren't even second on my suspect list right now.

Unvote

Vote: ConfidAnon

[Sanjay]

Now that you've reminded me of who I was voting for, Looker, why don't you tell me who you were voting for and how happy you are with that vote right now.

[Sanjay]

Could we get a nook prod?

I'd love to have his input on this discussion.

[Sanjay]

Sorry, let me try that again:

Could we get a nook prod, please?

Where are my manners?

[Sanjay]

ConfidAnon:

Could you state your case against DRK as you now understand it?

[Sanjay]

It's more lazy than scummy IMO.

[Sanjay]

Well, whether you are scum or town, brothernature, that's real decent of you to post explaining yourself after requesting replacement. I wish that was done more.

Sorry about your computer and sorry we don't get to play with you anymore.

I'm a little confused though why you don't feel up to the task of a full game though.

[Sanjay]

What would you like to hear from me, ZazieR?

[Sanjay]

So does that mean the people voting brother can...um...transfer over to Confid...?

What's the deal with this post, Looker?

[Sanjay]

Kreriov: do we have a deadline to worry about?[/url]

[Sanjay]

Whoops, I fail at tags.

Kreriov: do we have a deadline to worry about?

[Sanjay]

Sanjay - Was working under the assumption that you and Confid are town
DJ - Because I doubt Zaz, Peabody, and Shrine are all scum
Cookie - OR - BigBear - I'm leaning town on Nook & Cydonia.

So sorry guys but working off limited resources, including time, will try to actually benefit the site

Could you point out when I did this?

[Sanjay]

You were working under the assumption that me and Confid are town?

And that's why you think I'm mafia?

[Sanjay]

Especially because this is a generally pretty suspicious town.

Cookie, if you are town you can do a lot better.

[Sanjay]

Dang, that's a bummer.

[Sanjay]

Guess you gotta type up that response, DRK.

[Sanjay]

Well, as I recall, the first time the issue came up I thought the way ConfidAnon pursued the case was kind of weird and DRK didn't respond in the most townish way.

I don't know what I think of the original evidence. I didn't think it was that scummy.

I guess I need to look at it again. I've kind of been ignoring the thread for a little bit waiting for the replacements to catch up and get going with their opinions. Since that has started to happen I guess I can stop.

[Sanjay]

Nook initiated jester dialogue too, KoC. You think nook is scummy too, right?

[Sanjay]

Didn't really feel like anyone else was jumpin' on the bandwagon and I sort of lost my passion for it given Confid's responses.

There are other ways to get a player to participate, but nothing works quite as effectively as a nice, old-fashioned vote to the head.

Read faster.

[Sanjay]

Hey, don_johnson, I have a request.

Could you link to the first post in every one of these post recap sessions? That would make it more convenient to follow along.

Also, to answer your question, I didn't really follow it up because I lost my passion for the argument. I just sort of made a mental note to keep my eye on Confid, which actually didn't do very much because I kind of have one of those on everyone (this is a kind of scummy seeming town).

[Sanjay]

Well, in case you change your mind, linking is very easy:

Just click the little page icon to the left of each post's date. That gives you a direct link to any individual post.

Then it is as easy as this:

Post 664

[Sanjay]

Which looks like this:

Post 664

[Sanjay]

I meant this town is scummy seeming.

The only one I really ever had a strong town read on was DRK but I've since lost it.

Once Halloween weekend is over I'm going to be rereading this thread. Hopefully I can get stronger reads then and maybe even a few town reads.

I know they aren't the most important thing in scumhunting but I just love them so.

[Sanjay]

Hi, Confid! Am I still voting for you?

[Sanjay]

Furry, welcome to the game.

Looker, I don't have written scumlists. At the time Confid was my top suspect. Then brothernature.

Why didn't you ask for a list at the time? I could have answered you much better. Just curious about it now?

[Sanjay]

Hey, BC.

You replace in?

[Sanjay]

The purple part's funny to me in an off-beat kind of way.

Move to CA - I'm currently under the assumption that both CA and DRK are town.
Move to DJ - I don't know. DJ seems to be a great town target to me, because

town are on his wagon already

so you wouldn't look scummy if he flipped town. I think I'll stick with KoC.

What do you mean by the italicized? I would imagine there are town on every wagon. What makes the DJ wagon special?

Also, so psyched that archaebob is here.

[Sanjay]

Looker, do you have town reads on ZazieR, Shrinehme and Raskol?

If so, tell us about why.

[Sanjay]

The main reason I was voting for ConfidAnon was suspicious scumhunting:

A few times, ConfidAnon sort of threw around some wiki tells, like here and here and here. Unless pressed he doesn't actually explain why in the specific instance he thinks it is scummy. I think it could be scum trying to make other people look scummy without actually committing strongly to positions.

Also, a lot of his case against DRK is silly. DRK mentioned jesters before nook, but DRK did not start a jester discussion. DRK's answer was reasonable given that, and though this was most of the basis for CA's case, he has not abandoned it. This drew my attention because I feel like scum might be more inclined to hold on to bad cases, because they have less of a feel for what are good cases because they aren't making genuine cases.

I don't think making the initial case against DRK is scummy. I can definitely see why town would do it. But I can't for the life of me understand why it is a good case.

What first caught my attention was this, which I still don't like. Seems kind of like fence-sitting right now.

I'm not really positive I want the vote on him right now though. A lot of the reasons I think Confid is scum could be written off to personal style.

I'm kind of inclined to switch my vote to DJ if anyone, though I'll re-read him to see if that is justified.

[Sanjay]

Raskol, why aren't you feeling like riding the DJ train anymore?

[Sanjay]

Because this day SUCKS.

[Sanjay]

Oh, also the deadline is less than a week away so it's not like we have a choice about it anyway.

[Sanjay]

don_johnson, seriously. Write up a case on someone.

This is not a case. This is noise.

[Sanjay]

Here's my opinions on the big three wagon candidates:

DeathRowKitty: I have a town read on him. He's an active player. I'm opposed to his lynch.
ConfidAnon: I have a bunch of reasons why I think ConfidAnon's play is scummy but my gut read on him is neutral.

Unvote

don_johnson: I thought brothernature was acting a bit like lurkerscum and don_johnson could have caught up in a much more pro-town manner, but I can't say I'm enthusiastic about this wagon either.

So I agree with what Raskol is doing in so far as looking at other wagons. I'm gonna look more at ZazieR's posts and see if anything sticks out to me.

If you feel really strongly about your wagon, I feel pretty easily persuadable right now! Persuade away!

archaebob, this isn't the time to play close to the chest. If you've got a reason to vote Looker please do share it.

[Sanjay]

Mod: that unvote in my last post might have been a little hard to see. Sorry about that.

[Sanjay]

Let's lynch KoC!

Vote: Knight of Cydonia

Two different players, barely any decent scumhunting.

[Sanjay]

By the way, if I haven't said this already, I am going to join Team Vote Practically Anywhere To Keep DRK From Being Lynched.

I have absolutely no respect for the reasons of half the people on that wagon.

[Sanjay]

About time you had some reasons.

[Sanjay]

Thought experiment:

I call my friend and ask him if he would like to order pizza.
My friend responds that his phone was garbled and he doesn't understand what I said.
Someone else orders a pizza.

Question: WHO ORDERED A PIZZA?

If you are voting for DRK based on him starting the jester discussion, explain one of the following:

1) How the thought experiment doesn't mirror what happened (Starting here, for your convenience)
2) How, in the thought experiment, I ordered pizza.
3) How you suck so bad at logic and/or reading

Otherwise, explain the other reasons for your vote. In this analogy it would be like DRK microwaving some bagel bites.

When you have scumtells on a bagel, you can have scumtells anytime.

[Sanjay]

Nook initiated jester dialogue too, KoC. You think nook is scummy too, right?

Here's a question KoC hasn't answered that I'd really like to be answered. If BigBear could answer it as well, that would be real solid.

[Sanjay]

Confid, that's not a flaw. Nobody understood what DRK was talking about. At the very least, nook didn't.

nook quite independently mentioned jesters, I reacted to it, and that started the jester discussion.

If you are really reading that nook post and think that nook started talking about jesters BECAUSE of DRK, then please explain number 3.

Confid, I don't really have a problem with your DRK vote. But you might want to check the rest of the people supporting that wagon, and see if their reasoning makes sense to you.

Ask, for instance, why if they have such a big problem with talking about jesters they aren't voting Furry/nook?

Ask if their votes look well-reasoned or opportunistic.

[Sanjay]

Better answer some BigBear questions before they get buried under a mountain of ZazieR:

@ Sanjay[/b] The top three wagons, you don't find any of them scummy, why do you find KoC scummy? What has he done?

It's less about how KoC is scummy and what he has done and more about what he hasn't done. Scumhunt worth a lick. Without very strong reads, I just want to get someone lynched I don't think would be worth as much.

I am reconsidering it though, both because it doesn't seem like anyone else is up for it, and also because KoC hasn't interacted with very many players so KoC flipping won't be nearly as interesting as some other players (like you, like ZazieR).

-Sanjay, why are you asking for town reads? (from a specific player?)
-Noted the good response by looker.

I was trying to figure out why Looker said town were on the DJ wagon already. It seemed like kind of a weird thing to say. Her reason given was that nobody had anything but town reads on the people on the DJ wagon, which doesn't seem like enough of a reason.

If she herself didn't have a town read on them, I would think it would be very weird.

What were you implying here, BigBear? I think I know what you were trying to imply, and I would love for you to unpack it so I can talk about what a silly accusation it is in this case.

[Sanjay]

I don't like how Furry mentioned (I think it was him) that the others are letting the wagon push into a deadline lynch.

Do you not like how Furry mentioned it or do you not like that it is happening?

If you don't like how Furry mentioned it, why?

[Sanjay]

I understood what DRK was talking about . . . maybe I just assumed that everyone else did too.

This line, by the way, diminishes greatly the suspicion of Confid I had.

I thought I had laid all this out before and for the life of me I couldn't understand why in the world Confid was still voting for DRK.

I'm kind of sad to see the Confid wagon go because I was on it so long, but Furry, are you still feeling this wagon?

[Sanjay]

Sounds like you have a crisis of imagination there, archaebob.

[Sanjay]

In what way were things made clearer to you, Knight of Cydonia?

[Sanjay]

I'd rather Don not full-claim right now and I'd rather not lynch him. If he is town, he is taking a calculated risk that, if he lives, his claim will be less believable in the future compared to the present. As long as he understand's the risk, I'm fine with him not full-claiming.

Though the soft claim was a pretty dumb move.

[Sanjay]

Seriously, Raskol?

I'd really rather you put your vote somewhere before deadline.

[Sanjay]

Can you show that Peabody was convinced Far_Cry was scum, Furry? He didn't even vote for him.

[Sanjay]

Here's why I'm voting for KoC:

*No scumhunting so not a very costly lynch.
*Vote for DRK was very lazy and didn't seem that well thought out.
*Unexplained unvote of DRK is suspicious.

The initial vote was based on just those two bullets, so as you can imagine I'm not super enthusiastic about the vote.

Thing is I'm not super moved by your case against Raskol or Raskol's case against don_johnson or ZazieR. Ugh.

I'm not going to be online Tuesday night so I got to decide where to put my vote pretty soon. KoC is probably the wrong choice because that wouldn't really be as interesting as other lynches.

[Sanjay]

Why were you reluctant to full-claim, don_johnson?

[Sanjay]

Also, who told Looker about busing?

[Sanjay]

Also, who told Looker about busing?

Are you saying this because I'm wrong or are you saying this because I'm right, because I'm hoping you're saying this because I'm right.

I'm saying it because, as I recall, your ideas about who is scum have been based on some pretty silly assumptions like "X must be town because X is voting for Y, and I think Y is mafia".

If that's a strawman of your theories I apologize, but sometimes it feels like that.

So I wasn't saying it because you are wrong or right. I was saying it because I was impressed with the next evolution of Looker scumhunting.

Though if it helps you out, you are wrong.

[Sanjay]

The results of a partial BigBear reread:

BigBear makes several votes to attract attention and perhaps generate discussion. He has a self-vote, a no lynch vote, and a vote for Shrineme right after Looker suggests BigBear voted No Lynch to protect Shrineme. The obvious concern is "Is BigBear scum trying to appear attention seeking so people think he is town?" When Shrinehme brings it up and Looker questions BigBear about it, this is the response:

BigBear might me doing this on purpose. It's a possible idea that he is scum that does some things that are SO terrible that people think he's not scum. A possible reverse psychology strategy.

Reverse psychology? Are you implying WIFOM? If so...

So scummy that i can't be scum? This isn't Zwet-mafia. No, I'm not really implying Wifom. And i don't even understand psychology that much, what makes you think that I know how to perfect reverse psychology?

@BigBear: Were these your intentions? WIFOM? Can you refute these allegations?

What? To create anarchy and Wifom? No I did not intend that. I don't see how WIFOM at this point in the game really helps the town. However, you kids bringing up that it must be Wifom make me uneasy. Because you're so hasty to bring that thought or idea up. Maybe I truly wanted night to begin. Maybe I wanted to be lynched. Maybe I wanted no lynch. The truth is, long and active day ones are very profitable, and me creating this type of discussion is priceless.

I don't understand psychology that much, how could I perfect reverse psychology??? What? This is an oddly evasive answer. Also, this thing about being uneasy about people bringing up WIFOM is garbage. When someone does something blatantly anti-town, that's the first thing you have to think about. Plus this "maybe I wanted no lynch" thing is especially garbage, because he says different IN THE SAME POST:

Who had the most votes when BigBear decided to go no lynch?

I'm gonna shoot down that theory of... whose ever it was. I chose to vote no lynch, to generate discussion. Look it worked. I mostly wanted to get out of the RVS. Looks like we made it yay!

For someone that dislikes jester speculation enough to policy vote about it post 214 is surprising:

I think lynching the jester is a bad idea. and if there really is a jester, which I doubt, i think they should be either vig'd or night killed. Bringing up the idea of a jester, is actually scummy, I forget who brought it up, but it's scummy.

Why the heck would you suggest not lynching a jester? That's exactly the attitude that makes jester speculation scummy.

[Sanjay]

Unvote

Eh, minor scummy vibes'll have to do it for me.

Let's do this. BigBearWagon assemble.

Vote: BigBear

I suggest we don't lynch an uncounterclaimed cop day one unless they are super duper scummy. I don't think don_johnson qualifies. I hope BigBear responds to my concerns, or better yet provides me with a better person to want a wagon on than him.

[Sanjay]

Wow, DRK, how did you know?

[Sanjay]

The biggest tragedy is that since don_johnson flipped scum you can't just ignore his useless ramblings.

Sorry about the bait and switch. Thanks so much for replacing in.

[Sanjay]

You seem pretty comfortable attacking my attacker, BigBear.

[Sanjay]

Let's make this a real wagon.

Vote: DeathRowKitty

DRK, what exactly didn't you like about ConfidAnon's reaction to Don's claim?

[Sanjay]

Well, you are trading answering one question now for two questions later. If you are okay with that, I'm okay with that.

[Sanjay]

Unvote

I agree with Furry. The lateness of his shift to DJ was eye catching, but his explanation is good enough and I suppose if DRK did notice a cop slip on CA as mafia he wouldn't have mentioned it in thread (I think mentioning it in thread probably wasn't the right move, but hey, what are you going to do).

Furry, can you show us any other games where you disbelieve cop claims automatically just because you don't like the role?

[Sanjay]

Vote: BigBear

I've really been going ??? about post 1023.

Looker makes a perfectly normal post about how she wasn't planning on reading anything into the lack of her being nightkilled, and BigBear goes all "maybe you are scum, Looker", which seems like a sort of chainsaw defense of me.

Which is weird. You don't chainsaw defend the people you should be suspicious of. And BigBear more than anyone should be suspicious of me. I started up a bandwagon on him moving pressure away from known scum. And somehow, when Looker is like "Yeah, vote Sanjay" BigBear goes after her?

QUESTION MARK QUESTION MARK QUESTION MARK

[Sanjay]

It's not a chainsaw exactly.

It's just that the comment seemed indicative to me of an attitude that didn't become a townie who just had someone lead a bandwagon onto him away from a known gang banger.

Are you picking up what I am dropping down, Furry?

[Sanjay]

I am calling him suspicious because he isn't suspicious of me.

[Sanjay]

As far as your candidate goes, by the way, Raskol has a lot of stuff he has to answer about, but the fact that he is being replaced right now and can't answer sort of puts the town in a bind.

I have a feeling we aren't both right though.

[Sanjay]

Yeah, I'm okay with that.

Unvote

Vote: Raskol

DRK, you in?

[Sanjay]

Feels like Raskol is a big LyALu fan. Disagree on principle with a wagon on someone being replaced, though, and still think there's more to DRK's slip. Not voting at deadline isn't a scumtell, it's a nulltell on a lazy player who couldn't be arsed to read up.

Picking BB over me based on wagon size suggests equal suspicion, just wanted one of us lynched, not too bothered who

. But then, that ain't exactly good either. Hrm.
Waiting to see who replaces, what excuses they got.

What are you talking about with the bolded?

Also, LyALu?

[Sanjay]

Why did you mention it in this context?

In the context of things that are scummy about Raskol but don't bother you?

[Sanjay]

What's scummy about choosing BigBear over you?

[Sanjay]

archaebob, I like the sentiment, but that approach probably won't work, especially since Zazie hasn't posted since the 8th.

Kreriov, I don't suppose we could trouble you for one more replacement?

[Sanjay]

Sorry I didn't comment on your poem, Looker. It was lovely.

The start of the eleventh line was a little awkward though. Couldn't it have just been "Understand, I hope"?

I'm thinking about moving my vote. knives is okay with me for now. I'm sure your theory will adapt though.

Unvote

havingfitz, are there any posts in particular that make you think that BigBear is scum based on dj's ISO?

[Sanjay]

No, my opinion is about the same as before.

Furry has opinions that seem quite believable as town which I find persuasive and KoC is relatively high on my suspect list.

I haven't changed my mind on Eleven exactly. I just don't want to be voting for Eleven right now.

[Sanjay]

The thing is, Looker, you're probably not going to get support to your wagon the way you are playing right now. People with a mafia win condition have been mafia all game. Looking at the Don_Johnson lynch is definitely a great start, but if you want to really push the lynch, you have to look at the rest of the game too.

See if you can find stuff that confirms your suspicions. Make sure you don't see stuff that diminishes your suspicions. Present that to the town. Or you could just demand people get on your wagon and hope for the best. Either way, you'll be driving a bandwagon in no time. Choo chooo!

Are you suspicious of KoC, Furry and Eleven based on the fact that Furry was late to the DJ lynch and KoC and Eleven weren't on it? If so, why aren't you suspicious of BigBear and archaebob?

[Sanjay]

That's not really the case I was asking for, Looker. I knew and I presume everyone else knew you were voting me for those reasons.

I'm going back to doing this:

Vote BigBear

BigBear, I'd like you to comment on my day one post against you and the reasons I stated for voting for you day one.

Also, if you could comment on what you thought about DRK's posts so far as justifying his late joining of the DJ wagon, that would be solid.

[Sanjay]

Why I tried to start up a BigBear wagon at deadline yesterday:

DJ's absolutely horrible catch-up routine was obviously pretty anti-town, but I didn't really see it coming from scum. And since he had caught up and I figured he'd be a better poster today. I felt like there was pretty definitely scum on the DRK wagon and BigBear and KoC were my top suspects of those because their DRK votes were just so lazy.

I reread the thread focusing on those two, and BigBear seemed like a good lynch candidate.

Why am I voting for BigBear now and why should you come on to the BigBear wagon?

1. His DRK vote was so ridiculous.
2. He was not in on the DJ lynch in any meaningful way.
3. He was in on the DJ lynch in a totally unmeaningful way.
4. He is Mr. Lurky McLurkerson today

[Sanjay]

Looker, what was this about:

And now I want to vote Eleven again. ::sigh:: Curse this unnatural urge to distinguish myself from the rest of you sheeple!!!

Also, what is your opinion of BigBear?

Oh, I don't know if I answered your question about Furry. I'd really rather not lynch Furry today. Why do you ask?

[Sanjay]

Ha ha, welcome to the game, BigBear. Thanks for replacing in.

If you thought my day one case against you was extremely scummy, why are you just voting for me now?

Here's the timeline I see:

I post a case against BigBear that BigBear considers "very scummy".
I suggest people vote for BigBear instead of DJ.
DJ flips scum.
BigBear votes DRK and ignores me.

What?

Also, bullshit on that case being "very scummy". Why? Because it was stuff that happened early in the game? That's real funny for someone who was trying to policy lynch DRK yesterday because of jester speculation on page 8. I think your stance as a jester speculation policy lyncher is totally wacky given how freely you yourself talked about jesters, and I don't think because it was early in the game you get to just magically wave it off.

The reason I didn't bring up that stuff at the time is because I didn't notice it as weird at the time. I didn't want to lynch DJ after he caught up, especially after he claimed power role, so I was looking for other lynch options.

Why didn't you talk about that very scummy post until now? Did you miss it or something?

[Sanjay]

Also, BigBear, I thought I made it clear why I thought you were suspicious for attacking my attacker. Because I don't see town doing it. Why are you having such trouble wrapping your head around that concept?

I probably was reading a bit into that post, but the fact remains that this offense against me is coming much later than I would expect from town.

I am calling him suspicious because he isn't suspicious of me.

Are you expecting me to vote you or something?

This smells of baiting.

I guess I might as well say something Sanjay, - Are you really open to any wagon other than yours?

Could you clarify this? The tone is as if you discovered some amazing scumslip or something, but I really don't see what is remotely suspicious about me trying to attract players to a wagon I'm supporting.

[Sanjay]

That's kind of a stretch, isn't it?

[Sanjay]

I didn't take a stand on the DRK vs. ConfidAnon fight? That's news to me.

[Sanjay]

As for not wanting the full claim, I figured today if DJ was alive he would have to answer both what his night actions were and why he didn't full claim. If he didn't have a good reason, swell, we lynch him.

I can see reasons why a town power might want to soft claim instead of full claim.

[Sanjay]

Huh.

I thought DRK was being a bit overly defensive but more than that I really didn't understand why ConfidAnon was being so unreasonable. And given that, DRK's defensiveness seemed justifiable. That opinion of the events didn't really lend itself to me taking a strong stance.

My reads yesterday were murky. Call that fence sitting if you want, but it was hard day 1 to get strong reads on people. With a Confid and DJ flipping it is better, but this has not been a fun environment to scumhunt in.

I didn't really see the great benefit of a full claim rather than a soft claim. Sure, it becomes a little easier to fake claim if you happen to hit town power, but more likely that's not going to happen. And soft claiming can mess with the mafia's heads.

And I'm inclined to let claimed cops live, especially day 1. They are relatively easy roles to scrutinize and on day one you aren't really going to have much to grill them on.

DJ's reasons for soft claiming weren't the best, but I could believe he had them from town.

[Sanjay]

Basically I just thought he was an idiot.

[Sanjay]

When would you say you started to suspect me, semioldguy?

[Sanjay]

Go for it.

[Sanjay]

What do you think about the other wagons, Mr. Knives?

Are you a one suspect at a time kind of guy or are there other players who've caught your fancy?

[Sanjay]

Aw shucks, you sure know how to make a guy feel special.

Remind me again why you don't like BigBear as a lynch candidate? Is it just because I suspect him?

You asked about a Furry lynch earlier today. Is that something you are interested in?

[Sanjay]

(It is not something I am interested in, by the way. I don't remember if I answered that.)

[Sanjay]

Furry, here's how I feel about EKT:

I was pretty indifferent towards Peabody.

I felt like Raskol was pretty townish up until his weirdo unvote.

I can't make sense of that unvote at all and Raskol doesn't look good given DJ's flip.

Mr. Knives has seemed okay so far. I was fine trying to call together a bandwagon on Raskol pre-replacement, but once EKT came in I figured the best thing to do would be to unvote and give him some space to see what he does.

Nothing he has done so far as made me more enthusiastic about his lynch. I guess I'm still open to it as a deadline thing but I'd prefer KoC.

------

archaebob, what's your read on me?

[Sanjay]

BigBear was a fan of KoC avoiding the question for no reason, as I recall.

I think that's even weirder than KoC's question dodging.

But speaking of question dodging, KoC, did you ever get back to post 1072?

[Sanjay]

By the way, I'm totally down with archaebob being under some fire for his opinion, if only because I'm little taken aback with him not being totally down to lynch me. He knows why.

[Sanjay]

Looker, Big Bear's absence from the thread is totally understandable given the circumstances, but until he comes back I see no reason to move my vote.

What don't you like about the BigBear wagon, Looker?

---

If KoC is scum, I'm not really sure who the third scumbuddy is. I really like this BigBear vote and everything, but as much as I didn't like the wagon, I'd be kind of surprised if

everyone

on the DRK wagon besides ConfidAnon ended up being scum. archaebob and Knives are doing some pretty good distancing right now, so I'd be inclined to think not them. I'd have to dig a little low in my scumlist to find someone.

---

KoC, what is with the attitude?

[Sanjay]

Let's do this quote war style:

Ha ha, welcome to the game, BigBear. Thanks for replacing in.

If you thought my day one case against you was extremely scummy, why are you just voting for me now?

Because when I was MIA for a while it was mostly from the beginning of day two, I hadn't posted much of anything, so i figured i'd review some end of day 1 activities. Also at the beginning of Day 2, I was suspicious of DRK for his end of D1 activities.

Here's the timeline I see:

I post a case against BigBear that BigBear considers "very scummy".
I suggest people vote for BigBear instead of DJ.
DJ flips scum.
BigBear votes DRK and ignores me.


What?

Your time-line is off. I didn't even look at your case against me until after I voted DRK.

By end of D1 activities you mean what? The last ten posts before the lynch scene? How was my day 1 case against you not a end of day 1 activity? How did you miss it?

Also, bullshit on that case being "very scummy". Why? Because it was stuff that happened early in the game? That's real funny for someone who was trying to policy lynch DRK yesterday because of jester speculation on page 8. I think your stance as a jester speculation policy lyncher is totally wacky given how freely you yourself talked about jesters, and I don't think because it was early in the game you get to just magically wave it off.

When I "Freely" talked about jesters it was mainly me saying that we should lynch players that suggest jesters, and me saying that we should lynch DRK for bringing up jesters. Every time someone brought up the idea of a jester in a game that I have played, they were scum. I'm just saying.

This doesn't answer the main point. What is so scummy about that case? I don't see it at all.

Also, if you policy lynch people for jester speculation, why haven't you given Furry any trouble? Bagel bites, man. Nook did just as much jester speculation as DRK did.

The reason I didn't bring up that stuff at the time is because I didn't notice it as weird at the time. I didn't want to lynch DJ after he caught up, especially after he claimed power role, so I was looking for other lynch options.

So what made me stand out as opposed to other players?

I believe I explained this. I thought the DRK wagon was a good place to look because everyone on it was ridiculous, and your posts seemed scummier than KoC's.

Why didn't you talk about that very scummy post until now? Did you miss it or something?

See above.

Also, BigBear, I thought I made it clear why I thought you were suspicious for attacking my attacker. Because I don't see town doing it. Why are you having such trouble wrapping your head around that concept?

I'm playing rather reckless this game, in that i'm not really keeping track of some of my previous actions. Mainly because I've been so absent, and it's a rather long game.

I probably was reading a bit into that post, but the fact remains that this offense against me is coming much later than I would expect from town.

So because I didn't attack you earlier for this, it seems anti-town? Hope fully my above post explains this. I'll say it again I guess, I was rather lurking, and hadn't paid much attention to this game. Because of that, i hadn't gotten to anyone's posts really. yours stood out to me. It seemed like you wanted to distract the DJ wagon.

I didn't say it seemed anti-town. I said it was unlikely to come from town. You are still having trouble with this. I understand your explanation now, but surely you understand mine too, right? It seems like you don't because you are still acting like there is something wrong with it.

I am calling him suspicious because he isn't suspicious of me.

Are you expecting me to vote you or something?

This smells of baiting.

I guess I might as well say something Sanjay, - Are you really open to any wagon other than yours?

Could you clarify this? The tone is as if you discovered some amazing scumslip or something, but I really don't see what is remotely suspicious about me trying to attract players to a wagon I'm supporting.

It felt as if you wanted me to vote you, and because I didn't vote you, you became suspicious of me. Since I thought your case against me at the end of D1, you would presume that I would vote you for it at the beginning of D2, right? Well since I didn't actually look at that post until mid day, that idea of yours is false. And since you would have expected me to vote you, and I didn't, you called me suspicious. It just feels as if your initial case was baiting me to vote you, either at the end of day 1, or the beginning of day 2.

Uh, so because I incorrectly assumed that you actually read the thread, somehow I'm in the wrong?

It's not baiting. It's INCORRECTLY ASSUMING YOU AREN'T TERRIBLE.

Also, what did that have to do with the post you linked to?

I can see reasons why a town power might want to soft claim instead of full claim.

I disagree, a "town" player soft claiming and refusing to full claim at L-1/L-2 is scummy in my eyes.

That's not a disagreement. That's an irrelevant statement to my point. Easy mistake, I know. How does you thinking that conflict with me seeing reasons why a town power might want to soft claim? Hint: It doesn't.

I can see reasons why a town power might not want to full claim, because if they actually are town power, it only really helps the mafia. I guess general best practice is for town power to full claim, but that doesn't change the fact that I understood the perspective DJ was faking.

Basically I just thought he was an idiot.

Then why did you look at me as another lynch candidate?

Because being an idiot isn't a scumtell and I like letting power roles live because they are easy to scrutinize. Damn that was an easy question.

BigBear was a fan of KoC avoiding the question for no reason, as I recall.

I think that's even weirder than KoC's question dodging.

But speaking of question dodging, KoC, did you ever get back to post 1072?

I'm a fan of gambits in general.

So you probably have some insight into what KoC is trying to pull here, right? We are all kind of in the dark about this so if you want to explain that one, that would be solid.

Is question dodging for no reason a gambit now?

By the way, I'm totally down with archaebob being under some fire for his opinion, if only because I'm little taken aback with him not being totally down to lynch me. He knows why.

Why do you want everyone to be suspicious of you? This reminds me of DTM self voting and putting a case against himself at the beginning of day 2 of Battle Mafia. hmm....

Just like town-BigBear, I feel like archaebob has special reason to mistrust me. I hardly think two people constitute everyone.

@ Sanjay
- What'd holding you up on BigBear? Why don't you vote KoC like everyone else?

- Are you not voting Eleven right now because you don't want anymore votes on KoC to compensate for your

insurgency

?

I guess those two could be put together if either flipped scum.

Really and truly? Do you really think my not moving my vote from you was unjustified in the slightest? You hadn't posted a response to anything I said.

I'll post a TLDR version of this post in my next post.

[Sanjay]

Bulletpoints:

I don't see how you missed my case initially and it feels like you decided it was super scummy after the fact.

I don't see why it is super scummy.

I don't understand your support of KoC's question dodging. (Also, how has KoC been anti-town? I thought you were a fan of this?)

Beyond making a wagon against you that distracted from the DJ wagon, I think your case against me sucks.

[Sanjay]

Re: point 2:

Don't be an ass. Explain why it is scummy.

Re: point 1:

Did you miss it entirely? Did you not read page 40? Did you not see page 40 on day 1?

You are either scum or really really ridiculous town, BigBear.

[Sanjay]

I wasn't actually reading the thread, but I still thought it was a good idea for me to get in there and hammer DJ once it became clear he was going to be the day's lynch.

How did I know? MAGIC.

[Sanjay]

I wasn't actually reading the thread, but I still thought it was a good idea for me to get in there and hammer DJ once it became clear he was going to be the day's lynch.

How did I know? MAGIC.

I am bashing you for this now.

Get some sleep. We'll talk tomorrow.

[Sanjay]

Was your point that you are scum?

I don't know because I only read pages that have lynch scenes on them.

[Sanjay]

You were actively lurking but not reading the thread?

[Sanjay]

How did you both know that DJ was the player to hammer AND miss my case against you until I pointed it out on D2?

[Sanjay]

Because a week is so long to remember that someone tried to vote for you for extremely scummy reasons.

Why even vote? Because DRK asked you to? The deadline lynch rules made your vote entirely irrelevant.

Besides, page 41 is a really wacky page. You are telling me that reading that didn't make you the least bit curious to look back a page to see how we came to that?

This all just seems so implausible, BigBear.

[Sanjay]

If you had brought this up a week ago, you'd have a relatively good case against me that would happen to be wrong. I wouldn't be suspicious of you for that. I really don't see what is inherently scummy about my day 1 post against you as you implied, but duh duh duh, I've been over this a thousand million times that I wouldn't be suspicious of you if you had come out of the gate swinging at me.

[Sanjay]

Don't worry, we all have our regrets.

[Sanjay]

I think if you don't have any strong scum reads lynching to get a good environment is a good play. But passing up a strong scum read because they are a good active poster, while it might have helped you in Newbie 846, is not always the right play.

As for KoC, my day 1 reread made me less inclined to push a lynch his way, and while we disagree on our reads on DRK, I can see where he is coming from with it. General town opinion (that DRK is likely scum, that Knives is obv scum and should be lynched) has gone against KoC and that is the best reasoning I can come up with for his anti-town reaction. WIFOM thought it may be, what scum responds to accusations of being unhelpful with "Oh yeah, well screw you town, I'm going home"? Frustrated town makes more sense to me.

If KoC continues to be unhelpful AND I had to jump on a KoC wagon to save myself, I might vote KoC, but there is a handful of players I'd rather see lynched (BigBear, ElevenKnives, you, Looker) and that really is a pretty big handful.

[Sanjay]

I'd be happy to respond to specific questions you had a problem with, but in general, most of my questions did not result in strong reads so I wasn't inclined to strong follow-up.

[Sanjay]

semioldguy, do you want to respond to anything I've said in my defense?

[Sanjay]

Post 1178, Post 1179 and, most recently, 1272

Are you voting for me in spite of my explanation of my behavior? Because of it? Should I end everything with a question mark from now on to better get you to respond to it?

[Sanjay]

semioldguy, I was kind of assuming you were holding off your vote previously because you wanted to look at other people first. Was that assumption incorrect?

[Sanjay]

Looker, the reason I added you to the list is you are basically unreadable. If I can't lynch a scummy read, I'd rather lynch someone I can't read than someone I feel like I can.

[Sanjay]

So, looking at other people...

How did that go?

[Sanjay]

(Looker, I'll respond to your post in a sec, I just wanted to do that little conversational tone post with semioldguy just now and tacking on a read of you to the end of that would have ruined it)

[Sanjay]

Here is my read on you, Looker:

In the other games I've seen you in, you've played so zany and wacky and so clearly didn't give a damn that you were pretty obviously town. Newbie 837 (in which you were hilarious) is a good example. I don't really see that this game. This is not a scumtell by any means. I can definitely see how, as town, you could be playing the way you do. You do seem to get mislynched a lot.

So in that regard, I have a null read on you.

Day one, you were basically following a formula that nobody but you understood, that pretty much allowed you to vote for anyone you wanted without understandable justification. Is that a scumtell? For you, no, because I find your play believable as town. However, it leaves me uneasy, because if you are scum, it is very good for you. Day two, similarly, I feel like you have been ignoring a pretty good case on BigBear based on your formula, and if you are scum, that's pretty nice.

Playing in a way that would benefit scum is not actually a scumtell if I can see it coming from you as town. Which I can. But it still makes me pretty uneasy. So in that regard, I have a null read on you too.

There is one thing that is a little scummy but it has more to do with something DJ posted than something you posted. When you voted for him, he asked you to unvote with little or no explanation. You specifically. That's a little strange, just because you were acting confident in his scumminess, so why even ask?

That said, it is pretty clear that DJ was intent on going down pretty hard on the town and just WIFOM everything to hell since he was getting lynched anyway. So I'm really not very inclined to act on this. Again, null tell.

That's a little bit on why I'm having a tough time reading you.

[Sanjay]

The difference between DJ's screw you attitude and KoC's is timing. DJ's came after his lynch was probably coming through and it didn't matter. KoC's came at a time when everyone was like "oh, there's a deadline coming up, I wonder who we should lynch". Seems like a ridiculously bad time for mafia to do that. I guess it could be a WIFOMy thing, but it seems pretty darn risky, especially with a day one scum lynch.

Basically this post is why I'm okay about KoC's jester vote.

Here's what I don't like about BigBear's defense:

*I think I have a good case against him and it seems like he is acting like I don't.
*Also, he brought up my scumminess as if it had anything to do with my case against him here.

[Sanjay]

BigBear, do you think the day 1 case itself against you is scummy, or do you just consider it scummy given the context?

[Sanjay]

I guess I'm never taking a life lesson from BigBear.

[Sanjay]

BigBear.

Seriously.

Get this through your head.

I WAS TRYING TO DERAIL THE DJ WAGON. I WAS TRYING TO GET YOU LYNCHED INSTEAD OF DJ.

I wasn't in the least bit coy about this on day 1. Maybe you are just reading the thread now so all of a sudden that's a big discovery, but you are acting like you are accusing me of something I'm denying. Given the soft-claim, and then given the full claim, I wanted to let DJ live through the night and I wanted to lynch someone else.

The fact that

you

wouldn't soft-claim is absolutely irrelevant. The only thing that is relevant is how likely it is that, on day 1, town-Sanjay wouldn't think the soft-claim was scummy.

The reason I was bringing up old stuff was for two reasons. One, I was rereading the thread looking for new stuff, because I wanted to find someone to lynch besides the people I really had in my sights all day. Two, some of the stuff, like your jester vote, looked bad considering how totally comfortable you were with jester speculation. The DRK wagon was ridiculous because I felt like all the votes on it were lazy and easy.

THIS is my defense. The stuff about me thinking you are scum has nothing to do with my defense against your posts. Sure, if you end up flipping scum I'm not going to look so bad anymore, but my defense is pretty much "I made a bad call, my bad."

Once DJ flipped, my reaction was basically "Well, Looker will never forgive me for this." The player I was defending flipped scum. I really want you to be scum too, BigBear, so it doesn't mean I messed up as bad, but there was one player that would know this is not the case, and that's town-BigBear. So when you started the thread looking elsewhere, I was suspicious of you.

That suspicion was based on the QUITE REASONABLE ASSUMPTION that you actually read the thread before posting. If you are town that assumption is incorrect, that's really awful. You are telling me you voted DJ without even looking at his cop claim, without even seeing if there were any alternative lynch candidates, without looking at basically anything. That is so amazingly lazy and terrible. I mean, what if DJ had flipped town? How would that have been when we asked you about your vote? "Oh, well I didn't actually

read

the thread, I'm so busy you see."

That is my case against you.

I'll answer some stuff in your post directly in my next post. For what it is worth, I'm getting really frustrated with you. You are being

really

obtuse. If this isn't deliberate, could you please stop?

[Sanjay]

Also, you didn't even read page 40 when you decided to vote DRK? What?

Do you see why this is terrible play from town?