Mini 945: Mafia in Bawlmer - GAME OVER

[StrangerCoug]

I hereby understand and confirm my role.

[StrangerCoug]

Well, the cop knows who not to investigate xD That's not a free pass, however—in fact, it's an easy scum claim, so be extra careful, dramonic.

Vote: dramonic

not for that, but for being the nightmarish nekomata from my game.

[StrangerCoug]

Vote: dramonic

We do not feel that millers should be left alive to later cause distraction.

This comes off to me as policy-lynching dramonic for claiming miller. Do you

REALLY

want to give scum an advantage by going after such an easy target so early?

Unvote: dramonic
Vote: Ophanim

[StrangerCoug]

Vote: dramonic

We do not feel that millers should be left alive to later cause distraction.

This comes off to me as policy-lynching dramonic for claiming miller. Do you

REALLY

want to give scum an advantage by going after such an easy target so early?

Unvote: dramonic
Vote: Ophanim

You're using weasely wording and hypocrisy here; you're essentially advocating (though you're trying to hide it through wording) policy lynching someone who you believe to be policy lynching without understand their motivations.

That I was being on the jumpy side is conceded, but I consider policy-lynching a player without a better option out there as scummy.

That being said, had you not just randomly and baselessly started jumping to conclusions, you would realize that there are only two possible motivations for claiming miller:

1. Actual miller, which in my opinion should not exist in a normal game (unless the definition of normal has

significantly

shifted since the time of my predecessor account)

I wouldn't be throwing a miller in a normal game either, but MeMe rarely and I never do normality checks on games, and I didn't set out to play mod-WIFOM games.

2. Someone trying not to get investigated by a cop (also known as "scum", since we can further infer that the only person who would fear a cop investigation aside from an

unclaimed

miller would logically be someone else who would come up guilty)

I'm in no position to counter this, but I have no real read on dramonic.

Either way, we can be assured that by going after dramonic (until a better target arises) we are improving our day 1 lynch by lowering the chance of hitting an actual power role while subsequently increasing our chance of hitting scum by narrowing people's possible thought processes onto a town/scum binary.

Why am I not a better target since you accused me of policy-lynching players that policy-lynch? To me, being hypocritical is scummier than claiming miller.

Aren't Millers usually left thinking they are a vanilla townie?

No. There's actually been quite the debate over whether or not that would be considered bastard modding.

I stuck such a miller in SWN I, which I advertise as bastard-modded (pretty tame at that, though).

[StrangerCoug]

Vote: dramonic

We do not feel that millers should be left alive to later cause distraction.

This comes off to me as policy-lynching dramonic for claiming miller. Do you

REALLY

want to give scum an advantage by going after such an easy target so early?

Unvote: dramonic
Vote: Ophanim

You're using weasely wording and hypocrisy here; you're essentially advocating (though you're trying to hide it through wording) policy lynching someone who you believe to be policy lynching without understand their motivations.

That I was being on the jumpy side is conceded, but I consider policy-lynching a player without a better option out there as scummy.

So wait, you want me to wait until there's a better option than policy lynching to push forth a policy lynch?

Does that make any sense to you whatsoever?

Of course it doesn't. The better options should go first, then the policy lynches.

That being said, had you not just randomly and baselessly started jumping to conclusions, you would realize that there are only two possible motivations for claiming miller:

1. Actual miller, which in my opinion should not exist in a normal game (unless the definition of normal has

significantly

shifted since the time of my predecessor account)

I wouldn't be throwing a miller in a normal game either, but MeMe rarely and I never do normality checks on games, and I didn't set out to play mod-WIFOM games.

So because the possibility exists we should ignore it because "you don't want to go there"?

No; I don't get what I want. I do, however, get to use my brain in determining whether we should pursue dramonic (and so do you). My brain says now is not the time.

2. Someone trying not to get investigated by a cop (also known as "scum", since we can further infer that the only person who would fear a cop investigation aside from an

unclaimed

miller would logically be someone else who would come up guilty)

I'm in no position to counter this, but I have no real read on dramonic.

This isn't a matter of you having a read. This is a matter of you agreeing or disagreeing with my logic.

I thought "I'm in no position to counter this" implied "I agree because I have no reason to disagree."

Aren't Millers usually left thinking they are a vanilla townie?

No. There's actually been quite the debate over whether or not that would be considered bastard modding.

I stuck such a miller in SWN I, which I advertise as bastard-modded (pretty tame at that, though).

So because it's in a bastard-mod game it should be in a normal game?

When the hell did I say that roles that are associated with bastard-mod games should be put in normal games? That was in response to Sidekick's curiousity and had nothing to do with my view on dramonic.

I love how you twist what I'm saying and take me out of context.

[StrangerCoug]

I hate timezones sometimes, all the American players are most active while I'm asleep so I always wake up to heaps of posts.

Vote: StrangerCoug

for the time being, I don't like his little "Well, the cop knows who not to investigate xD" line or the "so be extra careful, dramonic" line from the post in which he ended up... voting for dramonic. That's power role direction and coaching right there.

Regarding dramonic, unless Coug is lynched/killed and flips scum (in which case we'd have a definite link based on Coug's posting) I have no problems with letting him live or die on his own merits. I would not support letting him live until the endgame however.

The vote for dramonic was a random vote because I did not, and still do not, feel it justified to vote dramonic just for claiming miller. Also, for me to be directing power roles and not dramonic requires there to be an idiotic cop in this game, for which there is no evidence.

Well, the cop knows who not to investigate xD That's not a free pass, however—in fact, it's an easy scum claim,

so be extra careful, dramonic.

I find the bolded part really odd. Why would StrangerCoug want to warn dramonic to be careful? This does not follow, and seems like a good place to start.

Vote: StrangerCoug

You quoted part of the answer, the rest should be in my defense of Cyberbob. I will gladly answer anything outstanding regarding dramonic, however.

Vote: dramonic

We do not feel that millers should be left alive to later cause distraction.

This comes off to me as policy-lynching dramonic for claiming miller. Do you

REALLY

want to give scum an advantage by going after such an easy target so early?

Unvote: dramonic

Is it really a scum advantage at this stage? Surely we're just RVSing for the moment, with a scattering of light justification?

At this exact moment, not really, but if dramonic's lynch goes through and he flips what he says, scum ends up benefiting a

LOT.

Yes, dramonic should probably die at some point. No, he shouldn't die right now.

This is a further link between a possible SC/dramonic scumduo.

2. So, attacking someone means a scum buddy? In fact, I'd hardly call that attacking, merely making a point, from the looks of it. Plus, further link implies you think that this post is the first sign;

Well, the cop knows who not to investigate xD That's not a free pass, however—in fact, it's an easy scum claim, so be extra careful, dramonic.

based on the last 5 words. However, I have a different theory. Normal games are normal. SC is making the assumption that there is a cop, even though you can't be sure. However, by using the word "the" in his post implies there is one. So, therefore, I propose this. Due to the fact that by the wording of his post, he knows there's a cop...

SC is the cop.

Anyone have any problems with that theory?

I have a problem with that theory: Why do you want to fish for my role?

Unvote: Ophanim

and demote to an

HoS
Vote: DiamondCrash

[StrangerCoug]

The vote for dramonic was a random vote because I did not, and still do not, feel it justified to vote dramonic just for claiming miller.

Uh... Excuse me? That is a load of crap. Your "random vote" coincidentally fell on the same person you were discussing, who also just happens to have some degree of scumminess? How exactly did you decide on dramonic for your random vote?

I random voted dramonic for being the arsonist in the game I just finished. (Before it happens, go through the roles of SWN II before telling me I changed my story on why I picked dramonic.) There is clearly no basis for that, but as for the miller claim, I also have a neutral read on dramonic, something I've been pushing forever.

And, a random vote after quote walls and quote pyramids of dialogue? Not buying that for a second. I almost said something the first time you made that claim but I decided to see if you would try and justify it later.

I did not random vote after quote walls and quote pyramids of dialogue. Pay attention.

[StrangerCoug]

You quoted part of the answer, the rest should be in my defense of Cyberbob. I will gladly answer anything outstanding regarding dramonic, however.

I think it's going over my head, but I'll give it a shot. If you meant that because Miller is an easy scum claim (which it is, no disagreement there), then why would you say "be careful" rather than "IGMEOY" or something similar?

You're on the right track. Why I said "be careful" and not "IGMEOY" is because I didn't want to automatically call dramonic scum. Now that you mention it, though, an IGMEOY would have better represented what I was thinking.

[StrangerCoug]

SC - what is there to be careful about? The cat is already out of the bag and nothing can change that. Be careful about being investigated anyway? Be careful about all the heat that is going to come?

dramonic needs to worry about not looking scummy, which seems to already be a problem if I look at it from his perspective.

[StrangerCoug]

StrangerCoug why exactly did you defend dramonic?

I was less concerned about defending dramonic and more about attacking Ophanim's sudden jump on him. Yes, a miller claim is in and of itself information, but it does not take priority over other pressing matters. I believe DiamondCrash is at L-2, and for reasons that I support (and that he has yet to defend, so anybody putting him at L-1 had better give a damn good reason).

Do you agree a miller claim has to be lynched at some point?

I have no reason not to, but Day 1 is not that point.

Why do you think he would have claimed miller?

Lynch me if I know at this point. I have no read on him.

[StrangerCoug]

Whoa, sorry guys, I totally forgot about this game after I confirmed.

I don't have much time right now to add anything substantive, but I do wonder why scumDiamond would out the possible cop instead of just NK'ing him.

The back of my head wants to yell, "Because it's a day start," but that answer is probably based on a misinterpretation of your question. It is food for thought—if I slipped cop, then DiamondCrash-scum would not be as scummy right now if he shut up about it and killed me.

[StrangerCoug]

Cyberbob, do you really think it's a good idea to let DiamondCrash play the newbie card here? Unless all he's played on this site is Mish Mash or he signed up, disappeared for awhile, and came back, that's something I expect DC to know better than to do.

Ophanim needs to get the heck in here and answer me, and I'm tempted to take back my opposition to policy-lynching out of frustration.

[StrangerCoug]

I'm tired and really want to go to bed right now, but let me say that while DiamondCrush is still suspicious, Cyberbob is to him as I am to dramonic right now. I still deny that I was trying to defend him and instead assert that now's not a good time to lynch the claimed miller, but now CB has very similar thinking about DC. I know how much trouble I'm in right now, and so should Cyberbob.

[StrangerCoug]

On Day 1, no (I prefer information lynches), but I agree that we have to lynch dramonic before the scum's presence in the game overwhelms us. However, it doesn't refute the fact I know that I'll come under a lot more pressure if dramonic flips scum, and I expect the same to happen to you if DiamondCrash does.

[StrangerCoug]

I'm tired and really want to go to bed right now, but let me say that while DiamondCrush is still suspicious, Cyberbob is to him as I am to dramonic right now. I still deny that I was trying to defend him and instead assert that now's not a good time to lynch the claimed miller, but now CB has very similar thinking about DC. I know how much trouble I'm in right now, and so should Cyberbob.

I'm not sure I get it. Backing off someone at L-1 on page 4 is not the same as using kid gloves with a claimed miller like you did, SC. How is it similar?

All DiamondCrash said in his defense is basically that he's a newbie. Cyberbob is giving him undue leniency in my opinion.

To all:
Do you think that the DiamondCrash thing is failtown or scum?

Scum. I'm not letting somebody who fished for my role off the hook as easily as others are.

Can you list the two players you're most suspicious of and why?

DiamondCrash above is #2. I had a strong Ophanim suspicion, but he's moving down that mental LoS of mine, so Cyberbob would be my #2.

How would you describe your mafia playstyle?

I think of myself as a notorious busser. I'm also trying to get out of my tendency to tunnel as scum.

That being said, had you not just randomly and baselessly started jumping to conclusions, you would realize that there are only two possible motivations for claiming miller:

1. Actual miller, which in my opinion should not exist in a normal game (unless the definition of normal has

significantly

shifted since the time of my predecessor account)

I wouldn't be throwing a miller in a normal game either, but MeMe rarely and I never do normality checks on games, and I didn't set out to play mod-WIFOM games.

So because the possibility exists we should ignore it because "you don't want to go there"?

No; I don't get what I want. I do, however, get to use my brain in determining whether we should pursue dramonic (and so do you). My brain says now is not the time.

And my brain says it is, so we're at an impasse. If anyone claimed anything else at that time other than miller you'd be right on their ass. What makes this situation different aside from the fact that it's one of those convenient claims that ever so happens to be a perfect cover for scum?

You do not paint a nightkill target on yourself by claiming miller as opposed to most other roles I can think of.

2. Someone trying not to get investigated by a cop (also known as "scum", since we can further infer that the only person who would fear a cop investigation aside from an

unclaimed

miller would logically be someone else who would come up guilty)

I'm in no position to counter this, but I have no real read on dramonic.

This isn't a matter of you having a read. This is a matter of you agreeing or disagreeing with my logic.

I thought "I'm in no position to counter this" implied "I agree because I have no reason to disagree."

No, it could as easily imply "I have no way of countering this, and I disagree".

If you can't counter something you disagree with, then you have a problem. You could be unwilling to admit you're wrong, you could be inconfident in your stance, etc.

Aren't Millers usually left thinking they are a vanilla townie?

No. There's actually been quite the debate over whether or not that would be considered bastard modding.

I stuck such a miller in SWN I, which I advertise as bastard-modded (pretty tame at that, though).

So because it's in a bastard-mod game it should be in a normal game?

When the hell did I say that roles that are associated with bastard-mod games should be put in normal games? That was in response to Sidekick's curiousity and had nothing to do with my view on dramonic.

And it was completely irrelevant towards Sidekick's comment (and mine), so I don't see the use.

Just because my words are irrelevant does not give you the right to twist them.

dramonic needs to worry about not looking scummy, which seems to already be a problem if I look at it from his perspective.

Eeeeeeewwwwwewewewewewewewew.

You have no reason to want him to not look scummy. He can look as scummy as he wishes. In fact, it hurts the town if he focuses on not looking scummy.

Perhaps I worded this wrong too. If he's scumhunting and being generally useful, then the miller claim can go on the back burner. If he's scummy enough to warrant a lynch, then by golly, we should lynch him.

Yes, a miller claim is in and of itself information, but it does not take priority over other pressing matters.

There were no other pressing matters

OK, you win this argument.

The back of my head wants to yell, "Because it's a day start," but that answer is probably based on a misinterpretation of your question. It is food for thought—if I slipped cop, then DiamondCrash-scum would not be as scummy right now if he shut up about it and killed me.

One possibility is traitor - he could be scum with no contact with the other scum and no power over the nightkill (which I have seen in normals before).

Now we get into an interesting conversation. Do you suppose that, if DiamondCrash is traitor, he is recruitable?

[StrangerCoug]

I'm tired and really want to go to bed right now, but let me say that while DiamondCrush is still suspicious, Cyberbob is to him as I am to dramonic right now. I still deny that I was trying to defend him and instead assert that now's not a good time to lynch the claimed miller, but now CB has very similar thinking about DC. I know how much trouble I'm in right now, and so should Cyberbob.

I'm not sure I get it. Backing off someone at L-1 on page 4 is not the same as using kid gloves with a claimed miller like you did, SC. How is it similar?

All DiamondCrash said in his defense is basically that he's a newbie. Cyberbob is giving him undue leniency in my opinion.

That's fine, I have no major problem with that viewpoint, but it doesn't answer my question. How is Cyberbob's interaction with DC similar to yours with dram? They're two very different situations.

Then I must ask you to explain to me how the situations are different, as I don't understand how my answer is inadequate.

Oph and SC, please do us all a favor and limit quote pyramids. If at all possible, cut down the quote to just what you're responding to.

Will do.

[StrangerCoug]

All DiamondCrash said in his defense is basically that he's a newbie. Cyberbob is giving him undue leniency in my opinion.

Scum. I'm not letting somebody who fished for

my role

off the hook as easily as others are.

Taking things personally much?

Even if I didn't, I consider myself aggressive on a good day.

Ophanim is not back on my scumlist just yet, but (s)he's pretty hell-bent on getting rid of DiamondCrash from what I understand of #131, and I wouldn't be surprised if Oph is trying to bus DC.

[StrangerCoug]

I claim Town Roleblocker.

The real reason why I wondered about SC's role was because I didn't want to block a potential doc.

I have a problem with the whole post. First off, why are you saying that you "claim" a role instead of outright being the role? Second, that you first claim that I am a doctor and then (supposedly by mistake) a doctor really isn't flying. You're not trying to deduce whether I'm town or scum, you're trying to deduce what power role I have, assuming I have one for you to guess at in the first place. Now die.

[StrangerCoug]

The only two things I care about right now are that DiamondCrash doesn't self-hammer if he is town and that nobody else objects to a hammer at this point.

[StrangerCoug]

Now that we have a DiamondCrash flip, Cyberbob is very suspicious for his interactions with him. I'd like to hear his thoughts.

[StrangerCoug]

I think I can wrap my head around how Cyberbob thought DiamondCrash was newbscum.

The other big suspect I remember having is dead also, so I'm on nothing but hearsay right now. If anything, I'm not fond of Sidekick's activity either, but I'm not going to vote Ythan right now. I don't remember seeing Apayah often either.

[StrangerCoug]

Re: (a) - What are the points against Sidekick that Ythan can answer for?

I'm leaving the manner of his response entirely up to him but I do want

a

response. Thanks for the coaching lesson though!

FOS: MacavityLock

I'm leaning more towards MacavityLock's question being legitimate, not coaching. It is rhetorical, though—Ythan cannot read Sidekick's mind.

[StrangerCoug]

After all, scum never buddy up to townies. That is not an event that has ever occurred once in the history of mafia.

Mafia is not a game of absolutes and I can probably look around for a game where scum sucked up to town.

Get to lynching scum

without

questioning each other?

How is this possible?

Fair enough, it's not something I can push too hard as I don't have anything to back it up.

Just like Ythill! Macavity I expect some strong moves against SC for asking such an obviously loaded question.

I'm a little too tied to steamroll MacavityLock right now, but his interactions with you don't make me happy.

[StrangerCoug]

EBWOP: tied = tired

[StrangerCoug]

Humor has the tendency to blow right past me.

[StrangerCoug]

Time to elaborate on my MacavityLock suspicions.

Lock's iso1 is a terribly hypocritical vote.

It was a semi-random page 2 vote based on 3 worthless, contentless posts that didn't even contain so much as a random vote.

OK, this looks fine by itself. The problem here, is this:

Starting in 8 he keeps pushing a wagon on my pred even though he never added anything to his initial reasoning.

Doesn't mean I didn't have reasons for it, most specifically the contentlessness together with the L-1 vote in record time, which I did clarify in my iso 11.

It's not clear to me when the "semi-random" bit of your vote reason goes away, MacavityLock. I'd expect something between your ISO 1 and 8 as to why you believe Sidekick was scum. As for the L-1 vote, yes, I would have liked more out of Sidekick as to why he put DiamondCrash at L-1 without letting him claim. And yes, I would have bought that rolefishing warranted such a vote if it was backed up with an explanation as to why. I think you're pushing Sidekick, and therefore Ythan, a little too hard here.

In 9 he adds another flimsy case to his portfolio, on Chevre.

And I've still got my eye out Chevre, thank you very much.

This comes off to me as being flippant instead of actually defending the Chevre case. (And yes, the Chevre case is weak. In my opinion, it's also invalid if xvart is town.)

You say I'm coaching, I say you're asking loaded questions.

By the way, if I am coaching Ythan, doesn't that mean that he's necessarily scumbuddies with me?

I've coached town as scum. So no.

xvart is my other suspect.

Do you think that the DiamondCrash thing is failtown or scum?
Can you list the two players you're most suspicious of and why?
How would you describe your mafia playstyle?

1. Failtown; scum would have no reason to out who they think is the cop. They can take care of that with a NK.

This is a bit problematic for me, mostly because it has been proven to not necessarily be true—DiamondCrash flipped scum and I am still alive. Perhaps scum has somebody else on their side as their roleblocker, but what makes somewhat more sense to me as to why I'm breathing is that DiamondCrash made me too obvious of a protection target and opted to get rid of someone else.

Hello, I think xvart is scum because of his flip on DC between iso10 and iso11.

Vote: xvart

Are you saddened that nobody jumped on your fishing for votes/testing the waters for my lynch?

Appealing to emotion.

If I were a double voter, I'd vote them both right now, but sadly I have to settle for a

vote: Macavitylock

and an

FoS: xvart

.

[StrangerCoug]

I'll say it again: I wasn't coaching, I was trying to figure out Cyberbob's loaded question.

I was answering what I took as an open question by denying that you have to be scum with Ythan to coach him. The answer does not say either way that you're coaching.

There could be countless reasons why you are not dead: maybe the scum don't think you are actually a cop; maybe they were worried about a doctor protection; maybe they wanted to cast suspicion on me and/or you; maybe any other reason.

More ammo for me. You implied that, after I supposedly slipped, DiamondCrash-scum would have better reason to kill me than to publicly guess at my role. Why are the other options only occurring to you now, after the fact?

[StrangerCoug]

More ammo for me. You implied that, after I supposedly slipped, DiamondCrash-scum would have better reason to kill me than to publicly guess at my role. Why are the other options only occurring to you now, after the fact?

I am having trouble following the purpose behind your line of questioning so if this isn't clear I'll do my best to rectify. First, are you asking me to justify or explain the scum NK? At the time, my justification for DC being a stupid town was because I wouldn't think that a scum would draw attention to someone that could have slipped and cop announced themselves.

Or, are you asking me to explain why I didn't hypothesize out why you might be alive in advance, should DC flip scum and you still be alive today? First, at the time of the comment I didn't expect DC to flip scum (hence the reason I said failtown) and had no reason to suspect you actually being in danger. The reason the other options are just now occurring to me is because they didn't become relevant (and aren't really anyway IMO) until now.

I was looking for something closer to an explanation than a justification. While the 180°-turn you made is noteworthy, that specifically bothered me.

[StrangerCoug]

If everyone could very briefly explain their vote in their next post.

MacavityLock has made some weak as heck cases on Sidekick and Chevre.

[StrangerCoug]

MacavityLock has made some weak as heck cases on Sidekick and Chevre.

How was my Sidekick case weak? Uselessness and potential quicklynching seem pretty darn good for a Day 1 case. More than 1 person agreed with me on it Day 1.

OK, but what did you contribute to it? Prove that you weren't coattailing others.

[StrangerCoug]

OK, you win the Sidekick case. I'm still dissatisfied with the Chevre case, though.

[StrangerCoug]

ITT MacavityLock flails like mad.

[StrangerCoug]

Chevre is potentially scum. Look at his response to DC's post. He doesn't mention the rolefishing and throws out a few easily-rebutted statements or statements with only marginal significance as scummy, then follows it up with a vote. I think it looks like he's scum trying to both distance while giving only minimal ammunition to the town.

Chevre...is interesting. I like most of what he has to say, but his D2 refusal to explain his votes is bad form. He's the lightest of my scum reads.

Why is

SHE

in your player analysis twice?

StrangerCoug feels scummy to me. He doesn't seem to post too much content that's not a defense.

You're voting me just for this? It doesn't seem to take my actions today into account. I've posted opinions on Cyberbob, MacavityLock, and xvart. I was quick to drop my Cyberbob case when he explained DiamondCrash as newbscum, and while I can make sense out of MacavityLock and xvart (I even stopped attacking MacavityLock for the Sidekick case), they still seem off to me. This is the first time I'm on defense today.

I do see a long argument with Ophanim in my ISO, but he said he wasn't suspicious of me:

Where have I announced suspicion of Coug? Am I not allowed to have a back-and-forth with someone I don't remotely suspect?

So yeah. Your vote is weak.

[StrangerCoug]

As for SC:

MacavityLock has made some weak as heck cases on Sidekick and Chevre.

Nothing to do with my questioning of Cyberbob, SC already admitted that my case on Sidekick didn't suck, and I have made it clear that my Day 1 case on Chevre was pure gut and at no point merited a vote. (It has now, but again, I don't think that's the point.) He needs to give a better reason for keeping his vote on me.

I ceded that your Sidekick case was decent after I made the post you quoted, and I still see no case on Chevre. I also don't remember you being as reactionary as you were in posts 274 and (especially) 290.

[StrangerCoug]

...I still see no case on Chevre. I also don't remember you being as reactionary as you were in posts 274 and (especially) 290.

See my isos 26, 28, and 30 for my Chevre case.

I can see your line of thinking in 26 (question dodging), as I can in 28 (vague vote reasoning). The tone may be rubbing me the wrong way in 28, but I'll get to that. I think what you mention in 30 (and elsewhere) is an honest mistake, but that's difference in opinion.

By reactionary, do you mean defensive? All I have to say to that is that I don't want to get lynched, and the way the game was going (me as L-2 big wagon, no one else commenting on it, approaching deadline), that looked like the way it was going to go. Does me not wanting to get lynched make me any more likely to be scum?

I was shooting more for panicky than defensive. You'd think that nothing's wrong with saying you don't want to be lynched, but it tells me you're concerned about self-preservation.

xvart is still suspicious and I'm not afraid to switch votes if he is a more viable wagon.

[StrangerCoug]

Still like that MacavityLock vote on mine. The way he's acting isn't typical of him.

[StrangerCoug]

I just thought of something—most of MacavityLock's actions are explainable in my mind. Sidekick was explained away, and while I still don't think Chevre's scum, MacavityLock's thought processes on her make sense. My vote really isn't justified anymore.

I'm going to shift gears,

unvote MacavityLock

, and

vote xvart

. See post #253 for my case on him.

[StrangerCoug]

I just thought of something—most of MacavityLock's actions are explainable in my mind. Sidekick was explained away, and while I still don't think Chevre's scum, MacavityLock's thought processes on her make sense. My vote really isn't justified anymore.

So if the actions are explainable why the atypical behavior that you just noted?

Still like that MacavityLock vote on mine. The way he's acting isn't typical of him.

xvart.

I am not MacavityLock; I can't give a good reason to explain why he's doing what he's doing. My case on him had gotten weaker and weaker and weaker. I was essentially retaining my vote on him for trying to get his bandwagon off him—good on paper, but something everybody other than jesters wants when they're wagoned, so effectively null.

[StrangerCoug]

Unvote: xvart
Vote: Chevre

You could have scumhunted more today.

[StrangerCoug]

And I hammer without letting her claim. That's going to leave a mark on me, but oh well. We weren't likely to get a lynch anyhow else.

[StrangerCoug]

I think I hammered.

I thought it was seven to lynch, so Chevre's overkill then.

[StrangerCoug]

Blown up v shot. Anyone care about flavor? Might just be the new mod unaware of some flavor convention Konowa had planned for the game.

My mini normal had very inconsistent Mafia kill flavor (if my memory serves me correctly, it was blown up, then run over, then set on fire, then slapjacked), and I was modding it the whole time. I wouldn't waste time with mod-WIFOM.

A very intriguing NK... why kill the claimed miller? Possibly the only really neutral person in terms of relationships... I'm guessing someone(s) may have been on the right track yesterday. Time to go back and look at some FoS's.

Minus the WIFOMy kill speculation, I think this is the best way to go right now. We don't have evidence of a vig or SK (only one kill a night so far), but a Mafia kill on dramonic without a good reason would not have been very strategic.

If dramonic was vigged, then I feel the kill should have been earlier, but now is not the time to go into any sort of detail why he wasn't killed on Night 1.

[StrangerCoug]

Either Dizzle is tunneling on Cyberbob or Cyberbob is panicking. I need a closer look at the two.

[StrangerCoug]

I think Cyberbob is doing a good job of trying to stir up activity, so I'll follow suit with the only thing I know what to do at this point:

Mod: Please prod everybody.

[StrangerCoug]

I'm going to pull my thumb out of my butt, too, especially since my xvart suspicions haven't died.

Vote: xvart

Again, see #253.

[StrangerCoug]

HoS: lukepukeduke

That's not a very good vote reason (unless we have a role cop that investigated her, nobody but Chevre knew she was a watcher), and just because you voted somebody does not mean he or she is scum. In fact, last time you voted MacavityLock, you didn't post a vote reason at all.

[StrangerCoug]

It's fine; I'm debating whether xvart or lukedukepuke is scummier myself.

[StrangerCoug]

You know what, I feel like giving the active lurker the ax.

Unvote: xvart
Vote: lukedukepuke

[StrangerCoug]

I know our quick wagon of ML turned out well, but this one feels different to me. luke's ill-advised vote seems more like a noob not sure what to be looking for and I doubt scum would be so willing to wagon another one of their own so early in the game.

Granted, he hasn't been here for a month quite yet, but I still expect him to have some sort of clue of what to look for, since he says this is his second game. Post #424, the only attempt at content he's made, is horrendous for obvious reasons. I want him to die.

[StrangerCoug]

That makes the most sense to me. xvart is still my top scum read, but even though we're fortunate not to be in MYLO today, I don't want this rushed.

[StrangerCoug]

I just noticed something: the night was cut 3 hours, 34 minutes, and 26 seconds short. I don't want to go into too much detail over that, but that means the Mafia cannot have run out of time to kill.

lol you counted the seconds? Really?
-The (backup) Mod

[StrangerCoug]

I just noticed something: the night was cut 3 hours, 34 minutes, and 26 seconds short. I don't want to go into too much detail over that, but that means the Mafia cannot have run out of time to kill.

lol you counted the seconds? Really?
-The (backup) Mod

If you go in your profile and put an s somewhere where it says "Date Format", the s converts to the seconds past the minute.

[StrangerCoug]

Why me, Netopalis?

[StrangerCoug]

So someone tried to kill me. That's food for thought.

[StrangerCoug]

I can tell what you're hinting at, but that's not what it is.

[StrangerCoug]

Whom did you jail on nights 1 and 2?

[StrangerCoug]

calling how "off" the luke lynch felt

The problem is you so glaringly called it an obvious mislynch, and then immediately want to focus on how terrible it was at the start of next day. You are trying to make everyone realize how you were against the wagon.

We are in great position now. When we lynch Dizzlescum then we either win or can be in a better position to prove/analyze the jailkeep situation.

xvart.

Again, your logic fails. I'll entertain an "I told you so" attitude as a tell if it comes off as avoiding a mislynch, but lukedukepuke was being of no use. That Dizzle thought he was a VI should not incriminate him per se if he's right.

Also, for a Dizzle lynch to win right now, there can't be an SK and he has to be the one that tried to kill me. Whether he was the attempted killer last night is irrelevant right now, but I have serious doubts about 10:2. Assuming that all the power roles in the game are the ones we know about, two goons vs. a watcher, a jailkeeper, and eight vanillas is horrendously imbalanced toward town.

I also can't think of how a Dizzle lynch will help Ythan out.

Vote: xvart

[StrangerCoug]

Assuming that all the power roles in the game are the ones we know about, two goons vs. a watcher, a jailkeeper, and eight vanillas is horrendously imbalanced toward town.

Why assume 2 goons?

xvart said that lynching Dizzle could potentially win us the game right now. I'm explaining to him why that doesn't make sense. (I realize that I forgot we had a miller, but my point still holds with two goons, a watcher, a jailkeeper, a miller, and seven vanilla townies, albeit slightly less so.)

[StrangerCoug]

Just for the sake of argument. If there are only two Mafiosi, then either the one alive has a very powerful role or there is an SK.

[StrangerCoug]

I'm still fond of my xvart vote, but I'm starting to have a nagging suspicion of Netopalis as well. We're going to be about equally successful in convincing the rest of us that the other is scum, though, so I'm not going to make him my main line of pursuit either.

[StrangerCoug]

I don't think you meant to direct post #514 at me, Ythan, yet it's ten minutes after mine... Ridiculously slow Internet too?

[StrangerCoug]

Also, for a Dizzle lynch to win right now, there can't be an SK and he has to be the one that tried to kill me. Whether he was the attempted killer last night is irrelevant right now, but I have serious doubts about 10:2. Assuming that all the power roles in the game are the ones we know about, two goons vs. a watcher, a jailkeeper, and eight vanillas is horrendously imbalanced toward town.

I also can't think of how a Dizzle lynch will help Ythan out.

The only reason I suggested the Dizzle lynch securing the win immediately was because there was some discussion about a two man mafia team. I'm guessing with a three person team there are two goons and a roleblocker (based on the PRs seen).

My point was we kill Dizzlescum and then that leaves only one scum to conduct the NK. I've never played JK but I would think that if I were I would JK the same person as the previous night and see if there was another no kill night. I brought up WIFOM because of course this wouldn't prove beyond a doubt that SC was the remaining scum since scum could just no kill and cast suspicion on SC.

There are more ways than that for things to go wrong for town.

• Dizzle could get lynched and flip town. Ythan would have to jailkeep correctly to avoid LYLO.
  
• I could be a Mafia roleblocker. If the mod decides that crossblocks cancel, I can both block and kill him and generate a false negative.
  
• I could be bulletproof. Ythan's jailkeeping me is then only relevant if I am scum.

I know what I am, but I want you to be aware of how bad your plan is in practice.

[StrangerCoug]

Seriously? Nothing in almost 24 hours?

Mod: Please prod everybody.

[StrangerCoug]

Neto - What worries me about you is your carelessness with the evidence you present. Why? Because scum know that, unless they are bussing, that each piece of evidence of someone's guilt isn't true to begin with. Since they are creating cases out of nothing, I feel it's more likely for them to make the little mistakes that you've made over and over again.

I'm not sure I understand this statement. The logic's probably sound, but what's throwing me off is that town is as capable of mislynching as scum is. (It's unlikely to be relevant here, but it also doesn't cover multiball, where multiple scum teams have to kill each other off.)

[StrangerCoug]

I expect to be hanged if I said you said town mislynching is impossible. It happens all the time.

[StrangerCoug]

Sorry—Dizzle crossposted and I thought #553, not #554, was directed at me.

[StrangerCoug]

ML/SC - What are your thoughts on the way this lynch seems to be going?

You're not my top pick, but I see the case on you.

[StrangerCoug]

Seven people can't come to a consensus. This is ridiculous. Why aren't xvart and Netopalis dead?

[StrangerCoug]

Vanilla townie.

I call BS on the vig claim. As I think MacavityLock said (and if not, I'm adding to him), we do not have evidence of more than one kill, vigging is risking giving the game to the Mafia, and for Cyberbob to be correct requires the extremely unlikely event of the Mafia missing three kills in a row.

His vote reason is crap, also. Basically cracking under the pressure.

Vote: Cyberbob

[StrangerCoug]

Unvote

, if only for sanity's sake.

[StrangerCoug]

EBWOP:

for Cyberbob to be correct requires the extremely unlikely event of the Mafia missing three kills in a row.

Nope, just the one of the mafia missing their kill on Nights 2 and 4. Which is not completely out of the question given that Ythan is both a protector and a roleblocker.

Are you sure you're feeling OK? That was quite the error - sure you're not getting a bit desperate at all?

Are you asleep? Nobody's kill went off Night 3.

[StrangerCoug]

Cyberbob and Netopalis in that order.

[StrangerCoug]

This is just a question out of the blue, but how likely do you consider Cyberbob to be an SK?

[StrangerCoug]

I think so too, but I was directing that at Ythan. Trying to probe a tad into #562.

[StrangerCoug]

I'm done playing the waiting game. I know the deadline's not for a good while, but there aren't a lot of feasible ways that Cyberbob could be town. I still hate how he reacted to Netopalis.

Vote: Cyberbob

[StrangerCoug]

I know. The odds of him being town are very low, however, and I don't think he is a serial killer, so I accept the risk.

[StrangerCoug]

Darn you Ythan, why do you doubt my confidence?

Unvote

[StrangerCoug]

I think SC chainsaw defended Neto against Cyberbob at the top of page 26.

Cyberbob's vote on Netopalis there is weak as hell (basically OMGUS), and I still say that's the former's grave. At least I gave my reasons for Cyberbob both times I voted today.

As for a case on somebody other than Cyberbob, I'm surprised Netopalis's sloppy hammer has been on the back burner. I realize that it's Cyber or me today, but Cyber/Neto is my current scum theory. My one concern about it is that I'm wondering why scum would be so quick to get on the bus in LYLO.

[StrangerCoug]

I think we're waiting for Ythan to give the all-clear. (OK, not really, but he's keeping a very close eye on me.) LYLO isn't the time to be suicidal, though.

[StrangerCoug]

Given that I clearly made a distinction between the town and the people I was talking to, I don't really see how.

Apparently, if at least three of the four of us other than you misunderstood it, the distinction wasn't clear. I also agree with Netopalis that the original post makes no sense, and I think this is regardless of your alignment. If you are town, why do you want to hand the game to the scum, and if you are scum, why do you want to risk us finding your buddy in three-person LYLO?

[StrangerCoug]

I suppose I'll put pairing theories, too. (Since I know my alignment and it's me or Cyberbob today, this assumes Cyberbob is confirmed scum.)

Cyberbob & MacavityLock: It appears that, looking at the former in ISO, MacavityLock sides with Cyberbob a few times during Day 1, then changes sides and goes after him, though he's not always his primary target. Cyberbob, on the other hand, avoids discussion of MacavityLock until they're attacking each other. A crossbus Day 2 makes sense to me here. Ythan claimed jailkeep targets before MacavityLock said his cop investigations were blocked, so this pairing means MacavityLock knows he was jailed the nights Cyberbob killed.

Cyberbob & Netopalis: What I still think is the most likely, but I'm trying to figure out why Cyberbob is so quick to bus his buddy in LYLO if this is the case. Cyber/Mac may be more level-headed thinking here.

Cyberbob & Ythan: This requires Ythan to be Mafia roleblocker faking jailkeeper (or Cyberbob faking jailkeeper, but Ythan is more likely to fake this in case of a tracker) and an intentional no-kill Night 3. I can't think of a motive as to why scum would want to keep the number of players at an odd number since it means they have to get one more mislynch than if they killed. I've lost to a jailkeeper fakeclaimant before, though.

[StrangerCoug]

In that case, why did you suddenly vote Netopalis before Ythan called you out on it?

And I just thought of another reason why Cyberbob/Ythan makes no sense to me: Why wasn't I blocked every single night pre-claim?

[StrangerCoug]

In that case, why did you suddenly vote Netopalis before Ythan called you out on it?

Because.

That's not going to save your life and you need to be more detailed. Hadn't Ythan knocked some sense into me, I'd jump right back on you.

Major HoS

.

[StrangerCoug]

Keep digging your grave. You seem to like doing it...

[StrangerCoug]

I call it pressure, but hey. I can cut to the chase too.

[StrangerCoug]

In fact, bring it. I'm willing to die for my cause too.

Vote: Cyberbob

[StrangerCoug]

How is it that nobody pointed out that confirmed miller = confirmed cop? I missed it because I'm dumb but there are five players here.

Hmm. Interesting thought.

[StrangerCoug]

I try not to repeat stuff already said. What do you want my opinion on?

[StrangerCoug]

I thought my being a gambler was clear to you. Only scum should be putting their life first, and since I'm convinced Cyberbob is scum, most likely with Netopalis, my money is where my mouth is. He was quick to vote Netopalis for almost nothing, and since he dodged my question at 746, I'm still debating whether he is actually scumhunting right now.

[StrangerCoug]

Only scum should be putting their life first

Wrong. This is lylo if you haven't been paying attention.

I have been. I'm saying we should all still be on the offensive. Yes, there may be times where we should be on the defensive, but we shouldn't spend all of LYLO there. So unless, for example, Cyberbob not trying isn't damning for a reason other than he

HAS

been, my statement still holds.

[StrangerCoug]

Didn't I say that, except slightly reworded?

[StrangerCoug]

I personally think the problem is that we've mostly been arguing in agreement with each other, Ythan. I still say Cyberbob is the one that cost us if he's town, but I did say I'm willing to die for my cause, and I'm willing to take the hit for it.

[StrangerCoug]

I'm not. If Cyberbob is town, then he misplayed his vig role and basically delayed what he made the inevitable. That also means, for obvious reasons, that I was wrong to go gung-ho after him.

If Cyberbob is lynched and he is town, game over. If I am lynched and I am town, game over. What makes you think this is not occuring to me?

[StrangerCoug]

Town players are more likely to make spur of the moment votes than scum because scum are usually more worrried about potential backlash.

I'm sorry; isn't this how it's been sealed that one of the two of us is dying today? Votes in LYLO require a lot of thought by nature.

Also the pairing at this point is so obviously SC-Neto it hurts.

Guess what, Cyberbob? That ultimately tells us nothing, just like me saying the scumpair is you and Netopalis tells us nothing, nor does Netopalis saying you and me help anything. Any given one of the three of us should be pushing for the other two.

[StrangerCoug]

Mod: Minor technical difficulties with my Internet connection.

And Cyberbob's head's attached for once today.

Ythan, wouldn't your role be better described as a roleblocker, then? My understanding of a jailkeeper is a combined roleblocker and doctor.

[StrangerCoug]

MacavityLock, you genius, I'm glad I

DIDN'T

lynch you.

But yeah. This is a game we should not have won. We didn't have much in the way of power and Ythan ought to be nominated for his jailkeeping play, but Cyberbob messed it up for the town here.

[StrangerCoug]

Go nth my nominations for MacavityLock and Ythan.