Mini 1005: Mafiaphobes! (Game over)

[quadz08]

VOTE: ChibiSanNub

Cause you're a bezoomy bratchny. I can viddy it from your picture.

[quadz08]

1) Are you scum?
No! Gosh, so rude.
2) What's the role you prefer to play (nothing to uncommon please), which role do you prefer between townie and scum?
I'm honestly pretty unfamiliar with roles. This is only my second game haha. I prefer PR's (especially kinda crazy ones) but I just like playing, mostly.
3) What role you hate having in the setup/play against (nothing uncommon please)?
None of the ones I've encountered so far haha.
4) What do you think about bandwagons in early game, what in late game?
In early game, they're somewhat unavoidable. During RVS, unintentional or joking bandwagons are going to happen, providing discussion fodder. As the game gets serious, though, I find bandwagons to be scummy. They remove independent thought.
5) How would you characterize your playing style?
I don't really have a solidified style just yet.
6) What do you think about RVS?
It's a good way to get things going. RQS can be more effective sometimes.
7) How do you hope to find scum?
Questioning and analyzing play, I suppose.

[quote = "vezokpiraka"]
I'll answer 6 only.
Usually people who want to end RVS by not saying "End the RVS" are scum.
Asking subtle question to end RVS = scum in my experience.
[/quote]

He did mention before the questions that he was attempting to cut RVS short. I don't feel like he was being subtle at all.

Also, discussion == town, especially in early stages.

[quadz08]

I'm pretty neutral on this issue of Tasky's questions. I personally think that questions can really help get a game going (as they have). All this contention about Tasky's 2nd and 3rd questions, I feel, may be suited to a not-in-game setting; I don't think Tasky did anything scummy, or even anti-town. As I believe has been said, any information gathered from those questions is backed up by very WIFOM-y reasoning. I can understand the points being made against it, but I don't think it's that big of a deal.

[quadz08]

The contradiction is that he first said the questions weren't game-related, then went on to use not answering the questions as a reason to call someone scummy.

[quadz08]

Yeah, Diddin's comment about his "plan" working is a little strange, though I'm inclined to believe it's mostly poor wording on his part.

Also, UNVOTE: ChibiSanNub

Also again:

@Mod: has q21 confirmed yet? Just curious. Also, could we get an official vote count? Thanks!

[quadz08]

I'm not claiming sole responsibility for ending RVS, I'm just saying that my usual plan for getting out of RVS worked, regardless of because what I did or not.

But you are claiming some responsibility; so show me where the conversation occurred about bandwagoning or the person you bandwagoned occurred.

AND, you then say your plan for getting out of RVS worked, whether you did it or not; so logically, you are saying because what I did failed, we still got out of RVS.

The fact that you are trying to take credit for something to gain town points is highly suspicious. Care to link to games where you enacted your usual plan?

Plus, your vote on Tasky was extremely opportunistic.

xvart, while I can see where diddin might be seen as scummy for that comment, I don't fully agree. Also, the underlined sentence? That is an enormous logical fallacy. What he was saying was "look, what I was trying to do was accomplished, even if it wasn't by my hand." That, by no means, equates to "look, what I was trying to do was accomplished BECAUSE I SCREWED UP."

Don't try to push suspicion on people for pretty much nonexistent reasons. I will not stand for it.

[quadz08]

Based on the way Tasky has posted so far, if his questions are some sort of scum gambit, I am not seeing it.

QFT.

@quadz - he wasn't saying diddin said that specifically. He said that:

"My plan for getting out of the RVS worked, whether my bandwagon succeeded or not" is equivalent to "My bandwagon didn't succeed, so we got out of RVS" logically, like a math problem. Correct me if I'm wrong, xvart.

Yes, if you look at it like a math problem, you're right. The thing is, this isn't a math problem. Words rarely obey the commutative property.

[quadz08]

What I said was that I could see how he might be seen as scummy, not that I saw him as scummy. I understand your opinion, I simply do not share it.

And yes, I agree that what Diddin said is contradictory. However, I believe it to be a result of poor word choice, not of an attempt to look more townie. It's far too blatant (and too illogical) for that to fly.

[quadz08]

@Friend: vezok was the first player to vote Tasky. It's difficult for me to justify sheeping with that knowledge.

[quadz08]

To an extent, I suppose. Oso made good points, there's nothing wrong with solid reasoning changing your opinion.

But, speaking of good points:

Especially because he unvotes Tasky and then, in his next post, calls Tasky scum. Doesn't match up.

Hmmmm. I'm torn.

[quadz08]

BANDWAGON ON Q21!!!!!

Aww, crap. Too late.

Anyway, I agree about vezok. I'm glad KageLord noticed the time differential between vezok's post and SSBF's; that was well done. Vezok's very first post was an immediate vote on Tasky for "subtly" ending RVS, which was a scum-tell to him. However, Tasky very clearly pointed out he was attempting to end RVS:

now... since I'd actually like to get out of the RVS fast, I'll ask some questions for you to answer...

Far from subtle, hm?

He also said he thought quicklynches could be beneficial, and has provided close to none of his own opinion. (Of course, this early in the game, that's not really a big deal.)

I think right now, he's the scummiest-looking player, so...

VOTE: vezokpiraka

[quadz08]

@mod: I think vezok unvoted.

Ah, yep missed that one. Thanks.

[quadz08]

@Friend: what is ITT?

[quadz08]

ah, thank you.

[quadz08]

Defending people is a scum tell, period.

Heaven forbid I have a differing opinion on a player from someone else, amirite? That was a very foolish statement, methinks.

As to the vezok posting-time controversy: I don't think the length of time it took is really the issue. It's negligence, quite simply. He has only himself to blame for not seeing that post, and even if he didn't see/read it before he posted, it's his responsibility to keep up with what was posted, and an EBWOP wouldn't have been so difficult to make.

[quadz08]

I may be somewhat V/LA this weekend, just as a warning. I'm not sure how often I'll be able to post.

Noted.

[quadz08]

Oh, crap. I just did a quick re-read; I had forgotten that vezok had, in fact, acknowledged SSBF's post in an EBWOP. My apologies, vezok; I wasn't intending to misrepresent you.

However, I still feel that vezok is more likely to be scum than anyone else at this point. All of his posts have been very short, and generally consist of responses and not much else. I know pretty much nothing about his usual posting style, but it seems to me that he could be trying to hang back, while still posting. Lurking without really lurking, if you will.

[quadz08]

Ok, vezok. I read through the first 9 pages of 950. While the LENGTH of your posts is about consistent with this one, I think there is significantly more content in 950 than there is here. You have questioned no one and provided very little of your opinion in this game, which is quite opposite of 950. I believe my point still stands.

[quadz08]

Are you referring to 950 in that post? Because these are the only two questions you've made in this entire game:

So you're giving tasky the noob pass but you're voting for me because of sheepping?
You sure you're not scum with Tasky?

[quadz08]

quadz08 wrote:

SSBF wrote:
Defending people is a scum tell, period.

Heaven forbid I have a differing opinion on a player from someone else, amirite? That was a very foolish statement, methinks.

Says the guy who blatantly defended diddin for no reason.

So if my opinion and my actions didn't match up, that'd be worse, right?

[quadz08]

So if my opinion and my actions didn't match up, that'd be worse, right?

Of course; my point was more it is expected for you to say that since you have already been found to be blatantly defending someone for no apparent reason. Also, you missed my question:

Also, what was the point of the comment at all, if it wasn't to score town points?

The point would be to get my opinion across on diddin's comment. Yes, it was a defense of what he said. However, I think that every opinion expressed in this game is, at its core, either an attack or a defense of another player. If the only opinions you express are attacking opinions, then that's your choice. That doesn't make a defense a scummy play.

I plan on re-reading everything sometime soon to get a fresh perspective on what's going on. I'll post my thoughts as soon as I have them haha.

[quadz08]

Ok, I've now done a re-read of the whole thread. woooooo! Dang, we spent a long time arguing about Tasky's questions. Ugh.

My number one suspect right now is SSBF. First and foremost is this:

Defending people is a scum tell, period.

This is part of his ISO #9. To me, what this statement boils down to is that if a player has a reasonable point saying that a player is not scum (or may not be scum, or whatever), he shouldn't bring it up if that person is thought to be scummy. That makes no sense to me. "Gee, I have this opinion that, if brought up, may keep us from lynching a townie. But that's a no-no! Only scum defend people!" I just don't see how forcing out opinions is pro-town in any way.

There is also this (found in his ISO #8):

Absolutely hate this. I see absolutely no purpose of that self-vote, especially since we're already getting something to work on in this game.

SSBF made a pretty big deal about what was clearly a jokey vote. Like someone (diddin, maybe?) said earlier, it seems like he's grasping at straws. Yes, we were in the serious stage. But come on, it's a game, dangit! Let a man make a dumb joke. It meant nothing and did no harm to scumhunting. Not worth the attention it's gotten.

I also have an eye on KageLord, xvart, and vezok, but nobody has really exhibited any huge scumtells that I've seen. SSBF seems to me the wisest D1 lynch, at this point.

[quadz08]

Woops, almost forgot!

UNVOTE:
VOTE: SSBF

[quadz08]

@vezok: My sympathies, my friend. You'll be in my thoughts.

@Tasky: Your point system is interesting. I pretty much agree with your ISO on vezok, and this:

he is/was the centre of attention of a lot of peoples posts... since a lot of peoples have debated against/for/with him, making him flip will give us more information that anyones else's flip

is an excellent point.

I would be ok with a vezok lynch today. I still think SSBF looks scummier, but vezok certainly has a good enough case against him to be lynched today.

[quadz08]

I would be ok with a vezok lynch today.

I still think SSBF looks scummier

, but vezok certainly has a good enough case against him to be lynched today.

If you believe this, why aren't you voting vezo?

See underlined text.

[quadz08]

I'll be willing to vote for vezok if opinion begins to sway more strongly his way. I also don't intend to let the day end in a no-lynch, if I can help it.

[quadz08]

Welcome, Sotty and Humble. Btw, Humble Poirot may be the best username I've seen so far.

[quadz08]

So... IMHO, jay is either being REALLY dumb, or telling the truth. I'm leaning towards really dumb.

Any player with brains should know that in a normal game, having a role (especially an investigative one) that can be used before N1 is remarkably rare. In fact, I don't know of any roles that CAN investigate before N1. Unless the mod decided to try something new out (which I don't

think

is standard procedure in normal games), jay is making things up.

Here are my options:
A) Jay is a day-cop, who's telling the truth, albeit stupidly.
B) Jay is a lyncher, who's going about it remarkably obtusely.
C) Jay is a jester, which isn't a huge stretch after that post.

Whatever the case may be, his method of producing that information was quite foolish, methinks. I'm unsure what to think of his alignment, but I do find it possible that he could be a jester... or a mafia-aligned bomb? Or some such thing.

Please explain, jay.

[quadz08]

@Humble:
I think the fact that I come across as wishy-washy is the biggest problem with my playstyle. By nature, it usually takes a lot for me to commit to a certain judgement of a situation or person. I try not to throw my vote around carelessly, and other players' opinions are almost as important to me as mine. I don't see my judgement as any more valid than anyone else's, so when someone provides good insight, I'm not afraid to have it figure into my own reasonings. (And, depending on the situation, supercede my own reasonings.) I think that this sometimes makes me come across as a fence-sitter/parrotting/whatever.

My guess is that there's 3 mafia, in 1 group, but that's only because it seems pretty standard. We'll find out more tonight, after we see who gets NK'ed (and how many NK's there are.)

[quadz08]

@xvart:
It's that and some gut feeling. He and vezok look scummiest to me right now. SSBF's grasping of straws and dislike of defense of others comes across as scummier to me than vezok's short posts. Not by a huge stretch, but still more. But like I said, I'm willing to lynch either.

We need to ensure that we lynch someone; D1 ends in 3 days. I will switch my vote to KageLord if the deadline comes up and my vote is needed on him to ensure a lynch today; that is a significantly better option than allowing a NL. I say this so that (if it comes to it) everyone understands why I did it, and so people can inform me if that's a terrible idea.

[quadz08]

TBH, I just don't find you as scummy as SSBF. The gut feeling just isn't there. His reasoning seems more forced than yours, and it seems like he's trying harder to get someone lynched with those points, rather than just discussing them.

[quadz08]

quadz, you start off by saying, as you have been recently, that you think SSBF is scummiest followed by vezo. I'm wondering why you say in your next paragraph that you would switch to me to prevent a no lynch. I was just tied with vezo in votes, until Poirot unvoted, so more on either one of us would probably result in that person being lynched (if you switch to vezo, someone else will probably do the same). If vezo is the second scummiest to you and you would be willing to lynch him or SSBF as you say above, why switch to me instead of him?

Sorry, that was poor wording on my part. In my head, my earlier declaration of vezok as 2nd scummiest meant that I would switch to him if that's where the lynch looks to be happening. I pointed you out specifically because you're on the general radar and I hadn't mentioned you. To clarify, I am willing to switch to KageLord or vezok to ensure a lynch. I may be willing to switch to others as well, if the need arises.

[quadz08]

@xvart:
It's that and some gut feeling. He and vezok look scummiest to me right now. SSBF's grasping of straws and dislike of defense of others comes across as scummier to me than vezok's short posts. Not by a huge stretch, but still more. But like I said, I'm willing to lynch either.

Why is vezok scummier than I? You are saying that SSBF is scummy because of the self vote comment, saying "defending someone is a scumtell", and gut. Then vezok is slightly less scummy because of short posts. Then you are only keeping an eye on me when I am guilty of everything SSBF is (minus the apparent gut)?

xvart.

TBH, xvart, I'm not sure. I think I need to sit down and re-read the thread again; maybe write some thoughts down. Now that you bring it up in that manner, I feel like I need to straighten out my thoughts.

[quadz08]

quadz starts off the game very neutral. Understands the “Tasky is scummy” situation but doesn't agree. I wonder quadz, did you find anyone scummy for pushing that line of thought?

I did not find anyone scummy for that, I don't believe. I thought it was mostly a discussion of theory, not anything that showed a whole lot of tell one way or another.

He spends a little while not voting and seems to be feeling the game out until this:

BANDWAGON ON Q21!!!!!

Aww, crap. Too late.

Anyway, I agree about vezok.

I'm glad KageLord noticed the time differential between vezok's post and SSBF's; that was well done.

Vezok's very first post was an immediate vote on Tasky for "subtly" ending RVS, which was a scum-tell to him. However, Tasky very clearly pointed out he was attempting to end RVS:

now... since I'd actually like to get out of the RVS fast, I'll ask some questions for you to answer...

Far from subtle, hm?

He also said he thought quicklynches could be beneficial, and has provided close to none of his own opinion. (Of course, this early in the game, that's not really a big deal.)

I think right now, he's the scummiest-looking player, so...

VOTE: vezokpiraka

The bold part is the most striking to me. quadz, do you still think the time difference in between the two posts is a good point in the vezo case?

I do not. Oso (I think) made a good point about not using out-of-game reasoning, because who knows what was happening IRL. I hadn't thought about that before Oso brought it up.

His case on SSBF does seem to come from nowhere, but he said he did a re-read and re-reads are when you would hope new info comes up. But after the case he does little to push his vote. SSBF's post after quadz votes him makes no mention of the vote or case on him. He just totally ignores this. Then quadz ignores the fact he is being ignored and we get a lot of nothing. That just doesn't seem like a townie reaction to me. Your vote gets ignored so you carrying doing nothing that has anything to do with your top suspect? Feels fake.

You're right, SSBF did ignore me. However, that wasn't a pressure vote. That was a "this guy is scummy, so I'm voting him" vote. If he didn't respond, then that's his choice to ignore it. I saw no need to push him into responding to it; what would I have said? "Hey, SSBF, I voted for you! Aren't you going to comment on it?" I'm sure that would have looked much less scummy.

[quadz08]

Okay. Tell me, outside of your vote what are you doing to get SSBF lynched?

Waiting for other scumtells to come out of him, and repeating that I think he is scum. There isn't much else to do, that I can see. I can't keep repeating the same case over and over, that would accomplish nothing, and look scummy.

[quadz08]

Also, we haven't heard anything from jay since his declaration of Humble's scuminess. It would be superb if we could get some more info on that...

@Mod: has jay been prodded?

[quadz08]

An important part about presenting cases is to make sure you present it in such a way that you don't look scummy, right? Only scummy people worry about looking scummy.

As to your first sentence: I agree, and I have done that to the best of my ability.
As to your second sentence: I disagree. If a townie looks scummy because of the way he's made a case on someone, then that distracts the town from looking for the real scum. This is what is happening now, methinks.

[quadz08]

quadz apparently doesn't favor vezok lynch over kage. He just wants to avoid nolynch.
lame.

Please, explain why this is lame. I'll take a mislynch over a nolynch on Day 1 every time. At least we get some information this way. Even if I'm to be lynched, that's all right; at least I'll be giving town information to work with in subsequent Days.

[quadz08]

The people who were on my wagon, for one. You can bet that at LEAST one scum, probably more, is on it. They know that I'm playing scummily, and so will be a pretty easy lynch, so voting for me is relatively safe. I wouldn't be surprised if every scum is voting for me at the end of the day, if they aren't already (assuming I'm the lynch).

[quadz08]

Who specifically? The people on your wagon would include seven people by the time it comes to completion. That doesn't really help the town narrow it down. If you think scum are likely pushing this wagon, that would mean that someone currently on it would be scum; so why are you not voting anyone on your wagon?

I don't think they're necessarily "pushing" the wagon. Honestly, of the people on my wagon, the only one I've seen reason to suspect is vezok. That doesn't mean he's the only possible scum on my wagon, though; heaven knows I'm far from a great scumhunter.

It hasn't been an easy lynch, since it has taken almost a full three weeks to get it going. In fact, the wagon just got steam yesterday.

Perhaps "easy" wasn't the right term. I was intending to mean that scum could vote for me without a terrible amount of pressure on them to explain, especially as we reach the end of the day.

On that note, since SSBF doesn't look like he will be lynched today: UNVOTE: SSBF, VOTE: vezok

And, since it seems to be that time, I'm claiming. I am a vanilla townie.

[quadz08]

The VT claim at lynch -2 pushes me more towards placing my vote on quadz. Combine that with his last couple of posts where he is so sure the scum are voting him and yet won't say who.

I was merely going by statistics, and how most of the games I've read through/played/heard about have worked. As I said, of the people voting me, the only one I have found scummy is vezok.

[quadz08]

I don't like how he has made several short posts, with essentially zero content. (I know, I know, I can hear the shouts of "hypocrite!" already.) His vote on me was motivated purely by pressure (as he said, "Here get some pressure if it's needed. My vote is still on kagelord but xvart apparently wants some help.") and he provided no reasons other than that to vote for me. This post is also a pretty heavy contradiction, as he says that the game is getting boring because no one is asking questions of him, then says that another player needs to do his own work and not active lurk.

[quadz08]

What do you mean by "similar situation?"

[quadz08]

Alright, that makes sense.

[quadz08]

How it would change our lynch choice for today? I don't think it really would; I and vezok are pretty clearly suspects 1 and 2 (in whatever order you wish).

[quadz08]

oh! In that case, I would go back SSBF.

[quadz08]

I'll eat my hat.

Hope you have a tasty headpiece.

Why are you so concerned about commiting a scum tell? A town would be more focused on finding scums then avoiding suspicion.

I disagree with this. I think townies are very much concerned with avoiding suspicion, because if they play scummily, then they get mislynched, wasting time and helping the scum. I have very clearly failed in this regard.

Also, I'm pretty sure vezok is at L-2, unless there was an unvote I missed. I currently have myself, KageLord, Tasky, sotty, and SSBF voting for vezok, jay voting for Humble, and everyone else voting for me.

[quadz08]

TNM: Best flavor ever.

Sorry for sucking so much, you guys. Go town!

[quadz08]

Good game, everyone. I hope quadz comes back so I can apologize for rallying everyone to his lynch. My only explanation, and Humble hit it pretty much on the head here. I had nailed scum on D1 in the last three games I had played, and my read on quadz was stronger than any of those reads; which is why I was so vehement about it.

Scum and Masons - will you share your QT?

xvart.

Apology accepted. I played pretty badly, to be fair. However, I must ask: how did the hat taste?

[quadz08]

lol. Not too good. I was actually going to post some random image of a guy eating a hat from google images but I decided it wouldn't do well to dwell on it or bring it up.

wise.

Wise, but disappointingly non-hilarious.

[quadz08]

lol. Not too good. I was actually going to post some random image of a guy eating a hat from google images but I decided it wouldn't do well to dwell on it or bring it up.

wise.

Wise, but disappointingly non-hilarious.

Disappointingly non-hilarious doesn't get you lynched.

Jeez, be all serious. Whatever.