Mini 1012: Mafia In Soraville (Game Over!)

[Friend]

Oh. /confirm in thread.

Well, /confirm.

[Friend]

No, the setup is closed. We don't know the possible roles in the game. However, the mod makes (or tries to make) a balanced setup - it's not like he just picks roles randomly. Roles randomly distributed means that the roles in the setup the mod has made were randomly given to players, if that makes sense.

PREVIEW: ARGH ninja'd by mod. I'll post it anyways.

[Friend]

hey esurio!

P.S. Twomz, your avatar... <3

[Friend]

I think you mean seven.

VOTE: Haschel Cedricson 'cause he doesn't know how to count.

[Friend]

DAMN IT

UNVOTE: Haschel Cedricson 'cause I was wrong.

[Friend]

VOTE: esuriospiritus then for the ass-whooping he handed to me in our last game.

[Friend]

Twomz...again, <3

Seriously, though, How to Train Your Dragon was fucking incredible.

[Friend]

Kov, why are you so afraid about Twomz OMGUS-ing you?

[Friend]

Hm.

UNVOTE: esuriospiritus
VOTE: DemonHybrid

Jumping all over that seems way too opportunistic.

[Friend]

Also:

Who the hell asks about their own role on page two?

Jack is not a VI - I've read games that he's in. You assuming that he is, in fact, telling the truth here feels suspect.

[Friend]

Vote: Friend

1) Player A claims mafia, setting a trap for someone to vote him.
2) Player B falls for it and votes Player A.

Anyone could see that's what Jack was doing. So technically, the one jumping on an easy target is, in fact, Friend: the person voting for Player B.

---

Now's the time to mention to the other players that many of us know each other from another place. Hello Fugi, r2r, Demon, MvK and TL. And soras.

I'm confused. So DemonHybrid falling for said trap is townie in your eyes, but me voting him for it is not?

DemonHybrid apparently still took it somewhat seriously, though, take a look:

Too much experience, too noobish of a mistake.

You wouldn't refer to a gambit like that as a "noobish mistake" if you understood what was going on.

Vote: Fugitive[/b[ This is not an RVS vote. He's really dangerous as scum. We should all keep an eye on him.

Also Jack's post was so obvious. If you think he's actually a traitor...

See Pie's post. =P

Friend's up there on the scum list at the moment despite it being too early, Jack's neutral until he says more.

Waiting for Friend's reply to Pie's post.

Here, Demon blatantly piggybacks after your defense of him, never mentioning me or my vote on him until you show up.

Pie only went for Friend and not DH. I assume this is because Pie just jumped on a non-SH member (LOLBIAS)

Anyways this is retarded. Can we not talk about how Jack got us out of RVS? Any more discussion is useless, and those who pursue it (IE: DH) should be questioned further.

I rest my case Your Honor.

Don't like this one bit - talking about how Jack got us out of RVS is good.

He's saying that DH's normal meta would be to see how obvious Jack would be doing, so he voted for Friend instead. He never once considered DH voting Jack for the same reasons.

IP obviously won't say yes, it'll just make him look stupid.

You're putting words into people's mouths. I don't think he was saying that at all.

I figured DH would see how obvious Jack was being, so I didn't think of this. I see where you're coming from, but I think Friend is more opportunistic.

So, you're fine with DH voting Jack, but not fine with Friend voting for DH using the exact logic that you gave for voting Friend?

This is getting confusing.

I don't find DH voting Jack scummy.
I find Friend jumping onto an easy target scummy.

It may be similar logic, but it has to do with timing as well.

But DH was jumping onto an easy target, so it's the same idea. I'm not sure quite what the difference here is.

EBOWP: The case on Friend is a good one too. I don't like his apparent assumption that the trap was intended for DH.

That's what it felt like to me. I don't think Demon took it at face value, but rather acted like he did so he could throw the vote down.

[Friend]

It's too obvious for scum to say "Hey, let me jump on someone who claimed Traitor and throw myself out into the open!"

This is WIFOM, really. Have you played any games with Demon?

[Friend]

I'll assume you're referring to me.

What, specifically, are you waiting for?

[Friend]

A: You really want to focus on the fact that I took my vote on Jack "seriously". I really wanted to see how far you'd take your argument on me, and wow, did you ever take it far. Of COURSE I know Jack posted that purposely, no one can be that stupid. In your eyes, you could be town seeing dumb-scum, yeah, but I really think that your seriousness of your vote on me really shines as scummy to me, especially since you took your defense to the extreme here. And it's a bit ironic that you mentioned the "noobish mistake" part...that was the peanut butter in the mouse-trap.

So what did you think Jack was pulling when you voted him if you weren't taking it seriously? Oh, and you keep talking about how your vote was all just a joke, but then this...

Jack... that's like posting "Mod says I'm some kind of serial killer, I don't know what my alignment is, can y'all help?"...

Don't know if I should vote you or not... awaiting explanation.

It's weird, because he registered in 2006.

I'll bite though.

Who the hell asks about their own role on page two?

And this...

I still want Jack to talk though. Who the hell says something like that, in all honesty?

That doesn't exactly scream "non-serious vote" to me.

I don't have anything really to say to your other points - nothing worth mentioning is in there. A lot of that stuff seems like we were misunderstanding each other or it's not important to the subject at hand.

You and esurio turning suspicion onto fugitive, whose playstyle is blunt and concise, reads a little scummy to me too. Guys like that are easy for scum to point at and go "wah he's not explaining himself OMG how scummy" when really it's not.

[Friend]

A: lolseriousness. You're reading way into the prospect of me "taking it seriously" when I never did. I wanted to see who would suspect me the most while I fell for his gambit, and you're it, IMO.

So you purposely fell for his gambit as a gambit of your own? I'm sorry, but I don't believe that for a second. Now you're just covering your own ass.

B: I should've screamed for more attention to my vote on Jack then, but I think that if I did that, I would've attracted town votes instead.

I don't understand this - please elaborate more.

C: Neither of us have talked about Fugitive's scumminess. I simply asked her whether or not she was suspecting him for withholding information. The only people who's scumminess I've elaborated on were yours and Jack's.

Hey, look, it's the same kind of thing I voted DH for. Why would you have information/an opinion that is not of the "hi, I'm a power role and x is town you can NK me nao" variety and withhold that information unless you are scum who is trying to suss out what is a "safe" opinion to have at this time?

Heh.

Since I explained myself, why aren't you suspecting Fugitive more then, esurio?

Diverting attention away from yourself, I see...

[Friend]

A little eager to start putting heat onto people.

That's a good thing, IMO. You're stretching now.

You're feeling a little heated; time to turn the argument against someone else when no one was really talking about him that much (other than Pie, but you didn't mention him; just esurio and I). In fact, going by your logic, I'm surprised you're not pointing at least an eye at IP.

IP didn't act like he was suspicious. If you actually, you know, read my post, you could have noticed that I wasn't suspecting Fugitive for anything.

3rd point: *I've never talked about Fugitive's scumminess. The only people who's scumminess I've elaborated on....

Pretty big mistype, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt for now and assume (OMG) that you were just skimming.

Preview Edit: Esurio: My point is, Friend seems to be jumping the gun a little bit as far as arguments concerning him goes. There's a difference between assumption when it concerns someone relevant to the conversation and assumption when someone isn't. (Nervousness can cause this.)

If the arguments are poor, of course I'm going to defend myself against them. I'm not going to sit back and let you attack me without posting a response.

And yeah, I don't believe that you "fake-fell" for Jack's move for a second based on your posts afterwards. That vote was serious and you turning it into a "gambit" to cover your ass is scummy.

And congrats, Sora. I'm not good enough to get nukes :/

[Friend]

A: It can be...however, it seems too forced in this case. What about his post made you think that he was legit scared to be OMGUS'd and not just joking?

Nothing, really, but even a joke "OMG don't vote me" needs to be explained. It seemed nervous to me so I asked him about it.

How is turning suspicion onto you (who I've suspected all along) an attention-repellent?

[Friend]

Sorry, I must have misinterpreted something w/r/t you and fugitive.

What do you mean by "hmmm" in the above?

[Friend]

Interesting is even more vague.

[Friend]

Actually, I quite like the reactions I myself am getting.

Elaborate on this.

@TheLonging, why scum godfather specifically?

Jack's play, while it is irksome, isn't necessarily scummy IMO.

Twomz, why do you think DH is town?

[Friend]

Demon, you might as well admit now that you didn't try and make a gambit of your own by "falling" for Jack's gambit.

However, my feelings on you are sliightly improving.

Why did you pick Kov over your other scum picks?

[Friend]

>Meta>Meta
>Meta
>Meta
>Meta
>Meta

0/10, good try though

Also, divert attention my ass, I'm listing my scum reads! Dohoho. You're calling me scum for all the wrong reasons. I'm now BWing shit, I'm only agreeing with myself, and I have no clue what fleeting means. Those 2 "scumtells" you listed aren't scumtells in actuality. I'll bite. How am I diverting attention away from me voting you by listing other scum reads? I didn't know we weren't supposed to give out scum reads, and only stick one at a time.

How are any of those reads meta?

You're getting way overdefensive.

Enough for an:
UNVOTE: DemonHybrid
VOTE: TheLonging

[Friend]

I have a big feeling TheLonging is scum even more so than Pie. His vote is very fleeting, agreeable and bandwagony, as well as diverting attention away from his vote by focusing on Jack as well. Easy targeting.

HOW IN THE HELL IS THAT META.

@Twomz: I'm not sure if it's AtE, what TheLonging is doing. AtE is more like "you guys are gonna regret it if you lynch me" or "I'm town, that's all I can say, I guess you guys are just going to lynch me anyways." Stuff like that if you get the gist of it. TheLonging's not doing that - once one person calls him scum he's being way too quick to get angry about it.

[Friend]

Friend: Not THAT post, the post I quoted.

Then why did you toss away his accusations of you as "meta"?

[Friend]

I don't think so at all. Here's the post you were referring to:

Demon, you might as well admit now that you didn't try and make a gambit of your own by "falling" for Jack's gambit.

However, my feelings on you are sliightly improving.

Why did you pick Kov over your other scum picks?

I'd like to see if his inexperience shines through. I know TL and IP from past games...I'd much rather target the weak link.

I asked him about Kov. That was the answer he gave. Nothing about your meta, just about wanting to see if Kov would crack under the pressure, being an inexperienced player.

This was his case against you:

I have a big feeling TheLonging is scum even more so than Pie. His vote is very fleeting, agreeable and bandwagony, as well as diverting attention away from his vote by focusing on Jack as well. Easy targeting.

Nowhere did he ever mention that you're playing against your town meta. Ever.

Therefore your response of "well that's meta and meta's useless" is completely unacceptable.

[Friend]

Not in the way you're making it look like.

You're saying Demon said "TL is calmer as town, he's being defensive, therefore he's scum." Nowhere was that said or even insinuated. Just that you were being overdefensive (you were) and that in itself is scummy.

[Friend]

TheLonging's just turning suspicion away from himself and ignoring my 176.

[Friend]

HOW DOES "I'VE PLAYED GAMES WITH TL BEFORE" = TL IS SCUM BECAUSE OF META

[Friend]

Those things

are

scumtells, though.

You're stretching to make a connection that disproves his argument because you don't want to defend it on your own.

[Friend]

It was more about the easy targeting and overdefensiveness, IMO.

[Friend]

IP, what is your case on Jack?

[Friend]

Yeah, that policy lynching talk is scummy.

UNVOTE: TheLonging
VOTE: InflatablePie

I still really dislike TheLonging though.

[Friend]

Yay, as evidenced by my vote.

[Friend]

Which people on the wagon do you have a bad feeling about?

[Friend]

@r2r: So let's get this straight - you have a "bad feeling" about some players on the wagon, yet of the 4 of us, one you've labeled neutral but then still think he's scummy, you think I'm wagoning for good reasons, and you can't get a read on Jack or Fugitive.

You're making a broad statement but deliberately avoid having to take a stance on any particular player - you got close but you waffled on DH.

@Pie: Do you find what Jack and Fugitive are doing scummy inherently? Why or why not?

[Friend]

Twomz seems oddly cautious.

[Friend]

r2r, why are you so hesitant to throw down a vote?

[Friend]

Hm...maaaaybe he's telling the truth. He feels town to me though whether he is or not.

TheLonging is slowly growing scummier than Pie - not sure if they are indeed buddies, but I feel better about lynching TL than Pie.

unvote, vote: TheLonging

[Friend]

TL is acting like his claim is going to save him. As esurio said, not quite sure what to make of that - feels like a general null-tell though.

I honestly don't know how anyone can be reading IP as scum right now. Go read him in iso. If there's one thing he's done, it's contribute original thoughts to cases on people (iso 0, iso 19). That generates the kind of information that would be anti-scum-win-condition (scum want town to end day 1 with as little information and reads as possible). He also gave his opinion on people without being prompted to (iso 29) when scum would want to keep their options as open as possible right now.

You're acting like scum NEVER do this, when, in fact, this is

exactly

what good scum players do. It's not "against the scum wincon" - IMO, all a good scum player has to do is look pro-town. Whatever looking pro-town requires - lynching scum (bussing), giving town information - is what achieving the scum wincon is all about.

[Friend]

@Fugitive: I LOL'd.

@esurio: What, specifically, has he done that shows that he has thwarted his likelihood of winning if he was indeed scum?

[Friend]

Jack I can't find a townie sounding TL post :/

[Friend]

is that an omgus fos on me jack? I love you too, just don't let your ego get in the way, kinda like when I pinpointed you and Soc as scum in that marathon game

This?

Eh. Don't see how that's any sort of tell.

Blehhh. Can't make up my mind between Pie and TL.

[Friend]

Hah.

Fuck it,

unvote, vote: InflatablePie

Seems like the lynch that's going down today anyways and I support it.

[Friend]

12 pages and you don't have reads enough for a vote?

[Friend]

So, you're useless is what you're saying.

[Friend]

Naw, if Pie flips town, you go tomorrow.

[Friend]

But... but DH said I'm his scumbuddy

I'm not too sure about that.

[Friend]

He didn't say he wanted a Friend lynch, I think. He was dividing the players into who was for and against

his

lynch.

[Friend]

Good to have you back, Haschel.

[Friend]

Why do you find DH suspicious again?

[Friend]

Some good 'ol fashioned FriendReads:

Town

ManfredvonKarma
Fugitive
DemonHybrid

Neutral

esuriospiritus
Jack
Haschel Cedricson
Kov

Scum

ready2rock
Twomz
TheLonging
InflatablePie

Basically in that order from towniest to scummiest. Don't tell me making town-lists is anti-town. It's not.

So I'd be okay with a lynch of any of those 4 at the bottom, preferably IP or TL. I can't get a read on Jack. Twomz feels like he's playing everything too safe and trying to blend in. Same with r2r. Kov I'm not quiiite sure on yet either - getting some scummy vibes, but I haven't really read over a lot of his posts thoroughly. I'm fairly confident about those town reads. DH "falling" for the gambit in the early game was a little scummy but our ensuing argument made me get a warm townie feeling in my heart. MvK has done nothing but be pro-town. Fugitive, while posting little, feels town. Esurio is playing similarly to the way she played in our previous game in which she was scum - that's the only thing that's got me a little sketched out about her. Other than that she's been okay. Haschel's been too lurky (not his fault, I guess) for me to get a read on and his early-game posts fell smack-dab in the middle for me in terms of scumminess. I believe I've talked about both IP and TL already.

[Friend]

Who?

[Friend]

So DH is scum, TL is town, and I'm just going to ignore that last part because it brings in way too much WIFOM?

[Friend]

Well what

would

you do with them?

I'm intrigued by the solid town read on Jack, DH.

[Friend]

Meh, I knew someone would say that. This is more of an MD topic probs but I think scum almost always already know and can tell who the towniest players are. Making lists doesn't change that.

[Friend]

I want to know what song TL was trying to sing up there

[Friend]

r2r, can you just make up your mind already? Why are you leaning towards DHscum? Seems to me you picked the three players people are calling scummy and stuck them in a nice little bracket. Other than that, you've done NOTHING.

[Friend]

Yo, r2r, suspecting people is not a scumtell. If that's all your case consists of you've got some work to do.

[Friend]

Um...the other part of your case is based on DH suspecting Pie for what you think are poor reasons? And I don't see how that quote you posted of his was scummy.

Why do you feel his suspicions are based on "looking pro-town" and not on actual scumhunting? Use quotes. This better be good.

[Friend]

Getting suspicious of Jack for what I consider purely playstyle. It's one of those "ooh look he's not contributing to discussion" suspicions even though he

is.

He's just being concise about it. And proposing a policy lynch, that's blatantly scummy. Jack hasn't done anything to deserve a policy lynch yet - his playstyle may be slightly anti-town but it's not worth lynching someone over.

Using meta to put fugitive on his scumlist. Doesn't sit right.

Somewhat of a shoddy case on TheLonging. A lot of those things you pointed out are big stretches - the RVS talk , the OMGUS FoS-ing (which it wasn't really), the bandwagoning (not a scumtell in and of itself). FTR I think Longing is scummy too but this case seemed thrown together.

Makes a big fuss over DH's mislynch talk, says that he it's not okay to say "no big deal" about mislynching townies D1. But weren't you the one who proposed a policy lynch of Jack? Seems like by the very definition of policy lynching you don't take into account the players' scumminess. This is contradictory - you risk Jack flipping town if you want a policy lynch.

[Friend]

Oh, and DH is probably town so stop wasting time and energy on him.

Stop messing up my town read on you

Nah, DH

is

probably town. Sorry :/

[Friend]

I feel slightly better about Pie. Slightly.

[Friend]

TL - why did you feel you had to wait for a votecount to defend yourself?

[Friend]

Twomz, I'm not getting much from you besides that you think Jack's play is scummy.

[Friend]

As much as I don't like Kov's play, TheLonging's response to his vote was hypocritically scummy:

Because a DH bandwagon will never take off again. I might as well join the bandwagon. If you insist though.

Unvote

Vote: DemonHybrid

I joined the BW because I thought it would be fun

When was BWing a scum tell? At this point, I've seen so many scum never BW, I'm ready to call not joining a lynch a scumtell.

unvote, vote: TheLonging

[Friend]

I think Twomz is scummy but he's not the lynch for today.

[Friend]

I'm torn. Twomz is scummy, yes, but it feels like others are scummier.

unvote, vote: Kov

Like Kov.

[Friend]

Ortiz, what's your case on me again?

[Friend]

Okay, just checking.

[Friend]

A DH/IP scumteam is hard to believe.

[Friend]

Nay, I have a feeling he's frustrated by your playstyle, just as I am.

So, I'll just wait for a bandwagon to build and then hammer to end the day. No one really seems to care that much.

Unless the BW is on Jack, my votes already on him.

I think he's referencing this.

[Friend]

Meh, I still think DH is town. I still think he lied about voting for Jack just to save face, which helps explain the contradiction.

Ortiz if you still think Kov should be lynched put your vote back on him, a DH lynch probably isn't going to happen today and I don't think it's very useful to pursue it at this point in time. We have bigger fish to fry.

[Friend]

JESUS TOO MANY WALLS

Can we just go ahead and lynch Kov please? He's way scummier than DH.

[Friend]

IP?

[Friend]

I see where you're coming from but meh Kov's scummier.

[Friend]

TL seems more scummy because of his general attitude than his actions.

[Friend]

TL's been hinting at a PR the whole game, which is what I assume he's doing here.

[Friend]

Fucking christ, TL, why would you claim here?

Kov, meanwhile, remains scum.

[Friend]

Being a PR =/= you being right about scum.

Kov's scumminess > Pie's scumminess in my eyes but if the wagon does take off I'll join it. I'd just rather have a Kov lynch.

[Friend]

Fugitive why is Kov town?

[Friend]

So if Kov isn't town why won't you also support his lynch?

[Friend]

If you think someone is scum, why wouldn't you even consider voting them or supporting their lynch?

That's all I'm saying.

[Friend]

Alright, I understand.

I'm not saying I wouldn't support a Pie lynch, far from it. It's just I feel more safe with a Kov lynch.

[Friend]

Twomz keeps getting scummier, doesn't he? I just don't think we have time for a Twomzwagon.

[Friend]

At the deadline, the person with the most votes will be lynched (regardless of whether or not they have a majority of the votes).

[Friend]

I'm up for it if we can get it off in time.

[Friend]

I just don't want us to wagon, he claims PR and we have to scramble with a day left on the deadline.

[Friend]

unvote vote: Twomz

[Friend]

Town vs. town.

[Friend]

R2R, who are those bigger fish?

[Friend]

Don't you think Jack's scum though?

[Friend]

holy shit 5 pages!!?!?

Let me reread.

[Friend]

Okay.
Christ, guys. This game is motherfucking CONFUSING.

I am inclined to believe that out of {DH, ortiz, esurio} 1 is scum. By PoE DH seems to be the scummiest but the way he's responding to it feels somehow town. This level of AtE I haven't totally seen from scum.

Between ortiz and esurio....hm. Gotta think on that one.

In the meantime,

vote: Deadline extension

You should all do this ^^

[Friend]

Weird in what way?

[Friend]

Sorry, it was late at night and I was extremely tired, having just gotten home from the beach. I'll be back in like a couple hours and I'll say something about the others.

[Friend]

DH: Do you have any specific examples of scummy things ortiz/MvK did besides the whole neighbor-outing point you bring up?

[Friend]

I still think DH is town.

I think ortiz is scummier than esurio.

Therefore,

vote: ortiz

I'd lynch Pie too, tbh.

Sorry, been away all day and honestly I'm in too many games right now so my play is not up to its normal awesome standard. D2 will be a better day if I'm still around.

[Friend]

Indepth analysis:

95% sure one of DH/ortiz/esurio is scum.

DH is town cause of the way he's reacting to this lynchwagon on him.

Esurio is town partially cause of meta partially cause she hasn't done anything scummy.

That leaves ortiz. PoE motherfuckers.

[Friend]

vote: ortiz

I still think you're scummier than esurio and the DH town flip didn't help you at all either.

[Friend]

Ortiz, if you flip town,

then

I'll think there's a possibility of all three being town.

DH made a solid case on you before he died, also, so it's not like it's only PoE with the neighbors.

[Friend]

Actually, you know what:

vote: Haschel Cedricson

This is way better than ortiz, I've realized.

[Friend]

@Mod: I'm V/LA until Tuesday. Sorry about that.

[Friend]

unvote, vote: Pie

I just realized how Fugi was tunneling him all day. Makes you wonder, doesn't it?

[Friend]

Mhmm.

Jesus I do not have the energy for this game. I'm so glad I'm going VLA.

[Friend]

Hi I'm here, can someone give me a tl;dr of the last 4 pages?

[Friend]

Whoa who are you?

[Friend]

Oh yeah. I just read the other pages. Thank god we have someone active and apparently more intelligent in that slot.

Eh...IP vs. Twomz?

vote: Twomz

That's my call. He's just been so...I'm not sure what the word is. Passive? Reactive? Non-assertive?

As for the neighbors, I'm fairly confident esurio is town, and ortiz is townier than others.

I still am pretty sure Haschel is scum but no one wants to help wagon him with me

[Friend]

Look, I don't want to lynch a claimed PR. I think there's an okay chance he's fakeclaiming, but today is NOT the day to lynch him when we have scummier non-PRs that need to be dealt with.

[Friend]

HC is scummy. That's why I voted him.

[Friend]

That was the hammer?

Meh. It was better than D1.

[Friend]

How so?

[Friend]

Meh I still don't want to lynch TL today.

[Friend]

vote: Haschel Cedricson

I wanted to do this yesterday, glad someone's with me.

[Friend]

Also, I find his insistence on lynching TheLonging scummy - he's a claimed PR. Like I said yesterday, today is not the day.

[Friend]

I think there's a good chance TL is scum, sure. But I don't want to lynch him today.

[Friend]

Oh, really?

Hm hm hm.

Haschel's still scum so it's okay.

[Friend]

TL voted HC before HC voted TL, though

[Friend]

He was scummy yesterday. I don't have the time/energy to make an entire quote-filled case.

[Friend]

Did we just lose?

[Friend]

If so, I am now 0-3 (and possibly 0-4) in my first 4 MS games.

I am a terrible, terrible, scumhunter.

[Friend]

I was a VT FWIW.

[Friend]

So Seb, Pie, and r2r? My guess.

[Friend]

IP quickhammered. He's obvscum.

[Friend]

This game had a little too much mindfuckery for me to handle. Like I said, turns out I'm a terrible Mafia player. Blargh.

[Friend]

Wait, r2r was town? Who was scum?

[Friend]

Jesus. What a bad game. We should have lynched all those players earlier.