Mini 1102 - Rivertown Mafia (Game Over!)

[el simo]

/confirmo

[el simo]

I agree.

On a completely unrelated note I think I'll randomly

Vote: Umbrage

.

[el simo]

Actually el simo's vote was the closest one to possibly having any scum motivation. Why did you pick me and chamber but not mention el simo?

Because then he'd be a hypocrite, and we all know scum are hypocrites.

[el simo]

Every game I've seen has started with someone who doesn't do RVS, and is then bandwagoned. I wanted to shake things up a little.

By.. not doing RVS and getting bandwagoned?

[el simo]

Anyway, my 'stifling discussion' post spawned more discussion than anything so far, so I'm calling it a success.

Doesn't matter how much I call my banana an apple, it still is a banana.

[el simo]

However, el simo's vote just

happened

to "randomly" fall on a developing bandwagon. Interesting, no?

Yup my vote was unrelated to the previous two. Why is this interesting? What are your thoughts on bandwagons that makes this such an interesting occurrence?

[el simo]

As for you, el simo, you said you were randomly voting. It's interesting how your "RANDOM" vote happened to follow the bandwagon. To me, it looks like you're trying to jump on the largest bandwagon and further it without too much (read: any) reasoning. How can you even say it was unrelated? It's interesting because it's too much of a coincidence.

So from this I can assume you think bandwagons are bad?

[el simo]

When did I lie?

I agreed with them yes but that is not why I voted him. Sora is right I was specifically pushing the bandwagon. I want to know why he thinks this is bad and if he doesn't what he is implying by it being too much of a coincidence.

[el simo]

When did I lie?

You said it was a random vote.

That depends on what context you read random in. Was I saying the target of my vote was randomly chosen or was I saying the act of voting was random and irrelevant to the previous content of the game?

[el simo]

Simo: so you are now trying to say that your vote was purposely on umbrage after repeatedly saying it was random?

Ding ding ding I called my vote random once, and that was in the voting post itself. Now who's lying?

Unvote, vote: ortiz

.

[el simo]

This is the worst post in the game so far. You answer your own question: you lied about the reasoning for your vote. Which is alright, I think lying for a pressure vote is often a good play, but you try to make it look like you didn't lie. Which can only mean you have something to hide.

But I didn't lie, you're just reading it wrong.

And I'm not hiding anything I'm just arrogant, I'm not going to let you peg me for doing something I didn't do, that would mean admitting I'm wrong when I'm not.

[el simo]

This is the best post in the game so far. The activity level here is absolutely insane. I'm not going to be able to keep up.

But you said you were suspicious of people for disappearing a few posts ago. Wtf?[/quote]

Good pick up Admiral, now this is actual backtracking.

Scum points for Umbrage.

[el simo]

I was definitely not implying random, I specifically chose those words for a reason. My vote was unrelated because it wasn't there for the same reasons, they were voting for stifling discussion, I was voting to create discussion via pushing a bandwagon.

[el simo]

@el simo: So you were just bandwagoning to encourage discussion?

Pretty much. Was looking for reactions from players but the wagon didn't pick up the current discussion were going no where. This is why I've been asking so many questions.

Still waiting on soras answer.

[el simo]

Why say randomly in my vote post in regards to what? That it was a pressure vote?

[el simo]

Vote: el simo

1. You said you didn't say the vote was random, when you did.

No, you just don't understand sentence structure.

Let me clarify for you.

If a country was having an election, and a citizen just so happened to be walking by an election booth and he decides, with out being influenced by the media or his peers or any other external influence, that he wants to vote. Is this random? Does the fact that the target of his vote was specifically chosen change the fact that the act of voting itself was random?

Also I never said the vote wasn't random. The vote was random, the target wasn't.

3. Obviously, you did lie, which isn't scummy, but denying it is.

No, lying is scummy, denying I lied when I didn't isn't. Claiming I did when I didn't is.

4. You seem to be building a case on me, which implies that the earlier vote was at least semi-serious.

I'm building a case on you? News to me.

5. You voted ortiz when (s)he called you out on contradiction, clearly OMGUS.

So not only do you fail to understand sentence structure, you have terrible understanding of scum tells.

OMGUS means I'm voting he primarily because he is voting me. I'm not. I pointed this out in my vote post. He misrepresented the facts and specifically used a word to make his case look bigger than it is. I did it once, he incorrectly claimed I did it repeatedly. This is a lie, lying is scummy, to claim I am voting him mainly because he is voting me is to completely ignore and disregard the posts where I prove that he is wrong.

Also, despite what you might believe, OMGUS isn't a scum tell, or a town tell, it's a null tell. It is more indicative of your level of experience than your alignment in game.

CONCLUSION: We have a player that disguises his reasons for voting, denies any deception even when it's been clearly pointed out, and attacks a player that made a case on him. We have scum on our hands folks, overcompensating for his nervousness by denying any hint of wrong-doing and going after the players who find him scummy.

Let me paraphrase, "I don't know what I'm talking about."

[el simo]

I agree.

On a completely unrelated note I think I'll randomly

Vote: Umbrage

.

This is what you said. Why did you use the word "randomly"?

Because I decided to ignore the previous seriousness and specific reasons for voting him and randomly bandwagon him. I thought I made this clear but the amount of times I insisted that you were reading it wrong. The previous content of the game had no adherence to my vote and I wasn't acting in random in my decision to bandwagon him. The definition of random is broader than pulling names out a hat.

This is what Umbrage doesn't understand.

[el simo]

I just don't believe you.

vote: el simo

So what do you believe?

[el simo]

Sora, don't vote me based on your own lack of understanding. I am saying the act of voting was random, not the target of the vote. These are two separate actions all together. What you are suggesting is that I chose a random person to vote on, what I actually said was that the decision to cast a vote was random. The point of making this statement was to let people know that I wasn't voting him based on the previously mentioned accusations, regardless of the fact that I agreed with said accusations.

What Umbrages backtrack has to do with ortiz lie, or "misunderstanding" I don't know, but my vote is on ortiz because I want it there and not on Umbrage. Why is this scummy? If it's not, why do you mention it?

And that isn't a good enough answer. How did I bandwagon? How is this different to a good bandwagon? Why are some bandwagons bad and others good? Explain yourself properly please. These questions go to Umbrage as well as he still hasn't answered me either.

Still want Admirals answer too.

[el simo]

To try and help you, I'll make a visual explanation.

What you are doing is assigning the modifier to the end of the sentence.

"On a completely unrelated note I think I'll

randomly

Vote: Umbrage

"

What I meant had it attached to the middle of the sentence.

"On a completely unrelated note

I think I'll randomly

Vote:

Umbrage

"

Note how your explanation of my vote is focusing incorrectly on the target of my vote being random, where as what I meant is focusing on the action of voting itself.

[el simo]

Way to take things completely out of chronological order and context.

[el simo]

Honestly that is such a completely bullshit representation of what is going on.

Unvote, vote: Umbrage

.

I don't believe you can take those quotes so out of context and believe yourself. Towns motivation to misrepresent the truth so horridly? I can't think of any.

[el simo]

I was definitely not implying random

Sora is right I was specifically pushing the bandwagon.

I called my vote random once

The vote was random, the target wasn't.

Because I decided to ignore the previous seriousness and specific reasons for voting him and randomly bandwagon him.

I wasn't acting in random in my decision to bandwagon him.

I... I just don't know what to think...

The first quote was in response to Ortiz claiming that when I called my vote unrelated I was implying it was random, when I wasn't, I was implying it was unrelated.

The second quote doesn't mean anything. The fact that the vote was a bandwagon has no bearing on the fact that the act of voting itself was random, it is the same deal as the target of the vote.

Third quote is correct, the vote was random, the target wasn't. These are two separate actions and are left to two different and the randomness of one has no bearing on the other.

Fourth quote is correct.

Fifth quote is correct because like the target of my vote the bandwagon aspect has nothing to do with the action of placing a vote in the first place, which is what I am claiming was the random element.

I'm going to explain this to you AGAIN, because you just clearly illustrated how little you understand.

When you make a vote, you are making a series of decisions, not just one.

The first decision you make is the decision to vote.

The second decision you make is who you are going to place the vote on.

The third decision you make is the seriousness of your vote, it's aim, what you are trying to achieve with it, do you want to pressure him? Do you want to lynch him? Is it just a placer vote?

What you are claiming is that because the second and third decision weren't random, the first wasn't. This is not true, these decisions are independent of each other and therefore have no bearing on the randomness of the rest.

[el simo]

And now he will quote me saying, "I called my vote unrelated I was implying it was random," and then complain that he doesn't understand what I am saying and I subsequently must be wrong and scum.

[el simo]

unvote: Umbrage

I just made another ranting post about how you don't understand, and then noticed at the bottom of the post you said, "I just don't what to think," which implies I'm right and you don't understand, I guess that can be townie motivation.

Vote: Ortiz

[el simo]

Do you want to explain that discrepancy or do you want to keep on being subtle and vague?

[el simo]

Umbrage you still have not addressed my questions.

[el simo]

Chamber, ortiz pretty much just explained why my vote isn't on Umbrage. The fact that he has admitted he is wrong and explained his misunderstanding also leaves me feeling pretty comfortable with an

unvote[

.

Would also like to wish everybody a belated merry Christmas. Most people read my posts with a lot of negative undertones that I don't usually have, I'm not really a grumpy guy.

Still have lots of unanswered questions from Umbrage, Admiral and sora.

[el simo]

Do you want to explain that discrepancy or do you want to keep on being subtle and vague?

I believe you tried to make a "random" or jokey vote and you copped heat for it and are now trying to explain your way out of it.

Right., the heat you put on me by saying my random vote wasn't random was just too much to bare. Gotcha.

[el simo]

^ what he said

[el simo]

Yeah you imitated it.

[el simo]

Ugh not even sure what I was referring to when I said "initiated it."

[el simo]

1. When I vote, there are only two questions: do I find this person scummy, and does this scummyness warrant a vote? If yes, then I vote. Are you really saying that you decide that you want to vote before you decide who to vote for? That really doesn't make sense, outside of RVS. But that still doesn't make sense: you don't decide the aim of a vote after you decide to vote. We, as human beings, don't act without a reason. We don't perform an action randomly and make up a reason to do it later. That's just silly.

2. The thing that bothers me the most is how you are acting. The first question posed to you concerned why you voted on a bandwagon but said it was random. You could've just admitted you lied about it being random to get a bandwagon. That's more or less what you're saying now: that vote was to get a bandwagon going and lead us out of RVS. Which is fine. But you refused to admit that you lied, or made a mistake, or used ambiguous grammar, or whatever concerning the random part. Basically, you keep saying that this misunderstanding is ALL OUR FAULT and you are NOT TO BLAME AT ALL. Which is a total overreaction. The worst you could have been accused of is trying to end RVS early or using a poor choice of words, neither of which are proper tells. You seem VERY concerned with keeping your reputation in this game as clean as possible, which doesn't make sense unless you have something to hide.

3. So... you voted me when you thought I was on your case, and unvoted when you thought I was off? Can you get any OMGUS than that?

1. Umbrage there are those two questions but that doesn't take out the three decisions you make while you vote. No matter how you do it you still have to decide if you are going to vote, who you are going to vote and how serious it is, I'll give you that order doesn't matter, but you still make those three decisions. There is no skipping it. It doesn't make sense that vote someone you want to lynch with out having decided who it is, you don't target someone you find very suspicious with out deciding whether he warrants a vote or not. These decisions have to be there otherwise it doesn't make sense. At best you can skip the seriousness of it but that isn't recommended for good town play.

2. I'm over reacting? I'm being wagoned (or was) because you claimed my vote wasn't random, despite it being so. You understand from my point of view, you're the one over reacting? You want to lynch me because you think my random vote wasn't random? Good luck with that.

3. No I voted you when I thought you were purposely taking my quotes out of context to show me in a scummy manner, I unvoted you when I realized you were claiming not to understand what I was saying. <- Not OMGUS.

As for Furcolow, I was waiting for this. I IC'd him in a newbie game and defended him to my death. Read it here. I actually suggest the read, otherwise very shortly you will all be pushing Furcolows wagon and I'll end up dying because of it.

If he had admitted straight up it was a joke vote or a vote specifically to push the bandwagon I wouldn't have stayed on his case. He didn't.

But I did. I just maintained that I wasn't lying when I was accused of doing so. You would do the same if you were falsely accused.

[el simo]

Umbrage and Admiral are still ignoring my questions. I don't ask them because I have nothing else to do. I want answers please.

[el simo]

You are still being extremely vague. Why is that a bad thing? Does that mean if I made it really obvious and told everyone I was bandwagoning it wouldn't be scummy? Give me your complete logic here I still don't understand what your thoughts are on the questions I asked.

[el simo]

This isn't the place to be discussing our previous game Furcolow, but yes I want you to improve too, desperately

[el simo]

Furcolow I linked it so they could get a meta on you and to show why you instantly buddied up to me, I didn't link it to discuss the game. I stopped reading after DMZ started wifoming about the night kill, I had him pegged as scum from there and lost interest.

[el simo]

Olinea, purge through the thread again. You've only just revived old points that have already been answered.

As for the strawman, it's not a strawman. I needed to know what he thinks on bandwagons before I could reply, he still has not given me enough information which is why I am still continuously asking him for it so I can reply to his statement appropriately.

[el simo]

Olinea, purge through the thread again. You've only just revived old points that have already been answered.

I revived old points detailing when you made these conflicing statements.

Again, old points that have already been answered, ie things that people brought and things we have discussed. My vote was unrelated to the previous two votes as it was not on Umbrage for the same reasons - I wasn't voting him because he was stifling discussion. It being the third vote doesn't make it related to the two before it.

Furcolow, I'm going to give you some advice to make it easier for us to follow you. Don't post as you read, when you read and find something worth noting, take the number of the post down, make a note of, continue reading. Then when you've finished take your notes compile them into one post and make a case on your targets, preferably in a chronological and coherent manner. This way you'll seem less like the town crazy and more like an active scum hunting player - ie more people are likely to listen to you.

[el simo]

Fur you claim you want to get better but then you ignore our advice. We're trying to help, well I am.

[el simo]

Umbrage, what evidence do you have to suggest Furcolow is scum?

[el simo]

I can't say I disagree with ortiz. Pushing a Furcolow wagon seems to me like an easy mislynch for scum day 2 (he certainly was in our last game). He has literally done nothing other than disagree with Umbrage and Umbrage is already calling for his lynch.

And as ortiz pointed out, I've always maintained back peddling and inconsistent logic to be scum scummy. There isn't really a reason why a townie would contradict himself, they don't have to make up nonsense to try and lynch people.

This and his constant pushing of my wagon over such absurd reasons leans me towards a

vote: Umbrage.

Not sure what I think of Admiral yet, he isn't posting much. Don't know how I feel about Furcolows random vote over wagon pushing, I'd need a good meta on him to make a judgement on that.

Still waiting on Sora, Umbrage and Admiral to answer me.

[el simo]

Your answer provoked more questions sora. I'm not trying to make you contradict yourself I'm trying to get your understanding on bandwagons so that if I need to educate you on the subject matter I can do so, as well as defend myself from implied accusations.

[el simo]

EBWOP: Maybe I should look for bad bandwagons as a starting place for finding scum based on my own definition which I've put into concrete words for the first time just now.

See, I'm not asking these questions just because I find it fun. You pretty much just realised what I was expecting to tell you.

Speaking of analysing bandwagons:

Thirdkoopa's latest post isn't all that cool with me. I understand if he'd just be repeating information but he could at least try to input his opinion into an ongoing discussion, or try to provoke some himself rather than just reacting to the situation. Instead he asks for a summary and places a vote in the latest hoo haa wagon. Scum points for koopa.

As for that summary: they are saying that my reaction to being called out on my random vote shows that I have something to hide. My defence is that they were wrong and I had to defend myself.

Essentially they are saying had I admitted that I was wrong and they were right I wouldn't be scummy. The fact that I wasn't wrong and they weren't right makes this difficult for me to do.

[el simo]

Um slightly pissed not sure how coherent that was.

[el simo]

@ el simo: You are still making this about the fact that you bandwagoned, but that's not a part of my case since I find it a null tell. I am concerned with your misrepresentation of events.

As for that summary: they are saying that my reaction to being called out on my random vote shows that I have something to hide.

orly

1. Putting the decisions in a different order doesn't make sense in your defence. You are saying you decided to bandwagon me THEN you RANDOMLY decided to vote me? This is getting more ridiculous with each post.

I wasn't saying it did I was just explaining how it doesn't matter because you still have to make these three decisions when voting.

2. Again, a straw man. I'm not even going to respond to this.

What else can I say, you're claiming my reaction is scummy, this is just a stupid accusation.

You said I lied.

I said I didn't.

Now I'm scum.

What did you expect me to do when you called me out of lying? Bow down and praise? I wasn't lying and I wasn't going to let you with claiming I did, so what do you do but turn it around and say THAT is why I'm scummy.

3. I still don't see the difference. Either way, in your mind those quotes are still out of context. My post hasn't changed. The only difference is in your perception of the post. When you viewed it as a threat, you voted me. When you thought otherwise, you unvoted.

You don't see the difference? What between purposely misrepresenting something and just not understanding? Well one means you specifically butchered those quotes ignoring my already given explanations of them to try and present me to the town in a scummy light and the other means that you actually didn't understand what I was saying. There is a pretty big difference and none of it has to do with how you are a threat. That post damned yourself more than anything because it showed the town how desperate you are to try and make this case work.

I want to requote something I wrote last night because I reckon it's a good explanation of what is going on, it's surprising the epiphanies you can have after a few too many.

Essentially they are saying had I admitted that I was wrong and they were right I wouldn't be scummy. The fact that I wasn't wrong and they weren't right makes this difficult for me to do.

[el simo]

Well done guys tell Cyberbob he is looking very townie, that will definitely make him stop what he is doing and post more!

[el simo]

Yeah well check his record, he hasn't got away with it.

[el simo]

Yeah well check his record, he hasn't got away with it.

Good. I intend not to let him start.

And I'll

vote: Cyberbob

for evoking stupid anti town policy lynches.

[el simo]

Not to mention that Furcolow is obv easy mislynch scum seeing as the large majority of this site associates inability with scuminess.

[el simo]

It's the worst thing for the town because he is an easy mislynch. I haven't read a game of Furcolows where he hasn't had his wagon pushed by scum. When he does something legitimately scummy I will have no problem voting him off, but I'm not voting because he is a bad player and I'm not letting you deceive the town into doing it either.

You lynch scummy players because they are scummy, not players who aren't good at playing because they can't play.

[el simo]

@el simo

Why do you feel like furcolow is an easy lynch? He doesn't look like it at all to me.

Because as soon as someone votes him he will reply with a wave of OMGUS which someone else will think is a scum tell and will vote him and then he will start complaining about how he should be replaced or how he should be mod killed or how it's all unfair or how he is going to vote himself or AoE the hell out of us and then someone will decided this is a scum tell and vote him for that and then you have genius' like Cyberbob who will push policy lynches on him because he doesn't present his cases in the most coherent sentences and then next thing we know we will have lynch of someone who actually hasn't done anything scummy.

It happens every game. Literally, if he isn't shot at night he goes down in a ball fire, guns blazing at everyone after scum decided to push his wagon off a cliff. He is like a magnet for them.

Furcolow is the burly that chums the waters mafia swim in.

[el simo]

What was your thought process for the vote? I still don't see how it can be random AND an intentional bandwagon.

We are going in circles, if you haven't understood my many illustrations and explanations then there isn't much I can do about it. I decided randomly to vote, disregarding the previous content of the game, decided a bandwagon would be good and chose you to push it on.

You called a bandwagoning vote random, then claimed it was both, which makes absolutely no sense. You became increasingly inscrutable. You were under no suspicion when the issue came up; nobody thought that lying that situation was scummy. But you started churning out bullshit anyway.

But I wasn't lying. This post just proves my point. Had I said you were right I was lying my vote wasn't random I wouldn't be scummy. But this would mean admitting I was wrong when I wasn't. I didn't lie and so I said so and this is why you think I'm scummy. It's stupid reasoning.

3. I still don't see the difference. Either way, in your mind those quotes are still out of context. My post hasn't changed. The only difference is in your perception of the post. When you viewed it as a threat, you voted me. When you thought otherwise, you unvoted.

You don't see the difference? What between purposely misrepresenting something and just not understanding? Well one means you specifically butchered those quotes ignoring my already given explanations of them to try and present me to the town in a scummy light and the other means that you actually didn't understand what I was saying. There is a pretty big difference and none of it has to do with how you are a threat. That post damned yourself more than anything because it showed the town how desperate you are to try and make this case work.

I did that to show how ridiculous your arguments have become. If you feel some quotes have been misrepresented, feel free to point out which ones and how. Trying to slander me by making me appear either scummy or clueless is anti-town.

What you did was take old statements that we've already discussed where I have shown you how you were wrong, thrown them together, and hoped that it would fool the town into thinking that my previous explanations you decided to ignore were wrong.

I've already showed how you misrepresented the situation.

And you reply to this post will probably be something along the lines of but how can it be random and a bandwagon and then I will reply offering another explanation and then you will reply again about how it can't be random and a bandwagon and our argument will never end.

[el simo]

Why can't it be both? Scum can push policy lynches too.

And to answer you, if I thought his policy push was earnest my vote wouldn't be on him. Cyberbob is smarter than to waste a lynch on someone because they aren't good players.

Umbrage I think what chamber was implying is that no random vote is truly random.

[el simo]

Wait nvm I get why it can't be both now.

[el simo]

Yeah, keywords: tongue and cheek.

[el simo]

And to answer you, if I thought his policy push was earnest my vote wouldn't be on him. Cyberbob is smarter than to waste a lynch on someone because they aren't good players.

Yes I am. Wasting a lynch on someone who is

deliberately

not being a good player though? I'm all for that.

I find it hard to believe you think he is doing this deliberately, seeing has he did a good spouting about how he really wants to improve his gameplay.

Meta him, this is how is plays, it's no coy.

[el simo]

Yeah I struggle with the idea of a Koopa lynch. His vote was scummy and his unvote reeked, but that isn't enough for me.

What is concerning is how Ip Man pushes Koopa really hard with out giving us any reasoning and then tells us to find it ourselves. I am actually struggling to find a place to start to explain how scummy this is.

[el simo]

It's like he is trying to make us make the case for him, while he takes all the credit. It's also like he is trying to get us to read him biased wit the mind frame that he is already scum and now we need to find something to justify our thoughts. <- that isn't how you read a player. I'm staying silent Koopa from now until he posts his case.

[el simo]

If I could play in 50 more newbie games I would. I don't know site policy on this, but I really would. I want to get better at this game in terms of posting and character/personal behavior.

[el simo]

^ Yup real VI here guys /sarcasm

[el simo]

Nobody has, I've never been scum.

[el simo]

Because he doesn't take criticism well.

[el simo]

Why? I made a personal critique on him and he obviously didn't like this.

Again,meta him, he is prone to emotional outbreaks like that. Those kinds of posts are exactly what he is talking about in that statement I quoted.

If I could play in 50 more newbie games I would. I don't know site policy on this, but I really would. I want to get better at this game in terms of posting and character/personal behavior.

[el simo]

Now how about you explain his amazing lack of idiocy.

[el simo]

Or should I say, his deliberate bad playing skills.

[el simo]

Because you are making a terrible case on someone who hasn't done anything scummy - naturally I'm not going to allow you to try and push his lynch.

When he does something scummy I will vote him, but he hasn't so I'm not going to and neither should anybody else.

And that doesn't explain anything at all.

[el simo]

Nice deflection bro.

[el simo]

I registered before you bro.

[el simo]

Why do I have editing privileges on my posts? Is this normal?

[el simo]

I'm an alt Bobby boy.

[el simo]

Telling you that sort of defeats the purpose of registering an alt.

[el simo]

Take it up with MeMe.

[el simo]

What gets me most with TK is his sudden jump in activity level after being pressured. This means he was watching the game, which means his lack of activity was deliberate. Trying to dismiss it as a lazy D1 meta doesn't make it any less scummy. On top of that Ip Man raises good points about his attempts to look active and pro town and as I stated early his vote and unvote on Umbrage reeked of scummy intentions.

I can already see the arguments between Ip Man and 3K going in circles and they've barely started, I feel this is because 3k really doesn't have a leg to stand on in this argument.

Yes. It's better than being overly defensive about something not mentioned. If you were town and were called out for lurking in this manner, you should not care... as long as you're telling the truth. Scum have more of a reason to be over-defensive than town.

I agree, I always leave mafia scum open but I don't run around telling people that to cover my activity levels. And besides, this recent raise in post count of yours shows us that not only do you leave the tab open but that it is also quite likely that you sit their and read the game seeing as you were so quick to respond. I don't buy that you leave it open at all, I think you were reading the game but were just intentionally not posting. What with all the random vote and Umbrage wagon and Furcolow VI stuff, it would've made perfect sense for scum to sit on the side lines and let us duke it out.

What I was hoping to see from 3K from Ip Mans pressure was more scum hunting and less scrambling. A simple, sorry been busy here is a reread with my thoughts on case X and case Y and also I noticed this on player Z would have been suffice.

I'm perfectly content with a

vote: ThirdKoopa

.

[el simo]

^ is he playing with us? I hadn't noticed :\

[el simo]

There are only #320 posts :\

A leg to stand on as in I don't know what you real life situation is so I can't judge you on that and you going on about it doesn't help you, all that matters to me is what happens in game. If you're too busy to play replace out, don't keep answering the prods only to give us nothing. You need to stop crying about your life and start playing the game. We shouldn't have to ask you questions to get you posting, you should be taking the initiative and do some scum hunting. Regardless of your personal situation what you have done is scummy, telling us that you are busy with life might make us pity you a bit but it isn't going to make us less suspicious of you.

[el simo]

Has anyone else noticed soras constant parroting? Scum points for sora!

[el simo]

I'm undecided about his bandwagon hopping just yet, his unvote on me did seem genuine, I make this assumption based on his explanation for voting me in his vote post, which clearly shows he didn't understand what I was talking about. Still prefer TK for the mo.

[el simo]

I don't think Cyberbob is scum lurking, I don't think his policy lynch push was scum motivated either, I feel scum wouldn't waited until after a first vote before trying to push an easy mislynch. I would like to see him posting more though, whether he thinks anything we've said is useful or not, a lot has happened, every second person is coming out with new cases on people and there is certainly no lack of content for him to comment on.

[el simo]

To add to Admirals scum buddying comment:

Looking back on it, Umbrage and El Simo both look town (or atleast not scum) and the votes on them came from our lack of anything else to go on.

god you're mimicking what I said earlier

Looks like a soft attempt at distancing, makes a comment that implies negativity and suspicious, but leaves it that with out actually saying it is suspicious (when it is, parroting = scum tell). Also looks like a buddy warning.

[el simo]

Aaaaaye I can't decided where to put my vote now, that comment Admiral brought up has made me completely doubt the case on TK, based solely on the fact that I am now suspicious of Ip Man. At the same time Umbrage has been talking a lot of sense and I'm finding myself leaning towards agreeing with his case.

Unvote

until I can decide where to go.

[el simo]

The 'scum points' I gave him were for a separate reason. I am going to reread him in context as soon as I get the chance to see how much truth there is to my early observation, but with new years 13 hours away I don't think it's going to be any time soon. Please hold out for it.

[el simo]

I never said annoyance was the reason for my vote.

So what is the reason?

Pretty recovered now, will get that reread on Sora done later today.

[el simo]

Vote: Umbrage

vote: oritz

Do I really need to explain to you why self-voting is just about the worst possible thing?

Vote: ortiz1193

vote: ortiz

I'm starting to develop a ping on my scumdar in Oritz's direction. I feel like the vote on him was more serious than it should have been, and the reasons he gave were almost exactly the same as chamber's reasons. To me, the self-vote comes off as a "Hey, guys, this is still a joke! I'ma vote myself just like Umbrage did so you guys know that....! *looks around nervously*"

---

I doubt that was random since it happened to be third on the wagon. Since you are trying to hide the real reason for your vote...

vote: el simo

Actually el simo's vote was the closest one to possibly having any scum motivation. Why did you pick me and chamber but not mention el simo?

As for you, el simo, you said you were randomly voting. It's interesting how your "RANDOM" vote happened to follow the bandwagon. To me, it looks like you're trying to jump on the largest bandwagon and further it without too much (read: any) reasoning. How can you even say it was unrelated? It's interesting because it's too much of a coincidence.

---

vote el simo

Vote: el simo

vote: el simo

Okay, I just totally do not buy what el simo is saying... ....

vote: el simo

...Pretty confident on el simo, people.

---

Note these are all unvotes on me or are meant to show the shift in pressure.

vote Umbrage

unvote ortiz;
vote umbrage

Scum!!!!!!!!:

ThAdmiral
Umbrage

vote: Umbrage.

That being said, I can sort of see where you were coming from with the random thing, not that I like the way you went about it/worded it/(un)intentionally misled. I'm going to

unvote

for now.

---

Vote: ThirdKoopa

vote: ThirdKoopa

.

vote: Thirdkoopa

tl;dr large lack of original content, lots of parroting. Not to mention extreme lack of activity. Generally falls in the direction the town is facing. Only real original content was him defending himself - because he had no one to copy I'm sure.

vote: sora

I think with all that's gone on today and with all the cases been made, this is the one I feel most comfortable with.

[el simo]

Yeah not buying Fugitive. Take a minute to ISO him, you are voting him because of his gameplay, but his gameplay is exactly the same as any other game he has played in, town and scum.

Why is OMGUS scummy? It's not, OMGUS is nooby. Why is making a weak case scummy? It's not, weak cases are nooby. Bad cases where lies have been made and facts have been misrepresented and tells have been over emphasised, these are scummy. He has not done this.

Your tell is not inductive of alignment, it's indicative of experience.

Try again when you have a real scum tell.

[el simo]

I will vote Fur when he does something scummy.

[el simo]

Yeah Umbrage we call it rolefishing and it is generally something that is said to be a scum tell - as they are the only ones that should be looking for power roles.

And yes, I'm agreeing with Umbrage again, but he's right. There's a difference between finding someone town/not scum and soft-defending them when someone else builds a case on said person.

I am still yet to see a case on him. The only two arguments made against him sum up to he is a learning player. I won't let him garner suspicion because other players can't tell between scum and noob.

El simo says that's a scum-tell. I learn fast. >_>

someone listened to me

[el simo]

I love how you want us to lynch you but don't want to claim.

[el simo]

You still have a chance to prove us wrong.

[el simo]

I'm still here, I still haven't had time to read. Give me one more week and I'll be back at school, and I'll have much more consistent access to a computer.

Boy I sure am looking forward to this read...

[el simo]

I don't know I've never been one to use my gut in this game, Admiral. If a tell is committed and my gut tells me not to vote him I'm only going to be distracted by him as long as he is alive.

Scum tell is scum tell, gut feeling or no. My vote stays.

[el simo]

Right so you failed in an attempt to analyse something but you post the results anyway because?

[el simo]

Olinea, Furcolow is NOT an alt.

Ip Man, my point was that you are making reads on an admittedly failed analysis. In other words your failed analysis is now the basis of your new reads. I don't get it, it doesn't make much sense.

[el simo]

^truth

I'd still prefer a sora lynch but I really hate how quickly TK pops up when he name is mentioned and how quickly he disappears when the focus shifts off him. I wouldn't have a problem hammering him to avoid a no lynch, he's probably second on my list. The only reason sora jumped ahead of him is because my recently found suspicion of Ip Man makes me nervous about the validity of the case he built against 3K.

Also interesting to note that his top three suspects are the three flaking most heat from the town. Nice set up for an easy hammer.

[el simo]

Great two votes hopped off TK now we are no where near a lynch. We need to stop arguing and compromise on a lynch or we won't get one.

I want Sora gone but as I've stated I could go with 3K should push come to shove.

[el simo]

don't much like el simo pushing the deadline paranoia thing + the "I want x gone but if I

really have to

would go with y" thing either

Yeah well I'd rather get down to business than faff about people who are a lot less likely to be today's lynches. Also you are taking my 3K comment out of context, I've stated all of the latter day that he is suspicious and the only reason he dropped on my list was my suspicion of Sugar Pie Ip Man 5000. It's not, if I really have to, it's I have no problem lynching my 2nd target over no one.

[el simo]

Hell, hit me with all three. Stick me in the gas chamber, too.

Stop fucking crying I'm the ONLY ONE voting you ffs. Stop being a hopeless bum and play the damned game. You signed up for this now see it through.

[el simo]

Right, didn't see your post before I posted.

[el simo]

Hell, hit me with all three. Stick me in the gas chamber, too.

Stop fucking crying I'm the ONLY ONE voting you ffs. Stop being a hopeless bum and play the damned game. You signed up for this now see it through.

People like you make me not want to play this game.

People like YOU make me want to run around Bosnia shooting everything that breathes.

[el simo]

What, I make you play scummy?

[el simo]

No I'm not is not a defence. You might as well start saying, "I know you are but what am I?"

Stop telling us you aren't scummy, clearly that isn't working. SHOW us you're not scummy, stop doing nothing, parroting people and hopping bandwagons and start actively posting, taking part in our discussions, produce some original content, hunt scum dagnabbit.

People are going to find you scummy in every game you play. Hell I was just attacked because of a misunderstanding over the use of the word random, you didn't see me go running and crying, giving up telling everybody to lynch me. Fuck sora, have some common sense.

[el simo]

I don't react positively.

Great to know, I don't react positively when people give up and refuse to help the town when they are called scum, with out even an attempt to defend themselves, other than saying, "I'm not scum."

[el simo]

Well sora that is the nature of an argument, we have a disagreement and we whack each other around the head until someone claims victory by majority decision.

[el simo]

Just got back from school/work, I have to eat and write an essay (two but doubt that'll happen >_>). I'll

unvote, vote soras

. Don't have time to talk much or read the last two pages yada yada but I'll check again in a few hours and make sure my votes in the right place for a lynch to go through.

lmao ortiz you best be prepared tomorrow son

^

I don't like the case on Umbrage (admittedly haven't read most of it, just seems like waffles to me) and I agree with him about the softclaim, I know this contradicts my previous statement about rolefishing being scummy, because it is, but I've never seen a soft claim like this before and quite honestly I don't like it, so I don't blame Umbrage for asking questions about it.

All thought to be fair Umbrage, that is your second warning. I don't like to see you replacing out. Also I find this a huge town tell, frustrated scum don't replace out, not unless they are on the brink of being lynched - which he wasn't. And if he was I wasn't aware because I've had absolute no interest in lynching him today.

#564 by sora is what I've been wanting from him. Good original content, I'll address this post later.

Great, an extension. Thanks Diddin!

Yeah also I know I got quite personal with sora but I didn't mean this as an attack on him, just an attack on how he was playing. Regardless it seemed to have worked. Unlike every other hissy here, I wouldn't mind playing again with any of you <3 d'awww!

And now I get to the end of the thread and realize the consequences of a weeks extension:

Just got back from school/work, I have to eat and write an essay (two but doubt that'll happen >_>). I'll

unvote, vote soras

. Don't have time to talk much or read the last two pages yada yada but I'll check again in a few hours and make sure my votes in the right place for a lynch to go through.

Means we don't have to wait until tomorrow to deal with this ^

unvote, vote: ortiz1193

Doing that so close to deadline? idunlykit

I can elaborate if you really want but I just got back from fishing and fishing always makes me sleepy.

So yeah this is just my random train of thought while I read through the new posts since I left. More details after maybe dinner and a nap

[el simo]

Eeee that nap I took last night ended up taking all night and I'm off fishing again this time for the whole of the day, then I've got a bbq when I get back. WILL post tonight.

[el simo]

Means we don't have to wait until tomorrow to deal with this ^

unvote, vote: ortiz1193

Doing that so close to deadline? idunlykit

Do it. (Forgot to copy the elaborate part)

I voted because it was so close to deadline. I've explained this 100 times but please do post. Not a single person has posted reasoning for me being scum.

It's not your vote that is scummy it's the situation surrounded it. You don't both to explain your suspicion on even state that you had any, then you continue to say that you will check in a few hours to make sure your vote is in the right place for a lynch to happen.

The rest of us decided to compromise our target to get a lynch that we can all be happy with and were posting actively, you decided just to put your vote anywhere to make sure we lynch someone and then disappear for a while. You also tried to excuse your lack of input and limited activity during the few hours before our deadline because you had to eat and write an essay, setting you up to hop bandwagons willy nilly with out having to explain your actions at all because you have to get back to writing that essay and eating that food.

Just no good bro, not this close to deadline. Hoping for an extra phase to come up with an explanation for you votes?

[el simo]

Sora:

Ortiz was first to move off my wagon, you were last. Ortiz did it before I lost the heat, you did it after it moved to Umbrage, that is what I was trying to illustrate in my post about you.

As for ISO51 and 63, I don't see the similarity.

---

Eh that wasn't as much catching up as I thought.

[el simo]

Sorry about the activity; yesterday was the first day of school and as soon as I got home, I went to sleep for the day (pretty much).

I still need to find a place for my vote, I realize that, and I'm also still open to questions, which I'm sure you have.

Yes I have one, how can you having me scum or leaning towards scum, neutral and town or leaning towards town?

[el simo]

Ok this settles it for me. I literally could not have played the game without being called scum for it. a) I don't post at all and get called scum for lurking b) I keep my vote on CB and get called scum for contributing to a no lynch going through by not switching to the person I said I would switch to had a high chance of being lynched c) I switch votes LIKE I SAID I WAS GOING TO and get called scum for switching or d) I don't post about why I wasn't going to get to stay on and defend myself and just make a post that says "unvote, vote soras" which would be 10x worse.

I also said I would do what was necessary to get a lynch through. It's called not being an idiot. TK and Soras both had a ton of connections and votes/unvotes on them. A lynch of either of them is better than no lynching on Day 1.

I can not defend myself from this. It seems so obviously clear to me and 2 of my 3 scumreads are voting me.

A) so post more B) this is just not true, you are not scummy for wanting to lynch someone else C) fuck have some sense ortiz, how can you say this when I haven't even replied to your defence of the accusations? Honestly, fucking hell. C is wrong because now that you've shown me how I was wrong I understand your view and realize it's NOT scummy, so next time before having a rant wait for a reply buddy. D) doesn't matter, point is you had LA and planning to vote who ever to get a lynch.

The rest of us decided to compromise our target to get a lynch that we can all be happy with and were posting actively, you decided just to put your vote anywhere to make sure we lynch someone and then disappear for a while. You also tried to excuse your lack of input and limited activity during the few hours before our deadline because you had to eat and write an essay, setting you up to hop bandwagons willy nilly with out having to explain your actions at all because you have to get back to writing that essay and eating that food.

a while = two hours

setting me to hop wagons = setting me to up to help a lynch go through

without having to explain your actions =

If you were only going to be inactive for two hours why did you bother rush posting and voting in the first place, when you could have just come back and made a better post after you've ate and written your essay?

Yeah - this isn't necessarily a good thing. Like I said we were all compromising on our targets, you said make sure your vote is in the right place for a lynch - ie who ever is at majority at the time. <- scummy

tl;dr

ortiz incorrectly predicts our response and has a rant about it

[el simo]

c) Seriously? That was like the 3rd time I've repeated the exact same thing... the "rant" was because I had already posted my reasoning and you had still made your post about it.

Yes and thus I was wrong as I didn't notice.

It would be late and I wouldn't have time to do anything besides jump on the leading bandwagon for the same reason anyway.

I still say there's nothing wrong with that. In fact, what I did pretty much was compromising. I was just changing my vote to compromise with who everyone else decided. The two choices were TK and Soras who both have had a ton of connections/actions surrounding them. I was fine lynching either one of them to get the lynch through.

Jumping on the leading bandwagon isn't compromising it's opportunistic scum.

[el simo]

zdenek, why are you voting thadmiral when he has less S than ortiz on your list, with ortiz being a higher lynch candidate near deadline?
this makes it look like you are scum with ortiz

And by some margin too! I would like an answer to this question.

[el simo]

Jumping on the leading bandwagon isn't compromising it's opportunistic scum.

To be fair, it could be both. In the context of how he did it though, it does seem scummy.

Ehh, Fugi's kind of right, oritz did receive some quick votes once deadline got extended. I understand why (hell, I voted him as well) but it still seems odd looking back. I'm honestly unsure about how to feel, although Z's voting of Admiral over his higher scumread does seem off as well. If one flips scum, I'll be highly suspicious of the other (although less so if Z flips scum than if oritz flips scum).

I still say 3K's slot is a good lynch. Going with my gut from earlier, plus we save diddin the trouble of finding another replacement. (b' ')b

Yeah I should clarify that my suspicion of ortiz has cleared up by quite a bit now that I realize he was suspicious of sora, my vote is just on him atm because I don't know where else I want it to be.

Z's last post is good but iirc he didn't say I was scummy for posting 5 times in a row, just that it wasn't helping.

[el simo]

I'm not happy with a sora lynch, although if he doesn't start posting that is likely to change as he is going back into crap mode after pressures dropped off him, which is scummy.

But yes I agree the day is dragging, we need to get a lynch going. At the moment I wouldn't feel comfortable with any other than ortiz.

[el simo]

Yet you claim that simo helped you out in that game.

You didn't read the whole game. I pursued him at first until I realized I was being stupid and then defended the rest of the day.

In the one Furcolow scum game I read he fake claimed detective and was lynched.

My suspicion of him in that game was based on a failed meta investigation.

I wasn't defending his claim, I was defending his lynch so that he could have a chance to prove his claim.

I definitely did help him out that game.

[el simo]

Although it is interesting of you to note this, because in that game scum tried to push my wagon based on my relationship with Furcolow. Scum points for Olinea!

[el simo]

Simo, point out where I called you scummy and tried to push your wagon.

This case was against Furcolow, not you. I don't view getting buddied as a scumtell.

Your pushing Furcolow based on his relationship with me.

[el simo]

I don't like el simo's reaction to Olinea's efforts there. Olinea looks like he's legitimately trying to scumhunt. el simo giving him scumpoints because of what the scum in the other game did + the fact that Olinea isn't pushing el simo at all is definitely an overreaction.

What, that doesn't make sense. I'm also trying to scum hunt, I'm using documented evidence about scum and using it as a tell. How come is scum hunting (albeit incorrect) is legitimate but mine isn't?

Do you disagree with my tell?

Then say so and argue that.

Over reaction? Please. It's a legitimate tell.

I'm still ok putting down a 3K hammer at the deadline.

[el simo]

I don't understand your tell then. Olinea went out of his way to find out if that game went like Furcolow said it did, and you came in and said something along the lines of "scum tried to push my wagon in that game, scumpoints for you." Olinea wasn't even casting suspicion on you from what I could tell, and I just don't see where that came from. If I'm misunderstanding the situation tell me, but I don't even see a scumtell there. Your next post tried to explain it but I didn't get it apparently. From my understanding, yes you overreacted to him questioning Furcolow like he was pushing you, which he wasn't.

Also, this is WIFOM, but Olinea looking to another game to validate someone's claims is about as town as it gets.

Scum tried to push my wagon based on my relationship with Furcolow, he is doing the same thing just based on Furcolows relationship with me, it's two sides of the same coin.

And it wasn't an over reaction, I didn't vote him or call him scum or OMGUS or anything, I just saw something and made a note of it.

[el simo]

Good luck voting all of us at once.

[el simo]

"heads up, did you catch this?".

Right, that way others can take it and run with out you getting too involved, yeah?

[el simo]

El Simo, what do you think of Olinea?

Probably the only town read I have, based purely on a lack of scumminess. This game is a bitch because we've let day 1 go on for so long that almost everyone alive can be argued for as day 1s lynch bar O.

"heads up, did you catch this?".

Right, that way others can take it and run with out you getting too involved, yeah?

Pretty sure this is the most involved I've gotten in a case thus far into the game.

Commentary is welcome but I don't see Furcolow taking a liking to you as grounds to push a lynch on

either

of you. Your reaction, similar to Soras and TK, would comprise a large part of any case I could see on you. I hadn't even considered you as today's lynch, nor do I now.

The most involved you've been in the game is just a heads up did you catch this for the rest of the town?

And pushing the lynch is irrelevant to me, you were trying to cast him in a scummy manner based on an incomplete meta read and a one off comment about my defending his claim - a comment not relevant to this game as the only thing that post discussed was our previous game.

[el simo]

@ el simo: I think your case on olinea is a bit of a stretch.

El Simo, what do you think of Olinea?

Probably the only town read I have, based purely on a lack of scumminess.

[el simo]

Third Koopa wasn't replaced? Geez here is our lynch guys.

unvote, vote: Third Koopa

[el simo]

Okay, Day 1 has gone on long enough. TK may have been a

neutral read

of mine, but it seems as though he's the only wagon that's going to go through. A vote anywhere else, seeing as how the new deadline is coming up (I think), would do no good. So, I'm going to

vote: TK

.

This game is going to completely stall unless we can get it moving a little. TK is a decent lynch regardless.

Right back into it aye ^

That post pretty much refutes any effort you put into being more pro town and has just made you my target day 2.

Actually, do we have time to lynch him today? We targeted him, he cried, I bitched, he improved, we ignored him and he went straight back to his old scummy game.

I'm going to try it.

unvote, vote: sorasgood

We gave you a chance, you used it while you were under the heat, we moved on and so apparently so did you, returning to your old scummy game. PLEASE don't take this personally and have another cry. In fact I would like you to note TK's attitude towards being lynched, you'd do well to adopt it in situations like that.

[el simo]

Eh I said I'd hammer TK when the time comes if we couldn't do sora. I don't think he has anything else to say, he has claimed, he's the last to post so he's read the recent posts, was also a good point about his activity level.

unvote, vote: Thirdkoopa

And that's the hammer.

[el simo]

The bitching part was directed at myself, was I trying to condescend myself too?

[el simo]

Great use of logic.

[el simo]

Simo's attack on me for checking out Furcolow's play towards the end of D1 was nothing short of suspicious,

I never attacked you, I gave you scum points for bringing up an inaccurate meta to try and cast a player in a suspicious light. Do note I listed you as my only town read.

I don't think we have a vig, not with a body guard. I think 3 scum 1 sk with the body guard there to try and balance out the SK, I've played in set ups like this many times before.

Pies VCA sounds pretty reasonable to me, I can't find any reasons to disagree with.

Don't know why Cyberbob and sora were killed, although now that I think about it Cyberbob was playing a very docterish game. Sora though was my main target today and I'm certain I could've had him lynched, so this is a surprise to see, not only dead but as dead town too.

In light of last nights events, ortiz' rushed and opportunistic vote to lynch sora (read: town) yesterday is standing out for me, Cyberbob was pretty sure on ortiz too and now that we know he was town we can read his views as unbiased and in with genuine best interest for the town.

Vote: ortiz

[el simo]

You have my scum read, I'm sticking to it.

Vote: Ortiz.

And yeah the reason I believed there to be an SK because I just modded a game (just ended) that was 3 scum, SK + 1 town power role. Guess that wasn't the case though.

[el simo]

I'm not really seeing the case on Z, something about Umbrage unusually aggressive? Anything else? Pie was pretty sure on him but he was also pretty sure on Ortiz and Ortiz I can actually see a case on so at this point in time I'd really prefer him.

I understand Fugi's post on him, his vote yesterday didn't seem genuine and it seems I missed his post pushing for a no lynch - this would only advantage scum as we'd end the day prematurely gaining no information and only another death. So this also casts Furc in a scummy light, so scum points for him, but if I may be honest I'm not to concerned about it because I'm almost sure it's because he didn't realize the consequences as opposed to trying to screw town over. Having said that, it casts Z in an even scummier light because he took the idea and tried to push it, or "consider it," when everyone else either ignored it or shot it down - for obvious reasons.

I guess I can see a case on Z.

unvote, vote: Zdenek.

Also, Thads vote on Ortiz doesn't seem genuine to me and according to most players scum list Ortiz was entirely a possible lynch yesterday. I think this was an attempt at trying to look pro town by voting said scummy player and at the same time distancing from him should either of them flip scum. So I would still definitely consider an Ortiz lynch if anyone is interested.

[el simo]

If you weren't pushing it why did you want us to consider it?

[el simo]

Goooo toooown D:

[el simo]

DAMNIT FURCOLOW.

Good effort guys..

[el simo]

God damnit people think for one second, IF FURCOLOW WAS SCUM THEY WOULDN'T HAVE EVER KILLED ME.

:'<

Good effort though, it was a fun game. I struggled to get a good read until Ortiz' lynch post. After this game and my recent mod game I'm never not lynching someone in situations like that again.

[el simo]

I was starting to suspect I had been kept alive due to reading the wrong people in the wrong way.

I had this same feeling, and because I didn't see the case on Z I decided I'd make my own case on him because I doubted myself about Ortiz so thought hell the rest must be right.