Mini 1108 - Mutiny on the High Seas - Game Over

[Umbrage]

Vote: Shadow

Ahoy, me matey! Tis nice to fine'ly play a proper game wit ye!

As well, I be proposin we be talkin like dis fer da hole game! What say ye?

[Umbrage]

Aye, dat's a neat way o votin!

VOTE: Shadow1psc

Mooch bettar!

[Umbrage]

Ye shan't be tellin me not ta mooch if I feels like't, ya land-lubbing salt-swirling rum-hatin cut-throat!

[Umbrage]

But I love rum ._.

Well, ye convinced me!

Unvote

Let's BOTH 'ave some rum, den, shall we?

[Umbrage]

4 - Any and all votes will be counted, if you wish to waste a day phase voting for someone not in the game, that's fine by me.

VOTE: The rum

[Umbrage]

Nope.

...

Alrighty, I'll do de askin.

Why wood ye be votin for me mate?

[Umbrage]

I can take two votes on it, it's a funny joke. Three votes becomes a distraction.

Now... waaat sorta crrrazy-assss rule wood DAT be, eh?

I'mmm... a weeeny bit drunk rum de from. But I can still spot de scum when it's bein all scummy like dat!

VOTE: Nexus

An Liar... if you likes de rum... den...

den...

I love ya matey.

[Umbrage]

Bah. Typin in me accent ain't scummy.

And it looks like I forgots to UNVOTE: The rum in order to VOTE: Nexus.

Why you bein against me accent 'n joke votin? Dat's just plain mean. Tis RVS, loosen up. 'Ave some rum.

[Umbrage]

I be fer a name claim jus coz Nexus 'n Shadow are so against it. But me not picky.

[Umbrage]

Vote: Nexus

because random voting and talking in an accent are scummy

Also, I'm against a nameclaim since it won't help town out all that much since scum were probably either given fakeclaims or roles that don't necessarily that their scum. Its probably just going to confuse town more than help it.

I's da one dats bin talkin in de accent!

Dis post is lookin mighty suspishus ta me! 'Ow 'ould ye know dat de scum were given der fakeclaims?

Flubber McBlubber is not a pirate anyone has ever heard of.
Therefore he is not going to be a role.

'Ow many pirates 'ave you 'eard of den? You mean dat if someone's name is obscure, den dey're lyin'? Dat's crazy, dere aren't dat many pirates dat we'd all know, 'sides o'course Long John Silver and Capt. Jack Sparrow.

[Umbrage]

'An if y'all feel dat me accent is causin' some 'arm, den I'll be glad ta stop. I don't tink it be too 'ard to read, dough.

[Umbrage]

As much as I would like to call you scum for this idiotic line of questioning, you just got a townread too :/
fml

unvote

Vote: IS

An' sorry fer triple postin', boot dis 'ere is not a good post. Tis a scummy one.

First ye say I's town fer no good reason. Den you say you'd LIKES to say Liar's scum (why?), but youse has a town read on 'im too? Ye can say later dat ye always tought he was scum if he gets a wagon. I smells a scum wantin' ta back out of a tight spot.

UNVOTE: Nexus

VOTE: chesskid3

[Umbrage]

ok
how about
fictional/non-fictional/what age of piracy your pirate is from claim?
I want to narrow down fakeclaims
without giving any real information to scum

Jus' a while ago youse was sayin' dat da scum 'ould prob'ly 'ave fakeclaims already! So it don't matter what age 'o piracy it's from! You is joost tryin' ta lead us on a wild goose chase!

[Umbrage]

I'd like to say Liar is scum, because his line of questioning was

fucking retarded

, and I'd like to think that no town was stupid enough to ask those questions.

Show some class, matey. If ya don't wants me ta report ya!

But 'ah course t'was doombunny. Ye all looks alike ta me anyway!

[Umbrage]

For god's sakes earlier you were for it because others were so against it
the fuck happened?

I knows why I wants it, I's jus' wond'rin why you want it so much.

And 'retard' ain't no swear. It's a slur, and I won't be havin' it!

So given that I don't believe scum have fakeclaims, does my strategy make more sense?

I's still don't tink da mod 'ould be picky aboot da age 'o piracy an stuff like dat. I's wouldn't be fer it at all 'cept fer Shadow 'n Nexus not likin' it.

True Grit's playing in the background, so I'm talking in a cowboy/pirate hybird.

[Umbrage]

Shiver me timbers, stop postin' while I'm postin'!!!!!!

Now, what's MC 'n PL? I 'eard y'all say dose before, an' I never seen 'em before.

Because my role being either fictional or non-fictional
does not tell me what the other 11 are

'Zactly me point! Dere're fewer famous non-ficshunal pirates den ficshunal ones. So, it be possible dat dere be a few odd 'uns out jus' by chance! An' wantin' ta lynch sommun 'cause dere name ain't right don't sit well wit me.

[Umbrage]

See, I's tinks it'll be more 'elpful to da scum, dan da town. While we're WIFOMin' as ta whether da names mean anytin, da scum'll go fer who looks ta be a PR.

[Umbrage]

Fer de record, as far as fourth page reads go, me tinks chesskid3 is scum.

1) He pushes de mass name claim wit no good reason. Scum makin' up fake claims we can't prove are fake claims is not a good reason to be a'claimin.
2) He calls me town 'cause I agreed wit him. Not good logic dere.
3) He says dat he'd like ta say NC is scum 'cause he didn't agree wit 'im. There's no udder reason he gives for dat.
4) He won't answer NC's questions.
5) He lets the MC issue drop witout mooch complaint. Dis is scummy 'cause it shows he don't care mooch aboot it.

I was only fer de mass claim 'cause I was suspicious o' Shadow 'n MC actin' like dey did. But now, chess is way worse den dem.

An' I second de motion fer de hook o' suspicion! YARRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Umbrage]

what the fuck?
You get every single fucking thing wrong.
I said I'd like to think

LIAR

was scum, but I have a townread.
I ANSWERED NC's questions, unless you'd like to show me where I didn't answer one.
I dropped MC because it's like 7 against 1 for?

I called you town for a post i quoted, not because you agreed with me

Your townread is gone.
you chewed it up
swallowed it
and puked it back out
and then crapped on it

^ OMGUS

I called you town for a post i quoted, not because you agreed with me

The post you quoted was the one where I agreed with you.

I said I'd like to think LIAR was scum, but I have a townread.

I meant Liar. Point still stands.

I ANSWERED NC's questions, unless you'd like to show me where I didn't answer one.

and its important you know b/c?

I dropped MC because it's like 7 against 1 for?

It's the way you dropped it that doesn't sit well with me. You fought for it for 2/3 pages, then just went 'whatever'? It's as if you didn't really care about it, or have a strong case for it in the first place.

[Umbrage]

Umbrage: ye were basin' whether ye supported the massclaim or not on the players who were for or against it, rather than considering what ye yerself thought? Take some responsibility for yer answer, you scurvy sea dog. Do you think its a good idea, regardless of what anyone else be sayin?

Chess: Ahoy! I like me Umbrage vote fer now.

I tink t'was something to be discussed, not dismissed out o' hand like dat.

Also, I'll be out for most of tomorrow, I'll probably not get a chance ta post 'till around prevening.

[Umbrage]

Your point that still stands I don't get. Perhaps you could explain it.

Someone agrees with you: they're town.

Someone disagrees with you: they're scum.

Someone builds a case on you: they're scum.

And actually, I'd like that question answered. Why did you want a mass claim?

It's not even about lynching based on the claims

You just... want scum to be forced to fake claim. And then you don't lynch them. I don't get it.

Finally, in just 3 pages, you've already provided a history of backing down unexpectedly.

As much as I would like to call you scum for this idiotic line of questioning...

unvote

ok
how about
fictional/non-fictional/what age of piracy your pirate is from claim?

Your townread is gone... I'm still having trouble seeing Umbrage scum though, even with all the misrep.

The first and third quotes also show a tendency to leave a door open, so you can hop on a wagon if it forms, but stay safely away if it doesn't.

I'm not entirely sure you're scum. But I'm sure enough for now.

[Umbrage]

Da way I understand it, lynchers aren't sapoossed ta be da normal games, are dey?

[Umbrage]

afafuiajfaodsfjaijdfoasjdfaodsjfafd

MC on D1 forces scum to PICK A CLAIM
then
when we have flips
if a claim looks REALLY REALLY OUT OF LINE WITH ALL THE FLIPS
BYE BYE SCUM
JESUS
HOW IS THIS HARD

no townread but not scumread---->nullread duh.

Also I really don't care if you think I'm scum or not, because you're a goddamn VI

It's not even about lynching based on the claims

So... let me git dis straight...

Yer sayin' dat we should all claim, not lynch people based on dere claims, wait until we 'ave a few dead, and THEN lynch people based on dere claims? And meanwhile the scum 'ave everyone's role name and can work on filtering the PRs from the townies?

And you say I'M a VI?

[Umbrage]

No
WE DIDNT mass nameclaim on D1
had we, it would have worked

Why is D1 and D2 for nameclaims different?
Can't you nameclaim last during D1 also?

Secondly how do you know that Mafia will nameclaim similar things?
Suppose that Scum A nameclaims Captain Pickles, and the other claims Captain Jones. How will the flip of Scum A lead us to pick out Captain Jones?

QFT

example
Jack sparrow is probably an autoinclude/who is going to doubt that claim
if scum is claiming last on d4 at mc
claim jacksparrow
win
if we do it d1 they probably wont get to claim last and so won't get to get free towncred with a nice fakeclaim

Actually, I would doubt a Jack Sparrow claim, simply because it's way too obvious. And if there is a Jack Sparrow character, I'd doubt he'd be a VT. So scum would have to claim a PR as well.

Here's the problem with finding alignment from names: we're pirates. I'm willing to bet each one of us has a name that promotes villainy of some sort. Long John Silver could be pro-town, and Jack Sparrow scum. I really don't see any reason for scum to fake-claim in the first place.

[Umbrage]

@ Aurorus Vox:

Are you voting for me simply because I based my support for a mass claim on the reactions of other players?

That's just stupid.

The entire point of an early mass claim is to catch scum off guard.

Terrible.

No, Chesskid.

You don't think that's just a TAD scummy? Not even stopping to consider the benefits?

[Umbrage]

Umbrage: I am voting you because you don't want to give an opinion about massclaim at a relatively early point in the game, which looks to be hyperdefensive.

No, me did give me opinion: I was fer it at first, den I saw dat dere wasn't mooch o' a case fer it 'appenin'. chesskid3 was actin' more scummy den Nexus an' Shadow. I tought aboot it, an' decided it would prob'ly 'elp scum more den town. I's always been givin' me reasons fer tings.

You say you wanted to discuss it, but the fact is you didn't discuss it (the benefits or otherwise) until I pushed you to do so.

'Ave you bin readin' da same game I'm readin'? I done nuthin' but talk aboot da mass claim since page 2!

I don't like how you've tried to say Chess OMGUS'd either, when he actually said he thought you were town (and it was only later that he revoked it to a null read)

Read da tread a'gain. 'E said dat I lost me town read after I attacked 'im. Dat's OMGUS. An' he only said null after I said t'was OMGUS.

"Oh look at how scummy this what he did is!" no, I'll look at what you've done that's scummy thanks. I don't like your reaction to the vote so far, so it'll stay.

What? Am I not sa'post ta defend meself? What 'reaction' is scummy 'ere zactly?

You're sayin' I'm scummy fer findin' udder people's reactions scummy. Dis implies dat you tink Nexus 'n Shadow are town. Is dis true?

[Umbrage]

OK, we're getting to the end of page 5 now, so I guess it's time for me to post reads. I think chesskid3 and Nexus are scummy. The rest could go either way, I have gut reads on them, but nothing solid so I'll let it pass for now.

chesskid3: Comes up with a mass name claim idea out of the blue, and can't follow up with good reasoning for it. Lashes out at players who question him. His reads are determined by who agrees with him.

Nexus: Has contributed nothing useful thus far. Attempted to shoot down the MC idea quickly. Doesn't like 'distractions'. Votes for AV when he meant to vote for me. The impression I get is of someone trying to control the game without getting too involved. By saying 'that's distracting, stop it' and little else, he can easily pass for town without sticking his neck out too far.

I still like my vote on chesskid3. We need more people in here. IS, Jedo, smargaret, this means you. Get back in here and post.

[Umbrage]

No, me did give me opinion: I was fer it at first, den I saw dat dere wasn't mooch o' a case fer it 'appenin'. chesskid3 was actin' more scummy den Nexus an' Shadow. I tought aboot it, an' decided it would prob'ly 'elp scum more den town. I's always been givin' me reasons fer tings.

'Ave you bin readin' da same game I'm readin'? I done nuthin' but talk aboot da mass claim since page 2!

No. You gave your opinion on the other players and used that to decide whether or not massclaim was a good thing. My argument is that you hadn't, until I pointed it out, argued what merits you saw in massclaim (in a contextless, generic way). Your opinion was always by proxy of how other people were acting and what their opinion was. It was impossible to trace what YOU thought was.

Bullshit. I've been debating the merits of the massclaim for ages now. Post 59. Post 64. Post 74. And so on. I didn't make any big long essay of why I thought it was a good or bad idea, sorry. I debated points with the other players as they were brought up.

Read da tread a'gain. 'E said dat I lost me town read after I attacked 'im. Dat's OMGUS. An' he only said null after I said t'was OMGUS.

I'm still having trouble seeing Umbrage scum though, even with all the misrep.
Would you, as scum, attack someone with an early townread on you?

^ OMGUS

?

That's the wrong quote, and I think you know it. +5 scum points go to you.

What? Am I not sa'post ta defend meself? What 'reaction' is scummy 'ere zactly?

You seemed hyperdefensive. The OMGUS was a good example of this - Chess still saw you as town when you accused him of it! And you've now started trying to smear other people instead of defending yourself when it became clear I wasn't letting it drop.

Heh. So, I'm overdefensive, and I'm not defending myself? MAKE UP YOUR MIND!

You're sayin' I'm scummy fer findin' udder people's reactions scummy. Dis implies dat you tink Nexus 'n Shadow are town. Is dis true?

No, it doesn't automatically imply that. There's no reason a scummy person can't find legitimate scummy reactions, and on the other side of the coin, its too early to be giving out townreads.

So then what was scummy about my 'reactions'? You've got to have some sort of reason for voting me.

But in this specific example: you yourself now agree with the idea that Chess asking for a massclaim was a bad idea. If massclaim is a bad idea, why are you criticising these people for saying so immediately? I don't think it's helpful, but I don't think it's awful. I think peoples' reactions to massclaim as an idea are null.

Sigh... No, I think he never should have proposed an MC if he didn't have good reasoning for it. At the time Shadow and Nexus responded, they had no way of knowing whether he had a good reason for it or not. When I voted him, it was clear he didn't. That's a big difference.

Yarr.

*sips tea*

Anything else?

[Umbrage]

Oh, wait! UNVOTE: chesskid3

Get back in here and post.

I posted less than 24 hours ago. I can't help it if you guys have ranted three pages worth of stuff. I won't guarantee more than two or three posts per 24-hour period, and this will probably be my only one for the weekend.

Anyway,

vote: Umbrage

. I see Vox's point and in fact started to suspect Umbrage around the same time for similar reasons. chess is acting like I used to when I thought I had a good idea and

no one would see the (usually bad) reasoning.

That doesn't make him town or scum per se. However, what would normally happen if I was town is that a mafioso would be vocal against me,

manipulating my stupidity

and taking the white knight of

superior reason

, and would end up painting me in a bad light (more so than I already did myself) or get me lynched. I see the same trend here. So,

since I for now assume chess is town, that makes me suspect Umbrage is scum.

If that turns out wrong, I will look at chess.

chess, a mass claim is not a good idea on day 1 (and usually day 2) because it only helps the scum. I just did this argument in another game. The problem with mass claiming early of any kind is that it will only devolve into WIFOM arguments for town (because it's all just baseless information with town) and provide scum some info to manipulate and work with. If scum have more info, they can start to sift probable power roles, use the information to manipulate suspicion onto certain people, and generally confuse town more. Feel free to disagree, but try to keep a level-head about it.

*Addendum because Umbrage posted before I finished: I don't like that last post.

Because I already suspect Umbrage

, it looks like a scum in a corner. They have to spread blame out while they can.

If it turns out Umbrage is town

, that post will receive more attention. I stay with my vote.

It's so nice when the scum reveal themselves like that. Thanks, Jedo!

VOTE: Jedo The Jedi

[Umbrage]

Umbrage, could you provide me a game where you were

mafia

and a game where you were

scum

?

Thank you

wat

[Umbrage]

Bullshit. I've been debating the merits of the massclaim for ages now. Post 59. Post 64. Post 74. And so on. I didn't make any big long essay of why I thought it was a good or bad idea, sorry. I debated points with the other players as they were brought up.

I accept #59 and #64 show you're debating it, which I had missed or forgotten about, but #74 highlights my point. You thought it was a bad idea, but your opinion was that you were FOR it because you didn't like Shadow and Nexus. It feels off to me.

Yes, I've always made it clear that the sole reason I supported an MC was because of the scummy reactions when it was proposed. I really don't see why that is scummy.

That's the wrong quote, and I think you know it. +5 scum points go to you.

You can't just ignore the fact that he had a town read of you when you said he was OMGUS'ing. How can he be saying you're scum when he's saying, clearly, that he thinks you're town?

Because he's trying to spread suspicion of me. His latest post is a great example of that. If I'm lynched, then he can say, "Oh my gut said he was town all along!".

Heh. So, I'm overdefensive, and I'm not defending myself? MAKE UP YOUR MIND!

Sorry, I should be more clear. Hyperdefensive means your reactions are out of proportion to the accusations against you, i.e. you think someone is OMGUSing when they have a town read of you. A "hyperdefence," if I can coin that phrase, is not a good defence. It's a bad defence. And then instead of offering a good defence, you turned to smear.

Besides the 'OMGUS' point, can you site any examples of hyperdefensiveness?

So then what was scummy about my 'reactions'? You've got to have some sort of reason for voting me.

Your reactions are, as stated above, hyperdefensive and smearing.

Please elaborate. Quotations would be nice.

Sigh... No, I think he never should have proposed an MC if he didn't have good reasoning for it. At the time Shadow and Nexus responded, they had no way of knowing whether he had a good reason for it or not. When I voted him, it was clear he didn't. That's a big difference.

Don't you think its possible people would know already whether they think there's a good reason for massclaim D1? If someone says "Hey, let's vote no vote until LYLO," I will know straight away that that I think its a bad idea. I don't need to hear the persons' reasoning for it before I say no. I get that your "No" and their "No" were different. But I think you're assuming that people start the game without any presuppositions about mafiatheory, which I don't think is true.

Sure, it's possible. But if it's so obviously a bad idea, then why didn't they just say why? Let's take your example. If someone said that, then my reaction would be something like: "the scum will eat us alive, why do you think that's a good idea?" instead of "no u suk".

*sips tea*

Anything else?

Tea, eh? Aren't the "East Indian Trading Company" the baddies in Pirates of the Carribean? Hold on; yep, here we go: they represented a counterpoint to the themes of personal freedom represented by pirates and one of their major trades was in...DUN DUN DUNNN...tea!

SCUMSCUMSCUM!

lol

Yarr!

[Umbrage]

hahahahahah after accusing me of omgus
hahahahahahahh
aaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahah
fuck this

Unvote

Vote: umbrage

Goddamnit I don't care about my gut
this is not ok

Heh. You really don't see Jedo as scum? I thought it was pretty obvious.

[Umbrage]

DING DING DING
The actual answer:
Fence-sitting on Umbrage/Chesskid. He appears to take the stance that one of us is scum, without actually taking this stance.
Goes for the easier target, while leaving the door open for an attack on the other person post-mislynch.
That's what was scummy
not
omg he voted for me
omgusomgusomgusscumscumscum

Better. That's one of the things wrong with his post. Also wrong:

1) He goes for the bandwagon that looks to have the most potential right now.
2) He begins to set up tomorrow's lynch (you) when I flip town.
3) He defends you, yet also says that you have bad reasoning.
4) He admits that one of his points against me only exists because he saw me as scummy in the first place, aka he is finding mud to sling at me after he learns I'm the good wagon.
5) He makes precautions against my town flip, because he knows it's going to happen.

So, before you scream 'OMGUS', look at the post in question. I NEVER vote without some damn good reasoning.

[Umbrage]

Players who need to post some content:

Shadow
Nero Cain
smargaret
Internet Stranger

NOW

And chesskid3, do you have to criticize EVERYONE who find you scummy?

[Umbrage]

Considering I'm fairly obvtown, I'd say yes

[Umbrage]

I for one, skim the hell out of them

This, however, IS anti-town.

[Umbrage]

And as for my old games, there's only one that's completed. There's one on-going where I'm dead, and one on-going where I replaced out.

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=15756

It won't do you any good though. I'm changing my playstyle each game. Trying to find something that works and suits me. My first game I was very passive, second game I was way more aggressive, third I tried being more controlling.

[Umbrage]

I don't really see what there is new for me to respond to in Smargaret's post. They merely ask why anyone else isn't paying attention, not directly asking me anything. likewise, I answered #111 as to why I think typing like a pirate is distracting.

I'm pretty sure I'd be called anti town if I typed in text speak, so I don't get why typing like a pirate is any more acceptable. You can derive what is said from both, but apparently one is acceptable and not the other? No. Likewise, you could type in Spanish, as was suggested, but that's simply causing more consternation and unnecessary trouble for all involved.

I could type everything backwards if I wanted to, but it's anti-town at the very least. So, I don't.

[Umbrage]

Nexus, you haven't stuck with a stance all game. Changing your stance the moment you come under attack and in particular the way you voted for Umbrage by waiting for someone to call you on your lack of vote strikes me as very scummy. Coming back and not offering an opinion on everything that's happened is antitown and possibly scummy - all you're doing is reacting to the parts of the game that involve you directly, which allows you to skate past the chesskid/umbrage/vox thing without taking a stance (notice a theme here?). Either you're town and denying us your pov, or you're scum and hoping nobody will notice that you're not committing to a position. Which is it?

This. Couldn't have said it better myself.

[Umbrage]

Just pointing out, Nexus was listed as being in Coney Island when I made my last post.

None of that. I leave tabs open all the time. Means nothing.

[Umbrage]

You thought it was a bad idea, yet you supported it.

No. I thought it was a good idea, but only because of the reason I said.

He thought you were town but you took the slightest challenge to be him calling you scum.

Read over chesskid3, and you'll see a pattern of OMGUS, and reads determined by whether or not they agree with him. It is this pattern that makes me feel his change of opinion on me was OMGUS.

It was when you started saying "But look at Nexus and Shadow, aren't they scummier than me?"

Sorry? I think you're getting confused with my pointing out their reactions that made me support a mass claim. I never tried to redirect attention to them. In fact, they're not even my top scum candidates.

Maybe it was so obvious that they didn't feel the need to elaborate.

Obviously not, since it took up so much discussion.

[Umbrage]

But thinking Chess is OMGUSing you when he thinks your town doesn't sit well, at all.

It's indirect OMGUS.

LONG EXAMPLE INCOMING:

We have three players: A, B, and C. A is scum. A says that B is scummy, and C is town. Later on, a wagon forms on C. Although A would like to hammer C, he cannot do so, since he will contradict and expose himself. chesskid3 is trying to avoid this by not stating definite reads on anyone. Read him in ISO, he rarely puts a firm opinion forth. This allows him to switch targets depending on the wagons at hand. You will see a post where he says I'm town in his gut and scum in his mind. This is as close to calling me scum as he dares to say. Later on, he votes for me, saying he may regret it. This is to cover his ass. I only came into his focus when I attacked him, thus I called OMGUS.

[Umbrage]

@ Liar: You make some good points, enough to make me want to reread chesskid3. However, I don't think he truly believes what he's saying, as you suggested. That's apparent in his push for an MC. He didn't have good reasoning, and didn't try to argue past a certain point; he just let it drop. On the other hand #179 does make him just look touchy, not OMGUSy.

[Umbrage]

Umbridge

Grr.

[Umbrage]

If he's leaving doors open WHY wasn't that your point against him.

First ye say I's town fer no good reason. Den you say you'd LIKES to say Liar's scum (why?), but youse has a town read on 'im too? Ye can say later dat ye always tought he was scum if he gets a wagon. I smells a scum wantin' ta back out of a tight spot.

The first and third quotes also show a tendency to leave a door open, so you can hop on a wagon if it forms, but stay safely away if it doesn't.

Declares the plan is bad but, the "except" shows that he's still for it. He's keeping his options open, not taking a stance, because he's saying "I wouldn't be for it, I don't think it's a good idea" --- "except I am for it." I think its shifty.

How is it shifty when I've held that same position the whole time. Suddenly turning around and saying it was a totally bad idea, that would be shifty. I kept my original POV, but circumstances had changed. You're saying that chesskid3 not having any good reasoning to back up his idea wasn't a major flaw in the plan? I should've just went along with whatever he said?

[Umbrage]

RE: ISO #11
/embarrassment of AV

Hooeyy. I have been completely off the ball. I blame my essay.

---

No you shouldn't have gone along with what anyone had said, you should have had your own reasons and thoughts as regards the MC (which, ironically, you did). But the fact remains that these thoughts of your own - that it was a bad idea - do not mesh with your stance on the massclaim, which was shifty. Explicitly, what I'm suggesting is that I'd have found it less scummy for you to say "I think its a bad idea. I don't support it."

I think you've contradicted yourself and I find contradictions are a useful scumtell, which is why I've pushed you so hard on it, even though it is only a minor thing. But this latest post (specifically the second half, i.e. your utter lack of acknowledgement of any shred of scumminess to your actions) is making it seem like you can't even conceive of why anyone would find you scummy, i.e. making you seem like, as I said earlier, a blinkered townie. Couple that with my mistake (I need to start ISOing again...my recent games have put me out of the habit =_=") and I'm willing to downgrade you from "Scum" to "Null leaning town."

Unvote

This is a bad post. You've tunneled on me the entire game. Now you're trying to make some sort of compromise, like "what you did was scummy but I think you're town" in the hopes that I'll forget all the bad cases you made on me that I shot down. If I contradicted myself, show me where.

But the fact remains that these thoughts of your own - that it was a bad idea - do not mesh with your stance on the massclaim, which was shifty.

I never lied about my stance on the MC. I don't see how I could've made it clearer. This is not a black and white issue. There are points for an MC, and points against. It's silly to only look at one side of the argument. This is the stance I've held since the beginning. I've never had a game where an MC was proposed before. I didn't have an opinion about them to start with. I listened to the opinions of others, and threw in my POV on the matter. You're acting like a person can either be for MCs or against them. Either they are pure good, or pure evil. That's just silly. I have been honest about my thought patterns throughout the game. I never lied. I never misrepresented. Having a change of opinion when there is reason to effect a change of opinion is not scummy.

I think you've contradicted yourself and I find contradictions are a useful scumtell, which is why I've pushed you so hard on it, even though it is only a minor thing.

Is this about my stance on the MC? If so, see above. If not, please clarify what contradictions I've made.

But this latest post (specifically the second half, i.e. your utter lack of acknowledgement of any shred of scumminess to your actions) is making it seem like you can't even conceive of why anyone would find you scummy, i.e. making you seem like, as I said earlier, a blinkered townie.

What exactly am I supposed to acknowledge? So far, there's been no argument you've made where I haven't either put together a solid defence, or outright managed to convince you otherwise. This is smearing. Basically, you're saying that since you haven't managed to put together a good case on me, I'm at fault. I can see why people would think I'm scummy: I mix up the players in this game, I can be distracting with a tendency to ramble and make huge posts, and I often don't express myself clearly enough. But I've never contradicted myself, or done anything that you claim I've done.

But now, suddenly, I look town to you? What the hell? If you had any solid evidence that I'm scum, you wouldn't let it drop. But if you didn't have any solid evidence, you wouldn't say I refuse to acknowledge points made against me.

Up until now, I've been working under the assumption that you're town who hasn't had the time to read my statements properly, or misunderstood a few things. But this post is making me question that. This is a poor cop-out of an invalid scumread.

I want to know who you now think is scum, and why. You've tunneled on me the whole game.

[Umbrage]

But no one else has really done that much up til now that looks that bad because the game's still in the early stages.

So, no opinions on chesskid3, Nexus, anyone else?

Sigh... I just thought of a pretty good reason why AV is town: why would scum want to tunnel on me? When he started, I was probably the most pro-town player in the game. It just doesn't make sense, and his posts seem like honest town to me.

I'm crossing AV off my list of suspects for now. Nexus, chesskid3, and Jedo are way worse. They all need more attention.

More people need to start posting.

Addendum: OMGUS, the way I use it, means creating an attack in response to an attack made on you. It doesn't even have to progress to votes. Chesskid3's change of read on me was in direct response to my attack on him, that's obvious. OMGUS isn't necessarily a scumtell, but it suggests poor scum hunting and emotional play. I see OMGUS as scummy when it's used as a form of defence, as in: "You're scummy!" "Well you're MORE scummy!!!". This is an intentional distraction. You'll notice chesskid3 used large fonts, caps, and wrote in a very passionate, attention-grabbing manner when he made a case on me. I see it as an attempt to shift the focus off of him and onto me.

[Umbrage]

lol
"most pro-town player in the game"
loooooool

Well, who do you think was the most pro-town? And please don't say yourself. Proposing a mass name claim and then flipping out at the slightest hint of suspicion on you is not pro-town.

(Note: I said I WAS most pro-town. As for the most pro-town player now, I'd have to say Liar.)

[Umbrage]

hyperdefensive is not pro-town.

what the fuck?
You get every single fucking thing wrong.
I said I'd like to think

LIAR

was scum, but I have a townread.
I ANSWERED NC's questions, unless you'd like to show me where I didn't answer one.
I dropped MC because it's like 7 against 1 for?

I called you town for a post i quoted, not because you agreed with me

Your townread is gone.
you chewed it up
swallowed it
and puked it back out
and then crapped on it

[Umbrage]

hyperdefensive is not pro-town.

what the fuck?
You get every single fucking thing wrong.
I said I'd like to think

LIAR

was scum, but I have a townread.
I ANSWERED NC's questions, unless you'd like to show me where I didn't answer one.
I dropped MC because it's like 7 against 1 for?

I called you town for a post i quoted, not because you agreed with me

Your townread is gone.
you chewed it up
swallowed it
and puked it back out
and then crapped on it

Your point?

Oh, nothing...

[Umbrage]

I am reading a FOS Nexus and Shadow on the post. How is this keeping his options open?
In addition why would anyone need to keep his options open on a plan that was grounded the moment it poped out of Chesskids mouth?

He's keeping his options open with regards to the plan. I don't know why he'd want to do it, but it was contradictory, which is why I didn't like it.

What about the FOS on Nexus and Shadow? In light of that is it still contradictory?

I believe that was the last point you had not conceded. Just wondering. Do you still read "Null leaning town." on Umbridge. If so why?

Liar, I love you, you're doing a great job in the game, but if you call me Umbridge one more time, I'm going to have to kill you.

[Umbrage]

Heh. We're cool, Liar.

As obnoxious as IS is, he has a point. The scum are likely just sitting on their asses waiting for us to mislynch. I'm not changing my scum read on CK3, but I'm going to ISO some more people shortly. I still like my Jedo vote, his post and disappearance was the single scummiest event in the game so far, although Joan is going for his record.

Or, we can just policy lynch Internet Stranger right now. I gotta say, that's getting more appealing every second.

[Umbrage]

Sorry for the double post, but...

I'm not going after Umbrage, though. Or Liar.
I have townreads on both.

I've been waiting for them to comment on the goings on, and hopefully catch some taking the easy targets, but it's not working.
You want to get a nice pressure wagon going?

Talk about a double take.

I've been waiting for them to comment on the goings on, and hopefully catch some taking the easy targets, but it's not working.

UNVOTE: Jedo the Jedi
VOTE: chesskid3

That pretty much settled it for me.

Tonight, on MotHS, we learn that chesskid3 has been fake scumhunting the whole time. Please stay tuned.

[Umbrage]

Umbrage: What "policy" do you want to use to lynch IS exactly?

The "I don't want to play with offensive players" policy.

In my opinion, there's a flaw with Liar's activity rating system: a lot of players were active for a while, then started lurking.

I'd organize them like this:

Consistently active:

Liar
Umbrage
chesskid3
AurorusVox
Doombunny9
smargaret

Declining activity:

Nexus
Shadow1psc
Nero Cain

Rare activity:

JoanBud
Jedo the Jedi
Internet Stranger

At the beginning of the game, Nexus, Shadow, and NC were major players. However, they seem to have vanished or stopped caring. It's hard to give a set value for their activity. Joan and Jedo haven't done anything. There's a big difference there.

@ IS: Stop saying 'retard'. It's offensive, lower class, and makes you look really bad.

[Umbrage]

[Umbrage]

Umbrage then OMGUS votes Nexus. (Deny it, I dare you.)

Gladly. 1) My vote was made before Nexus realized her mistake and voted me. 2) As far as I'm concerned, it was still RVS.

Blah blah blah massclaim, blah blah blah shiftiness.

You're pretty much copying AV's case now. Read my response(s) to him.

He didn't say he knows. He's speculating. Clearly there are enough mods that give fake claims that it is worth suspecting. Postulating makes someone suspicious? We're all in trouble then.

That post in question implied scum knowledge, at least to me. He wasn't saying "what if the scum have fakeclaims?", he was saying "the scum probably have fakeclaims, so there's no point in a massclaim". There's a big difference.

Not four of your posts before you said Nexus was scum. If you were so sure of that, why are you already switching your vote? If you know a scum, you should stick with them until other people vote for them or another person you suspect starts to get votes. The goal of this game is to lynch scum, not throw your vote on them for a few posts then move it to another person. If you keep doing that (which you thankfully do reign in a little bit), you will eventually have fingered most of the people in the game and be able to say later, "I told you he was scum!" in order to gain credibility.

I'm not sure whether to laugh or groan at this. First of all, people change votes. It happens. It doesn't mean that they don't still suspect the old person. Secondly, I do NOT know that Nexus is scum. I do NOT know that chesskid3 is scum. I notice some people look scummy, and then I make my best guesses. I don't 'know' any scum. That's just silly.

He never said scum would probably have fake claims. chess brings this to your attention, and you acknowledge the mistake with a wave of your hand as you brush it away. Nothing can tarnish your goodness.

Yes, I made a mistake. I admitted the mistake. What else do you expect from me?

I answered the first with my own argument above. (Hounding on bad reasoning to make someone scum...yadda, yadda.)

Not everyone has to be a logical genius to play. If chesskid3 had pushed flawed reasoning, that would be null. But he pushed contradictory reasoning. I still don't know what he attempted to achieve with an MC.

He said he had a town read on you, not because you agreed with him.

When I agreed with him, he had a town read on me. When I attacked him, he got a scum/null read. Correlation may not imply causation, but it's still a pretty big coincidence.

This is all wrong. He thought LIAR was being belligerent, but he had a town read on him (like you).

I corrected that typo later on.

Sometimes people do act scummy even if they aren't. chess thinks so here. It's not far-fetched, nor does it make chess scum.

How do you know what chess was thinking?

Sometimes, you see reason. Sometimes, you realize nobody is going to listen to you anyway so you just give up and move on. This does not make someone scum.

I still feel he let it drop rather quickly and under pressure. If you disagree, fine.

1) I was the third vote with my own reasoning. Nexus had his reasoning (which I don't think was stellar), and Vox had his reasoning (which I state is understandable). How exactly is that a bandwagon? How is it the one with the most potential when from my experience (note the parallel situation) chess is the one the town is likely to lynch because of his bad reasoning?
2) I explained this one just above. I believe chess is town at present, but that could easily be overthrown with more evidence.
3) I defend him because I don't think bad reasoning should be an automatic scum tell. It can certainly trip scum up sometimes, but the fact is that not everybody is trained or experienced in rhetoric and logic. That's why I defend him. He can still have bad reasoning.
4) I don't quite understand this one. I don't think I made a point based on a preconceived notion. (I know there is a latin phrase for that.) Please point it out more specifically. Again, I don't see why you are the "good wagon" much less any wagon at all as I've already pointed out.
5) Again, I think I've been over this. You could definitely flip town. If this is a normal setup, the odds are in your favor for flipping town. Since all I have to go on are your posts (just like everybody else), I could easily be wrong. You are the most scummy person I see based on posts, so I'm voting for you. I believe that's how this game works.

1) AV had just begun his case on me, and chesskid3 was leaning towards my being scum. I was the prime wagon, regardless of any reasoning.
2) But you were operating under the assumption that either chesskid3 or myself was scum. Meaning that if I'm lynched today, you can say "oh well it must be chess" and lynch him.
3) I see your argument now. chesskid3 strikes you more as struggling town than scum. I disagree, but you make a valid point.
4) Near the end you said "because I already suspect Umbrage..." which means that you find points against me because you suspect me, which is flawed logic. This fits in nicely with my being the wagon of choice: as scum, it would be good for you to say I'm scum, therefore you want a case to say I'm scum, therefore you dig up a case while working under the assumption I'm scum.
5) You speak of lynching me, but you don't seem that convinced I'm scum. You really look like you're trying to CYA.

@ AV: Sorry, that was just supposed to be a joke. Everyone does wall o' texts at some point.

[Umbrage]

chesskid3 + Shadow1psc = scum distancing

That is all.

[Umbrage]

Gladly. 1) My vote was made before Nexus realized her mistake and voted me. 2) As far as I'm concerned, it was still RVS.

Really? He had already stated his reasoning for the vote, he just got it on the wrong person. It was only a matter of time before he voted you. Good cover to get your vote in there

as he was typing his

.

You got me, that was my evil plan: taking advantage of the narrow window of opportunity to successfully OMGUS. And I would've gotten away with it too! Or............... it was coincidence. It was RVS. I didn't care who was third on that joke wagon. For me to OMGUS, that implies that I must have taken Nexus' vote on me as a threat. To which I say again: RVS.

You're pretty much copying AV's case now. Read my response(s) to him.

I did read them. They were bad. For example:

@ Aurorus Vox:

Are you voting for me simply because I based my support for a mass claim on the reactions of other players?

That's just stupid.

The entire point of an early mass claim is to catch scum off guard.

You then proceeded to misquote them and ignore the reasons they gave, followed with asking a rhetorical question about their scumminess. Show me where you out-logic him.

Show where I misquoted then.

While I'm here, Liar, I gave one example in my post, but here is another:

Umbrage: I am voting you because you don't want to give an opinion about massclaim at a relatively early point in the game, which looks to be hyperdefensive.

No, me did give me opinion: I was fer it at first, den I saw dat dere wasn't mooch o' a case fer it 'appenin'. chesskid3 was actin' more scummy den Nexus an' Shadow. I tought aboot it, an' decided it would prob'ly 'elp scum more den town. I's always been givin' me reasons fer tings.

He dropped being for the mass claim as quickly as chess did, after being for it for a poor reason in the first place. He still hasn't owned up to that one.

That post in question implied scum knowledge, at least to me. He wasn't saying "what if the scum have fakeclaims?", he was saying "the scum probably have fakeclaims, so there's no point in a massclaim". There's a big difference.

Actually, there was an

or

in there. He was saying that if scum claim it won't be obvious by their name that they are town or scum. For instance, somebody said Elizabeth Swann was scum in a game, but that doesn't mean she will be scum in every game. There's a big difference.

?

I'm not sure whether to laugh or groan at this. First of all, people change votes. It happens. It doesn't mean that they don't still suspect the old person. Secondly, I do NOT know that Nexus is scum. I do NOT know that chesskid3 is scum. I notice some people look scummy, and then I make my best guesses. I don't 'know' any scum. That's just silly.

I know people change their votes, but just jumping from person to person at every new scum tell doesn't help. Pressure is never applied to the suspicious person that way. If you had actually read what I said you would realize that. Also, if you don't KNOW who is scum, then why do you keep calling people "scum" using that exact term?

Yes, I made a mistake. I admitted the mistake. What else do you expect from me?

There's a difference between what you did and what Vox did. Maybe you can compare.

?

Not everyone has to be a logical genius to play. If chesskid3 had pushed flawed reasoning, that would be null. But he pushed contradictory reasoning. I still don't know what he attempted to achieve with an MC.

Contradictory reasoning is an example of flawed reasoning. I don't see why one makes him more scummy than the other.

Well, for one thing: "I still don't know what he attempted to achieve with an MC.". There's reasoning that doesn't hold up under pressure, and there's reasoning that just makes no sense. For example, you can argue the world is flat, which is not true, but you can see how it might seem true, and it will take a lot of work to disprove it. On the other hand, you can argue the entire world is pink, which makes no sense.

When I agreed with him, he had a town read on me. When I attacked him, he got a scum/null read. Correlation may not imply causation, but it's still a pretty big coincidence.

This is a good example of you being evasive. The post in question was a summation of why you thought chess was scum. You deliberately misrepresented him and his logic. That is scummy.

You saying I misrepresented something is not proof of me misrepresenting something. I don't even know what it is I'm supposed to have misrepresented.

I corrected that typo later on.

I accidentally emphasized the wrong point. (I hadn't paid attention to the fact that Liar is not in all-caps.) The point is that Liar was acting in a way that could be viewed as scummy, but he still believed he was town.

How do you know what chess was thinking?

It's called inference.

1) AV had just begun his case on me, and chesskid3 was leaning towards my being scum. I was the prime wagon, regardless of any reasoning.

You had just started to make scummy posts. I can't help it that Vox and I saw it at the same time. chess was not leaning toward you being scum. He kept insisting you were town, and you were aggravating him toward voting you regardless of what he thought.

'Aggravating' him? What does that mean? It was my fault he used OMGUS?

2) But you were operating under the assumption that either chesskid3 or myself was scum. Meaning that if I'm lynched today, you can say "oh well it must be chess" and lynch him.

No, I was operating under the assumption that you were scum. chess was probably the townie who was unfortunately employing bad reasoning which brought him under fire. If I don't reevaluate that later in light of further evidence, I would be doing the town a disservice.

It doesn't matter what your thought process was, the post clearly suggested that one of us was scum.

3) I see your argument now. chesskid3 strikes you more as struggling town than scum. I disagree, but you make a valid point.

Thank you.

4) Near the end you said "because I already suspect Umbrage..." which means that you find points against me because you suspect me, which is flawed logic. This fits in nicely with my being the wagon of choice: as scum, it would be good for you to say I'm scum, therefore you want a case to say I'm scum, therefore you dig up a case while working under the assumption I'm scum.

It was an addendum in which I was saying, "I've already said all of this stuff, I think this newest post only makes it worse." What you accuse me of would be flawed logic, but that's not what I was doing.

You admit that if you didn't already see me as scummy you wouldn't have picked up on that. That is flawed and biased logic.

5) You speak of lynching me, but you don't seem that convinced I'm scum. You really look like you're trying to CYA.

I'm as convinced as I can be with only posts to go on. Also, I'm getting really tired of all these acronyms. Does it take that much to just type it out? (Meaning: what is CYA?)

@ IS: If you say 'retarded' one more time or make one more insulting remark, I'm requesting your replacement and reporting you. It makes you sound like a teenage high school drop-out with poor English.

I still see Shadow and CK3's argument as distancing.

OMG YOU ARE LURKING!!!!!!!!111
WELL YOUR POSTING TO MUCH1!!1
YOUR SCUM!!!!!!!111111111111111111111
NO YOUR SCUM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11111111111

It caused me physical pain to read through all that. It looks totally fake. They're not even bothering to build proper cases. It's like sibling squabble. I'm reading Shadow in ISO now.

[Umbrage]

Welcome!

@ all who found my case on chesskid3 scummy:

I see chesskid3 as scum. You can see it differently, everything's subjective in this game. But bad reasoning is scummy, and it should not be excused because the player is a VI. I'm sick of my case on CK3 being boiled down to "bad reasoning". I've done a lot more than that, and maybe if I wasn't forced to repeat myself all the time, I'd have even more.

bristep, your argument boils down to "cases on a VI are scummy". This is nonsense. Show me something explicitly scummy about my case. Just as being a VI doesn't make you town, being more 'composed' does not make you scum. chesskid3 is not immune to questioning and suspicion.

*********

And FUCK YOU IS. Reported.

[Umbrage]

Actually that's not what my argument boils down to at all. I did not say that you being composed makes you scum, because that's a daft line to take. There is also no explicit thing which is scummy, because unless you made a mistake there wouldn't be given that a scum player would be very careful not to give the game away. It's your overall play which has led me to feel that you are scum, I think Jedo did a good job and made good points covering what I had seen myself and to my mind you did not give a response which sways my opinion. Again this is something you've done a lot, you have (maybe deliberately) tried to misdirect the argument into something you could argue against and rubbish. I'm happy to go and ISO through and pick out points when you've done that to support what I've said, that will take some time but since there's still 10 days until the end of the day phase there is plenty of just that.

So if it's my overall play, then isn't that more of a gut read? I can't defend myself from that, and I don't think it's a good basis for a vote. If there are things you feel I've misrepresented, please show them.

Long post on Shadow incoming...

[Umbrage]

Shadow's ISO:

Posts 0-4 are RVS stuff. Nothing to see here. Posts 5-7 are about Nexus' vote on AV. No real reaction to a serious vote so early, interesting.

Then we come to the MC proposal. His next 3 posts are all discouraging of an MC. The first of these three (#8) is the post that first caught my attention. The way he quickly follows up with reasoning seems very strange to me. That's definitely a frightened reaction and attempted recovery. In post 9, there's this gem:

This is my first theme on this particular site, but do scum get a safelist? And is it common for there to be flavor attached or written by the host for that list?

This doesn't look like something town would say. If he really hates the idea of an MC, why bother asking to see if there are fakeclaims? It makes way more sense as scum asking if he was supposed to have a fake claim.

Post 11 is the next day. Although he was against a name claim, he mentions he has a PotC name, as if to make himself look more town. This is tacked on before he says he'll post the next day. The thing I don't get is why would he say that in that post. Why comment on that, of all things? I think it's because since everyone else seemed to have PotC names, he had better fit in with the crowd, and quickly. This corresponds with his dislike of a name claim.

The next two posts (and days) are promises of more content soon.

Next we have all the stuff with chesskid3. It's really tough to get his full case because it's spread out over so many posts, but basically he finds CK3 scummy for:

Not scumhunting
Going on about the mass claim
Using OMGUS on Shadow for not posting much (I'm not sure if this is actually a point against him, or just something Shadow was pointing out.)

The clearest post in #24:

My position is that you're the biggest scum read for talking a lot, but not saying anything.

The reason I say this is likely distancing is because of the massive change in Shadow's activity and style. When I played with him before, he was vastly different, forming larger cases on people he found scummy. Also, it doesn't sound like he truly believes CK3 is scum. That is, he doesn't seem to care what we think. He makes posts that are either just silly, like saying WIFOM over and over again, and even begins to coach CK a little.

He often repeats what a bad idea the MC was, in case we missed it the first 500 times. I think there's a good chance that he's trying to rein in his out of control partner. Picture this: scum CK3 proposes an MC, maybe he thinks it'll distract town, maybe he thinks it'll make him look pro-town, whatever. His partner Shadow thinks this would be a bad thing for them, so he tries to stop it from happening. His "Terrible" post makes sense like this; he's giving a warning to his partner. He doesn't need to say why it's a bad idea because he assumes CK3 will listen to him. He then tacks on reasoning for our benefit as an afterthought. Then, when he comes into the game again later, he notices CK3 hasn't forgotten about the idea. In an effort to distract the town, he launches into a crazy distancing act with CK3, casually mentions how bad an idea the MC was, and then lets the case deteriorate into a mindless back and forth.

This scenario still works with CK3 as town, but it's more likely when they're both scum.

Later, Shadow starts to defend himself from Internet Stranger. Shadow admits to hating VIs, which is interesting considering his 'case' on CK3. The post in question (40) says how he wants a 'certain level of comprehension' in games. He comes dangerously close to admitting he only wants a PL on CK3, which doesn't make sense if Shadow really believes CK3 is scummy.

Then we come to post 46:

Mine started as a policy vote, but I think he's deliberately playing dumb. That whole mass claim idea debacle was also pretty scummy. It could probably still be classified as a policy vote, I'm just looking for something else scummy to happen, I don't expect a speed policy lynch.

He admits he doesn't have a good case on CK3. He once again throws mud on the MC. He now says he's 'waiting' for something to happen. Translation: I'm done with this now, somebody do something so I can say it's scummy.

Nothing else of much note until post 51, where he says CK3 has been "playing the VI card". This is after he admits to wanting a PL on CK3 due to VI behaviour.

Afterward, he uses the argument "Why would scum want to lynch a VI?" which is of course, WIFOM.

CONCLUSION: A lot of Shadow's posts appear to be written from a scum perspective. While this does not definitely mean he is scum, his association with CK3, fear of MC, and contradictions throughout the 'day' strongly imply that he is scum. If he is scum, then his most likely partner is CK3.

I try will catch up on the thread and respond to Jedo and bristep123 tomorrow. I am willing to vote Shadow to get a lynch, although I still feel CK3 will give us more information.

[Umbrage]

FUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I had a huge reply to Jedo and now it's gone FUCK!

Anyway, a few things I want to clear up:

1: My post on Shadow was in the works for a long time, and I wasn't keeping up with the thread properly. I didn't realize until afterward that a lot of what I said had already been pointed out.
2: When someone makes a case on me, I feel responsible to respond to each point. I think this is the basis for the 'won't admit he's scummy' arguments made against me. It's a difference in play style, that's all.
3: I've been accused of contradiction a lot, and the only thing I see that could be construed as that is the MC debate. I was for the MC for one reason, that became weak when compared with the mounting evidence against an MC. I do not believe that is a contradiction, at least it wasn't in my mind.

My favourite lynch is still CK3. I will settle for a lynch of Shadow, Internet Stranger, or Jedo.

Request votecount!

[Umbrage]

Chesskid.

You are trying to convince us to vote for smargaret because we this Umbrage is scum and he hasn't gone after her.

But you yourself think Umbrage is town, therefore you negate your own argument.

smargaret is on my radar, but I'm not going to be pushed onto a wagon by you with flawed logic.

I think smargaret is scum and umbrage is town yes
but whatever logic I can use to get more smargaret votes I will use.
I see nohting wrong with that

I can't believe this post hasn't made a bigger stink. Could you get any MORE scummy?

[Umbrage]

^^ this. I do not understand how chess is drawing these conclusions.

'Coz dey're both da scums!!!!

UNVOTE: chesskid3

VOTE: Shadow1psc

The fact that Shadow claimed only his name seems quite odd to me. He's banking on the fact he has a very pro-town sounding name. That and the crap he's pulling with CK3 seal the deal. Note that he only claimed when CK3 got on his wagon. They're the scum team for sure.

[Umbrage]

Should just be L-3. CK3 unvoted.

[Umbrage]

I've said all I'm going to about my claim. You can find out with my body if you'd like, everyone needs to take a real good look at what happened today though if you do. And it's not WIFOM, I asked a single scenario, with plenty of given information (not with one or two votes, I'm at L-1 and it's very likely that I'm going down now). Either way, you answered.

Every time I have doubts about lynching you, you go and reaffirm why I'm on your wagon.

[Umbrage]

I wrote a response to this, then lost it. Here's attempt #2.

You got me, that was my evil plan: taking advantage of the narrow window of opportunity to successfully OMGUS. And I would've gotten away with it too! Or............... it was coincidence. It was RVS. I didn't care who was third on that joke wagon. For me to OMGUS, that implies that I must have taken Nexus' vote on me as a threat. To which I say again: RVS.

I know you didn't care who was third, but Nexus did. You then voted him for voting the third player on the wagon. I don't know how much closer to OMGUS you can get.

OMGUS in RVS is not a scumtell. And honestly, I didn't know I was third on the joke wagon. I didn't care, either.

Show where I misquoted then.

Hasn't this already been done before? Fine. Here is your post:

@ Aurorus Vox:

Are you voting for me simply because I based my support for a mass claim on the reactions of other players?

That's just stupid.

The entire point of an early mass claim is to catch scum off guard.

Terrible.

No, Chesskid.

You don't think that's just a TAD scummy? Not even stopping to consider the benefits?

You did quote one of Shadow's post correctly, but he clarified it

in the very next post

.

And to clarify that, it'd be hard to organize everyone at once, and without that there's no way for anyone to tell what the flavor split is, as scum are just gonna follow the first couple claims' examples.

This is my first theme on this particular site, but do scum get a safelist? And is it common for there to be flavor attached or written by the host for that list? I know different sites have different opinions on this.

And here is the fullness of Nexus' post.

No, Chesskid.

I've played in Prana games before, and his flavour has nothing to do with alignment.

Nexus can certainly clarify this for himself, but I bet what he is saying (since God knows I can't know what other players are thinking) is that it would be unhelpful because we wouldn't know the alignment just by flavour (which he later equates to names). In fact, he's the one who posted this:

I know PranaDevil's theme games. I've played them before. I know that names have no bearing on anything.

Elizabeth Swann was a traitor in the last game he ran. Generally, names make jack difference.

I took the parts of the posts on which I based my suspicions. I was concerned with their original reactions to an MC proposal, not their given reasoning behind said reactions.

Look! This happens to be the post I was referring to in my last post to which you replied:

?

Well, for one thing: "I still don't know what he attempted to achieve with an MC.". There's reasoning that doesn't hold up under pressure, and there's reasoning that just makes no sense. For example, you can argue the world is flat, which is not true, but you can see how it might seem true, and it will take a lot of work to disprove it. On the other hand, you can argue the entire world is pink, which makes no sense.

He attempted to make it difficult for scum later in the game when they would have to stick to their claim. The goal was tripping up scum. I'm sure you know that as well as anybody else. The problem with his whole suggestion is that it wouldn't work as beautifully as he wanted it to and end up being more of a burden for the town. That's why most people were opposed to it. (Except you, of course. Wait, were you for it or against it? I can't remember.[/sarcasm]) It's just bad reasoning on chesskid's part. Good strawman, by the way.

I don't see the strawman. Please clarify.

You saying I misrepresented something is not proof of me misrepresenting something. I don't even know what it is I'm supposed to have misrepresented.

Of course you don't. How could I expect cognizance from you at this point in the game? You certainly can't seem to follow along with people's arguments.

Ad Hominem. Have you really sunk that low?

I'll try once more. Your post:

Fer de record, as far as fourth page reads go, me tinks chesskid3 is scum.

1) He pushes de mass name claim wit no good reason. Scum makin' up fake claims we can't prove are fake claims is not a good reason to be a'claimin.

2) He calls me town 'cause I agreed wit him. Not good logic dere.

(

Highlighted so we know exactly what we are talking about.

)
3) He says dat he'd like ta say NC[sic] is scum 'cause he didn't agree wit 'im. There's no udder reason he gives for dat.
4) He won't answer NC's questions.
5) He lets the MC issue drop witout mooch complaint. Dis is scummy 'cause it shows he don't care mooch aboot it.

I was only fer de mass claim 'cause I was suspicious o' Shadow 'n MC[sic] actin' like dey did. But now, chess is way worse den dem.

He doesn't, in fact, call you town

because

you agreed with him. He actually doesn't specify why that post (where you

incidentally

agree with him) makes you town, just that something in that post signifies your townieness. Here.

I be fer a name claim jus coz Nexus 'n Shadow are so against it. But me not picky.

This is why you're town.

Therefore, your claim of him not having good logic (and therefore of being scum) is based on a faulty claim of your own. (I myself don't think there can be any good reason why that post signifies you as town, but that's beside the point. It wouldn't make him scum either way.) Does that do a good enough job of showing how you misrepresented him? If not, you can look at the next section.

In that post, I agreed with him. He took that post, and said it made me town. It's not hard proof, but it's still solid reasoning. And it's further backed up by the fact that when I turned on him, he lost his town read on me. You're saying it's just coincidence?

[Umbrage]

'Aggravating' him? What does that mean? It was my fault he used OMGUS?

I think you know perfectly well what it means.

Um... no. That's why I asked.

From IS's posts, I believe he knows what it means. I bet a few other people also know what it means. If you can't figure it out, that's not my problem.

*facepalm*

Also, on whom did he use OMGUS? If I've followed correctly (which is hard to do with all of your side-stepping), you are referring to your posts #96 and #97 which are followed by this post:

afafuiajfaodsfjaijdfoasjdfaodsjfafd

MC on D1 forces scum to PICK A CLAIM
then
when we have flips
if a claim looks REALLY REALLY OUT OF LINE WITH ALL THE FLIPS
BYE BYE SCUM
JESUS
HOW IS THIS HARD

no townread but not scumread---->nullread duh.

Also I really don't care if you think I'm scum or not, because you're a goddamn VI

That's not OMGUS. In fact, he doesn't vote you and say you are scum until about two pages later. I put a case on you and vote you, you then vote me right back. This is what chess has to say after that:

hahahahahah after accusing me of omgus
hahahahahahahh
aaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahah
fuck this
Unvote
Vote: umbrage
Goddamnit I don't care about my gut
this is not ok

The reference to his gut is from a previous post in which he says his brain thinks you are scum, but his gut doesn't agree. Meaning he still felt you were town even if the evidence was stacking against. It's about the same thing as he had with Liar. Still, no OMGUS from chess here. Misrepresentation by Umbrage? Yes.

Sigh... I already explained my reasons for voting you. That post of yours sucked, it was scummy, and I voted you for it. And I already pointed out that this is part of scum-CK3's style: he never directly says anyone's scum or town. He waits for a wagon to build. He waited for AV before he voted me.

It doesn't matter what your thought process was, the post clearly suggested that one of us was scum.

Not one of you, just you. Now you're misrepresenting me.

LOL! You explicitly said that if I flipped town, you'd look at CK3!

You admit that if you didn't already see me as scummy you wouldn't have picked up on that. That is flawed and biased logic.

Again, not what is going on.

Then EXPLAIN.

Your post:

OK, we're getting to the end of page 5 now, so I guess it's time for me to post reads. I think chesskid3 and Nexus are scummy. The rest could go either way, I have gut reads on them, but nothing solid so I'll let it pass for now.

chesskid3: Comes up with a mass name claim idea out of the blue, and can't follow up with good reasoning for it. Lashes out at players who question him. His reads are determined by who agrees with him.

Nexus: Has contributed nothing useful thus far. Attempted to shoot down the MC idea quickly. Doesn't like 'distractions'. Votes for AV when he meant to vote for me. The impression I get is of someone trying to control the game without getting too involved. By saying 'that's distracting, stop it' and little else, he can easily pass for town without sticking his neck out too far.

I still like my vote on chesskid3. We need more people in here. IS, Jedo, smargaret, this means you. Get back in here and post.

More examples of your misrepresenting people in order to make them look like scum. That seems scummy to me. That's what the addendum was about. It's kind of like I already have enough evidence to demonstrate your scumminess, but in case I needed more, this is another example. You might call it "piling on" or "running up the score" depending on which you like, but not "flawed and biased logic."

Oh. My. God. Look: just because you SAY something is misrepresentation, it doesn't mean it is misrepresentation. You have to SHOW how it is misrepresentation. Welcome to Mafia 101.

Just about everything in this post I've said before. You're good at empty mudslinging, but if you want some sort of apology or admittance of scummy behaviour from me, you're going to have to do better.

[Umbrage]

Of course he HAS to say to come after me. Thats the only tactic he has left. It would look useless and even scummier if he went after anyone else.
He even tried playing the martyr card already too.

I dont know what more evidence you need on someone to get them lynched.

This post makes me want to forget Shadow fully and vote you! There's still time in the day. Why are you so impatient?

Regardless of Shadow's flip, I'm going to take a good long look at you tomorrow. You could be lynching your buddy for towncred, I've seen that happen.

[Umbrage]

Actually no, what he said was that he thought you were scum. He then went onto say that if he was wrong and you flipped town then he would have to look at CK3. You've taken his statement and twisted it to fit your argument, exactly what I've been showing you doing earlier. I like how at the end of your post you demand he SHOWS how you are misrepresenting, yet when he does show you, you ignore it AND DO IT AGAIN IN REPLY!

He then went onto say that if he was wrong and you flipped town then he would have to look at CK3.

You explicitly said that if I flipped town, you'd look at CK3!

That's the exact same fucking thing. No misrepresentation. Please stop making me bang my head against the wall, there's a dent in the wall.

Really? Again he shows misrepresentation and you just ignore it. I mean you practically admitted that you took only the parts of the posts which fit your argument. I can understand slightly on Shadow, after all he provided his reasoning in a 2nd post but Nexus gave his reason RIGHT BELOW THE LINE YOU QUOTED. It's misrepresentation and you can try to validate your actions but ultimately it's misrepresentation. People have been calling you out on it and providing the proof you keep demanding and you just keep on refusing to make any admissions.

If you feel that's misrepresentation, I can't convince you otherwise. All I wanted was to show the exact things that bothered me, so I cut out most of Nexus' post to save space and avoid confusion. If you really think that makes me scum, well, I clearly can't change your mind no matter what I say.

[Umbrage]

Fine I admit I cut out 2 lines of text. If you feel these two lines really take away from my argument, you could've claimed my argument was invalid. But you saw it as a tell? Saying that I intentionally butchered a quote to make some sort of point is ridiculous. Effectively, you are saying that I claimed Nexus made a reaction simply to voice my support for an MC, only to withdraw my support from the MC later on. What part of that makes sense to you?

And I love how when I counter your arguments, you just throw your hands up in the air and try to smear me. Who's sidestepping now?

[Umbrage]

If Jack Sparrow is in the game, I doubt he'd be vanilla. This, coupled with Shadow's reluctance to claim makes me feel good about a hammer.

@ Jedo: I think that's a good idea. I trust that the players will see though your hollow case.

[Umbrage]

The things that bug me are:

If Jack Sparrow is in the game, he is likely not a VT. He may not be in the game, and the role is a safeclaim for scum. I think Shadow knows this, so it would make sense that he would claim something that sounded like a PR, by choice or by force, and avoid claiming his role unless needed. The alternative is that Shadow is Sparrow, which means nothing in terms of alignment, but again, scum would be more likely to postpone claiming to keep the illusion they are a PR.

[Umbrage]

Now who's misrepresenting? I cut out those lines to avoid confusion, so my argument would be clear. I was concerned with clarity, not showing the quotes in their entirety.

[Umbrage]

I'm not PotC either.

[Umbrage]

in your amazingly qualified opinion, call it now
Will turner
VT or no?

I have a townread on him based on when he claimed.
My townreads are absoolute

My townreads are absoolute

[Umbrage]

CK3, knowing you, you'll claim Barbossa tomorrow.

[Umbrage]

I've seen other people do the bold inside quotes thing before, and I think it's an easy and convenient way to respond while keeping the entire conversation intact. If you think it's too hard to read, I can stop, but nobody's complained yet.

[Umbrage]

Because it's easier to quote the whole post, and I'm lazy.

[Umbrage]

No. Sometimes I feel like cutting and pasting. Sometimes I just say screw it and quote the whole thing.

[Umbrage]

Welcome Wraith!

[Umbrage]

No.

So not misrepresenting then, eh?

?

[Umbrage]

wait so
pushing mass nameclaim
makes me scum because i've never done it before?
EXCUSEEEEEEEEEEEEE ME?

Watch out. He'll have a scum read on Wraith shortly.

[Umbrage]

You accused me of misrepresenting you when I said that in some places you included the entire quotewall whereas in others you cut lines out.

That's a misrepresentation. Seriously, I have no clue what you're talking about. And if the only thing for you to do in this game right now is to question my posting habits, I advise you seriously re-examine a) your life and b) the thread.

[Umbrage]

UNVOTE: Shadow

Does this mean we can FINALLY lynch CK3? YAY!

VOTE: chesskid3

[Umbrage]

Regardless of whether you think CK3's buddy is Shadow or IS, he's still someone we all agree on. We'll figure out who his buddy is tomorrow.

[Umbrage]

Something I didn't like is that Nexus pops in and says "oh hai guys in Prana's games names mean nothing." Seemingly defending Chese's failed mass name claim.

unvote;vote:Nexus

Should I tell him?

You may have already answered something similar to this before and I just forgot about it but, if you find chess so scummy, why were you voting shadow rather than him earlier?

Because I'm pretty sure Shadow's his scumbuddy, and the wagon on CK3 was going nowhere.

[Umbrage]

LOL. When did I accuse you of misrepresentation? And the section made of roman numerals makes me cringe. Denying charges of misrepresentation does not prove misrepresentation. Obviously, if you could prove I was 'QED scum', your vote would be on me now. Why, I'm not sure, but I have a sneaking suspicion you're buddies with CK3, and now that the attention has shifted back onto him, you want to try to get Shadow or myself lynched quickly.

HoS: AurorusVox

[Umbrage]

You accused me of misrepresenting you when I said that in some places you included the entire quotewall whereas in others you cut lines out.

That's a misrepresentation. Seriously, I have no clue what you're talking about. And if the only thing for you to do in this game right now is to question my posting habits, I advise you seriously re-examine a) your life and b) the thread.

LOL. When did I accuse you of misrepresentation?

(post clipped as the rest is just posturing.)

Really? Really?! It's on the same page and still you try to deny things!

Uh, that was a joke. Hence the 'seriously' afterward.

Also, I already explained why my vote isn't on you. Lynch all claimed VTs. In that post. Are you not reading any more?

Oh, because the scum will go for the PRs, right? So, an increased chance of a PR hit is worth letting almost certain scum live another day? It doesn't sound like you're too sure I'm scum, which is surprising seeing as you've been tunneling on me for half the game. Hoping to set up tomorrow's lynch by any chance?

-----------------

At first, I was pretty sure that Shadow was CK3's buddy, but now I'm having doubts. I really hate how IS is pushing Shadow so strongly. Do you have NO other suspects?

[Umbrage]

The actual mafia is obv doom
And smargaret
but doom hears my name
concludes I WOULDN'T BE A VT
AND VOTES ME
HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMm

SERIOUSLY WHY IS EVERYONE IGNORING THIS

I feel like there's actually a good point here. So close, and yet so far...

....
whatever
let's lynch someone who is not me plz

I hope you're scum, because if you are town, you bring new meaning to the term VI.

[Umbrage]

[quote="bristep"]I'm supporting a lynch on Chess because that's the wagon currently rolling, just like I supported Shadow's when that was.]/quote]

Need I say more?

@AV:

1) The only thing you've pointed out as misrepresentation is that I cut out the part of a quote I didn't need. The normal response would be to say "but this bit here proves your argument invalid!" and we'd have a nice little debate about the issue. Saying I misrepresented is implying that my argument is invalid without ever proving it is. The fact that I omitted something does not mean that that something therefore disproves my point. You have to say why it disproves my point. First, you have to show that I had a bad reason to cut that post, then you prove that reason means I am scum. A comes before B. Trimming down a post is NOT a scumtell. You have yet to show that by cutting the post, I was able to get away with something I couldn't have done otherwise. The reason you haven't shown this is because the remainder of that quote does not detract from my original argument and reason for supporting the mass name claim. I cut it for simplicity's sake, to make my point clear. You have not shown otherwise.

2) I don't care whether or not you believe my misrepresentation comment was a joke. But I do think it's interesting how you don't seem to care either. All you seem to be able to do is shout "BLAH BLAH LYING SCUM QUICKLYNCH PLZ". Can't let pesky things like facts get in your way, now, can you? You haven't showed any reason for me to take you seriously, you haven't shown any reason to believe that joke wasn't a joke.

3) I don't care if you find CK3 scummy or anti-town or whatever. But you can't say not to lynch him because there's a claimed VT, and yet be OK with my lynch even though there's a claimed VT. The only difference is in YOUR mind. You believe CK3 is town, but quite a lot of us think he's scum. And saying the claimed VT rule works for one but not for another is a cheap cop-out. It's really stupid.

tl; dr:

You haven't shown any motive I could have had for misrepresentation.
You haven't shown any reason to disbelieve my joke was a joke.
You haven't shown any reason to support my lynch but not CK3's that works with your 'lynch all claimed VTs' rule.
In fact, you haven't shown much of anything. Are we remembering how I disproved each and every one of your arguments before? Are we resorting to hopeless smearing now? Or are we just trying to do everything possible to stop CK3's lynch?

[Umbrage]

Your motives for misrepresentation is to misrepresent

Stopped reading here. If you can't come up with anything better than I'm scum because I'm scum, we're through talking.

[Umbrage]

@ IS:

1) You say that the only reason you didn't hammer is to see what Shadow did.

2) Shadow did the opposite of what you expected, but your read on him didn't change.

3) Since Shadow narrowly avoided getting lynched, if he is scum, I doubt hammering is a good thing to do for him.

4) You are assuming that Shadow knows CK3's alignment. If Shadow is town, he could simply be unwilling to hammer somebody he wasn't sure was scum, which in regards to point 2, is perfectly understandable.

5) Sure, it's not optimal to lynch your #2, but what if that #2 is other people's #1?

6) You haven't taken into account the possibility that Shadow is town at all. Who are your top suspects if he is?

@ AurorusVox:

Let me try this one more time. Scum do not just misrepresent things for the hell of it. I didn't just wake up one morning and decide to misrepresent something. Both scum and town can misrepresent something. All you've shown so far is that I cut out two lines of text. You have to show that I cut out those lines because I hoped to achieve something scummy.

------------------------

I still prefer a CK3 lynch, that will give us the most information. However, Nero Cain's vote is very scummy, and should not be forgotten. He didn't want to be replaced, why is that? He hasn't really come up with a case on CK3, and just a while ago was voting IS. I just think it's worth looking at.

[Umbrage]

My dog is in surgery right now, I can't respond to anything, but I will soon.

[Umbrage]

1) I still don't see any case on me worth responding to.

2) I still think CK3 is scum. However, I have no clue who his partners would be at this point. He has a very strong connection with Shadow, but with the way IS and AV are trying to find any alternate lynch, it could one or both of them as well.

3) From my point of view, today's lynch has to be either Shadow or CK3. Everyone here has made strong opinions one way or another about these players: a flip from them would yield the most information. If IS is town, it doesn't mean Shadow is scum, but if Shadow is town, it probably means IS is scum.

4) I'm glad to see Nero Cain's latest posts. I'm losing my scum read on him. That attack on IS looks good.

[Umbrage]

Just so you know, I will vote IS or whoever to get a lynch before the day is out. I'm keeping up with the thread.

[Umbrage]

@ Shadow: I don't want a no-lynch. What's wishy-washy about that?

IS not voting for chess makes good sense (not that most of you would realize that). The hammer is of course the scummiest looking person. IS says he will likely do it if someone else votes. Nero does so. Why would IS then hammer? He would look like the scummiest person. It was a reasonable ploy because it shows who was willing to set IS up to look scummy. Now that person can still look good if chess flips town (not that you guys will suspect anybody for lynching chess) and easily finger IS.

Then there's the Shadow challenge. Sure Shadow doesn't want to be the hammer (for the reasons above), but he said earlier that he thought chess was scum. (Or was he just a good policy lynch? I'm confused.) Why would he not vote for chess? Just because he's the hammer? Like I said, most of you think chess is scum and if not that, annoying, so nobody will be at fault if he happens to flip town. Plus, he says any lynch would be helpful just to get us through night to tomorrow (agreeing with me through a little misinterpretation), so why not hammer?

AV, you want hypocritical, that's some nice hypocritical bullshit right there.

Both Umbrage and Nero are misrepresenting me.

REASONING IS GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOD.

Umbrage: Agrees with Nero Cain's latest WoT

MY GOD I SAID SOMETHING POSITIVE ABOUT NC THAT MUST MEAN WE'RE SCUM BUDDIES!111

Orrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.................

Maybe I'm just glad he's finally playing this game.

UNVOTE: chesskid3

That was beginning to feel like a policy/information vote. I need a fresh look at things.

Because sMargaret's contribution has been, in my eyes, negligible. At least in comparison to everyone else.

This.

OH NOES I JUST AGREED WITH WRAITH WHICH MEANS WE'RE SCUM BUDDIES TOO!11 OUR EVIL PLAN HAS BEEN FOILED AHHHHHHHH

[Umbrage]

@Umbrage - Well, it's obvious there won't be a no lynch. It's generally acceptable, however, to say more than "Yeah, I'll vote for whoever". You've just been on every train without much reasoning all day.

By all means, say more! Thus far I've been on CK3 and you, and I've given my reasons for both votes.

------------

Regarding hypocritical comment, I thought it was obvious, but apparently it wasn't.

Jedo says that IS could not be expected to hammer, but it's scummy if Shadow doesn't. That's just stupid, and parroting IS' argument. Am I the only one that sees how they're fawning over each other?

IT IS NOT SCUMMY IF SHADOW DOESN'T HAMMER. IT IS IN HIS BEST INTERESTS AS TOWN FOR HIM TO NOT HAMMER, UNLESS HE TRULY BELIEVES CK3 IS SCUM.

[Umbrage]

Yes... yes... the chainsaw... VERY SCUMMY!!!

(what's a chainsaw exactly?)

[Umbrage]

If CK3 is a vig, I think I will hang myself.

Honestly, I can't fully support an IS wagon. Something in his posts just screams "I'M TOWN" to me. He's the stubbornest player I've seen, and I don't think scum would stick their necks out like that. I realize what I just said is WIFOM, but my gut says he's not scum.

[Umbrage]

"UM"? That's a new one.

[Umbrage]

pssst. (Vote Shadow)

Why don't you sig this, it'll save a lot of typing time!

[Umbrage]

Time to simplify things.

1 - bristep123 (replaces Nexus): Replaced a very lurking/scummy slot. Has done some good scumhunting, but has a bit of a "I'll lynch anyone" attitude, and has had it for a while now. CONCLUSION: Most likely town, but not excluded from being scum. Either way, he's not going to be today's lynch.
2 - chesskid3: Totally illogical. Spams the thread in an argument with Shadow, but doesn't want to see him lynched, and has a town read on him now. Obvious distancing. Does an IS style repeat someone is scum until they get lynched strategy, but his targets are all over the place. Frequently resorts to AAH. CONCLUSION: I've been picking up the scumtells from this player for a long time now. He hasn't improved his play in that time, if anything he's now worse. He's becoming more anxious for a lynch as the day wears on.
3 - smargaret: Saying he's lurking isn't exactly true. It's more like he's doing something parallel to the rest of us. I initially consider this town, but it could be a scum ploy. CONCLUSION: Would like more content. Could be scum, but I see no compelling reason to think so at the moment.
4 - Umbrage: Dear God this man is genius. CONCLUSION: Incredibly handsome.
5 - Shadow1psc: Hm... Well, his activity is now up to scratch, and he's doing some solid scumhunting. Of course, this may simply have been spurred by the wagon on him. However, the only new points that have been on him are utter bullshit, the "lynch claimed VT" and "he didn't hammer". CONCLUSION: Definitely one of the 3 most likely to be scum. My original case on him stands firm.
6 - Wraith (replaces JoanBud): JoanBud isn't really worth talking about, Wraith on the other hand has made a HUGE change in stance partway through his play without much explanation. CONCLUSION: Needs to take a more objective look at the game, and needs more content. My gut feeling is that he's town, but that could change.
7 - Nero Cain: Makes good cases, but... I don't know, there's something about the careless humour in his posts... I get a really bad scum vibe. CONCLUSION: It's probably nothing, but I want to keep a close eye on this one.
8 - AurorusVox: Utterly unreasonable. Pushes cases even when they've lost all merit. Forms a good case on Shadow, but then pushes the weird 'claimed VT' thing. Contradicts himself, says he's alright with Shadow or myself, but not IS. Butchers my quotes, seemingly on purpose. Given to fits of rage when he doesn't get his way. CONCLUSION: A likely buddy of IS. He's pushed too hard to be partners with Shadow, IMO. Still, he could be a strong asset to the town, so I'm hesitant about a lynch.
9 - Internet Stranger: Nuts. Pushes a Shadow lynch from the get-go, and doesn't let up, never considers anyone else. And he has weak reasoning compared to the rest of us. CONCLUSION: He's either town or the most suicidal scum I've ever seen.
10 - Jedo the Jedi: His original non-RVS post still rings out as scummy to me. I remember thinking he could be buddies with CK3, but I sort of forgot about it with the whole Shadow thing. Looking back, it makes perfect sense. CONCLUSION: Pretty scummy. Think about it, he realizes his buddy CK3 is in trouble, so launches a case on me to distract the town. It works. He keeps on me until the wagon dies, then notices Shadow is the prime target. He hops on the wagon while still attacking me. His position on Shadow goes from 0 to 100 in a few posts. He sits back and does the 'hurry up and do something' act. You can even see him coach CK3 at some point. I'm not saying he's definitely scum, but I am amazed he's slipped under the radar thus far.
11 - Doombunny9: Gets a slow start, but becomes one of the more pro-town players. Stays neutral, never really pushing a wagon so that it becomes scummy. Stays focused, not swayed by popular wagons. CONCLUSION: If he's scum, we're all in trouble.
12 - Liar: I'm sad to see him go. I don't think there's a soul here that honestly suspected him. CONCLUSION: See Doombunny.

VOTE: Jedo the Jedi

As said, I will switch to IS if it comes to it, but greatly prefer Jedo, CK3, or even Shadow.

[Umbrage]

@ CK3: I'd take that bet if my avatar wasn't so much better than yours.

@ AV: u mad bro?

The problem with your statement is that Shadow has thought chess scummy, so why didn't he hammer?

You know, I'd actually like Shadow to answer this. As I recall his position was more of a policy lynch. Has that changed, or have I got it wrong?

[Umbrage]

All three of my suspects initially turned immediately hostile toward me, then NC and Umbrage started bussing IS.

Nope. Try again.

[Umbrage]

And IS should still be at L-3.

[Umbrage]

I also would hammer IS (as much as it would pain me to do so) so we can have a lynch today. We will need the information from a lynch. I can only hope any night kills will be equally illuminating.

This is a dumb end to the day, for the record. We've had two claims and we're going to kill a third? Bad policy, town. We should have just killed one of the people who already claimed. I guess we'll see how it plays out.

QFT

I've got a bad feeling about this lynch. The wagon grew too quickly. It won't give us much information. But above all, IS reads like genuinely frustrated town.

[Umbrage]

FYI, the reason I haven't been lynched yet is that nobody's managed to come up with a reason I'm scum beyond gut instinct and tells that simply don't exist. There's always suspicion toward very aggressive, very pro-town players, and it has the same credibility as paranoid delusions.

And do show where I've changed my opinion of IS. This is what I'm talking about, lots of bark, but no bite.

Honestly, I think AV is more likely to be scum than IS. AV has been doing the exact same thing as IS, only it's far less obvious. There is nothing that IS has done that AV has not. I'm not saying AV is scum, just that if you think IS scummy, you have to think AV scummy.

[Umbrage]

What is bad is the fact that you flat out refuse to put IS at L-1 and that reads as cautious townie/scum.

IS WAS at L-1 for a while there. I've said I was willing to hammer, nobody requested IS be put at L-1.

[Umbrage]

Fine. Clearly there's nothing more I can do for the town today.

UNVOTE: Jedo
VOTE: Internet Stranger

Time for a THIRD claim.

[Umbrage]

Please tell me a weak doc is someone that dies if they protect the wrong person, because if they're not, we're likely looking for an SK or second scum team.

Jedo's kill is confusing. I can understand scum going for Liar's slot, but Jedo... I wonder if someone's trying to pin the kill on myself.

Shadow's still a good lynch for today, but we shouldn't rush anything. I want to take a closer look at smargaret and Nero Cain. They've been sailing under my radar for a while. With Jedo town, I'm more inclined to think of CK3 as town, but not entirely. He and Shadow are still my top suspects at this moment, but I want to cast a wider net.

(That's the trouble with this game, all my metaphors end up sea related.)

[Umbrage]

VOTE: AurorusVox

That's all I needed. Thank you for confirming what I suspected: you killed Jedo to pin it on me.

Longer response incoming later tonight.

[Umbrage]

1. I NEVER changed my read on IS. I said I would hammer him to avoid a no-lynch, and I stand by that. A lynch of town is better than a no-lynch.

2. I was trying to lynch Jedo, why would I NK him? I know, I know, WIFOM, but all NK speculation is WIFOM, including your argument that I killed Jedo because he wanted me dead.

3. I DON'T know that Jedo was the NK. If a weak doctor is what I thought it was, then it was likely SP wasn't killed intentionally. Therefore, Jedo was MOST LIKELY the NK.

4. If ShadowTown hammered IS, he would probably be lynched today. Thus, if he thought IS was town, the result would likely be two dead townies. I can understand his hesitation. I'm not saying I agree, but I can understand.

5. I voted for Jedo because he looked the scummiest. Simple. I already said I would hammer whoever to get a lynch, so it wasn't a problem. I also wanted to see how you all reacted to a vote on Jedo.

@ everyone: AV's been on me the whole game. Now, he's using a WIFOMy excuse to continue a wagon that has no merit. Doombunny9 is likely his buddy, he's trying to throw in a little distancing with bogus vote analysis.

@ Nero Cain: Not OMGUS. A trap. I waited to see what AV would make of the NK, and he gave just the response I was looking for.

[Umbrage]

@ AV:

If Shadow was likelier scum over IS, you could have voted him and had him lynched yesterday. At one point the wagons could have been equal if everyone stopped saying they'd vote for Shadow and actually did it. But you danced around saying you did, no you didn't, oh but you did, support IS's lynching. Because having a claimed VT or your buddy left alive was good for you. (note: the weak doc death has made me rethink Chess as potential scum, relegating Shadow to possibly town after all. I could see Chess being third party with a Doom-Umbrage-Shadow scumteam but I think that'll become clearer after tonight...)

You still haven't shown where it said I supported IS' lynch. In fact, I was pretty much the ONLY person against it. I'm practically confirmed town. You are grasping at straws, and I think you know it.

I only speculated on that because you'd pre-empted the argument by saying it was a frame. You rushed to get that out there, and it looked suspect. You would probably NK him because you saw from yesterday how small a chance you had of getting him lynched. Maybe you thought he was a PR, who knows. If someone had really wanted to frame you they'd have killed ME, but YOU as scum probably knew that would lead right back to you, and so you went for the next best thing. Shame you played your hand too early though. NK speculation is all WIFOM and I argue myself in circles about it, but you coming out all guns blazing about how it was a frame has helped clear most of the fog away.

Funny, that was a breadcrumb designed to trap you.

So your read on Chess moving from Scum to Town was because...?

Jedo's flip. But then, the doc would be most likely to protect CK3, so... I need some time to think this through.

Sounds like you agree that the best town thing to do is not hammer someone he thinks is town (which is what you did), AND you're also ignoring it was the best thing for scum-Shadow to do as well. You're wriggling but I won't let go.

Uh... no. Doesn't say that. I said it was in HIS best interests to not hammer. He was being accused of being buddies with CK3. Basically, no matter CK3's flip, he would have accused of being scum. He made a good decision, and this case is COMPLETELY different.

You...what? You're drawing AV-Jedo scum connections? How did that go for you? ALSO, I still don't understand why you didn't pledge allegiance to the Shadow wagon when you've thought he was scum pretty much all game. You instead made sure to STAY OFF it and get on Jedo (?!) and IS's instead.

Again, I never said I was drawing connections between the two of you. I was testing EVERYONE'S reactions. And I WAS on Shadow's wagon until a CK3 wagon started forming. And I was NEVER on IS' case. Do your research.

My case on you is plenty more than the NK. Keep ignoring it and it might go away. Well, or you will. One way or the other.

Please. You haven't formed one point against me that I haven't disproved.

Lololol. The votes aren't fabricated. Tell me how its bogus? Doom has leapt off of claimants and onto new wagons every time. He was the first off of Shadow when he claimed VT, and you were off shortly after. That was a close one, eh, your buddy/the claimed VT almost getting lynched? Then with Chess he was the first to unvote there too. You later followed him, and surprise surprise, eventually ended up on IS together.

QUESTION: Who here has ever taken a stats course? Who here knows anything about stats?

Well, I can tell you a few things. FACT: You can manipulate statistics to show anything you want. FACT: Correlation does not imply causation. Doom's votes corresponding with certain events does not mean those events were related to his votes. FACT: Even if those events were related in some way, that does not necessarily imply a scummy motive. You have to SHOW a motive. Sound familiar?

[Umbrage]

Also, I feel obliged to point out:

Either Wraith is confirmed town, or Wraith and AV are scumbuddies. I can't imagine scum doing something like that, particularly with such a pro-town player. If they were going to fake something like that, they'd do it with their scummiest member, not Wraith. So, I'm prepared to say that Wraith is confirmed. However, this does not mean AV is confirmed.

[Umbrage]

HILARIOUS. "Practically confirmed town" my ass. Don't try and tell me that not supporting an IS lynch proves you're town when I tried my hardest to convince you NOT TO VOTE FOR HIM due to the ramifications of my vote analysis (more on that later) and you still voted for him. Is this bullshit because we're onto your buddy and you're trying to get lynched in his place? What, is he a big scary mafia PR and you're a lowly goon? You can go tomorrow pal.

Oh yes, the vote analysis that told you to vote for a player that nobody else suspected just as the day was about to end. Honestly, and you said I was bad for voting Jedo.

That was my point. Funny how you didn't find the thing that pointed to one of your top scum picks being implicated. Because you don't really care for scumhunting, you only care for securing mislynches.

This is absolute trash. WAH I DIDN'T GET THE ANSWER I WANTED SO I'M JUST GOING TO THROW WIFOM AROUND AND HOPE SOME IDIOT BUYS IT!11 Please.

Look, there's a lot of things for CK3 being scum, and a lot of things for him being town. I want to look at other players now. Namely you.

So if I'd accused you of being IS' buddy, you'd have been in the same situation? Funny, because I believe Wraith accused you and IS of being buddies. Huh, what a coincidence.

Did Wraith ever say HAMMER INTERNET STRANGER NOW BECAUSE HE'S YOUR BUDDY? Don't think so.

You said you found him scummy a couple of times, then you felt it in your gut he was town. But still you didn't vote for Shadow, your scumpick, as the deadline drew near, when it mattered.

Yes, WITH HINDSIGHT, I should've gone for the lynch when I had the chance. But we still had plenty of time left in the day. How was I supposed to know the town would switch onto IS?

I've formed plenty, you just haven't read them.

I've responded to every thing you've said that isn't total shit.

FACT: You're parrotting Smargaret here, even though I've SHOWN the motive. Here it is in nicely laid out format (god forbid you'd have to do some thinking for yourself):

(a) Shifting off of Shadow's wagon was keeping the claimed VT or scumbuddy alive, both of which are good for scum.
(b) Shifting off of Chess identifies a PR for NK'ing or RB'ing; besides, why waste a lynch on a VI when you can...
(c) ...try to out another claim by waggoning on someone else and having them mislynched instead, especially considering they're a vocal opponent of someone who could be a scumbuddy.

So, he doesn't want to lynch an outed VT, OR an outed PR? How the hell does that make sense?

By the way, all of these things are tells that should've been obvious without vote analysis. In other words, since you didn't point these out before, there was nothing scummy about doombunny9's ACTIONS, just the TIMING of his actions in hindsight. Which takes you right back to my earlier argument: vote analysis means WHATEVER YOU WANT IT TO MEAN.

[Umbrage]

More proof you're not reading. I never voted for Doom until today. Get your facts straight scum.

I don't care if you actually voted him, you said you were 99% sure he was scum. Sorry, but you can't just say OH WELL I NEVER VOTES HIM and have your attack magically disappear.

Disprove me. Don't just call it trash.

Just to be clear, you argument is that since I didn't immediately start wagoning chess, I've flipped my read on him? I've given you an answer to that.

My point stands. You were accused of being his buddy.

No, point does NOT stand. All your replies seem to be along this same theme. Guess what? You can't just say the point stands in the face of evidence to the contrary and have people take you seriously. Do I really need to explain why the Shadow-chess thing and the myself/IS thing are different? I WAS UNDER NO PRESSURE TO HAMMER. Why? Because I had already SAID I would hammer at deadline, which you would've seen if you had been reading properly.

What the actual fuck? At the end of the day we had time to organise a lynch on shadow and you fucked around with voting Jedo and eventually IS. You could easily have voted Shadow at any point during this time to try to get him lynched.

What game are you playing? Because in this one, THERE WAS NO FUCKING TIME. Do you REALLY think I could've gotten Shadow lynched in the few days remaining? I explained why the IS lynch was a bad idea, something I don't remember you doing.

Wrong.

LADIES AND GENTLEMEN THE GREAT AURORUSVOX HAS SPOKEN AND DECLARED MY ARGUMENT WRONG THEREFORE IT MUST BE WRONG BECAUSE THE GREAT AURORUSVOX KNOWS ALL

Honestly. And you accused me of not reading. See, the difference between you and me is that I put CONTENT in my posts. I don't just dismiss things like this. I PROVE MY POINTS. THIS IS SOMETHING YOU DO IN MAFIA.

They become more obvious when it's all arranged in a chart that points it out. Not lynching the VT is good; having an RB and not lynching the PR-VI is also good (notice Chess said he got nothing last night); scum are sitting very pretty atm, thanks to you and Doom.

And what, we just planned this out? That implies we have the power to pretty much just choose who gets wagoned and lynched, which is beyond stupid.

[Umbrage]

By the way, midterm season is approaching, so expect a decrease in activity. I will come up with ISOs on smargaret and Nero Cain eventually.

[Umbrage]

It does matter because the point is that you were accusing me of not voting for Shadow at teh end of the day, which is incorrect.

No, I just said that it was hypocritical of you to attack me for going after Jedo.

No, I won't restate my argument. Go back and read it. I've had enough of you now.

Nice way to back out of something. OH I HAVE EVIDENCE THAT YOU'RE SCUM BUT I WON'T TELL YOU WHAT IT IS!111

This is exactly what you're doing, simply saying something is wrong because you don't like it.

Wrong.

I know you said that but if Shadow did the right thing by not hammering someone who was accused of being his buddy, you must have done the wrong thing by hammering someone who was accused of being your buddy.

I wasn't under any pressure to hammer, until Nero Cain requested I vote.

Fuck me and you accuse me of not reading? I explained point by point why Shadow was a better lynch AND proved that IS lynch was scum motivated. So wait you had enough time to start a brand new wagon on Jedo but not enough time to organise a wagon on Shadow? Bullshit.

Now I KNOW you aren't reading my responses. I explained why I voted Jedo. If I was like you, I would tell you to find it myself. But I won't, because that's bad play. I voted Jedo to look for scummy reactions.

This is all you've been doing all game.

What? Mocking you? Making claims without backing them up? I have no idea what you mean by this.

LMFAO you and content don't mix pal. Remember when I made lots of posts that you simply ignored and didn't read? Yeah I remember that.

Oh, wasn't that when you started spamming the thread with insults? Yeah, I remember that too.

No it happened and you didn't try to stop it happening in fact you encouraged it. Luckily for you it went your way. Unluckily I caught you.

So you are saying that we DO have control over the ENTIRE town and can push WHATEVER wagon we feel like? In that case, why are you still here?

Umbrage has done everything that Doom has done with the voting pattern, and plus he is scummier overall and outside of this point.

HAHAHAHA OH MY GOD I CAN'T BELIEVE YOU JUST SAID THAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

YOU JUST FUCKING ADMITTED YOU PULLED THE VOTING ANALYSIS OUT OF YOUR ASS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

IF I DID EVERYTHING DOOMBUNNY9 HAS DONE THEN YOU WOULD HAVE SAID SO THE LAST DAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

YOU SAID DOOM WAS 99% SCUM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

NOW SUDDENLY I'M WORSE THAN HIM?????????????????????????????????????????????

WHAT THE FUCK

[Umbrage]

On AV v. Umbrage - I think there's a small chance that this is just town arguing amongst themselves, but AV getting waved at does not confirm his own alignment. However if Wraith is town, that is the one-shot he was talking about, and has thrown his suspicion AV's way even (though I don't get the logic in it, unless Wraith's deduction is "well if I thought AV was so town, maybe Snake thought so too"). Umbrage looked pretty bad all day, and had bad interaction with confirmed town. AV has made decent enough points, so it's a good place to start.

Translation: I'm going to vote Umbrage because doing something else means disagreeing with Wraith, and I don't have the balls to do that.

Note how AV has more or less shut up now. It's because he knows I'm right, and the only thing he can do now is pray for my lynch.

[quote="AV]They're not the same because you voted for Jedo and avoided voting for Shadow; whilst I kept my vote on a realistic lynch.[/quote]

At that point, Shadow was not a realistic lynch. At that point we were just waiting for someone to hammer IS. Argue otherwise all you want, it's not going to change anything.

At the time I did the voting analysis you hadn't yet voted for IS, so no, I didn't say it yesterday because the thread was closed.
I didn't say it today because I wanted to pressure Doom on it. Not to mention his voting pattern is worse than yours.
But you've shadowed him AND you're scummier in general. It's this last bit that I'm referring to when I say you're "worse."
His votes are worse, but you're worse overall.

Oh, so his voting pattern is worse, but I'm still scummier? And my voting pattern was the same as his? Yeah, I see how that makes sense.

So your 99% read is worthless now? If the vote analysis is worthless, why do you still suspect Doom?

Notice, town, how he leaps on any excuse to revote me. More evidence that AV and Doom are the scum.

@ AV: Keep trying, scum. Or don't. Doesn't matter to me, I caught you.

[Umbrage]

Shadow is still tremendously scummy, btw. His "I never suspect Jedo or Liar" is a transparent attempt to retroactively distance himself from the kills.

@ CK3: You've said who you think is town, now, who do you think is scum?

EDIT: So you think Doom is scum then?

[Umbrage]

UNVOTE: AurorusVox

VOTE: chesskid3

Wraith is confirmed town. Try again.

[Umbrage]

@ Shadow: It's scummy because it was the first thing you said. Your main concern was "who are the scum" or "what are people saying to me", it was "I didn't do the NKs". Nobody was drawing connections between you and the NKs. Unprompted denial is distancing.

@ AV: What the hell is this? I'm scum unless I vote Doom? Seems to ring a bell.... OH YES, that's what IS said to Shadow! My answer is the same as his: NO.

Also, I gave my reasons for considering Wraith confirmed. I don't feel like repeating myself again, so go back and look. The day is only a couple pages long, it shouldn't be that hard.

[Umbrage]

... what? Are you high? That wasn't the implication of the post at all. You're right, nobody is drawing connections between me and the night kills, because it kinda goes without saying. I'm talking about the NK's in relation mostly to Snake because it's pretty obvious he died protecting scum. Are you that dense?

That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about how the first words out of your mouth were 'I had nothing to do with the dead guys'.

[Umbrage]

That wasn't what I said. I said if you're sure he's scum why are you afraid to vote for him? Are you categorically refusing to vote for someone you think is scum? Jeee, what a stinky scumbag you are.

THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT INTERNET STRANGER SAID!

FACT: You say I'm buddies with Doom.
FACT: You want me to vote Doom.
FACT: You think I'm scummy because I don't vote Doom.
ERGO: You are saying that if I vote Doom, your read on me will lessen. I don't care if you explicitly said it or not, it's there.

If I didn't replace out of my last game, I'd replace out of this one. I'm through responding to AV as it is. Somebody tell me if he gets past ad hominem.

@ Shadow: Simply the fact that you never suspected him proves he would be a good kill for you. Think about it.

[Umbrage]

Nero Cain's ISO:

He starts off on CK3, but note that his read is pretty wishy-washy, going from scum to not sure to anti-town. I'd say this sums it up best:

I've played a ton of games with Chess. We just ended a game and he played very similar to this. He was scum. Even when he's not scum he's highly erratic and many players consider him a bit of a VI...BUT...he is fairly accurate as town bu I don't think he's town this game. Basically wannabe Fate is wannabe.

Then NC disappears for a while. He posts a couple times to avoid replacement, but doesn't contribute. When he returns, he immediately votes Nexus. However, he also quickly unvotes to vote IS. Then he unvotes again to vote CK3. He says that he'd be alright with an IS lynch or a CK3 lynch. However, he only attacks CK3.

However, we see an abrupt turnaround:

I'm here to and I'm waiting on IS to hammer.

ITT IS is scum.

With nothing in between those two quotes. He then makes his biggest post yet, and it's mostly on IS and bristep. His case on IS is pretty much the fact that IS didn't hammer.

A few posts later, he says that either CK3 or IS is scum. His case on CK3 is now mainly meta. Soon after, he votes IS. He attacks Jedo for using a chainsaw defence of IS. He attacks me for not going with IS' wagon. Then he says the scum team is: IS, Wraith, and Jedo. I don't see an argument for Wraith being scum. NC made much better arguments on CK3 and myself. Later on, he clarifies that the sole reason he finds me scummy is because I didn't put IS at L-1. He also says that he also suspects AV and Snake.

Soon after, I give in and put IS at L-1.

A new day begins, and he starts attacking me. He calls OMGUS without seeing my argument. The reason I find this scummy is that if he doesn't like "I'll give my reasoning later" posts, why didn't he say so then?

When Doom calls him on not voting me, NC votes Doom. (Now THAT is OMGUS.) In the same post, he basically admits that his scum reads were given to people who "misread" him. Not a good basis for a vote.

CONCLUSION:

We have a player who changes votes and reads. We have a player that declares a player scum, then forgets about them completely. We have a player who uses OMGUS to determine his scum reads. We have a very scummy player.

The one thing that makes me hesitate is the NK. It makes no sense for a scum to kill a player he said was definitely scum. But I'm overlooking this because:

a) it's WIFOM.
b) I'm not ruling out the existence of an SK yet.

[Umbrage]

@ Shadow:

What? Wraith is null????????

@ EVERYONE:

Wraith is confirmed town. No two ways about it. It makes NO SENSE for he and AV to fake that. Wraith was pretty much considered the most pro-town player here. Why would they bother fake confirming him? Why take the risk? I can't think of a reason. Therefore, unless you have some brilliant explanation saying otherwise, Wraith is town.

Thank you.

[Umbrage]

So basically I'm scum either way? That's less scumhunting and more getting the results you want.

Welcome to my world.

I waited to vote because I wasn't sure if AV was trying to set me up. So I waited until he made the insinuation to confirm what I suspected, and to show that I wasn't pulling stuff out of my rear end. I believe this was the trap to which NC is referring.

Anyway, it's wagon time!

UNVOTE: chesskid3
VOTE: Nero Cain

GO WAGON GO

[Umbrage]

Hi.

[Umbrage]

Now bristep is scummy? Interesting.

[Umbrage]

@ NC:

I'm liking your reading fail. My post on "waiting for IS to hammer" was 666.

My "IIT IS is scum" was 709.

Pretty sure there were 40 odd posts between them. So why lie?

They were right next to each other in the ISO. I suppose should've specified that.

Why do I have to have 20,000 reasons? 1 is plenty enuff to suspect somebody. Yes I do think that avoiding a bandwagon is suspucios but I guess its more of a newb scum tactic.

Defensive much? I don't recall saying that only having 1 reason is scummy. I'm simply putting it out there, it's up to the other players to make up their minds about it.

Though your ISO 107 reads incredibly boastful. I really don't like your "HAHA I haven't been lynched!!!" and you even call yourself very pro-town. What the hell?!? That's for us to judge not you.

I'm one of the most active players in the game, and one of the few who hasn't been tunneling on one or two players the whole game.

And you really don't make alot of sense...you think/thought AV was scum 'cause "[He] has been doing the exact same thing as IS" but for some reason you thought IS was town?
A=B;B=A
AV=IS
AV=scum
IS=/=scum
WTF!!!

I never said that meant AV is scum. Read again.

Do you not understand how this makes you look? Since my reason for suspecting you was that you didn't put IS @ L-1 voluntarily you doing so when TOLD seems like an attempt to quell suspicion on you. Why do you care so much about weather or not we find you suspicious?

I asked you if you wanted me to vote IS. You said yes. Now you're trying to go all "HAHA ITS A SCUM TRAP LULZ"?

I fully admit that it is easier for me to see said misrep when its against me. Though at no time did I ever say "Oh I only thought they were scum b/c they misread me." but the reason I see misreading as a scum tell is...well...I see no pro-town motivation in it. But obviously IS was just ESL or somewhat illiterate. In fact I find it quite scummy when one's words are twisted to serve the purpose of painting.

True, misrep is scummy. But you're calling people who you feel have misrepresented only yourself. And almost all your reads are based on misrep.

Any pro-town/good player should change reads when new information becomes available. I'm pretty sure that the majority of the game, sans Wraith and Chess (go figure), have changed reads/votes. This includes you. You really don't see the hypocrisy here?

Except there's usually some new information, like a flip, that makes us change reads. You don't give solid reasoning for altering your reads.

An SK would be confirmed with a 2nd kill tonight. Its fairly weak to say "Well, for it to fit..."

Do you think Jedo could have possibly been an attempt to frame me?

I said "yet". Tomorrow night we'll know. Until then, we don't. Simple.

And of course Jedo could've framed you, but that could just be you using WIFOM. I don't know. That's my point.

[Umbrage]

@ Shadow: Do you think CK3 is scum?

If NC is scum, that means CK3 is town. They really don't look like they were distancing yesterday. NC wanted a hammer on CK3, I can't see scum doing that on the first day.

[Umbrage]

OK, I've been thinking, and here are the scum as I see it:

NC/AV

CK3/Shadow

If someone from the first group is scum, it means the second group is town and vice versa. As for a third member, that leaves doombunny, bristep, and smargaret. These players could be partnered with either team.

HOWEVER:

We still don't know if there's an SK. So we could have the first group as scum, and someone from the second as the SK.

WHAT DOES THIS MEAN?

I have no clue.

[Umbrage]

@ AV: I've said for a long time that I felt Shadow and CK3 were scum together, this is based on their long argument D1, which I read as distancing, as well as how quickly they've forgotten that debate. Now they call each other town. However, my ISO of Nero Cain made me almost certain that he is not scum with CK3. NC appeared far too willing for CK3 to swing yesterday, and I doubt scum would try something that risky D1. I link him with you mainly because of your #1001. You expressed a little suspicion of him, but keep saying he's townish. Also, you both started the day off with some hard tunneling on me.

If I had to name the entire scum team right now, I would say NC, AV, and DB. They're all connected, at least in my mind. But I'm not ruling out Shadow/chesskid3 as a possibility. They both narrowly evaded a lynch yesterday. As said before, I will become more sure of the scum once one of these players is lynched.

[Umbrage]

a) I never said I wouldn't vote him, I said I don't want to vote for him simply because you want me to do so.

b) Most of my suspicion on Doom is due to that I think you're distancing him. So it's silly to vote him instead of you.

[Umbrage]

@ smargaret: If the choice is Doom lynch or no lynch, I would go with Doom lynch.

Does anyone want me to respond to Nero Cain? I thought it wasn't really worth responding to, but if you feel otherwise, I'll point out why it's stupid.

[Umbrage]

They were right next to each other in the ISO. I suppose should've specified that.

I fail to see how having back to back quotes in ISO is scummy.

It shows how quickly your opinions changed.

I'm one of the most active players in the game, and one of the few who hasn't been tunneling on one or two players the whole game.

This is more than laughable. Just b/c a player is active doesn't make them pro-town + not scummy. Same with tunneling. Tunneling as a scum tell WTF!!! If you believed this then why were so hesitant to join the IS wagon. He was tunneling on Shadow like crazy.

You're acting like I said tunneling was always a scum tell. It's not. There are no guaranteed scum tells. Tunneling is usually anti-town. My read on IS was that of an anti-town player, certainly, but not scum.

I never said that meant AV is scum. Read again.

Honestly, I think AV is more likely to be scum than IS.

but then.....

I'm not saying AV is scum, just that if you think IS scummy, you have to think AV scummy.

Is it a chain or wooden fence?

Way to misrepresent! Of course I think AV is scum. The first quote is from my ISO #130 explaining why your argument was false: I never said AV was scummy because he said the same thing as IS. The last two quotes are from the last day, and were directed toward the town. They were a last ditch attempt to stop the IS bandwagon by pointing out that AV did everything IS did and more.

I asked you if you wanted me to vote IS. You said yes. Now you're trying to go all "HAHA ITS A SCUM TRAP LULZ"?

You SHOULD have voted on your own. You just got done telling me that tunneling is a scum tell so how was he NOT tunelling on Shadow? Hypocrissy thy name is Umbrage.

Please. I should NOT have voted on my own, because I never wanted that stupid fucking lynch to happen in the first place! I only voted when the town needed my vote for a majority and avoid a no lynch.

"VOTE IS"

"OK"

"TOO SLOW DIE SCUM"

^ your argument

True, misrep is scummy. But you're calling people who you feel have misrepresented only yourself. And almost all your reads are based on misrep.

No they aren't. I mean obviously thats how you, Doom and Bris are trying to paint me but...my original read on Wraith + IS was....

Wraith: Hai guys I've gotten up to page 16.
Nero:Yeah I need to catch up.
IS: Wraith has read the WHOLE thread so why can't you, Nero
Wraith: I've now read the whole thread.
Nero:So how does IS know wraith was done reading before b4 he announced it in the thread?
Jedo:ZOMG!!! Thats not a scum tell.

After that IS continued to misrep me. So logically it looked like those three were good potential suspects.

Yes... if you're only reading what people say to you, and aren't really focused on scumhunting.

Except there's usually some new information, like a flip, that makes us change reads. You don't give solid reasoning for altering your reads.

I'm 100% sure that both IS and Jedo flipped town and Wraith is unfortunately "confirmed".

Bris' case on me is weak.
Doom is chainsawing you.
And you're just a hypocrite.

Say it all you want, scum, it ain't gonna come true.

I said "yet". Tomorrow night we'll know. Until then, we don't. Simple.

Your logic can't be this bad.

"I don't think scum would kill a person they've thought was scum. Therefore I think the SK killed him."

"But we won't be ab;e to confirm th SK until tonight."

"Doesn't really matter, I'm going to

pretend

there's an SK so I can make the case fit."

And you know there isn't an SK? How is that?

And of course Jedo

I assume this is a typo

could've framed you, but that could just be you using WIFOM. I don't know. That's my point.

So...Nero killing or not killing Jedo last night is WIFOM and deserves a vote.

Bristep potentially framing Nero is WIFOM and DOESN'T derserve a vote.

Nightkill speculation is always WIFOM. The difference between you and bristep is that I find you scummy IN THE ACTUAL THREAD. Right now you're clinging to the excuse of "why would I kill Jedo?" and it makes me think that maybe you did kill Jedo, just to use that excuse today. You see? WIFOM.

I'm more sure of my vote than ever. NC is hopping on the closest bandwagon (me) to avoid a lynch. It's clear he hasn't been reading the thread very carefully.

[Umbrage]

Whine whine whine Umbrage is scummy but I can't say why blah blah.

*yawn*

[Umbrage]

Loliar. You said "If you find IS scummy you have to find AV scummy" i.e. if IS is scummy then I am scummy because I said the same thing according to you.

Except

I

didn't find IS scummy! The rest of the town did!

Then why not get on the Shadow wagon earlier? That was the route to preventing IS' lynch, not a useless vote on Jedo. You only said you disliked the wagon WHILST at the same time supporting it "if need be." You didn't try to stop the wagon, you just tried to stay off it.

The Shadow wagon had come and gone. It didn't matter who I voted, everyone was all "WAH WAH INTERNET IS SCUM". Curiously enough, I notice you weren't on the IS wagon, but you never really spoke out against it either. Now THAT is trying to stay off a wagon while making sure it goes through.

Didn't you do exactly the same thing?

I've always said NK speculation is WIFOM. I can only assume you're talking about how I said you framed me. That wasn't speculation. That was me expecting you to do something you would do if you were scum, and you doing it.

inb4misrep
inb4hypocrite

[Umbrage]

@ AV:

"IS did X"
"IS is scummy"
"AV = IS"

Basic algebra says you're bullshitting. It doesn't matter what you thought. You're still saying I should be considered scummy for doing what IS did if IS was considered scummy.

Let me try one MORE time. I didn't think IS was scummy. Other people thought IS was scummy. I pointed out that AV did what IS was under fire for.

It hadn't, it still had a chance if people pulled their finger out and actually voted him.
AND WHAT IS THIS MISREP?* I made my voting analysis and said I thought the wagon was on a TOWNIE and that it was SCUM DRIVEN and convinced SNAKE to LEAVE THE WAGON. THAT IS ME SPEAKING OUT ABOUT IT. THAT IS ME TRYING TO STOP IT GOING THROUGH.

Stop the bullshit now.

Well, I'm sorry for not posting DIE SHADOW DIE every 5 minutes. That's how IS ended up dead. And if you really were against the IS wagon you'd know how it was unstoppable.

You were speculating what the NK was about. It's the same.

At first it was speculation, yes, then you were kind enough to prove it for me. Thank you kindly.

@ NC:

No it doesn't. If anything is proves you can't read very well. I thought IS was scummy therefore I wanted HIM to hammer and when he didn't I put a case on him.

I don't care if you can retroactively assign motives to your actions. It means nothing. I'm talking about the PATTERN of actions, not the reasoning behind them.

But you just got done telling me that MY tunneling is scummy. So how is mine scummy and Is' was "anti-town? Of course in hindsight you can say he flipped town wich is a pretty big cop out.
Defending a dead town player is really scummy.

And really how can you say I'm tunneling right after you got done telling me that "my opinions change to much".

1+1=/=3

WHAT THE HELL???????????? I NEVER SAID YOU WERE TUNNELING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I SAID TUNNELING WASN'T ALWAYS A SCUM TELL WHAT THE HELL WHAT THE HELL WHAT THE HELL

Didn't you just get done with saying that AV WASN'T scum?

+ If you think AV is scum why hop on my bandwagon instead of ya know trying to start an AV wagon?

EZ lynch is for scummers.

FUCK I NEVER SAID THAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Why stop the IS wagon? You said you were WILLING to hammer AND you called him anti-town.

ANTI-TOWN DOES NOT MEAN SCUM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I WAS WILLING TO HAMMER TO AVOID A NO-LYNCH WHICH BY THE WAY IS A PRO-TOWN THING TO DO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

@ Doombunny9:

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

Fail bandwagon fails.

[Umbrage]

I'm convinced now. The scum team is AV, NC, and DB9. Good game to all.

[Umbrage]

I'm convinced now. The scum team is AV, NC, and DB9. Good game to all.

k
vote DB with me

You know what? That's an EXCELLENT suggestion!

UNVOTE: Nero Cain
VOTE: Doombunny9

Hey! AV! Time to put your money where your mouth is! Do you STILL think Doom is scummy? DO YA?

[Umbrage]

I don't like that both Umbridge and Shadow (

and

Nero Cain) suddenly jump onto bunny like that, the former two at the whims of chesskid. She's either a major bus or an innocent target. TBH my gut is leaning with the latter.

I want to put AV to the test. If I'm wrong, and AV honestly thinks DB9 is scummy, there's no reason why he shouldn't hammer. But if I'm right and they're the scum... well, let's just say I'm VERY interested in what AV does next. Nero Cain as well. I think they're distancing, and I'm calling their bluffs right now.

[Umbrage]

What the hell?!? You need to stop being stupid Wraith. My vote was on Doom early so I don't see why your name dropping me like that.

What the hell Shadow? You calling me scummy yet you avoided my bandwagon?

We lynch UM or Bristep.

Yep. As I thought. It's one thing to have your vote on Doom, but quite another to have him lynched, right?

[Umbrage]

What the hell?!? You need to stop being stupid Wraith. My vote was on Doom early so I don't see why your name dropping me like that.

What the hell Shadow? You calling me scummy yet you avoided my bandwagon?

We lynch UM or Bristep.

Yep. As I thought. It's one thing to have your vote on Doom, but quite another to have him lynched, right?

.................................................

That doesn't even make sense.

+ AV is on V/LA so way to stall the bunny wagon.

Yes it does.

Because you are his buddy. And you want to distance your buddy. But you don't want to lynch him.

[Umbrage]

I'm sure Doom's scum. chesskid3 was kind enough to give me the idea to put AV and NC to the test. Curious how everyone says he should stop being a VI, but when he has a good idea everyone's all DONT LISTEN TO CHESS!!111

Speaking of which, anyone else think CK3 should fully claim? We know he's a PR, and there likely isn't another doc, so if he's a cop he should post his results now.

I'm not PotC, by the way. I don't how you got that idea.

[Umbrage]

I'd like for AV to return first.

[Umbrage]

Well, I'm sure he's handling it better than you would, CK3, but I'm not convinced.

[Umbrage]

Love the hypocrisy, UM.

Spam this another 50 times and you'll have your entire D2 play.

[Umbrage]

WHOOPS, I forgot to mention how NC's unvote fits EXACTLY with my distancing theory!

AurorusVox
Nero Cain
Doombunny9

THEY ARE THE SCUM!

[Umbrage]

Nero was looking for any excuse to get off that wagon. CK3 is just an idiot.

[Umbrage]

Unless Prana made a mistake UM is most likely has a town pm now why the fuck does he play like scum?

OH. MY. GOD.

I am trying to find a way of reading this where you do not admit you are scum, but I am failing.

UNVOTE: Doombunny9
VOTE: Nero Cain

Yes, that's a hammer. If Nero Cain isn't scum after that post, I give up. Seriously, WHAT THE FUCK IS THAT SUPPOSED TO MEAN? HOW WOULD YOU KNOW I AM SUPPOSED TO BE TOWN?

[Umbrage]

I don't care. Whoever is NOT voting NC after that post is scum with him. The man just ADMITTED it for Pete's sake!

[Umbrage]

And don't worry CK3, I feel exactly the same way about you. You've contributed nothing to this game so far. You spam the thread. Your reads have no logic to them. I think everyone here will agree that, scum or town, you're the worst player here.

[Umbrage]

So are you scum with NC, or is this just standard CK3 behaviour?

[Umbrage]

Unless Prana made a mistake UM is most likely has a town pm now why the fuck does he play like scum?

TELL ME HOW HE CAN MAKE A POST LIKE THAT AS TOWN!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Umbrage]

Please. Could you two be any more obvious scum? It's likely lylo now, and you two vote me without a second thought?

VOTE: Shadow1psc

CK3 I can buy as just really stupid town. Shadow on the other hand... from the other game I played with him, he seemed to be above stupid crap like this.

@ CK3: If you're not scum, unvote now, or we've probably lost the game.

And don't give me any GAW HE NOES HOW MANY SCUMZ DERE R!!11 bullshit. We clearly don't have an SK, so we're looking at 3 mafia. Again, CK3, if you are town, you've just lost the game for us. Thank you.

[Umbrage]

Hold on, what's the difference between mylo and lylo? I thought they were the same thing.

@ Shadow: You can't be serious. IF I AM PUT AT L-1 THE SCUM WILL HAMMER AND WIN THE FUCKING GAME. THERE ARE THREE SCUM, SO IF ONE TOWNIE VOTES FOR ANOTHER TOWNIE, IT IS GAME OVER. WHICH IS WHY IF YOU ARE TOWN YOU SHOULD UNVOTE ME THIS MINUTE.

[Umbrage]

@ CK3: If you are town, I'm never playing with you again. You really don't get it, do you? THIS. IS. FUCKING. LYLO. EITHER WE LYNCH SCUM NOW, OR WE LOSE. IT'S A LITTLE LATE FOR A POLICY LYNCH, YOU MORON.

And guess what else? If there's no quickhammer of me, all that means is that you are scum with Shadow. In fact, I hope you are scum right now, because if you are not, then we've already lost.

[Umbrage]

@ bristep: From my POV, either Shadow and CK3 are scum, or it's game over. So there's really no point in my not voting either of them.

@ CK3: Your entire play has been 'pure rage'. I actually think that yes, you DID fake it. You seemed to know NC's alignment when nobody else did. How curious.

[Umbrage]

FUCK WHAT THE HELL JUST HAPPENED???????????????

[Umbrage]

OK. So, I know smargaret is lying about me targeting Wraith. Therefore, CK3 is confirmed town to me. And smargaret is confirmed scum.

UNVOTE: Shadow1psc
VOTE: smargaret

As for buddies... hm... Shadow maybe? AV?

[Umbrage]

Thinking it over, I'm fairly certain that AV is smargaret's partner. He was likely SP's target N1. Look at SP's ISO. I'm still not sure of the third scum, but it's got to be either Doombunny9 or Shadow1psc.

[Umbrage]

WHAT? AV hammered?

No, there's Shadow, AV, and smargaret, right? Yep, they're the scum team.

[Umbrage]

SHUT UP
GET OUT OF MY GODDAMN THREAD

?

[Umbrage]

@ CK3: We're confirmed town to each other. I'm not happy about it either, but that's mafia.

[Umbrage]

I don't like how AV keeps asking for Doom to hammer. Shadow, if you are town, GET OFF THIS FUCKING WAGON. If the scumteam is AV, smargaret, and Doom, we're finished!

[Umbrage]

Oh.

So, which of you was the idiot townie who just lost us the game? I'm guessing Shadow.

[Umbrage]

OH YEAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Go ahead and post the scum QT!

High-Fives to my buddies!!! And consolation hugs to the townies!!

This was my first scum game, so any constructive criticism you have would be greatly appreciated.

Also, regarding my hammer of NC, it was mainly because of that post where he said I should have a town PM. I still don't know what that was about, I figured it was because he saw me target bristep who didn't die, but the night actions don't show that. So, a couple questions:

a) What was that about?
and
b) How scummy was my hammer of NC seen? Did I have a reasonable chance to survive?

Liar was probably the town MVP, until he replaced out. chesskid3 was the only person who was figuring things out, but his play overall helped the town lose.

Wow, I can't believe I WON IWONIWONIWONIWON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Umbrage]

It was kind of funny having you guys block chess three nights running when he was a Vanilla who had as good as claimed as such.

The sad thing is, it apparently didn't make any difference.

[Umbrage]

It still stands that I'm not playing with chess again until he improves. Chess, you have fantastic instincts for this game. But everyone you talk to wants to kill you. You were voting, in lylo, someone you admitted you thought was town. You posting style D3 can only be described as spamming. Your use of the word 'retarded' is disgusting and offensive. You don't explain your reads. You overreact when people don't agree with you. If you want anyone to take you seriously, you have to change. Otherwise, more and more people will blacklist you. I don't know if any of this behaviour is put on, but it's working against you.

[Umbrage]

[Umbrage]

I liked the videos, the only problem (for me anyway) was that the intro was solely made of PotC clips, which added to the scum's confusion D1.

[Umbrage]

but it's extremely hard to find any good pirate type stuff otherwise

Do I have to post this again?

[Umbrage]

Well, if that doesn't teach me to preview my posts, nothing will.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQ7SVMVrick

[Umbrage]

THAT IS THE BEST PIRATE MOVIE EVARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

[Umbrage]

By the way, do you guys think I should change my avatar? I was planning on switching it when the game was over, but I kinda like the way it ripples.