Mini 1137: Long Overdue Mafia [Game Over!]

[mikemike778]

/confirm

[mikemike778]

yeah, cool right? I think it's a combination of x-ray and visible with most of the intensity cut out. But it's been some time since I found it, so I could be wrong about the specific wavelengths.

someone's been having you on ...

[mikemike778]

Jahudo

As a non-basketball fan, I find your sport very scummy ..

[mikemike778]

EBWOP - silly me I clicked the wrong tag.

VOTE: Jahudo

That's better

[mikemike778]

1. Sometime in the evenings UK time usually. Have more time this week hence the AM post.
2. Only played 3 newbie games so difficult to say, not a fan of walls though

[mikemike778]

Hmm.. drawing attention to yourself by outright refusing to random vote isn't something I'd expect a scum player to do ... not sure why a town player would do either though so would interested to hear from Voided:

a) Why he has refused
b) What he thinks is the best way of starting a game if not RVS

His answers (and lack of any questions himself) don't seem to show a massive enthausiasm for RQS either.

[mikemike778]

Xalxe: you seriously thought the scum were going to line up three votes to hammer someone on day one?
I'm only pushing this point because this seems like irrational fear to scare off potential wagons. I don't think the idiotking wagon built that quickly in the first place.

Agree 100%

Can't see any chance of scum pushing through a quick lynch at this point, would be a crazy move and if they did then they'd almost certainly give away at least one of them maybe more. Maybe in a newbie game if all the scum were playing the first game. Surely getting a few wagons to look for reactions is the best way to get the game out of RVS. Black mark against Xalxe in my (green) book

I've never liked pushes this early in the game. They sometimes (oftentimes) start wagons that lead to a townie getting killed with very little reason. At least that's how it's gone in my experience, so I'm wary when someone tries to get one going so soon, especially after RVS and without any explanation.

Well after getting a similar push against me (as town) in 1040 for using Random.org and then finding out it was led by scum, I can emphasise with this.

The above was accompanied by pretty notable tunnelling though - don't see anything wrong with rat's push so far. Questioning his reponse is good, given his reponses looks like he wants everyone else to get the game going which is not pro-town.

As an aside...if any of you have ever played with andrew94 before...he is a pleasant enough player but is nothing but a detriment to town. I'd be up for cutting town losses and just removing the detriment before he gets too far in the game to where he (if town) would actually be relied on for his gameplay...not lamented for it. I.e. I'm up for an andrew94 policy lynch.

No I haven't. Think its pretty off to be talking policy lynches at this point though and pretty scummy for that matter.

[mikemike778]

Why is Andrew a detriment to town ? Example ? Presumably this is a reference to previous games and not just here. I'm not violently against policy lynches in general on Day 1 but it seems way too early to be suggesting it.

@Cecily - if directed at me, I wasn't suggesting you were tunneling, it was in relation to my example in 1040

[mikemike778]

Not much to add to this.

If its not a gambit then obviously Voided will be lynched at some point today. Not just yet though.

UNVOTE:

Fitz doesn't seem too keen on us discussing what is happenning in this game - firstly bringing up the possible policy lynch based on Andrew's meta rather than the current game and then looking to bring the day to an abrupt halt.

[mikemike778]

Honestly, this sounds more like Rat just picked a random target and then just decided to give him a guilty verdict.

However, I believe that in this kind of game there can also be naive or insane or paranoid cops, which would make his claim practically useless otherwise.

The one big overhanding question, though, is this: Why the hell didya pick me? Don't like the fact that I'm not really participating? Still ticked off that I didn't participate in RVS?

Well Rat seems to think his PM confirmed he's not insane and it can be relied upon.

[mikemike778]

unvote

I don't see how we could lynch anyone other than voided at this point. Unfortunately, the only way to see if pappums was lying was lynch him, and if he were speaking truth, town will be up, and if he were lying, either he'll get NK'd giving us absolutely no information, or he'll be saved by the doctor, hopefully resulting in no NK, or someone else will die tonight and Pappum's will be the next victim for tomorrow.

How do you know there is a doctor ?

[mikemike778]

Nobody hammer until pappums gets back to the thread and answers questions and then some.

Agreed 100%

Rat specifically said -

Do not quick lynch

. Given the timing, its possible its a (town) fake claim intended to check for reactions. Pretty dangerous strategy if it is but nontheless at least wait for him to get back - its not like we are racing againt time to meet the deadline.

[mikemike778]

what i really want to know is:

what does everyone think of voidedmafia's defense of himself?

As good as could be expected but really there's absolutely no reason for him not to ultimately be the day's lynch. If Rat is scum it doesn'tmake any sense for him whatsoever to claim the guilty on Voided unless its a gambit, either way Voided is probably scum.

i did an

exhausting

(lol) re-read of the game, and i am definately not liking havingfitz' call for a policy lynch on andrew. if andrew had been actively doing anti-town things and was being a menace, then i probably would have went along with it, as i agree with pl's a good deal of the time. but when it was based solely on meta, i dont think so. combined with his rush to get this day over, he is my #2 scumread atm.

Agreed 100% - as discussed earlier, both these examples indicate Fitz avoidin talking about what was happenning in the game both by discussing PL and then attempting to end - if he did end up turning up scum, makes me wonder if there was some sort of minor scum slip early on, he was looking to avoid talking about.

Voided to answer one of your other questions, I've no other reason than the Rat claim to vote for you (not that my vote is being used currently but you know what I mean) but given that its Day 1, thats more than a good enough reason in itself.

[mikemike778]

Thoughts on stuff ...

Rat - I like the gambit in principle, it was a pretty good way to get the game going out of RVS. On the flip side, he kept it going for long enough to make a potential mislynch by gambit a genuine possibility. But then again if he did (and he is voting for him) think Voided was scum then maybe he figured that lynching Void should happen one way so if the gambit led to a lynch then that's fine. Ultimately I don't see a scum player doing this Day 1.

Voided - Was pretty happy with his defence overall and would scum really claim that ? It looked to all extents and purposes like he was doomed so if he was going to fake claim a PR, why fake claim a relatively minor one that the town could probably afford to risk lynching and one with no real chance of drawing out a PR. I'm not seeing him as scum at the moment.

Fitz - Seems pretty jumpy- firstly attempting to get an early close to Day 1 after Rats specifically said do not quick lynch and then immediately jumping at Rat. I am kinda seeing his points re Andrew now though and not going to hold those against him. Also potentially an element of role fishing when he queried Rats in 201.

Andrew - Not the foggiest, am I right in thinking he thinks Rats is scum because there are no none sane cops in Mini-Normals ?

[mikemike778]

Fitz

He benefits from the fact you (and some others) apparently think scum would never do such a gambit. That is, some people now think he is town because of his lie. That would be the benefit. See how that works?

Well my take on it is that its pretty clear he would be drawing a big bullseye on himself by doing this. Sure he might not be lynched but if not ... there's a pretty good chance he'll be investigated which unless he's investigation proof would be the end of him.

I've a scum read on you.

-Looking to finish the day early and pushing for it
-Apparently writing off large parts of the day
-Flying onto a Rats wagon on the safe grounds of LAL

If town, surely you'd want to make the most of all info available not just launch it into the recycle bin. Whether you agree with Rats' tactics or not - there's stuff there to be used. You seem way too happy to disregard stuff that has been posted as being of no use ... you claim to have stopped looking for scum after the claim - why not look for more scum ??? Because you had your mislynch in the bag and were happy with your day's work ?

VOTE: HavingFitz

[mikemike778]

i cant really do anything due to the fact that people are not responding to me apart from calling me 'vi' and 'speak english pls'

Well the simple answer is speak English then ...

If you can't write coherent sentences then its going to cause more problems for you in life than this site. I'd suggest you seek out some assistance in this area.

If you can write coherently but just can't be bothered to do so then you are wasting everyone's time playing on this site.

[mikemike778]

I see no point of joining a flame war.

Took a look at mikemike's iso and found...fluff. then content

He answers question and post fluff from 0-5
post 6 is agreeing with 2 people and saying policy lynch is scummy
post 7 is saying policy lynch is bad
post 8 is pointing out the obvious
The rest is mostly content tho

I approve of a paupams lynch because his lying could have caused a mislynch and I'm a supporter of LAL

That's nice but is there a punchline to your reading of my iso or are you just doing going to do the 'information not analysis' thing? Kinda looks a little like you were going to do a proper read through all the players to find something scummy to frame them with but got bored after me so figured Paupam sort of lied so he'll do.

[mikemike778]

Fitz says

So your take is beneficial to him if he is scum. Scum would never do that. Or would they. Pappums may or may not be scum but what he is…in this instance at least…is a confirmed liar. That is enough in my book to lynch. As for there being a “good chance he is investigated”…looks who’s rolefishing now.

As for your scum reads.
1) I’ve explained this in detail and stand by it. Had pappums’ claim been legitimate IMO a quicklynch of Void would have been in the town’s best interest.
2) I’m not writing off anything. I think the time would have been better served not working under false pretenses which were introduced by pappum. And as I have mentioned…regardless of the false pretenses…the D1 events will still be of value later on.
3) How long should I have waited to vote the person I wanted lynched most? Ridiculous rationale. And you may condone lying and misleading town but I do not. Lynching liars IMO is a safe bet.

And there was no mislynch in the bag when pappums claim was still considered legitimate. If you have issues regarding the potential mislynch of Void you need to look at the cause of it…not the people who believed pappum.

So me suggesting that there's a reasonable chance Rats will be investigated is role fishing is it ? How do you figure that one out ?

As for your answers, OK fair enough but we'll have to agree to disagree - sorry but I have a scum vibe about you and the way you've played the game and reacted to stuff that has happenned (mainly the gambit and the revealing of the gambit).

Not read through Neil's walls yet ...

[mikemike778]

your gambit didn't accomplish much tho

Well its taken us from being in RVS to having a lot ... of stuff to analyse.

[mikemike778]

EBWOP:

Your early claim was poor play and your ego at thinking you have pegged a scumbuddy based on my posts is ridiculous.

This sounds like you don't trust him, but the rest of your posting sounds like you do enough to lynch. Unless this is also a post you want to have ready in case voided flips town.

When I made this post directed at pappums (as well as now) I did not trust him. What is your point? "Sounds like I do enough to lynch?" What? I don't trust him and I am voting him. I don't understand what you are trying to say.

I went back to this post to try and figure out what you were talking about. I thought it had came after his confession as opposed to prior to it. My comments towards pappums were made in regards to him expressing suspicions towards me...that has nothing to do with trust...that has to do with the knowledge he is off on his read. Which would be consistent IMO with my read on his early claim (which at the time I thought was truthful) and in fact now...consistent with his crap gambit.

To clarify...I do not trust him post-confession...but pre-confession, when the quote above was taken, I did trust his fake result (for reasons already provided). I did not agree, obviously, with his read on me or the logic behind his (what I perceived as truthful) early D1 claim.

Queston re Rat, you don't trust him but is this purely down to the gambit - ie if anyone had attempted a similar gambit would you have automatically given them a scum read ?

I think my main issue with you is your immediate over-reactions, ie we have guilty on Voided quick lets end day now, Andrew is bad player quick lets policy lynch, Rats wasn't cop after all - must be scum lynch him. Probably need to get my backside in gear and read some of your previous games to see if its consistent with your meta I suppose.

[mikemike778]

For future reference, mike, if you didn't know, you can have more than one post quoted. There's a quote button for posts in the 10 most recent posts below where you type yours.

Thanks, never knew about this

[mikemike778]

All possibilities need exploring all the time. Blindly following someone's claim like this (in so doing assuming that one of them HAS to be scum) is poor play, because it means you aren't thinking for yourself. If there are really NO OTHER POSSIBILITIES, then sure, a lynch is a fair conclusion to reach. This was not the case, however.

Pappum's claim was suspicious for reasons I've already stated about three times: it was D1, pappums claimed sane 1-shot day cop, and would have absolutely wasted his power. The fact that he could have (and claimed to) hit scum was irrelevant, because the very act of doing it would be dumb. As such, pappums was either being incredibly stupid or he had something else under his sleeve. Believing his claim and following him was just about the last thing you should have done.

And as a rule, quicklynches are bad for the town. Quicklynches on D1 are no exception.

I agree entirely ... the big thing for me was the plea to not quick-lynch. Fitz did 2 things pretty quickly

1. Believed and trusted Rat
2. Rejected Rat's advice.

We had plenty of time left in the day so there was absolutely no need to quick-lynch and no reason to do it, yet Fitz thought we should purely because he was following someone who specifically told him not to do it. There's a contradiction here.

As for Rat, yeah I get the WIFOM thing I really do ... but I stand by the investigation comment, just because they are not saying it, it doesn't mean its not true - there's not a person here I expect who doesn't think that:

a) The chance of some kind of investigation type power being used on Rat increased the second he put his gambit out there
b) Rat knew this

Its common sense. OK, now you could say its not optimal town play either drawing attention on yourself either but to me it seems to me to be even less optimal-scum play. Looking at motivations - as scum I just don't see it as worth the gamble, as town you can say the means justify the end if you catch a scum - maybe voided was scum and virtually confessed. Town players are more expendable to their side than scum players.

Fitz

Why would town lie to the rest of town, for a PR to claim and possibly draw out a real cop if one existed, implicate someone who could be town as scum, consider letting possible town be lynched based on gut, and then base the only scumhunting they (pappums) has attempted on that lie?

There's 2 reasons I see, first to reaction-hunt and if you do turn out to be scum and rat town then in my book that says the gambit worked on that basis. Secondly, as discussed above - if Voided was/is scum its perfectly possible, he could pretty much give himself up under the pressure of a 'guilty'.

I don't see any reason it would draw out a cop - its a closed set-up, any cop would know that its perfectly possible to have another 1 day cop.

[mikemike778]

The willingness to vote Jerbs to avoid a replacement is very scummy IMO.
.

Actually I agree with you on this one , replacements looking at things fresh can be pretty dangerous to the scum team hence why they are often NKd sharpish - voting primarily to avoid a rep doesn't look good to me at all.

Nontheless my vote remains with Fitz for the same reasons as discussed previously.

[mikemike778]

i have seen plenty of townies say they want to lynch new replacements in a number of games, so this is null.

I've only played 3 games plus this so its not exactly conclusive - but I've never seen this and I have seen scum NK new reps (and read them discussing it in their QTs) so I disagree - it is scummy in my book.

PEdit: Pappums rat needs to die. The desire to lynch replacements is not null, it's scum. And LAL is tried and true. Gambiting like you did holds zero benefit for Town.
I'm usually very, very against speedlynches, but the day has already fallen into bickering and recursion. Let's get done with this.

But seriously, can someone tell me why people aren't voting for PR?

Well as I've said previously - I'd disagree that gambiting like this has no potential benefits (heck we might still be RVS ing now without it) and I've not seen anything else that screams scum at me from Rat unlike Fitz so my vote stays there for the same reasons as before.

alright pine is scummy because he unvotes and votes pappums again??
why would you do that
hint: change ur order in vote count

Thanks for that ... information stored for future

binning

erm, use I mean. Andrew, what are your thoughts on Fitz ?

Alarmingly after reading 385, I'm kinda finding myself agreeing with my chief suspect Fitz regarding Cecily as well.

[mikemike778]

P.T: Admittedly, I'm focusing solely on Pappums until his lynch. That's not to say I don't have any other suspects (Cecily, for one), but I'm just really sure that Rat is the lynch for today.

Though, I need to also reread, to look for a potential buddy/buddies if he does flip scum. If he flips town, though, that would probably clear Cecily and put Fitz in the spotlight, would it not?

Why would it clear Cecily ? Because she said that the Rat gambit essentially cleared him in her eyes ? That's pretty naive to think well in that case if Rat is town then Cecily must be as well ??? Naive or a scum player looking to protect their own anyway.

Gambiting isn't scummy when it's on D4 to protect a power role or to get known scum lynched. Done on D1 in order to get someone who (at the time) was a total null read is remarkably scummy.

What do you mean by get someone ? Get someone lynched ? - he expressly stated do not quick lynch and then came out in time to prevent the lynch, that's not attempting to get them lynched and there's no reason for anyone to think that ... unless they discussed using a fake gambit to push for a quick mislynch in a QT pre-game that is. To me it seems that Rat is looking too easy a target for scum players to attack - using the Lynch all Liars policy as a convenient vehicle to force a lynch. To me - Fitz's early play reads scum and that's a better reason to use my vote that just voting because of the gambit.

I dislike the way you seem to view your way of thinking as the only correct way - "You're getting better" as a response to someone who disagreed with you in general agreeing with one of your points

I take this with a pinch of salt .. agreeing with you over some of your points doesn't mean I think your not scum I'm afraid Mister Fitz.

[mikemike778]

@mikemike...pappums lie is only part of the reason he has my vote. Are there people who are voting him simply based on his lie? Are you voting me based on that assumption?

I've explained why I'm voting for you ... its not changed.

Re - Rat Outside of the gambit I've not seen anything particularly scummy from him so at this point, the only reason for me to vote Rat would be on the basis of the gambit. I've already come to the conclusion that it (the gambit) doesn't point in the scum direction so I wont be voting for him as things stand particularly seeing as I have a scum read another player. This was my point.

Although re your vote - my take on it was and is that it was all 'about the gambit' certainly earlier on with some fluff added later on.

[mikemike778]

When you get to it, I explain exactly how clever scum would benefit from it shortly after I replace in.

Its just WIFOM ... Like Bub says this kinda thing gets scum lynched. You can talk till your blue in the face about how scum will do this because town think they wouldn't blah blah but facts are some people think its scummy and if there's enough of them, the player will get lynched.

Therefore its not a great move for scum in my book.

Rat is by no means clear (admittedly when he first confessed I did put a town label on him which has drifted back down to 'dont know') but there seems to me to be way too much enthausiasm for the gambit as a clear scum-tell).

[mikemike778]

Does anyone really disagree with the future possibility of a policy lynch on Andrew? I just don't seem him coming out pro-town... and I've given him chances.

(I'm not saying lynch Andrew right now, just throwing the possibility out there)

Well if we were going to policy lynch, it should really be day 1.

Having said that I'm not a fan of them unless there's not much else to go on ... my instict still says Fitz and I'm going to back that - would probably only consider a switch to Andrew if it looked/looks like a majority on Fitz isn't going to happen.

[mikemike778]

Yet, we firmly believe that Rat (or Fitz, depending on the wagon) are scum. Even if we have other suspicions, why would it be stupidity to push for a wagon we believe in?

If that's supposed to be directed towards me, you're missing the point. We should vote who we want to vote until we're under the pressure of a deadline (six days does not qualify) or there is a compelling reason to end the day (there isn't). If fitz or pappums is your top choice, fine, but I'm going to vote who I feel like voting, and I certainly won't let anyone tell me that scumhunting is "unhelpful" or "dumb" or cowardly.

Yep agree with PT here - still a bit of time till the deadline, you should vote for who you think is scum - another black mark to Ces in my book for looking to force PT into voting for one of Rat or Fitz. Seems very scummy in my book as things stand .. obviously less so if either flips scum at some point.

Is there ANYONE who seriously thinks PR is Town anymore?

If so, please speak up so we know to lynch you for being his scumbuddy and wrap this up on D2

.

Your gambit was the single scummiest thing in the entire thread. By a wide margin. And lying is ALWAYS scummy, it's just mitigated (at best) when actual Townies do it for legitimate reasons.

No it wasn't as discussed before, Rat has kinda gone a bit nuts - not sure what to think of him anymore but with all the stuff going on recently, why the heck are you going on about the gambit which is probably the biggest thing anyone's done to drive the game on so far regardless of alignment. Whilst we are on the subject of most scummiest things in the game .. making threats to persuade people not to give their opinion on stuff (the line in bold) is up there with anything said so far this game.

I have a slightly unfortunate tendency to view things as probability trees, which necessarily involve speculation if you wish to add any analysis not directly numerically implied. As I am NewbTown(2 games finished elsewhere, one of which was a bastard mod and therefore non-educational), I have a less nuanced view of tells than others so there are possibly things that I miss.
In this case, the summary is that I do not think both are scum, and split the other probabilities with pappums rat being slightly more likely than havingfitz to be mafia and a smaller but not insignificant probability of then both being town. I will make a note to keep my thoughts in my head at least until I can provide a summary with them. I will vote based on the probability tree on Friday night, when I have a few hours break scheduled between pieces of coursework and it's close enough to the deadline for me to be comfortable with bringing someone to L1 or hammering.

Sorry no offence intended but I've no idea what you are on about. Who do you think is scum ?

[mikemike778]

@mike, I just found it silly that PT would focus his attention on someone other than the main two suspects. It seemed like distancing, and its not only that he didn't vote for one or the other, but he pretty much seemed to ignore them all together which leads me to ask who he didn't want to get himself involved with.

@Jahudo, in my experiences on this site and especially IRL scum tend to take two approaches. They're either very forceful and abrasive, trying to be leaders, or they're trying to stay under the radar by not posting frequently, and in their posts saying not very much at all. So far, the only type that would stand out in this game is the leader type. Yes, PR's can sometimes have the same reactions when they have information that everyone else does not, but the only way to know who is who on day one, unfortunately, is through a lynch. These two characteristic scum have shown up in just about every game I've played, and so that is what I am voting off of.

And nacho, I'm sorry for the spot you've gotten yourself into in this one....

As he mentioned ... he's discussed them plenty in previous posts so I'm not sure what you were expecting - are we all meant to spend every post just discussing Fitz and Rat ? Seems like distancing to you ? this seems like tunneling to me.

I actually agree with his (PT) suspicions on Pine although not really seen anything from Andrew to highlight him as scum. Neutral read on PT so far for me.

Both Cesily and Pine are looking pretty good alternatives to a Fitz lynch at the moment. They are my top 3 suspects at the moment.

[mikemike778]

well i remember when you played scum in my game everyone thought you were protown and glorious because you give analysis but you don't step on toes.
and here everyone hates you, you're not jumping on the easier wagons that they're begging you to, and you're not jumping on the easy target but obvtown, you're pissing people off, and you're bitchin about me lurking.

That's a town having fits if i ever heard one.

which game ? link ?

[mikemike778]

well i remember when you played scum in my game everyone thought you were protown and glorious because you give analysis but you don't step on toes.
and here everyone hates you, you're not jumping on the easier wagons that they're begging you to, and you're not jumping on the easy target but obvtown, you're pissing people off, and you're bitchin about me lurking.

That's a town having fits if i ever heard one.

which game ? link ?

Still waiting ...

Not buying the Voided wagon yet. Maybe WIFOM but I don't see a scum with a guilty claiming Neighbour/izer. If he was scum, he would probs assume the claim was legit - if he was going to fake claim why fake claim a relatively minor role as opposed to a Doc or Normal Cop to try and draw them out. After all, without Rat's revelation Voided would have been lynched fairly quickly.

Keeping my vote on Fitz as not much has changed in my mind with Ces and Pine still alternatives.

If there's renewed interest in a voided wagon I'm totally up for that. I particularly like his recent appeal to newbieness- that's a last resort if I've ever heard one. The neighbor-neighborizor bit, as I've said and said, would be enough to lynch him.
Besides, the deadline's been extended.

Unvote
Vote: voided

If the neighbor-neighborizor thing was enough to lynch him on its own as you've said and said then why vote for Andrew here ? Seems a very woolly vote really - very difficult to get anything of a read on him, can't see many getting much more than a neutral.

Pine:
1. Is Xalxe's replacement.
2. He claims there is "no protown reason" for pappum's gambit. Really, Pine? No pro-town reason? Maybe you disagree with it, but there still is a reason, that pappums and others (including myself) have argued: that it started discussion and helped give this game a focus.
3. His reaction to andrew in post 383 is way off. It's almost as if he intentionally overreacted in order to confirm his theory in post 364.
4. Pine is uncomfortably obsessed with LAL, as Jahudo pointed out.

andrew94:
1. In 303, he declares that "we have enough reactions to pappum's gambit". Except for his very recent posts on Pine, however, he focusses solely on pappums. Why would somebody want to shut down discussion on his only lynch target, unless that lynch wasn't convincing in the first place? I realize he defined progress as lynching pappums, but it's still strange to call for an end to discussion about pappums.
2. He slyly suggests that voided is scum in post 165, but does a complete 180 when pappums revealed his gambit. It makes it seem like he knew the alignments of both players beforehand.
3. He refuses to make sense of his posts when asked.

I like lynches on these two. I don't know which is more likely to get a wagon, so I'm going to go out on a limb and say andrew, just because Pine is still a fresh face. If there's interest in Pine I'll switch immediately.

Vote: andrew

Come deadline time, if we continue to limit our choices to fitz and pappums, I'll vote pappums, as I've already said. But I hope that can be avoided.

i have never said that i, in any way, was cleared from being scum. (i even said that previously in a post when people were saying that i was trying to clear myself). what i was doing in that post was trying to make people question whether scum was more likely to take the course of actions that i did or that fitz did

The two aren't exactly the same thing, but they're close. How many times couldn't you say, "which is more likely, a gambit or ___"?

[mikemike778]

1. Sufficient to lynch =/= necessary to lynch, sufficient to lynch =/= only player worth lynching (I think andrew and pine have both done enough for us to lynch them.
2. Voting and wagoning has importance outside of lynching.
3. I have no clue what you're getting at with "a neutral" or "wolly at best." Clarify your pronouns.

Neutral - Andrew said little of any significance, it was all nothing-y nonsense or thats what I made of it anyway. By neutral I meant I couldn't see how anyone could get a positive read (scum or town) on him. Not enough to lynch anyway if you had a confident a read on someone else

Woolly - not much in it, fairly fluffy - reasons given hardly convincing.

If you thought the neighbour thing was a satisfactory reason to lynch Voided (I don't but thats a different matter) then I don't see why your reasons given for your Andrew vote would make him the better vote.

Can you clarify your point re 2 - that you were not voting to lynch Andrew but to build up a wagon ?

[mikemike778]

Just got home and went to do the promised Voided=Town case, but...damn, VM, you're making it

really

hard. I don't have very many scumtells that I'm confident of, but your last few posts have discovered one of those buttons and taken a hammer to it repeatedly.

Specifically, I find it massively anti-Town to vote for yourself, threaten to vote for yourself, say you're willing to hammer yourself, or anything like that. And all that goes double if you're at L-1 or L-2 at the time. If you're vanilla Town, then you're the only person that, to you, is Confirmed Town. That kind of action, therefore, is strictly anti-Town. It's even worse from a claimed Power Role.

In my eyes, the ONLY valid reason someone of your claimed role would do that is to gain Town points with uninformed people, and to try to get some of the people voting for you to back off. It's the equivalent of taking yourself hostage in order to run from the cops. Therefore, the only valid motive to do it is if you're scum trying to survive and beat the rap for another day.

I'm really, really torn now. You've set off plenty of minor Town reads with me, but have managed to completely reverse that. Yeah, I think I've convinced myself over the course of this posting. If you flip scum, I'll feel vindicated in my scum tell. If you flip Town, then don't EVER do that again. It is NEVER productive as Town.

UNVOTE: Nachomamma8
VOTE: Voidedmafia

Hammer.

Well then Mister Pine.

How do you feel about your previous comments that a gambit of the type Rat pulled is never beneficial to town ? You hammered him so presumably you must have thought he was scum. Now the main case against Voided was as a result of the gambit by Rat so if that gambit had revealed the scum then surely the gambit would have been beneficial. Did you change your mind at the last minute about the value of the gambit or merely forget the case against Voided originated from the gambit?

Hammering a player because he was going to self-hammer is nonsense. A player you had a neutral read on maybe ... but a player you were convinced was town and and was preparing a defence for ... Nope don't buy that. At all. If you had a case for Voided being town you should have posted it to at least get people's thoughts on it. Not just hammer away. Why leave the Voided defence so late anyway? To cause late confusion and maybe a no lynch ?

Vote Pine

[mikemike778]

Everyone else not voting Fitz/Nacho: Guys, there's three days left, and we'll no lynch if Fitz or Nacho aren't lynched. Unless you can whip up some amazing case to persuade the majority to someone else, WE NEED TO LYNCH ONE OF THEM TODAY IF AT ALL POSSIBLE!

I agree with this, much as I don't like it.
I don't think havingfitz is scum.

Unvote
Vote Nacho

Can you explain this please ?

you thought Pine and Andrew were scummy and that there was sufficient evidence for a Voided lynch. So what are we now .. down to maybe your 4th or lower choice. I don't think I'd want to put my 4th choice at L1 with three days left till the deadline.

Especially given your previous post about being able to vote and scumhunt for whoever you want. This looks too eager to please to me.

[mikemike778]

You would rather not lynch than lynch your number four suspect? These objections can't be serious.

Yes they are serious.

When did I mention not lynching ? There were 3 days left - like I said I would not want to put somoene I did not think was scum 9 (you've admitted he wasn't even your 4th pick) at L1 as the Voided lynch proved there was plenty of time to get someone you

did

think was scum a wagon built up. Sure come the deadline or very close to the deadline then I'd switch to avoid a no lynch but it was way too early for this.

Don't see how we can't lynch Pine today but there's a clutch of candidates for a D3 lynch in my book - yourself, Fitz and Ces.

[mikemike778]

Hey Nacho ... now you are here are you going to provide evidence of your meta on Fitz yet (ie game number, link ) ... I've asked you twice so far and you've ignored it twice ... I hope you've not been making it up

[mikemike778]

Ok, I've been thinking about doing this for a while and I think it's a good decision because right now the alternative seems to be just lynching Pine then starting on tomorrow after someone else is nightkilled. I think that giving town a real incentive to use the full length of the day to discuss should give us more of a chance to draw out scum responses and that this will do that.

I am a One-shot vigilante. I am willing to shoot whoever the town thinks is the most scummy besides Pine by a democratic choice in night 2.
If you want me to count you as voting for someone to be shot tonight, put NightVote:playername in the last line of any post in normal text (unvotes likewise).
The decision will be made if any player has a)more than 50% of the votes, or b) significantly more votes than their nearest contender.

Given a Pine lynch seems pretty much a sure thing following his voided hammer and subsequent abandonment of the thread, this should give us a reason to extend the day as long as possible.

Well the problem with that is that scum may be able to intefere with your kill, not a good idea to discuss who you are planning to target (if you aren't telling fibs that is). Us naming names isn't the way to go ... use the info available to make your own mind up. This doesn't clear TO completely as scum could themselves have an extra kill one night but TO seems pretty risk averse to me - the way the game's gone so far, I don't see her fake claiming this.

Pine is obviously going to be the lynch for today ... was probably still trying to fabricate his story when he was rushed into revealing it before he was ready (he hadn't got to the bit about who he was going to track yet it seems).

Nontheless plenty of time no rush, we can wait a bit for his second and third posts before rushing anything.

[mikemike778]

Vote: Chkflip

Now with the knowledge that Pine is scum, this post looks really bad:

UNVOTE: P.T.
VOTE: Satael

Way too interested in rushing the current wagon, amongst other scummy things they've done.

That was the extent of the case that chk was presenting against Sateal. It was a terribly weak vote, and it reads of chk trying to attack the attacker of a scumbud (chainsaw defense).

@Chk: What made Satael's pushing of the pine wagon scummy at that time?

Doesn't seem a great scum tactic to me ... Pine was looking very likely to be lynched, not sure that scum would want to put their head on the line by trying to slow down the wagon. Yeah agreed 100% on the weak vote though.

[mikemike778]

Vote: Cecily

She waffled on the Pine wagon yesterday A LOT, which suggests that she was unsure of which position to take on her scumbuddy's wagon. We go from Pine is an inevitable lynch and will die anyways here, to attacking havingfitz for rushing the wagon here. I find this a bit more damning that chkflip's play because he at least was consistent.

PT Barnum, havingfitz, and mike are pretty much confirmed town at this point.

I agree, except I would at Satael to the list of town. He basically orchestrated the Pine lynch. That leaves:

Nacho
Chk
Cecily
Myself

I know I'm town, and I've got a town read on Nacho (pine's constant attacks on Pappums vouch for him). So that leaves Chk and Cecily as the remaining scum simply by the process of elimination, without even getting into the cases on those two.

Hang on a minute ... up to recently we were discussing how big the scum team was - now you seem to have decided that its a three man team to the extent you are doing your maths on workin out whether we are in Mylo. Do you know something we don't?

Anything Pine said on the scum team size is irrelevent.

Way too blinkered to be considering anyone as 'confirmed town' as well (applies to Nacho as well) . I actually have suspicions on PT still and am not prepared to 100% discount my Day 1 thoughts on Fitz when I was 100% sure he was scum.

[mikemike778]

The other thing to consider if looking at voting analysis is the initial Day 1 wagon on Voided - this was the voting patterns before the revelation.

Voidedmafia (5) - Jinxx (TO), havingfitz, P.T. Barnum, Xalxe (Pine), Cecily

Interesting as scum would know that Voided would flip town but would also know that the claim would probably be rescinded. Of these Fitz's position on the wagon is the most suspicious as he was pushing for a quick lynch which given scum would know there was potentially only a small window for a mislynch looks ropey.

PT - hopped on the wagon then hopped off later then hopped back on for the end giving justification based on Voided's Neighbourizer claim which again questions why he went off in Andrew's direction with what seems a marginal case to me.

[mikemike778]

mike...your suspicions of me are annoying. You suspect me for being on the wagon of someone who had been identified as scum? I suppose getting off his wagon as soon as the "reaction fish/gamit/LIE" was revealed is scummy too?

If you think you have a good case on me...make it and vote me instead of tap dancing around me the entire game.

Why annoying ? .... anyone would think you seemed a little nervous about the attention. And tap dancing eh, here was me thinking that I was looking to lynch you Day 1 - is that tap dancing? I suspect you for pretty much the same reasons as I did Day 1 but I can regurgitate them again if you'd like.

Co-incidentally, can't put out a longer post now because I'm actually going salsa dancing which is nothing like tap dancing.

Bub to answer your question ... I'm not liking either Fitz or PT at the moment but need to ISO a few players, you (Bub) being one of them as I haven't got any sort of read whatsoever on you so far.

[mikemike778]

All he says is that Xalxe "earns a black strike in my green book," and that fitz's policy vote is scummy, both without moving his vote from his random one on Jahudo. And in his next post, he says he's "not against policy votes in general," which is leaving himself some nice room to escape. This is before the fitz wagon, mind you, so scummike would have no reason to commit yet. Also, the way he refers to Xalxe is textbook bussing.

If you'd kept the context - I am not against policy lynches in general just not that early on in the game when the player has barely had a chance to post. Fitz asked us what we thought of policy lynches. What did you want me to do ? Lie or just ignore the question ? The Xalxe comment ... textbook bussing ? Are you being serious ?

In this post mike has nothing to add but feels the need to post anyway, doesn't actually comment on when voided should be lynched, unvotes his random vote (it is his eighth post and he still hasn't made a serious vote) and claims that fitz doesn't want to discuss the game. The last point in particular is nonsense: if fitz didn't want to discuss the game, one would thinks he would avoid the most important topic in the game thus far.
It isn't until his 14th post that he votes someone, this time fitz, which he has been building up to ever so slowly.

Did you want me to name a date when Voided should be lynched ? Apologies - next time I disagree with a quick lynch I'll sit down and have a think about exactly how many days we should wait for lynching them. I disagree with your last point, Fitz was discussing policy lynches and trying to get the day ended quickly. Essentially he was using game theory rather than discussing the game specifically.

Flat-out OMGUS. That's quite a serious accusation considering that mike never brought Jerbs up again.

Jerbs wasn't even attacking me. I've only played 4 games here so maybe I misunderstand what OMGUS means or maybe you misunderstand. Or maybe you think I should only comment on people who don't post about me or maybe you are talking nonsense. I didn't bring up Jerbs again because he replaced out and there were other players higher up my suspect list than Bub (who like I've said I have no read on at all) This is all a bit desperate sounding mister PT.

[mikemike778]

Reserved for Vote Count

---

@mike...annoying because you are. I think the name 'Fitz" has been typed more in this game by you than anyone else.

Sorry about that but through a lot of the game I've thought you are likely scum so its pretty inevitable I'm going to type Fitz quite a bit just the way it goes. Apologies for any inconvenience caused. Try not to let it affect your PR hunting too much ...

[mikemike778]

Bub ... I'm getting more and more wary of you. Been reading through the last few days and you seem to be posting just fluff, nothing questions, questionable votes and agreeing with people.

You voted PT ... seemingly purely because he attacked someone who attacked him (ie me). That's about as woolly a reason (see previous description of what woolly means people) as I've seen for voting for anyone. Which combined with 731 looks bad indeed.

Post 731 - you are more than happy to agree with Nacho's assessment that me, PT (who you later vote for little reason) and Fitz (why does everyone think he is town anyway ?) are confirmed town. And then happily add another couple to the confirmed list ... no one is confirmed at this point don't make out they are.

Post 727 - Little thing but you seem very sure how big the scum team is and its only the scum team who know that (and Rhino natch).

Post 725 you voted Chkflip for aggain what seems like a very simplistic reason (one post on Satael). You seem to be knee-jerk reacting to anyone that could be seen as even slightly scummy. Scum don't try and scum hunt they try and use what others post to their advantage.

Post 606 - you vote Voided because 'I agree with the case on him'. This is kind of like the demo of all of your scumsigns here - voting town (you vote Neil day 2), agreeing with people blindly, voting for no satisfactory reason (I mean come on - I agree with the case on him).

You have floated out a range of very basic questions of the nature of -who do you think is scum' (you have asked variants of this question a lot). This to me points at someone who is trying hard to look pro-town. Doesn't look like natural scum hunting at all to me.

And yes as PT kindly pointed out, Jerbs wasn't exactly un town like either. And with that ...

Vote Bub

Before you ask ... I've not forgotton about you Fitz so I guess its a bit more tap dancing on that front. But we should lynch Bub today.

[mikemike778]

I checked in, had nothing to add to the cases I've made because no one else had really posted anything worth noting. I've got a lot of work today, I'll try and get something in tomorrow.

You've not posted anything since the 19th - are you saying no-one has posted anything notable since then ?

[mikemike778]

got home later than expected: promised post tomorrow

This is the eagerly awaited post 2 of 2 then is it ... just like Pine's post 2 and 3 of the three part series.

[mikemike778]

The reason I'm voting for PT is that he has consistently only posted content targetted at people who have attacked him. Consistently. The first time he ever voiced any suspision of you was directly after you attacked him. For me, that capped of a trend and it reached a voting point.

Why did you consider PT confirmed town (other than because Nacho said so) before he attacked me ?

When did you notice this trend of PT attacking people who targetted him ?

Why did you vote Voided Day 1 (other than because others voted him) ?

[mikemike778]

The reason I'm voting for PT is that he has consistently only posted content targetted at people who have attacked him. Consistently. The first time he ever voiced any suspision of you was directly after you attacked him. For me, that capped of a trend and it reached a voting point.

Why did you consider PT confirmed town (other than because Nacho said so) before he attacked me ?

When did you notice this trend of PT attacking people who targetted him ?

Why did you vote Voided Day 1 (other than because others voted him) ?

Because he was the first vote on the Pine wagon. I admit, I was far too quick to confirm people. I noticed the trend when I saw PT basically OMGUSing you, and then I ISO'd him, at which point I discovered the trend.

I voted for Voided Day 1 because if I didn't want a no-lynch on D-1. The person who I thought was scummiest on that day was neil (though I turned out to be wrong on that read) there wasn't enough support for a neil lynch, and it was really close to deadline so I voted for Voided to prevent a D-1 no-lynch. He wasn't my scummiest pick, but at that time I felt like he was a better lynch than most.

Is this a common trait for you then ... do you generally speaking give 3 quarters of the players a 'confirmed town' status ? Why do you regard Fitz as confirmed town (again other than because Nacho said so) ?

Have you played as scum and have you ever bussed anyone if you have (played as scum) ? Sorry but regarding someone as confirmed town purely because they put a vote on Pine just seems crazy to me.

Oh and welcome Faraday ...

[mikemike778]

unvote

Faraday has really picked up where PT failed. He's posted a lot of pro-town content.

Also, Cecily and Chk are of different alignments. At the start of the day when they were the top two suspects, Cec instantly went after Chk, the other top wagon. Also, with his first content post of the day (using a very loose definition of the word "content") Chk came out and voted for Cecily.

Vote: Chkflip

^L-1^

So why are you voting Chk then ? Because he is a different alignment to Cec, thats not a reason given that we don't know Cec's alignment. Post 731 you suggest one of these 2 is scum but you offer no opinions on which of the 2 it is. Or is it going to be like the Voided vote Day 1 (I agree with the case on him)?

My scumpicks at the moment are still Bub and Fitz although I'll admit I've not seen any particular link between them. Fitz did suggest following my case on Bub but that's no reason to think they aren't scum aligned.

Looks like its going to come down to Cec or Chk so will need to re-read more on these two before considering moving my vote from Bub. Its staying there for now.

[mikemike778]

Chkflp - you are at L1, if you are town and you have a case on Cecily then make it now or I'm going to hammer you tomorrow (as in like real tomorrow not D4). Whats it matter what Satael thinks to your case ?

FOS - Chkflip

If your scum then feel free to hold out

[mikemike778]

I haven't exactly been the greatest replacement and I think I have to use two hands to count the amount of times I've said I'd get to this Cecily business. That in itself makes me want to self-hammer due to my inability to truly get my head into this game.


Thing is, I don't think Satael is correct when he says Cec has said things scum would try not to say. Your thoughts of what a scummy person would or wouldn't say isn't indicative to their alignment. That's your opinion and I believe that you're applying it incorrectly. I simply don't see town-motivation in the posts, I see sheeping, and by far I see a lot of fluffery. I could link to all three of these things if you'd like, amongst the other things others have brought to the Cec-case. There are several other things, but I'm obviously not going to be the one to convince you all of this.

Was this the big case that you were holdng back until Satael posted ??? or am I missing something ? You are making this up as you are going along aren't you ?

[mikemike778]

Actually, the case is at my house and I've been posting from school. All points I've made can be backed by an overview of her ISO; however, I completely understand where you're coming from considering the circumstances.

OK, I can't guarantee I'll be on again before the deadline so ... sorry ChkFlip but I don't think you have a case and you are making this up as you go along. The way you've played this just doesn't make sense if you are town.

Unvote

Vote ChkFlip

[mikemike778]

This is my first non newbie game on this site - so its the first time I've been involved with a one-shot information role and it may indeed be the standard way this role is played but from my perspective, I'm finding it very very difficult to difficult that anyone with this role would wait until Night 3 to use it. Just doesn't make sense to me in any way.

Firstly the obvious, by Day 4 (which is the first chance you would get to communicate your findings), over the half the players in the game are dead. Waiting until then means the odds are you will be dead before you can make use of it. Therefore waiting this long is illogical.

Secondly, once in Lylo or Mylo, guilty claims on a cop (which is pretty much what you would claim I'd guess if you got a positive return) are way less likely to be believed and may even get you lynched due to the likelihood of it being a scum claim. If you (or PT) used it night 1, the odds are it would be believed. Again illogical to wait this long.

Nope don't believe you I'm afraid.

I'm all for a mass claim so might as well hold off from voting for now.

[mikemike778]

Okay, I find a hard time believing Bud to be scu, Jerbs post where he replaces out is strongly town. it reminds me of the way percy replaced out in Storm recently, for an example. The whole detrimental to the town thing looks really sincere, I think that's almost impossible to fake.

Ah you seriously telling me that a scum player replacing out couldn't possibly replicate Jerbs' post ??? It was what a couple of lines long and a scum couldn't have posted that ???

[mikemike778]

I didn't really have a choice

Appreciate you can't answer for PT but that doesn't mean stuff he did (or didn't do) can be discounted.

But it's far more useful the later you keep it, I can definitely see why he wanted to save it even if I think it's not good play.

Not if no-one believes you in Lylo/Mylo when when you reveal all.

You know you're waffling, who's scum?

I've already said I don't believe someone would wait till Night 3 and therefore don't believe your claim. If I think you are lying then I obviously think you are scum. As for your partner well Fitz seems an obvious pick. Having said that, I don't agree in any way on your reasoning behind Bub being town so if you are scum then the Fitz thing could well be a smokescreen. One of the two anyway.

Have you got a link to the thread where it was discussed (and yeah I'm being lazy, if not I'll go and look for it).

Anyway onto the massclaim ... Ces you are up.

[mikemike778]

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=17361 it was tracker, but same thing 1-shot role and all that.

But yes, you didn't outright called me scum you just said you found it difficult to believe, which basically means you can always change your mind at any point in the future. I'm curious, why do I clear fitz as scum here? What's the benefit? If I'd want to back off him I could have said I'd re-read over night and his reactions seemed townish, or things like that, what's the scum motivation I have for fakeclaiming here? This is a general question to pretty much anyone, I've narrowed down the lynch pool SIGNIFICANTLY with my play and why does this help me?

That towntell is very strong, quite frankly don't care if you disagree, but my town reads are always fairly awesome when strong. Like if Setael has somehow bussed Pine I'll literally go become her own personal 'voice slave' i'm that confident in mah reads.

This bit kinda gave it away re my opinion. If you don't believe someone, you tend to think they are scum.

Nope don't believe you I'm afraid.

And calling your own claim a strong 'town tell' pretty much erradicates any 'town tell-ness' that may have been there. Interesting as well that you've actually referenced that thread so quickly. Does kinda give the impression you've just read it during night and thought 'why don't I claim a one-shot' power and if they ask why I didn't use it earlier then I'll just link to it.

[mikemike778]

I MEAN I EVEN SAID I WOULD USE IT EARLIER. YOUR ARGUMENT IS BAD AND YOU SHOULD FEEL BAD.

You certainly did. You also said in that thread you kindly linked to that you would usually save it.

Why aren't you voting me if you don't believe me? Are you afraid to wagon me with your buddy is that it? Wheeeeeee.

Would be a shame to lynch you now as we might miss out on the exciting mass-claim.

[mikemike778]

Town 1-shot Neighborizer

Targetted Jahudu to neighbour Night 1 but it didn't work for obvious reasons so got another go
Targetted Bub to neighbour Night 2 successfull

Picked Bub to try and get a better read on him as when I made my pick I was pretty neutral on him. To be brutally honest, he did seem to be a reasonably genuine sounding Townie during last night which has forced a bit of a re-think as during Day 3, I got more and more convinced he was scum. If faraday is scum I still have it 50/50 between Bub and Fitz as to who his partner is.

And with that ... Bub's turn to claim.

[mikemike778]

1-shot. ONE SHOT. ONE SHOT. ONE SHOT. BUT. BUT. HE GOT TO USE IT TWICE. WOW.

Do you really think I'd be stupid enough to claim that if it wasn't true ... it would be far easier for me to claim either I lost it night 1 or that I just neighboured Bub Day 2 and not mentioned my Day 1 action.

Rhino ... as no-one has asked the appropriate question, can you confirm that if a 1-shot neighbourizer targets someone who dies Night 1 then they will be able able to use it Night 2.

Thanks

You are about to look a little bit silly Mister Faraday.

[mikemike778]

Is this a claim Bub can confirm? Does a neighborizor engage someone else in conversation? mikemike? Bub?

Which btw...I see Bub was logged in this morning. I assume he still has 48 hours left coming out of the start of the day before he gets a prod but it would be good to hear from him.

Yes - we did discuss whether or not he should come out and claim I neighboured him at the start of the day but I didn't see the point.

[mikemike778]

mikemike...can you explain what your role does? How it works?

As faraday says. Bit like a mason except I get to pick my partner.

[mikemike778]

anyway, explain why you didn't react to voidemafia's claim? (on the offchance rhinox is the oddest mod in history, seriously what?)

Not sure what you wanted me to say.

I posted that his claim was believable and didn't support the lynch. I also was pretty vocal against Fitz immediately for trying to quick lynch Voided before Rat came back out and confirmed it was a gambit, I also jumped on PT for using the neighbourizer claim as the basis for his lynch. I had no evidence that Voided was town merely that I had the same role as he was claiming which wasn't a basis for claiming myself.

[mikemike778]

._. and you're not confirmed. that's sort of important (neither is your partner)

This is true .. hence why Bub has remained high on my suspect list

[mikemike778]

anyway, explain why you didn't react to voidemafia's claim? (on the offchance rhinox is the oddest mod in history, seriously what?)

Not sure what you wanted me to say.

I posted that his claim was believable and didn't support the lynch. I also was pretty vocal against Fitz immediately for trying to quick lynch Voided before Rat came back out and confirmed it was a gambit, I also jumped on PT for using the neighbourizer claim as the basis for his lynch. I had no evidence that Voided was town merely that I had the same role as he was claiming which wasn't a basis for claiming myself.

It didn't make you think he was more suspicious? Like the fact he claimed your role? 99/100 that makes him scum trying to weasel out with a fakeclaim, this didn't cross your mind.

unvote

till we finish since I got excited. this fucking game.

No.

If it had been a cop or doc then yes I would come to that conclusion.

I had never come across the role before and the odds on scum fake-claiming it seemed remote to me and too much of a co-incidence. I actually saw it as more likely that he was being genuine.

[mikemike778]

rhinox if a 1-shot gunsmith investigated a player who died would they be able to re-use their abillity the next night

And a reminder that given I've been accused of lying about the 1-shot use of my power that answering this in relation to a Neighbourizer may be more relevant.

[mikemike778]

OK, agreed with Satael that given the massclaim Faraday is almost certainly telling the truth. Neighbourizer is pretty much a glorified vanilla role really so if Faraday is being economical with the truth then it would leave us with only a one-shot vig which is probably unlikely. Therefore I'm reluctantly wiping faraday off my scum list and on the same basis Fitz (even if he was some sort of traitor then without a gun he's harmless).

So that leaves

Bub
Cesily
Satael

In that order. When ISO ing Bub during Day 3 I did become pretty convinced he was scum so on that basis he is back to my number 1 choice to lynch with Ces as his buddy or possibly Fitz if faraday is right with his traitor thoughts.

[mikemike778]

Re - my supposed lie.

When I read Pine's claim I emailed Rhino specifically to ask whether my failed neighbourizer attempt would be shown up by a tracker. Rhino categorically confirmed a

tracker would get nothing back

. Hence why I didn't claim there and then, its also another reason for my delayed reponse to the claim - I was waiting for Rhino to get back.

Rhino, I appreciate you can't confirm I emailed you this but can you confirm that in the scenario described a tracker would get no result ?

I'm going to be seriously pissed off with you as a mod if I get lynched because you aren't answering questions like this re your mechanics especially given you answered them in a personal email. Either its confidential how the mechanics work or its not.

[mikemike778]

Eh, mikemike what changed your opinion on me? I thought I was scum a page ago, but as soon as Setael says I'm town I'm town?

The mass claim coming out with no other power roles

[mikemike778]

OK, agreed with Satael that given the massclaim Faraday is almost certainly telling the truth. Neighbourizer is pretty much a glorified vanilla role really so if Faraday is being economical with the truth then it would leave us with only a one-shot vig which is probably unlikely. Therefore I'm reluctantly wiping faraday off my scum list and on the same basis Fitz (even if he was some sort of traitor then without a gun he's harmless).

So that leaves

Bub
Cesily
Satael

In that order. When ISO ing Bub during Day 3 I did become pretty convinced he was scum so on that basis he is back to my number 1 choice to lynch with Ces as his buddy or possibly Fitz if faraday is right with his traitor thoughts.

This post gave me the creeps.

@Mike - I can't look back at what you posted D3 right now, but if you thought he was scum why is this the first you've mentioned it today? What made him get bumped from your top scum slot, and what made you want to put him back there?

Q1 - In the QT overnight he was giving me town vibes hence why he got bumped off number 1 spot behind Faraday and Fitz

Q2 - He got put back there when I had second thoughts on Faraday and therefore Fitz following the mass claim

[mikemike778]

And that was it for the day. If MikeMike was telling the truth, why didn't he claim right then and there? It isn't like neighborizer is a powerfull role that would be a huge loss to the town.

As I've said ... Neighbourizer is essentially a vanilla claim, sure its no great loss but it makes it easier for the scum to aim at the real power roles. I was sure as heck going to wait until I had something definite on Pine before claiming.

Given the neighbourizer role proves nothing, it did make me wonder why you were suggesting we reveal it in the QT ... I guess if you were a traitor then you would probably think that the main scum team would find the information useful in chosing their NK especially seeing as we were discussing the pros and cons of a no lynch. Obviously a no lynch would make this info more useful.

VOTE: Bub

[mikemike778]

Following the Pine lynch and your neighborizing of Bub...did your lack of reaction towards Pine's fakeclaim findings on you come up in the QT?

Nope.

[mikemike778]

Well that's a silly rhetorical question, isn't it? I think bub is town though, and I still think the neighbouriser thing is damning. I *suppose* there could be a 1-shot mafia roleblocker or something that fucked mike up, that might actually explaining him retaining his 1-shot abillity.

Eh, why is Bub scummier than Mikemike iyo? Or even cecily I guess, who's sort of dropped off everyone's suspicions (and still voting me, no?)

How is it damning? assuming you think I am lying what is your version of events, if I was scum - the chain of events just don't make sense at all. OK lets walk this back to the beginning.

Night 1 - your comment above suggests you think my failed attempt was a lie ? Assuming you accept that I am a neighbourizer what is your version of events then ? Am I a multiple shot neighbourizer or did I just not take my shot ? If I was a scum, why would I not take my shot ?

Day 2 - OK so if I am scum apparently and Pine has been outed by my the tracker. Given Pine was clearly going down why wouldn't I just claim and get town points for taking out a scum, there was no real benefit to try and protect him. And if I was going to protect him why did I vote him ?? This just doesn't make any sense from a scum perspective at all.

Answer is of course - Rhino confirmed my failure wouldn't show up by a tracker so I knew no more than anyone else. Pine seemed scum and as a town player I want to lynch scum so I voted him.

Night 2 - OK so again I'm scum and after outing but then trying to cover up for Pine what next ? Surely the answer would be not to use the neighbourizer power to avoid possible complications with Pine's claim. Why would I want to use the power here doesn't make sense from a scum perspective.

Answer of course being that as a town player, I saw the power as a way of getting some kind of read on someone who at that point I had very little on. And of course given Pine's claim and the off chance someone else claimed tracker (Rhino confirmed that a successfull neighbourizer would be picked up by a tracker) then I'd be in a better position to judge the claiim.

[mikemike778]

But then why didn't you counter-claim when Voided claimed? This is what you had to say on the subject:

Not buying the Voided wagon yet. Maybe WIFOM but I don't see a scum with a guilty claiming Neighbour/izer. If he was scum, he would probs assume the claim was legit - if he was going to fake claim why fake claim a relatively minor role as opposed to a Doc or Normal Cop to try and draw them out. After all, without Rat's revelation Voided would have been lynched fairly quickly.

Why didn't you? The answer is simple: because you knew that Voided was town. You knew that if you counter-claimed, and voided was lynched, then the suspision would fall onto you. A townie would instantly jump onto somebody who claimed their exact same role, but you backed off and distanced yourself from that very wagon.

CONFIRM VOTE: MIKEMIKE

Lol ...

You are getting desperate now aren't you ? Why would I counter-claim it wouldn't confirm anything one way or another all it would do would be to provide free information to the bad guys (if they knew I was neighbourizer then they knew I wasn't anything more important).

If I counter-claimed it would be because I thought scum had lied about the role - I didn't think that, given the co-incidence, I was pretty confident Voided hadn't just made the role up, believed his claim and therefore thought he was probably town. I wanted to defend his claim (when people were trying to lynch him just for mixing up neighbour/izer) and deter a wagon on him without actually claiming myself and giving the info away.

Again to claim that my response is scum motivated is just illogical.

[mikemike778]

As far as him not getting a tracker result when you targetted him, I doubt that's true. It is my understanding that if an information role is tracked and targets the player who dies that night, then the tracker would recieve the result.

Then you are wrong.

[mikemike778]

Mike which of bub and cecily do you think is scum? one both? (I read your post, just...not sure I want to respond to it now)

I actually have a hunch that Bub may be traitor in which case him and Ces are the scum team as Fitz would be pretty much cleared and I don't think Sat is in the main scum team.

If Bub is scum but not traitor and you are correct in your thinking that there is a traitor then it could be anyone as Fitz wont be cleared of this role and even Sat could be (if he was traitor and didnt know the scum team his case on Pine wouldn't be quite so much a confirmed town tell). But then it wouldn't matter as we would have won anyway - assuming your set-up analysis is correct.

So its lynch Bub and then if there is a day 5, lynch Ces and game won

[mikemike778]

Mike who's scum and why aren't you voting them?

I am voting Bub or thought I was ... pops off to check.

[mikemike778]

Hmm. No hammer. You're clear. So you should hammer Cecily since that means she's scum FYPOV.

Off to work .. I'm not hammering anyone yet. I really think we should be lynching Bub but will maybe reconsider as Ces would be my second pick.

[mikemike778]

So mikemike has a chance to hammer Cecily but is waiting for some reason. What was the reason again?

The reason is simple ... Bub should be lynched. Cec is probs my second choice but at Mylo I'm not just going to hammer my second choice willy nilly when it could cost us the game. There's another week till the deadline after all.

[mikemike778]

If Bub was town and Cecily is scum as many suspect...I think she had a short window to hammer Bub for the win (assuming 2 scum left).

Any idea how long the window was ? Cec didn't post so she must have come onto the site to read, she's not playing any other games so she must have been reading this. And if she was scum, the first thing you want to look at in Mylo or Lylo is whether there is any chance to hammer for the win knowing that as soon as you are spotted online an unvote is possible.

If there was any sort of window at all then a Bub Town, Cec scum combination looks highly unlikely.

[mikemike778]

But then why didn't you counter-claim when Voided claimed? This is what you had to say on the subject:

Not buying the Voided wagon yet. Maybe WIFOM but I don't see a scum with a guilty claiming Neighbour/izer. If he was scum, he would probs assume the claim was legit - if he was going to fake claim why fake claim a relatively minor role as opposed to a Doc or Normal Cop to try and draw them out. After all, without Rat's revelation Voided would have been lynched fairly quickly.

Why didn't you? The answer is simple: because you knew that Voided was town. You knew that if you counter-claimed, and voided was lynched, then the suspision would fall onto you. A townie would instantly jump onto somebody who claimed their exact same role, but you backed off and distanced yourself from that very wagon.

CONFIRM VOTE: MIKEMIKE

Lol ...

You are getting desperate now aren't you ? Why would I counter-claim it wouldn't confirm anything one way or another all it would do would be to provide free information to the bad guys (if they knew I was neighbourizer then they knew I wasn't anything more important).

If I counter-claimed it would be because I thought scum had lied about the role - I didn't think that, given the co-incidence, I was pretty confident Voided hadn't just made the role up, believed his claim and therefore thought he was probably town. I wanted to defend his claim (when people were trying to lynch him just for mixing up neighbour/izer) and deter a wagon on him without actually claiming myself and giving the info away.

Again to claim that my response is scum motivated is just illogical.

If you were town, then that would not have been your thought process. Catching scum would be well worth giving up such trivial information as the fact that you are a neighborizer. The counter-claim would have made it evident that Voided was lying and he would have been lynched for sure. However, you knew that Voided would flip town and so you didn't want to counter-claim because then you would come under fire for it the next day.

The scumteam is Cec/MikeMike, but Mike is confirmed scum at this point.

How would a counter-claim have made it evident that Voided was lying then ? Given its essentially a vanilla role, the odds on 2 town Neighbourizers are about the same as the odds on 1 on each side I'd have thought. All my role proved was that its unlikely Voided entirely fake claimed - sure it was possible he could be mafia neighbourizer but it was unlikely he'd just made up the role - too much of a co-incidence. In fact it did cross my mind, we could even end up with half the players as neighbourizers or something like that.

You have known I was a neighbourizer since the beginning of Day 3, you have known Voided claimed Neighbourizer since Day 1 and you have known Pine claimed tracker since day 2. Its pretty certain that since being neighboured, you would have ISOd me to prepare for night but never once mentioned me as suspicious in fact wasn't I on your list of cleared town players despite the above which you apparently have now decided for some reason makes me scum. Then again you do like changing your reasons on who is scum for pretty much nothing don't you? Wasn't it PT you classed as confirmed town but then immediately switched to your number 1 target on the grounds he attacked me. Guess you didn't think I was scummy then did you despite knowing the above?

You've managed to skirt around the entire game being as inconspicious as possible, sheeping where possible and generally doing your best to seem as uncontraversial as possible To be honest, you'd have been better off sticking to that game plan, if this is the best you can come up with in terms of putting together a fake case.

You are the confirmed scum I'm afraid. Cec may or may not be your buddy (if you have one) but you need to be lynched today.

[mikemike778]

Sorry I didn't comment on this earlier when I was on, but I didn't have the time at that point to make a good, well thought out post do to RL concerns.

Your defense of MikeMike is noted, but I don't see why a townsperson would not counter-claim at that point, and none of the discussion in the QT revolved around that fact at all. Furthermore, you are suggesting that you not use the Neighborizer claim then to catch what a pro-town person would view as scum in order to perserve a fakeclaim for later in the game. That is simply anti-town and exactly what scum would think. And the question isn't about what would have occured if he had counter-claimed, the question is: why didn't he? To this point, the only reasonable answer that I can come up with is: because he's scum.

FYI: My number two and three suspects are you and Cecily. You may still be a traitor despite the gunsmith investigation, and your shameless defense of MikeMike is noted.

Like I've said ... claiming would in no way help to catch scum. All it would do is give free information to the bad guys and prevent me from using my power to catch scum later on. If my Night 1 Neighbourizer attempt had worked then it would have 100% confirmed Pine. Still I guess you think it would be better to piss that chance down the drain in order to make a day 1 claim that would prove absolutely nothing.

Oh yes, of course you would think that as you are scum, forgot that for a second.

Anyway you never did explain why you thought that it might be worth us claiming at daybreak. Only rational explanation is that you are the traitor and wanted to communicate my role to your scum buddy.

[mikemike778]

I picked Bub to try and get some information on him and figure out a read. With that in mind, its time to have a little look at what he said in the QT, to see if there's anything else in there to confirm his scum spot.

Hmm... so his main scum suspects are Fitz, Satael and Cec.

He explained his Fitz suspicion in some detail, coming up with a case based on voting analysis. Not sure why he had never brought this up before (is stating a full case in a QT and never bringing it up in the main thread standard practice, seems a bit weird to me?).

Satael is an interesting one. I suppose its fairly logical in that he (Bub) has had everyone as his top suspect at some time but other than that. Care to explain why you suspected him then Bud ? Do you really think that Sat attacking Fitz meant that Sat was scum ?

Cec ... he probably had to mention her I guess given that was probably considering her a possible mislynch target.

So who wasn't one of Bub's suspects then ? Well me obviously and Bub himself of course. Plus Nacho but then again if Bub isn't a traitor then hes knows Nacho was to be Night Killed so no surprise there. Other one was Faraday. Interesting that one. That'll be Faraday (PT) who was confirmed town by Bub then confirmed scum by Bub when he voted him now he's back to confirmed town again. All in the space of Day 3.

[mikemike778]

I picked Bub to try and get some information on him and figure out a read. With that in mind, its time to have a little look at what he said in the QT, to see if there's anything else in there to confirm his scum spot.

Hmm... so his main scum suspects are Fitz, Satael and Cec.

He explained his Fitz suspicion in some detail, coming up with a case based on voting analysis. Not sure why he had never brought this up before (is stating a full case in a QT and never bringing it up in the main thread standard practice, seems a bit weird to me?).

Satael is an interesting one. I suppose its fairly logical in that he (Bub) has had everyone as his top suspect at some time but other than that. Care to explain why you suspected him then Bud ? Do you really think that Sat attacking Fitz meant that Sat was scum ?

Cec ... he probably had to mention her I guess given that was probably considering her a possible mislynch target.

So who wasn't one of Bub's suspects then ? Well me obviously and Bub himself of course. Plus Nacho but then again if Bub isn't a traitor then hes knows Nacho was to be Night Killed so no surprise there. Other one was Faraday. Interesting that one. That'll be Faraday (PT) who was confirmed town by Bub then confirmed scum by Bub when he voted him now he's back to confirmed town again. All in the space of Day 3.

Five stars for misrepping me completely. Obviously the combination of Faraday's claim and me discovering your obv scum behaviour earier in the game have altered my reads somewhat. I never said that PT was confirmed scum. I jumped the gun in saying he was "confirmed town" the first time, but this time around I seriously doubt that Faraday/PT is scum given the claims.

How is this misrepping you? Is the above on accurate representation of what you were thinking (or claim you were thinking) last night ? I've never claimed it represented anything else. The point is your reads have been all over the place and some of your voting has seemed almost random. Think I read somewhere that whilst town read posts to figure out how the information will help them find scum, scum read posts to see how they can use the information to help themselves.

And this in a nutshell is you all over.

Its like you've been reading through and coming across stuff and thinking 'excellent I'll use that' and out comes the vote - its almost like your previous thoughts on the player are irrelevent. The PT/Faraday thing was the perfect example of this.

You still haven't answered the following questions:

1. Why you suspected Satael ?
2. Why you wanted to claim I had been neighboured ?

Lol at Faraday, he's like a 5 year old wanting a chocloate bar. Sorry dude its probably Mylo so we need to get this right and Bub is scum so get voting.

[mikemike778]

Bub do you actually have any case on we whatsoever apart from my role ? Here's some other things for you to think about if you actually think this constitutes a case ..

1. Given that I had seen Voided's role D1, why do you think I use my neighbouring when if I was scum, it could according to Bub logic incriminate me. How could it possibly help me as scum ?

2. Given I had seen Pine's claim D2 and I knew that I attempted to do something Night 1, why do you think I used my neighbouring when if I was scum, it could according to Bub logic incriminate me. How could it possibly help me as scum ?

3. Why do you think I was so (probably unreasonably to be fair) aggressive towards Rhino to get him to answer the question re would the tracker pick me up. According to Bub logic Rhino would answer it would pick me up ?

And here are some more questions. What did you think when you got messaged that you had been neighboured by me ? What did you do to make use of this information did you do any reading up on me ? - at the time did you even consider the Voided/Pine stuff and think it was OK or did it not even cross your mind ? I appreciate that you scum so probably figured there were easier targets to frame but you know you could have at least tried to make out you were thinking like town.

[mikemike778]

we could play I-spy instead. Cards isnt practical

I spy with my little eye something beginning with C

[mikemike778]

mikemike ---- Last visited: Mon May 16, 2011 1:52 EST pm

Hey mikemike...wtf is the delay? Do you disagree that Cecily is confirmed scum and if not....why no vote. FMPOV if Cecily is not scum then Faraday and Setael BOTH are. Is that what you think?

I don't know ... you have been a top suspect for me all game. I'm not ruling you out as some sort of traitor role.

Bub's lack of a hammer indicates to me he doesn't know who his partner is and suspects it could well be Cesily but he could well be wrong. I'd rather not take the chance and lynch Bub and then figure it out tomorrow.

POE is fine but I haven't seen that much scummy about Ces other than her lurkiness which isn't a strong tell in my eyes. It only takes one incorrect town read for it all to fall apart. Bub is scum and should be the pick for today - scum read > POE.

[mikemike778]

I hope it's a chocolate croissant.

No it was Cat

[mikemike778]

Yep I was like you guys, I thought Cesily was likely to be my buddy - when she was logging in and not posting I thought she was looking for a chance to hammer. I was 99.99% sure Bub was town based on the QT and thought there was enough in his play to have a chance to get him lynched so figured I'd tunnel in there.

Re Bub - although you got the right guy, it was for the wrong reasons as pretty much everything I said I did was accurate. Eg. with Pine I was going to claim and buslynch him but instead did what I figured a town would do - ask Rhino what would happen and when he implied there would be no result, didn't claim. Ditto with the failed attempt on Jahudo.

Thanks for the win anyway Faraday Didn't particularly love my role as wasn't sure how to play it (was close to not neighboring anyone) but still not been lynched on this site yet so can't be doing that badly.

[mikemike778]

@ mod or whoever: How is 2 scum and a neighborizer traitor balanced by 1 vig and 1 neighborizer for town? I'm not experienced with setups but the reason we all assumed Faraday was telling the truth was we didn't think it was possible that was all we had.

Also, Faraday did you suspect mikemike was your traitor?

I was neutral really for balance purposes. Couldn't do much to influence the game other than get in the way - was hard to mislead anyone as I didn't know myself and if Faraday was lynched we'd have lost.

[mikemike778]

Thanks for the win anyway Faraday Didn't particularly love my role as wasn't sure how to play it (was close to not neighboring anyone) but still not been lynched on this site yet so can't be doing that badly.

Yeah, it's hard to play. Neighbourising means you can become proper scum though, so.

Well, not COMPLETELY proper scum. He would have had scum team knowledge and night communication, but he still couldn't make a kill and it would still be game over if both goons were killed.

On the plus side, mikemike should have had an advantage in that its easier to look like you're genuinely scum hunting when you don't know who the scum are. The problem is, if you're too good at scum hunting and lynch the goons, well

I thought you played the role pretty well mike sorry if you didn't love the role that was half the motivation for giving you the neighborizing ability to spice it up a little.

No it was sort of interesting to play , just wouldn't want that role regularly as didn't really know what to do. In the end I figured I'd just play as town early doors and then when Pine went down tunnel in on someone I was sure was town.

[mikemike778]

Vote: Chkflip

Now with the knowledge that Pine is scum, this post looks really bad:

UNVOTE: P.T.
VOTE: Satael

Way too interested in rushing the current wagon, amongst other scummy things they've done.

That was the extent of the case that chk was presenting against Sateal. It was a terribly weak vote, and it reads of chk trying to attack the attacker of a scumbud (chainsaw defense).

@Chk: What made Satael's pushing of the pine wagon scummy at that time?

Doesn't seem a great scum tactic to me ... Pine was looking very likely to be lynched, not sure that scum would want to put their head on the line by trying to slow down the wagon. Yeah agreed 100% on the weak vote though.

mike, i'm curious - when you posted this, did you think chkflip was scum?

Not massively ... it was more a 'this is what I would be thinking if I was town' kinda post. I didn't have a town read on him though otherwise I wouldn't have posted that.

[mikemike778]

mike did you seriously not pick up on my OBVIOUS hints calling you to hammer lol?

Lol I just thought it was pretty amusing and ignored it tbh. I knew Bub was town and knew he would lynch Cec sooner or later so it was all pretty much irrelevent. If she was my buddy I figured I'd at least make you lot kill her instead of handing it to you.