Mini1147-Royal Mafia at the Round Table (Game Over!)

[farside22]

Hey all.
Lets see I see Oso and Juls already naming the people they know. Twisted spoon already buddying up to Oso.
Obviously I'm not the warm welcoming type.

[farside22]

Hey all.
Lets see I see Oso and Juls already naming the people they know. Twisted spoon already buddying up to Oso.
Obviously I'm not the warm welcoming type.

Somebody is grumpy.

End of year deadline at work. It finally ends tomorrow and I can't wait.

[farside22]

vote: juls

I feel I can read you the best and earlier pressure on you will tell me your alignment.

[farside22]

You can read me the best after not playing with me maybe once? Over a year ago? Wow, impressive. What kind of reaction would you expect.

OMG OMG OMG...farside voted me on D1 in the RV stage. *panic mode*


...and lets put this back where it belongs

Vote: Rhinox

I have a good memory when it comes to games I enjoyed.

I thought we played two games together?

[farside22]

Ha! I knew I wasn't going crazy. There was the one I replaced in and this one:

https://www.mafiascum.net/archive/viewtopic.php?t=9728

pfft my memory is better then yours apparently.

[farside22]

I dont count that game. It was one of the first I played. I was very immature about the idea of getting targetted. I quit mafia over it for a while. That game is no indication of the player I came back as or am today. I remembered you in that one. When I say you "played" with me once that is what I meant. In the first one, I floundered. But somehow I think you know all that but I question your reasons for bringing it up.

I brought it up because whether some gets replaced or leaves do to frustration I do remember you in the game and I consider it playing with someone. When you said we played

a

game together I thought about the game I linked and maybe it was someone else I had in mind.
The last game we were in would be where I had a good read on you. No I don't expect you to go into fits over a vote but it was to get your attention and it's RVS.

[farside22]

Rhinox post 38 I do this all the time no matter my alignment. How often do you see scum do this? What about players that are town?

Post 43 I get your reasoning on why it's scummy, I guess I just don't think about it in terms of covering my ass.
post 45
Funny enough when I do an RVS vote I don't roll a dice. I either pick a person who is a VI or someone I played with when I can't find a VI.
It's part seeing how they react to my comment and part just plain RVS with a purpose. I look at how they respond, if they respond, panic, non panic, casual, joking. It just gives me ideas that I put to the side and think about throughout the game.

Oso post 47 I don't see a contradiction. It looks a bit more jokey reading it. Ender's OMGUS reaction is a bit more odd.

juls post 48 Not a fan of following.

@twisted: Any scum reads from you? Anything standing out? Your post post 52 has people at null. I also don't see everything as RVS when 2 people are voting for serious reasons on Oso.

@Me=Weird: What do you see from EA that was scummy?

So far the person that I find scummy is TS. He didn't respond to what was going on the game. When things are going on he does a RVS instead of commenting on it.
Finally when asked about the reads it's null and nothing odd for Oso.

Next up. I don't like Jul's following of Rhinox in post 48.

unvote:
vote TwistedSpoon

Oso: how do you have a town read on TS? What is your view on the discussion between myself and Juls?

[farside22]

Um, I don't have a town read on TS.

The only two people I have mentioned in regards to possible alignment are Erratus and Ender.

As to you and Juls, since you weren't really arguing even with your vote on her, I'm going to say that it is null banter.

Sorry it was Me=Weird that said that.
Question goes to Me=Weird.

@Oso: What is your read of TS so far?

[farside22]

Farside: Why single out TS? Javert, Klazam, Saurus and to a lesser extent Juls haven't really said much either.

Javert - He had 3 post (1) was confirm/chatter - RVS - then follow up with french
All of which is not much to go on.

Klazam - confirm - random vote page one now v/la (IE: hasn't read the thread from what I see so how is he on the list?)

Saurus - no post. How is he on the list?

I'm not calling out lurkers. I'm talking about someone who is posting in thread and reading the game, but saying very little.

Why not ask about Prosaurus?

@Rhinox - She joked about it, that is a null tell. Willing to meet the vote head on and question it was a good sign. However there are a few things I haven't liked from her post there after. I touched on one the other I'm watching for now.

[farside22]

opinion question: which is worse, an active lurker or a lurker?

Active lurking is worse. I found lurkers to be null when it comes to alignment. I can't say the same for active lurking.

I don't know how I missed the post by Prosaur.

[farside22]

TS: What is your view of Oso compared to the other game you two were in?

Juls: What did you think about Oso's response to Rhinox?

EA: what do you think about the Rhinox/Oso discussion or the Juls/me discussion? Why no comments in regards to it?

Prosaurus: How do you expect to find scum if your skimming the thread? Have you played mafia online before? Is this your first game on MS?

[farside22]

farside - I like that you are asking questions, this is a good, proactive sign. However, I wonder, do you often mistake activity for scumminess? I ask because you seem to be targetting the most active people. Is this because they are providing you with more material to analyze or because you are getting scum vibes off them?

Not always. This game is on page 4. Klazam had 3 post. One was RVS. Javert hasn't said anything that I can get a read off of (he just posted something I will get to in a moment). It's more lack of anything to question or get a read off of. So far only you and TS are giving me the biggest scum vibes at this point.
Jav wins for best feel of this game so far:

All of the questions in this game so far seem like attempts to squeeze blood from a turnip.

hmmm Javert: why are you attacking Juls for questioning your vote? Do you think a vote without comment doesn't deserve to be questioned?
Also so far I noted you haven't said much of anything about the players in this game. Your post before now was a RVS.
Now you post you don't have a read, then just vote for ender.

unvote:
vote: Javert

Usually I see scum who have a harder time reading people.

[farside22]

I see one thing that stands out for ender's post, but I think Javert needs to expand more on his views.

[farside22]

And this tell is really only applicable (i) to players who, as scum, are not good at fabricating suspicions on people, and (ii) to situations where there is enough information in the thread that everybody is likely to have firm opinions on people. Neither of which is the case here.

(i) I don't know your scum. I know we played a game together but I don't remember much beyond that. (ii) Some people have views on players. Rhinox pointed out something from Oso, I have my views on a few players.
When you say next to nothing in the game and say ender is scummy read his post I find nothing from you that gives me warm fuzzy feelings or reasoning then why is questioning your "read" lazy?

[farside22]

Oso: The game you were in with Javert that he had the attitude was he town or scum?

@Javert: I still don't think people asking for a case should be pulling teeth. It certainenly didn't need the attitude with it.
*mutters*

Any reason why you don't say anything to Juls who hops on to Rhinox logic?

unvote:

[farside22]

Javert's claim is easily provable. He already stated he would use this today.
Any doubts about this should be brought up if he "changes his mind".

@Ender: Did you notice anyone else lurking? If so why did you single out NE?

[farside22]

Necessary Evil has lurked the most. Klazam and Maxous have lurked too according to the activity overview.

NE hasn't posted anywhere that I can find since the 31'st, Klazam is on V/LA and Maxous is posting around MS but not here.

HI MAXOUS, CARE TO PUT SOME TIME INTO THIS GAME

[farside22]

I don't mind being Day Killed,

why might this be?

vote: Twistedspoon

[farside22]

@EA: Seriously? What type of answer would you expect from that? What about ender's comments to Javert?

@ender: Don't you think reading a thread from a claimed day vig is not pressure? Why is a a wasted kill and how would you know that it is?

unvote:
vote: ender

[farside22]

@EA: Do you really think scum is going to say meh go ahead and shot me? In other words there is no reason to ask that question that doesn't look like role fishing.

huh for some reason I thought ender didn't have an issue with Javert shooting, but then I see he didn't believe the claim.

@Ender: Your voting for pressure on someone not posting, what is different with a vote and a threat that may or may not be true? It's still pressure. Your comment reads as though you know it's a bad kill.

[farside22]

sorry should be ender

[farside22]

http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/9485/1147post145.png

I didn't say you were lying either. I thought I hit preview.

I will ask the mod since it's not in the rules not to mod kill me for the infarction and if necessary you can replace me instead.

[farside22]

Thanks EA. I asked the mod if anyone thought I was doing it to cheat that he should replace me. I didn't want anyone to think I did it for those reasons.
It's part being a mod too long and part my job where I can edit everything I do that some things just become a natural response. I promise to preview edit my post first.

Back to scum hunting!!!

NE:

You're absolutely correct. That doesn't mean that you're not scum or that I shouldn't find your post suspicious. I still don't see any reason not to take EA's vote seriously other than timing. The tipping point was really your case on Ender on very very thin reasoning.

Have you been reading the same game I have? Many people seem to be going off of thin reasoning for their votes.

EA:

Yeah, I do. How is it role fishing? It's not like there's any normal role that wants to be shot, so I really doubt it's role related.

I see no good reason for the question. I don't see scum saying OK then shoot me. And asking that question could reveal information from the player. (yes I could see 2 normal roles that ask to be shot).

Also this:

Similarly, I don't think Prosaurus's claim to not mind being dayvigged is likely a gambit, so I'm leaning town on him too. Not as sure as I am with Ender, but I definitely want to move my vote now.

was my thinking. Call it seeing newb town player vs scum newb play.
Yeah I'm using the newb card on Pro myself.

I don't like NE's case either. Many people are going on what they can find whether small or minor. Also if he still thinks Oso is scummy why change his vote from Oso to Ender?
@NE: why change your vote? Do you think both are scum together and why?

[farside22]

I don't try to tie people together until at least one of them is already dead. Oso is less scummy than Twistedspoon, Prosaurus, and ender right now.

But you still think Oso is scummy right? That is what I read.
Why is what ender did scummier then Oso to switch your vote to ender?


[quote="Juls]It's the way he is presenting his cases thats off to me. When he attacks someone he presents it to the town instead of attacking the person outright and asking them questions. Am I completely off my rocker or does anyone else see what I see?[/quote]
I don't see it

@Juls: It's not anti-town to agree with someone, I usually find scum using others views and buddying up in scum and I recall you doing that in our last game to another player (buddying up)
Nothing so far screams town reading you. Your case on Me=Weird doesn't make sense to me either.

I know some scum will gambit to look town. It's possible ender is scum with a gambit because he's at L-2 that he's hoping for someone to vote so as scum that he could hammer to neuter the claimed vig. But the first time doing it doesn't make sense as scum for there is no reason for the gambit.
hmmmmm,,,, I need to think on this a bit.


Maxous: You seemed like you had a theory on another player then dropped it and had a case on ender (that was already discussed) and EA. What is with the hmmm on TS then dropping it?

[farside22]

as TS seems likes he's trying to stay in the back seat while everyone else fights. I considered voting Klazam too, but there's a better way of dealing with him: Hey Javert, you said you'd vig someone for 4 days without content? Well Klazam has gone the entire game without content, so you know what to do.

No. I would agree if he were active lurking but he is not existing at all. There is no reason to vig him unless he has a replacement that gives us a reason to think he is scummy.

I just looked at Klazam and he is posting elsewhere around MS for the past few days. He also said he was bad with day 1. I don't know if there is any truth to this and is worth looking into.
I will have more thoughts tonight when I get home.

[farside22]

why not? Or would you rather I did it?

Bad grammar and interruptions galore FTW.
I meant to say I don't know if there is any truth to this and it is worth looking into.
I just need to find time.

I know I said I would get to this tonight but I slept like crap last night (little one crawled into bed and kept us up for a couple of hours) and I need to really look into a few players in depth.
This game has my first priority come tomorrow.

*Note:
This promise excludes Mod List duties and modding and is good for mafia games only.
This promise is for a limited time of 48 hours only

.

[farside22]

Going thru some research and iso's at this time. I need to get ready to leave so I'm putting my thoughts at where I am right now.

Klaz: I looked into a few of your games. I would like you to explain why you believe you have shitty day 1? The rest of Klaz is nothing to go on as it's V/LA and will post later.


ender: rereading ender in iso there isn't much to go off of. His vote on Prosaurus is meh. The situation with Javert is more interesting.
Unless ender/Javert are scum together I don't see scum saying this:

UNVOTE: VOTE: Javert Start answering questions, i doubt your a DayVig.

My problem is this:

Just vote him already godamnit! He's trying it on, it's like saying "I'm the bomb, the last person to vote me so i am lynched will die." Which is basically warning us off voting for him so he gets away with doing what he wants and noone can stop him, he can't kill all of us.

Why say he can't kill all of us if you don't believe he is a vig? That contradicts the previous statement.

ender claims one-shot cop. I've been in enough games that I rarely see a game without a cop and no counter claim, unless scum have a cop role which is more rare and usually in non normal games.

He also keeps egging Javert, which shows over and over he doubts the claim.
I'm not going to WIFOM the set up and base this on what is normal or I will starting feeling paranoid.

In short the claim trumps all else.

EA: Did you ever see an answer to this?

What do you mean by "Mostly a random vote, if you know what I mean"? That's a weird qualifier. Why'd you tack it on to your vote?

UNVOTE: Ender
VOTE: Klazam

I didn't see anything from Klaz. What is your view on Klaz?

ummmm I don't get how an RVS vote from ender got that response from you. Have you ever seen town let their guard down when someone says something like ender did?

Playing the newb card to defend not scumhunting is the scummiest thing I've seen this whole game.

UNVOTE: Klazam
VOTE: Prosaurus

Honestly I don't see anyone doing any strong reads at this point, but this switch from Klaz to a newb looks like a let me switch for weak reason vote, then finding scum.
Then after questioning Pro

Similarly, I don't think Prosaurus's claim to not mind being dayvigged is likely a gambit, so I'm leaning town on him too. Not as sure as I am with Ender, but I definitely want to move my vote now.

Really?! I mean why do you think someone who is newb would do a gambit like that in the first place? Why does it take a few questions to determine this?
I feel like EA gives in to things without delving further into his suspicion. He makes one argument, someone counters he goes to the next person. Maybe it's because if something or someone gives me scum vibes or find their actions to be scummy I will fight harder.
But his vote from Klaz to Pro to NE gives me pause. Klaz never answered, many people seem to find difficultly in this game and the how newbie card comment from EA looks forced.
Leaning scum

Maxous: This is a hard one. I had a gut moment of town early on. He's not posting enough to really get a good read on him. Maxous: Can you do a break down on your views of the players in the game?
His post in regards to EA/Ender was something said by many (I don't think EA as much as ender).
I have another issue, but I want Maxous to give me his views before I go further. I hate to have a gut check turn into questionable but that is where I'm at right now.

My vote on ender is pointless.

unvote:
vote: EA

[farside22]

@:Rhinox: Why is Ender an "easy target"?
And who are the scum that are speculating on his role?(in your opinion)

He just reads as that typical scummy looking townie in every game that is easy to attack and doesn't defend himself well. Easy for scum to go after. Low hanging fruit. My vote should tell you who I suspect for speculating.

In general, those were a couple weak questions IMO. Why did you ask them?

Why say this, then not follow up with Maxous questions to you?
Instead you go back to TS as scum. What reason do you believe TS is scum?

EA: Pro said I don't mind being vigged. You asked him why he stated this comment. Not hey vig, shoot me.
There is a difference in wording.
How do you know his attitude isn't fake? IE: You think one comment is fake, but not the other????


Klaz: I don't see anything but one on why you are voting Me=Weird
I also read your other games and ususually you have more information in your post on who you believe is scum and why

examples:
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 62&start=0


http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 60&start=0

This latest post from you reads lazy scum.

Rhinox: Where is your town read of EA coming from?

[farside22]

Iso's continued:

Javert - first gut reaction is jerk.
This is my biggest problem with Javert

If you want to DayVig you should wait until we have pretty much confirmed scum.

I'll find out what he is tonight.

ender241, I hope you're getting around to explaining this.

Why the pressure for a claim? Wasn't the soft claim pretty self explanatory?
Now you have the unvote, while thinking. What were you expecting with this exercise?

Juls - As I said early and reread of Juls nothing really screams town. Plus there is the buddying I talked about with Rhinox which reminded me of our last game together.
There are post that say next to nothing of value (IE: Fluff)

As for prosaurus playing the newb card. Without discussing his ongoing games, I will just say that it is not a surprise for him to play the newb card, nor do I find it scummy. This is Pro's first non-newbie game. While I don't plan to allow him to get by on that without scum-hunting I'm not going to assume he is auto-scum based on it. It can be intimidating playing with experienced players as a very raw new player.

Talks about the way Me-Weird presents a case, which I don't get.
Most of my feel on Juls is meta/gut. It's also lack of content. She was one of few to make a case on someone else but it was weak.
null leaning scum


me=weird - + points to MW for breaking down the EA case.
This is in regards to TS statement of Ender hinting a PR:
Two things. 1. Why are you so against ender claiming/us finding stuff out about his role? 2. You're implying you would just take him at face value, ignoring possibilities of him being scum. Why are you so convinced of his towniness?
1. Did you read the light claim from ender why or what does a full claim gain the town (2) if he's scum fake claiming/hinting then he outs the real none of this happened soooo how is he scum?
I like your points on NE especially this:

First, he says he thinks the votes on ender are "ridiculous", but later on(when there's a wagon) he votes ender for including possibilities of javert being town, which as I have said multiple times, even though there are more possibilities of him being town, doesn't mean he is. The one where he's scum could still be more probable.

There is some back and forth between NE and MW that I need to read NE before I decide on a few things here:

And I see that the point is a stretch at best as the only thing NE stated was during the rVS stage here:

here
I found something in MW that I believe means he is town. I'm going to hold this one close to the chest.


NE: I don't' care for his vote or reasoning for voting ender. He does explain his reasoning to EA and further reasoning.
Do you think everyone on the Javert wagon is scum? One? more? My biggest complaint would be that I don't see many suspects for various reasons from him.
He thought Oso was scum and that changed. Now he has a list of 4 all of who was on Javert's wagon, but I don't see further reasons (except ender) for suspecting them.
Now he votes for TS.
meh read = null/uncertain
NE: Is your TS vote in conclusion with the Javert wagon. What about Pro?


Oso: I read him as town. This is gut feeling more then anything before I get into his post
I read his RVS as aggressive scum hunting early on, he has good points on why he believes ender is scum and gives good points on his belief in Javert's claim.
This all reads as intuition/reading the game and analyzing the game and players.
read: town

break time.
I took the day off do to lack of sleep. I should finish this today after a nap.

[farside22]

Assuming these are directed at me.

1. Did you read the light claim from ender why or what does a full claim gain the town (2) if he's scum fake claiming/hinting then he outs the real none of this happened soooo how is he scum?

1. If you mean the "I'll find out what he is tonight", then yes. I still wanted a claim because it was possible he was scum and would claim something else. 2. Can you rephrase this? I'm having trouble figuring out what you mean.

1. I guess. I would assume either a cop claim with that comment or scum trying to out the real cop. I don't see anything else that fits.
2. I'm saying (badly) that if ender was scum fake claiming/hinting then wouldn't a real cop counter claim? I mean I saw it as ender either scum trying to out a cop or town that is the cop. Hinting alone I feel would have brought this out. I don't see it as ender scum at that point.

[farside22]

@Oso: I had a bit different theory then you did with those comment from MW.

@Maxous: Any reason your not voting anyone currently? Or not pressuring anyone with your vote?

[farside22]

Pro - newb town - ugh so many things I want to say and put my IC hat on about.

First voting even anyone for any reason is good. It brings discussion and if someone hammers for no reason during the first few pages they are more likely scum.
Hence voting someone even during RVS is a good thing for info.
Pointing out a soft claim helps scum.
Seeing Javert respond to the same most makes me cringe if Javert is town as I see more scum motivation then town for pointing out the soft claim.
Also I have a question for you. Juls states you are in another game have you learned nothing on how to scum hunt or things that sound off/scummy or seen anything in this game that you see that feels or reads off?
Your 3rd point in your last point is a good start, it's more theory then anything but expand more.
Anyways reading Pro I read someone a bit lost.


Rhinox: The question you ask to TS about asking/specualing others roles. EA asked the same question as TS. Why point out TS and not EA?

- I think of Javert's comment about the questions in this game when reading Rhinox. He is very low under the radar, but when I see this and read TS I believe my first theory is wrong and I see more careful, planing and questioning from a town prospective

Actually, paying more attention to your iso, every post you've made from iso 11 to your current post iso 17, each and every one of those posts, the main topic of your post is speculating about someone's role.

Need to looks into this a bit

TS:
11. Ask why Javert claimed? I don't see this a problem with this question.
12. I pointed this out as well. I saw it as role fishing.
13. how is this role speculating?
14. is hypocritical, see iso post 12.
15. answering the question posed by ender
16. more role fishing exposer
17. and I see speculating.

unvote:
vote: TS

I still think EA is scummy. Klaz would be the person next on my list of scum. He's made some weak points in his read and view that do not add up to his past game behavior.
The points against TS far outweigh anything else. Role fishing, hypocrisy, more role fishing and floating by with no real case on anyone.

[farside22]

@Oso: I had a bit different theory then you did with those comment from MW.
..

I'd say go ahead with it but then I'd really like to hear what M=E has to say about it before anyone attacks/endorses/counters my last post.

But if you feel the need to, go ahead.

I would rather MW defend the case. My theory is more feeling/theory. I don't have an issue with him responding to it.

You should vote for TS in my view however.

[farside22]

When Javert first claimed I had assumed he would have used it by now. By the way he was swinging his claim around like a club I thought that he was going to use it soon. I guess it might just have been a ruse to stop lurkers lurking. Anyways, Javert, will you be vig'ing today still? If so, who are your scumreads?

Why? It doesn't matter when he uses it today as long as it's today. And if it was a gambit to get a lurkers attention it didn't work very well on Klaz.

TS: In one post who do you find to be scum and why?

@Juls:

I think it would be epically stupid for a cop to cc ender on D1.

Why?
Normal game means doctor is a good possibility and we lynch confirmed scum. mmmm normal also means a good possibility of scum RB too......for me I would rather lynch confirmed scum day 1.

My scum-reads right now are TS and Max. I have some hate going on for ender right now though with that "accident" comment. And something isn't right for me with M=W still. But I would rather pursue something more tangible.

Well we agree on one. Max latest response on not knowing who to vote is odd. I don't see who there could be a problem. If you have suspicion then that is good enough to vote.
I see his date of starting on MS.
Max have you ever had a mafia role on MS?

[farside22]

Sorry I forgot to quote the first paragraph there.

When Javert first claimed I had assumed he would have used it by now. By the way he was swinging his claim around like a club I thought that he was going to use it soon. I guess it might just have been a ruse to stop lurkers lurking. Anyways, Javert, will you be vig'ing today still? If so, who are your scumreads?

Why? It doesn't matter when he uses it today as long as it's today. And if it was a gambit to get a lurkers attention it didn't work very well on Klaz.

TS: In one post who do you find to be scum and why?

[farside22]

Javert: Fair enough.

Let me be on record saying that i believe all three claims (D-Vig, and cops) that has been made today.

Also:

unvote vote Prosaurus

I no longer feel sure that M=W is scum. PS is the next most scummiest in my eyes.

Reasons????

FoS: farside22. Experience cuts against you here. I find it hard to believe you are really propounding the whole “it is antitown to point out an obvious breadcrumb and force a clarification.”

I don't ever agree with outting a PR. If I see something in thread I'm not going to point it out as I feel that information helps the scum team more then town.
I've hid information on PR's many times seeing as scum most of the time miss underling hints or worry about a doctor in the game.
But each claim, if there is a doctor, helps narrow down the field for the scum.

EA: How is ender's play any better then TS? Would you put them under the same category with lack of context?

Honestly I can't see 2 one shot cops. I've never heard of it. Juls broken down the possibilities, but I wonder do you (Juls) have a view on any one of those possibilities between the two players?

[farside22]

EA: Why are you ignoring Klaz who is pretty much doing next to nothing when it comes his reasoning? I see you mentioned this with Pro.
I see Pro at least going thru what everyone is saying and replying the the case against him.
Klaz on the other hand I feel. His reason's for voting for Pro was for role fishing but he doesn't say anything about TS who was doing the same thing. I have to wonder when people leave out those who when you look at their post and doesn't comment on them.

Also when he looks into TS he states the following:

I'm ambivalent on TS. Null for now.

vote Me=Weird

I really don't get this at all.

Vote: Klazam

@Oso: I can ask you the same. How did you get null read from TS, what changed your mind on him when you were willing to put him at L-1?

[farside22]

Oso: The last time you mentioned TS you stated you had a null read here

Now there was a case you switch over I was wondering why it wasn't brought up and how it went from null to scum

[farside22]

maxous I don't get a null read on someone who I did an ISO of and saw the rolefishing that Rhinox mentioned and Klaz was saying he found both MW and Pro scummy for role fishing. I don't see how he missed TS.

[farside22]

Okay those not voting need to get their votes and reasoning out there. There is only 9 days till deadline. I also agree that if Javert has a shot he should take it soon. There should be a lynch and I believe a vig kill can also give information. Look at those who voted and why. See who stayed off wagon's. If Javert shot's mafia look at interactions between players.

I can't believe people are bypassing Klaz.

@Me=Weird: What do you think Pro hasn't answered to that still makes him scummy?

I'm a bit fuzzy on everything do to this cold I got.

[farside22]

Mod: Please prod ender

Also, I was thinking we give Javert a town-imposed deadline of midnight Wednesday (tomorrow) April 13 to give town 1 week to decide a lynch. If he hasn't decided by Wednesday, then he is probably fake-claiming and he can be our lynch. Does that sound good?

I think if he shots any later then 7 days into deadline it would be scummy in my view. The lag in this game in very noticeable, plus look at the votes. It's really bad that there is no defining BW taking place at this time.

[farside22]

@Farside: Do you think it is possible Javert has a day vig power and be scum?

No. Not in a normal game at least. I only once seen a day vig be scum and I created the role in a theme game with the stipulation that the mafia could not kill that night. It was an unlimited day vig scum.

Alright, sorry everyone for being away.

Top 3 scum from everyone.

1) Klaz
2) TS
3) EA

EA is actually moving down further towards null where as maxous has gone close from questionable to scummy. That's more gut and things that make me scratch my head a bit.

[farside22]

@Farside: Do you think it is possible Javert has a day vig power and be scum?

No. Not in a normal game at least. I only once seen a day vig be scum and I created the role in a theme game with the stipulation that the mafia could not kill that night. It was an unlimited day vig scum.

Okay.
Now why in the world would Javert be 'scummy' in your view if he shot less than 7 days before the deadline?

It hurts the town if a vig shoots late in the day to do a lynch and I just can't see a town reason for vigging someone late in the game. Usually late game lynching = rushing to lynch a player and that doesn't give information all the time. Or sometimes there will be a no lynch.
I don't agree with no lynches. You always wonder if the person you were pushing was scum, your back on day 2 with the same theory and not always a lot of information.

[farside22]

@ Erratus

Why is it a lie? Or even bad play?

D1, two claimed, 1-shot PRs. Being willing to believe the claims for the remainder of the day, hoping both are true, while still being highly suspicious of the players making the claims.

I don't see the problem here.

But you said in the quote that you believed TS's claim. If you believe the claim then why is he part of your top 3?

[farside22]

Maxous, can you please consolidate why you think I'm scum into one post. Thanks.
I can see Oso as an alternate lynch, seeing as how EA made a good point about believing the claims and still suspecting them.
Also, 244 by klazam, he accuses me and PS of role-fishing for mentioning the "I'll find out tonight", but, completely ignores 179, by oso, which was pointing out ender's softclaim, which could also be role-fishing. This could definitely be scum together, with klazam not wanting to spread suspicion on his partner.

This was my thinking with Klazam and TS. I completely missed Oso comment. It's not as interesting as this part below the rolefishing:

For my part, I'm still processing that one. Could be awkward wording or an incomplete thought or a soft-claim. I haven't decided which one for myself yet.

Man I need to reread this guy again. Has he always been giving himself multiple scenarios without giving his own opinion?
Its the let me be as vague as possible so I can slide in later and call it scummy since i never had a set opinion feel to it. This one and the one that EA quoted.

[farside22]

Pro: My view on this is that scum tend to not give a full opinion and leave their options open.
The I believe them for now but putting them on his scum list is letting him go either way without suspicion. It also doesn't make sense.
I had a strong town read on Oso. EA's moved up from scummy/null to null/town. He's pushing things and scum hunting. I'm not sure why Rhinox is questioning EA's push on those he finds scummy.
Nothing so far has changed my view on Klaz. NE is on V/LA till Sunday but he needs to post more once he gets back. Juls is right he is the least active in the game and his biggest, most indepth comments was when he was fighting EA on his read of ender.

[farside22]

PEOPLE!

Willing =/= believe! Geez!

Anyway, has no one noticed that Klaz clearly has plenty of experience? How can he be newb?

I certain did not. I even posted a few links to completed games where he was town. Compare that to this game and it's not very similiar. He writes more in depth those games in regards to scum suspects and even post more. This time very low under the radar and not saying much about anyone.

Rhinox: I could say the same about your play reading you prior. It's like your here but not really pushing anything. How do you think lynching someone you have no read on helps?

[farside22]

Bah!
Juls it wasn't a lurker hunt for me. It was his lack of reads and scum hunting. Plus I didn't like that when he posted those that were rolefishing he ignored TS.
God I feel like I need to burn my notes and start from fresh again.

Unvote

While I reread a few things.

[farside22]

I'm reevaluating the main 3 that people are talking about.

Oso - I would not lynch Oso. Although I found EA's point interesting it does not outway the scum hunting, questioning and POV's that oso has displayed today. He's evulated many people in the game and brought up cases that ring town to me.

NE: I don't care much for NE's reason's for finding MW scummy. Their weak tells (on is a stregth at best). He has found TS scummy most of the game and he defended his reasoning for his vote on ender well. However I see no strong scum reads coming from him.
MW - I have many issues with MW recently. He has called Oso town most of the day but when EA brings up a point he states the follow:

Maxous, can you please consolidate why you think I'm scum into one post. Thanks.
I can see Oso as an alternate lynch, seeing as how EA made a good point about believing the claims and still suspecting them.

He also barely mentions Klaz all day but has no problem jumping on the BW here:

Hm. I don't entirely approve of the ender kill.
Post #244: Klazam attacked me and prosaurus for "role-fishing". Scum often look for townies doing common "scumtells" that are so widely known, scum don't actually do anymore. And thus useless as scum-tells.
This, combined with not providing much reasoning for his votes, lots of short, content sparse posts and scum vibes, makes me think he's scum. He seems like the most likely of my scumspects to get lynched, and I don't like wasting my vote, so

Unvote, Vote: Klazam

Also he made a case on NE here but NE never stated it was rediculous and when he had stated something about Ender it was during the RVS discussion.
Finally he is attack on Pro looks scummy as I feel Pro is newb asking question and trying to figure things out but he spins it more into something scummy.

vote: Me=Weird

In short I find MW and NE scummy for different reasons. I find MW's post more scummy as I see him pushing on easy lynches and following BW without much reason.

[farside22]

But if both cops and the mason claims are all town, then Javert is looking an awful lot like a scum 1 shot vig to counter all the confirmed innos.

Have you ever seen a scum day vig? Has anyone? I would love to see the game if you have. I could see a scum day-vig in themed but not normal.

Never seen one in a normal game, only in theme.

[farside22]

I don't expect everybody to understand why I suspect MW. It's based mainly on the way he questioned Maxous. It's something I've done as scum before and I can see MW doing it in the situation he is in. It surprises me that you express this reservation and are still comfortable enough with the MW wagon to vote him in the same post.

This is based on the 3 main suspects for today. Your post, reaction and comments on ender rang truthful. I find your lack of push on anyone not already mentioned disturbing and would like a full view on everyone in the game from you.
MW however has done is follow BW's at least twice I have seen. He never mentions Klaz or Oso (expect to call Oso town) but has no issue voting him. That doesn't match up under any circumstance.

[farside22]

MW: The only time you mention klaz was to ask me about my read and to answer questions. Then the post before you vote for him you said you would read him then voted him the next post.
Before EA you called Oso town that was not at the very beginning.

[farside22]

Hmm I thought I saw it later in the game, but it looks like the last time you had a town read prior to below was a week ago.
However this post below reads as wishy washy. The I'm seeing it, but not voting. IE: I see this as telling as your signaling a willingness to vote but don't. And you never made a case on your own in regards to Oso

Maxous, can you please consolidate why you think I'm scum into one post. Thanks.
I can see Oso as an alternate lynch, seeing as how EA made a good point about believing the claims and still suspecting them.
Also, 244 by klazam, he accuses me and PS of role-fishing for mentioning the "I'll find out tonight", but, completely ignores 179, by oso, which was pointing out ender's softclaim, which could also be role-fishing. This could definitely be scum together, with klazam not wanting to spread suspicion on his partner.

[farside22]

EA: How or what defines for you MW as town besides that one post? I say lack of scum hunting and BWing is more likely to come from scum.

[farside22]

Vote: NE

[farside22]

if Twisted's bussing we still get scum.

VOTE: Necessary Evil

I'd think you be more graetful after my investigation. after much deliberation i decided upon NE

but anyways, I don't care, I just want to lynch scum and I think we have one here

Oh this looks like a slip. Also I don't care that he posted after with a possible framer crap.
I know I had a guilty on someone as a cop once and came out guns blazing ready to lynch the person. There wasn't a doubt in my mind.

unvote:
vote: TS

[farside22]

Also I don't care that he posted after with a possible framer crap.

well you should care

my point was that i got guilty thus NE is scum

as you put it i am ready to go 'guns out', hence my vote

Then why even say "I think" in that post I quoted? I think your second post reads as covering.

[farside22]

@Farside and Rhinox: Why did the two of you instantly beleive the result from Twistedspoon? As far as I remember he was on both of your suspect lists.

Quilford said it best but to add for someone to claim they got a guilty on another player that he was suspicious of at the end of the day I had little doubt to his claim at the start of day 2.
However seeing TS flounder now and saying "I think" he is scum then using oh he might have been framed or I might be insane, blah, blah, blah I say he slipped and is fake claiming results at this point.

[farside22]

They've both looked like town to me so far, but farside is a little scummy because she jumped on the MW wagon while attacking my vote on him in the same post.

X

I attacked your lack of scum hunting not your vote.

Mod: Posting in all games. I'm on LA this weekend.

Noted.

[farside22]

Apart from those 2, I'm not really buying Farside switching her vote because of the semantics of 'I think' and considering the possibiltiy of a framer.

Really why do you believe it?
Also my suspicion of TS yesterday and his post (which I believe is a scum slip) = not buying it doesn't make sense to you.

Awesome stuff.
I'm calling Maxous/TS scum at this point.
At Maxous and anyone else in the game. Have you ever seen a person claim cop and question it?
I only know one game I can think of but the cop in question was not a one shot cop that TS is claiming. A one shot cop that questions their sanity in a normal game? Really why? This is not a bastard theme game.

[farside22]

@Maxous see the bold

so unless you can prove that the mafioso have a framer

or I am an insane cop without knowing so

then you're mafioso

imo, I think all cops are sane unless the mechanics usually have a theme of such, like dethy

And that is all it takes for you to change your mind about voting NE? It's suspect. You changed your stance too easily over little

Yes, yes it does. You want to link someone who questioned a cop result in a normal game I'm willing to budge on this, not in a normal game with the post from TS who comes back and post immediately looks to me like he's covering a slip.
You remember what Rhinox said day 1 about Oso, who posted a comment in the game to cover his bases. Same applies here.

[farside22]

1. Based upon NE and TS's interactions would you rule anyone out as mafia or be more inclined to believe someone in particular was mafia in light of their flip?

If NE flipped scum I would look at Rhinox and EA the most. EA due to pushing on Oso and flip flopping without answering questions. Rhinox (see below). As for TS I would look more at Maxous. Not sure about who else.

2. What's your current read on Rhinox?

Rhinox is floating by. He ask questions but doesn't push toward one person or the other. He had very little interaction with NE, calls him null but would lynch him or MW. I feel this is light bussing for no reason.

3. What do you make out of TwistedSpoon claiming he believed Ender due to it being a "One-shot" themed game when Ender was the only person who had claimed a One Shot role?

I'm pretty certain Jav claimed day vig during the same time. A one shot day vig is pretty normal to me, but I have to remind myself that TS is more newb so I guess I should take that will a grain of salt

.

Answers in bold.

EA: Did you read the link that Jav posted from TS's game and compare the fake claim from that game and this? Same question to Maxous?

[farside22]

WTF WHY IS NE NOT BEING LYNCH WITH A FUCKING PASSION YET!

@Farside and Rhinox: Why did the two of you instantly beleive the result from Twistedspoon? As far as I remember he was on both of your suspect lists.

I didn't even think about a framer. Its a role I've never seen before. Is it even allowed in normals?
If NE had claimed miller after being investigated, my vote would be locked on him anyways.

TWISTED HAS NO REASON TO FAKE A GUILTY AS SCUM IN THIS SITUATION. HE WOULD FAKE AN INNO OR BE ROLEBLOCKED. TWISTED IS TOWN, NE IS SCUM. LYNCH NE!!!

I'm getting the feeling the push to put doubt in TS's claim and get him lynched instead is heavily scum-backed. I'm looking at you EA and Farside. Farside, that "I Think..." semantics argument is absolutely crap. OK add Duplicity to this list as well.

Oh so Oso comes up with an answer to a question not asked and he is scummy, but TS posting an "I think" he is scum comment with a quick response after is town.

Does not compute!

[farside22]

WTF WHY IS NE NOT BEING LYNCH WITH A FUCKING PASSION YET!

@Farside and Rhinox: Why did the two of you instantly beleive the result from Twistedspoon? As far as I remember he was on both of your suspect lists.

I didn't even think about a framer. Its a role I've never seen before. Is it even allowed in normals?
If NE had claimed miller after being investigated, my vote would be locked on him anyways.

TWISTED HAS NO REASON TO FAKE A GUILTY AS SCUM IN THIS SITUATION. HE WOULD FAKE AN INNO OR BE ROLEBLOCKED. TWISTED IS TOWN, NE IS SCUM. LYNCH NE!!!

I'm getting the feeling the push to put doubt in TS's claim and get him lynched instead is heavily scum-backed. I'm looking at you EA and Farside. Farside, that "I Think..." semantics argument is absolutely crap. OK add Duplicity to this list as well.

Oh so Oso comes up with an answer to a question not asked and he is scummy, but TS posting an "I think" he is scum comment with a quick response after is town.

Does not compute!

LOL completely different situations.

Thanks for claiming scum with NE.

How is it different. What differences are they?

Jav hadn't stated he was a one-shot vig at that point, just that he was a day-vig.

Like I said most every day vig I have run across is one shot. I don't know if TS has ever had seen a day vig in a game. TS: Have you ever seen a day vig in a game before?

[farside22]

I have a question that i would like Rhinox to answer only.

Rhinox: At the end of the day who would you think TS would investigated?

[farside22]

TS: I asked you a question.

TS: Have you ever seen a day vig in a game before?

[farside22]

Rhinox: I asked because you stated you believed with the PR's from day 1 that scum would have a RB. I figured that TS with his day 1 constant point against NE that if NE was scum why would scum take a chance and not RB him in the first place?

Ohhh i just skimmed a bit on something but did Rhinox just say he thought TS was town at the end of day 1?

....


Ah here we go

I never said TS was town specifically because of his result. I was leaning town on TS after his 1-shot cop claim.

I don't believe you did

*note research Rhinox next

Also TS: I'm assuming the vig in the game you were in was a 1 shot day vig???

[farside22]

Here's my problem. TS's claim comes after Jav's claim (the one shot isn't there but again one shot day vig is pretty normal) and right as ender starts to claim.
I also have a hard time believing in 2 one shot cops. I never have seen it and unless scum have a RB and GF or some power roles to off set that I have more trouble believing it.
He now has a guilty on NE (who he suspected most of day 1). Framer for scum? It's possible but I don't like TS's actions. Dup brings up a possible bus.
I could see this as TS trying to earn town cred by bussing his scum buddy. Then having to explain why he is still alive as the days go on put him into a trap. I don't know I would think TS scum would be smart enough to get an innocent on another player then bussing and leaving no outs.
It just doesn't make sense.
Call me paranoid in small part to a current game.

Welcome LL you would know what game that is in reference to.

[farside22]

NE obviously self-hammered to shut farside up.

VOTE: farside22

Or NE hammered before I could start putting things together.

Pro: Scum day talk is rare but not unheard of.

[farside22]

All questions from Max

- First was instantly votes NE after TS' guilty. She later stated this was because she beleived TS' claim due to him suspecting NE the whole day.

And? It was believable claim with how what he said yesterday in regards to NE. Newb cop investigating scum read makes sense.

- Then we get into the 'I think' issue, where she says TS made a slip and covered himself by saying there might be a framer. After instantly beleiving TS about the guilty.

As I said I have been a town cop before I never doubt what I was sent by the mod. If the mod tells me someone is guilty and I had a scum read on them the day before you better believe I don't doubt that PM from the mod.

- I pointed out that I was sceptical about this change of mind about beleiving TS and she responded by saying it was because she suspected TS yesterday and called myself and TS a scum team together. Seems like deflecting. Also if she suspected TS yesterday to the point where she did'nt really beleive his claim, then I am again confused about instantly voting NE.

See point 1 first response.

- This last post is the most interesting. She claims she is having a hard time beleiving there is two one-shot cops. So why did she beleive it in the first place when she voted NE?

See post 1. Seriously this is all the same question with the same answer.

- She also claims that "I would think TS scum would be smart enough to get an innocent on another player then bussing and leaving no outs."
Then why argue that TS was scum in the first place? Or am I misunderstanding something about this?

I have a tendency to tunnel on people. I start to take a step back and think about evaluating things when I see my tunneling. No one else but Dup thought TS was faking and I starting wondering if I was going crazy myself.

As for the vote count anaylsis lets look at each one:

I see Rhinox did this so I stopped from what I started 2 days ago (shesh)

I have a bunch of catch up to do. Will try and get to what I missed either tonight or tomorrow morning depending on interruptions.

[farside22]

Catch up post:

@Pro: How do you know what a day talk is if you never played scum before?
I see you said something about Mason. Have you been in a game you were mason with a day talk?

@Farside: Putting what together?

I starting questioning TS motives at the end of the day. What would scum do, what would they gain. I think NE wanted to stop conversation so he hammered.

Vote: Maxous

Discuss. I'm still rereading some things but I'll be back later with more.

I don't see it. I thought Maxous/TS day 1. But NE/Maxous? I would like you to explain why.

Ah never mind. I refrain from this question on catch up.

Assuming Twisted is town for a second, it means that one of my town-reads is incorrect, of those the one I'm least certain on given NEs flip is EA.
Assuming Twisted is scum for a second, his other partner is likely on the wagon as well as the guilty would have been planned to give them both town-cred. This is where it gets tricky, if this is the case I can see Maxous as his partner. In other words, if I can get a solid read on EA that I'm comfortable with I can get then work out TS's allignment.

I started thinking about this but I had Rhinox in my head instead of EA. Will explain once I catch up.

I disagree with mass claim. If we don't lynch scum today tomorrow leave 5 players. If there is another PR in the game that is unclaimed, let them stay unclaimed with mylo tomorrow then.

LL's case is very good. I am in the process of reread in all mini games. I will have to see if I come to any conclusion of Maxous/EA (those two I recall both were back and forth about NE)

[farside22]

Catch up post:

@Pro: How do you know what a day talk is if you never played scum before?
I see you said something about Mason. Have you been in a game you were mason with a day talk?

Well I knew scum have a quick topic, I didn't think there were rules against them using it during the day.
I think Mason must have daytalk, how else could Quilford post Juls' final reads on Day 1?

Okay for those who seem to believe Pro slipped. I believe he wasn't paying attention.
For the record Quilfords post was day 2, not day 1.

[farside22]

@Farside: How do you feel about Twistedspoon alignment after EA's flip?

Locke Lamora replaced Erratus Apathos, effective immediately. Please give him a warm welcome into the game!

Unless I missed something, which seeing LL still talking tells me I haven't, EA hasn't flipped so I have no feel for it.

[farside22]

I meant to say after NE's flip.

I honestly don't know. I keep debating with this back and forth. If TS is scum he earns town points after looking scummy all of day 1. However this puts him in a corner as the game goes on with why is he still alive. I also have to wonder about 2 - one shot cops in the game if real shouldn't the scum team have something to counter that like a GF or RB or even Framer.
Then I think about what Maxous says about TS and claiming time. I ask is TS scum smart enough to do this, he did do it in another game but later.
His play is lackluster to say the least. I feel like he's floating by without giving his own thoughts that he observed without following someone else. That to me usually comes from scum more then town.

[farside22]

His play is lackluster to say the least.

How can you say my play is bad after I investigated one of the mafioso?

Clearly that's bad for you.

Gentlemen, methinks we have our second scum

VOTE: Farside

Which also can be scum bussing.
Seriously did you even write up or have a case on NE? I don't believe I ever saw one. That's my point in a nutshell. You do nothing of your owe point of view but put comments that already been stated. That is what I call lackluster

[farside22]

Okay I sat down to reread the EA/NE interaction inbetween chaos.
Finally got my head set an my instinct in place. Although I don't like how at the end of day 1 EA defends NE. I believe that is the only thing that bothered me. I felt that his push on Oso over NE or even MW was weak. However EA pushes through more in a case. He poked, prodded and even got what I usually feel is a town move accepting of how he behaved in the game instead of talking circles like I have seen scum do.
I think if EA was scum he had balls of steel and I don't get that from reading his post. Plus I notice EA pushed more on NE during the day then anyone else. I know scum buss, I just don't get that impression. The case, the push on NE and although I disagreed with his Oso read it reads as someone who is looking through and scum hunting.

[farside22]

Next up is Maxous.

He found NE town day one other then that he said nothing to or about NE during day 1. I usually see either light interaction or no interaction with scum buddies. Some scum are bad about bussing and sometimes they almost type a sort of akward exchange that looks like they are questioning their buddy but really is for town points, or they avoid them if they don't want to create any link.

Day 2 is more of a doozy.
Here Maxous waits for NE thinking the votes are too quick.

Let Neccessary Evil respond at least.
Those votes are too quick.

Apart from that, not much to discuss.The town decides to lynch NE or not at this stage. Discussing other suspects would be pointless until that is decided.

Here he has tries to dirty TS a bit, but then saying he didn't see TS scum fake claiming do to the timing.

Twistedspoon is at L-2

Going into WIFOM yes, but I'm having serious trouble beleiving that a mafia who claimed a one-shot cop would fake a guilty result on town. That makes little sense, one mislynch of the target and the mafia player is screwed. Good mafia play does not involve a trade off between town and mafia players. It would of made tons of more sense to clear one single town player than to trade off.
The only scenario I see TS being mafia is if NE is mafia as well. They decided to bus in an attempt to clear TS. Seems a bit risky but plausible.

Also when considering wheter or not TS is mafia you have to take his reaction to Ender's claim. Did he decide to fake a one-shot cop claim right after Ender-claimed with this reaction? Maybe, but it would of had to be quite off the cuff and quick thinking to breadcrumb the role, unless he has a one-shot mafia ability. And if he was mafia why ask if it was day or night? That makes sense if TS is legit because he would be confused because Ender that claimed the same role as him.
No offence to Twistedspoon but it would be serious quick thinking to do this in the next post

2 minutes

after Ender's claim.


I know TS and NE suspected each-other on day 1 and voted accordingly so I will take more of a look at that.

By the way I never saw any feed back on if or what he took of NE/TS after.

hmmmmm
Rhinox did you ever answer this question from Max?

@Farside and Rhinox: Why did the two of you instantly beleive the result from Twistedspoon? As far as I remember he was on both of your suspect lists.

[farside22]

Maxous: Why are you questing about TS when you were the one pointing out the timing of his claim? Are you suspicious of him? If so why defend him yesterday? If not what is the point of your questions then?

[farside22]

Farside: what was your town-tell on M=W on D1, and what happened to it?

I thought MW was soft claiming a PR in one of his comments. It was how he answered and he said to Klaz here

It was why I ignored most of what was said about MW. Then as it was clear 3 people were up and the day was close to an end I reevaluated MW.

[farside22]

Questions to Rhinox:

What changed your mind from this post

I'm just slightly reluctant though. We've already outed 2 PRs today. I don't want a 3rd claim unless you guys think It's absolutely necessary that I do

Then I shall willingly do so

lol. I don't care what your claim is now. This post is scummy as hell. You're scum and I want you lynched regardless of your claim.

and this thought

ugh, I need to reread and figure out who my suspects are. Someone asked for a top 3, I don't have that right now. I'm not going to just throw names out as suspects without good reasons.

I was REALLY hoping Javert was gambiting, and we'd have an alive, confirmed town ender right now based on his reaction to being fake day-killed. As it stands, unless all of our PRs are now outed and scum have a RB and a GF, I'm suspicious of 2 1-shot cops in addition to a day vig. Think about it, if they aren't forced to claim D1, typical scenario would be they could claim results tomorrow, and they'd be 4 confirmed town. If the day vig is also town, they could take out a guilty result on D2, or the scummiest player without ending the day and progressing to night. That seems like a lot of power and a lot of cleared players potentially by day 2.

To day 2 believe TS and pushing for NE?

Maxous: I just reread TS in iso. I would like you to explain why or what about him you read as town as I don't see it.

I believe TS is scummy. I reread, and reread and I thought about it.
Here is my conclusion

Twistedspoon - 1 shot cop - comes off very scummy. His vote on NE originally was

indeed, NE has gone under the radar for too long

I'm fine with this wagon. My vote on Javert is utterly redundant anyways now that his wagon is gone and he's claimed :/

VOTE: NE

When questioned about his vote:

@TS: Again..why did you vote Neccessary Evil? Why is he mafia?

well it was mostly a pressure vote. Saying so would kinda defeat the purpose of it though. That and I haven't seen to much towness from him

After with some questions but no real push he states the following

I am convinced by the breadcrumb
Oso is still a null read to me though

NE is already my vote, so I'm cool with keeping it on him (for now at least)

I was slightly surprised when you claimed masons though. I had (wrongly)assumed all PRs were 1-shot by now :/

prosaurus and Oso are wildcards for me today. I'll give them a pass
The masons are forever unlynchable until proven otherwise
Javert gets a pass for the unlikelihood of a scum day vig in a mini normal. However I want to see him post again
NE and MW are the only remainders that i don't have town reads on. I'll live with one of their lynches today. I might later switch to him if his lynch becomes more feasible, but I'll stick with NE for the timebeing

None of this = a case. I never see a reason from TS on why he found NE scum. Rereading him I'm starting to believe scum bussing his scum buddy for town credit more and more.

vote: Twistedspoon

I believe looking at Maxous/Rhinox one of them to be scum with TS.

[farside22]

Still here... Still dunno what to say.
Anyone got questions to ask me, or something they want my opinion on?

Who do you find the scummiest and why?

[farside22]

@Farside: originally it was just a pressure vote on NE, but his reaction to it confirmed my suspicions more to myself. Then I let my investigation do the talking

What reaction? I mean really nothing you said pointed to a reason. It was like oh I like my vote just fine.
Then day 2 low and behold you have a guilty read on someone you barely had a case on. I find that fishy.

[farside22]

So I did some meta research on TS because I find his play the most scummy. I had to wonder if he was a VI or scum.
I noticed in his early games, which to say the least fit confusion and some seriously bad plays to later as he has played games he made cases and looked into things. So I don't believe TS is a VI reading his games.
TS: Please explain why you never made a case against NE, when I see clearly in your later games that you have made cases on people, prodded people and made points that a severely lacking in this game.

[farside22]

I can't believe I have to make a case on a player who's already been lynched ¬_¬

can't we just say I suspected him on gut, lurking or PoE?

It didn't matter to me ehy I suspected him when I submitted my investigation, but the fact that I did suspect him

What's your case on me then?

[farside22]

I'm still waiting for Maxous to explain his town read of TS and TS to actually make a case.

[farside22]

We have 3 days. I just looked and noted that Maxous was plenty active yesterday but avoiding this game.
I know I'm town and a no lynch doesn't help. I'm pretty certain TS is scum. He's gone too and posting elsewhere.

unvote:
vote: Maxous

[farside22]

Just a townie here. I'm sure the claim will have me lynched.

I also see that TS totally missed my case on him and didn't make a case on me.

[farside22]

does anyone object if I try some VCA?

I just used Rhinox post here
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p3014523

To get an idea of the VCA.

[farside22]

UNVOTE:
I now want a Maxous or LL lynch more than I do a farside lynch.

I'm sorry I'm a bit behind. Is there a reason you find LL scummy?

[farside22]

I just got home from a long day at the faire ground. i really can't see LL/EA scum. EA's attitude really seemed geniune to me. The snarky comments, to the pushes he felt was scum. Push before his replacement, pushing for NE to be lynched. I don't see scum doing that.

I'm good with Maxous lynch.

[farside22]

Well dup if we do decide to lynch today and this should be mylo as 3 scum in a 13 player game is pretty normal.
I was thinking of mass claim, however a part of me thinks no, if there is a doctor and we mislynch then it helps the scum for the win.

.....


I would rather not out a possible doctor in the game and hope that we lynch correctly today then do a mass claim.

[farside22]

mod: My computer at home is currently having monitor problems. I may at one point inexplicably disappear for a few days. We should get this fixed soon.

Noted. Thanks for telling me.

[farside22]

As I said today already I see a mass claiming helping scum more then town. If someone had info they should spill it. If there is a doctor mums the word.
If a doctor is in the game and we mislynch scum will just kill the doctor for the win.
That is if their is a doctor and if we mislynch.

TS: Your not making any sense here. Your WIFOM the death of Rhinox and basing that on Pro being a newb, wouldn't a scum buddy be more aware?

[farside22]

Farside: is TS still your number one suspect? What do you think the likely pairing is?

My problem with TS is day 1. I can't shake that feeling. Problem is there is no one I really see being scum with him.
I do need to do a reread and I called in sick today. If I feel better later today I'm going to try and get through a reread and determine what I can of each person.

[farside22]

LL: Who are you scum suspects currently?
Same question to Pro.

The one person I find the most town in this game is the dup/oso, with obv town Quilly.

I have 3 people I'm looking into that means and something I recall stuck in my craw.

[farside22]

NE: push early on day 1 on Oso then fallowing off it without much reason. Dup's questions on day 2 of TS and not following an easy wagon and finally I know I'm town, he could have pushed for my lynch day 3 and follow up with maxous/TS theory today without much debate.

All the above make dup/oso town in my eyes

[farside22]

@LL I have nothing to say because I don't know what I should say. I say massclaim is good because this is MyLo, we could no lynch and do it toMorrow though. I voted farside cos they were scummiest and nothing was happening.

@FS You and Locke. You mainly from PoE, and I didn't like EA's play and I feel that LL is scum.

Why? What about me or LL do you find scummy?
From what I saw yesterday all you did was follow others with no real POV of your own.

[farside22]

LL: Why did you ask Dup and myself who was scum with TS if we suspect him? You suspected him yourself it seems and didn't answer your own question.

[farside22]

Quilly: Do you think a nl will give any info at this point?

I'm not sure what to think of LL's latest post. It confuses me because I started to think LL/TS combo based on day play from EA and him holding onto the wagon on NE like I would expect scum to do if there was a plan to bus.

[farside22]

LL: The problem I have is that you think Dup is scum with TS and I just don't see that. I mean why not vote for me yesterday. Why look at my meta and make points on why he see's me as town. I don't see scum going to that much trouble. He could have easily road that wave of my lynch and no one would have thought differently of him.


As for TS push on Pro today, it could be TS bussing a partner for town cred. The whole WIFOM on the night kill feels off to me.

In short I still favor TS scum but I still feel Dup is more town then either LL or Pro at this point.

[farside22]

mod: I will be on Vacation with no computer access this coming weekend. (Memorial Day weekend) Should be back Monday night but put me on Vacation till Tuesday just in case.

[farside22]

Farside: what odds does it make to Duplicity whether they pushed yours or Maxous' lynch? Scum couldn't have won yesterday anyway. Are you saying that scum don't think of reasons not to lynch people? To give one particularly pertinent hypothetical, if the Duplicity slot is town, why did NE produce a townread on Oso during D1 when he could have easily maintained him as a suspect? I'm certainly not sold on a TS-Dup scumteam, but I think your reason for doubting Dup-scum is fairly weak.

Giving a town read to another player is common scum tactic, do I even need to mention WC's play in American God's and giving town reads on people. However look at what he said in comparison to Dup's. WC was all about saying gut. Dup is giving examples. Have you ever seen scum actually give examples of why they find someone town? I sure haven't. Plus mislynch me yesterday and he still could give a Max/TS combo today. Why fight against one after thinking I was scum to saying I'm town. I typically see scum stay consistent, because inconsistency gets you caught and questioned. I don't see how this is weak reasoning.

[farside22]

Pro: I already stated who my 3 suspects are but if it helps.

Pro
Locke
Twisted

Quilly

mason confirmed town

Dup

town read

farside

Me

[farside22]

Farside: scum do that all the time. I've done that as scum; hell, I even did it in American Gods mafia by giving reasons why I found both you and GG town, so it's pretty obvious why I think it's a weak tell. I do agree with you about the consistency, though. Something that's really making me doubt Pro right now is the choice of targets in the context of the NK. Thoughts on this?

Night kills are WIFOM. Lets not forget how WC killed Lmp in American God's to cause confusion between Me and GG. I try after that game especially not to read too much into them.

I have a townread on you; I think you've been more actively scumhunting and analysing than most players in the game and I find you more pro-town than Farside, and certainly than TS and Prosaurus, although the lack of input today (and yes, I know this is a hydra issue) diminishes that a little. I'm a little dubious about that post I stated from Oso but other than that, pretty town.

Didn't you just say you had Dup/TS scum team, what changed and why?

[farside22]

LL: I have seen scum use kills to make others look guilty, I have been lynch before do to a NK in my time. I have seen scum try to cause confusion ala American God's. I have seen scum kill confirmed town for obv reason's. When you look into the NK it's in my view in favor of the scum team and helps them more then the town.

Also your response doesn't explain why you believed TS/Dup scum team and now your saying you see him town.

[farside22]

Heh. I reckon what's happening with the night kill is LL/FS (or maybe only one of them) has done this NK so they can say scum are trying to frame them. If it's only one of them it's good for scum because then a townie will be lynched if they're caught.

You do realize that TS is pointing to you as scum for the kill and LS is the one saying it was a frame.
Just out of curiosity why did you not notice this or comment on TS's WIFOM of the death of Rhinox against you?

[farside22]

That being I have a slight memory of Farside stating she disagreed with the idea of bussing however I've been unable to locate it.

no. Not just no but hell no. I know scum bus, hell I stated in our previous game how much I expect scum to bus as I do it myself when I am scum.

The topic of LL/me scum team is laughable. Not only because I know I am town, but Dup's point about EA calling me out is not something scum would do. I think I recall Rhinox pointing that out the day it happened.
TS calling it a new dimension for scum to bus is so outside something I can't even imagine. There is no advantage, especially on day 1.

I'm more then comfortable with TS lynch

vote: TS

Quilly: Any other thoughts you have would be great.

[farside22]

I'm going to:

Unvote

while I think about some stuff.

Quilford: if you think Farside is the common denominator, vote for Farside.

Setting up here for another quick hammer mislynch for a scum win, ala American God's?

[farside22]

Quilford: here's the thing. The more I read Twisted the worse he looks. He doesn't even look like he genuinely suspects NE on D1. Look what he says when he hops on that wagon:

indeed, NE has gone under the radar for too long

I'm fine with this wagon. My vote on Javert is utterly redundant anyways now that his wagon is gone and he's claimed :/

VOTE: NE

Then after that, where's the scumhunting? He doesn't attack NE, he barely even questions him. It's all for show. NE is his top suspect without any actual suspicion. If there's a clearer indication of a bus than that, I don't know what it is. I see where you're coming from with the D2 interactions and it's why I've unvoted to think about this some more, but if we put that aside for a second, can you honestly tell me if there's anything else in TS's play that points to him being town? I could really go on a whole lot longer with examples of things that look disingenuous and scummy, but I'd like your unbiased perspective on this so you can tell me I'm not mad.

I mentioned this on day 3. Why didn't you say anything about it then?

[farside22]

Sorry for the lack of post. I had many things come up at home. I will not have time to respond today and will get back to this after I return from my trip.

Mod: Just a reminder I will be out till Tuesday

Noted. Have fun.

[farside22]

Yeah, because this situation is exactly the same as American Gods. Do you think I'm scum with TS? Do you have a case on me? Is anything here reminiscent of my play there?

I do believe you to be more likely scum with TS. Pro would be a second thought as scum team.
I have a few issues since NE flipped scum.

1) EA's defense of NE day 1.
2) EA sitting on the vote on NE I could see as scum knowing his scum buddy going down and pushing the lynch.
3) Your lack of comments toward TS till today. You said nothing about him yesterday but are willing to lynch him today, which throws off some of what I felt yesterday but would not surprise me in the least to see scum do.

[farside22]

2. Anyone pushing a TS-me scumteam: do you really think that EA was bussing TS D1?

Do you think TS was bussing NE all day 1?

[farside22]

Farside, I wasn't kidding incase the first post is skimmed, I do need more content from you.

You know your first request was just after midnight my time.

Anyways. I lean more on TS scum for reason's I stated previously. If I need to I will put them all in a post when I get home from work today.
LL is who I suspect as TS's scum buddy. It is more PoE I realize as I have a strong town read on you and I didn't like LL calling you scum with TS then switching to calling you town. It's that inconsistency that has LL as well as my Number 2.
Pro would be a weak #3. Nothing screams town. He's not really pushing a case it could be newb town or scum just trying to ride along looking confused.

[farside22]

@farside: So do you think I'm bussing too.

I already said day 3 that your stance on NE was not even a reason. I even had the same quotes that Quilford just posted on your entire "case" on NE was. It wasn't a case in even the remote possible sense of the term.
Sitting on a vote without really presenting a case or reason sure as shit looks like scum bussing.

[farside22]

So I say FS is scum, it's almost guaranteed. Then it's also close to being guaranteed for TS or LL scum.

Honestly your case is all PoE then anything else. I have given numerous reason's day three why I find TS scum. Nothing has changed my view. Seeing people repeat what I said yesterday is just frustrating.

[farside22]

God damn that is the second time I almost got lynched as town for a scum win
You F*&ing people don't want to listen to me day 3..........grrrrrrrrrr

*mutters about lack of time*

[farside22]

You F*&ing people don't want to listen to me day 3..........grrrrrrrrrr

Very much not true. I wanted TS lynched D3, G just made me compromise with a Maxous lynch and I somehow crumbled and compromised with him again today. Now that you're here though mind placing your vote on TS considering he scum-claimed?

I was already voting him. Quil hammered.

[farside22]

Dup there is no way I can see town lossing at this point.
I know I'm town. You didn't hammer me with TS's opps moment, which I call confirmed town with you. Quil is Mason confirmed town with Juls.
Only 2 unconfirmed in my mind is Pro's and LL. I lean more on LL.

[farside22]

I'm going to explain why LL is scum tomorrow.

Off the top of my head without looking at post:

1) EA saying he found NE town day 1 and pushing at Oso
2) EA riding the TS claim without pause. Since now we know that TS is scum I can see scum having a discussion about bussing and EA using TS claim to push the case to look town
3) LL not commenting on TS till day 4. Ignores everything I said day 4 about TS then uses the same comments I made day 5.
4) inconsistent read on Dup day 4. Calls Dup scum with TS then switches when he realizes he has no case and see's no one else see's Dup as scum.

More tomorrow when I don't feel so brain dead.

[farside22]

I can agree that it is possible that it was an attempted gambit however I do believe he is an awful scum player and therefore find the likelyhood of him pulling that gambit very low. The post prior to his vote and slip was made by Gorilla and essentially stated his disagreement with a TS scum-read, so what motivation does TS as scum have to confirm himself as scum when there's a reasonable chance he wouldn't get lynched throughout the game?

This ^

I was about to be lynched. There is no reason for scum to out themself.

What I meant by #3 point I made by the way (see this is why being tired is bad because I even had the days mixed up) is that LL didn't have much to say about TS on Day 3, but then pushes a case on day 4. Using comments I had already made on TS day 3.

In regards to LL. I asked him bluntly who he say scum with TS. This is what he stated

Farside: honestly, I suspect TS a lot more having reviewed NE's ISO, which is why I didn't really cover it at the time. I would have to say Duplicity's slot makes most sense as a buddy for me, particularly the Oso part. Read the post where he puts TS at effective L-1 (ISO 33). The tone is almost 'hey, you're not doing anything, I've got no choice but to call you scum'. I find Prosaurus' dearth of scumhunting to be scummier, but I'm having a hard time telling if he's just a newbie or he's playing the newbie card. Regardless, he seems like a less likely buddy.

Then suddenly it chances when I discuss my views on why I see Dup town he states:

I'm certainly not sold on a TS-Dup scumteam, but I think your reason for doubting Dup-scum is fairly weak.

Then finally

I have a townread on you; I think you've been more actively scumhunting and analysing than most players in the game and I find you more pro-town than Farside, and certainly than TS and Prosaurus, although the lack of input today (and yes, I know this is a hydra issue) diminishes that a little. I'm a little dubious about that post I stated from Oso but other than that, pretty town.

When I asked LL what changed and why the town read:

I have a townread on Duplicity based on their play. Being able to believe a TS/Dup team was based on Oso and not Duplicity. Can I see them as TS and NE's buddy? Yes. Do I want to lynch them before TS? No. I do not have a definitive answer as to who I think is the scumteam right now. Once I've reread everything and tried a few more combinations in detail then I might be able to give you a better answer.

This is from the same person who called my reasoning weak.


LL: You want to point to me the posts you made day 3 that should you were suspicious of TS.

[farside22]

LL: I know reads change, but I asked you who and your read went from Dup to dup town in the span of that day.
You also know that scum tend to kiss ass of the town and interact with them, not just to create the WIFOM for town to be paranoid by, but so that player thinks they are town.
It's also why I'm usually paranoid when a player starts to buddy me, which I got from TS/Oso interaction.

I'm sorry to one and all this may take me an extra day to put my points together. I will try and get online tomorrow, but my husband received some bad news and he needs me. There is a possibility I may not be able to get everything for the next 2 days.

[farside22]

dup and pro: Is there any reason either of you have not put for a case on anyone?
I'm looking a pro more on this.

Dup I still have a town read on you but your lack of effort today and just waiting in the wings is very off setting for me.

I did look into NE just to see if he had anything to say or comment and the only person he really said anything about was Oso and it was really just one of many BW he followed along with. I see now how he just took on what ever wagon or I should say wherever the wind blew looking in retrospect.

[farside22]

Looking at a few things in the game that I find myself question.

TS comments about Pro on day 4 looks horribly WIFOM. I believe he was trying to create a mislynch.
It doesn't make sense for scum to push on their scum buddy in MLLO.

My biggest problem with Pro is how he ignores TS. Nor does he say anything about NE on day 1.

However day 2 I try to say this nicely, if Pro was scum then why did he debate wether NE was scum with the claim from TS.
That makes no sense. Obviously with TS claim and flipping scum it looks in my view that the scum team had a plan and that scum would have road that wave. Pro didn't do that and discussed the problems.
God he doesn't even really take too much of a stand except to say

Ok. I think NE is scum. He's too aggressive and stuff. Er... Your role makes sense with the other roles (2 1-Shot cops instead of 1 normal cop) and with your posts. I'm not voting because that'd be a hammer, and Dupicity has requested for no one to hammer yet.

Why he didn't vote NE at this point.

Reading PRO I would swear he has done nothing that screams town. He doesn't mention TS or NE and then votes for me saying it's PoE without saying why he had the reads he did on Dup.


I feel like the 2 plus's on Pro is how he didn't ride the NE wave. I don't see why scum who had a plan would dance around and not vote NE. And TS pushing a very weak WIFOM case on Pro.

The worse part of pro is that he hasn't really put a case forth and seems to be floating by, which is driving me crazy.

I go back and forth on Pro because he action don't = town, but they don't = scum partners with TS/NE either. His play day 2 with the claim makes no sense as scum.

[farside22]

I don't particulary understand your doubting or suspicion towards. Putting aside his interactions with Twisted which make him near-obvious town his insistance that Locke isn't scum at the start of the day doesn't exactly make sense as scum. He would know that his only way at winning would be by us msylnching and ruling out Locke leaves his only msylnch option to be us someone that he and the rest of the room had stated a town-read on and unwillingness to lynch.

I understand the TS connection. The rest of what you saying here is a bit confusing to me.
Also I get paranoid and feel the need to reevaluate things. I never feel things are clear cut.

[farside22]

Ah.
I can't say i agree with you. He is very much calling you town yesterday. He even stated today

Yeah, I just thought of a problem.
FS is almost confirmed town from what TS did, but so is LL.
So who's scum? This almost makes me think TS did it on purpose.

This. Big problem. Does it mean Dup is scum? Cos I have a town read on him...
Looking forward to your guy's cases.

If he changed his mind today, that would be more scummy and would garner suspicion towards him.

Also he stated he was confused and thought LL was at L-1. I pretty much sense his confusion and getting things mixed up like that would be null for me. I have seen scum fake confusion so call me ubber paranoid.
The only thing that makes me lean town on Pro is the comments from TS yesterday about Pro and his weak push on him with the WIFOM.

[farside22]

Sorry guys, not been able to get on and give this any time for a while. Will respond to points and get to my D2 review tonight, hopefully.

Same here. I hope I can get some time in the next 2 days.

[farside22]

I started an ISO just on LL today.
I never realized how badly things can look if you copy and paste from MS to a note pad. A few things I had to go back and check so this is not finished yet.

Post #4 » Thu May 05, 2011 5:52 am

Duplicity: what is it that makes you think NE/TS weren't bussing D1?

Prosaurus: have you read a scum QT from any of your previous games?

If people are still considering massclaim I say we definitely shouldn't do it. I don't see how it could help town more than scum at this stage.

During this post, LL was going after Max. I find this question to Dup odd as before this LL never stated any suspicion towards TS. Why ask the question? Did you think TS/Max scum team? If so why didn't you say as much?



LL: What was the point to ISO post #9?


LL: bring up TS role claim

I guess it's plausible. TS's flip would then confirm NE as scum, though, so the scum would effectively be conceding that they'd lose a member one way or another. My other issue with that is 2 1-shot cops and a mason pair is pretty powerful (if I remember rightly the stats indicate that vigs don't actually increase town's win chances, but I might be wrong). Either way, you've got to be thinking that any scumteam would have at least a couple of PRs to counteract those. I'd expect a Godfather with the two cops, so what else is there if not a blocker? If there was a Framer they just would have made NE show up as innocent. The only other thing I could see to plausibly counteract town's power is a rolecop so that the scum could find the PRs, and that makes me feel a whole lot worse about TS.

What I don't understand about LL if he truly feels this way, why didn't he push the point on TS further?



LL: vote on TS day 4 is horrible weak:

Yeah, you're just plain lying about your thought process now. You wouldn't 'vaguely remember' that Farside claimed VT if you KNEW she had already claimed and were deliberately waiting for massclaim to see if she claimed something else. I think that's enough for me to:

Vote: Twistedspoon

All the analysis he stated he was looking into and questioning and that is the best reason to vote for TS?

1. NE was BY FAR your most plausible investigation target. Had I been in the game at that stage, I would have been all over you for not investigating NE because it would have been totally inconsistent with your suspicions D1.



2. You needed a result to make your ability convincing, and a guilty result was by far the most likely to convince the town that your role was legit. An innocent or a roleblock result would have done little to convince your doubters that you were town. A guilty had a far better chance of doing that.



3. Whichever one of you/NE got lynched, the other would have a huge boost in surviving to endgame, for precisely the reason that you, and other players, have repeatedly stated: why would you bus?



4. Getting an innocent on your buddy would be incredibly dangerous, especially with both Javert and Quilford still alive at that stage. Unless you successfully talked town into a couple more mislynches with a limited suspect pool as it was, chances are that PoE would have led people into looking at you or your buddy, and once one is suspected, you're both suspected. I don't know that I've ever seen scum claim innocent on other scum; the risk of two guaranteed scum lynches if one of you gets caught far outweighs the reward.



Plus you still haven't explained your contradictory attitude towards Farside's claim. When I asked the question about Quilford's list, did you already know that Farside had claimed or not?

None of which was brought to attention the day before.

several points from NE's ISO stand out to me as the actions of a buddy, particularly that quote about Klazam

Again LL did an ISO and never stated anything of those actions about TS.



Then when LL think hey maybe I can mislynch, he states the following:

I'm going to:

Unvote while I think about some stuff.

Quilford: if you think Farside is the common denominator, vote for Farside.

I don't like the push on me. After seeing TS thinking he hammered this does indeed feel like a deliberate attempt to mislynch.

So at this point of the ISO I didn't like the weak reasoning from LL, then bringing up points already stated from others. I also did not like the unvote from TS to a slight push and easy vote later on me.

Still need to finish ISO and read of EA.

[farside22]

Basically Dup what you are saying about LL I pointed out and noticed when he regards TS. He changed his reads on you, saying he found you to be scum with TS do to Oso interaction, then changes to slowly but surely not seeing it. I feel like he did this weak push on you at the beginning, but when he saw no one agreed he switched to calling you town.
I also see a big push on TS day 4, which throws me off. I ask myself a dozen times would scum push for a lynch, but then he unvotes after all that pushing, it no sense as town. I know I feel strongly about someone I ask others their view, but still call the person scum. I found the case on TS really weak and I didn't see anything in the beginning using the ISO's he claimed to have read. Then he uses the same comments already made by others.

[farside22]

I felt reading LL he changed his mind more often then leaving options open.

Joining in the TS-is-scum wagon makes perfect sense for him to do in that position as scum, it gains him town-cred and puts him further into the game where he can attempt to make use of that

I was thinking about that too. By bussing his scum buddy in MyLo it gives him town cred for a scum win.

[farside22]

I believe in my Dup town read. Honestly if Dup is scum I would be shocked. He/Oso have been town read since day 1. I also believe TS was buddying Oso, as scum tend to do when they know someone in the game.

LL: Why did you vote Max right out of the game if you didn't read the game? Did you do an Iso, just see who flipped scum at the time? How did you come to the conclusion and why answer a question without having all the information in front of you?
Dup beat me to some other questions.

Pro: Do you have anything you wish to say, any doubts, anything that you have taken or read?

[farside22]

Just when I felt good with my view on Dup and Pro. I see LL's post and review..........
I keep thinking about our last game LL. You didn't go out of your way like this. I do remember the last time I had even a remote thought you were reading town to me that you would end up being scum.

I need to think about this better. I'm going to be gone for the next 2 days (all Sunday and maybe a shot to come on Monday, but my game I'm modding will be most likely starting that day).

I would like LL to finish his thoughts because as I said the only thing that makes no sense is TS's push and WIFOM about Pro yesterday.

[farside22]

I'm not going to be on later. I looked at Pro's newbie game. At first read I thought okay this guy talked more, but as I read it more indepth it pretty much was what was in this game. He didn't really say much in the newbie game I looked into.
I can't forsee TS trying to do a weak bus on Pro when there is no reason to.

vote: LL

[farside22]

I have a feeling the way things are going today is going to end in a no lynch.
LL: Why have you not placed a vote on Pro at his point if he is your strongest scum read? What is your concern that is holding you back?

I'm probably going to die tonight so here is my last minute thoughts.


Dup - obvious town
Pro - the weak push for TS makes no sense for scum in MyLo. Using the WIFOM night kill all looks like a weak attempt to push a mislynch from TS
LL - Scum

[farside22]

@LL Yea, I probably would have hammered if I had gotten on.

Anyways, NK was predictable. It changes nothing for me.

Pro: Why would you have hammered LL?

LL: I honestly thought I would be killed because TS trying to lynch me for the win.

Pro: I would like you views on why you believe LL is scum.
LL: Can you link the game you were refering to Pro. I want to see if it was the same, I only had time to look at one game I saw was over.

[farside22]

mod: V/LA this weekend, will be back Monday

Noted.

I will have to look at that link when I get back.

[farside22]

I'm back and I'm going to review a few things.
I think the thing that tears my hair apart the most with Pro is when he post about LL or myself it always sounds wishy washy. He comes up with reasons that read as more of POE then just sits there.
Part of me feels like it's scum waiting for someone to vote without taking a stand.

LL: Do you have a game you replaced in as town or scum or both if you have links to them.

[farside22]

Just looked at Pro from the link that LL provide.
Pro: Is there any reason you have had a real point on LL or myself that didn't come from POE or anything indepth this game?

LL: At one point in the game you called Pro spectacular useless town (1) what changed your view and (2) why didn't you look into his meta earlier?

[farside22]

I woulda hammer because I didn't see you being scum. Still don't.
I say LL is scum because;
a) I don't think you're scum
b) I don't remember anything that would make him town (Unlike you)
c) Never liked EA
d) Gut feeling

Apart from these, if they count, no.
Besides, if anyone's making a vote without backing it's me. And I'm going to try and avoid that.

Well I don't think that TS would do the "I win?" thing on a scumbuddy... I dunno, it might all be WIFOM.

This ^ comes off as wishy washy despite your thoughts on EA/LL. I sense reading yesterday the same thing. Where you just I don't know if it's uncertainty or fence sitting.

[farside22]

Reading your scum game vs town game I'm starting to think I was write in American God when I called you town and knowing that I read you typically as scummy that probably means you were scum that game. Looking at the 2 links you gave me what I found interesting was how as town that you just ran with what you say and voted and didn't go into a lot of details on your findings. Your reasons were why repeat what others say.
scum game lots of details. You posted thoughts on certain post and voted at the time based on those reads.
Looking at your game here looks more like the town link you gave me.

Is there a reason you jump into a game as a replacement and don't really review or why you do review? Is is decided based on the role you are given?

[farside22]

I've been pondering this game and reading the meta and going back and forth.
On paper most of what Pro has done felt VI'ish. Here we are in LyLo and he just made minor points without really giving hard facts. I keep going back to TS and seeing what is the point of scum trying to lynch his scum buddy in MyLo.

LL: whether you like it or not I find your inconsistent reads scummy. Its not that I don't expect people to change there views on players, its when they do it or what they say that made them change their views. Calling Dup scum with TS and in a short span calling him town. I feel like you did this based on the conversation going on and see that no one agrees so you switched it to the more favorable person that most were talking about as scum.

I'm going to take a step back and on Saturday when I have actual time to sit down. I will reread a few things (I know in 2 hours even I can't read the whole game) and have my final thoughts down.

[farside22]

VOTE: Locke Lamora

[farside22]

I have never been so happy not to have to carry though with reading on Saturday. I was trying damn hard to find a way not to flip/flop on pro without looking scummy.

Seriously Pro you looked far worse then LL then only town point I could find was the VIish feel and TS weak reasoning to vote you that day.

[farside22]

This is the part where Twistedspoon comes in and gloats >_>

Yeah it was his game for sure. He was the one that did that fake hammer. I didn't even know he was going to do it.
The cop claim was shocking and I was more shocked when people thought it was true.
I really didn't want TS to bus NE, that was his call and I just conceded. I guess he was more right then me.

[farside22]

Also, in the Mafia QT, farside says I was

ruining

her chances of winning. How the heck? I'd say I was helping you.

I wanted to win a day earlier.

No seriously it was that you were not online and I had to go thru another day of trying to convince people LL or you were scum. It was exhausting to say the least.
Also the mod sent me a PM at one point that I saved to share here.

Remind me in my games with you, to push for a lynch on you regardless of rather or not you're scum. Because you're playing one heck of a scum in town's clothing card in Mafia 1147, and you've made me have to recheck to make sure you're scum partners with Twisted and Necessary Evil, because with the way you're playing I'd have pegged you as town. Just wanted to encourage you with this!

I actually laughed at this because I didn't feel I was doing that well. I give TS all the credit for his gambits. Had it not been for that I think I would have been lynched.

[farside22]

LOL reading the dead QT.
TS looking at the end of this wouldn't you say keeping LL alive was worth it now.
Also killing Dup helps for 2 reason's (1) it makes LL look bad because he was anti LL (2) both Pro and LL thought each other was scum.
I did think about not killing to make Pro look worse (since he wasn't around) but I didn't want the game to stall or a no lynch to happen the next day.

[farside22]

The best advice I can give you Dup is not to under estimate a player. Remember with each game you learn something from the game that helps you in another game that others do the same.
So if someone plays poorly in one game doesn't mean they will play poorly another game. They learned from the game and adapted.
It's something i watch for when I look at meta is how people adapted.