Mini 1180: Game Over

[DarthYoshi]

/confirm.

Vote: Secret Project.

Secrecy is scummy, duh.

*waves at Alduskkel and TWIE*

@Mod

: Which accounts are the hydras? I don't necessarily need to know who the heads are, but I think letting all the players know which accounts are hydras is fair.

[DarthYoshi]

Also, some RQS questions (mostly for my own personal benefit to reference if need be):

What time zone are you in?

How much experience do you have playing mafia (either on or off-site)?

About how active are you usually in a game?

RVS or RQS? Why?

I'm usually on Pacific Daylight Time (GMT-8 +1)

I have about ten games completed @MS. Alduskkel actually modded my first newbie game here. Hopefully I've improved since then....

I'm pretty active. I'll do my best to post every day.

I think both RVS and RQS have their uses, hence why I am using both.

[DarthYoshi]

Thanks, Substrike and earworm.

@Jilynne: A hydra is an account operated by two or more players in a single playerslot.

@Monk: Why did you RVS vote me after the mod said that votes won't count until D1 officially starts?

[DarthYoshi]

@Alex and Ironhead: Same question to monk--why are you voting when the mod hasn't said the votes will count?

I'm not trying to be too attack-ish, but are you saying for RQS, the questions aren't info?

Why are not trying to be "attack-ish?" Don't want to alienate us lest we try to lynch you?

What information related to the game have we gained from knowing timezones, games completed, and projected activity level?

It isn't information that can be used now, it is information that can be used later. Take activity level as an example. Say a player is an active lurker, but if they say so at the beginning, I can be like, "Hey-o, game links please," and if it turns out the player active lurks as town, then it becomes a null tell for me. Like I said at the outset, it is mostly for my personal benefit.

The RVS/RQS question, though, is actually to try to move the game forward. I think how people fall down on that divide is pretty interesting.

[DarthYoshi]

I find it odd you'd call this "personal benefit"

The RVS/RQS question, though, is actually to try to move the game forward.

If you are scum, how would we catch you?

With a net. Or, I'm still working on how to avoid associative tells, so if I had a buddy flip, finding me might not be too hard.

@Alduskkel: If your vote on me was RVS, why are you wagoning me instead of monk? If your vote wasn't RVS, why are you voting me?

Do you prefer to play as town, scum, third party, or no preference? If "third party" please specify what kind of third party.

Town. I find I'm not as good at it, but I tend to enjoy it more because of the lack of constant pressure. Also, why do you prefer playing as maf?

@Elsa: Same question to monk et al: why did you place a vote out before it would count?

Ironhead's post puts way more than weirdalex actually said into his mouth. Trying to paint something as scummy that's totally null.

Can you please elaborate?

[DarthYoshi]

Not liking RVS is obvscum. Lynchlynchlynch

Especially for new players, this is NOT always true.

I want to see this. "I don't feel like typing it up again" isn't an excuse when we were past pregame and people were already posting in pregame anyway, plus you could've just drafted it until someone made you aware that the game started. Methinks it didn't exist.

+1

I don't like how Jilynne says she has a post on Ironhead but it's literally just a thing about the stance on RQS/RVS. And the amount of times she's played the noobcard is insane.

I agree on the first part, but I think newbs playing the newb card is more a newb tell than anything else. Can you explain why it is suspicious?

@Jily--how much mafia experience do you have, and can you provide links if possible to some completed games you've played?

So, I'm thinking Iron/jil team? I personally want to see Iron go first.

First, why are you hunting in terms of scumpairs/teams before there have been any flips yet? This looks like scum trying to appear helpful. Second, why does Iron need to go first if you're putting all this attention on Jily instead?

I don't like these kinds of inconsistencies so early in the game.

FoS: WormyKrew.

It seems odd that Jily couldn't be bothered to write out 5 sentences.
Somewhat serious VOTE: Jilynne1991

How serious a vote is this? Why did you feel the need to point out that it might not be entirely serious? And, why are you just sheeping what TWIE et al's reason is?

This be a scum voting, everyone.

Vote: Weirdalex.

There's two more appeals that get ignored, though. Appeal to Logic and Appeal to Authority.

Let's call it AtL and lynch this scum.

I get appeal to authority, but how is appeal to logic a scumtell?

Anyways, current suspect list:
Weirdalex
WormyKrew
Jily (lower on the list due to noobishness.)

[DarthYoshi]

Here are some random nuggets of

shit

brilliance

to gnaw on...

"IT WAS NEVER PATENTED" was a JOKE. Have you ever heard of one? I didn't actually know what post it was, it was a JOKE.

^^^This be what I was talking about previously. Player says vote in semi-serious, then walks back his rhetoric relating to his vote by saying it is a joke. Your vote ain't a toy, d00d. More weirdalex votes = a happy Sith Lord Dinosaur.

Also, way to keep talking about Jily's softclaim (in all caps no less) while simultaneously finger-pointing at people for talking about it.

Gerhard's Jily vote is terrible because it almost certainly means he hasn't read the pages of ink-vomit devoted to her super-secret-not-so-secret plan, but to me, that's a towntell on the part of Gerhard, since I can't imagine scum would be so reckless with their vote like that. Gerhard, please come back to us with an un-pants-on-head vote.

On a semi-related note, if you still have your vote on Jily (anyone who does), please justify that vote now.

Going to throw a

FoS

in monk's direction. His ISO is bad--he is focused almost entirely on Jily (who oozes "easy lynch"), but in his last post yesterday, concludes that her behavior is null, but doesn't bother to try scumhunting on anyone else. And, after this singular focus on Jily, is nowhere to be found after previously mentioned ink-vomit was expelled onto this thread. He takes Jily's place as my #3 suspect, possibly my #2.

My heart pines away for Alduskkel and flinter. Why aren't they saying more?

@TWIE: Love your Alex vote, but do you have any other suspects? If so, who and why?

[DarthYoshi]

I will be unable to reach a computer until maybe the 5th or possibly sixth, because of a math competition, I will catch up as quickly as possible.

would you replace her on these grounds? Idk. Find some grounds to replace her on. Christ.

Her being a VI isn't an excuse for you to be an an ass to her. She's a kid, for pete's sake. I don't know about you, but I was a serious tool when I was a kid. Yeah, Jily isn't playing well, but this is out-of-bounds.

Anyway, ignoring Ironhead. My vote's on him and staying there for now.

You're going to ignore the player who you are implicitly claiming is your strongest scumread? Huh?!

I wanna say Alduskkel is town but I'll be wary of buddying

So you're fine with risking being seen as buddying up to me by calling me your favorite, but you don't want to risk being seen as buddying up to Alduskkel. Why?

@Alduskkel: You see Gerhard's derp vote on Jily as a scumtell and not a town tell, why?

Semi-serious was the wrong wording for it. More like 'the best suspect I can get for now'

So it was a vote for the sake of having a vote out? Or am I missing something?

[DarthYoshi]

I meant his buddying to me. I'm not gonna think he's town just because he's buddying me.

Thank you for clarifying, evilpacman18.

[DarthYoshi]

I meant his buddying to me. I'm not gonna think he's town just because he's buddying me.

Thank you for clarifying, evilpacman18.

It's frikkin hard to remember when you've never played as a hydra before.

Oh, I know, I've done it too. Just some good-natured ribbing.

[DarthYoshi]

LOLZ, really?

Please tell me you did that for the irony.

[DarthYoshi]

Okay, I gotta ask, why are people so quick all of the sudden to offer full lists of reads?

HEY SCUM, HERE ARE THE HARD TO LYNCH FOLKS!!!!! PLEASE FEEL FREE TO KILL THEM!!!!!

Blarg.

On an unrelated note, monk's reason for voting split is bad.

[DarthYoshi]

1

Slight FoS. You should never have any problem with your reads being public.

2

Do you really think the Mafia go "He was on everyone's town read, let's kill him!"? Also, ear's read list was a catchup post, and I think monk's was too.

3

Now, I'd like to ask you what your reads are.

1-How "slight?" Why do you even feel the need to quantify a FoS?

2-Yeah, I do. It's called, "s/he's got too much towncred to lynch, we're gonna have to NK them."

3-Nope. You have my suspect list (weirdalex, you, and monk), and that should be plenty for now. Check my meta, I usually only give suspect lists rather than full lists when playing as town and/or am catching up. In only one game can I think of was I town and offered a full list.

What's wrong with saying townreads? Are you just afraid that you'll get NKed since you were on both town lists?

No, but nice try with the PR rolefishing there. I'm pretty sure you're scum now. Luckily for you, I think alex is still scummier, so my vote stays.

[DarthYoshi]

Actually, you know what, I do want to see what reaction this gets:

Unovte. Vote: WormyKrew.

[DarthYoshi]

Le sigh. How do I say this without mentioning ongoing games?

Mastin, you should know better than to try to meta me on the basis of my very first MafiaScum game ever.

Also, Mastin, why is monk town to you?

@WormyKrew--yeah, but I was also referring to what reactions others might provide to my vote as well. I especially find it interesting that Mastin thinks I'm his #1 scum, yet our vote is now on the same playslot. I realize I'm not answering your question about providing a full list because, well, I'm not going to do that. You, on the other hand, have done nothing to deny that you were rolefishing in your interaction with me, which reinforces my belief that you = scum.

@Secret Project: I think I dinged WormyKrew for this as well...why are you hunting in terms of a scumteam when no flips have occurred yet?

[DarthYoshi]

@WormyKrew: Your #204. VTs aren't (or shouldn't) be afraid of being NKed, so you asking me if I was afraid of being NKed was basically you asking me if I was a PR. There is literally ZERO motivation for someone who is town-aligned to ask someone that question. You're scum.

[DarthYoshi]

Sorry I didn't have time to post yesterday. I'm still waiting for adequate explanations from the following people on the following issues:

-From WormyKrew on why he/they are rolefishing and scumhunting in terms of a full scumteam so early in D1.
-From Mastin on why I'm scum.
-From monk on his odd ISO pattern. I still feel like monk is trying to slide underneath the game's collective radar.

@Alduskkel--who do you suspect on the WormyKrew wagon, if anyone, and why?

@Ironhead--I need to meta you. Can you provide me links to a recent game you played as town and a recent game you played as scum? Please and thank you!

@Captain Corporal: ISO me. I've been providing reasons why WK is scummy for a while now. The two main reasons I outline in my bulletpoint about him above--rolefishing and unhelpful scumhunting. Also, why are you lamenting hydras in the case of SP and your inability to read them, but you apparently have no problem reading WK as town?

BTW, Corporal's SP vote is OM-to-the-GUS. His reaction is over-the-top relative to what SP was dishing out.

Am I the only one seeing an Alduskkel-WormyKrew scumteam, here?

No, but same as what I told WK--why thinking in pairs before flips? VCAs on D1 are really difficult to interpret. I do think Alduskkel's casting suspicion on the WK wagon ('cept for me) is odd, hence my question to him, but honestly, it isn't like you've been a fount of reasons either, Mastin. Lots of claims with no warrants to back them up.

[DarthYoshi]

Whoops, missed this in my re-read:

Why's that interesting? Do you consider it scummy on Mastin's part? Do you think there's a contradiction there?

Maybe not a contradiction per se, but I find it disconcerting that he came out of the gate with me as his #1 scumread (when literally no one else has me as their #1 right now) w/out explaining why, and then proceeds to switch from me to MY #1, without really explaining why, either. But I'm also learning that Mastin is harder for me to read than I once thought. I want to see how you and him interact some more, I'm not quite sure yet what to make of your suspicions of the WK wagon and his suspicions of you because of your suspicions of the WK wagon, if that makes sense.

PEdit: I'm tired, too.

[DarthYoshi]

I liked Mastin a lot more when he would actually explain his reads, however long it took him to do so.

PEdit: Yes, typically hydras communicate in their own QT outside of the game thread. I personally enjoy hydra-ing, but I know a lot of players here don't like playing in games with 'em.

[DarthYoshi]

#349: Another post where WK basically ignores the rolefishing issue. Or my case on him in general. Lynchity lynch lynch the scum, pleeze.

@Mastin: SRSLY, fewer posts of one-line assertions and fluff and more analysis. It isn't that you're "trying" to explain your reads, you just flat out AREN'T. I have yet to hear a single word as to why I am your #1 scumread, or as to why your vote is on the same wagon as your #1 scumread.

I'm not saying you must go back to massive walls, but WallYou was WAY more helpful than whatever version of you that the mothership replaced WallYou with.

[DarthYoshi]

Not Voting: Wiredalexv, Secret Project

Alex, SP, explain this. Now.

[DarthYoshi]

I'm not sure if we just think alike or what, but DarthYoshi is literally posting everything on my mind.

Hey, I'll take it.

Jedi

Sith mind tricks ftw.

[DarthYoshi]

Not Voting: Wiredalexv, Secret Project

Alex, SP, explain this. Now.

Already did. Not liking your feigned concern for the well-being of the town.

Oh, I read your explanation. I thought it was a really bad reason given that WK wasn't in imminent danger of being quicklynched. Come back with either a vote or a reason that puts the well-being of the town ahead of the well-being of your hydra.

It was not my intention to rolefish at all. I just wanted some insight into what was going on in your head and offered up the first thing that popped in my head.

After you pointed out that what I said was a possible rolefish,

the first thing I wanted to do was to go on with the game as if I hadn't said those words

, since the were subsidiary to the point I was trying to make. I didn't want to dwell too long on them for two reasons: 1-It's really not that important for my scumhunting purposes. It was more of the ramblings on inside of my head. 2-There is a possibility you could be a pr and any more discussion about it would only bring more attention to yourself.

I was willing to just let it slide.

But since you have built the majority of the case against us with this single thing, I feel obligated to defend myself somewhat.

Emphasis mine. How are the bolded parts ever townie reactions to what a player is trying to characterize as "subsidiary" (aka minor) goofups? Townies usually aren't afraid to clarify minor goofups. How does this post come from a townie mentality?

And yes, rolefishing is part of the case, but by no means the whole thing. I'm fine with attention being brought to myself if that's what it takes to lynch scum. I don't need you to look out for my best interests.

[DarthYoshi]

^ Badposting.

I was your "favorite" and now I'm your scumspect? That's a pretty damn quick reversal on the basis of one post that nobody else so far has found all that scummy.

I also like how you, like WK, are basically ignoring the reasons I'm giving for why your actions are suspicious, and instead just attacking me back.

@Weirdalex: A vote not out is a vote not gathering information. So, why again do you not have a vote out if you're waiting on people to give you more material?

[DarthYoshi]

Just some quick, mostly gut-based reactions to the unofficial VC (thanks for posting this, alex):

It's made me realize how little we have heard from TWIE in this game. I can still see AlexScum, but his vote seems particularly stale, and I feel like TWIE's town game is more active than this he slides from neutral to neutral-leaning-scum to me. If this is a precursor to flaking, though, it may go back to neutral.

Ironhead's #449 is the first post of his that I really do like a lot, although I wouldn't be as quick as he seems to be to dismiss the possibility of a mutual bus. I've seen D1 mutual bussing win the entire game for the scum. Ironhead moves from neutral to neutral-leaning-town.

Captain Corporal's need to have approval for placing his vote is somewhat disconcerting. Looks like the scumtell of waiting for townspeople to endorse your ideas. Plus, we're over 450 posts into D1, I think an L-1 at this point is perfectly justifiable.

On the debate over giving out townreads--to clarify, I do NOT oppose giving townreads, I oppose ranking them in lists (ie, most to least townie). If I call three different people townish, scum don't know which of them is my biggest townread, which, for the purposes of their NK, is the critical information.

I still feel like monk and Alduskkel are doing a good job of sliding under peoples' radar. Monk's vote also feels stale-ish.

Now back to your regular "WK is scum, can we lynch him please please please" programming.

PEdit: WTF? Corporal, see what I told Alex--a vote not out is a vote not gathering information. If you feel like you need to figure stuff out and there isn't an urgent need to unvote (ie, L-1), then unvoting actually is one of the worst things you can do, imo.

[DarthYoshi]

Masons and similar roles can chainsaw on day one too, and later in the game, so could, say, a cop with an innocent result. Its a tell for sure, but not until we have seen some flips, whichmeans even more so that we should lynch a player like wormykrew...it would be an informative lynch.

[DarthYoshi]

@Mod: While I generally approve of hydras, and am fine with them in a game's starting lineu letting a hydra replace in is kind of a stretch. Scumhunter should have gone solo in this p,game.

As far as Regfan's initial reads go, I agree with some but not all of them. Notably, he relies on meta to excuse the behaviors of WormyKrew, and to prosecute the cases for Elsa and Alex, but in MY case, he excuses the meta away instead. Can't have it both ways, mate.

As for my drop in activity and quality of presence, if you go through my games played list, you'll see that coincided with me being in LyLo in two other games, and so this game definitely got pushed to the back burner for a little while. Now those other games are over, and though I have some RL events coming up, I should be more dedicated to this game because it is the only one I'm playing in right now.

Also, please link to the Elsa game you alluded to. And you had better come up with a better reason for supporting a monk townread at this point in the game.

[DarthYoshi]

BTW, how exactly does the post you link to prove that Jily is an alt?

[DarthYoshi]

I'm sorry, but I really can't help but wonder if these two are related.

Mastin, your tunnelvision would be a HELL of a lot less frustrating if you would just explain your reads. Every post I'm reading, it's either fluff or "I'm getting around to it." I am more than happy to convince you that I am town, but I can't when all you're doing is sitting there, screaming "He's a witch! Burn him!" without actually saying why. And, do you REALLY think ScumMe would be so dense as to voice my irritation like that?

Blarg.

The funny thing is, all of this is actually convincing me you're town, because I cannot possibly begin to fathom why ScumYou would allow the risk of you playing this poorly.

Also, Yoshi scumslipped. Similar to the WormyKrew one, albeit slightly different and admittedly weaker.

Again, explain.

FWIW, I had two reasons for not liking the new hydra replace-in: first, I had already begun to meta Scumhunter on my own, and was looking at his intro posts in a solo light; while I think entering solo with the understanding made known that it will turn into a hydra (like what WK did) is perfectly fine, this wasn't. Second, I think that players who don't like playing with hydras get screwed when one replaces in--I may not agree with said views on hydras, but I at least understand why they have those views.

DarthYoshi, my apologies if my replacing in was of any inconvience but I jumped at the opportunity to have a proper game with Scumhunter. Let me assure you though we will work towards having our reads be agreed upon so we don't become two different players playing in one slot. The game with Elsa is: Newbie 1103.

Thanks for the link. Still wondering about Jily, why is it now pointless to argue about it?

Since when have you called Secret Project's actions suspicious?

I didn't like that they didn't have their vote out (see also: my ISO, #20 onward). They say they explained why, and I basically said I thought their explanation was lame because it put the hydra before the town.

Also, I don't think you answered this:
Alduskkel wrote:
Darth Yoshi wrote:
Actually, you know what, I do want to see what reaction this gets:

Unovte. Vote: WormyKrew.
Why would you announce that you just want to see his reaction? That completely negates the point of the vote -- if he's scum he can calculate his reaction and it won't be genuine.

Not to you directly, but I said in my ISO #14 to WK that I had also meant in reference to the reaction of the game as a whole. I agree it was very poorly put on my part, it was a spur of the moment change-of-heart from keeping my vote on Alex.

I never said I suspected anyone on the wagon. I just said it was BS. I've said it before, I'll say it again: wrong =/= scummy.

This is bad. I never said you suspected anyone either, I simply asked if you did and why. If you didn't, is it really too much to ask to say that you didn't and move on?

[DarthYoshi]

What's your opinion of Elsa at the current moment?

Pretty neutral for the moment. She's done nothing to convince me she's town, but she's also done nothing to convince me she's scum yet, either. I don't particularly care for her voting pattern (derp vote that didn't count in RVS, voting Gerhard (whose slot I do think is probably town), and unvoting without re-voting), but that has been about it. Hence why I for the game link--I'm hoping that meta will help, but I'll need some time to plow through that game.

[DarthYoshi]

Sending good thoughts your way, Substrike.

After considering Elsa's meta, and her general lack of defense so far (to me, townies tend to be more vigorous, or at least more insulting, in defending themselves against others), she is moving up to #3 (maybe a tie at #2 with Alex) on my scumlist, taking monk's place (since it looks like monk's inactivity was a precursor to him flaking now). Alex's point isn't a bad one, but what I find more disconcerting than the potential scumslip is she is now defending where her vote WOULD have been--except her vote was never there, which I do see as scummy. Town would have put their money where their mouth is.

Vote stays on WK for the time being (in part because I think Elsa's reasoning on WK is bad--scum can absolutely ask about townreads ppl have them on in order to appear even more townish, and WK remains my #1), but I am officially down for an Elsa lynch and will join her wagon if need be to secure a majority.

[DarthYoshi]

V/LA for the weekend.

Will catch up on my return.

[DarthYoshi]

I'm back, and am mildly amused that there is a vig-vote on me. I've skimmed the thread and will re-read again tomorrow and have content for y'all then. For the moment,

Vig: Alex.

I actually think Mastin is pretty much right on the money on his assessment of Alex's standing in this game.

[DarthYoshi]

Okay, catch-up wall incoming…

Elsa’s #535: Why are you pre-emptively casting doubt on your own vote like this? Either you think weakly pushing a mislynch is scummy, or you don’t. You seem overly concerned with how your voting is viewed.

I’m still not getting the side-dish sort of focus on Jily. We’re not lynching her today. It’s that simple. If she is what she says she is, her role is very easily confirmable. If she isn’t what she says she is, we can throw her into death stew later on fairly easily. (Side note, I think her observation about Capt Corporal in #540 is a decent one, especially since Corporal’s response in #542 is all kinds of awful—there’s nothing to push for, mate? Yeah, there is—the lynching of scumz.)

SP’s #550: If by “the unanimous ‘Darth is scum,” you mean you and Mastin, then yeah. What I want to know is why you are so adamant in agreeing with Mastin that I am scum when in that very same post, you’re tearing Mastin a new one for pretty much the same reasons I have been all game—posting craploads of fluff, not explaining anything, etc. Also, what exactly about WK’s recent posts (and I want specific examples) “scream” town to you? Whichever head wrote those words is the head I want answering that question; I don’t care if you two are split on him.

WK’s #554-56 look more like a player attempting to appear helpful than a player who is, you know, actually being helpful.

Mastin’s #559-61: Please explain why you can’t support the Elsa wagon (ie, why is Elsa town?)

WK’s #564: It’s called buddying.

Corporal’s #566: How about actually responding to Mastin’s content as opposed to stating, basically, fluff?

Jily’s #573: Why is Alex leaning town to you?

Alduskkel’s #582: Your response to me was an overreaction or overcompensation, imo.

Ironhead’s #594: How has Alex’s interactions with SP and Elsa demonstrated towniness? (As an aside, I’m fairly convinced that the Alex-Elsa interactions cannot be a bus; I’m thinking that if one flips scum, the other is probtown.) Also, please elaborate your town read on Alduskkel.

Mastin’s #597: First, why are you spoilering absolutely everything now? Second, you came into the game with me as your #1 scumread, but now the only reason I’m scum is PoE? WTF? Also, PoE is at its weakest on D1—it becomes far more useful as the game progresses.

TWIE’s #598 is…eh. Speaking as a participant in Newbie 1100, yes, TWIE was more active on the whole, but he also had moments where he kinda dropped off the radar. This post I see as being far more lengthy than his town-efforts in 1100—basically, he’s using six words a lot when only one or two will do. Which may be a null tell for someone like, say, Mastin, but here, I’m not sure. TWIE stays null for me, but I’m going to be watching him. Soben’s #612 is fairly decent in this regard.

WK’s #620: What, townies can’t disagree with other townies about their respective townreads? For instance, I think Soben is probably town, but I have no capacity to agree with them atm that you’re town.

Ironhead: What do you think of the Soben/Mastin interactions on p25?

That gets me up to p26, where the vig-voting starts and I crawl back out from under my rock. Vote stays on WK, and vig vote stays on Alex (since I think his flip will be pretty informative, in addition to what Mastin says in his vote), but TWIE gets an honorable mention. Though I do have one question--SP, why did you switch your vig vote from me to Alex?

I’ll get to the last couple of pages later. *goes to order pizza*

PEdit: Soben, I disagree. Elsa hasn't been around for a couple of days, so her vote is arguably stale; moreover, if they are scum, they'd have a vested interest in pushing a WK mislynch. Neither seem that interested in it even in their non-voting content.

[DarthYoshi]

Soben’s #670: Fair enough. I still maintain WK is the scummiest player so far, but I can def see how Elsa is scummier than Alex, and all I need is for one of them to flip scum for me to basically clear the other as town, so,

Un-vig vote Alex, vig vote Elsa.

Also, Yoshi, I blatantly disagree eith you on this issue of post #542. I am not required to push. I am required to scumhunt. Which, in post #544, I show I can do WITHOUT pushing. I've seen pushing get the wrong result too many times.

Then I guess I should be asking what “pushing” is to you, and why you think it gets the wrong result, because what I hear you saying is that town shouldn’t be aggressive, which is almost always a losing strategy.

TWIE, your top 3 suspects and reasons for suspecting them. Go.

Elsa is also currently a dead slot due to the painful lurking and deficiency in town play but has more of an option to recover. Play better (in this case this largely means more) and I won't assume you're horrible lurker scum.

Why on earth are you coaching one of your scumreads?

Also, please explain your town read on Capt Corporal. I srsly don’t get why so many players are so convinced this guy is town, he’s done nothing of the sort to convince me of that.

Also, your back and forth with TWIE is making my head hurt. Jus’ sayin’.

I am still confident in my read of Alduskkel -- I thinks his ISO #4, 5, 7, and 13 are townish.

Okay, we’re going to have to do this the long way…what ABOUT his ISOs 4, 5, 7, and 13 seem townish to you?

@SP: Why aren’t we lynching TWIE today again? Also, I’m still waiting for an answer on why you moved your vig vote from me to Alex.

Did I say you were scum? I'm pretty sure I haven't done so once in this game.

Your playslot expressed suspicion of me in your ISO #78, and in your ISO #120 you vig-voted me.

@CaptCorporal: Why aren’t you seeing TWIE scum?

[DarthYoshi]

This is a blatant strawman of my viewpoint. PoE was ONE of the reasons. Not the ONLY reason.

O Rly? If there are other reasons, you aren't giving them. Let me pull the quote that I was replying to, verbatim, from your list of reads in your #597:

7. DarthYoshi <--Scum? Kinda Process of Elimination, one of the main suspects.

Mastin, you have spent the entirety of your involvement in this game loudly proclaiming that I am scum, but aside from alluding to a mythical scumslip that you still have never pointed out, and this PoE material (the weakness of D1 PoE having already been pointed out by me), you haven't said why. Ever. Seriously. Re-read your ISO. I'm not strawmanning you, I'm literally replying to the only evidence you have deigned to offer so far as to my scumminess. If you want to offer more, by all means do. Like I said, I would love to have the chance to convince you that I am indeed town. But until you do so, seriously, Mastin, fuck off.

[DarthYoshi]

Yoshi, I pointed out the scumslip already, and admitted it was weak.

Where? I have gone through your ISO with a fine-toothed comb, and the closest I can find to this is your ISO #52, where you say I scumslipped in a manner similar to WK, but you didn't actually point it out, so there isn't a whole lot I can say about it.

BTW, PoE + an admittedly weak scumslip is the basis for what you were claiming earlier was a #1 scumread? C'mon.

I have other reasons to think you're scum, and am working on explaining it. It's not something which I can say out of the blue,
"Yoshi is scum because of X, Y, and Z."

Believe me, I'd love to. But my mind doesn't work that way. Converting my thought process into more traditional terms like, "Yoshi is scum because of X, Y, and Z." Takes me hours to do, and I have been suffering setback after setback in Real Life hindering me further. I'm working on it. That's really all I can say. Communication is my weakest point. I cannot convey easily what I intend to. If it were that easy, I'd be magnitudes better of a scumhunter. (Refer to my sig--not my job to be convincing, my job to be right.) Knowing Is Half The Battle. Explaining being the other half, and the explaining half, I REALLY suck at.

Mastin, you replaced in 11 days ago, and if in 11 days you can't come up with a lucid explanation for why I'm scum, I'm pretty sure you're reaching. Stop tunneling on me. Please, I say this in all seriousness, why not next time not actually give your reads until you can articulate them in any sort of fashion? I don't even care if it is in wall-fashion, anything would be better than what you've been giving us this game.

@TWIE: Are you always this unpleasant to play with? I wrote it off in 1100 because of the slot you replaced into, but here, srsly, quit acting like such an asshole, or I will ask the mod to forcibly replace you. Going off on multiple f-bomb rants on players is wholly unnecessary and only serves to make the game unpleasant for the rest of us.

Also, I asked for a suspect list from you. Please and thank you.

Also, not being willing to offer townreads at all is just stupid, especially later in the game when PoE actually DOES matter in scumhunting. Townhunting informs scumhunting. Neglecting townreads is a bad, bad way to play.

Also, it bears repeating--stop acting like such an asshole.

Also, I'm too lazy to go back and find it, but SP vig-voted DY, DY posted asking why, and SP vig-votes me. What. The. Heck. This almost looks too scummy to be scum, but I don't really like that argument very much. Too easy to write off what would be scummy as it.

Then why'd you point it out if you were just going to publicly second guess yourself about it like that?

@Jily: Speaking only for myself, I'm not asking you to vig Elsa because she's V/LA, I'm asking you to vig her because of everything she did before going V/LA.

[DarthYoshi]

Mastin, you're missing the point. It may be a strawman to you, but to EVERYONE else in the game, it isn't, precisely because it is all you have offered. We can't read your mind, we can't read your QT. So you may feel like I am stawmanning you, but the reality is I am defending myself the best I can against what evidence you've presented me. In a courtroom, how would it look for a defendant to say, "Yeah, you didn't actually say why I'm guilty," and for the prosecutor to reply only with, "No, there's more, I swear! Stop focusing only on the weak stuff!" The jury would laugh. Come on.

@TWIE: Alex and broken I get, but why is Mastin scummy?

[DarthYoshi]

Also,

Unvote. Vote: Alduskkel.

WK is not off the hook, not by a long shot, but Ald hasn't offered legitimate content since last Thursday, and unlike Elsa, didn't actually declare V/LA. He has parked his vote on what started as the Gerhard Krause playslot and hasn't moved it once, which on D1 is a significant scumtell for me, because (1) it indicates both a lack of proactive scumhunting using your most powerful scumhunting weapon, (2) that he has placed it where he now knows the lynch likely won't occur, so he won't be on the wagon that will be subsequently scrutinized if the lynchee flips town, and (3, and perhaps most importantly), he voted the GK slot and then doesn't do much interacting with that slot as of late--I think town is much more apt to interact with the players they think are scum to try to get them to slip further; compartmentalizing your D1 interactions is very much scummy.

This is strengthened by the reality that Ald has completely abstained from the vig-vote discussion. I was V/LA and still managed to contribute to it in my very first post back.

WK can wait. Let's lynch Alduskkel.

[DarthYoshi]

@DarthYoshi: I don't think a lurker-lynch is a good idea. Let's wait and see what he has to say for himself first, and then decide after that.

One vote does not a lynch make. Nobody as yet has joined the wagon (though I don't know why). So I don't get why you're worried. In any case, it isn't like it's a recent thing that he's lurking--I've been saying for ages that Ald has basically been flying under the radar the whole game, plus, my case on Ald isn't simply "he lurks."

@DarthYoshi: Why is Alduskkel>WormyKrew? You seemed to have a lot more suspicion on WormyKrew.

Read my case on Ald.

As an aside, given the delicate nature of these two quotes from you in trying to cast doubt on my case on Ald, I'm pretty sure if Ald flips scum that you are scum as well after all, which would mean that Elsa is town. I know that's a lot of somersaults, but that ultimately means we shouldn't be vigging Elsa. So...

Un vig vote Elsa, vig vote Alex.

@SP: Why is Ald town to you?

Yoshi, if I didn't have

all 3 scum

on lock already, your 715 would make me quite a bit more angrier than it currently is. And I moved my vig vote because you're not scum with him.

Two big problems with this line--first, how do you know on D1 that there are three scum in the setup?

FoS: Secret Project.

Second, in your #746, I am on your town list. Not null, not scum. But lines like these aren't how I would imagine town interacting with town--I have no idea what about my #715 makes you angry.

I didn't want to do this, but I'm going to ask you guys to start signing all of your posts, because this kind of hydra schizophrenia is driving me bonkers. These sorts of discrepancies should be worked out in your QT before they ever make it here in the thread.

Finally, stop patting yourself on the back that you apparently called the scumteam on D1. My guess is you probably didn't.

Also, entirely unrelated, I agree with Mastin that more frequent VCs would be helpful.

[DarthYoshi]

Yoshi, the assumption that there's 3 scum is based on the setup speculation that was posted by someone, I can't remember who, saying that in a mini normal there's generally either 3 scum, no SK or 2 scum, an SK or 3 scum, an SK. Since we apparently have a vig, there's no way there's an SK as that would make for potentially 3 kills on one night, and a potential scum win as early as N3 if I calculated correctly.

The vig point is good, and is well taken; a vig would mean no SK, but I have seen mini normals run with a 9:2:2 setup with two scum factions and there is a limited (one/two-shot) town-aligned vig.

Your second point, I don't particularly care to answer, as it makes no sense, and Ald isn't so much town to me as he is not scum at all. Haven't seen anything scummy from him.

Okay, then why isn't he null to you? IMO, someone needs to be able to prove themselves town--if they don't, but aren't doing anything scummy, they're null. But Ald is town to you.

And yeah, Krew, stop it with the tons of one-liner posts in rapid succession. You're not Ythan.

[DarthYoshi]

DarthYoshi, you're attacking Secret for suggesting 3 scum because you believe it's possible that there's two scum-teams howver you realize that contradicts your reasoning from moving Elsa to town.

Fair enough. I'll rephrase--I don't think Elsa can be scum with Alex. I suppose as well there is the outside possibility of a two-person scumteam if the setup is close to mountainous, but I doubt it.

Mastin, just give us what you have. It doesn't have to be a finished product. Time is ticking, we're down to just over a week left of D1 (and that is after the fairly generous deadline extension).

their actions allows more level-headed players, such as Soben and DarthYoshi, to appear more townish by comparison. This is not good for the town.

Why is this bad for the town when I am town?

I need to re-read Ald's ISO in light of your commentary on him as well as his brand-new wall. I will say that I stand corrected on Ald's point about the expression of suspicion on the WK wagon.

Lastly, I'd like everyone to give their thoughts on me. I don't like the fact that everyone seems to be one-minded on gettig one person lynched.

You're very much null to me. You haven't done anything that I see as really scummy, but you haven't convinced me yet that you're town either. I get Soben's point about the narrowness of D1 lynch options that we are presenting ourselves with, but I don't think you should be today's lynch by any means.

Possible rolefishing? Hard to say, if I were scum I would figure that jily had already completely revealed her role.

Keep in mind that WK was also rolefishing on me earlier in the day (the whole "are you afraid you'll die tonight?" questioning).

One thing that sticks out to me is that as hard as we have been pushing on TWIE, the support for a TWIE lynch has been stagnant and slow to grow. That actually just reinforces our feelings that he will flip scum as its almost always harder to start a wagon on scum than on town.

Funny, I could say the exact same thing about my trying to start an Alduskkel wagon.

FTR, I get the case on TWIE, and I'll hop onto his wagon if you need to secure a majority, he just hasn't been the scummiest yet for me, so my vote hasn't been on him.

Current suspect list (pending a re-read of Alduskkel):
Alduskkel
WK
TWIE/Alex/SP all vying for the #3 spot.

[DarthYoshi]

Also, I will admit that meta is messing with my head somewhat with my TWIE read...while his level of activity is off, imo, his hostile tone is very much similar to my previous game with him, and in that game, it did make me suspicious of him. He flipped town instead. I need to think about this some more.

[DarthYoshi]

@Soben: Newbie 1100--http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=17380

@Ironhead: AFAIK, you're the only one who is feeling like your read may be skewed (you say "everyone,") and yet IIRC, you've been saying I'm town for quite a while now. So, again, what gives? Are you second-guessing that read? If you want, meta me--as town, I tend to be a fairly rational (I hope!) sort of player.

[DarthYoshi]

Mastin, thank you. I still think you're wrong, but I can at least say why I think you're wrong besides simply repeating, "Nah uh!"

^I posted this in my QT earlier. Essentially, it said "Ald and WormyKrew aren't scum together, but Yoshi could be with either of them." (Though now it's pretty much only WormyKrew.)

This is going to be a common point I'll return to--I have four completed games as scum. In only one of them have I ever bussed a buddy on D1, and in that game (Chesskid's fishslappers mafia) it was out of necessity when the deadline was a-comin' 'round the bend. I have voted both Ald and WK without any urgency.

Tone. It's RVS, but the tone in here is off. It's unnatural, artificial.

Actually, there isn't a whole lot I can say to this other than "Nah uh." I know you're wrong, but there isn't a whole lot aside from dying that will prove that I am right.

Said Tuesday 31st in May. (Yes, I'm going to keep track of this. Yoshi himself has admitted it's one of the most important questions.)

What does this have to do with me being scum? Has my activity level not been to your liking or something?

This reads as the condescending scum attitude. I don't see this as the town legitimately inquiring. This gives off the Tone of scum who is trying to take advantage of a poor player, who is prodding her, looking for potential weaknesses and bandwagon viability.

Okay, Mastin, you get the benefit of hindsight as a player who replaced in, but I didn't. When I made the post you're referring to, it was impossible to know that Jily was that weak of a player--this was way before her drawn-out role claim, ink vomit, and etc. Additionally, I've long since changed my tune and have been adamant in saying that we aren't lynching Jily today, despite her "easy lynch" status. You can read that as white knighting if you want, but know that if you do, it runs completely contrary to what you're saying here is a scumtell.

Alex creates a (albeit weak) link to a Yoshi-Alex pairing in #31.

I'll point once again to my meta. I don't bus on D1.

This gave off the tone of Lampshade Hanging. (What? I lampshade all the time when I'm scum! It's incredibly obvious after I'm dead, but virtually invisible while I'm alive.)

Huh? Or, I said it because it's freaking true. Two of the three times I was lynched as scum, it was because I was caught after a buddy had flipped. I'm almost never the first scum lynched in a game, but I really suck at avoiding associative tells. If I'm scum, and you guys kill a different scum, I would probably end up sticking out like a sore thumb.

You see? This is the kind of "why" which doesn't come off to me as being the legitimate scumhunting kind. It feels like the scummy "why me" version, rather than the pro-town "explain" version. Kinda hard to explain, but it's all in the Tone.

Okay, so it's in the tone, since I am (in so many words) asking Ald to explain an unexplained RVS vote. Again, nothing I can really say or do to prove you're wrong short of dying. Moving on...

Once more, this did not seem like the town tone, asking for further reasoning. In this case, it being polite made it sound worse than if it had been blunt and to the point. Creates an Iron-Yoshi link, though I think Iron's town.

Asking for further reasoning is a scumtell? Dude, read my town games, that's just how I ask questions. My town game has changed A LOT from my very first game here that you ICed.

If you've been keeping track at home, three of Mastin's points against me are simply gut feeling about the 'tone' of my posts. I honestly don't know how to refute that aside from re-asserting my intent, as I've done here. If you want me vigged to prove my truthfulness, then vote to have me vigged.

Other general items of note about Mastin's case on me--

Almost all of these points come from very early in the game, which strongly suggests tunnelvision on Mastin's part.

For me to be scum in Mastin's worldview, it would have to be with Alex, Ald, or WK (maybe monk given Mastin's arugment about the VC). In the former two cases, that means a mutual bus was in effect on D1, which might work in the instance of Alex, since we cross-voted relatively early, but certainly not in the case of Ald, where I was vacillating and working on a case on him for a long time--if I were scum, it'd be much easier to just bus him, knowing that I was right. As for WK, note what I said to Mastin earlier in the game when he voted WK--why would Mastin vote for his #1 scumread's #1 scumread? Because his #1 scumread is actually town.

All of that is to say (in the above paragraph)--Mastin tends to put a lot of emphasis on VC and association in his scumhunting, but if you go by association, the only possible partner who Mastin also suspected that might make a lick of sense would be Alex--except that I have had my vig vote parked on him for a while now, so I am clearly unafraid of him dying and potentially flipping scum. In Mastin's view of the game, of who is most likely to be scum,

me being scum just doesn't add up.

[DarthYoshi]

My responses to Mastin's...yada yada yada.

Something I was going to make clear in the finished case (but didn't do in the above, thanks to it being posted while incomplete), was that I believe ONE OF Yoshi/Ald to be scum FOR SURE, but that the OTHER among them would be confirmed town.

So why not hop onto the Ald wagon with me? Lynch scum AND have it be informative for your remaining reads? Profit.

Strawmanning the point. The point was that you asked in a polite tone for my reasoning, which was the scum way to word things, versus the town way, which would be far more blunt and to the point.

The way you took that first sentence of mine out of context is itself a strawman. I DID address your concern when I said that was HOW I ask questions as town.

1: I am a strong advocate of early-game play being far more telling than mid-to-late-game play. Specifically, I've been a strong advocate of "all the information needed to find the scumteam within the first ~5 pages". (Give or take a couple.) So, yeah. Of COURSE I have a lot of stuff on the early game, because to me, the early game is quite frankly more vital than the late game.

I absolutely, completely, wholeheartedly, utterly, vehemently, and adamantly 100% disagree with this point of view.

I eagerly await your case on the basis of the other however-many pages of material in this game.

PS: What informs your thoughts on tone? If it is gut, instinct, etc., then yes, there is overlap.

[DarthYoshi]

@Mastin: Can you please put in your quote headers who it is that you are quoting?

@Mod: I feel like this game is slowing down. At a minimum, I think brokenscraps is need of prodding. Anyone else?

And, in display of crass hypocrisy, I myself am V/LA through Monday. Sorry for the frequent V/LAs, I am in the midst of a job search, and I've been traveling a lot for that.

[DarthYoshi]

I am back. Lynch preferences of the viable wagons is in this order...

WK
Brokenscraps
TWIE

Sort of unnerved with how TWIE became the leading wagon when I think the other cases are stronger. Am also amazed that nobody except maybe Mastin seems interested in lynching Alduskkel, who, with the deadline fad approaching, is suddenly nowhere to be found again. Oh well, he can wait.

Unvote. Vote wormy krew.

[DarthYoshi]

Fast approaching, not fad approaching. Silly iPad auto correct.

[DarthYoshi]

Are we sure that there has been a hammer? Based on alex's vc, I am not sure there has been, can someone enlighten me? This would also be exactly why more frequent vote counts would be helpful...

Sobens 918 is right on the money. His note about TWIE is well taken, too, I have seen TWIE be far more active towards the end of the game as town than this. Additionally, I am actually slightly inclined to believe wormys claim.

If there hasn't been a hammer yet, then

Unvote. Vote TWIE.

If there has been a hammer, then TWIE needs to be vigged tonight.

PS, Mastin, I hought the urgency to get a lynch was for enough time for claims and whatnot based on your comment about it being a courtesy. Didn't realize it was more for your own peace of mind. This game does not revolve around you. Hastening a lynch like that for reasons like that is incredibly selfish and anti town.

[DarthYoshi]

I tried to kill weirdalexv. F--- you. Excuse my language. I truly believed he was scum.

Now, I want to spend a little bit of time to figure out who would be gaining the most from Secret Project being dead. I think it might not be the person he was onto though, because scum probably want us to lynch them. This is so WIFOMy...

NK analysis is, at best, an art, and I think you actually have a much bigger clue in front of you--that you had tried to vig Alex and were apparently RBed.

Here's the rub--skim Alex's ISO. Here's the Greatest Hits:

ISO #9: Casts suspicion on spit's vote on WK with vague, gut-like assertions.
ISO #34: Tries to imply that SP is WK's buddy. Given that SP has now flipped town, this looks very much like scum teeing up a future mislynch.
ISO #44: This is the FIRST time he directly interacts with WK in the entire game, and it is only to ask WK for a suspect list.
ISO #54: Says he'll vote WK to prevent no-lynch. Whatever.

And that's it in terms of his interaction with WK--given how active a poster WK was, it was like Alex was going out of his way to not interact with WK lest a paper trail lead us to him--which to me is a HUGE D1 scumtell.

Finally, I am almost certain that the TWIE wagon was scum-driven simply by default, as most of my townreads were on the WK wagon. Assuming a 10:3 setup, WK may have been bussed by one buddy, but I am guessing that if that was the case, the other buddy stayed off the wagon. I am pretty sure Alex is scum, and will incessantly demand his lynch today until all of you oblige me.

Side note: If Alex flips scum, then I am almost certain Elsa and TWIE are town.

Vote: Weirdalex.

[DarthYoshi]

I have to say, I didn't expect a scum flip from Krew.

Good job to those using their noggins...

Either Jily fakeclaimed, or we have a RB on our hands... Right?

Emphasis mine. Why weren't you expecting a scumflip from Krew? And why are you saying as much today? This looks like scum covering their tracks for not being on the scum-lynching wagon.

And yes, either Jily fakeclaimed or she was RBed/jailed. If, before LyLo, there has not been a two-flip, then I would strongly suggest that Jily be policy lynched in the off chance she's scum (personally, I think she is who she says she is, but best not to take the chance come LyLo). That also is to say,

if there is a town-aligned jailkeeper, you need to not target Jily at some point so that her kill that night can go through and we can confirm her as town.

Yes, there's a chance that the scum will target Jily that night, but better to force the scum to use their NK on her rather than us having to policy lynch her.

[DarthYoshi]

ISO #9: Casts suspicion on spit's vote on WK with vague, gut-like assertions.

Scummy how? I have already said that I really like gut reads, I've had 2 gut-scum correct and a few gut-towns correct also.

Yeah, except it wasn't just a gut read, you literally said "I don't know why" and went on to call it sheeping. When someone really doesn't like something but can't say why, my eyebrows are raised (see also: Mastin.).

I panic when I think it's about 1 day until the deadline (even when it turns out we got a deadline extension).

Huh? I'm saying that your enthusiasm for a WK lynch was lukewarm at best, not panicky. This doesn't jibe at all with the tone of the post I actually pointed out.

Your other two responses are either concessions or non-responses.

Finally, *if* we are going to play the NK WIFOM game, both heads of SP had seriously suspected Alex at the end of D1.

Moar Alex votes pleeze.

[DarthYoshi]

@Ald: Bleh, I forgot about that (re: a one-shot losing their ability if RBed).

Okay, day before LyLo, if town hasn't already won, then Jily needs to be policy lynched. Everyone okay with this? ('Cept probably Jily. Sorry. )

[DarthYoshi]

This is mostly a (mildly irritated) reply to Mastin.

Additionally, WormyKrew (scumwagon) had TWIE as a counterwagon.

So why aren't you voting for someone who was off the WK wagon (or on the TWIE wagon)?

I do agree with your reasoning that TWIE is almost certainly town. The fact that Alex voted him out of the gate should be an even bigger indication that Alex is scum, and that you should be voting for him. Seriously. I still think Ald is scum, too, but Ald can wait.

BTW--does it NOT surprise you, in the slightest, that the two players you have most recently had your votes on--WK and Ald--happened to be two of MY biggest scumreads? And yet I'm still almost your #1 suspect? For the love of whatever is holy to you, Mastin, take the pants off of your head.

Also, Jily is still likely town, despite the failed kill.

I will be very interested to hear how you explain this in light of your seemingly firm D1 belief that there was no scum RB.

Also. As good as an Alex lynch is today.

You guys should sheep me.

One of Ald or Yoshi should be lynched today.
I guarantee you, ONE of them is scum. Not sure which one. As nice as a lynch on Alex is, he is not the best lynch.

How do you reconcile this with your later analysis that within Soben/Alex/Iron/Broken is one scum and that if it isn't Alex, you know who it is? That means that from your perspective, Alex is as informative a lynch to you as either Ald or me. So why aren't you voting Alex?

Also, Mastin, FWIW, you have no room to call out other players for a lack of commentary on their suspect list.

Lines like this (not to mention overall tone) are one of the reasons Yoshi continues to be right there at the top of my list.

Lines like this that don't explain why you think I'm scum beyond vague allusions to tone is why I've been so irritated with you all game. I say this in the nicest way possible--if you are town, Mastin, then I'm happy to work with you to win this game, but after this game is over, I seriously need to take a break from playing any games that you are in.

Let me put this in the best possible wording:
No.

[/quote]

Again--SAY WHY. I shouldn't have to ask you so many times to explain yourself.

Thus endeth my rant at Mastin.

[DarthYoshi]

...also, apparently, thus endeth my requisite quote tag fail post for this particular game. Substrike, if possible, could you fix that?

[DarthYoshi]

...actually it looks like it was a typo when I typed in the [quote] tag at the top--I wrote "qupte" instead. Derp on me. Hopefully that is easily spotted.

*goes back to re-teach himself touch typing*

[DarthYoshi]

And your post here is yet another example of why you continue to be at the top with Ald, making it harder for me to stay on him. Trying to get me onto Alex, for instance.

Wait...me trying to get you to vote someone you admittedly are fairly sure is scum is itself scummy? Mastin, if I were scum, I'd have huge incentive to make sure Ald is lynched today instead of me. I'm pushing Alex because as convinced as I was yesterday (and still am) that Ald is probscum, I am even more convinced that Alex is scum. Now that we actually have a scumflip, why not try scumhunting by association as opposed to sticking to your usual guns?

Did I ever?

You, about Ald (emphasis mine): "Also, Ald's overall suspects are...shall we say...quite weak. Me, the three above, no vote, and...

pretty much no commentary about other players.

(He called TWIE and Elsa town, but aside from that, he is leaving himself open to vote for...pretty much any player on the list.)"

Jily is obv-town. Was so BEFORE the claim. This should be perfectly obvious. No need to explain something perfectly obvious.

On the basis of her play, yes, she looks town, but she also claimed a role that is now unconfirmable, so I think a pre-LyLo policy lynch is a legitimate question. FTR, I'm also noting that you are basically ignoring the comments being put to you about your belief of there being no scum RB on D1. If there was no scum RB (or town JK, I suppose), that means Jily was almost certainly fakeclaiming and needs to be thrown into death stew. This would be a remarkable about-face; you can't have it both ways, Mastin.

[DarthYoshi]

Fixed, but, who fixed it? Cause it wasn't me, and I don't really like people editing posts in my games. Please let me do it in the future. Thanks

It actually isn't fixed. Look at the end of the first sentence in the quote tag--my quote tag code has a typo in it, which I'm guessing caused my screw-up there.

Alternatively...it was gremlins.

[DarthYoshi]

pretty much no commentary about other players
^I've given plenty of commentary on ALL other players. PLENTY. ALL.

Ald gave commentary on only a few. Sure, on a few names, he commented on. But on others, he ignored.

If that makes sense.

Yes, fair 'nuff. I think I am just still full of piss and vinegar over your case on me.

@Ironhead: Can you explain the strength of your townread on Soben? He was (is?) a townread of mine, but WK's flip with how strongly he pushed a TWIE lynch until that point is giving me some pause.

@Soben: Similarly, please explain how WK's flip makes Iron obvtown. I think Iron is probtown, but I don't think I'm as convinced as you seem to be.

[DarthYoshi]

I had this nice long post of reasoned brilliance written out, and then the f-ing internetz ate it. Here is the Cliffs Notes version.

@Alex: Your passivity ("I'll answer any questions") without commenting on, say, your wagon, or TWIE's growing wagon, or the Ald-Mastin-me triangle of frustration screams scum.

@Mastin: FTR, what Ald is saying about you agreeing with a scumread is what I have been saying all along as well. We were in lockstep on WK being scum and on Ald being scum. But you still think I'm scum. WTF?

@Ald: If you're not going to vote and not going to give us a suspect list in lieu of a vote, then you are not looking a whole lot more townish than you were D1.

@Soben: That's a fair point re: why WK might have claimed VT, but it does not mean that TWIE's wagon was not scum-driven, a scum may have been on it as well to try to further divide the town in the hopes of creating a compromise lynch/no-lynch.

Also,

mod, this is my formal request that brokenscraps be forcibly replaced. He is the only player to have not posted since D2 started, and this plus his significant stretches of D1 inactivity after replacing in makes me think that he isn't actually committed to the game.

On a similar note, more Elsa sure would be nice. I've seen her online and not posting. No likey.

[DarthYoshi]

@Elsa: Can you rank Alex and CC in terms of scumminess for you, and why?

Soben's #995 is actually a fairly damning point about TWIE. I know this because in a scumgame I was in recently, two of us were wagoned up D1, and our third buddy was caught because he didn't hop wagons to keep one of us from getting lynched. I may be changing my vote soon, I need to think about this some more.

Alex's #998, however, continues the trend of no proactive material coming from him, and still makes him a tempting lynch target. I also maintain that his flip will solidify our reads on Elsa quite handily.

Current suspect list, for those keeping track at home, in order of scumminess:
Alex
TWIE
Alduskkel

[DarthYoshi]

@Elsa: Can you rank Alex and CC in terms of scumminess for you, and why?

I'd put CC *slightly* above Alex in terms of scuminess, mostly due to the fact that CC started lurking at about the time I came back from vacation and hasn't done much since then (despite being *convinced* in my scuminess). He's most recently pulled out the old, "whoops, forgot, catching up" post that is one of my largest scumtells (active lurking at it's best and all that). Mind you, what comes after that kind of post is important, but he's shown us nothing yet.

The fact that alex has been actively engaging the town, at least moreso than CC, puts him slightly lower on my scumlist (#2 instead of #1). However, I don't think jily vig-attempt should be overlooked. Whether she's town or not can be addressed in the coming days, but she claims her kill on alex was blocked, and that alone sounds fairly concrete.

So why is your vote on Alex if he is not your #1 read?

(HINT: MASTIN, DISCREPANCIES LIKE THESE AREN'T WHY YOU SHOULD AUTOMATICALLY ASSUME SOMEONE IS OBVTOWN.)

As for the NK WIFOM game, I think I've already noted that both heads of SP saw Alex as scummy, but that there are more damning pieces of evidence against Alex.

@Alex: What makes you say the CC/Elsa interactions look town-v-town?

Dunno if it's just me, but D2 *feels* like it is going slower than molasses in January...dunno if it is because of all the V/LAs or whut. Yeah.

[DarthYoshi]

Because not a single person jumped on the CC wagon yesterday and there seems little interest right now. Alex is my #2 and people were voting him, so yeah, I'm going to jump on that bandwagon.

Why would a person who is playing from a town mindset be concerned with a wagon's viability at the immediate outset of the day? We have lots of time, why would you not want to push your #1? This is scummy reasoning right here, and it keeps me from moving you anywhere further than null on my scumdar.

@Alex: Can you explain the progression of your read on Elsa from scummy on D1 to town now?

TWIE's most recent post is bad--like Alex's contributions, it is almost entirely reactive and interested in justifying his play, not in scumhunting. I still think Alex is scummalicious, and my vote stays, but I am officially down with a TWIE lynch for D2 and will join his wagon to secure a majority if the need should arise. Alduskkel remains my #3, and I don't know what to make of Brokenscraps, since his lurking was a precursor to flaking (which in my book is generally a null tell).

[DarthYoshi]

What up TS. Nice to be playing with you again. Also glad to see you kickstarted the activity level in this game some. I have a few things to bring up with you about below. This be kind of a wall. Alas:

#160: comradé Alduskel seems to be riding the easy wagon of Krause wwhich I would certainly have not ridden as I've explained previously. He needs to post more too. No town fruit here. But i do agree with his Jily assesment

The reason I bring this up is because you seem to be drinking Mastin's kool aid that either Ald or I must be scum, and to note that it seems your not-town read on Ald came much easier than on me.
[quote="TS"
yeah, iron looks town due to krew interactions now. so does yoshi

wooo

page 9

[/quote]

Here you declare that I look town. Again, this will be important later.

oh yeah, that scummy award for best replacement. You'd better all nominate me after 41 pages of... this..

Well, right now your competition is Setael, whom you should know from Neruz's game how good a replacement she is, so...

Also, please explain the "townvibes" you get from CC.


[quote="TS]okay, I'm on page 39 and have skimmed a little, so If you feel I've missed anything important, please remind me

where I stand now, after 41 pages of catchup, Alex is by far the scummiest and he goes today.
Yoshi and Ald deserve suspect status though.
Yoshi started off well but failed to consolidate his original town read
I trust Mastin on TWIE being town
Mastin, CC, Elsa and Soben are probtown now

Jilly looks supect after saying she didn't know what a QT was when she obviously did as Soben pointed out. Mind explaining this, Jilly?
Finally, Iron is town

I think scum lies in {Alex, Ald, yoshi} and I have confidence in this

recent changes: Alex's last post doesn't look half bad on the surface actually. I might have to look at that again.
Also, when I remember scum have a roleblocker, Elsa looks suspect again[/quote]

Okay, at least in this post, you go from explicitly saying I look town to saying that I deserve suspect status without detailing the change in opinion. Please do so. I am not asking you to do so because I find you to be scummy, but because I feel I need to end this "Ald and Yoshi are equally scummy" goop once and for all--if you look at our ISOs side-by-side, there should be little question as to who has been more townish.

Finally, same thing I said to Mastin--your suspect list, with Alex and Ald, is basically MY suspect list--does that tell you nothing about my alignment?

Onward...

#1020: You note that Ald's interactions with me make me look town.

#1022: Ditto, but w/ Alex's interactions with me.

Next post, you vote me. The closest I can come to a reason why is WK attacking me and calling me town, but keep in mind SP did the same thing--at one point I was "their favorite," and they wanted me vigged or copped. I think that schizophrenia may be a hydra thing more than anything else, especially since WK did not seem that adept at using their QT properly.

Finally, especially since I was privy to a recent scumgame of your's and this looks nothing like that effort, plus the nature of your catch-up post suggests townish stream-of-consciousness (rather than scripted scum thoughts), I think you're probably town.

Side note...

and I trust mastin immensely (although I do respect Pastor Yoshi greatly too but...)

? Why the need for this when you are about to vote me? And don't use small text. Ever. Even if the rules allow it, please don't use it.

Also--if anyone here needs a baptism/wedding/exorcism performed, I'm your guy.

page 42:

And that contagious idea I've had growing? That the scum in there isn't Alex...but rather, Soben.


I haven't done my research. (I'll see if I can pick my play up this game.) But my gut is really telling me not to let go of this. That having a strong (Strongest, actually!) town-read on Soben was a Mistake which I should Regret. That Alex is town, and Soben is scum.

Please explain. Especially given TS's prescient note that WK was blatantly buddying to Soben on D1.

Also, I'm still waiting for an explanation on your Jily read vis-a-vis your D1 conviction of no scum RB.

I've asked for this already

, Mastin. That you continue to ignore it means my read on you is shifting from town to null.

@Everyone (especially mastin though)
wierdalexv wrote:
Wormy, I take it you're town?

Crap. Well, what Corporal and Soben said.

Do you find this a townslip?

Potentially, yes. I agree it does sound like Alex did not know WK's alignment.

"Wait. Why WASN'T Soben killed?!?"

Because. Let's face it. On Day one--in order--the three least suspected players were Soben, myself, and Secret.

Secret was third-least-suspected, and yet, got killed over myself, and Soben.

That left the burning question--why.
Why wasn't Soben targetted?

Why weren't you NKed, then, since you list yourself as a better NK than SP? This is a relevant question since most of your case on Soben revolves around NK WIFOM.

@Ironhead: What do you specificially think about the potential townslip from Alex that TS points out?

CC's TS vote is terrible. It isn't reasoned, it alludes to meta without mentioning specific examples, and aside from that one line in his #996,

I can't think of a single instance where he expressed serious suspicion of brokenscraps.

CC goes from neutral to neutral-leaning-scum.

page 43:

most likely Alduskkel; have you noticed the way that WK called him town and then [literally, I looked through ISO] never brought him up again?

A fair point, but keep in mind that my D2 case on you revolved around the lack of interaction WK had with YOU. How does this make Ald scum if you're town?

The first post doesn't show TwistedSpoon's alignment, and the rest don't look as town to me for some reason. I'd still say you're town though,

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot??

And FTR, I have no experience w/ SleepyKrew before this game, so I am unfamiliar with his meta.

Alex's #1053: Badposting. Any reasonable person would see, I think, that this isn't a contradiction. And you go from saying TS is town to voting him?

SCUM USUALLY BUS ONE OF THEIR PARTNERS.

No.

Yoshi I reaaaaaly want to believe is town. I realise Soben has a town read on him and I had one on him at the start too.

Sadly, I don't know his scum meta

, but i do like his recent reads. Maybe he deserves to be higher on my town list...

Emphasis mine. My scumgames:

Mini 1121
Mini 1146
Open 298
Open 301

Also, please explain the thought progression from you voting me to me being lean-town.

Whew.

Since I have a townread on TS, I'm willing to take his side on the Alex townslip thing, so I'll put my vote elsewhere for the moment.

Unvote. Vote: TWIE.

Ald is now my #2. Same what I said about TWIE--I'll hop onto that wagon to make a majority should the need arise. Alex slides to #3 or 4.

[DarthYoshi]

Hahahaha, epic quote tag fail with that giant quote block in the middle. I'm going to go ahead and just re-post that with hopefully corrected tags.

I need coffee...

[DarthYoshi]

oh yeah, that scummy award for best replacement. You'd better all nominate me after 41 pages of... this..

Well, right now your competition is Setael, whom you should know from Neruz's game how good a replacement she is, so...

Also, please explain the "townvibes" you get from CC.

okay, I'm on page 39 and have skimmed a little, so If you feel I've missed anything important, please remind me

where I stand now, after 41 pages of catchup, Alex is by far the scummiest and he goes today.
Yoshi and Ald deserve suspect status though.
Yoshi started off well but failed to consolidate his original town read
I trust Mastin on TWIE being town
Mastin, CC, Elsa and Soben are probtown now

Jilly looks supect after saying she didn't know what a QT was when she obviously did as Soben pointed out. Mind explaining this, Jilly?
Finally, Iron is town

I think scum lies in {Alex, Ald, yoshi} and I have confidence in this

recent changes: Alex's last post doesn't look half bad on the surface actually. I might have to look at that again.
Also, when I remember scum have a roleblocker, Elsa looks suspect again

Okay, at least in this post, you go from explicitly saying I look town to saying that I deserve suspect status without detailing the change in opinion. Please do so. I am not asking you to do so because I find you to be scummy, but because I feel I need to end this "Ald and Yoshi are equally scummy" goop once and for all--if you look at our ISOs side-by-side, there should be little question as to who has been more townish.

Finally, same thing I said to Mastin--your suspect list, with Alex and Ald, is basically MY suspect list--does that tell you nothing about my alignment?

Onward...

#1020: You note that Ald's interactions with me make me look town.

#1022: Ditto, but w/ Alex's interactions with me.

Next post, you vote me. The closest I can come to a reason why is WK attacking me and calling me town, but keep in mind SP did the same thing--at one point I was "their favorite," and they wanted me vigged or copped. I think that schizophrenia may be a hydra thing more than anything else, especially since WK did not seem that adept at using their QT properly.

Finally, especially since I was privy to a recent scumgame of your's and this looks nothing like that effort, plus the nature of your catch-up post suggests townish stream-of-consciousness (rather than scripted scum thoughts), I think you're probably town.

Side note...

and I trust mastin immensely (although I do respect Pastor Yoshi greatly too but...)

[DarthYoshi]

@Yoshi: see my recent posts. Things have changed. Unless mastin stops ignoring me and my soben case I'm not going to trust him on TWIT, and in my recent posts I explain how you're now a town read after reconsideration and how ald is a preferable lynch. I said in my last posts that I think you're probtown

Also, please explain the "townvibes" you get from CC.

I don't anymore

his last post weirded me out to be frank

Since I have a townread on TS, I'm willing to take his side on the Alex townslip thing, so I'll put my vote elsewhere for the moment.

Unvote. Vote: TWIE.

this should be on ald imo

can anyone sum up the case on TWIT since I haven't read him up yet? thanks

And don't use small text. Ever. Even if the rules allow it, please don't use it.

I don't

If you had anymore questions regarding my reads I think my last few posts on you explain them. I've just replaced in so my inital reads may have been slightly different from my recent ones

In reverse order--

The small text comment was in reference to your #1023.

As for Ald v. TWIE, my comment above was to indicate that I am (a) perfectly fine with a lynch of either, and (b) more fine with a lynch of either than with an Alex lynch now. The big reason I think TWIE should go before Ald is Soben's argument explaining WK's VT claim--that it was to save TWIE's ass. Also, FWIW, I played recently with TWIE, and this is not like his town game at all in terms of activity level--he was much more in the thick of things as town.

In any case, a lot of the TWIE case revolves around his ISO--you read it, and you'll see little scumhunting, and as of late, mostly justifications for his anti-town play. The WK association does hurt him some; yes, WK's vote on him could have been a bus as well. I am currently re-reading WK's ISO for connections to both TWIE and Ald; suffice it to say I feel reasonably confident at least one of them is scum.

Can you explain your "weirded out" reaction to CC's post some more?

Thanks.

[DarthYoshi]

oh yeah, that scummy award for best replacement. You'd better all nominate me after 41 pages of... this..

Well, right now your competition is Setael, whom you should know from Neruz's game how good a replacement she is, so...

I like to think I have a chance of getting something

Lemme know if you need me to pray for the scummies judging committee or anything.

[DarthYoshi]

VOTE: TWIE

1) I'm trusting yoshi. Apparently there's no scumhunting in the Iso and Yoshi can't lie about what's visible to everyone
2) I still need to read up on him
3) Ald is V/LA. Vote on him is pointless

*snip*

@yoshi: I didn't understand it in my read up, but now I understand your mastin frustrations. I hear you bro :p

While I am glad for another TWIE vote, #3 in particular is not a good reason--I actually agree with Mastin on this one. #2 isn't great either, but at least your vote on him might spark more information. It's nice that you think I'm town, but you should also take everything I say with the appropriate amount of skepticism until I die and am confirmed town.

BTW, am relishing the irony of you dinging Ald for buddying me.

Okay, @Mastin:

First, stop using big text. It's annoying, and it just makes you come across, frankly, like a pissed-off jerk.

Addressing both Twisted and Yoshi: I fail to see how you haven't realized that I HAVE answered the questions you've brought up.

This is patently a non-answer, and one I can EASILY see scum giving.

FoS: Mastin.

While I respect the Elsa/TWIE viewpoint...
We'd need to decide on ONE name between them to lynch.
But...
Those wagons shouldn't be happening at all.
Not only for lack of support, but additionally, because...

Whut? TWIE wagon shouldn't be happening due to a lack of support? What are you smokin'?

Ald and Yoshi containing one scum is easily provable, and believed by multiple players.

^Fallacy of appealing to the majority, and actually is not provable without lynching us both. Fail, Mastin.

And this doesn't set off alarms to you...how? Alex not having known WK's alignment-->Alex is town-->All the suspicion on him would therefore be of extreme interest-->I don't see that from you.

Dude...did you miss where I changed my vote off of Alex? Or that I moved it onto a player who DID suspect Alex (TWIE had his vig vote on Alex at the end of D1)?

Honestly Mastin, I'm about to give up trying to defend myself to you. I am convinced that you have completely persuaded yourself that I am scum and that NOTHING short of mislynching me will prove that to you. So if you want to lead the charge to lynch me, be my guest. I will continue to defend myself vigorously against other votes on me.

I thought this in another game.
Not this EXACTLY,

But something similar.

I was wrong.

However, my thought of "the counterwagon to a scum wagon is NOT scum" proved RIGHT in said game.

Except that there is no explanation for why WK would have done something so suboptimal as to claim VT on D1 as scum (again, WIFOM aside, and that may be why, but I doubt it). You tell me why WK claimed VT?

PEdit: No. Just. No.

[DarthYoshi]

Also, FTR, I don't think TWIE actually has a D2 vote out, which should be even more damning that having a vote on Alex atm.

[DarthYoshi]

^Fallacy of appealing to the majority, and actually is not provable without lynching us both.

Doubly wrong. It's not appealing to the majority.

It's pointing out how multiple people believe it to be so, and therefore, it has a LOT of support.

(Did I mention I've had scum use this exact fallacy against me recently? I was right--they were scum, and their 'fallacy' proved to be quite false.)

AT LEAST four players have gotten behind the Yoshi/Ald containing one scum. Yourself included, with the scum between you being Ald, obviously.

Bolded emphasis mine. Again, this is appealing to the majority. If multiple people believe it be so, it must be so? Come on, Mastin.

I want a link to this instance you were referring to.

Italics emphasis also mine. I see where you're going with this. Yes, I am behind the Yoshi/Ald prob contains one scum by default because I'm one of those two players. Of course I'm going to say if there is scum between us, it's Ald, because I know I'm town. However, that does not make your hypothesis provable.

I GAVE THE FREAKIN' REASONS IN THAT POST. Interactions NOT being townVtown, the fact that you both appear in WormyKrew's town-list (with the other two being Jily and Secret), the votes at the end of the day.

This is NOT an accurate depiction of the past AT ALL. Mastin, starting as early as your ISO #69, still in the middle of D1, you were suggesting that the interactions between me/Ald suggested scumminess or otherwise scummy connections. Your belief ABSOLUTELY began on the basis of interactions, do NOT pretend otherwise.

[DarthYoshi]

Been thinking about this for the past day or so...I wondered on D1 if my inability to get much support for an Ald lynch was either because I was out of the loop and EVERYONE else thought he was town or because his scumbuddies just ignored my attempts to wagon him. Or both, I guess.

However, with a change in personnel for the game, Ald is getting more attention as of late, so increasing that pressure seems in order to see, if he is scum, if we can find them based on their reactions to this pressure. Ald has two votes on him for, I think, the first time all game, and since really, he and TWIE have simply been trading the #1 and 2 spots at the end of D1 as well as currently, I'm happy to make it three.

(Also, as an aside, having thought on it some more, I'm beginning to think his "I don't care what you think of me" line to me and Mastin was bravado and little more. Town wouldn't put it that way, I think.)

Unvote. Vote: Alduskkel.

@Jily: That minimal contribution from you isn't cutting it, especially from what I can see in the queues that you are /inning into new games. Not cool. At all.

Elsa's recent CC vote is...I dunno what to make of it. It feels forced, because I think the game is flowing in a different direction, and that this would be in response to my dinging her for hopping onto the Alex wagon when Alex wasn't her #1. She shouldn't be today's lynch--that should be Ald or TWIE, I think--but I'm still not entirely convinced yet she's town.

[DarthYoshi]

Also,

Limited access for the next ten days--til about July 14. I should still be able to post fairly regularly, but the content level may drop off some. If it becomes an issue, I'll ask to replace out, but I don't anticipate it being that bad.

[DarthYoshi]

Alex, if you are town, you are doing everything in your power to convince me otherwise.

~~~~~~~~~~
Anyways, DarthYoshi and Twistedspoon look town from that townslip, being it's so unconfirmable and scum could just brush it of, especially since I did (although this doesn't apply to anybody who says that after this post).

Wait, whut? We look town from thinking you might be town?


~~~~~~~~~~

@DarthYoshi: My point on Alduskkel being hypocritical depends on the reasoning for why WK was being avoided. I personally didn't get the WK case and was too busy defending myself (which is kind of embarrasing, I'm not too happy with my play this game).

Not good enough.

Aside from that, who's interested in lynching lurking scum?

Unvote; Vote: Captain Corporal

I like how he abandoned my "wagon" when he made no case against me today AND didn't wasn't even voting for me today. 'F' for Effort, pal.

Based on how Mastin JUST said that people should switch to bigger wagons, I don't see why scum would blatantly ignore that.

I can see why. It's called parking your vote on a player you know won't be lynched that day. Great scum survival tactic, I've used it myself.

[DarthYoshi]

Sorry! My dad took my computer away, since he's cruel and unfair, but I'll have it back in a week. LOL...I don't like being a PR. Also, I only had one shot. I want multi-shot day vig. Anyways, what I meant was I like playing as mafia more than anything else.

I am calling bullshit on this. You just replaced into three games in the past few days since this was written (@everyone else, check the replacement queue if you dont believe me) Additionally, if you dont like being a PR, then you apparently got your wish, since your kill, if you actually had one, didnt go through and according to the mod you would then have to be a vanilla townie then if you really were one shot. Instead, your play and activity level has only decreased.

If you are in fact town, i am adding you to my modding blacklist. Functionally flaking on a game while joining a bunch of others is a really lousy thing to do here.

Major FoS at jily.

[DarthYoshi]

@Soben:

The case on Ald revolves around a few things--

-The "null" nature of his posts, something you yourself admit.

-Low activity level, something Ald himself admits, but does so in such a way, and with such emphasis, that much of his activity has been to justify his lack of quality activity, rather than actual scumhunting.

Plus, there are a couple D1 scumtells--

-Ald parking his vote on what was the Gerhard slot, a slot that never came under serious scrutiny, which to me looked like parking a vote somewhere to avoid scrutiny of it; I noted this as a scumtell when I first voted Ald, and I noted it as a scumtell today with Elsa's vote on CC.

-The WK association--On D1, Ald was attempting to discredit the WK wagon by asking everyone on it (save me) to justify why they were on it, and pronouncing himself unsatisfied with that wagon--BUT, he still joined that wagon, which suggests a buddy bussing to avoid suspicion after the scumflip.

That's the case on Ald in a nutshell. Independently, he is rather scummy. In association with WK, he is in fact very scummy.

CC's little "I'm not seeing Aldscum" ditty is noted for the same reason. If Ald does flip scum, I think CC deserves being under the microscope next.

Completely unrelated, these past series of posts seriously are making it difficult for me to conclude if Jily is really really suspicious or just a VI.

[DarthYoshi]

@TS: AFAIK, TWIE hasn't declared V/LA. Methinks he is due for a prod.

[DarthYoshi]

@Soben: Would like to hear your thoughts on the Ald case in outline, since you asked for it but chose not to comment here.

@Alex: I tried deciphering your line-packed post about Jily and failed. In a paragraph, what are you trying to say about her?

[DarthYoshi]

Alright, i get the points about jily being more active in a scum meta. I am willing to read her boredom as a towntell atm.

This also helps the process of elimination as a part of the alduskkel case, as wormykrew's townlist contained me, ald, jily, and sp. I know i am town, and we all know sp was town, and if we think wk would have stuck a buddy on his townlist, then ald would have to be it. Go go go wagon, go.

Twie flaking is...dunno what to make of this, usually flaking is null to me, but there is part of my gut that is wondering if he flaked out after (and because) his buddy was lynched.

I need to reconsider who my secondary suspects are.

[DarthYoshi]

I am amazed (and not in the good way) that we have since stopped scumhunting to lament the sadness of having to catch up on a game that you fell behind in.

Corporal, Elsa, Ironhead (yes, you're posting, but barely), you're awfully absent. What say you? Additionally, Elsa, no vote out? WTF?

[DarthYoshi]

Corporal, Elsa, Ironhead (yes, you're posting, but barely), you're awfully absent. What say you?

I would like to see Alduskkel confront the case on him. Depending on how he responds, I may be inclined to switch my vote to him; or I may be inclined to push for another candidate. I have been checking this thread daily in anticipation of Alduskkel's response. I don't want to see the discussion go off on a different tangent just because Alduskkel is absent; thus, I see the lack of activity as a necessary byproduct of Alduskkel's absence.

Dude, deadline in less than a week. You cant just let alduskkel, or any player for that matter, run out the clock like that. We need to ome to a consensus on a lynch candidate, fast.

[DarthYoshi]

I actually completely agree with Mastin's above post.

[DarthYoshi]

Sorry, due to LA I don't have the means atm to make a point-by-point analysis of Ald's wall, but I wanted to point out one glaring omission that nobody seems to have picked up on yet--

I have NOT seen a claim from Ald despite being at L-1 and a player (CC) already demanded a claim, and with the deadline in three days, the quickest way to diffuse a wagon would have been to claim, and there are obvious town and scum motives either way for claiming.

However, if Ald is indeed town, and he genuinely thinks Alex or CC need to be lynched TODAY, claiming could potentially help that cause. That he has not done so makes me think he is not that sincere in his attempts to lynch them. Vote stays.

PS: I'd also like to hear in-depth explanation from Mastin vis-a-vis Ald, and soon, given the deadline.

[DarthYoshi]

I'll get around to why Ald's scum. Not just that post. A legitimate, full-blown case. Theoretical deadline is in three days, but we actually have until *Replacement's Time Coming in +2-3 days* to get a lynch, so I should have the time, if I don't slack off.
AWAY!

Quickly saying from my phone that this is an incredibly anti town mindset. NEVER assume the deadline is anything other than what the mod says. Get cracking, mastin.

[DarthYoshi]

You guys...I am sooo sorry, but I really need to start cutting the crap out of my life, because I'm going to a math camp soon and then I'm trying to get into a boarding school, I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to leave mafiascum, sorry.

Bolding this just to ensure our faithful (though weary-in-the-replacements-search) mod will see this.

Everyone, remember, deadline is in two days unless the mod tells us different. Still wanting an Ald lynch first, but a CC lynch would do as well, I suppose. I kinda understand the case on him, I just think the one on Ald is much stronger, especially in light of him chainsaw-defending WK on D1 by casting suspicion on, like, the entire WK wagon.

I also re-looked at the end-of-D1 votecount. Ald is really the only player on the WK wagon who I am convinced is scum (jily might be, I go back and forth on her; Mastin's stubbornness drives me nuts, but that particular endearing trait of his is towntell coming from him, so I'm back to thinking he is probably town). If he flips town, though, then I am reasonably confident that the scumteam is somewhere in CC/Alex/TWIE. I go back and forth on Elsa, and I think TS in brokenscrap's slot is probably town.

[DarthYoshi]

Also, *if* there is a deadline extension, I return from my limited access tomorrow and should be able to go back to offering significantly more detail in my contributions to the game.

[DarthYoshi]

BTW, CC went in a few days from saying he didn't see the case on Ald to putting Ald at L-1 and demanding a claim. If Ald flips scum, I smell a bus.

[DarthYoshi]

I took TS's and Soben's advice to ISO CC. I didn't get past posts 4 and 6 because I didn't really need to.

Post 4: Says top two suspects are WK and SP (the one-buddy-one-townie tell)

Post 6: All of the sudden reverses himself and says WK is definitely town, and casts suspicion on the wagon much in the same way Ald was doing earlier.

Yeah, I'll support a CC lynch.

Unvote. Vote: CaptainCorporal.

[DarthYoshi]

^ The above post from CC is not a townish post. Note how he casts vague suspicions on his wagon without actually saying who he suspects or why, and feels the need to emphasize the HONESTY of his thinking that WK was town. Town are much more likely to offer specifics and particulars when their back is against the wall, knowing they have nothing to lose by telling the truth. CC basically just says "lookit my wagon" with no real suspect analysis.

I'm amazed that this wagon fell apart so quickly on the basis mostly of Mastin's reaction to it.

[DarthYoshi]

^This is a fair point from Alex. Yes, Mastin is probtown.

@Mastin: If I have the time today, I'll try to go re-read Gerhard's material before CC replaced in. I I don't know what any of the wagons are currently at, so pending a fresh VC from our mod, I will

unvote

for the moment, with the intention of re-allocating it as soon as the VC is posted and when I can re-read Gerhard. I still think either Ald or CC needs to die today, and tbh, I'm not convinced either of them is town yet. I'm at a friend's wedding this afternoon, but I should have some time around that to re-read.

[DarthYoshi]

Okay, I'm still plowing through Ald's latest wall, but I wanted to say two things here--

First, we have two VT claims out right now, and we need to lynch one of them. Having three claims in a day is bad for any town, and if on the off chance both Ald and CC are telling the truth, scum have just narrowed the potential pool of PRs considerably.

Second, I re-read Gerhard, and I actually don't agree with Mastin that Gerhard's play was that townish. Yes, I did call Gerhard's jily vote a towntell, but after that, GK concerned himself only with justifying his own play before replacing out. Seriously, after parking his vote on jily, he does no scumhunting at all and then replaces out. And besides, I think RVS can and is used by scum to pretend to distance from buddies, so I'm not inclined to read much of anything townish into GK's RVS vote of WK, especially when GK doesn't actually interact with any other players besides Jily (compartmentalized D1 interactions is another significant scumtell for me).

Vote goes back on CC.

People on the wierdalex wagon, please join either the CC or Ald wagons. We don't need a third claim today.

Vote: Captain Corporal.

Also--in case I didn't say so explicitly, I have returned from limited access.

[DarthYoshi]

@Soben, why don't you have a vote out atm?

@Ironhead, why haven't you joined the Ald or CC wagons? If you aren't willing to vote for either--if you had to pick one, which and why?

Between Mastin and Ald, I need to put some serious time in catching up on the walls.

[DarthYoshi]

/shameless prod-dodge. And, welcome xvart. I will say my emphasis on the early votes way back when on D1 is because I think that, under the theory that RVS is never truly random, RVS can yield potential associative tells later on in the game--its usefulness is not limited to kicking the game off, which was why I was being so particular about ppl's voting motivations.

Sorry, everyone, I had some stuff come up IRL, and I just got a new newbie game to IC, so my MS.net priority was making sure the newbies could kick that game off okay. I'm back to being around and will have time to catch up more tomorrow. Mastin's stubbornness on CC's towniness is not entirely convincing to me, but really, at this point, with Ald disappearing yet again so close to deadline, I'm just as fine lynching him as I am lynching CC. Really, for me, they are of equal scumminess at this point and it is practically six of one, half dozen of another.

Unvote. Vote: Alduskkel.

@Mod: Sorry to hear you are ill--is there a backup mod you'd want to hand the reins to in case you need to focus entirely on getting better?

[DarthYoshi]

Just had a conversation with Scumhunter and he's finally agreed with us placing our vote on Ald however both of us want to give Xvart some time to catch up and post in the thread before a lynch occurs as well as give Ald a last chance to post reads and his thoughts if he's town.

Consider this post the both of us openly stating that we would be willing to hammer Ald within 10 hours of the deadline.

...and if the viable wagon turns out to be on CC and not on Ald? (albeit unlikely w/ 4 votes now on Ald, but still)

[DarthYoshi]

Thanks for your dedication to our silly little game, Substrike.

[DarthYoshi]

...and if the viable wagon turns out to be on CC and not on Ald? (albeit unlikely w/ 4 votes now on Ald, but still)

NL is terribad. We'd definitely vote CC if the alternative was NL. Alex is such obv town, not really sure why there were votes on him in the first place.

NL is terrible and I mean freaking terrible, but there is no chance in hell we'd vote Alex today not even to avoid NL. At this point, it appears we have decided to vote Ald. His disappearance near deadline has zapped any energy I have to convince R that we should vote CC instead.

Honestly, if it wasn't so late in the day I would definitely support an Elsa lynch. I actually think she and TWIE are actually the two people I'd want to lynch the most right now. Although, neither of those are happening today obviously. With regards to Elsa, iso her as a potential WK partner. Definitely possible. Still not seeing any town tells there.

It will be so freaking lolzy if Ald flips scum, just for the simple fact that mastin will probably STILL push on us tomorrow. R's rage will be so funny to watch.

Also Substrike, yes you pwn etc.

Emphasis mine. Two things here--first, if you've decided to vote Ald, why haven't y'all already put him at L-1, especially with what looks like another attempt by Ald to run out the clock by promising a wall even though the deadline is in 24 hours? (At a minimum, Ald needs to move his vote, he didn't even do that prior to working on the wall.)

Second, Alex has been looking much more townish over the last few IRL days, but I actually adamantly disagree that we should NL before lynching Alex. Please explain your reasoning.

[DarthYoshi]

That's L-1.

Deadline
Who of
{Elsa von Spielburg; Ironhead; Soben; Captain Corporal}
will be around to hammer then?

Soben has also said they will hammer Ald if need be. I think we're fine.

[DarthYoshi]

AAAAAAAAAAHHH!

WHY WHY WHY

Argh.

Yeah.

Jeez.

Freaking lord.

I'll let you all wait for the Mod to reveal my role.

See you post-game...

Ald is scum. He has claimed VT, but the line about waiting for the mod to reveal his role implies that his role wasn't actually revealed when he claimed.

[DarthYoshi]

Currently working on a VCA that I think should narrow down the potential pool of mislynches--its giving me lots of townreads. I'll have more in a bit.

[DarthYoshi]

Okay--the numbers of the VC's are in reference to the ISO # (of Substrike) in which the VC occurs. This VC is focused mostly on Ald and WK, and they yield some significant townreads. This is a bit of a wall, but hopefully an informative one.

#5: WK is voting Ironhead, Alduskkel is voting me. In both cases are scum voting players that everyone else should have on strong townreads by this point (in my case, I would cite Mastin's argument on his own behalf--unless you think I was executing a double-bus on D1, I'm town.)

#7: WK is voting Jily (this be about the time jily was screaming 'easy lynch,' and we now know she is who she said she was. (PS: Jily, welcome to my modding blacklist.) Ald isn't voting.

#9: Ald's vote goes back to me, WK's goes back to Ironhead. Since the two known scum have shown a reluctance to bus early, this should almost completely clear Ironhead as well as myself. Additionally, and this is important--Spitfarvle (who will be replaced by Soben) is the only vote listed on WK. Given that the other two scum aren't bussing, I have to think that Spit was town, unless he simply didn't get the no-bussing memo.

Mastin, this means that Soben is probtown. You should remove your vote.

#12: Ald's vote goes to CC--given what I note just above, this is actually a strong point in favor of CC being town, because Ald hadn't bussed yet, and it would make no sense for him to try to gin up a wagon on one scumbuddy in order to try to divert attention from the current wagon on the other buddy. CC is almost certainly town, Mastin was correct on that one.

#17: WK is at L-2, and Ald still hasn't bussed, which to me says his vote on WK was more a last resort, and in any case, the WK wagon at this point has two confirmed town (jily and SP) and three obvtown (me, Ironhead, Mastin). WK moves vote to SP, a player we now know is town, so bussing still isn't something scum seem willing to do for towncred.

#26: Brokenscraps (to become TS) hops on the WK wagon. This *could* be a bus if broken replaced in, saw a buddy in danger, and felt the need to reap immediate towncred. But I think TS's entry into the game is townish, so on balance, that slot is fairly nullish now.

#27: Here's why Broken's vote looks like a bus--he immediately jumps off to join the TWIE wagon--makes sense for a scum if they see a possibility for an alternate wagon. This hypothesis would mean Xvart in TWIE's spot is town, and TS is scum.

#29: At this point, Ald goes for the bus, and I do think he is the only scum on the final WK wagon. As for the TWIE wagon, it is worth noting that WK does not change his vote to the rival wagon in an effort of self-preservation, which is a scumpoint to Xvart. If the TWIE wagon is in fact scumdriven, it was probably by broken/TS or alex, but alex looks more town on D2 than he did on D1.

At the time of the final D1 VC, the possible scum candidates to me are (excluding Ald): Elsa, Broken, Alex, and Xvart. On to D2...

D2, #50: Ald waits for a long time to vote, but eventually decides on Alex. Given Ald's reluctance to bus on D1, this is a townpoint for Alex.

#55: Ald moves from Alex to CC--smacks of self-preservation, but as I noted earlier, CC is probtown now.

The D1 lynch wagon consisted of: Mastin2, jilynne1991, Alduskkel, Ironhead, Darth Yoshi, Secret Project, Soben. Two confirmed town and one confirmed scum. I believe the rest of the players on this wagon were town, and that the third scum was off the WK wagon.

The D2 lynch wagon consisted of: Mastin2, Twistedspoon, Wiredalexv, Darth Yoshi, Xvart, CC. No confirmed town or scum, BUT it gives us a player who was on neither lynching wagon: Elsa. Her scumminess is compounded by the reality that despite her back and forth with GK and Alex, neither Ald nor WK ever really suspected her. I'm pretty sure she's the final scum. Even if I'm wrong, I think the town has this in the bag and can find the final scum pretty easily through PoE because there are too many probtown players for the scum to handle with NKs.

tl;dr:

Strong townreads (aka I will fight tooth and nail against their lynch): Ironhead, Mastin, Soben, CC, Alex, and me (duh).
Null, maybe null-leaning-town: TS, Xvart
Scum: Elsa

Vote: Elsa.

[DarthYoshi]

I can't think of a single reason why Ironhead would fakeclaim in a situation like this as scum--he'd be lynched tomorrow if we strung up xvart and he flipped town. And Ironhead doesn't strike me the type to fakeclaim cop as a VT (right, Mastin? ).

Ergo,

Unvote. Vote Xvart. This is L-2.

However, if you are a cop, and Ironhead is lying for whatever reason, you should claim in your next post. I don't want to see Xvart hammered until everyone has had a chance to counterclaim Ironhead.

[DarthYoshi]

Actually, you know what, I realized I don't care that much if Xvart gets hammered first.

But if you are a cop, you should CC.

[DarthYoshi]

^Yeah, I'm not buying it. You say you don't know if the person before you crumbed miller, but clearly you didn't crumb miller, or you would have said so, and by saying you don't know if TWIE crumbed it, you're implying that crumbing it would have been the correct course of action if you hadn't out-and-out claimed (this also assumes that TWIE would have held similar theory views regarding millers claiming on D1).

In any event, you'd probably get policy lynched before LyLo anyways just because you do have a claimed cop guilty on you, so if we're going to lynch you anyways, might as well be now.

You also focus solely on explaining the guilty scan--you still have offered no thoughts on who the final scum might be, which makes me think you already know the answer, and it's you.

FTR, Elsa's vote was, I think, L-1.

[DarthYoshi]

GG, everyone.

DarthYoshi, there's very little I can suggest to you in terms of improving because you actually played a damn good game, the only suggestion I can make is that you seemed slightly reserved and unsure on your reads and you shouldn't be.

Thanks. This was a big improvement over what you saw from me in Open 289. That game, combined with another game I was in that was the worst performance I turned in as scum, led me to taking a brief hiatus from /inning into new games to just clear my head. I think that break did a fair amount of good.

I did do a fair amount of second-guessing of my reads, but with the exception of going back and forth between Ald and CC on D2, it was often second guessing between different scum--on D1, after I got over Alex, my vote was always on one of the three scum slots. (Not to pat myself on the back or anything )

Ironhead and Mastin both turned in great performances for the town (Ironhead's townread on Ald aside), though Mastin's performance had the side effect of pissing me off. I still probably need to take a break from playing in games Mastin is in, but this wasn't as traumatic as the last game we had together. Although, for the record, both of my perfect town wins have now come in games that he was in, so maybe I should keep playing with him, but only in games where he's convinced I'm town.

Jily has been blacklisted. This is the second game in a row I've had with TWIE where he acted like a complete jerk. The rest of y'all I would love to play with again anytime.

@Mod: You did well despite the late flakes by players and you being sick. This was a well-run, enjoyable game. Much thanks.

[DarthYoshi]

mastin, I still stand by the notion that your case on us was terrible. But it's not your job to be convincing, I guess.

FTR, this is not the first time I've seen a D1 lynched scum complain that Mastin put a terrible case on them. But Mastin still got them lynched.

Mastin can be infuriating to play with, but his play here was better than I think you're giving him credit for.

Also, not to put too fine a point on it, but as soon as you/worm asked me if I was afraid to be NKed, you absolutely deserved to be the D1 lynch.

[DarthYoshi]

I would second the request to see the mafia qt.