Mini 380: Artifacts- Game over

[Zindaras]

Random Vote: Conflux

[Zindaras]

FoS: perfect

for voting seriously, using non-serious reasoning by other people.

[Zindaras]

Unvote, Vote: Jules

Casting the 4th vote over a minor slip is something I disagree entirely with.

[Zindaras]

You're focusing on the wrong man, obviously. Jules is scum.

[Zindaras]

Unvote: Jules, Vote: lunalovegood

If casting the 4th vote is scummy, then casting the fifth is even worse.

I want to know exactly why you put on that vote, luna.

[Zindaras]

Well, you replaced me in Goats...

That's all, I think. Personally, I haven't played a lot with any of the players, though I have played in at least 1 game with quite a few of them.

[Zindaras]

*sighs*

If my memory serves me well, I was gunning for luna.

[Zindaras]

As far as my memory goes, there was nothing we lost, except some attacks on Jules and a discussion between Nai and Coron.

[Zindaras]

I'm still voting luna, because I still think she was vote-hopping very blatantly before the crash. She hasn't done anything to convince me otherwise.

[Zindaras]

The whole problem for me was that you didn't back it up.

[Zindaras]

We've had this discussion in the lost days, as far as I can remember. HackerHuck and I voted Jules for casting that vote, and Jules provided a good defense.

[Zindaras]

Something about that post rubs me the wrong way. It's a little too dismissive and relies on lost discussion.

Let's try and refrain from too much referencing of what we did pre crash, especially now that so much time has passed. I don't seem to recall placing a vote on Jules, but I can't really rule it out.

If this scenario did play out as Zindaras remembers, it would be nice if Jules could "re-explain" his vote.

Well, to be honest, with the second crash, I want a re-explanation as well, because my memory of what happened pre-crash has completely failed by now.

I do not consider Jules scummy, but a re-explanation would be useful for later.

[Zindaras]

Personally, I'm still happy with where my vote is. Luna's been lurking, and what she has said was pretty scummy. I'll have to reread the entire thread for Nai/Jules info, though.

[Zindaras]

Still playing. Also,

Unvote

, seeing how luna's going to be replaced soon. I do expect her replacement to provide more input, however.

[Zindaras]

Okay, I've reread the entire thread, and I'm suspicious of Nai (for being extremely aggressive towards Coron, literally trying to make everything he says scummy, even when it's obviously not) and perfect/luna (both for making really odd votes on Coron).

[Zindaras]

I've told conflux the site's up again.

[Zindaras]

I'm still doing the same as in my last post (waiting for replacements for luna and perfect).

But, while we're at it, and we've got you two here, what are your opinions on luna and perfect?

[Zindaras]

I just posted a question for the two of you, mind answering it?

[Zindaras]

Well, good to know.

They're pinging my scumdar a lot, though. I would seriously be surprised if neither of them were scum.

You don't consider the way they jumped on the original bandwagon scummy?

[Zindaras]

Yeah, I know. I'll probably be voting Nai (as I think the way he's been attacking you is scummy), but I always like to see if I can get some links between people, or drag out opinions.

I'm not sure how many people will be happy for an opportunity to replace into this game, to be honest. I'd like to hear some more from HackerHuck and Nightfall, specifically. If I'm correct, they've managed posts in other games.

I've also noted that Green Liquid seems to suspect both, which I find an odd stance.

[Zindaras]

Zin you think Im scum in everygame.

I would post more but
1- Coron and Nai have sort of taken over the thread with their debate. I dont find either overly scummy.
2- I have been very clear that I want to lynch Con, other than that Im not sure.

Uhh...I've clearly stated that my current suspects are Nai, luna and perfect.

I've agreed with Zindaras for most of the game, so I don't really suspect him. I did find it odd that he had originally felt Jules was scum - only switching his vote to Luna for being scummier - and then he turned around and said he didn't find Jules particularly scummy. This was right after Jules' strange attack on Nai.

The lost posts were in between, right? Jules posted a couple of things that gave me a town vibe but are now lost.

To be honest, Jules really needs to get more active.

I'm also surprised about the unvote. Being replaced doesn't wipe out Luna's actions.

You have a point here, but I like to give replacements a little time to get into the game before voting them. Though, personally, I'm starting to doubt if we'll ever even get a replacement for either of them and am starting to think if it wouldn't be a good idea to just outright lynch them.

[Zindaras]

Replacements! Yay!

I'm looking forward to hearing CTD's and Kelly's opinions. Kelly's, especially.

[Zindaras]

Obviously I'm most interested in your opinions, since I find the guy you've replaced scummy.

[Zindaras]

I found Zindaras' constant pursuance of the person I replaced, lunalovegood, extremely odd throughout the whole game especially with this argument going on. I have some theories but all I will say on this subject right now is:

Zindaras: What is your opinion on the Coron vs. Nai debate?

As I said before, if I have to vote either, I'd vote Nai.

I find it somewhat odd that you focus on my pursual, when I'm not the only one pursueing you..

[Zindaras]

EBWOP: Coron's playing as usual, and the early game wagon which put him at Lynch-1 reeks of scum. I don't think I've seen Nai play like this in any other game.

An interesting thing to note, by the way, is that in Space Monkey Mafia, an early bandwagon also showed up, and the person who put the guy at Lynch-1 and then tried to slip back into lurkerdom also was scum.

[Zindaras]

I remember that Coron replaced me in Goats because of my vacation, and he nearly got the role lynched, even though it was a Doc. I'm not sure about his playstyle that game, though.

[Zindaras]

Meh, I've done what Coron is saying before. Multiple times, in fact. Always as town. It tends to pay off in the long run.

[Zindaras]

Next, I'm not lurking now, and neither was luna, she was just inactive. The very point that me and luna have different actions shows that there are different playstyles so I see no idea why you brought that up in the first place other than to subtly discredit me.

Vote: Zindaras

Luna's playstyle is comparable to bird's. You would act differently in that situation as well.

Kelly's and SL's actions are only furthering me in my beliefs that they're both scum. I find the HackerHuck vote unsettling, and SL is being overaggressive, in my eyes.

[Zindaras]

HackerHuck: Off the top of my head you're scummier than Jules and Zindaras. Though I would love to know what is "unsettling" for Zindaras that I voted you. You'd think I voted someone not in the game or something...

I'm suspicious of the person you replaced, and you hop in and vote someone I don't find scummy at all.

It reassures me in my thinking that I was right about both perfect and luna.

[Zindaras]

Sorry for trying to catch scum while the town has been enveloped in taking camps and cheerleading while Nai and Coron duke it out.

I've been saying luna and perfect are scum all along, but they needed replacement, so I didn't vote them when I returned. Before the multitude of crashes, I, and others, did attack other players, but Nai and Coron simply picked the game up again quicker after the crashes.

[Zindaras]

Zindaras... Wth. Haven't you heard of newbs? How could you possibly get a read on perfect?

Vote:Coron

for above mentioned reasons.

oops, I read something incorrectly.

unvote

I'm going to hold off my serious vote for now.

These two posts give me one hell of a scumfeeling. The first one is a blatant bandwagon vote which he's trying to put off as a normal vote, in the second one he's doing a blatant attempt to jump off the wagon without making too much fuss and without getting attacked for it, doing off the original vote as a joke vote, which it clearly wasn't.

[Zindaras]

suspicious

:
Zindaras - for similar reasons. He says he's sure that both Luna and perfect were scum (or reassured, at least), when neither of them has contributed even remotely enough to get an opinion on them, even less reassurance.

*shrugs*

That's what they always say. Then I turn out to be right and I get a good laugh.

The posts I quoted from perfect are classic scum-behaviour. Hopping on a bandwagon, then getting off as quickly as possible when it turns out people don't like your bandwagoning.

Luna put Coron at Lynch-1. I don't think any Townie would've done that.

[Zindaras]

Hey Stewie, don't you think the votes cast by perfect and luna are typical for new scum?

Yeah, he's overreacting a bit, but I'm not seeing it as typical of new scum...

[Zindaras]

*pouts*

I still say I'm right, but I guess I won't get anywhere with them today.

Anyway, I decided to do a reread to take a look at Jules's scumminess. And the first 5 posts made me giggle. These are 4 of them:

Random

vote: Nai

Ha bad mistake coron, baaaaaaaad mistake

unvote nai, vote coron

I'm back on the site

unvote Coron

FOS Nai

- I can't remember the reasons for voting you before and I think it would be unfair to vote without any evidence, but I know you looked suspicious

vote Nai

Reading his posts in isolation also make me realize how little he has commented on. He's mostly been busy with Nai, and he hasn't voiced

anything

regarding

anyone

else.

I'll agree that Jules is quite scummy.

Unvote

(if applicable),

Vote: Jules

. I believe that puts him at Lynch-2.

[Zindaras]

a) Because of a random vote
b) Because I voted for Coron when it appeared he may have inside knowledge, at the stage of the game where everyone is trying to find their feet, get some talking going
c) Because I came back to the site and unvoted Coron who I hadn't been voting for anyway at the time of the crash
d) Because I put my FOS on Nai because I had been voting for him during the crash but didn't have any evidence to put my vote back on
e) Because I decided to put my vote on Nai

I find the difference between 303 and your previous posts slightly disconcerting and the ease with which you change your mind on me is slightly worrying. One minute, you don't think I'm particularly scummy, the next you're putting me to a lynch -2. If I get lynched, I would appeal to the town to look closely at Zindaras. Bit too easily swayed opinion there when it really matters

f) You haven't said anything about anyone but Nai and Coron. I think that's exactly what scum would want to do, especially if they're both town. If everyone focuses on just them, the (rest of the) scum can just sit back and relax.

F is my main reason, together with your voting behaviour, and I'm amused by the fact that you're ignoring it, even though it was in the post you quoted.

[Zindaras]

Maybe because until about 4 pages ago, everyone else just sat back and watched, including yourself, checking in every so often to ask questions about things that had been said in the debate, or giving an opinion on what was happening

I've been gunning for you, luna, and perfect. HackerHuck gunned for you and luna too.

To say that there was nothing else going on is a misrepresentation.

[Zindaras]

EBWOP: The reason I cite my own and Hacker's behaviour is because those are the first two that jump to mind.

[Zindaras]

Zindaras - You latched onto Perfect for lurking, what do you think about Green Liquid's extended absence?

I latched onto perfect more because of the 4th vote on Coron and then quickly trying to slide off the bandwagon. I did do a reread of GreenLiquid, and I'll have to say that I don't really like it. Then again, I don't like it when people don't contribute, in general.

It's a little late here right now, so I'm in no condition to say anything about his alignment, though.

[Zindaras]

I don't see how a mass artifact claim will help us in any way, to be honest.

[Zindaras]

Hmm, I'm afraid I got a bit out of touch on this game.

Unvote

.

The Ear of the Diviner...

It looks believable enough.

For me, I'm still thinking Kelly or ShadowLurker right now, as I'm still suspicious of them. I need to do another one of those rereads, though.

[Zindaras]

Vote: ShadowLurker

Don't like the way he's jumping on HackerHuck. Coupled with my heavy suspicion regarding luna, that's enough for me to vote him.

[Zindaras]

This is bullshit and you know it, you're just looking for an excuse to jump on me again because now I have momentum.

Momentum? Hardly. I'm simply voting you because I have been suspicious of you all thread. You've always been pretty much my top suspect, and I believe that's more than clear enough. With Jules not getting lynched, I'm back to you.

[Zindaras]

Pretty sure it IS because I have any sort of momentum going on me now, and Jules doesn't.

There is noone with any momentum right now. The reason why I voted Jules as that time because he was the only plausible lynch target who I thought was scummy. Right now, there are no real plausible lynch targets, so I'm going with who I think is scummiest.

[Zindaras]

I should also do a reread. Meanwhile, I might as well

unvote

. Once I get a chance to do a reread (I have the time now, just not the energy) I'll place a vote. There's an interesting discussion between SL and HH/Zindaras, so I should be able to pick something out.

This reeks of "I'm scum and I'm waiting to see which side gets the upper hand so I can choose later".

[Zindaras]

Not only did perfect and luna cast very scummy votes, they also attempted to get off the bandwagon without arousing more suspicion. Some huge scumtells right there.

[Zindaras]

luna's unvote was lost during the crash.

[Zindaras]

Luna's last post attacking Coron was on October 16th. October 27th, her vote has disappeared from Coron. According to my own post there, luna vote hopped in the lost posts.

[Zindaras]

*sighs*

I wish I could restore the posts lost in the crash. I'm 100% sure luna made me think she was scummy in the lost posts.

As I said, she vote-hopped in the lost posts. The fact that she went back to voting Coron later is irrelevant at that point.

She put the 5th vote on Coron, Page 2, Day 1, for being "scummy" and "too sure of himself".

That's a huge scumtell.

The game you linked to is not at all comparable to this game. Her early votes were random there, when here she came out with a random vote (note how she used a dice roll in the other game, and not here). She did not play in a similar way. Her voting behaviour is different.

[Zindaras]

Tough crowd. I just saw that he said he was eager to hear from me.

How is that suspicious?

Have you ever heard of a joke?

1) It's not smart to answer questions for others.
2) That most definitely does not look like a joke.

[Zindaras]

You are correct in me playing on hunches a lot in this game. It's a side-effect of my suspicions being based on hunches.

[Zindaras]

It's simple: if I'm wrong, I'm scummy. If I'm right, I'm towny.

[Zindaras]

Ah, yes. I don't usually bother with that, though. Scumcatching is the first priority of the townie, and it's always my first priority. When all the scum is dead and the game is over, you don't have to worry about looking like town anymore.

[Zindaras]

I think I said this when Jules claimed, but I'm not sure how much we should use artifact claims to determine alignments.

[Zindaras]

MaMa isn't even in this game.

I say it's Shady-Kelly. Third one I'm not certain about, but I think it'd be Nightfall or Stewie.

[Zindaras]

Ah, so the vote count was inaccurate.

[Zindaras]

I voted Jules during the lost posts, so my vote for him was not sudden.

I have, in fact, weighed in on most of the important topics. I feel the entire Coron-Nai debate is completely pointless. While I'd know who I'd pick if I'd have to pick one of them as scum, their argument comes off as an argument between two townies. It's the people 'wagoning right onto it that have to be looked out for, so luna and perfect.

[Zindaras]

luna and perfect have both been replaced. So I take it you are still talking about their Coron votes on page 1-2. It strikes me as though nothing of interest has happened for you since then.

Not a whole lot, no. The ongoing Coron-Nai debate hasn't piqued my interest at all. Jules was fun for a moment, but his claim seems townish enough (even though the situations raised my suspicion).

I've read the analyses and I don't feel like I'm able to add a whole lot to them. Personally, I thought GreenLiquid's was good, and I think he's town for it.

I feel Stewie/MaMa's posting is slightly off, so I'm keeping my eye on him.

[Zindaras]

I've seen both scum and town use the argument.

However, I'm not particularly afraid of your assertion that I should be lynched if Nai comes up scum, as I trust my gut on this issue.

[Zindaras]

Misrepresenting me.

*shrugs* Semantics. You're saying what I said was a huge scumtell.

As I said, it is entirely irrelevant, in my eyes. There's already two scum accounted for, and the chance that Nai is the third one is, to be honest, negligible.

I'm, well, 99% sure about Kelly (perfect), as perfect's tell was pretty huge, and I'm about 80% sure about ShadowLurker (luna), as luna's tell could, possibly, be from a town. However, I deem that very very unlikely.

For the rest, I'll see if I can get a reread in sometime. I'm getting a week off after today, so I should be able to.

[Zindaras]

Is the corollary also true? If we lynch you and you turn up scum, does that also mean we should aim our next lynch at Zindaras? The more you two go at it, the more appealing this scenario becomes...

Huh? This doesn't make any sense at all.

Vote:Coron

for above mentioned reasons.

oops, I read something incorrectly.

unvote

I'm going to hold off my serious vote for now.

First two posts.

First post is 'wagoning onto Coron, supposedly on other people's reasonings. Second post is attempting to get off the wagon without anyone noticing.

Pure, distilled, scumtell.

[Zindaras]

Coron understood what I was trying to say. My point was only that the reasoning behind Coron's plan would also support a lynch of Coron.

Sorry, I completely misunderstood it. I get it now.

No vote has been placed on Perfect/Kelly since you went after Luna. You find Kelly to be 20% more scummy than Luna and the reasons you give are from his first two posts of the game. Has Kelly done anything to sway you either way and why have you not - up to now - pressed for a lynch of Perfect/Kelly if you are so certain?

Lethargy.

As I said, I need to get a reread in and make a bigger case.

[Zindaras]

Zind, I've just been looking over some posts and I wanted to ask something...

You state that you are 99% sure that Kelly/Perfect is scum and 80% sure that Shadow is scum.

If we were to lynch either of them with the terms that if they came up town we would lynch you tommorrow, would you be willing to do that?

You realize, of course, that if two of us are town, you may be setting us up for a 1-2 mislynch?

While I feel that "If X isn't scum, we should lynch Y" sentiments are usually flawed and don't really like planning multiple lynches ahead, I'd accept your offer if we wouldn't lynch either of them if I didn't.

Regardless, I really need to reread this game.

[Zindaras]

*shrugs*

I feel that never really should be a subject. Every accusation places you in danger from Mafia (or maybe Vig) killing. I get killed just after attacking one or two Mafia members an amazing amount of times.

[Zindaras]

Is your memory of pages 1-2 getting shaky?

Usually when players use the "overstate certainty" tactic they don't undermine themselves by saying they need a reread. It's dishonest/unhelpful of you to be willing to gamble on a "lynch them, then lynch me" proposition when you don't have the certainty you're talking about.

I don't need to reread Page 1-2, just the posts after that.

Noting how these suggestions are "usually" flawed is some transparent BSing. You're the one who should be able to decide that the proposition is good and harmless in this case. If I'm scum then what's the holdup? Why let a mafia "rule of thumb" stop you?

unvote

I'm not so stupid to assume that I can't possibly be wrong. That would be needlessly arrogant.

[Zindaras]

If my memory's serving me well, I've seen the role both as scum and as town. The difference is usually that the town version blocks everything and the scum version blocks everything but the Mafia's kill.

Err, actaully, I know I've seen it as both scum and town. Both were lynch triggers, though.

[Zindaras]

I've got a horrible headache, I'll try to get something for you guys tomorrow, but sleep now.

[Zindaras]

Phew, the innards of my head are feeling better.

People, HackerHuck is most definitely not the correct play for today.

[Zindaras]

Unvote, Vote: Nai

. I'd like pretty much any lynch more than Hucky's right now. I'm still working on my analysis.

[Zindaras]

Time to try an analysis:

Post 10, Post 14, Post 16:
Start of the whole Nai-Coron debate.

Post 19, Post 20, Post 21:
Perfect votes Coron for no reason. HackerHuck calls him out on it and Coron states that perfect is scum.

Post 27, Post 30:
Apparently, Nai and Jules feel that the slip-up hints at scum.

Post 36:
Perfect attempts to ease his vote off Coron.

Post 42:
Hucky asks Jules if the "slip-up" is worth Lynch-2.

Post 43:
luna jumps on the Coron-wagon, for "seeming to act a bit scummy and too sure of himself".

Post 44:
Claim! D: D:

Post 46:
Further attempts from Hucky to counter the Coron-wagon.

Post 51:
luna explains her vote.

Post 52:
Nai's reasoning for voting Coron. Since when was arrogance a scumtell?

Post 72:
Hucky's thoughts on the game so far.

Blech, *abandons linking to posts*

Stewie's the first to go after Jules. In retrospect, this looks a bit weak. Then we get another exchange between Coron and Nai, Post 115-118. Again, Hucky seems very reasonable in Post 119. In Post 121, Nai FoSes Hucky for this, which I find odd. The exchange between Nai and Hucky afterwards only has me lean more and more to Hucky as town. Post 162 once again doesn't look very good from Nai. Here's Post 171:

My biggest reason? Being completely overconfident in himself with absolutely no reason to be so, probably, followed by defending Jules with a made up story.

Overconfidence is not a scumtell, and the second part was after Nai voted Coron to begin with.

Post 174 looks hypocritical, as Nai's been doing the same thing himself. Post 185 from Nightfall is very overdefensive. Stewie's inclined to change his vote to Coron in Post 190. Jules notes the hypocrisy of Post 174 in Post 195. It gets interesting around Post 205, because that's where Kelly replaces in. She just hops in and FoSes me. Post 210, Kelly's on Nai's side in the argument, but thinks that neither should be lynched, as they're the most active players. Post 212, Kelly says Nai should be able to make a stronger argument.

[sarcasm]Alright! Why don't we play mafia this way? LET'S ALL BE FRIENDS AND NOT ACCUSE ANYONE OF BEING SCUM AND SIT HERE AND STAGNATE FOR 3 MONTHS! Once all that is done the mod will put a 5 day deadline down and productivity will be up 600% for that but we'll still only get about 30 posts in that time and end up lynching someone mostly randomly. I love that style of play man. I wish we had more of that around here.[/sarcasm]

I wanted to restate this point because of the sheer irony.

Post 236-239 are interesting. First, ShadowLurker votes me, Coron then FoSes SL. 238, Kelly votes Hucky for being the scummiest Coron cheerleader. Coron then points out that you should vote the scummiest player, not limit yourself to a group. Post 246, Kelly states that Hucky, Jules and I are the Coron cheerleader squad. In 273, Kelly switches to voting Jules. I find Post 275 a bit odd. CTD puts Jules as newbie scum. Personally, I feel that if there is newbie scum in this game, it was perfect. Nai puts forth a scumgroup in Post 281, consisting of Coron, Jules, and Hucky, the last two mainly for interaction with Coron (and he felt Hucky was town). Then we get the Juleswagon, which ends in the Ear-claim. In Post 379, Nightfall proposes a partial mass claim of sorts. Post 414, SL says Stewie's scum. Post 415, Hucky agrees on Stewie. 419, SL votes Hucky. We then get a reread by GreenLiquid, which I still really like. Lots of debates spark up after that between GreenLiquid and others. MaMa replaces Stewie. Post 563 looks real good to me. Post 568 is MaMa's first real post. While he doesn't offer very much in the realm of arguments, it's worth taking a look at. Then we get an analysis from CTD in Post 572. Post 612, Kelly votes Hucky. Nai and Hucky claims, we have some discussion on those.

Blech, the quality gets lower the farther I get in the game, but meh.

Anyway, time to opinionate:

CrashTextDummie (Replacing conflux): conflux didn't do a whole lot. CTD, well, he made that big analysis post. He put Hucky and me as scum, SL as Town and Kelly as, I believe, probable town. I do not find myself agreeing with his opinions at all.

Coron: Has, in general, been playing Coronish. I don't suspect him for this. I think he's town.

GreenLiquid: Town. Made a really good analysis, and I find myself agreeing with that.

HackerHuck: Town. Deserves a Scummy if he isn't.

Jules: I'm undecided. I'd like to see what Apeiron does before deciding.

ShadowLurker (Replacing lunalovegood): luna made a pretty large scumtell in the beginning, and SL hasn't really been doing a lot to alleviate my suspicions.

Nai: Scummy. Claim's in the middle, and I do not like at all the way he's been attacking Coron throughout the way. His lynch is by far preferable over a Hucky lynch.

Nightfall: Lurker, as usual. I don't like the way he reacted to me calling him out for lurking (by saying I think he's scum in every game). That's a scumtell, though not a big one.

Kelly Chen (Replacing perfect62834): Perfect's early vote on Coron is a huge newb scumtell. Again, Kelly's not really giving off any townie vibes at all. I'm still convinced she's scum.

Machiavellian-Mafia (Replacing Stewie): Posted a very meh-ish analysis. That's the only thing we've seen from MaMa so far. Stewie gave off some scumvibes, but nothing really bad.

If I had to decide on a scumteam right now, it'd be CTD/SL/Kelly.

[Zindaras]

Wait... You'd call CTD/SL/Kelly as a scum team, yet you're wanting to lynch me? Very intelligent. Very.

No. I want to lynch any of those I put as scum, but since that is not feasible, I'm going to try not to lynch Hucky, because I feel much stronger about his townness than I do about yours.

[Zindaras]

There's always the option of 'no lynch', instead of "I don't think either of them are really scum, and I have other people I assume are scum, but I'd rather kill someone I'm not sure about than leave everyone alive."

Sorry, but I don't believe in No Lynches.

I want whoever it is that has this item to claim that they have it. If it really does give them immunity at night then they dont need to fear the mafia. If we lynch huck and he comes up town, then he must be telling the truth and you will have no reason to fear being lynched by the rest of us.

The guy with the immunity amulet shouldn't claim, because, that way, we can have the Mafia waste a kill.

Zind> Lurking as usual? excuse me? I post and comment whenever I can and there is something to be said.

You're not Mr. Active and you don't post that much. I generally view you as a lurkish type, and you're the same in this game.

[Zindaras]

But...but...but...Zindie's not supposed to be wrong!

*sad*

The absence of a kill can mean any of the following things:

-Nai's artifact blocked the kill.
-Nai's artifact didn't block the kill, but the Mafia no killed to make it seem like it did. (this is pretty Wifom-ish)
-The Mafia killed the guy who had Hucky's artifact.

[Zindaras]

Two is tangential. It goes like this:

Nai is scum. Nai has this artifact which blocks everything but the Mafia kill. Nai's artifact looks townier if it blocks the Mafia kill than if it doesn't. So Nai uses it and the scum no kill on purpose to make Nai seem townier.

As I said, I believe it's weak and based largely on WIFOM, but I also believe that all possibilities should be raised.

[Zindaras]

There were reasons why I defended Hucky. I felt that he was the voice of reason throughout most of the game. His opinions very much resembled my own. Therefore, I felt he had the same alignment I have.

[Zindaras]

EBWOP: The artifact I started with has nothing to do with the Diviner.

[Zindaras]

Coron, it'd be nice if you'd actually post some things other than attempts to get rid of Nai.

[Zindaras]

I expect Nightfall to elaborate on why he asked the question after everyone answers.

[Zindaras]

I'll see if I can get a reread in at some time in the future, or at the very least a look at some individual players.

[Zindaras]

How about we just vote Zindaras then and see?

Huge FoS: Apeiron

A quick View All Posts gives me a rather amusing view of what you've done.

All you've commented on for the entire game is Nai's claim. And you voted him. That's it. Narrow-mindedness and focus on one or two issues is a scumtell. Now you go and come out of nowhere to just suggest we bandwagon someone, and you don't even try to start it yourself, instead leaving that up to others.

[Zindaras]

Is Nightfall going to actually say why he asked the question or what?

[Zindaras]

Zindaras: What is your opinion of Nai, and why do you feel that way?

Scummy. Nai has been pretty active. I think his attack on Coron was scummy, as his logic was pretty bad and didn't warrant the agression with which he attacked Coron. Then there's his claim, which really goes both ways for me. The fact that there was no kill last night doesn't say anything about him.

[Zindaras]

EBWOP: I shouldn't post stuff before being finished.

However, my gut is leaning towards him being town, and I'm inclined to trust my gut on this one. I don't think the way he attacked Coron is evident of a scum-Nai.

[Zindaras]

Nightfall: Yes.

Still think Zindaras is scum.

MM is 2nd.

Nightfall is 3rd.

The Eye of the Diviner is a Cop, and I got that M-M is town, however, I was unable to leave my tent so I could not pass it. However, I will pass it tonight.

Anyway,

Vote Zindaras

.

If it weren't for the mod confirming you have the artifact... (though he didn't confirm what it investigated, I guess)

[Zindaras]

And MM, why am I scum?

[Zindaras]

You are joking, right?

Right?

[Zindaras]

Vote: Kelly Chen

Looks like backtracking from here. Coupled with original suspicions, I believe that a vote is warranted.

[Zindaras]

I do not believe it was a joke. I think that you didn't intend for it to be a joke.

[Zindaras]

Unvote

Sorry, I was under the impression that Kelly hadn't answered Nightfall's question earlier. But she did and said no.

I still think it's an odd timing and odd circumstances for a joke, though.

[Zindaras]

Hi. My gut says it's SL+Kelly+Apeiron.

My gut is very stubborn.

[Zindaras]

Vote: Apeiron

Clear scum.

I'll claim too. The artifact I started with was the Vanishing Slate, which is, essentially, a message-sender. I can send a message of 10 words using the artifact. I haven't used the artifact yet, as I saw no use for it. I've been waiting until we saw a Cop, so I could give the Artifact to him so that the Cop would be able to tell his innocent results to people without having to post them in-thread.

I also received Hacker's artifact, which is one of the reasons why I didn't want to lynch him.

If there would be any more case to respond to, I would respond to it, but there isn't.

[Zindaras]

Zindaras I assume you are claiming townie as your role from the lack of role claim in your post?

Oh, yes, sorry, forgot to mention that.

My artifact is not one-time use only. It's a Night ability.

[Zindaras]

You've misinterpreted my claim. I said it was not one-time use only, so not

one-use per game

. It is, of course, one-use per player, which is obviously why I didn't use it.

I intend to pass it to ShadowLurker tonight, obviously.

[Zindaras]

Also, I'd really like a deadline extension because it's pretty mean to be lynched over a misinterpretation and discussion is pretty good.

[Zindaras]

Coron, your opinion is appreciated, but a vote for Nai is, at the moment, completely irrelvant, if the deadline isn't extended.

[Zindaras]

Fair enough. I guess I'll just have to hope for a deadline extension, then.

[Zindaras]

EBWOP: I do, in fact, believe that Apeiron is scum, by the way.

[Zindaras]

Coron trying to defend Zindaras. FOS: Nai though.

Zindaras promises he truly believes the scum suspects he provides.

Zindaras, why is it so obvious that you'll pass your msg artifact to ShadowLurker when you believe he's scum?

Because apparently most people believe he's the Cop. Besides, he can't just go and fake a target, I think.

If you intend to pass it on tonight, would it not have been in some way beneficial to send someone a message in a previous night?

What am I going to send? "Hi, I like kittens"? I did not know that there was going to be a Cop claim and I wanted to be able to use it whenever I wanted to. Sure, if I had known that there was going to be a Cop claim (and I was going to pass it next night), I probably could've figured out a message to send, but I obviously didn't know that.

I'll make sure to write someone a nice little message before passing my artifact tonight (I do believe I can do that, though the passing and using rules somewhat confuzzle me).

P.S. Do you know if the recipient of the message is told who sent it to them?

Yes. They don't. I'd say that's pretty obvious.

[Zindaras]

IMO SL just indicated a valid point where Zindara's current plans won't be very effective. Zindaras are there any other benefits you can see from passing your message sender?

The Cop can send the message the Night after he investigated to keep the investigation results from the hands of the Mafia.

The entirety of the plan goes a bit like this.

Player A is the Cop. On Night X, he investigates Player B and finds him to be innocent and receives my artifact. He passes the Cop artifact to Player C.

On Night X+1, Player A can use my artifact to send a message with the name of the innocent investigation to someone he thinks is town and passes my artifact to Player C. In the meanwhile, Player C investigates Player D.

And so on and so on.

[Zindaras]

Why would that be pretty obvious?

Message-senders never do.

If someone got a message about someone being town or scum, how would they know that it came from a trustable source?

They won't, obviously.

[Zindaras]

Err, isn't the deadline kinda today?

[Zindaras]

I will probably use one of my artifacts and pass both. I obviously won't disclose which one I'll use.

It seems that I don't really have a choice right now. I'm under the impression it's Bogre or me right now, so I'm going with Bogre.

[Zindaras]

To the point that you would vote for him?

Obviously. That's pretty normal.

Unvote, Vote: Bogre

[Zindaras]

Why did you attempt to kill her? I don't remember you saying she was your main target.

This has raised my opinion of Coron, by the way. I am unsure what to think about the mass amount of deaths. I don't know what to make of that third kill. We already have a dead SK...

[Zindaras]

No, that's the second kill. That's Coron's one-shot thing.

[Zindaras]

Those numbers are completely made up, as far as I can tell. They're also numbers biased in your view that I'm scum. Yes, town wasting a lynch is bad.

But the numbers are correct from his perspective, and that's the most important thing here.

Let's compare the choices, statistically:

Lynch Kelly, kill Nai: (changing numbers to 0.75, 0.8 to make calculating easier)

Two dead scum: 0.75*0.8=0.6
One dead scum: 0.75*0.2+0.25*0.8=0.15+0.2=0.35
Zero dead scum: 0.25*0.2=0.05

One town dead: 0.25
Zero town dead: 0.75

Lynch Nai, kill Kelly:

Two dead scum: 0.8*0.75=0.6
One dead scum: 0.8*0.25+0.75*0.2=0.35
Zero dead scum: 0.25*0.2=0.05

One town dead: 0.2
Zero town dead: 0.8

As Coron himself said, the statistical better choice is clearly to kill Kelly, because that gives a smaller chance of killing a townie. Add to that the fact that Nai's lynch is probably easier than Kelly's (something not taken into the statistical analysis), and killing Kelly is clearly the superior choice.

I'm really starting to like a Nai/Apeiron lynch/scumteam, looking at their interactions.

[Zindaras]

Erm... Where, exactly, are you getting these numbers, exactly? Coron admitted all of his were made up. You're doing baseless calculations here.

They're sample numbers, they work as long as the one is greater than the other.

Exactemundo.

[Zindaras]

I could've taken whatever numbers I felt like, as long as one of them was greater than the other, the end result remains the same thing, and if the numbers are equal, then the choice is a choice between two equals.

[Zindaras]

But they mean nothing. The numbers are biased, they aren't equivalent to anything, and they can prove absolutely anything. I could use the exact same numbers for you two and prove the exact same thing.

I find this amusing. It basically says "I don't want to use the ability that kills ONLY SCUM on Nai, but if I had an ability that would kill EVERYONE, I would do use it on Nai."

You SHOULD have used it on me. There are only two results:

One: I'm scum, I die, the town has one less scum to deal with.

Two: I don't die, I'm cleared, and you just gave the town a confirmed townie.

I find it amusing that you didn't do it. The second would have happened, and we'd be much better off right now.

The numbers prove that his decision was the correct one from his perspective.

[Zindaras]

But the numbers are MADE UP. They could prove ANYTHING from ANYONE'S perspective. Therefore, they are MEANINGLESS.

The numbers are irrelevant. It's the foundation, that you have a bigger chance of being scum than Kelly, which is certainly true from Coron's perspective, that makes the Kelly kill the optimal move from Coron's perspective, which you said it wasn't. For you, the optimal move would be different yet again.

[Zindaras]

If he hadn't killed Kelly, we would've been in 7-player LyLo now. Your argument is simply an opinion. You may prefer a confirmed townie over a dead Mafiate, but others can disagree with you easily.

[Zindaras]

No, that's not what I"m saying. I'm saying that you've been gunning for me as mafia pretty much the entire game. But you get a chance to take me out, and you don't take it. That's fishy to me.

We've just gone through the numbers that prove that it's not fishy at all, because it is the correct move for him.

Also, looking at the death, couldn't that glass bottle have caused it? The glass bottle is empty, which implies that it was used. Maybe MaMa drank from the bottle and choked.

[Zindaras]

Where's GreenLiquid? Do we believe we're in LyLo? Should we mass claim?

I think we should answer those questions before going on a voting rampage.

I would, however, like to

FoS: Apeiron

.

[Zindaras]

I've already stated, REPEATEDLY, that the item would have no affect on me. That's the point of the entire argument. I was saying that Coron had the chance to use it on me, a person he's stated is scum the entire game, and didn't use it.

Which is the correct move.

I think Apeiron's eagerness is suspicious.

Mod

, where's GreenLiquid? Could you prod him?

GreenLiquid is the only one who hasn't claimed yet. I want him to claim. As soon as possible. Then I'll see about who I want to lynch (though I have a pretty good idea).

[Zindaras]

Please forcibly replace GL if he picks up his prod but doesn't post.

[Zindaras]

*grins*

My theory has turned out to be correct.

Doggy, how about giving your opinions?

[Zindaras]

I'll point this out, however. If we assume Coron is telling the truth, Dogmom is telling the truth, and I am telling the truth, three people that have used one-shot artifacts and claim to have no others, there are only three people excluded. Apeiron, who seems to be on just about everyone's list, Shadowlurker, and Zindaras, both of whom have been questioned at one time or another.

I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. All it looks like to me is the statement that if we assume three people are town, the other three could be scum, something you don't need a degree for to realize.

I'm fairly sure DogMom is part of the scumteam. GL isn't an idiot, and I can't possibly see him play the bottle artifact the way he did and still be town. MaMa got confirmed by the Cop and GL never warned him. Also, due to Apeiron's move against Nai, I don't think that they can be scum together, which leaves me with the inevitable conclusion that DogMom is scum. I don't think Coron or SL are scum.

[Zindaras]

I'll get to this stuff tomorrow, I haven't been purposefully avoiding you guys.

[Zindaras]

I assure you, I feel pretty bad about this.

I'm doing catch-up after working on a project. I'll be getting to this game soon.

[Zindaras]

I'm sorry. Stuff kept happening.

@ Zindaras: So I'm assuming that you believe there are 2 scum left, yes? For a start of 3 Mafia, 1 Serial Killer, and 8 Town? That's what I'm seeing in your most recent post, that you think Nai and I are scumbuddies.

We must assume the worst. Worst-case scenario, we're in LyLo. Therefore, we must assume that we're playing in LyLo. Of course, it's not that important, as one should always attempt to catch scum.

Next, why are you suddenly not thinking SL is scum? Through darn near the whole game you are hammering away at "luna's scum" and then when SL replaced her it was "SL is scum". Suddenly here you kindasorta indicate that he might NOT be on your scumdar after all.
In response to Kelly Chen's question about it, you reply "Because apparently most people believe he's the Cop." Why would most people have believed that? He was holding a one-use-per-person Cop

artifact

, that he'd already used. He reported a townie result on MM as the result of his use of it. He'd already expressed an intention to pass it on, as well.
This smells very much of "I'm going to go with what everyone else says so as not to ping their scumdar." Niiiiiice.

If you'd have read my earlier posts (see Post 584), you'd have seen that I was 99% on Kelly and only 80% on SL, as I felt perfect's tell was far stronger than luna's. Also, the fact that the mod confirmed that SL had the Cop artifact, and he apparently started with it as well, feels like a town-tell to me. Also, his posting since replacing luna has felt better, overall. You are right, though. I shouldn't be skipping over SL just because he has a Cop artifact.

He obviously chose the latter. From the indications given, I'm certain that passing artifacts is done through the mod, so it's not like GL could send Stewie (at the time) a PM saying "I'm passing you this BOTTLE OF POISON, DON'T OPEN IT UNLESS YOU'RE SCUM" or anything.
And exactly how would he indicate that in-thread without revealing all to everyone, and therefore rendering it completely useless? Maybe he thought Stewie might be scum, or might pass it along to someone else. I don't know.

The moment MaMa became a confirmed townie (or at least very very likely town), GL should have spilled the beans.



I feel Apeiron/Nai is the most likely scumpair at the moment. I can't remember Apeiron saying anything. Jules got off the hook with his artifact claim, but we must ask ourselves if his artifact claim is really that strong.

I'm fairly sure on Apeiron. The second one is more difficult. Nai, DogMom and ShadowLurker all have something going for them, and something going against them.

ShadowLurker had that early luna thing. The Cop claim is interesting and useful, though the way he handled the artifacts are a bit meh-ishly. Nai had the artifact claim, but I still feel he has been overall fairly scummy in his behaviour with Coron, and the artifact doesn't clear him, of course, since the Mafia could've no killed to help him out. GL's handling of the bottle is suspicious to say the least, but DogMom is trying very hard, and people who try very hard tend to get pro-town points from me.

I don't know. I think a deadline extension and an Apeiron lynch would be helpful, but if not, we should No Lynch.

[Zindaras]

I don't think I even attempted to use an artifact that Night.

Also, we're not definitely at LyLo. LyLo is worst case scenario, with 3 Mafia. Best case scenario is that there were only 2 Mafiates.

[Zindaras]

How can you say we're not at LyLo?

We

probably

started with 3 mafia. We've gotten rid of one. 2 mafia left. We have 5 people. One mislynch means it's 2 on 2, and we lose. We ARE at Lynch or Lose.

You defeat your own point.

Look, we should act like we're in LyLo, but just saying we're in LyLo is not a statement any townie could be able to make.



Also, SL, while your point is very valid, it's not one hundred percent full-proof. It assumes there are two scum left, which we don't know.

I'm not seeing the patterns you did. I'm going to have to think about it some more.

If Nai isn't scum and I'm not, I could've voted him and end the game. That's the way he looked at it. You can use the logic to determine the scumpairs.

[Zindaras]

SL, DogMom, Apeiron. All three have voted for Nai. An interesting situation, surely.

Also, Doggy, your logic is a bit flawed. The scumpairs aren't Nai+Anyone who didn't vote him. There's still possible bussing going on.

In fact, I'd say it's 100% sure that someone's bussing Nai, since everyone but me has voted Nai, and I'm about to do so and have expressed suspicion for Nai earlier.

All in all, to be honest, I really don't see any scenario in which Nai isn't scum. Coron's town-ness only solidifies his arguments against Nai.

Apeiron-SL is still possible, I guess, but in that case it's game over anyway, since Apeiron can just finish Nai off now.

Vote: Nai

Let's see what happens now.

[Zindaras]

You've got to be kidding me... I was right.

With all due respect, you weren't right at all. Your last suggested scumpair in 1097 was Coron+Apeiron. SL came in somewhat later, but that's it.



The game was funny, even if it took a long while. I bussed both my partners very heavily at the beginning, since I expected them to bite the dust pretty soon. Flabbergastingly, their tells went ignored. With SL and Kelly replacing in, I needed to relax my attacks. After I mysteriously survived D2's lynch, the N3 results really won us the game. MaMa's suicide coupled with Nightfall's death gave us an edge, even with Kelly's death. After that, only Coron was obvious death. The bottle made DogMom look horrible, Nai and Apeiron were scummy to begin with. With the town focusing on the wrong people, it was simply a matter of slipping through everything. I almost grew overconfident, as DogMom rightly pointed out that I did an 180 on SL, but I got away with it.

Anyway, great game, all. Thanks everyone for playing (and Norinel for hosting).