Open 53: Near-Vanilla - Game over!

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Vote: Shanba.

.

He's lurking before the game even started! Die scum die![/b]

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Well, let's pressure some lurkers then. If shanba has limited access, I'll leave him alone though.

Unvote, vote OpposedForce.

.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Can we

prod: everyone who hasn't posted?

. Particularly opposedforce, who has remained remarkably calm in the face of my intense one-vote pressure.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

The problem is, it doesn't start discussion. It ends discussion, because instead of discussing everyone, we're just discussing you. It is less than useless.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

I'm not sure what to do about DS. Ignore him? Lynch him? I can't get any kind of an actual read on him, and maybe that's the point. If so, I sort of want to lynch him on principle.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

I don't actually want to policy lynch him. I've just had two day 1's in a row with the clown, and I'm tired of him.

And to DS: Yes, you could be the doc. Whoever we put up on the stand

could

be the doc. I'm not even sure what your point is.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

My Internet access is going to be limited until New Year's, but I'll try to get on when I can.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Shrug. Shanba's attack on me is based on me calling for a policy lynch. Of course, I didn't actually do that. I just said I wasn't sure whether or not we should lynch DS, but I wanted to (my exact words were "on principle," which I suppose could be construed as suggesting a policy, but that's not what I intended). "Policy lynch" were jdodge's words, not mine. Take out the word "policy" from that statement and simply answer the question "Do you think lynching DS is a good idea?" Do you truly think that's an inherently scummy question to ask? Since 'policy' was a word jdodge put into my mouth, it seems a little unfair to hold me accountable over it.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Here is what he says here:
1) He doesn't know what to do about DS, whether he should be ignored or lynched
2)He can't get any read on DS
3)Maybe DS is deliberately trying to stop us getting a read on him
4)If that's the case, he maybe should be lynched on principle

That is pretty much what I said. What I meant, and perhaps should have made more explicit, was that we should either lynch DS today or move on with the discussion, because at the time there was no other discussion. I suppose we've chosen the move-on option, which is fine. I'd rather it not have moved on to me, but at least we aren't still discussing the player who I concede I can't get any read on, because he's being intentionally useless.

Shanba and phate are lining on opposite sides of the debate as rosswilliam. I don't find any of them terribly scummy. I don't particularly suspect skitzer either, but in my own defense, I will point out that I'm not the only one refusing to take a position. I do suspect the lurkers. Perhaps its just an effect of the holidays, but only about half the players are really discussing the game.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Hey, I'm not voting for rosswilliam, am I? Oh, he replaced opposedforce.
Actually, I think I'm ok with that vote.

Discuss (please?)

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

No one had said anything substantive for five days, and I hadn't for over a week. Running the substantial risk of pulling a DS, I did something slightly unusual in the hopes of sparking discussion. But actually, while I appreciate you defending me, ross, your play has seemed just a little off to me. You're

too

friendly for someone who is ostensibly scumhunting. And you seemed a little too confident that I was town.

Oh, and:

kinda makes me think your trying to start a bandwagon

Of course

I'm trying to start a bandwagon. What do you hope your votes accomplish?

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

but starting a bandwagon based on very little information is somewhat of a scumtell.

Generally, I'd say jumping on a bandwagon is more of a scumtell, but in any case, it is Day 1, and our information is always going to very limited.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

I still don't like ross' play much. Let's run him up a little more.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Well. . . we could lynch an inactive player. I'm having to suggest that in too many games, but it is an option.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

to all the people who are voting for me, i think it says something to my innocence that I'm still here posting and defending myself when it would be so gosh-darn easy for to slip into lurking and let the whole thing blow other.

It might have blown over before. I hope it doesn't now.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Besides the policy lynch

(again, not my words)

idea (which doesn't seem like a very pro-town idea), it shows that TSN wants to hear the general opinion on DS before casting his own judgment. It sounds like he wants to go with the flow (Shanba spoke about this quite a bit already).

This sounds vaguely like an argument for a lynch regardless of whether he's town or scum because he's annoying. Please correct me if I've misinterpreted this.

That's not terribly inaccurate. Whatever desire I had to lynch him was based on him being anti-town, which is not necessarily the same thing. . . but its a bit of a jump to both say that I was refusing to take a position on a ds lynch (which, admittedly, I kind of wasn't) and also saying we ought to lynch him whether or not he was scum or town.

As for the rosswilliam vote: I was being a little facetious with that line. I was going to vote for him, then noticed I actually already was because he replaced for someone I was voting for. This amused me a little. You don't have any comment on me then explaining my vote a whole three posts later.

And when five players have posted in two weeks, it might be time to take unusual steps to get the game moving. But as we're getting replacements in, I'll say I still support a ross lynch. Anything else?

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

He's been a little too buddy-buddy for my tastes. Its not much to go off of, but we spent the first few pages sucked in by DS's foolishness.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Me, mostly, when he defended me in post 131. But also shanba after he voted him. He's just too nice. Puts me on edge.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Korlash is simply annoyed that I already found his partner, and is running damage control to try and make sure I go down too.

Discuss.

False.

Korlash, I can assure you, the village idiot is that guy's MO. Which is why I got frustrated with him, which is why I made my fence-riding "I'm not sure whether or not we should lynch him" post, which got me in trouble in the first place. But he's getting replaced, and I don't think his playing like an idiot makes him any more likely to be scum.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Man, this day's gone on too long. I'm getting desperate to get someone lynched. The post that really sets me off wrong about rw is:

to all the people who are voting for me, i think it says something to my innocence that I'm still here posting and defending myself when it would be so gosh-darn easy for to slip into lurking and let the whole thing blow other.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

It was intended as a response to killa seven saying the same thing about korlash in the above post.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

It was

not entirely serious

. It doesn't really matter anyway, we have a deadline, so whether we want to get this day over or not, we don't have a choice.



I swear, I should stop being anything less than dead serious in mafia games.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Yeah, the no-lynch vote is either a brilliant scum gambit, or a genuine newbie mistake.

Unvote, vote melodyman23.

I don't particularly like the "jump on the bandwagon, get told it was bad, and jump right back off" play.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Do you think it was a scummy play or a newbie play from melodyman? Why does the no-lynch vote have to be a brilliant scum gambit?

Could have been a newbie play from melodyman too, but its one I find more disturbing than the no-lynch vote. I've never seen someone suggest no-lynch and not get voted, so it doesn't seem like a very smart play out of rw.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

This was in response to Ross Williams telling TSpN it might seem scummy to start a bandwagon based on little information. But the thing is, TSpN wasn’t the first one on this wagon. It would have seemed pointing that out might have been a more appropriate response, but it also may be that, responding to Ross Williams, TSpN simply accepted what RW had posted.

I think what we have here is a definitions issue. I think of "starting a bandwagon" as being the second vote on a wagon.

So TSpN responds to this post when it was made, doesn’t include it as part of the reason for his suspicions when asked why he is suspicious of RossWilliams, then puts it forth as what bothers him the most about RossWilliams much later. This looks less like scum hunting than victim hunting to me. As a matter of fact, that’s what most of TSpN’s behavior strikes me as, up to and including his current vote on MelodyMan.

Erm, what? So I said a post was scummy, then later called it out as being scummy again, and in between had a post about that player that didn't mention it specifically? Honestly, how is that a scumtell? What's my scum angle on that play? Sounds like, if anything, you're getting me on laziness because I didn't bother quoting it specifically in the middle post. I'll agree its a lazytell, but I hardly think that's exclusive to scum.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

In fairness, phate started with the meta business.

[quote="shanba" I had forgotten melodyman replaced ds. [/quote]

So I have a vendetta against DS? I thought I was distancing from him earlier.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Isn't that what you were arguing? Maybe I misinterpreted your argument, but I thought that was the point of your "I refuse to take sides" case.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

You said you had forgotten melodyman had replaced ds, and then voted me, I assumed you voted for me because melodyman had replaced ds.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Heh, I actually thought the deadline was still yesterday, and that I'd already been lynched. Could we at least get the fence-riders to commit to a position?

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

I generally support lurker lynches, I'm not particularly opposed to a jdodge lynch, and obviously I find it infinitely preferable to a me lynch. . . but the way this bandwagon is starting up is a little unusual.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Supporting Lurker Lynches is not pro-town, just in case you were under that impression.

I disagree.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Pressuring lurkers is good, but pressuring lurkers will only work if you are clearly willing to lynch them.

Also, I don't mean lurkers as in players who are completely absent, but rather players who aren't contributing, which pretty well defines jdodge's play.

And why don't you ask crub to elaborate?

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

How do you handle players who are posting without being helpful?

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Unvote, vote jdodge.

I still prefer a melodyman23 lynch, and if someone else votes for him, I will change my vote back, but as I would be lynched at deadline currently. . . well, my choice is clear.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Unvote, vote melodyman.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

skitzer, JDodge, TSN, care to share your thoughts?

The events of Day 1 confuse me. We had two townies on the stand, me and melodyman, (which I know you all can't know that, but bear with me), and out of nowhere, a third bandwagon pops up on jdodge. I'm not sure if this was borne out of town dissatisfaction with the available choices, or potential scum bussing with the expectation that jdodge wouldn't be lynched. . . in any case, I would not oppose another jdodge wagon.

Vote jdodge.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Er, or the less comical option that jdodge is scum and town were on his wagon.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

I didn't explain that very well in my first post, in retrospect.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

So your theory is that a faction of townies, revolted by the heinous lynchwagons set forth by the unholy scum, broke free of the repression and founded a new wagon in daylight on scum?

Viva la revolucion!

It seems improbable that it was a scum-driven wagon, in any case. Which doesn't mean that jdodge is scum, but its not like his play's been particularly pro-town, you know what I'm saying?

Of course, you (shanba) think I'm scum, so your mileage may vary.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Klebian hasn't done anything that's overtly tripped my scumdar. I'm not really sure what you see.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

I'm more likely to vote for Crub as I think jsut repeating something over and over and ignoring other's requests is scummy.

Is it really? Its not particularly helpful, sure, but its not like crub has a monopoly on that. Why are scum more likely to do that than town?

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Apparently, just about everyone. Crub, could you be more specific as to what you didn't like?

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

I'd just like to know what it is that I will either agree or disagree with.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

EBWOP: Because right now, I disagree. But I'm prepared to be convinced otherwise.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

If you disagree, fair enough, if you think that makes me scum, please explain.

There's certainly a middle ground in which I would prefer to get a reason why to agree. I don't see why you would not want to give a reason. I don't see why it makes you particularly scummy, as I can't really fathom why scum would not want to give reasons either.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

I have to say, if someone accused me, and refused to give any reasons, I'd probably get a little OMGUSy myself. I don't think its particularly

scummy

not to, if only because I can't figure out any particular reason why scum would be any more likely to pursue the play than town, but its certainly not very helpful.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

So, in other words:
Crub: kleb is scum.

Town: Why?

Crub: Because I say he is.

Me: No, for serious, why?

Crub: What, you don't agree with my stunning logic? You

and

kleb are scum.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

I'm feeling. . . ok about my vote. I'm considering crub at this point, it seems like he's being intentionally useless, which was about all we had on jdodge in the first place.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Unvote, vote crub.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

I'm voting crub because I find his play decidedly anti-town, and I don't have such a strong case on jdodge that I'm not willing to switch.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Ha, seriously?

I find a weak vote with a consistent refusal to explain why you're doing so anti-town. Its not helpful, its useless.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Doing anti-town things is a problem whether or not you're scum, and makes it more likely that you are.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

As you know very well. Who are you kidding?

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Which of those actions, precisely, do you have a problem with?

I hate the "opportunistic" scumtell. It means, generally, whatever the accuser wants it to mean.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

No problem. I mean day one first wanting to lynch Disciple Slayer on principle when he was acting badly, but only “sort of”, in a way that signaled it would be easy for your vote to move that way while striving to expose yourself as little as possible.

Disciple Slayer, a seemingly easy, not convincingly scummy target. And as we saw later, when MelodyMan was lynched, not actually scum.

This was discussed Day 1 too, and while I wasn't being terribly committed about it, the point was that we either needed to decided that ds' play was worth lynching or move on.

Ross Williams. A better suspect here, but once again one who seemed unable to mount a proper defense on his behalf and who you rode in a fashion that looked to me (you can check my previous post from day one on this) more like running down the sick antelope than trying to tackle a wolf.
Moving back to MelodyMan when it was clear the Ross Williams wagon had stalled. Finding a newbie getting easily spooked somehow more sinister than all of Ross Williams activities combined.

Well, he replaced ds. That was a factor, too.

That makes it seem very clear the Ross Williams vote was not one of conviction but just an easy target to aim at. You found an easier target and with flimsy reasoning moved your vote.

Put the rw vote in context. At the time, there were about five players actually playing the game. To some degree, I was just trying to make noise. And srsly, a Day 1 vote without conviction? That's unheard of!

Moving your vote to JDodge, the wagon on whom you had earlier questioned. Some justification here in that you said you were doing so to save yourself, but even as you move your vote you make a call for others to vote MelodyMan so you can move your vote back.

And why would that be scummy? My lynch preference, in order, went MM, jdodge, me. So I arranged my voting in such a way that I would not get lynched, which required moving my vote to jdodge, but when my vote could be better utilized on MM, I moved it back.

Day Two, you wake up and vote JDodge, even after being confronted with the results of a lurker lynch, even after questioning the wagon on JDodge on day one before joining it to save yourself.

We weren't voting mm because he was lurking. He started lurking when we started voting him. And besides, I really have no problem with lurker lynches Day 1.

You change from voting JDodge saying:

TheSweatpantsNinja wrote:
I don't have such a strong case on jdodge that I'm not willing to switch.


You had, precisely, no case at all, but on the other hand quite a few people had voted JDodge at the end of yesterday. Now there were people voting Crub.

There was one person voting crub. Do you have an issue with crub's play? Do you really find my 'opportunistic' play more anti-town than his?

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Oops, you're right, there were two people voting you. Sorry about that.
And OMGUS much?

Are you now agreeing that your day one vote on Ross Williams was without conviction?
If so, in what way was it lacking conviction?

I mean it was an early Day 1 vote, so it wasn't as, uh, convicted, as, say, my crub vote is now. I thought rw was the scummiest player when I voted him, but then as time went on, I began to be less convinced of it, and the whole no-lynch thing was (WIFOM, I know) sort of a stupid suggestion for scum to make. So when melodyman came in and bandwagoned him, I thought his play + DS play was a better place for my vote.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Not really. You first said I was suspicious when I didn't like that you weren't giving explanations. And I guess you're being consistently anti-town. Hooray for consistency?

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Heh. False. I guess its not OMGUS, crub, but I still haven't seen you make any kind of case. On anyone, really.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Unless, of course, that's exactly what he wanted to have happen. What kind of case has he made, really? "I'm going to spend most of the day being useless. If you say I'm useless, you must be scum!"

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Erm, and why is that shady?

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

So I'd bet pretty heavy on crub-scum with one of k7, justin, or neko as a buddy. In that order.

RW, shanba, etc. need to get on and pick a side.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

The irony of you claiming I haven't presented arguments is high.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

In shanba's defense, although he's wrong about me, he was replaced in another game I was in. So I don't find his lurking particularly suspicious. That said, I don't know about this game. My top suspect was lynched, and my second-top suspect was nked. I've sort of pretty much sucked this game.

Vote: skitzer.

I'd like your suspects as soon as possible.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Sorry, this game disappeared off my radar.

Quick thoughts:

Neko is probably town.

RW is likely scum, but may as well let him be replaced.

Vote: killa seven.

I've seen a slightly more protown version of k7 then the one he's presented in this game. I've also seen him play just like this and come up scum.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

TSN: What do you think of korlash's and justin's recent exchange?

Justin makes me nervous. He's posting a lot, and he hasn't done anything wrong, but he's almost too perfect. Which I'll grant is really just the too townie scumtell, so I'm not pursuing him at the moment, but I don't trust him at all.

Korlash is town, I think.

Shanba's case on skitzer > my case on k7.

Unvote, vote skitzer.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Sure. Um, well, I voted jdodge at the beginning of the day, but I didn't have much of a case on him. I mostly wanted to pressure him, which wasn't really working, and then crub started voting without explanation, and even when asked, not in an accusatory way, "make a case," refused to do so, and told me I was scummy for asking, I couldn't think of a reason why town would behave like that. Still can't, to be honest.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

It really would. You know what would help out with that?

Voting skitzer.

Mmm-hmm.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

I could get behind a klebian lynch.

Killa seven would be a good second choice as well.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Its more like this game dropped off my radar for lengthy periods of time. Of course, on the other hand, I am a genius.

Shanba's been pursuing me all game, though, I wouldn't read too much into it.

K7: Examples? Because, y'know, I was thinking the same thing about you. Also, klebian is third on your list. That's an interesting placement. I'm feeling a klebian-k7 group at the moment.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Did you really just pull out an appeasement reference, el? Is that some sort of complicated meta-joke? I hope so.

FoAM: Eldritch Lord

(Finger of Absurd Metaphors)

Also, shanba's case was the reason I voted for skitzer, so he hasn't been that behind the scenes. But I guess you've given that up to wagon klebian, which I support.

Korlash, if you don't want to be told to act protown, act protown.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

I can kind of get behind jtdyer's statement. There's not a specific post I can point to, he just feels. . . slippery.

But klebian or k7 are both better choices for today.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

I don't suspect el of being scum, I suspect him of being ridiculous.

this game isn't going anywhere and skitzer hasn't said anything of real worth in many weeks

vote: skitzer

i'll go with a worthwhile lynch

That sounds reluctant, and also kind of like he knows skitzer is scum.

Also, skitzer-klebian interactions:

D1: Klebian says a skitzer post is dumb, but doesn't vote or FoS him.
Later, klebian says a skitzer post is weird, criticizes it, but doesn't vote or FoS him.
D3: Klebian says he doesn't understand a skitzer point about k7. (700, I didn't remember to grab the post numbers from the d1 posts).

Then, post 751, where klebian, without once giving any sign that he suspected skitzer, hammers.

Anyway, the entire game, skitzer didn't mention klebian, literally at all. Klebian was a non-entity as far as skitzer was concerned. The only times klebian mentioned skitzer was to

correct

him, and then, of course, to hammer him.

Satisfactory? Because I think that's pretty damning.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

wow.. yeah that makes me want to get caught up..

Well fuck you guys then, I'll go back to luking if thats the type of shit I have to deal with.

Let me give you a hint: Lurking and this post are not pro-town.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

No, "not pro-town" is not the same as "anti-town." I'm not voting for you.

But if you aren't contributing, then we can't tell what alignment you are, (you haven't actually lost an arm, have you? Just an example?) and that's not pro-town.

Obviously, if you're V/LA, or completely absent and just need replacing, that's different.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

and who said anything about anti-town. I suppose the alignment comment counts for that one... But who said you were voting me? Seriously man you sound paranoid.

Because obviously if I thought you were scum, or anti-town, I'd be voting for you.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Obviously the skitzer not noticing me is key but I'm just trying to point out that what you noted was not unique on one side.

The skitzer not noticing you is key, yes. Same to everyone else who said "such-and-such hasn't paid attention to such-and-such." That may be true, but skitzer's the player who flipped scum.

Korlash: I'm not entirely clear why one comment about not acting pro-town has provoked such a storm, but when you say this:

So yoru saying RL stuff factors into alignment?

That sort of implies that you think I'm saying your scum, and since I wasn't saying that, I said so.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Beginning, inevitably getting bored and skimming through the middle, then concentrating on the last page of the game.

I mean I read beginning to end every single post thoroughly and take meticulous notes.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Vote klebian.

I thought I already was, but in any case, he remains the obvious next play after skitzer's flip.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Everyone ought to be voting in a manner that ensures a lynch.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Please vote for klebian before you depart.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Klebian: The fact that skitzer never interacted with you, never mentioned you, while you only barely interacted with him, suggests to me that you were partners.