Open 889 | Secrets of the Anuket Topaz | fin.

[Prism]

Hello everyone, I'm excited to get to play again after almost a year off. Some of you I recognize, many of you I do not, but I am looking forward to playing with you either way!

My work-life balance has changed drastically since I was last active and I am much busier than before. Concretely, I am aiming for somewhere in the realm of 5 to 10 posts per real-life day. Before the game was declared filled, I edited my /in to reflect this goal, so be assured it is neutral.

The takeaway: Reading into any future absence, or any unwillingness to engage in instantaneous and quick-paced conversation, is likely to be a mistake. In return, while I will not post often, I will try to make those posts count.

VOTE: Xegarus

As tempting as it is to revert to my old ways and Yeetdrasse, I'd like to give her the gift of inner peace and harmony. I will instead vote someone I am unfamiliar with. The tension!

[Prism]

Given my light posting, it might also be helpful to give a more substantive introduction, akin to something you might get out of RQS.

I've been playing mafia for over 13 years now across various mediums, and almost exclusively on MS the last 3 or 4 years. Traditionally, I am a scum specialist, but I grew very bored of the alignment after 2018, and I greatly prefer town rolls (Yay!). The puzzle element has appealed to me more over time, and I really enjoy the concept of harmonizing with and amplifying the strengths of other players, even though it rarely works out that way. I'm also glad to avoid the scum roll because I've grown rusty over time, and am no longer as willing to go as far as I once might have to control a game, so now I don't have the pressure of living up to my own high standards.

I like this setup a lot. I like games with a mountainous feel and minimum mechanics that allow us to focus on dayplay. The escape feature is a good compensation that encourages very dynamic and fascinating scumplay, and I like the possibility of being cleared, particularly at a time when I see myself being less concerned with instantaneous conversations and connections. The last time it was run, I played under the name Faker and managed to get some fairly accurate reads. While I'm not counting on it, hopefully I will be lucky enough to repeat the performance.

I also have no pronoun preference: refer to me however you like, so long as we can tell it's me!

[Prism]

The mafia killed Captain Dannflor, Firebringer. Do you believe the culprits should be allowed to run free?

Did you have any unresolved disputes with Dannflor before his demise? Are you indifferent to his death?

[Prism]

Originally, I was planning on keeping my vote on Xegarus at least until they post, then reevaluate at that point. I soon realized they were in a very different timezone from me and likely had not seen their role PM, but that was not enough to make me change. However, I am now less optimistic that they will be here soon as I further realized they have not been active in several days. I'm going to shift my vote to another non-poster I am unfamiliar with.

VOTE: gob

I'm happy to see Ydrasse having fun and I am amused by the Shirou Contamination Cube. I wonder why she started her interaction with me the way she did but I'm not really eager to press the point. It's all been a pleasant start to the game so far.

I think Snivy's posting is the most suspect so far beginning with the mechanical jump-in. I've found the jokes since funny, but he does feel like a scum player trying to go with the flow. I still prefer to take stock of the entire playerlist before I shift my vote somewhere with a touch more force.

[Prism]

I changed my votes because I wanted people to ask me about them so we could start discussion

You previously shifted your vote from me to Ydrasse. Did this have the same motivation, or were you reacting to something about Ydrasse's posts at that time?

Did you think about my commentary about Snivy before making the vote, and if so did you feel any kind of reaction to it?

[Prism]

I can't read and missed Shirou's original post. My apologies, you can ignore my #86.

[Prism]

My principal goals for this game are to have fun and to balance it with my real-world obligations. For people that do not know me, this might not seem revolutionary, but for players that do it is a colossal shift.

Usually, my attention to this game will come as a break during hours of very careful, thorough, and dry reading/research. I am not applying the same level of care to reading the game. There will be interpretation errors and dropped posts. I wrongly assumed your quote was T3's Camel vote, and my brain filled in the "blanks" in your post to be asking about T3's shift to Camel, rather than my own shift to Ydrasse. This was obviously erroneous and I caught it on review.

My posts are longer because of the 5 to 10 post goal. This is half life-balance, half because I am trying to change my posting style to be very explicit, focused, and meaningful. My entry posts, and this one, are meant to set that expectation stage before discussion gets more substantive.

I have never struggled with tone as scum.

[Prism]

VOTE: prism

My standards are low but not that low. You annoyed me. If your goal is anything else, consider changing tactics.

[Prism]

VOTE: prism

My standards are low but not that low. You annoyed me. If your goal is anything else, consider changing tactics.

Dragons and I have played many games together. His track record for reading me is almost perfectly wrong across the board. He is aware I have an overwhelmingly negative view of his play and style, even though I tolerate it.

My post was olive branch charity. There are two good reasons for him specifically to vote me that way with zero substance: annoy me and see what happens, and to see how others react. Both are valid reasons, and I want to provide crystal clear feedback. If he had any other ideas, or one was equal or opposite to his preferred outcomes, he can adjust.

[Prism]

Despite being like oil and water, I am very willing to cooperate and work with Dragons. Historically, I have gone to immense, if abrasive, lengths to do so.

I'm not saying my perspective and preferences are correct, nor that Dragons should defer to them and try to avoid annoying me. I do hope Dragons has a very base level knowledge of them and is utilizing that knowledge in a way that he finds useful, and I hope my feedback advances that goal.

[Prism]

and not sure why u consider std to be even scumreading u here when all he did was vote.

I never mentioned a scumread in my posts nor implied that it was a necessary motivator. My posts explicitly and repeatedly assert the opposite.

Spoiler: Curated record and explicit walkthrough

You annoyed me. If your goal is anything else, consider changing tactics.

This first proposes that one goal might be to annoy me. This goal does not require a scumread. As an alternative, it suggests the broadest possible range of goals: anything but annoying me. Taken together, these suggestions are the set of all possible motivations.

The set of all possible motivations includes every motivation that does not require a scumread, and I do think at least one such motivation exists.

There are two good reasons for him specifically to vote me that way with zero substance: annoy me and see what happens, and to see how others react.

Neither of these two proposed motivations, curated subjectively for quality, require a scumread.

I do hope Dragons has a very base level knowledge of them and

is utilizing that knowledge in a way that he finds useful

, and I hope my feedback advances that goal.

The bolded is very broad and does not cabin potential motivations to those involving a scumread.

[Prism]

I am confident the post successfully conveyed and accomplished what I wanted.

[Prism]

Is "You annoyed me. If your goal is anything else, consider changing tactics." an overreaction, or is it the depth of my explanation when prodded by Shirou?

I suspect you are inferring the annoyance is extensive and immense because I spent time walking Shirou through it. This would be a mistake: explaining how I stubbed my toe when prompted does not mean I felt more pain from it.

[Prism]

I am happy with the current pace of the game, with the caveat that I am eager for the remaining non-posters to chip in.

[Prism]

You don't seem particularly interested in pursuing the vote on me further than the original misinterpretation point alone, nor in questioning my claims about my recent thought processes.

[Prism]

The question wasn't whether you should ask me for more depth. The question was whether you believed them at all.

An alternate world Shirou, for example, thinks my framing of feedback for Dragons is more than sincere-but-cheeky and instead actively malicious on its face. He might call for more votes and cite it as scum-indicative. Another might claim my skim defense does not absolve the underlying issue, or that I overexplained, and goes more aggressive as a result.

[Prism]

This is #10, and thus my final post of the real-life day.

Once, I found myself lost alone in a desert on a hot summer day. After many hours of walking in vain, the wind whipping the sand about my slowly-burning skin, fortune spared me a chance meeting with another lost soul. I kindly asked if they would like to travel together and split the water supply to better our odds of making it out. They eagerly accepted the offer of companionship, but declined to split the water supply. We marched on. Day turned to night turned to day again, and I continued to travel with my newfound compatriot. Fatigued and tired from the walks, they increasingly leaned on me and asked if I would not mind carrying them just a bit further as a break. They would repay the favor later. I would sporadically renew my requests for water, even asking them to pay their debt this way, but these requests were denied, and my companion insisted the favor would be returned another way.

As the day wore on, I began to despair and grow frustrated. I had run out of water of my own, and neither of us were any closer to civilization. My companion continued to be capricious with their water and grew increasingly demanding as I had not yet led us to the city. Finally, after being told again that I should have found the city already, I snapped and attacked my companion, outraged that they refused to share water and yet had the boldness to ask me to solve the predicaments and challenges on their behalf. Desperate for any amount of liquid, my civil requests long denied, I began to squeeze my companion in search of blood. To my dismay, no matter how hard I squeezed, the body was inexplicably dry.

Fatigued and sun-beaten, I lay flat on the desert and weakly gazed up at the sky, horrified at my own actions. I turned my eyes to my deceased companion only to find I had been hallucinating. My companion was a rock. It never had any water to give, and I had carried it all this way for naught. With renewed determination, I stood up and began to walk.

While I eventually reached civilization, I never went into the desert again.

[Prism]

This is E-1. Scum should instantly blitz, town should post to say they are not doing so.

It means nothing if those same qualities make you an excellent vote candidate.

I spent much of the morning waiting to see if there would be a point where many of the current voters were offline. This did not happen, and the timezones are now out of sync and make it very unlikely to happen.

I intended to vote and allow scum to either blitz or for non-voting town players to acknowledge the hammer opportunity. I considered this a win-win.

The gap did not happen. This makes the utility of this vote very unlikely. Someone will likely save you, but I will gladly take the chance to simply kill you or have players publicly pass on the hammer while I can.

VOTE: Dragons

[Prism]

I will be in meetings for a few hours. I'll deal with flak or the flip later.

[Prism]

I figured that would happen but it is still unfortunate that no one got to check in between the vote/unvote.

I wondered why Prism hadn't considered you actually scum-reading them as a likely possibility. Added with your history of apparently misreading them, if we assume Prism is town, it felt a bit puzzling that they thought you had to be doing it for a purpose other than suspecting them.

You are making the opposite mistake of Firebringer as described in 140.

I did not assume a scumread as suggested by Firebringer, but did think it likely. This is most obvious in my post 118: "There are two

good

reasons for him specifically to vote me that way

with zero substance

".

First, voting to annoy me and see what happens can help pursue a scumread, and I explicitly thought this was a good idea. Annoying me to see what happens really could be a good play, and he wouldn't be the first to sort me that way. It sucks for me when that's the tactic, but if it works it works.

Second, if there is a scumread but not an intent to annoy me, voting me

without explanation

is a

bad

idea. It is denying other players the chance to agree with his reasoning and any degree of insight into his sincerity.

Thus, if one of his goals was to see me voted out or to pursue the scumread,

consider changing tactics.

My motivation in expressing annoyance was not to vent, but on the off-chance that clear knowledge and feedback

somehow

improve his reads and indirectly help me as a result. My feedback on changing tactics was sincere, I wanted him to take it, I believed it to be useful, and it was very short and direct because I know his time is more valuable and scarce than my own.

---

If StD voted Prism because he was suspicious, why didn't he say so when Prism was talking about him "only doing it to annoy him or for reactions" for example?

It's a minor thing but it kinda bugs me that it took me asking him to confirm whether Prism said was right or not. Wouldn't the normal behavior be to explain shortly "I'm voting you because I think you're scum" rather than "uh okay" and dip out?

The lack of explanation is not indicative. He never plays that way. There are four answers to this working together harmoniously. The first is that I'm a jerk and don't deserve it. Other players are irrelevant to this reason. The second is that sometimes he does not have time to play that way. The third is that he rarely wants to play that way regardless. The fourth is that it makes it significantly easier to play scum if he does not play that way.

---

I don't think I see the utility here that you do

Dragons is a player that often skirts the nullish line, as he will readily admit. I don't view voting him out on the basis that he has a lower chance of being resolved through dayplay as negative EV. This is a policy judgment, but one that is comparative to other players and not in isolation. I wouldn't care if Dragons AFK voted me, refused to speak with me all game, and spammed up the game with 20 pages of nonsense so long as I think he can be accurately read, and if he can be accurately read without doing any of those things then that is all the better.

If I have an active scumread, I will always prioritize that vote. But until Dragons towntells or I am convinced another player will be harder to resolve by future dayplay, I will always be happy to vote the slot.

---

Scum don't have an obligation to instantly hammer if STD is town, but anyone theoretically could. If your instinct on a townflip would be to beat the hammerer with a stick then I think we could find ourselves going downhill very quickly.

I actually forgot that Day 1 does not have an escape mechanic available Night 1; I joined last time on Day 2.

My mindset was that a scum that blitzes instantly escapes. If the hammering player doesn't escape, we qualitatively evaluate on Day 2. I definitely did not mind a town hammer, but I would have preferred explicit passovers. This would have made the probability of Dragons being scum go up with every passover.

[Prism]

I am known to utilize some extremely cheesy spitball gambits in the same vein, but I think forgetting the lack of a Day 1 escape mechanic and thinking there were 4 scum is likely to wind up the strongest set of town-indicative set posts I will make all game. The very methodical timing and context behind it would be extremely bizarre.

[Prism]

I remember my first time reading "The Very Hungry Caterpillar". You'll get there.

[Prism]

my brain is mushed right now from work. and i don't have the capacity to do reading comprehension on what prism is putting down.

Part of playing mafia is playing as a team, and that means accommodating to each other's strengths and weaknesses. It means working together and being there for one another.

I hear you, Firebringer. I will pick you up when you are down. I am willing to go the distance.

[Prism]

Wait you're policying me

Just another day of not reading or caring about your #1 scumread's reason for putting you at E-1. Nothing to see here, just a normal mafia-playing Thursday.

[Prism]

If only there were a way to convince the people, to get their attention to your claims. If only they would listen. Why don't any of them ask you about it? This is so unfair.

[Prism]

It came through loud and clear. I won't always respond to posts for brevity, but know that I am listening. I just don't mind the point of disagreement. My vote isn't born out of animosity. He's a fine person, and I wouldn't be voting him if I actively thought he was town. While I was ready for a flip, I again knew that the chance a wagon-voter was online to save him was quite high. It would also make my point quite effectively if they did so without even needing the flip.

In 2022 I might have considered it my personal responsibility to get him to do so and wring the stone for weeks on end, but in 2023 I am lazier and I will let the vote do the work for me. The immediate guillotine he faces will probably come and go, but it has provided strong incentive for him to post well above his average rate, and I hope that healthy incentive produces results. It is certainly much more effective than the other methods I have tried.

If he towntells I will happily take on the mantle of his biggest champion, even as he wishes a plague upon my person, my house, and my eternal lineage. Until then I am happy giving him incentive to post and give himself the chance at towntelling, and we both get to skip that whole unpleasant intermediary process that he hates so much and that I consider a hassle.

[Prism]

I haven't forgotten about the non-posters, either, for the record, but while the iron is hot...

[Prism]

I am sad only Firebringer enjoyed my recorded reading of The Very Hungry Caterpillar. Since he was the most important person in the audience, though, perhaps that makes it all the more special.

---

I was skeptical of patchwork's posts last night. The read on me was not impressive, and I considered voting them. I skimmed a small sample of their games. I decided to hold off because I think their alignment is very distinguishable. One of the games I opened it thinking it to be a scum one, and was surprised because they were reading like the town meta. It was in fact another town game. This made me feel better. I will revisit this later when I have a better test set.

---

T3's posting has gotten better, and wasn't awful to start. Most of his posts are above average. I really liked 354 because I felt the same way on first pass.

I didn't dislike it after thought. I just haven't felt moved by Shirou at any point, even when he preempted my question to T3. I really didn't find imaginality's lack of commentary surprising. This is my first time commenting on how I feel about Shirou, despite spending a lot of time answering his questions.

---

For Ydrasse, this post struck me as curious at the time. You say that you don't agree with Shirou's read on Dragons and can easily put yourself into his shoes emotionally, but vote him anyway. I know these are not exclusive, it just surprised me to see you vote him despite the empathy. However, it looks like you actively had a townread on Dragons earlier, presumably off of vibes.

Did you vote Dragons while townreading him and feeling empathetic to him?

[Prism]

Why did you dislike it at first and then stopped disliking it?

I am also often self-absorbed and think that other players should have more interest in and reaction to the things that I say.

We’re 100% never fading STD today.

camelCasedSnivy, Shirou, Ydrasse, Alisae, Prism

this probably has scum on back end (alisae, prism)

What a horrible entry post. I don't think me at the bottom is a big deal. Whiteknighting Dragons [for what I assume] because his posting is very town is absolutely wild and an impossible conclusion to reach. Alisae at the bottom is also interesting and probably begs elaboration.

VOTE: gob

[Prism]

Prism [is a good vote for] for their grand opening play.

Let's review the play together. I am VERY interested.

I expected the reaction to my post to be overwhelmingly negative, because I knew that the entire wagon would vehemently disagree with my perspective and be horrified if scum blitzed a town Dragons. It was definitely not what any of the wagon voters wanted, and I was trying to strongarm a result. It was not surprising when jjh disagreed and unvoted. Had things worked out the way I intended, I expected a high chance I would have hell to pay on Day 2. I expected some hell to pay even if it didn't.

All of this was predicated on a wrong mechanical understanding: There was a Night 1 escape mechanic and scum could safely blitz. How silly of me, everyone get a load of this idiot. Do I make the erroneous assumption as scum? Am I not just a town bonehead, but scum playing the part?

Most players have abstained on this question, presumably for WIFOM reasons. I understand them.

Now to you. You are different. What made that specific play scummy to you? Please walk me through it so I can understand your perspective.

Spoiler: Optional concrete questions to assist your evaluation

Do you think that I faked forgetting there were only 3 scum, and that scum did not have a Night 1 escape mechanic? Was that in fact the entire point of the play, not my claims that I wanted to have him either blitzed or confirmed? Do you believe something much more roundabout and anomalous, like "Prism legitimately forgot the setup as scum and wanted a partner to blitz", or "Prism expected to get townread for the actual post content"?

---

I am also often self-absorbed and think that other players should have more interest in and reaction to the things that I say.

What do you mean?

I am referring to why I didn't dislike Shirou's question of imaginality on second thought. Comparing my 364 to 336 should more squarely put the posts in dialogue and show why I moved the interaction back to null.

[Prism]

gob: Thank you for answering. That reasoning seems still bad but at least plausible. Waiting on the answer to my second question.

Spoiler: The following is not a commentary on the read quality or your alignment.

While your explanation is clarifying and the thoughts fit the post in retrospect, you claim to have said the reasoning in your original post. I don't think anyone would agree. Taking the full trip through your head is difficult in the absence of explanation.

5 of the 6 voters and a mention of "back end" make the scumread source (late wagoners) difficult to reliably infer but at least possible. In contrast, it is impossible to infer why you thought Dragons was town, and my assumption was noted in brackets because that is the most natural reading/explanation.

[Prism]

You will continue to struggle to achieve that goal without explaining why you feel that way.

Personally, I'm confused as to why you personally would think point 2, because the only time you watched me play scum I strongarmed all 4 eliminations in the game, but I will leave it to others.

[Prism]

I am satisfied voting you without doing more work on your behalf. If you convince me you are town another way, I will gladly move.

[Prism]

how are people getting anything from this prism v gob shit

We all expressed the same skeptical reaction to gob's entry. I was just the first. There's nothing else to it.

[Prism]

In 2010, when I was still a very hungry caterpillar at the ripe age of 13, I experimented with the "third on the wagon" rule to great success in 9p games. I do think that heuristic was a touch more reliable, but we all start somewhere.

[Prism]

This 10 post cap is amazing. Not giving into my instinct to go above and beyond is amazing. I'm a changed person. I like this.

Even Firebringer is doing my work for me now. I feel brand new. I'm going to go listen to Garth Brooks and come back to some sweet, delicious content.

The dawn has come and the sun is shining on Prism's mafia playing world.

[Prism]

[T3] has a lot of posts for not trying to scumhunt at all

I don't think that is true at all. T3's alignment commentary is plentiful and, more specifically, more frequent than yours.

Spoiler:

The implication was the important thing

So going back to this, I suppose what I'm trying to say is that I think town would be more likely to openly say that they townread someone without just implying it. Although when I think about it more it's still probably NAI.
UNVOTE:

scum usually only tries as hard or only a bit harder than most players are "trying" from my experience. There are a few that try to "solve" super hard but you don't look LAMIST enough to fit the archetype in my opinion, it's not a "in-your-face-I'm-solving" posting style, it feels more subtle especially from your (T3) side.

Okay, that's fair. I think Shirou is towny for this but I've also never played with him before.

uh okay

It reads to me as a complete lack of interest in engaging with the game yeah.

Nah, this seems like typical STD. I almost never get the vibe that STD is engaged when he’s playing as town. I think I had meta on him related to this a while ago which ended up being right like slightly >rand+margin error.

But no, I think that post by STD is entirely NAI and I think jjh is better than this

I'm not convinced that StD is scum at all

i barely bother reading to begin with.
i think im going to be tuning out prism posts soon.

brain not big enough for all the words prism puts in posts.

out of all the users i've seen thus far while checking thread i think i've seen prism the most and i think they're the one who i have the most distinct town vibe on

I would be very very wary of townreading Prism for vibes.

camel’s response to patchwork’s early posts is bad VOTE: camel

i barely bother reading to begin with.
i think im going to be tuning out prism posts soon.

brain not big enough for all the words prism puts in posts.

out of all the users i've seen thus far while checking thread i think i've seen prism the most and i think they're the one who i have the most distinct town vibe on

I would be very very wary of townreading Prism for vibes.

camel’s response to patchwork’s early posts is bad VOTE: camel

is it cuz I'm opportunistic or something lol

A little. The tone just seems bad though

I don’t like Shirou’s interactions with imaginality

To me it seemed like pointless questioning that was not actually intended to gauge a read on imaginality

Why did you dislike it at first and then stopped disliking it?

I am also often self-absorbed and think that other players should have more interest in and reaction to the things that I say.

We’re 100% never fading STD today.

camelCasedSnivy, Shirou, Ydrasse, Alisae, Prism

this probably has scum on back end (alisae, prism)

What a horrible entry post. I don't think me at the bottom is a big deal. Whiteknighting Dragons [for what I assume] because his posting is very town is absolutely wild and an impossible conclusion to reach. Alisae at the bottom is also interesting and probably begs elaboration.

VOTE: gob

That is not my reasoning though? I never said their posting was towny lol.

I said because they got voted so quickly with no resistance theyre almost certainly not scum.

This explanation isn't that bad but I still think gob is scum on balance.

I don't think ratio v. raw number or quality of analysis arguments are good either. T3 still winds up above well above the field on both fronts.

[Prism]

...And the fact it was mechanically impossible to accomplish the actual scum motivation behind it-setting up a blitz and escape-is irrelevant to you?

[Prism]

...And the fact it was mechanically impossible to accomplish the actual scum motivation behind it-setting up a blitz and escape-is irrelevant to you?

I can think of at least 3 different reasons why Scum would do what you did there. And you can hide behind sophisticated reasons, but (i) limiting the amount of information Town get, (ii) ensuring Scum don’t lose outright after two days, and (iii) voting a slot with sufficient cover seem like pretty strong ones. I don’t think the motivation you mention (which is impossible) is the only motivation that makes any sense there.

Can you describe to me in what worlds those first two things happen as a result of my vote? What has to happen, exactly?

Dragons has to actually get voted out shortly after I vote. This is

very unlikely to happen

without the escape-blitz mechanic. The way to actually get that result is scum to hope for E-1, then post basically the same thing with a real hammer. [Note that as town, I didn't think anyone else is likely to put him at E-1 and give me the chance to do so because I believed there to be the escape mechanic. E-2 is effectively E-1 for town players.]

The stronger argument is that I

would not believe

in policying Dragons as town because of 1 and 2. jjh is arguing the irrationality, even though he thinks it's plausible for me. I'm unwilling to delve into arguing the sincerity of my belief. Dig up my last two games with Dragons if you want: They're Divide & Conquer and Moderators of the Discord Server.

[Prism]

It dawned on me that 445 was really not interesting and not worth the words. Sorry about everyone.

I'm still mostly fine staying put and waiting for more from Andres, patchwork, and gob.

Camel's latest string of posts have been null-scum. The T3 counterwagon idea was the first time camel expressed any conviction and persistence, but it was very half-baked and weirdly timed to defend gob. Camel even recognized he felt a weird obligation to defend gob (because he once previously used the same awful assumption?) which made me forgive it but then...doesn't stop and still just randomly votes around?

[Prism]

I realized after I typed 445 that don't really have any interest in pursuing the dialogue further, and that I was sorry for even posting it.

I think the argument I was hoping for a town lolhammer is very bad. I think the argument that I would not believe the angle as town is very fine. The mechanical arguments are not lost on me but as with jjh, we will not agree. I do not want to argue sincerity.

Thank you for answering anyway and I want to acknowledge that I read the response.

[Prism]

Don't worry, I hate that you're having to deal with trashcans like Shirou, jjh, and myself. I feel really bad about it. I assure you we are trying to get you out of here so that you can play with better players ASAP.

[Prism]

jjh actually isn't voting gob so he got unnecessarily lumped in. I deeply regret this error.

[Prism]

You really don't have to, again I feel really bad about this. Some of your comments are really intellectually piercing and well-over my head, and I know you should be playing with a better table than this one. The sooner you move onto greener pastures and more skilled players, the better haha.

[Prism]

Well, right now I'm doing fine, but it really all started to go downhill for me after I started a job at my town's local cafe when I was 17. I was struggling in school, but there was an older writer there who was trying to start a literary newspaper. He came by every day, and quickly became a bit of a father figure to me. I'd never had one growing up, you see. Anyway, he was a very committed writer, and it was hard for him living in a town that was humble and lacking in real artistic ambition. He felt very alone. When he died, he left it to me to conduct a review of his works.

The visible works left by this novelist are easily and briefly enumerated. It is therefore impossible to forgive the omissions and additions perpetrated by Madame Henri Bachelier in a fallacious catalogue that a certain newspaper, whose Protestant tendencies are no secret, was inconsiderate enough to inflict on its wretched readers - even though they are few and Calvinist, if not Masonic and circumcised. Menard's true friends regarded this catalogue with alarm, and even with a certain sadness. It is as if yesterday we were gathered together before the final marble and the fateful cypresses, and already Error is trying to tarnish his Memory . . . Decidedly, a brief rectification is inevitable.

I am certain that it would be very easy to challenge my meager authority. I hope, nevertheless, that I will not be prevented from mentioning two important testimonials. The Baroness de Bacourt (at whose unforgettable vendredis I had the honor of becoming acquainted with the late lamented poet) has seen fit to approve these lines. The Countess de Bagnoregio, one of the most refined minds in the Principality of Monaco (and now of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, since her recent marriage to the international philanthropist Simon Kautsch who, alas, has been so slandered by the victims of his disinterested handiwork) has sacrificed to "truth and death" (those are her words) that majestic reserve which distinguishes her, and in an open letter published in the magazine Luxe also grants me her consent. These authorizations, I believe, are not insufficient.

I have said that Menard's visible lifework is easy enumerated. Having carefully examined his private archives, I have been able to verify that it consists of the following:

a) A symbolist sonnet which appeared twice (with variations) in the magazine La Conque (the March and October issues of 1899).

b) A monograph on the possibility of constructing a poetic vocabulary of concepts that would not be synonyms or periphrases of those which make up ordinary language, "but ideal objects created by means of common agreement and destined essentially to fill poetic needs" (Nimes, 1901).

c) A monograph on "certain connections or affinities" among the ideas of Descartes, Leibnitz and John Wilkins (Nimes, 1903).

d) A monograph on the Characteristica Universalis of Leibnitz (Nimes, 1904).

e) A technical article on the possibility of enriching the game of chess by means of eliminating one of the rooks' pawns. Menard proposes, recommends, disputes, and ends by rejecting this innovation.

f) A monograph on the Ars Magna Generalis of Ramon Lull (Nimes, 1906).

g) A translation with prologue and notes of the Libro de la invencion y ante del juego del axedrez by Ruy Lopez de Segura (Paris, 1907).

h) The rough draft of a monograph on the symbolic logic of George Boole.

i) An examination of the metric laws essential to French prose, illustrated with examples from Saint-Simon (Revue des langues romanes, Montpellier, October, 1909).

j) An answer to Luc Durtain (who had denied the existence of such laws) illustrated with examples from Luc Durtain (Revue des langues romanes, Montpellier, December, 1909).

k) A manuscript translation of the Aguja de navegar cultos of Quevedo, entitled La boussole des precieux.

1) A preface to the catalogue of the exposition of lithographs by Carolus Hourcade (Nimes, 1914).

m) His work, Les problemes d'un probleme (Paris, 1917), which takes up in chronological order the various solutions of the famous problem of Achilles and the tortoise. Two editions of this book have appeared so far; the second has as an epigraph Leibnitz' advice "Ne craignez point, monsieur, la tortue," and contains revisions of the chapters dedicated to Russell and Descartes.

n) An obstinate analysis of the "syntactic habits" of Toulet (N.R.F., March, 1921). I remember that Menard used to declare that censuring and praising were sentimental operations which had nothing to do with criticism.

o) A transposition into Alexandrines of Le Cimetiere marin of Paul Valery (N.R.F., January, 1928).

p) An invective against Paul Valery in the Journal for the Suppression of Reality of Jacques Reboul. (This invective, it should be stated parenthetically, is the exact reverse of his true opinion of Valery. The latter understood it as such, and the old friendship between the two was never endangered.)

q) A "definition" of the Countess of Bagnoregio in the "victorious volume"- the phrase is that of another collaborator, Gabriele d'Annunzio - which this lady publishes yearly to rectify the inevitable falsifications of journalism and to present "to the world and to Italy" an authentic effigy of her person, which is so exposed (by reason of her beauty and her activities) to erroneous or hasty interpretations.

r) A cycle of admirable sonnets for the Baroness de Bacourt (1934).

s) A manuscript list of verses which owe their effectiveness to punctuation.<1>

Up to this point (with no other omission than that of some vague, circumstantial sonnets for the hospitable, or greedy, album of Madame Henri Bachelier) we have the visible part of Menard's works in chronological order. Now I will pass over to that other part, which is subterranean, interminably heroic, and unequalled, and which is also - oh, the possibilities inherent in the man! - inconclusive. This work, possibly the most significant of our time, consists of the ninth and thirty-eighth chapters of Part One of Don Quixote and a fragment of the twenty-second chapter. I realize that such an affirmation seems absurd; but the justification of this "absurdity" is the primary object of this note.<2>

Two texts of unequal value inspired the undertaking. One was that philological fragment of Novalis - No. 2005 of the Dresden edition - which outlines the theme of total identification with a specific author. The other was one of those parasitic books which places Christ on a boulevard, Hamlet on the Cannebiere and Don Quixote on Wall Street. Like any man of good taste, Menard detested these useless carnivals, only suitable - he used to say - for evoking plebeian delight in anachronism, or (what is worse) charming us with the primary idea that all epochs are the same, or that they are different. He considered more interesting, even though it had been carried out in a contradictory and superficial way, Daudet's famous plan: to unite in one figure, Tartarin, the Ingenious Gentleman and his squire . . . Any insinuation that Menard dedicated his life to the writing of a contemporary Don Quixote is a calumny of his illustrious memory.

He did not want to compose another Don Quixote - which would be easy - but the Don Quixote. It is unnecessary to add that his aim was never to produce a mechanical transcription of the original; he did not propose to copy it. His admirable ambition was to produce pages which would coincide - word for word and line for line - with those of Miguel de Cervantes.

"My intent is merely astonishing," he wrote me from Bayonne on December 30th, 1934. "The ultimate goal of a theological or metaphysical demonstration - the external world, God, chance, universal forms - are no less anterior or common than this novel which I am now developing. The only difference is that philosophers publish in pleasant volumes the intermediary stages of their work and that I have decided to lose them." And, in fact, not one page of a rough draft remain to bear witness to this work of years.

The initial method he conceived was relatively simple: to know Spanish well, to re-embrace the Catholic faith, to fight against Moors and Turks, to forget European history between 1602 and 1918, and to be Miguel de Cervantes. Pierre Menard studied this procedure (I know that he arrived at a rather faithful handling of seventeenth-century Spanish) but rejected it as too easy. Rather because it was impossible, the reader will say! I agree, but the undertaking was impossible from the start, and of all the possible means of carrying it out, this one was the least interesting. To be, in the twentieth century, a popular novelist of the seventeenth seemed to him a diminution. To be, in some way, Cervantes and to arrive at Don Quixote seemed to him less arduous - and consequently less interesting - than to continue being Pierre Menard and to arrive at Don Quixote through the experiences of Pierre Menard. (This conviction, let it be said in passing, forced him to exclude the autobiographical prologue of the second part of Don Quixote. To include this prologue would have meant creating another personage - Cervantes - but it would also have meant presenting Don Quixote as the work of this personage and not of Menard. He naturally denied himself such an easy solution.) "My undertaking is not essentially difficult," I read in another part of the same letter. "I would only have to be immortal in order to carry it out." Shall I confess that I often imagine that he finished it and that I am reading Don Quixote - the entire work. - as if Menard had conceived it? Several nights ago, while leafing through Chapter XXVI - which he had never attempted - I recognized our friend's style and, as it were, his voice in this exceptional phrase: the nymphs of the rivers, mournful and humid Echo. This effective combination of two adjectives, one moral and the other physical, reminded me of a line from Shakespeare which we discussed one afternoon:

Where a malignant and turbaned Turk . . .

Why precisely Don Quixote, our reader will ask. Such a preference would not have been inexplicable in a Spaniard; but it undoubtedly was in a symbolist from Nimes, essentially devoted to Poe, who engendered Baudelaire, who engendered Mallarme, who engendered Valery, who engendered Edmond Teste. The letter quoted above clarifies this point. "Don Quixote," Menard explains, "interests me profoundly, but it does not seem to me to have been - how shall I say it - inevitable. I cannot imagine the universe without the interjection of Edgar Allan Poe

Ah, bear in mind this garden was enchanted!

or without the Bateau ivre or the Ancient Mariner, but I know that I am capable of imagining it without Don Quixote. (I speak, naturally, of my personal capacity, not of the historical repercussions of these works.) Don Quixote is an accidental book, Don Quixote is unnecessary. I can premeditate writing, I can write it, without incurring a tautology. When I was twelve or thirteen years old I read it, perhaps in its entirety. Since then I have reread several chapters attentively, but not the ones I am going to undertake. I have likewise studied the entremeses, the comedies, the Galatea, the exemplary novels, and the undoubtedly laborious efforts of Persiles y Sigismunda and the Viaje at Parnaso . . . My general memory of Don Quixote, simplified by forgetfulness and indifference, is much the same as the imprecise, anterior image of a book not yet written. Once this image (which no one can deny me in good faith) has been postulated, my problems are undeniably considerably more difficult than those which Cervantes faced. My affable precursor did not refuse the collaboration of fate; he went along composing his immortal work a little a la diable, swept along by inertias of language and invention. I have contracted the mysterious duty of reconstructing literally his spontaneous work. My solitary game is governed by two polar laws. The first permits me to attempt variants of a formal and psychological nature; the second obliges me to sacrifice them to the 'original' text and irrefutably to rationalize this annihilation . . . To these artificial obstacles one must add another congenital one. To compose Don Quixote at the beginning of the seventeenth century was a reasonable, necessary and perhaps inevitable undertaking; at the beginning of the twentieth century it is almost impossible. It is not in vain that three hundred years have passed, charged with the most complex happenings - among them, to mention only one, that same Don Quixote."

In spite of these three obstacles, the fragmentary Don Quixote of Menard is more subtle than that of Cervantes. The latter indulges in a rather coarse opposition between tales of knighthood and the meager, provincial reality of his country; Menard chooses as "reality" the land of Carmen during the century of Lepanto and Lope. What Hispanophile would not have advised Maurice Barres or Dr. Rodriguez Larreta to make such a choicel Menard, as if it were the most natural thing in the world, eludes them. In his work there are neither bands of gypsies, conquistadors, mystics, Philip the Seconds, nor autos-da-fe. He disregards or proscribes local color. This disdain indicates a new approach to the historical novel. This disdain condemns Salammbo without appeal.

It is no less astonishing to consider isolated chapters. Let us examine, for instance, Chapter XXXVIII of Part One "which treats of the curious discourse that Don Quixote delivered on the subject of arms and letters." As is known, Don Quixote (like Quevedo in a later, analogous passage of La hora de todos) passes judgment against letters and in favor of arms. Cervantes was an old soldier, which explains such a judgment. But that the Don Quixote of Pierre Menard - a contemporary of La trahison des clercs and Bertrand Russell - should relapse into these nebulous sophistries! Madame Bachelier has seen in them an admirable and typical subordination of the author to the psychology of the hero; others (by no means perspicaciously) a transcription of Don Quixote; the Baroness de Bacourt, the influence of Nietzsche. To this third interpretation (which seems to me irrefutable) I do not know if I would dare to add a fourth, which coincides very well with the divine modesty of Pierre Menard: his resigned or ironic habit of propounding ideas which were the strict reverse of those he preferred. (One will remember his diatribe against Paul Valery in the ephemeral journal of the superrealist Jacques Reboul.) The text of Cervantes and that of Menard are verbally identical, but the second is almost infinitely richer. (More ambiguous, his detractors will say; but ambiguity is a richness.) It is a revelation to compare the Don Quixote of Menard with that of Cervantes. The latter, for instance, wrote (Don Quixote, Part One, Chapter Nine)

. . . la verdad, cuya madre es la historia, emula del tiempo, deposito de las acciones, testigo de lo pasado, ejemplo y aviso de lo presente, advertencia de lo por venir.

[. . . truth, whose mother is history, who is the rival of time, depository of deeds, witness of the past, example and lesson to the present, and warning to the future.]

Written in the seventeenth century, written by the "ingenious layman" Cervantes, this enumeration is a mere rhetorical eulogy of history. Menard, on the other hand, writes:

. . . la verdad, cuya madre es la historia, emula del tiempo, deposito de las acciones, testigo de lo pasado, ejemplo y aviso de lo presente, advertencia de lo por venir.

[. . . truth, whose mother is history, who is the rival of time, depository of deeds, witness of the past, example and lesson to the present, and warning to the future.]

History, mother of truth; the idea is astounding. Menard, a contemporary of William James, does not define history as an investigation of reality, but as its origin. Historical truth, for him, is not what took place; it is what we think took place. The final clauses - example and lesson to the present, and warning to the future - are shamelessly pragmatic.

Equally vivid is the contrast in styles. The archaic style of Menard - in the last analysis, a foreigner - suffers from a certain affectation. Not so that of his precursor, who handles easily the ordinary Spanish of his time.

There is no intellectual exercise which is not ultimately useless. A philosophical doctrine is in the beginning a seemingly true description of the universe; as the years pass it becomes a mere chapter - if not a paragraph or a noun - in the history of philosophy. In literature, this ultimate decay is even more notorious. "Don Quixote," Menard once told me, "was above all an agreeable book; now it is an occasion for patriotic toasts, grammatical arrogance and obscene deluxe editions. Glory is an incomprehension, and perhaps the worst."

These nihilist arguments contain nothing new; what is unusual is the decision Pierre Menard derived from them. He resolved to outstrip that vanity which awaits all the woes of mankind; he undertook a task that was complex in the extreme and futile from the outset. He dedicated his conscience and nightly studies to the repetition of a pre-existing book in a foreign tongue. The number of rough drafts kept on increasing; he tenaciously made corrections and tore up thousands of manuscript pages.<3> He did not permit them to be examined, and he took great care that they would not survive him. It is in vain that I have tried to reconstruct them.

I have thought that it is legitimate to consider the "final" Don Quixote as a kind of palimpsest, in which should appear traces - tenuous but not undecipherable - of the "previous" handwriting of our friend. Unfortunately, only a second Pierre Menard, inverting the work of the former, could exhume and rescuscitate these Troys . . .

"To think, analyze and invent," he also wrote me, "are not anomalous acts, but the normal respiration of the intelligence. To glorify the occasional fulfillment of this function, to treasure ancient thoughts of others, to remember with incredulous amazement that the doctor universalis thought, is to confess our languor or barbarism. Every man should be capable of all ideas, and I believe that in the future he will be."

Menard (perhaps without wishing to) has enriched, by means of a new technique, the hesitant and rudimentary art of reading: the technique is one of deliberate anachronism and erroneous attributions. This technique, with its infinite applications, urges us to run through the Odyssey as if it were written after the Aeneid, and to read Le jardin du Centaure by Madame Henri Bachelier as if it were by Madame Henri Bachelier. This technique would fill the dullest books with adventure. Would not the attributing of The Imitation of Christ to Louis Ferdinand Celine or James Joyce be a sufficient renovation of its tenuous spiritual counsels?

<1> Madame Henri Bachelier also lists a literal translation of a literal translation done by Quevedo of the Introduction a la vie devote of Saint Francis of Sales. In Pierre Menard's library there are no traces of such a work. She must have misunderstood a remark of his which he had intended as a joke.

<2> I also had another, secondary intent-that of sketching a portrait of Pierre Menard. But how would I dare to compete with the golden pages the Baroness de Bacourt tells me she is preparing, or with the delicate and precise pencil of Carolus Hourcade?

<3> I remember his square-ruled notebooks, the black streaks where he had crossed out words, his peculiar typographical symbols and his insect-like handwriting. In the late afternoon he liked to go for walks on the outskirts of Nimes; he would take a notebook with him and make a gay bonfire.

[Prism]

I'm mostly where I was at earlier in the day. The initial explanation from gob's second-to-last visit moved the needle to scumlean. I haven't really been moved by any of the more recent posts.

My reads look something like:

Town lean
=====
T3
Firebringer
jjh
patchwork (Really want more here)
Shirou

Nullzone
=====
Andres
Ydrasse
imaginality
Dragons

Scumlean
=====
gob/Camel tie

[Prism]

I forgot Alisae, they should go between Ydrasse and imaginality. That post is ordered T->S straight down, and Shirou honestly should have gone in the nullzone.

I might burn one of my spare posts since I'm below 10/day, but I'm going to try to stay put unless I see a very good reason to post more tonight.

[Prism]

I'm not going to defend the slot until I see more reason to. Have at it.

[Prism]

I'm probably fine with a vote on Alisae. Lackluster responses and still litigating the gob's StD wagon read way past the expiration date.

[Prism]

VOTE: Alisae

Alisae's recent posting, to me, feels like someone frustrated that a town player's reasoning is bad but they're right anyway. Even the questions of gob that are neutral to good are getting shot down.

I think T3 stocks continue to skyrocket. I pondered the same question he considered about gob, but am holding a higher expectation of him and keeping him as a scumlean.

For Firebringer, you're doing my work for me (asking questions that I find useful/also want to pose) with great frequency. I don't think it is out of your range. Nothing negative has come up so far.

For camel, I didn't like your start and again the defense of gob was timed weirdly and is null-scum. gob's explanation brought him slightly up to make you roughly tied all things considered.

I don't think most of the combinations here in my pool make a lot of sense, but I try to avoid pre-flipping and go one at a time. With that I've burned through my extra post buffer. Goodnight everyone.

[Prism]

I don't have much to add since my last post. My reads are messy and I'm fine with voting many slots.

Patchwork just looks like disengaged scum to me

Patchwork definitely doesn't have as much but that's kinda the point- they literally popped into thread, couldn't decide whether to read the game or interact with people, did neither in any practical capacity and then, recognising that they weren't doing enough to get townread, promised more that they haven't delivered on

I think this has a good chance of being right, probably better than my weak guesses at Alisae, gob, and Camel. My earlier meta makes me think patchwork is very sortable, but in the absence of content that won't happen, so I'm eager to see the results of votes on them.

Well lets not bury Alisae here.

[unv]Alisae[/unv]

You were voting patchwork, not Alisae. No one was rushing to get Alisae flipped.

The correct way to get an unvote tag is this:

Code: Select all

[unvote]PLAYERNAME[/unvote]

[Prism]

I also have a very busy week ahead of me, and you should expect very little from Wednesday-Sunday. Thing should calm down afterwards, but I have an all-day professional conference on Wednesday and a reunion festivities and travel the entire weekend. gob and Fire can rejoice at shortened posts.

On a more general note, it would be nice if all of the active players who regularly post things I find reasonable and agree with are town.

It rarely happens, but it would be nice. Until there is stronger reason to suspect one I'm not going to worry too much about them in aggregate. The nice part about the setup is that the scumteam is only as strong as the weakest link.

[Prism]

I reiterate that you weren't voting Alisae. You were voting patchwork. You might even consider putting the vote back on.

[Prism]

[Prism]

I can't say I'm even remotely interested in the current discussion but at least sometimes I feel an Alisae-town world in a post.

VOTE: Snivy

I haven't townread a single post this slot has made all game. They're all null to scum. I still think the obligation to defend gob line was weird as hell regardless of what gob is.

P-Edit: No, but now there might be. Not that my vote is that big of a surprise.

[Prism]

I'm not really sold on gob-town still but at some point he's just been shutting down several votes preemptively. At some point you have to stop whiteknighting random slots as scum (Dragons -> Opposing the Alisae wagon he started -> Saying to give imaginality benefit of doubt if meta favors).

Maybe he hasn't realized that yet but shrug. If I lower expectations on scum cognizance, the rest of his play becomes more town as a result anyway.

For Alisae I can't tell if you're saying I haven't done anything alignment indicative this game, or if you just don't even try more broadly. I can't even remember us actually playing together.

[Prism]

I'm asking if I haven't done anything AI

this game

or if you just generally assume I'm impossible to read. Your comment seems to say the latter.

[Prism]

what inspired this vote

1. Didn't enjoy the Alisae/Shirou discussion, thought Alisae was fine and thought slightly worse of Shirou.
2. No longer really felt the Alisae vote because all I have is the frustrated angle, considered voting patchwork to replace gob's vote. Realize it's not likely to make a difference in activity.
3. Still thinking where I should put my vote. Considered leaving vote on Alisae, felt aimless and my heart isn't really in it. Considered revoting gob, seems dumb because his recent content is fine and no one is there. Consider voting you, seems dumb because no one else is there.
4. Thought more about it. I had things I liked about both gob and Alisae. I realized that even though it's a mixed bag of posts all over the spectrum for Shirou, Alisae, gob, etc, your posting has exclusively been somewhere between "null" to "scum" and not once fell on the "nulltown" side. Pulled up ISO to confirm that is correct. It is correct.

I actually want you flipped.

[Prism]

Feel free to explain the Snivy townread. Pull up their ISO if you think it'll help. It's empty and he takes almost exclusively the easiest paths to engage. The T3 push was incredibly half-assed and the defense of gob was bizarre, and it is probably a very bad framejob if anything.

[Prism]

Suddenly Snivy has the cutting-edge analysis, and it's the easiest and least challenging to fake. Shocking.

[Prism]

honestly snivy you kinda come across as OMGUS town here

He was "hoping it was a pressure vote", then when it is revealed to be substantive, and the read is consistent with what I've given all game.

Suddenly his conviction is ramped up greatly, and all of the points he liked previously and posts that seemed +town gone by the wayside because -maybe- I'm deflecting off Alisae. He isn't confident in your flip to begin with, but he's preflipping and not analyzing my reason for the vote nor shift away.

He saw "I want you flipped" and really did not like the sound of that. My confidence rises.

I'm 1 over my cap, so I'm done for the night.

[Prism]

I think 730 is probably the most town post Shirou has made all game, and I don't even really agree with it. I don't see why that is the kicker for you when Shirou has every reason to just let me/camel play out as mafia.

I'm not going to litigate why Camel saying "oh it's alisae+prism then" in response to me turning sharply aggressive on him is probably the most basic scum reaction in existence. His read is entirely built on the preflip because that was the only thing he could immediately think of.

I don't like going over the cap but I feel some conviction and do not want this to turn into a clownshow.

[Prism]

shirou u listed like 2 things that are just not alignment indicative at all

I agree with you that the entire post is wrong. Alisae's last concern as scum was figuring out a way to vote Shirou.

The post is still town: look at the timing.

[Prism]

Shirou has no reason to feel threatened on this page. They are not that myopic as scum. You are the one being voted, not him, and the other vote is on camel. He is under zero threat.

This looks like a townie who thinks they're the center of the universe and that someone's energy should be more on them. I have seen it a million times and I have personally done it a million times. He is obsessed with you because he wants to solve your slot. He is obsessed with you not spending more time solving his slot.

I'm not arguing with you about camel. We will not agree. "It's not impossible for a town to also react that way" is the lowest bar I've heard in awhile for a towntell. I am willing to vote you as my backup if I cannot get camel.

[Prism]

And with that I will sleep, well over my posting cap. Goodnight all.

[Prism]

My stance is unchanged from last night. I don't think camel has made a single post I've townread all game. I think the OMGUS spitball was a scum reaction because he is experienced enough to know better and to look at the reason. Instead of attacking my reason for the push he is preflipping me with Alisae, a scumread he is not confident in standing alone. Why bet a second read on it?

I still townread Shirou and am unimpressed by Alisae.

[Prism]

I think scum directly defending each other is less common than you posit, especially in this setup where at least one scumflip is guaranteed.

I can confirm imaginality basically plays like this either way.

If I don't get any other commentary on camel, I will move. The fact that only Dragons/Alisae have done so, lol.

[Prism]

can we kill prism now

So far the extent of your reasoning is that I am trying to save my scum partner Alisae. It is unclear why I should go first in your view. In contrast, my view is that you are scum regardless of what Alisae is.

Perhaps you should expound on why I am scum even in a town Alisae world and use the preflip argument only as a strengthener.

[Prism]

Didn't like the response. It was factually accurate but pinged me.

This is far from your first time seeing me play. Posts like 813 are run-of-the-mill and the tone is intentionally neutral and standardized across many years of play. I suspect you know better than to treat the factual description and the implicit accusation inscribed as secondary, but perhaps I am wrong.

[Prism]

Strictly ordered T->S

Town read
=====
Shirou

Townlean
=====
T3
Firebringer

Nullzone
=====
jjh
Dragons
Andres
gob
Ydrasse
imaginality

Scumlean
=====
Titus
Alisae

Scumread
=====
Camel

Shirou moves way up after the last spree of posts. jjh moves down because he didn't address the Shirou/Alisae or Prism/Camel disputes at all. I think at least the first was worth commenting on. gob goes up a bit even though I still feel meh about the slot, defending too many slots. Alisae keeps sliding down for various reasons, one of which is the (imo bad) read on Shirou and continued weird posts around me.

Dragons putting in some effort and actually bothering to think about his vote and move it off of me instead of just going "oh wagon derailed i'm v/la back to AFK" is slightly town.

Titus is clearly just trying to get her bearings with an instant read. I'm not a fan of the patch flake and think jjh's explanation was very plausible, even though I thought the first few posts were in-line with town meta. Titus would be lower but I've seen much, much more questionable choices and reads out of her.

VOTE: Alisae

[Prism]

scum mad they're found for a reason that doesn't make sense

I'm scum with Alisae. You are correct: my vote timing was poorly decided and gave up our shared alignment.

What do you mean when you say your reason doesn't make sense? Did you forget what your argument is?

As a secondary matter, you missed a citation.

---

@Prism, StD isn't listed on your wall but by your text is it fair to say townlean?

Which posts of Alisae's are weird? Please do not say why. I want to form my own opinion.

@Prism, StD isn't listed on your wall but by your text is it fair to say townlean?

Which posts of Alisae's are weird? Please do not say why. I want to form my own opinion.

Save the Dragons, or Dragons, is listed in the nullzone.

The specific posts I am calling "weird" of Alisae's are the ones with my name in them. These can be found here.

[Prism]

I tried to limit it by time, but that function failed. Conveniently, the turning point is perfect: All relevant posts end with the first link to Prism v. 1L.

[Prism]

I don't think this is the most useful rabbit hole or forming an independent read on them that valuable. I gave it but it's really not a good use of time IMO.

Feeling weird about Alisae's posts about me was a sidenote that I hadn't mentioned. Your time is probably better spent either reading from scratch or zeroing in on the Shirou/Alisae argument if you have a particular interest in Alisae.

[Prism]

It was a suggestion for other avenues, not a command. The important point is that you're unlikely to get what you'd like out of "Prism can teach you how to read" and "why prism" in isolation.

It's out of respect for your time. If you don't want to take my word for it, be my guest. I went through the trouble of curating your request and trying to set you up to read something useful and now I certainly regret doing so. Waste your time if you want.

[Prism]

It's fine. I have a vested interest in you getting up to speed and inserted into the game, it's not entirely selfless. You asked for the posts I had made a small note of and I felt an obligation to flag that I didn't believe it was a good entry point. I get that you took them as "you're bad do this" instead of "Hey, if that's what you want, I don't think this is it, but maybe here's these..." and I'm sorry that I didn't communicate it well.

[Prism]

scum mad they're found for a reason that doesn't make sense

I'm scum with Alisae. You are correct: my vote timing was poorly decided and gave up our shared alignment.

What do you mean when you say your reason doesn't make sense? Did you forget what your argument is?

As a secondary matter, you missed a citation.

I am still very curious as to why you personally think your read on me is bad.

[Prism]

I moved off of you because no one else has expressed that you are a first choice.

The citation is this. You took my reason for scumreading Alisae-Alisae being frustrated that Shirou's read is correct but poorly argued, then took it as your own against me.

Alisae's recent posting, to me, feels like someone frustrated that a town player's reasoning is bad but they're right anyway.

scum mad they're found for a reason that doesn't make sense

The difference is that I was commenting on Shirou's read. You are commenting on your own.

It doesn't make sense for you to think your own reason-the only one you've presented and are presenting-is bad. Plagiarism tends to create results like that, unfortunately.

[Prism]

I love that the bar is so low that camel can borderline scumslip in the thread and people expect so little that he's town anyway, mostly for posting aimlessly a few times a day.

[Prism]

It seems you are more interested in voting in ways that don't upset people.

Memory of a goldfish.

[Prism]

Sit down because this next one might come as a shock: Town-aligned players do not have a reason to randomly cabin-off players that are on the scummier end of the spectrum, and might in fact have no preference for voting among them if they are roughly equal.

You might even speculate they do not share a scum alignment with any of the players with that bucket.

[Prism]

Sit down because this next one might come as a shock: Town-aligned players do not have a reason to randomly cabin-off players that are on the scummier end of the spectrum, and might in fact have no preference for voting among them if they are roughly equal.

You might even speculate they do not share a scum alignment with any of the players with that bucket.

Example?

I have switched from Dragons (null-scum policy vote and EXTREMELY upsetting to most of the town) to gob to Alisae to camel to Alisae, and expressed a willingness to vote patchwork.

gob is my willingness to swap between members on the null-scum to scumlean ends of my buckets without doggedly sticking to any single one. The only scumread I have had all game is camel, and I made clear that if there was zero interest I would move.

[Prism]

gob is citing my willingness to swap between members on the null-scum to scumlean ends of my buckets without doggedly sticking to any single one as a scumtell.*

[Prism]

It seems you are more interested in voting in ways that don't upset people.

Memory of a goldfish.

Two of the most content driving votes of the entire game have been from me.

The first was extremely controversial and upsetting to all of the town. It was very obvious it was always going to be so. The idea I have been trying to dodge flak with my vote choices is hilarious.

The second is your wagon. Perhaps you forgot I was the first to react and vote to you and others just followed my lead.

[Prism]

What are you saying here? I think you have just been casting a wide range of who you could vote for today, but now you are saying you are not moving off snivy. Right? It seemed like before you were keeping Alisae in the pool as well.

I am currently voting Alisae. This is my response to your point about me "casting a wide" net.

Sit down because this next one might come as a shock: Town-aligned players do not have a reason to randomly cabin-off players that are on the scummier end of the spectrum, and might in fact have no preference for voting among them if they are roughly equal.

You might even speculate they do not share a scum alignment with any of the players with that bucket.

[Prism]

I can't help you if you can't help yourself.

1. gob: "[Prism has been] "more interested in voting in ways that don't upset people." (Read that sentence carefully: it is what you put on the paper and actually communicated to other human beings)
2. Prism: "I voted in a way that is extremely controversial and upsetting"
3. gob: "I don't understand how [that vote] being controversial and upsetting is relevant."

It is not that the vote has to be town. It is that your (1) is wrong.

Spoiler: Most immediately relevant borderline scumslip commentary

can we kill prism now

So far the extent of your reasoning is that I am trying to save my scum partner Alisae. It is unclear why I should go first in your view. In contrast, my view is that you are scum regardless of what Alisae is.

Perhaps you should expound on why I am scum even in a town Alisae world and use the preflip argument only as a strengthener.

scum mad they're found for a reason that doesn't make sense

I'm scum with Alisae. You are correct: my vote timing was poorly decided and gave up our shared alignment.

What do you mean when you say your reason doesn't make sense? Did you forget what your argument is?

As a secondary matter, you missed a citation.

---

@Prism, StD isn't listed on your wall but by your text is it fair to say townlean?

Which posts of Alisae's are weird? Please do not say why. I want to form my own opinion.

@Prism, StD isn't listed on your wall but by your text is it fair to say townlean?

Which posts of Alisae's are weird? Please do not say why. I want to form my own opinion.

Save the Dragons, or Dragons, is listed in the nullzone.

The specific posts I am calling "weird" of Alisae's are the ones with my name in them. These can be found here.

I moved off of you because no one else has expressed that you are a first choice.

The citation is this. You took my reason for scumreading Alisae-Alisae being frustrated that Shirou's read is correct but poorly argued, then took it as your own against me.

Alisae's recent posting, to me, feels like someone frustrated that a town player's reasoning is bad but they're right anyway.

scum mad they're found for a reason that doesn't make sense

The difference is that I was commenting on Shirou's read. You are commenting on your own.

It doesn't make sense for you to think your own reason-the only one you've presented and are presenting-is bad. Plagiarism tends to create results like that, unfortunately.

Spoiler: Collected Prism posts about Snivy dating back to yesterday

I can't say I'm even remotely interested in the current discussion but at least sometimes I feel an Alisae-town world in a post.

VOTE: Snivy

I haven't townread a single post this slot has made all game. They're all null to scum. I still think the obligation to defend gob line was weird as hell regardless of what gob is.

P-Edit: No, but now there might be. Not that my vote is that big of a surprise.

Feel free to explain the Snivy townread. Pull up their ISO if you think it'll help. It's empty and he takes almost exclusively the easiest paths to engage. The T3 push was incredibly half-assed and the defense of gob was bizarre, and it is probably a very bad framejob if anything.

honestly snivy you kinda come across as OMGUS town here

He was "hoping it was a pressure vote", then when it is revealed to be substantive, and the read is consistent with what I've given all game.

Suddenly his conviction is ramped up greatly, and all of the points he liked previously and posts that seemed +town gone by the wayside because -maybe- I'm deflecting off Alisae. He isn't confident in your flip to begin with, but he's preflipping and not analyzing my reason for the vote nor shift away.

He saw "I want you flipped" and really did not like the sound of that. My confidence rises.

I'm 1 over my cap, so I'm done for the night.

My stance is unchanged from last night. I don't think camel has made a single post I've townread all game. I think the OMGUS spitball was a scum reaction because he is experienced enough to know better and to look at the reason. Instead of attacking my reason for the push he is preflipping me with Alisae, a scumread he is not confident in standing alone. Why bet a second read on it?

I still townread Shirou and am unimpressed by Alisae.

Spoiler: Previously mentioned half-assed Snivy read on T3 where he didn't actually read T3 and just made shit up

actually im stiil interested in T3 wagon

if I'm not mistaken T3 had a wagon and it just kinda disappeared? like why cant we bring it back to life

i feel like a flip switched inside of me

What do you think is scummy about T3

he has a lot of posts for not trying to scumhunt at all

[T3] has a lot of posts for not trying to scumhunt at all

I don't think that is true at all. T3's alignment commentary is plentiful and, more specifically, more frequent than yours.

Spoiler:

The implication was the important thing

So going back to this, I suppose what I'm trying to say is that I think town would be more likely to openly say that they townread someone without just implying it. Although when I think about it more it's still probably NAI.
UNVOTE:

scum usually only tries as hard or only a bit harder than most players are "trying" from my experience. There are a few that try to "solve" super hard but you don't look LAMIST enough to fit the archetype in my opinion, it's not a "in-your-face-I'm-solving" posting style, it feels more subtle especially from your (T3) side.

Okay, that's fair. I think Shirou is towny for this but I've also never played with him before.

uh okay

It reads to me as a complete lack of interest in engaging with the game yeah.

Nah, this seems like typical STD. I almost never get the vibe that STD is engaged when he’s playing as town. I think I had meta on him related to this a while ago which ended up being right like slightly >rand+margin error.

But no, I think that post by STD is entirely NAI and I think jjh is better than this

I'm not convinced that StD is scum at all

i barely bother reading to begin with.
i think im going to be tuning out prism posts soon.

brain not big enough for all the words prism puts in posts.

out of all the users i've seen thus far while checking thread i think i've seen prism the most and i think they're the one who i have the most distinct town vibe on

I would be very very wary of townreading Prism for vibes.

camel’s response to patchwork’s early posts is bad VOTE: camel

i barely bother reading to begin with.
i think im going to be tuning out prism posts soon.

brain not big enough for all the words prism puts in posts.

out of all the users i've seen thus far while checking thread i think i've seen prism the most and i think they're the one who i have the most distinct town vibe on

I would be very very wary of townreading Prism for vibes.

camel’s response to patchwork’s early posts is bad VOTE: camel

is it cuz I'm opportunistic or something lol

A little. The tone just seems bad though

I don’t like Shirou’s interactions with imaginality

To me it seemed like pointless questioning that was not actually intended to gauge a read on imaginality

Why did you dislike it at first and then stopped disliking it?

I am also often self-absorbed and think that other players should have more interest in and reaction to the things that I say.

We’re 100% never fading STD today.

camelCasedSnivy, Shirou, Ydrasse, Alisae, Prism

this probably has scum on back end (alisae, prism)

What a horrible entry post. I don't think me at the bottom is a big deal. Whiteknighting Dragons [for what I assume] because his posting is very town is absolutely wild and an impossible conclusion to reach. Alisae at the bottom is also interesting and probably begs elaboration.

VOTE: gob

That is not my reasoning though? I never said their posting was towny lol.

I said because they got voted so quickly with no resistance theyre almost certainly not scum.

This explanation isn't that bad but I still think gob is scum on balance.

I don't think ratio v. raw number or quality of analysis arguments are good either. T3 still winds up above well above the field on both fronts.

Please stop asking me questions if you will not read the post or reflect on them.

I don't care if you don't read my posts. I do care if you're going to promise some sort of dialogue and then forget what you said 5 seconds before.

[Prism]

I am the only player that actively scumreads Snivy. It is unclear how that is going out of my way to make a vote that is not "widely upsetting".

Your real criticism seems to be the fact that I am voting Alisae, and that I've gone in flux from gob-Alisae-snivy-Alisae. My read has shifted on you from scumlean to nulltown. I voted Alisae because I had no strong scumread and was fine with several null-scum votes.

I switched to Snivy because it was, and is, my first real scumread. I gave it time and asked others to comment. I explicitly said earlier that I would move if there's no traction. Not a single person has expressed a first-order willingness to vote Snivy.

If I don't get any other commentary on camel, I will move. The fact that only Dragons/Alisae have done so, lol.

I didn't like Alisae's read on Shirou and think some of the latest posting is bad as a bonus. Widespread disinterest continues in Snivy, to my dismay. The vote goes back on Alisae.

[Prism]

Firebringer I don't think the vote on Titus is terrible, that's my third preference, but I do want to express my disappointment in you for not joining me earlier.

Don't get excited, it's not frustration, just disappointment.

[Prism]

I thought the vocaroo would be enough to tip you off, but I guess not. You should call us more.

[Prism]

Ydrasse is, still, a she.

For Shirou the sequence didn't make me feel better about my vote or my townread at a minimum.

[Prism]

Bedtime for me too. RIP my posting cap idea, killed by me wanting to defenestrate gob out the Empire State Building.

[Prism]

Actually, Ydrasse, is there anything you would like me to look at tomorrow morning?

[Prism]

I wasn't impressed by the jjh post. Alisae wagon commentary is underwhelming, and the Dragons reasoning as a comparison makes it doubly so.

Titus's shift was already explained in her most substantive post.

Originally I described the jjh post as "abjectly horrible". This strong description got downgraded because not only did I find the Dragons posts plausible, I believed Dragons had a strong presumption that scum would defend partners that would be evident across many years of games. Quickly searching "defending", "defense", and "defend" across every game he has ever played, it is not clear this belief is true. That absence may be significant.

Back to sleep.

[Prism]

It's all Titus spitballing based off of Ydrasse voting "patchwork" and not "Titus". The reasoning is that scum would have posted in the PT that "patchwork is now Titus and not easy to vote". Ydrasse voting "patchwork" means they did not post that, so scum must therefore be in the inactives.

It is wildly speculative, extremely implausible, and absolutely unsound from premise 1, but that is the explanation.

[Prism]

I think the missing piece is trivial but I will leave it to her.

[Prism]

Trivial to see, not that it wouldn't matter if it were missing.

[Prism]

I spent some time thinking in the late hours. At first, I thought Alisae's Shirou, Dragons, and Prism spitball was a random and significant shift, and definitely wondered if e was "phoning it in". I realized that it wasn't much of a shift at all: e scumread the first two, and I was the only addition.

This makes some sense. I am the type of scum player to shut you down completely by force as I did when Alisae was 1v1ing Shirou earlier, only to have me suddenly townread him. The Dragons connection is more nebulous, but it would explain how the gambit worked, and why my reasoning was uncharacteristic.

I'm not really sure how to feel. I might make a single lodestar post on Camel, sit on that vote through my conference/travel, and see what happens. My level of confidence in that read is high.

P-Edit: lol

[Prism]

Originally I described the jjh post as "abjectly horrible". This strong description got downgraded because not only did I find the Dragons posts [about no one defending Alisae] plausible, I believed Dragons had a strong presumption that scum would defend partners that would be evident across many years of games. Quickly searching "defending", "defense", and "defend" across every game he has ever played, it is not clear this belief is true. That absence may be significant.

Back to sleep.

I also find it hilarious that camel gets townread for saying "person who votes me MUST be mafia deflecting off my weak scumread" meanwhile me opposing jjh's thesis, formulating a meta hypothesis on Dragons of my own to counter, testing it against every game he has ever played, and adjusting my read as dictated by the results is considered null activity.

When it was 5a and I woke up to get water.

[Prism]

I don't have a wagon theory. I don't do preflips at all.

[Prism]

Idea: Voting the player who has not towntold or given a nuanced take across the entire game, made up a bullshit push on T3 that was debunked by in 30 seconds by hitting "ISO", and who slipped and admitted that his only reason for pushing me made zero sense because he was obsessed with trying to give a witty one-liner and totally forgot the context he was stealing it from.

[Prism]

i think that town rn is maybe you, fb probably, gob, maybe jj, maybe alisae, std
what do u think abt this

I'm going to respond to your later readslist instead because it's easier to identify points of agreement.

gob firebringer jjh927
save the dragons andresvmb
prism shirou t3
alisae snivy
titus imaginality

if this is wrong it's probably like dragons or alisae somewhere in the middle tiers?

Our bottom 4 is the same but differently ordered. Right now mine probably looks like Snivy->Titus->Alisae->imaginality. Our town/nullreads are more scattered: I think jjh is well within range, while Fire and T3 are a bit above. I would be mildly surprised if Shirou were scum after the initial self-absorbed ranting, but the more recent posts seem to be intentionally leaning into it.

I don't like imaginality's reads but they're not obviously scummy. I do think his read on gob is a bad interpretation of gob on two fronts. First, the "slip" catch of gob is not very sound, as I see flipped alignment description errors like that often. Second, gob has not been trying to find viable wagons very much. gob has instead been very lukewarm about wagoning and is quick to shut down anything that might go through.

I am curious as to why imaginality switched from scumreading camel to townleaning camel.

I don't scumread jjh but I'm not impressed by the reasoning and sudden emphasis on Dragons, which is very thin and brittle, and jjh's disinterest in camel. It seems atypical not to correct me if I am going astray. I think Dragons is an immensely difficult read because his towngame is willfully, if not purposely, underdeveloped and weak, which in turn props up his scumgame when the time comes. This is why I was eager to policy Dragons when the chance presented itself, and why I am skeptical that the posts jjh emphasizes are very indicative.

jjh also claimed to not know how Titus's reasoning that "scum were inactive" pointed away from Alisae. This was bizarre and did not suggest a real attempt to step into Titus's shoes. Alisae was an active, specifically at the time Titus expected the scumteam to be posting in the PT about the replacement.

[Prism]

Prism why do you scumread me aside from you be wrong on reads? You seem to follow my thoughts.

I think your initial entries into the game, commenting on a few things immediately in front of you, were very standard and easy to fake.

Your motive seemed to be making an immediate impact to salvage a slot criticized for inactivity. You do not seem particularly motivated to gather accurate reads: you have never seemed particularly concerned about the immense lack of context you possess, its implications for accurately assessing motivations, and a desire to get it right.

Your focus seems to be to post fast and plausibly, not to post accurately.

[Prism]

For probably the fourth or fifth time jjh, can you more explicitly weigh in on camel? These two posts, please.

[Prism]

For probably the fourth or fifth time jjh, can you more explicitly weigh in on camel? These two posts, please.

I don't think camel looks substantially different from what I observed from the dead thread of pokemon battles 2 and I have put essentially very little thought whatsoever into the slot beyond that

Did he play on an alt in that game?

[Prism]

Prism, this is straight bitching about my style and being correct. I have entertained the possibility I am wrong and am working with others. You can't make a scumread on my posting that's not a reverse fos or disagreement.

I think my post directly stated why this is not simply stylistic but in fact scum-motivated to counter a specific criticism of the slot in the easiest way possible.

[Prism]

oops, meant datisi uni

I think there was a clear step up in frequency of commentary and stance taking hat game. Perhaps I will dive more in depth at a later date, but I don't view them as very similar beyond tone.

[Prism]

jjh has entered the desert. I am sending my best thoughts and prayers in this turbulent time.

[Prism]

My faith in any other vote has severely waned so I'm going back here for now.

VOTE: camelcasedSnivy

[Prism]

I'm really hopeful that STD has responded positively to my prompts and is putting in some effort right now to come up with some thought provoking responses

jjh, whipped about by strings of sand with the dry heat of the sun baring down, begins to more urgently ask his companion for some water...

[Prism]

I am enjoying watching jjh relive the Parable of the Desert Wanderer so much more than I should.

Spoiler: GIF

[Prism]

For what it's worth while Dragons is pretty null to me and my preference readwise is Snivy->Titus->Alisae->imaginality, I have substantial more confidence I can get a reasonable read on all 4 by endgame. In contrast I can't I look forward to wringing water from stone and think the chance of Dragons becoming more readable with time is near-zero.

I am very happy to vote out Dragons by default if the current state of affairs continues and he fails to cooperate with jjh to advance content that is actually readable.

[Prism]

I am null to null-town on jjh and do not care in the slightest about his side of things in this exchange. I have not put Dragons through the wringer or asked him a single question all game because I consider it a waste of time-the effort ratio would be 10:1 and almost certainly inconclusive, as it has been every time to date-and he would rather pull out his own toenails with a set of pliers than deal with it even if I wanted to.

If he can't work with

anyone

to give readable content, then off the plank he goes.

[Prism]

@Prism, Just because you're claiming not to be able to read something doesn't make it unreadable. StD plays in short sentences/paragraphs, usually. Occasionally, he goes deeper but that's not really him. He's efficient with words.

I spent a lot of time thinking about this question over lunch.

It's a real dilemma: How does one read players that are sparse with words and very rarely, if ever, venture into making more effort? The playstyle seems more concerned with remaining opaque for the purpose of preserving the same expectations for the player's scumgame than with winning the game in front of them. The black box process becomes not only a means to an end but the goal in and of itself. I pondered ways of navigating around this question, settling on accommodating for those preferences and trying to needle where most effective, and to strike a balance between drawing more out of them and subtly leaving opportunities I think they would seize as town.

The lunch bell rang, and my time was up. I crumpled up my bag of Hot Cheetos, threw it away along with my empty bottle of chocolate milk, and I made my way back to the classroom. I tried to shift my thoughts away from mafia and back to conic sections and Geometry. I was 14 years old. The year was 2010. Barack Obama was the President.

[Prism]

ok

Prism

who do you townread? i only remember your thoughts on wagons if im being fr

Strictly ordered T->S

Town read
=====
Shirou

Townlean
=====
T3
Firebringer

Nullzone
=====
jjh
Dragons
Andres
gob
Ydrasse
imaginality

Scumlean
=====
Titus
Alisae

Scumread
=====
Camel

Shirou moves way up after the last spree of posts. jjh moves down because he didn't address the Shirou/Alisae or Prism/Camel disputes at all. I think at least the first was worth commenting on. gob goes up a bit even though I still feel meh about the slot, defending too many slots. Alisae keeps sliding down for various reasons, one of which is the (imo bad) read on Shirou and continued weird posts around me.

Dragons putting in some effort and actually bothering to think about his vote and move it off of me instead of just going "oh wagon derailed i'm v/la back to AFK" is slightly town.

Titus is clearly just trying to get her bearings with an instant read. I'm not a fan of the patch flake and think jjh's explanation was very plausible, even though I thought the first few posts were in-line with town meta. Titus would be lower but I've seen much, much more questionable choices and reads out of her.

VOTE: Alisae

[Prism]

thats quite a few nullslots

other than T3 town i suppose it makes sense

From what I remember, you don't have many strong stances yourself.

[Prism]

Not really. I struggle to read Titus since her play style is extremely different from mine. In Warehouse 13 I approached reading her half by extensively tracking her read progressions and half off of flips to some success, and I imagine I will do the same here if she lives.

[Prism]

Any other game commentary of note?

[Prism]

There are few things in life I hate more than preflippers. Maybe cellular phones and YA fiction.

[Prism]

People who use phrases like "based on the gamestate" and "Looking at the gamestate, scum has to be..." are also up there.

[Prism]

[Redacted imaginality quotes]
this feels slimy like a made up reason

[...]

seems like an excuse to not give more reads

[...]

no

just no

you know better. this looks fake as fuck

VOTE: Camel

i think i want this tbh after thinking about it

i dunno man

this is me trying

Mood

[Prism]

That is a comparison I have never heard before and am unlikely ever to hear again. That one definitely isn't plagiarized.

[Prism]

Your definition of "nothing else" includes a lot of things. This is why we can't trust language nowadays.

[Prism]

Maybe my gif of an orangutan driving a golf cart was a bit more formal than I thought...

[Prism]

These are jokes and not an alignment commentary. I, too, am having fun in the mafia game and not treating it like my job.

[Prism]

I don't think being overly defensive in response to obvious light hearted ribbing is a towntell, but the bar is again 6 ft under. Camel knowing English, knowing how to work a computer, even reading a post-the towntell just keep adding up, they're overwhelming me.

[Prism]

That is a comparison I have never heard before and am unlikely ever to hear again. That one definitely isn't plagiarized.

Very combative Prism post, Exhibit 3A

[Prism]

I still love that everyone thinks it is plausible that I woke up for water at 5am as scum, decided to make up a bullshit reason to defend Dragons from jjh, came up with a way to test that bullshit reason against every post he's ever made, searched through the results of that test, then actually adjusted my made-up hypothesis to accommodate and NOT defend Dragons at all.

Absolutely run of the mill 5a scum behavior.

[Prism]

I literally got 800 on my reading SAT but I can't fucking read a mafiascum game lmao

We are all very proud of you. This is an accomplishment that will set you up to procure even more educational resources, social investment, and economic mobility and flexibility in life. I hope you make the most of it.

In the context of the mafia game, no one cares.

[Prism]

Lol

[Prism]

Sweet summer children.

[Prism]

The familiarity with my own meta does put me in a position of superior knowledge and motivation in my stylistic choices, actually.

[Prism]

Perhaps you can disprove me and shut my laughter up. Go grab a towngame and showcase the difference.

[Prism]

I literally got 800 on my reading SAT but I can't fucking read a mafiascum game lmao

We are all very proud of you. This is an accomplishment that will set you up to procure even more educational resources, social investment, and economic mobility and flexibility in life. I hope you make the most of it.

In the context of the mafia game, no one cares.

yeah no i was just frustrated at myself

The first half was very sincere. I am happy for you and sometimes jealous: I've seen you grow since you joined. It is a joy to watch, and I wonder if my mafia mentors felt the same sense of awe and envy when I was 14-17. On top of being very gifted, you also have more educational resources that I did at your age. I am very envious!

And I'm glad you recognize that this isn't the place to pull that out. I am sorry for being harsh in it.

[Prism]

I'm very willing to cede that you are a better and more knowledgeable mafia player across the board, gob. You're also significantly smarter than I am: You don't make stupid plays like me, you're not a stupid player like me.

You are, unfortunately, also wildly wrong in my meta. I do have special knowledge on this front that makes it easier to overcome those many disadvantages.

[Prism]

Seems like they are being abrasive so they can have an excuse why people Scumread them

I'm really not interested in fighting like that [about my own lack of knowledge and superiority]

I thought not, which is why I ceded your second post's commentary and challenged you on the substantive front in the first: your assertion that my abrasion is scum-motivated.

I urge you to pursue the initial point if you think it has promise. I laughed because I am very confident it does not and that I will survive any level of scrutiny on this point. There is value to both of us if you go prove yourself wrong, and needless to say immense payout if you prove yourself right.

[Prism]

Maybe you don't find your own points worth pursuing. That would be very disappointing if you just wanted to aimlessly speculate and retreat from them on challenge, but that is your prerogative.

[Prism]

Back to business as usual and setting aside my tormenting of gob, I still have not moved in my reads.

T3 continues to stay high, but I am bothered by his townread on Titus. Titus has been around the block many times and can take the basic tonal behaviors you learn in year 1. She is well past that point. I tried to track through the patchwork progression, because originally I thought T3 was a patchwork voter (which would have made the Titus flip very +town), but it looks like he's had the slot as nulltown all game.

I am very likely to vote Titus. I have been at a conference all day so have been less inclined to reread, and am flying out for weekend reunion festivities tomorrow. I will fit a more substantive review of the game if I can, but I picture my role will more be "Help any wagon go through that isn't on my townreads"

[Prism]

imaginality's post also didn't really do him any favors. The ISO is still too thin and I prefer reading him over the long run instead of through tone.

[Prism]

Prism, stop dancing around the issue and vote me already. You want to fight. Fine. I'll get scum out of the game despite you. I find it interesting you've had imaginality as neutral or scum all game but now that people are wanting a wagon here your tone changes. When Alisae was the wagon choice, you were fine diddling around on camel. Now that imaginality is a wagon, you change your vote rather than defend imaginality.

No. As a bonus, I have and will probably continue to have zero interest in fighting you.

I also telegraphed my unavailability many days in advance.

[Prism]

These two posts, from a game where a town-imaginality got outposted and eliminated Day 1, are very insightful into how he thinks about the game and gamepaces like this one IMO.

you're not going to be limmed because?

Because you're going to unvote me because I'm not the droid you're looking for.

Because I've seen this happen multiple other times D1 where people go after me early and then it dies down and the game itself starts happening and I get more townread. (As whatever alignment.)

I think it's maybe something to do with how I get out of rvs earlier than most but at the same time people read those early posts as more weighty than they usually are? Plus playstyle and timezone differences usually mean I post slightly longer more thought out posts compared to quickfire back and forth so my posts can get seen as 'artificial'.

Anyway whatever the reason, I'm confident you'll all see me as glowing with towniness before too long.

Village should want to high post as well and generally people who are excited to be villagers and want to play and solve will post a lot

I kinda disagree with this, or at least, "post a lot" is relative. I was excited to be in this game, posted more frequently than I usually do, and still felt buried. Especially the time when I got like 6 or so "more posts have been made" messages in a row when I was trying to post was rather frustrating.

This game definitely showed how powerful the scum flooding the thread can be but as someone who can't keep up that pace of posting even when motivated and enthusiastic (due to a mix of reasons) this game is making me wonder how to handle similar games in future.

I would prefer not to end up adopting a Not_Mafia-esque "maybe I should just zero-effort the first few days and only start playing if I'm still alive then" playstyle but I do see the appeal of that approach a little more right now lol.

I guess my main positive takeaway idea from this game to apply in future games is to try to prioritise getting good reads on the most active posters earlier, so I can try to call out their spamming harder if I scumread them.

Oh and try to look less scummy D1, that'd help too :p

[Prism]

Actually, let's run up Titus after all!

VOTE: Titus

This is a post from scum Titus in 2019:

Cara, how can you not see how obviously scum Garmr is?

This is another post from scum Titus in 2015:

Dwelee how can you not see this is just blatantly saving AJ who can't make a protown post.

This is a post from Titus this game:

Prism, how can you not see Ydrasse's vote on patchwork as the scumclaim it is?

So far as I can town, she has never used this turn of phrase as town. This is the closest town post I can find, and it comes in specific response to "I don't see it?" on a mechanical question.

@Gamma, Why is obviously dodging a lie detector check protown?

Who did it?

Did it?

CommKnight is refusing to let himself be checked by the lie detector or answer what he is getting from that? I see zero useful to town about that.

I don't see it?

How can you not see his blatant refusal to type I am town in a post by itself.

[Prism]

Aw, scratch that, I mixed up a towngame and a scumgame. The second quote is town while the fourth quote is scum.

VOTE: Camel

[Prism]

My presence is why activity exploded...

Can we please not divert from scum?

Stronger statements than your last two passes. Did his posting worsen things in your eyes, or is this a situation where I'm scum because imaginality is scum because Prism is scum?

I'm tempted to vote imaginality since no vocal players are voting for Ydrasse and I won't have the thread presence to drive it through.

VOTE: imaginality

I don't think anyone townreads imaginality. Perfect place for scum to put a partner.

[Prism]

if u wanna force something to happen ur probably just mafia

Citation requested.

[Prism]

Hi depressed, I'm Prism. Nice to meet you!

[Prism]

Honestly it's late and for some reason I kind of like Titus's last two posts. YOLO voting Alisae it is.

VOTE: Alisae

[Prism]

I don't even slightly agree with them but they stir the soul

[Prism]

Yeah I actually think Alisae would have me as town here. Forget it, Shirou, let's ride.

[Prism]

(I know 1493 is to Titus, unrelated train of thought)

[Prism]

Why aren't people voting imaginality?

His reads are nothing to write home about but the posting style and frequency is very typical of his towngame, which I believe you expressed concern about.

[Prism]

gob, you also aren't currently voting imaginality. If you're sympathetic to the cause, you should probably put it on the board.

[Prism]

Not 6 and gob doesn't believe it's 6.

[Prism]

I do not know the precise number on imaginality. I would be mildly surprised if it was 3, and shocked if it was 4, and question reality if it were higher.

[Prism]

Therefore do know that if I'm struggling to confidently move you past the null range Prism, it's a sign of respect?!

I have always been aware and amused. Mafia is a very inclusive game because of this self-correcting dynamic for imbalances in skill and experience.

My point earlier when contrasting the standards between myself and camel was to highlight that camel is a human being with roughly the same or greater levels of creativity, intelligence, and capacity for deception, not a literal camel. The bars can be different, but people's expectations of what is town indicative of camel are criminally low.

[Prism]

I don't know if I like the company I'm keeping here, but we're on the wagon and halfway to Oregon.

[Prism]

jjh has reached the "desperately wringing the companion for water" stage. Optimism has waned. It is only a matter of time now. The end for him is near.

[Prism]

We all know that mafia is about being right in your reads at the end of the day and shaming others for being wrong, not about building robust voting coalitions to further a shared win condition.

[Prism]

jjh, you don't understand me, that's the fundamental difference, and

you're not even trying to.

build a bridge and get over it

jjh, please lay down on the couch. Let's start from the beginning. How are you feeling at the moment? Where do you think those feelings come from?

[Prism]

I am still very skeptical of Titus and nervous about my wagon partners, but I don't think it is inconsistent with her previous statements or play. She has repeatedly expressed a willingness to test Shirou's theory throughout the course of the day.

[Prism]

YOLO

[Prism]

Ah yes, an info flip in a game where a scum flip gives us 5 confirmed townreads

You're advocating a complete coinflip on Dragons, lmao

[Prism]

I don't even think flipping Dragons would be bad. He's never getting more readable over time and even if he gets cleared, he's never driving content forward and is an ideal pick for scum.

The idea that we have sinned because the Alisae flip is so much worse is ???. Terrible that we could flip a consensus scum to nullscum read with plenty of commentary instead of a player whose alignment is best determined by consulting the daily horoscope.

[Prism]

Maybe you should have convinced the other town players on that front instead of going on a snipe hunt.

I warned you a week in advance you were snipehunting and you insisted on verifying it yourself. Enjoy the consequences.

[Prism]

Maybe you should have convinced the other town players on that front instead of going on a snipe hunt.

I warned you a week in advance you were snipehunting and you insisted on verifying it yourself. Enjoy the consequences.

Wtf is snipehunting and who are you talking to?

Fool's errand (wasting multiple days trying to wring content out of Dragons), jjh

[Prism]

I don't know why I am suddenly at the very top with minimal commentary, but sure, I'll take it.

[Prism]

If I were to seriously hail mary the team it'd be Alisae, Camel, Ydrasse but that is a real hail mary and Ydrasse is pretty null to me.

[Prism]

I struggle with you because I can't tell if you're arrogant or scum. You act like there's only one way to play.

I think I have embraced several different ways to play in this game alone. I think putting in a sincere attempt to cooperate and communicate with other players is the only prerequisite or foundation that I have.

I haven't critiqued your style much outside of some joking ribbing about preflippers. I have given you a large amount of leeway because of your style: I thought your chain of reasoning on Ydrasse was unsound from start to finish, but I never called you scum for it or hassled you over it.

[Prism]

You are very correct that if I don't believe someone sincerely tries to make themselves understood, but instead sandbags as town because it makes the scum alignment easier to play, then I will not respect their play style.

[Prism]

I don't agree. She is talking to you on your terms and trying to understand you, or at minimum running through the motions to project the appearance of it.

[Prism]

I think the answer is more complicated than that, and I think Dragons has many reasons for playing why he does, both consciously and unconsciously. Here is a fuller perspective.

If StD voted Prism because he was suspicious, why didn't he say so when Prism was talking about him "only doing it to annoy him or for reactions" for example?

It's a minor thing but it kinda bugs me that it took me asking him to confirm whether Prism said was right or not. Wouldn't the normal behavior be to explain shortly "I'm voting you because I think you're scum" rather than "uh okay" and dip out?

The lack of explanation is not indicative. He never plays that way. There are four answers to this working together harmoniously. The first is that I'm a jerk and don't deserve it. Other players are irrelevant to this reason. The second is that sometimes he does not have time to play that way. The third is that he rarely wants to play that way regardless. The fourth is that it makes it significantly easier to play scum if he does not play that way.

I don't really want to argue sincerity or litigate that you should adopt these beliefs as your own, but they are mine.

[Prism]

To use your reasonable person comparison Titus, this isn't any opinion of Palsgraf. This is Vaughan v. Menlove.

[Prism]

Well Southwest's system is down nationwide and I am stuck in a mile long line.

Anyone want to keep me company?

My current reads are

Townread
======
Shirou
T3

Townlean
======
gob
jjh
Firebringer

True Null
======
Andres
Save the Dragons
Ydrasse
imaginality

Scumlean
======
Titus
Alisae

Scum
======
Camel

[Prism]

I am annoyed because I wanted the 2 day break so I didn't have to think about this all weekend. No night phase.

[Prism]

I'll think about the implications for awhile. I don't have any immediate reaction to that flip.

[Prism]

The info thing is right.

VOTE: Alisae

If I am wrong, I will take a fresh look starting with a revamped VCA.

So is this the fresh look phase of the post-flip plan?

[Prism]

"If I am wrong"

Why I shouldn't try to read on my phone at the gate. My apologies, dumb last question.

[Prism]

Alisae and me were equally incorrect about each other apparently, but am I supposed to feel bad because I won the 1v1?

I think your idea of winning is a bit different than mine.

[Prism]

Camel, are you seriously implying that I was setting up for a DAY 2 lim on Titus or STD

I'm not saying you actually did that but it is extremely easy to do that and vaguely plausible.

[Prism]

After finally grabbing hold of the rampaging Shirou, Firebringer ropes him up and sits him in the chair. It is time. He takes the mask off of Shirou. It is Save the Dragons all along.

[Prism]

The duality of man

[Prism]

It wasn't an accusation, it was a shitpost commentary about how we got "it's just my playstyle" from two very different players

[Prism]

My read on Shirou has dropped like an absolute rock, or maybe shot downwards out of a cannon.

[Prism]

VOTE: Shirou

I cannot emphasize how much I disbelieve this entire train of posting past the first one or two posts.

[Prism]

I don't disbelieve that there is plausibly scum in that group. I disbelieve your sincerity of thought and attitude.

[Prism]

also where is andres

Out for some cigs and milk

[Prism]

The odds that a given group of 4 has exactly 0 scum is 17%.

I will be blown away at the predictive power of this tell if there is a scum in that pool.

[Prism]

There's the reason you voted Alisae and ignored the evidence. You wanted to test your pet fucking theory.

What? I didn't want to test my pet theory. I thought Ali was scum and in the worst scenario she was town I could also test my pet theory.

I firmly believed Ali was scum until she flipped town on me.

You ignored the evidence because you gained a personal benefit by ignoring it. That fucking pisses me off. If I didn't need every single fucking town vote, I'd vote with Prism just to make a damn point.

To be clear I might change my mind on review, right now I'm just on my layover, but my skepticism comes from the degree of self-absorption and reaction to Firebringer. He is shameless and over the top because he knows it is the opposite to what people expect.

[Prism]

I'm waiting for Andres and others. I don't really have the stomach for this, and I am not in a position to contribute constructively even if I did.

[Prism]

At literally no point in this game have I wanted to vote jjh, not even close.

UNVOTE:

To be candid I did not really scumread Shirou. I mostly wanted the spree of self-absorbed posts to stop, and I wanted to see if I could read into a reaction. I accomplished neither of those goals.

[Prism]

This game is a mess. I can't try and clean it up this weekend, not that I could if I tried.

[Prism]

I would gladly go to 3 way with imaginality and work with him from there. I can't say that about most of the table at this point.

[Prism]

Ydrasse I concur that you should stop posting and get a Subway sandwich, not because I dislike the posts but because anything salient will be lost in short time, like shell fragments in the great pacific garbage patch.

[Prism]

We the Crewmen of the Anuket Topaz, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish Firebringer as our benevolent Monarch and earthly Divine. Where he goes, the Crewmen shall follow.

[Prism]

Yeah I'm useless until Monday, festivities beckon.

[Prism]

I didn't like Fire's last set of posts and he's in the nullpool. I'm not really sure how to feel about Titus. My top two votes are probably Camel and Ydrasse but I have zero bases for the latter, just haven't been feeling anything town even from posts I know are factually true.

[Prism]

I need to just read and shut up frankly. I don’t like feeling like if I say something, people are just going to put me down bysaying well you haven’t read so whatever your opinion is useless.

The bigger issue is underexplanation. Your

conclusions

are second-order and not what people are actually looking forward to.

[Prism]

can I be your younger sibling then Fire?

Meh if Shirou is Scum Fire probably isn’t.

This one is just straight up bad. Both of these players have played a few games of mafia before.

[Prism]

I am terrified. The bar you set was insanely low and both of these players instantly clear it. I would love to know what gymnastics you use to justify setting the bar impossibly high for others.

[Prism]

Even more frightening is that you have me as third with Dragons and Shirou. I could infer rational reasons for Alisae's belief because e had a specifically biased worldview that colored certain interactions. Something tells me yours are significantly worse at best and nonexistent at least.

[Prism]

You think that Shirou's 989, coming off the heels of an interaction where Firebringer and I are exchanging jokes, is an attempt to insert himself and ingratiate himself with Firebringer in a way that would not occur if Firebringer was also scum.

This is drastically underestimating both players and I could easily find parallel scenarios to rule out every possible S/S pairing that doesn't involve imaginality. I am not calling you scum for it, but I do think it is a very bad read and hipfiring in a way that prioritizes giving content over actually solving and giving

good

content.

[Prism]

You are misinterpreting the entire post. First I will pretend you are not and answer the implicit questions behind it. I don't care about Alisae's reads because they were underexplained and I trust reasons, not people. I voted Alisae in large part because I frequently disagreed with their reasons. The fact that they were town does not salvage this.

Biased worldview that colored certain interactions? I need to go back and read some of Shirou and Alisae’s interactions again, but I don’t think Alisae was entirely OMGUS’ing Shirou, if I remember correctly. Shirou started doubling down in a way that I did think Scum would do in that situation, and you seem to be doing what? Dismissing them entirely? Does Alisae’s flip not do anything for you at all?

My statement is that not only am I not scum with Dragons and Shirou, I believe this is insanely hard to rationalize and justify.

I am contrasting this to Alisae's read that it was myself, Dragons, and Shirou. Alisae was concerned about the timing of certain reads and voteshifts of mine as they related to e's own wagon, Dragons, and Shirou. This was a unique situation that arose specifically out of when and how I reacted to Shirou's push and Alisae's reactions in realtime, and Alisae's focus on that immediate timeframe. I found this very rational and actually discussed it at length on Day 1.

You do not have the same chronological context, conviction, and focus on the interactions that Alisae did. Your reasons are likely worse than e's or nonexistent.