Mini Normal 2316 | Halloween | Endgame

[usesPython]

OWER/python/x

Maybe Shea? But I think he could actually be town here

Crazy that Hu Tao isn't on there

[usesPython]

We're literally saying that a doctor claim after a no kill isn't a mech clear and asking for a fullclaim, how is that not an obvious soft

I read that as you thinking Hu Tao was lying but I didn’t think you were trying to soft something. That makes sense now though

BlackStar/Hu Tao not paired, I think if scum!BlackStar knew Hu Tao was fakeclaiming they would have seen the soft

[usesPython]

We're literally saying that a doctor claim after a no kill isn't a mech clear and asking for a fullclaim, how is that not an obvious soft

I read that as you thinking Hu Tao was lying but I didn’t think you were trying to soft something. That makes sense now though

BlackStar/Hu Tao not paired, I think if scum!BlackStar knew Hu Tao was fakeclaiming they would have seen the soft

Like I think if both of them were scum their first instinct wouldn't have been "Python thinks Hu Tao is lying" but "Oh shit person whos night action Hu Tao is stealing is coming out"

[usesPython]

OWER/python/x

Maybe Shea? But I think he could actually be town here

Crazy that Hu Tao isn't on there

Like legitimately if you think an uncontested BP claim after a no kill is scum cause we're going after Hu Tao over OWER then you really need to go and reset for a bit

[usesPython]

THS rn has that slimy "Oh shit my partner did something dumb" playing both sides vibe going on where he "has" to react to the doctor claim but also doesn't really wanna have that be the focus of the thread while trying to pull back to the OWER lim

I'm making the doctor claim the focus of the thread because I'm not resting until Hu Tao answers

VOTE: OutworldER

I don't like everything I've seen from Black, but with the Macho watcher claim I feel like we can afford to leave her alone for today. I townread Smiley and Python right now. POE on Wartortle's bandwagon yesterday is telling me that its Outworld

[usesPython]

Why do you want me to suspect Hu Tao so badly?

Don't twist our words, we're calling you out for doing the scum thing you said you wouldn't be doing

[usesPython]

Why do you want me to suspect Hu Tao so badly?

Don't twist our words, we're calling you out for doing the scum thing you said you wouldn't be doing

That's what you're saying, but what it really feels like is you're indirectly pressuring me to vote Hu Tao.

That argument only works if Hu Tao flips red

[usesPython]

That argument only works if Hu Tao flips red

Like you can't be scum for moving votes away from Hu Tao towards OWER if Hu Tao flips green so I don't see why you're feeling subtly pressured there

[usesPython]

She retracted before the cc

She retracted after a soft

[usesPython]

VOTE: OWER

I don't know why scum!Hu would claim Doc here and then back off right away instead of just faking a target. Doesn't really make sense to me the more I think about it

She backed off cause we were very clearly softing that we had something to do the lack of nightkill and therefore didn't need to keep the claim anymore since it already forced a cc

Please re-read. You said something AFTER I said I'm not doc.

We softed that we had something to do with the lack of nightkill

before

you retracted your claim unless you wanna say that a VT would normally immediately ask for a fullclaim and start saying a doctor isn't mech clear when a no kill happened

[usesPython]

Can we just kill Hu Tao already

[usesPython]

VOTE: OWER

I don't know why scum!Hu would claim Doc here and then back off right away instead of just faking a target. Doesn't really make sense to me the more I think about it

She backed off cause we were very clearly softing that we had something to do the lack of nightkill and therefore didn't need to keep the claim anymore since it already forced a cc

Please re-read. You said something AFTER I said I'm not doc.

We softed that we had something to do with the lack of nightkill

before

you retracted your claim unless you wanna say that a VT would normally immediately ask for a fullclaim and start saying a doctor isn't mech clear when a no kill happened

Considering others thought the same yes

Other people are coming at it from the perspective of not being involved with the nightkill, we're asking specifically if you're saying that a VT would normally do what we did

[usesPython]

Why as scum would I claim doctor with only 3 votes on me and retract right away.

Because you already got the reaction you needed

[usesPython]

Why are we even having this convo, you're literally maf

[usesPython]

Other people are coming at it from the perspective of not being involved with the nightkill, we're asking specifically if you're saying that a VT would normally do what we did

Like this isn't a hard concept to grasp and idk why people are struggling with it, when scum claim doctor here they know they're like 95% of the time stealing a Doctor/Jailkeeper protect and so as soon as someone starts calling them out in the slightest way they can assume that's the person whos action they're stealing and back off instead of waiting for them to fully claim

[usesPython]

Why as scum would I claim doctor with only 3 votes on me and retract right away.

Because you already got the reaction you needed

So you're saying instead of trying to stay alive I would want to die after 3 votes? Make it make sense

People are literally refusing to vote you here cause you backtracked on your claim, how is that wanting to die

[usesPython]

People are literally refusing to vote you here cause you backtracked on your claim, how is that wanting to die

Because they can understand why scum wouldn't be scared of a cc in this situation

You do not unironically think you'd win a 1v1 cc battle if we'd claimed Doctor there

[usesPython]

Why not? I can be very convincing as scum.

We're townlean'd or better by like over half the playerlist, the only person who was TRing you before the claim was like Naerys. You straight up do not win a cc battle there after getting cc'd by a Doctor/Jailkeeper claim

[usesPython]

Why not? I can be very convincing as scum.

We're townlean'd or better by like over half the playerlist, the only person who was TRing you before the claim was like Naerys. You straight up do not win a cc battle there after getting cc'd by a Doctor/Jailkeeper claim

When it comes to counter claims it doesn't always depend on what happened before but during, either way silly conversation. If I magically was revealed town who do you think is scum?

Gimme a bit we're not in the headstate to consider a town!Hu Tao game rn

[usesPython]

Black can be left alone until massclaim I think since Macho implies the existence of like Doctor or Jailkeeper (Probably not Jailkeeper since you wouldn't need to make the Watcher Macho to make the setup work in that case) or something

[usesPython]

Wiz's strong scumread on Hu Tao before the claim looks pretty bad

[usesPython]

I'm a doctor

If you're claiming you might as well fullclaim

I'm a doctor what else is there to claim?

Target cause you're claim isn't a mech clear even with the lack of nightkill

We're literally saying that a doctor claim after a no kill isn't a mech clear and asking for a fullclaim, how is that not an obvious soft

I read that as you thinking Hu Tao was lying but I didn’t think you were trying to soft something. That makes sense now though

This feels like he knows both Hu Tao and Python are town cause the first instinct is to assume the claim is real and that we thought you were lying

[usesPython]

Enchant, Roden are fine. I don't feel like ISOing so why's OWER TRing Hu Tao again?

[usesPython]

Smiley and Shea are fine, THS has that slimey feel with how he's approaching this

[usesPython]

You should stop pretending you are solving if your scumreads are players hates by majority of game.

Who is SRing Wiz and Blackstar

[usesPython]

THS too

[usesPython]

I don't get how your head works. Fine for what?

We're solving under the assumption of a town!Hu Tao world cause we got asked

and fine as in not scum

[usesPython]

Enchant, Roden are fine. I don't feel like ISOing so why's OWER TRing Hu Tao again?

Oh it's 575/581, yeah that's pretty bad

[usesPython]

Why not? I can be very convincing as scum.

We're townlean'd or better by like over half the playerlist, the only person who was TRing you before the claim was like Naerys. You straight up do not win a cc battle there after getting cc'd by a Doctor/Jailkeeper claim

When it comes to counter claims it doesn't always depend on what happened before but during, either way silly conversation. If I magically was revealed town who do you think is scum?

Probably a team with some combination of OWER/THS/BlackStar in it

[usesPython]

Setup spec wise we're inclined to believe one of Smiley/BlackStar is fake simply because it's not immediately obvious for most people how the scenario of JK + BG + Mafia targeting the same person resolves

-Nameless

[usesPython]

Can Enchant/Black post their results already instead of pointlessly bickering

-Nameless

[usesPython]

I mean, all those roles are in the Simple compartment, even if this game was not made with that system in mind, they're in that compartment for a reason. And the resolution isn't complicated, Jailkeep is considered it's own action type under NAR and resolves before Protection or Kill so it's not very complex for the mod to keep track of and the players only have to look at the NAR page for 2 seconds.

It's not immediately obvious how it resolves because it's not immediately obvious if the Bodyguard dies there or not (they don't because BG resolves only if their target would be dead without the BG's action. Since the JK stops the kill the BG doesn't trigger). Also that's not how NAR resolves in that situation because you can resolve it with just the golden rule by:

1. JK's action not affected by Maf or BG, it resolves first
   
2. Resolve BG since it can affect the mafia NK here
   
3. Resolve maf shot

The fact that we even have to explain how NAR resolves here is yet another point in it being too complicated for the old Simple guidelines to pass as a Simple

-Nameless

[usesPython]

Can Enchant/Black post their results already instead of pointlessly bickering

-Nameless

I watched you. Smiley and BlackStar both visited you last night

I'm probably going to think Enchant is scum regardless of what he claims now just because of how he maneuvered around the claims today

Why are there two protectives on a BP what is wrong with people

-Nameless

[usesPython]

Black - Macho 2-shot Watcher
Smiley - Lazy JK
Naerys - VT
Annie - VT
Enchant - ?
Roden - VT
THS - JOAT (Vig/Tracker/Doc)
OWER - VT
BlackStar - BG
Shea - VT
Python - 1-shot BP

[usesPython]

I think the protectives being balanced around giving town an extra lim by comboing the Vig shot with a stopped kill through BP/Doc/JK makes a decent amount of sense and BG is the odd one out in that case

-Nameless

[usesPython]

Why are there two protectives on a BP what is wrong with people

-Nameless

Actually Occam's razor probably applies here and what makes more sense was we got shot N1 and N2 and the Jailkeeper stopped the kill tonight

-Nameless

[usesPython]

VOTE: BlackStar

[usesPython]

I… hm… I do find it quite convenient that the Bodyguard did target two people who were already protected from danger by the Jailkeeper (who claimed before he did).

However, I feel like if BlackStar would tell a lie, it would be something a bit less miraculous as to be less suspicious, right? It’s weird, but I feel it’s honest for that’s reason.

Why would a Bodyguard be on a 1-Shot BP?

-Nameless

[usesPython]

I… hm… I do find it quite convenient that the Bodyguard did target two people who were already protected from danger by the Jailkeeper (who claimed before he did).

Also different N1 targets, HoldSteady got JK'd, Shea got BG'd

-Nameless

[usesPython]

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... ple_Normal

Wrong page, you want the old Normal Rules if we're working under the assumption that the JK isn't an autolim for claiming Lazy. For that the guidelines for what's a simple is:

• Moderators may declare a complexity rating of either Simple or Complex for their Normal Game when the game goes into signups.
  • Complexity is defined by the following collection of characteristics. The more of them that a game has, the more likely it should be labeled complex rather than simple. The reverse is true as well: the fewer of these are applicable, the more likely the setup ought to be labeled as simple rather than complex.
    • Having several roles with modifiers, especially modifiers that affect targeting (e.g. simple, loyal) or fundamentally affect the way one would play the role (e.g. announcing, weak)
      
    • Having some roles with several modifiers
      
    • Having a large proportion of non-vanilla roles in general
      
    • Having anything that could be construed as a red herring (e.g., two of the same town role, a backup or enabler without a main role, a neighborhood with only mafia, a miller without a cop, etc.)
      
    • Having complicated interactions between roles (e.g. multiple blocking roles that may affect each other, generally anything that might make a reviewer need to think twice about how it would work)
      
    • Having many roles that aren't seen as frequently in normal games
      
    • Anything else that would potentially defy the expectations of a player who's played normal games before
  • Reviewers may choose to suggest or request a complexity rating, but complexity ratings are never mandatory.
    
  • If a moderator wants to use a complexity label, a reviewer needs to approve it.

[usesPython]

Oh, I was thinking because Ninja isn't Simple and couldn't be in the set up, then we can pretty much guarantee the killer had to be Blackstar

Idk now though

Scum aren't gonna be given a Ninja to counter just a 2-shot Watcher and a 1-shot Tracker, especially since there's an unclaimed no result from THS night 2

-Nameless

[usesPython]

This game follows old rules.

Lazy is possible modifier.

Have you claimed yet?

-Nameless

[usesPython]

No.

Can you?

-Nameless

[usesPython]

Massclaim already happened, might as well finish it so we can mech solve

-Nameless

[usesPython]

The night one results on me don't make any damn sense.

How? THS tried to shoot you but failed because the Jailkeeper roleblocked the vig action

[usesPython]

If not a Mafia RB then maybe OWER is some type of scum role that prevents themselves from being investigated/watched

Normal roles that would let you do that:

• Alien (role)
  
• Ascetic
  
• Commuter
  
• Rolestopper

[usesPython]

Do any of these roles make sense in this setup balance-wise?

I think if there's Ascetic or Commuter there'd still need to be another maf PR to deal with the amount of protectives we have. Alien by itself is a possibility and targeting either OWER or THS would explain the N2 results. Rolestopper wouldn't address the protectives and doesn't really do anything in the setup so probably not.

Most likely we're looking at either Roleblocker targeting THS or Alien targeting THS/OWER

[usesPython]

Having OWER Ascetic as like a side thing while he also has an active role is also possible too actually

[usesPython]

I personally would risking to not kill watcher.

... But attacking bulletproof claim unless i already attacked them before, that's not something i would do. Why if i can always just kill watcher?
Or why if i have roleblock i just... Don't roleblock you?

... Hm. Maybe it points at Python even more, because you can't be saved. Mafia didn't bother to roleblock you but roleblocked THS. Maybe they didn't expect you live.

Or your claim is bogus, but likelyhood again is 1%.


That's why i advocate for both with Black first.

If maf is shooting us it means they shot us N1 and again N2, and ignoring the Watcher RB to try to RB another PR under the assumption that they're not gonna be watching the BP claim isn't that crazy imo

[usesPython]

Like roleblocking Black guarantees everyone knows roughly what the maf PR is (since No Result), if they need Black alive for dayplay reasons then surviving a single watcher check turns her into basically vanilla

[usesPython]

Actually OWER being an unclaimed Ascetic makes more sense than a roleblocker tbh

[usesPython]

Actually OWER being an unclaimed Ascetic makes more sense than a roleblocker tbh

Maf Aliening OWER to force a no result on a slot that's probably getting checked isn't that crazy either

[usesPython]

One thing I don't get about the setup is why Black is Macho. Even in the case where every single protective is real (JOAT doc, Lazy JK, BG) there's still no point in making the Watcher Macho when the only TP chain that can happen is one night of JOAT Doc/Watcher. JK roleblocks the Watcher so no chain there and BG taking a bullet doesn't get seen by Watcher chaining since both maf and BG visit the watcher

-Nameless

[usesPython]

Does anyone else think its weird scum would try to target a one-shot bulletproof after their first kill failed? I would've either killed watcher or tried to kill the person I thought was the protective role. Also, I think Python was leading us on yesterday when it came to limming Hu Tao. I think that Python led the scum kill last night but got caught by jailkeeper.

Why is it weird for scum to shoot us again if they felt it necessary to shoot us n1. If anything we were in a better position at the end of d2 than we were at the end of d1

[usesPython]

I don't think scum expected Watcher/JK to be on us since we claimed 1-shot BP

[usesPython]

Also, I think Python was leading us on yesterday when it came to limming Hu Tao.

Hu Tao literally fakeclaimed Doctor after a no kill and then retracted, you even literally hammered them

[usesPython]

ngl i briefly considered using my doc save on you but my role states i can only use one action and i didn't trust you as much after hu tao flipped town.

Literally why is everyone on a BP

[usesPython]

question: does bulletproof on this website get notified when they get hit or no?

no

[usesPython]

Also, I think Python was leading us on yesterday when it came to limming Hu Tao.

Hu Tao literally fakeclaimed Doctor after a no kill and then retracted, you even literally hammered them

i just don't think it was that damning. black had a very good argument why the fakeclaim wasn't scum and it basically went ignored. i hammered but only because his defense sounded fake. you were pressuring me to vote even before a defense was made which i find scummy.

I don't think Blacks case was that convincing tbh considering it was just "I don't get why scum!Hu Tao would do it". We thought scum!Hu Tao was forcing a cc and then backing off, and Black claiming Macho which would normally imply a Doctor in the setup didn't make it any better

[usesPython]

Also, why is Black still alive?

Cause now she's vanilla? If scum think they can dodge a single Watch then there's no point in killing her for her claim

[usesPython]

you were pressuring me to vote even before a defense was made which i find scummy.

We were scumreading you and did some premature preflip, I don't think we were pressuring you to vote Hu Tao though?

[usesPython]

THS rn has that slimy "Oh shit my partner did something dumb" playing both sides vibe going on where he "has" to react to the doctor claim but also doesn't really wanna have that be the focus of the thread while trying to pull back to the OWER lim

I'm making the doctor claim the focus of the thread because I'm not resting until Hu Tao answers

VOTE: OutworldER

I don't like everything I've seen from Black, but with the Macho watcher claim I feel like we can afford to leave her alone for today. I townread Smiley and Python right now. POE on Wartortle's bandwagon yesterday is telling me that its Outworld

Just checked; this is apparently the post we were pressuring you to vote Hu Tao in? Don't really see it

[usesPython]

Just checked; this is apparently the post we were pressuring you to vote Hu Tao in? Don't really see it

Like Hu Tao hadn't even posted between those two posts, I don't get why you think that's us pressuring you to vote Hu Tao

[usesPython]

you were pressuring me to vote even before a defense was made which i find scummy.

We were scumreading you and did some premature preflip, I don't think we were pressuring you to vote Hu Tao though?

You know I'd gotten very upset at being voted so I don't see how you could think calling me slimy for not voting could not be seen as pressure.

Sorry but imma be real, we didn't actually keep that close a track of who got upset this game and forgot you were one of them until you brought it up just now

[usesPython]

I can see how you'd consider that pressure then

[usesPython]

All the talk right now is about roles and what is and isn't possible and I don't know how any of that works. I guess I'll just go through the wikis or something

Don't you have 3.4k posts on this site? How would you not know about common Normal roles like Jailkeeper/JOAT/Bulletproof/Watcher?

[usesPython]

given that I couldn't even correctly parse them wrt myself on night one

I don't get what this means

[usesPython]

VOTE: BlackStar

This screams "it's time to bus" to me

That's e-2 and even though I'm like 95% down to fade BlackStar here, I don't think we should do it so fast. Trying to make him talk more is the play

Please no more votes. It really feels like scum is gearing up to have BS hammer himself

If you make it that blatant that he's getting limmed today he's gonna keep quiet lol

[usesPython]

its also a little bit disingenuous.

knowing what a role means in an intellectual sense !== being able to correctly parse how a setup with said roles fits together on the fly.

If you don't know how to setup spec then the wiki isn't gonna help you there, the only thing the wiki will give you is what the role does exactly

[usesPython]

Can one of the townies on BlackStar's wagon unvote? Just temporarily. If Annie is scum here then he's gearing up to vote there and BlackStar will just hammer and end the day short

UNVOTE: BlackStar

[usesPython]

What's the votecount btw?

[usesPython]

VOTE: usesPython

The simplest explanation for the lack of a night kill on N2 seems to be that Smiley really is the jailkeeper and you're scum

If you make it that blatant that he's getting limmed today he's gonna keep quiet lol

[usesPython]

This was the reads list I made when D2 ended, but I need to reread all the stuff from this day to see where I stand now

Town

Thestatusquo
usesPython
Enchant

Town Lean

Black

Null

TheHoldSteady
Roden

Scum Lean

OutworldER
Naerys

Scum

Smiley
AnimatedWiz

My top town read was thestatusquo or theholdsteady

[usesPython]

Look who's at the top: thestatusquo. Black was talking about the majority of the game. If you look through the reads lists I've posted, you'll see THS near the top of most of them before that

Blacks point is that we're also on the top

[usesPython]

If not a Mafia RB then maybe OWER is some type of scum role that prevents themselves from being investigated/watched

Normal roles that would let you do that:

• Alien (role)
  
• Ascetic
  
• Commuter
  
• Rolestopper

[usesPython]

Surprisingly... There is reason to elim outside.

11 players, 3 mafias.

One mafia at Smiley/BlackJack/Python.

8 players, 2 mafias.

I am town.

7 players, 2 mafias

Black probably untouchable and town anyway.

6 players, 2 mafias.

So we have roughly 1/3 chances. And then mafia will be forced to kill PRs and PRs will need to explain why BG didn't protect jailkeeper/whatever really and etc.

Your mech is wrong. In the Smiley/BlackStar/Python group assuming Black is real it means Smiley didn't do the kill since otherwise BlackStar would be dead

[usesPython]

haha i am bad

The trick is to never check your own votes

[usesPython]

Mafia can skip kills surprisingly.

Why would maf holster here? It forces them to survive an extra day since it brings the game from evens to odds

[usesPython]

What do you think happened last night, Naerys?

From an external perspective the only mechanical explanations for the missing nightkill are:

1. scum!BlackStar attacks town!Python, fails due to town!Smiley Jailkeep
   
2. scum!Python attacks someone, fails due to town!Smiley Jailkeep
   
3. Scum holster (Doesn't explain why scum would holster on evens)
   
4. Ninja attacks town!Python (Would be weird to have a Ninja just to counter 2-Shot Watcher and 1-Shot Tracker, especially since those are towns only investigative roles)
   
5. Scum attacks town!Python and scum!Black lies about watcher results (Would be weird to have 1-Shot Tracker be towns only investigative role)
   
6. town!Enchant is secretly a PR and stopped the nightkill and also kept quiet for some reason (Good one)

[usesPython]

I still think we should go BlackStar but I'm not opposed to going OWER

We'd prefer BlackStar for obvious reasons but OWER isn't a bad lim either

[usesPython]

Smiley mentioned waiting to fade until we plan out night actions. Do we think that's a good idea? I feel like it gives the Mafia more information but I want to hear what people smarter than me think

The only night actions still in play are a JOAT Doctor shot and a Lazy Jailkeeper, what is there to plan out?

[usesPython]

Cool cool

VOTE: BlackStar

[usesPython]

Python do you have a read on Naerys

Did it look like BlackStar lim was inevitable to you? Cause to us it did and I don't really see the point of stepping off the bus to be the first person to suggest pushing a VT today

[usesPython]

Like her play would make sense in a Ninja game so that this fight gets delayed just long enough to basically mechanically lock the game for scum by forcing this to be resolved during ELO but Ninja game mechanically doesn't make that much sense to us

[usesPython]

If BlackStar is town and we leave him alive then Mafia have to kill him or risk more kills getting blocked right?

Bodyguard still dies when stopping a kill so the only way he'd die in that scenario is if he successfully blocked a kill

[usesPython]

From an external perspective the only mechanical explanations for the missing nightkill are:

1. scum!BlackStar attacks town!Python, fails due to town!Smiley Jailkeep
   
2. scum!Python attacks someone, fails due to town!Smiley Jailkeep
   
3. Scum holster (Doesn't explain why scum would holster on evens)
   
4. Ninja attacks town!Python (Would be weird to have a Ninja just to counter 2-Shot Watcher and 1-Shot Tracker, especially since those are towns only investigative roles)
   
5. Scum attacks town!Python and scum!Black lies about watcher results (Would be weird to have 1-Shot Tracker be towns only investigative role)
   
6. town!Enchant is secretly a PR and stopped the nightkill and also kept quiet for some reason (Good one)

[usesPython]

Black - Macho 2-shot Watcher
N1: Annie. No one.
N2: Python. Smiley, BlackStar.

Smiley - Lazy JK
N1: THS.
N2: Python

Naerys - VT
Annie - VT
Enchant - ???
Roden - VT
THS - JOAT (Vig/Tracker/Doc)
N1: Vig (Thestatusquo). Fail.
N2: Track (OWER). No result.
OWER - VT
BlackStar - BG
N1: Thestatusquo
N2: usesPython

Thestatusquo - VT
Python - 1-shot BP

[usesPython]

My currently scumteam is Roden/OWER/BlackStar, and in that order.

I don't get why Roden is so high on that list

[usesPython]

My currently scumteam is Roden/OWER/BlackStar, and in that order.

I don't get why Roden is so high on that list

His slot’s interactions with me early on in D1 made me incredibly suspicious of the a lot—the arguments felt disingenuous and like it was less about pushing his own theories as much as it was about trying to push me onto the chopping block. OWER jumped on that wagon with even more spurious logic, and notably BlackStar was also on there too.

I think I was the miselim target for the scumteam for the beginning of D1—that my hasty read of Naerys was an easy argument for pushing me.

Additionally, the way Roden’s been playing the game, with a lot of lurking mixed with quick bits of AtE—not to mention an open unwillingness to contribute
—all strengthen that point. Roden isn’t giving any illusion of solving with his posts, and the fact that he hasn’t even finished that initial catch-up readslist or shared more than tiny little nuggets of thoughts makes it clear to me that he’s scum.

Still don't get how a Roden lim is more likely to hit red than what's mechanically basically a 1f1

[usesPython]

Python why do you think Roden is town

Only thing in our notes is a DE read so idk, but if their posting was that bad I figure we'd have probably commented on it there at some point

[usesPython]

Python why do you think Roden is town

Only thing in our notes is a DE read so idk, but if their posting was that bad I figure we'd have probably commented on it there at some point

Like if Rodens dayplay was so scummy that they're more likely to flip red than a 1f1 or an unexplained no result why is there nothing about it in our notes PT

[usesPython]

You don't have any notes on the DE slot since Roden replaced in?

Yeah? The only interesting thing they did this game was get into a fight with you, the rest of the game they've been ignored while other stuff kept happening

[usesPython]

Not like we comment on every little thing

[usesPython]

Are day still going

Be the change you want to see in the world

[usesPython]

UNVOTE:

I think there's an argument to be made that BlackStar will either be a NK target or he'll die by protecting someone. If neither of those things happen then it should be safe to fade him closer to ELO

I think the better play is to fade python first, or Roden/Naerys if we want to try to go for a VT

If I assume BlackStar is town then I think the most likely scenario here is that Smiley blocked python from making the NK

VOTE: usesPython

Mechanically speaking from your perspective Blackstar never gets shot while we're still alive and he won't die protecting someone because of the combo of unaccounted for no result + you being Macho makes there be enough safe kills

[usesPython]

And it's not like we have macho targets which BG can't protect.

If BlackStar really is the BG then why would he ever target me? What is the point of saying this?

The point is that if he were real there'd still be a guaranteed kill he can't stop so your mech solve is bad

[usesPython]

Like there's no real mech solve to be made here that narrows it down further than Python/Blackstar being a 1f1 no matter how long we delay it

[usesPython]

Python deserved to go for constant mentions of notes PT and anime avatar

[usesPython]

Python deserved to go for constant mentions of notes PT and anime avatar

It's actually pretty funny that all the people getting scumread this game have anime pfp's

[usesPython]

This is not anime avatar

Our avatar is actually from a gatcha game

[usesPython]

Python deserved to go for constant mentions of notes PT and anime avatar

It's actually pretty funny that all the people getting scumread this game have anime pfp's

This is a video game avatar, fam

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persona_5:_The_Animation

[usesPython]

[usesPython]

How are python/OWER bussing each other?

I think THS is saying we're bussing OWER, not that OWER is bussing us

[usesPython]

UNVOTE:

I think there's an argument to be made that BlackStar will either be a NK target or he'll die by protecting someone. If neither of those things happen then it should be safe to fade him closer to ELO

I think the better play is to fade python first, or Roden/Naerys if we want to try to go for a VT

If I assume BlackStar is town then I think the most likely scenario here is that Smiley blocked python from making the NK

VOTE: usesPython

Actually I don't get this, Python/Blackstar is a 1f1 but you leave Blackstar for later cause you think he can confirm himself if he's real but then flip us today anyways? Like that automatically resolves this fight I don't get your logic for going for us here

[usesPython]

I think Smiley might have stopped your night kill. If you flip town I wouldn't be opposed to flipping BS next

wdym "wouldn't be opposed" it's literally a 1f1

[usesPython]

Black explain to me in your own words the mech in play here cause I think you're running under some misunderstandings

[usesPython]

What do you think I'm misunderstanding?

I don't know but if your immediate reaction to us flipping town isn't "ok time to have a red Blackstar flip" then there's gotta be something

[usesPython]

I'll trust your mech here if you flip town

I mean that works too but if you're flipping us on faulty mech we'd rather skip that part and go straight to a red flip

[usesPython]

What's faulty about thinking Smiley blocked your NK?

No that part's possible from your point of you, it's more the question of why you think it's likelier than BlackStar shooting us

[usesPython]

Like scum have inherent multitasking and we know there's a missing night action so that'd mean we'd have to not be the blocker but also did the kill for some reason instead of loading up all the actions on one person?

[usesPython]

Well I started to feel sus of your BP claim. It feels like it would be a good claim for you for a couple reasons if you're scum here

One, you get to use it to try and fade Hu Tao. And two it makes it so you're less likely to be targeted by a role that could interfere with you making the NK, like the JK

If you're scum here then you made the NK assuming no JK would possibly target the BP, and it backfired

Macho implies the existence of a Doctor though, not a Jailkeeper. Think we mentioned that D2 as well which would be before the massclaim. As scum here we'd be focusing more on investigative roles like Watcher/Tracker over Jailkeeper and for that I don't get why we wouldn't just have the blocker double up on actions and let us deepwolf to victory

[usesPython]

Like if you didn't claim Macho D2 you'd probably have an argument that Jailkeeper should be considered but when there's already an implied Doctor and with Watcher pulling double duty as a protective role worrying about Jailkeeper doesn't seem like something we'd do here

[usesPython]

Black can be left alone until massclaim I think since Macho implies the existence of like Doctor or Jailkeeper (Probably not Jailkeeper since you wouldn't need to make the Watcher Macho to make the setup work in that case) or something

[usesPython]

Python this is the exact same thing you did in Fire & Ice. You're really good at trying to convince people you're not scum by saying you wouldn't do things if you were scum in those positions

There's a difference between "If we were scum we'd be sheeping instead of starting a new wagon" in FaI and "If we were scum we'd have to deliberately make suboptimal night actions and then also not get stopped by the rest of the scumteam" that you're implying here

[usesPython]

Python this is the exact same thing you did in Fire & Ice. You're really good at trying to convince people you're not scum by saying you wouldn't do things if you were scum in those positions

There's a difference between "If we were scum we'd be sheeping instead of starting a new wagon" in FaI and "If we were scum we'd have to deliberately make suboptimal night actions and then also not get stopped by the rest of the scumteam" that you're implying here

Can you explain why the night actions would be suboptimal in a world where OWER is a Mafia Ascetic or Commuter?

Commuter doesn't make sense in the setup and if OWER is Ascetic then that's even more reason to have then do the kill

[usesPython]

Commuter doesn't make sense in the setup and if OWER is Ascetic then that's even more reason to have then do the kill

To be specific, Mafia Commuter is extremely rare (as in the last two Normal games to have one were from 2020 and 2018) and also does nothing to address any town roles other than the Vig shot

[usesPython]

Python this is the exact same thing you did in Fire & Ice. You're really good at trying to convince people you're not scum by saying you wouldn't do things if you were scum in those positions

There's a difference between "If we were scum we'd be sheeping instead of starting a new wagon" in FaI and "If we were scum we'd have to deliberately make suboptimal night actions and then also not get stopped by the rest of the scumteam" that you're implying here

Can you explain why the night actions would be suboptimal in a world where OWER is a Mafia Ascetic or Commuter?

Commuter doesn't make sense in the setup and if OWER is Ascetic then that's even more reason to have then do the kill

Commuter doesn't make sense in the setup and if OWER is Ascetic then that's even more reason to have then do the kill

This is a good point—I think that if there was a Mafia Ascetic, they would be chosen to kill due to you claiming Watcher, Black.

According to the wiki, Ascetic can be designed in a way where they lose their ability if they make the hit. Why are both of you assuming this can't be the case here?

Read the setup, mafia have inherent multitasking so they'd keep Ascetic while making the kill

[usesPython]

Also the Variations tab in wiki pages only applies to non-Normals, for Normals you want to be reading the part that says Normal version

[usesPython]

Like what are y'all even doing right now

We’re trying to figure out mech, mostly—have any insights?

There have been no kills for the past two nights

Night 1: THS Vig'd Shea, Smiley JK'd Shea

Night 2: Smiley JK'd Python

Python has claimed 1-shot BP

What do you think it means in a world where Blackstar flips red and Python is confirmed as town

Smiley JK'd THS not Shea

[usesPython]

its equally likely that scum python submits the kill to protect a partner, either because they were afraid of the heat on their slot after the hu tao push

This logic fails when you realize there's 6 other people on the wagon with us including slots like Roden/Naerys/Enchant that're scumread as hell

[usesPython]

its equally likely that scum python submits the kill to protect a partner because there are partners with more valuable powers

This also falls flat when you consider that we'd be focusing on avoiding Tracker/Watcher and for that doubling up on night actions to minimize the chances of getting hit by a Tracker is optimal because a tracked/watched Roleblock already is basically a red check

[usesPython]

do you think python is genuinely playing to town wincon? how do you actually read the hu tao push?

This is pretty biased by knowing that Hu Tao flipped town unless you wanna say that you're also not playing to town wincon? We pushed them cause we thought they were scum and enough people agreed with our push afterwards to make it happen

[usesPython]

Can the people voting outside the 1f1 stop being useless

[usesPython]

That readslist is incredibly strange and the progression of Voting BlackStar --> Thinking it's better to vote inside the VT's --> Python SR is not one that feels natural or real to me.

Thats how my town!me operates. *shrug*

What made you go from voting BlackStar to voting us?

[usesPython]

Can the people voting outside the 1f1 stop being useless

How would you say that your reads have differentiated from each other? You all have seemed to be pretty much on the same page.

If we all had to make individual reads for every person we literally wouldn't be able to play the game lol. If one of us has like a strong read the rest of us just go "ok then" and don't really bother forming an opinion past that

[usesPython]

If we all had to make individual reads for every person we literally wouldn't be able to play the game lol. If one of us has like a strong read the rest of us just go "ok then" and don't really bother forming an opinion past that

Only time that's not the case is when we do re-reads which is what happened with Wartle going from the townbin from an early viberead to a scumread when we actually re-read the game

[usesPython]

Our job here is done

[usesPython]

God this game was a shitshow I love it

No redactions

[usesPython]

The funniest part of day 3 was making the complicated mech solve on why it'd never be optimal for us to make the kill due to inherent multitasking after posting

You know I just realised we're all multitasking by default