Last Will Mafia II (Over)

[Charlie]

VOTE: CSL
Because it is easy to type.

[Charlie]

Toothless!

[Charlie]

Hey everyone. Twomz and Nacho give me scum vibes. Diacria needs to die regardless of alignment. Millar is town.

Odd, I think toothless abd Nacho gave me town vibes. Agreed on the other two statements though.

UNVOTE: CSL
VOTE: Diacria

[Charlie]

Déjà vu...

[Charlie]

I doubt that, ElliDiacria.

[Charlie]

SSBF, RVS isn't about fun, it's about gauging reactions out of people. Normal play can not start until this happens. Longer RVS = longer Day 1 = more chance of a scumslip.

Uh, I believe one does not get to dictate such things.

[Charlie]

Right, I'm saying that RVS can be about fun.

[Charlie]

Would you try, at the very least?

[Charlie]

To have fun during RVS/To make RVS fun.

[Charlie]

Whopee.

[Charlie]

Jester?

Impossible! None exist in this game.

[Charlie]

Hey, are you dictating things?

[Charlie]

Twomz, no, I'm not playing "OMGREACTIONZ". I actually think you are scum.

-------------

Raider might be scum.

If toothless is scum, then raider probably is too.

[Charlie]

Everyone should at least read raider8169 in ISO and judge from there. Diacria's list is all over the place.

UNVOTE: Diacria
VOTE: raider8169

[Charlie]

@Charlie: Why are you worried about other players lists? Especially when nobody is over like 3-4 votes.

No.

[Charlie]

You don't get to dictate these sort of things, you know.

[Charlie]

I acknowledge the happenings in this thread, and feel that I have nothing to respond to at the moment. Carry on, good people!

[Charlie]

@Charlie: Then why are you criticizing her list for "being all over the place"?

I will shoot you in the face if you don't answer.

My official response is: I don't take well to threats.
But since this is mafia, a game all about suspicion and whatnot, my other response is: I'm not a critic. I just have my own opinions.

[Charlie]

@Charlie: So what does it matter if you don't completely agree with Diacria's town list?

As an individual who is aware of the self, I'm entitled to the right to my own opinions and will voice them out so long as I'm able too. Oh, and so long that it remains legal to do so too. I don't take lightly to lawbreaking.

Besides, I'm listed at the bottom of that thing. Of course I'm objectionable to it since I've done nothing to earn that spot.

Hey millar13, why did you get an avatar? Aren't they useless things to you?

[Charlie]

Hm.

Shattered Viewpoint, if you would like it, could you drag my previous games into this?

[Charlie]

No, Diabereth. I was never Wally to begin with. You've got me all wrong. And for the record, Amished is also "weirding me out" so to speak largly due to the fact that he isn't acting like how he did as scum in one completed large theme game I know.

[Charlie]

Oh, I said that I think you're town, Amished.

[Charlie]

Amished, it was weird beacuse you have left 4 dead an everlasting impression that you're scummy. You don't fit the same bill now. Don't get all stressed up about it.

[Charlie]

I'm sorry, Pitbunny? Can you clarify?

[Charlie]

I am inclined to believe that millar13 is town then.

[Charlie]

But I've done waaay too much catching up today, and honestly, I'm tired of mafia for a day.

Did you forget sarcasm tags?

[Charlie]

Oh Jesus Christ don't you start

[Charlie]

No Duh, Sherlock. And you haven't been useful lately, what with this:

Unvote Vote: CSL

lets form a wagon

And this:

You don't get to dictate these things, you know.

Unvote

Vote: Pittbunny

I strongly believe more votes on raider would be constructive.

[Charlie]

^Toothless's apprearance seems convenient, no?

[Charlie]

holycon, by any chance are you familiar with someone who goes by the name of razorback, here in MS?

[Charlie]

Right now I would be ok with lynching Twomz or RichardGHP. That or any of the slots that have yet to do anything in this game.

What about CSL?

[Charlie]

I'd be willing to lynch Shattered Viewpoint based on policy (the dictator policy). Also, SSBF. These two are okay lynches.

[Charlie]

Coz then I'll get to dictate things.

[Charlie]

Oh wut deadlines in 4 days.

Twomz, I didn't mean your vote was disturbing. I meant that it's disturbing that nobody is voting you.

I would vote toothless. But I'm concerned that we'll end up with a no lynch.
Also: CSL, SSBF.

[Charlie]

Uh...Xite91, that last paragraph? Probably bad news.

[Charlie]

A wise person (on the internet, regarding internet arguments) once said: Save the drama for the llama. Appropriate!

Once again: more votes on raider/toothless/SSBF.
Reasoning for SSBF is mainly gut, don't rely on that being serious at the moment.

[Charlie]

Why not Richard instead?

Because alphabetically, you're ahead of him?
No, seriously, you're scummier than Richard. He made a few boo-boos, but I'll pass that up D1.

Let's see now...
CSL, raider, toothless, perhaps SSBF... SV! Well, that would be policy lynching. Sound good to me!

UNVOTE: raider8169
VOTE: Shattered Viewpoint

Let's keep it moving.

[Charlie]

Oh, I disagree with Rhinox.

I'd prefer more policy lynches.

VOTE: millar13

[Charlie]

I want that case against me! It is really exciting.

[Charlie]

I know when to admit that I'm wrong.
UNVOTE: millar13

CSL it is.
VOTE: CSL

I like that case against me. I'd believe it, but to to circumstances of me being me, I unfortunately don't. The case is more correct than wrong.

[Charlie]

An interesting case on me there, SSBF. After reading it, I become more convinced that I'm town.

Nachomamma8's case on EGL is goodposting.

[Charlie]

I'm already voting for the scum!

[Charlie]

Too much thinking, Jahudo. I'm trying not to over-think stuff. I'll save you some time: Don't bother to meta. I'm doing it (mostly) different. I believe a minimalistic approach in a large theme game can be useful, coupled with playing by gut.

You see, you say stuff like that, people will think "Hey, that's pro-town!". And stuff.

Let's take a look at toothless' Town reads:
Rhinox: Maybe
Nacho: Agree
Ythan: Agree but for different reasons
raider: Fail
SSBF: I really have no idea
Jahudo: Ooh, yes
kmd: Agree but for different reasons
Magua: Maybe, don't know
holycon: Fail

Also scum reads:
Amished: Fail, but interesting point
chronopie: Maybe
CSL: Agree
EGL: I reserve judgement
Richard: Hmm
Xite: Oh my goodness
Charlie: Fail

[Charlie]

@millar13: Go look up this picture where there is a pregnant mother of about 8 months gestation (in her third trimester) in the background, out of focus due to a feline intruder popping its head in front of the camera, bringing it into focus. Then imagine large a impact font caption on the bottom part of this picture, saying Hypokrit.

@Twomz: That would require me to "work". Aw, do I really have to?

@Pittbunny: For what its worth, toothless' original case on me seems better. Just my 2 cents.

@Xite91: That would require me to "work". Aw, do I really have to, mom?

Incidentally, Ythan is right.

[Charlie]

Hm, yeah..seems like there is something wrong with that last post, Xite91.

[Charlie]

I'd like to take a moment to ponder about mafia inventors.

[Charlie]

Xite91 is unlikely to be mafia aligned. Look at how she answers questions in ISO #56.

Toothless of late is pushing for my lynch in such a subtle way. I don't like it, (not because I've been in the lynch spotlight) there are better ones out there. What do you think about mafia inventors?

The way RichardGHP answers questions are slightly off, but he's town enough.

So you are playing differently then your meta. Normally I hate metas but seeing as you are purposely playing different I would like to know how you are playing different to see if it has any merits.

Also, why do you disagree with someone's read without actually giving reason for any of it?

UNVOTE: CSL
VOTE: raider8169

Kmd4390 doesn't say much. Just now he said my lynch would be bad. Okay, but he's sitting pretty here for a reason. A reason, I tell you people.

Ythan is Ythan. I remember you.

In summary, I can only make a town list. I cannot make a mafia list. Thus that will be all.

[Charlie]

Reactions, reactions, reactions. That is good.

Magua, please attack me with more conviction.

Charlie: Overall, Charlie's responses to the cases against him have been....lacking. Charlie's cases against others have been likewise lacking (see post #834), and when asked to explain or elaborate on why he feels a way, the question is dodged. I remain very pro-Charlie-lynch.

MafSepia isn't the same

[Charlie]

Ooh, sharp point. I'll never think the same again.

[Charlie]

Toothless, who else besides me?

[Charlie]

I think I'm going out on a limb here!

Toothless and Xite91 are obvtown.

I need to get some serious analysis up on this game. Maybe by the end of the week...

@Amished: If I'm the back-burner, who is the suntan lotion?

[Charlie]

What's the point of observing from the sidelines anymore? I'll spill my thoughts on the last 10 pages.

Quick recap: I think toothless and Xite91 are town, by inclusion, Ythan follows because inventor ---> Ythan (gun).
Ythan claimed the kill on Diacria N1 (I think). If this is true, then I call shenanigans on the lack of a Mafia kill N1. The first Last Will Mafia had 2 scum teams, there should be at least 3 deaths N1.

I cannot read Jahudo due to avatar bias. The red panda is distracting, and all his posts are diluted because of it. I'm not joking: this happened to me before in my second Newbie game here, long completed. It was squirrels that time.

SSBF's walls are typically pro-town, ever so slightly. Not much to say about his opinions as I have mixed feelings about them. The people he suspects are all fall under "good lynch candidates" i.e. neutral to slightly scummy reads. That said, I'd rather not bet on it.

On page 32, there was talk about lynching a claimed BP. That's a terrible idea. (Policy lynch, however, is a different matter. Both options are rather lousy IMHO) Vig would be okay, however due to certain reasons I believe this is difficult to accomplish. We're best going with Ythan's suggestion #800: leave millar13 alone.

Amished is town by gut. Strong town read for what it is worth.

Nachomamma8's case on EGL seems interesting and didn't receive the correct amount of attention it deserves. Post after post made it "lost in transition" and I'd really like to hear opinions of others about it. #818
Sometimes (actually most of the time), the reactions to the case mean more than the case itself. There is little to go by here.

ISO Charlie from this game me and Charlie were in. If you read it, you'll notice that he was far more pro-town in that game and contributed a lot more to the game. He also took stances and tried to look for suspects. Most importantly, he was town.

I fully intend to revert to a non-lazy status and this post shall justify it. Consider rebuilding your case on me around that or find other suspects.

@Charlie (#892): Your vote on raider8169 contains absolutely no explanation. He asked you a simple question and then you vote him for it. That's kind of sad...<snip>
I'd be much more comfortable if you actually gave us a mafia list as opposed to a town list. Now granted, I don't have a problem with town lists, but I highly prefer to see mafia lists instead, as mafia lists (With explanation) make your suspects known to us.

Do you think it is a scumtell?
That is hard for me to put out; I'm doing my best and you have my word for it.

Thats not evidence, thats attempting to formulate a reason based on how you expect the mod to design the setup around the theme, otherwords - outguessing the mod.

Bullcrap. That and the entire post is far-fetched.

After #915, SSBF is more town looking...by gut.

Jahudo (as much as it is hard to read his posts) - Kmd4390 interactions are very interesting (page 38). I feel that the tone of their posts changed. Strange, wish they could interact more so we can draw further conclusions. For now I don't know what to make of this finding.

About the CPR Doctor claim by RichardGHP...not really convinced. Would be willing to place my vote on him.

After all that...who's mafia? Good question. It seems that I have no suspects. By process of elimination, I suspect the more lurkish/less active players. (I'd suspect myself too by this reasoning. Odd how things work.)

Unvote
FoS: raider8169
FoS: chronopie
FoS: EGL
Fos: animorpherv1
Fos: holycon

[Charlie]

So I don't have any suspicions on KMD now. I'm leaning Chronopie for #1 suspect.

Ah, noted.

42 pages of content and you finally put out a post with some content in it...

And you not only don't vote, but you FoS lurkers?

Can we just end this? There's no way a town player has no suspects besides lurkers with this much crap going on.

Oh my goodness, you are right! How silly of me.
VOTE: raider8169
Think about it, toothless. There is no way I could make that whole "42 pages without content" seem "good" for me. We do what we must because we can.

Charlie, tell me why Xite is town (no, I did not think the way she answers questions was a good reason, as you didn't explain that at all).

Hardcore interactions with others + suspects with reasonings = protown. Why do I need to convince you of my opinions when there is no danger of Xite91 being lynched at the moment?

[Charlie]

Reasons why RichardGHP should not be lynched Today:

1) He claimed CPR Doctor which is as good as a vig: Have his use his protect-kill on someone N2 and have him claim his action.
2) If he is telling the truth he can vig mafia or accidentally kill a townie; this works provided he isn't roleblocked. Therefore, nobody should mess with him N2.
3) If he is lying than we'll go from the kill(s).

I personally don't buy his claim, but it would be bad strategy to lynch him Today.

[Charlie]

Just realized that I contradicted myself in the last post and didn't pay attention to the Why Richard's claim is BS post by Rhinox. I'll get back to it later.

[Charlie]

Yes Jahudo. It was Kyiv. At one point her avatar were 2 squirrels, one handing the other a flower. It made every single one of her post distracting to the point of stunning.

[Charlie]

Hello. Don't mind this post, I've decided to pile up notes here for my own reference.

Toothless pushing for Charlie lynch most of D2. Thinks CSL is a good choice.
Jahudo takes a cautious approach to Charlie, up to now says is null.
KMD thinks Charlie is town.
Amished is not acting the same as Amished-scum in previous L4D mafia.
Rhinox agrees with Amished.
SSBF presents a case against Charlie --> much better than I remembered in previous newbie game with him.
millar13 is a waste of time.
holycon is lurking.
raider is V/LA.
Nacho starts off playing as he did in previous newbie game, but has since been less active. Based on this logic, he should be mafia. Gut says he isn't.
I propose we don't lynch Richard Today. Let him protect someone, anyone, it does not matter who but obviously we shall judge his choice Tomorrow. It would simply be bad town play if we lynch a potential town killing role.

[Charlie]

You will be given that chance. I reiterate: It would be bad to lynch a claimed PR with vig powers.

[Charlie]

Magua, I believe you're attempting to read me through a mix of playstyle analysis and content analysis. No trouble with content analysis, but the playstyle reads are unreliable. You say I don't back up my cases. Is that a good indicator to tell someone's alignment? Town can follow who they believe to be town as well. (If you want a reference, go check L4D Mafia.)

I'll mention here and now that KMD closely resembles someone from that previously completed game, I'm going along the idea that this is what is happening now. He ended up being town and based on this I'm comfortable labelling KMD town as well. If the method works, use it again.

IIRC, you posted a case against me out of the blue and now you followed it up. Not much to say about that specifically. I do however disagree with you on choosing the "kill" for Richard. Too much WIFOM. We let him decide on it, we insist he claim his action. By saying "oh you must protect millar13 tonight" we open up a can of worms like: oh, mafia will know this therefore they try to kill millar13 and he does not die but wait maybe that is what they want me to think or maybe that is what they want me to think so..."

Conclusion: Don't lynch Richard, let him take a NA and claim it. Decide weather to lynch him or not Tomorrow.

Gotta rechack Animorph.

[Charlie]

Charlie, who do I closely resemble out of curiosity?

Furry.

If you make a case without backing it up, how have you helped town?
Do you feel motivated to help town?

I can and have done so. However, I see others have better case-making skills than I and I choose to trust them and follow suit. Does this not also help town?

My feelings on you are pretty much the same as my feelings on millar; if it weren't for his BP claim, I'd be all about lynching him as well. But, there is the BP claim, which is why I am all for him getting vigged.

Do you know that in the typical case scenario is that when a BP dies (either by lynching or NK) we usually lose a whole Day?

He acted that way in one game and was town, so he must be town in this game?

Yes. This is my opinion (replace "must" with "likely").

No, wait. Are you saying he's acting like *someone else* who was town in that game, and so he must be town in this game?

This reads like straight up buddying.

My first reaction is like "no way!"
After some thought, I'll admit: yes in a way it is like buddying. I remember I once said something like this and I'll just say it again: town members have to trust somebody to get somewhere. I trust KMD.

tl;dr: Pre-selection has pros (more accountability, less leeway if Richard is scum). The only valid con is that scum could nightkill the target themselves...but I'm ok with that, because then they're not nightkilling someone useful.

No, look at that: is a bunch of WIFOM and we're going deeper into WIFOM territory. After reading the above I find myself with a headache.

[Charlie]

What, I can't apply past experience here? Even if a method is risky and unreliable, I can't go ahead and do it anyway? I do what I must because I can.

[Charlie]

I want a wagon. I'm not agreeable to an Amished wagon at this time.

UNVOTE: raider8169
VOTE: Chronopie

This also has the convenient effect of giving a new replacement a chance to have one less vote on him/her upon entering.

[Charlie]

Hey Xite:

Considering the BLARING contradiction? You don't want people to use the same type of method to lynch you? It just doesn't make sense to me.

Does that make me mafia in your eyes?

WHY AREN'T WE LYNCHING HIM YET???

Boo, Charlie.

Join the EGL wagon and be smart like Jahudo...

Okay.

UNVOTE: Chronopie
VOTE: EGL
Oh look my votes are going down sequentially in my FoS list (in my iso 51).

[Charlie]

Geez toothless, you make it sound as though I'm the bad guy. I would like to earn some trust of you but meh.

[Charlie]

@Pitbunny: That tends to happen when I post more. So... why don't I deserve your FoS/vote? Do you doubt what you say?

[Charlie]

I'm feeling the Rich wagon. Need to look at the EGL one more in depth.

Do tell me why you feel it. Coz I don't.

[Charlie]

Did I say that Xite91 is obvtown before? Yes I think I did. Add SSBF to probtown. The megaposts by these two jokers remind me of town mudslinging.

We need to come to a consensus on who to lynch. Coz I really smell a no-lynch around the corner.

[Charlie]

Was it you, oh yes it was you! You and Crimmy.

[Charlie]

Yeah it looks the same as town attacking town. Is this a fallacy?

[Charlie]

Look at the latest votecount.
grumblegrumblegrumblenolynch
But thankfully for Rule 5:

[05] DEADLINE LYNCH RULES: As the At deadline, a person will be lynched if they have a majority of voters voting for them. That means you can be lynched with just one vote if only one person is voting. If no one has a majority of the votes cast, it is a no-lynch.

I still don't think Richard is the correct lynch Today. From the teachings of other MS players, lynching a claimed vig+ is a bad idea. Better to leave him be free to take a NA action and claim it. I'm not gonna vote him Today.

kmd4390, I simply won't go against my gut-read on Amished now and am reluctant to join a bandwagon at this budding stage.

I could go along with a Chronopie lynch but realistically I think he isn't going to get wagon-to-lynch quickly unless both kmd and toothless vote him.

I'm more confidant that SSBF is town now.

Move your votes to EGL, people. I want a lynch!

[Charlie]

I call this out based on what I've seen before: in my first newbie game (yes I was scum) there were 2 people constantly arguing against each other till no end (hence mudslingling). The fact was both were town and not listening to each other...the final outcome wasn't so bad when consensus was reached.

I think the fundamental basis of this thinking is that town members will voice out their opinions as much as they want without fear of being called out for it.

[Charlie]

Okay.

[Charlie]

EGL goes. Xite91, I'll honor your request later. I appear to have acute laziness in this game..it will soon pass.

[Charlie]

Are you part of the town?
If you are, this is a highly stupid post and should be burned.
If not, then you should be lynched

The above is a useless comment.

[Charlie]

His neglect to help the town is useless. that was the point

This is a good point. I like conciseness. Anyway, if I have time I'll go through reading you and SSBF in ISO later today. If not or if I can't finish in time... well, too bad!

[Charlie]

Oh drat! I totally forgot to come back to read ISOs. It is too late now. I spent my time doing something else. I won't get those analysis up in time before the deadline unfortunately. It shall have to be done Tomorrow.

Richard should use his ability tonight. Everyone ok with that level of directing?

Are you dictating things?

[Charlie]

Well, Xite91 seems hellbent on lynching SSBF Today.

[Charlie]

Plum, that was really strange posting at the end bit.

[Charlie]

Xite91!

I've read SSBF in ISO as you asked. I conclude he is townish and on a scale of 1 - 10 with total towness being 10 and total not towness being 1, he falls on a 7. That's a pass! So it seems that my opinion is still the same that both you and SSBF are town just saying stuff about each other.

On a more important note. Did anyone notice how seemingly pro-town Jahudo looks? Like very seemingly town, until the point he posted things in #1348? Isn't THAT the only post that does not make him pro-town, but rather anti-town? Can we lynch him for that single post?

[Charlie]

Well Jahudo, this new avatar is probably also a red panda, but with less contrast among other things. It is not distracting anymore! I think this is a breakthrough.

[Charlie]

@Locke Lamora: Well I'm not voting for myself, thank you very much.

@Xite91: Honestly, I begin to doubt Richard's claim now. I get the feeling that he is pulling some strings.
Kmd...no change, simply because his posting style appears to be minimalistic. I'll look at this again.
Amished..seems okay so far, but posted less that normal. Heck, a lot of people are posting less than normal.
Who's scum? Based on one single post, Jahudo suddenly stands out. Please do read his post again and see if you can find anything in it.

@MichelSableheart: Goodposting. I get the feeling that I've played with you before, and yes I believe I did! You are doing the same things now as back in that old newbie game.

Regarding the tracker claim: Yes, that was a bit harsh.. but hey I believe we were on a deadline back then.

[Charlie]

How would he be pulling strings? Give me a few scenarios?

Well thanks for your opinion on them but those were just examples. You are working much harder with this game so I won't get all mad at you or anything, but other than Jahudo, who's scum?

I'll work on that! I'm not backing down on this statement, but I'll do the readup at a later time.

Okay charlie, what is scummy in this post, because I can't find it.

Compare this post to his others. It is all different and stuff (Oh gosh please don't make it be the red panda messing with my mind...I was pretty confidant of this fact!).

[Charlie]

That's it! I have to say this because I cannot take it anymore:

MichelSableheart is acting too much like town; he is practically bleeding town posts. I've seen something similar to this before in a long completed newbie game. At that time, it was Nachomamma8 who was making these posts (he was IC too) and practically everyone agreed that he was town. He didn't make it past N1. So...

Anybody who votes for MichelSableheart henceforth gets a free FoS from me.

[Charlie]

Yes?

[Charlie]

Let me put it this way: If a player play like town and everyone agrees with it, there is a good chance it is true and this is applicable to other games. It is experience based, not meta based.

[Charlie]

Vote: Charlie

Scum buddying up to town.

There's just too much buddying going on in that Charlie post to ignore. I don't see the pro-town motive for sticking massive TOWNIE signs over Michel's head.

Vote: Charlie

Still thinking about Richard and Ythan.

Mod: V/LA from Saturday for a week.

You people see it too? (That he is town)
If yes then I guess that is a good thing!

[Charlie]

Hang on, have I said that I am very doubtful of RichardGHP's towness and am more inclined to believe Ythan over him? No? Ugh. I hope this does not put a dent in my credibility. I guess I should have mentioned it earlier so I can reference it at a later date comfortably.

Really I believe that Ythan was roleblocked and Richard allowed to make the kill. This fits with everything and makes them both town. But nothing is certain and I really need to park my vote snugly to someone else I get called out for it.

VOTE: RichardGHP

Anyway I'm just going to make a general comment that may or may not be helpful. It also may or may not be suspicious.
@Everyone: you can update your last will at anytime! Don't pass up this valuable opportunity to make a difference.

[Charlie]

Absolutely. In fact, now that you pointed it out I realized that it could be viewed as that. Now I can attempt to make an analogy involving water and wetness, but it will probably turn out lame and therefore I won't. Do you like cats?

[Charlie]

EBWOP: Wait, don't answer that last question. That was a mistake, it was meant for somewhere else but isn't relevant anymore anyway.

[Charlie]

Okay! Sheesh.

Just tell me who I should vote. I may just decide to blatantly follow you (unless you think it is me who is mafia).

[Charlie]

Yeah I did and now I'm changing it. Besides, he is alive Today, claimed to have protected millar13 and such.

[Charlie]

Xite! Yes it was directed at your questions.
No I did not change my mind within minutes. When Day 2 started, I reset my suspicion on Richard (back to neutral). After people say stuff, I see the logic behind it and they may be correct: Richard was lying all these while. As the day progresses, this didn't change much but I didn't voice it out sooner. In retrospect I guess I should have, but this is turning out to be quite okay. Lynchlynchlynch!

[Charlie]

Oh hi. I'm popping in to point out something: The first Last Will Mafia had multiple mafia groups. Large Theme games in general have multiple mafia groups (at least in my experience, I could be wrong here: correct me if I am). Therefore, it is reasonable to assume that this game have multiple mafia groups. That is all.

P/S: I was really mistaken when I made that cat comment, please ignore it.

[Charlie]

There is something screwy going on here with the lack of NKs, MichelSableheart. Allow me to speculate a bit and provide some Information Instead of Analysis:

Theme games are different. They sometimes have screwy mechanics which are fun to twiddle with. For example, one old one had the mafia team(s) having no NKs for the first 2 nights. Maybe something similar is happening here.

Or, there could be just one large mafia group

Whatever the case, I want to sheep your vote if you don't mind.

[Charlie]

Huh? He vpte SSBF? I can't sheep that, I'm not a mindless drone you know. I'll think for myself too. And SSBF, along with Xite91, I thought was town. Still do.

He did FoS Richard though. That's good enough for me!

[Charlie]

Not as strong as MichelSablehart and yourself, kmd4390.

[Charlie]

Actually, I have something I wanted to say which has aleardy been covered by MichelSableheart in #1526. It is true that Nachomamma8 is playing subpar. I already said earlier that my past experience with him he was very pro-town to the point of being ridiculous. He isn't the same here. This can only mean 2 things.

[Charlie]

Upon closer inspection of the thread, I have to comment about this:

To come back to an old argument of yours: I'm not that sure that a scum roleblocker would have been on Twomz night 1. Twomz inventor claim came in the middle of a number of fakeclaims, and wasn't referenced at all till day 2. When reading day 1, I forgot about it, only remembering when Twomz asked Ythan why he hadn't killed anyone. I wouldn't be surprised if scum had forgotten about that claim too.

This is a poor assumption to make.

[Charlie]

It seems that my lynch is virtually inevitable at this point; if you could afford me a few extra hours to rearrange my will, I would be most grateful.

Yeah that's a reasonable request. Have an unvote.
UNVOTE: RichardGHP

[Charlie]

SSBF, that isn't a good question to answer.

[Charlie]

Hey, I unvoted to give Richard that breathing space he needs! And let me rethink my suspects.

[Charlie]

RichardGHP it is.
VOTE: RichardGHP
L-1.

Now tell me, are you really a CPR doc?

[Charlie]

esuriospiritus, tell me more about your avatar. Also, how can you not be up to date?

[Charlie]

Hold your horses. 2 days is plenty.

[Charlie]

Dang it! I like another day.

[Charlie]

Nonsense. Anyway there is nothing important, it is just I'd like another day.

I don't care, I'm going to unvote anyway.
UNVOTE: RichardGHP

[Charlie]

Good morning.

[Charlie]

Well I think he is confirmed town. At the very least, he was responsible for the death of millar13. Let's see now... who to vote...
How about Nachomamma8?

I encourage people to start a wagon now!
VOTE: Nachomamma8

[Charlie]

Nacho, who else besides Xite?

[Charlie]

I'm sorry kmd. I'm sleep deprived, I can't think clearly at the moment.

[Charlie]

Erm ok. From memory, I think Kmd is town at the very least. Mafia is probably Nacho. Of this I'm willing to bet 1 lunch.
Not quite the answer but let me think about it ok?

[Charlie]

Time to give proper answers. Reference: my own iso #94 and 85.

Two Town reads:

MichelSablehart

, kmd4390, Xite91,

SSBF

Two Scum reads: Nachomamma8, Plum

Look, I'd recommend you people to go back and read MichelSablehart in iso. All of them (Iso #4 caught my eye). He had a lot of good thing in his posts and I'm willing to go as far as to say that he was Nk-ed for his pro-town contrubitions, not because he was a suspected PR. He's right when he said this town is bumming too much.

His suspects iso #4: SSBF, esuriospiritus replacing Magua, Kmd4390, Charlie
His first impression suspects, iso #0: Battousai replacing Pittbunny,

RichardGHP

, Super Smash Bros. Fan and Charlie

Based on this, I can sheep his suspicion on SSBF, esuriospiritus and Battousai. I bet 1 dinner that there is at least one mafioso in these three jokers.

-----------

Based on the recent posts, I can see how Ythan is still a suspect because he may be mafia aligned but given an extra shot by means of the inventor. But I do not think that is the case.

Xite91, you said Nacho is town. How sure are you of this?

I can read Jahudo's #1662 without feeling distracted! I think the diffrent picture of the red panda helped. Unfortunately I didn't really like the way that post was constructed (as compared to...)

... esuriospiritus's #1663. This feels like a real catch-up post with no strings attatched. Content heavy (which is good) too.

Suspects: Ythan, Super Smash Bros. Fan, animorpherv1
I'll look at these 3 again.

-----------

Finalized suspects list: Nachomamma8, Plum, animorpherv1, SSBF, esuriospiritus, Battousai

[Charlie]

Yay!

[Charlie]

Oh dear. I have been prodded. That doesn't usually happen, but it just did!

My thoughts on people:

01 Amished - neutral
02 rhinox -town
03 nachomamma8 - mafia
04 Ythan - town
05 Plum - mafia
06 Super Smash Bros. Fan - neutral
08 chronopie - neutral
09 Jahudo - town
10 Battousai - town
16 Xite91 - neutral
17 esuriospiritus - town
18 Locke Lamora - neutral
19 kmd4390 - town
20 animorpherv1 - neutral
22 holycon - town

That's a really simplified version, but yep I'll be voting based on this for now.

[Charlie]

So you don't have a scum read on anyone?

Excuse me?

[Charlie]

67) Another case on an already really suspected player. Wheeeeeeee

That's no emoticon...

[Charlie]

I totally agree with Ythan this time.

[Charlie]

Ythan, why do you consider yourself obvtown?

Unvote, vote Ythan x2

to make a statement.

-------------

Rhinox is scum with Ythan. Seriously, if I was scum who had aone-shot kill that everyone knew about, I'd sure as hell use it the same way I would as town. Hell, I may even consider shooting a buddy to confirm myself depending on the specific situation in the game.

Ahem. If this were true than mafia control at least 6 out of 12 votes in addition to those held by their other members needed to win the game. I would be ashamed if this were true. Anyway, I'm going to sheep MichelSablehart in his Last Will vote given to Rhinox so I'm going to go with Rhinox-town.

[Charlie]

Unvote, Vote: Ythan

Actively not scumhunting and relying on the fact that he killed millar so he can coast by and not play. My vote is not moving from Ythan today.

I agree with Battousai on this one. Although I have a good town read on Ythan, I'm really hoping that I'm wrong about this.

UNVOTE: Nachomamma8
VOTE: Ythan

Oh, this does not change the fact that I firmly believe that Plum and Nachomamma8 are mafia. Moar votes on these two jokers please!

Someone with 4 votes refusing to contribute any more than what's required to not get replaced makes my head hurt.

I'm going to go back to:

Vote: Charlie

I still really don't see the pro-town motivation for shouting 'hi scum, kill Michel, he's really pro-town!' Any analysis he appears to have done recently seems to be almost entirely based on Michel's viewpoints, not his own.

This is nonsense. So much so that it is somewhat (mildly) sickening.

[Charlie]

I know right? It does not look good and probably isn't good too. But I feel this is the right thing to do. I hope I'm wrong about my town-read on you!

[Charlie]

HoS Charlie x4

In your next game try to get scum lynched, not suspected townies.

Oh, so there is an inkling that you think you'll get lynched after all. Frankly I think I'm pushing an uphill battle here.

If you firmly believe that Plum and Nachomamma8 are scum and are clamoring for more votes on them, you should be voting for one of those two. Not voting for either makes no sense to me.

Actually, you are absolutely right with this and that vote was based off emotion rather than solid thinking. However, from past experience logic does not always work. Never you mind, I'll keep my vote on Ythan just because useless townies (town-read, actually) can become more useful when poked with votes (hopefully, at least).

[Charlie]

Tybalt, I remember you being very chatty and "useful" in my limited experience with you. You are not the same here. This usually only means one of two things. Furthermore, it seems that I'm your prime suspect already for this:

If Plum is scum as raider's replacement then at least she has been attacking players I like even less (in a town versus scum way) since she got here. VI replaced by innocent or heavy busser. I'd prefer a not Plum lynch today. That means Chuck/Fan/Xite at the moment.

I am slightly disturbed by this.

To address your response here:

"try to get scum lynched"

"try to get"

"try"

That isn't an inkling of shit. And if you're going to throw around the word useless then take a look at your own play.

I carefully worded my post to try to avoid a reply like this. Looks like I failed in that aspect. Oh well, its okay. I'll just to try a little perspective next time. Oh yeah, also, pot kettle black and whatnot.

[Charlie]

Charlie, what's nonsense? That you declared Michel to be super pro-town, or that you've been using his analysis and scumreads in the absence of any of your own?

Excuse me? Common knowledge, isn't it? Noted on the using his analysis part. I've actually done this sort of thing before with pretty okay results.

We need more Ythan votes.

Hopefully...but seriously, MOAR votes on Nacho and Plum.

[Charlie]

Really? Argh; sorry, but I disagree.

[Charlie]

My point is that is was obvious. This a thing that need not be said and can be (should be) picked up by everyone. So, if I mention in it will come to no surprise, but I can't say I'll sheep his votes without saying it first as it would make little sense!

[Charlie]

No, I'm up to date. You're ho ho hum like and I understand this. We do what we must because we can.

[Charlie]

Serious: You're right, I really should do a proper read up. The problem is, mafia games are at times urgent, but not important.
Not so serious: I wans't really expecting that answer, but well done! (I guess?)

[Charlie]

Okay, let's try to get some serious stuff done here now. First, I'll answer questions then I'll chip in with something that has been on my mind lately.

Charlie, what is your opinion of Locke?

He doesn't seem to have a wide suspect list, and he's been on my case for quite a while IIRC. I'm not very sure what to make of it, but I'm confident that there are better people to than Locke.

Based on feel, here's everyone:
Ythan - town
Batt - town
xite - town
kmd - town
charlie - idk
locke - idk
Jahudo - town
esurio - town
plum - idk
Amished - town/idk
nacho - idk/scum
SSBF - scum
chrono - idk/scum
holy - idk/scum
ani - scum

Goody, a simple list! Not too bad actually, they have good matches with my own and kmd's. I hope that we can come to a consensus easier with discussion.

The obvtown

Charlie - Everything he has done is so town it's scary. I probably won't vote him at all in this game
Plum - Raider's wagon earlier made him town or something. Can't remember specifics but I remember deciding that him and CSL were town.
holycon - Pinged a town tell early. I don't remember what, but I remember it was strong.

Regarding Plum: I think I need to hear those specifics, coz I'm getting a mafia read from Plum...
Regarding holycon: I kind of agree, but would not say holycon is

obviously

town. I'm leaning probtown for the stuff he said early on sounding like good intentions, only poorly worded some parts. It was non-specific but enough to get by a town read.

The ones who I don't feel comfortable calling town

Amished - I remember even the quickest glance at vote counts had me screaming scum.
Xite91 - The second most frustrating living player in this game.
Locke - Pinged my scumdar for something that it doesn't benefit the town to share.
animorpherv1 - Not only the "wait, he's in this game?" player, but quick glances at vote counts don't look good. Wouldn't stand in the way of his lynch at all.

Good posting...had me thinking a bit.

The ones with multiple votes

Rhinox - I haven't been agreeing with a lot of what he says. Hard to say exactly what that means.
Super Smash Bros. Fan - My opinion of him has been going Town->Scum throughout the game. Not my top suspect, but shouldn't have all the votes he does.
Ythan - This scum needs to die ASAP so we can get those votes back into town's hands. Hell, even if I'm wrong and he's town, let's get the votes to someone useful.

Yeah, this is where the unique aspect of the game comes in... I feel that mafia members will try to buddy up those with multiple votes if they are indeed town. I feel it is worth looking into this.
Regarding Ythan: A well warranted emotional response. 'nuff said.

Charlie ... I need to look over again cause I have a hard time reading people like him. I think the most damning point against him in my eyes is that while scummy, he hasn't really gotten close to a lynch. Somebody like that typically gets lynched as town so it's possible that scum are deflecting away from their scumbuddy. Ok, these last 5 pages make me want to shoot Charlie.

Can you condense this into a shorter sentence? What are you trying to say, exactly?

@Xite: learn to be more concise. You're turning into Mastin, and that's not a good thing.

This is funny because of what I just said in my last sentence.

Whatever. Let's just find out who this guy is already. I hope to be proven wrong.

Hey! I'm already doing that "hope to be proven wrong" thing. Get your own reason (I'm joking btw).
Interestingly, I think the red panda is getting more and more town looking but am not sure why... This can't be good.

-----------

Content generation from these people are excellent and should be referred back again:
Kmd4390 (everything)
Battousai (vote count spreadsheet)
esuriospiritus (breakdown analysis of wagons)
Rhinox (said that there is a lot of useless thing happening and this rings true; goodposting)
Jahudo (red panda)

So I'm not in favour of lynching any of the above Today...

Let's look at the shady individuals:
Nachomamma8 (Not doing town stuff, based off past game)
Ythan (Probably town, but still a good lynch. Yes.)
Plum (General shadiness)
Super Smash Bros. Fan (My own read is null, I can sheep others on this one)
animorpherv1 (Lurking IS a scumtell. No qualms lynching a lurker)

Gonna separate my post here for neatness.

[Charlie]

Um, Kmd4390 is right about Xite91 behaving suspiciously. Her posting of late is way to defensive for my liking. Sounds like she has got something to hide. Quite a good lynch actually.

Let's make use of that spreadsheet:
1) Nacho slot and Plum slot never once voted on the same person. Can be attributed to early distancing.
2) Xite91's voting style is anomalous. Problem is, she's not the only one...

And that's basically all I can use because:

1) There is too much shenanigans going on what with the dictating of things to make proper use of this data.
2) The data is incomplete. D1 data isn't enough.

-----------

Combining suspect lists of the following people: Kmd4390, Rhinox, Battousai, esuriospiritus and MichelSablehart:

Kmd ISO #113: Xite and Animorph, Rhinox and Batt, Ythan, Smash Bras, Locke.
Rhinox ISO #72: nacho - idk/scum, SSBF - scum, chrono - idk/scum, holy - idk/scum, ani - scum
Battousai ISO #41, #43: Ythan and SSBF. Jahudo, chrono, magua, Locke, and ani.
esuriospiritus has 3 separate sets for different reasons, ISO #15:

[animorpherv1, chronopie, Jahudo, Locke Lamora, Nachomamma8, SSBF, Ythan]
[Ythan, SSBF, Amished, Charlie, kmd4390, holycon, animorpherv1, Battousai]
[Amished, animorpherv1, Locke Lamora, Chronopie, Plum, Xite91]

MichelSablehart's suspect list, ISO #4: Super Smash Bros. Fan, Xite, Ythan, (esuriospiritus) Magua, kmd, Charlie

I conclude that SSBF and animorpherv1 are the most likely lynch today. Between these two, I'd rather much lynch the lurkish animorpherv1.

A side note: Look at Battousai's ISO #44 and see how much it contradicts the earlier ISO #41. That's a bit strange.

[Charlie]

1) Because now I'm being attacked? Based on 1) Me as a person (since kmd knows me IRL) and 2) A votecount analysis that is ridiculously biased.
2) So why bring only me up about it?

1) I'm sorry, but the way you're defending yourself looks like you've got something to hide. And I think that's the fact that you're mafia.
2) Point taken.

@Charlie- If you have 2 or so hours to kill, you try making another voting spreadsheet for D2/D3. It's not fun. It's probably easier to make when you add onto it as the day goes on. What did you mean by the dictating of things? Also, your post about my iso 41 and 43. Take a stance on it. Tell me if you think it is scummy or tell me if it is townie. Tell me if it would most likely come from scum than town. Give me something other than "That's a bit strange."

1) Mafia then sure looks a lot like work!

2) Aha, you were not around during that dictating of thing shenanigans... It is this:

Some text

You don't get to dictate these things, you know.

unvote

Vote: Some person

Thing got repeated a number of times till it got old (yeah sure it was funny the first few times). Due to the unvote and vote, I deem D1 votecount analysis to be less useful because the reason behind the vote was a joke.

3) Take a stance...hmmm... problem is, I was hoping that other people could analyse that bit because I'm unsure of what to make of it. It could be that you're mafia and made a mistake (you're caught!) or in a wider context, you're any alignment using words loosely. But if I really really had to choose, I'll go with you're mafia.

My vote count spreadsheet was not content, it was information. Rhinox's one post should not be enough to give him a pass for the day, especially when it is a comment that a lot of useless things are happening. I don't know what you mean by red panda.

1) You present good information then.
2) Hm. You make a good point but I'm entitled to think for myself on this one.
3) Yeah, that red panda... look back on what I said about it in ISO. That comment was a tad bit random, so I'm sorry if you're confused.

No. If you have a town read, enough so that you can call him probable town, you should not lynch him. If you did and you were in lylo, it will lessen your chances of getting a correct lynch. I would because I have a null read on him, but his anti-town play is what pushed my vote.

Yeah, but this isn't lylo yet (at least I hope not). Also, check out the mafia win condition: they have to control majority of votes, not players in this game.

I am failing miserably at keeping up with that game. Charlie, would you like to hold on to my vote for now?

I'm flattered, but proxy voting is a bad idea. Moreso, you're one of my prime suspects!

Besides the obvious problems with Charlie calling me a good mislynch there is the problem of his reasoning. Since I've started posting.

No, you!

[Charlie]

Tybalt, I'm not Chuck. And "No, you" is a perfect response to you. And, I'm not pushing for your lynch, I'm pushing for Nacho's and Plum's. It just so happens that my vote is on you. Are you paying attention to my words, or just my vote?

[Charlie]

Tybalt, I did read. And I wish so would you because (for the third time I'm saying) I'm NOT pushing for your lynch. You should have nothing to worry from me (aside from my vote, of course). We can both enjoy the game.

[Charlie]

What is it that you want from me?

[Charlie]

Okay, Xite you've made your point. However you don't really have to worry about getting any flak from me because you're a semi-sheeped suspect and I know that sheeping all the time isn't a good thing. Already I'm going along that SSBF is mafia based on sheeping a few people I feel are town; if I were to sheep that you're mafia as well would be ridiculous because I simply don't see you and SSBF both being mafia. No; let me reiterate: It's ridiculous!

Understand from my post that I'm much more in favour of an SSBF lynch over yours. In this sense I'm agreeing with you on your prime suspect, SSBF which you've been bickering on for so long. Due to this I feel you overly zealous defence of yourself is unwarranted.

@Charlie: Voting for somebody you don't suspect? How is that useful? Make content or die, bickering with Ythan giving him a chance to continue being "active" without saying anything is less than productive.

Make content, make content, make content. Is that all you want from me? I'm not the best content-maker; this I know and accept. Many times I've been told that I've put my foot in my mouth and many times I've gotten lynched (as either alignment, really). Can't you just accept that I fair better when I'm at the sidelines, saying stuff? For the record, Amished, I'm doing the exact same thing here as I did in L4D Mafia. You of all people should understand this, but nope. Your unyielding attitude is not impressive, IMHO.

[Charlie]

I do not want to talk to you at this point. You make bunny cry.

[Charlie]

You guys are hillarious. I wouldn't mind an amished wagon, but LOL. I can't believe that many people posted without looking at the context. This is so amusing.

Kmd either get involved or shut the fuck up because that's less than useless.

He clearly was referencing another game where he was scum. Just thought the whole thing was amusing.

Point taken, I should read better. However, Plum's defense did, not mentioning that obvious flaw, is still just as suspect, and that casts suspicion on him as well as her defendee.

That was way more amusing that it should have been!

However you don't really have to worry about getting any flak from me because you're a semi-sheeped suspect and I know that sheeping all the time isn't a good thing.

This sentence rubs me the wrong way. I can't really put my finger on why, exactly, other than it seems like he's too preoccupied with what other people think of him. I may be reading a Charlie iso soon.

Hah! The total opposite is true: I don't care what other people think of myself, but I care what other people think of other people. Ergo, I put my trust in my town reads and process their input like I did in the past analysis (which at times may seem more like information instead of analysis, but is still useful). Go ahead and iso if you like but I'm not interested in your opinions on me.

If I was one of your top suspects, then why wouldn't you jump at the chance to take my vote away from me? Wouldn't you rather a town player be in control of my vote than a scum one?

I guess so, but in the event that I decide to vote you, and your proxy vote will then be "used" on you, that would be considered self-voting. That's bad no matter what your alignment is; I'm not keen on being "responsible" for such things.

[Charlie]

Yah, claim time and don't forget to make your Last Will modifications if necessary. I'm willing to cast the lynching vote.
Everyone, animorpherv1 is still a better choice IMHO. Rhinox, I'd rather you did not switch your vote but it's your call. It's roughly 24 hours to deadline now.
Time to unvote this "obvtown" player:
UNVOTE: Ythan

[Charlie]

VOTE: animorpherv1

[Charlie]

People! By my count it is about 12 hours to deadline and we're about to lynch a player who holds 3 votes. Until he says that he is comfortable with his Last Will, I remain uncomfortable about his lynch. Hence, animorpherv1 the lurker/player about to be replaced is a better lynch in my books.

Preview edit: Yes, I think so too. I'll try to be around near deadline, but things can get persnickety.

[Charlie]

Hm, I can see where your priorities are, Kmd

[Charlie]

Ythan should get in here and hammer one.

[Charlie]

EBWOP: Whoops, he's part of the SSBF wagon, my bad.

[Charlie]

This is quite disadvantageous.

[Charlie]

I think you're right, Jahudo. I second that request.

[Charlie]

Meh, deadline is in 8 hours. My vote stays on animorpherv1 and it's not going to move for at least 8 hours.

[Charlie]

OH Come on!!!

[Charlie]

So sad, so very very sad.

[Charlie]

What SSBF said there reminded me that my original reads on both himself and Xite91 are both town.

[Charlie]

Welcome fishythefish! I have no idea who you are but I know that you are mafia aligned; I don't think you can convince me otherwise but feel free to take a crack at convincing other people who are still alive. Thanks for replacing in and I hope you've enjoyed some good night-talk with your scumbuddies during your short stay here.

VOTE: fishythefish

[Charlie]

I seriously cannot wait for the awesome claim fishythefish is going to come up with!

[Charlie]

No! I refuse to explain myself to mafia. You can still talk to the others here; but you can't convince me to switch my vote off you or give you explanations.

[Charlie]

Jahudo, that red panda is cute.

Rhinox, that scum list looks good. Nacho is certainly a good choice, but none can be better than a fishing fish.

Battousai, what the heck are you doing?

[Charlie]

Ho ho hum.

I'm going to sit pretty until we get a wagon on Fishy. More votes please!

[Charlie]

Come on, put your votes where your mouth is.

[Charlie]

Ythan has just crossed my arbitrary decency line. And I'd like to think that I've set the bar quite high.

Anyway, I've read somewhere that you're a punk whose self-inflated ego has been beaten down by your failures here on site. So yeah, I'm done interacting with this individual.

More Fishy votes please!

[Charlie]

Plum is a good lynch, and I mean VERY good lynch.
Nacho is also a good lynch, but not as good as a PLUM lynch.
Ythan is prob-twon BUT still a good lynch. I've heard someone once said "I always lynch scum -- it's just that sometimes they aren't mafia".
Battousai is... IDK really.
Chronopie is NULL. So null he's smack dab in the middle of my Last Will list.
DESPITE all this, FISHY is still mafia.
YOU can save him time and lynch him, then he does not need to read the thread and catch-up.
More votes on Fishy PLEASE!

[Charlie]

I like that NK analysis, for its different approach to try to find the mafia. So does this change your previous town-read on me, Kmd4390? Before you answer, you'd best finish up the important stuff and the rest of your analysis first. I'm thinking Locke is mafia too at this point (he's not reading -- I can tell), but I can only lynch so many mafia a day,

[Charlie]

Can we lynch Fishy? I'm serious. This is important.

[Charlie]

A good reason NOT to lynch the person I'm ignoring is that he is probably town. A good reason to is just about anything and everything else he's been posting.

Still, I like that you've noticed that I'm pushing for a Fishy lynch. There might be a REASON that I'm doing so but seriously what do you expect me to say?

[Charlie]

I think... that Jahudo is town. We need to lynch Fishy today.

[Charlie]

Anyone know what species of fish that is?

[Charlie]

Oh..Interesting! Thanks for that link, Jahudo.

On a somewhat relevant subject, I've been reading things online about manners, decency and unwarranted self importance. I find myself to be quite amused by some of the things written there.

Can we lynch the robotic fish?

[Charlie]

Yeah, If Plum is mafia then I think kmd is more proven town.
If Plum is town then... well not really much influence.

[Charlie]

Um... I don't know what to say except that I really want a Fishy lynch. But I noticed that Jahudo has a new avatar, nice.

[Charlie]

Do'h. Missed this one:

Charlie: plum flipping scum would mean that Kmd is more town? That makes no sense. Plum, who Kmd has called town so much that he excuses (don't know what it is called off of the top of my head: because of this would happen, then these people would look scummy) that if Plum flips scum, Kmd's adamant stance on her being town makes him more townie?

You're right, I guess. It is just that I've always thought of kmd as town, its hard to put myself in the mindset that he is mafia. I could work on that, but there are plenty of other Fish in the ocean to be lynched.

[Charlie]

lynch fish kthx

[Charlie]

Hey peeps, I'd strongly recommend to all those who are town-aligned to go read a bit on Last Will Mafia I. Don't bother if you're mafia. I'll even provide you a link to it in case you're lazy to find it. HERE

The mafia were Egyptian and Swiss there. Now, they appear to be Columbian. Now you may not like setup speculation much, but I like it and will say this: Knowing that this is a sequel, I'd expect some similarities between this and that game; added with something new.
Fun fact 1: Fishy was in that game. He was Town Neighbour.
Fun fact 2: Nacho was in that game. He was Swiss Mafia Tracker.

... I need time to read that game. I'm having doubts about Fishy being mafia now.

@Charlie: Why was Chronopie so neutral for you?

He felt like passive player; staying in the sidelines. Kinda what I'm aiming for but that's beside the point.

[Charlie]

Nice red panda, Jahudo.

[Charlie]

Technically I'm ignoring you but whatever.

I'll need to read up on that game first before I can draw conclusions from those facts. I've put those up there because I feel strongly about those points; hopefully someone will pick up signs of those two jokers' alignment based on it. (I hate meta. It takes too much work and does not really pay off for me. Perhaps someone else may make use of it; I'll at least

try

to do it myself)

[Charlie]

Haha. "Floundered". Dropping eggs. It is funny coz you're a fish.

Um. Serious stuff. I shall read for a bit.

[Charlie]

Very busy at the moment. Colombo is the capital of Sri Lanka.

[Charlie]

I did an analysis of style and roughly estimate of frequency of Nacho's post in both this game and Last Will Mafia I. I see them as the same: No change. This makes me believe he is consistent. See, the thing is if he's town here and mafia there I'd expect them to change. Or maybe that's what he wants me to think. Oh wait maybe that's what he...

Caught myself in a WIFOM trap. Unable to make sense of anything.
Oh well. He must be mafia then. I'd vote him anytime!

-----------

Fishy is the same too, in both games. It is likely that he is town after all.

-----------

Not liking Charlie's turn around on Fish. From being so adamant yesterday for a lynch to doubting Fish being mafia, with the reasoning for the change being possibly meta from the first game? That's what I see.

Looking at the chronopie final lynch, holycon fits as a bussing partner, and I have no read on Locke or Rhinox. Doubting a connection between holycon and Locke unless they are distancing, so my main scumread on bussing is holycon. FoS: holycon.

@Batt: Considering that Fishy has claimed there is/was a doc ability in the game at some point, do you still reasonably believe that the best logical conclusion is scum did not kill? That's the only issue I have with your current attack on KMD, I find it less likely that scum nokilled versus they just got blocked somehow.

This is just filler. I'm sure of the this for the first and 3rd paragraphs.

[Charlie]

Hmm... Rhinox is town for his latest comments. Plum is... not sure. Probably mafia.

And a comment about the possibility of 2 mafia factions: IMHO likely; and odd and even Night groupkill makes the most sense. However, we'll have to find one member of the other group, then work our way to finding connections of 3. Otherwise, we're only looking at connections of 5 or 6.

[Charlie]

Fishy is town, Jahudo is town, Battousai is probtown, Rhinox is probtown. Plum is scum, and Charlie and Ythan are probscum, I'm willing to trust KMD about Holy if he's town but ignoring his mysterious town tell on her she's pretty scummy, and I'm on the fence about everyone else.

This game is going excruciatingly slowly. ._.

Well, I can agree with about half of this.

[Charlie]

Okay, Plum it is then. But Nacho is next.
VOTE: Plum

[Charlie]

Charlie, those are your reasons for voting, correct?

I was on Plum's slot's case pretty much since the start of the game. And I do believe I've provided some reasoning before this. So, no, the that single statement is not my "reasons for voting".

Speaking of voting.... MORE voting people! And less lurking.

And I don't like how the person holding the most votes is trying to dictate this sort of things, you know.

[Charlie]

Are red pandas fat or just fluffy?

[Charlie]

I suggest.

[Charlie]

I'm looking at the first post and seeing player numbers 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5 still alive. Randomn distrubution dictates that at least one of these people are mafia. Clustering may indicate more than one. This may sound random but, it is true! Trust me.

[Charlie]

Oh the heck with it.
UNVOTE: Plum
VOTE: Nachomamma8

[Charlie]

there is no clustering effect in picking a random mafiate (or two) from a list of players. This is all intuitively obvious, but it is also mathematically true.

Are you sure about this?
...
...
It doesn't matter. I like your Plum vote, and I say we move on.

[Charlie]

I missed out Jahudo's 1 line reply towards me. My response:

Thanks, that was actually quite entertaining in a cute kind of way. The problem is, I know you're distracting me and I know it is working.

[Charlie]

He did vote based on it. He used it as an excuse to jump off the plum wagon and onto Nacho (who's player number is right in the middle) along with his past call of nacho being scum for playing the same here as he was in LWM1.

I also agree with Ythan over his discussion with Charlie. Charlie called for plum's lynch today and nacho's tomorrow. Ythan only pointed out that charlie shouldn't call tomorrow's lynch (which is blantantly obvious as Charlie is very anti-town). Charlie then calls ythan out for dictating that charlie shoulding dictate and strawmans the point by implying that Ythan is trying to control the game since he has the most amount of votes.

And surprise, surprise, Kmd sides with Charlie. WTF? Kmd is not that bad of a player, people. He says he sheeps charlie more than charlie sheeps him recently. So, he is doing it again to reinforce the point. Again, Kmd is not this bad of a player to agree with Charlie. CHARLIE!

What is your main point? Either Plum or Nacho is (or is it "are"?) my choice of lynch, thus my vote. That's no excuse used by me.

[Charlie]

You're wrong. I'm just sitting pretty here. KMD... not much to say at the moment.

Your strong attack is noted. Now, who are you voting?

[Charlie]

I guess its good that we're discussing stuff and all, but without reaching a majority or consensus, (I mean >6 votes on someone) I'll point out right now that we'll never get a good lynch before deadline.

Looking at the latest votecount, I do not support a Battosuai lynch Today but I do support a Plum lynch. It is only natural that I:
UNVOTE: Nachomamma8
VOTE: Plum

[Charlie]

No, esuriospiritus is right.

[Charlie]

You are wrong and he is right.

[Charlie]

Put your votes on somebody.

[Charlie]

No way!

[Charlie]

[Charlie]

Hey peeps, we're about say... 12 hours, give or take a few hours till deadline. We must reach a majority before then.

[Charlie]

The last vote count showed a tie of 5 votes each on Plum and Batt. Because we're running out of time, I doubt Plum can claim or Ythan will ask Plum to claim in time.

One of you three jokers who aren't voting, vote now please.

[Charlie]

Plum has six votes, in fact, with the addition of Locke.

Well, if I have to choose between Batt and Plum, I think I have to

VOTE: plum

Yay! That's good and I have a good feeling about this.

[Charlie]

@Rhinox: Solid!

@Jahudo: Cute!

[Charlie]

This game is tedious and frustrating.

I think his about-turn on Fishy was brought about by the fact that he contributed too much to be an easy lurker-lynch like Ani was.

Not quite an about turn, and that was a mistake.

]I think he's been obstructive and unhelpful, particularly with his Fishy-tunnelling, and his continual red panda obsession is a prime example of how he's filling up a lot of his posts with useless content. His bickering with Ythan has provided much of that too.

I have nothing to offer but an apology for that, but does all this really warrant my lynch?

[Charlie]

I have somwthing to say about these:

I think his about-turn on Fishy was brought about by the fact that he contributed too much to be an easy lurker-lynch like Ani was. I think he's been obstructive and unhelpful, particularly with his Fishy-tunnelling, and his continual red panda obsession is a prime example of how he's filling up a lot of his posts with useless content. His bickering with Ythan has provided much of that too.

With the Fishy flip being town it throws all of Day Five into a bad light. He offered nothing that day with the exception of "lynch fishy thx", and somehow managed to coast by on that. He provided no reasoning for such and somehow is expecting to weasel his way out of such a strong opinion with no backing.

I was going to do a VC analysis but I think the vote changes weird it out a little.

These are actually good but circumstantial evidence against myself. It sounds convincing but it fall short because of the slow nature of the game and feels more like a half-hearted attempt to scum hunt. This can only mean one of two things:
1) Town aligned players not trying hard enough
2) Mafia aligned players taking an easy target

Yeah, I've been thinking about this and at first glance, if I were not me, I would be voting me (yes, WIFOM, I know). Let's face it. Town is doing badly so far. I'm actually thinking of reversing my votes in hopes that something good would come of this. On the other hand, I've been wrong about so many things thus far therefore I should be correct about one thing? (Nacho is the only person left among my original suspects, all of whom flipped town...)

It is frustrating. And about mass claim: I'm neutral about it, doing it is fine, not doing it is also fine. I'm voting anyway.

VOTE: Nachomamma8

Some questions in light of my change of thought:

Kmd4390, you've said that I'm town so far. You've not mentioned much doubt about it except in this post. Now, Locke and kunkstar7 have provided some reasons that I'm not town, what do you make of this? Could you do a reevaluation so that I can get better insight on your line of thinking?

Batt & esuriospiritus, a while ago you've both made some comments on a votecount analysis (the spreadsheet). Any conclusions you've drawn on that? I feel there could be some info we're missing there.

Jahudo, based on Fishy's death N6, is it reasonable to believe that you're semi-confirmed town because he very likely used his claimed invented 1-shot doc protect on you, left his votes on you, and also probably protected you Night 6?

And back to a pet peeve I've been having: We're assuming a single mafia team of 5-6 members, all tagged as Colombian Mafia. This I find strange, even if it is just flavour. I recently just realized that Colombia is a South American country. Last Will Mafia I had flavour with Swiss Mafia and Egyptian Mafia, both European countries. Now, it seems we're in South America. I dunno, even for flavour, it seems very strange to have just 1 mafia team. 2 would fit, and to explain the lack of double kills (except for the 1-shot vig claimed by Ytahn) each night, there is either mafia shenannigans, too-good-to-be-true Town blocking, or setup related mechanics (even/odd night kills) going on.

Why I think so: a mafia team of 6 players means that they already control half of half of the votes needed to win (yes, 6 out of the required 12) at the beginning of the game. Furthermore, we've been through 4 mislynches and 5 Night related deaths with votes passing onto different people. At one point, Chronopie received 2 votes. I... ain't feeling the setup with this, people.

... I speculate on the setup too much. But if I'm right, that means we're looking at connections the wrong way. We should try looking in groups of 3, maybe?

[Charlie]

Charlie- Why now of all the days, do you start playing, well... better?

Er, thanks I suppose.

Also, Egypt is an African nation, not European.

Oops! Geography fail.

I'll go back and look at that spreadsheet soon. Right now I'm at home using an outdated POS with even worse internet connection.

I'll do the same when I have maximum concentration and the time (hopefully my tomorrow).

[Charlie]

Emotional appeals aside, how can you justify accusing players who suspect you of being "Town aligned players not trying hard enough" when I think everyone will agree that if you are town, it doesn't appear as if you are trying very hard at all?

Because when I try harder to "be useful", I often end up "having my foot in my mouth" (I quote this from a trusted source). I feel that a less direct approach both improves my usefulness and survivability i.e. play by supporting strong town reads (but this does not mean sheeping their votes blindly).

Regarding Ythan, I agree his replacement would help with the game.

No, I don't agree with any of this.

Well, first let me say that I have no problem with suspecting that there might be 2 mafias, but in no way should that change our scum hunting at this point of the game, I don't think. Or rather, let me ask, how would assuming 2 groups of 3 mafias help us scumhunt better than assuming 1 mafia?

Secondly, you're assuming that there are 6 mafia members, but you argue that one team of 6 is too strong, so they must be broken into 2 teams. Why not 1 team of 5, or even fewer? my thinking is, with the will mechanic, lynching a scum does not necessarily remove a scum voting power, so a smaller single mafia team makes sense.

Thridly, no crosskills. Look at the night kills: Diacria, Twomz, MSH, xite, (jahudo), (jahudo) fishy. 4 out of the 6 were attempts on obvtown players. Scum aren't attempting to crosskill. Actually, xite was also obvtown IMO but not others.

So all the evidence other than a named mafia points to their only being 1 scum group.

1) Looking for 2 links of 3 (or a pair and a group of 3 to make 5) rather than a link of 5 or 6.
2) Good point. A Large theme with a small mafia group with few Town PRs is well within the realm of possibility. Added with the vote mechanic, I can see your POV.
3) I still say that this point is rather dangerous and there are a number of explanations put out there already.

Conclusion:

When its spelled with a U, it could mean any number of things.
I think the mod might have chosen Columbia to trick us into thinking about games that use countries for multiple mafias. But I'm wary using this as evidence for a single mafia because it feels like trying to outguess the mod. Still, I think a single mafia is likely based on NKs (and the rarity of even/odd night killers).

Ah hahaha, that's nice.

Jahudo: or it can be simply mod error that its a u instead of an o. A recent game of mine saw a player rage and quote a role PM because the mod mistakingly gave him the flavor name of john o'conner instead of john conner from terminator. Point is, a named mafia does not imply more than 1. 'specially when there is no evidence to suggest more than 1.

Can we get on with scum hunting rather than unhelpful speculation?

Oh. I don't like how you're brushing off the speculation...

Charlie, that was more wanting you to explain your stance on fish than anything else. Basically, I'm open to the chance that I am wrong.

Oh.

[Charlie]

Okay Rhinox, you win the argument. I see no point in saying more. Just these 2 bits:

In short, more time scumhunting and less time speculating over something that is currently meaningless. Or, turn your speculation into some practical scumhunting by showing me how youo're looking for "2 links of 3 (or a pair and a group of 3 to make 5) rather than a link of 5 or 6",

rather than planting an idea

meant to cause confusion and doubt within the town

.

Inception is a good movie!

Objection, that's not fair of you to say that

[Charlie]

I'm rather disappointed at the general lack of commitment from most people here, especially my townreads. I think we need something to trigger discussion.