Mini 1039 Lost: Season One (Over)

[jenniwren]

/confirm

[jenniwren]

Wow...I haven't been able to post because my computer is being repaired and I've only just gotten my dad away from his. This is a fun way to start the game.

I'm *almost* of two minds about the Ethan reveal--a tiny part of me wants to be a little skeptical because it's an awfully convenient reveal, but since Vezo is claiming something that is so easily proven true or false, I am MUCH more inclined to believe him to be telling the truth. It just doesn't make sense to lie about that.

Since he's at L-2 already, I'm holding my vote until we hear from Dekes. In the meantime, I do have one question for Vezo. I read the following post as meaning that you thought Ethan was the kid with the dog (Walt), and you revealed him to the town without waiting for him to claim because you thought that. You didn't vote earlier because you thought Ethan was the kid and not the villain, but then you wiki'd Ethan and found out he was the villain and that's why you voted. (Correct me if I am wrong. If I am misreading this and you meant you wiki'd him before you revealed his identity, then the following question is moot.)

Why would you reveal the kid's identity?

Sorry. When day was first announced I sent the ability and checked the result when I came back.
I forgot Ethan was a bad guy. I though he was the kid with the dog. I then checked the wiki now when I had time and remembered who Ethan is.

unvote
Vote Dekes

I am sleepy Going to bed now before I say stupid stuff

BTW:
I saw Chesskid wrote a summary of Boone's character earlier, but for those of you who haven't watched the show...Ethan can be summed up by his quote in Farasera's signature. He infiltrates the survivors, pretends to be one of them, and does some pretty bad things, like kidnap a pregnant woman and try to kill the hobbit...so you can see why so many of us who watch the show are willing to lynch him for his name alone.


Preview Edit:
Discussion time...

I can't edit more because we're about to have dinner, but I think it's interesting that Dekes claims Claire, as Claire was Ethan's primary target.

[jenniwren]

Chess...I asked Vezo why he was willing to reveal Ethan's identity to the group at large if he thought he was the kid with the dog and not the villain. It's a legitimate question, not an attack.

[jenniwren]

I saw season 1 in 2008 iirc.
I didn't remember Boone (he dies in season 2) so I checked the wiki. I saw some intresting facts there.
Claire doesn't appear in the first few episodes. She is a likely fake claim.
I checked my result also and apparently Ethan was the bad guy who gets killed by Ana Lucia iirc.
I wanted to reveal this because if he claimed something he could be scum. Wald gets taken by the others at the end of the season iirc. With his father. So I thought these two may be scum

You should double-check your wiki source. I don't know where you're looking up your information, but you might try this site for more reliable information about the show,

especially

if you are going to be making votes and other decisions based on what you read in the wiki. (This is for everyone who may not be familiar with the show. I don't know if you will need it, but just in case, here it is.) http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page

For clarification:

Claire

is

there from the very beginning, in the pilot episode; she is a pregnant survivor of the plane crash. She's one of the first people Jack checks on after the crash. She spends most of season one being very pregnant and being a kidnap victim.

Ethan is the Other who is killed by a traumatized Charlie (not Ana Lucia), who shoots him to make sure he can never hurt anyone again. He's definitely a baddie. (Because Ethan kidnapped Claire, almost killed Charlie, and threatened to kill others.)

Walt is a child (with some psychic type powers), and the Others do kidnap him at gunpoint, but not his dad, and

everyone

is pretty much devastated when they find out. He's just a kid, not a villain (his dad ends up doing some crazy things, though).

[jenniwren]

Yep yep...Michael, Walt's dad, ends up with Ana Lucia and the Tailies, and then they cross the island and meet with everyone else. He goes looking for Walt on his own later, though. Then he comes back and shoots people and it's sad. I cried.

[jenniwren]

I wasn't necessarily going to vote you if said your name really was Ethan

Btw I think most of us would have been up for lynching him if he confirmed that his name was Ethan, even if he claimed a pro-town ability+flavor.

I would have for certain. I haven't ever forgiven Ethan for nearly killing my favorite hobbit. For reals. Seriously though, it would be difficult for me to see how Ethan could be on the Losties side at all. He stands out as being the only definitive villain from S1.

[jenniwren]

Chess...that's all you get from being called Hurley? Hurley > all. And I mean that in every sense of the word GREATER.

[jenniwren]

Sawyer is cool...but Hurley is GREAT. The beauty of Lost, though, is the characters. Love them or hate them, they are all so real and alive. And so great for so many different reasons.

[jenniwren]

In other news, jenniwren avoided the whole iussue of Dekes/Vezok apart from the initial claim. Who's scum Jenni? Your last few posts have been talking about nothing game related.

I realized that last night. I was up late working on a response to a game I had just replaced into, and was checking into this thread for fun. I saw Vezo make the claim, but it was reeeally late and I couldn't think of anything useful to say and just made random fangirl comments instead. (I also got sidetracked earlier in the thread when I thought Vezo might need a new Wiki source, which was intended to be useful; only one of those comments on P5 was superfluous to the thread, as the other comments were made to correct Vezo's misinformation.) I didn't have anything to say about the plans to encrypt role claims to catch Vezo because I pretty much agreed with Jason that there is no reliable way to prevent scum-tampering, and finally, I also wasn't too sure about the lyncher role, having not seen it before.

I first thought Vezo was suspicious because he thought Ethan was the kid with the dog. I had a fleeting idea that he was looking for Walt for some reason, which is why I asked why he revealed Dekes' identity if he wasn't sure Ethan was the villain. However, I couldn't figure out why Boone would need to find him. After Dekes' claim, I wasn't sure what to think; I believed him, but as I think Claire would be town, I also wondered if it was a safe fake claim. At the same time, I was still a little disbelieving at the "luck" Vezo had in snagging Ethan at the beginning of D1. The fact that Dekes was claiming Claire, who was Ethan's target, stood out to me (noted in post 94) I knew something was going on, but I couldn't put together the puzzle.

As to whether or not Claire could be scum, from what I've read about lynchers, their targets are usually town. Also, Claire is very pregnant in S1, which makes me want to believe she's town in the game, as even the

idea

of lynching a pregnant woman, scummy or not, is kind of creepy. Which, from what you guys say about Reck, may mean she IS scum, but that's a big glass of WIFOM and I don't want to drink from that cup just yet.

As for whom I suspect to be scum?

I don't like Longing's comment that Dekes was ignoring Vezo before he claimed (post 51), but that post is Dekes very first content post, and he quotes Vezo and says "What Farasera said," which was "No. We're not name claiming unless you can give me a reason to think we should. It's important is not good enough." I don't think that's ignoring. He responded to Vezo in his first post and said he was refusing to name claim. Longing says in post 77 that Dekes is ignoring Vezok, then Dekes rebuts him in post 93, and Longing comes back in post 131 and insists that yes, Dekes did ignore Vezok. That's fishy to me because obviously Dekes DID post a reponse to Vezo in his very first content post. I don't know how insisting otherwise can change the content of that post. He hasn't posted much more, but this insistence bothers me a lot.

I have some more to add, as there are a couple of things that have happened that stand out to me, but I have an appointment in a few minutes, so I have to cut it short for now.

(By the way, I will try to avoid fangirl comments in the future. I am just a super-fangirl, to the point I even took a special topics graduate seminar focused on LOST in which I got to roleplay Juliet and speak for her character during the semester. It was pretty awesome. This love of the show is why I signed up for the game, but I will try to tone it down, or to at least temper it with more useful comments.)

Preview Edit: Rolefishing? How?

[jenniwren]

@

Dramonic

: It's been a rough week, but I DID post something on Tuesday. (Post 197: viewtopic.php?p=2484020#p2484020) I clearly state that I'm coming back to the argument I started, but I haven't had a chance to do so until now because of some real life issues. Also, while I did post a couple of fangirl comments (ISO 4--in response to an ongoing discussion, 6, and 7), I actually posted a couple of useful things earlier in the thread (ISO 1-3, 5). You could probably find them in my ISO, but I summarize them in post #197, linked here. I hope this clears up any question you had about my participation.

Also on that note, Jason is V/LA. Why are you speculating we are a scum team with Adem? Aside from my not posting anything "game-related," you don't give any reasoning for accusing any one of us.

Finally, about the FaraSera comment regarding Dekes/Claire and the fakeclaim. He said it was "more likely" that Claire was a fake claim than scum, which infers to me that he meant she's not either one, but that if she were, she would more likely be a fakeclaim than a scum. It's like saying "if that's true, then I'm a monkey's uncle" or something else completely subjunctive; that's how I took it, anyway. Just a thought.

@

MoI

: I had to cut my posting short on Tuesday and didn't vote then because I wanted to finish before doing so. Before I get into the case I want to make today, I want to answer a question that wasn't specifically addressed to me, and that was as to who could be scum out of the S1 cast. Ethan, of course would be the most obvious choice for scum, as he actively infiltrated the Losties and did very bad things. However, I am not discounting the possibility that characters like Mr. Friendly (aka Tom, who stole Walt), Rousseau, the US Marshal, or even Christian Shephard might be in-game scum or third party characters.

About

TheLonging

: I started my case with him, but since then, Chess made the comment that "First, I think TheLonging genuinely missed Dekes comment about the nameclaiming in general, since he didn't address it specifically at Vezok, and a bunch of people were talking about it at the time" (Post 214). TL agreed with this, and hasn't posted since. I am willing to put my case against him on hold until he posts again.

About

HackerHuck

: His early posts seem sincere enough to me; I was also confused about the lyncher; I thought Vezok's story was too good to be true, and when Dekes' claimed Claire, I was really thrown off, since he was claiming to be Ethan's primary target (again, look at FaraSera's signature...it was always her). I can empathize with his reaction to that incident. I think you (MoI) have made some interesting points about him, primarily the one about "cognitive dissonance," but I'm not sold on his guilt, and he's made some good points in today's posts.

About

BloodCovenent

: I didn't like his suggestion that everyone nameclaim right away (post #49/ISO #4); even if there is a flavor-scramble, we can't count on that, and I know my flavor makes sense with my role, and there are ample characters who could be scum who are also among the fourteen protagonists, so this seems like a way to try to rolefish; I think there's an assumption on the floor (someone said it in an offhand sort of way) that Jack would be the obv-doc, so when and if someone claims Jack, they will be putting a big fat target on their heads based on name only (unless Jack is really scum, in which case, nameclaiming might actually benefit him). However, several people have already addressed this point, so I won't belabor it any longer.

You bring up some good points in your Tuesday post #209, but there a couple of things I want to add to that or expound upon on my own.

In this post, BC responds to MoI about his earlier comment that he had noted MoI as being the one who brought up the idea of a lyncher.

The person who brought up the idea of someone being a lyncher is (imo) just as scummy as someone who brings up the idea of a jester. It's a scum tactic to distract the town from a possible scum lynch.

Had it been later in D1, and we were approaching a no-lynch situation, I could see why BC would have called it scummy as it could be a stalling tactic. However, this statement came pretty early in the day and ended up being valid. I think being quick to call the suggestion scummy is fishy.

In BC's post defending himself against MoI's case, I don't like that he resorts to caps lock/swearing. I find that to be an intimidation tactic, as well as a distraction. I also don't like his reference to other games; but I don't like it when ANYONE uses that as an excuse to get by with something.

In BC's case against Chesskid, one of his primary reasons for voting Chess is "poisoning of the well" because Chess listed BC as being last to jump off the wagon. Actually, this is what Chess posted. Notice that he says BC was the SECOND person off the wagon, not the last.

The people who hopped

on

that wagon, in order were:
FaraSera
Me
Vezo
TheLonging
[Ademisk hops in with an objection and an FoS Sera]
BloodCovenent hops in.
[Dekes claims]
I hop off to think things over
BloodCovenent hops off.

I don't really see that as poisoning any well; it's not even something that registered with me. However, BC is a bit defensive about it and jumps to his conclusion very quickly.

As to the other reasons behind his vote on Chess, I think that they are pretty weak: aren't Quick Topics standard for mafia/masons/etc? Also, he claims Chess makes an OMGUS case, but his case on Chess includes the ordered list as well as the comment that "Claims to give me time to respond before he votes. but doesn't." and that Chess's vote on BC is scummy because it's a pressure vote. I think that pressure votes can be useful tools, so unless Chess has done something else that makes it appear that his pressure vote is just opportunistic bandwagoning, I don't think that calling it scummy holds water, especially since Chess has made a habit of applying pressure votes. The other reasons BC lists for voting Chess seem like weak support for the thesis that he is scum, and they don't even support the claim that a pressure vote may be a smokescreen for scumminess.

Overall, I think BC has been behaving questionably. He seems a bit overly defensive, and by this I mean that the questions put to him are based on his own actions; they are legitimate questions, and I think his overreaction to them indicates that he has something to hide. Also, his case on Chess is demonstrably weak, and despite his accusations that Chess is full of OMGUS, his own case against Chess is pretty much BUILT on it.

Vote: BloodCovenent

[jenniwren]

QQ, I really wanted a donut, too. I didn't realize you had a specific plan in motion. /sorry

As to my character speculation, I've just been running through S1 in my head, wondering about the possibilities. We know Ethan is in-game, and has targeted Claire, and he was the most obvious villain of the season. As for a couple of the ones I listed, though they have limited roles in S1, Tom's taking Walt was a catalyst for so many other things, and Rousseau also kidnapped Aaron at the end, too, so basically there are three kidnappers all lurking about and stalking Walt, Claire, and Aaron. No matter their motivations or anything else, they are all willing to take people against their will (though I guess Rousseau is less likely to be in-game than Tom, as Aaron is also sort of Ethan's target.) It makes me wonder if other roles are in-game targets in some way like Claire is (which makes it seem even more important to be careful about claiming). Anyway...that's probably me thinking too much.

By the way...what

is

PoE

...sorry for the newb question.

So. BC has been cleared. Time to put someone else under the microscope.

Unvote

Ademisk

, your case on Vezo (ISOs 10 and 15) is...interesting. Why are you so insistent in making such a case for lynching Vezok, whose credibility is already shot?

The only motivation I can see for wanting to make an easy and obvious lynch like that early in the day (and early in the game, for that matter) is a scummy motivation because it would require us to lynch someone whose intentions we already know and whose flip would therefore be uninformative. On the flip side, it would give scum a day pass and NK. The plot you have presented is contrived of WIFOM (that Vezo is really just scum masquerading as a lyncher), and the conclusion of your argument suggests we go so far as to lynch him because he said he would get in our way. Well...since we're all pretty much ignoring him, we're not really in any danger of that. Also, you make comments like "the admission itself was garbled and incomprehensible" (ISO 10), but Vezo's admission is one line: "Dekes is Claire alright. I am Ethan and I have the fake claim Boone. And yes I am a lyncher."
That's pretty clear; there are two other paragraphs in that post, but his actual admission is singular and specific. I wouldn't call that a misrep exactly, but it's not an accurate analysis of the post, either.

Because I think your motivations in pushing a Vezo lynch are full of scummy intent, I will

Vote: Ademisk

P.S. Obligatory fangirl comment about how much I wish I had a million dollars to spend on the LOST auction...they are actually auctioning the Jesus Stick, among other things.

P.P.S.: Sorry if I'm a bit scattered tonight; just drove 600 miles to get back to school. Sooo tired.

[jenniwren]

@Adem: I don't know that we should necessarily trust anyone who makes a claim about anyone else, but we're very early in the game, and I have no reason to keep a vote on someone if there is a good chance it's a bad vote. More discussion is needed; there isn't any reason to push the lynch until we've had time to reexamine the situation.

Also, if this is the case:

Vigging Vezok would definitely be the ideal resolution to our current problem. I'm not trying to out anyone.

Then why do you still have a vote on him? Why did you make the case on him to begin with? This comment seems to be meant to appease MoI and maybe others.

I think your case on Vezo is weak, and the claim that it is a pressure vote is as well. Vezo doesn't really need more pressure; I am pretty sure he knows his options are limited. It seems like it is allowing you get away with making a case on someone and using your vote on someone without actually doing any real scumhunting of your own. Also, it's not going to make you "look bad" if you push the wrong wagon today, so it seems to also be something to keep you out of the limelight as far as that goes.

Do you have any other suspects, or is Vezo it? Can you make a case on anyone else? You disagree that anyone should accept Dram's statement about BC, but you haven't voted for BC, so why are you concerned if his wagon stops? Your only voiced suspicions of BC were his call for nameclaiming (which pretty much everyone has disagreed with) and his "WIFOM" about how he would have acted were he scum--but the argument you reference also includes a vote for you . Also, BC was the main suspect at the time; did you have any other suspicions of him other than the nameclaiming comment (which was shot down by many people) or the WIFOM? Is there any other reason at all you might have been suspicious of him?

[jenniwren]

Waffling? Really? In recent posts, I have answered MoI's questions about how I felt about three specific people, given my views on my strongest reads, and voted. You were my strongest scum read. After you received your reprieve, I moved on to my second strongest read, Adem. It was originally TheLonging, but he has addressed one of my concerns and promises a follow-up post; I'm waiting for that, but he's still not my strongest scum-read. My last post is me questioning Adem about his play. I think I've been pretty specific; can you explain what you mean by waffling?

[jenniwren]

I'll narrow things down a bit more. I'm town, so that means we're left with Adem and HH for a D1 lynch. Gee, is it always this easy?

My vote is still on

Adem

. I think his Vezo case is an attempt to appear to be scumhunting while not doing anything of the sort, and his unvote is laced with self-preservation. Also, his "unvote" post is troublesome primarily because it doesn't seem like he has any other suspects, and he asks for HH's comments about FaraSera and MoI rather than making a stand of his own against either of them (Of all eleven other players, why HH?).

@HH:

I wouldn't mind hearing what you have on MoI or FSHydra.

If anything, FSHydra might be easier to figure out if he's scum since both people would have to keep the story straight.

I'll do an ISO on him later, but I invite you to do one too

.

That said, I think I will

unvote

Vezok for now. I've made a case on him as best I could, but nobody else sees it that way.

Since more people than there are mafia showed their dislike for it, I'd be wasting my time and needlessly risking my life further by sticking to it

. This does not in any way alleviate my suspicions of him, but for the time being I'll look elsewhere. Still not liking how both Vezok and dram started being against BCs lynch at essentially the same time. Maybe I'll ISO dram along with FSHydra next.

Speaking of

HH

...as of last Thursday, I had a null/"maybe scum" read on him as BC and Adem were at the top of my list. However, AGar and MoI have made good points about him, and there isn't much I can add to the discussion except that I think his last post made it seem like he didn't have anyone he could actually make a case against at this point, and that though he "doesn't get" the MoI love and isn't "too keen" on the hydra, he isn't willing to make a case on them. If you really think someone is scummy, why wouldn't you make a case on them? If you're town, that's your job. You don't just get to focus on the ones that might be an easier lynch. Anyway, the cases against him are strong, and I don't see him doing any scumhunting, so I wouldn't be opposed to lynching him and will change my vote if needed.

I'm going to give a pass to Vezok, Dekes, Dram, BC, and Chesskid today.

That leaves me to look at Magna, Seraday, AGar, Ademisk, Jason, and Jenni. I don't really get all of the Magna love, but he hasn't moved too far up my scum list yet. I'm still trying to read Seraday. I'm not too keen on the hydra thing, because it makes reads much harder.

I'll focus on those last four, only because I'd be wasting my breath talking about the others.

@Mod:

What is the D1 deadline? If I am counting correctly, we have until Tuesday of next week? Or Wednesday?

@Everyone:

Note: I'm not technically V/LA, but I am sort of V/LA

. I won't have Internet at home until Thursday night (between 5-7 p.m.), and I've been at the mercy of the library's hours for Internet access since Friday. As of today, they are open from 8 a.m. to midnight, so it's just a matter of my being here. Their hours were limited over the last weekend, however, and they were closed on Labor Day.

[jenniwren]

MagnaofIllusion

Also, his "unvote" post is troublesome primarily because it doesn't seem like he has any other suspects, and he asks for HH's comments about FaraSera and MoI rather than making a stand of his own against either of them (Of all eleven other players, why HH?).

You highlight a quote made by Ademisk himself that says he’ll be ISO FSHydra later. Why attack Ademisk for being unwilling to looking into FS and myself when he explicitly says he will.

I read that as him asking HH to comment first, which bothered me.

As he

has

posted his ISO in the interim, I will retract that comment; I suppose I was being a bit impatient per my interpretation and as I would rather someone make their own case before asking what others think. (Note, Adem also told me to have patience when he did the ISOs.)

HackerHuck

Anyway, we should maybe move away from Vez and start to look for actual scum instead of chasing lynchers. I quite like jenniwren for scum right now, Like I said earlier his interactions so far have been almost like he is trying to add nothing, while looking like he is with the lost character talk. I guess you could also see that as slight rolefishing.

vote:jenniwren

Maybe some pressure will hep him give us content

a basic pot-kettle lurker vote. I did like the vote at the time, but the tail off of that post makes it seem like he's not really looking for scum. Voting for content usually doesn't work too well and it's worse if you telegraph it.

Just one question: If you liked the vote at the time, why weren't you voting me? What is your reason for liking the vote? You hadn't even mentioned me at the time, and you didn't have a vote on anyone else (and still don't).

Adem

I am going to decline the invitation to do an ISO on MoI and FaraSera at this time; I think their intentions are fairly obviously pro-town. I don't always agree with their conclusions (most notably FS's conclusion that landed me on the "most likely to be scum" list), but that doesn't mean I think they're scum.

As for me paying too much attention to you, I think your intentions have been demonstrably scummy. Dekes put it into the words I was grasping for when he said you were distancing yourself from any lynch that might go down today, but that's pretty much the crux of what I've been driving at all week. I think that's pretty scummy because you appear to be seriously scumhunting while potentially avoiding taking any flak for a mislynch.

I can appreciate your willingness to take a risk by going after people you say you think are scummy even if it's an unpopular decision--and I daresay it's what you should do, if you have a substantial case, but do you see anything scummy about those of us who seem to be under more scrutiny and might actually be lynched now? How do you feel about a HH lynch? Or, since my name was run up on the pole, how do you feel about me? Or Jason? We've all been publicly named the most likely to be scum, so what is your reaction to those accusations?

[jenniwren]

How can someone acknowledge the post and tell you how much of their info you can divulge if they don't know you?

[jenniwren]

unvote

[jenniwren]

I don't want to reveal my role or Adem's, but he would be a bad lynch today. And Adem, no, I wasn't told who you were.

[jenniwren]

Why accept Dram/BC without a HINT of rolefishing? If you're going to make Adem name claim, you have to make one of them do the same. It's not fair to push the issue for one and not the other.

Because of my role, I know that Adem is town because of his knowledge of my role. When Adem said he knew something about another player, I was 99% sure it was me. I didn't know for certain anyone would have my information because

I

don't have anyone else's information, but it doesn't surprise me that someone does know who I am at all.

I am going out for the evening, but if anything else comes up I will answer what I can when I get back.

[jenniwren]

I can't confirm beyond a shadow of a doubt that

any

one is town except for myself; however, if Adem knows my role, flavor, and character name, then it's almost impossible that he isn't town. However, I can't completely 100% clear his name because I didn't get any information about him with my pm, but it makes sense to me that someone would have gotten all of mine. I was 99% sure he was referring to me when he first brought it up, but I didn't jump in and say that because I wanted him to say who he had information on before I said anything. I don't know how much more I can say without full claiming right here and now, and there are very good pro-town reasons I don't want to do that.

[jenniwren]

I can't confirm beyond a shadow of a doubt that

any

one is town except for myself; however, if Adem knows my role, flavor, and character name, then it's almost impossible that he isn't town.

I dont know about the Lost perspective, but from a mafia perspective taht is full of blatantly false.

Point taken...but I think that there is probably a good reason he was given my info and that it probably isn't for scum purposes.

[jenniwren]

We only have two days left; I am not going to vote for Adem. I hope some more people can weigh in on this soon. I don't want to claim right now, but I'm not going to force Adem not to claim if he has to do so.

[jenniwren]

Adem: If you are lynched today, then everyone will be able to figure out who I am but I won't have a chance to explain my reasons for not wanting to be identified. I am trying to decide at this point if it's more pro-town to reveal at this point or not. If I claim, it HAS to be full claim.

Dekes...I'm voting now.

Vote: HackerHuck

[jenniwren]

You're at L-1, and so you should claim. I'll think about my options.

[jenniwren]

Yeah...pretty obvious who I am now. I can't/couldn't verify Adem's role/flavor, but see why it makes sense that he knows all of mine? And why I would think

some

one might have it? And why I was so concerned about Walt early on in the game? My fear is that someone is Tom whose win-condition is to get Walt. That's ONE reason I didn't want to be outted. The other reason is that you do NOT want anything to happen to me. That's why I am willing to unvote Adem: I can't see how his knowing my information and flavor would help him satisfy scum win condition at all without it being

hugely

unfair to the town.

[jenniwren]

@Jenniwren: I hate you for that softclaim. I hate you.

So...the scum must be loving all the info THEY got today. Chess, do you think I had a choice? Think about it my options once I was outed. I could full claim if you like, though, just so there isn't any doubt.

[jenniwren]

Chess...did you see me ask you something?

[jenniwren]

Yeah...Vez...sigh.

[jenniwren]

Why would it be better to vig a town?

[jenniwren]

I'm not certain she's town, but she's the pregnant woman...and since I'm the kid, and I'm town, I'm thinking she's probably town, too, especially since this is S1.

[jenniwren]

FaraSera's flip blows a hole in my theory that Dram/BC are Sun and Jin who had the lovers role and that the death of one would mean the death of the other--which would have explained why Dram would claim what he did about not killing BC until the end (with that comment implying he maybe wasn't sure about BC's alignment but knew of consequences related to killing him). Basically I was thinking that Sun and Jin / Walt and Michael / Boone and Shannon were the only linked pairs in S1; Boone was a fake claim of Vezok, which probably eliminates a B&S pair, and since I was Walt, I knew Dram/BC weren't the W&M pair, leaving only S&J as a linked pair. I couldn't think of any other reason Dram would have been so certain about BC, and that's why I didn't question what he said.

Anyway...that theory is busted.

Prev. Edit: <snip much longer post>

MoI: I don't think I ever said main characters couldn't be scum, but I was concerned that there were peripheral characters who might be scum with different agendas as I was primarily concerned about one of them targeting Walt based on the Ethan/Claire interaction.

[jenniwren]

That wasn't what I snipped.

[jenniwren]

And I can't 100% clear anyone but my myself; but I did say it would be an unfair scum advantage if scum-Adem had all my info.

Yeah...pretty obvious who I am now. I can't/couldn't verify Adem's role/flavor, but see why it makes sense that he knows all of mine? And why I would think someone might have it? And why I was so concerned about Walt early on in the game? My fear is that someone is Tom whose win-condition is to get Walt. That's ONE reason I didn't want to be outted. <snip> That's why I am willing to unvote Adem: I can't see how his knowing my information and flavor would help him satisfy scum win condition at all without it being hugely unfair to the town.

[jenniwren]

He said he had all of my info.

Before this gets any more out of hand, I'll go and say that I too can prove I am town. I know another person's name and role, but from this thread I don't think they know me, so it could be any of you. As such, I'll lay off claiming my own role and theirs until they acknowledge this post and tell me how much of their info I can divulge.

[jenniwren]

Dekes:

I didn’t fully claim anything. Several people have said they don’t see what Chesskid saw in that comment, or they didn’t until he pointed it out.

Furthermore, read Adem’s post again. He said he could prove my name AND role. I took/take that as meaning he knows my character name and my game role. I was the one who asked him not to put it all out there, and he honored my request. I also never said I could clear him outright because I didn't even know who he was much less his role/alignment. I just said it isn't likely he is scum as he knows my name and role.

Also, I don’t know that I would call the flavor bastardized as much as unexpected; so far, the flips have shown people to be true to their in-show roles. Despite his in-game alignment, Jack was still a doctor. Read HH's claim; it looks like Hurley was a name cop meant to catch ETHAN, which is also true to the show. (Chesskid actually suggested this in ISO 23.)

Also something that comes to mind is that Ethan was practically the godfather of season 1, with it taking Hurley getting a list of all the passengers names for them to figure out he wasn't on the plane (If anything, Hurley would be a namecop imo, if there was one - sorry for the speculation on pr/names)

If Vezo hadn’t outted himself in the first five minutes of the day, then Hurley as name cop would have been very useful. Ethan did go after Claire—just like in the show; and Sun often helped Jack with medicine, as she had knowledge of herbs and holistic medicines. That’s another reason I’m willing to believe Adem-Michael is town aligned. Michael spent about 90% of his time on the island yelling “WALT!” or talking about “my boy,” and the other 10% of his time making eyes at Sun. It doesn’t make sense that he and Walt are on different teams; Sun and Jin, yes. Boone and Shannon, yes. Michael and Walt, no. (Other concrete and obvious pairings are escaping me.)

Dramonic:

Yesterday you said I was scum for not contributing to the game, which I refuted; you later changed your vote, but said you found me scummy a few more times after that. Today because I’m alive you say, “I told you so.” My first question is that I wonder if the scum would rather kill FaraSera, who is pretty dangerous as a hydra made of two experienced players, or someone who has enough suspicion surrounding her to be mislynched later?

My being alive could be due to several different things: that they found FaraSera more dangerous than me and are fine with saving me for a ML since they can only kill one a night; or they figured that this game will probably have more than two days, so they can hold off on killing me or save my mislynch until closer to a LYLO situation when it would make much more of an impact; or that they didn't see what Chesskid saw; or, Or, OR. I can think of at least two more reasons I'm still alive that having nothing to do with your conclusion that my being alive means I'm scum.

******
I have more, but this is turning into an unwieldy wall, and it will be completely out of control if I don't stop now. More to come.

[jenniwren]

I'm still putting together a post, but for the time being, I'm going to say this:

Adem said he knew my name and my role. I understood that to mean that he knew my character's name and my assigned role in the game. I had no reason to doubt him, because I AM Walt, and only Michael would have any reason to know that. When he claimed Michael, it would have been obvious who I was. It made perfect sense to me, and it also made sense to me that he would therefore be town-aligned.

I wish he had done it some other way, as in said my character name and His role rather than offering to out mine, but what's done is done. I accepted his claim because it made sense to me, and I unvoted him because he was at L-1 and SOME people have an itchy trigger finger. Whether I understood him correctly or not, I have a good reason not to suspect him, and that doesn't make me scum.

@ Adem: I have no idea who gets fake claims and who doesn't, so I believed Vezok when he said he had the fake claim of Boone; also no one called him out about it, and several people jumped on the wagon.

@Everyone (mainly Chess and MoI, who were discussing it): I can't find information on Mafia Doctor in the wiki. How does it work?

[jenniwren]

For MoI:

I had a vote on BC (Post 260) but removed it when Dram cleared him. It must have been between vote counts; when I removed it (Post 267), I then voted Adem, the next suspect on my list. (Just for record-keeping purposes.)

An ISO of Jason will show him agreeing with FaraSera's vote on me but not placing an actual vote on me (ISO 16). It will then show him voting for me after Chesskid (whom FS had called obv-town at this point) does, making me a "safe" wagon endorsed by a now confirmed town and an obv-town:

Anyway, we should maybe move away from Vez and start to look for actual scum instead of chasing lynchers. I quite like jenniwren for scum right now, Like I said earlier his interactions so far have been almost like he is trying to add nothing, while looking like he is with the lost character talk. I guess you could also see that as slight rolefishing.

vote:jenniwren

Maybe some pressure will hep him give us content

My response to him was..."Rolefishing? How?" (Post 197). Because fluffy or not, I never posted anything that could be misconstrued as rolefishing. (And only three posts were fangirl comments, and the others were posted for specific reasons.) He then backed down from what he had to have known was a bogus claim....

Just with the talk about characters really, it could be fan-girlish i suppose.

When he finally unvoted...

unvote

main reason of my vote was to get Jenni talking more, I thought maybe some pressure would do that. Going to get caught up by tomorrow evening, sorry... just been bloody busy and am behind in all my games this week

No mention of rolefishing; it was never explored or followed up on; he just threw out the word to sound like he was trying to sound like he was scumhunting.

Finally: In looking more closely at the Adem wagon and it's demise: I was the first one to leave it because I believe Adem's claim. Chess comes back "ready to hammer" and finds Adem has been cleared so he votes

Jason

instead (townie points);

Jason

then unvotes Adem and moves his vote to

HH

;

FaraSera

unvotes and moves to

Jason

.


*I also double checked, and the one and only time I ever suggested that the scum might not be main characters was in Post 267, so I'm not sure why you said my "constant" suggestions in Post 438. Just an update: you had proposed the scum might be the raft crew; I'm proposing that they might be some of the caves crew, but I think it's kind of moot to go by names at this point.

Oh yes, and no one has answered me about this yet: how does a Mafia Doctor work? I've not been able to find that anywhere in the wiki.

[jenniwren]

Actually Dekes, I've been working through an extensive rereading of the thread, and I didn't want to just post for the sake of posting, so I haven't.

The REASON I haven't done much aside from answer questions on D2 is because I've had a lot of questions addressed to me, and I've had a lot to process and think about. Also, it's pretty rich that you would call someone out for not posting much since your post about me not posting much basically starts with a reason you're not posting much. I'm not done with the post I want to make (i.e., not ready to vote yet), but here's a brief synopsis of my notes to keep you sated until I am.

1) Its up to

Adem

to clear himself with the rest of you. I don't think he's scum, but I've never said I could 100% clear him.

Not agreeing with people who think he is scum does not make me scum in return

. That is

craplogic

. If you lynch him, it will have to be without me; there are enough of you to do that if you reeeally want to. I was at one point convinced he was scum, and now I have reason to believe he is not. I've shared my reasons for not thinking so, and it's up to him and the rest of you what happens to him now. If he flips scum, then obviously I was wrong, but again, that doesn't mean I'm scum, too.

2) Right now I am leaning town on

CK

despite the fact that he has posted enormous amounts of fluff (so much so that I'll never know why a few random posts of mine got any attention at all), but his ISO 62-4 show him choosing not to hammer Adem and instead choosing the Jason wagon instead of the HH wagon. I could WIFOM all day about that choice, but when it comes down to it, he was encouraging people to vote for Jason, not just voting him on his own, even though the HH wagon would have been a logical choice for scum CK, especially on D1.

3)

MoI

seems town to me, but sometimes I have a fleeting thought that he is just reeeally good scum. For example, his comment that I was making "constant" suggestions about the scum group not being amongst the protagonists is wrong. I only said something to that effect one time, so the choice of the word "constant" is puzzling to me. Those little comments are few and far between, though. Also, I've found that I often suspect really strong players on general principle. (I blame the dungeon master of my irl gaming group for this, as he is a "bastard mod" so to speak and I have long been conditioned to not trust anyone who seems helpful, ever, as doing so will generally result in very bad things.)

4)

Dram

and

BC

are fishy, but they aren't exactly going out of their way to appease the town, which is something scum would try to do. That makes me think town, but I'm not absolutely certain about either of them in one way or another. It's either both or neither with them, and they aren't talking, so there isn't a whole lot to work with other than what I've already said, and not much to say other than that they are in the same boat as Adem and I, except that they seem to know each other's alignment whereas I don't know Adem's for sure, and they haven't nameclaimed.

5)

AGar

, at the beginning of the day you were insistent that CK was scum, but you begin backing off in your ISO 15 and refocusing on Dram/BC. Is there a reason other than the fake-hammer and some IoA that you particularly feel CK is scum, but you stopped pushing it?

6)

Dekes

, I've been back and forth over you this entire time, because as a woman it's kind of creepy to think about lynching a pregnant woman, even in a game. I've been trying to put that aside and be objective about the game, though, and, I basically have two issues with you.

A) In this post (ISO 9), you say:

I don't get the suspicions for jenni though. She was passive at the beginning, but has picked up the pace (granted, after she has been prodded by others) and her posts didn't seem that useless at all. Strong stances, questioned her suspects, no vague infos. And no, I don't think I'm confusing long posts = town posts here, just because I tend to make fewer, but longer posts myself. Not on my scum list.

In ISO 15 it's this:

I'm undecided about jenni. I mostly get town vibes from here and I would believe a scenario where scum had a town player's name but not vice versa (I believe there's a role that does that, but I can't recall what it's called). Jenni being alive irks me though. I can see FSH being killed based on his play style so far, but Jenni openly claiming a dangerous PR not being killed? But eh, this is just pure WIFOM here.

And nothing about my alignment or how you feel about it again until ISO 22:

I just quick-Iso'd jenni. Boy, is she flying (at least under my) radar. Her last post is almost three days old, she hasn't expressed any suspicions at all on D2 and instead has only been answering to questions directed at her and continued trying to clear Adem.

This makes me more wary of her wary of her than I originally was.

You weren't "originally" wary of me. Until this post, you have stated things that indicate you don't think I'm scum. (I left out a post in which you say you think as a pair, BC and Dram are scummier than the pair of Adem and me, but that Adem is the scummiest individual, which further infers I am not in your suspect list.)

Question:

Why paint it as though you have been wary about me all along, when you haven't been?

B) You vote HH in ISO 9, but you don't talk about him at all there. Your reason for voting is based on previous posts/reasons given by others and yourself.
You change your vote to Adem in ISO 10, and your reason is basically a summary of my argument, which is that he was pushing null lynches. At this point Jason and Vezo had also voted him, so it was a safe wagon to join. After D2 started, you continue to talk about how suspicious you are of Adem, but you've been parroting my original argument about him distancing just as you have been all along. Recent posts have moved on from that, but that has been the crux of your argument for a while.

Question:

Can you build a case on anyone that doesn't revolve around what others have already said about that person?

7) Vezo: just wants to end the game quickly at this point; no new ground to cover here.

[jenniwren]

1)

I posted an incomplete set of notes in 573, not a full case. I said that; I posted a summary of my notes because I wasn't done with my full case. I haven't been sitting idly this week. I've been trying to sort it all out and process what people are saying. In case it wasn't clear, I didn't say I found no one scummy. I am working through my thoughts on everyone, and it should have been clear by the questions I asked and the fact that I said I had a townie feel for pretty much everyone but two people that I was making a list of my scum---->town reads

I'm not fence-sitting. In post 573, I clearly say I think CK, MoI, Dram, BC, and Adem are town; however, I felt like I needed to justify why I don't think CK, Dram, BC, and Adem are scum when they are taking a lot of heat and so I walked through my thought process as to why I think they are town. I thought about what people have said about them, weighed that evidence against my own readings, and decided I disagree with the arguments against them, and I won't be voting for them. If that wasn't clear, it should have been.

It also should have been clear that of the nine of us remaining that I find AGar a bit scummy and Dekes quite scummy, as evidenced by the fact that I asked them questions and didn't say I think they are town when I

did

say I think everyone else was town. Maybe I should have spelled it out for everyone, but I didn't as I thought it was obvious enough.

2)

I don't think we should decide to lynch Vezok unless we're clear on Dekes/Claire. I'm not opposed to lynching Vezo as taking him to LYLO would be bad, but Dekes is currently my primary suspect because he a) parrots other people's cases, and b) is contradictory in his postings (see post 573 for more details on "a" and "b"), and c) his interactions with Jason--or Jason's interactions with him--are either non-existent or protective. You (MoI) pointed out Jason's ISO lacked references to Dekes, and I'm pointing out that the reverse is also true. (He mentions Jason once, in ISO 12. There's an...interesting...tenor...to that exchange. Almost a "wink wink, nudge, nudge" tone, even.)

I think Dekes got really, really lucky early in the game because Vezo's actions allowed him to be righteously indignant from the beginning. He claimed Claire, but never role-claimed (and I'm not asking him to), and several of us, including FaraSera and me, had difficulty with the idea that Claire could be scum. This week I've been reading the entire game again, with different angles, and one of those has included exploring Jason's interactions with others, including Dekes.

Jason's reaction to FaraSera's proposal to let Vezo win his cause as well as his reaction to Vezo's threat to be unpleasant is interesting, as it sounds very townie; but if he is Dekes' scumbuddy, then it could also be fear that one of his partners would be lynched. As several people had pointed out at that point in the game, it would have been in the scum's best interest to allow the mislynch to go through. However, Jason, the one known scum, is vehemently protesting it. Is this to look uber-townie, or is it to protect his partner?

Finally, his deflection away from Vezok and onto me in post 196 with the comment that we should be hunting "real scum" (which he never intended to do) is telling; he wants out of that debate, and fast. On the next page, when Dram offers to help Vezo win if he helps catch scum, Jason freaks again. (By the way, MoI and HH addressed some of these quotations in ISOs of Jason but didn't address the idea that he was potentially protecting a partner. MoI used them to address that Jason is posting fluff, and HH used them to address that he was posting fluff and BS'ing about not understanding the lyncher role.)

Wait, you would support a lyncher getting his win cause?... in my experience with lynchers and it is limited to my admission... A lyncher is never set out to lynch an anti-town role. That would mean willingly supporting a lynch of a town role??? thats not very pro town.

It is actually something scum might suggest to get rid of a town member? a lyncher is usually an anti town role. I don't like helping a lyncher win the game with a lynch of someone who could be town.

major FOS: Faraseradayaphim

Unless you can show me where a lyncher has set out to lynch an anti-town role in a game, this could well turn into a vote.

If he wants to win I'll help him, if he keeps up this charade he'll end up losing what could be an easy game.

And if he really is a lyncher, lynching a town role you would support that? I don't see a lyncher achieving his win condition by lynching scum... as that is all our win conditions (except those who are scum) I support lynch on scummy people.. not to help a hypo lyncher win.

I don't like this... threatening the town to help you with your win condition? Sorry, I don't care much for helping a lyncher win the game, I care about lynching scum and winning the game. Have you any intentions of helping town?

Because it is not it towns interests to help 3rd party. It is in towns interest to lynch scum, and helping you win, could mean the lynch of a possible town member. You see the problem? What do you mean by you will do unpleasent things? Is this a threat towards the town? if so, its not helping your case.

even if that means a possible mislynch on someone who could be town? Look, your exposed.... you cant furfil your win condition, accept it.

Look, I really don't care if I am your bad side or not. I will not help you achieve your win condition without solid proof Dekes is scum. Until that time I will not support a lynch on someone who could be town just so you can win.

Dekes asserts that scum would be more likely to push his lynch through--but it's Jason, and not HH, who tried to stop it, so that theory is derailed right there. (While I've got this quote up here, in this quote, the last part (beginning with "BTW") could be rolefishing; why would a dayname cop be arbitrary or unlikely?)

I'm still looking at TL, BC now with HH as backup, because

I maintain the assumption, that rather town would doubt such a claim, especially after the holes of Vezo's story had been pointed out. Scum would be more stubborn with an easy mislynch right in front of them

.
I don't think all three of them are scum who took the bait, but I'm guessing at least one scum is among them. Now I don't like how BC declared HH town just like that. I've read a couple of games and apparently it's been done like that by the pros around here. But imo it leaves too much room for manipulation.

Btw, HH, why would you expect a cc to Vezo's claim? A dayname cop seemed like an arbitrary role made up especially to avoid being cc'd. I was thinking that even before Vezo fessed up.

In his ISO: Dekes holds people accountable for not questioning Vezo's sanity/claim; creates the "triumvirate" list of HH, TL, and BC. Votes BC; makes a case on HH; unvotes BC while V/LA "because I don't want to be part of a lynch if some exonerating info about/from BC comes up while I'm away" (and stain my hands with a mislynch?); votes HH in ISO 9 even though he spends most of ISO 9 discussing Adem and Dram; in ISO 10 says this:

I hope, HH's second half results in a vote. His first post is definitely promising. I agree with you here, Jason has to be looked at closer. He's been flying under the radar for a while and his Iso's were too much IioA. <snip stuff about Dram/BC> Ademisk's trying to appease to town too much. His FSDH Iso is rather pointless right now if it results in a townish read. And his suspects are still BC, dram and vezo, three people the majority is definitely not going to lynch. With that limited pool of suspects Ademisk is pretty much distancing himself from any possible lynch today.

Unvote; Vote: Ademisk

Hmmm. Calling for more investigation of Jason, then talking about Dram and BC before voting Adem.

Also, in this post, Dekes seems to imply that he is looking for good wagons, not scum.

I'm keeping my vote on Ademisk until he gives me something to believe in his innocence or a better lynch candidate is presented (and wagoned) before deadline

TL;DR:

DEKES parrots arguments; contradicts himself; keeps a running list of potential scum (primarily TL/AGar, HH, BC, Adem, Dram, BC, MoI, me); even his votes are non-committal, as he makes them while talking about how scummy 2-3 other people are at the same time; and looks for wagons upon which to hop rather than actually scumhunting. Also, Jason was vehemently against his lynch, and his interaction with Jason (and vice versa) is virtually non-existent.

Vote: Dekes

p.s. MoI: I've considered the question you asked me about Adem, and while I think it's a good question, and it has been the main thing I've been thinking about this week, I am not persuaded that Adem is scum. Reck gave him information about my identity for a reason, and I just have to trust the first instinct I had upon learning that he knew who I was. I can't vouch for him or confirm him in any other way at this time, but Michael's sole purpose in S1 was to take care of and protect his son, and my instinct says that he is on the same side as Walt in-game as well.

[jenniwren]

Why are you in such a hurry?

I went back and did a thorough reread this week, and I saw enough evidence in Dekes' play to convince me he is scum.

In case you didn't read my WoT, he basically keeps a running list of suspects, and when good wagons get going, he picks one and makes a case which parrots someone else's arguments; he says he was "originally" wary of me, but in his ISO he says more than once that he thinks I'm town, so he is contradicting himself; MoI pointed out Jason never talked about Dekes, and I found this reverse is also true--and that the ONE lynch Jason VEHEMENTLY opposed was Dekes's lynch. Jason freaked when FaraSera suggested Claire might be scum and even FOS'd him for saying it. As several people pointed out during that time, it would have been in scum's best interest to work the mislynch; THAT is why BC, TL, and HH were under so much scrutiny on D1. So far, we know that HH is town, so the scrutiny on him was fail, and that Jason was scum...so, you tell me why Jason didn't just coast on that one when all of his other votes were lame (like the "rolefishing" vote for me which he cast after you and FS got the wagon started for lurking). Finally, Dekes' posts usually talk about 2-3 people, and then he votes someone else.

[jenniwren]

Dekes

Also, it's pretty rich that you would call someone out for not posting much since your post about me not posting much basically starts with a reason you're not posting much.

Yet I've posted on a rather regular basis, have I not?
This is the second time we had to prod you to give us your thoughts. Not really in town's best interest.

Calling me out for lurking is bullshit. I've posted content more regularly than you have. If you really want to know, I got off to a slow start in the game because a) I always get off to a slow start, and b) I was still at my parents' home before coming back to school, and my family is going through some pretty serious shit right now (i.e., my grandmother was in and out of the hospital three times over the summer and my mom and I were taking care of her, among other really bad things); I posted as much as I had time and energy for and it had nothing to do with my role in this game. This past week I was taking time to process the events of D1 and what had happened so far on D2; I'm also back in school and trying to write a dissertation. (By the way "WE" didn't have to prod me for anything; FaraSera voted me the first time because I posted two stupid comments, but I already addressed that. YOU were not part of that, so don't say "we" like you were. This time you also didn't have to prod me as a post was in the works, so your "prod" was useless because I was about to post anyway.) (Also, scum points for saying "Not really in the town's best interest.")

Question:

Why paint it as though you have been wary about me all along, when you haven't been?

Intentional misrep? I said I wasn't that wary of you (meaning not wary enough to think you might not be town. I'm somewhat wary about everyone in every game, don't see anything wrong with that) up until that post.

It's not a misrep; you used the word "originally" which made it sound like you had been harboring suspicion for a while when you had already said you hadn't. Misunderstanding, I'll give you. Misrep? No way.

Question:

Can you build a case on anyone that doesn't revolve around what others have already said about that person?

Hilarious. If you wanna accuse someone of not adding a reason or case to their vote don't look in my direction.
Because a reason on one of my votes was similar to yours then it's constant parroting by me?

It wasn't just my vote; you phrased it so it looked like your original thoughts when it wasn't, and you didn't even acknowledge where it came from or try to make new points. (Your ISO 9 compared to my ISO 10-11--written several days before your case) Your other "cases" are also somewhat unoriginal.

@577
I obviously can't comment on why jason chose to ignore/defend me. I don't know how aware he is of his supposedly known scum meta and whether scum decided pre-game to bus/distance from each other and/or townies.
But I can comment on my lack of interaction with jason. I usually only concentrate on people that warrant my further investigation. You can look up all my games for that. I had basically no contact at all with FSH and they ended up town.

No, you can't comment about Jason's actions, but Jason is pretty much the only person aside from FaraSera that you didn't interact with or talk about at all. You've kept a running case on almost every other player in game (not really touching Jason, FaraSera, or MoI) pretty much since the beginning.

YOO-HOO...people saying my post listing my reads was fence-sitting

? You should reread Dekes' ISO. AFTER the Vezo stuff was sorted, you only vote for who looks like the biggest wagon at the time: BC, HH, Adem.

Your ISO:

Post 3:

About Vezo, Vote BC

Post 4:

About BC and HH (Blurb about TL)

Post 5:

Begins with CK, ends with TL, BC, and HH

Post 7:

About BC/Unvote for V/LA

Post 9:

About Adem and Dram; votes HH; this about me:

I don't get the suspicions for jenni though. She was passive at the beginning, but has picked up the pace (granted, after she has been prodded by others) and her posts didn't seem that useless at all. Strong stances, questioned her suspects, no vague infos. And no, I don't think I'm confusing long posts = town posts here, just because I tend to make fewer, but longer posts myself. Not on my scum list.

The parenthetical notation that I had to be prodded is protective fence-sitting, by the way--note he comes back to it in ISO-23.

Post 10 (my favorite):

Call for more votes; Talks about Jason, Dram, and BC, then votes Adem. Best quote ever:

I hope, HH's second half results in a vote. His first post is definitely promising. I agree with you here, Jason has to be looked at closer. He's been flying under the radar for a while and his Iso's were too much IioA.

Post 12:

Adem, BC, Jason

Post 13:

BC, Adem, me

Post 14:

Ready for nightfall!

Post 15:

Says he's not willing to vote CK

yet

but he deserves accusations for his fakehammer, then immediately after that, says he thinks CK is town; talks about Adem, does some fence-sitting about me, then votes Adem.

Post 16:

"Clears" AGar and CK; tasks Dram for his posting habits; schools me about Michael in S1 (wrongly, as in S1 Michael actually grows CLOSER to the other survivors, as he saves Charlie in the cave-in, makes friends with Sun and Jin, and rallies them all to hope for rescue; and OF COURSE his priority is his son...that's what parents DO).

Post 17:

First interaction of note with MoI; does some fence-sitting about CK, AGar, Dram, and BC again, maintains that Adem is scummiest.

Post 19:

CK

Post 20:

Adem, Dram, and BC

Post 21:

Adem

Post 22:

AGar, CK, BC, me

Basically, the only people he has avoided contact with are Jason, FaraSera, and MoI; a known scum and three (Faraday, Seraphim, and MoI) powerful players. His interactions with MoI so far have been to agree with him, at least until ISO-Post 17. He has maintained constant "suspicions" about the rest of us.

Dekes asserts that scum would be more likely to push his lynch through--but it's Jason, and not HH, who tried to stop it, so that theory is derailed right there. (While I've got this quote up here, in this quote, the last part (beginning with "BTW") could be rolefishing; why would a dayname cop be arbitrary or unlikely?)

Lots of nonsense. There's no possiblity jason intentionally distsanced from this theory (after I presented it, no less) to give him more town credit after my flip?

Useless WIFOM much?

And it was HH who was looking for a CC for vezo's role not me. How am I rolefishing when I call him out on that?

I think HH's flip proves he was doing nothing of the sort.

In his ISO: Dekes holds people accountable for not questioning Vezo's sanity/claim; creates the "triumvirate" list of HH, TL, and BC. Votes BC; makes a case on HH; unvotes BC while V/LA "because I don't want to be part of a lynch if some exonerating info about/from BC comes up while I'm away" (and stain my hands with a mislynch?); votes HH in ISO 9 even though he spends most of ISO 9 discussing Adem and Dram; in ISO 10 says this:

I hope, HH's second half results in a vote. His first post is definitely promising. I agree with you here, Jason has to be looked at closer. He's been flying under the radar for a while and his Iso's were too much IioA. <snip stuff about Dram/BC> Ademisk's trying to appease to town too much. His FSDH Iso is rather pointless right now if it results in a townish read. And his suspects are still BC, dram and vezo, three people the majority is definitely not going to lynch. With that limited pool of suspects Ademisk is pretty much distancing himself from any possible lynch today.

Unvote; Vote: Ademisk

Hmmm. Calling for more investigation of Jason, then talking about Dram and BC before voting Adem.

How is any of that making me scum?
I have to keep my vote on somebody before going on V/LA to show my commitment to my vote? Even though at any given moment new info can arise that can clear or frame someone? Okay.
I can't talk about others before giving a reasoned vote? Okay.

It makes you scum because
a) you're setting it up to protect yourself no matter what wagon you end up on by basically naming almost everyone else as suspects;
b) if you thought HH's points on Jason merited a vote, why not vote him? Why vote Adem? You actually said you HOPE it results in a vote, and YOU DIDN'T VOTE HIM;
c) you removed your vote not out of fear new evidence would clear him and we would mislynch town, but because you wanted to be sure you wouldn't get tied to his mislynch by VCs in D2--there was no need to unvote him because if new evidence were presented, the rational townies on his wagon would have unvoted him and he wouldn't ahve been lynched, but you took an extra self-protective precaution;

Finally:

Also, in this post, Dekes seems to imply that he is looking for good wagons, not scum.

I'm keeping my vote on Ademisk until he gives me something to believe in his innocence or a better lynch candidate is presented (and wagoned) before deadline

...
Deadline was getting closer and I had no intention of voting somebody else unless I was convinced to vote someone else.
Yeah, I'm only looking for wagons because I'm such a nasty wagon hopper.

Why wait for someone else to convince you? Why even state that you would change your vote if someone else convinced you? You could have just said, I think he's scum and I'm sticking to it. More fence-sitting.

@Dram:

Adem's not my buddy because I'm not scum. I just don't think he's scum. Dekes is, however. And according to him, so are you, BC, CK, AGar, Adem, and me. He's only right about one of those, unless of course MoI is his super-secret buddy and we've all been fooled so soundly.

[jenniwren]

It wasn't just my vote; you phrased it so it looked like your original thoughts when it wasn't, and you didn't even acknowledge where it came from or try to make new points. (Your ISO 9 compared to my ISO 10-11--written several days before your case) Your other "cases" are also somewhat unoriginal.

In your case against Adem you said his pursuit for vezo's lynch was him aiming for the easy lynch. I on the other hand it as distancing from any possible lynch on D1. So while we both didn't like Adem's pursuit of vezo's lynch why would I acknowledge your post if my case aims in another direction?

I think your case on Vezo is weak, and the claim that it is a pressure vote is as well. Vezo doesn't really need more pressure; I am pretty sure he knows his options are limited. It seems like it is allowing you get away with making a case on someone and using your vote on someone without actually doing any real scumhunting of your own.

Also, it's not going to make you "look bad" if you push the wrong wagon today, so it seems to also be something to keep you out of the limelight as far as that goes

.

Bold=distancing yourself from lynches, so yes, I said the same thing and you paraphrased/reworded it.

*****

"My other "cases" are also somewhat unoriginal"? Way to be precise here.

You point out things like Dram doesn't post much or that BC is mentally absent from the game or that BC is whining about quote walls, all things other people have said at some point in some way, shape, or form.

*****

you only vote for who looks like the biggest wagon at the time: BC, HH, Adem.

Where do you come up with this stuff? I was the first person to vote BC and the second to vote HH after I expressed suspicions against them for a long time. And I'm still on the Ademisk wagon no matter how small or big it's been. Surely big tells of a wagon-hopper.

You've offered to hop wagons, and you've expressed often enough that you could be convinced that just about anyone is scum. You may have started the BC wagon, but you hopped on HH for all of one post (after spending most of that post talking about Adem, Dram, and BC) because of "reasons brought up earlier by others and myself." You switch to the growing Adem wagon in your very next post after spending time in it talking about Jason, Dram, and BC.

*****

I think HH's flip proves he was doing nothing of the sort.

So you just fluffed up your case by trying to frame me for rolefishing when I was obviously not.

"Fluff" and "frame" are fighting words. Go back and read that again. It took me awhile to figure out wtf you were talking about here, and I need to make clear that I was asking if you were rolefishing HH's role, not Vezo's.

Btw, HH, why would you expect a cc to Vezo's claim? A dayname cop seemed like an arbitrary role made up especially to avoid being cc'd. I was thinking that even before Vezo fessed up.

You asked HH why he expected a cc, but here is what he said about the subject:
Before your question

We have a day-cop who is not counterclaimed and he has called you out as his target.

After your question

Dekes- I wasn't expecting a counterclaim,

Right before he was lynched, HH said this:

And before anyone gets all bent out of shape about me following Vezok, this is why I made the point about no counterclaim and why I wasn't expecting one.

You ask HH to explain why he expected a cc to Vezo's claim, and you said that role was arbitrary and made up to avoid being cc'd. I interpreted this comment of yours to be rolefishing because that role isn't arbitrary, and given the fact that HH flipped DAY NAME COP it made me wonder in my reread if you had picked up on that early on.

Also, my point about this in my original case about you was that you were possibly rolefishing when questioning him about a CC. Your response to my question was this:

And it was HH who was looking for a CC for vezo's role not me. How am I rolefishing when I call him out on that?

I replied

I think HH's flip proves he was doing nothing of the sort.

Which you called fluff? HH wasn't looking for a CC because he KNEW he was the real day-name cop.

*****

It makes you scum because
a) you're setting it up to protect yourself no matter what wagon you end up on by basically naming almost everyone else as suspects;

a) Untrue. Just because there are certain aspects I don't like about people's posts doesn't mean I think they're scum. I'm questioning people on suspicious actions and so should everyone.
I never said I think either AGar or chesskidis scum. I simply said if AGar flipped scum I'd be looking at chesskid. Because I believe their argument looked like one of two people of the same alignment. And I'm leaning town and said so.
I never said dram is scum. I don't like his non-commitment to the game and the way he and BC are handling the softclaim. I said their claim becomes more unbelievable the longer they are alive. Doesn't make dram automatically appear on my scumlist.

You're not questioning. MoI is questioning. You point out things they do or say, but you're not questioning. You have made it very clear you think CK and AGar are town, but you've also said you vote for them. In fact, in one post, you say you will vote CK right after you say he's town. You have repeatedly said you think Dram and BC are scummy. You said of the two pairs, you find Dram and BC scummiest, but individually, you find Adem scummiest. You've got three people right there that you have said are scummy and could therefore justify putting a vote on any one of them and say, "Seeeeee? I said I thought they were scummy."

*****

b) if you thought HH's points on Jason merited a vote, why not vote him? Why vote Adem? You actually said you HOPE it results in a vote, and YOU DIDN'T VOTE HIM;

b) Please, if you go so much into detail, read everything I say. Before that I said I wanted the non-voters to vote because deadline was drawing nearer and I thought they had to show their commitment on who to lynch. I was hoping for a vote in general by HH, not necessarily on jason. And I voted Adem because I found him scummier at that moment and I explained so.

You are calling multiple players scummy in one post, again protecting yourself (now, for instance, you can say you thought Jason was scummy all along). It doesn't just happen once, it happens on multiple occasions.

*****

c) you removed your vote not out of fear new evidence would clear him and we would mislynch town, but because you wanted to be sure you wouldn't get tied to his mislynch by VCs in D2--there was no need to unvote him because if new evidence were presented, the rational townies on his wagon would have unvoted him and he wouldn't ahve been lynched, but you took an extra self-protective precaution;

c) Again, I was the one who started the wagon on BC and as you can see from my posts I still think BC is scum and would vote him if my vote wasn't on Adem. So you say I unvoted to distance from that wagon and manipulate the VC analysis?...Sure.

I said you unvoted to protect yourself if he got lynched while you were gone and he flipped town. You didn't want to get caught with a vote on a townie IF and AFTER new evidence was presented while you were gone.

*****

Why wait for someone else to convince you? Why even state that you would change your vote if someone else convinced you? You could have just said, I think he's scum and I'm sticking to it. More fence-sitting.

Is that why my vote is still on Adem?

This is classic tunneling right here where literally everything I say or do is painted as being scummy (talking about 2-3 people, then voting for a 4th person...that I also address in this post and give reasons for voting him; unvoting before going on V/LA; non-existant wagon-hopping).

No, no, no. Tunneling is what I did in Castlevania with CT. I got so fixated on him that I got suckered by Zwet and the scum. I focused on him from RVS until he was lynched on D2. I won't make that mistake again. Right now I am addressing your play in this game and questioning you about it. I am in no way tunneling you.

[jenniwren]

Post 590=Concise summary of argument.

[jenniwren]

Anyway, @ Dekes. Jenni and Adem cannot possibly both be scum, that would be akin to suicide.
The last scum lies in Agar/bc/dram/dekes, and I believe it to be AGar.

Jenni, besides your case on Dekes, who do you believe the 2nd scum to be among?

It also should have been clear that of the nine of us remaining that I find AGar a bit scummy and Dekes quite scummy, as evidenced by the fact that I asked them questions and didn't say I think they are town when I did say I think everyone else was town. Maybe I should have spelled it out for everyone, but I didn't as I thought it was obvious enough.

[jenniwren]

Which they didn't think they'd be, being part of the scum team.

No.

[jenniwren]

hrmhrmhrm. If we were to lynch Dekes, Vezo would disappear, leaving 7 alive with potentially 2 scum going into the night....bleh.

I don't like it, Jenni. I agree with you on AGar, but I'm not feeling Dekes as badly as I am feeling Adem. Yes, part of me is flabbergasted at the not claiming, etc, and wants to believe he's just townie playing horribly, but I don't see it. We can't lose tonight, and if Adem _isn't_ scum, I'd want to see a lot more of Dram/BC pair explanation (neighbors with unconfirmed aligns/lovers/etc), along with AGar.

I feel like AGar/Adem makes the best pair though, or possibly Adem/dram.

Who are you flabbergasted at? Adem or Dekes? Why do you think the two remaining scum are Adem/AGar or Adem/Dram? I linked Dekes and Jason via interactions/the lack thereof. Jason protested one lynch on D1, and that was Dekes's lynch. Not once, but several times. He had no problems with any of the other lynches. Can you find similar connections between Jason and either of your pairs?

Jenni, your case could easily be applied to CK3, who is claiming that the 2 scum are in 5 of the 7 other unconfirmed players remaining, only excluding you and MoI.

Dekes has opened many suspicions, yeah. But he's stuck to one wagon today. How can you make such a blatant misrep while ignore what CK3 is doing?

You act like you've been a bastion of pro-town play, but you've required the town to prod at you to get you to do anything, and when you do, you have flaws as big as swiss cheese in your argument, and you ignore another player.

CK3/Jenni pairing is a definite possibility.

Point One

: Taken


More coming, but it's a lot of writing, so I'm breaking it up for people who don't read.

[jenniwren]

Point Two

: I didn't misrep Dekes. I pointed out a comment he made and my interpretation of it. Let me walk you through my entire thought process of how I parsed the text to arrive at that conclusion.

I'm keeping my vote on Ademisk until he gives me something to believe in his innocence or a better lynch candidate is presented (and wagoned) before deadline.

The first part looks okay, but then he adds the parenthetical "

and wagoned

."

Quick grammar lesson: In-text parenthetical phrases are generally qualifying afterthoughts or descriptors, and are superfluous to the main idea; in this case, it's an obvious qualifier, and it is most likely a scumslip as it comes after the main verb "presented," making it a decided and superfluous afterthought.

Why else is it a scumslip? It's not enough for him that someone else makes a case and votes,

it's that an actual wagon has to get started

. It also implies he's not doing anymore scumhunting of his own. That comment was made on Sunday. Dekes now says the reason he made that comment was "

deadline was getting closer and I had no intention of voting somebody else unless I was convinced to vote someone else

." So he's worried about the deadline..right?

Wrong. After he said that, Adem claimed to have my info, I believed him and unvoted, CK voted Jason, and people were questioning Adem. Two viable wagons began to form: HH and Jason. One, HH, was a wagon Dekes had been on and inexplicably hopped off of when HH made a case on Adem and Jason; the other was Jason, and Dekes had previously acknowledged that he thought HH's case on Jason was a good one, so both were wagons he had either been on before or approved of, and yet he not only avoided both of them, he didn't even question Adem or his claim.

In fact, Dekes only commented once on Sunday afternoon, after all of this (post 362) and all he did was acknowledge that he was wrong about something in his case against Adem. He does not post again until D2. The fakehammer happened on Monday...and in the time between the first comment and then, two other wagons had started--Jason's and HH's. Dekes never even commented on anything after he made his final vote on Adem--not even to question any of the three claims. He does indicate that he was keeping up with the thread, though, in this post:

Not only was HH's caim the most believable of the later claims (

though I did believe

Jason's claim, too, to be honest)

*Note another qualifying parenthetical and the use of the phrase "to be honest" as well as the past tense of the verb "do"--he is covering himself for not voting Jason even though it isn't necessary to do so; the past tense of the verb simply indicates that he wants us to know he was "there" with us during the last hours of the day--but he never spoke up or questioned anyone. This also justifies his vote on Adem because he can say he didn't believe his claim.
On D2, he says this about CK and the fakehammer of Doom:

you could've easily switched to Ademisk or someone else. Because the deadline wasn't that imminent that HH had to be lynched right then.

First: He says CK should have switched to Adem or "someone else"; BTW, "someone else" was JASON, WHO WAS SCUM. Even after the flip, he doesn't suggest that CK should have put his vote on Jason, but on Adem. Second: He wasn't participating in any of that discussion about any of the claims, but he chides CK for not believing one...but he never stepped in himself to discuss that claim.

OVERALL...Dekes' voting behavior, all wrapped up in a nutshell, looks like opportunistic scum who got reaally lucky at the beginning of D1 and was able to get away with voting our of righteous indignation.

Dekes started the BC wagon, then unvoted to go V/LA which was an unnecessary precaution; he then came back to hop on the HH wagon, stayed there for one whole post, and switched to Adem, who had three votes at the time. This was right after HH came out and made a good case on Jason, which Dekes acknowledged and then voted Adem. That switch, which came right after HH's cases on Adem and Jason (known scum), could be appeasement; the only votes on HH at that time were MoI, Dekes, and AGar. Suddenly HH makes a case on two people: one with a wagon of three, and one who flips scum. Since HH flipped town, that means his cases were actually results of earnest scumhunting. Dekes acknowledges how strong the Jason case is, but doesn't vote him. He instead votes Adem, who had a three-man wagon going. He says it's because Adem was the scummiest then, but he had running commentary going about Adem, BC, Dram, and HH himself at this point, not to mention an acknowledgment that HH's case on Jason was a good one. He also never says anything about why he moves from HH to Adem, or why he thinks Adem is scummier than Jason.

So that is my basic deconstruction of the original sentence. Dekes was looking for wagons that would stick, not for actual scum.

Point Three

: I never said I was a bastion of pro-town anything. I don't "require" the town to prod me to do "anything." On D1, I got off to a slow start, and OMG I posted two stupid comments about Hurley and OMFG that means I'm scum. I explained this then and filled in a few more blanks a few posts back. I've had a lot of stuff going on and have been trying to keep a balance. This past week I have been stopping and starting and rereading as much as I can to try to sort out D1; just because I didn't post something on your timeline doesn't mean I wasn't playing.


Prev. Edit:
When you say MoI's scum-meta, do you mean that he makes that accusation when he plays as scum? Or that is one of the tells he looks for?

[jenniwren]

I don't "believe" it as an absolute necessarily, but I looked at that, and then at Dekes' interaction with Jason, which was basically the same, and at the fact that the only lynch Jason opposed and even freaked a little about was Dekes' lynch. I think it's entirely possible to not mention people sometimes, but that was a two-way lapse, so I think it has more weight.

[jenniwren]

Good point. If there is an SK, would there be one or two more scums?

[jenniwren]

Unless there is a vig who thought Jason was lying?

[jenniwren]

Jenni is still scum.

False. Jenni is not scum and never has been.

[jenniwren]

Hmmm...After rereading, I can attest that even though I don't know BC's alignment, he's very very prob-town.

How about "I have inside information that doesn't include me being a fake-rolecop/lyncher that makes me know he's a bad lynch for the town?"

Just out of curiosity...

I was completely set to lynch Adem on D1 until he told me he had my info. Because I'm Walt, I thought there was a possibility that someone might have my info, and so when he said that, I believed him. This also gives me reason to believe he's not scum..."inside role-related information" I believe you called it when referring to BC? So, you don't know BC's alignment and expect us all to accept your assessment that he is probably town, but when someone else is put in the SAME situation, you think they are scum? How does that work exactly? I don't know all of Adem's info, and I didn't even know he was Michael until he claimed on D1, but knowing WHO he is along with knowing my own info gives me a good reason to believe he isn't scum.

**********

By the way, since some people still wrongly believe the myth that I was "active lurking" and "needed prodding" early on...

Aside from the two comments about Hurley that drew so much negative attention, the other information I had posted about the show in the beginning was

for a reason

. (And I addressed everything in ISO 8.) Go back and READ it...Vezo was claiming things based on the show, i.e., that he thought Ethan was the kid with the dog which is why he outed Dekes. I OBVIOUSLY had a VERY good reason to be concerned about that. I spent a few posts clarifying that and setting him straight...I wasn't "active lurking." I made one post about Michael/S2 after I made my first three posts which was IN RESPONSE to someone else, and then I made a post about not seeing how Ethan couldn't be the bad guy, which was again, IN RESPONSE to someone else, and the next night I made the two stupid Hurley comments (and nine hours later, posted something real). All of this happened in the space of about 3 game days, right after the game started.

[jenniwren]

Just so you don't have go look for it....

Since he's at L-2 already, I'm holding my vote until we hear from Dekes. In the meantime, I do have one question for Vezo.

I read the following post as meaning that you thought Ethan was the kid with the dog (Walt), and you revealed him to the town without waiting for him to claim because you thought that.

You didn't vote earlier because you thought Ethan was the kid and not the villain, but then you wiki'd Ethan and found out he was the villain and that's why you voted. (Correct me if I am wrong. If I am misreading this and you meant you wiki'd him before you revealed his identity, then the following question is moot.)

Why would you reveal the kid's identity?

Sorry. When day was first announced I sent the ability and checked the result when I came back.
I forgot Ethan was a bad guy. I though he was the kid with the dog. I then checked the wiki now when I had time and remembered who Ethan is.

Chess...

I asked Vezo why he was willing to reveal Ethan's identity to the group at large if he thought he was the kid with the dog and not the villain.

It's a legitimate question, not an attack.

I saw season 1 in 2008 iirc.
I didn't remember Boone (he dies in season 2) so I checked the wiki. I saw some intresting facts there.
Claire doesn't appear in the first few episodes. She is a likely fake claim.
I checked my result also and apparently Ethan was the bad guy who gets killed by Ana Lucia iirc.
I wanted to reveal this because if he claimed something he could be scum. Wald gets taken by the others at the end of the season iirc. With his father. So I thought these two may be scum

You should double-check your wiki source. I don't know where you're looking up your information, but you might try this site for more reliable information about the show,

especially

if you are going to be making votes and other decisions based on what you read in the wiki.

(This is for everyone who may not be familiar with the show. I don't know if you will need it, but just in case, here it is.) http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page

For clarification:

Claire

is

there from the very beginning, in the pilot episode; she is a pregnant survivor of the plane crash. She's one of the first people Jack checks on after the crash. She spends most of season one being very pregnant and being a kidnap victim.

Ethan is the Other who is killed by a traumatized Charlie (not Ana Lucia), who shoots him to make sure he can never hurt anyone again. He's definitely a baddie. (Because Ethan kidnapped Claire, almost killed Charlie, and threatened to kill others.)

Walt is a child (with some psychic type powers), and the Others do kidnap him at gunpoint, but not his dad, and

everyone

is pretty much devastated when they find out. He's just a kid, not a villain (his dad ends up doing some crazy things, though).

[jenniwren]

Your statement that I wanted to vote chess after calling him town is false.

I'm not willing to vote chesskid

yet

, since I have bigger suspects and because I didn't get a lot of bad vibes from him on D1. Obviously I agree that he definitely deserves the accusations for his fakehammer gambit, because it was at the very least a stupid move. Whether you intended to draw scum out with that move or not you put a claimed cop at risk and he eventually got killed. Not only was HH's caim the most believable of the later claims (though I did believe Jason's claim, too, to be honest), but you could've easily switched to Ademisk or someone else. Because the deadline wasn't that imminent that HH had to be lynched right then.

The "yet" implies that you would be willing to lynch him in the future; you say you have bigger suspects, which means that he is a suspect (because "bigger" is the comparative form of the word, meaning that there are lesser degrees of it; otherwise you would have said "other"--so more fence-sitting), and then you say that you think he deserves accusations as scum, and accusations result in votes, which result in lynches.

HH was Flavor Cop, not Day Namecop which is slightly different and I haven't come across the latter one during my search in this forum and the Wiki.

Not to try to out-guess the mod, but I'm betting HH was thinking there probably wasn't another role so similar to his.

Also: I your D2 posts about CK and AGar, you keep saying they are both town, and that you don't see any scumminess there, but if AGar flipped scum, you would look at CK. Are you protecting AGar here, and if he ends up dead, trying to make sure suspicion turns to CK and not you?

Also, about how you play in other games...I know in Castlevania you were stuck to Tans like I was stuck to CT, and you never waffled. You even took it into dead chat. You sometimes asked other people questions, but you never went back and forth like you're doing in this game. Your posts were much more confident and firm as well.

[jenniwren]

Go back and READ it...Vezo was claiming things based on the show, i.e., that he thought Ethan was the kid with the dog which is why he outed Dekes.

Nice misrep yet again. He said he

didn't

out Dekes because he thought Ethan was the kid with the dog. Nevermind the fact that the whole charade was an attempt to get a mislynch through.

@Dekes

I'm not sure how Adem fits into the scenario. I still don't know what to make of the claim. If he's Michael, I could see him knowing who Walt is but not the other way around in some twisted scheme of things. Like I said, I don't have a solid read on Adem because of his game throughout being on either side of things quite often.

Jenni, stop metaing Dekes now, because you're fucking it up already.

If you read what I wrote, I didn't understand exactly what he was saying, because he had already outed Dekes as Ethan when he said that he thought he was the kid with the dog; I asked him a question for clarification because I was confused. Vezo clarified it in his next post. I didn't misrep him, I asked him a question to make sure I understood him.

Dekes brought up his meta, not me.

[jenniwren]

"inside role-related information" I believe you called it when referring to BC? So, you don't know BC's alignment and expect us all to accept your assessment that he is probably town, but when someone else is put in the SAME situation, you think they are scum? How does that work exactly?

The situation isn't the same.
In your situation, I am already suspecting both you and and then it goes "ademisk is about to get lynched and squeals "Jenni, save me please!""
In my situation, I point out that BC is a bad lynch until further notice, and then review my position based on personal knowledge to think he is town.

I'm not 100% confirming people and I don't suddenly suspect extra people because they tell me I'm on the wrong lynch.

I see what you're saying. I'm not 100% confirming Adem, either. I don't know his alignment, but I between him and having my information and my knowing what I know about my own role, I have a good reason to believe he isn't scum. Adem was my second suspect on D1, after BC. I was ready for him to be lynched...in fact, I started his wagon. The irony that he revealed himself as Michael does not escape me.

@AGar: Dekes brought up his play in Castlevania by saying he used parenthesis there. If he is going to use another game as defense, I have the right to say he's not playing the same in that game as he is in this one.

[jenniwren]

@AGar: Dekes brought up his play in Castlevania by saying he used parenthesis there. If he is going to use another game as defense, I have the right to say he's not playing the same in that game as he is in this one.

So he never once used parenthesis there? If that's not your point, you shouldn't have brought up meta. Quite. Fucking. Simple.

Please don't talk to me like I'm stupid.

Also, why are you attacking me because I'm attacking Dekes?

[jenniwren]

If you READ what I wrote about the parenthesis, it's in a post where I was explaining my thought processes for interpreting a comment he made. Everyone uses parenthesis, but the way he used them in that sentence was as a qualifier and what was in them was an afterthought. Because I look at stuff like that, I interpreted his comment a certain way.

And I only know him as town, and I can compare his play here and say it isn't like his play there, because it isn't. He brought up his play in Castlevania, and I made the comment that he's not playing the same way in this game.

I'm not making up arguments about him, I just pointed out to him that his play is different, AND IT IS.

@Dramonic: Lol? Just because the word "town" was not in FaraSera's or HH's flavor doesn't mean it's not in Adem's. He didn't claim powers aside from protecting me, so why say he did?

[jenniwren]

If there are three scum, and you're right and Adem ends up being one (he won't), the game won't end with his lynch.

Since he's town, his lynch will mean there are 6 town and 2 scum left. I will probably be killed tonight, along with someone else (whoever the vig/sk) picks, and then it will be night again, and two more will be killed. The odds of this ending well for town will be very low unless we indeed have a vig and not an SK.


@AGar: DO NOT TALK TO ME LIKE I AM STUPID. You are being a complete jerk.

I didn't BASE my case on his meta. I made a comment that the playstyle was different. My case is based on what he has done in this game. If I had based my case on the fact that he is playing differently, you would have a point. But I DIDN'T. He brought up the other game, and since he pointed to his play there, I pointed out that his play there was different. It's not part of my case on him...it was a response to him.

@Dram, you are so wrong.

[jenniwren]

The odds are higher a SK would kill two town in a row because there are more town than scum, and he wouldn't necessarily know who is who.

[jenniwren]

Sawyer and Sayid make total sense as Vig.

Jack makes sense as doctor.
Sun makes sense as Nurse. (She knew all about the herbs/holisitic meds and helped Jack in surgery.)
Hurley makes sense as name cop.

How the hell do Michael and Walt make sense as anything other than a protective/protected role?

[jenniwren]

He only cared about protecting his son.


@Dram: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walt_Lloyd

He was a ten-year-old child who had lost his mother to cancer or something. She kept him away from his dad, and his step-dad didn't want him after his mom died. Michael flew to Australia to get him, and they barely knew each other. Michael was desperate to protect his child. As the only child left amongst the survivors, they were all protective of him.

[jenniwren]

BC have you even seen the show? Walt was a little kid. Even Sawyer liked him and took a freaking bullet trying to protect him.

[jenniwren]

No one asked you to? On the show, Sawyer didn't really like many people. I was just saying that on the show, Walt was someone he cared about.

[jenniwren]

Nice link BC.

Yeah, Michael had a one-track mind.

[jenniwren]

Yes it was? On the raft? Season Finale?

[jenniwren]

He played games with Locke and Hurley, spent a lot of time with Sun while Michael was being helpful, and was basically just a kid. We're not supposed to talk about S2, but if you saw it, think about how everyone acted when they found out he was gone.

[jenniwren]

Why are you so anxious to get into the night?

[jenniwren]

I know you believe you're right, but I know that you're wrong, so what happens when he flips town?

[jenniwren]

My role is Town Beloved Prince, and I breadcrumbed it in ISO 3.

If I get killed, you will spend the next day mourning and burying me.

Walt is a child (with some psychic type powers), and the Others do kidnap him at gunpoint, but not his dad, and everyone is pretty much devastated when they find out. He's just a kid, not a villain (his dad ends up doing some crazy things, though).

[jenniwren]

BP can be scum.

My PM is in blue, and my role is "Town Beloved Prince." My only ability is that if I die, you guys lose a day and that means that there will be two nights back to back.

BC hasn't dismantled anyone's defense. AT ALL.

You're wrong about me; you've been wrong about me the whole time. You're also wrong about Adem.



@BC: How is Chess refusing to hammer town ANTI-town?

[jenniwren]

No, he hasn't. All he has said is stuff like no one gives a shit about Walt, which is BULLSHIT, and anyone who has

seen

the show knows that.

Think about it...they are survivors of a plane crash and he is the only child. All around them is death and destruction, and there is one kid. Adults protect kids; think about how people work--a kid gets killed somewhere, or something bad happens, and people get upset, no matter if they knew the kid or not. In survival cultures, kids are precious. It's basic psychology, and it works like that in the show. In S2, they mourn the loss of Walt.

I'm not scum, and no matter how many times YOU say it, you can't change the fact that my PM says otherwise.

[jenniwren]

He didn't want to leave the island. There is a reason for that, and unless you've seen all six seasons, AND the epilogue that is part of the season six DVDs, I can't explain it.

[jenniwren]

By the way, he lit a raft on fire. He didn't kill anyone. Everyone else on that island? They had all killed someone or been responsible for someone's death.

[jenniwren]

Both kids are...

Remember the finale? Rousseau kidnaps Aaron because she thinks the Others will give her child back, but the Others don't want him--they want Walt.

[jenniwren]

Chess...Adem is TOWN. Why do you want to hammer him?

And who is the third pair? Claire and Ethan? Not really a pair...

BC...right now, we're assuming that it's two scum and seven town. You kill the guard in a lynch and then kill the BP at night, that means 5 town and 2 scum left; the scum kill another town, so it's four town and two scum when D3 dawns, and then you immediately get another night with no day, and the scum kill another town (and you don't kill), then it's three town and two scum on D4. (And gg if one of the ones left is Vezo.)

Lynch Dekes today, and if you simply MUST, then vig Adem tonight, and take the chance THAT way. He will flip guard, and he'll be able to protect me through the night, and that way town doesn't lose a freaking day. If you're town, this should make sense to you, because if I'm lying, you'll know it when Adem flips you can just lynch me tomorrow and town will win.

[jenniwren]

/bang head on desk 500x.

At least two people are happy about this. GG scum.

Town...yeah. /head desk.

[jenniwren]

Dekes...I wasn't tunneling you. I spent all of one page arguing with you. You were guilty and I knew it. Tunneling: what I did to CT and what you did to Tans in Castlevania.
Jason...don't feel too bad about getting shot despite the Doc claim. I got shot by the mafia AND the vigs after a BP claim and a guard flip.
Reck...I know you didn't plan this, but I thought it was freaking hilarious and ironic that Adem was my primary suspect on D1. Why? Not just because he was Michael, but because Walt was also suspicious of his dad at first.
Dram...no hard feelings on my part; a) you didn't know the show's flavor and were misled by BC; b) it was karma for me after what I did to someone in not one but two games. SO...yeah. My time was coming with that one.