Newbie 1116 -- Game Over

[Grimmjow]

/confirm

[Grimmjow]

Can everyone post their time zones, just so I'll have a feel of what time of day I can be expecting posts from people?
Also, how often do you think you'll be able to post in the game, or how often do you expect to be posting?

To answer my own questions, I'm EST -5.
Also, as I don't really have much of a life right now, I can be expect to post at least once per day (not necessarily including weekends, as I work almost all weekend long), but probably more than that if the activity of the game is pretty high.

[Grimmjow]

Hey, JJ! Glad you're in the game! Good to see you again!

Also, I don't think voting BEFORE the game starts actually counts...

[Grimmjow]

cymru96, you should get an avatar, since it make it easier to tell which post came from whom.

[Grimmjow]

Also, Yonzy's /confirm makes it 7. It's about time for this shiznit to begin.

[Grimmjow]

Vote: Yonzy

because of his bullshit reasoning.

[Grimmjow]

Wow, very quick with the votecount, NS. I like it.

Also, I hate RVS, because I feel it doesn't really do anything to further the game. On top of that, no one else really has posted anything since the game started, and your logic is bullshit, I think. So, there's my rationale for the vote. I'll likely unvote as soon as more people are playing the game.

Also, one more time, since some people have confirmed, but didn't post anything else, please post your timezones.

[Grimmjow]

Soooo, we're a day into it and only 3 people really have posted... awesome. I hate how slow this game is sometimes.

[Grimmjow]

Ok, so bigAl votes cymru, stating it's not random, but doesn't give any reasons. He also implies that he's town, but not to be sucked in, which the goal of all that is 1) to make people think he's town and 2) to make people think he's even more town by saying "But don't believe it just because I tell you I'm town," which frankly I think is bullshit.

Can anyone else confirm that the servers were down yesterday? They worked fine for me.

@Al, why is your vote on cymru not random?

I'm going to keep my vote on Yonzy for now, but

FoS: bigAl

[Grimmjow]

@cy: if you're trying to find an avatar, go to google and type in what you want your avatar to be and then just put "avatar" after it. The images that come up should be small enough file size.

[Grimmjow]

Unvote

I'm doing that because there isn't any real sound reasoning for me to keep my vote there. Also, as for my

FoS

, I'm going to say that it's not so much a FoS now, but I'm going to keep watch on bigAl. Perhaps it's just me, but I'm more suspicious of the IC in a game until (s)he shows me clear evidence that they are not scum. That's mostly because they do have the most experience, and therefore they'd know how to cover their tracks better.

And thanks Eyes for the website info. I was just curious if anyone else was having problems with the site, or if there is legitimate reason to be suspicious of Al because of his supposed website problems. I can see now that he very well might have had issues, so I'm not going to run with that one.

@JJ: I'd too like to know why you voted me. Is it RVS, suspicion, or what?

[Grimmjow]

EBWOP:Seems like she answered me.

However, as I stated, my vote on Yonzy wasn't random. I think his reasoning for the vote was bullshit, and so I called him out on it. As for Al's FoS, I didn't have anything that I blatantly disagreed with. It was just a "huh..." thing, if that makes sense. It wasn't that I disagreed, but it seemed suspicious to me.

[Grimmjow]

@Grimmjow ... Do you have some other reason to be defending Workdawg so harshly I wonder?

Uhm, where was I defending Workdawg exactly...? I don't think I ever even mentioned his name.

Grimmjow, I don't think you understand what RVS is.

How can you call a vote random when you give a reason behind your vote? RANDOM: proceeding, made, or occurring without definite aim, reason, or pattern. HEY, IF YOU LIST A REASON, THAT'S NOT RANDOM KTHNX

[Grimmjow]

Even if he voted for someone else without giving reason I woul've voted for him 'cause you can't really say it's not random without giving reason.

Actually, you can, which is exactly what he did XD

Saying that, I don't think he's scum but I'm not gonna unvote cause I havent seen anyone who looks scummy and leaving my vote blank after previously voting looks suspicious.

Your unvote doesn't count unless it's bolded. Don't forget that. Also, if you're going to vote or unvote, put it on a separate line so the mod can more easily see it.

Also, let's try and tone down the quote-walling. It makes it easier to read, especially if it's on a phone like Dawg stated he was doing and I do fairly frequently.

[Grimmjow]

Oops, read that wrong. I must've read over the "not" part. My bad. Sleepy Grimm is sleepy.

[Grimmjow]

Ok, quick phone post.

@VE: you said you

know

me? How exactly do you know me? Because I've never played in a game with you, we haven't spoke on the forum, and I've only played in one game, which I lost, so I hardly can see where you

know

me.
Also, don't take anything I say as being angry right now. Trust me, if I get angry in a game, you'll know it. Ask JJ.

I'm out of the apartment right now, so I'll update more later with my current reads, etc. But I'm still checking the thread when someone posts.

[Grimmjow]

Ok, so I just got back from a winery (WHEEEEEE) so now may not be the best time to post stuff, because my thoughts are not exactly coherent. However, I will say this: I do not in the slightest believe that was just a typo. I am not going to vote him right now because I don't want mafia coming along and hammering him just in case he is actually town, but I do NOT believe that.

@cy: reasons why I should think otherwise, GO!

[Grimmjow]

So, I'd like to throw this question out there, then: what is your read on people thus far?

As for myself, the only person I have marked off my list thus far (though that in no way means I'm not still going to be watching) is VE. I can see where Al is playing the town IC role, but at the same time, I'm still suspicious of him because of his IC role, and based on this:

With 7 townies and 2 mafia, it would generally be very bad for the mafia if they jump on a lynch real quick at this point.

I could see this as not only coaching town players into something to watch for, but I can also see this as coaching a newb-scum buddy into not doing something.

Everyone else is essentially a null tell for me thus far, with, perhaps, the exception of cy, but that's based off his "prove I'm scum" comment, which, more and more, I can see as just a typo (though I still can't really see HOW one would miss an entire word like that). But I don't think scum would be that stupid. However, I can see how it could have been a subconscious slip. JJ thus far has been null for me as well, but I'm going to be even more critical of her because in my last game, she replaced in as scum and they ended up winning. I'm not willing to place my vote on anyone thus far, however. Also, in my last game, two townies were lynched because of lack of participation (as JJ can back up), and I really don't want that to happen here. So those out there that are not really participating, please do.

AND FOR ALL YOU NOOBS OUT THERE THAT DON'T KNOW BETTER (I'm a noob too, but I learned this in my last game), VOTING SOMEONE DOES ADD PRESSURE, BUT PLEASE, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, DON'T HAMMER SOMEONE OR PUT SOMEONE TOO CLOSE TO A LYNCH JUST BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT PARTICIPATING. Perhaps the best thing to do there is to continue to pressure that person, and watch out for lurking (because if they're lurking frequently, I totally see that as scummy).

[Grimmjow]

Besides, if I were mafia, I would have gone over that with my partner pre-game.

That is, of course, assuming your buddy saw the thread pre-game.
My first actual game (that I ended up replacing out of due to IRL circumstances, AND IS CURRENTLY OVER) I didn't get a chance to read the qt and discuss things with my buddy beforehand. Just sayin'.

[Grimmjow]

Just popping in real quick to post what I found funny (hahah, not "huh" funny)

Am I some kind of Mafia prodigy with impeccable reads?

Bullshit.

Anyway, I am going to reserve my judgements until more people post on their reads. I'm curious to see what everyone things. I already have some comments that I might make towards VE's post(s), but I would like to see a few more respond first.

[Grimmjow]

EBWOP: "see what everyone thinks."

[Grimmjow]

Wow I have missed out on quite a bit in the past like 24 hours. I'll catch up in a bit, since I just woke up and haven't even had my first cup of coffee.

[Grimmjow]

Ok, wow, lot's to catch up on.

Second, it seemed obvious to me at the time why bigAl didn't give a reason and claimed his vote was not random.

Oh did you? I don't see anywhere that you gave any indication that was the case. I'm certainly not saying that you didn't, but you gave no idication that you did. Anyone could go back and say "Oh, I knew that reason" and there be no way to prove it. That's beside the point, but I'm just sayin'.

If you did NOT believe this was a typo you have absolutely no reason not to vote him AND put him at L-2 to at the very least turn the heat up on him and get more than a couple of sentences in response.

Ok, so perhaps I didn't state it well enough, but essentially what I was trying to say here is that even though I didn't believe that it wasn't a slip, I didn't have any more evidence to support a scum theory at the time. And as VE stated:

This post has been answered for by cymru96. He claims that it was a typo and that he hadn't meant to imply that he was actually trying to prove that he was scum. Fair enough. I can only assume that when he says he didn't mean to type it, he didn't mean to.

I'm not willing to say "I can only assume" this was the case, because, as I stated, I don't think this is the case, however there's nothing else to go on here and nothing left to say.

And, as far as that goes, I'm not willing to jump the gun and "assume" he's telling the truth, especially with such a blatant statement as "prove I'm scum." And with VE's assumption here, my "VE is town" has changed to null, and I'm going to keep watch on him.

because he got lynched in his last game trying to scumhunt, which would amply explain his paranoia of appearing too scummy.

I'm trying to show that I'm not mafia 'cause in the only other game I played I was just trying to find mafia and got lynched in less than an hour.

As far as I can see, he's not been in any other games on the site. Granted, yes, he may have been in games on another site, but as far as this one goes, he's not been in any other games. So I'm not necessarily willing to buy this one yet.

Lynch all liars. Isn't that the mantra? I'm not calling cy a liar, persay, but I don't have evidence that he's not lying.

With that being said:

@cy: can you link us to that game where you got "lynched in less than an hour"?

This post is getting long, so I'm going to break it up. I'll post more in a bit.

[Grimmjow]

Now I do find the back and forth between VE and JJ to be interesting (#105-110). I find it interesting that we have put so much emphasis on a "slip" by cy (granted, it was a blatant "I'm scum" slip) and yet we're not really questioning VE's MULTIPLE oversights/misinterpretations/exaggerations/whatever. JJ seems to be making sure to clarify everything he says about her, which is legitimate. VE calls JJ out in post #110 saying:

I find interesting is that page 5 is going to be almost exclusively dedicated to my reads-post, and the only comment you had on any of it was clarification on you, someone I only gave a limited, non-analyzed read on in that post. This can be viewed a couple of different ways...The most obvious is that you're scum and you don't want ANY suspicion cast on you, no matter how little or inconsequential. The other (and the one I'm more inclined to believe) is that your posts have been used in the past by scum out of context and you're overly concerned about being understood entirely.

However, she does go back and clarify:

Sorry I missed this earlier. I was just posting on a break during work so I didn't have much time... but I am concerned about your posts about

anyone

being clear. I just didn't see where you got your vote count.

This statement here puts me at a town read for JJ. Had she simply stated that she did want to make sure that posts about

her

were clear, then I'd have an issue here, but she stated that she was concerned about

anyone's

misrepresentation.

As far as that goes, VE's multiple oversights/misinterpretations/exaggerations/whatever makes me even LESS inclined to believe him to be town.

Ok, next topic.

I haven't played a game here in a while (before quicktopic was officially introduced), so I don't know if mafia members can see (but not post in) the qt thread during the day, but I assume they can. Meaning that even if it wasn't a two way conversation, I would have had time to post some advice at least. If I were mafia that is.

This is true. The qt is available during the day phase to view. However, just because the IC/SE posts things in there and the noob sees it later does not necessarily mean that the IC/SE remembered/had time to post EVERYTHING. I admit this is breaching into the WIFOM territory (I think I'm using that right), but, as a friendly SE/my boyfriend once stated to me, WIFOM is scum's greatest weapon.

This statement did catch my attention, however:

True... but an experienced mafia is less likely to slip-up than a new mafia, which means that a player's experience does matter when considering how suspicious someone is. But yes, we shouldn't assume that there will be an experience player in the mafia group.

That rings more town IC than scum IC to me. If he were scum, he wouldn't want to be drawing attention to his IC-ness as a means of covering stuff up. So I'm willing to say he's a town read for now, but, again, I'm definitely keeping an eye on him simply because he's an IC. I'll be more suspicious, but I'll try to give it a fair go.

Post number 2, concluded. Post 3 will be up soon.

[Grimmjow]

So I've only got time for one more for now, so I just wanted to say one thing, because this bugged the shit outta me.

And then there's the game with me - sure, I was mafia but that alone is no reason to think I am in this game. To me some of these things seem either paranoid or contrived.

JJ thus far has been null for me as well, but I'm going to be even more critical of her because in my last game, she replaced in as scum and they ended up winning.

Ok, so here's the deal. WHERE DID I SAY I THOUGHT YOU WERE SCUM JUST BECAUSE OF OUR LAST GAME? Nowhere. Period. I didn't say that I thought you were scum. I just said that I was going to be more critical of you. And you wanna know why? It's called META, I'm sure you've heard of it. Hell, noob-me has heard of it. And, yes, I may not have a lot of meta on you, but I've got enough that I can pick out a couple of things, maybe. So, if you're so concerned with other people being misrepresented, why misrepresent me? But, like with VE, either and oversight, or blatant attempt to make someone else look scummy to take eyes off you. I'm just sayin'.

That's it for now. I'm going job hunting (yay...) and I've got to work tonight (HATE MY LIFE). So I'll likely not be able to post more until tomorrow. But we'll see.

[Grimmjow]

just to throw this out there- I've been watching without saying anything.
I don't know what else to do without the inactive people sapeaking their mind.

And just out of the shower long enough to see this... Lurking, perhaps?

@VE: I'll get to your post just now later, as that will take much more time than I currently have.

[Grimmjow]

Just got off work, was getting ready to head to bed and was going to update tomorrow, but this caught my eye, so I figured I'd answer it now, since it's such a short answer.

Grimm said a couple times that VE is consistently missing things ("oversights/misinterpretations/exaggerations/whatever") but I haven't really noticed that, and he didn't provide examples...

@Grimm

- could you provide some examples of where you are seeing this?

I stated this was the case in his post 104 and it was discussed between 105 and 110 with VE and JJ. My point was that we have been paying attention to cy for his "I'm scum" statement, but we were not as concerned when he misrepresented things in VE's 104.

[Grimmjow]

Everything else I'll get to tomorrow, since I'm going to head to bed.

[Grimmjow]

Look at the cute little official looking header he posted complete with bold red lettering of my name to instantly imply that I'm scum. How quaint.

I apologize in advance about the length of this. But a lengthy case on me requires a lengthy rebuttal.

I even proceeded to explain to him why I saw what he was doing as a defense of Workdawg, and he never acknowledges it. Simply doesn't mention it again.

You know what's funny to me? In both of my games, a noob has been accused of the chainsaw defence.

Ok, the part of this that really bugs the shit outta me is where you say "he never acknowledges it." So when I say flat out that I didn't even mention his name, how is that not acknowledging people thinking that I'm defending him? Also, you comment on me being "defensive," yet I have explained that I am just abrasive like this in a game. And even further than that,

you

, sir, even turned around and said:

Why I said you were defending Workdawg, I guess I should've said you were PRESSURING Yonzy.

So why should I even have to acknowledge your accusation that I was defending Workdawg when you yourself said that's not what you meant? So are you trying to misrepresent me now? Or is this just another one of your oversights?

As far as your cute little exhibit B goes, you say I got ultra-defensive? No, this was just mildly defensive. And why was I defensive? Because I misread something and thought you were trying to point the blame at me and that you were trying to get credit behind your statement by saying that you know me. My freakin' bad. The way it read to me was "nonsense reason like everyone else...see red wine

and because I know you

." I was not reading it as red wine being an example of nonsense reasoning and the "I know you" that JJ pulled out as an example as well. Again, my freakin' bad.

I really feel like I should have a monocle when reading through this guy's post here. And a mustache.

EXHIBIT C (DUN DUN DUUUUUUUUN)
Wow, big problem with me not really having any reads? Big friggin problem with the entire game having gone less than 80 posts and me not having any real solid reads? I told everyone flat out that YOU were on my town list. Granted, I didn't explain why, but is that really any different than Al voting Cy but not stating a reason? But really, isn't a VOTE on someone more intense than saying that you think someone's town? And I even stated about bigAl how I was suspicious of him, and even gave a reason why I was suspicious of him. And then I turned around and stated, which goes along with my friggin reads, that I pretty much was null on everyone else, but that I have a bit of meta on JJ so I was going to keep watch on her.

Now, keep in mind this: less than 80 posts into the game, and you even stated later in the game, no much earlier than this post here, that there were only 4 real players in the game. Ok, I talked about you (1), I talked about bigAl (2), I spoke about JJ (3), and I'm the one posting this (4). Hell, I even talked about cy a bit, which goes outside of that "only 4 real players" box.

And as far as giving helpful advice to noobs goes, I didn't want to loose town players based on inactivity/lack of content. Which is what happened twice in my last game. Which is what I stated. Which was caused by noobs jumping on a bandwagon without thinking because players were not active. Which I stated. You've REALLY got a problem with me trying to be helpful to the town?

For your "D," you're whole thing here is that I'm hiding behind other peoples' analyses because I'm too afraid to give an opinion on someone? Except that I've given my reads on people, and when I have posted with any real content, I post my opinions of people. So this is complete "Bullshit indeed."

Ok, rude.

...even requests a link to a previous game to prove an absolutely inane point.

Inane? Bringing out the big boy vocabulary here, no? And how is this inane if I cleary stated in the exact same post that "lynch all liars" being the usual mantra, I didn't have evidence one way or the other. So, I requested that he give me evidence that he wasn't lying. And, hey, guess what, he didn't.

And oh how fun it really is to type MULTIPLE oversights/misinterpretations/exaggerations/whatever. Except that I copy and pasted. And where I was trying to say that you had your *COPY/PASTE* in the same post, which JJ made sure you clarified, and there was 6 posts worth of clarification and then turning around and pointing blame at JJ, who was making sure you were not misrepresenting things.

Jesus, understand this. I'M NOT GETTING SUPER-DEFENSIVE WHEN I TYPE IN CAPS, YOU FRIGGIN IDIOT. Except I was that time. I've stated PLENTY of times that that's just me. And as far as "defensive about Miss JJ 'misrepresenting' him" goes, just like when JJ wanted you to clarify things about your post so she didn't get misrepresented, I was doing the same. I don't want people in this game to make a move based on inacurate information. So yeah.

As far as the "clarifying" things about you goes, your "multiple" included not only stating the votes wrong on me, but also not even being able to see that JJ had in fact voted me.

Ok. I want to take a step back here for just a second.

-You were making statements about how close I was to being lynched, when that wasn't the case.
-Now, you're writing a monologue of a case on me based on faulty reasoning and false evidence.

Both are about lynching me. Why are you so trigger happy to lynch me, especially based on all this poor logic and obvious inability to

count

.

Now back to this long headache...

promise to clarify his "MULTIPLE oversights/misinterpretations/exaggerations/whatever" comment. Yet, he doesn't.

Except in my very next post I did. Your case on how I promised to clarify but didn't, yet in my very next post I did, is utter bullshit and a blatant lie.

That my ONE misreading of the thread

Except that in this you didn't just misread the thread, you also misinterpreted the the thread not on one thing (the vote count on me), but on two (JJ's lack of but actual vote). And honestly, I don't see how you could have miscounted the votes. Just quickly scrolling through (and I encourage everyone to do this; it's fun; try it on your own name too and see what happens) I counted ONE time that my name was even in bold since the game started. And that's going from your 104 post where you miscounted the votes. And I didn't even take the time to read anything before then while scrolling; I just looked for my name in bold, which is how votes are counted.

And he makes one more cute little comment/blatant misinterpretation/LIE:

and is more scummy than, as you percieve him, a lying cymru. Fine.

Please, please, I beg you, tell me where I said I saw you more scummy that cy? Please do that for me. Because I don't recall doing it, and I can't find it in the thread.

So, here's a fun little problem we have here...

VOTE: VisceraEyes

for his repeated attempt at misrepresenting the facts, ignoring facts, and blatantly lying about facts.

[Grimmjow]

Actually, I took a step back and read through both VE's and my own post again, and I can see what Workdawg is saying. I'm not, however, willing to say that VE is town. I can understand how it would look from an outside perspective, but I still disagree wholeheartedly with VE's accusations of me and I've stated my case and I still think he's scum. I'm not changing my vote, but as this is essentially getting us no where, I say we let it lie but keep an eye on one another, since I certainly will be keeping an eye on VE.

I do, however, want to make one comment before I let this sit on the back burner.

And I hope everyone else sees your vote for what it is, a vote on me because I voted on you. Until I brought any attention to bear on you, you've considered me town. Now that the light shines your way, people can see you for what you are. Don't get mad at me about it.

Actually, this is bullshit. I started leaning less town on you when I was posting my thoughts on page 6. I started seeing you in a scummier light then, and with your ridiculous case on me, and then going back an analyzing it, I can see pretty clearly where you are scum. But, like I said, this isn't going to get us anywhere, really.

Unless, of course, the rest of the town chimes in with their reads on the situation, which is what I'm really hoping to happen, since their input will make this issue more valid, rather than just bickering back and forth between the two of us.

[Grimmjow]

Ah, and I just realized that I never did answer Workdawg's question:

What is everyone's experience with mafia? How many games have you played? Here or elsewhere, online, IRL? etc.

This is my second game, really. My first I played less than a day and had to replace out of it because of IRL circumstances. IRL, I've played once with my boyfriend and a couple of friends, but I was drunk as hell when I played, and don't really remember how they turned out XD

[Grimmjow]

Uhm, actually, I've given you examples as to why your reasoning was flawed. Or are you simply overlooking them? Everything you have stated I've rebutted with examples of why you were wrong. Shall I restate my entire friggin post again in layman's terms?

[Grimmjow]

I apologize for talking down to you. That was wrong of me. I felt as though you were continuing to overlook my statements, so I got upset, and that was not right. So I am sorry.

As far as you being comfortable with where your vote is, I am as well.

I would also like to point out that VE had no suspicion of me at all until JJ placed her vote on me, then, pretty soon afterwards, he turned around and started analyzing my posts and providing faulty logic about my posts. Just something I noticed...

[Grimmjow]

Wow, uhm, yeah. I think my brain just died a bit after reading VE's last post. So I'm definitely keeping my vote there. Also, because, as Workdawg stated (which I had completely missed):

(In fact, I wonder if post 83 was him trying to make sure his scum-buddy zihark wasn't lynched too early)

Good catch, WD.

[Grimmjow]

I just want to point out that I said pretty much the same thing as VE in #91 and then Grimmjow(!) says it also in #100. But just above, he calls it a good catch. WTF? This doesn't make any sense to me.

Where exactly did VE and I both say that VE was potentially SPECIFICALLY defending Zihark? That's what I was saying was a good catch. Not the lurker point, but the specific instance of

PLEASE DO NOT PUT ANY MORE PRESSURE VOTES ON ZIHARK UNTIL HE POSTS SOME MORE!

. THAT is what I was saying was a good catch.

Day 1. My efforts are netting town nothing at this point. I'm going to vote for whomever the rest of town decides is the best candidate.

Is this not a scum tactic in some games? Vote with the town in hopes the town votes for a townie?

I hope it's at least an inactive, but if the town decides that my efforts in scumhunting, encouraging discussion, using REASON to back up my statements and keeping an open mind should be considered scummy, then Mafia has ALREADY won.

Uhm, just because YOU specifically are considered scummy (and I think you are scum), does not mean that mafia has won. That too sounds like a scummy statement. Kind of a "Hey, I'm working my ass of for the town, don't be mad at me if scum wins" type statement.

If I survive tonight, I'm perfectly willing to try again tomorrow.

So you're assuming immediately that you'll survive the Day?

I think it's funny how when I pointed out that Grimm was being a condescending jerk, he IMMEDIATELY apologizes when no one is on his side

Whoa whoa whoa. I didn't apologize because no one was on my side. I apologized because you were right; I was being an asshole and that's wrong.

...but the very SECOND someone else calls me to the stand, it's back to 'Oh man, what an idiot.'

And where exactly did I switch from "I'm sorry, you're right, I shouldn't be a jackass" to "You're an idiot"? I have tried not to make any more condescending statements since that time. If you are referring to:

I think my brain just died a bit after reading VE's last post.

what I was saying there is that I was completely taken aback from you being all on my case and voting for me (which is fine), and then suddenly doing a 180 without any real provocation, especially since I had turned around and apologized to you, and after such a short amount of time from you posting your case against me.

[Grimmjow]

Look, I'm not saying argue with me. What I am saying is that basically throwing your hands up in the air gets the town and this game nowhere. So how about we not argue and instead we actually just try to play the game?

Now, that being said, I'd like to point out, once again, that several people are still inactive, and this isn't getting us anywhere. Assuming that the 4 or 5 of us that are being active are town, that means we're essentially turning on one another while scum sits back. I'm keeping my vote on VE, but let's keep an eye out as well. Also, I'm interested to know what the replacement is going to say.

[Grimmjow]

Look, I'm not saying argue with me. What I am saying is that basically throwing your hands up in the air gets the town and this game nowhere. So how about we not argue and instead we actually just try to play the game?

Now, that being said, I'd like to point out, once again, that several people are still inactive, and this isn't getting us anywhere. Assuming that the 4 or 5 of us that are being active are town, that means we're essentially turning on one another while scum sits back. I'm keeping my vote on VE, but let's keep an eye out as well. Also, I'm interested to know what the replacement is going to say.

Just take your vote off me already...we both know you're going to do it. You just didn't wanna do it first. And now you don't have to. So do it.

Ok, the only real thing that I have to say here is this: wait, what?! First, you say you're not going to do any more scum-hunting, and when I call that out as being scummy, you jump back in the game and are like "no, screw that, I'm going to play, but I'm going to ignore everything Grimm has to say" and then you respond to one of my posts by saying "just take your vote off me." Uhm, no, that's not how this works. You, sir, are making way too many contradictions here. 1)Tired of people ignoring you, so you stop scum-hunting; 2)Called out on being scummy because of previous, so you jump back in the game; 3)Saying your going to ignore me, yet post a reply to something I say; 4)Tell me that I'm going to unvote you for whatever reason when I've stated many times since my wall-o-text that I find you increasingly scummy.
Nope, not playing that game. My vote stays on you, sir.

[Grimmjow]

Day 1. My efforts are netting town nothing at this point. I'm going to vote for whomever the rest of town decides is the best candidate. I hope it's at least an inactive, but if the town decides that my efforts in scumhunting, encouraging discussion, using REASON to back up my statements and keeping an open mind should be considered scummy, then Mafia has ALREADY won. If I survive tonight, I'm perfectly willing to try again tomorrow.

I'd like to point out that if I'm wrong about something, that would NOT make me scum. Being Mafia would make me scum. Being wrong just makes me wrong. If I'm wrong, tell me I'm wrong. Don't make fun of me. Don't poke fun at my posts because I took time and effort to make them pretty. I think it's funny how when I pointed out that Grimm was being a condescending jerk, he IMMEDIATELY apologizes when no one is on his side...but the very SECOND someone else calls me to the stand, it's back to 'Oh man, what an idiot.'

Typically shit like this doesn't bother me, but I feel like I've been playing the best town game of my LIFE. Clearly I'm missing something.

I for one believe VE. This post confirms it more for me, particularly the second paragraph there.

So, may I ask you, are you ignoring then the fact that I rebutted a couple things he said in that second paragraph? Namely, apologizing because no one's on my side, and then turning into an asshole again as soon as someone else is suspicious of him?

I will say that I do agree with him. Being wrong doesn't make him scum. However, even after having been told where he was wrong, he refused to see it, and I can only surmise that he is very headstrong and refuses to listen to reason or that he's scum trying to cover it up and point the blame at someone else, which, as I have said, I believe he is scum, especially based on how he has played since his and my confrontation.

[Grimmjow]

The only thing that I can honestly say that I thoroughly disagree with is the "PAINFULLY obvious" part. I didn't see anything in your last few posts as a joke. I thought perhaps you were still huffing and puffing over my attacks on you, personal or otherwise. And since emotions don't translate over text well, I can't say at all that your jokes were obvious. Just sayin'.

[Grimmjow]

How about this as a compromise. I'll stop saying I think you're scummy just in general conversation as long as you stop saying I'M scummy in general conversation, with the mutual understanding that we just consider the other scummy and we may or may not at any given time have cast a vote to hang the other one to death. Unless we're actually building a post against the other, we'll just treat each other as mutually suspicious <.< >.> <.< townsfolk.

Deal?

And how would this be beneficial to the town, seeing as I think you're scum? Essentially ignoring things you do is not going to help us out at all. Your lynch and scumflip would, however. I'll agree to back off being so fierce against you, and I certainly am going to keep my eye on you, but I'm also going to call out everything that I see as scummy coming from you, such as a post like this one trying to divert attention from yourself. And, I'm keeping my vote where it belongs: on you.

Unless someone else comes out and suddenly is incredibly scummy, I'm keeping my vote there too. That's not to say that I'm not watching out for scumminess from others, because I sure as hell am.

[Grimmjow]

I thought Dickov was supposed to be replacing him...? Oh, geez, this is getting us nowhere -.-

[Grimmjow]

Oh, huh. Didn't know that was the rule...

[Grimmjow]

ok...

I think Grimmjow is scum and he is trying to hide it in the feud with Viscera. He is trying to play it off as Viscera being scum but after the insults it seems that he has no basis and resorts to personal jibes. I think that because of this he is scummy.

Uhm, what? I have no basis? My counterarguments have all had basis. I have either refuted VE's claims with evidence, or, if it was an attack of my playstyle, I have stated where/how that was wrong as well. Hell, I even friggin' apologized for being a dick, because I realized I was being a dick. What the hell? Cy, if you honestly think this, give me examples of why you think this. As in quotes. As in something tangible rather than just "gut" suspicion.

[Grimmjow]

I am not gonna vote for him because I think he and Miss JJ are scum so I stick to JJ.

Also, I'd like to hear what evidence you have that makes you think JJ and I are scum together. Especially seeing how she has her vote on me, and has had it on me nearly the entire game. Out of 16 posts since the game began, she has kept her vote on me for 10 of them. So what reasons do you have for thinking she and I are a scumteam?

[Grimmjow]

Ok, quick post before work, and I'll return tonight with more.

Unless Grimmjow and JJ are playing a really elaborate game I don't think they are a mafia team. I did'nt take the votes into account.
I do think that Miss JJ is scum, I stand by that 'cause everyone was like it's most likely a typo and then she jumps in with it's definately NOT a typo.

For now, I believe we've gotten all we can at the moment from the Cymru slip/typo so I will UNVOTE: Cymru.... however I don't think it should just be dismissed/forgotten completely.

What...?

I don't think Grimmjow is scum based upon reflection and I therefore appologise for the accusation.

Reflection, or the pressure's on you now and you don't have any other card to play? Funny how you so quickly turned around on this. It could just be noob, or it could be noob-scum realizing he doesn't have a leg to stand on and backpeddling.

*Random thought. Only Grimmjow, Miss JJ, VisceraEyes, Me and bigAl have really been in the spotlight so if tucah/wordawg/zihark/dickov is mafia they can just post a nonchelant post and laugh all the way to the night.

This is very true. Except Workdawg has been posting more. And that only leaves 2 people, both of whom are going to be replaced out/are being prodded, so it's unlikely that BOTH of them are scum.

[Grimmjow]

Ok, blue, I'm all for a VE lynch, but seriously, please have a legitimate reason. Having no reason but "go with the flow" make you seem very scummy.

[Grimmjow]

Wait, what? Have you even read the thread?

[Grimmjow]

You have a responsibility to read it, dood.

[Grimmjow]

VOTE: Zihark for having one post so far. I'm a late-addition and have more posts than a few people and I needz moar dataz. ^^

hahah there it it is he voted for the person i subed for who is confirmed town to me so there VOTE: VisceraEyes

Confirmed town? What? Where was Zihark/are you confirmed as town? And this vote was 189 posts back. WTF? Are you even actually playing the game?

[Grimmjow]

Ok, assuming you are town, just because he voted you does not make him scum. Town can make mistakes too. And random voting, yes, you can do it, but it does NOTHING to help the town.

[Grimmjow]

That. Made. No. Sense. What. The. Hell. Are. You. Talking. About.

[Grimmjow]

WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?!?!? I HAVE BEEN ATTACKING HIM THE WHOLE GAME. AND HE HAS BEEN ATTACKING ME. MY VOTE IS ON HIM RIGHT NOW AND HE HAS BEEN VOTING FOR ME AS WELL. HOW DOES THIS MAKE ANY SENSE?

@Mod: Can we PLEASE either get a modkill or a replacement for this guy? He's obviously not playing the game and is just dicking around.

[Grimmjow]

Seriously, have you read the thread? If so, then you'd know that VE and I have been attacking each other, cy had his "I'm scum" slip, and several other things, and you should have some reads.

[Grimmjow]

@Tomie
Thank goodness for you child...I can't tell you what a relief it is that you're actually helping and not just sitting there soaking up hours-until-replacement.

This was the first thing I said when I viewed the thread this morning too XD I looked at my boyfriend and said "Thank god! Someone that is actually playing replaced in."

Now, let's get the game going.

After I get back from work, that is :/

[Grimmjow]

(as he's cute, though it will never work out due to obv details , and this personality doesn't fit that)

Just a random side note, wtf does this mean?

[Grimmjow]

Nah, we all are allowed to freak out. The only problem I have is you complete 180 immediately after having been called out for it.

However, I just was thinking back to my last game and there was a guy in there which we were at each others' throats the whole game, but he ended up flipping town. So I'm willing to accept that VE

MIGHT

be town, but I'm still not taking my vote off him. He has been looking a little more town since he came back into the game, but I'm not willing to make that jump yet. It could very well be that people were suspecting him, so he decided to step back and try to make himself look more town.

Now, I'd also like to note that it's been nearly 72 hours since JJ has posted, stating that she'd post her analysis the following day, which never happened, and that she was online yesterday morning. Just throwing that out there for everyone and the mod to know.

[Grimmjow]

Just FYI, a prod proves nothing. She did say in her last post that she's been busy, so she may just still be busy. Depending on what she says when she gets back, or depending on what her replacement says if it comes to that (hoping it doesn't though) will give us more information.

[Grimmjow]

@Blue: Ok, what do you mean by being jumpy, and why does that incite a vote on me? Also, I appreciate you being active, but one post with all your thoughts as opposed to 3 with one line would help out a lot (to me at least) as it would cut down on the clutter in the thread.

[Grimmjow]

wow...that was an eventful night.

This is all you have to say? No other comment than that?

[Grimmjow]

Also, with his complete "I'M TOWN GUYS" posts, I'm less likely to believe Blue to be town than I am that he's scum. I think even a complete noob would know better than to be that forthright about it.

[Grimmjow]

Where exactly in my last few posts did I insult anyone?

[Grimmjow]

Ok, reposting what I have recently said is not exactly what I meant. Yes, your post 303 was rude, but in the same token, you weren't really doing anything of value. Your post 302 however was not insulting at all. Rather, it was actually playing the game. And this is getting us nowhere. Especially considering you didn't answer my question as to what was so "jumpy" about me to incite a vote.

I'm not sure how to take your playstyle. Is it that you're new and don't really know how to play the game, or is it that you're scum and just trying to pin something on someone other than yourself.

[Grimmjow]

Also, would you mind posting your timezone (that goes for Tomie too)?

@VE: good point. I didn't consider that.

@Blue: YOU ARE A NOOB, BUDDY.

[Grimmjow]

EBWOP: Cy's a noob too, as is the majority of the town. That's why it's called a newbie game. Calling someone noob is not an insult here. It's a fact.

[Grimmjow]

AGAIN, this is getting us nowhere.

Blue, rather than us discussing what's an insult and what isn't, why not discuss your reads/thoughts/opinions on the town. Since you, VE, and I apparently are all online, we can discuss these things easily.

[Grimmjow]

VE: I can see what you're saying. I, personally, don't take offense to it, but I can understand how others might.

Also, as you stated earlier, Blue very well may just be new and afraid of the added attention to himself. But I'd like to hear more from him regarding the actual game rather than playstyles before making that judgement call.

[Grimmjow]

I will be happy to do this, but not now. I've been drinking a bit and don't think it'd be good for me to go back and re-read EVERYTHING XD
I'd rather just talk with the two of you and discuss things with you two. Outright discussion with one or two other players will give me more information than re-reading the thread again (kinda like real time ISO, I suppose).

[Grimmjow]

Blue, for the third time, please tell me what you consider "jumpy" and why that is a scumtell.

[Grimmjow]

VE, I appreciate your input in situations like this, however I think it would be best for it to come from the horse's mouth, so to speak, so that I can gauge his reaction as opposed to it potentially being... for lack of a better word... tainted by someone else. If he reads what others write before he posts, he might be able to cover his tracks a bit better, assuming he is scum. But that goes for anyone, not just Blue.

[Grimmjow]

Blue, defending oneself is not a scum or town tell. Defending oneself is a given if you are trying to play the game and someone casts blame on you. And I didn't post anything to your other reads because I can see how you can see what you are seeing.

The only comment I do have to post about your reads, however, is what is making the "?" on VE.

[Grimmjow]

Also, one thing I just noticed:

@Mod: It has been 72 hours since Miss JJ has posted in the thread. Prod, please?

[Grimmjow]

Also, VE, I just made the comment to my boyfriend about how I thing "speed mafia" would be better for me because I hate having to wait for people to post and I like the more active and fast paced feel. Perhaps that's something you should look into as well once you get out of the newbie games.

[Grimmjow]

EBWOP: "how I think*"

[Grimmjow]

I understand that, but can you explain what your reads on him are? What makes you think he's town and what makes you think he's scum? I'm asking you specifically about him because he's the only one that you have a "?" on. Everyone else is either scum or town to you.

[Grimmjow]

I also have to say that I find in incredibly interesting that when I say that talking with both VE and Blue individually will give me more information than the long forum version, both of them log off pretty soon afterwards... Noting that VE has kinda been defending Blue the whole time and Blue's "?" read on VE, I could see a possible scumteam here...

[Grimmjow]

Well can you give reasons as to why you think he is town and/or scum? Just stating that you think that doesn't help the town. If you can give concise reasons, then it'd be taken better and more into consideration...

[Grimmjow]

Have you heard of the term "buddying"? It refers to scum trying to get in the good graces of a townie by saying "hey, you're right " or "I can see why he does this." It takes blame off of the scum Not saying that's what VE's doing; I'm just saying it's something to consider.

[Grimmjow]

are we the only 3 playing this game 0.o

No, we're not, but we're the only ones online right now.

[Grimmjow]

A little insight into my play: I give almost everyone the benefit of the doubt until they do something suspicious to me.

My first game, I gave everyone "the benefit of the doubt" and it ended up biting us in the ass. I was the only person that said "eh, I dunno" towards one scum person because of his newness where everyone else was like "Oh, he's newish, idk" and we ended up screwed because of it. So I'm not doing it this time.

[Grimmjow]

boyfreind !?! i thought you were a guy.

ITT: Blue doesn't read the thread.

Yes, I'm a guy. And yes, I'm gay. As has been stated multiple times.

[Grimmjow]

such as promising to post something and then disappearing when it's an engaging discussion...

Is this not what JJ did? And yet you've shown no suspicion towards her...

[Grimmjow]

Actually, you haven't outright SAID your gay in the thread yet...you HAVE mentioned your boyfriend many times though...

This IS true... But I'm listed as male, and you even outright said I was gay, and I didn't deny it...

[Grimmjow]

boyfreind !?! i thought you were a guy.

ITT: Blue doesn't read the thread.

Yes, I'm a guy. And yes, I'm gay. As has been stated multiple times.

0.o um um um um whoa um well ahhhhh

I was going to say something to this, but I decided against it.

Blue: What's your timezone, and where are you from? Just idle curiosity...

[Grimmjow]

My problem with this line of reasoning is this: ANYONE can agree with someone. That's more a null-tell than anything. But obviously I'm biased because you're referring to me...

Eh, this is true, and like you said, it's all in context, but I do think you're scum, so I'm looking at it from that perspective.

[Grimmjow]

RANDOM FREAKING SIDENOTE:

VE: I'm a fan of your avatar.

Maybe I should stop with this tonight. I'm a wee bit tipsy...

But I'm having fuuuuuun. (aaaaand, I'm a nerd XD)

[Grimmjow]

Look at it this way. Having decided I'm scum already, you're ruling out the possibility of scumteams that don't involve me, so you won't see them. And now that we've got activity from more people, that's a big freaking hole in your vision sir.

*deep sigh*

I suppose your right. I do think you're scummy, and I'm not in the slightest convinced you're not scum, but you're right, that is promoting tunnel vision...

[Grimmjow]

Tell me this: I know I'm not scum. What can I do to convince you? Clearly I don't look AS scummy as when we were arguing, or it wouldn't be this civil in the thread (I'm drunk too, so I KNOW this, man!)...so what is it that bothers you about my play that has you SO convinced I'm scum? Seriously, if my town-play is this scummy, I NEED to know.

The only thing I can really say here is I think you and I would get along wonderfully if we were at a bar drinking together XD

As far as your playstyle goes, it's the same with me. People see the way I play as scummy. I don't really know why, but they do. And like I said, another guy and I got into it in my last game and we both ended up town, so I may just be on the wrong track.

Or I could just be drunk and like "WTFEVER WHEEEEEE"

[Grimmjow]

So, also, as far as discussing outside of the game this shit has nothing to do with anything about this game stuff goes, I'm through discussing it. If you want to talk about it, feel free to PM me or just talk on Guy's Pt. 2.

[Grimmjow]

*deep sigh again*

I hate you, you scummy bastard. Everything in your last post rang as town to me, and if it weren't for the fact that I was already seeing you in a more and more town light, I wouldn't be doing this...

Unvote

I'm sure that's going to end up biting me in the ass either as you being scum or people thinking I'm scum, but whatever, it's how I feel.

[Grimmjow]

So, VE, my question to you now: how do you see me?

[Grimmjow]

and no ive diecided my vote is staying asking me to unvote seams scumy

No one asked you to unvote...

[Grimmjow]

No one asked you to unvote...

If you feel like your vote is on the right person, then I'm not asking you to unvote. I just want to make sure you're reading the thread and taking everything into account first, like VE asked of me.

[Grimmjow]

Ok, so VE thinks I'm town, I'm leaning town but am undecided toward VE. Blue I'm not sure about. So that leaves like 6 people to really be held accountable.

Blue, what are your reads based on what has occurred tonight? Tonight being the actual tonight not the night phase, obviously.

[Grimmjow]

Ok, so probably a poor decision since I have been drinking, but I'm going to go through my top scum suspects' ISOs...

This'll be fun.

[Grimmjow]

Not an insult, just my playstyle:

YOU CALL YOURSELF A NOOB BUT GET UPSET BECAUSE SOMEONE ELSE CALLS ANOTHER PERSON A NOOB WTF AHHHHH..

Just sayin'.

[Grimmjow]

Unfortunately, it also means he won't see this til he's done unless, like me, he's got a tab open with the running thread too.

Which I do.

Also, already making interesting/potentially drunk and not so interesting notes...

[Grimmjow]

Ok, so I got ready to write up my thoughts, and then I realized "Holy shit, I'm drunk." So this is a bad idea. I'll jump into this tomorrow.

[Grimmjow]

cymru96
Tomie Uzumaki
Yonzy
Workdawg
Miss JJ
are my prime suspects

And suddenly I'm not on this list. WTF?

[Grimmjow]

VE: GRAWR YOU'RE GOING TO BED AND I WANTED TO PLAY MOOOOOOORE.

Blue: Why have you decided this? Reasons plz!

[Grimmjow]

Actually, realizing how drunk I am, I'm going to bed as well. We'll pick this up tomorrow or Monday.

[Grimmjow]

Ok, quick phone post since I'm at work.

1)@Tomie: oh yeah, I forgot that he had posted that pic... Damn him LOL. Anyway, my internet personality is not the same as my IRL personality, so that might explain that "personality matching the looks" issue.

2)THANK GOD FOR YOU TOMIE! Finally a really active player.

[Grimmjow]

Holy shit, I'm gone for like a day and wtf happens? The thread blows up. Kay, I'm just waking up, coffee is brewing, and I'm gonna sit back and catch up in a bit.

[Grimmjow]

Christ, I've got so much to post... I'm going to flat out say this now: Don't think I'm lurking currently. I'm typing up my post, and it's going to take some time, especially considering how much analysis I'm really about to put into this...

*bangs head on desk*

[Grimmjow]

"like not wanting the IC to be lynched unless I'm really sure you're scum" - This rings town to me.

Of course this would ring town to you. You're the freaking IC. You don't want to be lynched. Lynching a town IC is a bad thing, yes, but lynching a scum IC would be a good thing. Especially one that is trying to make himself seem town... Just sayin'.

the more the mafia direct the town's actions, the worse the town will do.

And this rings town to me, because it's very true. The more mafia is able to direct the towns actions, the less likely the town will be looking at mafia. And I was actually thinking this exact same thing.

Power roles can feel free to ignore this, but this is what I would do:
@Cop: If you exist, don't reveal yourself, that goes without saying. But I'd say look at bigAl tonight.
@Jailkeeper: see above, except imprison bigAl.
[/WIFOM for Mafia]

This bothers the hell outta me. First off, we don't know if there are even these two power roles in this game. Second off, like Al said, this could very well be mafia telling the town what to do. Third, you're blatantly taking any suspicion away from you by directing investigations on another person.

My point was that she was /not/ being overly defensive, as you seem to think so - the only evidence you gave for her being scum was being overly defensive. I'm disagreeing with the fact that you call it overly defensive, not with the fact that she might be scum based on a previous game.

I'm willing to go with Cobbler on this one. I do think it was overly defensive as well as rash. I pretty clearly said that I wasn't CALLING her scum, I was simply stating that I had a bit more to go on with her since she was in my last game and that I'd keep my eye on her. She manipulated this into "OH MY GOD HE THINKS I'M SCUM JUST BECAUSE OF OUR LAST GAME AND THAT'S BULLSHIT SO I'M GOING TO VOTE HIM." It was a blatant maniplulation. And that's cause for my scumdar to ding pretty loudly. But since she's replacing out, I'm just going to have to wait for her replacement.

Jeez, it didn't even need to be this blown out of proportion. Though I think I see now how it can look scummy. Thank you, Mr. IC, you've taught me.

I don't feel like this was blown out of proportion at all. I think it was appropriate. And I find it interesting that you are so... afraid?... of the suspicion being on you. And you're switch to "Thank you, Mr. IC, you've taught me" actually comes across as scummy to me. Kinda like "Oh, yeah, that was scummy, let's divert attention from me by saying 'Oh, mr. IC, you're soooo right.'"

The issue has been dropped, but I wanted to chime in my opinion on this:

With as many replacements as we've had today, would it be absolutely out of the realm of feasibility to consider a No Lynch today, considering none of us are really going to get a full-cycle's read on everyone (I PbPA almost everyone as soon as I can on my end due to being used to the 48/24 cycles I'm used to, so I'm indifferent)....if not, I'm not trying to change any minds or bring it up further...I'm only raising the possibility, again. My reasoning is that, for at least the replacements, they'll get a chance to get a fair read on everyone for a more informed lynch tomorrow.

No. Just no. We do not need to loose any more players. At least with a lynch today, we do have the opportunity of catching one scum, and, if that happens, based on his/her interactions, we might be able to figure out who the other scum is.

right you want insight? I'm sot totally sure what insight means but I'll try.

I've said it time and time again, I think Miss JJ is scum, I've explained why before.
I am also slightly suspicious of Cobblerfone and Tommie because I didnt trust yonzy or tucah cause they were lurking.

I have no time for more now but I shall continue later

Cy, your reasoning for these are illogical. And even though it has been clearly stated your suspicion of JJ was illogical multiple times, you are unwilling to change your mind here. That's very suspicious. I can understand being new and placing your vote on her because of your reasoning, but after it has been stated multiple times how your reasoning is flawed, even a new player, I would think, would be able to see how he was wrong and change/remove his vote. This would, however, be possible for newb-scum.

Now, if you are newb-town, your blatant disregard for logic doesn't help the town at all. And if that's the case, then you are only hurting the town. And unless you can do something to change my mind and make me think that you are town and that you are actively participating and willing to listen to logic, then a lynch on you would not necessarily be a bad thing... Come on, cy, step up your game.

workdawg town has no nead to add preasure also your a lurker resentment to my suspect list proves you want to protect lurkers IE: your scum buddies so VOTE: /workdawgVOTE:

WHAT IS THIS I DON'T EVEN...
Blue, you don't make any sense sometimes. How is this even a sentence? Can you clarify what you mean here?

@cobbler

Addressing any potential power-roles is suspicious. Preempting your comment with a "you can ignore this if you want" does nothing to mitigate that. Mostly for the reason that bigAl suggested, but also because town shouldn't want to know if they exist or not. If town knows, then scum would also know and would NK them for sure.

The "not wanting the IC to be lynched unless we are sure" comment sounds a bit like you are trying to divert his suspicions. Convenient that the person who was suspicious of your motives is the IC you are saying you wouldn't want to lynch.

Wow, I'm glad I'm not the only one thinking this. I was writing up my thoughts before I even read this.

Now, as far as Tomie's posts go, I don't really have anything to say. The logic is reasonable, but all I'm really seeing is a recap of what has happened and opinions on it. No real suspicions or anything like that, unless I missed something. So I'm getting null from Tomie.

So, for the tl;dr version:

-Cobbler is coming off scummy to me for seeming to direct the town, and quickly backpeddling/trying to immediately make himself look more town after having been called out.
-bigAl is still a suspect in my book, but it could very well just be the IC-ness making me suspicious of him.
-Cy is seeming suspicious due to active lurking, lack of content, illogical reasoning, and disregard for others trying to show him how he's illogical.
-Blue is like WTF. I just don't even know. It could be that he's new and has no idea what he's doing. But he's not doing anything for the town.
-Workdawg is null to town for me. Calling out Cobbler for the same reason I did before I had even read that far makes me think he's town, but it could very well just be scum throwing suspicions on someone else.
-JJ seems scummy to me for the insane jump from "She was scum in my last game" to "HE THINKS I'M SCUM THIS GAME JUST BECAUSE OF OUR LAST GAME" but I'm going to wait for the replacement before making an opinion
-Tomie's just plain null because there are no suspicions that I could see, just a recap on things.

Sorry for such a long post, guys.

[Grimmjow]

Cy, her "not letting it go" comes down to what everyone said: that it was a potential scumslip, but there's nothing else we can glean from this. Hell, I stated multiple times that I don't really believe it was just a noob slip and that I thought it was more of a subconscious scumslip. Yet you don't seem suspicious of me for that. And you could very well be using JJ as a scapegoat as well.

[Grimmjow]

EBWOP: But all of this comes down to WIFOM, so it's not reliable. Except that, as I stated before, WIFOM is a great tool for scum...

[Grimmjow]

If I do get lynched bear in mind what I think about JJ (or JJ's replacement).

You did, however, earn town points for this one.

[Grimmjow]

Just a quick note, I'm about to do some major computer work (putting my hdd in a new computer), so I might be away for a bit, but I should be able to get it all accomplished this afternoon/evening. But just throwing that out there just in case I don't get back soon-ish.

[Grimmjow]

Wow, Blue, if you're just following VE's lead, then essentially you're looking more and more scum to me. Is that not the argument we used with VE: stepping back and just following the town is an easy was for scum to keep from looking suspicious?

[Grimmjow]

Also, my computer is having... issues... right now, so idk when I'll have to get off this thing again and wont be able to get on for a bit. But while I'm here, I'm ready.

Also, I find it interesting the Al just pops in long enough to comment on Blue's self-vote, but says nothing about anything else in the game. As an IC, I'd expect him to be a bit more active, especially if he's trying to seem town...

[Grimmjow]

Now, I'm having a slight issue here...

Assuming Blue is scum, and he's following your lead, would that not then make you seem like scum as well? Wouldn't it be reasonable for a newb-scum player in Blue's position to just sit back and follow his scumbuddy around?

That being said, Blue-scum could also be doing this to make us think you might be scum whereas you might not be. So we have a WIFOM dilemma here as well...

[Grimmjow]

PREVIEW EDIT:

As an IC, I'd expect him to be a bit more active, especially if he's trying to seem town...

That wording is odd, but nothing to base a vote on since I have you as town before. And, regardless of alignment of course bigAl would try to seem town.

You're right. The wording was funky. I think what I meant to say was that I'd expect him to be more active, especially if he were town. Staying in the background is kind of a scum tactic, as to not draw attention to himself.

[Grimmjow]

I'm just saying that if Blue is scum, then latching on to VE would make him look scummy if Blue got lynched. But you're right, it's just a wild theory.

[Grimmjow]

Actually, I was just bitching to my bf about how I have NO clue who's scum in this game. Cy and Blue are noob and playing so... I don't want to use the word "poorly," but that's the best word for this... that I can't get a read on either of them. Tomie, as I have stated, doesn't really do anything that I can see except recap things; Cobbler, as I stated, seems scum to me, but recently he's been coming off as more and more town; Al I'm hesitant about because if he is town, we'd loose a potentially good player; Workdawg I just can't seem to get a solid read on; you are coming off as town, but I'm still hesitant because of my previous suspicions of you, though I do have to say the kinda-sorta-but-not-really-pushing-for-a-no-lynch seemed a bit scummy to me; and JJ's getting replaced and she posted no real content before the thread started blowing up.

What that boils down to is I just don't know. I think at this point I'd be ok with a lynch on Cy or Blue, just because they're playing poorly and aren't really participating or posting any content at all. Between the two of them, I'd go for Blue, however. Cy at least has made SOME points, whereas Blue has just been all over the place.

[Grimmjow]

@VE: I just got my computer completely up and running, and I don't have anything planned for the night, so I'm going to be up for a bit if you want to do another night of speed mafia type thing.
That goes for everyone too. I'm online for a while now, so let's get this rolling.

[Grimmjow]

Something else fun I would've enjoyed typing if I didn't already understand where you're coming from ^^

I lol'd

Honestly, I was never PUSHING a no-lynch. I was raising it as a possibility because I don't know how this forum typically views no-lynches and I

feel like it might be better than randomly stabbing. On EpicMafia (ugh), No-Lynch was STANDARD d1, and that's AFTER Mafia have already gotten a night-kill in. So I don't know. I just don't want to see us lynch a townie.

I'd prefer that as well, but since we don't really have any solid reads, I'd rather lynch a poorly-playing townie than someone that might be a good player later.

And regarding speed-mafia, the host will probably shoot one of us. lmao But I'm down providing the wife hasn't made plans for me yet -.-

Again, I lol'd.

[Grimmjow]

Oops about that last post's second quote, but you get what needs to be quoted.

[Grimmjow]

Also, NS is pretty chill, actually. And I think he enjoyed our drunken ramblings the other night.

[Grimmjow]

I meant VE. The semicolon commands it!

[Grimmjow]

Even if VE is town, a second opinion would be more useful than a double vote, I think.

Exactly this.

Al I'm hesitant about because if he is town, we'd loose a potentially good player

If Al is mafia, they'd lose a potentially good player. @everyone that's not lynching me because they don't want to lose the IC - note that an experienced player can help the mafia just as much as they can help town.

Very true. This is a good point.

And Al earns town points.

[Grimmjow]

My (and others) repeated questions/requests for his opinion have gone largely unanswered

This is true as well. Keeping in mind that I have asked for a link to a game, and after VE basically said that he'd say "Screw you" about it, Tomie turned around and said that (s)he, too, would like the link, and Cy didn't even acknowledge either of our requests, not even a "screw you."

[Grimmjow]

Ah, so Cobbler, does that make you /in for a speed mafia night? Same goes to Al.

[Grimmjow]

So Blue changes his opinion once someone casts a scum-suspicion on him. Noted.

[Grimmjow]

Yeah, I meant this game. And I can understand the "Beginner's Guide" post as well. I'm still down for discussion tonight, however.

[Grimmjow]

It's why I'm not worried about him, 'cause I figure if he is scum it won't be too hard to tell.

How do you figure?

[Grimmjow]

Congratulations! Yet another useless post! Great job, Blue!

[Grimmjow]

Ok, Blue, since you've apparently decided to play the game rather than just blindly follow VE, what are your reads on people and who do you think you would be ok with seeing lynched today?

[Grimmjow]

And who do you think is lurking?

[Grimmjow]

Ok, Blue, JJ is being replaced, and therefore isn't lurking. Tomie is in a completely different time zone. It's currently like 4AM where he is. And he's posted some content today. So that doesn't really qualify as lurking either.

[Grimmjow]

Not everyone is night owls like we are, buddy. And after having posted today, and the last time he was online was like 1:00 pm our time, then that's not considered lurking. Lurking means that they are online, reading the thread, and not posting at all.

[Grimmjow]

mabey workdawg he has ahint of scumyness

Ok. This is better. Why do you think he has "a hint of scummyness"?

[Grimmjow]

Adding pressure has the potential to make scum slip up, so adding pressure is not a bad thing either.

[Grimmjow]

I'm going to put pressure on Al now, and take a leap here, but:

Vote: bigAl

Okay, because people keep adding new posts in the thread since I started writing this, I'm going to cut it off here and start a new post. Cause I realize that in this long post, I've said incredibly little about anything specific.

You have not done this. And you have been online multiple times since you posted this, so I'm calling you out for lurking.
Plus, your vote is staying on cy for no real good reason.

UNVOTE: Grimmjow, VOTE: Cymru for not contributing any suspicions for pages and pages, and then finally contributing illogical ones.

Contributing illogical suspicions is not necessarily a scum thing, especially considering how he has been playing. However, being an IC and voting someone based on really loose/faulty logic does seem like a scummy thing to do.

Anyway. A cymru lynch makes me... nervous. And yes, I know I'm voting him at the moment. My thoughts- if he flips town, what does that give us? We know that he didn't like JJ for questionable reasons. We know that most everyone that has talked about him wants him to post more definite opinions on people. The only thing that could really distinguish the remaining live people from each other is whether or not they thought his "typo" was legitimate or not. And his role doesn't really even matter much for that - if someone thinks it's a typo, they still think it's a typo whether he's scum or not. There's also the consideration of whether he's currently helping the town (as either scum or town) - currently not much. I guess it makes sense to - when you see several people as equally scummy - lynch the one that's the least helpful to the town. Of course this is all a big if he flips town. If he's scum, that's great, but doesn't give a lot of info about his partner.

Then why keep your vote on cy at all? If his lynch gives us NO information whatsoever, then why are you still keeping your vote there and, in essence, pushing for his lynch.

I'm putting myself out here with this vote, and I want to hear from others as to their opinions of Al.

Fixed quote tag. ~~NS

[Grimmjow]

I had a feeling that would catch your attention.

[Grimmjow]

It takes 2 hours to formulate a post? I hardly see that. And anyone that is lurking would see when they were called out, and would jump on the defensive for it. Thus, why I thought it would catch your attention. And yes, I do understand that you say you're still voting him because of his lack of content and the fact that he has ignored questions/accusations pointed at him, but that very well could just be a noob thing, and not vote worthy this early in the game, IMO. As far as your "posting twice" goes, you've only posted once. Five minutes after you last post to chime in that you're vote was still there. And then nothing for 2 hours. Especially when I had mentioned a potential speed mafia deal tonight. So yeah, I can kinda call that lurking.

[Grimmjow]

Holy crap. I wake up and this shit's going down...

I am going to make an Official Request.

PLEASE try your best to contain your thoughts as a player to as few posts as possible. Posting six times

in a row

in the space of eleven minutes is not cool.

All I have to say is THANK GOD

[Grimmjow]

Ooh, REALLY do not like Grimmjow removing his vote as soon as he's criticised for it.

Yeah, no. Don't really see where that was the case. I kept my vote on him for... 28 posts. And in that amount of time a few people actually said that it was a bad decision. And, on top of that, it was and RVS that yonzi had placed on him, which, at the time, I didn't really see as an RVS. But after having thought about it, it did seem more like an RVS because, I was hoping, no one would really be

that

foolish as to have placed a vote on someone for that reasoning.

Also, here's a question for you: if you seem to think I"m soooooo scummy, why not vote me instead of Workdawg? Your only reason that you've stated was "his posting is atypical of newb scum." That's a major stretch there. I'm REEEEEEEALLY scummy, but the ONLY reason you're not voting me is because of my posting rate. Hmmm.

[Grimmjow]

Miss JJ voted you. You unvoted in your next post. Point stands.

Mis JJ voted me for RVS and because she knew me from our last game. Point doesn't stand...

[Grimmjow]

Oh, sorry, didn't read her next post. You're right, she did say that my FoS was stronger than my vote and that's why she was voting me. She didn't "criticize" my vote, however.

[Grimmjow]

I was just noting that he had no responded to your questions or mine. This could possibly be newbiness. However, I'm about to loose my patience with the newbie card with cy and blue.

With a quick read, Viscera... didn't look good... I can post my analysis of Viscera and Grimmjow as well.

So... why doesn't VE look good? I think most of the town would agree that he's the towniest here. Unless you're playing the "too town to be town" card, which I don't necessarily agree with. Analysis/reasons plz.

Newb question here: Can anyone explain what this "padding" issue is about? What is padding? Checked the wiki but didn't come across anything.

Another side note:

@Mod: How about that game extension now? We have less than a week left and several people who have replaced in, and the activity level has certainly shifted drastically recently, so could we please have at least a 1 week extension?

More later but coffee commands me currently (oooo, fun with alliteration).

[Grimmjow]

I'll explain why when I get back from the 36 hrs V/LA which begins as of now.

Woops missed this.

What does this have anything to do with you? He mentioned you as a potential scumbuddy, but his reference was as to his "I'll explain" was towards why bigAl has been creeping up in his suspicions.

[Grimmjow]

I'm just saying that your reasoning for voting the Fonz is very... weak. And then you turn around and unvote him but didn't really explain why, and I didn't understand what you were saying. But seriously, you're rational for voting the Fonz over Workdawg is really sketchy. I'm not saying Workdawg is scum, I'm just saying that you have explained more reasons to vote him then you have the Fonz. It just didn't make sense to me.

[Grimmjow]

@Grimm
What are your initial thoughts on the newcomers? I feel like in spite of her...compulsive insistence?...on absolute clarity, Miss JJ was at least trying to get information out of people and as such, will NOT get my vote today, as Fonz or otherwise. Fonz hasn't struck me as particularly scummy either.

Drunk Grimm is drunk. Me thinks I shall post about this tomorrow. But I do have some thoughts on the matter.

[Grimmjow]

I don't think that voting Blue right now is a good idea. If it gets closer to the deadline and we don't have any real potential scum-suspects, then yeah, get rid of him rather than go into no lynch. But I don't think getting rid of a potential townie is a good idea right now, regardless of how shitty they're playing.

[Grimmjow]

I stand by my vote Grimm - and here's my reason.

After 2 weeks, we have a grand total of 27 pages...and no scum suspects. Sure, we have a few people that appear a little scummy, some vague suspicions...but as far as having a clear lynch candidate, we do not. I feel this is at least in PART because of the spam and self-voting of bluepokemon. He's taken SO much time away from scumhunting with his self-voting. And his spam serves NO town-oriented purpose. Mafia though....mafia THRIVE in that kind of environment.

Mafia's FAVORITE Things:
Dead Thread - We've been here over the last two weeks...directly after the mod warned about blue's spam.
Spammy Thread - several days in a row, we had to contend with 6-7 pages per night. SEVERAL people have commented on it.

bluepokemon is WHY we've been contending with BOTH of those things. It's true, I don't so much think he's scum...per se. But if he played ANY better, if he posted ANY more clearly...I'd be CERTAIN he's scum, for these reasons. With bluepokemon gone, we should have a decent environment to sniff out the enemies of the state.

Sadly, I agree with this. I'm not going to vote him right now though for the reason I have stated. I feel like placing a vote on him would hinder me from putting in the effort to actually scum-hunt and just say screw it and get this day over with, and I'm not willing to do that just now.

I have a few suspicions, and I'll run through those later (I'm about to go to fill out paperwork for a new job, yay me!), and I look forward to hearing peoples' thoughts on them.

[Grimmjow]

Ok, I want to state this right now:

PEOPLE: PLEASE DO NOT CONTINUE TO VOTE ON CY OR BLUE UNLESS YOU HAVE A VALID REASON OTHER THAN "LET'S JUST GET THEM OUT OF THE GAME SO WE CAN PROGRESS." THIS DOES ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO HELP THE TOWN AND INSTEAD HELPS MAFIA MORE BECAUSE IT CUTS DOWN ON THE NUMBER OF TOWN PLAYERS. IF WE GET CLOSE TO THE DEADLINE AND DON'T HAVE ANYTHING SUBSTANTIAL ON ANYONE ELSE, THE YES, WE CAN GET RID OF

ONE

OF THEM, BUT WE NEED TO COME TO A CONSENSUS AS TO WHICH IT WILL BE.

That is all for now.

Analysis/thoughts coming soon since I just got home.

[Grimmjow]

where did I go? I went to bed, got up, went to school, came home, did homework, played video games, read the mafia stuff, found Tommie's essay pointless and suspicious.

I am now in a dilema. I still think Cobbler is scummy cause of the miss JJ thing but I'm not sure between Tommie and Blue.
Blue- says random stuff and votes for me stupidly.
Tommie- Much ado about nothing. (said loads that made no sense.) It looked like scum who didn't know what to do so he tried to write stuff which failed.

I shall not unvote because I think of the two, Blue is currently most suspicious of the two and if we're scumhunting t'would be a waste of a vote on cobbler coz no one would belive me.

FoS- Cobblerfone
Fos- Tommie Uzumaki

Actually, this came off as the most logical post that you have made thus far. I would actually like to hear your reasoning behind a potential cobbler vote.

[Grimmjow]

Ok, so I've had a gut feeling about Cobbler since he stepped into this game. It's one of those situations where I can't completely put my finger on it, but I just have a feeling. Which, mind you, was the case in my last game as well and the guy DID turn out to be scum. So I went back through his ISO and found these things:

@Jailkeeper: see above, except imprison bigAl.

FTR, if Al is scum, he can just have his scumbuddy submit the NK and it'll still happen. Just FYI.

but also because town shouldn't want to know if they exist or not.

But, I never said that they should reveal themselves. EVER. That wasn't even what the disclaimer was about. It was about who I think they should target. I think bigAl is the best investigative and imprison choice. Why? Because he's the IC and people seem to not be trusting him because he seems suspicious, but they also don't seem to be that keen on lynching him because he's the IC. Therefore, no matter what read the Cop gets, if there is one, it's a win-win. The problem would of course be how the cop is supposed to communicate an innocent result. sigh. If the cop ever gets a guilty they should of course vote for the guilty party.

And maybe, claim depending on how surprising the result is.

.

This sounds to me like scum saying "Cop, if you're here, investigate bigAl cuz I know he'll come back town and then tell us that he's town so we can NK yooooooou."

And the only reason I brought it up is because if bigAl is town, he'll be protected even if there isn't a jailkeeper because of anti-scum mindgames

WIFOM what.

Interesting. In the EXACT SAME POST:

Except that, as I stated before, WIFOM is a great tool for scum...

It's not really that dangerous.

It's just something you have to ignore.

@IC, this is good, yes? I wouldn't want people thinking I'm trying to manipulate them through some kind of ridiculous scheme.

Again, this sounds scummy to me.

I've seen a self-hammer twice. That's all I'll say. Besides that the ONLY time it's EVER a good idea to self-hammer is if you're scum because it basically ends discussion.

"HEY NOOB SCUMBUDDY. HAMMER YOURSELF IF IT COMES DOWN TO IT THAT WAY ALL DISCUSSION IS ENDED AND I CAN CONTINUE WITHOUT NOTICE."

Blue you seem like you have good potential. Don't squander it. If you're scum this might actually be even more frustrating because this is making me want to not vote you.

See above...

It's why I'm not worried about him, 'cause I figure if he is scum it won't be too hard to tell.

How do you figure?

Never answered this...

But I just thought of something that's actually kind of obvious at this point. I'm not going to say what it is.

... HOW IS THIS BENEFICIAL TO THE TOWN AT ALL?!?!?!

I'm just saying that your reasoning for voting the Fonz is very... weak. And then you turn around and unvote him but didn't really explain why, and I didn't understand what you were saying. But seriously, you're rational for voting the Fonz over Workdawg is really sketchy. I'm not saying Workdawg is scum, I'm just saying that you have explained more reasons to vote him then you have the Fonz. It just didn't make sense to me.

All will be revealed on day two. Unless I'm killed, but it won't matter if I am.

Again, how is this beneficial to the town. Unless of course you are lynched today and flip scum.

And if you are killed, don't you think that it would be better to share your reasonings now, while you can? Why hide stuff? That can't be good for the town.

I already said that if I get killed it'll have no bearing on it whatsoever.

This.. makes... no... sense... at... all...

@bigAl, who do you think is scum? How you answer affects my list below.

My lynch list
Day One: bigAl?/Fonz?/bluepokemon (as a back up)
Day Two: Workdawg/bigAl/Fonz?
Day Three: Depends on which of the above flip scum or enviromental factors.

So, you ask his opinion on who he thinks is scum, but you find him to be scum. If he's scum, and he says that someone else is scum, then likely isn't that person town? So, if you follow that logic, his opinion on who is scum doesn't matter because, if you're town, you want scum lynched, not town.

VOTE: Cobblerfone

for purposefully denying information from the town, seeming to buddy up with someone who is not being beneficial at all, following faulty logic, and general scum gut-read.

[Grimmjow]

YOU ARE RIGHT. NO TOWNIE WOULD EVER HIDE INFORMATION. ALL THE POWER ROLES ARE OBVIOUSLY SCUM.

So wait, what? You just claimed a PR? Seriously? Considering your post here:

Power roles can feel free to ignore this, but this is what I would do:
@Cop: If you exist, don't reveal yourself, that goes without saying. But I'd say look at bigAl tonight.
@Jailkeeper: see above, except imprison bigAl.
[/WIFOM for Mafia]

I'm not buying it at all.

[Grimmjow]

It's why I'm not worried about him, 'cause I figure if he is scum it won't be too hard to tell.

How do you figure?
Never answered this...

I'm sorry, I just thought it was so obvious. Especially since soon after blue posted his infamous "im bored" post.

So you STILL didn't answer this.

[Grimmjow]

YOU ARE RIGHT. NO TOWNIE WOULD EVER HIDE INFORMATION. ALL THE POWER ROLES ARE OBVIOUSLY SCUM.

PRs, yes, would hide that they're PRs, but this just doesn't make sense. You keep claiming to have information that wont matter if your lynched, but you wont tell anyone what it is. That just doesn't make ANY sense whatsoever.

[Grimmjow]

blue, I'm not going to ask again...if you keep promoting yourself for lynch, I'm going to the mod to request you be banned for cheating. You're game-throwing no matter what your alignment is. Either go read the thread and vote for the person you find to be the most scummy or vote for self-lynch and await your judgement. It's up to you.

No worries. I already PM'd the mod to tell him this shit's got to stop. Self-voting, claiming scum, and the repeated multi-posting nonsense has all got to stop. The self-voting and scum claim (especially if he is scum) is against the rules as he is playing AGAINST his win condition. I asked the mod either for a forced-replace or a mod-kill.

Blue: you are an idiot. The way you have been playing is absolutely pathetic, and I will policy lynch you from here out if you are ever in a game with me. It is my sincerest hopes that you learn to play better and actually get into the game rather than acting like a freaking retard. And if that is not possible, then it is my sincerest hope you end up getting banned from the site because of all this. You are in a game with other people, and acting the way you have acted this entire game (THIRTY FREAKING PAGES WORTH) is deplorable and disrespectful to the others in the game who actually want to play and want to have a good time.

[Grimmjow]

Searching for a replacement for bluepokemon1234 per his request.

Thank god.

Also, just a note. I'm keeping my vote on Cobblerfone unless someone can convince me otherwise. C'mon, people, let's get this game going.

[Grimmjow]

Christ, my head hurts. I just got back from work, but I'll put some effort into this in a bit. So much analysis to do v.v

However, I will repost this, as it caught my eye just as I was posting this...

It seems to me like cymru has flickers of "helpful thoughts", but they are too scattered amongst amidst a lot of non-helpful posts. They seem to be coming more frequently as the deadline draws near, which is mildly suspicious, but not enough to make me think he's scum.

I was noticing the exact same thing, actually. The closer we got to the deadline, the more frequently he started to post actual thoughts rather than nonsense. This could be explained by having people continuously say that he needs to post more content, and us commending him on having better reads/thoughts, or it could just be scum trying to stay in the background. And it did start happening more after everyone was completely fed up with Blue and were beginning to ignore him, as well. Which could very well be that he realized his "easy target" was not so easy of a target anymore and he

had

to step up his game.

[Grimmjow]

I'm sorry for having been so quiet. RL shit got in the way. New job and all, plus other crap. I'll try to catch back up this afternoon/evening.

[Grimmjow]

The thing that cobbler said about getting tired of the day seems suspicious... are you just trying to end it to take the pressure away from you?

I actually agree with you here, cy.

Ok, now on to the catching-up-ness.

[Grimmjow]

So, Zach, like VE said, there's several pages worth of "WTF IS THIS SHIT AHHHH" that you can just breeze over (namely almost every post the person you replaced posted), so it really wont take too long to get caught up. Also, I'd really appreciate it if you tried your best to get as far into the game as possible. Since we are so close to the deadline, if you are scum you can just sit back and not put forth any real contributions and just breeze through D1 without suspicion.

[Grimmjow]

Ok, after reading through the past... 10 pages, I've decided my vote on Cobbler is well placed. I sat back and tried to step out of my Cobbler vote to look into the Workdawg case and, though I can understand some of the reasons behind his wagon, he doesn't really SCREAM scum to me like Cobbler seem to be doing.

Adding onto my last wall-o-text against Cobbler, I noticed these things.

dont do that

I swear if you are bored scum I will not feel right at all about my win as town. Especially if it turns out to be VE who's you're partner

Seems like you're trying to subliminally make yourself seem town with "about my win as town" while simultaneously throwing suspicion onto VE.

(which is the most likely partner at this point if you ARE scum).

I know you explained that you thought his last post on pg 29 was scummy, but I just don't see it. It's like my post later, where I said that either way he was playing against his win condition and that he was being disrespectful to other people. VE saying that it was bad for his TEAM is essentially saying the exact same, but in more specific terms. I've got a gut feeling Blue/Zach will flip town. So this makes me even more suspicious of you because I feel like you're trying to frame Blue and VE with this.

You know what, blue seems to have basically admitted to being scum in his last post.

VOTE: bluepokemon

This vote seem incredibly opportunistic to me. Especially since you showed little/no suspicion of Blue up until this point and then suddenly he claims scum when you and everyone else knows Blue was a freaking idiot. Yeah. No.

Eh? bigAl, you're the IC, is this right? Because this makes no sense. How is taking positions while giving reasons a scumtell instead of null? Or did I completely forget what converse means?

And again, buddying up to the IC.

I just hope my realization was wrong.

Seriously, this again? It really seems like you're trying to prevent yourself from getting lynched by saying "I think I have really valuable information for the town, so don't kill me!"

@Cobbler In your post 760, you vote for me and then say "I just hope my realization was wrong."... implying that you hope I flip town. Why would you ever hope the person you are voting for flips town?

No, my realization was that you seemed to have been giving power role tells. Thus I hope I'm wrong about you being a power role. But to tell the truth, I think that if you

were

a power role, you would've gotten that hint by now. Seriously. (This is also why I described my read on you as "swingy")

And this is your reasoning? I don't buy it. If you thought he was a PR and you're town, you'd stay the hell away from his lynch. Even if it were just a suspicion and it could be seen either as a PR or scum move. If it were me, I'd keep away, but I'd definitely keep an eye on him to see if he does anything really scummy to me. I certainly wouldn't vote him while simultaneously saying "Oh, I hope I'm wrong and you're not a PR." Especially if he does flip a PR, this would make you look less suspicious. "Hey, look, I thought he was a PR and I was right! I'm really good at picking out peoples' roles/alignments, so don't kill me 'cuz I can help find scum!" Right. I may be stretching this a bit (I can even see this stretch), but it's still a possibility. And if I thought of it, someone else could have thought of it too.

There's bigAl the player, then there's bigAl the IC.

And then there's bigAl the townie-IC and bigAl the scummer-IC. You can't let it slide the fact that he's the IC. What that does say is that, as an IC, he's more talented in covering up scumminess, so you should scrutinize him even more. At least that's how I see it.

Al, Grimm, will you come into the light?

...original scumhunting points vs CF just when I was getting worried about him

Fonz, I'm not changing my stance. Sorry, buddy.

Vote: BigAl- You havent really done much for a while and I have nothing that makes me say town and I get some scum vibes.

Any specific vibes or just general vibes?

Cy is big on the OMGUS votes - a hard habit to get over.

I don't really see this so much as and OMGUS vote as it is a "let's put a little pressure on him" vote along with newbiness and his "scum vibes."
Are you trying to down-play a potential townie's opinions and attempts to play the game, sir? That seems scummy to me.

@Cobbler

You think TWO people are going to hop on my wagon and hammer me down with a week left to the extended deadline? I have to say, you're vote/unvote/vote/unvote is pretty suspicious to me (and would even be if it weren't ON me).

/agree

You seem extremely reluctant to vote for me and I wonder if it's because you know I'm town and you don't want to look like the scum who hopped on the wagon to lynch the townie. (scum like to be in the middle of the wagon, typically)

I'm the only other wagon right now, so if you're scum then you seem to be between a rock and a hard place. Vote for me and be caught lynching a townie, or find another wagon (which would require you to lead off against someone else)... or not vote at all, I suppose.

/agree

So yeah, my vote stays.

Can anyone give me a list of reasons why WD is scum along with explanations? I may just be missing something, but I'm not seeing it.

[Grimmjow]

Aside: What's the record for longest day one in terms of pages?

This game is in the area of being one of the longest, give or take a few pages.

We're already in the top 5; I'll be updating the wiki during Night One.

Uhm, yay?

[Grimmjow]

I dunno - I point out that his argument doesn't hold much water in #723 and a couple days later he switches to me for mostly unspecified "vibes". Maybe I'm using OMGUS wrong, but it seemed a bit retaliatory to me.

I can agree that it does seem a bit "retaliatory," but cy's been playing better lately, so I'm not willing to jump to an OMGUS conclusion. I take his "vibes" the same way I take my "gut feelings." I'm more willing to think this is more of a "I've got a gut feeling and I'm a noob so I'm not really good at picking out why" than an OMGUS vote.

@cy: can you go back through Al's ISO and try to figure out more why you have these "vibes"?

[Grimmjow]

So I'm in the process of going back and re-reading the whole thread (I know, I already want to blow my brains out), but I jumped in a random page and this caught my eye and I wanted to make one completely-off-the-wall-and-no-baring-on-the-game-whatsoever comment.

All I see as 'points' against me was his insistence that I had MULTIPLE oversights/misinterpretations/exaggerations/whatever (I got to type it again! ^^)

I lol'd again at this.

[Grimmjow]

Ok, Zach, I had an issue with him a while back, but decided to unvote him because we had too few players actually playing the game, and it was risky tunneling with that few. I will admit, I have more of a town read on him, but I'm not crossing him off my list. Can you give me more evidence to your vote? After 34 pages, I feel like if you really believe him to be scum, you can come up with a decent case against him.

Also, my boyfriend (Reck) says you're a great player. So I look forward to playing with you.

[Grimmjow]

Damn it Zach! I was pretty suspicious of VE, but everyone else thought it was "ultra town" the way he flipped out. Why must you make me reconsider him!

I didn't think it was "ultra town." I actually made a case as to why his flip out was NOT town. However, I see this more as an opportunistic jump to VE than sincere.

[Grimmjow]

Ok, Zach, I had an issue with him a while back, but decided to unvote him because we had too few players actually playing the game, and it was risky tunneling with that few. I will admit, I have more of a town read on him, but I'm not crossing him off my list. Can you give me more evidence to your vote? After 34 pages, I feel like if you really believe him to be scum, you can come up with a decent case against him.

Cases are overrated. It's like adding a bunch of non and meh points to pad around the points that are actually legitimate.

Touche, but that makes me a tad wary. So I'll agree to this, but I'm going to keep watch more intensely over you're "points/cases."

I also felt he was quite manipulative in the way he convinced you to unvote him. That adds into why I think he's likely scum.

I can understand that, and I went back just now to re-read that part of the thread, and I can still understand the reasoning behind the unvote. However, this has been my own fault, I haven't really been looking at him in a scummy light since then, so perhaps I was overlooking something.

Off topic. Reckoner?

Aye. xRECKONERx

[Grimmjow]

Time for me to head to work. Deadline's getting close, so I expect a lot of participation and discussion coming up.

[Grimmjow]

One thought that I just had (yay running late to work XD):

Zach jumps into the thread and says he wants to know what others think of his slot's "roleclaim," stating only that he roleclaimed VT. He did, however, overlook the fact that Blue also claimed out right scum. Was he subliminally directing people to immediately think of him as town?

[Grimmjow]

Ok, so we have 4 days to go. We don't need a no-lynch scenario here.

[Grimmjow]

Cy, this close to the deadline, it would be incredibly foolish of scum to be pushing some elaborate play like this. As far as who their scumbuddy is, we essentially need to wait for a scum flip and then analyze the interactions that person had with the others in the town. Also, if you think someone is scum, vote them. Idly sitting back and saying "Ok, well one of these two is scum, and I think it's this one" and then not voting that person seems suspicious to me.

[Grimmjow]

but I claimed

I'm assuming you're offering to hammer so I'll claim: I'm just a townie.

This isn't exactly a claim. The way you said it, it makes it sound like you're VT, but I'd just like the clarification. Mostly because claiming "townie" is a great way to play it safe and stay neutral.

You know what:

VOTE: bigAl

Even if I'm at L-1 I can't just act like there isn't a chance at catching scum today.

So, in order to "catch scum," you jump on the only wagon that.... oh... wait... there's 2 days left in the D1 and there wasn't a wagon for him at all... Great job in the scumhunting, buddy...

oh right. I'm open to a hammer ... Before I do any voting though I want to know what Fonz, Tommie and Zach think.

Why are you so interested in others' thoughts and opinions? You have been asking about others' opinions the entire game. This is a great way for scum to say "I want to see what others say that was I don't have to offer an actual opinion and I can still seem like I'm being active." Just sayin'. If you're willing to hammer, then hammer. He's offered his "claim" already... However, if you are going to hammer (or anyone for that matter), I would ask that you wait until Cobbler clarifies his "claim."

[Grimmjow]

I have no idea why people think giving my opinion on what the power roles should do in a newbie game is scummy.

Though I think I see now how it can look scummy.

[Grimmjow]

Sir, you are full of contradictions.

[Grimmjow]

*sigh*

What. In. The. Hell. I could have sworn that Cobbler was scum.

Well, after Tomie's loss, we def have to step up our game. I'm going back and checking through a suspicion of mine. If it pans out, I'll let everyone know. But let's just say that some of the experienced players are not looking too well.

Also, VE, I'm going to go back through your ISO as well. I had a sinking feeling from you right there at the end of D1.

[Grimmjow]

Oh I see, I missed that you alluded to your vote in that post.

Can you guess why I missed it? Cause the rest of your post doesn't sound like someone who ever really thought Cobbler was scum.

Are you kidding me? After the wall-o-text case I typed up on Cobbler, and the multiple times after that I voiced my suspicions and WHY he was suspicious to me, and I started the friggin wagon, I

obviously

didn't think he was actually scum. I think you're grasping at straws, sir. You pop in at the end of D1 with a vote and "case" on VE, then randomly hammer Cobbler, and now, at the start of D2, you vote VE again and throw suspicion on me as well. This doesn't add up.

[Grimmjow]

Oh, my apologies. I thought you were addressing me, as I had just posted and and you mentioned that it was the first post that he/I had posted today. My bad.

[Grimmjow]

So you are saying you think VE was bussing his scumbuddy late into the day yesterday before he jumped on the Cobbler wagon? I'm not buying it.

[Grimmjow]

Oop, def didn't realize it had been 3 days. Sorry guys. I've been busy with this new job. I haven't posted anything since my last post because up until yesterday evening (for me) I didn't really see anything of any content except a bunch of bouncing around a bunch of nothing and fluff. I'll try to get back into the game tonight.

[Grimmjow]

Ok, so, I keep getting the feeling that at least one of our scummers are part of the SE scene.

As a semi-related side note... people who are throwing out "town points"... I'm not sure I like that so much. You are essentially giving scum feedback about what kinds of things YOU consider to be town. If I were scum, I would make note of what people are doing to earn "town points" and try to mimic those things.

I feel like this is the towniest thing that anyone has said in the game. As I stated on D1, I don't really feel a scum vibe coming from Workdawg (I really need to figure out a way to abbreviate your name to my liking...), and this statement really doesn't seem like something scum would say. Especially, as he noted, scum would

want

to know these "town points" so that they can mimic them.

VE I'm torn between town and scum with him. I will say this, though. There's only so many times one can get "frustrated" and throw their hands up and bitch and complain before I start thinking "Is this all an act?" Just as Al said yesterday, it may be obvious to Blue what his alignment may be but it's not necessarily obvious to others, VE should take note of this as well. Also, his comment on the same topic:

First of all, I'm not scum, and that much should be painfully obvious...

I've been trying to help town from the very beginning.

This reads scummy to me. Yes, town needs to help town, but IMO it's more important for town to help themselves than to help each other. Since town does not know who is town, especially not this early in the game, I don't think "helping town" is a good idea, as it might give scum ideas on how to cover their tracks. I think it's more important to lay out your own suspicions and thoughts and see how others react to it. This will give you far more information that trying to show others the way (leading the town), blindly following someone else (bandwagoning in order to stay hidden), and giving helpful little tips as to how to play the game (active lurking). Now, VE, before you get all up in arms, I'm not suggesting that you have done these things. I'm simply putting out there how I feel and how I play.

Cy I'm concerned about. He seems to be popping in at opportune times. On D1, Cy was incredibly concerned about appearing scummy, followed by the infamous "I'm scum" slip/mistype. He even at one point, in reference to bigAl, said:

I don't think he's scum but I'm not gonna unvote cause I havent seen anyone who looks scummy and leaving my vote blank after previously voting looks suspicious.

If you don't find him scummy, then why leave your vote where it is? I understand you said that it would look suspicious, but do you not understand how suspicions work? If you don't find him scummy, you unvote. If you don't unvote, it looks even more suspicious. Especially after blatantly stating that you don't find the person you're voting for scummy. He states through the entire D1 that he thinks JJ is scum because she didn't believe that his "slip" wasn't a typo. However, I even stated that I didn't think it was a typo and he didn't say a word about me. I even called him out for it, and he didn't say anything. Worse than that, he kept saying that he thought she was scum because she didn't believe it was a typo, and even after I and bigAl showed clearly that JJ had said that she thought it very well could have been a typo, he presses the issue, and then flips around saying some asinine comment about JJ having to say it was a typo because she was covering her ass, which I frankly do not buy at all. Either this is just an incredibly new player, or he's having to cover his tracks and is doing it the best way he can--making stuff up that no one can actually verify. I'm not going to give Cy my sympathies anymore. He seems very capable of putting together some semblance of a reasonable argument (see 688, 920, and 946). I'm also VERY troubled by the fact that he skirted around the hammer vote on Cobbler, stating even that it would be suspicious, even after having been told by Al that it isn't as suspicious as the two leading up to it.

All and all, Cy is playing a very... odd game. Either he's really just a newbie and ZERO clue what he's doing (which I'm not inclined to believe, due to his ability to formulate decent posts) or he trying really hard to play up the newbie card and cover his tracks. So:

VOTE: Cymru96

I'll finish up my analysis later. Time to eat

[Grimmjow]

The thing that kept me from voting Al yesterday was that, although he didn't seem to be doing anything that was particularly difficult for scum to fake, his suspicions did basically align with mine.

Well, of those suspicions, he

chose

to wagon the town one over the one of unknown alignment,

and today he seems to have dropped workdawg suspicion pretty much entirely for reasons I can't entirely fathom, and quietly returned to pushing the horrendously newbish Cymru along with Grimmjow.

That's exactly what you said. Chose indicates past tense, which would mean at the time of the vote based on context of the quote.

I actually agree wholeheartedly with Workdawg on this. It does seem as though you are indicating that he knew while on the wagon that he was town. Which does, in turn, cast a scummy light on Al.

FoS: The Fonz

[Grimmjow]

It's like the Oedipus example. Oedipus chose to sleep with his mother. He didn't know she was his mother at the time, but he took a decision to sleep with a woman who, in fact,

was

his mother, so the statement is true.

Yes, the statement is true in the sense that he did sleep with his mother, and Al did wagon a townie, but the indication here is that Oedipus chose specifically to sleep with his mother and that Al chose specifically to wagon a townie, not that the choice was made and it just so happened to turn out that it was Oedipus' mother or that Cobbler was town.

I do not agree with your analogy here. Oedipus did not choose to sleep with his mother. He chose to sleep with a woman. Saying he chose to sleep with his mother, or that Al chose the town wagon, indicates forethought into the act. Choosing to sleep with a woman, or choosing to jump on a wagon is completely different.

[Grimmjow]

I don't think anyone is debating the validity of his argument. The issue is the way that he phrased it. It made it sound as though you knew that he was town, thus casting you in a scummy light. However, by saying this, it makes it seem as though he knew you were scum, which is impossible, unless you are his scumbuddy, which is not plausible since he's trying to call you out for being scum. So what actually occurs is that it makes him seem scummy because he's trying to set you up as scum by saying you knew that Cobbler was town. But as town, you would not know this. However, as scum, he would want to make it seem as though you knew this. This is my issue, at least.

[Grimmjow]

I'm quite interested in the fact that you are probably one of the most experienced players in this game, yet you are throwing around suspicions as though it was everyone vs. you. Which makes for a very interesting thought, when you consider that it is 2 scum vs.

7

5 town. You sit there and have thrown out "scum motivations" on 4 people in your last post (bigAl, Cy, Workdawg, and myself). For such an experienced player, this seems very odd.

[Grimmjow]

I agreed that Al hasn't really done anything to scum hunt today, or yesterday for that matter. Yesterday he made a few decent comments, but today he's not offered up anything, really. I also feel that, as an IC, he should be doing more than just offering helpful little insights into gameplay, which is in essence all he's really done.

I don't think, however, that placing a pressure vote is very effective when another player asks if the vote is there with the intention to lynch... If you say "no, I"m not really intending to lynch this guy" then there's really no pressure, is there?

[Grimmjow]

@Workdawg: What is your opinion of Zach?
@Zach: The same question, but about Workdawg.
@Al: What is your current suspect list and why?

[Grimmjow]

@Al: What, pray tell, is your evidence against me? Your play has been increasingly... horrible. D1 you spent almost the entire day riding cy's ass, switching vote to me once using bullshit reasoning ("Hey, I stated exactly what you're talking about but you called it a good catch when someone else said it") and when I refuted your case, you didn't even respond to me. Then you flipped your vote back to cy and held it there for the majority of the day, unvoted him without ANY reasons whatsoever (you actually stated several points as to why you should keep your vote on him) and then finally dropped your vote on Cobbler at a fairly opportune time (L-2). Furthermore, you followed up stating later that you felt that the L-2 and L-1 votes are more suspicious than the hammer vote. Note that you put Cobbler at L-2. Today, you have posted next to nothing, and absolutely nothing substantial. I'm curious about your vote on me. I'm not complaining about a vote on me, because if someone has

evidence

against me that can withstand questioning, then yes, vote me, but what is your evidence? A "bad feeling"? That's crap, and you know it.

@cy: you place Al at L-1, get called out for it, and say nothing about it except "didn't notice"? For someone who skirted around the hammer vote yesterday, you seem pretty determined in your vote of Al? Is that because you're less concerned with looking suspicious at L-1 than with a hammer vote?

@Workdawg: your rationale behind voting VE seems odd to me. You seem incredibly suspicious of Fonz and Zach, but then vote VE, saying only that he seemed more scummy at the end of D1. Care to give reasons why you found him more scummy D1's end?

And I'm getting tired of people throwing around suspicions without presenting any real evidence. If you're suspicious of someone, go find some damned evidence. Just throwing out suspicions and votes is going to get us nowhere. We need evidence to back up our claims so that the rest of the town can decide if they support that evidence.

FoS: bigAl and Workdawg

for not presenting any real evidence. It's a perfect way for scum to say "Hey, pay attention to this person" and let the town whittle down the rest. And with two mafia still left in the game, all it would take is one saying "I'm suspicious of X," two townies saying "Yeah, X is suspicious," and then mafia jumping on to lynch them. Give evidence because otherwise all it does is screw the town over.

I'm also going to keep my vote where it is, especially with cy's latest L-1/"Oh, didn't notice" vote.

[Grimmjow]

I would like to say thank you to VE for basically writing up my entire post for me XD

1) There's a case to be made against cymru. I mean, you need LITERALLY only look at his record, as you said.

The more he posts, the less sure I am that he's even a newb.

I find it interesting that bigAl spent almost the entirety of D1 voting for cy, but his case against me includes the fact that I'm voting for cy...

And I too was beginning to wonder this. Cy's playstyle just doesn't fit the noob feel for me. (Same actually could be said for blue, but that's inconsequential now)

2) Fonz' methods, while effective in making his points, can be viewed as unorthodox and...well, scummy. I don't see them as scummy myself, but I can absolutely see someone else thinking so, and I'm in NO position to disagree just because I think he's town. If someone else thinks he's scum, and someone else wants to vote for him, I'm not stopping them. But I'm not voting for him.

I agree that Fonz's methods are odd, and he does come off scummy to me. Do I think he's scum? No. During out little debate, once he mentioned looking at the whole of the sentence rather than just that part, I could understand what he was saying. I don't agree that the wording was... correct, but I can understand what he meant.

3) Really? 186?

Didn't you JUST vote for Grimm based on his 'old evidence'?

You're at L-1 bigAl. I suggest you claim.

Christ. I really don't like the idea of a possible lynch going down already. It's too early in the day, and we have almost ZERO evidence to support this lynch other than "faulty reasoning," "non-committal stances" (even though voting me has been committal), and "not contributing to scumhunting." Granted, yes, these are all valid points, but I'd prefer to see better/more evidence. I do think this could be a good lynch, but I'd rather check into some other things first. I've got a weird feeling based off some information that I was going over from D1, but it's too early to let that cat out of the bag. Granted, if Al flips scum, then all of that is null anyway.

You know what, no, I agree with VE. Al, I want a claim. If you flip scum, then we're down one scum and we're better off. If you flip town, during twilight, I can drop my thoughts real quick.

[Grimmjow]

So let me get this straight: You're voting me based solely off D2 and a hunch during D1? You're completely ignoring all of D1 in your decision here?

[Grimmjow]

Al, I find it interesting that your only significant post today was against me, complete with a vote. Yet when I turn around and post my defense, you say nothing about it. You do, however, speak to someone else. Are you trying to avoid having to deal with my defense, and instead use someone else's posts on me so you don't have to deal with what you are actually talking about, namely how scummy you find me? Do you just not feel like it's a good case and if you actually had to deal with my defense/scrutiny that you'd come off showing your true colors? It's also interesting to note that last night I posed a question to you, yet you logged on this morning and didn't respond to it at all. I also think it's interesting that someone asked for your claim, and I even turned around to ask for one as well, and your response was "Do I really have to?" That reads incredibly scummy to me. Like you're trying hard to not have to come up with a claim. There's only one case that I can think of that I would immediately believe your claim, but would still scrutinize your posts to see if it were true.

@Workdawg: I've noticed that many newbie games don't actually make it to the 3 week deadline. So I don't see a problem with someone being at L-1 (specially based on the fact that he's done next to nothing) and asking for a claim. My first game had a lynch within 2 weeks each day, for example.

Unvote

As for Al, I'm hesitant. I don't see anything overly scummy with his play except for active lurking. I can see where he's trying to come across as town, but I'm still hesitant. I will not be the hammer vote on this unless I go back through his ISO/play and find something solid or someone else does the same, which I wont be able to do until tomorrow since I wont be home tonight. But with the limited evidence that we have on him, I don't like his lynch right now.

[Grimmjow]

Hungover and about to go to work, I'll get to this tonight, but I happened to come across this and figured I'd respond to it.

What "case" are you talking about here?

I'm not going to answer this. Nice attempt, though, to get me to tell you what I thought so that you could then say "yes, that's true, I'm not scum!"

[Grimmjow]

Come on guys, if you look at my play overall - I know I've been terribly non-committal this day but I honestly didn't realize that it had been two weeks since the day started. Been a busy couple weeks. When the issue first came up I was about to post "hey, it's only been five days, so what if I haven't voted yet" but then I checked the date and turns out it was two weeks ago. I'm not scum trying to avoid scumhunting here, it's just poor play. /me's desperate last defense.

It's not just being non-committal today, it's just poor play the entire game. You haven't really done... anything. You've voted Cy most of D1, you voted me D1 and made a very weak case against me today, and you've pretty much just sat back and let us do our own thing, only really popping in to sprinkle in some helpful little IC posts.

I'm not supporting your lynch... yet. I feel like there are other people out there who could be scum, and I'm going to go back through the entire thread and peoples' ISO (god, my head's hurting already) and I'll come back with thoughts.

[Grimmjow]

Ok, I've gotten through about 2/3 of Al's ISO. I can see a scumteam of VE and Al showing up, slightly in the way he responds to VE's posts. Anyone else care to go through his and look at this and tell me if they're seeing it at well.

[Grimmjow]

After finishing his ISO, I'm not too sure about that, but I can still see it VE's is next to see if I can confirm/deny that thought, though.

[Grimmjow]

No, NKs are not compulsory. In my first game, we had a no kill situation because scum forgot. That being said, it's completely possible that VE is scum. Claiming a PR that soon after the day started before anyone really had anything to say, especially when people were putting suspicion on him because of his hammer, seems really fishy. And it seems completely probable that he's scum. Especially based on his play just this day.

1) Scum chooses no kill.
2) VE's going to have suspicion on him because of his hammer.
3) VE claims JK and "blocks" some townie player to throw suspicion on him.
3.1) VE claims JK and "blocks" the scum player, and then realizes that he could have protected a townie based on what said player states, therefore

both

are "town" whereas they actually are scumbuddies trying to act like confirmed town.
4) VE suggests a mass claim as to get more information who to kill N3.

I don't actually think that the Fonz is scum. I doubt he'd be so blatant as scum as to do what I suggested in 3.1. I think 3 is more likely.

@VE: Now, as for your little "no one seemed to be doing anything at the end of D2" thing, not true, because, as I had stated previously, I was going back through ISOs and the thread to see if I could pick stuff out. And with 3 days left, I had plenty of time, since you managed to do the same thing AND "submit your night action" in the 3 days of N2. But, you managed to hammer Al, preventing me from doing that. And I find it very interesting you did that just as I was going through

your

ISO.

No. Just no. I call bullshit.

Vote: VisceraEyes

[Grimmjow]

Thing is, if we mislynch and VE is the JK, then all they have to do is target him. There's no protection on him. So we would lose. Period. Lynch scum, we still have D4. No lynch, we have D4. The only possibility with VE being JK and surviving the night is if he manages to target the scum that submits the NK. So unless we figure out who the scumteam is and VE happens to make the correct guess as to who will submit the NK, VE-JK is dead.

Note also that Visc claimed quickly, before everyone had posted. That's a town sign. If he were scum wanting to gambit, he was taking a risk by not waiting to see if anyone else claimed power first.

I can see that. I didn't think of that. It just came out of the blue and seemed really suspicious to me.

[Grimmjow]

Not so, Grimmjow - that's why I said 'use it as a blocking role.' It's possible VE could target the scum doing the kill and thus roleblock him.

Did I not already state this?

Lynch scum, we still have D4. No lynch, we have D4.

The only possibility with VE being JK and surviving the night is if he manages to target the scum that submits the NK.

So unless we figure out who the scumteam is and VE happens to make the correct guess as to who will submit the NK, VE-JK is dead.

Owait, I did.

[Grimmjow]

I believe Grimm suspects myself and Fonz and cym suspects me most as well.

I don't actually think that the Fonz is scum. I doubt he'd be so blatant as scum as to do what I suggested in 3.1. I think 3 is more likely.

Please do not try to misrepresent me as you did with JJ and the vote count on D1.

[Grimmjow]

Ugh, sleepy Grimm is sleepy. I'll do a run through of this a little later.

[Grimmjow]

I'm currently going back through ISOs like I had intended to do at the end of D2 (thanks again, VE...), and I'll post my thoughts later when I have them all written out.

FYI, likely a wall-o-text. Be forewarned...

[Grimmjow]

Sorry, guys. I thought I'd have more time than I do. I'm in the process of moving into a new place and getting all the shit together and such is taking a lot of time.

@Mod: I'm V/LA until Monday August 8

I'll be moved in Saturday, but the internet isn't going to be turned on until Monday. If, once we get moved in, I can leech internet off my neighbors (or crack them <.<) then I'll be back before Monday.

I'll still be checking in once in a while, and I'll do some work in the thread when I can. Just FYI.

[Grimmjow]

It seems I will not have access to internet from tomorrow afternoon to some time on Monday (Friday through Monday). I will not be able to do any work in the thread between now and then, since I still have a shit ton to pack up. So I'll be back in full force sometime on Monday.

[Grimmjow]

My internet is still not working. It actually won't be set up until the 19th, but I'm going to take my laptop to campus and catch up tomorrow. And I'll try to keep doing that. Sorry guys.