Mini 380: Artifacts- Game over

[Coron]

Vote: Nightfall

isn't it too early in the game for you to start trying to distance from Nai, your scum partner? It's not really good plausible denyability if it's an FoS this early.

[Coron]

Right... And FOS and a Vote on me. Fantastic.

Vote: Coron

for an obvious scum tactic of throwing suscpicion on people for an FOS and... Well, nothing.

You're just mad because I have already caught 2 scum.

[Coron]

I don't have any partners and I'm not scum, so turns out that that's not the case, scum.

[Coron]

I got all three scum voting me this quick? Man I'm good.

[Coron]

What I meant was all three mafia, my bad. In a mini it is usually fairly safe to assume 3 mafia, though there are some corner cases that have 2 sets of 2 or mountainous with just 2.

[Coron]

Guys, what's taking you so long we have all 3 mafia caught you just need to vote them.

[Coron]

[Coron]

What I meant was all three mafia, my bad. In a mini it is usually fairly safe to assume 3 mafia, though there are some corner cases that have 2 sets of 2 or mountainous with just 2.

More like a slip of the scum- um I mean tongue...

Did I say something that didn't make sense or are you just trying to make me seem bad to get a town player lynched? If it's the first could you please explain instead of being stupid. K, thnx bai.

-Coron

[Coron]

I think Coron will not.

This bandwagon does not deserve my attention, now can we get back to lynching scum?

[Coron]

Wow, I was going to say someone in this game probably should have told people that this is how I roll. I checked who is in this game and was like "wow, I know like 3 of these people" and even them I haven't played that much with. Weird.

[Coron]

You're reactions, especially Nai's have buried the needle so to speak on my scumdar.
In early game I often play for reactions, if I see something worth pursuing I go for it.
And I take offense to the playing like Fritzer comment.

unvote Vote: Nai

[Coron]

Your's to a lesser extent. Notice how I'm not voting you anymore.

[Coron]

Mod: Jules is voting 2 people by your record. Is this correct?

[Coron]

I put FOS in all my games on the person I had voted on because all the evidence was lost. We're not going to get anywhere if we don't start putting pressure on again though so I the vote went on

Putting pressure? What are you pressuring him to say or do? There's nothing for him to defend against.

Your defense of Nai is noted.

[Coron]

FoI: conflux

(finger of idiocy)

I place FoSes then later go over posts and think about it all the time. Turns out things happening isn't the only thing that effects how you play.

However you might be on to something. I will do a reread on Jules in a bit.

[Coron]

Um, it's perfectly reasonable imho. He says "I remember I was voting him, I probably had a good reason

FoS

" Then he comes back later does a reread to decide what the best lead is and

votes

It looks like you're trying to pull stuff out of your rear end.

[Coron]

Is there any reason to believe I'm not defending Jules? I find his actions reasonable, plain and simple.

[Coron]

You can tell whoever told you that that is a seriously messed up, Nai.

[Coron]

I was interperating. My interperatation did not seem like a stretch to me. You are allowed to have your opinion too.

I know I often do rereads of the threads, and often vote people based on old posts or even if their body of work is lacking.

Even if I've posted since these things have happened does not mean it's suspicious for me to vote you now.

If you find any of this incorrect that is your perogative.

[Coron]

If he was just applying pressure to any random thing there were people with 2 votes(not 1) he could have voted.

A pressure vote isn't nessisarily a baseless vote.

Also this was a hypothetical not a like "This is exactly what happened" sorry if you misinterperated that.

However I do take your point. He did not elaborate on any reasoning for it, however I still feel you're pushing way too hard over some stupid random thing.

[Coron]

I defend things I find reasonable and I will not appologize for it. If I see something I think is crappy logic I will say "HEY, THAT'S CRAPPY LOGIC". Doesn't matter if he can be seen as "defending" someone else.

[Coron]

Hi guys

[Coron]

so, back to lynching nai then?

[Coron]

You act like I haven't said why I was supicious of you ever. I choose not to repeat myself, I'm sorry.

[Coron]

You can't read the thread? I'm sorry, but I don't help people that don't help themselves.

[Coron]

Right... And FOS and a Vote on me. Fantastic.

Vote: Coron

for an obvious scum tactic of throwing suscpicion on people for an FOS and... Well, nothing.

overreaction, overdefensive.

I'm enjoying my vote on Coron, to let you know. Especially with that slip.

plays it up as a "slip" without really expanding on how it is a perfectly reasonable thing to say.

I think Coron should probably start claiming right about now.

fishing over a stupid worthless page 2 bandwagon.

My main argument is that he's far too sure of himself, and I really don't see, in any way, how he can be like that. I mean, I can see how it would be a joke to begin with that he calls me and Nightfall scum buddies (me included ONLY because Nightfall voted for me), but he hasn't let it go. That suggests to me that he has some sort of outside information here. And there's no way he would have given an item so broken as to say "You have a one-shot chance to find a scum and all his buddies", or any such thing. To hold onto a belief is playing like Fritzler, and I find that Fritz is often wrong. So...

Continued overreaction and saying he thought I might have info, he still persued trying to lynch me. For all he knows I was a cop with one guilty trying to feel out connections to my guilty result.

Overall his reactions seem similar to some I've seen by scum. Very overreactive to small things, very very jumpy play.

[Coron]

I'm not overconfident, I'm just right.

[Coron]

At post 1 I can random vote and it's PERFECTLY LEGIT.

At post 15 I can have a really stupid but not completely random reason to vote.

etc etc.

At every point I checked the case for you being scum has been good enough to place a vote.

I see no problem with this.

[Coron]

First of all, I have absolutely no idea how you are counting posts here.

Posts in the game. Those AREN'T actually things that happened in the game but rather an example of why it makes sense that I need and got more reason to vote you as the game goes on.

Second of all, you didn't even random vote ME in your first post. You built a case off of me by the reaction of mine (a humorous reaction) off of an FOS onto me.

almost everything if not everything I quoted for reasons I suspected/suspect you is before I voted you so I figure you meant that I was suspicous of you before them

And by post 15 of yours, or of anyones, it's probably time to stop random voting. Any vote at that point is not random.

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't post 15 still PAGE 1?

So you based your case off of a humored reaction from me following your FOS, and have been adding crap to it ever since to make a case. And you can't even cite the correct posts.

Honestly I have absolutely no F'ing clue what any of this means.

I also see a problem with the fact that Coron and I are the only ones posting any content whatsoever, and the rest of the game is lurking.

You and I actually agree on something.

[Coron]

Perfect... has said 3 things this entire time
Luna sort of seems confused and indecisive, but in more of a "new to this" than a "I'm scum" kind of way of what little posts we have to try to get something from.

[Coron]

Just a small note: out of 181 posts in this thread, between Nai and myself we now have 63(or something like that), or over 1/3rd. Some of the posts are even from the mod. This is pretty pathetic. We need more posts from other people, a lot.

[Coron]

Sure, I consider it scummy. Perfect would actually be a decent lynch, I mean he's said

three

things. And with Luna I compare it to the body of work (6 posts) in this game and it seems to fit in with the style that Luna seems to be using, one I find kind of newbie-like but not really scum-like.

Sure, there votes were scummy, but Nai has done that AND so many other scummy things.

[Coron]

Nightfall, there you go with your overdefensiveness again, he said he'd like to hear more from you not that you were scum.

[Coron]

HackerHuck, that's a good post, Now if you could like put them in order of suspicion afterwords it would be greatly apreciated.

Also, Nai, two and four on that list are

assumptions

you made to try to make me look bad, and if you take a closer look, it is in theory possible to seemingly very improbable that things worked the way you say.
1 is true and I have no problem with.
2 you're saying I don't have a reason even though in the post I stated the general reason WHICH I BACKED UP LATER WHEN PRESSED ON IT.
3 it's not a 'lack of a reason' but other than that I was acting that way because I DID have a reason.
4 Again you're making the assumption that I didn't have a reason in the first place and I'm just making up this stuff that fits withing the originally given discription on the spot.

So, if you want to try to tell me how my backing to my arguement doesn't fit my original description I will hear it, but these baseless assumptions have to stop.
For reference, the post where I switched my vote to Nai:

You're reactions, especially Nai's have buried the needle so to speak on my scumdar.
In early game I often play for reactions, if I see something worth pursuing I go for it.
And I take offense to the playing like Fritzer comment.

unvote Vote: Nai

[Coron]

ALL FOUR OF THE POSTS THAT I QUOTED LATER WERE

BEFORE[/b

I VOTED YOU.

This means I was talking not just the one post, but ALL of those reactions into account.

Stewie I'm trying to figure out how the premise of overreacting or overdefensiveness being scummy can be seen as "overreacting" please enlighten me.

You don't think these are scum tells? You think I should just throw these scum tells out the window? I don't really understand.

very mild FoS: Stewie

[Coron]

man, I'm bad with tags.

[Coron]

My case on him has been built on the fact that he is overconfident, and his building a case off of nothing is part of that.

It's worth noting that, when Coron was defending Jules before, Jules is defending him now.

You've repeatedly said I've built a case off nothing without in any way backing this up dispite my repeated protesting that you were saying things without backing them up.

And, yes, I suppose that would be interesting to note.

To some degree even to me, if nothing else for future reference.

[Coron]

That's vaguely correct.

[Coron]

oh yes actually I remember something I had seen in a reread.
In Nai's fourth post this appears:

My main argument is that he's far too sure of himself, and I really don't see, in any way, how he can be like that. I mean, I can see how it would be a joke to begin with that he calls me and Nightfall scum buddies (me included ONLY because Nightfall voted for me), but he hasn't let it go.

That suggests to me that he has some sort of outside information here.

And there's no way he would have given an item so broken as to say "You have a one-shot chance to find a scum and all his buddies", or any such thing. To hold onto a belief is playing like Fritzler, and I find that Fritz is often wrong. So...

Bolding mine.
So, why would she think I have outside information? Guilty concience much?
Also, I don't see why it would be out of the question for me to have been cop/tracker/whatever, and trying to get reactions from people in conjunction with my result. Even without it I don't see how it's at all out of the question for me to be trying to get reactions.
Basically the idea is this: I threw out a completely oddball theory, acted sure of myself and saw how people reacted. Nai reacted EXACTLY like RUH ROH THIS GUY KNOWS SOMETHING BETTER GET RID OF HIM.
Of course you're free to have your own opinions on this, but yeah.

[Coron]

[sarcasm]Alright! Why don't we play mafia this way? LET'S ALL BE FRIENDS AND NOT ACCUSE ANYONE OF BEING SCUM AND SIT HERE AND STAGNATE FOR 3 MONTHS! Once all that is done the mod will put a 5 day deadline down and productivity will be up 600% for that but we'll still only get about 30 posts in that time and end up lynching someone mostly randomly. I love that style of play man. I wish we had more of that around here.[/sarcasm]

[Coron]

Well, of course. I did have something to base my reasoning off of, at that point in the game THERE WAS NOTHING BETTER TO BASE MY VOTE OFF OF. Completely random off the wall speculation.

People always are telling me to explain my vote, so I did, I walked you through my thought process.

[Coron]

oh yes actually I remember something I had seen in a reread.
In Nai's fourth post this appears:

My main argument is that he's far too sure of himself, and I really don't see, in any way, how he can be like that. I mean, I can see how it would be a joke to begin with that he calls me and Nightfall scum buddies (me included ONLY because Nightfall voted for me), but he hasn't let it go.

That suggests to me that he has some sort of outside information here.

And there's no way he would have given an item so broken as to say "You have a one-shot chance to find a scum and all his buddies", or any such thing. To hold onto a belief is playing like Fritzler, and I find that Fritz is often wrong. So...

Bolding mine.
So, why would she think I have outside information? Guilty concience much?
Also, I don't see why it would be out of the question for me to have been cop/tracker/whatever, and trying to get reactions from people in conjunction with my result. Even without it I don't see how it's at all out of the question for me to be trying to get reactions.
Basically the idea is this: I threw out a completely oddball theory, acted sure of myself and saw how people reacted. Nai reacted EXACTLY like RUH ROH THIS GUY KNOWS SOMETHING BETTER GET RID OF HIM.
Of course you're free to have your own opinions on this, but yeah.

A few notes:
1. I find it perfectly reasonable to assume that you have some sort of information. If, for no apparent reason, you are sure Nai is scum, then it follows that you have some extra information (either that or you are nuts ). Cop sounds unlikely because, as Nai explained in the very same post you quoted, you didn't just say that Nai was scum, but that Nightfall was scum with him. Furthermore, given that being so confident with no apparent reason, and that it follows that you have extra information, it would not be a smart thing for a cop/tracker/whatever to let the scum know, because scum like to get rid of anyone with any extra information, other than themselves.

Ok, I guess it was one big point.

1. I find it unreasonable to assume I had some sort of information or especially information on more than one other person.
A. If I had info on more than one person, I'd just make the game about half over right now by claiming that info.
B. If I were scum or cop I wouldn't nessisarily want to out myself by doing something I wouldn't normally do(see: other games where Coron has done this)
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2793 - Technically I was cop, but I didn't have a result. Guy turned up scum.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2498 - Doctor, guy didn't turn up scum but wouldn't have been a bad lynch anyway...
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2363 - Nurse, guy was town.
I'm sure there are more examples all over, but these were the ones I could remember to look up.
2. As tracker/Cop/whatever one might press for info THEN claim, before the day is over so they can get any possible protection from doctors.

[Coron]

Oh, come on. It would be impossible to be THAT much like that without thinking about it conciously. I would act differently as cop or scum the same way. The idea is that it DOESN'T mean ANYTHING that I do that. Actually off hand I can not remember any instances of me doing this as scum in forum mafia, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't or even haven't, that's for sure.

The idea is to generate discussion, often games die in the first 4-5 pages and it's hard to get intrest restored. By making accusations I both jumpstart the game AND get information that will help later in the game. It also allows me to do the same thing as cop without giving away the fact that I am cop.

I believe that for a defense by playstyle you MUST have 2 things: 1) show your track record of doing this thing and 2) be willing and able to defend your playstyle.

I believe that I have now done both of these.

[Coron]

Mild FoS: SL

[Coron]

Why should you limit your search to my cheerleaders?
Either say he's the scummiest in the game or don't vote for him.

[Coron]

You call him that.[/bible reference]

[Coron]

Kelly Chen: I don't agree with the term cheerleaders... after all I haven't noticed them leading any cheers, but it was clear what group you were talking about, and to avoid confusion I adopted your terminology.

[Coron]

Stop lobbing them right over the plate and I'll stop wanting to hit homers.

I take it kelly doesn't we want me to respond to that question posed to HackerHuck.

[Coron]

Unless you think it's likely that the Nai-Coron thing was a distancing tactic then every % chance Coron is scum is a % chance Nai *isn't*.

[Coron]

you're missing a word there I think: "Almost ______ is scum?"

[Coron]

Scumminess=likelyhood of being scum.

[Coron]

You don't disagree with what I said? then how do you explain you comment?

[Coron]

Honestly, I do not see the distinction.

[Coron]

though, since I'm assuming there's a 3 person mafia (given the game size).

OMFG!!! IT'S A SCUM SLIP LOLZ.

Though I would like an explanation of what you mean by "playing for coron most of the game".

Not that I'm denying it true, not yet at least, since I do not yet understand what you mean by it.

[Coron]

Strikethru is generally used when you're making a joke so pretty much if you read it as "I guess that puts you in the probably scum category" it's funny and joke like, while what he seriously means is what is not struckthru.

[Coron]

I find it ironic that Nai brings up the term Ad Hominem.

[Coron]

Hm, I don't see how any of his attacks were even as directly attacking your characters as your attacks on my playstyle.

[Coron]

Stewie, no, I don't find that being typical newbie scum play. I see that as a player ACTUALLY MAKING SENSE FOR ONCE.

As for the ad hominem arguement:

Sure, he did mention that you had the memory of a goldfish, but he also presented the reasons that allowed him to come to this conclusion, he told you exactly why what you're saying is wrong and THEN moved on to the personal attacks. That might be unfriendly play(which honestly I might do a bit much of myself) but it's not ad hominem and it's not scummy.

IMHO we have a perfectly reasonable reason for him to change his FOS to a vote if we think instead of not thinking, if you want me to quote the post where I explain it I can, but I feel you are likely capable of finding it yourself.

[Coron]

And, Coron, it doesn't matter if he gave reason for attacking me. The "what does a priest know about marriage?" bit is an ad hominem, but it's a logical question, since a priest probably never got married. However, it's an attack on the person, trying to remove the support from their argument by making the person seem unfit to give that argument. And that's what he was doing by 'memory of a goldfish', and THEN, when I said that it was posts lost in the crash, his tune changed.

No, no, this would be an attack on the person: He has in the past based his arguements on things that didn't happen.
or maybe..
In the past he has done exactly this same thing.

That was NOT a clear example of ad hominem, because it isn't EVADING dealing with the content by attacking the person, it's taking information gained from his response to the content to attack the person.

These are too very different things.

[Coron]

Yeah, sorry stewie, I was replying from memory and forgot that bit. No, I do not really think it is overreaction.

Also, Nai, he shouldn't really have to defend something that *didn't* happen.

Maybe it did happen, I don't really remember anything that happened during the crash, and I certainly wouldn't expect him to so I don't really find it scummy that he didn't remember that.

[Coron]

As far as I'm concerned anything that happened during the crash at this point might as well have not happened.

[Coron]

That's fine. But the issue is not whether we'll take it in-game or not. The issue is that he actively denied, then said 'maybe'. It's being wishy-washy about it, in addition to trying to evade my statements about him. He's been trying to discredit the statements BEFORE responding to them.

Yes, it might have happened because HE DOESN'T REMEMBER.

Also it seems your trying to pull me further into defending him and less into attacking your attack. Quit acting like I should defend all his actions (even if many of them are reasonable).

[Coron]

Which he supposed didn't happen I suppose would have been more correct.

[Coron]

Jules, do you have any artifacts? You did not mention that with your claim.

[Coron]

I have never said that I remember them because I don't

If this is the case, why did you suddenly brake on the argument when you were challenged?

Also, one more thing, can you stop responding to posts in seperate posts? No offense or anything, but it's kind of annoying.

I understood exactly what he was saying when he said that.

Also, to discuss, should he tell us what he had and passed on? What can you think of that this would hurt? How about help?

[Coron]

I understood exactly what he was saying when he said that.

One other thing I forgot to adress is that I don't understand what you mean be 'he' or what 'he' said. Can you clarify?

the quote that you seemingly misunderstood. To me right now it seems like you are pulling things out of your rear end now.

[Coron]

Yes, which is why I used the past tense.

[Coron]

Ass.

[Coron]

If Jules is in fact telling the truth, then it wouldn't surprize me if someone had the ear of the diviner.

That's a given, do you mean the mouth of the diviner maybe?

[Coron]

"This game contains several artifacts (items); I'll explain here how they work in general, but the description of individual artifacts can override this default explanation, though. Unless an artifact's description states otherwise, using it is a night action. If the description starts with

"You may" means each player may use that artifact once

. If it starts with "Once in the game, you may", that's once for the artifact for the entire game; once it's been used, the artifact either becomes useless or disappears."

[Coron]

The question is not only whether he would get the artifact if he were scum, it was whether he would pass it on. It sort of WIFOMs but, there is a definate tangible advantage to scum from having this not circulate.

[Coron]

SL, then they simply wouldn't use it.

[Coron]

You mean the Ear? There's no mention of 'must be passed on' in the general rules.

Would you please address this SL

[Coron]

That doesn't mean he has to pass it.

[Coron]

Can we get back to pressuring Nai?

[Coron]

Who's "we"? You and Jules?

The town, a subset of which I believe to be Jules and Coron.

[Coron]

as far as I recall I have not recently taken a look at any players other than jules(I'm about due a reread), though Nai hasn't done much to ease my worries about him. I of course know I'm scum and don't think Jules is scum and do think Nai is scum, beyond that you'll have to wait until at the very least after my finals tomorrow, I have lot's of studying and essay writing to do today.

[Coron]

Wow, Lot of posts, honestly I didn't read all the way through all of them, but I did notice the mistype discussion thing.
Eh, I type too slow and I think to fast so I forget to put in words or mix up words a lot.
For instance:
From Scenes normal mini 264

2) Saying the town would like to kill a cop or a doc might have been a freudian slip.

While this clearly isn't a fruedian slip(rather it's just plain wrong), it has the same reason.
In case you were wondering I was cop in this game and played fairly well(though lost due to Adele messing up endgame *shakes fist*

AFAIR I have never actually had one of these "slips" as scum.

Time to go back over the rest of those posts.

[Coron]

Ok so nothing really worthwhile happened just a bunch of fluffy worthless posts.

Will do a reread on certain players sometime in the next 2 days hopefully.

[Coron]

LA until Sunday/monday.

[Coron]

Was the initial 'all three scum are voting for me' post made exclusively and entirely to get reactions? Once this is answered I can continue this comment.

Pretty much but not entirely(I mean there is a chance, certainly not ruling it out even now)

FoI(finger of idiocy) was NOT an FOS I came up with FoI because I didn't want it to be an FoS. I was not saying it was suspicious I was saying it was STUPID.

I count an attack on the arguement used to attack someone as a defense of that person. It really makes sense to me.

This post makes me seriously think that there is in fact some mechanic based reason that Coron wants Nai to be killed. Now, he's attacking Stewie, who is attacking a Jules, who is voting for Nai.

This is way more convoluted logic than that used by me to say Stewie was defending Nai.

And he ends with another Ad Hominem. I think at this point I may well have to concede and chalk it up to playstyle.

It's not ad hominem if I'm saying his actions rather than he himself is wrong, correct me if I'm wrong.

[Coron]

I count an attack on the arguement used to attack someone as a defense of that person. It really makes sense to me.

So if I point out craplogic in your accusation of someone, I'm defending them? This is bad play, since if I think the person you're accusing is scum, I would never want to point out the bad logic. Not a pro-town way to think.

So, you're saying that we shouldn't note things that are true? Are you saying it's not defending? I'm confused here, personally I'm all for truth.

This is way more convoluted logic than that used by me to say Stewie was defending Nai.

What I'm saying here is that the ends of almost all your posts is to discredit or attack Nai. I note that you're attacking people who are attacking opponents of Nai.

I was just noting it not using it to draw a conclusion or anything, just noting, so mine was doing even less than yours.

It's not ad hominem if I'm saying his actions rather than he himself is wrong, correct me if I'm wrong.

The way you're saying it appears somewhat insulting. I wouldn't have noticed anything if you had said it as such: "I think that you may be making up arguments," or at least something to that extent. Not necessarily true ad hominem, but fundamentally similar.

Ok I guess I understand what you're saying.

[Coron]

[qoute]Also Coron: What do you think about my comments on Nai's posts?[/quote] If I had a problem with them I would have mentioned it. Some of it looks VERY similar to some stuff I've already said.

In addition Coron, if we've now established that your 'all three scum' post was made to draw reactions, why did you immediately jump to defend it rather than let it run its course and read the reactions later? And why didn't your earlier defense state explicitly that this post in particular was intended to garner reactions?

I think somewhere in my later posts I do mention it, but it really shouldn't have been hard to figure out imho, there is no way I'm sure on three scum by that point in the game. Sure, I found them suspicious to varying degrees but yeah.

[Coron]

man, I'm bad at quote tags.

[Coron]

if the questions are retarded or already answered I definately have no problem with Z cutting in there.

[Coron]

That's in response to the last sentence of Nai's post by the way. So, it looks like Coron is admitting he was defending Jules, although I guess this could be kind of a corner case, so Coron: could you clarify whether or not you were in fact admitting to defending Jules?

Yes. Facts are facts, I was infact defending him. I also have no problem with this fact(especially now that I'm even more sure he's protown).

"So, why would she think I have outside information? Guilty concience much?"

Craplogic if I ever heard it. Yeah, lets turn everyone's attacks against them because they have a guilty concience. This =/= Logic.

why would he think I have some sort of information that would make him look bad? Probably because he realizes it's a realistic situation. You think about that situation more as scum because you are worried you just got nailed by a cop. In your earlier analysis as I recall you even do mention that he keeps going back to the point that I seemed to have information. Why are you attacking me for pointing out something that it seems that you pointed out yourself?

"Also, I don't see why it would be out of the question for me to have been cop/tracker/whatever, and trying to get reactions from people in conjunction with my result."

Noting that this is the second time Coron has thrown out this scenario.

..because it's reasonable

"Even without it I don't see how it's at all out of the question for me to be trying to get reactions."

Again, this falls under my previous argument of him waiting about until pages later to explain, and his hasty defense which sounds more like a slip and less like fishing for reactions.

you mind clarifying wtf you're talking about?

"I threw out a completely oddball theory, acted sure of myself and saw how people reacted."

What oddball theory? Your random vote? It's quite clear to me that it was in fact random, and you saying otherwise sounds like a retrospective revision.

it can't be both? Now you're being closed minded.

"Nai reacted EXACTLY like RUH ROH THIS GUY KNOWS SOMETHING BETTER GET RID OF HIM."

Uh-huh, everyone who Random Votes for someone is a cop with a guilty result.

I acted a lot more sure of my random vote than most people and Nai hasn't played with me so Nai did not know that was one of my things that I do, it would be easy to mistake that for an information role with a result.


It seemed to me Nightfall is arguing against my playstyle of voicing my primary opinions at any point in the game loudly to keep the game from stagnating too much. I feel it is better to have a little bit of bandwagoning that a lot of lurking(even if it is on me, you could definately find better targets though). Most people don't respond to a FoS at that point in the game by getting all hyper and angry and bad about it.

It's a page one FoS

if you're protown there is no way that he's a cop with information on you or your partner(since unless you're mason you probably don't have one), but if you are scum there is that chance that it's the cop. This is basically why the reaction as scum is different than the reaction as town.

[Coron]

Tough crowd. I just saw that he said he was eager to hear from me.

How is that suspicious?

Have you ever heard of a joke?

[Coron]

why would he think I have some sort of information that would make him look bad? Probably because he realizes it's a realistic situation. You think about that situation more as scum because you are worried you just got nailed by a cop. In your earlier analysis as I recall you even do mention that he keeps going back to the point that I seemed to have information. Why are you attacking me for pointing out something that it seems that you pointed out yourself?

This would have been a most excellent thing to say in that post back there. However, you said absolutely none of this. The only thing you said is that he has a 'guilty concience' (which implies that you think he has info). Unfortunately, I'm not buying it. Had you stated your ideas in a logical way, they would've made sense.

Sorry for implying that he know's he's scum. That is unless you mean something else. This was basically an expansion of the "guilty concience" comment, since I believe this is the first time someone has asked for clarification I do not see what your problem is.

..because it's reasonable

Let me clarify. It's the second time you threw out that argument with almost the exact same wording. Which really sounds like breadcrumbing to me.

I can find you another game where I did something similar and was definately not cop or other investigation role. If you want me to find it for you I can.

you mind clarifying wtf you're talking about?

Alright, I think my wording here isn't the best, so here's the full case:

Coron claims that his 'slip' post (where he claims that there are 3 scum) was in fact intended to fish for reactions. I do not believe this for two reasons:

1) Coron waits until pages later to actually say this. I'm not sure what the purpose of waiting that long would be, since direct reactions to the slip probably stopped around the third or fourth page.

2) Very soon after the 'slip,' Coron hastilly posts two posts (one after another) in his defense, in a very desperate fashion. If you are truly looking for reactions as you claim, then you would not have needed to have defended yourself.

The 'slip' was NOT pressing for reactions, the 'slip' was me making an assumption that is while not 100% confirmed, not too bad of a guess(I'd say around 95% accuracy). My attacks on the three in particular, in connection to each other was fishing for reactions.

it can't be both? Now you're being closed minded.

If it's actually a serious theory (no matter how strange it is), then it's not a *random* vote. But if it is, in fact, a random vote, then you're not basing it on a theory.

AH I see what you're saying, and NO it was clearly NOT a true random vote I did NOT go to random.org or any similar sites, no dice were used, it was not even psuedorandom. It was taking the best lead I saw so far(which was almost nothing) and voting based on it. I was thinking that you were meaning "random vote" in that it was a vote during the portion of the game where there is little to no information to vote off of, which is in fact the case.

I acted a lot more sure of my random vote than most people and Nai hasn't played with me so Nai did not know that was one of my things that I do, it would be easy to mistake that for an information role with a result.

But if he has never played with you, then why would Nai try metagaming tricks like this? A lot of people act sure with their random votes to add humor.

I haven't actually seen this done often by people other than me, Internet Stranger(before your time I think), and a couple others.

[pre-post edit] Actually, it looks like Nai did play with you in Kirby Mafia. So that statement is not correct.

I posted like two times or something in that before being replaced(I think), and I didn't use this tactic(again as far as I recall), it is not suprising that I do not remember this.

It seemed to me Nightfall is arguing against my playstyle of voicing my primary opinions at any point in the game loudly to keep the game from stagnating too much. I feel it is better to have a little bit of bandwagoning that a lot of lurking(even if it is on me, you could definately find better targets though). Most people don't respond to a FoS at that point in the game by getting all hyper and angry and bad about it. It's a page one FoS if you're protown there is no way that he's a cop with information on you or your partner(since unless you're mason you probably don't have one), but if you are scum there is that chance that it's the cop. This is basically why the reaction as scum is different than the reaction as town.

If the scum were that damn paranoid, then this game would be way too easy. Scum are not going to make it apparent when you random vote. Because probability says that you will get random voted by one person during the random vote phase.

it wasn't a random vote and it didn't look like a random vote, in fact it wasn't even a VOTE on Nai, so this is all getting kind of silly with talking about it as a vote, it was a vote on Nightfall and a FoS on Nai. Also, what keeps the mafia from being that paranoid if you don't nail them when they do. Also, I find, often yes they are that paranoid.

First, a very interesting post by Coron:

Unless you think it's likely that the Nai-Coron thing was a distancing tactic then every % chance Coron is scum is a % chance Nai *isn't*.

I do not like this post, as it ties in almost perfectly with my scum-scum theory. This post is most certainly noted.

Perfectly reasonable, I aplaud your efforts. What I said is true anyway, though, but clearly you think it was a distancing tactic.

Coron:

Scumminess=likelyhood of being scum.

Makin' generalizations.

Sorry for stating a definition?

Strikethru is generally used when you're making a joke so pretty much if you read it as "I guess that puts you in the probably scum category" it's funny and joke like, while what he seriously means is what is not struckthru.

Um, can you STOP ANSWERING QUESTIONS FOR OTHER PEOPLE!!??

As soon as you stop being a complete and utter retard(ad hominem for any of you people keeping track). To me it was 99.9% likely that what I said was exactly what he meant, and seriously, it you think he's going to slip up on something like "what does this strikethru mean" you might as well go back to newbie games.(sorry, that's very very very ad hominem, but I can't help myself, the comment is so retarded).

Stewie, no, I don't find that being typical newbie scum play. I see that as a player ACTUALLY MAKING SENSE FOR ONCE.

As for the ad hominem arguement:

Sure, he did mention that you had the memory of a goldfish, but he also presented the reasons that allowed him to come to this conclusion, he told you exactly why what you're saying is wrong and THEN moved on to the personal attacks. That might be unfriendly play(which honestly I might do a bit much of myself) but it's not ad hominem and it's not scummy.

IMHO we have a perfectly reasonable reason for him to change his FOS to a vote if we think instead of not thinking, if you want me to quote the post where I explain it I can, but I feel you are likely capable of finding it yourself.

What is the deal with the connection between Coron and Jules? Coron has gone out of his way to defend Jules twice now, with as far as I can tell no direct benefit to him. If one of them comes up scum, it would be a very good idea to take a very close look at the other.

I believe I benefit because I think Jules is town.

A post by Jules:

Posts 297-299

Not sure what to say to Stewie's. It comes over strongly and it was intended to come over strongly. My reaction was that Nai this was scum trying to make me look like scum. What other reaction do you expect when someone has posted evidence against you and it's completely false?

Just for the record - I have only completed 1 game on here, in which I was town

Discrediting Nai's arguments again in the first paragraph by out and calling them false again with no explaination. Second paragraph looks like it falls under this under 'Gambler's Fallacy.'

I would respond to this idiocy if you wouldn't get mad at me for it. Actually I would have to go over the specifics of what happened in the posts leading up to it, but as a recall, the gambler thing is an idiotic comment.

Hey! Nice of you to tell us that now! Sounds like a great claim revision. Unfortunately, townies don't suddenly change their claims.

turns out he didn't. (damnit, you're probably going to get mad at me again)

The only point he has in his favor is this (from SL who replaced luna):

I can confirm luna receiving that artifact at the end of Night 1.

Which is a pretty big point, too.

Biggest. Point. Ever.

I understood exactly what he was saying when he said that.

One other thing I forgot to adress is that I don't understand what you mean be 'he' or what 'he' said. Can you clarify?

the quote that you seemingly misunderstood. To me right now it seems like you are pulling things out of your rear end now.[/quote]

More ad hominem...[/quote] except I've explained why it's not. It's being mean, not ad homing(to ad hominem). You have me on "being mean and saying exactly what he thinks about things", but usually I find that honesty is a strong protown trait.

Coron in Response:

Who's "we"? You and Jules?

The town, a subset of which I believe to be Jules and Coron.

Trying to generalize as town and gain people's attention. Also suggesting more links between Jules and himself.

do you think I'm scum with him and am just that retarded? Do you think one of us is scum latching onto the other? I mean the whole both of us are scum thing should probably be considered less credible(by far) than my point about Nai's reaction.

I honestly don't think you're scum that much GreenLiquid I think you're just playing very poorly in your suspicions, suspecting both me(who I know to be protown) and jules(who I feel maybe 90% sure is protown).

[Coron]

Because you seem to be nitpicking everything GreenLiquid, the "biggest. Point. Ever." thing was an exageration(perhaps even a hyperbole), but it is a rather big point.

Also, it turns out I'm bad with tags.

[Coron]

"Was the initial 'all three scum are voting for me' post made exclusively and entirely to get reactions? Once this is answered I can continue this comment." My post was not made because I wanted to have a 'slip', so your logic doesn't hold here, sorry. I answered the question as presented.

And yes, guilty concience does have the same meaning it's just very condensed. Guilty Concience means pretty much "feeling like you're being attacked for something because you should be attacked for something", with a little bit of reading comprehension it can easily be figured out how this connects to my explanation. I reallly don't like filling the thread with stupid stuff that people should be able to figure out, but you seem to me making me do it and then claiming that I should have wasted a whole bunch of everyone else's time earlier by insulting their intellegence and overexplaining.

Did I ever tell you that IS is my lord and savior? If not, IS is my Lord and Savior.

If I feel a question is a question of clarification instead of a question of like, content I will help clarify obvious things that someone else might not have noticed. I really see no problem with this and you will not make me change my opinion on this topic. I figured there was no reason for you to waste your time posting that they were logical falicies if I could point it out myself and have it done with, also if i point out that they are logical falicies people won't mistake them for real logic so it becomes less of a problem when pointed out.

Also, I'm still not answering that thing you directed at Jules because you'll still get all up in my face and I don't really feel like giving you more reasons to get up in my face, and I'm sure Jules can handle it on his own if things transpired the way I think they did.

Also he posted that he was a plain townie with no powers, he did not say ANYTHING about Artifacts, so he did not actually change his claim, in fact he claimed his role(that's what a roleclaim is right?), just not anything about artifacts. Also, saying after it was after a lot of prodding might be an exageration, it was fairly quickly after his claim that he told us about his artifact.

Sorry, but for that last little bit, I'm not understanding what you mean by guilt by association to set up a double mislynch. Guilt by association is where one person is scum so the second person is scum, right? I'm not sure exactly how this at all applies to a double mislynch. Maybe I am misunderstanding you.

I think Jules is protown because he has made reasonable posts(for the most part) and has had some really stupid worthless acuisations against him. I go out of my way to defend him because I think he's town. I may or may not have cards I am not showing.

This last post was "wow this guy is posting some really bad stuff and I want to vote him for that" then I realized man, some of this stuff is really really stupid, but not scummy stupid, just protown stupid so I probably shouldn't vote for him.

It is me posting as I am thinking, which is something I tend to do, though I do see what you're saying with appeal to emotion/blackmailing, I've definately had that one used against me in the past to varying degrees of success.

[Coron]

"Was the initial 'all three scum are voting for me' post made exclusively and entirely to get reactions? Once this is answered I can continue this comment." My post was not made because I wanted to have a 'slip', so your logic doesn't hold here, sorry. I answered the question as presented.

Your answer at said that most of the intent was to gain reactions. In your latest post, you now say that no part of it was to gain reactions. Simply put, your story's changed.

This is a lie, in my latest post I specifically say my post was not made for the purpose of the 'slip' it was made for the purpose of calling all three of them scum. Calling all three of them scum was to get reactions. So, the post was made to get reactions, but the 'slip' was not intended to get reactions. The 'slip' (that I claimed there were 3 scum without proof, just so we all are talking about the same thing), just sort of happened.

And yes, guilty concience does have the same meaning it's just very condensed. Guilty Concience means pretty much "feeling like you're being attacked for something because you should be attacked for something", with a little bit of reading comprehension it can easily be figured out how this connects to my explanation. I reallly don't like filling the thread with stupid stuff that people should be able to figure out, but you seem to me making me do it and then claiming that I should have wasted a whole bunch of everyone else's time earlier by insulting their intellegence and overexplaining.

Guilty concience, though, isn't a very logical term. When I read it, my mind jumped to the practical term 'guilty concience.' You can't explain something many pages later and remove all doubt, but I will give you the benefit of the doubt on this one.

you better punk, now get off my lawn.

Also he posted that he was a plain townie with no powers, he did not say ANYTHING about Artifacts, so he did not actually change his claim, in fact he claimed his role(that's what a roleclaim is right?), just not anything about artifacts. Also, saying after it was after a lot of prodding might be an exageration, it was fairly quickly after his claim that he told us about his artifact.

But this seems like a blantant attempt to get out of claiming any artifact whatsoever. Notice how many details of his claim (including the artifact) were only given after someone else asked specifically for that detail. The first claim was nothing short of misleading.

Artifacts are a totally separate thing from role, I don't find it misleading. I realized immediately that he had not mentioned artifacts and then asked the question. It wasn't misleading unless you're really dull.

Sorry, but for that last little bit, I'm not understanding what you mean by guilt by association to set up a double mislynch. Guilt by association is where one person is scum so the second person is scum, right? I'm not sure exactly how this at all applies to a double mislynch. Maybe I am misunderstanding you.

By Guilt by Association, a scumbag can set up a link with another innocent player. Then, after his death, the town lynches the other player for being so closely linked to the scum. This is one of the ways scum can really screw a town (oftentimes in endgame, too).

so you weren't talking at all about a double mislynch, that's what confused me. So if you think I am trying to set you guys up for a mislynch of Jules(or vice versa), why do you suspect both Jules and myself so highly?

[Coron]

It sounds like you are trying to wiggle out of contradicting yourself by getting into semantics.

it sounds like you were wrong and I was right, you see that but still do not want to give up your point for some reason.

If you're a vanilla townie, the fact that you started with an artifact IS your role. I'm not sure how hard that is to comprehend.

because it's not.

[Coron]

My suspicions line up something like this.

Probable scum:
Nai

Scummy:
Nightfall
Machiavellian-Mafia (Replacing Stewie)

Slightly scummy:
Kelly Chen (Replacing perfect62834)

Neutral:
CrashTextDummie (Replacing conflux)
HackerHuck
ShadowLurker (Replacing lunalovegood)
Zindaras

Probable town:
Jules
GreenLiquid

Town:
Coron

[Coron]

Right, so now we have a plan, we lynch Nai, if Nai ends up scum(probable) we take a serious look at both Zindaras
See the arguement he makes claiming that the arguement between Nai and Coron seems like an arguement between 2 townies. I've seen scum use this arguement so many times.
And Nightfall
a lot of the reactions I saw that were suspicious had something to do with nightfall as well.

Zindaras and CTD both look more suspicious to me due to recent posts.

[Coron]

Use that arguement to try to divert attention away from their scum buddy that is.

[Coron]

However, I'm not particularly afraid of your assertion that I should be lynched if Nai comes up scum, as I trust my gut on this issue.

Misrepresenting me.

[Coron]

Right, so now we have a plan, we lynch Nai,

if Nai ends up scum(probable)

we take a serious look at both Zindaras.

Seriously scum, quit trying to fake stupidity too seem like a town player.

[Coron]

Is the corollary also true? If we lynch you and you turn up scum, does that also mean we should aim our next lynch at Zindaras? The more you two go at it, the more appealing this scenario becomes...

Huh? This doesn't make any sense at all.

Actually it makes plenty of sense, and from a 3rd person perspective(not from a first person perspective as know I am town), yes, if that happened it would raise the likelyhood zindaras was scum imho, though the fact that I pointed that out might actually decrease that.

[Coron]

Is the corollary also true? If we lynch you and you turn up scum, does that also mean we should aim our next lynch at Zindaras? The more you two go at it, the more appealing this scenario becomes...

Huh? This doesn't make any sense at all.

Coron understood what I was trying to say. My point was only that the reasoning behind Coron's plan would also support a lynch of Coron.

I wasn't using it as a reason to lynch Nai, I already have plenty of those, this is a plan for AFTER that.

[Coron]

CTD's big post just looked false or forced or something like that is all.

[Coron]

++ increase suspicion of Nightfall for this post:

Zind, I've just been looking over some posts and I wanted to ask something...

You state that you are 99% sure that Kelly/Perfect is scum and 80% sure that Shadow is scum.

If we were to lynch either of them with the terms that if they came up town we would lynch you tommorrow, would you be willing to do that?

[Coron]

Because it is scummy?

[Coron]

Maybe now would be a good time for a claim, activity seems to be dying off.

[Coron]

That sounds like a lame cop-out lie.

[Coron]

The point is that he claimed an artifact that couldn't be passed, it seems if scum had artifacts that is exactly what they would want to claim, heck even if they didn't have an artifact maybe even. With the uncertainty of who it blocks it makes it even less believable.

[Coron]

The point is that he claimed an artifact that couldn't be passed, it seems if scum had artifacts that is exactly what they would want to claim,

"I have a scum-assisting artifact that can't even be given to anyone else"? That kind of stinks doesn't it? If it means avoiding a lynch I think it would be much better to leave the possibility of handing the item off.

With the uncertainty of who it blocks it makes it even less believable.

You don't think he has that item at all? What's his plan when we ask him to use the item and nothing happens? It clearly should have some effect on

somebody

.

Well, maybe it doesn't effect the cop, tracker, etc, it only effects the mafia, the doc, and the roleblocker or something like that. What if it only blocks roles that can't prove they were blocked? What then?

I think it is VERY believeable that he would make this claim as:
A) mafia with this
B) mafia with a multishot power like this.
I find it somewhat believeable that he would claim this as:
C) mafia without an artifact.

Also I would contest that this ability, depending on who it effects is not nesissarily in the best interest of scum, but rather might help town.

Oh and One time use lines up perfectly with a passable multiuse item he doesn't want to pass.

[Coron]

I also don't see why you'd think a mass-role-block would be passable. If it was, either scum or town could put the other side into a complete standstill over and over, if the passes were done right.

Surely it could be passable without being multi-use.

Tisk Tisk, answering stuff for me, scummy.

[Coron]

You can pass an artifact without using it.

[Coron]

multiuse aka, you can pass it once you use it.

[Coron]

I'd argue that it IS scummy that he claims that it isnt passable because:
A) scum with it and it is unpassable will want to claim it's unpassable
B) scum with it and it is passable will want to claim it's unpassable so they don't have to pass it off.

[Coron]

So, in other words, Coron, there's no possibly scenario in which I could be town with an item that I say I have? Bravo. Trying to shut off any discussion of me possibly being town.

I do not feel it is nesissary to respond to this because it is such a complete misrepresentation of what I said(and also what I meant) that it almost has to be intentional.

[Coron]

It is obvious when you would do this as town(as long as you're not completely and utterly retarded), so I feel no need to comment on that. I instead comment on something... you know... substantial and meaningful.

Sorry if that's wrong.

[Coron]

He said he doesn't know who it would block he said it blocks people who have to go outside.

[Coron]

Yes, all things are not equal, by eliminating this item they have a large oportunity cost. They could potentially kill someone with a perhaps more powerful ability.

[Coron]

FoS: people not voting

Not helpful, not helpful at all.

[Coron]

HH was SK, how would that implicate Zindaras.

[Coron]

vote: Nai

[Coron]

Nothing has changed since yesterday.

[Coron]

You mean like a role ability or an artifact?

Nai, I didn't strongly doubt yesterday that you could stop all actions for one night.

[Coron]

Yes, Nai, I do think it is very plausable that scum would start with such an artifact and or ability.

[Coron]

I did not start with an artifact with "diviner" in it.

[Coron]

Mod, with all respect, it's only been 2 weeks or so since the day started, even thinking of imposing a deadline this early is near bastard-modish, especially since there are three people who have not posted since the day started(I think). Right now a deadline would be set far far too soon.

[Coron]

Don't give me that crap, we have 30 pages of information.

[Coron]

As far as I recall this thread has been very on topic. So I stand by my statement. Both that saying we have a lack of info is crap and that we should still lynch Nai.

[Coron]

With all due respect to the players, if you can't remember who you suspected, or don't have anything to say, REREAD THE THREAD. There will be people more suspicious than others, especially with 30 pages of info. It is not acceptable to just show up and say "well I'm here and don't really have anything to say", when we have 30 pages worth of stuff to comment on. Play like that is what kills games.

[Coron]

every single one of you says the same thing... this game is due for an explosion this week. If not you all are bad bad stinky liarfaces.

[Coron]

Nightfall

thought he was likely scum yesterday, but today I'll say the jury is out...

What changed?

[Coron]

could we get a prod on SL

[Coron]

Thanks MeMe!

[Coron]

Gone until sunday for robotics competition

[Coron]

Me too.

[Coron]

WTF, are you lying or are you lying?

[Coron]

You should be glad I'm not a strong believer in LAL. Still a very shifty comment.

[Coron]

You should be glad I'm not a strong believer in LAL. Still a very shifty comment.

If you would quit telling lies about me it would be apreciated.

I haven't really noticed that much more information toay in terms of suspicion as opposed to yesterday, so I haven't commented that much.

[Coron]

We have 35 pages to read. No cop outs allowed.

[Coron]

As far as I'm concerned, a majority of that 35 pages is, more or less, useless filler to this game. At least for the time being, since it concerns people who are, to me, leaning towards town and/or are still alive. I'd only call about 10 of it usefull for this game at this point.

Sounds useful to me. Who are these people you think are town? Also it doesn't have to be posts ABOUT people, posts from people would work too. I'm pretty sure everyone in this game has at least a few posts.

Oh and the reason I haven't posted much is because I've already outlined who I think is scum and have my vote placed there.

[Coron]

might I point out that there are 8ish people in this game who have not in fact placed a vote? They need to get off their lazy butts and help us find scum.

[Coron]

If it's the best you got it's the best you got. Do you have a problem with random votes at the begining of day 1? I know I don't because they are the best possible votes for that point in time, if you feel your gut is the only way you can distinguish right now, I say go for it(even if I don't totally agree with your assessment of who is scummy).

[Coron]

Gut is a reason.

[Coron]

You know, you guys are right, I haven't given enough to this game lately. Expect me to reread by Saturday, with new incites and hopefully something to get the rest of you talking.

[Coron]

I totally expect new incites from you, Coron, but I'd prefer new insights.

[Coron]

unvote vote:GL

Either scum or a very poor player. More likely imho to be scum.
2nd and 3rd option are Nai and Kelly.

[Coron]

Have you given me any reason that you shouldn't be lately? No.

[Coron]

He said it was NOT one use.

[Coron]

Nai, that looks sort of like intentional misinterpretation.

unvote vote: Nai

[Coron]

So is a vote for everyone who is scum according to you. I am not suspicious of the people on either wagons much, so I won't be voting for either of those. I've found that if you can find support for a wagon near deadline you CAN get it going in a short period of time.

[Coron]

Trying to lynch scum. Sorry is that wrong?

[Coron]

unvote vote: Borge

At least a decent lynch. BTW, gone until Monday.

[Coron]

As for my suspicions, seeing as the 3 people I felt most strongly about were all killed off in the night... I feel Nai/Apieron are the most suspicious right now, followed by Zindaras.

Coron I would feel was scum probably only if Nai came up scum

, GL I felt good about but he hasn't posted anything useful in about ever yet he's picked up all his prods.

You really think that the only way I'd be scum is if all that was distancing then? I guess if you think about it, as scum I would probably not do that unless I was, so I reasonable belief I guess.

I am responsible for the death of Kelly Chen, just so people know. If we can get someone else to claim responsiblily for another then we could no lynch, probably we could in any case.

[Coron]

I started with the artifact that allowed me to kill Kelly Chen, it was a one shot ever artifact.

If you want more details on the artifact you can ask.

[Coron]

I'm just posting between my classes real quick right now, so I'll tell you that it would only kill her if she was scum, any other explanations nessisary will be for later.

[Coron]

Why did you attempt to kill her? I don't remember you saying she was your main target.

Ok, I will try to fully explain now. I started with The Feather of Pegamel.
It summons a flying camel that shoots lasers out it's ass to pass judgement on the person that it targets. The night after I target the person they will die if they are scum.

I figured that I was already pretty sure Nai was scum and that we should be able to lynch Nai, and I found it more likely that we would lynch Nai day 2 making the ability essentially worthless, so I found a target that was scummy but not super scummy to target, that I felt would provide information as well as a potential scum deaths.

Note: if this were just a vig there is no doubt I would have targeted Nai night 1.

[Coron]

Rather Night 2 right after day 1, whatever.

[Coron]

I agree with norinel, we need more postings.

[Coron]

I find this amusing. It basically says "I don't want to use the ability that kills ONLY SCUM on Nai, but if I had an ability that would kill EVERYONE, I would do use it on Nai."

is there any way this doesn't make sense? Because this is exactly my thinking.

You SHOULD have used it on me. There are only two results:

One: I'm scum, I die, the town has one less scum to deal with.

Two: I don't die, I'm cleared, and you just gave the town a confirmed townie.

I find it amusing that you didn't do it. The second would have happened, and we'd be much better off right now.

There are 3 options.

One: read your one.

Two: read your two.

Three: you die before the ability goes off.

I had a feeling Kelly was scum, but I didn't feel like it was our best lynch for the next day, I tried to avoid who I felt was the best lynch for the next day, so A) I wouldn't have to avoid voting them and B) so they are less likely to die before the ability goes off from lynching and other viggings.

[Coron]

... So to reiterate, you didn't want to use the ability on me that could confirm me, you'd rather wait until the town has to waste a lynch on me? Kelly Chen wasn't an issue yet, so you could have let someone else target her, or something. But you want to leave an unconfirmed, in either direction, player to be LYNCHED, which ALWAYS ends in a kill?

Waste a lynch=no.

Even ignoring the day delay which could make the ability useless...

Think of it this way
Situation A:
Lynch Nai 98%scum
Target Kelly 60% scum
Situation B:
Lynch Kelly 60% scum
Target Nai 98%scim
The only difference between the two plans is the % chance of ending up with a confirmed player instead of a dead town. With Situation A it is 40%, with B it is 2%

Of course, this statistical thing has to be balanced with the chance of not being able to convince people to lynch Nai, I personally thought there was a pretty decent case that Nai was scum.

Also, there is the chance the person would get lynched to take into account, and a couple more other things, but from a rough estimation in my mind it seemed better to target kelly than Nai.

[Coron]

is there any way this doesn't make sense? Because this is exactly my thinking.

To me it quite obviously doesn't make sense whatsoever.

Vote: Coron

...So you think I'm scum who did a major frickin gambit then?

It's a possibility I suppose, but I want you to make this clear.

[Coron]

So let's make this perfectly clear, you think I'm mafia and used my ability to kill one of my partners?

Or do you think I'm lying about having the kill?

[Coron]

Those numbers are completely made up, as far as I can tell. They're also numbers biased in your view that I'm scum.

... if I don't act based on who I think is scum, how should I act? P.S. Yes, the numbers are made up, they're just sample numbers, they are not meant to indicate really anything, they're just numbers

Yes, town wasting a lynch is bad. But if you were sure enough that Kelly Chen was scum that you'd waste your artifact TESTING it, you could have done the same for me.

I felt that I should target Kelly and we should lynch you due to what I figured the odds were that each of you were scum, see previous arguement

What ends up happening is that we have one scum dead,

no idea about YOUR alignment

, and no confirmed townies, as opposed to one confirmed townie, a guess that you are probably town for checking, and a good lynch for today.

... You seriously think I'm scum that killed my partner then? oooohkay.

1) your scenario is based around the assumption that you are town one I am not willing to make.
2) are you telling me you'd find it MORE confirming that I had targeted and confirmed you than me having killed a scum. I'm sorry but this doesn't make much sense to me.
3)I don't know exactly what you mean by "and a good lynch for today"

[Coron]

So you think we have a 2nd serial killer?

[Coron]

Well, it's either that, or we have a scum group which go the ability to make a second kill. We have already stated you had a vig ability which only kills scum, and we know an SK is dead. So there's very few choices in the matter.

One of the kills couldn't have been a vig(or vig-like artifact)? Again you're acting like you have inside info on what's going on by seeming to miss or rule out plausible scenarios.

Personally, I think the scum had a second kill, or got an artifact that did such. The amount of NK abilities flying around amazes me.
Which is one of the reasons your ability confuses me. There are so many NK abilities flying about, I don't think a 'safety kill' would be another one.

and it makes more sense for there to be another sk instead? I agree, it seems obvious to me we have at least 4 killing abilities. I think it is likely that there is an artifact out there that is basically a true vig. This does not seem unreasonable to me in terms of killing abilities: Vig, Sk, Mafia, 1 shot kills only scum.

And we'd have a good target today if you confirmed me. We'd have Kelly Chen, who you found suspicious, who could be looked at. We'd also have a confirmed townie, me, so we'd have 1/6 people confirmed and a good target for today's lynch.

right now I feel we have a better target and I feel there was actually a greater chance if I targeted Kelly would would have ended up with a confirmed rather than targeting you.

The way I figure it, we have 2 mafia today. We also have at least one NK ability flying around. In other words, we are currently sitting one day away from Lynch or Lose.

With those assuptions, unless town controls the 2nd NK ability WE ARE AT LYNCH OR LOSE.

[Coron]

If you are town, I consider your ability to be a vig-like ability, so no, I don't think there's another pro-town killing role.

artifacts are neither pro-town nor pro-mafia :teach:

... But if you killed Kelly, since you said you thought she was scum, we don't have anyone confirmed. Yes, we have one less scum, but why wouldn't you target the guy you said is scum the entire game? Why would you go after someone completely different, and without saying anything to the town?

I've explained this.

And yes, you're right. IF the mafia controls the second NK ability (which I think is true), we ARE at LoL.

So, damnit, post people!

agreed.

[Coron]

True, artifacts are neither pro-town nor pro-mafia. However, I think they fit the alignment that they start with. I doubt the mafia would have started with my artifact, and I doubt they'd have started with a doc ability.

I dont doubt that they could start with either of those.

And yes, you explained it, but it still seems really scummy.

care to explain how it's wrong?

[Coron]

I already explained how it's wrong. You decided to go off on a whim instead of testing someone you already clearly think is scum. You didn't bother to let the town know anything, just striking off on your own.

You haven't explained how I made the wrong move still, you have not refuted my reasons in any way shape or form. I have explained why it was best to go after my 2nd best canidate to be scum not the first.

Also, I see no reason I needed to claim my power before hand, if the scum DID get a hold of a doctor artifact it would let them become clear if I had claimed it early. Does not seem like a good thing.

[Coron]

And yes, I have explained, several times, why you made the wrong move. It means that you did not clear anyone. Because you did not announce, or even hint, at what you were doing, that means that there's no way to clear YOU.

how would it have cleared me anyway? Also, didn't I explain the whole potential for a scum with a doctor artifact thing already?

If you are scum, which I'm still in favor of, it's a decent plan to pin the lynch today on me. It'd be a good way to make sure that you, one of the last two (or so I believe) scum are cleared for a Lynch or Lose situation.

So you're saying we have 2 SKs and 2 mafia, or are you saying I'm part of the mafia that killed my own or what?

[Coron]

Nai, I targeted night 2, before I would have known about those kills.

[Coron]

Rather, that was day 2 not night 2, point stands though.

[Coron]

Wait, ok I think I might have been confusing there. I targeted night 2. He(the guy with the doc artifact) died the next day, day 2, thus I did not know of his death at the time I targeted, or in fact any point before today.

[Coron]

Why did you attempt to kill her? I don't remember you saying she was your main target.

Ok, I will try to fully explain now. I started with The Feather of Pegamel.
It summons a flying camel that shoots lasers out it's ass to pass judgement on the person that it targets.

The night after I target the person they will die if they are scum.

[Coron]

I don't know, that sounds a bit too convenient for me. That you don't use it on me because you feel that I'd die before it resolves, and that you use it BEFORE the Doc dies, and that it's one use ever so you can't pass it so we can confirm. Lots of ways to cover your ass.

It turns out I'm not covering my ass, it's just that my answers are actually *gasp* consistant.

[Coron]

Erm... Where, exactly, are you getting these numbers, exactly? Coron admitted all of his were made up. You're doing baseless calculations here.

They're sample numbers, they work as long as the one is greater than the other.

[Coron]

Read the second part, idiot.

[Coron]

Does anyone except Nai not realize what's going on, because as far as I can tell Nai is A) scum, doesn't want to admit he's wrong or B) at least mildly retarded.

[Coron]

So you're saying I should have targeted someone I thought was town so we'd have a confirmed innocent? That certainly would not have been you.

[Coron]

No, that's not what I"m saying. I'm saying that you've been gunning for me as mafia pretty much the entire game.

But you get a chance to take me out

, and you don't take it. That's fishy to me.

So you admit to being scum,
I've already explained why it didn't make logical sense for me to take you out.

[Coron]

FoS: apeiron

for being too "easy" in a potential LyLo situation.

[Coron]

I was saying that Coron had the chance to use it on me, a person he's stated is scum the entire game, and didn't use it.

...and passing up that chance was the correct move.

Your point?

[Coron]

So, am I correct that this explains our other nightkill and that if people believe me and dogmom then we could no lynch from here?

[Coron]

No lynch gives us any non-claimed roles abilities at night without really costing us anything, and if a kill goes through it in fact helps town by narrowing down the suspects tomorrow.

[Coron]

I tempted to vote for Nai at this time, and that will end up making things a lot simpler, either we lose or Nai is scum. But I'm not sure I want to take that step just yet.

[Coron]

Wait, 6 alive? We're not that bad off then. NM.

[Coron]

I don't need a prod.

[Coron]

After that, he went completely silent for quite some time, popping in again to advocate a no-lynch on May 21, then on the 24th he popped up to say he was tempted to vote for Nai but wasn't quite ready to take that step yet. He immediately follows with "Wait, 6 alive? We're not that bad off then. NM" No explanation, no vote, no nothing.
Hasn't posted in

six days

except to say "I don't need a prod".

a few days is hardly anything especially when I have been one of the most active people in this thread overall. Maybe I've been a little bit without posting something, basically I agree that NL/Nai/Apieron are all valid, But I think NL and Nai are better options and if I really had to pick I would pick NL right now I think.

[Coron]

I will post every time I have something to say.

[Coron]

Good luck town.

[Coron]

Nai, don't act so stupid next time.