Mini 1012: Mafia In Soraville (Game Over!)

[DemonHybrid]

/confirm

[DemonHybrid]

Going to wait till soras says it's alright before I start voting.

[DemonHybrid]

Vote: Fugitive

[DemonHybrid]

Does anyone know what the **** is a "traitor"?

....

http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Traitor

Vote: Jack

[DemonHybrid]

Jack... that's like posting "Mod says I'm some kind of serial killer, I don't know what my alignment is, can y'all help?"...

Don't know if I should vote you or not... awaiting explanation.

It's weird, because he registered in 2006.

I'll bite though. Who the hell asks about their own role on page two?

[DemonHybrid]

I still want Jack to talk though. Who the hell says something like that, in all honesty?

[DemonHybrid]

Also:

Who the hell asks about their own role on page two?

Jack is not a VI - I've read games that he's in. You assuming that he is, in fact, telling the truth here feels suspect.

That's fine, whatever makes him speak more about his post. I'm still not exactly sure if it's pure scummy or not, but regardless, it's just a weird post, no matter how much experience he has. This is the first instance of non-RVS posting in this game, so of course I'm going to question it.

I honestly don't expect a lynch of him, however. Too much experience, too noobish of a mistake.

[DemonHybrid]

Vote: Fugitive[/b[ This is not an RVS vote. He's really dangerous as scum. We should all keep an eye on him.

Also Jack's post was so obvious. If you think he's actually a traitor...

See Pie's post. =P

Friend's up there on the scum list at the moment despite it being too early, Jack's neutral until he says more.

Waiting for Friend's reply to Pie's post.

[DemonHybrid]

Pie only went for Friend and not DH. I assume this is because Pie just jumped on a non-SH member (LOLBIAS)

Anyways this is retarded. Can we not talk about how Jack got us out of RVS? Any more discussion is useless, and those who pursue it (IE: DH) should be questioned further.

I rest my case Your Honor.

What else do you want to discuss, then?

[DemonHybrid]

This is getting good.

I'm starting to know who to go after.

Going to wait a little bit more though until I go through with a serious vote.

[DemonHybrid]

I'll assume you're referring to me.

What, specifically, are you waiting for?

I never said that I was....I said you were high on my scumlist and that Jack was neutral. I never said anyone else wasn't high up there as well...paranoid much.

[DemonHybrid]

Anyway, Friend, just waiting for a good time to post this, is all. I feel like it's a good time now.

And here we gooooooo

Vote: Friend

1) Player A claims mafia, setting a trap for someone to vote him.
2) Player B falls for it and votes Player A.

Anyone could see that's what Jack was doing. So technically, the one jumping on an easy target is, in fact, Friend: the person voting for Player B.

---

Now's the time to mention to the other players that many of us know each other from another place. Hello Fugi, r2r, Demon, MvK and TL. And soras.

POINT A:

I'm confused. So DemonHybrid falling for said trap is townie in your eyes, but me voting him for it is not?

DemonHybrid apparently still took it somewhat seriously, though, take a look:

Too much experience, too noobish of a mistake.

You wouldn't refer to a gambit like that as a "noobish mistake" if you understood what was going on.

Vote: Fugitive[/b[ This is not an RVS vote. He's really dangerous as scum. We should all keep an eye on him.

Also Jack's post was so obvious. If you think he's actually a traitor...

See Pie's post. =P

Friend's up there on the scum list at the moment despite it being too early, Jack's neutral until he says more.

Waiting for Friend's reply to Pie's post.

POINT B:

Here, Demon blatantly piggybacks after your defense of him, never mentioning me or my vote on him until you show up.

Pie only went for Friend and not DH. I assume this is because Pie just jumped on a non-SH member (LOLBIAS)

Anyways this is retarded. Can we not talk about how Jack got us out of RVS? Any more discussion is useless, and those who pursue it (IE: DH) should be questioned further.

I rest my case Your Honor.

POINT C:

Don't like this one bit - talking about how Jack got us out of RVS is good.

He's saying that DH's normal meta would be to see how obvious Jack would be doing, so he voted for Friend instead. He never once considered DH voting Jack for the same reasons.

IP obviously won't say yes, it'll just make him look stupid.

POINT D:

You're putting words into people's mouths. I don't think he was saying that at all.

I figured DH would see how obvious Jack was being, so I didn't think of this. I see where you're coming from, but I think Friend is more opportunistic.

So, you're fine with DH voting Jack, but not fine with Friend voting for DH using the exact logic that you gave for voting Friend?

This is getting confusing.

I don't find DH voting Jack scummy.
I find Friend jumping onto an easy target scummy.

It may be similar logic, but it has to do with timing as well.

POINT E:

But DH was jumping onto an easy target, so it's the same idea. I'm not sure quite what the difference here is.

EBOWP: The case on Friend is a good one too. I don't like his apparent assumption that the trap was intended for DH.

POINT F:

That's what it felt like to me. I don't think Demon took it at face value, but rather acted like he did so he could throw the vote down.

A: You really want to focus on the fact that I took my vote on Jack "seriously". I really wanted to see how far you'd take your argument on me, and wow, did you ever take it far. Of COURSE I know Jack posted that purposely, no one can be that stupid. In your eyes, you could be town seeing dumb-scum, yeah, but I really think that your seriousness of your vote on me really shines as scummy to me, especially since you took your defense to the extreme here. And it's a bit ironic that you mentioned the "noobish mistake" part...that was the peanut butter in the mouse-trap.

B: I didn't really need to say that I suspected you before Pie did, let's be honest here. Me saying that is a bit of a scumtrap-slip, I have to admit, but the fact that you're still not seeing my non-seriousness of my vote on Jack even after this post is even more mindblowing and knocks down your defense.

C: Not really, if you know that the Jack traitor gambit was obvious, then why do we need to talk about it?

D: <captainobvious> I'd let him defend himself, maybe he was, maybe he wasn't, but you can't make that call either. </captainobvious>

E: It's not an easy target if it's this obvious, so the difference is what you'd call an easy target in this case.

F: A little bit of a flaily defense. Again, no one's that stupid to take something like that at face value.

Vote: Friend

We'll see how you do with more pressure on you.

[DemonHybrid]

I can't tell if Fugi is still RVSing or not.

I don't know...his vote seems preeeetty serious to me

[DemonHybrid]

Hey, I don't mind long posts.

By the way, maybe Fugitive is chillin back and waiting for someone to say something incriminating. Who knows.

Since I explained myself, why aren't you suspecting Fugitive more then, esurio?

[DemonHybrid]

By the way, fair enough esurio.

So I think it's safe to say that Jack's gambit was for the one voting him first.

Waiting for Friend's reply to my wall.

[DemonHybrid]

A: You really want to focus on the fact that I took my vote on Jack "seriously". I really wanted to see how far you'd take your argument on me, and wow, did you ever take it far. Of COURSE I know Jack posted that purposely, no one can be that stupid. In your eyes, you could be town seeing dumb-scum, yeah, but I really think that your seriousness of your vote on me really shines as scummy to me, especially since you took your defense to the extreme here. And it's a bit ironic that you mentioned the "noobish mistake" part...that was the peanut butter in the mouse-trap.

POINT A:

So what did you think Jack was pulling when you voted him if you weren't taking it seriously? Oh, and you keep talking about how your vote was all just a joke, but then this...

Jack... that's like posting "Mod says I'm some kind of serial killer, I don't know what my alignment is, can y'all help?"...

Don't know if I should vote you or not... awaiting explanation.

It's weird, because he registered in 2006.

I'll bite though.

Who the hell asks about their own role on page two?

POINT B:

And this...

I still want Jack to talk though. Who the hell says something like that, in all honesty?

That doesn't exactly scream "non-serious vote" to me.

I don't have anything really to say to your other points - nothing worth mentioning is in there. A lot of that stuff seems like we were misunderstanding each other or it's not important to the subject at hand.

POINT C:

You and esurio turning suspicion onto fugitive, whose playstyle is blunt and concise, reads a little scummy to me too. Guys like that are easy for scum to point at and go "wah he's not explaining himself OMG how scummy" when really it's not.

A: lolseriousness. You're reading way into the prospect of me "taking it seriously" when I never did. I wanted to see who would suspect me the most while I fell for his gambit, and you're it, IMO.

B: I should've screamed for more attention to my vote on Jack then, but I think that if I did that, I would've attracted town votes instead.

C: Neither of us have talked about Fugitive's scumminess. I simply asked her whether or not she was suspecting him for withholding information. The only people who's scumminess I've elaborated on were yours and Jack's.

You're doing a lot of assuming. Brb with another post with your compiled assumptions.

[DemonHybrid]

For some points that I didn't elaborate on that well:

Kov, why are you so afraid about Twomz OMGUS-ing you?

Seriously taking an RVS vote into consideration to bring things out of RVS. A little eager to start putting heat onto people.

I'll assume you're referring to me.

What, specifically, are you waiting for?

I never said I was going to vote for you. At that point, I could've gone after Pie as well, but you were thinking about yourself instead. Way to quick to defend yourself, here.

You and esurio turning suspicion onto fugitive, whose playstyle is blunt and concise, reads a little scummy to me too. Guys like that are easy for scum to point at and go "wah he's not explaining himself OMG how scummy" when really it's not.

You're feeling a little heated; time to turn the argument against someone else when no one was really talking about him that much (other than Pie, but you didn't mention him; just esurio and I). In fact, going by your logic, I'm surprised you're not pointing at least an eye at IP.

Preview Edit: Esurio: My point is, Friend seems to be jumping the gun a little bit as far as arguments concerning him goes. There's a difference between assumption when it concerns someone relevant to the conversation and assumption when someone isn't. (Nervousness can cause this.)

Preview Edit towards Friend:

1st point: Yep.

2nd point: You'd think that when I made such a big deal about making Jack talk, it'd be obvious that I knew that he wasn't that stupid...I even mentioned his sign up date @_@

3rd point: *I've never talked about Fugitive's scumminess. The only people who's scumminess I've elaborated on....

Mistype, sorry about that. It's pretty late here.

4th point: I was more or less curious about why she wasn't voting for him if Fugi did the same thing that I did in her eyes. Question answered, question dropped.

By the way, fair enough esurio.

It ended right here. One could say that you're diverting attention away from yourself as well =P

[DemonHybrid]

A little eager to start putting heat onto people.

A:

That's a good thing, IMO. You're stretching now.

You're feeling a little heated; time to turn the argument against someone else when no one was really talking about him that much (other than Pie, but you didn't mention him; just esurio and I). In fact, going by your logic, I'm surprised you're not pointing at least an eye at IP.

B:

IP didn't act like he was suspicious. If you actually, you know, read my post, you could have noticed that I wasn't suspecting Fugitive for anything.

3rd point: *I've never talked about Fugitive's scumminess. The only people who's scumminess I've elaborated on....

C:

Pretty big mistype, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt for now and assume (OMG) that you were just skimming.

Preview Edit: Esurio: My point is, Friend seems to be jumping the gun a little bit as far as arguments concerning him goes. There's a difference between assumption when it concerns someone relevant to the conversation and assumption when someone isn't. (Nervousness can cause this.)

D:

If the arguments are poor, of course I'm going to defend myself against them. I'm not going to sit back and let you attack me without posting a response.

E:

And yeah, I don't believe that you "fake-fell" for Jack's move for a second based on your posts afterwards. That vote was serious and you turning it into a "gambit" to cover your ass is scummy.

A: It can be...however, it seems too forced in this case. What about his post made you think that he was legit scared to be OMGUS'd and not just joking?

B: I never said you were suspecting Fugitive. I meant that you were turning the argument around to include him (as in, Me/Esurio vs Fugitive) and to repel attention away from you. You hadn't mentioned him before that, and I hadn't even said anything about his scumminess, but:

"Friend wrote:
You and esurio turning suspicion onto fugitive, whose playstyle is blunt and concise, reads a little scummy to me too. Guys like that are easy for scum to point at and go "wah he's not explaining himself OMG how scummy" when really it's not."

this assumes that I just went and suspected him out of nowhere. It just rang out as an attention-repellent.

C: I had my mind set on me asking her that question when I typed that question, so it all sorta meshed together. Plus, it's 1 AM =P

D: No, no, no. Point completely missed. Let's take your post after I said "I think I know who I'm going to vote for", the one where you said "Vote for me, what are you waiting for?" I'm not just talking about straight up defending yourself, I'm talking about defending yourself when there's no need to at the time. How did you know that I was going to vote for you? Because I put you high on my scumlist? How do you know you were at the top of it? I never clearly said any of these things, you just assumed everything. That's what I'm talking about. What you're doing right now is straight up defending.

E: That's like the 5th time you've said that.

Preview Edit:

@esurio: It's not always necessarily a bad thing, but look at it in the context of this game. Do you really think that he was serious when he said "No, don't OMGUS me!"?

[DemonHybrid]

A: It can be...however, it seems too forced in this case. What about his post made you think that he was legit scared to be OMGUS'd and not just joking?

Nothing, really, but even a joke "OMG don't vote me" needs to be explained. It seemed nervous to me so I asked him about it.

How is turning suspicion onto you (who I've suspected all along) an attention-repellent?

It's not you turning suspicion on me, it's how you did it. I never talked about how scummy Fugitive is, but you used the fact that esurio and I had a brief 3-post conversation on him by saying that I called him scummy.

Also, no. Joke posts like that don't need to be explained. It was pretty obvious that he wasn't serious about it, so it rung out as scummy to me when you focused on it so deeply.

[DemonHybrid]

It's like the fifth time he's said that because it needs to be pointed out because we want more votes on you. Oh, and nice move trying to divert suspicion on to me back there. Bravo.

Still want to hear from Twomz, as this debate will probably keep going for a while and I think he should offer his thoughts on it now instead of "waiting till it's over". Since he only answers questions directed at him: Twomz, what are your thoughts on DH vs Friend?

Preview edit: 3 new posts in the time I took to write this up? For the love of Cthulu...

Oh no, I used you as an example!

I don't suspect you at all. Read again: "Going by your (Friend's) logic, I'm surprised that you aren't keeping an eye on IP"

So...hmmmmm.

[DemonHybrid]

Sorry, I must have misinterpreted something w/r/t you and fugitive.

What do you mean by "hmmm" in the above?

Hmmm as in Pie's post is pretty interesting.

[DemonHybrid]

It's like the fifth time he's said that because it needs to be pointed out because we want more votes on you. Oh, and nice move trying to divert suspicion on to me back there. Bravo.

Oh no, I used you as an example!

I don't suspect you at all. Read again: "Going by your (Friend's) logic, I'm surprised that you aren't keeping an eye on IP"

So...hmmmmm.

I must have misread in that case. Sounded like you were trying to say, "hey look IP's doing *blah* but you never mentioned him; why aren't you suspicious of him but you're suspicious of me" the way it was worded.

You mentioned you "could have gone after [me] there" in that post as well. Elaborate? And go ahead and define interesting while you're at it.

I was just saying, I could have voted you just as easily at that point as I could have voted Friend, and Friend decided to talk about his own vote beforehand. It was an assumption on his part that he needed to defend himself, so he asked why I wasn't voting for him when I wasn't at that point.

Interesting: Attention-grabbing. Good or bad attention? I haven't decided yet.

[DemonHybrid]

It's like the fifth time he's said that because it needs to be pointed out because we want more votes on you. Oh, and nice move trying to divert suspicion on to me back there. Bravo.

Oh no, I used you as an example!

I don't suspect you at all. Read again: "Going by your (Friend's) logic, I'm surprised that you aren't keeping an eye on IP"

So...hmmmmm.

I must have misread in that case. Sounded like you were trying to say, "hey look IP's doing *blah* but you never mentioned him; why aren't you suspicious of him but you're suspicious of me" the way it was worded.

You mentioned you "could have gone after [me] there" in that post as well. Elaborate? And go ahead and define interesting while you're at it.

I was just saying, I could have voted you just as easily at that point as I could have voted Friend, and Friend decided to talk about his own vote beforehand. It was an assumption on his part that he needed to defend himself, so he asked why I wasn't voting for him when I wasn't at that point.

Interesting: Attention-grabbing. Good or bad attention? I haven't decided yet.

EBWOP: Good or bad, meaning how I view your post. (Is it scummy or is it not, in other words)

[DemonHybrid]

unvote, vote:Inflatable Pie

Stay on v/la kthx

I'm not giving out my town reads, but I would like to nominate DemonHybrid for scum godfather. Will you be willing to bet that? I would, at the most.

Vote: DemonHybrid

Backtracking, getting nervous too quickly, diverting attention, and just being too vague.

And hey! Jack's latest post has content! But he's not on v/la! Oh well!

FoS: Jack

Other scum reads: Jack
xxx
xxx

Actually, I quite like the reactions I myself am getting.

Fugitive, what do you mean by reaction test? Do you know something about Pie, or are you talking about my reaction to you thinking that I was town?

[DemonHybrid]

Actually, I quite like the reactions I myself am getting.

Elaborate on this.

@TheLonging, why scum godfather specifically?

Jack's play, while it is irksome, isn't necessarily scummy IMO.

Twomz, why do you think DH is town?

Here, I'll elaborate right now.

Scum list ahoy. I'm pretty close to a lynch, so if you want me to claim, then ask, but give me time to reply. I have work in an hour till 6 EST.

I think Jack is town at this point. A good right off the bat gambit, and I wanted to see what I could do with it. I attracted Friend, ran with it with as long as I could, then realized that I did all I can with his gambit. His play the last 2 pages has been weird, especially with the OMGUS FoS on twomz, but I think that's just to get a reaction.

I think Friend is town at this point, I like the reactions that our fighting has gained from other people. At first I thought he was scum when he voted for me, but over the course of our fighting, I found the reactions of other people scummier than Friend's defenses, although he's slipped a couple of times, but that might have just been the heat of the argument.

I think Pie is scum. I don't like his response (the one where I said it was interesting) at all, and it seems like he just wanted to capitalize on a losing argument. He slips up a bit on thinking that I was suspecting him. He deflects it with an "Oh, I mustve misread..." statement. I don't like it.

I think Fugitive is neutral-townish at this point, but I have a feeling he knows -something- about Pie. Call it a hunch.

I have a big feeling TheLonging is scum even more so than Pie. His vote is very fleeting, agreeable and bandwagony, as well as diverting attention away from his vote by focusing on Jack as well. Easy targeting.

Kov might be scum. I get a lurky feeling from him, as well as passive play...there's always a lurky scum. I have a feeling he's just waiting for everything to blow over because he doesn't know what to say...perhaps he's not too experienced (see his MafiaScum site history, he joined a few days ago)

Everyone else is neutral or town either by lack of posting (not exactly lurky, like as if they're busy) or by pro-townish behavior.

Peoples' reactions have given me a concrete scumlist. I would recommend to take a closer look at these people (Kov, TL, IP, maybe Fugitive) after I die and hopefully some good information can come from my death.

[DemonHybrid]

I'll get the ball rolling on Kov, here.

Unvote, Vote: Kov

[DemonHybrid]

Demon, you might as well admit now that you didn't try and make a gambit of your own by "falling" for Jack's gambit.

However, my feelings on you are sliightly improving.

Why did you pick Kov over your other scum picks?

I'd like to see if his inexperience shines through. I know TL and IP from past games...I'd much rather target the weak link.

[DemonHybrid]

>Meta>Meta
>Meta
>Meta
>Meta
>Meta

0/10, good try though

Also, divert attention my ass, I'm listing my scum reads! Dohoho. You're calling me scum for all the wrong reasons. I'm now BWing shit, I'm only agreeing with myself, and I have no clue what fleeting means. Those 2 "scumtells" you listed aren't scumtells in actuality. I'll bite. How am I diverting attention away from me voting you by listing other scum reads? I didn't know we weren't supposed to give out scum reads, and only stick one at a time.

Holy flailing Magikarps, Batman!

Fleeting: You voted for me with an extremely brief response, then diverted attention away from it with your FoS on Jack. Fleeting means lasting for a very brief time.

[DemonHybrid]

How am I diverting attention away from me voting you by listing other scum reads? I didn't know we weren't supposed to give out scum reads, and only stick one at a time.

I also didn't know that I wasn't allowed to find that scummy.

[DemonHybrid]

I'm being honest, Pie. Not going to sit back and have people question why I picked the lesser suspicion here. Plus, I wanted to see what he has to say.

To Kov: What do you think about TheLonging? Is he scum, town? What about his reaction to my scumlist? Curiosity.

[DemonHybrid]

The reaction test was on you DH.

I know nothing about Pie's alignment or role.

Fair enough, I believe it.

[DemonHybrid]

Don't worry, they're buddies.

[DemonHybrid]

So if someone's being anti-town on purpose and not contributing to discussion at all, essentially active lurking... we're just going to ignore him and let him continue doing so? Instead of lynching this person, who is acting scummy? Makes perfect sense.

Not contributing to discussion at all?

-everything- started because he fake scum-claimed. Without him, this whole game would have been an alternate reality.

I think he's doing just fine. You don't have to be a man of many words to contribute if the contributions you had already given are powerful enough.

[DemonHybrid]

Okay, I could understand the traitor reaction test thing, but at this point I'm not seeing much (if any) content coming from Jack at all, just blatant active lurking. People have brought up that he's acting suspicious and he's continued to do so.

He started the discussion, yes. So what? I've started discussion before as both town and scum; it doesn't mean a single thing. Starting discussion =/= contributing to it.

Starting the discussion =/= not contributing at all.

You're trying to put WAY more heat onto Jack than he deserves at the moment. He's not the scummiest person here, no matter how much you, Kov and TL want to think so.

[DemonHybrid]

Here, I think IP is panicking at the moment in his defense. I could easily just flip a coin between a TL and IP vote and I'd be just as happy, but for the sake of the current argument, I hate how he's trying to pass the buck onto Jack.

Vote: InflatablePie

Pie's the scummiest, followed juuuuuust slightly by TL, then Kov.

[DemonHybrid]

To Kov: What do you think about TheLonging? Is he scum, town? What about his reaction to my scumlist? Curiosity.

It's suspicious he seem's to know that there's a Godfather that is Scummy but other than that not much.
His reaction to your scumlist is similar to what I would have if I was scum. I mean if you had pegged a few scum he might be nervous and trying to encourage a quick lynch on Jack.

I have no idea why your putting pressure on pie he doesn't seem scummy to me but maybe you all know his meta, some logic please i can't vote him without anything to go on?

I dislike the fact that Jack can get away with one post that encourages discussion and still say things like "Reasoning is an illusion." (possible the worst excuse ever used). Am I the only one that thinks reasoning is the only way to find scum... And Jacks play is not helpful he just votes with no reason. I think his lack of words/reasons and his playstyle is detrimental to town.

I....doooon't like this response at all. In my experience, that whole "Well I kiiiinda see some things are scummy, BUT overall he's town" attitude on someone getting heat is a safety net in my opinion. And if your reaction would have been similar.....

...why wasn't it?

Read the thread if you want to know why we're voting for your buddy Pie. I think the argument is pretty obvious.

[DemonHybrid]

P.S. - Funny how I'm the only one suspicious of Jack that he hasn't counter-voted/FoS'd, though.

Jack Post #4 » Fri Jul 23, 2010 12:38 am
unvote, vote:Inflatable Pie

This was a bit before I said you were a good lynch, though.

Yeah, Pie is definitely scum. Those reactions to the forming bandwagon were scummy as hell.

I'm starting to get agitated with people who don't listen to reason. Or who don't think active lurking is scummy.

What, do you want Jack to revote?

And if you're this freaked out and agitated due to the few votes that are on you now (regardless of how they were justified)...I can't even imagine how you'll be when you're close to a lynch. I really feel like you're the optimal scum lynch at the moment just by your mannerisms alone.

[DemonHybrid]

And who knows

maybe he is a traitor...

If he did something else please point there I need more than that, thanks.

Oh, come on.

And I think that your view on TL is an "oh crap, I need to agree with him now" statement, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. You aren't any more town, though.

[DemonHybrid]

This was a bit before I said you were a good lynch, though.

So why is it funny that I didn't "counter-fos" you?

Because you've done it to practically everyone else in this game that's been suspicious of you... except me. It's... funny.

.....becauseeeee he was already voting for you.

What.

[DemonHybrid]

Everyone give a yay or nay on lynching pie please.

I personally think he's a safe D1 lynch, so I'm keeping my vote.

Kov's reluctance to vote Pie noted for D2.

[DemonHybrid]

For the record, I won't be around tomorrow until 5 PM. Sunday, I'll be gone until 5 PM as well, so if you address a question to me before then, I won't be here to answer it. Work beckons.

[DemonHybrid]

Hey, hey DH? You know how you think I am scum? Well guess what! If you think I am scum, then you will think I am bussing my "buddy"!

Yep.

[DemonHybrid]

DH's claim to have intentionally fell for the bandwagon is silly.

Oh jeez, really, guys?

For everyone who doubts it, let's take a look at Jack's traitor post again.

Does anyone know what the **** is a "traitor"?

Just look at how obvious it is for a first post. I mean...really? To use a tad bit of meta here; some of you have seen me play in games before and you know that I'm not -this- much of a VI (This is my 4th entered game). My vote for him was more for RVS than anything else, but I decided to run with it after seeing twomz post and see who would capitalize on someone who was really that stupid and obviously newtown to frame them. And these posts about wanting him to talk:

It's weird, because he registered in 2006.

I'll bite though. Who the hell asks about their own role on page two?

And again (here's a cue card for you guys: "A 2nd post about it? Hmmmm, that's a little strange, it's almost like he wanted us to notice it!")

I still want Jack to talk though. Who the hell says something like that, in all honesty?

I was calling attention to my vote. Friend took the bait, which attracted other scum (thankfully, since Friend is town to me after his defense, I was starting to get worried). Friend was my original target after seeing him bite.

That's fine, whatever makes him speak more about his post. I'm still not exactly sure if it's pure scummy or not, but regardless, it's just a weird post, no matter how much experience he has. This is the first instance of non-RVS posting in this game, so of course I'm going to question it.

I honestly don't expect a lynch of him, however. Too much experience, too noobish of a mistake.

This is me trying to attract more votes, but figured that I milked out everyone as much as possible, so after waiting a bit more (the post where I said I think I know who to vote for), I went for Friend to get more reactions.

It's pretty obvious both ways, guys (Jack's post and my response to them). I mean, I think I'm some sort of VI, but not that badly =P

[DemonHybrid]

I am going to rip out my innards. And shower you in them. God-fucking-damn. Tunnel vision to the fucking extreme. Two can play at that game.

And when you shower me with your innards, I will dance as if I'm in a rain storm.

If by "Tunnel vision to the fucking extreme" you mean "You see us both scum, as stated in your scumlist, and I'm not doing anything to curb that suspicion, so here, let me make a desperate attempt to dissuade suspicion by voting for who he thinks is my buddy", then you are correct.

[DemonHybrid]

The one thing that makes me wary is that it seems like TL

wants

to claim. I'm ... not sure what to make of that, honestly.

Eager to defend himself. Claims should be last resort.

I like how he thinks I'm tunneling him when I don't even have a vote on the guy.

[DemonHybrid]

The one thing that makes me wary is that it seems like TL

wants

to claim. I'm ... not sure what to make of that, honestly.

Eager to defend himself. Claims should be last resort.

I like how he thinks I'm tunneling him when I don't even have a vote on the guy.

EBWOP: Tunnel-visioning him.

[DemonHybrid]

You're acting like scum NEVER do this, when, in fact, this is

exactly

what good scum players do. It's not "against the scum wincon" - IMO, all a good scum player has to do is look pro-town. Whatever looking pro-town requires - lynching scum (bussing), giving town information - is what achieving the scum wincon is all about.

Seriously, Pie giving reads and contributing new thoughts is NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT a town-tell. Hell, it's not a town tell for anyone. It's helpful, sure, but you're seriously saying that scum can't at least pretend to be helpful and give reads and such? I'm seriously thinking you should stop playing mafia if:
1) You don't always assume the worst case (assume scum are not slipping)
2) You think someone who plays pro-town is town
3) You think looking pro-town twarts scum's chance to win

My god, buckets and buckets of win all over all of our faces

Please listen to these two, they know what they're talking about.

I just came out of a game where we violated #1 and #2 of Fugitive's post, and we got our arguments shoved into our asses by scum.

[DemonHybrid]

is that an omgus fos on me jack? I love you too, just don't let your ego get in the way, kinda like when I pinpointed you and Soc as scum in that marathon game

This?

Eh. Don't see how that's any sort of tell.

Blehhh. Can't make up my mind between Pie and TL.

Flip a coin. They're both scum anyway =P

[DemonHybrid]

Well, he's L-2. We can wait for a claim or just go for it with the information we have.

[DemonHybrid]

Well, he's L-2. We can wait for a claim or just go for it with the information we have.

EBWOP: Think of it this way:

If Pie flips town, that's one mislynch (which happens nearly all the time anyway on D1). If he flips scum, that's one nearly-guaranteed scum in Kov who weakly slithered his way out of the conversation, and a big suspicion in TL who cracked and voted IP out of pressure, and that's a LOT to gain on Day 1 with such a small risk.

[DemonHybrid]

Well, he's L-2. We can wait for a claim or just go for it with the information we have.

EBWOP: What is it with everyone and claims? That's not the only form of defense. I don't care if Pie claims doc or cop . He's still scum.

Heh, emoticons.

Just expressing the options.

I don't really care for the claim, myself.

[DemonHybrid]

Once again, I'll be gone tomorrow until 5 PM. Work.

Also, I'm surprised r2r isn't voting me with the way he's talking about me. Duly noted.

And r2r: You -have- a case on Pie. It's just a question of whether you understand/agree with it.

[DemonHybrid]

Well, he's L-2. We can wait for a claim or just go for it with the information we have.

EBWOP: Think of it this way:

If Pie flips town, that's one mislynch (which happens nearly all the time anyway on D1). If he flips scum, that's one nearly-guaranteed scum in Kov who weakly slithered his way out of the conversation, and a big suspicion in TL who cracked and voted IP out of pressure, and that's a LOT to gain on Day 1 with such a small risk.

You think we're scumbuddies anyways, why make up shit like that? I joined the BW because I thought it would be fun and any effort whatsoever to try and lynch you at this point is utterly useless. No one will see it. r2r is also useless, but we can lynch that scum another day. BTW if Pie flips scum, r2r goes tomorrow. If Pie flips town, DH goes tomorrow.

Also DH, I'm saying what I said in my last post because I went away in a game for a short V/LA, and I was at L-1. I do it as a precaution when I leave for longer times than expected (I actually thought I'd be back around 5:00 PM, but nope).

Oh, and BTW? I can't defend my change in playstyle. I doubt I've been over the top like this before, and I'm just going to post useless crap until I see my way with DH. I could actually try, but what's the point? I do have a spleen, liver, and intestine I need to pour on him after all.

I will agree with you on one thing: r2r is in the same boat as Kov at this point in time, making him the 4th scummiest on my list.

You should include your heart when you pour your insides on me, by the way; that one's my favorite.

[DemonHybrid]

esurio have a look at pie's scum meta:

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 28&start=0

This doesn't sit right with me. You don't lose town points, but be really careful when making an argument like this based -solely- on meta. It can give off the wrong reads sometimes, and isn't conductive to a good argument.

[DemonHybrid]

If Pie flips town, that's one mislynch (which happens nearly all the time anyway on D1).

This is terrible logic as well. It's okay to lynch townies, guys, it's just D1 and statisctically happens anyway! No. Just... no.

Actually, point completely missed. I'm saying that if we lynch you and you -happen- to be town, that's a small risk compared to gaining a ton of information on your scum flip (like Kov and r2r acting weird about lynching you, TL trying to bus you, etc)

I'd like you to find where I said "It's okay to lynch him -because- he's a townie". It'll be like a game of Where's Waldo with no Waldo.

[DemonHybrid]

Top 5 suspects: TL, Jack, Kov, Fugitive, r2r.

Kov for his fencesitting-ish post about me way back there.

Wow, what?

Where did this come from? It sounds rather familiar.

All of a sudden after so long, Kov is a suspect for the same reason I suspect him for (and after no one else said anything about him)

Or maybe I'm just letting my scum-list get to my head. But everyone else, tell me that I'm not crazy here.

[DemonHybrid]

Fugitive simply for having a different attitude this game, to be honest. Definitely not high up on my scumlist, but I'm keeping an eye out.

Also, lolmeta.

If you want to do the meta dance, then we can do the meta dance, just so I can put you in your place regarding meta. In my experience with Fugitive (skimming games that he's been in and playing with him), short, sarcastic and blunt responses means he has nothing to defend. He's been town in the games that I've seen when he's done this. When he posts very long, helpful, involved responses, he's been scum. Please correct me if I'm wrong, Fugitive.

This means ABSOLUTELY nothing regarding this game. He's neutral-town to me, emphasis on the neutral. Past games should mean -nothing-, if very little (like extremely obvious confirmed scum tells).

More people need to vote Pie. I hate hate hate hate hate your Kov suspicion because it feels like I'm looking into a mirror.

[DemonHybrid]

@IP:So why do you think I'm scum because I took a neutral stance? since when was that a scum tell?
@DH: You say he is agreeing with you but if I remember you seem to think we were scum buddies?
On iPhone would respond more otherwise

Agreeing with me on you being scum =/= you guys not being scum buddies at all.

Look up "bus" on the wiki. He took a completely agreeable and toned down stance on you to try to fit in (which is coincidentally, exactly my stance. Only the 2nd person to agree)

[DemonHybrid]

Agreeing with me on you being scum =/= you guys not being scum buddies at all.

EBWOP: Agreeing with me on you being scum could mean that you guys could be or could not be buddies.

Basically, I'm saying that him agreeing with me that you're scum and that you guys are buddies are not mutually exclusive.

[DemonHybrid]

DemonHybrid, TheLonging, and

Fugitive

Well, duh.

You just got slightly more town, by the way.

I suppose I will give my list again, since my last one left out some people.

DemonList

Town

Friend
Jack
Fugitive
MvK

Neutral

Esurio
Haschel
Twomz

Scum

r2r
Kov
TheLonging
IP

Ask if I need to explain something. Order goes from most town to scummiest. List is subject to change (most definitely).

[DemonHybrid]

Well what

would

you do with them?

I'm intrigued by the solid town read on Jack, DH.

I just have a good feeling about him. He's staying out of the way, yet contributing just enough to keep discussion going geared towards hunting scum. He seems to know what he's doing and has a plan, and although if you take his posts at face value and see them as anti-town, you'd be missing the point of his play. Also, none of these reads would be possible without him. I think he's doing exactly what a townie should do. Compared to Kov and r2r, who post when called out solely + making weak contributions and then melting away. They're afraid to challenge whereas Jack's been pretty ballsy with his logic challenges. Jack is fine this game. Those bothered by him are scummy/newtown.

And I sorta agree with Friend here. Plus, these lists are always subject to change on a whim. They just reflect my current thoughts.

[DemonHybrid]

I would go as far as to say there is DEFINITE scum between r2r and Kov, however, not both. IP is definitely scum, and TL is a strange one. My read on TL might change later after a flip or two depending, but he's acting almost too scummy, and I've had bad experience mislynching people like that. He stays on my scumlist regardless as IP's partner until more information arises. I don't like his play at all.

[DemonHybrid]

TL is probably town. I'll call him neutral-town for now, but probably just a solid townie.

IP needs to be lynched faster.

Yeah, I will say this: TL is -not- the lynch for today. IP is.

[DemonHybrid]

If you want to do the meta dance, then we can do the meta dance, just so I can put you in your place regarding meta. In my experience with Fugitive (skimming games that he's been in and playing with him), short, sarcastic and blunt responses means he has nothing to defend. He's been town in the games that I've seen when he's done this. When he posts very long, helpful, involved responses, he's been scum. Please correct me if I'm wrong, Fugitive.

This means ABSOLUTELY nothing regarding this game. He's neutral-town to me, emphasis on the neutral. Past games should mean -nothing-, if very little (like extremely obvious confirmed scum tells).

1.

I agree with Fugi being helpful as scum. He's also helpful as town, as I do remember a few walls of texts and long arguments with one user in Furry mafia.

Regarding this game, Fugi mostly gives off reads with little to no explanation, which is the part that's bugging me. All but (about) four of his posts before he voted me have been "Pie is scum" - look at him in ISO. He's turning tunnel-visioned.

Those bothered by [Jack] are scummy/newtown.

2.

I'm neither, so you're gonna have to explain yourself here. If not now, remember to do it postgame.

For the record, I want TL lynched before Jack, for sure.

Top 5 suspects: TL, Jack, Kov, Fugitive, r2r.

Kov for his fencesitting-ish post about me way back there.

Wow, what?

Where did this come from? It sounds rather familiar.

All of a sudden after so long, Kov is a suspect for the same reason I suspect him for (and after no one else said anything about him)

3.

I mentioned here I was finding Kov odd. Does no one read my posts? Oh, and Demon, it's not always scummy to agree with someone, depending on the situation. If someone's mimicking everyone else for a long period of time and contributes no original thoughts, then that's scummy. I noticed his post and pointed it out accordingly.

@IP:So why do you think I'm scum because I took a neutral stance? since when was that a scum tell?

4.

When you sit on the fence about an issue/discussion in mafia, it makes it seem like you're scum waiting to see which side is the better one to take. You can then go back and cite that post as evidence for either side. Neutral stance =/= fencesitting - the former can be taken by townies, but when you both cast suspicion and defend the same person in the same post, that's scummy.

1. More of the meta dance. What, no flowers?

He -can- be helpful as town, but for the most part, he has -nothing- to prove or defend, so, although he has a helpful post now and then, his overall attitude is still sarcastic, blunt, etc. and that's what you're seeing this game.

God, I hate talking about meta. Stop focusing on it. I know you're losing an argument, but come on.

2. Um.

You are scummy to me.

Yeesh.

3. Right, I didn't catch that. Sort of a small part of a big post, so apologies there. However, this post is still after I suspect him for being neutral on you and going like "Ehhhhh not sure what to dooooo....so....maybe I'll just....yeah....*disappears". Same case. Seems agreeable enough, but also a pretty big copy of my views.

4. It doesn't help that you're making the exact same argument I made in more detail.

[DemonHybrid]

We Made You by Eminem. Listening to Recovery, so amazing. Maybe we could lynch DH while I'm listening to it

You're saying how scummy I am, yet you're voting for Pie.

[DemonHybrid]

Yeah, actually, your mentioning of SHM3 and then talking about how meta's useless later on in the post. Talking about how I could be Godfather IS setup speculation, even if you include my play within. Otherwise, it's all valid.

And thanks for voting me (your scummiest suspicion) after I called you out on it (you not voting for said scummiest suspicion). That's definitely not weird in the least. Nope. Not at all. At least I gave a reason with Kov. Your vote for IP was just "JGIOAJGIOSHAUITHWIOTHUI FINE I'LL VOTE FOR THE BANDWAGON", which.....damn, it's just too easy.

[DemonHybrid]

Right now, I think that one of {TL, pie, DH} is scum. Right now I'm leaning towards DH, but I'm not sure.

1.

Also, Fugi's meta is very simple and can be tested. Townfugi dies night 1 and scumfugi doesn't.

Well what

would

you do with them?

I'm intrigued by the solid town read on Jack, DH.

I just have a good feeling about him. He's staying out of the way, yet contributing just enough to keep discussion going geared towards hunting scum. He seems to know what he's doing and has a plan, and although if you take his posts at face value and see them as anti-town, you'd be missing the point of his play. Also, none of these reads would be possible without him. I think he's doing exactly what a townie should do. Compared to Kov and r2r, who post when called out solely + making weak contributions and then melting away. They're afraid to challenge whereas Jack's been pretty ballsy with his logic challenges. Jack is fine this game. Those bothered by him are scummy/newtown.

1. Jack is much more experienced than me or, from the looks of it, Kov. I know that, at this point, I wouldn't have the guts to do what he did at the beginning of the game.

2. The reason I'm bothered by him is that there isn't any way to tell whether he is town or scum because he posts so little. You can't honestly tell me that you have a solid read on him at this point.

1. I have no clue if this is a joke or not, and I hope it is.

Your 1. Is that because you have something to hide? Townies should have -nothing- to hide. Why is it a matter of whether you have the "guts" or not to do something?

Your 2. Even a man of few words can portray a lot. Yes. I have a solid town read on him. But then again, having a solid read on anyone at this point is probably weird for you, since you can't make up your mind for who to vote for. I don't believe that you take -such- a long time to come up with a decision. It's page 14. You're probably just frightened of being put under pressure.

[DemonHybrid]

2. Generally, with experience comes confidence. When you're less experienced at something, you are slightly more hesitant to do something different because you're afraid that it might be way off base from what you're supposed to do and that people might be suspicious of you for it. That's what I meant by the fact that I didn't have the guts.

Seriously, there is a lot of "woooooooosh over your head" this game with a lot of you guys...

What I'm saying is that if you're town, there should be no reason to be worried to have suspicion OR votes on you at any time unless it's a LyLo situation. Scum should be worried about being voted.

[DemonHybrid]

r2r, you just replaced TL on my list.

Scum from least scummy to scummiest:

Kov
TL
r2r
IP

Before you say that this is OMGUS, remember that you were neutral-scummy even when you started suspecting me.

[DemonHybrid]

Demon: Okay, so Kov is lurky and fencesitting. We agree on this. I don't get why it's so bad that I agree with you on something. Especially since Kov hasn't made a ton of posts either, so it's hard to offer original views. There are people on my wagon who have gone along with views of the others, do you suspect them a bit?

It's not....except for the fact that no one said anything about Kov until I voted for him and gave reasons why. And only you did. Everyone else "finds him neutral", I guess.

And not really. If you find specific examples, I can comment on them. However, it was the timing of your Kov suspicion that really irked me.

[DemonHybrid]

1.

@DH: You missed my original point, which was that Jack is more experienced than I am, and is therefore more confident than I am. You took that to mean that I "have something to hide".

2.

On your point, we had this debate in SHM3 with METALfootball, and I'm starting to agree with him to an extent. You people all seem to think that the town answer to a wagon is to not care about it, or that you should somehow not defend yourself against suspicions because "only scum care about getting lynched". I don't agree that town should prevent their lynch just as much as scum should, but I do agree that allowing a mislynch because it's the "town thing to do" is against your win condition.

3.

@Friend: He seems to hop on the largest bandwagon and seems to be calling everyone scum.
Pie
me
Kov
Friend
TheLonging
esuriospiritus

It just seems like he's pointing fingers around for the sake of looking more pro-town.

...Oh, and this post:

Well, he's L-2. We can wait for a claim or just go for it with the information we have.

EBWOP: Think of it this way:

If Pie flips town, that's one mislynch (which happens nearly all the time anyway on D1). If he flips scum, that's one nearly-guaranteed scum in Kov who weakly slithered his way out of the conversation, and a big suspicion in TL who cracked and voted IP out of pressure, and that's a LOT to gain on Day 1 with such a small risk.

As was said earlier on the page:

scum want town to end day 1 with as little information and reads as possible

He also says his scummiest read is Pie when (from the looks of it), all he did was voice his suspicion of Jack (something to note if DH flips scum, maybe they planned the whole RVS thing in the QT?).

I like my case on DH, so I'll go ahead and VOTE: DemonHybrid.

By the way, I'm still waiting for the case on Pie as I still don't see it.

1. Woosh. Confidence has nothing to do with being town. You need confidence if you're scum because you have something to hide. So yes, you saying that you'd need more confidence before you start contributing looks scummy.

2. Metametametametametametametameta
meta

meta

I never said that one should allow themselves to be lynched if they're town. I said they shouldn't be -afraid- to be lynched. Not being afraid and being confident are two wildly different things. Not being afraid and not wanting to die are two different things. You guys are generalizing everything.

3. Cool, except that I never suspected esurio and I think Friend is town now. I never called Haschel scum, nor MvK. I said "I could see Twomz as being scum" and never said that I outwardly think that he is. I never thought Fugi was scum, just neutral. Me calling Jack scummy was at the beginning of D1 an*INSERT DEAD HORSE BEATING HERE*

Also, I never voted TL, so I can't see how I hopped on that bandwagon. I was the first to vote Friend (and the only one if I recall). The only one to vote Kov. I voted for Pie after I was absolutely sure that I felt that he was scum.

Insert Credit to continue.

[DemonHybrid]

Work tomorrow from 8-12, then 4:30-10. If anyone has something for me, it has to wait till that gap in the middle or after 10 EST. Sorry

(Will put together my suspicions on Pie when I can, but he's pretty much answered everything I've come up with, either with scummy or meh results.)

[DemonHybrid]

@Friend: I don't know about that.

Kov's vote for TL rings out as super scummy to me. Major facepalm. At this point, Kov/TL/IP/r2r/Twomz are all making it really hard for me to choose who to vote for. They've all said some really scummy things.

Kov is STILL chillin in the background and making bandwagon votes with absolutely no examples whatsoever. A wrong usage of OMGUS. Not really a single contribution to try to find information. Just bad.

IP now seems cautious to want to contribute (unlike how he was at the beginning of the game). I can see him blaming this on time, but if you -can- post, you have the ability to contribute. I feel like his latest post is kind of weak compared to his earlier arguments in this thread, but I'm not really going to pull at loose strings.

Twomz....I see ortiz's case on him.

Nay, I have a feeling he's frustrated by your playstyle, just as I am.

So, I'll just wait for a bandwagon to build and then hammer to end the day. No one really seems to care that much.

Unless the BW is on Jack, my votes already on him.

Actually, you're the one who seems to not care very much. Scum trait. I like how you brought this post up, made it easier for me to find it.

r2r, like I said, is like Kov, only a bit more talkative. He -has- been making some good points lately, however, so...he's not the lynch for today.

And TL has just been completely antagonistic to almost everyone ever since I called him scum. His tunneling is a bit frustrating as well, and he's STILL focusing on Jack's gambit, which is

INSERT DEAD HORSE BEATING HERE

So.....I don't feel comfortable with letting Pie go, but here's my scumlist from less scummy to scummiest:

r2r, IP, TL, Twomz, Kov

Unvote, Vote: Kov

That guy is just too passive. I don't remember him contributing a damn thing this game.

[DemonHybrid]

Sorry I haven't kept up in a while, work's been killing me.

wow that was supposed to be the end of this post:

Vote: Friend

1) Player A claims mafia, setting a trap for someone to vote him.
2) Player B falls for it and votes Player A.

Anyone could see that's what Jack was doing. So technically, the one jumping on an easy target is, in fact, Friend: the person voting for Player B.

Let's think about this.

If anyone could see what Jack was doing, shouldn't DemonHybrid be considered scummy for voting Jack in the first place?

I don't know if DH is experience enough to recognize gambits and other such plays, so Jack would be

his

easy target.

+1 town

I figured DH would see how obvious Jack was being, so I didn't think of this. I see where you're coming from, but I think Friend is more opportunistic.

So, you're fine with DH voting Jack, but not fine with Friend voting for DH using the exact logic that you gave for voting Friend?

+2 town

I may be putting words into Pie's mouth, but that was certainly what MvK was implying, or else I misread him

Yes, I was directly implying that Pie was suspicious of one player but not another even though both did the same thing.

I don't think he was serious, but I don't think it was out-of-line for Friend to question him for it as if it were serious, either. The post in question was on page two, for frell's sake. Any question made to draw out a serious response is a good one that early even if it would come across as paranoid later in the game, imo.

I'm definitely of this opinion, as well.

Whether or not DH was serious in his vote on Jack, he could still be

either town or

scum. To be honest, claiming to intentionally fallen for the gambit just seems like a means to save face, more than anything else. Say what you will about scum jumping on easy targets, but if a townie thinks someone just scumslipped, they're an easy target

, and they're going to be voting for them. I don't see this as an entirely useful avenue of discussion at the moment, because it's far too easy to justify the actions we're seeing as coming from

either

side of the game.

+5 town

So...when did I enter a time warp?

MvK's post was PAGES ago.

[DemonHybrid]

LOL I'M FOCUSING ON JACK'S GAMBIT THAT'S WHY I HAVEN'T MENTIONED IT FOR LIKE A WEEK OR TWO RIGHT

And I don't really understand why you have to overreact every single time I post about you. If you're town, you aren't really doing a good job of it.

[DemonHybrid]

Unvote

@Friend: I don't know about that.

Kov's vote for TL rings out as super scummy to me.

Kov is STILL chillin in the background and making bandwagon votes with absolutely no examples whatsoever.

So how is mine different from..

unvote, vote:Inflatable Pie

vote: Jack

However it's scummy you don't care if jack gives reasoning or not so right now im on DH & Jack as Scum. Yes my vote on TL was just to get DH to contradict himself. Therefore I think he is scum.

'

Um, right.

Except that Jack gave some reasoning later on and expressed why he was accusing Pie, perhaps in a quiet way, but at least he did.

I see your post as a flat out lie. You would vote TL to get me to contradict myself? Worked pretty well, didn't it?

You need to read the thread a bit closer.

He started the discussion, yes. So what? I've started discussion before as both town and scum; it doesn't mean a single thing. Starting discussion =/= contributing to it.

Have you contributed to discussions as both town and scum?

Your purported western-centric ethos is scummy btw.

This was a bit before I said you were a good lynch, though.

So why is it funny that I didn't "counter-fos" you?

Yeah, Pie is definitely scum. Those reactions to the forming bandwagon were scummy as hell.

I'm starting to get agitated with people who don't listen to reason. Or who don't think active lurking is scummy.

@fugitive: yup

So....yeah. Feeling a bit awkward? Don't worry, I am too.

[DemonHybrid]

LOL I'M FOCUSING ON JACK'S GAMBIT THAT'S WHY I HAVEN'T MENTIONED IT FOR LIKE A WEEK OR TWO RIGHT

Oh OK DH, I see. That was just to show how you were scum in the beginning of the day

And that's still focusing on it, despite the reason.

Jeez, is the idea of this game to look as scummy as you can to try to get yourself lynched? Is everyone a jester?

AND THAT WAS A JOKE, BEFORE ANY OF YOU GO OVERBOARD LIKE YOU'VE ALWAYS BEEN AND TAKE IT SERIOUSLY

[DemonHybrid]

Which is how he tried to cover up for his backtracking behavior early in the game with Jack + IP + Friend. Which, I may remind you, is what he's wanting to lynch Kov for.

Because Kov's plan didn't accomplish anything. He compared it to Jack voting IP with no reason, when, in fact, Jack did have a reason to vote IP. So, Kov's vote for you and Jack's vote for IP are wildly different.

[DemonHybrid]

I know what you're talking about. I'm talking about the latter part of your sentence: Why I want to lynch Kov when I "did the same thing he did"...which I didn't. Kov had a terrible plan which did nothing based on a logical fallacy. I found scum in IP and possibly you. There's your difference.

[DemonHybrid]

Sigh DH... I THINK you know what I'm talking about, you're just not making the connection. I'm not going to waste further time.

FoS: DemonHybrid, InflatablePie

Do we have a scumteam here? 2/3 I bet

No kidding? An FoS? You don't say.

Is that kind of like the countless posts that you've made saying that I'm part of the scumteam?

[DemonHybrid]

Um, right.

Except that Jack gave some reasoning

later on

and expressed why he was accusing Pie, perhaps in a quiet way, but at least he did.

My reason was to get you to show how you are contradicting yourself. See bolded. I did the same as Jack he votes and gives reasons much later. I decided to vote with no reasons to emulate Jack. You find it scummy for me but not for him. THAT'S WHAT A CONTRADICTION IS! Voting for TL means nothing against him I don't see as scummy. I choose him as it would draw most attention.

I see your post as a flat out lie. You would vote TL to get me to contradict myself?

Your wrong and Yes because I'm pretty sure you and Jack are buddies.

He had a valid reason. You didn't. I don't see how that's so hard to understand.

Why vote TL when, if you think Jack and I are scum buddies, Jack suspected IP over everyone else? He even said that he thinks TL is town. Just curious.

[DemonHybrid]

@ortiz: kind of like what I said 2 pages ago?

I see your post as a flat out lie. You would vote TL to get me to contradict myself? Worked pretty well, didn't it?

Yeah it did. Voting for someone else intentionally just to get someone to be suspicious of you in a way that you can call scummy? What kind of crazy person would pull such a gambit.

Congrats Kov, you got DH to contradict himself twice.

@DH: While you're at it, do you want to reply to the rest of that post where I voted you a few pages back?

Thanks for ignoring me DH. I really appreciate it.

You know, I've worked 4 of the last 5 days. My mind's a bit fried at the moment.

I'm going to look over the last few pages to sort out this Kov/r2r business in a bit.

[DemonHybrid]

1.

@DH: You missed my original point, which was that Jack is more experienced than I am, and is therefore more confident than I am. You took that to mean that I "have something to hide".

2.

On your point, we had this debate in SHM3 with METALfootball, and I'm starting to agree with him to an extent. You people all seem to think that the town answer to a wagon is to not care about it, or that you should somehow not defend yourself against suspicions because "only scum care about getting lynched". I don't agree that town should prevent their lynch just as much as scum should, but I do agree that allowing a mislynch because it's the "town thing to do" is against your win condition.

3.

@Friend: He seems to hop on the largest bandwagon and seems to be calling everyone scum.
Pie
me
Kov
Friend
TheLonging
esuriospiritus

It just seems like he's pointing fingers around for the sake of looking more pro-town.

...Oh, and this post:

Well, he's L-2. We can wait for a claim or just go for it with the information we have.

EBWOP: Think of it this way:

If Pie flips town, that's one mislynch (which happens nearly all the time anyway on D1). If he flips scum, that's one nearly-guaranteed scum in Kov who weakly slithered his way out of the conversation, and a big suspicion in TL who cracked and voted IP out of pressure, and that's a LOT to gain on Day 1 with such a small risk.

As was said earlier on the page:

scum want town to end day 1 with as little information and reads as possible

He also says his scummiest read is Pie when (from the looks of it), all he did was voice his suspicion of Jack (something to note if DH flips scum, maybe they planned the whole RVS thing in the QT?).

I like my case on DH, so I'll go ahead and VOTE: DemonHybrid.

By the way, I'm still waiting for the case on Pie as I still don't see it.

1. Woosh. Confidence has nothing to do with being town. You need confidence if you're scum because you have something to hide. So yes, you saying that you'd need more confidence before you start contributing looks scummy.

2. Metametametametametametametameta
meta

meta

I never said that one should allow themselves to be lynched if they're town. I said they shouldn't be -afraid- to be lynched. Not being afraid and being confident are two wildly different things. Not being afraid and not wanting to die are two different things. You guys are generalizing everything.

3. Cool, except that I never suspected esurio and I think Friend is town now. I never called Haschel scum, nor MvK. I said "I could see Twomz as being scum" and never said that I outwardly think that he is. I never thought Fugi was scum, just neutral. Me calling Jack scummy was at the beginning of D1 an*INSERT DEAD HORSE BEATING HERE*

Also, I never voted TL, so I can't see how I hopped on that bandwagon. I was the first to vote Friend (and the only one if I recall). The only one to vote Kov. I voted for Pie after I was absolutely sure that I felt that he was scum.

Insert Credit to continue.

1. I don't mean that I'm not confident enough to contribute, I mean that I'm not confident enough to pull off a gambit like Jack did.

2. What does that have to do with meta? I said nothing about your playstyle. I don't even remember if you were in that conversation. Me mentioning a previous game does not make it meta and therefore useless. This has to do with gameplay in general.

I'm not afraid of getting lynched, I just don't think that it would benefit the town right now. I don't know where you got that I was afraid of getting lynched to begin with.

By the way, "You guys are generalizing everything" is in itself a generalization.

3. "calling everyone scum" was a hyperbole. I still think my point is somewhat valid. However, I will take back 2 things on this:
1. esurio: I thought you were one of the people suspicious of him for finding Pie town. My bad.
2. I thought you had voted TL. You sure call him scum a lot.

*digs in pockets*
aww man, I'm out of quarters

1. Understood.

2. Talking about past games is part of meta. http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Meta

Also, I never said you're afraid of being lynched...I was talking about an in general situation there. And no, saying "you guys are generalizing everything" has nothing to do with generalizing anything. Please explain this.

3. To each their own. I don't think it was a valid point. It has a lot of holes.

[DemonHybrid]

...am I the only one who thinks DH is completely wrong here?

It might just be me but Kov is actually making sense and DH is just saying "no that's wrong you're stupid" to everything.

------------

Why I want to lynch Kov when I "did the same thing he did"...which I didn't. Kov had a terrible plan which did nothing based on a logical fallacy.

Why do you think your plan was better than his? His worked.

He had a valid reason. You didn't. I don't see how that's so hard to understand.

DH: When you pulled that 'stunt' in RVS, you said you did it to figure out who would attack the easy target. Kov did what he did to make you contradict yourself, which worked.

unvote, vote DemonHybrid

DH is completely contradicting himself and saying he isn't + bad gut feeling that the kov wagon built up faster than any other wagon today when someone like TL was probably more scummy and it took him a few days to get to L-2.

Note: Kov should probably still get lynched for lurking at some point.

----------

I think twomz is just being scummy to make me want to lynch him more.

Point missed. The conversation is about Jack's vote of IP compared to Kov's vote of TL. Please restate your argument here.

[DemonHybrid]

Kov, I know I'm blurring the lines of the different arguments here, but the validity of your "gambit" on TL compared to the validity of my gambit on Jack is almost the same. Some people don't believe my gambit. I don't believe yours. It's like the -same- argument. So, why aren't people like IP, Friend, TL, esurio being accused for being scummy when they don't believe my gambit, yet I am when I say I don't believe yours?

[DemonHybrid]

Kov is actually making sense now. It took me a minute, but I understand what he's getting at.

Unvote, Vote: DemonHybrid

By the way, Jack had a reason for voting me? Is that what you're saying? Because I've read him in ISO and I can't see a post where he's given reasoning at all. Well, there's one where he says something of mine is scummy, but I honestly don't know what he's saying in that post, so... yeah.

More of a reason then Kov had for voting TL at least.

Nice of you to hop on my wagon, too, when it seemed most opportune to you. If I'm going to die, remember this vote.

[DemonHybrid]

Kov, I know I'm blurring the lines of the different arguments here, but the validity of your "gambit" on TL compared to the validity of my gambit on Jack is almost the same. Some people don't believe my gambit. I don't believe yours. It's like the -same- argument. So, why aren't people like IP, Friend, TL, esurio being accused for being scummy when they don't believe my gambit, yet I am when I say I don't believe yours?

EBWOP: Compared to what I said in my reply to Ortiz:

There are two different arguments here, and they shouldn't be confused with each other.

1. Jack's vote of IP compared to Kov's vote of TL.
2. The validity of my gambit compared to the validity of Kov's gambit.

Be careful of meshing them both together...if you compare Kov's vote of TL to my gambit, or Kov's gambit to Jack's vote of IP, you're blurring the lines of the two.

[DemonHybrid]

@DH: Please finish replying to my post. Escpecially this part.

Well, he's L-2. We can wait for a claim or just go for it with the information we have.

EBWOP: Think of it this way:

If Pie flips town, that's one mislynch (which happens nearly all the time anyway on D1). If he flips scum, that's one nearly-guaranteed scum in Kov who weakly slithered his way out of the conversation, and a big suspicion in TL who cracked and voted IP out of pressure, and that's a LOT to gain on Day 1 with such a small risk.

This is the most anti-town post all game and what caused me to really be suspicious of you in the first place.

On Kov: If I'm understanding him right, he was never really suspicious of TL. He voted for a large bandwagon just to get you to contradict yourself because you found Jack's wagoning OK and his wagoning not OK.

Shorter version of above: it has NOTHING to do with TheLonging.

There are so many connections to Pie at this moment with people who back him up, people who oppose him, people who don't really have an opinion on him. He's probably at the center of our discussions. Jack falls a little bit short. Think of how much info would be gained on his flip. If he's town, we lose a townie, but we get a TON of information. If he's scum, we kill scum. And then we get even MORE information. I don't see how that's such an anti-town post.

[DemonHybrid]

EBWOP: it's also the fact that you pulled a gambit early in the game and got frustrated with people who didn't believe you, then found someone else to be scum because they pulled a very similar gambit. I made a post about it earlier. It's nearer the top of the page.

Reading comprehension....

Like I said: A few people don't believe my gambit. I don't believe Kov's.

[DemonHybrid]

@DH: Please finish replying to my post. Escpecially this part.

Well, he's L-2. We can wait for a claim or just go for it with the information we have.

EBWOP: Think of it this way:

If Pie flips town, that's one mislynch (which happens nearly all the time anyway on D1). If he flips scum, that's one nearly-guaranteed scum in Kov who weakly slithered his way out of the conversation, and a big suspicion in TL who cracked and voted IP out of pressure, and that's a LOT to gain on Day 1 with such a small risk.

This is the most anti-town post all game and what caused me to really be suspicious of you in the first place.

On Kov: If I'm understanding him right, he was never really suspicious of TL. He voted for a large bandwagon just to get you to contradict yourself because you found Jack's wagoning OK and his wagoning not OK.

Shorter version of above: it has NOTHING to do with TheLonging.

There are so many connections to Pie at this moment with people who back him up, people who oppose him, people who don't really have an opinion on him. He's probably at the center of our discussions. Jack falls a little bit short. Think of how much info would be gained on his flip. If he's town, we lose a townie, but we get a TON of information. If he's scum, we kill scum. And then we get even MORE information. I don't see how that's such an anti-town post.

EBWOP: I posted this when IP was at the top of my scumlist. Kov climbed a bit higher, IP's second at the moment (though he did spike up a bit after he conveniently placed himself on my wagon a few posts ago).

[DemonHybrid]

"you can't use that as part of the case."

Fair enough. Answers to your post coming up soon, I need a glass of water.

[DemonHybrid]

DH: Here's my problem:

More of a reason then Kov had for voting TL at least.

1.

I completely disagree with this. Kov's reason was to make you contradict yourself. I have yet to see Jack's reasoning for voting Pie. You've been defending Jack all game, you should be able to point out his reasoning for voting Pie.

There are so many connections to Pie at this moment with people who back him up, people who oppose him, people who don't really have an opinion on him. He's probably at the center of our discussions. Jack falls a little bit short. Think of how much info would be gained on his flip. If he's town, we lose a townie, but we get a TON of information. If he's scum, we kill scum. And then we get even MORE information. I don't see how that's such an anti-town post.

2.

The first time you posted this, I wasn't going to use it against you, because I thought you were just misguided. I'll try to explain it for you.

Lynching for information is TERRIBLE for town. We (Me/Fugi) used that in SHM3 to finish wagons on townies when they were almost lynched but people were afraid to finish the wagon. (Note: We were scum) "Lynching for information" is what you say when your case isn't strong enough by itself so you throw that in there at the end. Trust me, I've done it a million times. You saw what happened when townies actually listened to that crap.

3.

Question for you:

What's the case on Pie? Last thing I saw about him being scum was his suggestion of a policy lynch of Jack? I swear I've seen it asked a hundred times and I haven't seen a solid case posted. Linking me to an already written post is fine.

1. esurio actually took the words out of my mouth. Do you seriously believe that whenever someone says "....Oh! Hah! I caught you, it was my plan all along!" they really meant it in the first place? If so: Why don't you believe my gambit (or the others who don't, for that matter)?

As for Jack:

He started the discussion, yes. So what? I've started discussion before as both town and scum; it doesn't mean a single thing. Starting discussion =/= contributing to it.

Have you contributed to discussions as both town and scum?

Your purported western-centric ethos is scummy btw.

Pie's ideology that starting a discussion doesn't mean contributing to it is scummy to Jack. Western-centric is a weird way to put it (I said in my scumlist that I think he's been acting strange, but not specifically scummy).

P.S. - Funny how I'm the only one suspicious of Jack that he hasn't counter-voted/FoS'd, though.

Jack Post #4 » Fri Jul 23, 2010 12:38 am
unvote, vote:Inflatable Pie

This was a bit before I said you were a good lynch, though.

So why is it funny that I didn't "counter-fos" you?

A fallacy in IP's logic that Jack catches because...well, he's the one who voted him. To give credit to IP, he wasn't too up-to-date with who was voting for him, but then again, this topic exploded after a little while...even scum could've missed who would be voting for them.

esurio have a look at pie's scum meta:

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 28&start=0

Implying that Pie is acting the same in this game then he was in that game. I scolded him for using a meta based argument on this one, but he has a point.

2. That was a little bit of a different situation. -everyone- in this game is connected to Pie in some way, as opposed to half of the SHM crowd that was comprised of lurkers and people who didn't really care, so I think this is a tad more of an appropriate situation to want to lynch for information, ESPECIALLY with so many arguments being fired around. It'd help clear the air just a little bit. You have to remember that not a single person is dead still. A counter question: Lets say that Pie dies today. If Pie flipped scum, who would be your new targets? If he flipped town, who would be your new targets?

3. I'll put this in another post. It'll be long and I don't want it meshed in with my other posts. Coming right up.

[DemonHybrid]

WAIT

DH WAGON IS FINALLY TAKING OFF?

FUCK YES BEST THING EVER <33333

UNVOTE

VOTE: DEMONHYBRID

REMEMBER THOUGH IN CASE SOMEONE USES THIS AGAINST ME I STILL FIND KOV SCUMMY, THEN PIE. PIE IS THE LEAST SCUMMY OF MY TOP 5 SCUM READS. TWOMZ I'M NOT FOLLOWING UP ON TOO MUCH BUT HE SEEMS TO PLAY COUNTER-PRODUCTIVE AND AS FOR JACK? WELL, I"LL WAIT FOR JACK TO COME BACK BEFORE DECIDING ON A FINAL SOLID READ OF HIM

Wow. Um, okay.

[DemonHybrid]

DH: Here's my problem:

More of a reason then Kov had for voting TL at least.

I completely disagree with this. Kov's reason was to make you contradict yourself. I have yet to see Jack's reasoning for voting Pie. You've been defending Jack all game, you should be able to point out his reasoning for voting Pie.

There are so many connections to Pie at this moment with people who back him up, people who oppose him, people who don't really have an opinion on him. He's probably at the center of our discussions. Jack falls a little bit short. Think of how much info would be gained on his flip. If he's town, we lose a townie, but we get a TON of information. If he's scum, we kill scum. And then we get even MORE information. I don't see how that's such an anti-town post.

The first time you posted this, I wasn't going to use it against you, because I thought you were just misguided. I'll try to explain it for you.

Lynching for information is TERRIBLE for town. We (Me/Fugi) used that in SHM3 to finish wagons on townies when they were almost lynched but people were afraid to finish the wagon. (Note: We were scum) "Lynching for information" is what you say when your case isn't strong enough by itself so you throw that in there at the end. Trust me, I've done it a million times. You saw what happened when townies actually listened to that crap.

Question for you:

What's the case on Pie? Last thing I saw about him being scum was his suggestion of a policy lynch of Jack? I swear I've seen it asked a hundred times and I haven't seen a solid case posted. Linking me to an already written post is fine.

It was also the fact that you implied that you wanted him lynched (I believe) within the next 24 hours. I can even sort of understand lynching for information, especially since you gave examples of said information (although I think we never get the info from a lynch that we think we will), it's the fact that we will get WAY more information from letting the day play out, and you wanting to get the day over as quickly as possible is anti-town.

Good luck on getting the case on Pie. I've been asking for it since page 12.

Please point out where I wanted him lynched within 24 hours.

You completely missed where I said "we can wait for more information (a claim) or we can lynch him with the information we have" since he was v/la. So...if you meant that, woosh.

For post 480: Kov's gambit seemed much less planned out. I really can't say much more about this and I really don't know what you want. Friend, TL and Pie don't believe my gambit. esurio and I don't believe Kov's. I'm sure he's feeling frustrated either way. It's like you're expecting proof from either of us, when in fact, there's no proof of ANYTHING in mafia except for flips. (and even then, not every flip).

[DemonHybrid]

It's like the fifth time he's said that because it needs to be pointed out because we want more votes on you. Oh, and nice move trying to divert suspicion on to me back there. Bravo.

Still want to hear from Twomz, as this debate will probably keep going for a while and I think he should offer his thoughts on it now instead of "waiting till it's over". Since he only answers questions directed at him: Twomz, what are your thoughts on DH vs Friend?

Preview edit: 3 new posts in the time I took to write this up? For the love of Cthulu...

Calls attention to himself when I never tried to divert suspicion onto him. ISO Pie and read back to that argument (I mentioned Pie in a fleeting argument with Friend and Pie thought it was an attack on himself). I didn't like this.

It's like the fifth time he's said that because it needs to be pointed out because we want more votes on you. Oh, and nice move trying to divert suspicion on to me back there. Bravo.

Oh no, I used you as an example!

I don't suspect you at all. Read again: "Going by your (Friend's) logic, I'm surprised that you aren't keeping an eye on IP"

So...hmmmmm.

I must have misread in that case. Sounded like you were trying to say, "hey look IP's doing *blah* but you never mentioned him; why aren't you suspicious of him but you're suspicious of me" the way it was worded.

You mentioned you "could have gone after [me] there" in that post as well. Elaborate? And go ahead and define interesting while you're at it.

"Oops. I screwed up." I thought I was very clear when I mentioned Pie.

IP, what is your case on Jack?

He's just playing extremely anti-town, although obviously, and at this point if he's going to barely contribute while being blatantly anti-town, I think a policy lynch is in order.

I'd be beating a dead horse if I talked about this post. Let's just leave it at that.

This was a bit before I said you were a good lynch, though.

So why is it funny that I didn't "counter-fos" you?

Because you've done it to practically everyone else in this game that's been suspicious of you... except me. It's... funny.

This whole argument...I mentioned it in my first point in my reply to Ortiz. I found it very weird that he was so dead set on debunking Jack's demeanor that he forgot that Jack was voting for him the whole time. That's what tunneling does to someone.

Demon: Okay, so Kov is lurky and fencesitting. We agree on this. I don't get why it's so bad that I agree with you on something. Especially since Kov hasn't made a ton of posts either, so it's hard to offer original views. There are people on my wagon who have gone along with views of the others, do you suspect them a bit?

Talks about Kov right after I make a case on him....no one's talked about Kov before I did. Very fishy.

Unvote, Vote: Kov

Yeah, his TL vote and the post after it are odd, and I'm getting scummier vibes from his latest post (deflection, plus the last two sentences are just... what?). I'm okay with this.

Time to jump on the wagon!

Kov is actually making sense now. It took me a minute, but I understand what he's getting at.

Unvote, Vote: DemonHybrid

Oh, oops, I mean, wait! Time to jump on this wagon!

Sorry, I know I said I wouldn't use his vote on me as part of this wagon, but I found it funny that he just rode along with the Kov wagon beforehand...and the point wouldn't be as strong if I didn't include it.

[DemonHybrid]

He was V/LA for 24 more hours. You suggesting to just lynch with the info we had implies to me that you wanted him lynched before he came back (within the next 24 hours).

That's why I mentioned the option of waiting for a claim instead of saying "Let's just lynch pie without a claim".

[DemonHybrid]

Ortiz: if you need me to go indepth about one of my points, please ask.

[DemonHybrid]

I've been beating a dead horse using the term beating a dead horse because you all are beating a dead horse beating a dead horse. It really is beating a dead horse.

I have a migraine.

[DemonHybrid]

God, who do I vote for? You're all really scummy.

[DemonHybrid]

DH: 4.78/5 (posts a lot and has a lot of scummy stuff)

Oh no, not posting a lot!

Here, compile a case against me, because I'm starting to forget why you're so vehemently for my lynch since the moment I started suspecting you. Make it good.

[DemonHybrid]

2. That was a little bit of a different situation. -everyone- in this game is connected to Pie in some way, as opposed to half of the SHM crowd that was comprised of lurkers and people who didn't really care, so I think this is a tad more of an appropriate situation to want to lynch for information, ESPECIALLY with so many arguments being fired around. It'd help clear the air just a little bit. You have to remember that not a single person is dead still. A counter question: Lets say that Pie dies today. If Pie flipped scum, who would be your new targets? If he flipped town, who would be your new targets?

1.

I think the concept applies just as much here, maybe more. The point was that we kept saying to lynch for information just to get the lynch through, and then we avoided going back to it by saying "Townies reads aren't always right anyway" - its a scummy reason to try and support a lynch. Plus there were like 6 mislynches in that game, and I think there's generally 3 in a mini. Its not a big deal to kill a VT on day 1/2 of a 25 person game, but every lynch is important in a mini. Its just a bad/scummy reason in general to push for a lynch.

I'd have to reread to answer that. I wasn't in the game through the first 15 pages so I only read everything one time, I don't remember small details here and there. I remember Fugi tunneling Pie from the beginning, so for example if Pie flips some expendable role like a goon I would be suspicious of Fugi for bussing, because Fugi would do that. I don't really know off the top of my head who's been defending him, but I'd look at that, subtle defenses, etc. If he flipped scum I'd probably take some heat as well because I've defended him a little.

Anyway, the same could be said for any person. You could sacrifice yourself since you'd probably give off more information than anyone else. (I obviously don't think you should do that)

--

You completely missed where I said "we can wait for more information (a claim) or we can lynch him with the information we have" since he was v/la

2.

I forgot to point this out earlier. This is a scummy post. (Not this one, but the one you put in quotes) "Or we can lynch him with the information we have" is kind of a feeler. You don't push it, but you throw the idea out there to see if someone else will jump on the idea. Its like making a case on someone, not voting them, and wait until someone else votes the person before you do to make sure there's support behind it. I make a lot of posts like this as scum, so that's particularly telling to me.

---

3.

Alright, reading through the thread to check up with your case on Pie.

In your first two quotes, I can see what you're getting at, but its not really a scumtell as far as I can see. Maybe paranoia? But Pie is by far competent enough to not be paranoid over something like that. I can see him legitimately misinterpreting your post.

Reading through I noticed something that I haven't seen mentioned.

Jack, I can't tell if you're:

- trolling
- actually scum
- town reaction testing

...but at this point, it's starting to get on my nerves for some reason.

4.

This prefaces his policy lynch suggestion. I'm not really sure if its town telling (his feelings/read gradually increasing vs. him setting up the suggestion as scum) or scum telling. Occam's razor suggests town telling though. I don't know why anyone would try to set up a policy lynch in advance...especially someone who knows how scummy it is to talk about policy lynches.

The next point with the Jack/Pie thing just looks like Pie fail to me. I find it strange he's done that twice this game.. which is actually pretty opposite of Piescum meta. That's one reason I think he's town... Pie plays pretty well as scum and pretty scummy as town. I'll probably get attacked for using Meta to defend someone but I'll stand by my theory that meta is legit.

Top 5 suspects: TL, Jack, Kov, Fugitive, r2r.

Kov for his fencesitting-ish post about me way back there.

Wow, what?

Where did this come from? It sounds rather familiar.

All of a sudden after so long, Kov is a suspect for the same reason I suspect him for (and after no one else said anything about him)

5.

Actually he posted about Kov being scummy about a page before this, not just when he was asked to put out a scumlist. Not to mention you're calling him scum for being suspicious of the same person you are. I just don't get it. Preview edit: Wait, Pie did point this out later on. You ignored it.

His two bandwagon votes are scummy as hell.

----

TO SUMMARIZE:

-Yes, I realize I'm fucked if Pie's actually scum

1. I still can't believe that everyone's making this out to be such a big deal.

My point of that post was to demonstrate that a scum flip of Pie would be much more valuable than a scum flip of everyone else. Having him flip town is a relatively small risk in comparison. Stop taking that post out of context.

And yes, I would die if that meant that scum would be found the next few lynches after my death. I have a win condition that says "You win if all scum is wiped out". It doesn't matter if I'm alive or not. You know that's how I play, and I honestly think that someone's death would be worthless if I thought they were -somewhat town- and weren't connected to a lot of people...because it wouldn't tell us much.

2. Or it's simply opening up options to what to do. Everyone seems to mistakenly think that I was against not lynching him. Kind of getting tired of people putting words into my mouth.

3. That kind of thinking put you and Fugitive in the position to completely destroy us last game. Just saying.

4. Setting up policy lynches in advance is scummy in itself because at that point, there is no need for a policy lynch. Policy lynches are last resort "this guy needs to die because he's completely fucking town over" lynches. How can that be the case when he needs to -set it up-?

5. Why does everyone keep saying that "it's weird that you're calling someone scum for suspecting the same person"? I'm seriously starting to question everyone's sanity. There are things called wagons. Reasons for scum to vote for the same person others are.

To be honest, I had forgotten that Pie had posted before about Kov (I remember there was discussion about it before), but it doesn't excuse the fact that he hopped on the wagon when it picked up. You asked for a case against Pie, I gave you a full-game case against Pie, including wagon hopping.

Oh.

AND I HATE HATE HATE HATE that bolded quote of yours. If you have a doubt that Pie may be scum to the point where you think you'll be fucked if he flips it, then -why are you letting his scumminess go unanswered-?!

[DemonHybrid]

I'll say it again: a flip NEVER gives you as much info as you think it will. The only time last game where we actually caught scum from a flip was Mitch, and I don't think anyone will be that stupid this game.

By the way, you'll never convince me that that post was town, even if (a big IF) you flip town.

I don't like that last part either, but I don't see it as a scumtell.

So, all information given from a flip is useless by your logic.

I was saying we'd get -more- info from a Pie lynch compared to everyone else, and along with his scumminess, IMO, he'd be the optimal lynch. Nothing more than that.

[DemonHybrid]

1. No matter what your intentions were, its still a scummy thing to say. You said it, you can't take it back, you have to deal with the consequences of it.

2. I think you missed my point. I meant the part where you said "or we can lynch him now" was a feeler. If someone else had said "yeah let's just lynch him now" you would've agreed and started pushing it. I hate to bring up SHM3 again (seriously, sorry to everyone else since you don't know what happened, and it's probably annoying), but remember the Sean lynch? I said "I didn't want to do this since he's v/la" then Fugi came in and pushed it, then we wagoned and a quicklynch happened just like that. Same thing could've easily happened here. (Luckily there are competent players in this game) I didn't do a good job of verbalizing what I meant.

3. Huh? Did you mean this line - "Alright, reading through the thread to check up with your case on Pie. " or where I said Pie is too competent to freak out over a namedrop? Or the one before it where I said that it wasn't a scumtell?

4. I was trying to say that you can see the progression of his read where he said "Jack is getting on my nerves" to "I'd be fine with a policy lynch" or whatever he said. I think the first post makes it seem more town

because I doubt he would set up a policy lynch in advance

. I don't believe he would set up a policy lynch because that's just kind of outlandish. I can't conceivably see someone going out of their way to set up a policy lynch... which aren't easy to pull off and I've never seen happen anyway. I'll drop this point anyway because I was stretching it from the beginning, I was just in arguing mode.

5. It wasn't a wagon at that time though. Someone asked Pie "Who do you have a bad feeling about on your wagon?" and he answered with a few people, one being kov. A page or two later someone asked Pie for his top suspects, and he listed Kov on the list. Then you called him scum for being suspicious of the same person you were. There was no wagon there. It looks like you were just trying to find a reason to make him scummy. He already had a ton of votes at that point and it looks like you were trying to push it over the top.

The Kov and DH wagon votes (the recent ones) don't count because you were calling him scum way before that. I asked you to provide a case because I wanted to see what was scummy about him besides the policy lynch and if you could support your constant claims of him being scum.

Bolded part:

Yeah, I knew I would get a typical post like yours from that. I'll try to explain it better.

I am unaware of Pie's alignment. Defending him like I have is more a result of me thinking your scum and debunking your case on him than it is thinking he's completely town. Assuming we're playing everyone is innocent until proven guilty, I don't see what makes Pie guilty. I'm defending him against your bad logic. He hasn't done anything to make himself town, he just hasn't done anything to make him scum in my eyes.

It has nothing to do with me thinking Pie might be scum, its the fact that I don't know. I think Pie's town at the moment because you're pushing him off a bad case. Pie could very well be scum, and if he flips scum, I'm acknowledging the fact that I just defended him hard and I'll have to take heat for it. Tbh, what I said was scummy, and I'd probably be all over someone for it. But I'm hanging myself out to dry on the fact that I think you're scum and Pie's town, and I was making note of that.

---

Also. Nothing to say about Fugi's policy lynch suggestion?

1. Fair enough, however, you didn't preview edit to include my responses to r2r, since it's related. Thoughts?

I would agree it sounds scummy on the surface, but ultimately, as far as pure information goes, my point was that TL/IP/I would be the best lynches since we're involved with everyone in some way this game. There are plenty of town players that sound scummy on the surface however, that's why we have brains and intuitions.

2. One person wasn't going to convince me to push a Pie lynch. I was already voting for him, so I was giving the options with the current situation we had (Pie being on v/la). Regardless, since I was already voting for him, everyone should know that I was already pushing for his lynch. I just don't see why this is so scummy when you have someone like TL over there going like "YES THE DH WAGON IS GROWING EVERYONE GOGO LYNCH" or any of the other countless wagon pushes by town thinking 99% that they've caught scum.

3. When you said Pie was too competent to freak out over a namedrop. You're trusting the player, not fighting the position. Just because "Hey...it's Pie" doesn't make him any more town when the roles are randomized. That's why I hate meta.

4. Fair enough, point dropped.

5. Pie wasn't voting for him at that point in time, though, was he? He had his vote on TL.

Bolded quote: What makes you think it's a town vs scum argument here? Why not town vs town? Scum vs scum?

Fugi's policy lynch suggestion: Let me take a look at what you said closer. It's late and I skip things sometimes, brain is still fried.

[DemonHybrid]

EBWOP: 2. One person wasn't going to convince me to try to convince others to complete a Pie lynch................everyone should know that I was already pushing for his lynch for myself.

I really need some sleep.

[DemonHybrid]

"I remember Fugi tunneling Pie from the beginning, so for example if Pie flips some expendable role like a goon I would be suspicious of Fugi for bussing, because Fugi would do that. I don't really know off the top of my head who's been defending him, but I'd look at that, subtle defenses, etc. If he flipped scum I'd probably take some heat as well because I've defended him a little."

It's a good point, but like I said, we won't know that until we have -sure- information. We can speculate his tunneling, but nothing we can do until a few days go by.

To go back to my point 1 to try to explain it a bit better, since that's the hot topic for today: To use this post as an example, would you not agree that Pie's flip would help tell you what alignment Fugitive is? TL (since TL threw a vote on IP a while back out of craziness or whatever)? Me?

Now, for example, lynch someone like...I don't know, Haschel. What information would you get from that lynch? Probably 1/20th of the info Pie's would give you, plus, I don't think Haschel's been that scummy, whereas Pie's had some scummy moments.

-that's what I mean-.

[DemonHybrid]

I'm about to sleep. You mind waiting till tomorrow during lunch hours for a reply?

[DemonHybrid]

It's weird. Kov's lurky scummy, TL's obviously scummy, IP is situationally scummy. It's hard to choose.

[DemonHybrid]

Town players can look "obviously" scummy. Sometimes the lurky players can be more dangerous. You know this.

[DemonHybrid]

EBWOP: I just feel like Kov has slipped a bit more, and while TL has outwardly freaked out and yelled and expressed his thoughts on this and that and yadda yadda, I just feel like Kov is a better lynch because of his actions. Like I said earlier, TL is not the lynch for today for me.

[DemonHybrid]

TL seems more scummy because of his general attitude than his actions.

Thanks, Friend. Exactly this, I can't get my thoughts together today.

And I should have put "obviously" in quotes in my first post. Consider this an EBWOP.

[DemonHybrid]

Ugh.

What does Joss in SHM3 have anything to do with this game? He didn't have the attitude that you have this game, which is what the current conversation is about.

[DemonHybrid]

Lets make the playing field level.

Josseppe was a Tracker in our Scorehero Mafia 3 game. He also claimed D1 and chilled back for a while afterwards, only dying after he was replaced by someone else.

[DemonHybrid]

You weren't even close to a lynch...

[DemonHybrid]

I simply can't see myself lynching a claimed PR day 1, no matter how dumb the claim is, however, I've been saying for a while how TL is not the lynch for today. Claiming like that was anti-town, just like Joss was...you MAY BE town, but your claim was definitely not.

I guess Twomz replaces his spot. r2r's been pretty sharp, so I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt. Keeping my Kov vote.

[DemonHybrid]

PEdit: DH, while you said TL is not the lynch for today you've also spent a damn good portion of the day saying how scummy he is without moving your vote to him.

Saying that someone is scummy is a completely different ballgame than pushing their lynch on the first day. Why do I have to want to lynch a person I find scummy on a certain day?

Last thing I want is for Kov to slip away.

[DemonHybrid]

Still seems like you were pushing for TL's lynch/wagon harder than you were for Kov's though.

Funny, since I didn't vote him at all. His play since I put him on my scumlist pretty much forced me to comment on how scummy he was, in comparison to Kov who doesn't really speak that often.

Preview edit: That's not a good way to play mafia. People can vote for others for countless reasons, and you can get tunnel vision if you think that way.

I'm curious to know why you don't think there's a possibility of it being scum bussing scum in this case.

[DemonHybrid]

I support no lynch except a Pie lynch.

I believe TL's claim, and have been calling him town from the start.

I also support a Tracker CC if there is a real one and he is fake-claiming.

I believe that you're town, but Pie has a point; you have a habit of tunneling him without a clear case. Humor him.

[DemonHybrid]

unvote
Vote: InflatablePie

....

[DemonHybrid]

I like the pressure on Twomz. However, I don't want Slippery "Kov" McSlick over here getting away.

[DemonHybrid]

DH is looking scummier. 634 is a scum post.

I don't really see "spitefully attacking a single player" as a scum thing to do. Don't think a twomz wagon is good.

I'm curious as to why you think so.

I already said Twomz looks scummy (and replaced TL on my list when TL claimed), but I have my vote and am vocally against Kov living.

So, what new information have you picked up from 634?

[DemonHybrid]

hmm reread up to page 5

unvote, vote:DemonHybrid

go go go

EPIC QUESTION DODGE.

[DemonHybrid]

I like the pressure on Twomz. However, I don't want Slippery "Kov" McSlick over here getting away.

You have a habit of keeping your vote on someone but pushing for someone else's lynch. You did this with TL, too.

Yeah, I don't see the problem with that. Active scumhunting means never to let your suspicions go of one person. I don't like Kov. I don't like Twomz a little less, but wouldn't mind pressure on him to get reads.

Jack is on drugs or something. I'm still waiting you to answer my question. I said it once, and here it is again: EPIC question dodge. Why is that post scummy to you? Why is the fact that I called what you did an epic question dodge scummy? What was it about your re-read that was scummy?

In fact, make a PBPA. I want you to speak a little more now.

[DemonHybrid]

Jack is on drugs or something. I'm still waiting you to answer my question. I said it once, and here it is again: EPIC question dodge. Why is that post scummy to you? Why is the fact that I called what you did an epic question dodge scummy? What was it about your re-read that was scummy?

In fact, make a PBPA. I want you to speak a little more now.

I WANT AT LEAST 10,000 WORDS OR YOU CAN'T VOTE, NOW GIVE ME A TRIPLE PBPA OF EVERY PLAYER IN THE GAME INCLUDING EVERY GAME FROM THEIR META OR UNVOTE NOW

So, you aren't willing to go indepth to create a valid case on me, in other words.

[DemonHybrid]

So, you aren't willing to go indepth to create a valid case on me, in other words.

This week on "inside the mafia play book" we have special guest DemonHybrid, who will explain to our viewers how to poison the well

without looking scummy and anxious

to discredit a vote from a townie.

Oh, I'm doing nothing to discredit your vote. In fact, nothing of what I'm saying has anything to do with your vote.

[DemonHybrid]

In fact, make a PBPA. I want you to speak a little more now.

Does this make anyone else lol? Jack is playing consistent with his play all game, which DH has avidly supported and talked up, but as soon as its vs. him its time to change.

Consistent? Yeah, I don't think so. I can't remember when someone's openly confronted Jack instead of just voting for him and leaving the convo be, but I can't be halfassed to ISO everyone, so if you find something, let me know.

[DemonHybrid]

In fact, make a PBPA. I want you to speak a little more now.

Does this make anyone else lol? Jack is playing consistent with his play all game, which DH has avidly supported and talked up, but as soon as its vs. him its time to change.

Consistent? Yeah, I don't think so. I can't remember when someone's openly confronted Jack instead of just voting for him and leaving the convo be, but I can't be halfassed to ISO everyone, so if you find something, let me know.

EBWOP: He's had reasons for doing what he's done, but now that I'm questioning back on his reasoning, he's completely ignoring everything. Ignoring isn't consistent with his play, whereas implying and under-speaking his thoughts are.

[DemonHybrid]

Pie you beautiful voice of reason, I apologize for voting you most of the day.

DH, keep wriggling.

And you. Keep pulling at loose strings and ignoring valid questions.

There's always one person that does this shit every game. They think they have a nice case, but they're actually just agitating on the surface, in denial and won't actually go indepth about why they think the way that they do. They confuse town, cause a few mislynches and happen to be a Vanilla themselves after they're nightkilled.

Pie, please show me where you think his argument is valid.

[DemonHybrid]

EBWOP: A reword: Try to show me where I am "trying to make him look bad". I asked him a few questions. Not once did I try to debunk his vote or reasoning. I've asked a few questions, and he blatantly ignored every single one, and you're going along with him because it's opportune for you.

This is not consistent Jack, this is frustrated Jack. His vote and reasoning on Pie (catching his OMGUS suspicion fail) was valid, yet quiet. This is dumb.

[DemonHybrid]

Here. I'll throw some concentrated reasoning in your faces. Please look over this exchange and try to find exactly where I attacked Jack.

I like the pressure on Twomz. However, I don't want Slippery "Kov" McSlick over here getting away.

DH is looking scummier. 634 is a scum post.

I don't really see "spitefully attacking a single player" as a scum thing to do. Don't think a twomz wagon is good.

DH is looking scummier. 634 is a scum post.

I don't really see "spitefully attacking a single player" as a scum thing to do. Don't think a twomz wagon is good.

I'm curious as to why you think so.

I already said Twomz looks scummy (and replaced TL on my list when TL claimed), but I have my vote and am vocally against Kov living.

So, what new information have you picked up from 634?

hmm reread up to page 5

unvote, vote:DemonHybrid

go go go

hmm reread up to page 5

unvote, vote:DemonHybrid

go go go

EPIC QUESTION DODGE.

ooh, he's nervous.

up to page 14:

DH
haschel
esurio

Is my pick for scumteam. Feeling pretty good.

That felt good. DH's scumflip will probably win the game for the town.

unvote, vote: Twomz

I don't think twomz is scum. Pie isn't particularly scummy either. Think about DH. Have you reread?

I like the pressure on Twomz. However, I don't want Slippery "Kov" McSlick over here getting away.

You have a habit of keeping your vote on someone but pushing for someone else's lynch. You did this with TL, too.

Yeah, I don't see the problem with that. Active scumhunting means never to let your suspicions go of one person. I don't like Kov. I don't like Twomz a little less, but wouldn't mind pressure on him to get reads.

Jack is on drugs or something. I'm still waiting you to answer my question. I said it once, and here it is again: EPIC question dodge. Why is that post scummy to you? Why is the fact that I called what you did an epic question dodge scummy? What was it about your re-read that was scummy?

In fact, make a PBPA. I want you to speak a little more now.

Jack is on drugs or something. I'm still waiting you to answer my question. I said it once, and here it is again: EPIC question dodge. Why is that post scummy to you? Why is the fact that I called what you did an epic question dodge scummy? What was it about your re-read that was scummy?

In fact, make a PBPA. I want you to speak a little more now.

I WANT AT LEAST 10,000 WORDS OR YOU CAN'T VOTE, NOW GIVE ME A TRIPLE PBPA OF EVERY PLAYER IN THE GAME INCLUDING EVERY GAME FROM THEIR META OR UNVOTE NOW

Jack is on drugs or something. I'm still waiting you to answer my question. I said it once, and here it is again: EPIC question dodge. Why is that post scummy to you? Why is the fact that I called what you did an epic question dodge scummy? What was it about your re-read that was scummy?

In fact, make a PBPA. I want you to speak a little more now.

I WANT AT LEAST 10,000 WORDS OR YOU CAN'T VOTE, NOW GIVE ME A TRIPLE PBPA OF EVERY PLAYER IN THE GAME INCLUDING EVERY GAME FROM THEIR META OR UNVOTE NOW

So, you aren't willing to go indepth to create a valid case on me, in other words.

Not an attack. Another valid question on his methods. I didn't try to debunk his character or playstyle here; I simply stated the obvious. "You aren't willing to make a case. That looks scummy." is a different ballgame.

So, you aren't willing to go indepth to create a valid case on me, in other words.

This week on "inside the mafia play book" we have special guest DemonHybrid, who will explain to our viewers how to poison the well

without looking scummy and anxious

to discredit a vote from a townie.

So, you aren't willing to go indepth to create a valid case on me, in other words.

This week on "inside the mafia play book" we have special guest DemonHybrid, who will explain to our viewers how to poison the well

without looking scummy and anxious

to discredit a vote from a townie.

Oh, I'm doing nothing to discredit your vote. In fact, nothing of what I'm saying has anything to do with your vote.

And I haven't.

In fact, make a PBPA. I want you to speak a little more now.

Does this make anyone else lol? Jack is playing consistent with his play all game, which DH has avidly supported and talked up, but as soon as its vs. him its time to change.

Consistent? Yeah, I don't think so. I can't remember when someone's openly confronted Jack instead of just voting for him and leaving the convo be, but I can't be halfassed to ISO everyone, so if you find something, let me know.

EBWOP: He's had reasons for doing what he's done, but now that I'm questioning back on his reasoning, he's completely ignoring everything. Ignoring isn't consistent with his play, whereas implying and under-speaking his thoughts are.

This is where I start to get uppity at his bored VT play.

Before this post, try to find the alleged attack on Jack's character. It's Where's Waldo without Waldo!

[DemonHybrid]

"But wait, DH, you're attacking his character by saying that he's ignoring your questions!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ytCEuuW2_A

Ignoring my questions means he -has- no reasoning to debunk. I never protested against his vote.

[DemonHybrid]

Well, I'm just basically fed up with Vanillas waltzing in like they're important and completely fucking over town in an attempt to be all high and mighty cool. This happened a lot in SHM3 and was arguably the downfall of town that game.

Preview Edit: Me?

[DemonHybrid]

Before this post, try to find the alleged attack on Jack's character. It's Where's Waldo without Waldo!

So, you aren't willing to go indepth to create a valid case on me, in other words.

And how is that an attack on his character/any different than "Epic Question Dodge"?

That's one of those little fuckers that -look- like Waldo, but isn't. Try again.

[DemonHybrid]

And that's not an attack on him. That's me stating that he hasn't answered a question, which....is obvious. It's not an attack, it's what happened.

[DemonHybrid]

DH/Pie/Haschel

I win?

Uh.


DH, that reminds me. Epic Question Dodge can also fall under this category, because you're attacking Jack for his posting habits, fact or not, and using them to seemingly discredit his vote.

Rephrase it to "You are ignoring my questions."

Now, does that explicitly state that I think he's scummy because of it? Maybe he made a mistake? Overlooked it?

Yeah, it could mean a lot of things. I said that to remind him that he skipped over my questions. I restated them later on after I got back from work. It was not an attack because it doesn't have the suspicion backing it.

[DemonHybrid]

EBWOP: Basically, it's me asking for him to clarify himself. I bet your tune would be different if I was like "I'm extremely sorry, but I believe that you have overlooked my question. I believe that you are innocent, but would you mind responding to my inquiries for my own curiosity?"

[DemonHybrid]

I bet your tune would be different if I was like "I'm extremely sorry, but I believe that you have overlooked my question. I believe that you are innocent, but would you mind responding to my inquiries for my own curiosity?"

TBH, most likely, had you phrased it differently I would not have brought it up. But Mafia is mostly about what people say and how they say it. The way you worded it came off as more of an attack. I don't care how you "meant to say [this]" or whatever; it doesn't really change anything at this point.

If you know that it's just the way I worded it and not changed the underlying message, why would you comment on it in an attempt to debunk my argument?

[DemonHybrid]

Because when you say something that I find scummy due to phrasing, but then say "NO WAIT I MEANT TO SAY IT LIKE THIS" it definitely doesn't help my view of you.

It's not me "meaning to say it" like anything else. I meant to say it the way that I did, but the meaning is the same in both cases, so I shouldn't have to watch with how I say something if it has the same meaning.

[DemonHybrid]

*shakes head*

I'm not claiming or saying anything about my role, but obviously I claim town. You guys can try to make sense of my role if you want, but it's in town's best interest if I just don't say anything about it (trust me, if I do, it could mean the end of town).

Don't like it? Deal. Go ahead with your lynch.

Final scumlist:

Kov, Twomz, IP.

[DemonHybrid]

In the best interest of my own survival, I'm voting Twomz to keep it tied, since he's in the pool of scum of which needs to be cleaned from this game.

Unvote, Vote: Twomz

[DemonHybrid]

Wow, vague threat to the town and saying that claiming will be 'the end of the town'?

unvote, vote: DH

Not cool man. There is no town role that is better lynched than claimed.

Prepost Edit: I suppose I can add OMGUS, but the vote was coming before the vote was up... or w/e.

REREAD.

My role is pretty involved. Saying anything about it will put town at a disadvantage. I'm doing you guys a favor.

[DemonHybrid]

Whatever, man. Stubborn town, like always.

[DemonHybrid]

After a quick wiki readthrough, I found out that my other game's sadly mistaken about my role.

My claim is Town Neighbor. I had originally thought that soras just made up a name for masons, but this other game that I'm in came to the conclusion that neighbors just tell others that they're town, and that's their power.

I need to read into things a lot more.

[DemonHybrid]

EBWOP: Also, I seemed to remember that when I looked it up a few weeks ago, it said "Neighbors may give a friendly greeting to another person, saying "Hi, I'm town" as their night action, but don't know the person who they're talking to's alignment."

You would imagine my surprise when Neighbor in this case meant Mason.

[DemonHybrid]

Jack, as a side note, obviously when I know that I'm town, I'm not going to let myself get lynched, even if my tie vote looks scummy. What's the point in letting myself die if I know I'm innocent? I'm not one of those VIs that vote themselves and accept their lynch just because it's pretty much a given.

[DemonHybrid]

That I will not say. Sorry, him/her/they can choose to out him/her/themselves if they wish, but I'm not doing it for them.

[DemonHybrid]

Well, damn. My brain is fried from work.

No harm in saying that there's more than one partner. They can choose to claim if they want to, but that would just leave scum with more of a precise PR radar. If things get hairy in this game (like, town being at a complete disadvantage), I'll out them to throw some information in the mix.

[DemonHybrid]

ok, I can buy that.

unvote

Who's your partner?

Don't answer that, DH.

However, is your partner guaranteed to be town?

It didn't say in the role PM. I assume that they aren't, reading the wiki.

By the way:

Why would you want me to out more town and leave scum with less choices for PR, Jack?

[DemonHybrid]

ok, I can buy that.

unvote

Who's your partner?

Don't answer that, DH.

However, is your partner guaranteed to be town?

NEVERMIND, HE OUTED HIMSELF

I want town to remember this exchange. Jack's attitude is completely anti-town.

I still think you're a stubborn VT.

[DemonHybrid]

U so smrt hashul

What do you think? I'm kinda liking your 2b theory and can out them right now, but at the risk of town PRs being pretty much nearly identified.

[DemonHybrid]

And I can vouch for HC not being my Neighbor.

[DemonHybrid]

Quickly. Today almost ends.

[DemonHybrid]

There are 2 other neighbors.

[DemonHybrid]

I believe I can out a neighbor scum at this point.

[DemonHybrid]

EBWOP: I'm going to wait until it gets critical and people are jumping up and down for the info, because I really want to make sure that we make the right decision between HC's 2a and 2b theories.

[DemonHybrid]

jesus guys, dh is obvscum.

Frustrated VT, wants to be the center of attention.

There is potential information to be had. I don't understand why you're so ravenous for my lynch. It will come, don't worry. Before then, we have to make a good decision that will positively affect the rest of the game for town.

It's irking how you want to take that away from us.

[DemonHybrid]

And ortiz is the other.

Ortiz is scum.

[DemonHybrid]

Because I firmly believe that esurio is the one who actually cares about the fate of town here judging by your actions towards me all game. I am way more likely to believe HC's 2b plan since I'm having trouble believing that there'd be neighbors without a twist thrown into it.

Look into this more after I'm lynched. TL, in my eyes, is what he says he is. It'd be fruitless to focus on him at the moment.

New scumlist: Kov, Twomz, Ortiz. IP is frustrated, but okay IMHO. He's been pulling a Friend lately.

[DemonHybrid]

DH has a tendency to make his role seem more important than it really is. I tried to let him know he could claim without outing me/esurio here:

We'll see from the flip I guess. DH, can't you atleast be vague about it? I don't see how a role name would tell us anymore than your flip.

Btw if all 3 of us are town then the doctor just went from possible ~9 people to ~4 >_>

But we aren't. So, that's good.

[DemonHybrid]

Then kill me and find out how wrong you are. I'd gladly die to prove ortiz's scumminess.

[DemonHybrid]

...

DH you haven't said a thing about me all game. And suddenly I'm scummy. Awesome.

Jack: Can two neighbors be scum? Seems ehh.

I don't have to say anything to have thoughts.

In fact, I hadn't really thought about it much until very recently.

[DemonHybrid]

He's telling the truth about the neighbour thing.

I'm one of them.

I admit I'm slightly surprised at that. Any pre game chat from you guys? Aren't you at all suspicious of his ridiculous manner of claiming it? He was trying to make it sound like something super. Neighbor claim is not a towntell.

What's "everything we know" again?

I made it sound important because it is. On the veryyyyyyyyyyy slight chance that all 3 of us are town, it outs all of the PRs. Plus, if the 3 of us are left till the end of the game and we're all town, it's us 3 vs whoever's left, therefore basically outing the rest of the alignments.

3 people is a big number in a mini.

[DemonHybrid]

DH, why is ortiz scum, exactly?

His unwillingness to be outed, his case on me and his general attitude towards scumhunting vs. the number of town left. If PRs were such a big deal to him AND if he thought I was scum, outing himself to label me as scum shouldn't put the number of town left with PRs as such a big deal.

It's basically like this:

Neighbor A doesn't want to out everyone. They want to make sure the PRs stay hidden and that there's a big field to choose from and they believe all neighbors are town.
Neighbor B doesn't care about outing everyone, because he believes that there's scum on the neighbor team and it's worth it if he believes Neighbor C is town compared to Neighbor A.

You can't have both. Ortiz cares about the PRs staying hidden AND votes me for being scum.

[DemonHybrid]

DH, why is ortiz scum, exactly?

His unwillingness to be outed, his case on me and his general attitude towards scumhunting vs. the number of town left. If PRs were such a big deal to him AND if he thought I was scum, outing himself to label me as scum shouldn't put the number of town left with PRs as such a big deal.

It's basically like this:

Neighbor A doesn't want to out everyone. They want to make sure the PRs stay hidden and that there's a big field to choose from and they believe all neighbors are town.
Neighbor B doesn't care about outing everyone, because he believes that there's scum on the neighbor team and it's worth it if he believes Neighbor C is town compared to Neighbor A.

You can't have both. Ortiz cares about the PRs staying hidden AND votes me for being scum.

EBWOP: "Neighbor B doesn't care about outing everyone, because he believes that there's scum on the neighbor team and it's worth it if he believes Neighbor X is town compared to Neighbor Y."

[DemonHybrid]

Yep, go ahead. I'm still going to fight it, but I don't mind at this point. Not going to do that "vote myself" martyr bullshit, but I think I've done what I can.

[DemonHybrid]

What motivation does a scum neighbor have for not wanting to be outed?

Trust and safety.

I can say that I think you wanting the PRs to stay hidden is an attempt to look town. Don't want to be caught rolefishing, right?

[DemonHybrid]

DH, who's to say there aren't other power roles? Just because mini normals get reviewed for "normalcy" doesn't

necessarily

mean they are balanced.

Out of everything in Ortiz's play, the

only

thing that has given me pause was his unwillingness to be outed, and with that I don't even think I could put words to why that sets off my radar, because there are town reasons to not want to be outed, too. The rest of his play has been fairly exemplary, and I don't think one unexpected reaction is enough to think he's scum.

Ortiz is a competent scum player. So is MvK, from what I hear.

Just keep your eye on him, is all I ask. I still say that he shouldn't be voting for me if he didn't want to out town PRs. Something doesn't add up about his priorities.

[DemonHybrid]

Why would I need to rolefish if I already knew our roles? Bad attempt to put suspicion on me.

Rolefish the other townie's roles.

[DemonHybrid]

1. You didn't answer earlier. Did you think neighbors were masons until recently?

1. I was confused because I played in another game with Neighbors where they were treated differently by town. Since we had our QT, I figured that soras was using the term differently, since I -seemed- to remember that they were used differently, but I was mistaken. So yeah, I thought they were just neatly named masons.

Alright...maybe I'm just not being clear.

So you have Ortiz, esurio and I as neighbors.

The neighbor problem is that if you out all of the neighbors, assuming that they're all town, the number of town left that are unclaimed is much smaller, therefore allowing scum to pick off PRs pretty easily.

Now, I claim. I hold off on outing the other neighbors, because I'm not sure what town wants to do with this information.

Ortiz makes a post saying that He doesn't want me to out the neighbors, because

[DemonHybrid]

I was typing this in quick reply, give me a second to finish my post.

[DemonHybrid]

EBWOP to 801:

ortiz1193 wrote:
1. You didn't answer earlier. Did you think neighbors were masons until recently?


1. I was confused because I played in another game with Neighbors where they were treated differently by town. Since we had our QT, I figured that soras was using the term differently, since I -seemed- to remember that they were used differently, but I was mistaken. So yeah, I thought they were just neatly named masons.

Alright...maybe I'm just not being clear.

So you have Ortiz, esurio and I as neighbors. The neighbor problem is that if you out all of the neighbors, assuming that they're all town, the number of town left that are unclaimed is much smaller, therefore allowing scum to pick off PRs pretty easily.

Now, I claim. I hold off on outing the other neighbors, because I'm not sure what town wants to do with this information.

Ortiz makes a post saying that He doesn't want me to out the neighbors, because of the bolded part.

Now, if he was truly sincere about not outing the PRs, he would have thought the 3 of us were town, and it wouldn't be worth scumhunting the neighbors, however, he's been pushing a case on me ever since he joined the game.

Sorry about that, I hit Submit by accident and 801 happened. Devil spawn post.

[DemonHybrid]

Anyway, because of this, he's being wary of rolefishing (major town points) while disposing of a suspected townie all at the same time.

[DemonHybrid]

DH, if you thought ortiz was a mason, then how come you weren't surprised when he thought you were scum? He put the lynching vote on you near deadline.

Well, masons don't want to be associated with each other until it really counts, so that's where the suspicion comes in. Wasn't really sure why Ortiz wanted to kill me at the time, to be honest (instead of just voicing suspicion instead)

[DemonHybrid]

Now, if he was truly sincere about not outing the PRs, he would have thought the 3 of us were town, and it wouldn't be worth scumhunting the neighbors, however, he's been pushing a case on me ever since he joined the game.

I was acknowledging the fact that I might be wrong. I'm not much of a tunneler.

If you were town

you wouldn't have outed me, you clearly understood my intentions and

even leaving one of us alive widens the PR search enough to have an impact.

See, you're talking as if you assume that all of us are town. If even one of us are scum, outing us doesn't widen the PR search at all. That's what I'm saying.

[DemonHybrid]

EBWOP: See, you're talking as if you assume that all of us are town in bolded quote 2.

I worked all day in the sun. Brain's fried, I'm misclicking and mistyping everywhere. If I make stupid grammar/spelling/whatever mistakes, don't hold it against me.

[DemonHybrid]

If even one of us are scum, outing us doesn't widen the PR search at all.

How so?

Scum neighbors can talk to the neighbors as well as the rest of the scum team, right?

If there was one scum on the neighbor team, wouldn't you think that he would have told the rest of the scum who the neighbors are?

[DemonHybrid]

And ortiz, if that's so, what would be the point of worrying about PRs when outing the neighbors doesn't change the amount of information that scum has of town?

[DemonHybrid]

whew.

Seriously people

6 hours of the sun, limited water AND fast-paced logical thinking DO NOT MIX

[DemonHybrid]

Pie is most likely town. He was just flustered for a while.

[DemonHybrid]

while being half of the game amirite

He's made -some- good points. He's had a LOT of heat on him, you have to admit, and with everyone picking apart everything that he says, he did pretty well in a defense.

You, of all people, should know how frustrating it can be.

[DemonHybrid]

while being half of the game amirite

He's made -some- good points. He's had a LOT of heat on him, you have to admit, and with everyone picking apart everything that he says, he did pretty well in a defense.

You, of all people, should know how frustrating it can be.

Don't completely clear him. He plays good scum.

On that subject, don't completely clear anybody.

Pie is

most likely

town. He was just flustered for a while.

I'm not.

[DemonHybrid]

I take 25% of the total players and make slots. In this case, 3 scum slots (out of 12).

If someone isn't in one of those 3 slots, they are either town, neutral or scummyish to me, but not full right-out scum. There's no need to throw suspicions everywhere when there's only X amount of scum.

With ortiz being scum IMO and taking your spot on the scum team/me taking a quick look at your ISO, I can see most of them at this point just being mistakes and oversights. Ortiz seems much more controlled with what he's been saying, and my opinion on Twomz/Kov hasn't changed.

You aren't the most town of everyone here. I'd say you're high neutral/low townish at this point to me. Those that are taking what you say at face value (like I have been) are still the ones calling you scum.

[DemonHybrid]

*most of your posts

[DemonHybrid]

TL:

You start a conversation you can't even finish it
You're talkin' a lot, but you're not sayin' anything
When I have nothing to say, my lips are sealed

Say something once, why say it again?

PSYCHO KILLER
Qu'est-ce que c'est?
fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa better

[DemonHybrid]

If he flips town I will be in shock and dismay.

"I'll say something utterly pointless in an overly grandiose and overdramatic manner.

That reminds me...I...

MISLYNCHED SOMEONE IN MY GAME OF MAFIA!"

SHOCK!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VvO3rjiFeI

[DemonHybrid]

Can someone please explain to me why Parama is using Fugitive's account this game?

Stop comparing me to Parama. I'm nothing like him.

If DH is going to get lynched then I'm claiming.

Please don't. =\

[DemonHybrid]

TL: I've said what I needed to say about the neighbor ordeal. Find your own response, it's like a 2 page long response.

Also, you should watch more Zetsubou Sensei. Amazing stuff.

[DemonHybrid]

By the way.

Unvote, Vote: Ortiz

If I'm going to die, I'm going out voting for who I feel is the most scummy.

[DemonHybrid]

I can't comment on esurio and HC wanting to believe 2a just because they would have a case on you. Sorry.

I find it iffy, but HC's doing a very active amount of scumhunting now that the claim is out and esurio's just another townie neighbor. I really like her outing herself.

I don't know how to reply to your last point. In a nutshell...again.

Ortiz voting for me is scummy because his claim that he wants to protect town PRs assumes that all 3 neighbors are town. Conflicting priorities.

[DemonHybrid]

Upon a few seconds of pondering, claiming anything right now is fucking stupid of you, if you are PR or Vanilla.

This falls under AtE, as well.

FoS: Fugi

So, you're reasoning for suspecting him is because he wants to claim?

Isn't that just anti-town at the least? (Anti-town doesn't HAVE to mean scum, please keep that in mind before I smash my head on a rock and splash boiling blood on you)

[DemonHybrid]

YOUR THREAD ASPLODE

This isn't unlike TL's usual play. Keep that in mind.

Preview edit: You're such a derp. #864.

[DemonHybrid]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2a4gyJsY0mc

By the way, amazing link. I am a happy DH.

[DemonHybrid]

Point 1: No, I don't agree. I just don't really have that much of an opinion quite yet on them.
Point 2: I already said I believe 2b. Over and over again.
Point 3: Maybe, but I'd rather focus on Ortiz's scummy priority screw.

[DemonHybrid]

So I guess I am L-1.

Don't really know what else to say. Do the right thing and actually learn from this lynch instead of disregarding it. Don't be stubborn town like -everyone else- is.

[DemonHybrid]

vote: Deadline extension

Why not.

[DemonHybrid]

Weird in a "everyone who thinks I have anything to do with town is scum by association" way of course.

This is Jack we're talking about.

[DemonHybrid]

*and Pie we're talking about.

Sorry. Funny things happen when you've just woken up.

[DemonHybrid]

Well, I said what I needed to say about Ortiz and Kov at least. If anyone needs to ask me something, go ahead, but I have no other original thoughts to give that wouldn't be me repeating myself.

[DemonHybrid]

Well, the only interaction I had with Ortiz before the neighbor outing was the Kov ordeal. I gave him town points at the time for putting up a good argument....

...looking back though, I don't like his first post with the reads.

He says he can't get a read on Jack....I find that staying a little on the safe side with a tricky character like Jack is somewhat scummy, but furthermore, I think he's been portraying a very stubborn VT-like playstyle all game. There are those that find it scummy, those that find it town, but very few that are hard-pressed to really find a read on him. I don't really like it that much. Even those that were on the edge have found their niche on the Jack argument.

His read on TL is exactly like everyone elses. "Could be town, but he looks scummy at face value". I find this going with the flow moreso than having a good read.

His reaction to Twomz seems to be bus behavior. I firmly believe that most 3 man mafia teams are set-up as such: There's a scummy talker, a lurker and one that people trust. It happened in SHM:OT, with diddin being the scummy talker, 2003/FingerQuick being a lurker, me being the one that people trust. Skimming through games, it's been like that too. Keeping that in mind, I'd like to think that this game fits that niche as well, and I think it's a cop-out to blame Twomz for lurking most of all (He mentioned buddying with Pie, but Pie's not obvscum)

He seems to think r2r is fully town as well, when his play hasn't really been that much different than Twomz...sure, he's put up a good case or two, but looking through, he's only a skip above Twomz and Kov when it comes to the lurking regard, especially when I see him browsing the forum often enough and not saying anything.

His Fugitive read is also a safe call.

I just overall think he's been playing it safe and only raising a case when there's an opportune time to do so. Stuff like "Why are you blaming Kov for making a bad gambit when you yourself did the same thing?" when it's hardly defensible...we both can't prove why we did what we did or even if what we did was real/planned out. Instead of making a case based on actual mixed up priorities and post proof like I did, he relies on safeties and obvious arguments.

I guess that's basically it in a nutshell, but I think my catch produces more than enough scumminess to disclude all of this analysis and still be an eyebrow raiser.

[DemonHybrid]

Its best to lynch one of the neighbors today isn't it? When DH flips scum it should clear me/esurio. Only reason someone shouldn't support the lynch of one of us 3 is if they think we're all town, and I would assume you don't considering 2/3 are on your scum list. >_>

Big assumption there. "It should clear me/esurio".

So, you -know- that there's one scum on the neighbor team? What about the possibility of two?

[DemonHybrid]

"playing it safe" - I came into the game pushing for a Twomz lynch and then pushing for your lynch. Over half the players in this game have played 10x as cautious/safe as I have. DH has no case on me, he literally decided I was scum when esurio said DH was town and I said DH was scum and chose me as the most likely scum neighbor. He just went through and looked for something to make me scummy, and the best he could come up with is my opening read post where I called the 2 hardest people to read neutral.

Yeah. Picking on the lurker and then the one with the most heat on him IS playing it safe.

And I guess you completely forgot the neighbor outing. "Oops, I guess I forgot scum can talk to their partners if they're neighbor scum" doesn't cut it.