TV Mafia Game Over - Scum Win

[MagnaofIllusion]

/confirm my awesome character!

[MagnaofIllusion]

I'm way more awesome than you.

A. Given you are vezok, no you aren't.
B. Your character cannot be possibly as cool as mine. Period.

[MagnaofIllusion]

So Zel1nk are you scum again this game? Just turn yourself in if you are and save us the trouble

[MagnaofIllusion]

I'm not sure I follow the arguments against name claiming.. surely the roles would be random, and the characters simply providing some flavour as opposed to full briefs?

Ok, say you are correct in your assessment.

What advantage does Town get from Mass Claiming Names?

Scum don't have to worry about fake-claiming via scrambled flavor.

If Town doesn't get any advantage from doing it then it is an exercise in wasting posts.

[MagnaofIllusion]

VOTE: vezok

RVS Wagon go.

Also you have dared to challenge the ultimate coolness of my character. You must die.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Yes, thus there is no point in doing it if Town doesn't get a benefit.

Now stop fretting about it and vote Vezok!

[MagnaofIllusion]

I can't think of anything

VOTE: Vezok

My understanding is that you have just joined MS from another site after the ‘challenge’ thread in MD. Is this understanding correct?

If so do you have previous interactions or knowledge of Vezok elsewhere?

--

VOTE: Easjo i replaced him in another game

Good-posting. Easjo will lurk pointlessly in this game until flaking.

--

Unvote: Chevre
Vote: ThreeIsFrench

First rule of society. Never trust the Frenchies.

So, please elaborate on why you preferred this vote to Vezok after being specifically invited.

--

Why are people pushing the vezok lynch?

Why didn’t you place some sort of RVS stage vote?

--

On vezok: I agree that a mass nameclaim is neutral at best for town and it consequently should not be done. I don't think his request warrants a speedlynch, though (I don't know whether people are serious about it or it is just part of the jokevote stage),

but a pressure for him to fullclaim seems good.

In regards to the bolded … um whut????

UNVOTE: Vezok
VOTE: Rodion

Why, if you think pressuing him to fullclaim (which is a scumtastic idea in RVS) is a good plan did you vote DX?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Stop quote pyramiding please. There's no reason to have a five deep quote for a response that is basically two lines long.

And more Rod vote would also be great!

[MagnaofIllusion]

Talking about vezok is my opinion on why he shouldn't be speedlynched for merely suggesting a mass nameclaim. Moreover, the suggestion that he fullclaims is a way to deter that idea. Even if you think he is scummy, why go for a speedlynch before hearing him claim (I see no pro-town reasoning behind this idea)? I said this because of this post:

So are you saying him full-claiming well before he gets anywhere near L-1 is a good way to deter a ‘speedlynch’? I want to be clear on this point.

This is my first non-marathon game on this site and I don't know any of you. I was not sure whether you were seriously planning to speedlynch vezok or not.

Why, regardless of this, are you worried about a ‘speedlynch’ when he never acquired more than 4 votes?

Magna/Vifam - careful there, as leading mislynches against new players that theoretically shouldn't know how to defend themselves properly is considered a scum tell where I come from.

1. Slight Appeal to Emotion (in classifying yourself as a ‘mislynch’) noted.
2. Where do you come from? Do you regularly assume that recently signed up players there have no Mafia experience by which to “defend themselves”. On your site is it standard procedure to never apply pressure to new players as a scum-hunting measure?

--

(My bold)- Why do you feel the need to label your vote as being on an RVS wagon? I think it is quite clear, considering this was the second vote of the game, that we were still in RVS. There is no reason why a townie would have to make it so clear that their vote is a RVS vote. This looks to me like you are trying to distance yourself from the wagon if it were to result in a lynch on vezok.

Ok, so your assertions are that –

1. Town players never label votes RVS votes?
2. I’m trying to distance from a theoretical lynch that never got more than 4 votes off the ground?

You may want to look at Rodion's join date, he is clearly new to MS.net and is obviously new to the way we do things here. I expect better than this from townMoI. It appears to me that you are grasping at straws in an attempt to get a real wagon going since a vezok policy lynch is not going to happen (which I think is what you were hoping for).

Oh, so pressuring players to determine their alignment and level of competency isn’t allowed?

As for grasping at straws – I think this post by you demonstrates that particular tactic quite well.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I'm not sure where the [REDACTED] came from.. was that a prior game title or was that a smarmy way of saying "I've read his previous games"?

[REDACTED] is a way to reference ongoing game in a way that skirts site rules enough that it generally isn't Modkill worthy.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I find the push on Jily for ‘fence-sitting’ to be very weak. The lack of commentary is more fair but I don’t see it as strongly scummy at this very early stage of the game.

@Zinger

– are you going to do any actual scum-hunting this game as opposed to just paraphrasing flavor from “My Name is Earl”?

PATB’s post re: Andrew at

140

is good-posting.

--

Gah, didn't even notice that. I agree with this.


VOTE: Jillynne

UNVOTE: Rodion
VOTE: Vifam

This is the second time you’ve hopped right after someone else’s vote with “Me Too” reasoning (the first was my vote on Rodion). I’m not seeing anything that looks like actual scum-hunting in your back and forth with Marco or any of your other posts.

I disagree with the fence-sitting portion of the attack.

--

Says who? last year when the conversion happened, my computer/internet didn't agree with the new board, so I couldn't really do anything.

You flaked and were lynched before you could be replaced at deadline Day 1 in Mini 937, which happened well before the conversion.

So that explanation is out the door.

--

No, I played SC2 custom map a bit and found my way here independently. I've never heard of vezok before this thread.

Ok, so why did you say you didn’t see any reasons to not wagon Vezok if you have no previous knowledge of his play?

You do get strong Town points for noting that DavidX didn’t answer my question and bringing it up.

--

1. I have never, ever, ever seen a townie label their vote as being in RVS. Have you ever done this before? Have you even seen other townies do this before?

It’s a pretty common occurrence, IMO. I thought about going through your completed games to see if it had happened before in games you played but lost the drive for that long slog.

@Pappums

– I second the notion that you divulge whether this is an Alt account or a Hydra account.

No, that is fine of course, I just saw it as going after an easy target.

Ok, please explain the process you use to differentiate between valid pressuring and ‘going after an easy target’, which is growing to be one of my top 5 hated phrases here on MS.

--

I never said "fullclaim now". I said: "if you're really going to pursue this speedlynch idea over his unfortunate comment regarding the mass nameclaim, at least give him the opportunity to full claim".

As has been pointed out that’s not what you said but what you intended to say. I personally read it very differently. It may well be a case of awkward phrasing so I’m not going to look at it any further.

1 - Well, I am a mislynch. Period. Granted, scum would claim to be town as well, but I'm not appealing to emotion as much as stating a fact, fact being "I am town".

That’s exactly why it is an Appeal to Emotion. You are stating as a ‘fact’ that you are Town with no other support than “I know my Role-PM”. Scum, again, are just as likely to say exactly that. Town shows they are Town via solid play, not by saying “I’m a mislynch”.

2a - ConquerClub. It's actually a site for the board game "Risk", but the forums are big and there is a mafia subforum. Here's the link to the subforum:

I took a quick glance at some games going on and some of the “Here’s Mafia” informational threads. My gut first impression is that the general level of play is not as high as here but certainly not anywhere near as primitive as other sites.

2b - Yes, we regularly assume that recent signed up players have no mafia experience, unless they claim otherwise.

Well here on MS if you are playing outside “The Road to Rome” it is pretty much standard practice to assume you have sufficent skill levels to play with the ‘big boys’.

2c - Obviously, roles are given out randomly and new players are not "immune" to being scum, so they can and should be pressured.

Problem is, if you don't have strong evidence against the "newbies",

making a tempest in a teapot seems like an attempt to go for the easy lynch and, as such, is viewed as a scum tell.

Bolded for emphasis – the thread has barely been open 72 hours. What level of ‘strong evidence’ are you expecting at this stage of the game. Pressuring players is part of developing reads.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Crap, alt slipped.

This is totally unrelated to the game so I’m segregating it at the top –

Are you really telling me you have been here 1.5 months and felt the need to already have an Alt?

--

Magna > What question? I don't see a question I didn't respond to.. but if you repeat it, I'll address it.

My ISO post 6 (real post 79).

KillerJ also summarized it in his ISO post 5 (real post 131).

--

Our problem with labelling the vote RVS (and fwiw, I don't think I've seen a townie go to the point of labelling their RVS vote RVS) is unnecessary. It actually undermines the pressure value of the vote, and does leave open the possibility for later of 'My vote was just RVS, I didn't expect all these other players to make the wagon get out of hand like they have done.' Help build a wagon before distancing from it later. That said, we wish to note that

The point of the Vezok wagon wasn’t to pressure Vezok. You understand that, right?

It was to gauge the reaction of other players based on how they react to said wagon.

All that said, we are aware of the trap of finding something small someone does early slightly scummy, then they argue with you and you get into a pattern of being each other's interlocutors. Whatever we might think of MoI's tactics, he is at least trying.

Yeah, we are certainly going to have to disagree about the “Newbie Elevator” theory. If you are playing outside the “Road to Rome”, especially in themed games, you are assumed (by me at least) to have enough of a passing understanding of how things are done here.

Incidentally, we think Vezok's likely town. Scum tend to try to avoid becoming one of the first few wagons. Any plan you can propose, you can pretty much guarantee someone's going to find it antitown and call you scum for suggesting it. And if it isn't antitown, then, well, it's helping town and why would scum want to do that?

Please clarify what you are saying here because, to quote the Simpsons, “I know all those words, but that makes no sense to me”.

On another note – I’m glad to know that Fonz is the other half of the Hydra. If you live longer than me it’s pretty much an assurance you are scum

--

That's because both of them did something legitimately scummy. And Jyl's defense of Vezok when the BW on Vezok obviously wasn't going strong at the time is the scummiest thing yet.

Yet those things were only scummy ‘to you’ after someone else posted similar thoughts.

EBWOP: Besides, they're others on this wagon, if you're REALLY looking for the one that seems most opportunistic, you should be aiming for:

And the scumdar goes wild!!! DING DING DING DING DING

Blatant “I’m doing something scummy but look over here this guys is more scummy vote him instead” tell detected.

Seriously – Nero is scum for his single case of bandwagon hopping, but you aren’t scum when you’ve done it multiple times?

[MagnaofIllusion]

I didn't see the need to put pressure on him. I didn't, and still don't, think Vezok's done anything warranting that pressure, and frankly I saw the French and my mind clouded.

So you didn’t like a RVS pressure wagon on Vezok because he didn’t do anything suspect, but you were happy to vote someone for being French?

Into my “Acceptable Day 1 Lynch” pool you go.

--

Strikes me that in that case, labelling it as RVS still is counterproductive to the stated aim. More to the point, I've seen Vezok quicklynched within a couple of pages and 48 RL hours before simply for being him.

Please show me an example other than Vi’s “Mafia of the Complicated Seraph Mechanics” or whatever it was called because that quichlynch was completely policy in response to “Objection” Mafia and IMO was frankly deserved.

Because I haven’t seen any others.

1) Scum don't want to help town, or get wagoned.
2) If you propose a plan, if it is good you will help town, if it is bad you will get wagoned (and sometimes if it's good you'll get wagoned anyway by people who see things differently).
3) Therefore, scum will steer clear of suggesting any kind of claim or action plan early on.

Same works for policy lynching. You know there's going to be a significant minority of the town calling for the head of anyone who dares suggest anything that looks like a policy lynch, therefore people proposing D1 policy lynches are usually town.

How this elaborate theory labels Vezok as Town I’m not getting.

--

That's not what I'm trying to get at, I'm saying, how is Nero any more scummy then I am if he has done the same thing? Does the fact that he opened up with BLATENT sheeping mean anything to you? You also disagree that Jyl is fencesitting, so why aren't you directing any of your scumhunting at the person who STARTED the BW?

1. Are you trying to suggest that Nero is more scummy than you for blatantly sheeping because his first post came later in the game? Despite the fact that you have played ‘Follow the Leader’ multiple times?

No, I don’t find Nero more scummy. His reasoning for voting Jily is buddying, which is different than fence-sitting. Yes, they refer to the same post but his suggested motivations make some level of sense to me.

2. So ‘BLATENT sheeping’ is scummy? So you doing it twice is fairly strong evidence you are scum then, correct?

3. Here’s my original quote so we can discuss it in full –

I find the push on Jily for ‘fence-sitting’ to be very weak. The lack of commentary is more fair but I don’t see it as strongly scummy at this very early stage of the game.

Again … I find the fence-sitting a weak accusation because fence-sitting on whether someone is a VI or not has nothing to do with alignment.

I do understand the ‘lack of commentary / analysis’ angle but don’t find it very strong this early in the game.

Why should I be attacking the originator of the Jily wagon again? I don’t have a Town read on her. Just because I don’t agree with a main point against her doesn’t mean I think she’s Town.

Sadly, the only possible defense is "I agreed with their reads".

So it is ok (aka Not a scum-tell) to wagon if you agree with someone else’s reads.

Why didn’t you ask Nero whether he agrees with the other reads on Jily?

I’m seeing some strong Cognitive Dissonance in your play that I’m having a hard time not thinking isn’t driven by a scum perspective.

[MagnaofIllusion]

You can't be him because My Name Is....

Wait a minute. I see what you did there.

Vote: Zinger

!

Ok, so no comment on ANYTHING else going on in the game?

[MagnaofIllusion]

My vote was quite obviously a joke. The seemingly random pressure wagon on Vezok had potential to snowball, and frankly I'd rather not contribute to a lynch without information.

And on that note.

unvote: 3isFrench

Ok ... so your obvious joke vote is retracted.

Why aren't you actually voting someone who is scummy? You can't tell me that this far in there isn't something that has happened that isn't vote worthy.

Hell, I'd even take some actually commentary on the leading wagons - what do you think of Jily and Vifam.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Busdriver is a very rare role. I've only seen it in one game and that was specifically a busdriver game. Furthermore all the busdrivers were town (iirc). So I have never seen a mafia busdriver and I wouldn't expect to for exactly the reason you talk about i.e. that it could prove exceptionally powerful for the scum if a vig claims.

Mafia aligned busdrivers do exist. See Supernatural Mafia (Large Theme) for an example of a scum bus-driver.

It is an increadibly powerful scum role and thus fairly rare.

[MagnaofIllusion]

UNVOTE: Vifam

The wagon has grown sufficiently large that pressure on Vifam is fairly strong. I’ll be returning my vote to him if his response to my latest round of questions isn’t satisfactory

--

Actually, you're doing a slamdunk job ATM. Vifam might be scum, but the response sounds like it would be from town also. But, that's probably because I'm soft-hearted.

1. Just because I am active and doing a ‘slamdunk’ job doesn’t mean you should be happy to just let me do all the work.
2. Fence-sitting on Vifam noted.

@Peregrine

– Please clarify … were you intending to counter-claim Zinger’s Earl name-claim? I didn’t think so when I read it but Zinger indicated he thinks you might be.

--

Please provide links to both. I have only ever seen this happen once, from lynched scum, but it's an ongoing game so I cant fully disclose it until the game is over.

I’ll go digging when I have time to go through the many threads that I read and get back to you on this eventually. I’m not going to lie, it isn’t going to be a high priority for me. The one example that I concretely know about is also an on-going game …

@Pappums

– Aside from me and Chevre can you give us a few more reads to work with?

--

ZeL1nk is clearly holding grudges across from a previous game. He really shouldn't do that, and it is definitely not helpful to the town if he carries on with that behavior.

That’s a pretty ridiculous premise … if anyone has reason to hold a grudge from Superhero Mafia it is me not Zel1nk who directly benefitted from your play.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Mod – I’ll be V/LA from 4pm EST today until Monday morning for my usual weekend family duties.

--

God damm it.

I'll defend myself later.

See this … this makes my skin crawl with scummy goosebumps.

Before this post you played a Marathon game Wedensday and made three posts in other, on-going Non-marathon games since your last post here.

After this post you were more than able to post about 8 times in another on-going non-Marathon game.

This smells of thread avoidance which I strongly believe is a pretty significant scum-tell. See Umbrage’s Jungle Republic and CJDrum and Sloth / havingfitz. Both exhibited that behavior and both were scum.

I’m giving you an ultimatum

– I have unanswered questions for you at

170

. I want answers to all those questions before I get back Monday morning. Otherwise you immediately get my vote right back and I will run your wagon up the flagpole so everyone can salute.

--

i skimmed again, but i saw moi mention my post was a good one. then no other comment? seems like a really random thing to talk about.

Stop skimming then because in no Universe that exists would I have called your posting to this point ‘good’.

But to that point - why, as PaTB noticed, did you not follow up with your suspicions with an actual vote.

--

It is hardly ridiculous at all. Look at the facts: ZeL1nK claimed he would kill me Night 1 before I had said ANYTHING in this game what-so-ever. Therefor, the only motivation for him having said that MUST be something from a previous game, because there was nothing in this game as of yet to bring him to that decision.

I see no other explanation, and ZeL1nK has yet to offer up one.

Have you considered reaction fishing, for one, as the personal explanation that doesn’t involve Zinger-paranioa? [/off Jehovah’s Witness vibe]

--

Thoughts on DavidX? And on Leonshade's last post?

1. I thought I made my read on DavidX clear when I called him an acceptable Day 1 lynch. He reads as scummy. I see avoidance of taking strong positions and signs of active-lurking. His “I suspect Vifam” followed by a Vifam vote much later looks very much like he’s planning his moves.

That actually makes me believe Vifam and DavidX aren’t aligned. Depending on whether we are in Multi-scum or not (damn it GreyICE, why aren’t you in this game. You have a much better gut feel for that sort of thing) that may or may not clear one of the two of them, potentially.

2. Leonshade’s ‘cross-post’ with me is also fence-sitting on Vifam.

--

Attempt to distance yourself from the bandwagon, noted.

VOTE: Leonshade

I haven’t looked back at Leonshade re: Vifam but I disagree with this statement.

Distancing himself from the bandwagon is what Pvt. Slate did – saying Vifam was clearly Town and we had best look elsewhere while not providing direct support (other than nebulous ‘vibes’) as to why he thinks Vifam is Town. That's possibly looking for Town cred when the suggested flip matches with his statements (and also possibly an honest read).

Leonshade’s fence-sitting fits more with scum looking to express suspicion of Vifam but not actually supporting the wagon in the case that Vifam flips scum.

Of course, as I said above the lack of knowledge aka Multi-scum or not hinders making any strong analysis of motivations Day 1.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Vifam has asked to be replaced. A search is now on going.

VOTE: Vifam.

A request for replacement under pressure with not a word posted in thread about why? Not kosher at all.

DavidX would probably get my vote if Vifam hadn't pulled this move.

I need to look at Rodion's activity but he seems to have dropped off the radar since he stopped being under pressure. Not sure if he is V/LA or not.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Anyways hello. Claim time right?

I'm town tracker, nice BW putting tracker at L-2 derp.

Read the tread and get back to us about how derp it was based on your predecessor.

But you don't lynch a claimed Town PR Day 1 no matter how bad their play is.

UNVOTE: Junpei
VOTE: DavidX

[MagnaofIllusion]

Junpei - That's a nice biography. When you complete you readthrough tell us who is scum please.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Today has not been fun.

Catch-up posting tonight or tomorrow morning.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Ok ... I'm too tired to do a solid catch-up tonight.

Please don't hammer anyone before I've had a chance to post in the AM.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Note before I go to bed ...

All this discussion about what happens in regards to the Hypobomb is pretty useless and rather distracting to the process of actually looking for scum.

If he is some SuperSaint / Bomb its best to kill him via lynch with someone scummy hammering. But rather than sheeping onto him with the generous deadline lets get back to looking for non-Third Party scum, shall we? Worse comes to worse we can lynch him today if time gets tight and we can't decide on a good scum candidate.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Large wall catch-up incoming – if you want to bitch about it tough luck. Reading isn’t hard.

--

@Mod – is Pine still in this game?

--

Zinger, in my mind, is an acceptable lynch at deadline if we can’t agree on Mafia candidate. Claimed Third Parties don’t benefit Town – see AGM’s Choose Your Side Large Theme game for what happens when Town gave 3rd Party Parama a free pass.

Zinger’s specific claimed Third Party is either very Anti-Town (via permanently blocking a Town Power-role) or potentially a big threat to the scum team.

Meransil on the other hand is a VI who has adopted the “Hey, if I go out of my way to look scummy people will see I’m Town” style of play and is doing a bad, bad job of it. I’d rather that Meran get vigged if it comes down to either Meran or Zinger at deadline.

--

All the Hydra-head talk is bad. Whether Hydras sign posts or not is irrelevant unless you are a huge believer in following Meta. I’m not. What I am is a strong believer that Hydra Dissonance (regardless of head claiming or not) is a strong scum tell. Examples of that popping up will draw my votes like lightning. Such as this

Other head did that, I didn't see the Vifam wagon at all.

so... ask him?

I went back. Your slot did vote for Vifam.

VOTE: DavidX
VOTE: Silverdrummer

--

Magna gives an ultimatum... that doesn't seem to good.

Elaborate. What is bad about forcing a player to answer in thread questions that are VERY pertanent to getting a read via threatening to vote them? Also I like how you carefully made sure not to say for certain it was scummy but intimated it. Good work with the soft accusation. And by good work I mean scummy.

Isn't this effectively what you are doing with your "Vote Pine" push ... attempting to get contributions to the thread from him?

I'm NOT digging magna's vote on vifom for replacing... it's always a null tell ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS.

No, it isn’t. All replace-outs are not the same. Go look at Sloth in Umbrage’s “Jungle Republic” and theplague42 in LMP’s “KGB Mafia” for examples. I can elaborate further but this looks like some “Hey, Junpei claimed Town PR” grandstanding to me.

Your lurker hunting in

351

is noted.

Why are you picking Cherve when Pine is doing the same exact thing? Why don't you get bad vibes from him?

And the question applies equally to you. If Chevre was doing the same things as Pine why didn’t she make your Top 4 scum list?

--

chkballing classic scum, posting huge wall of reads.

Oh, so posting large amounts of reads and digestible information is a scum tell? Please elaborate on why.

Also is Oversoul scum too for doing the same thing?

--

267: @MOI: I'm confused here.The post Killer quoted had Leon agreeing with the VIfam wagon but not moving because it was too large (in fact, Killer himself made the vibes claim in favour of Vifam in 177)

I’m saying that Leonshade isn’t distancing from the wagon. He, in my mind, was fence-sitting. I disagree with Killer’s statement that Leonshade was distancing.

Distancing from the wagon is exactly what Pvt Slate (speaking of which … where did he go?) did … he called Junpei’s slot Town with no reasons why.

That clear things up?

--

Rereading this, it doesn't make sense from an individual standpoint. A wagon must consist of multiple players in this game, so the point couldn't have totally collectively been to gauge the reaction of other players, unless you're all some sort of hive mind.

Oh really? So you are saying I can’t make reads on reactions to a particular wagon as an individual based on who hopped on and who didn’t and why they didn’t?

--

Chevre's wall post strikes me as the kind of wall post a lurker scum would make after her scumbuddies prodded her and said "hey, you're lurking too much!"

I want to know why you are assuming scum have Daytalk to do such a “Prod”. Because the rules don’t state anything at all about Daytalk. Especially since Chevre was indeed Mod prodded.

--

I don't think it's paticularly of note when two heads of a hydra disagree with each other. I wouldn't expect masons to always agree 100% on everything and it's the same with a hydra: diddin and I don't agree on everything.

If you guys disagree behind the scenes that’s understandable. But make no mistake … you aren’t Masons. You are a single slot. Posting contradictory reads is scummy as all get out.

I very much like the Izak case you presented at

417

. It is vote-worthy for the glaring Cognitive Dissonance. I might move there from Silver after some further review.

--

Zinger townslipped. He's town.

Umm … no.

Pappums earns a Scum-read with this post alone due to [REDACTED]. The relative lack of engagement to the game and overall weak attempts at scum-hunting certainly augment this.

--

On the other hand MoI come back here and solve this clusterfuck.

Why are you buddying to me so blantantly Vezok. You must know I despise that.

--

3) MagnaofIllusion - 104 is good defense. I see MoI vs Rodion and Pappums as TvTvT. 144 seems really town. I like MoI's playstyle. Most town in my book.

Zang-tell detected. Will review Oversoul for more detail.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Was that meant to be an unvote on me? Just noticed the double-vote and thought I'd point it out.

Yeah it was ..

Stupid Tags

UNVOTE: DavidX
VOTE: Silverdrummer

in case it is necessary.

But your strong interest in just that element of my post means my scum-read on you stays solidly put.

[MagnaofIllusion]

In addition, I'm inclined to disagree slightly with your opinion that a Hydra posting conflicting scum-reads is inherently a scummy thing. As you say, disagreements could happen behind the scenes, but though they are one slot, they're surely better posting their own opinions too?

No, it's not. Because by posting conflicting reads in thread they are giving themselves an out for bad reads / results and to change their opinion about who is scum and who is Town whenever it suits them.

Go look at Macavitar in "Clash of Kings" Large Theme Mafia and Masterspy in "Return to Mordor" Mini Theme Mafia. Both hydras used that particular tactic to a tee in those games. And both were scum.

I'll elaborate on what the Zang-tell is if it becomes necessary. That was posted more for my needs than as something for people to run with.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Yes, he picked up his prod and replied saying he is still in.

Hmmm ... over 25 posts in many different games since he posted here.

And he's posted zero content yet affirmed that he is still in the game.

He needs Vigged / Copped / Some other solutioned N1.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I've noticed the majority of players on this website are overconfident and arrogant and rude. I much prefer the other website I play on. The playerbase here sucks.

Ah, yes. The playerbase here sucks because you’ve played a pretty terrible game. Do you like it there because people don’t tell you the truth about your play?

By the way, I've been lying to you all. I'm actually the town doctor.

Except I'm not, that was a lie. Or was it?

Your mom said hi.

Ok, so you are asking Town not to lynch you because you can be an asset (Jailkeeper) yet you then go all “Trolllolllolllolo” with this crap?

Like I said … if we don’t find a better candidate you can hang. Chalk it up to another learning experience of how NOT to play a role (much like Superhero Mafia was with the Vig).

--

1. Yes my slot did vote vifam... I never denied that.. it was my other head that did that post... he clearly signed it...

So you agree then that your slot is showing Hydra Dissonance? Thanks!

2. Pretty sure your ultimatum was "If you don't answer all my questions since page 5 and I'm not going to point out which they were.. i'm pushing for your lynch super hard misterr". This just comes across as a lame excuse to push a lynch on a player who might be lazy and not feel like putting in so much extra effort you demand of him. I'm not asking for Pine to come back... I want him dead or replaced, and even if he were to post I wouldn't give a damn. I still want him dead.

You need to look again because my Ultimatum was “Answer my questions at Post 170”. That’s hardly “since page 5”.

3. REPLACE OUTS ARE A NULL TELL.

I’ve deleted the rest of your All Caps since they are pointless. Your belief in what is and what isn’t a Null tell really doesn’t matter to me. You want to pointlessly debate Mafia theory? Go to MD and bring it up there.
Mafia is all about making subtle judgements based on many factors. Saying "ITS A NULL TELL" in each any every circumstance means you aren't doing it right.

4. I've stated this repeatidly now. I'm gonna follow your tactics.. Look back at my posts and you'll see why... if you don't see why when you next post i'm pushing your lynch!

You’ve stated repeatedly why Chevre wasn’t scummy? Point me that way because I looked at your ISO and see nada on that front. I ISOed Silverdrummer and did a Control F search for Chevre. I all got was the post where you said “Why is Chevre scummy when Pine is just as bad?”

And I like that you throw in some comedy with your posts. Good work!

--

That's not what I'm saying at all. You seemed to be insinuating that the "point" of the vezok wagon was to gauge reactions as players hopped on the wagon. I'm saying that can't be the real "point," because it would require all of you to be working together to accomplish that goal.

I championed a RVS wagon on Vezok to see who would jump on and who would avoid and how they did it. You think that’s not the real point? Feel free to believe what you want on that end.

--

Silverdrummer vs. Pine looks like Silver is scum tunneling his buddy Pine for towncred, we think.

-diddin

Hmmm … while not having a flip of Pine to use as a basis I could see this. Much like [REDACTED] in [REDACTED]. Then again him pushing that strongly on someone with zero content screams "Inside Information" so badly I can't see what they MIGHT think to gain from it.

Question – is your vote on Silver Pinky? I forget and am too lazy to find a VC.

[MagnaofIllusion]

You are arrogant, irritating,

rude

, and an all around ass.

Refusal to acknowledge the facts means you are either

an idiot

or scum. Probably the later.

I’ve bolded the portions that I find rather comical in back to back posts.

You whine like my 7 year old daughter about how rude I am and immediately turn around and call someone an idiot.

This is the last direct post you get from me Capt. Trollpants. For the rest of the game I’ll simply ignore your trolling and vote you when appropriate. Your 3rd Party self can simply wait to be shot at Night or lynched.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I'd like to suggest to all players that asking for others to be replaced isn't a good idea.

Mods have a hard time finding replacements when people ask for them. It's not very kosher to start removing players for behavior that individuals may not like as long as the don't violate site or game rules.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Not a lot of time now but I just want to say

More SilverDrummer votes please!!!

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Chevre

– Who is scum? By this point you should realistically have at least 3 to 4 possible candidates. Looking through your ISO I see many questions but little in the way of developed reads coming from those questions.

--

What of it? It's not some magical anti-lynch shield.

Day 1? Absolutely. Is stops being magical after that with more Day play and Night results to evaluate.

--

I'm here, just need to do a catch up over the next 12 hours.

Wow surprise surprise Easjo required a prod, responded with a non-content “I’ll catch up” post, and failed to deliver on said promise.

Why do people insist on creating more Vig targets than we have probable Vig shots?

--

We believe Zinger should be the lynch for today for several reasons.

Let’s rewind a bit Pappums.

What happened to “Zinger Townslipped”? Please point to the exact post where he did such slip that justified your original statement.

3. His roleclaim does not make sense. He claims that the person he JK's that is his target will be roleblocked for the rest of the game, when he is supposedly a jailkeeper.

This is terrible reasoning. Here’s what Zing-Troll claimed.

1. He’s a self aligned Jailkeeper.
2. He can jail any player only once.
3. He is looking for a specific player.
4. If he jails that player he leaves the game victorious and said player is permanently Role-blocked for the rest of the game.

Aside from all sorts of arguments about the viability of the role and flavor concerns the fact that you are playing ‘outguess the Mod’ here is not Pro-Town.

--

1. Uhhh... is it law that hydras are supposed to have one solid thought? This is news to me... not sure how this is helping at all.

I’m going to give you a scenario that should help you explain why it is a scumtastic thing.

We have Player A. Player A votes for Player Z in a non-RVS fashion Day 1. Later in Day 1 Player A, in response to a question, says “I didn’t see the reasons for the wagon on Player Z at all”. Is Player A scummy for taking directly conflicting stances on Player Z?

Because regardless of whether you are a hydra or not you are one player – Player A. You as a slot are judged by the same standards as any other slot. You don’t get special dispensation to post in a dissonant manner in thread just because you are a Hydra.

You have conflicts between the heads? Resolve them in QT.

2. That was still a page back or two and your missing the point....

No, I’m not missing the point. Your point isn’t valid.

3. You are either an arrogant idiot or you know exactly why he requested replacement which you wouldn't know unless you have inside knowledge. Everyone please note this as evidence of bussing or cheating or more than likely arrogance

I love that you don’t even concede the possibility that I correctly read the situation and am right.

4. Jesus Christ. It has nothing to do about chevre. It has everything to do with Pine. I blacklisted him, dislike him as a player and have said here that had I realized he was in this game I would have stayed the hell away

Ah the truth comes out. Guess what … I don’t give a rats ass if you don’t like Pine or not. Your little personal vendetta is quaint but stupid.

You can either replace out now or continue to try to get him lynched. Do so with your grudge as justification and you’ll probably eat rope sooner than later.

A zinger lynch is stupid...

he's not scum, least not yet

and we can take care of him later if need be.

Explain the bolded because in context of ZingTroll’s claim it makes absolutely no sense.

bussing ala he's a scum partner bussing his scummate

Um weren’t you the head that has been championing Vifam / Junpei’s slot as Town the whole time? How the hell can you possibly believe this theory if you think that slot is Town?

--

Also re: MoI's view on the replacement issue, it's consistent with what I've seen MoI say before. He even linked games in which he used this tell as town, so like... Yeah.

So you actually went and read up on Umbrage’s “Jungle Republic” and LMP’s “KGB Mafia”? Usually people don’t follow through when I give supporting games.

[qutoe="Zel1nk"]^2 scum there.[/quote]

Explain your methodology and thought process that went into this. Is in more complicated than “Hey, I’m picking out slots 6 – 9 on the wagon”?

All of the reasoning for the Zinger lynch gets demolished by one simple fact: Zinger is a dumbass. He is so much more likely to do this as town than as any other alignment.

Did I just see a “Too Dumb for Scum” argument?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Ok ... more food for thought ...

I've been Neighborized by two seperate players today. Both have claimed the same mechanics behind how they Neighborize.

I've come to the conclusion that it is unlikely as heck that both are Town. One may be Third Party. One may be Scum. Both might be Scum.

Discuss the ramifications ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

Ok, do you think one is more likely to be non-town than the other? (Why?)

Yes, based on QT posting and other factors I’m leaning towards one being much more likely than the other.

Hey, while we are talking – I notice you popped up to discuss this but have yet to address the attack made by PaTB regarding your Cognitive Dissonance. Why don’t you do that? I’ll help motivate you!

VOTE: Silverdrummer
VOTE: Izak

--

Wait is this a serious thing or are you trying to make a point.

If you knew me at all you know I despise “Lulz, gambit claimz” and don’t fuck around with stuff like this.

Why was your first reaction to ask if I was serious?

--

No. I played in one of them.

Which one? Yeah, it is relevant.

Based on...?

Relevant game and QT postings by both players and a gut reaction based on the EXACT claimed duplication of claimed roles.

[MagnaofIllusion]

MoI, sorry to point it out again, but you did it again. You used the Vote tag instead of Unvote.. thought I should point it out.

And also, are you willing to tell us the names of the people who've neighbourized you? I'm inclined to agree that both aren't likely to be town, so by having the two names we can analyse who's more likely to be non-town..

1. Goddamn it...

UNVOTE: Silverdrummer
VOTE: Izak

2. Not at this stage. On the off chance that one of them isn't Mafia scum (aka Third Party or the unlikely possibility both are Town) then I'm not directly handing over either identity.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Can someone give me a quick overview of what a Neighbourizer is by the way? I can take a rough guess, but I don't see it on the wiki..

A Neighborizor is a player who can recruit other players into a Neighborhood. When this happens and the limits to the number of Neighbors usually vary by set-up.

As always Neighbors are not Mod confirmed on alignment.

[MagnaofIllusion]

At this point I’m satisfied with lynching either Izak, Silver or DavidX as directly scummy and will support whichever of those wagons is strongest.

--

Moreover, I don't think it's plausible that a town JK (who should want to remain unseen) would decide to draw attention to themselves in that way. From scum's perspective, he would still be a non-their faction JK.

Please provide my any circumstances (Town / Scum / 3rd Party) where it is plausible for someone to make claims as Zinger has? You immediately ruling out Town when I can’t see a single scenario that is net gain for Zinger’s alignment to act as he has troubles me. It's a stupid move regardless of what alignment he is.

--

I'm not going to unvote Zinger yet because as a player, he's openly lied to town, and in doing so, assuming he is telling the truth (which I still have doubts on)has revealed a Town power role with little to no reason.

So the best solution you can come up with as punishment for early revealing a Town Powerrole (if he is Town) is to lynch that player?

That’s scumtastic reasoning David.

--

O302

Mwhahaha … now I can use PoE to figure out one of your heads …

Actually it was pretty important based on your response to the first question. Thanks.

--

I totally agree with Pinky above; whatever Zinger's alignment, we could really do without him around. The fact that he has

lied at least twice, insulted the whole forum, and admitted that he is not taking this seriously means he is, without a doubt, the best lynch today

.

Pop quiz – why would scum have specifically done the bolded things above? If you can’t provide a solid reason then you aren’t pointing out scum-tells.

I was quite obviously joking when talking about Jesters, while Junpei was not. The way I see it the two are (quite obviously) completely separate.

What was the gain to Town for your ‘joking’ about ‘Jason sticking a Jester’ in the game? You signed up in the original thread so you should have know they were NOT in the set-up. You made the comment well out of RVS. Explain …

--

In this post he suggested this post might have been the result of prodding from a scumbuddy, implying that the scum have daytalk. We believe that this is a mistake commonly made by newbie TOWN who haven't been scum, but not by newbie scum who would know that scum don't have daytalk. Jason's previous games have not had daytalk. This was before his claims and before his meltdown.

Why do you assume that this game MUST not have Daytalk based on prior games? My first Mini Theme did not have daytalking scum but my second one did. It is part of the balancing process, IMO.

--

May I ask why you felt the need to say this day 1, since you're obviously serious?

Because being day Neighborized twice in the first Day of the game warrants that information being disclosed to Town. I’m already arranging safety valves about the identities of the Neighborizors in case I die.

That quote is wrong, his claim is not of the same nature as mine, I've already said that before.

Saying it repeatedly doesn’t make you correct.

Zinger has basically said he was a badly gambiting Town PR at this stage. He may be lying. He may be telling the truth. Just like your predecessor he shouldn’t be lynched TODAY just on that fact.

3) Rodion, does claiming JK, a ROLEBLOCKER, make any sense as town?

As LLD is fond of saying -

… twitch …

--

well after recent posts... what you should be doing according to volkan is seing if he does replace when pressured and is scum in other games. Find a game or two where he does that and you win my heart for the day. I personally still think it's null and sheer luck if your right (or inside info).

If I did want to do that I’d again bring up Umbrage’s Jungle Republic where your other head did there what it is doing exactly here …. disappearing under suspicion while actively posting around site. Oh look, there is CJ now.

I voted for Vifam because they were a viable lynch target at the time - this was while silverbullet was away. When he got back, he unvoted Vifam and voted Pine without any consultation.

As such, I cannot speak for my vote on Pine, which is why I haven't been posting - because the majority of the heat on me is because of the Pine vote.

So I'm leaving silverbullet to reap what he's sown. I'm sorry if that doesn't sit with you, or whatever, but I think that I shouldn't have to be part of silverbullet's argument if he didn't originally check with me on the vote, or anything.

1. So you voted Vifam as ‘a viable lynch’, not for being scummy?
2. You are ‘leaving’ Silver to fend for himself? Despite the fact that you are the same damn slot?

Kill it with fire!!!!

UNVOTE: Izak
VOTE: Silver

--

I don't like this at all.

Vote: david Xanatos

Meran earns Town cred for this post. Because he’s not liking what is probably an example of “role-fishing by proxy”.

You also get Town points for

774

. That’s effort. Perhaps misguided effort, but effort non-the–less. And in a game this size effort early on is a positive thing.

Multiscum game. I rest my case.

Pop quiz – how do you have any idea this game ISN’T multiscum?????

[MagnaofIllusion]

@MoI- Just so you know, your claim of having been neighborized twice can also be read to say "I can talk to 2 other people outside the thread." And that you were selected by 2 independent processes that have a single convergence point of you. Any ideas why that might be, because I find it frankly astonishing.

Also, what do you think the chances are that both are town?

1. Because I'm awesome!!! Really, look I have a boss title and little banner thing and everything?

Actually one of the first questions to each Neighborizor was just that - "Why me". Both reasons seemed plausible enough.

2. I think the chances that both are Town is VERY, VERY limited. Thus why I specifically outed the information before my expected, standard N1 demise.

[MagnaofIllusion]

We still prefer a Zinger lynch at this point though. His retraction of his third party claim makes it more likely that he is scum. Retracting such a claim is a survival -minded move. He should never have claimed third party as town, whilst it makes some sense for a third party player who is survival oriented to say WHATEVER THE HELL IT TAKES to stay alive, and we *might* see him doing a third party claim as scum, hoping to buy time. We don't think the 'permanently roleblocked' thing is the sort of thing a town gambiter would come up with off the top of his head. The most likely thing is he is actually third party, with an outside chance of being scum. Also, if the town is NOT going to lynch him, then it needs to commit to NEVER lynching him (barring investigation) and hoping for a vigging. This is important - any later day, we will have more info than today, so lynching Zinger will have a higher opportunity cost.

Hey, weren’t you the slot banging on me for pressuring Vifam as it was violating your “Newbie escalator” theory earlier? Yeah, you totally were.

Yet you are hammering Zinger (who should obv qualify for said Newb status IMO) for flailing around just like your theory explicitily states Newb Town would do. If you were being consistent about your ‘theory’ you should recognize that. But nope … you don’t and instead push using nice flowery language like “opportunity cost”

Hey look, Cognitive Dissonance from Pappums. Have this bright, shiny

FOS – Pappums

I don’t give those out usually. You should be honored to receive one. It’s a mark of my respect for the Leather Jacket half of your Hydra.

--

you see, at L1 people claim.
if we are not lynching people who claim a pr, then who are we gonna lynch
scum can claim pr as well you know

And then said fake-claiming player would be locked into making a believable claim, subject to potential testing via Cops / Trackers / Watchers / etc or counter-claims. Day 1 is not the Day to lynch a claimed Town PR.

--

My point is that the role he claimed first up was an anti-town role. He gets pressured and, after a number of contortions, claims town JK, under the pretext of a gambit. If he'd claimed mafia or SK and then backflipped with a "lol, sorry - gambit", he'd have been lynched five pages ago. Every action he is taken since his initial claim is referable to a survival motive. Thus, we have an anti-town motivation and the absence of any town motivation.

Survival mode isn’t more likely to come from only scum. Sorry, a Town PR is just as likely to enter survival mode after a grandly stupid move because lynching them is very damaging to Town. You’ve been around to have seen this and that you still are pushing it as a scum-tell based on your own personal standard troubles me.

What do you think of Pappum’s “Newbie Escalator” theory?

--

That was in relation to the vifam slot... why make the switch all of a sudden.

Um, whut? Junpei’s Tracker claim makes my suspicions null and void for the moment. I’ve clearly explained that. How you are trying to say that I ‘all of the sudden’ did that I don’t quite understand.

--

@pop quiz: I don't. Night will tell me. Night has not come

See, than I don’t see the point of you prematurely assessing whether it is a Town role or not given you are saying yourself you will have to wait for Night to be somewhat sure …


--

And I note that MoI still hasn't responded to my reply, and now ThAdmiral is using his post to justify a vote on me.. once again, skimming or an actual attempt at misrepresentation

Hey look … an assertion that I’m dodging responding when I had not personally posted since his first response (which by the way is terrible, see below).

Scumtastic move David.

MoI, I'm not sure if you're just skimming or if you're actively trying to misrepresent me, but you'll note that TWO POSTS after I posted that, I also posted, this,

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p3265912

And the first words of that post.. "Hit post too early, meant to hit Preview so I could get onto the more detailed posting screen.."

Hell, two posts after THAT I even expanded on it further.

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p3266033

So please, stop trying to make out as though my sole reasoning was "lulz revealed role".

I read posts chronologically when I am doing my responses.

Either you screwed up your linking or I am not seeing what your point is.

At ISO 43 (post 694) you ask the question that both Meran found scummy.

Two of your own posts later is ISO 45 (post 697) where you said the following –

Can someone give me a quick overview of what a Neighbourizer is by the way? I can take a rough guess, but I don't see it on the wiki..

No mention of the phrase “hit post too early” in that entire post.

Two posts after that is ISO 47 (post 47) where you say the following …

What flavour/mechanics did they give you for it? Even if you don't name them, the differences might hint towards the non-town, assuming they aren't both Town..

All I see in that post is you expanding on reasons it would be good for me to out one of my contacts in thread.

Your first link goes to post 744 which is well after the post that Meran specifically said he found suspicous (694). The second one reflects on post 746. Could you try to explain how those are relevant to my and Meran’s observations that you were role-fishing in 694?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Mod – I’ll be V/LA from today at 4pm EST until Monday for my usual family weekend duties. And Saturday is a guaranteed bust because we are going to a Baseball game.

Mod: Confirmed, enjoy your V/LA

--

You quoted post 742 in post 803, completely ignoring the fact I admitted in post 744 that I had hit "submit" instead of "preview". Post 744 and, by extension, 746, were direct responses to Zel1nk. How exactly you can quote post 742 in relation to post 694 is beyond me, given that in 741, Zel1nk says, and I quote, "If you're going to vote for Zinger, tell me which part of this line of thinking you disagree with and why." That is what 742 and 744 were in regards to. 746 was in regards to Zel1nk's response, post 745.

Great. Way to not answer the question at hand with a large swath of numbers.

Here’s the relevant facts –

At post

694

you posted the following –

And also, are you willing to tell us the names of the people who've neighbourized you? I'm inclined to agree that both aren't likely to be town, so by having the two names we can analyse who's more likely to be non-town..

This is role-fishing, IMO, in trying to narrow down the pool of suspects for other Power roles.

At

709

Meransiel correctly identifies it as suspect posting with this …

I don't like this at all.

Vote: david Xanatos

At

803

I specifically agree with Meran with the following …

Meran earns Town cred for this post. Because he’s not liking what is probably an example of “role-fishing by proxy”.

That’s the issue at hand. Your trying to link it to a number of other posts is irrevant to the discussion and scummy, IMO.

In addition, my first response was at 7:45PM on Thursday, you posted twice in another topic at 2:01am and 4:09am, in addition to 4 further posts elsewhere over the course of the afternoon. If that's you "not personally posting", I suggest you contact Mith about your account being compromised.

Your post

813

where you give the irrelevant links was made Thursday, July 21 at 2:45pm EST.

Your post where you charge me with ‘avoiding’ a response is

846

, made on Friday July 22 at 6:56 am EST.

During that time I have EXACTLY two posts on MS.

One at Thusday July 21 at 9:01pm EST in a sign-up thread.
One at Thursday July 21 at 11:09 pm EST in the same sign-up thread.

Both of which was made via my Android phone. None of which were made in actual game threads.

Any reason you specifically fabricated the 2 game posts and 2 mystery posts above? Because time-stamps prove that you are making that up.

And in addition, looking through both your and Meran's ISOs, at no point did you ask me to defend or expand upon my questions in 694.

Your point? I’m not required to request explanations for scummy posts if I’m to call them scummy.

Before I forget –

UNVOTE: Silver
VOTE: DavidX

[MagnaofIllusion]

I'll break it down for you. And I'll try to avoid words bigger than about eight letters.

I love the attempt to be all insulting. You are very impressive with your insulting rhetoric. It’s rather pointless on your part, but feel free to keep it up if it makes you feel superior. Especially if you are going to flip scum!

YOU quoted my post number 742 in your post 803.

I see … so you are saying you were not responding to me calling you (correctly, I’m guessing) scummy re Meransil. Ok. Let’s review 742.

I'm not going to unvote Zinger yet because as a player, he's openly lied to town, and in doing so, assuming he is telling the truth (which I still have doubts on), has revealed a Town power role with little to no reason.

And now let me look at the post that ‘clears’ you of making no sense at 744 …

Hit post too early, meant to hit Preview so I could get onto the more detailed posting screen..

His play in general has been based entirely around deception until this point, no matter what his alignment turns out to be.. I'm inclined to cite "The Boy who cried Wolf" to be honest.. he claims neutral JK, then Town Doc, then Neutral JK again, and now Town JK.. at this point, frankly I don't see why we should believe the claim anymore..

In addition, even before he claimed "self" he even responded to an inquiry as to why he was holding his opinions back with "And if I'm not Town?"

I won't even touch on the "elitist" tirade, as I've not been around long enough to have any serious views on it, but it's a rather glaring red rag to a bull.. so to speak.. insulting an entire community isn't exactly going to help the game.

Ok. What’s your point? It isn’t good Town play to lynch a claimed Town PR, regardless of how stupid and badly he got to that claim, Day 1. It just isn’t. Especially since in context he hasn’t been counter-claimed by anyone saying “Hey, I’m a Town Roleblocker / JK”.

Any attempt to justify doing so is either stupid Town play or scum play.

. Might I ask where you are accusing me of "fabricating" posts? Because I count six. Once again, two between my initial post and my own follow up, and four more times before you finally responded.

Oh, so you agree that I posted only twice between your initial response and when you said “MoI hasn’t responded”. Those would be the phone posts in the Queue thread.

Four more times before I responded here? How many of them were in THIS game?

None.

I have multiple games I am playing. The order I post in them is based on any number of factors. That you are trying to say that somehow posting in OTHER games is avoiding the response is scumtastic.

My vote is nicely put where it is.

To quote what I feel is appropriate …

DIE SCUM DIE!!!!!!

[MagnaofIllusion]

Silverdrummer has more momentum than DavidX at this juncture. I'd like to see a resolution to the Day soon.

UNVOTE: David
VOTE: Silver[

--

You're implying that the zinger case is an example of Newbie Escalator theory?

Actually I wanted your opinion on the theory as a whole (which you gave).

--

Magna - You seem to imply that there are better solutions for "punishment for early revealing a Town Powerrole", and that David's paticular solution is scummy. Am I interpreting this correctly?

Yes, it is scummy to directly conclude that the best solution to the problem of an early revealed Town PR is to lynch them.

David is right that MoI posted elsewhere, but MoI is right that it's not scummy in the faintest.

No, he isn’t right. He claimed I posted 6 times elsewhere between those two posts. As I demonstrated I only posted twice. It can’t be any more clear cut than that.

--

Are you seriously suggesting that we should be expecting someone to claim Scum when pressured to claim?

Here's a little thought for you sparky, everyone put under pressure D1 is going to claim a PR.

Of course I’m not expecting that. Don’t try to put words in my mouth in an effort to discredit my position. That’s scummy.

Day 1 it is a detriment to lynch a claimed Town powerrole. Period.

And as I have stated – even if they are fake-claiming scum they’ve locked themselves into a claim that can be proven fake in any number of ways including investigations and direct counter-claims. You seem to want to gloss over this fact.

MoI > Why did you tell us about the two neighbourisers if you had no intention of giving us any details? All non-Town factions now have more information thanks to you, while Town is unable to do anything with the same information.

You seem to forget that information can be shared INSIDE the Neighborhood. Both Neighborizors know the identitiy of the other, as will anyone they chose to Neighborize in the future. This means that when I die there is little chance the information that could benefit Town is lost. If I die others will be able to cooberate this fact. If the scum attempt to take out a Town Neighborizor they run the risk of losing their role or being discovered via the existence of a leak.

The specifics of the mechanics aren’t helpful in any way at all to possibly outguess the mod and find scum. The methods and limits to their abilities are EXACTLY the same (at least from the information I have gotten). No possible upside to divulging them currently.

MoI > Leant Town on him to begin with, but his persistent tunneling and misquoting of my posts, and attempting to twist the context of said posts has dragged me back to neutral on him. Loathe to go into further detail while I await further response, but he's V/LA, so that's on the back-burner for now.

So this I don’t get. If I was being as actively scummy as you claim why you don’t ACTUALLY have a scum read on me is baffling.

In addition, how exactly can you "scumhunt" in RVS? The very definition of RVS is poking people to see the responses.. as you've seen with my exchanges RE: MoI,

when I get personally involved in something, I tend to focus on it rather heavily..

therefore, my sitting back and observing is my way of trying to catch things that I would otherwise miss.

In regards to the bolded – you knock me in the above quote for ‘tunneling’ but are using that exact behavior as a Town tell in your case. Please resolve this dichotomy please.

--

2) There could be two of the same role, assuming everyone will get CCd if scum is silly.

And it’s likewise completely silly to assume scum are NEVER caught by a counterclaim …

--

These two examples are very different, so comparing them is stretching it a bit. I dont think we have ever played a game with Vifam before, but the pappums head of this hydra did play a game with Zinger (Super Hero Mafia) where Zinger did some pretty decent scumhunting and basically kept his head on straight until people criticised him for being such a terrible vig.

Zinger is a relative newcomer to MS and your attempts to downplay that are noted.

Anyone who has read SuperHero Mafia that wanted to realistically argue that Zinger did a ‘Good Job’ scum hunting when he never shot Scum and constantly butted heads with / ignored me (who did catch scum aplenty) is either likely scum or stupid.

And I know pappums isn’t stupid.

--

I don't remember you clearing junpei null and void for the moment...

Um, if I understand this correct you are saying you don’t remember me saying I don’t want to lynch Junpei based on the claim. Is that correct? If so please go read post 308.

Just cause pine is replacing out doesn't mean his actions aren't suspicious worthy. He didn't post for whatever reason while posting in other games.

So just to be clear – it is scummy to not post in a game while posting elsewhere?

--

There's nothing fabricated here. Timestamps prove you live in different timezones. See how the minutes are identical? And how one post happened 2 hours and 8 minutes after the other both according to DavidX and you?

Yes, you are missing the point. He intimated I made game related posts between the time of his initial post and saying “MoI never responded”. I did not. I made 2 posts in that time frame, as detailed, and he spun it somehow into 6 posts. That’s the inherent fabrication.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Hey Zel1nk -

Care to provide a few more scum reads than just Izak?

Because you are doing a bang-up job telling us who isn't scum but in a Large Theme you probably should have more suspects than just Mr. Goomba.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Urgh, Pine timed out again for 3rd time, not 2nd, sorry. However with so many needing replacements I am very hesitant to force replace him

MOD – It is of my opinion that you need to replace him. This isn’t the only game he’s picked up prods and failed to post in multiple times (to his faction’s detriment in at least one game).

--

Stop trying to twist the same "reasoning" to further "implicate" my other head. It's somewhat scummy to not post in a game while posting elsewhere to a degree. It's incredibly scummy to respond to prods, make posts promising to catchup while doing no such thing and all the while still posting in other games

It’s not twisting your reasoning. You are trying to split hairs on what ‘level’ of inactivity in this game while being active elsewhere is scummy.

For the record this isn’t the only game Pine is “active flaking” from. So this game isn’t the sort of isolated incident that would indicate it is a Scum-tell unless he is scum in every game where it is happening.

--

Relative newcomer, yes, but he has at the very least finished a large theme game here. IDK WTF Vifam's level of play has been here.

I never said Zinger did a "good job" of scumhunting, I said "he did some pretty decent scumhunting". By this I meant he was actively scumhunting and contributing to the game, not that he was "raping da scumz".

Butting heads with you and ignoring you does not mean he wasnt scumhunting in that game.

You are splitting hairs as to what consititues a ‘Newbie’ in a way that makes me very suspicious of your defense of Vifam / Junpei.

Please provide me with post numbers that showed Zinger doing “decent scum-hunting” in Superhero Mafia. I don’t recall anything but some OMGUS accusations Day 1 and a string of mostly bad / unacceptable Vig shots.

Could everyone please tell me in what order they rank the following possibilities:

Sure, I’ll rank them if you can tell me what good this little exercise is to scum-hunting. You don’t even bother to ask for a weighting of those options.

And please justify why, under minimal pressure, you think Scum would ACTIVELY claim Third Party as Zinger did. I’d really like to hear the logic that places 2 as a viable option.

--

- He soft-claimed vanilla on the last page. And it was a genuine softclaim, not an I'm-scum-gambiting-so-maybe-people-will-think-I'm-town softclaim

Um, no.

He’s using the “I’ll go concessionary and hope people say “Scum never do that” to get me off the lynch” route. That I've seen used by scum before. Could he be doing it as Town? Certainly possible. Thus it’s Null and doesn’t absolve him of the rest of his play.

--

@Everyone voting me: will you pledge to eat your hat when I flip town? Kthxbai.

Why should they? Your play has been scumtastic. The only reason I’ve not driven your wagon to completion is you’ve ‘retracted’ your gambit and claimed a Town PowerRole.

--

So Jailkeeper is more important than tracker or cop?

This is a scummy mis-rep at

1139

. Nowhere in the quote of Zinger’s post does he come even close to saying Jailkeepers are more important thank information roles.

--

[MagnaofIllusion]

Could you do the same, only from a town perspective?

Not inclined to since you are one of my lurker scum reads. Feel free to chime in with a logical and viable scum motivation if you want.

[MagnaofIllusion]

No. You have to back up your reasoning, not only reply to your town reads. Thats awfully close-minded play, MoI. Not sure if i like it, or see town motives

The scum motive: really to avoid getting lynched, and at the moment, its working for him.

No, I don't have to do anything. Your slot has basically power-lurked through the game and only posted anything close to reads when prodded angrily with a stick. You don't get to be indignent when I don't hop to your requests when you aren't a Town read. Town working with other Town reads is how things get done.

That's not a valid scum motive - He posted his third party claim BEFORE coming under significant fire. That claim itself is what touched of the conflagartion in thread that put him up as a viable lynch. You can't say his motive for claiming 3rd Party as he did (as scum) was to survive when just not claiming anything would have been infinitely a better move.

Care to take another stab?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Ok, I missed his serious claim. I only saw his lol jk ones. I really don't like this guy, but is it possible he's a jester?

No. Jesters are explicitly banned from this set-up via the Mod.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Rainbowdash

– So whose Alt are you? I know you created this account just for [REDACTED].

--

I’m very disappointed that scum-Silver is getting off today. Very disappointed.

Can you post, another game where a similar situation is currently happening. I believe you but I just want solid evidence to make me feel better. If this is the case I drop Pine from my list.

I can’t because, you know, that’s directly against site rules Re: Discussing Ongoing games. I’ve toed the line by being as obtuse as I have. I’m not crossing it.

I see you solved this on your own.

--

Regardless, I know that the flavour is a summary of the character, but as I said, by luck or planning, there could be a role like "Chief Wiggum - Town Cop", or "Groundskeeper Wullie - Town Gravedigger". It wouldn't be wise to blinker ourselves to it, 'lest we go after someone who would have been incredibly useful.

Go read Superhero Mafia. Power-roles were purposefully randomly selected. The same is likely here based on the nature of the game and other information at my disposal.

Then stop outguessing the Mod if you somehow are Town.

--

Yes it is. Its a scum-gambit, i've seen it done before. Never have i seen town do this, so i want to know the town motvation for it.

You’ve openly claimed 3rd Party as Scum under little pressure Day 1 when any Non-Town claim means likely death to survive.

So you are a VI? Gotcha.

--

Not a misrep. He says that he did what he did so that he, the jailer, wouldn't be the target of night kills. What this would do is increase the odds that a nightkill hits on an information role, thus he must believe that the odds of his safety are more important than the odds of our however many informative roles' safety. Not to mention if he could have just made himself not a scumtarget instead of screwing over town this way (if he's town).

It is absolutely a mis-rep. It is a scummy and farcical argument to try to call say that his possible DERP-gambit creates significantly greater danger for Town information roles (unless they were scummy enough to have to out themselves as your slot did).

Let’s run some numbers to show you why that’s the case ….

The game starts with 27 players. Let’s say for the sake of argument that we have 1 scum team of 7 members (reasonable number and maximizes the possibility of damage you assert having a single strong Scum team as opposed to Mutli-scum).

So there are 20 non-Mafia players. In that 20 non-Mafia players let’s say for the sake of argument we have 2 Information roles. Absent Zinger’s DERP-gambit scum has a 2/20 random chance of hitting one of those roles (10%).

Zinger makes his claim and theoretically makes himself a non-target for the scum who only Information role hunt and don’t have any other motivets (which is also an absurd premise). This means that they have a 2/19 chance of hitting and Information role, or a 10.5% chance. So the effect of Zinger’s DERP-gambit (if he is Town, of course) is increasing the random chance of scum hitting town by 5%.

Hardly the smoking gun your mis-rep seeks to portray.

Asking someone who has no respect for you to do something fully for the sake of your preference is idiotic because all it will do is cause that person to not do it in spite of you.

Ok good so you can be JunkPie for the rest of my life in the game.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Yes I know that it barely hurts info roles possibility of death, even if there are more than 2 info roles, but the thing is that he is basically saying that JK is more important than those, which I disagree with. By that logic I could see doctor doing this maybe, but JK? We don't want JK on information roles because they won't get information. I'd gladly have JK take the hit than plain doctor roles, info roles, mason roles, or pretty much any other town non-VT. I don't see how you wouldn't.

No, he didn't say that. You keep throwing that out there. Point me to where Zinger said "My role is more important than Information roles". Unless you can then that's you just putting spin on your perception.

If he is Town is was a phenominally stupid move. That's clear.

So now you are moving the goalposts. Now it isn't the fact that it increases the chances of Information role death but that it isn't an optimal play. When you decide where you want your argument to land let me know so I can assess whether you are continuing to mis-rep or portray things in an incorrect light.

And to what you said @HipAdd, I could see third party/scum do this as a poor gambit, we don't know the scum PR roles, we don't quite understand their planning process yet so we can't assume that they wouldn't do that. We can however know that from a town standpoint where you do things to help the rest of town catch scum (a communist mindset) that it makes no sense and is counter-productive.

So it would even be a poor gambit as 3rd Party / Scum? Then why is it a scum tell if regardless of the alignment of said gambitter it is a dumb move? Explain that to me.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Should be on record that I strongly dislike this way of doing things: seems to me that if the rolenames are completely irrelevant to the roles, then there's no actual point having them.

Ok, I'll be on record with two things.

1. That this post really is a good guide when Pappums / Fonz is the Mod but is meaningless to the discussion here. Buiilding a Theme game that isn't "Outguessable" based on linking PowerRoles to flavor is just as valid as strongly linking flavor.
2. That this post is another example of Non-scumhunting that pervades your ISO and further strenghtens my "PLJ" is scum read.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I think you need to read my post, nice try smartass.

I read your post. I asked you to provide a logical scum-motivation for his play. What you gave was some vague, unsubstantiated statement about how you did it also. I'm still waiting for solid scum-motivated play that isn't DERPtastic. Because unfortunately DERPtastic play comes from all alignments. Based on the individual player's level of DERPness.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Holy Strawman, Batman. Ignoring the game-relevant body of the post, commenting only on the concluding aside, then coming to the conclusion that there's no scumhunting going on? THAT'S WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU CUT THE RELEVANT PART (that you were misstating David's position) out of the quote.

Actually his position is meaningless in the context of the likely set-up. It's not a scum-tell of course but doesn't do Town ANY GOOD AT ALL to say "Hey, maybe something likely randomly generated lined up nicely to flavor". It might have. But discussing it at this point is just fluffing.

Which was the whole point of my response. Thanks for not getting it.

You reaction here ... to scream "Straw-Man" when I point out yet another post of yours that lacks scum-hunting and is fluff-tastic is telling.

I've reviewed your ISO.

It's pretty much described as follows -

1. Defend Vifam with "Newbie Escalator" (or whatever the name is) theory argument.
2. Take a soft swipe at Chevre as a lurker.
3. Latch on Zinger and never budge.
4. Make lots and lots of "Game Theory" posts that don't contribute a hoot to scum-hunting.

If you wish to assert I'm wrong feel free and we can discuss.

[MagnaofIllusion]

and i asked you for logical town-motivation for his play. What you gave was a snarky reply.

I said i've seen it, where the fuck did you get that i have done that?

I didn't bother to respond because frankly I'm not going to. If you can't think up a viable, realistic scum motivation to make a play then it is AT WORST a Null tell. I didn't even bother asking you in the first place. I'll have to remember who it was I asked originally.

Oh that's right it was Pappums ...

hey Pappums care to respond

?

Ok ... where have you SEEN a Mafioso under minimal pressure Day 1 unbidden claim 3rd Party as a survival mechanism. Link me. Because that's the dumbest survival technique I have ever seen and you trying to pass it off as a valid scum motivation means you either aren't thinking it through or are scum faking scum-hunting.

[MagnaofIllusion]

MOD – I’ll be V/LA from 4pm EST today until Monday morning for my usual weekend family duties.

Mod: Confirmed

--

Also he had the ZeL1nK threat hanging over his head from very early on in the game, which apparently caused some pressure on its own.

You do understand that this is a pretty absurd statement since if Zinger is a Jailkeeper he could just as easily Jail Zel1nk to ‘remove’ said threat and pressure, right?

--

Also increasing the chances of information roles' death isn't optimal play at this point.

Wait, I thought you had back-tracked and conceded that this isn’t a valid point.

--

pretty sure it was 3isfrench aka me

No, the initial request was to Pappums in questioning why his request to show Town-3rdParty-Scum in order regarding Zinger was anything other than busywork.

--

Part of saying that all third party claims should be lynched is that it stops ponies from eventually faking third party roles because they think it's clever or something along those lines.

Oh, so your stance is some variation on a Policy lynch stance since you don’t support gambit claiming.

--

Are you saying there are 2 neighbourizors in the same neighbourhood, not 2 distinct neighbourhoods?

No. There are two Separate and distinct players who during the day today have recruited me into separate Neighborhoods. The mechanics by which they claim to Neighborize are identical, at least as far as they have shared so far.

--

1. Why it is possible that Zinger's claim is a scum gambit.

Firstly, your assertion that he was not under pressure is false. He had four votes, was tied for the lead, and two of those votes had accrued pretty quickly when

he first hinted he might not be town.

No, that’s absurd. 4 votes when 14 are required to lynch is hardly significant pressure. In a game this size you can fall into 4 votes via RVS quick as a blink. Being tied means that at least one other person was under the same ‘level’ ( I use the term loosely) pressure so that hardly causes a rational player to panic.

In context 4 votes is less than 1/3 of the votes required to vote today. Put into context of a 13 player game …. it would be the equivalent of making his claim with 2 votes Day 1. Hardly pressure at all.

The bolded actually further undermines your argument. You state he got half of those 4 mighty votes for hinting he wasn’ Town. Thus outright claiming 3rd Party isn’t a good survival tactic for scum to use if hinting you were not Town earns you votes.

Question

– why would scum even hint they were not Town, as you report, in the first place?

Secondly, the benefits to scum of pulling such a gambit are fairly obvious. If his third party claim is believed and he is not lynched, he gets away with going through the game not saying anything relevant. That is an obvious boon to scum. In addition, he probably protects himself from any potential rival scumgroups or SKs that might be floating around.

You are arguing that it’s beneficial to scum to pull a gambit Day 1 that resulted in a massive wagon because on the off-chance it works they may be able to slide by through the game. That’s absurd logic. The risks in that scenario outweight the rewards greatly when

JUST NOT CLAIMING 3RD PARTY

in a Large game means he was much more likely to skate by for days even if he active lurks.

Not putting yourself on the radar as any sort of Target so trumps actively making yourself a Lynch and possible SK / Other Mafia target (since the SK or Other Mafia, if they exist, can’t know that they aren’t the subject of Claimed 3rd party JK’s search).

Thirdly, we believe it is not necessarily the case that he knew his third party claim would bring him heat. On Xylbot, survivors tend to claim first post and are usually ignored from there. Without greater familiarity with EpicMafia, it's hard to say if it's the same, but it certainly could be. Either way, if he knew that third party claimants usually get lynched, he likely doesn't claim third party as any alignment, that would just be ridiculously stupid.

So you are using conjecture about Xylbot and EpicMafia (neither of which Zinger has indicated he has ANY exposure to) as support for your argument. No, that doesn’t fly.

Fourthly, the 'Claim Doc' part of his string of claims doesn't make sense from the 'avoiding NK' perspective, and is dangerous for town (possibility of counterclaim outing real doc) whilst useful for scum (same reason) and is not much more likely to keep you alive than merely a town JK claim.

First off my reading of the ‘Doc’ claim was a frustrated joke by Zinger. When it was made his ‘gambit’ had blown up in his face and he was being sarcastic, IMO.

Second that you didn’t bother to worry about a counterclaim from a Town blocking role (RB / JK) but only worried about a Doc counterclaim rings false.

Fifthly, the Pappums head of this hydra has played with Zinger as a town power role before, and in that game, as we said previously, appeared to put a good amount of effort into his scumhunting. That he isn't doing that here could speak to a difference in motive. Pappums head strongly feels you twisted his words by interpreting 'decent scumhunting' as being excellent or incisive as opposed to sincere or noticeable. Fonz head thinks your interpretation was a reasonable misunderstanding, but the fact remains that is not what we meant. Believe us or not, really. Still, we don't think you've really engaged with the point that we wouldn't expect a player who's shown himself to be sober and competent as a town PR in another game to act like a massive derp as town PR in this game.

I went to Superhero Mafia (and I find it frightening that the entire game was only 57 pages long) and the Neighborhood QT we were in together to pull quotes from Pappums about Zinger that game. Here is everything I found –

Second, Zinger is entirely wrong about not being told you are roleblocked, no one ever gets told they are roleblocked on this site (AFAIK). He has said nothing about what action he may have taken that, in it's absence, would let him know if he was roleblocked, and until he does it says nothing about diddin.

..

I agree with Reck that the diddin wagon is bad, Zinger, Meransiel, and dana all have bad reasons for being on this wagon.

Hmmm. Bad reasons for being on a wagon is decent scum-hunting?

Bad reasoning for being on the diddin wagon. People do not get told if they are roleblocked.

This is a response to Zinger’s original diddin vote and outlines his reasoning.

Ah, I see now. I had misread this post originally. So it looks like diddin is almost-confirmed scum after all, unless Zinger is lying. There would not really be any reason for Zinger to lie in this situation though, so I believe him. Short days are good for scum, and there is still plenty of scumhunting to be done on this day, so I will not vote him at this point.

Here Pappums clues into why Zinger wasn’t lying (he wasn’t) and reverses his read.

That is the full extent of Pappum’s in-game ISO regarding Zinger. Here is his thread post game comment to Zinger.

Zinger, people are rarely reported for making insults, especially against someone like GreyICE. Less QQ plox. And it doesnt help that you didnt own up to your bad vig shots either. Accepting the criticism of others is an important part of becoming a better mafia player, and all you did was shrug off everyone's comments on your kills and convinced yourself that everyone else was wrong. DK was a fair vig shot and Meransiel wasnt awfully terrible, but GreyICE and dana were terrible, terrible vig shots.

When there is a group of people who were decent choices like we had in this game and you choose players like those, who were obvtown like GreyICE and a softclaimed PR like dana, you should expect some criticism.

IMO this hardly looks like a player who thought Zinger did a competent job scum-hunting. In fact the bolded portion strongly indicates he thought Zinger was outside the group of players making 'decent' choices.

No significant posting in the Neighborhood QT at all from Pappums re Zinger.

So, is this “Zinger did a decent job” a retrofit or what?

Seventhly, as a result of Khan's game of mafia, where Iamausername as scum deliberately lied in such a way to make it look like a town gambit in order to gain towncred, Fonzhead is incredibly reluctant to suffer any known liar to live.

Hmmm, what happened to Sixthly?

Give me specifics here? Did Iam claim in a similar manner?

Are you seriously suggesting that Zinger’s gambit was made in a way to appear like a Town gambit? If anything Silver’s “He’s a better lynch than me” screams “Get me Cred” posting much more than ANYTHING Zinger has done.

You Policy Stance (which is basically a modified version of Lynch All Liars / Gambiters) is noted.

You have convinced me of one thing. That my vote needs to move.

UNVOTE: Silver
VOTE: Pappums

[MagnaofIllusion]

That's a pretty big "if", though. Imo Zinger is hostile/neutral third party more likely than scum based on his play here. I don't understand the point nor the possible win condition of a nonaligned Jailkeeper (please, point out if I'm wrong here) so I think he's lying about his role entirely.

Ok, so you think he's scum who made a completely fake Jailkeeper claim (ignoring the alignment element for the moment). What was his motive? And why make the claim when he did as scum?

The point of 3rd parties with alternate win conditions is to throw in some chaos into the balance of the set-up.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Sorry, is your argument that Zinger is a rational player? Also seriously, what part of 'Leading wagon' did you not understand?

No, my argument is that Zinger is a self-admitted DERP who made a stupid move (regardless of his alignment) and you seem to be attributing ONLY scum motivation to it. And that I don't lynch uncounter-claimed Town PRs in Large Games Day 1.

I laugh at the second line. You posted the following later in your response –

What the fuck? How is this kind of argument even relevant to anything, apart from mudslinging? I think what happened is I thought of another point i wanted to insert, so changed sixthly to seventhly and left a gap, then forgot what it was by the time i'd finished that point.

You can’t be ‘outraged’ about mudslinging when you actively do it yourself. Nice double standard you have going there guys.

No, that isn't what we said. We said he already had four of those votes when he first hinted he might not be town. That's clearly what 'He had four votes... when he first hinted he might not be town' means.

No, that’s not what you said. I’ve requoted your exact words and bolded the part where you directly say he acquired two of those votes AFTER hinting at anti-Town.

Firstly, your assertion that he was not under pressure is false. He had four votes, was tied for the lead,

and two of those votes had accrued pretty quickly when he first hinted he might not be town.

You can’t double back on that. It is clear as day what you originally said.

I'm confused. Why would town even hint they were not town? It's at least as stupid for town as it is for scum.

For a dumb-ass gambit. I see Fate derp it up directly claiming scum as Town all the time. It’s stupid as hell but it happens.

1) You're assuming he knew it would result in a massive wagon. If he knew it was going to result in a massive wagon, I don't think he does it as any alignment. Clearly, he must have thought that claiming third party would defuse some of the pressure on him.

And you are saying that active lurking would get him a massive wagon when this game is rife with lurkers and active lurkers. I’m sorry, but I’ll stand by my belief that it’s so vastly ludicrous a play to gambit as he did. And once again, he only really got momentum of votes once he hinted / claimed to be Not Town.

2) He was getting directly pressured for active lurking. He'd just gained two votes in quick succession. Someone had threatened to vig him in a manner that, at least, wasn't entirely clear it wasn't serious. The idea that he would definitely get away with it sounds like a huuuuuuuge stretch.

Not nearly the HUUUUGGGGE stretch you are making by saying claiming 3rd party is a viable ‘defense technique’.

And are you seriously suggesting that Zel1nk’s Vig claim should be taken seriously?

3) If you're town in that position (trying to active lurk to look a little scummy) and you start feeling the heat, would it not be better just to start doing a little scumhunting to relieve the pressure?

Of course it would. Are you saying that by making a sub-optimal play he must be scum?

4) The result of the gambit, if it 'worked' IE didn't result in him getting pushed to death's door, would be allowing him to go on active lurking like a mofo. There is a scum motive for that. There is a third party motive. There is no town motive.

No, that’s stupid. The proper play for scum in that position is just the same as Town … do a little (faked) scum-hunting. The gambit is inordinately stupid and doomed to fail.

Again, in what way is this not true for a town power role? If your motive is to preserve your role so you can help the town at night, doesn't 'Not making yourself a target' seem like the best move there, too? You've not presented ONE reason why it would be UNIQUELY bad for scum to do that gambit that doesn't also apply to town.

Hey, speaking of making putting arguments in people’s mouths. I’ve claimed any of what you are saying above. It’s bad regardless of alignment.

You have not presented one UNIQUELY credible reason why it would be a good move for scum. Seriously your “If it works” argument ignores that it isn’t going to work in almost all situations.

We know, because Zinger has said as such, that he plays elsewhere.

The majority of sites where mafia is played seem to have more in common with EM than here.

You are assuming that he is thinking in a 'Mafiascum style' and would be aware that claiming third party would be most likely to result in his swift demise. I am arguing for the possibility that he thought claiming 3p would boost his survival chances. Because, again: SUICIDE IS NOT A GOOD MOVE FOR TOWN EITHER!

The bolded I disagree with 1000%. Most non-MS sites I see have more in common (gameplay wise) with MS than with EpicMafia.

As to suicide being not a good move for Town – why state the obvious?

Either you're being intentionally dense here or you're scum. How good someone's reasons are is irrelevant to whether or not they're scumhunting. Smart people have decent sounding reasoning as any alignment (

you in this game being an obvious exception

) dumb people have bad reasoning. As we have now explained twice, when Pappums said 'Decent scumhunting' he was talking about the fact that Zinger was making cases, taking stances etc. We have made it clear that he was not saying that Zinger's arguments in that game were good.

So yes, presenting cases and taking positions is 'decent scumhunting' even if the arguments themselves we disagree with.

In regards to the bold – Nice ‘insult the others intelligence to throw them off’ scum-tell. Thanks for that. It always makes my day when people have to go to that well.

You’ve ‘explained’ that twice. I’ve asked you to actually link / quote / reference posts in that game where you see evidence of scum-hunting. You’ve yet to do so.

Also I notice you dodge completely the rest of the quotes I posted where you DIRECTLY criticize Zinger’s play as bad post game. Nice.

Iam claimed in a massclaim to be a limited-shot cop. I called him on inconsistencies in his claim, and he changed to 'even night cop.' He later admitted that he was planning to switch to 'even night' all along, in order to look like a town player who was gambiting.

Oh, so the situation was not analogous to this one at all (ie Mass-claim assuming late in the day versus Day 1 before a single flip) and you are basically falling back on personal policy. Gotcha.

Since the Fonz head of this hydra is known to be the single most consistent advocate of lynch all liars on the site, we're not sure why this is a revelation. LaL is a good policy. People who lie about their roles are overwhelmingly scum.

This reminds me of Kingdom of Loathing Mafia where someone ran with what was they claimed was Fonz’s “Town Promise” policy that included not gambitting. It was then pointed out that the game in which said player had seen said policy Scum were the number 1 supporters of said policy and used it to win the game.

Strict policies are stupid. Sorry, they are. You only have to look no further than Superhero Mafia for evidence. I specifically mis-represented the nature of my role (I presented as a Tracker not a Cop) as a means of further trapping scum. And it was effective and successful. But no, under your policy I would have been lynched the Day I revealed I was gambitting and a Cop not a Tracker. That would have been an inordinately stupid play.

--

I skimmed a lot and I'll reread at n1, but just to point another thing out to a few of the naysayers of the Zinger wagon: If he's scum... then his little gambit worked on you, didn't it? I mean hell, look, it may be because it is such a stupid thing to do, but in the end he convinced you that he is town because of his gambit. Isn't that interesting how it worked on a good number of you? Of course it's possible he's town, or even third party, but food for thought.

More food for thought – you do understand that anyone who disagrees with the wagon Day 1 doesn’t have to believe he’s Town right. I’m not certain at all whether he’s Town or Third Party. I just know it’s a bad move to lynch an un-counterclaimed Town PR (even if it was a stupid and elaborate path that got him to that claim) Day 1.

This little Appeal to Fear (look, you could be wrong) is noted.

[MagnaofIllusion]

VOTE: Pappums

I don't think more needs to be said on this issue.

Also pending Mod confirmation on something regarding one of the Neighborhoods I may provide the identity of the Neighborizor I think is scum soon.

[MagnaofIllusion]

One of the?

Didn't you say they were identical earlier? :S

Thoughtedit: You did, 1394.. or did they reveal more information?

Don't be dense. I'm saying that over the course of the Night I've developed a much stronger possible scum read on one than the other.

The mechanics of their abilities are identical, as far as they have said.

[MagnaofIllusion]

This Silver discussion I think is very warranted.

With Zinger's flip as Town the way that the Silver wagon briefly crested above Zinger's ( I think at 9 votes to 8 IRRC) and then dropped in favor of Zinger's final wagon is very telling if Silver is scum.

If he's scum there is a goldmine of scum to be found voting for Zinger during that swing period.

On the other hand if he's Town there is not much to be gained.

[MagnaofIllusion]

hello everyone!

Welcome ... provide some content and reads stat!

[MagnaofIllusion]

I tracked Vezok and he visited no one.

@Vezok - Please confirm if Junpei should hang immediately based on whether he is lying. Thank you.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Can I get some more Pappums votes please?

--

Awaiting MoI's neighbor dilemma

.

Also, I'm waiting on this whole neiborizing thing MoI has going on.

@magna: Looking forward to your line of thought.

Well at least I got three people to actually post that they were waiting. Good for further information.

I’ve been mulling over the Day 1 and Night 1 play of the Neighbors. I’ve come to the conclusion that one is much more likely to be scum than the other.

What I wanted to confirm with the Mod is if that Neighborizor actually recruited last night. Had they not recruited I would have outed them immediately.

As it turns out they do appear to have recruited. The recruit is someone I have a Null read on but the reasoning for said recruitment was very, very bad.

Here’s a run-down of my thoughts on why they are more likely to be scum.

1. Dayplay in thread has been very substandard and lurky.
2. QT reasoning that I found suspect –

A. They said they considered skipping Day recruiting at first.
B. Low overall QT precence and no-scum hunting therein. His early interactions with me are asking general gameplay questions like “Why is Hydra Dissonance scummy”.
C. After some time asks point blank whether I think he is more Town than the other Neighborizor.
D. Suggests in QT that he might not Night Recruit (which I find a huge scumdar Ding) to ‘preserve the Integrity’ of the QT.
E. The second recruit to the Neighborhood was a scum-read of the Neighborizor. After he talked about ‘keepeing the integrity’.

So I’ve made the call and am going to say –

At this juncture I feel

Andrew

is much more likely of the two Neigbhorizors to be scum.

--

10/10 A+ lynch, would do it again in a second.

Of course you would, scum love mislynching Town Power Roles Day 1.

Other good lynches: chkballin, Izak and maybe oversoul and chevre

You aren’t listing Pappums or hipaddict here. Not sure why not. Oh, are they your scum partners?

--

This irks me. If i'm scum the way you word this seems to be the people on my wagon saw that Zinger was the more probable lynch and hopped back on instead of bussing me. Yet if I'm town, then the people who swung don't reveal anything? Why's that the case?

You know what irks me? Your scummy play. But I digresss.

If you are scum then those people who swung the wagon (they don't have to be ON your wagon, BTW) strongly back towards Town Zinger after yours became VERY viable are much more likely to be partners. That’s a pretty obvious conclusion.

If you are Town then scum don’t really have a reason to swing the wagon between two Townies (other than the slight motivation to get the claimed PR lynched over the claimed VT which holds risks). Are there scum there? Possibly. But the chances of concentrated scum in that segment that swung the vote from 9-8 for you to die over to Zinger is much less likely, IMO.

If I can’t get some momentum on Pappums I’ll be voting you. Just a heads up for you. I HATE when Vanilla Town claims get off the hook in leiu of Town PRs.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I am quite a bit of a pureist in this game. If somepony always screws around when you are playing in groups, you either stop playing with them, or just lynch them. Unlike life we apparently can't stop playing with someone, so we lynch them. Only way I was not letting that happen was a mason claim.

Well I’m of the opinion that someone who blatantly pushes a claimed Town power role lynch over a claimed VT Day 1 on what I find to be stupid ‘purity’ reasons is scum.

So we see eye to eye.

hip I could see as scum, but he isn't in the "needs death" pool but the acceptable lynch one. Pappums and yourself need to stop getting into this what almost seems like game leader competition over where both of you have taken differnt opinions of rival loud player to be scum tells. Im pretty sure its town v town, and it needs to come to an end at this point.

Oh, so you look at Pappums ISO and see scum-hunting and Town play?

Thanks for dropping the TvT tell for me though.

Where did silver claim VT? I don't think he ever did that.

Then return to Equestria and take a correspondence course in reading / critical thinking.

Silver’s “It’s better to kill me than Zinger” statement is a clear VT claim. And was completely correct.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Of course it was obvious that he essentially claimed VT early on, which is that town tell I was harping on all yesterday.

The thing is silver doesn't give me the air of someone who is very attentive to their past posts, and if scum someone who very easily could have decided to claim some power on a whim, and get instant caught.

Thats why him being off the Zinger wagon was a massive towntell, and if ever combined with an eventual VT claim which after the early posts today we are getting regardless of his alignment, would make him one of my top town reads. Would the trap have worked if he is scum?

No clue, but I wanted it there just incase, which leaves me a little peeved that ponies have gone and wrecked it.

The bolded I find not very believable. I’m sorry but setting it up as some grand 'Tarp' on the off chance he was dumb enough to ‘forget’ he claimed Vanilla to catch him later when you could have lynched him over a claimed Power Role is just pointless.

Also yes, I read pappums as town. Asking "really?" doesn't change it.

I didn’t expect it to change. I just wanted you to confirm your stance. You could have shown ISO posts of solid scum-hunting in his ISO. But I’m happy with your confirmed position being on record.

You know what town normally does when they see two town reads fighting?

The STOP THE FIGHT by trying to prove why both people are town to everypony else, or at least prove why their pick is more likely scum.

You did neither, but just sat back the entire time.

I’ve bolded the part that I find laughably scummy.

1. I’d love to see examples Day 1 of ‘proving Towniness’ that actually have any credibility.
2. You are knocking someone who didn’t push a wagon on Town Power Role while you yourself did? Fantastic work their Chief.

--

Are you willing to tell us who the second recruit was?

If you aren't, can you give us your own opinion on the one he recruited? Do you think they're scummy?

No I am not willing to directly disclose said player. Andrew has that choice, as does said player. I think even if Andrew is scum the QT scum-hunting opportunities are still strong enough to warrant it being hidden.

I will say I have a Null leaning Town read on said player. Their play has been so-so (especially early) but I see several Town oriented posts at the end of the Day yesterday that I don’t see coming from scum (unless we are in multiscum which is unproven and the lack of deaths last night seems to suggest isn’t the case).

--

But david I would also like to know if he feels that it was scummy for andrew to recruit that person or not. Try not to go into detail if you aren't going to announce who it is but give us your general opinion on the matter.

Yes, recruiting someone into a Neighbor QT who you feel is a scum-read is scummy IMO.

--

Well I never asked for the me scum explanation but ok. Expand on the bold, specifically these risks. It's a little scary how your downplaying the swing in that zinger's wagon dies and mine picks up... then mine dies and zinger's picks up again as normal.

A Lynched PR is always going to kill off the PR, you have no idea what would have happened if they had to try to NK him instead and it's a MUCH HIGHER risk.

Zinger has flipped Town. Trying to look for scum behavior in the wagons by looking for how scum wanted to save the claimed Town PR by wagoning you isn’t very fruitful or even logical, IMO.

I don’t know what you are even trying to say in the bolded portion. I’ll respond to it if you clarify.

If you "know" I'm scum then why even bother to wait less I'm at L-1?

1. Way to put words in my mouth. When did I say I “know” you are scum or say that I was waiting for L-1?
2. Just because you look like a good lynch doesn’t mean I am going to ignore other scum candidates. I’ll use my words and votes as I see fit. Sorry, that’s not how I roll.

--

@everyone you know how you demanded junpei's track. and he said vezok. what if vezok said he did go somewhere. who would you believe.

This is scummy strirring the pot. You’ve asking us to take sides in a theoretical scenario that hasn’t happened. Vezok and Junpei did not contradict each other.

ok so moi outed me. cool. after wanting more votes on pappum.

Wanting more votes on another scummy candidate doesn’t mean I shouldn’t do what I think is best for Town. And at this stage I’m doubting very much you are Town. So I wanted to directly post the inforamtion.

compare that to my posts in the thread

Are you asking me to compare them to the QT thread? I’m not clear on your point here.

lol whats wrong with that

So as theortical Town Neighborizer you’d rather skip the ability to take a Town read into the QT to bounce reads off of Day 1 and instead want to hold off? Unless your ability is more restricted than you have indicated I don’t see a Town reason for doing that.

Scum on the other hand would have to balance the danger of bringing a Town player into the QT and risk getting fingered for play on two fronts (Thread and QT)

because i dont even know what that is.i have scumhunting in the thread. you never intiated any reads on any players privately. all my reads i posted on the game

I didn’t initiate reads as a means of testing you. The other Neighborizer did offer reads up unbidden. You did not.

i had a feeling i was the less town

So instead of trying to demonstrate through Pro-Town actions you just asked instead?

same as why i didnt wanna day recruit fast. and bro i asked jason and he said you could invite anyone. i then asked if one was scum, whether he could invite his scumbuddies. he said yea. hello??

Hello whut? You are the Neighborizer. You are the ONLY one who can invite someone to the QT. Why would you even be concerned about being able to invite a scum-buddy unless you are scum?

read again

I did read. You said, paraphrased “I saw something the other Neighborizer said that was a scum slip and implicated Player Y as scum with them. So I recruited Player Y”. In the same QT post (36 BTW) you said to the effect of “I believe you are scummy for what the other Neighborizor said”.

Why you didn’t just recruit a Town read of yours is beyond me.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I can understand the issue with two neighborizors in a game, it's a really strong role since it proves that people are town every day even if it dies if it targets scum.

Can both players show me the breadcrumbs on who they targeted in case they died overnight?

Um Neighborizors do nothing of the sort. Masons prove alignment via their role. Neighborizors don't. It is very doubtful there are any breadcrumbs to find given the roles.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Huh? Are you saying they can recruit scum?

Neigbhorizors recruit players to a Neighborhood. No-one in the Neighborhood is alignment confirmed. Town and scum both are fully capable of having a Neighborizor role. I can link to tons of examples as necessary.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I agree with Hipaddict1, you are obligated to tell town who/if you shot, it is important information.

No, he's not. Unless someone has been at the precipice of being lynched (L-1) there is NO obligation for them to post any possible Night actions.

[MagnaofIllusion]

MOD - I'm V/LA til Monday morning for my usual family weekend duties.

[MagnaofIllusion]

This game is making my brain hurt. I'll try to make something of a post in the next 48 hours.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Succinctness is also part of the game. Learn it.

Oh, you are one of those blowhards who whines about succinctness. Now I see why your every post grates like fingernails on the chalkboard when I read them.

I'll be back in the morning with some reads and short posts. Too much spamtastic back and forths. Congrats everyone you've killed my interest in the game. I didn't think that was possible.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Ok, large catchup post incoming

–

Here are my current strongest scum reads:

Pappums

– My stance hasn’t changed. I re-ISOed them to see if their performance had changed.

Lack of significant scum-hunting. The only ‘wagon’ they initiated both days was Chevre. All their other votes have been following along. The ISO still chock full to the brim with “Look, I’m all wise” posts that make the slot seem active but are not scum-hunting. Finally the back and forth with me at the end of Day 1 where they did everything in their power to discredit my opinions with rhetoric (Lulz, MoI is stupid). Fonz … feel free to mark this down as a “I should be playing better than this” condemnation aka Thor if you like.

ThreeisFrench / HipAddict slot

– Absolute lurking and staying out of the limelight Day 1 and Day 2 pre-flake combined with the reaction to me calling them scum - “You have NOTHING” isn't a Town Driven thought process.

Andrew

– Clearly the more scummy of the Neighborizors, IMO. His explanations continue to make no logical sense in relation to each other. Finally the position the other Neighborizor has taken in QT regarding Andrew would be suicide for Scum who knew the odds of two Town Neighborizors are next to nil. Andrew, on the other hand, occasionally clings to the concept that they might be both Town. Lastly his attempt to cloud the waters with the whole “What if Vezok did go somewhere, who would you believe” was scummy at all get out.

Silver

– Hydra dissonance Day 1 regarding wagon / “I don’t understand the wagon” combined with his “Vote me not Zinger” and subsequent not following through on that stance from a game-play perspective. Tack on some of his posts today (his exchange with DavidX / Junpei on page 69) and I have a recipie for “No Change in Read”

Castle Bravo

– just reading his posts today on gut alone I’d wagon him if any of my other scum reads were not viable wagons. Some of this originates from the fact he is also a pretty clear Alt.

I have some other floating around but these are the strongest ATM.

I have a whole list of “flying under the Radar” players. Clearly not all of them are scum but given the volume scum are definitely hiding out here in some fashion –

vezokpiraka
PeregrineV
drmyshottyizsik
ZeL1nK
izakthegoomba
Mysterio
Jackelope
Oversoul

--

I trust MoI enough to say andrew is a good lynch, although anyone who stops the silver lynch is essentially a good lynch as far as im concerned here.

Why do you trust my judgement? Clearly we have clear differences – I see Silver as scum and I think your stance on Zinger Day 1 was either scummy or stupid. We have no completed games together (although you are a clear Alt).

I still really dislike this silver wagon, that one feels really scum driven and dismisses a few decent town tells as simply WIFOM.

Since vollkan isn’t here I’ll take up the banner and say what needs to be said –

'Town tells' are inherently WIFOM. Unless your opinion is said player is so incompetent that they can’t fake behavior than anything that is inherently a ‘Town tell’ is at best Null, IMO. Chesskid is a prime example … he’s proven as scum to be willing and able to replicate ‘Town tells’ to avoid lynches and he certainly isn’t ever going to win an award for good play.

--

Though there is a perfectly rational basis for neighborizing scum reads. The question is, does it appear he was trying to scumhunt or not?

No, the question is why would you bother to Neighborize a scum read (even one that was relational to another players not in the QT) if you had previously stated that you wanted to keep “Town Integrity” in the QT.

--

By no stretch of the imagination could Zinger's play be considered pro-town or understandable town play. I challenge anyone who will argue that it should have been obvious that he was a pro-town role based on his play; I accept that others may have seen things I didn't, but it wasn't OBVIOUS.

You also don’t lynch a claimed Town Power-role Day 1 of a Large theme without a counter-claim. That’s Mafia 101. The people who pushed at him despite that deserve scrutiny.

@MagnaOfIllusion: Based on the private discussion, are you certain enough that Andrew is scum that you'd be willing to vote him, or is it more a hunch than a firm read?

I think I explained above but yes I would certainly be willing to do so.

--

1. In case 1: Obviously, he would play it safe and neighborize HIS OWN TEAM. Which means that if andrew is scum then MoI is scum. Which is a massive leap that I will not make.

You inadvertently make what might be a strong point here.

Andrew took some time making his Neighborize decision. If scum don’t have Daytalk (and they did not in Superhero Mafia while the Neighborhood did) then he might have waffled on that decision.

I’ll have to mull that over.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I forgot this which I posted in the Mystery Neighborhood QT -

vezokpiraka 55
Rainbowdash 57
David Xanatos 60
Pinky and the Brain 55
VifamJunpei 65
Rodion 60
Leonshade 64
ThreeIsFrench 55
killerjester 55
silverbullet999 60

These are vollkan's non-50 reads from the last post he made with them before he died. Vollkan died for a reason since both claimed PowerRoles (Zel1nk and Junpei) who claimed Day 1 are still alive.

Maybe scum was worried about protection.
Maybe one or both of them are actually scum.
Maybe they had a PR read on vollkan.
Maybe vollkan was on to something.

It may be some sort of combination of the above. But it would be foolish to let this bit of possible info go quietly away.

[MagnaofIllusion]

MoI, how important in your suspicion of Pappums is his tunneling on Chevre (now Chevre's slot)? Cause, well IMO anyway, Chevre's slot was scummy.

It is at best secondary. Look at their posts regarding Chevre and decide if that is dedicated scum-hunting or just fake-hunting. I think the later, and along with their large quantity of posting of "Safe, Townie Style" posts that don't actually say anything about alignment but preach on Mafia Theory I get a solid Scum read.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Ok, having reviewed the last Mod VC I'm going to

UNVOTE: Pappums
VOTE: Silver

I still see him as scum. If he flips scum the information surrounding the Silver to Zinger wagon swing at the end of Day 1 becomes a great place to hunt scum.

[MagnaofIllusion]

In honesty, I did to begin with, but frankly I keep getting the feeling he's more VI than Scum by this point..

So is the only reason you are voting Andrew have to do with the dueling Neighborizor claims? Because I can't see a valid argument that says Silver is a VI on the scale of Andrew.

[MagnaofIllusion]

PaTB makes a very cogent point on Meran re: Izak and Shotty.

Good work fellows!

Care to respond Meran?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Mod – I’ll be V/LA for my usual weekend family duties from today at 5pm EST until Monday morning.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Right now I'm calling bullshit on Shotty's Daycop claim for various reasons that will be discussed later pending QT results.

[MagnaofIllusion]

VOTE: DrShotty

Once I'm done I'll be back to explain more fully why.

[MagnaofIllusion]

First in regards to Pappums being Vengeful – I now completely understand what they were doing in playing as specifically scummy as they did.

--

Unless there are several protecting roles, such as another JK, doctor, roleblocker, etc, one kill a night suggests that ZeLink is a vig and that his shots are limited. Serial Killers have unlimited shots and there would be 2 kills a night because of the extra SK shots.

Why do you still believe Zel1nk is a Vig at all? What evidence other than his claim do you see? Isn’t the more likely answer that Zel1nk was gambitting / fake-claiming?

--

Also holy damn, Michael Westen is a 100% Miller JOAT in Burn Notice. That must be a strange coincidence Oversoul.

So is your opinion that he’s making up the claim?

--

Regarding Shotty’s claim

–

I don’t buy it for a number of reasons.

1. Someone unknown to the general population has claimed a direct investigative role in the QT.
2. Shotty’s claiming something aka to SuperJOAT that makes absolutely NO sense in context of every other PR so far known in the game and Jason’s general Mod meta for role design.
3. Daycop / Tracker / QT investigative role? Very unlikely that everyone is telling the truth. In Superhero Mafia there was a Single Cop. At least one of Shotty / Junpei / Mystery Person is lying or scum with the role or both.

Nope, I, in a way, killed Pappums. I have more than just a cop ability. I have 4 abilities actually. Each of which can be used a max of 4 times, and only 3 times in a consecutive day/night phase.

So any particular ability can’t be used more than 3 times in consecutive Day / Night phases. Yet the following post

MoI- VT
Rainbow Dash- VT
Andrew- mafia neighborizer

I have a pending result on ZeL1inK, but Jason just picked up that PM so it shouldn't be long

This and later posts basically say you have used it 4 Day / Night phases in a row. Technically 3 plus pre-game but I'll get to that later.

Strike one.

Very true, I got one pre-game Role Cop shot, and I've used one each day. Last night I used one of my other abilities as well. More on this later.

Role Cops don’t generally return alignment just role. Tracker / Neighborizor / Vanilla.

Strike two

Use of an ability Pre-game? Especially given there was no N0 and both Neighborizors who could act during the Day didn't get a pre-game use of their powers.

Strike three.

Pre Game- Rainbow Dash(Cop)
D1- MoI(Cop)
D2- Andrew(Cop)
N2- Pappums(Made Guard)
D3- ZeLinK(Cop)

Also mafia had to have hit me.
Each night I can choose a person to guard me, so if I am NK'd they are NK'd, but the trick is if I choose to use that ability during the night and no one tries to kill me I get majorly fucked. If I use it and I'm not targeted then not only can I not use an ability for the next two days, but I can also never use that ability again.

1. RainbowDash wasn’t in the game Pre-game. He would have chosen Pvt Slate. I can understand identifying the slot but given the other players he has 'chosen' Pvt Slate makes NO sense as a target.
2. Note there is no mention of the fact that he would have had to have chosen vollkan N1 to be his guard. Yet per his own statement he should have not been able to use his abilities if he didn't. And if he did he would have claimed it at the same time as claiming the Pappums shot if he was telling the truth.
3. Why target Pappums for possible death? Why not an actual scum read of his like Silver? Makes no logical sense.

Strike four through whatever you like.

Lastly his ‘breadcrumb’ is hardly confirming evidence. Scum can and will crumb also. I’ve done it myself.

In summary? Shotty’s claim is a horribly executed fake-claim of some sort. Knowing what I know about the set-up I don’t buy for a second that Shotty has ANY CHANCE of being what he claimed.

More Shotty votes please!

--

Actually the whole day cop thing makes sense. You didn't jump on andrew until we were well into D2.

My current take is it was a terribly managed bus that has exploded into the pile of crap we have seen today.

--

Why am I still alive :/

You need to elaborate exactly what you mean with this.

--

There are two town factions. I have no clue why.

[/quote]

Um, whut in the hell is this?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Also MoI is confirmed scum.

Free cookie when someone tells me why.

"LOL U MAD"

Lulz Alt failure ....

[MagnaofIllusion]

Eh, you've known it was me for a few days now, so well.

No given your reads I figured it was someone noticably dumber.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I'd be a little more surprised if I wasn't gonna ask WHOSE game you were a bulletproof unroleblockable doctor in and then proceed to laugh hysterically about your mod meta comments

Oh you mean Danakillsu's game?

Yeah, if you are going to try to actually make a good argument you might want to actually research before typing.

[MagnaofIllusion]

It was a superhero game so same dif. The governor was in the last Jason game.

Point being, shotty's claim makes so little sense it actually seems uncoached, meaning either the scum team has cut their losses, or it's DMSIS shit.

You're just basically obv scum. Rodion has been obv scum for a long while. Scumreads begging shotty for info = shotty not scum. Just shotty.

Lulz.

Sorry the facts just blew up in your face like a frat guy.

Oh, I'm obv-scum. Oh and you are calling Rodion obv-scum also? Classic

Attention all QT people - note what scumtastic McScumpants is saying above. Then chuckle.

Grey go sit in the corner till your turn to hang comes tomorrow. You are embarrasing yourself.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Zinger and Pampus flipped blue town. Volkan flipped green town.

In Jason games Blue means Town Power Role and Green means Vanilla Town.

I'm not sure why ... it just does.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I FUCKING UNDERSTAND EVEN LESS NOW.

Just vote for Shotty.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Role Cops Usually Don't get Alignment

Youa re so dumb. The role is called vanilla townie. Are you one? Yes, according to the mod you are. Look at Andrew's Death Scene his role title was MAFIA neighborizor.

Role Cops get results like Vanilla. Without straining myself here is the write up from the Wiki page -

A Role Cop is an investigative role that receives the role name of its target. In Normal games, this is "Cop", "Doctor", "Roleblocker, and so forth. There is no indication of the target's alignment; if a Mafia Goon is investigated, they return "Vanilla".

So no ... you blew your claim.

And this is the ONLY thing you can attack on my post on you.

Just die, scum.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Also every role I've said is correct, has anyone said that they are not what I say they are? NO!

Town Power Role Fishing in Action!!!!!!!

[MagnaofIllusion]

I'm going to leave the thread now. I expect when I get a chance to check things later Shotty will be properly fitted for the rope as is obvious from his claim.

Toodles ....

[MagnaofIllusion]

We are in the Theme Park, Normal Guidelines do not apply
UNVOTE:

Oh, ok.

So what do you think of the 19 other things wrong with his claim? Hmmm?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Kill it with fire. That's the only way to kill a troll.

Chkballin read my post highlighting all the holes in his claim. It is hardly just Mod meta.

And just because we are in Theme Park does not mean his claim is viable.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Castle slash Grey is basically trolling to get the attention of his PR partner Shotty.

Not hard to see. Now let's get to roping Shotty and then hang partner Bravo tomorrow.

[MagnaofIllusion]

LULZ Grey it is so cute when you flail.

[MagnaofIllusion]

What flailing?

I'VE CLAIMED SCUM.

HOW AM I FLAILING?

Hammer me, MoI, hammer me.

You are flailing in ever wider, clown-like circles of uselessness posting piles of crap hoping against hope that it will distract from you partner Shotty.

You've claimed scum. It's refreshing since you obviously are. Town can deal with your insignificant self whenever we choose.

But by all means ... keep flailing ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

Shotty why did you choose Rainbow and I?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Shotty - What is the name of your role. I don't care about your character just your role.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Shotty - Your role-name. In your next post please!!!!

[MagnaofIllusion]

why would we want two claims sounds kinda gay

So whose alt are you?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Ok, so you are scum ... got it ... thanks!

[MagnaofIllusion]

I havent read the rest of this game since this morning. Im on my phone and I have one thing to say. I replaced into this game and I have no idea why MoI or RD were chosen.

ROLE NAME NOW!

[MagnaofIllusion]

really what is there to say at this point.. I'm debating hammering atm to be quite frank as I stated what I felt already in prior post.

Dear good ... is there something in the scum win condition that says "Day Three you must claim scum in thread or be Modkilled"?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Ok peeps ... keep the following in mind for tomorrow ...

1. Shotty's claim is so terrible and obviously fake he needs to die ASAP.
2. CastleBravo needs rope also. InbeforeGreyComesBackWithItWasAGambit!!!
3. Fourseen circumstances commited another absolute Cardinal scum-telll - coming into thread and immediately saying "The previous inhabitants of my slot were so bad I should have been killed" (in essence .. not directly for any of you that were planning on being smart-asses).

[MagnaofIllusion]

Hey before you chuckleheads start trying to wagon Rodion ...

He's one of Chkballin's scans - he came back No Gun.

So of course if you are scum like CastleBravo you can keep pushing him.

Otherwise be voting SCumBravo or DMSIS today. They are the only acceptable lynches.

VOTE: CastleBravo

It must be frustrating to be cornered scum who has no other option that to play so badly people can't possibly think you are scum Grey.

Just quietly eat a rope and the shame can be over for the moment.

When I'm not V/LA (which I am as usual on the weekends ) I'll return with more cogent comments.

[MagnaofIllusion]

NOMINATE TO HAMMER: Rodion

(totally unofficial)

I think you just volunteered since we have a Gunsmith No Gun result on Rodion.

Nice of you to not read the thread when bussing your partner scumbag.

[MagnaofIllusion]

No. Rodion is confirmed not to have a weapon.
He could be Mafia doctor, SK, or some other third party.

Mafia Doctors have guns ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

Large catch-up post incoming –

DEAR GOD WHAT IS WITH ALL THE UNNEEDED CLAIMING? YOU PEOPLE

…..

--

Who was the user in this game that so adamently said there were no cults?

Nobody in thread. There has been discussion behind the scenes in QT about the lack of likelihood of a cult given none was announced and the game hasn’t been advertised as Bastard (which an unannounced Cult is per site norms).

Did word get back to you via Scum quicktopic about that discussion?

If either Silver or Junpei flip scum the other (via the above) is very likely (95%) to be a buddy. Don't forget this.

--

And your reason for not voting him is b/c you're afraid he might be vengeful?

We've already had a vengeful flip.

Quite frankly – so what? We’ve already have proven examples of Town and Scum both having a duplicate power (Neighborizor). Why shouldn’t the possibility of more mirroring be considered?

--

On the topic of Shotty’s claim – It is still bunk as I discussed before.

1. Inventors don’t get to use their own items the Night they make them. Also, claimed role-name is borked.
2. Pre-game ability to use something while Day and Night Neighborizors didn’t get a pre-game use of ability? Crap.
3. Role-fishing from myself, Rainbow and Zel1nk with VT claims from “RoleCop” result. For the record I’ve not disputed or confirmed such because that is the sole purpose of his “RoleCop” – fishing.
4. Look at his claimed breadcrumb – he breadcrumbed RoleCop when he’s an inventor with multiple powers. Doesn’t make sense.
5. His role makes no sense as a Town Role having a Role-Cop and Weak Doc abilities when we already have flipped Jailkeeper and Gunsmith roles.

SHOTTY – JUST TO BE CLEAR … YOU ARE HAMMERING CASTLE TODAY.

--

MoI - I think it now falls on you to publish all of Chk's reports.

Yeah.

Chkballin had two scans, both No Gun.

Rodion was the first as previously mentioned. Pinky was the second. Chkballin had real concerns about their play and wanted to ‘clear’ the QT as much as possible. Yeah, they were in the QT with Neighborizor, myself and Chkballin.

--

@RainbowDash at 2409

– Why, if you think CB is WIFOMing scum are you bothering to engage him in discussion. Really curious about your motive.

If CB or DMSIS are not being lynched its Meran or FC today.

Oh no, it’s CB or DMSIS today. No other options are acceptable

--

It's my understanding that Serial Killers usually show up as no gun. Is that still usually the case?

Yes that is correct. Given the derth of kills so far any reason you think we have a Serial Killer?

VOTE: Fourseen Circumstance

I have zero tolerance for this crap. I don't care what your alignment is, if you don't want to play, don't replace in.

Fourseen is a Troll. Looking at his posting history around site confirms this pretty easily. Whether he is a Troll Alt or just a regular Troll isn't really important to the discussion. Your voting for him over claimed scum in Castle or DMSIS raises alarms for me.

This should not be construed to mean that I think Rodion is a Mafia doctor. I think he's probably town and that I was wrong. But he's not CONFIRMED town, nor are any of the others until Shotty flips town or scum imo.

Rodion is as confirmed Town as you can get this game. As much so as anyone a Shotty Town flip would become. As much as ANY player ever can be in Mafia. If said players survive late, late into the game you can start to think about Godfather / Investigation Immune possibilities. This early on (we have 20 people alive and 2 scum down) there is no point to already going “He’s not confirmed”

[MagnaofIllusion]

@MoI since when did you get to dictate who hammers today? I was under the impression we were free to choose that as a group.

You gave that up when you kept pushing Rodion to hammer despite the fact that we have Gunsmith "No Gun" result on them. It demonstrated you actually aren't reading.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@MoI as I already said, I skimmed one section, when I was I a hurry and just wanted to get a quick post in. And how did I "give that up"? You are looking for non-existent reasons to deny me an opinion. You just pinged the Scumdar™. Speaking of which...

Castle Bravo - 9/10
drmyshottyizsik - 7/10
Meransiel - 7/10
Junpei - 7/10
silverbullet999 - 7/10

Izak I’ve been specifically baiting your for reactions. How can I realistically ‘deny you an opinion’? Are you expecting me to stalk you down and steal your keyboard?

On the other note I’m quoting the very top portion of his scum read list to demonstrate the inherent Cognitive Dissoance in his posting exchange for me.

He’s attacking me for stating that Shotty must be the hammerer of Castle. Whoever we are pushing as hammerer should be at the top of our scum-list. Which Shotty is for both of us.

Yet I’m scummy for pushing strongly my scum-read. Who also happens to be near the top of Izak’s list.

--

I point out that Magna never answered my correction FROM THE RULESET about Mafia doctors so it's not like he's infallible.

Really? Where in THE RULESET does it state what you quoted in ISO 65 / 2486? Hmmm. Please point me to where in Jason’s posts you stated that.

Oh, do you mean the Wiki which is a general information area? That isn’t a hard and fast ruleset as the RoleCop doesn’t / does get Alignment information discussion proved earlier?

I think Magna is conveniently forgetting what he claimed earlier was a "cardinal scumtell."

Oh no … Foreseen’s “Why aren’t I dead” is a Cardinal scum-tell. No doubt about that. He’s also pure Troll. Look through his posts site-wide if you want to dispute me on this.

Meanwhile you are doing a great job ignoring Castle / Shotty as scum suspects. If either one doesn’t flip scum of some sort after all is said and done I’ll be sure to remember this post where you distanced from either wagon.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I have already said that I can't get a read on Castle because he's angry and that's a nulltell. He's furious with you. Care to comment on why?

No he’s not furious. He’s attempting to bait for fun since he knows he’s toast. That’s why I’m pretty much ignoring his feeble attempts to move the discussion to a pure flaming and name-calling level … he’s hoping against hope he can nurse a modkill for insults.

And your comment about the Mafia doctor? Look at it again, with the "rolleyes" and tell me you're not being annoyingly condescending to me, along with most of the other players in the game. And you aren't even guaranteed to be right, the wiki contradicts you. So lay off the snotty attitude, please.

I notice you’ve completely side-stepped the issue whereby you called the Wiki the THE RULESET in some attempt to bolster your position.

The Wiki isn’t guaranteed to be right either. I’ve personally never seen any Mafia other than a Godfather be exempt from Gunsmith examination. I’m working on my personal experience. You on the other hand are just parroting the Wiki.

Question

– don’t want to address my point that speculation about Rodion’s confirmed status at this juncture is anti-Town / scummy? I see you also dodged that aspect of the discussion completely.

However, my vote on FourseenCircumstance ALREADY had more effect on him than your back and forth sniping with CB has had on HIM.

Oh really? Praytell how do you make this claim? Fourseen’s posting hasn’t changed in any noticeable way.

…. you're not voting for CB ….

I’ve pulled out the part that I think needs correcting here -

Castle 8 - Mysterio,

MOI

, Fourseen, Vezo,THAdmiral, ,Nero,Jester,TheJakalope (L-3)

I’ve bolded the portion where it’s pretty clear I am voting Castle. Thanks for not paying attention.

[MagnaofIllusion]

VOTE: CastleScumbo

Rainbow you've been working to protect Derp Castle for the last two days. He needs to die. Cut it the fuck out.

DMSIS can continue faking obv-fake actions for one more Night.

If Rodion hadn't been such a fail Newb this wouldn't be an issue ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

@MOI:

I'm willing to vote (yes, and even hammer) Castle Bravo today if you agree we can lynch Shotty tomorrow with no more stalling.

Yes, that's how it should go. Castle today and Shotty tomorrow.

It should have been Castle yesterday and Shotty today but Rodion had to go and get all Mod-explodified on us.

[MagnaofIllusion]

No.

You admit right here that DMSIS and CB aren't town and I fully agree with you, but your lynch order is wrong. DMSIS is actually the bigger threat here, despite being far quieter about it than CB is. CB must be protecting somepony with this recent play, it must be DMSIS, that means that DMSIS is a bigger threat than CB. You *have* to be better then this. One pony fakes a role that changed and aslo fakes a guilty. Another pony claims goon and asks to be lynched. Which one probably has the better role? Which one is more of a threat?

Are they both dead soon? Oh hell yes. This needs to happen in the correct order though, go for the throat.

Also seriously? I was the one trying to get CB lynched yesterday while covering all possible bases.

Nope. Sorry, just no.

You instantly wavered away from CastleBravo after throwing down a half-hearted vote and tried to lynch Meran. Read yesterday again and tell me you didn't try to shift towards Meran as opposed to CB.

Your whole "Cult and Cult Recruitor" song and dance really is farsical.

CastleBravo dies today. Because he's asking to and there are no Jesters. It's a big wall of WIFOM that you are biting like a Newb. Castle is more dangerous alive than Shotty is even if Shotty has ANY PR and Castle is a Goon.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Twenty-four hours of being confirmed town, with the entire thread as a playground, to try and get this clusterfuck on track.

DrMyShotty is obvious role cop. He's obv not super role cop, the moron can't claim worth a hill of beans. Put together Role Cop and Goon cop for a second, and do a basic setup check. OH WAIT. These make PERFECT FUCKING SENSE TO BOTH BE TOWN. It's like putting a full cop in the game, but cut in half, with more benefits.

Lulz. Just fucking lulz.

Role-Cop, Goon Cop, Tracker and Gunsmith all Town in this game? No fucking way. Here's a hint Sherlock - 3 of those 4 have already flipped Town.

Go sit quietly in the corner until the noose arrives. If you somehow aren't scum you are a disgrace to your little band of buddies with your play this game.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Also a quick rundown on why MoI is full of shit: 27 players.

Yeah, think about that. There's what, one scum submitting the night kill? Tracker catching them is 5% odds. Assuming a RB/Doctor combo or somesuch, odds of Goon cop hitting scum are either 2/27 or 3/27. Role cop could get SK, or the other two of the PRs, so that's around 3/27 (and 'Doctor' result isn't going to make the Role Cop wish to claim real quick to see if it's scum doctor), and Gunsmith gets false positives on Tracker, both cops, both vengefuls, and a false negative on the doctor.

So his 'oh my word, there can't be 4 information roles' is one of the dumber things he's ever posted. The only excuse he has is the setup speculation regarding cults is so balls awful that RainbowDash should be shot. Oh wait...

See, now I know you are just trolling or you’ve gotten progressively stupider in every game we play together.

Superhero Mafia says hello and you are full of shit.

21 Players – 1 investigation role (Regular Cop). So in Castle’s world adding 6 players justifies adding 3 Town investigation role … DERP

The rest of your middle paragraph is a bunch of junk statistics (what does the ‘odds’ of a Tracker catching a Nightkill have to do with anything? A Tracker can catch scum in many other ways so your ‘It’s only 5% to track a Nightkill’ is moronic), pointless speculation (hmmmm … in a 27 person set-up you are saying at tops there are 5 Mafia total?) and farsical logic (a Goon Cop indicates that at least half the scum are Goons, which indicates that the scum team isn’t chock full of powers which undercuts any need for tons of Town investigation roles).

If you do happen to be Vengeful I’m glad you are dying. Your play has been abysmally bad and your reads have sucked on a Vezok / Shotty level.

The only thing I do agree on with you is that Rainbow’s Cult speculation is terrible.

1. Not a bastard game.
2. No advertised Cult.
3. Only ‘evidence’ is Shotty’s obv-fake Inventor / JOAT claim.

Cult speculation is something scum do love to run with to amp the Town paranioa and help divert scum-hunting away from Mafia.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Shotty

- You didn't claim your 'actual' actions.

Do so in your next post.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Good lynch.

Also for the cult, this game explicitly says cult is not forbidden, when more common roles are, yes im paranoid over my least favorite role actually existing.

Really? Why didn't you support the 'Good Lynch' then?

It doesn't matter if the game doesn't forbid Cults. Any game that doesn't explicitly say there is a Cult and doesn't advertise itself as Bastard should not have a Cult.

Period.

This is MS site norms ... call it the Blackest Night norm.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Shotty - full-claim in your next post.

Character - full role - all actions

and I might be convinced to let you live over your claimed Serial Killer result.

Don't and I'll push you over the edge.

Your choice.

Everyone else - Please don't hammer until he responds and I get a chance to follow-up. Thanks!!

[MagnaofIllusion]

Shotty I see you ignoring the thread posting elsewhere ....

On another note ... I want to complete a VC Analysis before the Day ends so please give me 48 hours to accomplish that.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Ok ... now seeing as he hasn't claimed his role name or character as I asked I'm going to vote Shotty once I get my VC analysis up.

Note that he got alignment with every other player but Mystery Player X ... how convenient.

@Shotty

- You are a terrible, terrible fake-claimer. Go sit in the corner until we hang you.

[MagnaofIllusion]

And look Shotty .... DerpGreyCastle claimed Mafia Goon. You claim to be Town. Neither of those are true either.

So stop flopping around like a fish out of water on the deck ... we'll be by shortly to put an end to your misery.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Here’s my quick VC analysis work. Confirmed Town (via Death) are blue. Confirmed scum are Red. Rodion is considered confirmed Town for these purposes.

All scum numbers are estimates based on site norms. This isn’t rocket science here … it is somewhat art so don’t bother trying to argue with me about how I approach the analysis. If you don’t like it …. do your own.

Day 4 has been omitted due to Rod’s Modkill.

Also I know in advance there are going to be some coloration issue with inconsistencies in the names used in the Vote-counts. The analysis should take these errors into account. Sue me.

End of Day 1 Vote Count

Day 1 Vote count 17

Zingerl

14 - Vezo,Mysterio,

Junpei

, FourseenC, Izak,

Pappum

,,

KillerJester

, DavidX,

Vollkanl

,

Rainbow

,Jakalope,

Pinky

, Banshee, Shotty. (Lynch)
Silver 6 -

Oversoul

, Nero, Mera ,

Zingerl

,

CHKBallin

,

Andrew

FourseenC 1 - PeregrineV
Izak 1 - ZeL1nk,

Andrew

1 -

THAdmiral

Nero 1 - Silver

Pappum

s 1 - MOI

Not Voting: 2 -

Castle

,

Rodion

.

Day 1 Analysis –

With 27 alive and an expected 8 total scum (average of expected amount at 25% and 33%) it is expected that 4 scum will be on the wagon and 4 scum off the wagon.

4 scum expected on the Wagon – Vezok, Mysterio, Fourseen, Izak, David, Jakalope, Banshee, Shotty

2 scum expected off the Wagon – Nero, Meran, Peregrine, Zelink, Silver

End of Day 2 Vote Count

Day 2 Vote Count 7

Andrew

13 -

THAdmiral

, Banshee, Killer, Izak, Shotty, Jackalope,

Rainbow

dash,

CHKBallin

,Castle,Nero,

Junpei

,ZeL1nk,Mera
Silver 3- , FourseenC, mysterio, ,MOI
Izak 3

Pinky

, Silver,

Pappum

s,

Rodion

1 - Vezo

Oversoul

1 -PeregrineV

Not Voting –

Rodion

,

Andrew

94,

Oversoul

, DavidX

Day 2 Analysis –

With 25 alive and an expected 8 total scum it is expected that at least 3 scum (either bussing or other faction) on the Andrew wagon and 5 scum off the wagon.

3 scum expect on the Wagon – Banshee, Izak, Shotty, Jakalope, Nero, Zel1nk, Meran

3 scum expected off the Wagon – Fourseen, mysterio, Silver, Vezo, Peregrine, David

End of Day 3 Vote Count

Day 3 Vote count 3

Oversoul

12 -

Rainbow

,

CHKBallin

,

THAdmiral

,

Pinky

,Shotty, Mysterio,TheJakalope, Meransiel,CastleB,Nero, FourseenCircumstance,

KillerJester

Castle

2 - vezokpiraka,

Rodion

Shotty 2 - MOI,

Oversoul

unforseen 1 -

Junpei

Not voting

PeregrineV,Banshee, ZeL1nK,izak ,silverbullet999,David Xanatos

Day 3 Analysis –

With 23 alive and an expected 7 total scum it is expected that at least 3 scum on the Oversoul wagon and 4 scum off the wagon

3 scum expected on the wagon – Shotty, Mysterio, Jakalope, Meran, Nero, Fourseen

3 scum expected off the wagon – Vezok, Peregrine, Banshee, Zel1nk, Silver, Izak, David

End of Day 5 Vote Count

Day 5 vote count 1

Castle 9 - Vezo,Fourseen, MOI, Banshee, ,Mysterio,DavidX,

THAdmiral

,Izak TheJakalope (Lynch)
Shotty 3 -

Rainbow

,PerigrineV, ZeL1nk
PerigrineV 1 - Castle

Not Voting

Meransiel
Nero Cain
drmyshottyizsik
silverbullet999

Day 5 Analysis –

With 17 alive and an expected 6 total scum it is expected that 3 scum will be on the wagon and 3 scum off the wagon.

3 scum expected on the wagon – Vezok, Fourseen, Banshee, Mysterio, David, Izak, Jakalope

3 scum expected off the wagon – Peregrine, Zel1nk, Meran, Nero, Shotty, Silver

[MagnaofIllusion]

Qualitative Analysis of Wagons –

4 scum in 8 players (.5 points each) – Vezok, Mysterio, Fourseen, Izak, David, Jakalope, Banshee, Shotty

2 scum in 5 players (.4 points each) – Nero, Meran, Peregrine, Zel1nk, Silver

3 scum in 7 players (.425 points each) – Banshee, Izak, Shotty, Jakalope, Nero, Zel1nk, Meran

3 scum in 6 players (.5 points each) – Fourseen, Mysterio, Silver, Vezok, Peregrine, David

3 scum in 6 players (.5 points each) – Shotty, Mysterio, Jakalope, Meran, Nero, Fourseen

3 scum in 7 players (.425 points each) – Vezok, Peregrine, Banshee, Zel1nk, Silver, Izak, David

3 scum in 7 players (.425 points each) – Vezok, Fourseen, Mysterio, David, Izak, Jakalope

3 scum in 6 players (.5 points each) – Peregrine, Zel1nk, Meran, Nero, Shotty, Silver

Complied Results –

Vezok – 1.85
Mysterio – 1.925
Fourseen – 1.925
Izak – 1.725
David – 1.85
Jakalope – 1.85
Banshee – 1.35
Shotty – 1.925
Nero - 1.825
Meran – 1.825
Peregrine – 1.825
Zel1nk – 1.75
Silver – 1.825

[MagnaofIllusion]

But Magna, what does it all mean?

First let’s Tier the suspects by their Compiled results

Top Tier (aka most scummy) of 1.925 – Mysterio, Fourseen, Shotty
Second Tier (in the 1.8s) – Vezok, David, Jakalope, Nero, Meran, Peregrine, Silver
Low Tier (below 1.8) – Izak, Zel1nk

Um, whut Tier (Banshee apparently disappeared from my last Day 5 Vote Count … to be corrected next time around if I live) – Banshee (expected in Second Tier looking at the Raw data again)

The MoIputer results here look pretty flat. That’s to be expected when there are so many expected scum floating around.

I’m not surprised at all that Shotty clocks in at the top of the list given his play.

I’d be looking at Mysterio and Fourseen’s slots heavily given their location in the tiers. I expect at least one is probably scum with Shotty.

Izak and Zel1nk look pretty solidly not likely to be scum at this stage.

Of course as more scum flips happen this analysis will have a greater spread.

--

Other, nonqualitative observations –

The Day 1 Silver wagon (Oversoul, Nero, Mera , Zingerl, CHKBallin, Andrew) pretty solidly clears both Meran and Nero of being Mafia. With two already on the wagon I doubt highly the Silver has more than 2 scum, especially given their cluster at the start of the wagon (Over, Nero, Meran)

The Day 2 Not Voting area pretty solidly clears DavidX of being Mafia. Again, with 2 Mafia already there clustering their votes like that isn’t likely to happen.

So looking at my tiers and the nonqualitiative observations my current pool of Most Likely Suspects (before looking at actual dayplay) is

Shotty, Mysterio, Fourseen, Vezok, Jakalope, Peregrine, Silver, Banshee

VOTE: Shotty. No need to wait any longer, IMO.

[MagnaofIllusion]

That's one of the most useless VCAs I've ever seen, and Banshee is 1.775, not 1.35.

Thanks, given your general play this game I'll take that as a compliment.

[MagnaofIllusion]

That's L-1. I don't see any big objections to the hammer but maybe it would be best to let everyone still alive check in.

[MagnaofIllusion]

So I take it that means you think there's 6 scum alive in 14 players?

Who were your suspects before doing that VCA?

That's an educated guess based on site standards and the PRs we have seen turn up so far.

I'd have to dig through the QT I had with Thad to see who I suspected before the whole Castle / Shotty / Rodion debacle. Fourseen was on my radar I do remember.

Who are your suspects? I've scanned your ISO and see a whole lot of not much in that department.

[MagnaofIllusion]

btw. here's what's obviously wrong with your VCA:

You're assuming a 50/50 split all the time, even on scum lynches.
You're not taking into account the "cop" result that led to andrew's lynch D2.
Your VCA is based on 8 players all knowing they're scum together - essentially you're suggesting a single 8-man scum team

And, well, it's not actually an analysis of any sort.

1. Actually the number expected wagons is based on a raw percentage of scum expect left multiplied by the number of players on the wagon. Actually I did adjust that for both the Oversoul and Andrew lynches down from where the numbers came in.
2. The Cop result isn't relevant. Scum are going to 'hop' on a Cop result to position themselves on the wagon when they know their partner is busted.
3. No, my VCA is based on 8 total scum. I expect that their is a Non-Mafia scumbag or two of some flavor out there.
4. Yes, making assessments and judgements that lead to a pool of suspects isn't Analysis at all

Any other incorrect points you want to lob my way?

[MagnaofIllusion]

This is exactly why a cop result skews things. You can't assume any sort of split when scum is 'busted'.

The same thing happened with Oversoul's fake-claim actually.

Actually you can. Unless you are in a lynch or lose scenario scum are going to place their votes in a way that spreads them around to generally conform to the relative population as a whole. It's human nature. Can scum specifically go out of their way to vote in a manner to fluster this kind of distribution? Yes its possible. But I don't think most scum players spend their time going "Hmmmm ... how can I vote to best screw with VCAs that may or may not happen".

This sort of VCA has worked and worked well many prior times. You don't buy it? Ok.

Then, presumably, you've factored this into your VCA, because those 1 or 2 non-mafia scumbags would not know who the other scum are, right? Therefore a predicted 50/50 split makes no sense.

Actually it does. That's the point. It isn't about coordinated behavior in general. It's about the psychology of people and their propensity to act in predictable manners.

You know exactly what my problems with your "analysis" are. You're not stupid enough to believe that this "raw data" has more meaning than, say, analysing the Vifam-Junpei wagon that popped up D1, or analysing the reasons people were voting or analysing the differences in votecounts from the same day, or like... you know... doing a real VCA.

If I wasn't extremely lazy, I'd do my own. But I am. So I won't.

Yeah I know your 'problems'. I just don't really care whether you have them or not. This has worked and will continue to work for me.

Regarding the Junpei-Vifam wagon? That's relational scum-hunting. If I wanted to do that I would.

Yes ... please continue to do nothing to actually hunt scum ... it's like you are Parama or a weak Parama clone.