The Children of Húrin Mafia (GREAT REVIVAL)

[MagnaofIllusion]

VOTE: Gut

After Invictus you should know better ....

[MagnaofIllusion]

Oh, so Gandalf began yet another LOTR themed game with a stupid “I’m Gandalf gambit”. Well at least reactions will be useful for getting reads.

Gandalf voters based on his ‘claim’ – Empking, Spyrex, Kayne, Furc, LC, Kats

Clearly if Gandalf is Town there is scum on this wagon. No doubt about it. I give more weight to scum likelihood under this scenario from those who actually played in Plum / Andy’s LOTR game (Spyrex, Kats).

As much as I’d like to vote Furc for being his normal terrible self I don’t see his reaction as scum-driven at this point. Much more like the flailing I saw in Stars Aligned 3. I am going to have to go back and read Bold and Beautiful Mafia 1 again to see what his Day 1 play looked like there before I solidly place him as “not scum”

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@ Magna I read invictus. What is it that make you lay down a serious vote?

Who says that is a serious vote, in that it was backed by intent to actually lynch?

@Ludi

– I’m very curious about your post 13. You were able to instantly cobble together that reaction post to Gandalf’s obv-fake claim in 9 minutes.

You didn’t play in Plum’s prior LOTR game. Why were you so tuned into Gandalf’s play and insistent he clarify if he was fake-claiming or not?

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Vote: Gandalf

Either scum, third party or anti-town.

Oh, so you’ve narrowed down his alignment to either scum, 3rd party or idiotic Town. Good work and an excellent reason for a vote.

--

Get yer votes off me I'm a magical princess.

PUT THEM WHERE THEY BELONG

Unvote, Vote: Gandalf

Page 4 lynch. Page 4 lynch.

I’m now sad … you drew scum this game didn’t you Spyrex? Playing with scum Spyrex is a chore (StarsAligned 3, Ooba's Game of Thrones recent large). But I think you probably did draw scum. Because Town Vig Spyrex saw this whole song and dance from Gandalf the last time and mis-vigged him. And Town Spyrex knows for sure that early lynches for lulz in Large Themes (aka Invictus) are terrible.

@GUT

– I’m completely sorry I bothered to jokingly scold you earlier.

UNVOTE: Gut
VOTE: Spyrex

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Why not an actual random vote?

How is Pere’s vote on Gut based on a user-name joke not a random vote? What is an actual random vote to you?

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Ok wow gandalf's claim is balls-to-the-wall.
Somehow, even though I KNOW this game is bastard, that seems to be a bit too STRETCHED. I think it'd be predictable for BastarD_Plum to give gandalf Gandalf, but mehhhh he wasn't in Silmarillion so ehhh.

You Co-Modded with Plum on LOTR so I don’t buy for a second the obv-fake claim from Gandalf didn’t cross your mind.

The “But he was using it to Breadcrumb in LOTR” doesn’t fly with his obv bold crumbing also.

On the other hand I see things in that post that read as Town Andy to me. And you didn't jump to vote Gandalf. So you are off the hook for the moment.

predit: Ok kanye has a good point that I missed. He's not town because town wouldn't claim a non-town wincon. Sorry about that. :S

No, because dumb, gambitting Town have done so in the past. I’ll direct you to the link from [REDACTED] when it ends.

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The first counterwagon that starts on someone voting gandalf, poke me. I'll be down for that.

POKE

– Come vote Spyrex.

[MagnaofIllusion]

What a surprise, MOI doesn't even bother reading.

What a surprise, Kats drops a pointless 1 liner and provides no content

I’ve read the thread … have you? Why don’t you actually do something for once and show me why you ‘think’ (using the term loosely for your purposes) I am not reading.

Not that I’m expecting more than a “NO U” response …

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I think this is a bad assumption. I think those people might feel MORE justified to vote me again, due to the WIFOM involved in me doing it twice in a row. And once again, i think the weird reaction from Andy is due to him realizing what my real role was and not wanting to reveal it. I'll let him speak for himself, but I think he was just trying to perpetuate the thing because he thought it was funny.

No it isn’t a bad assumption. It is spot on. Let me elaborate via theoretical example –

Player X has a history of making claims that he feels are important to Town early Day 1 (like Miller and Hated Townie). He also once claimed Miller as scum early Day 1.

In this theoretical example game I claim Miller immediately Day 1. What is the proper play to make? That answer is – to ignore it for purposes of scum-hunting. Being more likely to vote for Player X because he claimed Miller for the WIFOM is stupid.

In this case Gandalf has demonstrated in Large Theme games he has made stupid claims Day 1 immediately to ‘generate content’ and ‘breadcrumb’. Spyrex and Katsuki both have DIRECTLY seen this. The Town approach is not to vote for you because of WIFOM. It is to ignore the claim and focus on the other aspects of your play.

Yet Spyrex and Kats both jumped to “Luzl, Gandalf is scum”. So unless they are aligned with you and somehow know for a fact you are scum making a stupid gambit for the luzl there is no overriding reason for Town Spyrex or Town Kats to jump immediately on the Gandalf wagon and go “OBV SCUM LYN CH IT WITH FIRE”.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Unvote, Vote: Katsuki

So I poked you about the Spyrex scum counterwagon to Gandalf as you requested. Why ignore it?

Not that I disagree with the Kats vote but both Spyrex and Kayne are both more viable counterwagons. Do you think Kats is a stronger candidate for scum?

[MagnaofIllusion]

MoI, a random vote is that. Random. Peregrine did not randomly vote Gut, if he did, he wouldn't have made that horrible pun.

What's your point? No vote is truly random. Trying to ascribe any sort of scummy motivation for making a first vote based on a Username pun is in itself more scummy than whatever transgression you are trying to apply to Peregrine for that vote.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I don't either. No

flavor room

for TWO of us.

Also, gandalf, I considered doing what you did and trolling, but then I realized that

I'm most likely town via flavor.

Based on the bolded I can scratch what was my initial Andy Town read.

I’m very sad with Spy right now.
I think he'd TRY as scum though.
I don't really want to vote him though- something tells me that'd be a bad idea. Almost likes he wants to be lynched. Goddamn.

Ouch. Do you remember how much that fence post hurts to sit on?

Yeah, but this isn't Fate. This is gandalf.

Why do you think Fate is the only person who does stupid shit? And what relevance does Fate have given that Gandalf pulled this exact same stupid shit in THE GAME YOU CO-MODDED WHEN HE WAS TOWN?

--

Considering your response to my post is already a "NO U"...

A wild Lulz Troll appears ….
It uses “Stupid One Liner” ….
It’s not very effective ….

I would actually argue the opposite for Spyspy.

The Lulz Troll uses “Buddy like a Boss”
It’s still not very effective ….
The wild Lulz Troll was defeated.

At this point I’ll be happy to switch my vote to Kats instead of Spy as the probable scum on the Gandalf wagon.

In fact I think I will

UNVOTE: Spyrex
VOTE: Katsuki

Just like Lord of the Rings Mafia again. Scum Kats nailed Day 1. Good times … good times.

[MagnaofIllusion]

YES
I BUDDY SCUM
ALL DAY EVERY DAY

^This is analysis from MOI, pro scumhunter.

Lulz. Your deeply biting insult wounds me Kats.

I doubt very much that there are tons of scum on that wagon. This is a Large game and it certainly isn't a lynching wagon. So it is deciding which of the players there is scum. Yourself, Spyrex and Kayne currently are my top three suspects.

But continue to not address the fact that your reasons for calling Gandalf scum make absolutely no sense from a Town perspective given what you directly saw in LOTR Mafia.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Don't know about LOTR, but they make 100% sense given what I saw from SITMOA II, as I already said before.

But we already know that you're going out of your way to NOT read my posts.

I have no idea what SITMOA II is. Did Gandalf make an obviously stupid fake claim Early Day 1 there also? If not what is the point of you repeatedly bringing it up?

You don't know about LOTR? Whut? Trying to outright downplay the obvious parrallel between his behavior this game and that game? You can do better than that Kats. Well, maybe you can't but you could pretend!

[MagnaofIllusion]

lurking

Um, whut?

1. Thread has been open about 28 hours and you are saying someone is lurking?
2. Why aren't Dekes, VitaminR, Peregrine, Wraith, Chronopie, Sun and Moon and mockinjaye lurking scum? All have post counts equal to or less than LC. I'm really curious what sets them apart (especially those who have yet to actually post) and makes LC obv-scum.

[MagnaofIllusion]

To quote one of the Seraphs - "Mod Game is Broken - set-ups should have more than 1 player with a Town Wincon"

[MagnaofIllusion]

posting elsewhere.

hydras are excused due to quicktopics.

So you can be lurking while not even qualifying for a prod via game rules. But Hydras are exempt because they have QTs that no-one can see and thus know are actually being used. Not to mention you at least 2 people on my list qualify as posting elsewhere in the same time-frame.

I think I need to go lie down ... my brain is starting to hurt.

[MagnaofIllusion]

MOD – I’ll be V/LA from today at 4pm EST until Monday morning for my usual weekend family duries.

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Yes. Yes. I dunno didn't bother to check.

Well you should find lurking scummy since you tend to do so as scum yourself. I don’t necessarily agree with your stance on those issue but I’ll just wait for Chrono to become ‘obv-scum’ in other ways then.

Also please read Wraith’s ISO and tell me he isn’t a prime Lurkerscum candidate.

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MoI, this is a simple yes/no that I never thought I'd actually have to ask:

You're saying my play here somehow mimics my other play as scum?

No. I think your play here doesn’t make sense from a Town perspective given the things I know Town Spyrex has seen. Subtle but important difference.

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So much noise. Quick lynch someone dodging the game in hopes of not being noticed.

Yeah, but the fact remains there is probably one scum out of Lord Chronos or Chronopie who are dodging this thread and the craziness and hoping no one notices.

Oh so you want to quicklynch someone ‘dodging’ the game not open 48 hours? And ignoring the many other people I listed who were just as guilty to focus on only LC or Chrono? Scumtastic Ludi.

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Everything is already answered for you in my iso.

I don't know about LOTR because that game was a long time ago and I've forgotten about it. I love how you're trying to twist this into something scummy though.

No it isn’t. But I can see best case regardless of alignment you are going to be a useless, obstructionist prick. Noted.

And your response on LOTR is comical.

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Ugh i was hoping to save that debate. To put it simply kanye has every right to want a lynch on Gandalf, however he is using the complete wrong reasons. It is rather common for there to be non malicious third parties that can co-exhist with the town.

Well enlighten us on what the correct reason is. I’m not seeing it.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Yay a Kats wagon makes me happy!

[MagnaofIllusion]

Wraith, Sun and Moon, Chronopie and Dekes all pretty much are content free this game. At this point given I’d wager at least 1 scum is lurking there.

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Sorry, this is wrong. I looked for people with very low post count but had posted several times in other game, who had dodged posting in this thread for a day while posting else where.

Who did you list as just as guilty? And why would I want to utilize your list, whose alignment is unknown, instead of my own reasoning, which I know comes from town.

No, it isn’t wrong. You cannot logically and reasonably assert someone is lurking when they aren’t even due a prod.

Games have differing stages. This game is in the very early stages of the game. Other games may be at critical moments. As long as someone is posting at a rate that does not require prodding and is providing content I don’t see your attack as valid.

And I’m going to turn the question back on you Magister … why should I use your reasoning which comes from someone with unknown alignment instead of my own which I know is Town?

While I sort out gandalf's pseudo scum claim...

Fos: Chronopie

18 posts since last posting here, several of which coming today? For shame!

Hmmm … more activity hunting as your primary (really only) method of scum-hunting so far? Scum points again.

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YOU KEEP ASKING FOR WHAT SITMOA II HAS TO DO WITH GANDALF
FUCKING ISO POST #1
BUT OF COURSE YOU'D RATHER NOT READ, AND USE LIES TO FUEL MORE ATTACKS

I’ve read ISO 1. It says that SITMOA 2 shows non-harmful Gandalf third party play.

This in no way answers my question – why do you think Gandalf’s play there is more relevant to his alignment here than the LOTR game?

It was a simple question that you dodged. Thus I properly called you out on being obstructionist.

Just shut the fuck up, because you're always wrong. And there are more than enough games to back that up.
If you can't learn to keep insults out of your posts, why play mafia.
Basically
FUCK
YOU
FUCKING
POMPOUS
DOUCHEBAG

The irony here makes me chuckle.

The totality of post 366 is basically a tantrum saying “You caught me for bad reasons”

More Kats votes for great justice!

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If Katsuki faking a towntell of flailing and allcapsing
Does Katsuki do that as scum?

Yes. Vote him if you aren’t already.

I could see how this wagon on Katsuki goes, or vote Gandalf for the following reasons:

Kats is a good and righteous wagon on scum for scum play and you want to play “Lynch all Liars”?

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Sorry for confusing you.

You aren’t confusing me. I’m directly saying that I find it suspect that you are using source flavor alone as justification of alignment. Especially in a game labelled bastard.

Except he wasn't.

Oh he was. Several of us clearly called him obv-scum. And he killed me for it.

It was too bad we were busy lynching other obv-scum. Not enough lynches in that day that game.

Explain this.
Namely, where this is from.

I thought it was pretty self-explanatory. It is a joke meant to convey that the poster isn’t seeing ANY Town play from other players in thread and is frustrated.

I’m not at liberty to say where exactly it originated from currently.

LC isn't a lurker, he just posts REALLY infrequently. /OLYMPUS

Um LC was scum there. Hard to justify giving him a pass for infrequent posting when your source game shows it as scum behavior

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[MagnaofIllusion]

Hang on, I just realized something.

Didn't Turin Turambar get his memories wiped and romance his own sister at some point?

Great ... more flavor speculation.
WHO IS SCUM? Your ISO is basically Prod-dodging and this.

[MagnaofIllusion]

^disappointing

This little bit of fluff caused me to look at the Empking ISO and compare it to Empking Town in Jungle Republic and Empking Scum in [REDACTED] and A Song of Fire and Ice.

The results say “SCUM”.

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It's ok
Me doing nothing will always be more obvtown than you doing something.

No, because you doing nothing is playing to your scum meta.

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I feel like I need to post. However there really isn't much going on. Don't really feel like stirring the pot at the moment.

Ask me a question mister baker.

Ok, so Espeonage is scum. Lovely.

I get double bonus points if he is Investigation Immune scum of some sort baiting an investigation like Wolframhart’s game.

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]Just because its bastard doesn't mean it would go against good solid flavor.

This is why I find your flavor speculation so troublesome. Source flavor may not have ANYTHING to do with the source material or not. It is absolutely true that being a Bastard game may have nothing to do with alignments not equalling flavor. It may also be relevant. So continuing to discuss source flavor as if it absolutely dictates game alignment I find troublesome.

For example … everyone is assuming all the ‘major players’ will be in the game and Town (as far as I can tell .. not really flavor savy myself). Why isn’t it possible one of them is a fake-claim or contra-alignment designated this game. Until we get flips I’m assuming nothing (and even then will probably need someone to help sort out the “Yes, they make sense as Town” bit).

Ok, Magna, regardless of the fact that I'm failing in every attempt to prove myself, you DO understand my point, right?

Yes, you are clearly explaining your position. I just don’t necessarily ascribe to it at this juncture sans flips. Thus my comments.

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Well, Katsuki is town.

Is this based on the replace-out request? If so explain how scum don’t replace out under pressure.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Jungle Republic is not representive of my town play.

Lulz. You were Town in that game. Care to explain how it isn't representative again?

You pretty much instant pop-up when called out despite an ISO full of non-scumhunting and fluff does tell me that I'm probably right. Thanks for that!

[MagnaofIllusion]

Because I don't normally catch scum early while being essentially unlynchable.

Did you seroiusly type this?

1. You spent as much time going after Town (me) as you did scum (Andrew). And both were basically for OMGUS reasons.
2. The only reason you were not lynched is that you claimed Seer. You would have been the lynch Day 1 for certain if not.

Also ... while waiting for your response I looked over several other Town games ISOs of yours.

I still see Empking scum.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Or to put it in another way "I was essentially unlynchable"? You seem to be disagreeing just to disagree (Your first point is objectively a lie if anyone would bother to look. Was there even a player called "Andrew" in the game?)

Also,
Explain the logic here.
like I asked you to.

You are right. I meant Neil. I guess I got my hack players mixed up in my head since I've played with Andrew more recently. And my first point is clearly not objectively a lie. Would you like me to pull the myriad of quotes where you call me scum and vote for me there?

The logic is that you are scum skating by on fluff but popped up almost immediately to say "Hey, that's not my Town meta" when I called you out. Who has more reason to try to undermine a read that isn't even accompanied by a vote yet? Scum.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Dekes

– I notice you completely avoid any sort of MoI read in your ‘catch-up post’. I’d like you to commit to a read in your next one.

Feysal’s

498

is an exercise in fairly long paragraphs that say nothing at all about anyone actually being scum. His “breadcrumbing like Spyrex” is a Town tell is useless, he rides the fence on saying anything conclusive re Alignment about Furc and drops more pointless flavor spec. My vote stays.

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Vig List
1. Lord Chronos
2. Chronopie
3. gandalf
4. PeregrineV

This list lacks Espeonage, Empking, Dekes, Wraith, S&M (nice nickname ) and Feysal. I am sorely disappoint!

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Lurker lynches are awesome, and it's probably easier than going all casey on some big poster even if they're scummy etc. So someone not me.
Or we make vig list lynch list and then vig list vig list.

I agree, especially after Atomic Mafia.

Current people on my “Day 1 Lurker List” who I will vote for as needed are : Dekes, Choronopie, LC, Sun and Moon, mockingjaye, Wraith and maybe Vitamin R.

I think Katsu is town here. He wouldn't have replaced out as scum.

Um, why? He’s just come off a rather bad string of scum losses where he was killed fairly early. Getting significant heat Day 1 as scum, especially from little ol Me, is certainly something I could see causing scum him to throw up his hands in a tantrum.

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See above. Having played with Kats face-to-face, this is my intuition about it.

Meh, I don’t buy it. See dram’s latest Large Theme Atomic Mafia and look at DGB. She basically played to her ‘Town meta’ that was supported by ‘face-to-face’ interaction and replaced out under pressure. Tada what do you know … she was scum.

I can understand your stance but don’t buy it.

For the record – what do you think of Kat’s push on Gandalf in light of the LOTR Mafia meta that both Andy and I have repeatedly stated. Independant of your Town read based on Kat's reaction, that is.

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Oh please don't by calling it "a read" as if I'm trying to discredit a town read on another player.

I have a scum read on you based on your ISO and contributions. You immediately popped up immediately to say “No, you are wrong” while your contributions to actual scumhunting continue to be zero.

Trying to argue a Town game isn’t indicative of your Town play and that my read isn’t a ‘read’ isn’t doing anyting at all to change my perspective.

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If that's not going to happen I'm going to implore the wagons to consolidate against this Kat wagon. Be it gandalf, will of the wisp or LC.

All of those are far, far better choices.

I’ll have to look back but were either WoW or LC on the Gandalf lulz wagon? If so then don’t expect any support from me without more than “I’m a Princess” unless it is a lurker lynch in which case I might join LC.

But what do you think of Espeonage? He’s on that horrid Gandalf wagon, isn’t providing any content, and generally is scumtastic. Would you support that wagon?

What about Empking? Up for an Empking scum lynch?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Are you honestly saying that you think that as random game is representitive and that there are never any outliers and weird games?

No. Are you honestly saying that I shouldn't trust my own direct observations of your play as Town and scum when assessing you? How long are you going to continue to "Why me"?

[MagnaofIllusion]

She didn't replace out due to pressure.

The pressure you generate is far less than the irritation anyhow.

Justify it however you wish. She replaced out saying things like "What did I do to be suspected". She played scummy. I can't help that too many people are driven by "I like DGB, I'm not voting for her" as opposed to playing the actual game. In summary, I don't buy the explanation.

Funny despite the many irritating people I have to put up with I never replace out in a tanturm.

[MagnaofIllusion]

ITT Espionage is scum.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Feysal is still for the rope. His continues to focus completely on Flavor-penis waving with Furc as opposed to actually giving reads (hint … it’s fluff).

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Yes you shouldn't trust a one-off observation unconditionally as if it was the secret of the universe. I'll freely admit that that's what I'm saying.

Nice straw-man Empking. First off I’m not ‘trusting it unconditionally” as you put. It’s not like I’m pulling a Fate and screaming like a moron about how you are 1000% confirmed scum. I’ve simply generated a scum read and posted it for Town’s benefit. Secondly it’s not a ‘one-off’ as you incorrectly suggested … I’m basing this read on three separate observations of your play.

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Do you ever read me as town?

Oh look … the fail Kats / Fate “Why suck and never read me right” defense. I’ll have to hunt through my games where you were also a player to see. I know they aren’t many since you have spent a lot of time flaking recently.

But humor me … are you asserting that you are demonstrating traits that you showed in WRH's Mini game? Put it on the record!

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WoW was turbo Gan defense and on the Kayne wagon.

Um, so? I have attacked strongly the Gand wagon also and don’t have a Town read at all on KKB. I’ll certainly vote KKB on uselessness and the Gandalf wagon as needed. Yet you have a Town read on me apparently. I'm confused ...

Aside from that I've got very strong feelings about KKB, Furc and you. I've got decent feelings about Kat, Empking and PV. Elli is a gut read.

Everyone else? In the dross.

Meh. I don’t have any reason to see Kats or KKB as Town. Sorry, I have only so much room in my heart for players who specifically play useless when possibly Town and that space is currently occupied by my Ellie-Town read and a small bit of MoS maybe Town.

At least you agree that there is a whole bunch of Meh in this game then. I’ll not bother you while you brush your hair, at least for the moment.

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She stopped playing across the board. It's abundantly clear that she didn't replace out due to pressure in that game.

No, she didn’t, despite what her sig once said. A quick look at her threads would show this.

I remember why I dislike CES now ….

--

I am so sorry about this game. I'm going to fix it soon.

There has been a bit of miscommunication about who is going to be doing the posting... *sigh*

I see lots of shitwalls, though, and that makes me sad.

-Amrun

VOTE: Kanye

Done.

@MOD – Please make me a multi-shot Vig. Thank you!

[MagnaofIllusion]

But only one observation of my town play and (as I'm sure you're aware) you can't judge someone being scum just because they're playing in a similar fashion as they did in a scumgame.

Again, because you love to make statements that don’t necessarily apply –

1. Your posting this game does not resemble Jungle Republic Town Empking in several meaningful ways.
2. Your posting this game does resemble [REDACTED] and SOFAI Scum Empking in several meaningful ways.
3. Your ISO lacks any desernable scum-hunting and is loaded, as Wraith said, with excessive fluffy one-liners and ‘Why me’ posts.

These three elements together are sufficent for me to generate a Empking is scum read. All the nitpicking you are doing isn’t affecting any of these three elements.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Hands of Spyrex Wraith ... the princess only has eyes for me

[MagnaofIllusion]

kat (feysal) wagon is bs, kanye wagon is bs

Does bs in this case stand for Best Situation? If so I agree. Both your slots need rope.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Why aren't you on Kanye?

Because I don't have magical powers that allow me to vote two players at once. And I'm voting Feysal. Who you happen to be voting right now.

Why do you like asking pointless questions instead of scum-hunting?

[MagnaofIllusion]

It wasn't a pointless question. It ousted your OMGUSy tendancies. After all, I'm not asking for the leading wagon target to die while sitting on a smaller wagon.

How does the first part even make sense? I've yet to call anyone scum this game AFTER they called me such. That's what OGMUS is Empking ... you should know that by now.

Even if what you claimed there is true ... so what? Are you trying to say it is a scum-tell?

Finally please don't make me laugh regarding wagons. I'm voting for scum with 6 votes. Kayne has 7 (although the mod VC said 5 last I looked). You look to be trying to say that I am pushing a wagon with no viablity but that's clearly not the case.

Do you think Feysal is scum? If so why are you trying to say my vote shouldn't be on him? If not why are you voting for him?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Why this excuse? You know it now and you still didn't unvote.

Seems like you've got a preoccupation for covering your back to me

.

HAHAHAHHAHHHAHAHAHAHAH

I actually laughed out loud when I read the bolded Empking.

I could care less about your 'opinion'. I'm done trying to explain obvious things to you and having your continue to make laughable responses.

Go splash in the Kiddie Pool until the adults tell you it is time for a snack ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

Ok before I go to bed ready to jet off to the sandy shores of my resort at 6am I think it best I drop some knowledge on the playerbase.

I’ve been contacted with some information by the Powers that Be. At this point I can’t be certain which set is which but I’m strongly leaning in one direction.

Here is the information provided to me by Seraph1.

The Seraphs are Hurin and Morgath as players expect.

They generally operate in the open – all possible QTs created by the Seraphms are viewable by the opposing Seraph.

They have a wide variety of powers. They claim to be able to

1. Neighborize and Deneighborize with them.
2. Activate or deactive ‘Latent abilities’.
3. They also can give out ‘boons’ (not their words). I did not get a full list of boons but Seraph1 did specificy that there were several boons that were definitely scum oriented – Tailor, Ninja and Unprotectible (not able to be Doced). Per Seraph1 some boons will inform the target they have received them and some do not. This may be important later.
4. Finally the Seraphs have the ability to determine they actions of the opposing Seraph.

They also claim to be able to vote. Keep this in mind when placing someone at L-1.

The Seraph mechanics work differently than Vi’s version – they don’t have costs but they take turns taking actions. They trade off on a 36 hour schedule. This may be important for future coordination when deciding to hammer a player on a schedule to rob the Evil Seraph of their next action.

Seraph1 provided this rundown.

Seraph2 basically responded with “The cake is a lie” and said there was no Town reason to provide this information so early. I disagree with that, at least as much as Town knows that Tailor and Ninja powers may be about.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Oh, one last bit of information for the Playerbase from Seraph1...

Don't claim Town positive boons or activated abilities as they happen. Keep the mystery going.

However if you receive a negative effect or have an activated ability suddenly disappear that was Town positive claim it IMMEDIATELY.

That is all .... MoI Out!

[MagnaofIllusion]

Why aren't Andy & Gandalf activated then?

No clue. If I get more info I will give it (whenever I next get internet access).

[MagnaofIllusion]

I'd coordinate a bloc but without Magna here... :/

It seems I have very limited access this week. Don't expect lots of content from me but I can be around to vote in Block form as needed.

Who is in the suggested block again?

[MagnaofIllusion]

What exactly happened yesterday after I went on V/LA again? There were two rather viable lynches and suddenly in 5 pages Peregrine gets wagonned and lynched?

PeregrineV - 12 - Dekes, Feysal, Empking, SpyreX, Gut, kanyeknowsbest, Magister Ludi, VitaminR, Furcolow, Andrius, Espeonage, gandalf5166

Every single one of you on this wagon needs to explain in detail why you were voting for him.

In the meantime I'm going to re-read and look back to see who of you was scummiest BEFORE the terribad lynch ....

[MagnaofIllusion]

First things first –

Seaph1 is Mina / Faraday. I didn’t get the chance to make that clear due to my V/LA.

Mina and Faraday both have made posts in the QT. On the other hand only AGM has popped in to represent the other side.

--

Ok, reading back through my ISO I see the following info –

Gandalf voters based on his ‘claim’ – Empking, Spyrex, Kayne, Furc, LC, Kats / Feysal

That list has scum if Gandalf is Town.

Wraith, Sun and Moon, Chronopie and Dekes all pretty much are content free this game. At this point given I’d wager at least 1 scum is lurking there.

Chrono flipped Town Doctor so the pool is down to 3.

ISO 15 – Empking is scum, Espeonge is scum.

Current people on my “Day 1 Lurker List” who I will vote for as needed are : Dekes, Choronopie, LC, Sun and Moon, mockingjaye, Wraith and maybe Vitamin R.

ISO 26 – Both Kayne and Feysal need rope.

--

Now observations from my last content post til the end of Day 1 –

Why is this so important to you? You were in the non-readable-yet pool, along with a lot of other people. You have a little too many scum suspects for my taste and you seem to be a bit pushier than usual (and by pushier I mean, you try to push several persons on a certain wagon at times).

It’s important to me because my history with Scum-Dekes tells me he would avoid provoking me. It’s part of getting a read on you.

I'll try to get a couple of posts in until then, but no promises.

But this Pere wagon makes me feel good inside. Need to take a look at the voters, but for now I'll join anyway.

Unvote; Vote: PeregrineV

Ok Dekes is scum? Why you ask? Because HE WAS ALREADY VOTING PERE WHEN HE POSTED THIS.

Hard to believe he suddenly was convinced Pere was scum by the Feysal case when he supposedly already had a scum read on Pere and was voting him.

Scumtastic.

--

"I will look at the out-of-ordinary game but ignore the more representitive game we played together in order to call you scum." is not a method.

Lulz. What other more-representative game are you discussing here? If I missed a Town game with Empking in my quick review of my history please indicate what it is.

I wouldn't be surprised to find out that MOI just made up his post. I know I'm far from calling him confirmed town.

Nevermind, you are still scum. Because this is the most absurd concept ever. Yup, I just made up that post when the Town Seraph could get information to that effect to someone.

What also cements you as scum is the fact that you didn’t make the logical leap that Town would have -- that I could be scum who already is in contact with the scum Seraphs and was trying to pass that off as Town Seraph information.

Don’t worry about it … there are now other players who can confirm that I’m in the QT.

--

This game has slowed down. Can we get this lynch done please?

Well finding on of the lurker-scum is accomplished. Look at his ISO before this post. He has NO actual scum-hunting content, yet is complaining the game was slowing down.

--

TOWN SERAPH:
Faramina

MORGOTH:
AGM et.al.

Um how exactly did you come by this assessment?

Actually, I can see that happening. Hadn't thought that he could fake it, but its an interesting insight.

In light of my response to Empking above I’d like your thoughts on why I would do that given the high risk, zero reward nature of that play.

You
Ludi
Myself
gandalf
mjaye
MoS
Elli
Furco

Pending your responses to the above I find this list very acceptable.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Feysal - The Seraph QT is requesting that you claim your Rolename, Alignment, and Night-action from N1 in your next post.

[MagnaofIllusion]

LynchMePlease's game.

I also wouldn't say there was anything that would make town think scum Seraph's had an ability to make people remember.

I don't remember you there at all. Going to look now.

Also ... nice dodge on responding about your scummy "he made it up" statement. Cudos.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Do you have a QT with BOTH seraphs? Or just one side?

Both sides have access to the QT, as stated previously.

@Gandalf –

when did your role reveal occur?

@Andy

– do you have a role now?

--

Ok so seriously. What was with the turnaround yesterday?

It was scum-driven. How many of your partners were on the wagon?

--

Probably Cult, SK, Mafia, or a 3rd Party due to Plum having to delay the game in order to let Herodotus submit an action.

Um, no. Good moderating is to extend Night for all replacements regardless of role.

Scum-points to you Will for pushing this theory.

--

I haven't finished reading, but I can't imagine myself voting for anyone other than VitaminR.

VOTE: VitaminR

Reasons are tech ….

--

This is who I think the scum are (for the moment). Wait, I'm going to modify this a little

Dekes, Feysal, Empking, SpyreX, Gut, kanyeknowsbest, Magister Ludi, VitaminR, Furcolow, Andrius

Town
Lurkers or Semi-Lurkers
Possible Scum
Obvscum
Idiots

So on a 10 person wagon you think 5 (or 50%) are obv-scum or possible scum?

--

LynchMePlease's game.

I looked at that game. I don’t see significant parallels there to your play here. Not surprising since you are scum.

--

However, I, for one, don't feel bad about the events of yesterday

Spy you should be. Are you scum?

MoI makes many dashing good points but none better than:

Why didn’t you vote Dekes then?

I’ll lead the way … subject to change based on Feysal’s claim and whatever that results in from the QT in response.

VOTE: Dekes

--

MAGNA, can you be useful and join the VitRwagon?

Just my mere presence means I’m more useful than your slot ever will be.

I’d ask you for reasons why I should join said wagon … but we both know that would be pointless.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Pretty sure your "mere presence" discourages posting.

Funny but I believe just the opposite. I think lame All Capsing / Spamming by Katsuki and his ilk does more to discourage posting and gameplay than anything I do.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Do we have to do this again? WHY? You can't read me. I know this, you know this. Stop just thinking I'm scum for no real reason when you know this.

Serious question - is there anyone who can read you? I ask because CES and I are on pretty much opposite spectrums of the Mafiascum rainbow. You gave me very similar reasons in Invictus when I suspected you.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Andy ... you have questions waiting for you. Please answer them.

Also ... how do you know both Feysal and Furc are fake-claiming?

[MagnaofIllusion]

I have some information to impart from on high after Sir Breadcrumb actually gets off his duff and answers questions ...

Stay tuned ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

Andy for the moment that I think answers my questions -

Please confirm one last bit ...

Are you still a Blank slate and non-roled?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Dropping more knowledge now

…

First let me talk about why I have formed the Town Seraph read on Mina / Faraday and the Scum Seraph read on AGM / Thor.

I got the message from Plum saying “Hey, something happened … come here” with a QT link.

That took me to Quicktopic that is apparently the second iteration. The rules as best I can discern are as follows.

Hurin and Morgoth share a QT. Mina has indicated AGM did a bit of trash talking in the previous edition. Apparently when the first person is Neighborized to the Seraphs and new QT is started. Whenever someone is De-Neighborized (or dies I am assuming) the previus QT is locked and new one is formed.

So back to the topic … as soon as I got there I was greeted by Faraday basically posting a good deal of the info I first shared along with a request to wait form Mina before taking any action or posting in QT (since my identity would be unknown to AGM / Thor at that stage).

AGM then shows up and effectively says “Ignore what you saw … they are trying to trick you … there is no reason to Neighborize this early”. Faraday responded and then Mina dropped a whole bunch more knowledge and theories my way.

BTW – Seraphs can vote, but the votes are more ceremonial and do not count. This was clarified while I was on V/LA

After Mina makes several LONG posts AGM responds with a long post basically saying “There is no Pro-Town reason for you to be hear so early, they are doing it to fool you, we have tons of USEFUL powers”.

Next we fast-forward to when I get back from my blissful vacation.

Mina has questions about why I didn’t immediately give their identity in thread after I dropped the knowledge. We’ve had some back and forth about reads (very minor stuff … I was still getting reconnected after being away for over a week).

So … why do I think AGM / Thor is Morgoth

–

Mina and Faraday have been very helpful and Proactive in providing me information. That in itself isn’t an absolute slam-dunk. In fact one of the reasons why it did take me some time to solidify my reads is that I know Faraday has a propensity to buddy me as scum (you do bud ) and Mina hates my guts. So their choice of me wasn’t sure-fire Town.

What sold me was AGM’s play (I only mention him since Thor isn’t in the QT at all). When questioned he has not said anything that Mina / Faraday have said about the mechanics is incorrect. All he’s done is say “Hey, no reason for you to be hear”. So I don't think his "They are trying to fool you" stance makes much sense when they apparently aren't actually lying about anything.

If AGM truly thought Mina and Faraday were trying to decive me about the game he would be pointing out the information they were saying that were lies. The only thing he’s said is a lie is their claim of Town Seraph.

Secondly his constant refrain of “No reason to be here” rings hollow. Mina and Faraday spent a turn action to bring me in. Even if AGM is right that there is no reason early on for me to be there … BAM … there I am free to AGM’s disposal to give out information as necessary. It’s like a free Xmas gift … he has me as a conduit for any information he wanted. And he does NOTHING with it. I’m not asking for reads … hell … he could have me asking questions and pointing stuff out without giving me squat about his and Thor’s abilities if he wanted. That’s why I think his stance isn’t truthful.

[MagnaofIllusion]

One last tidbit

– Mina also indicates at least one other player has access to the QT. Mina has requested they keep themselves hidden in QT / thread since I have already outed myself.

--

Ok .. back to current events –

@Andy

– Mina wanted to know exactly you thought she / Faraday were Seraph1 when I didn’t give out their names. I’ll wait to see what she says about your answer.

I will say that it troubles me that the slam-dunk for you on it was AGM saying “The cake is a lie”. That’s because he didn’t actually say those words … I used that catch-phrase myself to summarize the “Don’t believe the hype” message he was going on about in a few words when it has been paragraphs.

@Furc

– Mina wants to know why you claimed Feysal targeted you before he actually claimed.

Faraday and Mina say Gandalf is a big fat lying scum. Both Seraphs say that neither one activated Gandalf’s role. Faraday states that Seraphs DO NOT get to use actions overnight (and AGM has not disputed this). I did have a question as to whether it might be Bastard Game non-Seraph effected but have no response on that end.

AGM says that awesome is about to happen in the next 12 to 36 hours (whenever he gets control of the next turn cycle).

On a lighter note Faraday has the following information to pass along.

He wanted me to tell Gut and VitaminR he loves Reflexive CPR Doc claims. He also claims to be able to read VitaminR (and everyone else too).

He also wants to tell CES to stop using so many smilies as it is unbecoming of a scummer of his stature.

Ok … back to in thread land.

[MagnaofIllusion]

In case anyone had doubts, faradays comment about Reflexive CPR Doc's basically confirms that MoI is in communication with the seraphs. MoI can you ask them why they chose you to communicate with?

Well they read the thread so you really already did that. I'll look over the QT to see if anything was said earlier.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Feysal – At this juncture you need to claim your full win condition.

--

i have to make sure feysal does something

Dollars to donuts it is “Have Feysal kill Thurin (or whatever the main person’s name is)” if Furc isn’t bullshitting.

Thinking about it a Feysal flip of Mafia not third party means Furc is pulling a weak ‘partner defense’ gambit.

--

MoI, two things. When have you read me as town? And why am I scum?

Filtering out games where I was scum and had no reason to actually try to read you correctly?

Zang’s Mini Normal comes to mind where I eventually twigged to your play as Town. Granted there aren’t that many games because your flicker history didn’t provide me many chances that I remember.

You are scum because you got a scum role PM. Duh.

Ok, in seriousness I see strong parallels between your play here and WRH’s Mini Normal. I’ve said this before. And I properly pegged you as scum there.

This question “Why am I scum” follows along quite nicely with your play there, BTW.

--

Keeping an SK on a leash is always a good idea, so long as they stay on the leash.

Actually no. Battle for Olympus should have taught you that. Killing off a proven SK reduces the number of non-Town directed NKs. Yes, I understand the theory that said SK has to shoot scum or they die. Remember .. .more time for Dayplay is better for Town.

--

Who said anything about "suddenly convinced"? A quick glance through my ISO would tell you a) that I was very likely the first to attack PeregrineV and b) that I was not that into the game due to a busy real life. That vote was simply reaffirming my suspicion and I probably thought that I had unvoted in one of my prod dodging posts.

Yes, you were the first to attack Peregrine. That’s why your post stood out to me in Glowing Neon Letters saying “Scum”! Let’s examine your voting post again …

What do you think of Pere, WoW?

So far, you've only attacked his random vote and that's it.

Why would speed wagoning Pere being considered a safe vote and appear less scummy than voting Feysal or Kanye at this point?

So yeah, I really don't wanna replace out of this game. But I'm still busy as hell with looking for an apartment. So instead I'm gonna take a

V/LA through Monday

I'll try to get a couple of posts in until then, but no promises.

But this Pere wagon makes me feel good inside. Need to take a look at the voters, but for now I'll join anyway.

Unvote; Vote: PeregrineV

This is the post in its entirety but what really stood out to me is the bolded.

I see your explanation that you are not really interested in the game and that you thought you had unvoted. I don’t really think so.

The bolded isn’t a person with a strong conviction returning to a strong previous suspect IMO. The phrase “for now” doesn’t ring true in that case. The phrase as a whole reads as “Well, let me slide on the wagon while leaving myself the trapdoor to exit” (via ‘looking at the voters”). Subtle I understand but telling for me.

The way you're treating those people who should be on your short scum list differently based on how they view you is disturbing. Especially SpyreX comes here to mind who's way sheepier than I've ever seen him and apart from role playing has been solely reactive the whole game. And he was on both the early gandalf and the final Pere wagon. And yet you're giving him a pass on giving reasons for the Pere vote and can only muster a half-assed dig at him. You need your sheep this game or are you actually trying to read those people, too?

This whole paragraph is an exercise in undermining. Much better than your old reaction to pressure (angry OMGUS … Lost Season 1 vintage) but very reminicient of how you reacted in Battle for Olympus. You don’t outright come out and call me scum but lay the groundwork for later with phrases like “is disturbing” and “You need your sheep” (indicating I’m not really looking for reads).

This paragraph is also at odds with earlier statements from you. Before I had “too many scumreads” for your taste but this seems to indicate I’m not finding enough people properly scummy. Those are on some level contradictory. Either that or I am just finding the wrong people scummy.

Question - where did I EVER say I had a Spyrex Town read?

I'll bite on what the Seraphs gaves us

Here’s a question – where did I ever indicate the Seraphs gave me any direct information that Feysal was scum? I simply said they wanted Feysal to claim. I have yet to state if anything he said didn’t pass muster ( I don’t know for certain yet myself).

--

Magna, I can't remember if you clarified, but are all people "activated" at once or is it individually?

As I understand they are individually activated (and they apparently can be deactivated).

No comment from this head about the criticism your slot is getting for your scummy "He's scum" start of Day post?

[MagnaofIllusion]

In case anyone had doubts, faradays comment about Reflexive CPR Doc's basically confirms that MoI is in communication with the seraphs. MoI can you ask them why they chose you to communicate with?

Summarized short answer -

1. Faraday says I'm painfully Town. Mina think's that's a big overstatement but Faraday charmed her with his natural charisma.
2. Mina knew I had extensive game-play experience with all four Seraphs and thus had a good chance to read them.
3. I'm not a complete moron so they trusted I would give out information in a wise manner. (So much for that, huh LB )

[MagnaofIllusion]

@MoI: By that logic, vigs should never shoot.

Um, no. If you don't understand the difference between Town wincon controlled kills and Non-Town wincon controlled kills then I can't help you.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Ok .. that was probably a little too snarky. Let me elaborate.

Leashed Serial Killers are never a good idea. Why? They have no long term motivation to actually help Town. Their goal is to survive long enough to achieve their wincondition which does not mesh with Town. So unlike a Town vig they do not have pure motivations. The question becomes … how do you ‘leash’ them. Town’s only threat is basically the promise of a lynch if they do not shoot ‘approved targets’. Since the targets are public the Mafia have full disclosure and can choose to interfere or not (via roleblock / redirect / whatever they have at their disposal). Thus you are certain of having dead Townies when Town directs poorly but no guarantee of dead Mafia when they choose wisely. This situation doesn’t aid Town.

Look at Battle for Olympus as a perfect example. When Gemini was outed as a Serial Killer they promised to shoot as Town directed. What happened instead? We lynched her and halved the number of Non-Town kills. This extended the game allowing Town more time to sort through the jumble of poorly playing Townies (Chesskid / Nacho) and have time to lynch the Hated Townie pre-LYLO.

Without killing Gemini town probably didn’t have time to survive that many mislynches.

The only time you don’t lynch an outed Serial Killer is when you have a guaranteed scum lynch that same day or it is LYLO and lynching a Serial Killer gives scum the win (in which case Town is screwed anyway).

--

I hope Feysal is town
his claim was shitty, though

Ok, I know I am going to kick myself for asking but – WTF? You’ve already said that you KNEW he wasn’t a Town Vig. And then he directly claimed 3rd party. And you say this?

--

Ok … if there is any other information out there that would indicate a better target (aka Mafia) for lynch it needs to come out soon. Otherwise I really don’t see letting Feysal live with his claim as it is.

[MagnaofIllusion]

That's my point. Feysal looks like he's cooperating with town. We direct him, if he doesn't cooperate then we lynch him. And had you left Gemini alive, she could have killed Nacho for you, lowering the number of days you needed to do the same thing. And yeah, they're likely to only end up killing town, but they're killing town that you were going to lynch anyways.

If we had left Gemini alive we probably would have lynched Town anyway so you were trading a SK life for a Town life. That accelerates the speed by which endgame would be reached. Granted there are MANY variables that make forecasting difficult.

I don't leave claimed Serial Killers alive unless you have a guarenteed scum lynch in their place. If you can provide me with one Gandalf I'm happy to listen. Otherwise we are probably done in this round and round.

BTW - Why did you only remember that little detail after both Seraphs said they didn't activate you?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Also, I was kinda right with my Kats read.

This reminds me - to those who said "Kats replace-out is a town tell" - I have one thing to say

[MagnaofIllusion]

This is important.

Setting aside question about why you think it is important ... no way to know for certain what Plum is doing this game.

In the previous LOTR large theme she ran (with Andy) each character with a kill had their own unique kill flavor. Not sure what else she has done.

In the end it is Mod Meta you are relying on and not necessarily dependable.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Ok so Amrun is posting all over the site like it is going out of style.

Meanwhile we get nothing from S&M.

S&M are also lurker scum. Adjust your lynch lists accordingly.

[MagnaofIllusion]

But Feysal lynch first?

Once we see that there are no more "Hey, Player Y is scum" posts and Mina / Faraday check in with their thoughts (timing might be an issue .. remember they operate on a 36 flipped cycle) I think we can assemble the block and make Feysal all dead.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Dekes and Wraith look like townies based on their posting prior to the Pere wagon.

Please elaborate ... especially in regards to Dekes.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Spyrex

- Your Quillsman is going to have to work harder to convince me to not lynch Feysal who has claimed a kill-list of likely Town on the off chance he isn't a Full Fledged Serial Killer who tried to grab "Town Vig" cred killing Furc and had it backfire when Furc outed he wasn't Town.

Game-state or no game-state. Sorry ... I'm hardwired to lynch claimed SK roles on site. 4+ years of Mafia gameplay has taught me this.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I need to dig up the "Slap a Lannister" jpg from Battle of Olympus and put it to work on Gandalf.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I disagree. It looks like he just forgot where his vote was, which isn't scummy.

Minor FoS: Spyrex for agreeing. Furcolow and Magna don't get FoS's, but they burned some credibility.

Well I think this may fall in the 'Reasonable men may disagree' category altough I have my doubts about you.

Why would you say I 'burned some crediblity'? You just recently epicly fence-sat on me saying, in effect, "MoI is scum right? Or maybe not. Can't tell". How would I have any significant credibility in your eyes if you had suspicions I was scum.

Does Not Compute.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@MOD – I’ll be V/LA from today at 4pm EST until Monday AM for my usual weekend family duties

[MagnaofIllusion]

Like Gandalf mentioned, I was a serial killer in Wizards at the Sorcerers' Den.

Feysal ... just a quick question - Didn't those games have a point system that rewarded goals and made it possible for mutliple factions to win?

If so I'm not going to bother with addressing your argument since it really doesn't apply to the standard Serial Killer wincon in games. And I have to consider you a Serial Killer who thought he was busted by the Seraphs and made a "Hey, I'm a quasi-friendly 3rd Party role" claim to stall for time.

Of course you may not be lying. I can't know but it would be against Town's best interest (and my Wincon) to not assume the worst and work from there.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Ok back Doesn't seem like much happened.

If somehow enough of you don't want to lynch Feysal Esp HAS to be on the short-list (or hung today).

@EVERYONE

- Also to let you know ... AGM has basically just claimed Scum Seraph in QT by asking for a Modkill on Mina / Faraday (yes, it was in a humerous fashion). But the post leaves little room for doubt that he has just accepted his fate.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Wrong. Even if he is lying, he's going to be behaving as if he weren't, which means there's no reason not to leave him alive.

Gandalf ... you aren't changing my mind on a Game-play theory point. Especially with your ever convincing arguements

[MagnaofIllusion]

Our goal now is to find who Feysal needs to be killing. Perhaps the Seraphs could help me out.

Well given that Feysal admits most of his list is probably Town I expect you might get some help from AGM / Thor.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Congrats Spyrex!

Little princesses enrich your life … trust me on this.

--

MoI, does anyone other than you and the seraphs have QT access right now?

I’m putting this up front so everyone who didn’t catch my multiple statements can do so.

At least 1 player other than me has access to the QT. Mina / Faraday requested they remain anonymous so that AGM / Thor would have to waste a move to discover said identity.

--

I bet this is happening right now:
Thor is MIA

How did you draw this particular conclusion?

--

(I expect it's the type of oddity that passes for a scumtell in the MS community. I'm not sure whether it is one, but if it gets scum lynched...)

This makes my scum-dar ding and I can’t quite put my finger on why.

@Manga: Are you guaranteed that the people posting in the QT are who they say they are? I know this is paranoid to ask, but can you confirm that it isn't possible that faraday/mina are faking AGM's posts?

All three are posting from Registered accounts (which Quicktopic differentiates from unregistered accounts with a star next to the account name). Furthermore AGM’s account is consistent with the registered account he uses in other QTs, including those he created himself.

So the only way it is being ‘forged’ is if Mina and / or Faraday have access to AGM’s registered QT account.

Regarding gandalf, it's not clear whether the seraphs have the ability to restore a character's memory... if they don't, then surely they wouldn't assume gandalf is lying, as there would have to be some such mechanism, and if they do, it seems like that would have been an early priority.

The question that Minaday seems to have so far is not related to their ability to restore but whether Gandalf’s claim was faked in the first place and he had his role all along.

@Magna: you want guaranteed scum?
Then vote for VitaminR.

You have a Cop guilty on him? If not then your case on him hasn’t compelled me so far. Could you restate it so that I can review it?

According to data on past games, Serial Killers improve town win rates. Feysal is at worst a SK, and more likely is what he claims.

Can you back up this statement with a link to said data?

--

What reason does he have not to? There is no way we can confirm his information...even if he does have contact with the Seraphs, it's hella easy to just feed us some verifiable truths and then lie through his teeth about other things. I'm taking it with a grain of salt, especially since the existence of the Seraphs have absolutely no relevance to me right now. I can't kill them, so I don't really care which ones are on which side. Talking about Seraph alignment is just a really good way to avoid talking about something that truly matters, like which of the people we can actually lynch might be scum.

Again … what reason do I have to make up anything. If I did either Seraph could easily invite someone else into the QT who could directly refute my statements. This is once again either stupid or scummy paranoia.

Are you scum again MoS? I know I don't think you are stupid.

Also – I don’t see much from you in the way of scum-reads. Why don’t you give us three or four suspects with reasoning for each.

[MagnaofIllusion]

For those of you who haven't played with me, I primarily scumhunt by associations - who attacks whom at what point of time, who do you suspect and who you actually vote at any given point. On a secondary level, I also look at tone intensity duration when you switch of an attack to spot if it might be scum bussing each other.
Expect my post to be small and reason-light; I'll elaborate only if I feel the need to; If there is nothing there, then it is due to associations with other reads.

See I'm going to have to go back to Battle for Olympus to look at your Day 1 posting there and see if it lines up with this post.

I'll be very curious how your reads list changes day to day since basically all your 'scum' are driven off your Town reads (which I don't see as very accurate ATM).

But please elaborate on you Sun and Moon Town read when they have posted nothing as far as content goes and both heads (Amrun and CSL) are active elsewhere on site.

[MagnaofIllusion]

But ooba probably IS town for his posting in general today and his putting us on the townlist when there is no real reason to put us there.

Ooba is oozing town in my opinion. Please continue.

This always makes me shake my head. You both give ooba a Town read based on placing you an a Town list when you don’t deserve to be there? That’s a classic scum play from a stronger player … buddy up to lurkers / those under fire to win you over for later.

Not that I have a scum reads on ooba’s slot currently but the principle remains valid …

--

Whichever Seraph gives me the best powers will win me over for their side

Congratulatons … you’ve earned a lynch / arrow through the eye well before LYLO!

--

How do we know the Seraphs could do that?

Oh wait, cuz you told us they could. -.-

Oh, so you think there is any likelihood that the Seraphs don’t have a means to actively contact Town? Please explain to me why you would think that.

I feel like you're just distracting us away from actually lynching scum at this point, whether or not you intend to.

Actually … that’s exactly what you are doing. You’ve parked your vote on Feysal (which isn’t a bad thing) and pretty much done no significant scum-hunting outside of him today.

You talked about Jester policy and diverted into this little sidebar about the Seraphs.

--

Look above for S&M reasoning. (It is further proof of town alignment if they post elsewhere on the site while totally ignoring this game)
Also, I am very confident on town. reads this game.

Disagree but at this point we are in a game theory discussion so I’m going to leave it alone.

I’ve also seen other games recently where you were confident of your reads – Atomic and BTTF. Not exactly something that makes me confident when I see you state that.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Well if we aren’t killing Feysal I’m laying down two lists. Any shots outside this group result in me begging Minaday for a Daykill tomorrow morning –

Actively scummy

– Dekes, Espeonage, Empking

Lurkers / Active lurkers

– Wraith, Sun and Moon

--

I have no idea what the Seraphs can do.

Did you not play in / read / research any of the other games with the Seraph mechanic (Vi’s MoHo games)?

Wait, so basically you're blaming me for responding to the people who have endlessly asked me questions regarding these two topics?

No, I’m blaming you for going out of your way to make non-scumhunting avenues of discussion as opposed to scum-hunting. You were the one who broached the paranioa “maybe MoI is making it all up” line of discussion.

Meanwhile once again you’ve done no significant scum-hunting today. Outside Feysal I have no idea who you suspect.

--

Please don't assume I said Ooba was town because he placed me on a town list. I can't think his other posts today are town? Odd that you zeroed in one that (for me at least). That being said, him placing us on his town list certainly didn't hurt my town read on him.

Well given you didn’t elaborate at all as to why you found him Town you sort of did leave the door open for speculation.

--

Interesting that you find that more plausible than us being scum.

Not this … this is a point against VitaminR that speaks to me. Questioning if chamber is even a part of the hydra as opposed to the fact that Gut might be scum doesn’t seem a Town driven perspective.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Did you not play in / read / research the signup thread for this game?

Ok, so not willing to answer the question and attempt to deflect noted. Why is that?

Were you or were you not aware of how Seraphs have operated in the past games?

It's not going out of my way to say things that need to be brought up. That doesn't mean I want to spend all my time in this game arguing about them. Persistence is the problem here, and that wasn't remotely my fault. Unless you're suggesting that I should have simply ignored the questions being directed at me so you could attack me for doing so?

The huge issue I have is that you aren’t bringing up / discussing anything that is remotely scum-hunting related. Jester talk is all game theory and your “I don’t think we should trust MoI’s info” is at worst pointless fluff (since you can’t provide a reasonable reason why I’d stand to gain anything by doing so) and at worst scum seeking to undermine the information coming into thread.

Me neither, obviously, or I would have said something by now.

Not buying it. Lack of scum-hunting is 100% due to you.

Into the scum-pool with you MoS ....

[MagnaofIllusion]

Sun and Moon is a stupid wagon and those of you on it need to find the real scum. Or slip up yourselves, because these lurkerwagons have been OBVIOUSLY SCUMDRIVEN.

Who is scum then? Instead of posting this empty little "Don't hurt lurkers" fluff why don't you show WHO you think is the scum driving the wagons.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Quick update ... AGM claims his awesome powers are about to be shown. He claims it doesn't involve me.

Waits with baited breath ...

More later ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Wraith

– Your unwillingness to actually back your statements with actual opinions of who is scum means you go from the lurker pile to the actively scummy pile for players I think Feysal should shoot. Good work!

--

Moi, I'm actually really surprised you aren't leading the hounds of hell onto me this game -.- (Magicians etc.)

Honestly after Atomic Mafia you got a bit of slack in the “Elli is playing useless and thus scum” department in my book. And furthermore if you were scum I would probably already be dead since you hate my walls. Thus I’m content ‘for the moment’ with your early play.

Now if your game doesn’t step up going forward like it did in Atomic …

--

Not sure how Atomic Mafia was a lurkerhunt win at all, though, Ellibereth. Flash Mafia I'll give you, though.

I think Elli's response was sufficent. We didn't necessarily go lurker hunting but 5/10 scum were on my lurker list when DGB-scum went after Tajo (who I don't recall was scum or not) for lurking.

--

I *did* answer the question. I didn't deflect at all.

No, answering the question actually entails saying “Yes, I did or no I did not have any experience / research how Seraphs worked in MoHO, etc.”.

What you did was be Katsuki like. Great work …

At this point I’m going to assume your stance doesn’t flow from ignorance. Thus it is scummy.

1) Why do you think game theory is unimportant? Game theory is the very thing that drives logical mafia play, and it's an integral part of the game. It's ridiculous that you would try to say we should ignore game theory or that discussing it is scummy. Talking about game theory in a way that does not apply to your reads is scummy. Game theory itself is not inherently scummy. The possibility that gandalf was a jester has actually implications on how I read him and handled that situation. If I didn't think he was a jester, I would have tried to lynch him. My comments regarding the jester business went directly to explaining why I was not voting him and did not think he was a good lynch.

Game theory talk is absolutely fluff. Sorry, it is. You should be discussing why particular players are scummy for their actions, not arguing whether handling Gandalf in the manner you did is justified based on your take on Jester handling Game Theory.

Fact

– in a large theme the odds of a Jester ending the game are pretty much non-existant. (See Box Mafia for a recent example). So Jester speculation in the context of a Non-game ending Jester is pointless. If someone plays scummy you lynch them. Even if they are a Jester they aren’t going to help catch scum and lynching them prevents their hanging around to be a willing mislynch in LYLO. Vigging works to but specifically singling Gandalf out to not be hung but vigged was an exercise in non-Town helpfulness.

2) How do you not understand what a person stands to gain by having everyone sheep the hell out of them all game? God, I wish IS was here so he could talk some sense into you people.

This is basically fear-mongering. No-one is even sheeping me as evidenced by the general unwillingness to hang Feysal. All I am doing is providing information for Town to use.

What, you expect me to make something up to please you? Lawl.

No Mr. Bond I expect you to die … [/off movie quote]

Seriously if you were Town you’d be scum-hunting (or should be). All you are doing is basically active lurking. Please continue to do so as it will making hanging you in the coming days much easier.

--

@MoI: Which players do the Seraphs think are scum? If they aren't giving reads, make them. Presumably there is cause from them to hide town reads, but not scum ones.

None have been posted so far by either Seraph. I’ve put your request into the QT so they both can see it and respond as they choose.

--

I hope it involves me getting

a dayvig

dayvigged

FTFY, or the more likely outcome …

[MagnaofIllusion]

MOD – I’ll be V/LA as usual from 4pm EST today until Monday AM EST for weekend family duties.

--

So Faraday has weighed in with the following scum reads (his own, I’m guessing) –

VitaminR – Based more or less on gut.
Kayne – He says Kayne’s play regarding attacking Gandalf claimed third party is very similar to what scum-MoS did in Mafiascum Camp Mafia. Also Kayne has been pretty much useless.
Empking – Faraday feels his pointless questioning is even more pointless than normal
Spyrex – Weakest of the reads. Faraday says he it was strong up until 578 but that particular post weakened his read.

--

In re-reading I don’t particularly like 1106 from Gut, as it serves as an unspoken case on VitaminR.

1. Chamber says cases are scummy and he recently (Box Office Mafia) says he should be lynched on site for posting one. Yes, I know Chamber is only have the hydra ….
2. I don’t remember ever posting like this in the past at length.

--

Since Dekes is about to be flake-replaced I’m moving my vote to Kayne.

He was on both the early Day 1 Gandalf flash wagon that I think has scum, he was part of the HerpaDerp deadline lynch on Peregrine and his play frankly is useless (which isn’t saying much this game). Plus Faraday supports him as scum and his wagon currently doesn’t have any of my personal Scum reads.

UNVOTE: Dekes
VOTE: Kayne

[MagnaofIllusion]

@MoI: I'm going to elaborate on my anti-lurkerlynch stance here and tie it in with a kanye lynch. Now I am vehemenently opposed to a lurkerlynch solely on the grounds that the lynchee is lurking, which was pretty much the entire basis of the Peregrine mislynch and the attempt to wagon Sun and Moon. I am NOT opposed to a lurkerlynch on a lurker who also happens to be scummy.

Someone who has strongly avoided the thread (as Sun and Moon have) while both hydra halves are being active elsewhere (which both CSL and Amrum are) is clearly more than a vote for a lurker just because they are lurking. Sorry but you stance doesn’t hold water.

That said Amrun doesn’t have a propensity for lurking as scum so at this stage I’m not pushing the issue. Sun and Moon is a great Feysal kill.

@Wraith

– WHO IS SCUM ON THOSE WAGONS? This is at least the second time I’ve asked. I want answers – at least two players you think are scum (besides Kayne) for pushing those lynches.

--

Are you seriously THAT dense/unmotivated?

Mafia is a game about information exchange to find scum. If you want to play “Captain Annoying” by not directly answering questions that’s not my issue. I’m not going back to look at the fricking sign-up thread once the game has started. True fact. It's not the game thread ... this is.

You could have just said “Nope, no idea” in the first place. But you chose to take the route least helpful to Town. If you are Town you don’t understand to be useful.

Again, I’ll just assume you are scum since I’d have figured by now you might have figured that out (since you joined in 2004).

Fact #1 - THIS IS A BASTARD GAME.
Fact #2 - It is always optimal play to vig a jester rather than lynching them. Why the hell would you give someone the satisfaction of winning when they aren't town-aligned? That's retarded.

Your first fact is irrelevant. This is a LARGE THEME GAME. I’m going to assume that Plum is a competent mod (history shows she is) and wouldn’t flush away the hard work she put into the game with an end-gaming Jester.

The second fact is again irrelevant. Your Jester speculation is pointless tail-chasing. If you think someone is scummy you lynch them. Worrying more about depriving someone of some secondary pride points as opposed to actively worrying about lynching scum is at best foolish and probably scummy.

And it is funny that you are pushing the “Must Vig Jester” angle so hard while voting for Feysal who appears to be the closest thing in the game to a Vig. I find those competing stances to be scummy.

Please choose your personal definition of scumhunting:

Nice way to attempt to limit the definitions to your choosing.

You are doing nothing in thread that reflects that you are actively looking for scum. Your “I don’t know who is scum” statement confirms this in my mind. Thus you are playing much more towards a scum wincon than a Town wincon.

--

- To consider MoI "confirmed" town based on this info (I'm looking at WoW) is wrong because this is all he's given us

Aside from the fact that you ignored the fact I delivered Feysal from the QT (as non-Town) this is rather pointless.

My Towniness should be judged completely apart for the Seraphim QT. It should be judged based on the rest of my play.

This whole portion of your post reads much like weak undermining I saw from MoS.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Funny how this never came out when WoW was calling you "confirmed" town just for the Seraph QT.

Please explain what you mean by funny.

--

Where did I say that a Jester would end the game? Stop putting words in my mouth. I'm actively worrying about lynching scum, which is why I chose NOT to lynch Gandalf, who was more likely jester than scum.

You never said anything of the sort. You apparently aren’t comprehending the point. A Jester ending the game is the ONLY reason to give the possibility of a Jester any thought what-so-ever. You find someone playing scummy … you lynch them.

Feysal clearly doesn't have the interests of the town at heart, since he did NOT kill Gandalf last night and instead (supposedly) tried to kill Furcolow just because Furc asked him to. He's scum, and there's no way I trust him to kill who he's supposed to.

Did Feysal call Gandalf scum? If not your desire to see Gandalf NKed doesn’t really factor into the scenario. I personally would have shot any number of players (I can think of at least 5 off-hand) before even considering Gandalf.

LoL, I love how MoI is just OMGUSing everyone who questions him now.

Kid needs to get a grip

and realize that we're all not sheep here.

Oh, I’m sorry … I didn’t know I wasn’t allowed to call your scummy play out because your scummy posts happened to be directed at me. Pointless reliance on outdated Wikitells noted.

And the bolded is LOL indeed. News flash Tex – I guarantee if one of us is a ‘kid’ it’s you.

But since you need apparently a lesson in why undermining is an effective and classic scum move I’ll explain it to you.

Town has not reason to attach players they don’t think are scummy in a manner. Or at least competent Town doesn’t anyway.

Scum, however, when faced with a difficult target (aka someone who generally isn’t considered scummy for their play) they have to go the undermining route. That’s the route where scum don’t call someone scummy and instead resort to rhetoric. Here are some of the examples of you doing exactly that …

I don't negotiate with terroristsidiots.

I'm still not convinced that MoI isn't just retarded.

It’s straight from the playbook of politician everywhere … when you can’t actually attack your opponents record then demonize them.

Yup, everyone who disagrees with MoS has to be mentally challenged.

Fail. But I appreciate that you’ve made it easier to pick you out from the rest of the non-scum hunters as scum. In fact have a vote … you earned it!

UNVOTE: Kayne
VOTE: MoS

Are you on crack? Feysal has already claimed HIMSELF that he's not town...and I don't think this is another GreyICE ala UPick.

So you think that Feysal is scum. Is Furcolow scum with him? If not why would Furc lie about being targetted?

And do you think Chrono was some sort of Vig / SK shot then? Do you think we are in Multi-scum?

I need to see how these stances make sense in conjunction with the game state as we know it currently.

[MagnaofIllusion]

And yet you're the one telling me that I should consider Feysal a vig to be used to kill Gandalf...you're contradicting yourself now.

Absolute lie. Where have I EVER advocated keeping Feysal alive and directing his shots? Please find me where that happened. Because it didn’t. And you can't. More non-scum hunting and lying on your part. Nice.

I oppose all non-town win conditions by policy when I am town. It's as simple as that.

Good to know you’d rather stick to a pointless policy than think about the game in a manner that’s effective.

So basically you think I'm scum because you can't handle being insulted. Got it, kid.

Quite the scummy reaction. Try to minimize the reasons you are being voted.

I’m voting your because you are scum. Scum who isn’t scum-hunting, is actively lurking by floating pointless game-theory as ‘useful’ as opposed to the fluff it is, is showing Cognitive Dissonance, and using classic scum moves.

MORE MoS VOTES PLEASE! HE REALLY, REALLY NEEDS THEM.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Busted

Lol, whut? You pull quotes from where I was questioning

you

on

your stances

and are now trying to say that I was advocating keeping Feysal alive?

LULZ!!!

To refresh your memory (since you aren't actually scum-hunting) here’s my thoughts from back when the Topic first came up.

Leashed Serial Killers are never a good idea. Why? They have no long term motivation to actually help Town. Their goal is to survive long enough to achieve their wincondition which does not mesh with Town. So unlike a Town vig they do not have pure motivations. The question becomes … how do you ‘leash’ them. Town’s only threat is basically the promise of a lynch if they do not shoot ‘approved targets’. Since the targets are public the Mafia have full disclosure and can choose to interfere or not (via roleblock / redirect / whatever they have at their disposal). Thus you are certain of having dead Townies when Town directs poorly but no guarantee of dead Mafia when they choose wisely. This situation doesn’t aid Town.

I don't leave claimed Serial Killers alive unless you have a guarenteed scum lynch in their place. If you can provide me with one Gandalf I'm happy to listen. Otherwise we are probably done in this round and round.

So what you did was pick some completely out-of-context quotes to suggest I wanted to keep Feysal alive which didn’t reflect my thoughts at all.

And then thought

HERPADERP

if I show them multiple times people will not notice that I’m completely taking them out of context.

You are really bad at this aren’t you MoS.

I’ll just mark this down as another reason you are flailing scum in this discussion.

MORE MOS VOTES PLEASE!!!!!!!!

[MagnaofIllusion]

Well deadline is basically in three Days. Most of the game has dithered around doing much of nothing. I’m going to move my vote to Kayne in the next 36 hours or so unless a viable alternative really gets moving.

--

MoS, what is your read on MoI?

Use of terms like "busted" make me think you think he is scum, but your previous post does not.

-Amrun

This is what qualifies as content from your slot? Either replace out or get more productive. At this stage we pretty much are inundated with lurkers who aren’t doing much of anything. If you are too busy to play that’s fine but this level of participation isn’t cutting it.

The following players who are still in the game haven’t posted in over 3 days

–

Elli, kayne, Andrius, WoW, Feysal, Espeonage, Dekes

@MOD – Mass prod these players or something please.

Not surprisingly I find the likelihood that at least three of that group to be scum to be approximately 75%. And yes, I pulled that figure right out of the air.

--

Now that we've solved that mystery, let's get back to doing something productive. Someone on the Kanye wagon is scum, if not multiple people. Let's find them and hunt them down, preferably starting with Ellibereth.

Why is Elli scum? Reasons are tek.

Also why are you focusing solely on the Kayne wagon? He’s unflipped so you have NO idea about what votes on him mean in the context of alignment and relational tells.

Why aren’t you looking at the Peregrine wagon? He’s flipped Town and that wagon was much worse than the Kayne wagon. Especially in light of your post at 1163 where you say this –

Why the fuck was PeregrineV lynched?

Read that again, especially the second part. I'm not saying that you personally want Feysal to be kept alive and directed. I'm saying that you ATTACKED me for NOT wanting Feysal kept alive by saying that I should want Feysal to kill Gandalf because he's "the closest thing in the game to a Vig", and then proceeded to argue AGAINST that very attack by claiming that Feysal doesn't think Gandalf is scum and thus can't be expected to vig him.

I’ll make this simple so you can understand it.

1. You claim Gandalf is Jester-scum that needs Vigged.
2. Feysal is the closest thing to Vig we know about currently.
3. Feysal is not going to be lynched today because people like to leave Serial Killer alive.

You claim that your stance on Gandalf is standard MoS play but I haven’t seen you say “Hey Feysal, shoot Gandalf tonight or I am going to run your lynch through tomorrow”. That’s what I would expect Town frustrated by the inability to get a lynch on Feysal to do. It’s pretty much what I did giving Feysal his “MoI approved list”.

Yet despite your ‘hard stand’ on Gandalf you’re going nothing of the sort. It makes me think your stances are completely for show.

--

As a princess who hasn't been sleeping much and is frayed at the edges these pages are the worst pages.

This fight is as useful as a duck's echo.

Pick a direction and move.

Your vote is still on Dekes. We unfortunately aren’t getting a Dekes lynch today apparently. So to be useful yourself why don’t you translate your vote to somewhere where it might actually matter.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I am here, Magna. No need to get activity nazi on my ass.

Actually I think I do. Because I'd be willing to wager over the last 10 pagers or so the precentage of posts outside of a group of about 5 posters is about 25-33% ...

This game has stagnated in a frustrating way.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I'm vla on weekends silly.

So am I. Your activity outside the weekends still frankly stinks.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Spyrex's words move me ... even without the florid Princess prose.

But that response right there puts it over the Top.

UNVOTE: MoS
VOTE: Will-o-Wisp

--

Also, at almost everyone -

Faraday pretty much says your lack of activity is pissing him off and he's probably going to lose his temper soon. Don't anger the Gods on the Mountain people!!!!

[MagnaofIllusion]

APPARENTLY GIVING ME A ROLE ISN'T GOOD ENOUGH
I DONT WANT TO BE NEIGHBORIZED YOU ASSHATS
I WANT A GODDAMN ROLE IS THAT TOO HARD FOR YOU

Hey Andy … I’ve already said neither Seraph has claimed to grant Gandalf his role. And Gandalf himself has said he thinks it was the result of another Night action.

Paying attention to the game > CAPSLOCK stupidity.

--

Reading the thread is tek.

Ok, so your reasoning amounts to the following –

Elli has little reason to be on kayne’s wagon.

That’s it? You don’t have anything else? Because that’s a craptastic load to say that’s reasoning when kayne hasn’t even flipped yet. How do you know he’s a mislynch?

Because sadly, I have null or town reads on most of the PeregrineV wagon. I just have no idea why he was lynched.

There is clearly scum on the wagon. It’s a fact of Mafia. That you don’t even want to look at a completed Town flip wagon as opposed to a smaller wagon on a non-flipped player is suspect.

Here’s the wagon again … who are your Town reads and who are your Null reads?

Dekes, Feysal, Empking, SpyreX, Gut, kanyeknowsbest, Magister Ludi, VitaminR, Furcolow, Andrius, Espeonage, gandalf5166

So basically you're saying that none of the following constitute me telling everyone that Gandalf needs to be killed?

Actually they all basically look like you whining in general. But that’s just my read.

Spyrex makes a lot of good points, except for #4. I don't think people should ever be admonished for calling out another player for not contributing, even if they themselves are not contributing much. It's a null tell at best.

No, it’s not a Null tell. Spyrex has already explained it well – Cognitive Dissonance is a strong scum-tell.

--

Was it because of the tone or the inherent ass hole behavior I am adopting?

It’s because your response is basically the response of someone who isn’t actually Town.

Responding to begin called out instantly? Check.
When called out on that saying “Hey, I read everyday I just don’t provide input because no-one else is and I’m all sad and stuff about losing the Doc”? Check
Refusal to have any independent reads (dear good you are sheeping Wraith another lurky Mclurkerpants)? Check.

--

why else would both wagons have stalled like that? it was looking like either feysal or i were going to be lynched. if one of us were scum and the other was not, excuses could have been made to get the non scum lynch pushed through.

But if you were both not Mafia why would neither wagon have gone through in the first place? This is the part of the argument you don’t have an answer for.

Scum have no motivation to abandon two viable wagons on non-Mafia to wagon another non-Mafia at deadline.

Your survivalist hop onto WoW is noted when you avoided VitaminR and MoS like the plague.

[MagnaofIllusion]

oh i remember what the argument for dekes was now. yeah hes probably scum.

Elaborate. Please.

[MagnaofIllusion]

My iso says otherwise about the sheeping, MoI. I named those suspicions before Wraith named them. If anything, he is sheeping my reads.

Ok, so you are pointing to two posts made approximately 20 pages ago as support for your current suspicions. Has nothing that has happened since then had any impact in your opinions at all? The flip of Peregrine Town, the reveal of Feysal as claimed 3rd party. Nothing? I find it hard to believe you haven't developed any new thoughts. Suspicion stagnation isn't Town.

What would be a resposne that is town, MoI? Waiting to be prodded?

A Town response would have been posting as your were reading and not hiding behind the “I was sad” statement.

--

scum were split between the two wagons i think, with neither group wanting to budge to the opposing wagon. there was not enough town support to push either wagon through without scum shifting and peregrine either presented a clean opportunity or was something that the town supported enough to push through without full scum support

This is basically speculation that is perfectly crafted to support your position.

my wow vote is not survivalist, as i have previously voted him and expressed a desire for him to be lynched. i also didnt make it clear enough in my last post but i would be willing to lynch mos. i had planned on iso'ing him to reaffirm my opinions on him before putting my vote down but things shifted onto wow who i would rather lynch.

Actually it is. The timing is what makes it survivalist. You basically failed to cast a vote all day and only when WoW got himself a mini-wagon did you pop up and vote.

UNVOTE: WoW
VOTE: Kayne

Deadline is getting too close. I don’t see that we are likely to get a viable alternative lynch at this juncture.

[MagnaofIllusion]

When I have more time in the AM I'll address why the following is happening ...

UNVOTE: Kayne
VOTE: Sun and Moon

But first a question

-

What do you do to a uber-lurking Hydra that has provided zero content all game long when one of the heads, whose excuse for said lack of content was "I have no time and am overloaded", turns around and signs up for a new game as a solo player?

Imaginary cookies to everyone who gets the right answer!!!!

[MagnaofIllusion]

First a friendly information post –

AGM has officially claimed Scum Seraph in the QT. I confirm that Andy is pretty much accurately describing what is going on there (except for calling me patronizing … asking you to stop spamming isn’t being patronzing ).

So from now on I am going to ask Mina / Faraday to tell us whenever AGM / Thor are on the clock.

If ANYTHING remotely negative happens to you during the period that AGM / Thor is active you should immediately claim it in thread.

Things like being made a Miller, having any latent powers revoked (while not explaining said powers), or anything else that benefits scum.

This will help Town via the information and allow Mina and Faraday more freedom in choosing their moves if they have additional information about what AGM / Thor are doing.

Thank you for your attention.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I thought both Seraphs could give latent powers? Or is it only Mina/Faraday can activate and AGM/Thor deactivate?

And can you explain that list thing about powers? I am having trouble following it? Scum know what powers are in the game? Or just the Scum Seraph?

- Oversoul

No both can activate and deactivate, according to both Seraphs. I focused on the negative aspects because it would help with scum-hunting and help Mina and Faraday more wisely use the powers they do have. I obviously do not want players who are Town and get Town positive effects (latent powers being activated) to claim that in thread at this juncture. Come Mass-claim time perhaps we will need that info but right now it isn't necessary, IMO.

My understanding is that both Seraphs have an understanding of the powers of their counterpart. This makes sense since both are basically sitting side by side on Top of a Mountain.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I’ll move my vote at deadline to make sure we get a lynch (unless it is on an player I find unacceptable to hang, which is a pretty small list ATM) but it stays on Sun and Moon for the moment to highlight how much bullshit I think the following situation is –

Read Sun and Moon’s ISO. Seriously. It is a bunch of prod-dodging and apologizing.

Statements like this –

But I have some time set aside tonight. I've started working on this already. I've vowed to do it, and I will.

She made this post on Oct 4. Their next post?

MoS, what is your read on MoI?

Use of terms like "busted" make me think you think he is scum, but your previous post does not.

-Amrun

October 10. That’s it. No catch-up, no sign of commitment to the game. The excuses have had to due with illness and lack of time.

Yet on October 11 Amrum herself has over 25 posts all over MS. One of them actively signing up for a new game.

That doesn’t read as someone who is trying to catchup in this game. I smell scum.

--

Anything to add on this?

The ‘Big Reveal’ is that Andius was added to the QT. AGM was basically trolling.

--

Quoting this mostly to acknowledge that I've seen it. And the inclusion of MoS and Wraith within a few posts.

I appreciate the acknowledgement. Take MoS off my approved list as of this post.

And place Sun and Moon and Espeonage at the TOP of the priority list.

Deja vu? That sounds almost exactly like my reason for suspecting PeregrineV. The only difference is that he was a solo player, and did not claim to be overloaded. Otherwise, the behaviors match. So I have to ask, why was the case on PeregrineV bad, and how is the case on Sun and Moon any better?

The wagon (not necessarily the case) on Peregrine was bad because it sprung up like a Beanstalk from Jack and the Beanstalk so close to the end of Day. Timing is the absolute thing that drives my suspicion about the lynch. I don’t disagree that Peregrine making many posts elsewhere while avoiding this thread isn’t a bad thing. I do think that Amrun’s “I’m too overloaded” combined with the continual lurking and Amrun signing up for new games makes that case strong. Especially in light of CSL’s meta of lurking as a scum Hydra.

I asked everyone to defend their position on the wagon basically to see who responded and who didn’t. It may yield benefits down the line.

--

I think CSL meta runs against you with sometihng I saw Vi post before. In the CSL-town games he at least posted random crap.

Agreed 100%. CSL as scum Hydra with Vi lurked like a boss in AGM’s recent Nuke-Fest large theme.

--

MoI I think you're missing what would be the best reason for scum flying to a third wagon D1:

Meh, I do agree with that on some level. I guess it is all to some degree a WIFOM argument. I would like to focus on one part of what you wrote –

instinct says that a large part of why that went the way it did isn't the tech plan above but that scum positioned themselves in such a way that they COULDNT jump without it being hugely suspect.

Point fingers please … who would this be in your opinion?

--

Ellibereth exhibited similarly lackluster reasoning when wagoning people in [REDACTED], where he was scum.

When you get a game you can actually reference let me know. Until then why don’t you peruse Atomic Mafia and tell me what you think of his play there.

Color-coded the above list. Green in some degree of a null read, Red is anti-town, blue is some degree of a town read.

I highly doubt that the only Mafia scum on the wagon was Gandalf. Too big a wagon. If anything the Dekes / Empking / Esp group in your Nulls needs rope or bullets ASAP.

That said why isn’t Furc red since he claimed a Survivor role? That’s just as anti-Town as Feysal’s claim, IMO.

Perhaps I'm giving people too much credit to be able to decipher something so simple. Do you not think that Feysal and/or the other players in this game are smart enough to figure out that I think Gandalf needs to be vigged without me explicitly making the statement that you suggested previously?

Again you aren’t getting the point. Of course you have said you think Gandalf is scum. It’s very passive. Why should Feysal give it any credence when you aren’t pushing him in any way to comply with your read or face your wrath? You have no problem doing that as evidenced below –

Anyone who opts to stay on the Kanye wagon without giving a reasonable response to Spyrex's post will become the direct focal point of ire for the rest of the game until they are dead.

[MagnaofIllusion]

kanyeknowsbest - 6 - Wraith, mockingjaye, Andrius, Will-o-wisp, Empking, Sun and Moon
VitaminR - 6 - Herodotus, Gut, Feysal, Furcolow, kanyeknowsbest, ooba

Well deadline is in about 3 hours. No movement on Sun and Moon who are obviously scum based on Amrun’s last post.

Neither player has been at the top of my scum reads list but both have made moves that I find scummy.

Kayne has more Town reads on this wagon – mockingjaye, Andy

The only vaguely Town read I have on VitaminR is Gut.

Kayne on the other hand has two solid scum reads in Emp and S&M with WoW trailing in the possible scum category and Wraith being a low producer who needs dead.

Vitamin on the other hand has two claimed 3rd parties and kayne who is in my possible scum category.

At this point I don’t want a no-lynch. Either wagon will do since neither are Town reads.

UNVOTE: Sun and Moon
VOTE: VitaminR

I will be around to move to Kayne if necessary.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Ok I'm here but I have to go to class soon.

Wraith I can't help but feel you're being cynical. I see punctuation.
Anywho.

I would rather see kanye swing.
I will shift right before I leave my apartment though, if nothing happens. <3

Deadline is in 18 minutes. Do it now!!!!

[MagnaofIllusion]

Guys, my role gives me a VERY good reason to want to have a pool of three-ish people Feysal will be shooting at. So unless Feysal posts in between now and lock and tells us differently, I'd appreciate it if he shot from Spy's list? Wraith or KKB? I don't know why I forgot about this up until now.

I believe Sun and Moon and Espeonage to be superior shots hands down. They need to be serioudly made dead.

[MagnaofIllusion]

The reason for the two I proposed is KKB needs to flip town so this game can unscrew itself and we can put the holy flames of death on the TWO WASTED DAYS of herfaderp there.

This is a very valid reason for KKB to be Feysaled ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

Feysal's kill list: Gandalf, Wraith, Mockingjaye.

Um, no.

The only name close to acceptable on the list is Wraith.

[MagnaofIllusion]

First off I’d like to offer a big helping of F%CK YOU to AGM for de-Neighborizing me with his last action of the Day.

Secondly I’m dropping the bomb right now …

VOTE: Sun and Moon

They die today. No other options possible.

Claim

- Túrin Turambar – [REDACTED] Suicidal Cop

Yesterday at the end of the Day (their last action) Mina / Faraday unlocked a Latent Ability for me. This gave me an additional ability. I believe, having seen my modified Role PM, that someone unlocked a latent ability on Wraith given his odd flip [Weak Doctor and One Shot Doctor / Cop]. AGM / Mina may be able to confirm this.

Andrius – you can see when this happened in the QT when I posted “Whose turn is it?” to confirm timing.

The Latent ability is Suicidal Cop. I work like a regular cop with the caveat that if I get a guilty result that player must die by the end of the next die or I commit suicide (ostensibly via throwing myself on my sword ala source flavor). There are other modified elements to the role that I can discuss if necessary but think best kept out of scum hands ATM.

I investigated Sun and Moon after the strong push-back I got on them being scummy for their lurking (ooba in particular stands out) given the strong CSL lurking scum meta and Amrun’s “Hey, I’m overloaded but let me sign up for a new game anyway” play.

Thus Sun and Moon needs to hang.

I chose to claim this immediately since the call from Mina / Faraday meant I had little chance of getting Sun and Moon hung without full disclosure.

I’m not going to claim the original portion of my role for obvious reasons.

Also very clearly this is why I wanted Feysal to die since I am very likely one of his targets. If I die via NK and he doesn't go with me please hang him the next day, regardless of what he says.

--

ATTN: TOWN

THE SERAPHS HAVE DECREED THAT EMPKING MUST DIE

Vote: Empking

This has been a public service announcement.

Unfortunately this has to wait until Night for Feysal or tomorrow for obvious reasons.

--

MoI its time for magic

This sets my danger sense running wild Spyrex … did you somehow know what I was about to do?

--

^good plan. +town points for Hero.

Actually as was discussed in the QT it isn’t really as useful as Mina / Faraday originally thought. Preempting AGM would just give him the first action of the next day.

It might bear fruit near endgame if Mina / Faraday have something big up their sleeve and it would help to shut AGM out until the next morning.

[MagnaofIllusion]

That works, too. Apparently I read too much into this one.Also, I missed that one, so it seems Feysal's murder list got reduced to one before the end of the day. MoI, if there's anything else you want to say, now would be the right time. I don't trust Feysal now that you've claimed and if you're indeed his second to last target. It gives him leeway to kill you and then come in tomorrow "Well, guys, now it's only Glaurung left, so you can bet your asses I'ma help town from now on!"

I don't know what ooba is on and given my guilty on Sun and Moon and his known penchant for defending buddies as scum he rockets up my death list behind Empking (unless that is not actually an investigation result).

Also - Feysal's list wasn't reduced to one ... I just was pointing out that MoS's list was unacceptable.

I've shared all the information that I think bears saying at this stage.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I don't know much about this Seraph thing, but wouldn't it be more beneficial to have the last action of the day rather than the first action? That way even if AGM gets to go first, Faramina has the chance to respond before the day ends?

@ANDY - Check to see what Faraday and Mina's current thoughts are on this please.

When we (Mina, Faraday and I) discussed it very early in the QT the consensus then was that it wasn't a very strong advantage. Things may have changed.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Well of course.We're actually talking about the Magna/Feysal issue in-QT right now. :/

Yeah if @SSF*CE AGM hadn't de-Neighborized me this could have all been funneled via QT (or faked as such) to prevent giving Feysal inside information

[MagnaofIllusion]

While we are waiting -

Did you get your role Andy?

[MagnaofIllusion]

What if there is a governor...

Yeah, this little tidbit was something I thought about the minute I saw my modified Role Pm.

Meh if there is hopefully it is either Sun and Moon (and then can't self-govern) or it isn't a scum role.

Not like there being a Governor was going to change my play after the Seraphs decreed Empking had to die ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

Okay, I'll ask. Fair enough.

I’m putting this right up front so no-one misses it.

This quote shows (which ooba alluded to in his claim where he said S&M was confirmed his brother not confirmed Town) that nowhere in the claimed ‘Mason’ role PMs is alignment specifically stated. Which it is in actual Masons. Sun and Moon would have no reason to check with Plum if they were Masons in the normal sense. This actually makes me think they are less likely to be scum partners as ooba would have come out firing that they were alignment confirmed to each other.

So the next person who says “Hey, he’s Town because he’s a Mason” gets an Internet Wedgie. Enough said.

--

By all means, feel free to fix that. The novelty wore off. Thank God I got a side job as Mouthpiece of the Seraphs.

You only got the gig since AGM is an Asshat

I'm inclined to think you're scum, now that the "PR" is fake.
REFERENCES: HASFUCKINGCOW

Meh, that’s a pretty weak reason to suspect him if it’s all you got.

Yes Cow did “Spreads arms wide”.

Meanwhile in Mystery Box Mafia ReaperCharlie (Scum) and Mastermind (Town) both also faked rather crippling post restrictions. Faking a PR is pretty much Null.

--

It seems there was no need to include your name when you claimed your result, Magna. "I'm a modified version of a cop, I have a guilty on Sun and Moon, and we have to lynch them first due to a complication of my ability" would have been enough for me.

There was a method to my madness. I can discuss it post-game if necessary.

--

CLAIM: Mason and vig.

On night 1, I shot chronopie. After this, I became a miller. Whether the two were related, I have no clue. That's why I didn't claim miller, because the start of day 2 is a really weird time to claim miller, and I have an otherwise provable claim. I did, of course, tell my mason partner when this happened.

So you are a Town Vig responsible for the ONLY death N1? And also a Mason where alignment isn’t explicitly stated in the Role PM? Those are Neigbors.

Die.

Even if I am lynched for this, which I shouldn't be, but even if I am, hopefully my death can accomplish something in this counterclaim.

So you shouldn’t be lynched when there is a Cop guilty on you, you claim the only N1 kill as a Vig, you claim Miller after the Guilty happens, and your play is scumtastic?

I think you being lynched will clear up all confusion.

I don't know how ANYONE can believe MoI above me in this situation, despite my lurkiness. I have multiple provable claims. I have Nienor. He has just the name with a cop ability, which I don't think even makes SENSE for Turin.

Well it’s confirmed you scan as scum and you claimed the death of Chronopie the Town cop on a Night where it was the only kill and Feysal and Furc cross confirm that Feysal targeted him. What that says about how ‘provable’ your claims are regarding alignment is no much.

Yes, Neighbor (it’s what you and ooba are, clearly, unless you are both Gambitting Scum partners) status doesn’t confirm jack shit either.

I love that you forget that the Seraphs absolutely know they unlocked my latent ability and everything else that’s gone on this game when saying “Hey, why should you believe MoI over me”.

Again … Die!

--

I suggest we lynch empking. MoI should die today if he's telling the truth. You can lynch\vig S&M and me if he flips town.

I hope you enjoy bullets / rope then because you are eating it by the end of tomorrow if we don’t lynch Sun and Moon today.

[MagnaofIllusion]

a) Read more carefully. I am not asking about my mason status. I am asking about my kill flavor. I already know my mason status.

Here’s what Andy wrote.

Don't fucking guess. ASK THE MOD. If she says no then she says no.

Masons in a bastard game.
We're just checking.

Reads pretty clear to me that he’s asking you to check on your Mason status.

But why didn’t ooba explicitly claim you were alignment confirmed again?

b) Chrono was the doctor, not the cop. I thought YOU were the town cop. Lolwut

It’s a typo of course. Sorry I’m working 14 hour days and am a bit tired.

Sad that I still have put more effort into this game in said circumstances than your slot with TWO players.

Cheeky fucking scum.

And though I HAVE been lurking, I have not been playing scumtastically. Lurking =/= scum. They are two different things that sometimes but not always coincide.

CSL lurks as scum. Fact. Trying to play off that off is funny.

Faramina, can we PLEASE check to see MoI's real role name? I have been confirmed as Turin.

So you agree to self-hammer when it comes back Turin? Pinky swear?

And again … way to try to get the Town Seraph to use limited resources in confirming that you are scum who needs to die.

Cheeky fucking scum indeed.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Again I am putting this directly up front so no-one misses it.

My role pm says mason... That's all I need to know. That's all anyone needs to know. What other answer would Plum give than what is already in my role pm?

I'll ask Plum, though this is silly.

These two quotes clearly demonstrate that Amrun’s (and ooba’s I’m assuming given his brief claim post) role PM explicitly does not say that they are alignment confirmed.

So again … they aren’t Masons as would exist in a Normal game. But then again, this isn’t a normal game.

--

moi
Why did you neglect to clarify why you name claimed in the first place? It's a legit issue and needs to be answered.
Do you still die if your guilty is not mafia?

Because my reason for doing so becomes moot when I explicitly state why. And quite frankly it really doesn’t need to be explained unless Mina / Faraday asks at this stage.

I die if any guilty result I get does not die by Nightfall the next day. Them being Mafia is not explicitly stated, just Guilty. I suppose a Daykill would also work to satisfy the results.

--

CSL lurks as anything, actually. I never lurk, scum or not. This is my first shame of this sort.

Chronopie lurks as both alignments also so your ‘it’s a valid reason to kill him” is rather empty given this statement. Cognitive Dissonance away!!!

If we're both town, then we're both Turin. I don't think that's very likely, so I think you're scum. I've already been confirmed as Turin, so why do you act like a seraph calling you Turin should make me scum? But if we ARE both Turin, somehow, that would mean very interesting things for flavor. You don't seem interested in this at all. I am. It's weird how uninterested you are in the fact that we have both claimed Turin. The more I think about it, the more it seems scum have some need to have me lynched today - kind of like a Bookie, in Sexy Sedilla. You claimed Turin just to claim the main guy and put the highest stakes possible. Ugh. The whole situation is very weird.

Aha … the conspiracy angle surfaces from caught scum … somehow I’m scum who chose to fake-claim Turin just to make the stakes higher. Nevermind that it would have been much more effective to not claim my role and just give a guilty if I was making it up.

Us both being Turin doesn’t mean that you are Town. You scanned Guilty and suddenly claimed Miller afterwards. Nevermind that you had all of Day 2 (which went the distance) to claim it. That’s scum behavior.

Of course there being two Turin’s in the set-up is ‘interesting’. I certainly doesn’t change the fact that I’ve thought you were scum for two days and the Cop guilty confirms it for me. I’m more interested in hanging scum than talking about ‘interesting’ set-up elements when the game is ongoing.

I won't listen to requests from you because the seraphs say you're scum.

Scumdar is off the charts Captain ….

As for masons - MoI, I think your meta is outdated. I know this wasn't always so, but "masons" means alignment confirmed now.

Not even close. The label on your Role PM is rather meaningless unless the abilities stated within back up your claim. Which clearly they don’t.

I once played in a Theme game as a ‘Neighbor’ that was alignment confirmed. Which effectively made me a Mason. But I wasn’t a Mason. I was a “Business Partner Neighbor”.

You can have Role PM that says Super Cop but if you are not granted the explicit ability to investigate players the title doesn’t much matter beyond window dressing.

--

I wouldn't expect the Seraphs to know what that ability is, so how is this relevant?

The Seraphs know 100% I’m not lying about my ability being activated. They also had two days of Thread and QT play to get a read on my. Sun and Moon’s statement that they ‘should be trusted’ based solely on their claim over me makes it a relevant point.

Why?

Why are you asking empty questions? Ooba said (in the post you quoted) that Town should feel free to hang / Vig them if I die today because we don’t lynch Sun and Moon and I flip Town. I’m expressly telling him that he should expect to die.

Is your normal style of play to be this heavy in IIoA?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Ooba softclaimed it earlier.

MoS, it was never 90% non-confirmed and it certainly isn't now. All the cool kids use neighbors.

Ooba scum has a penchant for defending his partners actively. See Back to the Future Mafia.

That said given he had the chance to explicitly claim they were alignment confirmed (and now it is moot since Amrun has admitted they are not) I don't think he is as likely a partner.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@MoI Stop trying to turn this into a you vs. S&M. I don't doubt that you are town, you are stupid to still think S&M is likely scum though, and neither of you are getting lynched today. We aren't giving up a chance at lynching someone that has a real shot at being mafia just to save your ass.

Quite frankly go fuck yourself.

I'm playing to my wincon. I have a Cop guilty and explicit instructions that I DIE if Sun and Moon doesn't. I'm not going to just roll over and quietly go into the Night simply because you say so.

As for being stupid - I'll leave that to you. I note that you are doing everything in your power to ignore the fact that Sun and Moon aren't Masons in the typical sense. Not to mention the fact that the only thing about Sun and Moon's claim that is credible is the fact that they have a QT with ooba.

And that Mina / Faraday confirm their Role-name is apparently Turin.

That's it.

Late Miller claim? Scumtastic.
Cognitive Dissonance in explanation for reasons to shoot Chrono? Scumtastic.
Vig claim then dodges kill flavor concern? Scumtastic.
Slot's play? Scuimtastic.

Amrun is hanging on to the fact that Mina / Faraday say his role-name is Turin and the incorrect interpretation that they are actually alignment confirmed as if that suddenly makes their scummy play and the COP GUILTY just vanish.

No thank you. You can go back to doing nothing as usual Gut ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

MOD - As usual I’ll be V/LA from 5pm EST today until Monday morning for my usual weekend family duties.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Unless ooba S&M are scum claiming masons, we know why there's a guilty result.

No, ooba and S&M are claiming Neighbors not Masons. Their RolePMs DO NOT say they are alignment confirmed. That Amrun had to check is proof of this.

S&M partner found. Otherwise you wouldn't keep saying they were alignment confirmed when the evidence clearly shows that they aren't.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Oh, shut up, MoI.

Empking, you're Today's lynch, not the vig kill.

No, U!

Seriously ... this is your response? It is pretty telling that you can't argue the facts.

Scum-partner confirmed.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Well, when you're arguing fake facts...

edit: Got ninja'd by myself, thats always fun!

Put up or shut up Gut. What 'fake facts' are you referring to.

That's right ... I'm calling you out on direct lying right here.

If you can't provide what 'fake facts' I'm arguing you are just scum using the typical 'rhetoric' route of dismisal when you know you can't actually challenge what I'm saying on a factual basis. And I know you can't since there are none.

Scum.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Scum response.

Feysal

- Please shoot Gut tonight. Thanks!

More Sun and Moon votes please!!!!!!

[MagnaofIllusion]

Now whos using rhetoric to get their way?

TROLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!

I've already explained in great detail why Sun and Moon needs to die -

1. Guilty Cop result. I should stop the list right here but let's continue.
2. Claimed to be alignment confirmed when all evidence (provided by himself and partner, natch) clearly demonstrate he is not. Hey look, a direct lie in their claim.
3. Miller claim after the guilty result reveal. Scum play.
4. Vig claim supported by Kill flavor which he disavows Night 2 kill with identical flavor.
5. Cognitive Dissonance in his reasons for shooting Chrono (lurking as scum) when CSL (part of the Hydra) does the exact same thing and Amrun attempts to say isn't valid meta for CSL.
6. Never addressed why Amrun head was 'too busy' to play as a single player yet was signing up for new games at the exact same time.
7. Flailing in hanging onto "Seraphs say Empking dies" as only reason why he shouldn't die despite all the above.

You on the other hand just say "Hey, he's not scum" and can't back it up with any actual reasons. And when challenged to provide the 'fake facts' I am using you dig your head in the sand and use dismissive rhetoric.

Here's the situation.

We have two ostensible guilty verdicts (Empking and Sun and Moon) even thought the Seraphs have not via Andy or any other mouthpiece claimed it is any more than a read as opposed to an actual result.

With one we automatically lose a Cop with other, unstated abilities (lynching Empking).
With the other we don't (lynching Sun and Moon).

You can't provide a good reason not to lynch Sun and Moon other than you don't want your partner dying.

Scum caught, Kthanksbye.

MORE SUN AND MOON VOTES PLEASE!!!!

[MagnaofIllusion]

Sun and Moon have two solid points to their defense, one being the mason claim which ooba confirmed

Again, this is not the case.

There is also something else to consider here. There has been talk of whether Sun and Moon or MoI would be more useful to the town, and without a doubt the answer is MoI. But for how long? MoI is a claimed cop. We have two dead protective roles, making it highly unlikely there are any more. Quite frankly, it would surprise me greatly if MoI survived the night if he survived the day. Therefore, I think trying to save MoI by lynching Sun and Moon is most likely futile.

Oh, so your theory is to not lynch scum (Sun and Moon) because it would likely still mean I die (even though you have no idea what other powers or ways the Mafia kill might be thwarted) and instead don’t lynch them and guarantee I die. Nice logic.

--

1 This point means next to nothing because of the miller claim.

No, it means he's very likely scum. The timing of the Miller claim (both in thread and to Ooba / Magister in the QT) is suspect. You are trying to frame your “They claimed Miller, thus they get out of jail free” as the truth when it is solely your opinion.

2 'Mason' Is used almost exclusively on alignment confirmed masons these days, its not unreasonable for them to think they are alignment confirmed given that. If you were told you were a 'Cop' you'd expect to be able to investigate right?

If my role PM name said ‘Cop’ and I didn’t have line in the PM that explicitly said I got to investigate players at Night then no, I wouldn’t assume. I’d PM and say “hey Mod, did you leave something out here?” Pretty standard.

And it is absolutely clear that neither Sun and Moon nor ooba got any indication in the PM itself that they are alignment confirmed.

So your stance isn’t really valid.

3 Claimed miller to Ooba over a day before the reveal.

Oh, so you think it isn’t just a likely that Sun and Moon Mafia claimed before the reveal because he knew Chrono was Town and wanted a way to ward off suspicion if a N1 investigation result on them came out?

4 There was a missing killer before he claimed, now their isn't. Amrun is almost certainly a killing role regardless of alignment, why would they lie about shooting wraith? (Honestly he was a reasonable shot)

None of this says anything that disputes he could be Mafia. Noted.

6 Keeping up with a new game is way easier than catching up on one you are in the weeds in. I'm not saying signing up for a new game is the ethical choice, but it doesn't make her a liar.

You again dodge the issue. Amrun said “I’m overwhelmed, I don’t have time for this game as an individual”. CSL is clearly not going to play the game. Thus Amrun knows to stay in she needs to devote attention as basically a single player to the game.

If she was telling the truth – she’d have either replaced out or not been joining new games as an individual as opposed to staying in this game while increasing her ‘game load’.

7 I've seen no such flailing.

Of course you haven’t

I think chamber neatly demonstrated why you don't respond to MoI when he's in tunnel mode.

Continued attempt to deflect that you can’t actually provide any ‘fake facts’ that I am presenting when you asserted they existed earlier noted.

Still scum.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Reread that exchange, other than that I'm done responding to you.

Taking your ball and going home when you keep getting bludgeoned in the argument. Noted.

MORE SUN AND MOON VOTES PLEASE!!!!

[MagnaofIllusion]

vote: empking

Hell no. We are lynching Sun and Moon and Feysal is killing Empking at Night.

Get your vote back on Sun and Moon stat!!!

--

@Dekes, Mockingjaye, WoW, Mastermind

– You all have either previously voted Sun and Moon today or expressed an inclination to do so. Let’s complete the scum lynch please!

--

This is patently ridiculous.

BLAH BLAH BLAH stuff about lurking not being a viable scum strategy BLAH BLAH BLAH

Yes, I obviously altered the above quote before anyone screams 'Tampering'.

You are presenting your opinion that lurking isn’t a viable scum strategy. That’s patently absurd. Lynch all Lurkers didn’t develop for no reason. It is especially effective in a game where multiple other players are lurking and some of them aren’t scum. Let’s look at the list of other lurkers / flakers shall we?

Dekes, ooba/Magister, kayne, Espeonage, empking, WoW, Furc

All of these aren’t your partners. So hiding in this mass is a good scum stategy. Had I not investigated you it certainly would have continued to work for you.

Add in CSL’s meta of lurking as scum and viola – recipe for Sun and Moon lynch.

I joined two games since this one: one as a hydra and as a result of being begged with the agreement that I won't be doing much of anything, ESPECIALLY until I get going properly with this game, and one small open that I pre-/inned and really wanted to play that I actually regret joining due to my workload. It's clearly a null tell, and none of your business.

This is a direct lie. One game you signed up for and started did not involve either a Hydra or a Pre-in.

Plum declines to answer my inquiry about kill flavor, and did not comment on my question about mason; perhaps that means the explanations offered in thread are simply correct.

Yes, the explanation that you are scum who need to hang is simply correct!

MORE SUN AND MOON VOTES PLEASE!!!!!

--

Well.
We know Feysal won't shoot Empking.

If he doesn’t he hangs. Problem solved.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Alert,

We are not lynching Sun and Moon today.

Alert,

No we are. He's scum. He's not alignment confirmed to you. Kthanksbye.

MORE SUN AND MOON VOTES PLEASE!!!!

[MagnaofIllusion]

MORE AMRUN VOTES PLEASE!!!!

--

@Magna: You switch back and forth between saying that ooba/Magister is scum and saying that he just doesn't know Sunandmoon's alignment. It looks like you're using whichever argument is more convenient.

Please show a link to where I say ooba / Magister is scum.

While you are on that errand I’d like you to explain how the fact that both Amrun and Magister have officially confirmed that they are NOT alignment confirmed means that Magister has to be Town. He could possibly be a scum partner (though I think the odds of that are low as they would have lied about the alignment confirmation part if they were). He could possibly be third party of some sort. He could possibly be scum of a different faction (since we have no idea what the Mafia make-up is at all – or at least Town doesn’t). He could possibly be Town.

I did a quick run through your ISO – lots of fairly empty suspicion of now dead Town, lots of IIoA post, little in the way of dedicated scum-hunting. Why are you Town again?

--

First off, the wording of my role own makes it ambiguous. It tells me that Sun and Moon is Turin, my brother, and

that I am reasonably sure he share the same town win condition as me.

Despite proding, and I'm sure on purpose, Plum has not clarified this.

The bolded makes me chuckle. What exactly convinced you of this? Was it their complete lack of actually playing the game until they were caught?

SpyreX..... what happened to being a princess? Independent of anything else, Really, the fact that you spent the first several days adhering to a post restriction, to the detriment of town (at least for day one), and the fact that it now seems to have vanished, makes me unsure enough of your alignment to want you vigged out of the game.

Please explain how said Post Restriction caused him to be detrimental to Town. It didn’t prevent his ability to give reads or comment of game activities.

Will-o-Wisp, what It seems, unless I am mistaken, the "seraphs" have a guilty on empking, and are confirming that Sun and Moon, is, in fact, Turin. If you believe that SunandMoon is town, lynching a vig just so that the third party lyncher Magna can win is hideously anti town, considering that same vig could shoot him tonight after we lynch Mafia.

1. Since the Seraphs haven’t actually communicated via Andy that it is actually a guilty you are mistaken.
2. You know what’s even more Anti-Town? Not lynching scum with a Cop Guilty which causes said Cop to die while deciding to lynch a ‘maybe’ guilty on another suspect who could easily be vigged at Night. That’s Anti-Town as all fucking get out.

Here’s a question to you Magister – am I scum?

Just as you put it to WoW – if you don’t think I’m scum you are effectively voting to kill a Town Cop to save a player who is scum. I want positive confirmation of your position in your next post.

[MagnaofIllusion]

YOU CAN'T VIG SOMEONE IF YOU LYNCH THE VIG

HERPAFUCKINGDERP

That would assume you are Town, which you aren't.

You can't continue to get Guiltys on scum if you let the Cop die

HERP A FUCKING DERP YOURSELF SCUM

MORE SUN AND MOON VOTES PLEASE!

[MagnaofIllusion]

MORE SUN AND MOON VOTES PLEASE!!!

--

@Feysal

– I read 1674. It’s a big ball of nothing. Continue to ignore the facts. They are clearly not alignment confirmed Masons. Both acknowledge not having Mod confirmation in their Role PMs that they are alignment confirmed. Both acknowledge the Mod will not tell them they are. The fact that you are more focused on flavor (um, why Neinor and Turin know each other) and not actual scum behaviors in a Bastard game is clearly Anti-Town. Not that expect a Non-Town player to actually think from a Town perspective. It is one of the reasons I wanted you dead yesterday.

I also note that your refuse to vote either the Cop Guilty or hypo-Seraph guilty and want to free-lance with your vote.

--

i know amrun has a fair amount of experience as a vig so, i dont know, maybe im just hopeful in thinking she wouldnt unconditionally hand her shot off to someone unconfirmed to her?

Despite his lurkerdom this is an excellent point.

--

Who do you think is vig, then - Feysal?

Who killed Chrono?

Don't be stupid.

Who ever said that there is a requirement that there is a Vig in the game? You or your partners killed Chrono.

Continue to name-call if you wish. It’s what scum who can’t argue facts have to do.

I have every reason to think Ludi is town.

I took input on the shots, but I chose chrono because his play fit the scum meta I had of him as well AND Ludi had a corresponding scumread on you.

I did not vig you because you seemed likely to be lynched. It's not always best to shoot your top scumread - for example, in the last game we played where I was a very succesful vig, I shot the scum LEAST LIKELY to be lynched (SpyreX). That's universally the better way to vig.

1. Back-peddling engaged – now you didn’t offer up control to Magister / ooba but simply took input. Noted.
2. Cognitive Dissonance ahoy – you say vigging those likely to be lynched is a better way to vig but you claim shots on Chrono and Espeon who both are very lynchable as scum.

--

@Magister

- I note you completely dodge the question I asked about whether I am scum or not Magister. Why are you afraid to commit to a position? I see some “oh, it is growing on me” fluff that you can back away from when I die and flip Town Cop. Noted.

1. Sun and Moon is a near confirmed vigilante. They gave their kill on night one to me, and I choose Chronopie. Chronopie then died This is not something serial killers do, for one (and we already have a claimed serial killer), nor is it something mafia do with their kill. If Sun and Moon was mafia, turning over the entire mafia kill and making it hostage to me is plain stupid, considering I could choose one of their own and then Sun and Moon would be outed anyways.

This is typical shallow thinking. Assuming for the sake of the argument that you are Town here’s the situation - Sun and Moon are in a Neighborhood with you. For whatever reason they feel free to claim killing Power as a means to ‘build trust’ with you. The ‘offer’ to let you direct the kill. Two things happen at this point –

1. You choose a Town / Non-Mafia player to target. Scum kill said player. Sun and Moon earn ‘confirmation’.
2. You choose a Mafia player to target. They kill you. No-one is the wiser since there is no-one else in your claimed Neighborhood. It certainly doesn’t out Sun and Moon.

Furthermore Amrun is saying that you weren't even truly directing the kill but just providing input. Hardly the situation you are framing here.

2. Sun and Moon is confirmed as Turin. This makes it unlikely, just from a game stand point, that that slot would be scum. Turin as scum doesn't make much sense.

Ok, so you are leaning on “Source Flavor” as the crutch for this argument. I can go and pick out tons of games where that reasoning is exploded. Until we get a Mafia flip (aka Sun and Moon) you are making an empty argument here.

3. Sun and Moon is near confirmed town just by my own role pm. I believe Plum worded the pm's in such a way to leave some thimble of doubt in the players mind about whether they were actually confirmed or not.

Your role PM does not expressly say you know that he is Town aligned. That’s the end of the argument.

You must ask yourself why that stipulation in on Magna's role at all. Most of the time a cop lynches his guilty the day anyway and doesn't die. The only way it makes sense is if there is some way that lynching a guilty, in this case SaM millerhood, actually hurts town, contrary to standard principles.

Lulz, let’s play outguess the Mod in a Bastard game. Meanwhile I’ll point you to the following flip –

5. gandalf5166, Aerin, Town Twoshot-Sacrificial Arsonist

You must ask yourself why the stipulation on his Arsonist role? Oh wait, he's Mod confirmed Town.

So I'd rather have SaM role than yours Magna. Vig>Cop, and Vig+ other good stuff>>>Cop. Amrun being Turin>>> you claiming Turin. Add in the fact SaM is town to me, and I have no idea what you are, and I'm quite alright with you dying. I am sad because you were an active player, but that only matters up to a certain stage.

Nope, Cop>Vig (which doesn’t really apply since he’s not one but ….). A guilty result on both nets you scum. An innocent result on Town results in an alive player from a Cop and a dead player with a Vig (you know, like the Town Doc

you morons

scum Sun and Moon or his partners shot).

--

Shut up about your guilty, MoI. You know it's meaningless. If you want to push the scummy miller claim argument, fine, but the only way the guilty means something is if ML and Amrun are in this together in some sort of gambit.

Hey, it’s the scum partner of Sun and Moon who earlier said he was done responding and pouting like a 5 year old.

Continue to do anything you can to save your partner, Scum!

[MagnaofIllusion]

... There are 2 seraphs, so if a seraph millerized him it would presumably be thor/agm, not the same seraph that is claiming S&M is Turin. But no, I don't think a seraph did the millerizing, it does show the mechanic is in play though.

Or, of course, Sun and Moon are scum and never 'became' a Miller in the first place. Derp.

MORE SUN AND MOON VOTES PLEASE!!!!!

[MagnaofIllusion]

(Mina):

1) I forgot that I changed my mind on Amrun_death. I don't want her dead now. I think Amrun is town but not confirmed town. I would like to know if Ludi noticed Amrun shying away from killing certain people in their mason qt.

@Mina

- Here's the deal. Either get on board with Sun and Moon's death or deactivate my latent Power. Because I am not going to deal with waffling around when doing so FUCKING KILLS ME!

Your choice.

[MagnaofIllusion]

MOD – I’ll be LA from 4pm EST today until Monday morning for my usual weekend family duties.

More Sun and Moon Votes Please!!!!

--

Magna should ask the mod whether that would prevent his death though, otherwise it's a waste of a good-seraph action.

Unsurprisingly the answer is non-commital.

--

Issues:
1) Would Magna rather die so that if he flips Town_Turin S&M will look scummy as hell.

2) Who he believes is scum a) if S&M is scum and b) if S&M is town.

3) Whether he wants S&M lynched today if the suicide is prevented.

1. Um, no. There is no way I support choosing to die as opposed to scum I have a Guilty on. When I get Nightkilled my flip produces the same exact result. And that put scum Sun and Moon in a quandary if I do get saved. Of course it may not matter given there is no guarantee that deactivating the ability saves me or that AGM / Thor will not reactivate it on their turn after you in hopes of scoring an easy Town death..

In any event I'm going to keep pushing my Guilty until my role changes.

3. Yes. What better lynch do we have? I’d support Dekes / Espeonage for certain but doesn’t look like any takers there. Empking flipping Town / 3rd Party would make me even more certain that Sun and Moon are scum.

2. This takes more space so I answered it last –

If Sun and Moon are Scum (which, again, they are ….)

–

At best one partner on the wagon at this stage – probably someone who is voting Sun and Moon but not actively suggesting they are scum and looking for any alternate explanation – Andy and Elli best fit this bill.

Partners are also likely found in players who either voted Sun and Moon early but jumped off quickly or who keep saying ‘hey, I’d vote for them but not yet” – In this pool I’d probably finger WoW, Dekes and maybe mockingjaye on gut without review.

At most one partner is strongly defending scum Sun and Moon – Gut looks to be that suspect for me. As said before, if Sun and Moon is scum I doubt Magister is.

If Sun and Moon are Town (yes, let’s indulge fantasy land here)

–

Multiple scum on the wagon during the day – I’d look between those players still there and the other side of the early jumpers so Mastermind, Empking and Spyrex would be the best bets.

At most one Scum strongly defending him since they know he isn’t aligned with them – Magister actually looks like a good candidate in this scenario as he reaps huge Cred benefits from his position. And if Magister is scum Kayne stands a good chance to for reasons elsewhere in this post.

Feysal and Furc are outside shots if Sun and Moon are Town. Odds of a Town Vig, Town Arsonist, 3rd Party killing Role and Mafia with a kill seems very, very low.

In that regard I wonder why there has been no talk about the chances of a Straight up Town Vig when we already have a flipped Town Arsonist. Curious, you might say.

--

I think Magna's town.

I think we should just not lynch Magna OR S&M, thereby letting Magna die tonight (sadly), which saves a lynch the one way. If he flips Town_Turin then SHENANIGANS and we reexamine S&M.

Insert face-palm pic here.

--

Magna, what are you reads on the four players I outlined several posts ago, those being Dekes, empking, kanye, and Heord.

I’ve said Dekes was scum from Day 2. That hasn’t changed.

Empking I’ve also called scum since Day 1. His claim of role enabler is Null and his play has been no-stellar. The only point going for him is that I don’t think he’s an ardent busser and he’s been on Sun and Moon all Day long. If Sun and Moon is scum (and hint – I think they are) he’s very unlikely a partner.

Kayne only makes sense as scum as a Sun and Moon partner or your partner. That he’s not been ‘killed’ by the ‘Vig’ despite escaping the wagon two Days in a row makes no sense from a Town oriented perspective for those shots.

Herod is dead null.

Holy cow Andrius I checked your wiki and you were a miller vigilante in Saint Kerrigans game. How come you didn't believe that here?

I don’t know what to say other than that is so bad.

“Hey Andy, you were a Miller Vig (who started that way) in an unrelated game from a completely different Mod! Why don’t you believe Sun and Moon’s ridiculous claim on that basis alone? Ignore that the facts are COMPLETELY different”.

--

Yes.
I thought MOI was lying and I knew he couldn't give a reason for doing Gandalf first.

What exactly was I lying about? That I knew the Seraphs both said they didn’t enable Gandalf’s role?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Except for the part where they had claimed miller previously, albeit just to ML, so S&M aren't surprise millers in any relevant sense.

And again, no possible way he fabricated that Night 1 (after no-one claimed Miller Day 1 as is proper) to have an 'ally' to ward of Investigation result that they had to have expected.

Oh wait, that's exactly what happened ....

[MagnaofIllusion]

Wait, whut?

You thought I was lying about the Seraph's abilities when I said they both said they didn't have said ability and you knew this to be true since you did?

I'm confused ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

I'm pretty sure I'm going to regret this but let me try to get through to you one more time.

I've never thought or said S&M is 100% confirmed anything. Your stated possability is just that, a possability. Because of the miller claim that came prior to your cop investigation your investigation is completely meaningless unless you think amrun and ludi are scum together, and you don't seem to think this. Because your objective cop investigation is meaningless you instead have to use subjective means to determine S&M's alignment, which I admit you've done, but I respectfully disagree with your conclusions.

The issue is that you continue to frame your subjective reads as objective facts, which they simply aren't.

I'm sure you are going to regret it since it is you spewing the same crap over again.

1. My guilty is not meaningless based on Sun and Moon's claim to Magister. You keep repeating it as if his status is confirmed fact when it isn't. Even if they aren't partners Sun and Moon can just as easily be Scum 'lying' about becoming a Miller just as easily as he could actually becoming a Miller. Even more so given that both Seraphs have confirmed that they can grant Miller status. How many Miller mechanisms do you think exist in the game? At this stage of the game the only known Cop roles look to be Latent Abilities - Wraith's 1 Shot Cop / Doc and my Suicide Cop. Proliferating the game with 'Surprise Miller' abilities makes little sense in that regard.

In summary - your stance that my objective result is meaningless isn't valid as it works from the premise that Sun and Moon didn't lie to Magister. Which scum will do.

2. Actually the bolded line is your issue also. You are framing your stance as fact when it's only your opinion. I can't really blame you trying this repeatedly as you are very likely their scum partner and thus want to get them off any way you can. So you can't exactly decry what I am doing when you are using the exact same tactics.

MORE SUN AND MOON VOTES PLEASE!!!

[MagnaofIllusion]

Yeah, that should be from Gut ... not sure how that happened ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

I'm very curious at the players who are unvoting a proven NEIGHBORIZOR when it isn't alignment indicative at all. If Espeonage / Smarg were scummy enough to lynch via play it makes no sense to just abandon ship based on what is effectively a VT claim.

I'll have a full catch-up later.

My latent has been deactivated. Again, no word from the MOD on what that may or may not entail.

[MagnaofIllusion]

You don't need mod confirmation. Were you originally a Suicidal Cop? Yes or No. As in when you first got your role, were you a Suicidal Cop?

Why are you so worried about the Smarg wagon when you've been calling for Sun and Moon votes *all* day?

No, Suicide Cop was an activated latent ability. My initial role I have not disclosed. I wanted Mod Confirmation because there is not indication in the description of my latent ability that it going away removes the 'Death Sentance' part of the role.

I have suspicions about the Smarg wagon because Esp was one of my non-Guilty investigation scum reads for several days now. Are you suggesting I can't have suspects outside my Guilty result?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Why didn't you say that earlier? From that post it looked like you were advocating the Smarg lynch, I misinterpreted your post.

If you don't have your latent ability, any passives and actives associated with it should not affect you any longer so you technically should be in the clear.

Look at my ISO. I called Esp scum on multiple occasions. Had I not had a Guilty Verdit (with associated Doom feature) that slot would have been brought under more pressure today. As it stands I didn't want split Town focus with my life on the line ...

The operative words there are 'should not' and 'technically'. I agree but this is Bastard so I'm not 100% assured.

[MagnaofIllusion]

You have an innocent on the slot, or no? I'm confused.

No, I don't. I only have one investigation - you. My ability was enabled at the tail end of Day 2. I investigated you N2.

That sentance says the Esp / Smarg slot was one of the slots I have considered scum based on prior play.

Not sure what is confusing about that ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

So here is my catchup that Halloween and Trick or Treat duties derailed yesterday –

UNVOTE: Sun and Moon
VOTE: Smargaret

Here is my pre-emptive "I TOLD YOU SO!!!" that I can use Post-game.

If as I expect I die tonight and the ‘more useful Vig Miller’ Sun and Moon lives those of you who are Town and still alive better not fucking just write it off. No bullshit “We don’t analyze Nightkills” crap.

Shots should go to Kayne, Dekes, Empking, Herod and Sun and Moon (but of course no-one is going to back me on this until I’m dead).

--

You were the one saying not to reveal positive boons (good word choce Mina) but to reveal the timing of negative ones. THEN WHY did you reveal the EXACT TIME AND ROUND when you got your abilities?
The information only helps AGM.

I specifically stated not to reveal positive boons because there is no reason to say “Hey, I’m a Cop” without any results.

I had a result. In my judgement it was important to provide the back-up facts to explain why I didn’t have a clear from Night 1. If you think that helped AGM too much my apologies but I made the choice I believed was best for Town.

--

I just thought of something, and I feel stupid for not considering it earlier.
How often does a mafia mason claim to their mason partner that they are also a vig?
I would guess that this has never happened in any previous game.
It would limit their options too much. A PR claims? Can't tell your partner that you're going to kill it; so your team will be forced to either not kill that PR (yet), or pretend you tried to kill the person you agreed on and it failed, which should damage your credibility enough to make the whole gambit backfire.
So I don't see Sunandmoon as a mafia member with Magister as a townie. That doesn't rule out other possibilities, but it was previously what I saw as the most likely Sun-scum scenario.

Look, another wall of uselessness. Lots of talk that basically says "Magister and Sun and Moon aren't scum together". Duh.

‘I can’t find evidence of something, so it couldn’t have happened!” – I’ve discussed the reasons why Sun and Moon, as scum, would fake-claim Vig and Miller to his Neighbor before. That you refuse to even consider it happening is suspect.

It is alignment indicative.
The fact that it could be any alignment doesn't mean it isn't more likely to be a particular alignment, and the target selection that one chooses with their action will be based on their alignment.
I think the ability is more likely to be given to a townie, but the choice of Gandalf doesn't seem protown given that Gandalf probably had no role at the time.

Linguistic gymnastics noted. Alignment indicative means just that – indicative of a certain alignment (Innocent Child / Mason are examples).

I can provide you endless examples of Scum Neighborizors. So I have no idea how you came to your “more likely to be given to a townie’ statement.

This whole paragraph can be boiled down to say the following –

“It could be either alignment. Judge by actions. I think it was given to Town but the action doesn’t say this”.

IIoA. Not definitive position taken.

--

To put it another way; If MoI hadn't claimed a guilty on S&M today would you still be voting for them?

If the answer is yes I have no issue with you still voting them

, if the answer is no, then you should really be voting for that other person instead.

Really? In regards to the bolded I’ve been calling them scum for before today you seem to have had a very large problem with it.

--

Why would Rain be a neighborizer?

Horrible post. Outguessing the Mod is scumtastic.

Why didn't SunandMoon's shot on espeonage night two work damn it.

Oh, look, you are finally asking one of the big questions. I’ll provide you with the three possible reasons.

1. Someone protected Esp / Smarg / is lying and is bulletproof. Since we’ve had two Town protective roles flip this would mean it would be likely a scum Doctor.
2. Someone role-blocked Sun and Moon.
3. Sun and Moon is lying about being a Vig and the Mafia decided to use their kill elsewhere since Sun and Moon have a Derp Neighbor.

Once Smarg flips we can proceed to rule out any unlikely scenarios.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Why would someone roleblock sun and moon. Most likely, I think a doctor protect was in play.

So you want to rule out 2 (I agree, I think it is the least likely scenario). That leaves 1 and 3.

If Smarg flips Town 1 goes out the window.

Are there any other scenarios you think I missed? Just want to be clear.

[MagnaofIllusion]

No, I agree those are the most feasible scenarios from an observers point of view. The seraphs could have been involved somehow, but if they were it is unknowable how.

No, they couldn't, at least directly. Faraday and Mina have confirmed that the Seraphs CANNOT act at Night. So no Seraph driven Protect / Block / other can happen.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Ok. How did they activate your latent power then? Was it at the end of day two, or beginning of day three?

As stated it was right before Night Day 2.

But that should be clear given the Seraphs have confirmed it happened when I stated and my investigation happened Night 2.

Was this a 'tarp' ML?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Ok, time for the 'vig' and Feysal to discuss this kills for the Night ....

[MagnaofIllusion]

I shot SpyeX. *pout*

Totes Town reaction there ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

Anyway while waiting for Feysal to appear I'd like Amrun (and MagisterLudi who speaks for that slot like it's his job) to discuss their specific motivation for killing Spyrex.

[MagnaofIllusion]

He avoided that Espeonage wagon like his life depended on it. He chose to focus on other things that should not have been focused on instead of lynching scum. And if he WAS scum, he'd be hard to lynch.

I thought about/discussed several options but that's what I landed on.

Who were our other options?

[MagnaofIllusion]

I know I'll run into it at some point during my read through but I'd love clarification on what Watching from Thangorodrim and Seraphs are.

Seraphs are two sets of Non-players. The can't vote or directly communicate in thread.

Mina / Faraday are the Town Seraphs.
AGM / Thor are the Scum Seraphs.

They take alternating turns during the day using abilities. Those include granting boons (positive and negative), Neighborizing players to talk to, and other matters.

--

@Andy

- Do you have a role.

@Empking

- Once Andy has answered please indicate whether you attempted to give him one overnight.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Though page 20 and the amount of flavor and setup speculation is abysmal. From what I've read I'm leaning heavily towards Andrius, Furcolow, MoI and Ludi being town with weaker town-reads on MoS, Eli and to a degree Gut. I'd say that Mockingjaye and LordChronos are likely scum as well.

Well by page 20 at least two of those are incorrect ....

[MagnaofIllusion]

Vote: Amrun

Great.

Did you give Andrius a role last night. YES OR NO

.

This is not optional.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Elaborate. Also an answer to have we mass-claimed and/or should we mass-claim would be nice. Also do you have Faradays/Minas reads and if so can you link me to a post that includes them or post them please?

At page 35 now and very confident in saying that I think Furcolow, MoI and Ludi are town. I really don't see mafia not being given a role either nor do I see mafia attempting to pretend not to have a role making Andrius likely town. Still have a slight town-read on Eli but my town-read on MoS and Gut has essentially vanished, not so sure on Mocking either, I skimmed a lot of her newer posts and plan on ISOing her when I'm done with this read-through.

1. Furc has claimed a 3rd Party Survivor role.
2. Scratch the second incorrect – I mixed up LordChronos and Chronopie there … Chronopie flipped Doc.

No mass claim at this stage so far. No-one has discussed mass claims yet. Given the lack of success our so called Town friendly killing machines have had in NKs it probably is worth discussing.

Ask Andrius about Mina / Faraday’s reads. As long as I was a member of the Neighborhood they were shy about giving them out.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Don't be a dick. There's no need to bold it and threaten.

Yes.

Yeah ... that probably was over the top. My bad. Frankly I'm tired of no-one listening to me and I'm done with messing around.

@Andy

- Do you have a role? Yes or No is sufficent at this stage.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Well, it’s time for VC Analysis while I wait for all the information to come it. It’s going to be a little more ragged than usual since we have claimed Non-mafia 3rd party factions. I’m just going to calculate what I think to be the high side of total expected scum and wing it. It worked for Atomic Mafia.

22 Actual players in the game (disregarding the Seraphs – they will have to live with it). High expected total scum percentage is around 33%. I’m going to go 35% just based on gut. Expected total scum is 7.7, rounded to 8.

Blue equals confirmed Town via deaths.
Red equals confirmed non-Town via deaths or in thread 3rd Party claims.

N1 End of Day Wagons

–

kanyeknowsbest - 6 -

Will-o-wisp

, mockingjaye,

Wraith

, Sun and Moon,

PeregrineV

,

smargaret

Feysal

- 4 - Mastermind of Sin, MagnaofIllusion, Herodotus,

gandalf5166

PeregrineV

- 10 - Dekes,

Feysal

, Empking,

Spyrex

, Gut, kanyeknowsbest, Magister Ludi,

VitaminR

,

Furcolowl

, Andrius

Not Voting (2):

Chronopie

, Ellibereth

N2 End of Day Wagons

–

Furcolowl

- 1 -

smargaret

Feysal

- 1 - Dekes

VitaminR

- 10 - Herodotus, Gut, Empking,

Furcolowl

, Magister Ludi, kanyeknowsbest, MagnaofIllusion,

Wraith

, Andrius,

Feysal

kanyeknowsbest - 6 - mockingjaye,

Will-o-wisp

,

gandalf5166

, Sun and Moon,

VitaminR

Will-o-wisp

- 1 -

Spyrex

Wraith

- 1 - Mastermind of Sin

Not Voting (1): Ellibereth,

N3 End of Day Wagons

–

Sun and Moon - 4 - Empking, Ellibereth, Andrius,

Spyrex

Empking - 1 -

Will-o-wisp

smargaret

- 9 - Herodotus, kanyeknowsbest, Mastermind of Sin, Sun and Moon,

Furcolowl

, Gut, Magister Ludi, mockingjaye, MagnaofIllusion
MagnaofIllusion - 1 -

smargaret

Not Voting (2): Dekes,

Feysal

[MagnaofIllusion]

Well, here’s the actual N1 Wagons –

kanyeknowsbest - 5 -

Will-o-wisp

, mockingjaye,

Wraith

, Sun and Moon,

PeregrineV

Feysall

- 3 - Mastermind of Sin, MagnaofIllusion, LordChronos

PeregrineV

- 12 -

smargaretl

,

Feysall

, Empking,

Spyrex

, Gut, kanyeknowsbest, Magister Ludi,

VitaminR

,

Furcolowl

, Andrius, Espeonage,

gandalf5166

Not Voting (2):

Chronopie

, Ellibereth

[MagnaofIllusion]

This will have to continue tomorrow. My brain obviously isn't working since I've screwed up that color / replace process twice since I have both Espeonage and Smarg on the Vote Count above.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Ok, trying this one more time …

22 Actual players in the game (disregarding the Seraphs – they will have to live with it). High expected total scum percentage is around 33%. I’m going to go 35% just based on gut. Expected total scum is 7.7, rounded to 8. After a Night’s sleep I’ve decided to filter out Feysal and Furc from the process to better identify scum. This leaves 6 expected scum.

Blue equals confirmed Town via deaths.
Red equals confirmed non-Town via deaths
Orange equals Third Party claims in thread.

N1 End of Day Wagons –

kanyeknowsbest - 5 -

Will-o-wisp

, mockingjaye,

Wraith

, Sun and Moon,

PeregrineV

Feysal

- 3 - Mastermind of Sin, MagnaofIllusion, Herodotus

PeregrineV

- 12 - Dekes,

Feysal

, Empking,

Spyrex

, Gut, kanyeknowsbest, Magister Ludi,

VitaminR

,

Furcolow

, Andrius,

smargaret

,

gandalf5166

Not Voting (2):

Chronopie

, Ellibereth


N2 End of Day Wagons –

Furcolow

l - 1 -

smargaret

Feysal

- 1 - Dekes

VitaminR

- 10 - Herodotus, Gut, Empking,

Furcolow

l, Magister Ludi, kanyeknowsbest, MagnaofIllusion,

Wraith

, Andrius,

Feysal

kanyeknowsbest - 6 - mockingjaye,

Will-o-wisp

,

gandalf5166

, Sun and Moon,

VitaminR

Will-o-wisp

- 1 -

Spyrex

Wraith

- 1 - Mastermind of Sin

Not Voting (1): Ellibereth,

N3 End of Day Wagons –

Sun and Moon - 4 - Empking, Ellibereth, Andrius,

Spyrex

Empking - 1 -

Will-o-wisp

smargaret

- 9 - Herodotus, kanyeknowsbest, Mastermind of Sin, Sun and Moon,

Furcolow

l, Gut, Magister Ludi, mockingjaye, MagnaofIllusion
MagnaofIllusion - 1 -

smargaret

Not Voting (2): Dekes,

Feysal

[MagnaofIllusion]

MoI, if you don't mind I'd like to hear your current reads without VCAs impact on them. I really don't believe VCA is as powerful a tool as everyone seems to be making it out to be and is incredibly overused.

No. Sorry, I don’t really care if you like it or not. I’m going through the process to help me focus my attention where it is most likely to show benefit. I find VCA to be powerful.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Wagon Analysis –

Day 1 –

With 6 expected Mafia and 22 alive the percentage is 27.2%.

Expected scum on wagon of 12 is 3.264, rounded to 3.
Expected scum off the wagon (10) is 2.72, rounded to 3.

Scum pool on the wagon (2) – Dekes, Empking, Gut, Kayne, Magister, Adrius
Scum pool off the wagon (3) – Mockingjaye, Sun and Moon, MoS, Hero, Elli

Day 2 –

With 6 expected Mafia and 20 alive the percentage is 30%

Expected scum on wagon of 10 is 3.
Expected scum off wagon (10) is 3.

Scum pool on the wagon (3) – Hero, Gut, Empking, Magister, Kayne, Andrius
Scum pool off the wagon (2) – Dekes, Mockingjaye, Sun and Moon, MoS, Ellie


Day 3 –

With 6 expected Mafia and 17 alive the percentage is 35.3%

Expected scum on wagon of 9 is 3.168, rounded to 3.
Expected scum off wagon (8) is 2.816, rounded to 3.

Scum pool on the wagon (3) – Herod, Kayne, MoS, Sun and Moon, Gut, Magister, Mockingjaye
Scum pool off the wagon (2) – Dekes, Empking, Elli, Andrius

[MagnaofIllusion]

Analytics –

Day 1:

2 scum in 6 players = .333 per player – Dekes, Empking, Gut, Kayne, Magister, Andrius
3 scum in 5 players = .600 per player – Mockingjaye, Sun and Moon, MoS, Ellie, Herod

Day 2:

3 scum in 6 players - .500 per player – Herod, Gut, Empking, Magister, Kayne, Andrius
2 scum in 5 players - .400 per player – Dekes, Mockingjaye, Sun and Moon, MoS, Elli

Day 3:

3 scum in 7 players - .430 per player – Herod, Kayne, MoS, Sun and Moon, Gut, Magister, Mockingjaye
2 scum in 4 players - .500 per player – Dekes, Empking, Elli, Andrius

Complied Results –

Dekes – 1.233
Empking – 1.333
Gut – 1.263
Kayne – 1.263
Magister - 1.263
Andrius – 1.333
Mockingjaye – 1.430
Sun and Moon – 1.430
MoS – 1.430
Elli – 1.500
Herod – 1.630

Resulting Pools –

High – Herod, Elli, Mockingjaye, Sun and Moon, MoS
Medium – Empking, Andrius,
Low – Dekes, Gut, Kayne, Magister

[MagnaofIllusion]

And now I can hear the various whines and complaints .... here's a notice - I DON'T CARE.

It's my method and it works for me. I could point you to where it has worked over and over. I'm not going to because I don't really feel the need to justify.

Suffice it to say I'll be focusing my attention on the pool of Herod, Elli, Mockingjaye and MoS today in deciding where scum lies.

And, of course, deciding if Feysal needs to live. I told you he should have died Day 2 but everyone said "NOOOOO, we can direct him and it's all ProTown and junk". So where did that get us? Two more Town dead and no scum shot.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@MOD – Can we officially replace Sun and Moon with Amrun in the game since that’s effective what we have? Thanks!

--

Mockingjaye’s

1948

strikes me at a gut level as bad.

1. Continual AtE (when I flip Town what then, etc.)
2. Continual focus on Kayne and ignoring of changes of game-state.
3. General unhelpful ‘helpful’ posting ( a visual guide to the NKs that adds nothing to scum-hunting, discussion about Smarg’s possible recruiting that goes no-where ).
4. Sarcasm used as defense regarding ‘bussing’ possibilities as opposed to explanation about why the Smarg vote isn’t a bus.

--

The flip makes kanye look a lot better, mjay. It also basically clears MoS in my opinion.

Elaborate … I’d like to know your reasons.

Oh, also, I should mention that I had another looksee at my role pm and realized I definitely became a miller due to shooting Chronopie.

And I'm not sure if I mentioned this but I'll do it again just in case: I'm compulsive.

So you just decided to look at your role PM now (and not yesterday) to decide shooting Chrono made you a Miller?

And just now decided to mention you were Compulsive?

--

I have reason to believe I know a scum
I will get back to you when the day is done

Oh I can’t wait to see this …

--

Alright, really need some explanations here. Feysal is lynch #1, S&M is lynch #2. Feysal has absolutely NO reason to kill someone other than the person who gives him a win and removes him from the game. Which means that he was lying to us about his win condition from the beginning (which doesn't surprise me). S&M's SpyreX kill stinks, SpyreX was fairly obviously town. I still think it's hella suspicious that S&M has claimed 3 kills so far, and as of yet we have no evidence of a mafia kill. I half suspect that they claimed the failed kill on Espy/Smarg in order to supposedly account for a mafia kill Night 2 and to make them look good when/if their scumbuddy died. Right now, though, I'm more worried about Feysal. I'd also like to hear from MoI about why he isn't dead. Suicide cop failing to get his guilty result lynched and then surviving the day? WTF is that shit?

tl;dr - Feysal, S&M, and MoI are all still hella scummy and have some explaining to do.

Even before the VC Analysis pointed me in his direction this post STUNK as from scum.

1. Multiple mistakes in facts (Lack of Mafia kill, ignoring the shut off of my latent ability) used to take stance
2. Pushing three solidly potential dangers to Mafia (Serial Killer, Proven non-Mafia killer, possible Cop) as the top suspects for the day and completely ignoring the fact that Smargaret flipped scum, and Bulletproof scum at that.

Scummy.

--

no way did it get until espeonage/smarg before i had scum on me. will present a case shortly

Actually it is possible (I’ve seen it happen) but odds are that you are correct and Mockingjaye is one of my top suspects.

--

I still am not sure what to make of MoI. What was your result last night? I know its been asked already, but I want to know who Feysal tried to shoot.

What results? Cop results? I don’t have any as my latent ability was deactivated at the end of the day. I’m assuming the Feysal comment was directed at him.

--

No. I indeed started the game as UNKNOWN.
I'm being subtle.
Its not quite the same as Court, where it was just me and my town goddess.
I've got Morgoth at my table and there's only so much to be said without fear of saying too much.

Those that claim to oppose the enemy would do well not to hinder us.

No, this crap ends.

When was your role actived or did you actually have a role from the beginning? Direct answer with none of this flourid crap ASAP. Hanging out with the Seraphs doesn't exempt you from providing usable content.

--

I know this'll likely get ignored or shot down but I'd really like to get neighbourized by the Seraphs if possible, I have about 3434141 thoughts flowing through my brain right now that I'm used to discussing with a hydra partner about when replacing into games and not being able to voice it to anyone is highly limiting.

If a Seraph wants to do that they are free to but at this stage with at least two living players in that QT I don’t see it as beneficial to use a turn on that when you can process you thoughts in thread.

I think mass-claim is badly badly needed at this point. I also think majority of the open claims so far are from town and the mass-claim will allow us to attain a better idea of where the missing night-kills are as well as lock scum into claims forcing them to explain future night actions. The disadvantages to mass-claiming is slim.

Please explain why you think mass-claiming will tell us about missing Night kills when the only one really in question is the Tortured kill from N1.

--

I can already see the expected reaction from some players. Why would I not kill either claimed Túrin when everyone expected me to? That is exactly why, because everyone expected me to. Last night I would have bet money that the scum were counting on me killing Túrin for them, and the temptation of letting them down and killing someone suspicious was too great. Purposely going against the town by killing Amrun simply did not appeal to me. Sadly I was wrong about Will-o-wisp, if they had been scum I would have been thrilled.

Yet you explicitly agreed to target Dekes and did nothing of the sort. Anything you say from this point is meaningless IMO. Sit in the corner til we decide whether you need to die today or if we MIGHT let you live.

This is why. I never explained it in thread, but Dekes accidentally posting his reads was the very reason why I gave him a town read on day one. Yes, it could have been faked, but it was still cause to doubt whether Dekes was scum. I decided to look at other suspects and chose Will-o-wisp out of them. I don't regret that choice either, only that I missed scum.

So you link us to a VitaminR post? Why didn’t you mention this BEFORE Day 3 ended again. That’s right, because you had not intention of following through and tried to kill either Amrun or I.

Do you think we are stupid?

--

This.

@MagnaofIllusion: Seems like a roundabout way to arrive at

the conclusion that there is very likely one scum among (Elli and Mockingjaye).

Don’t bother. I don’t care what you think about the process.

That said how did you distill the bolded from my post? That’s not what I said at all. Difficutly reading? I notice you specifically avoid mentioning yourself or MoS who are also Top picks form the MoIputer.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Can we just lynch Ellilurkerscum?

Possibly ... I still want to go back and look at the Esp interactions with all my suspects ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

vote: kanye

What happened to your 'I may have confirmed scum' info you said was forthcoming?

[MagnaofIllusion]

I'm a survivor
I'm not going to piss them off

Ok, so we definitely need to have you shot at Night or lynched soon since you are taking a clearly Pro-Scum stance. Noted.

--

And magna, I thought the 'suicidal' part was the activation part, not the 'cop'.

Really? That doesn’t make much sense given the following –

1. Minaday specifically requested any Negative Boons be claimed immediately in thread. Had someone appended Suicidal to a Cop role don’t you think I would have claimed it per those instructions?
2. Minaday were not happy that I claimed the activation immediately yesterday as revealing it gave AGM/Thor more info. Why would they have cared if it was a negative ability?
3. I specifically said yesterday that the Suicide Cop was my latent ability and that I have not claimed any other parts of my role to date.

--

MoS, I don't think VCA is strong because I know for a fact that it's easily beatable as scum and have seen many cases where there was no scum at all on a town lynch on multiple days or multiple scum on a scum lynch.

Support your ‘easily beaten by scum’ stance with support of failing VCA. My VCA doesn’t rely on individual wagons, but the totality of the player’s votes. Scum may avoid one specific wagon but overall their behavior is going to be telling.

--

1) You do realize how ridiculous it sounds for YOU of all people to say it's scummy to want Feysal dead, right?

Classic strawman right here. The point is not that you want Feysal dead. The point is that you want EVERY known possible Anti-Mafia power dead. Scummy to try to avoid the point. More on this in point 2.

2) See above, but replace Feysal with S&M

.

So you still S&M are Mafia now? After the claimed shot, the flip of smarg, and the fact that we had 3 full kill flavors yesterday there is no chance that Sun and Moon are Mafia with smarg.

Are you suggesting that my stance yesterday knowing what I did know and not knowing those facts shouldn’t change coming into today?

Again ...way to strawman.

3) I expected the conflicting claims to be resolved by today (due to scum/Feysal kills), but they were not so I still do not trust any of you. I never saw you say anything about being deactivated.

So you didn’t take the Town confirmed Seraph’s words that they were going to do it at face value? Still in the “People are lying about what the Seraphs say” stance that made no sense before?

4) You think I'm scum for making a mistake about the mafia kill and other facts declared in thread? ...what?

You are scum for immediately pushing today on the strongerst Anti-mafia remaining powers in the game and using fraudulent facts to support your reasoning. Pretty clear. You have reading comprehension skill issues?

5) How in the hell do you think I'm ignoring smarg being scum? I was one of the people pushing that fucking wagon yesterday, and in the very post you quoted to say I was scum, I address smarg being bulletproof. Here, let me quote it for you since you clearly didn't see it the first several times around:

That quote really doesn’t say anything other than you suspected that Sun and Moon lied to cover up them making a Mafia kill yesterday. Which today’s flips and subsequent claims make cleary incorrect.

How does that quote in any way show how you were ‘pushing’ on Smarg / Esp?

Don’t worry, I’m going to go back and look at your Esp / Smarg interactions so I’ll see how your ‘push’ went.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Espeonage / Smargaret intereactions with Herod / LC, Elli, Mockingjaye, MoS

--

First – what Esp had to say

:

First vote is for Furc. Esp avoids RVS entirely. He pushes early on Gandalf and Kayne.

Lulz ISO 19 – I was clearly right about his ‘Why Me’ post about me misreading him.

First interaction directly is ISO 38 where he agrees with Elli re: dismissing WoW’s assertion that Herod had a scummy role due to extended Night as laughable.

ISO 40 – argues with MoS on ‘jester’ GD material … soft, fluffy interaction.

That’s it. Minimal interaction with all top four suspect and never a bit of any indication that any of the were scummy in any way.

Now on to Smarg

:

ISO 1 – Pushes that only S&M or I should be the lynch. Asks MoS why he is voting Elli when it should be 1v1.

Nothing else at all regarding those four.

--

MoS

:

ISO 5 – Fluff mention of “Espy” (I’m assuming Espeonage) in regards to not seeing him on LoL.

I’ll mention as I re-read this ISO the Jester speculation with Gandalf was horrible (which I pointed out earlier) and was an easy way for MoS to actively post while not scum-hunting.

Same with the “I don’t trust MoI’s Seraph information” stance. It looks particularly crafted to appear properly having Town paranoia while not doing anything to scum-hunt.

I forget who convinced me that you weren’t scum after Day 1. I’ll have to look because to ISO 47 you are exhibiting textbook “Active Lurking / No Scumhunting” play.

ISO 52 – Assesses bad votes on Kanye. Gives the following order of suspect votes:

In order of scumminess, I'm thinking Ellibereth > Wraith > Mockingjaye, although it's close enough that I could see switching the first two.

Subsequently votes for Elli in that post.

ISO 61 – Long response to Mockingjaye that can be summarized as “I feel better about you as Town now”

ISO 65 – First game mention Espeonage. Color codes him as ‘Null’.

In case I'm dead tomorrow, let it be known that the following need to be lynched:

Wraith
Mockingjaye

Also, look strongly into the people that wagon-hopped between Kanye and VitR today.

Suddenly Mockingjaye is scum who needs to die. No direct interaction with her since calling her Town in 61.

In ISO 83 he says that he feels ‘better’ about MJ than Wraith (look, Town) but her focus on Kayne is ‘disconcerting’.

ISO 84 – Gives an ordered Feysal kill list of Gandalf, Wraith, Mockingjaye

ISO 88 – Gives Herod Town Points.

I wanted to bring up the following non-interaction point from ISO 92 –

I think SpyreX already hammered.

Here he is ‘expressing sadness’ that Town Spyrex might have hammered Sun and Moon (which clearly he didn’t) when he was on said wagon himself. Scummy.

This isn't the only game Espy is lurking in, fyi.

I'm hoping he gets replaced, though.

Elli is a hypocrit.

Says Espy lurking isn’t a scum-tell and expressed he hoped for a replacement. This is in response to Elli calling Espeonage lurking scum.

ISO 111 is where he votes Smarg yesterday. In context – 72 pages into the game is the first time he calls that slot scum at all. And based on Smargaret’s replace in post suddenly the slot is “LYNCHLYNCHLYNCH” worthy. Interestingly Sun and Moon was at L-2 and here are the further posts he makes regarding the slot

Oooooor...we lynch Smargscum.

Wowscum.

WEAK

MoS Take – Smarg was very likely a bus in my opinion. Not a single interaction with Espy the entire game despite the many times I and others had been calling that slot scum. He sees Smarg make a horrible post that is guaranteed to get rope and gets on early.

Other interactions make me feel better about Elli (actual votes and attacking Elli as lurkerscum when Elli was after Esp) and worse about Mockingjaye(suspcion of slot end of Day 2 that disappears Day 3 to never be seen again).

[MagnaofIllusion]

Now onto Mockingjaye

–

ISO 3 –

Regarding Espeonage, I don't like the early Furc vote in a post where he talks about several other people and not Furc himself; he also doesn't mention Furc in preceding or subsequent posts. He then votes Gandalf instead despite claiming that he didn't think Gandalf was scum a few posts before that; the only reason for the change was that Furc was "entertaining" and "could be the day two lynch" instead. He then sets about justifying Kanye's vote on Gandalf but not his own.

ISO 6 –

In case you need a prompt to help you along, try this one: what do you think of Espeonage, Feysal, Empking, Andrius, Spy, and MoI?

Peppers Esp on a list of people for Kayne to asesss.

Soft interaction with MoS in ISO 12 and 13.

ISO 13 – Gives the following kill list for Feysal:

If Feysal kills tonight, my top choices are Espeonage and Empking, and my third choice would be S&M.

ISO 18 –

I'm not voting yet because I still want more discussion and I want some of my questions addressed. Aside from the conundrum we have to deal with today, KKB, Empking, and Espeonage are still my top three scum-picks. Aside from ALL of that, the tone of the game is becoming very negative and I would like to see it scaled back some.

Mockingjaye votes Smarg in ISO 20.

My thoughts – I really get the sense that the Espeonage commentary was distancing. Note that in the entire game she only directly comments on Esp’s being scummy early (ISO 3). The rest is listing him as possible scum (ISO 18) while not bothering to follow up on it at all or listing the BP player on a Feysal kill list.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Now on to Elli

–

Votes for the Lord Chronos / Herod slot at ISO 3. Likely RVS.

Lots of advocation of lurking lynching from the slot while generally lurking.

Never actually backs support of Esp as lurker scum with a vote.

Thoughts – Meh. No interactions at all. Have to go look at Elli scum games to see if he would call a partner scum but not actually vote for them. The only thing holding me back from saying lurkerscum is the repeated "Why isn't MoI calling me scum" statements. You don't see that generally from scum.

--

Finally Herod / LC

–

LC first

:

ISO 0 - RVS for Andrius

ISO 3 – Questions Esp about his stance :Re Gandalf and how Esp’s belief of Andy’s role affected said read.

Nothing else significant before replace-out.

Herodotus:

likely scum
VitaminR
Empking
MOS

Kanyek, maybe? I don't have a big scum read on him, but I'd be willing to sheep onto a wagon.

Not sure about Espeonage. I think he's just playing poorly.

Calls MoS scum and gives Esp the ‘bad play’ pass.

ISO 8 – Questions MoS about his ‘Lynch Feysal’ stance in regard to scum-hunting.

That does nothing but give Espeonage a reason to lurk.

Feysal is making himself useful beyond what I'd expect, which makes me more inclined than I already was to keep him around, as long as he only kills either scummy players or scum (not always the same thing).

Gandalf claims to have become town, but he was active before that, and started lurking after. He's on my scumlist now. Gandalf, whom are you voting, and why?

Good Feysal targets if they aren't lynched: VitaminR, Gandalf
Second tier: Espeonage, Sunandmoon, Empking

Identifies Esp as a lurker and puts him in the lurker Tier of N2 shot list.

Given VitaminR and gandalf's flips, I'm going to sheep for now.

VOTE: Espeonage, mostly based on ooba's request yesterday.

ISO 45 – Calls Esp possible lurker-scum in debate with Elli, vote previously moved to Furc.

ISO 53 – Discusses Furc’s stance on Esp scum and suggests he might join the wagon.

ISO 55 – Votes smarg

ISO 62 – Argues with me that the Neighborizor claim from Smarg is more likely to come from Town.

Thoughts – Feel a lot better about LC’s limited interaction with Esp than Herod’s. I’d slot him as possible scum but less likely than either Mockingjaye or MoS.

[MagnaofIllusion]

VOTE: Mockingjaye.

I'd also easily support a MoS wagon. Currenly Mockingjaye has more support. I can also see the argument for lynching Feysal to reduce body-count at Night since he's clearly not going to support Town's goals of elminating the Mafia.

Will look at selected Elli-scum Large games to refresh my meta on him.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Willingly, it occurred noticiably in Invictus mafia, the VCA was done by scum yes, but it was overseen by you therefore it's not invalidated in any way. The results of it are below with the scum bolded, now tell me that VCA is still a strong tool after seeing that.

The fact that it was prepared by scum means your point isn't valid. Of course scum are going to fashion a VCA that gives results that are misleading. Your stance that "it was overseen by you" isn't really meaningful. I was not 'in control' of the decisions DGB made in how she weighted particular wagons or whatnot.

If you think I am scum doing the VCA you are welcome to question my methodology or ignore / discount my results. That's your choice. It doesn't impact how I go about my game in either case.

[MagnaofIllusion]

You said you were going to do some reading, and if you do, that should lead you to conclude that MoS and I are town(emphasis on should), leaving Elib and mockingjaye. So, it's a roundabout way to arrive at the conclusion that there is very likely one scum among (Elli and Mockingjaye).

I’ve done those readings and posted my thoughts in thread. Clearly you can judge that I disagree completely that MoS is Town, and that furthermore I’m not sold on you 100% either.

You were supposedly looking for scum based on who was on each lynch wagon. But your playerslot and mine have been on the same lynch wagons so far, so by your own measurement, our scores would be identical.

Of course. Difference being I know my own alignment as Town. I have no way to know your alignment. Don’t like my conclusion? Do your own VCA from your point of view.

You removed Sun and Moon post-analysis. Have you decided they are town? The wagon on them is just as good a place to look for scum as a lynch wagon.

I’ve decided that Sun and Moon can’t be scum partners with Smarg. My VCA was driven by looking for partners not possible Third party. Additionally my methodology for the MoIputer doesn’t look at intermediary wagons because I don’t want to spend all day processing what is an assist function to scum-hunting.

I don’t disagree that significant mid-day wagons are a good place to look for scum. For example Kayne already demonstrated that Mockingjaye had good likelihood of being scum based on the wagon he presented.

Confirmed that everyone alive appears at least once above.

That’s great. Your point?

Empking and Andrius have been on all of the townlynch/sunandmoon wagons and were not on the scumlynch wagon.

Every time someone calls Andrius town, I lose some respect for them. So far only regfan has stated a logically valid reason, and that was speculative.

Again … that’s great. Is your point both are scum? Because while both are currently second tier MoIputer outputs that doesn’t mean they are Town.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Mina / Faraday

– Please be on the lookout to get yourself a new Mouthpiece. I’ve lost any faith in Andy at this stage.

@Mystery Player who was in the QT when I was booted

- Please be double checking Andy's post re Seraph info from here on out. Also, immediately let us know if you are booted.

--

In regards to Herod’s

2003

there are two situations today – one in which we lynch Feysal and one in which we lynch someone else. To expand on his thoughts.

Scenario 1

– We lynch Feysal – in this case we reduce the number of Nightkills to 2 (barring any unknown ones that have not been shown , likelihood slim with a dead Town Arsonist).

That leaves Sun and Moon to shoot who they think is scum (Mockingjaye and MoS are my first choices currently), scum to take out a target of their choice, and perhaps a Cop investigation if Minaday wants to restore my Cop role.

Lowest risk scenario of the two choices – we remove a clear anti-Town kill before it can be used again thus increase the net possible lynches / kills to hit scum.

Scenario 2

– We lynch other and they are Scum / Harmful 3rd party – in this case we reduce the number of Mafia (a key goal at this stage) but leave two anti-Town kills for Night. Feysal isn’t going to get killed by the Mafia since he poses no threat to them. Town probably loses two players at Night and Sun and Moon can either aim for other scum or attempt to take out Feysal. Likely the same outcome as Scenario 1 with the downside of likely losing two Town at Night not one and with the risk that we don’t lynch correctly. If Sun and Moon chooses not shoot Feysal it is still possible Feysal (and possibly Furc) leave the game if they kill the ‘right’ player.

Scenario 3

– We lynch other and they are Town – worst case scenario. We can only possibly get one non-Town player removed (via a successful Sun and Moon shot, not taking into account the possible removal of Feysal / Furc via game mechanic) and have likely 3 dead Townies after Night.

So the Lynch Feysal / Don’t Lynch Feysal decision seems to rest on how risk adverse Town players are. Feysal hanging is the safest route. Lynching another player today brings the possibility of two Mafia dead by Dawn (or 1 Mafia and 1 SK) but has the risk of backfiring.

UNVOTE: Mockingjaye. I want to think about this some more over the weekend.

--

Actually, I only want Feysal dead right now.

That’s not the point. You started the day attacking all three of those players with complete lack of attention to the facts of the game. It was clearly scummy and your backpedalling doesn’t improve that.

Of course I don't think S&M are mafia anymore. Once I found out that we had enough information to discount that possibility, I no longer felt that S&M was a proper lynch. How did you miss that?

The information that discounted that possibility existed before you posted your scummy post. So the ‘Oh, I didn’t know’ stance means either you are a moron or scum. I’m leaning scum.

??? The Seraphs said they were going to do it? I thought *you* told us about it... -_-

Lulz – let’s review since your reading skills suck –

We have one move left today. NO ONE is to lynch before The Baker gives the a-ok. It is not our turn (our last move being made 10/26th at 3:13am and processed circa 10h later). When it is, we will deactivate Magna's power. ANYONE WHO HAMMERS BEFORE THEN IS CONFIRMED SCUM.

Clearly my powers of skimming are lacking

of late.

I fixed that to more accurately reflect your reading comprehension all game.

Since when did I say that quote addressed my push on smarg? You very specifically claimed that I ignored smarg being mafia AND that I ignored smarg being bulletproof. I responded to both of those claims by a) pointing out that I had thought smarg was scum, and b) pointing out that my initial (but faulty) theory at the beginning of the day very clearly took into account that smarg had flipped bulletproof, thus proving that I had NOT, in fact, ignored the flip. My skimming may be terrible, but I at least looked at the roles of the dead, lol...

This is a long paragraph of nothing.

Yet again – your first post showed complete lack of any sort of comprehension of the game state (from a Town perspective). You got laid out when the actual facts were presented and now are backpeddling in an attempt to distance yourself from your own scummy post. Nice.

Herodotus: Feysal claims that he did NOT try to kill Sun & Moon, so why do you believe everything else he's told us about himself but think he's lying about targeting WoW directly?

Do you not understand Mafia? Because Feysal playing to his wincondition says the only logical shots for him last night were Sun and Moon and me. Accepting “Oh, I shot WoW the Bodyguard” story in light of his Dekes kill agreement is pretty ludicrous.

--

Feysal isn't scum
It's confirmed he's not scum
He is either a town vig or an SK based on my ability

He’s claimed SK. In thread. No chance he is a Vig.

Don’t bother trying to save him.

Honestly, with scum + myself + Feysal, we have the ability to not allow the town to lynch anyone this round.
However, I can win without scum, too.

It takes 8 to lynch today. So you would have to, between the Mafia, Feysal and yourself, have more than 6 votes to assure a no-lynch. That’s of course assuming that the Mafia would object to a Feysal lynch. And of course assuming the Feysal and yourself would object to lynching anyone.

[MagnaofIllusion]

MOD – I’ll be LA from 4pm EST today until Monday for my usual weekend family duties.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Minaday

– If you are entertaining the idea of re-initializing my Latent please don’t discuss it at all in the Seraph QT. I’d rather everyone (including AGM/Thor scum) have no idea if you intend to or not and thus have to possibly waste an ability usage slot trying to undermine that possibility. WIFOM away I say!

@Everyone not MoS

– If you don’t bother to read my response to MoS below please focus in on the important element his response skips – his original assertion that he ‘pushed’ the Smarg lynch. The ISO I did on him clearly shows he ignored the Esp slot until the absolute last second and then went into bus mode. He knows he can’t really argue against it so he ignored it.

Also – Gut is officially Town for being kicked out of the Seraph QT.

--

I’m mulling over a theory on Gandalf / Andrius.

Empking’s claimed the role-enabler.

@Empking – At this stage I want a full claim from you. Character and role name, explicit indication of all Night actions.

--

Anyway, we got ourselves 2 scum caught in Nacho and mjaye and let's not be silly and just string 'em up.

Why don’t you for fun explain why you think Nacho is more likely scum over MoS. I’m curious.

Also – what about lynching Feysal today doesn’t make good sense long-Term for Town?

--

You've pretty much just started repeating yourself over and over, so I'm going to wait and respond to this same point all at once.

Then why bother to quote selective parts and say crap like “I’m bored”? You did respond in an typically scummy way to attempt to undermine me by pretending responding to you was repetitive and useless. Scumtastic of you MoS.

I’ll skip all your repetitive crap …

Seriously MoI, your entire argument here has come down to "he didn't pay attention, so he's scum!"

You do realize how little that makes sense, right? You are either claiming that I am scum who skimmed so badly that I forgot about my own faction's kill, or that I'm such a "crafty" player that I feigned missing out on those several facts. Neither of those options are logical conclusions. What exactly would be my motivation for presenting an argument that is so clearly debunked simply by looking at the first post? What evidence have you seen that convinces you that I would be so much more meticulous as town than as scum? That scum-MoS would not have carefully crafted his posts and double-/triple-checked the facts before putting forth his theories? What meta are you drawing this from?

Bolded – Nope, not even close. It’s “MoS’s original post right out of the gate is scummy as all get out. He doesn’t bother to actually look for scum but attack 3rd Party Feysal (easy attack), SunandMoon (not possibly Mafia with Smarg) and myself (I’ll leave you to fill in this but given you’ve already said “I only want to lynch Feysal” it’s pretty clear you know I'm Town) as opposed to looking for Smarg partners”. That’s pretty easy to understand.

The rest of your post looks like a a WIFOM parade –

What would be my motivation when my argument was crap?

Let’s see … hoping you can get Amrun / Magister and I at each other’s throats again based on the 'non-resolution", hoping you can get one or two non-partners to not look closely and to have your partners help out if it works? Clearly not out of the question.

Now on the otherside – What motivation for Town is there to post what you did when it was clearly wrong and to not be first looking for Smarg partners? There really isn’t one.

What evidence have I see that you are more careful as Town or Scum?

Aside from the WIFOM what does that even mean? Makes no sense at all. You are attacking arguments never made. Do you own a large farm you need to fit with all the strawmen you are building today? Again – I see scum taking a chance, getting smacked down, and backpedelling with “Oh, I missed that”. Again … no reason for Town to have taken the stance you did.

What meta am I drawing from

? None at all. I’m drawing from logical scum and Town motivations. I can’t see any for Town (aside from you being a uber-VI level player like Shotty or Furc) but I can see a scum one. A stupid longshot (IMO) as discussed, but still more likely than you are just plain stupid.

I didn't say I believe Feysal...I don't even believe he was telling the truth about his wincon, so my opinion of whether or not he shot WoW is irrelevant, since he should die either way. I am trying to figure out why Herodotus believes EVERYTHING ELSE Feysal has said, but only now thinks the claimed SK might lie to us.

Doesn’t make sense. If Feysal was a full Serial Killer looking to survive long term he would not have claimed his ‘limited target list” that by Day 3 ended up having all but one name off it. And he certainly wouldn’t have gone back on his “I’ll shoot Dekes” statement Day 3 if he was a full Serial Killer. Nothing to gain by saying “I think Dekes is Town” and looking to kill anyone else when a bad flip (in this case WoW) screws him immediately.

Again – the most logical conclusion is that Feysal claimed his actual Wincon and took a flier seeing so many dead Protection roles that he could win and escape today.

The ‘scum-hunting’ you are doing with Herod shows further that you actually aren’t scum-hunting but rather looking for items you can twist to look bad when they actually aren’t.

--

[MagnaofIllusion]

Melian, Mind Restorer, Gandalf, Andy, Andy

Ok, now that Empking has locked into his claim I want to float my current theory.

1. Gandalf claimed his role was restored Night 1 do to a Night action. Directly known.
2. Gandalf specifically said that he had non-thread reasons for wanting Esp alive. Directly known.

Now the theory that I am mulling over is that Esp / Smarg activated Gandalf's role N1 with some action that may or may not have included Neighborizing. The Mindscrewing part of that role is what got me thinking about this.

If Gandalf knew that Esp was the reason his Town role was restored he would have every reason to trust Esp, being Neighborized or not.

And the rest of the theory is that Empking is now using that fact to fake his role and piggyback off the knowledge he likely would have from his scum partner. If I'm correct then I think it unlikely that Scum Empking and Scum Andrius would conspire to make claims in thread that don't mesh (Empking saying he restored Andy's role, Andy saying it was not restore yet during Day 3).



It would to some degree explain why Gandalf was the N2 Mafia kill which has never made much sense to me so far.

If the theory is true then Empking is scum with Esp. I have some things in thread I want to look into regarding timing of this but it's something I sort of developed out the other day.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Amrun and Magister

– please discuss your thoughts on lynching Feysal today to strategically cut down on the number of deaths at Night and to assure at least one of Amrun / myself gets to Day 5

--

@ANDY

– Last chance. This whole “I’m playing this way for a reason” explanation doesn’t cut it. I don’t care if you don’t claim your role or not and furthermore your whole “I’m breadcrumbing” explanation is pointless. Sorry Baker but I don’t really care about your breadcrumbing. I’ve really thought the Bakery was really rather useless to Town in the long term. And if you come back with "My role was known Day1, it was unknown" I'm going to kill you. Period.

I’m going to ask one more time – When did your role become revealed to you? If it has always been revealed to you explicitly say so. Again, I don’t give a rats ass about what it is. Town fucking needs clarity to assess Empking’s claim and I’m fucking tired of your little song and dance. Day 4 with few scum dead is not the time for “Teeeheee, I’m all mysterious” about something like this.

--

I'll mention that I breadcrumbed my Gandalf action in 838(?) (First post of D2) with my random question.

Did you breadcrumb your Night 2 action on Andy?

--

EBWOP: Vote: Andrius

Will likely respond to MoI tomorrow as I mentioned earlier. Going to bed now, so I didn't have time for a long post but I wanted to pop in cuz Andy's latest caught my eye.

Lulz. You are voting Andy for 2058? That’s some serious scum-hunting right there

Still awaiting your response … keep delaying.

--

I think your 'officially town' read is extreme for such a minor tell here

It’s not simply for being kicked out. That was the last element that solified my read. I do find it funny that you take me to task for that when your “his push on Empking via reaction testing” you think is a strong-town tell when it’s really Null until we see Empking’s alignment.

--

also note he had two separate actions on him that night.

i think the scenario you proposed is pretty unlikely moi

Disagree with your conclusion. Gandalf specifically said the following –

Well, I must have been activated by some other means. Maybe the seraph's ability is for something else.

In fact, something else happened to me last night that might be related(I hadn't given it a second thought until now)

. Rather not say what it is though, I'll know more tomorrow, if it's relevant I'll bring it up again.

He specifically says he doesn’t know for certain if being Neighborized resulted in his returning of role.

--

Looking at gandalf's role, "Aerin, Town Twoshot-Sacrificial Arsonist", my interpretation from the flavour and rolename would be that he could target a player at night, then kill himself and the people (up to 2) that he had targeted. (It's not a useful role as I have stated it, but there may be more to it.) I think there is a possibility he meant he would be killing Espeonage (along with himself) after three days. That was what seemed most likely at the beginning of Day 3 before smargaret claimed.

FWIW, I don't think Empking is a good lynch today.

I’m not sure on your interpretation. It’s possible but the “something else happened to me last night” that Kayne and I referenced above strongly hints that his “don’t want Esp dead despite alignment” is him confirming Neighborization by Esp.

And I agree .. Emp isn’t today’s lynch regardless.

--

1. It was a legitimate question. What does he have when I flip town? How legitimate is the rest of a VCA that turns up a false positive with the highest result? There isn't any emotion involved--it's an appeal to logic, maybe, but not emotion. What is plan B when plan A proves fail?

No, it is a clear Appeal to Emotion. That’s what saying “What happens when I flip Town” exactly is. You are flat out stating “Hey, I’m Town”. It may not be emotionally charged (using all-caps, swearing) but it is a textbook Wiki Appeal to Emotion.

How legitimate is a VCA count that turns you up as the top suspect even if you are Town? Perfectly. It would just happen to mean that you voted in a pattern that was most likely for scum to follow given my methodology. I also like that you ignore that four other suspects appear in my “likely” scum tier who I am investigating. The VCA doesn’t say “Mockingjaye is the highest, must be scum”. It says “Look here and investigate using other means”.

2. I still think Kanye is scum.

Great. You have zero support at this point for your stance and really are a top suspect. Regardless of how strongly you feel about Kayne it’s not helpful if you are Town to just lock you vote and suspicion in on one player for four days.

Your sense here is wrong. I have wanted Kanye lynched more than anyone else this entire game and have stayed on him because of that.

Again, pointless. Why is it wrong. Detail how your interactions with Esp / Smarg don’t have the hallmarks of a partner bussing.

I'm working out a VCA of my own to post before I'm lynched (or vigged), but here's a hint: my wagon is scum-driven, so that should help you narrow down your suspects tomorrow after all the flips are in.

Regfan has already pointed out this but I’ve very curious what your “my wagon is scum-driven” supposedly means.

--

[MagnaofIllusion]

If you think it would be better, I'll shoot him tonight, but the possibility of him being bp is there.

Also considering shooting and/or lynching: Furcolow, for playing pro-scum; Andrius, for being scummy; Elli/Nacho for being scummy

1. I think shooting him as opposed to lynching him is the worst choice. Aside from BP concerns it gives him a chance to actually shoot. The only reason not to lynch him is if you trust he will NOT come at us and could be a threat to scum which would be playing against his claimed Wincon.

2. What do you think of MoS / Mockingjaye, especially their Esp / Smarg interactions?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Nacho has done nothing to change my desire to remove Ellib from play. Definitely over mockingjaye.

Why over Mockingjaye? I haven’t seen anything from that slot that looks particularly Town. Elli / Nacho aren’t necessarily less scummy but I’d like to know what you see in Mockingjaye that says “not Scum”.

What I see as ideal:
1. Faramina reactivates Magna (I'm assuming this wouldn't cause his death due to Sunandmoon not having been lynched earlier).
2. Lynch feysal; hopefully this also removes furcolow from the game.
3. Sunandmoon vigs Nacho, Nacho flips scum, and Magna investigates someone.

I’d amend this to have 3 say “Amrun vigs Nacho or Mockingjaye” but otherwise I agree that it is a good plan.

VOTE: Feysal

--

Thats what i'm thinking. Feysal has been a force for bad this entire game. Not really shot who we wanted, despite town asking him too.

Yes, had we lynched Obv-scum Katsuki / Feysal Day 1 instead of listening to whoever said “Lulz, Kats woudn’t rage-quit as Scum” then we would be in a better spot, IMO.

[MagnaofIllusion]

More later today (life is busy right now) but I wanted to say this.

2079

is yet another "One More Day" appeal from scum. I never, ever agree to those.

@Feysal

- You, as usual, have crafted a huge post full of lots of text that says in effect the following -

"Oh hey, I lied to you before. Despite my history of killing Town and doing nothing to kill scum it would be super if you could just let me shoot scum. I swear I'm being honest with you this time!"

That' so stupid I can't even believe you bothered. Seriously. I'll dig out Serial Killer DGB making the same "Oh, just give me one more day" crap emotional appeal in Kunkstar's Cyclical Experiment X01. Had Town been stupid enought to let her "Get a scum kill" she would have won the game.

Your explantion makes absolutely no sense. Why not kill Dekes if were a full Serial Killer? Showing you could be 'trusted' would have made sure that you didn't receive heat today, especially if your Dekes Town approved shot turned up scum. You would have received no pressure from me today had you done as you said. You probably could have continued to string along Town long enough that by the time scum actually got around to killing both Amrun and I Town might have been in a 'Must Lynch Scum" style situation in which lynching you lost the game.

But nope - you stand by your "I swear I didn't try to kill Amrun / MoI and was 'scum-hunting" WoW ... it is just a coincidence that he turned up Town Bodyguard"

You die today. You should have died Day 1 or Day 2 but Town was full of people who don't understand that claimed 3rd Party killing roles never help Town. And this game has, once again, proven it. You wanted a scum kill? Should have made one while you had the chance.

Confirm Vote: Feysal

Goodbye scum.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Ok, catching back up –

Oh look … nothing from Andy. Not a surprise.

Amrun

– I think Mockingjaye is the best shot for tonight personally. Before the day ends give us your two or three top suspects so we have some WIFOM in where you are going.

--

If that's merely an element of your read on him then the strength of the town read makes a lot more sense. Also I don't think Empkings alignment reflects heavily on the towniness of Guts action, if Empking is scum it certainly has some factor into it and makes Gut near confirmed town but if Empkings town the pure reactions gained from it occurring generated content and the ability to attain an easier read on Empking due to his response and as such make Gut likely town.

So no matter what Empking’s alignment your take-away is that Gut is Town. Thus only Town ever use gambits? Disagree completely.

--

I can confirm Feysal is a Serial Killer, by the way, and we should be lynching scum today

His win condition didn't have a list of names with it, or why would I even need to appeal to town/the game not already be over? if you believe im +1 to scum, sure, but why would I even claim then?

Feysal has no chance to win unless they have the town
Town has way less chance to live without Feysal
Scum are getting very high in numbers

These two responses make me assured that Feysal is the right lynch today.

1. Appeal to Fear – “Scum are getting very high in numbers!!!”
2. He’s previously stated that he doesn’t want to bother pissing off the scum. So this “We should be lynching scum” is just empty posting.
3. Why, if Furc has dual wincons as claimed, does he care if Feysal dies? He still supposedly has his Survivor wincon and is by his own admission closer to a win lynching Feysal in that situation as scum gets closer to winning. I get the sense that Furc is more tied to Feysal than he has let on.

--

I quoted a paragraph of Mockingjaye's on the last page that looked town. Most of what I have seen as towntells from Mockingjaye are like that; she's saying things like a townie would. It's not a major townread, but enough that I'd rather see Ellib/Nacho lynched/vigged sooner.

Good enough. Personally I think her lack of interaction with Esp until the bitter end and lack of interaction with many of the remaining players (up until today when she was pressured to do so) is definitely worthy of death. I don’t but much stock in ‘effort’ Towntells.

--

It's kind of silly, but I'm perfectly fine letting Feysal live. Especially with Nachoobvscum running around.

This is why I don’t take you seriously.

--

Yes, I ignored the person who lurked all game and who I said needed to be replaced before we could do anything with that slot. Then they replaced and posted something that got my attention, so I attacked. Do you not think the post I voted smarg over was legitimately scummy? Why do you not believe that town could have read that post and concluded smarg was worth pursuing?

My issue is that Espeonage posted plenty of scummy posts worth pointing out before his replacement. You can look through my ISO and see where I do so. And yet all you say is “Let’s replace him”.

Of course Smarg was scummy in that post. I don’t really buy your sudden “Ok, this slot has to die die die” reaction to that post isn’t bussing because of your complete lack of attention to Esp before the replacement.

Do you think my read that you are very possibly a Esp / Smarg partner who did everything to avoid calling out a very powerful role and then saw Smarg’s self-destruction and had to bus isn’t a logical conclusion?

Because I was making a point. It's one thing for a person to make empty statements like "you're just being repititive" or "you're undermining me", it's another thing to prove it. I wanted people to realize that you were tunneling me so bad that you weren't even stopping to make real argument anymore. You're just throwing the same old shit at me over and over.

This, of course, doesn’t actually prove anything to any degree about my opinions being incorrect. Which is why it is scummy rhetoric.

That's not even a tenuous accusation, that's outright ludicrous. You think that I have such a low opinion of the intelligence of you, Amrun, and Magister, as well as the entire rest of the town players in this game, that I think I could simply tell you something completely contrary to the facts of the game and have you believe me? You really *do* think I'm a moron, don't you?

Really? Are you saying scum MoS has never pretended to not know or understand publicly apparent facts to get be able to make this sort of argument?

Because the answer to this will cover most of the other responses about you being inattentive and the implication to your alignment of such.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Amrun

– please narrow down you Vig list to 3 names please. In the case I do get back my Cop latent I don’t want to duplicate efforts and possible waste the one good shot we have at a final use of dual abilities before one of us bites it.

--

Yeah, I think Furc makes more sense as an automatic vig possibility rather than a lynch.

Um, not. Not tonight. We are already removing a claimed third party. We should NOT reduce the possibility of hitting scum with Amrun’s shot by specifically going for a Furc shot. Now if Furc dies with Feysal this is hardly an issue but if he doesn't it's a bad shot IMO.

--

As I understand, faramina took the last action yesterday, meaning AGM/Thor was first today. Magna said they each have 36 hours. What isn't clear is whether they can act at any time during their turn, or if their action resolves when their 36 hours are finished. We need to know that to know if we are supposed to hammer during faramina's 36 hour period, or after it ends.

Herod is correct in that they work on an alternating 36 hours cycle. What I don’t know for certain is how things resolve. My gut (based on things I have observed) says that they have 36 hours to submit an action and it resolves at the end / at deadline / at lynch. Given apparently we are completely out of contact with them I suggest we lynch Feysal after 72 hours from this post. That guarentees that Minaday gets one more action but doesn’t extend the day needlessly.

--

question: what are we going to do about furc? he clearly has zero intention of aiding town and will be a guaranteed liability if we keep him around until it comes down to the wire. with mockingjaye, andrius, and elli all having a solid chance of being scum the idea of wasting a day lynching furc is not exactly one that i relish.

Putting the cart before the horse here. We have no idea what happens to him when we lynch Feysal. I have a theory floating around in the back of my mind regarding Furc but let’s see what happens when we lynch Feysal before getting worked up yet.


--

@MoI: Posting from my phone, but the answer to your last question is most emphatically YES. That is what I have been trying to tell you this entire day.

Really? Let me reference you to the following links related to Mafia Dating Game 2 –

Farside’s Sign-up Thread – Note that it clearly states in no uncertain terms that the Mafia gets two kills during the night right in Post 0.

MoS post 702

MoS post 716

Here are two posts where you explicitly make the effort to show you don’t know that the Mafia didn’t have two kills despite the fact that it was clearly disclosed in the sign-up and the whole premise of the first game. And you got at least one Town read for this ‘mix-up’ (from StephanB). And it’s a recent game so “oops, I forgot” don’t cut it.

And you were scum.

So you are lying when you say you would never try to fake lack of knowledge as scum.

And thus the whole premise that you could only be ‘inattentive’ in making those ‘mistakes’ in your opening post is blown completely apart. As is the WIFOM of “why would I as scum specifically post things that are easily refuted”.

And why I think you are a great lynch / Vig candidate. Kthxbye!!!

--

[MagnaofIllusion]

I miss things all the time, regardless of alignment. That's because I tend to play by the seat of my pants and the majority of my game is based on gut, rather than thorough reading. I pretty much skim most games until it gets to a point where that doesn't cut it anymore, and then I pull out the logic guns and put in the work. I don't have the time or motivation to do that the whole way through a game.

Then with this and your admission about your play in Dating Game 2 your whole argument about you having to be too ‘stupid’ to make that mistake as scum goes out the window. Seriously … you’ve just directly admitted you miss things as either alignment and shown how you missed obvious facts in Dating Game 2 as scum.

My stance about your start of Day post remains – I see it as scummy. Either you faked ‘missing the information’ as scum knowning you have this to fall back on or you really did miss it and made a horribly scummy attack when you saw only two kills, saw that Spyrex (your team’s shot) was one of them, and saw neither Amrun or myself was dead. You can argue it’s WIFOM, but I’m really not listening. Looking at the rest of your play, your bad Smarg / Esp interactions, and your general lack of scum-hunting I see you as scum.

I regret letting Spyrex sway me out of my scum read on you Day 1 / Day 2.

--

Ludi and Sun and Moon are town by warrant of mason claim.

1. Regardless of what I think of their alignments they aren’t Masons.
2. This is why you think Amrun is Town? Not the fact that she’s claimed a killing role that doesn’t have any likelihood of being Mafia?
3. Why in the hell did you vote for Amrun to begin with?

[MagnaofIllusion]

MOD – Per usual I will be LA from 4pm EST today until Monday morning for my usual weekend family duties.

--

5. You clearly have MoS and me pegged as scum and ask Amrun to look at our interactions with Esp/Marg. Have you looked at mine and MoS's interactions?

Yes I did in my large post session where I evaluated Esp / Smarg against the four of you at the top of my print-out. It was secondary but I did look at interactions between all four of my suspects.

[MagnaofIllusion]

NOTE TO TOWN

- Based on what we know of the 36 hour Seraph cycle at 5:00pm EST on Sunday we should have exceeded the 72 hour threshold to make sure Minaday gets one more action before Night. So please do not lynch Feysal before then.

In fact - I would rather someone unvotes him to get him from L-2 soon. I'd not like him to be able to self-hammer if scum want to stick their necks out and get him there to interfere with this plan.

[MagnaofIllusion]

There are likely 4 scum left, and without 3rd party like Feysal and I siding with the town, you all are going to be screwed
I have confirmed Feysal isn't scum, unless he was recruited by smargaret's slot

Yup , third parties like you who have outwardly stated that they don't want to piss off the Mafia are surely VERY helpful to Town

I don't think there is any more reason to delay ... Feysal is the lynch today.

I'll respond to the posts that have happened while I'm on LA either tonight or tomorrow.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Ok, so finally we’re rid of Feysal.

I had a large part of this post set up responding to him but I decided to let it be for the moment. He’s already dead and no need to clutter the thread with it until postgame.

As an aside Gut’s post tag revelation is a god-send. Good work whichever head of you brought us that gem!

@Amrun

– please get you final three target list in ASAP before the thread closes.

--

Maybe, probably, why do I care?

The better question – why don’t you care? Finding scum is what Mafia (for Town, anyway) is about.

--

YOU SHOULD KNOW THERE IS ALWAYS HOPE

I've been busy this week. Reading and crap tomorrow I'm going to bed now.

Look at this … Sunday never came for Andy.

I’m more or less ready to place Andrius here in the scum bin as his play here reminds me of Stars Aligned 3 scum Andy.

--

During Day 3, while voting for Sun and Moon, Elibereth posted a link to Espeonage's search. He left his vote on the townie.

This part of your Nacho case I don’t find very appetizing. Elli was ‘following the Cop’ due to my Guilty on Amrun. It hardly is fair to attack anyone for having a vote on Amrun but putting their suspicions elsewhere Day 3.

--

1. Okay, so I had a different understanding of what AtE is, as I thought it was actually related to appealing to emotion, not logic; and I still think the question is a logical one. I'm not asking you for mercy based on feelings; I'm asking people to think based on logic.

I am town; I know I'm town, and I'm fine with getting flipped right now because then everyone will know I'm town

, but I want to put everything I'm thinking on the table before I do leave the game, and

I'm bringing these things up apurpose to try to get people to think ahead.

The two bolded are what I want to specifically respond to –

1. Why, if Town, would you be find with getting flipped? It would mean that you were either mislynched or killed at Night. Unless you logically think in your position that you are going to be fielding a scum NK I don’t understand why you would be ok with being lynched. We’ve only popped one Mafia so far … you being lynched is another mislynch that Town really wants to avoid. Everyone knowing you are Town after the fact isn’t that significantly helpful, at least compared to an actual useful lynch.
2. You are trying to get people to look ahead when doing so isn’t very useful. You claim to be Town. No-one else knows this. Until you are flipped I’m not going to pattern my play on the fact that you are Town in my suspicions and inquiries. That’s not logical play and I don’t know why you would expect Town players to work from that perspective.

I'm Turgon, by the way, VT, and I crumbed my character in my first posts of D1 and D2 hoping someone would pick up the hint and think Turgon might be a PR given that he is a king, and then I tried in two other posts to hint at maybe having an investigative or protective role (investigative--re: Gandalf/D1, when I said he shouldn't be a D1 lynch and I'd prefer to wait at least one day anyway; protective--re: MoI/D3 when I contradicted Feysal and said there might be some way to make sure MoI lived through the night and disagreed that we should just lynch elsewhere and let the chips fall where they may). Take that for what you will.

Have any past instances where as VT you have ‘breadcrumbed’ PRs to draw Nightkills? I ask because generally when I see multiple breadcrumbs being made it tends to come from scum more than Town.

--

This is the plan. However, magna, how come you didn't unvote, despite yourself saying it was really good to do so?

Because I was LA. If there was a need to turbo lynch Feysal based on Seraph information (and look, there was …) I was unlikely to have the time to read the thread in full and recongize it / revote. What little time I had this weekend was spent on my modded game.

It would be better than a weekend active player unvoted in my mind. And thus I didn’t.

--

[MagnaofIllusion]

Not much time right now but not a lot is needed -

VOTE: Mastermind of Sin

Be a dear and claim your name, role and Night actions. Especially last Night.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Damn, forgot to add

MOD - I'll be LA for family and Thanksgiving duties til Monday morning. I should have time this weekend but can't promise when.

With Andy's scum flip I'll be updating my VCA for the new reveals and yesterday's voting next chance I can.

[MagnaofIllusion]

So MoS has posed in two threads that he was not modding since I posted my request ...

Deciding in your QT what the best reaction to this information is MoS?

[MagnaofIllusion]

The most recent post I see from Mastermind was before Day 5 started (viewtopic.php?f=3&t=18662&p=3610631#p3610631). Did he delete something?But this delay is boring.

Actually looking back I did screw that up ... I thought it was at 3:00am on the 25th (after my post) not 3:00am on the 24th (before my post).

So my objection to his dodging is fully withdrawn.

I still eagerly await his response, however.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Herod, we have a guilty report on MoS? What did I miss?

Question of the moment - then why, if you believe a guilty report is in, are you voting for someone else?

Once MoS returns and makes his claim more discussion on that end can be had.

[MagnaofIllusion]

It looks like Magna just thinks MoS is scum? Well, I think Nacho happens to be scum as well. I didn't see any guilty report, (and thus don't believe it,) otherwise I would be voting the guilty.

Aha, missed the question mark at the "Herod, we have a guilty report on MoS". Changes the context of your post.

In any regard until MoS posts (or probably three more days pass, whichever comes first) I will not be giving out anything about what information I may or may not have.

But since you feel strongly about Nacho-scum please give us the highlights to consider while we have some time. I'd like to hear your thoughts on it.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Note to Minaday

- In the last two hours I received a notification that my Latent ability was deactivated. I am assuming this is AGM/Thor scum's latest move. If I am correct please get this information to the thread via Magister so we can set up a 36 hours timeframe by which to give you the last ability usage of the day.

--

Gut is correct - MoS has checked onto MS without posting pretty much anywhere. More votes probably will help accelerate his desire to actually comply with the stated request.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Empking

– Who did you target last Night?

--

I still have a townread on MoS, so I'd like a bullet-point list of his scumminess (and nacho's, for that matter).

Here’s very quick bullet-points –

1. Lack of general scum-hunting. Read his ISO and look at how he really spends more time talking about Town-reads than scum-reads.
2. His Esp / Smarg interactions. He never really addressed my case on that end – he ignored Esp all game (including the things I called Esp as scum out during Days 1 – 3) and wanted him replaced. When Smarg appears and posts horribly scummy it’s “KILL ON SITE” which is a reaction you’d expect if he thought Esp was scum and a replacement came in and continued to be scummy.
3. Very defensive play. He spends volumes and volumes on defending himself and this ties into 1.
4. SEKRIT INFO that will come out sooner or later here.

--

not sure im going to hold his disappearance against him too heavily as he is also leaving the game he is modding hanging. id like to think he wouldnt let his own game suffer to put off replying in a different game.

His disappearance isn’t to be held against him. I just want him to actually post what he needs to so we can get him settled and decide what else needs to be accomplished today.

Please give your read on MoS before his information post is discussed.

--

I'm here, but not quite ready to make the post I wanted quite yet.

Well while you are working up whatever you need to do that –

Please discuss your thoughts on Andy now that he has flipped scum. You really were loathe to commit to a read on him yesterday.

[MagnaofIllusion]

To do on the sooner side of sooner or later -

1. Update VCA with additional scum flip.
2. Read MoS and other top suspects in regards to Andy, especially Day 2 on.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Why would you pay special interest starting on day2? Gandalf was targeted by both potential role givers night 1 if my memory isn't failing me which means if Andy started without a role he wouldn't have known he was mafia until day 3 at the earliest.

Your assumption here is that Andy didn't start out Mafia. No strong evidence to say either way. My guess here is that if Andy was recruited (his role flavor being 'Mafia Goon' really doesn't align with any other flips we have seen so far) it was N1 when no Mafia kill (or what we assume is the Mafia flavor with "tortured") happened. Would require Esp / Smarg to have two independant actions (both Neighborizing and Recruiting) but that isn't out of the question.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Revised VCA –

22 Actual players in the game (disregarding the Seraphs – they will have to live with it). High expected total scum percentage is around 33%. I’m going to go 35% just based on gut. Expected total scum is 7.7, rounded to 8. After a Night’s sleep I’ve decided to filter out

Feysal

and Furc from the process to better identify scum. This leaves 6 expected scum (including recruits).

Blue equals confirmed Town via deaths.
Red equals confirmed non-Town via deaths
Orange equals Third Party claims in thread.

N1 End of Day Wagons –

kanyeknowsbest - 5 -

Will-o-wisp

, mockingjaye,

Wraith

, Sun and Moon,

PeregrineV

Feysal

- 3 - Mastermind of Sin, MagnaofIllusion, Herodotus

PeregrineV

- 12 - Dekes,

Feysal

, Empking,

Spyrex

, Gut, kanyeknowsbest, Magister Ludi,

VitaminR

,

Furcolow

,

Andrius

,

Smargaret

,

gandalf5166

Not Voting (2):

Chronopie

, Ellibereth


N2 End of Day Wagons –

Furcolow

l - 1 -

Smargaret

Feysal

- 1 - Dekes

VitaminR

- 10 - Herodotus, Gut, Empking,

Furcolow

l, Magister Ludi, kanyeknowsbest, MagnaofIllusion,

Wraith

,

Andrius

,

Feysal

kanyeknowsbest - 6 - mockingjaye,

Will-o-wisp

,

gandalf5166

, Sun and Moon,

VitaminR

Will-o-wisp

- 1 -

Spyrex

Wraith

- 1 - Mastermind of Sin

Not Voting (1): Ellibereth,

N3 End of Day Wagons –

Sun and Moon - 4 - Empking, Ellibereth,

Andrius

,

Spyrex

Empking - 1 -

Will-o-wisp

Smargaret

- 9 - Herodotus, kanyeknowsbest, Mastermind of Sin, Sun and Moon,

Furcolow

l, Gut, Magister Ludi, mockingjaye, MagnaofIllusion
MagnaofIllusion - 1 -

Smargaret

Not Voting (2): Dekes,

Feysal

N4 End of Day Wagons –

Nachomamma8 - 1 - Gut

Feysal

- 8 - Empking,

Andrius

, MagnaofIllusion, Mastermind of Sin, Sun and Moon, Magister Ludi, Regfan, Herodotus
mockingjaye - 1 - kanyeknowsbest
kanyeknowsbest - 2 - mockingjaye,

Furcolow

Sun and Moon - 1 - Nachomamma8

Not Voting (1):

Feysal

[MagnaofIllusion]

Wagon Analysis (not considering MoS scum immediately )–

Day 1 –

With 6 expected Mafia and 22 alive the percentage is 27.2%.

Expected scum on wagon of 12 is 3.264, rounded to 3.
Expected scum off the wagon (10) is 2.72, rounded to 3.

Scum pool on the wagon (1) – Regfan, Empking, Gut, Kayne, Magister
Scum pool off the wagon (3) – Mockingjaye, Sun and Moon, MoS, Hero, Nacho

Day 2 –

With 6 expected Mafia and 20 alive the percentage is 30%

Expected scum on wagon of 10 is 3.
Expected scum off wagon (10) is 3.

Scum pool on the wagon (2) – Hero, Gut, Empking, Magister, Kayne
Scum pool off the wagon (2) – Regfan, Mockingjaye, Sun and Moon, MoS, Nacho


Day 3 –

With 6 expected Mafia and 17 alive the percentage is 35.3%

Expected scum on wagon of 9 is 3.168, rounded to 3.
Expected scum off wagon (8) is 2.816, rounded to 3.

Scum pool on the wagon (3) – Herod, Kayne, MoS, Sun and Moon, Gut, Magister, Mockingjaye
Scum pool off the wagon (1) – Regfan, Nacho, Empking

Day 4 –

With 5 expected Mafia and 14 alive the percentage is 35.7%

Expected scum on wagon of 8 is 2.857. rounded to 3
Expected scum off wagon (6) is 2.142, rounded to 2

Scum pool on the wagon (2) – Empking, MoS, Sun and Moon, Magister, Regfan, Hero
Scum pool off the wagon (2) – Gut, kayne, mockingjaye, Nacho

[MagnaofIllusion]

Analytics –

Day 1:

1 scum in 5 players = .200 per player – Regfan, Empking, Gut, Kayne, Magister
3 scum in 5 players = .600 per player – Mockingjaye, Sun and Moon, MoS, Nacho, Herod

Day 2:

2 scum in 5 players - .400 per player – Hero, Gut, Empking, Magister, Kayne
2 scum in 5 players - .400 per player – Regfan, Mockingjaye, Sun and Moon, MoS, Nacho

Day 3:

3 scum in 7 players - .430 per player – Herod, Kayne, MoS, Sun and Moon, Gut, Magister, Mockingjaye
1 scum in 3 players - .333 per player – Regfan, Empking, Nacho

Day 4:

2 scum in 6 players = .333 per player – Empking, MoS, Sun and Moon, Magister, Regfan, Hero
2 scum in 4 players = .500 per player – Gut, Kayne, Mockingjaye, Nacho

Complied Results –

Regfan – 1.332
Empking – 1.332
Gut – 1.530
Kayne – 1.530
Magister – 1.363
Mockingjaye – 1.930
Sun and Moon – 1.763
MoS – 1.763
Nacho – 1.833
Herod – 1.763

Resulting Pools –

High – Mockingjaye, Nacho, Herod, MoS
Medium – Gut, Kayne
Low – Regfan, Magister, Empking

1. For the record I did remove Sun and Moon from the list of Mafia suspects for obvious reasons.
2. Not a big change from the last time. Mockingjaye and Nacho look even worse based solely on analytics. Empking moves down and Gut / Kayne move up to the middle.

I will probably re-run this with MoS factored as Mafia after we get him sorted out.

[MagnaofIllusion]

UNVOTE:

After this game, I think you should reevaluate the accuracy of the assumption that the "Expected scum on/off wagon" is independent of the alignment of the person lynched.

LOL, I've peeked ahead at the results Magna will be deriving...

Nope, not happening. No system is absolute but this one works well enough for me. Until I can see something that would be a head and shoulders improvement to the purely mathmatical system I am using here don't expect it to change.

That said feel free to look at any wagon you want regarding placement of players and what it speaks to as far as alignment. I will do that myself later this game-day after the Andy-interaction work.

[MagnaofIllusion]

That's a particularly anti-scientific approach. How can you say that you would consider something that would be a "head and shoulders improvement", if you refuse to evaluate ideas outside of the system you use?

If you're going to remove Sun and Moon, why not do it at an earlier stage, such as when removing the players who have died?

I've developed this over my year plus here at MS. At this point it's as highly developed as I think it is going to get. Again - it is certainly not a "ABSOLUTE INDICATION OF SCUM" tool here. It's a tool to objectively, without emotion / personal bias, review where people fall at the end of each day regarding lynching wagons.

Unless someone comes up with solid statistics that apply to specific games types (for example, showing that in general scum in Large Themes bus less than average statisical spread implies) I don't know what else to refine. I'm not going to crunch numbers myself for that end ... I'm not that altrustic.

Sun and Moon has to stay for the same reason I stay in the raw data stages - I want as full a picture as possible in the raw data. I don't know Sun and Moon's alignment conclusively (were I a Mason in a non-bastard game I wouldn't mark my fellow Mason members / myself confirmed Town until such a point when it was uncontested public knowledge via flips and un-countered claims) so I include Amrun all the way until sloting, at which time I drop her out.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Overall, I feel worst about mjay from this flip. Can someone detail why they thought the flip made mjay townier?

I'm not sure anyone has said they find MJ more Townie due to Andy's flip. The only thing relational tell I see MoS's 180' turn of opinion right at Night regarding MJ. I don't see MoS-scum doing that in relation to MJ-scum when there was still a strong possibility that MJ could get shot / have something incriminating come up. I would expect either he would have kept MJ as possible scum for read Cred.

[MagnaofIllusion]

MoI: So you think I can somehow still be scum even though I've shot scum twice?

Um, no. What makes you say that?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Because you're not unequivocal about my alignment, in your own words.

I can't be unequivocal about you in the same way I am about myself since I can't see your role-Pm.

If I had any thoughts at all about you having even the slightest possibility of being Mafia I would have still included you in my VCA.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Great work both Vi and Kison on the restore!!!

Huzzah for a game I helped myself to lose!