Mini #553: Over!

[Matt_S]

Vote crazy_vlad

for that dumb underscore in your name! Seriously, who uses those things?

[Matt_S]

12/12 people in the fellowship in this mini. 9 people in the real fellowship. 3-scum game is appropriate for 12 players.

I deduce that a mass nameclaim would work here. I don't want to know everyone's role--just what name they are. I believe we'll end up screwing the Nazgul up, unless there are some unorthodox names.

Speaking of which...
If you were given a name of someone who was not Frodo, Samwise (Sam), Pippin, Merry, Aragorn, Boromir, Gandalf, Legolas, or Gimli, please speak up. I don't want you to even claim your name. I just want you to say that you aren't one of these nine.

I don't know whether to call you a scum or a power role.

[Matt_S]

Oh, and I'd like it if people didn't nameclaim until I get a satisfactory explanation from Khelvaster. If it wasn't for the fact that you could be a power ,I'd vote for you now.

[Matt_S]

What, have I gotten a different PM than everyone else or something?

Unvote, Vote destructor

No, it's not OMGUS. I'm sure at least one person knows why I'm doing this. I think you're scummier than Khelvaster because it's pretty pro town to suggest a name claim, but not so pro town to put a second vote on someone who seems to know that a name claim will get our pro town roles killed. So I'll say this: Whoever's the doc, protect Khelvaster. Whoever's the cop, investigate Khelvaster.

[Matt_S]

EBMOP: a name claim will get our pro town

power

roles killed.

[Matt_S]

I'm not part of the Fellowship. That's shouldn't be surprising, as the game would be seriously broken if the town was only the Fellowship. So it's likely all a mass claim would accomplish is give the mafia clues to who our power roles are.

While it's comforting to learn that I'm not alone, I wish we were able to see more reactions before saying this.

[Matt_S]

I've gotten too much attention to myself. I have a feeling that I'm going to be night killed so let's try to get as much as we an from this day. I assume any suspicion towards me is gone now, and CoolBot is probably safe as soon as the remaining vanilla townies arrive.

To all vanillas: be VERY careful about how much you reveal from your pm. We can use this info to prove innocence later on.

To all power roles: Don't do stupid stuff.

To all scum: We'll find you. Get ready.

[Matt_S]

Actually, I think if we're going to do it, the earlier the better. But we've already heard that at least two players have non-fellowship role names and I'd be surprised if scum haven't been given safe claims anyway, which makes me cynical to how effective it would be.

Matt_S, you sound a little paranoid. I don't think you should have voted for me, but if you still feel it's worthwhile can you tell us why?

I assumed that anyone who does have a big name is either a power role or scum, seeing as I don't. Again, a name claim probably isn't a scum's best strategy, so I'm less suspicious of Khelvaster. You, however, put a second vote on me for arguing against a name claim. Not scummy in itself, but this seems to tell me you're not a vanilla townie. And considering I stated that the reason for my reluctance to vote for Khelvaster(him being a possible power role), it seems odd that you'd immediately vote me. I don't see a power role voting someone who claims to fear for the power roles' safety. However, for a scum, it's a nice reason to put a second vote on someone.

So yeah, I think you(I'll refer to you from the 3rd person from now on) were scummy enough to get a vote. But I've got my sights on someone else now.

Unvote, Vote eljcko

. He agrees with a lot of stuff I say according to him, yet his suspicions are on Khelvaster for thinking a name claim could actually be to the town's advantage. He seemed to ignore my argument against destructor. Along those lines, there's a few others that I found suspicious.

FoS ting =)

For giving me an odd feeling. Doesn't seem to know the same stuff I do.

FoS GSGold

For not seeming to know what I know, too.

Of course there's always the possibility that my pm is different than everyone's in case the mod's evil.

As for CoolBot, he's not cleared in my eyes. A few things about his post make me nervous, but it's too early for me to do something. It's not enough for a FoS, but something doesn't fit.

[Matt_S]

destructor

: Two times in the first page, you've mentioned the possibility that Mafia have been given safe-claims. Do you consider this a commonplace occurence in Mafia games?

Yes, at least I think it should be or, like Coolbot said, it makes a game very broken. Also, I have recent experience in an ongoing game where a mass name-claim hasn't outed scum.

Matt, why do you think people are suspicious for not knowing what you know?

Because what I know is something I learned from my role PM. I'm going on the assumption that all vanilla townies got the same pm(or at least with the same information), which I don't think is a bad thing to assume. I'm kind of trying to keep exactly what this "info" is a secret from everyone else, and nobody really seems to know exactly what I know. Of course nobody who's posted lets on that they know what I know, so I only FoS'd the people who seemed to argue the most for my point without actually putting forward what vanillas know. Just an FYI, if anyone thinks they know exactly why I'm opposed to a name claim, then please come forward. If you got the same pm as me, it should be obvious why having everyone say their name wouldn't work at all.

Of course I'm really paranoid because last night I thought I gave too much information and screwed the town. And the more I go on, the more I think I'm the only one who actually has this knowledge.

[Matt_S]

If there are exactly 3 people who aren't part of the fellowship, then I believe the 3 who aren't will need to claim their names. Not their roles, mind you, but their names.

If there are less than 3 people, someone has to be lying. A mass nameclaim will occur.

If there are more than 3 people, then nothing bad comes from this. I seriously doubt the mafia can tell whether you are a power role and, if so, whether it's important to kill you or not just based upon the fact that you are or aren't in the fellowship.

I'll wait for another townie to come and tell you why that won't work. But trust me, it won't.

[Matt_S]

Or the mod loves screwing with me.

[Matt_S]

Unvote

Un-FoS everyone

I am so confused right now. Anyways, I had no name, so I figured all other vanilla townies had no name. Thus I expected a lot more resistance to a name claim. But we should probably forget about all this now. Sooo.....

Vote crazy_vlad

for the underscore again.

[Matt_S]

What is going on in this thread.

It got unthemed and the mod admitted to being evil by not giving me a name. So we're back at square one.

[Matt_S]

I'll start to think you have something against me

You're crazy

[Matt_S]

I didn't want all vanillas to claim, just one so that I knew I wasn't alone. Some people were pushing name claims, others didn't see things the way I saw them, so I wanted someone else to come forward so that the town could have an idea of who could be scum. I originally wanted to see everyone's reactions, because I thought pro name claim people would have to be scum or power roles, and I thought my posts would convince power roles to not post. Of course, lots of people posted so I wanted to get someone to come out with the fact that they didn't have a name so we could eliminate potential scum and actually get the town to understand me. Then the mod came and stuff happened.

A while after my first post, I thought that I doomed Khelvaster(and that he was a power role), but I hoped I could out a few scum so I decided to be secret about what I knew. Again, everything would have gone smoother if somebody else had just not had a name.

Since my only idea is gone, I'll

Unvote, Vote Zyrconium

since I haven't seen him post. Lurkers, lynching, etc.

[Matt_S]

I've read again all the posts. Khelvaster. your mass claim, in the first posts, in the first day, may have been well intended, but is has something fishy for me...
as there is no vote in present for you, and as I consider that we have to clarify that post - and to get to a clear conclusion whether you are or not oa bad guy, I'll give you my vote. it's not a final vote, it is an attention mark. that's all.

vote Khelvaster

I was hoping to trap the mod, if he ended up giving 9 fellowships and 3 non-fellowships. I've seen stuff like this before. 9+3=12, the number of people in our game. 9 townie+3 scum tends to be balanced. If we happened to have a modslip, and he gave Saruman, Witch-King, Sauron or something like that along with the full fellowship, I would have gotten us a quickwin.

Even if I had a name I wouldn't have gone with your plan. But I still can't believe a scum would suggest a name claim. I can see how people would be suspicious though, so I'm having trouble seeing who's most deserving of a vote. So I say we vote Zyrconium to get him to post here.

[Matt_S]

Well, I guess he is too fishy to let go.

Unvote, Vote Khelvaster

I really wonder what would have happened if I hadn't said anything though...

[Matt_S]

Third Official Vote Count!

Votes required:

7 to lynch

4, Khelvaster

-

crazy_vlad, Coolbot, GSGold, Matt_S

1, Zycronium

-

eljcko,

1, Matt_s

-

RangeroftheNorth

1, eljcko

-

massive

1, Coolbot

-

Khelvaster

Not Voting:

4, Zyrconium, Spindax, thing =), destructor

]Huh? What did I say that changed you mind so quickly?

I didn't want to vote him at first because I didn't think scum would ask for a mass name claim. The more I thought about it, the more I've been thinking that a townie would ask for one on day 1. I just don't get what Khelvaster's logic would be no matter what side he'd be on, and like you said we really don't have anything else to go on. Right now, this seems like the only good play other than voting Zyrconium for lurking, which we can do later.

Plus I don't quite like Khelvaster's responses. The more I look back, the fishier things look. You did just ask for names of the 9 in the Fellowship. Now think. If only power roles had had names, you would have ousted all of them. Yet you said:

I think it's pretty clear that we won't have 9 power roles, so asking for whether people are in the fellowship or not is perfectly legitimate.

You seem pretty focused on finding out who's fellowship. You're associating the fellowship with power roles, which makes me look at your name claim with more skepticism. You've confused me from the beginning, to the point I thought you couldn't be scum. Now I don't see how I was so certain.

[Matt_S]

I am also growing suspecious of Matt_S, he did the same thing GS did; he bandwagoned for the heck of it. You also seem way too worried about your page one actions, and what do you mean by this:

I really wonder what would have happened if I hadn't said anything though...

You come across as trying way too hard to blend in with the town. I don't like it at all.

FOS: Matt_S

Post 75(which has a typo, I said would when I meant wouldn't >.>) explains my reasoning. I was seriously doubting Khelvaster's intentions. The only reason I hadn't already voted him was because I couldn't see why a scum would suggest it either. I couldn't see a better play other than voting Zyrconium who's been lurking the whole time. And the reason I'm worried about my page one actions is because I created several pages of confusion with no clear gain. I also fail to see how calling out Khelvaster's plan in my first post is blending in.

[Matt_S]

I'm voting because I want to. I don't get why anyone would suggest a name claim on day 1, but I'd think it would probably benefit the town more. And I haven't "constantly apologized", I've expressed my dislike for the situation. I'm voting for someone whose motives confuse me. If you have a problem with that, that's fine. But your problem is that nobody else has done anything to get as much attention, and you're saying I'm fishy for attacking Khelvaster for his actions. But if it makes you happy I'll target someone else.

FoS eljcko

. Khelvaster says that if people weren't Fellowship, they just had to tell everyone. Yet he says there aren't 9 power roles, and says that because of that there's nothing wrong with asking if people are in the fellowship or not. The only thing I can guess is that he thinks names are connected with power roles. So in other words, "nonfellowship people, a.k.a. vanilla townies, come forward so we don't accidentally night kill you".

Of course he says this isn't what he meant, but the more I read his posts the less I believe him. I don't believe you either, eljcko. You seem to think that my vote is just to conform. It's not. I don't really know what else I can say that hasn't been said. Oh, except this: you said Khelvaster was "very suspicious" in your first post, yet you now start defending him once more people are looking at him. Realize this: if Khelvaster comes up scum you're my next vote.

[Matt_S]

Well, I see not much has happened since I last checked on Friday. I'm seeing an attack on destructor, which I'm iffy about. I initially voted him on the assumption that only power roles had names, yet as he put it, Khelvaster being scum and Khelvaster having a bad idea aren't necessarily the same. That said, I feel I should summarize my reasons for voting a little. Khelvaster made a lot of mentions of wanting to know if anyone wasn't in the fellowship. He also brought up the point that not everybody is a power role. Now I may be seeing a false connection here, but recently I got the feeling that Khelvaster wanted names of fellowship people under the assumption that they would be power roles. I'll have to go back later and reread everybody's posts, though I probably won't get that done for a few days since I'm playing my awesome new video games.

[Matt_S]

I'll have to go back later and reread everybody's posts, though I probably won't get that done for a few days since I'm playing my awesome new video games.

100% irrelevant but what are the new games?

No More Heroes, Advance Wars: Days of Ruin, and Mario Party 8. Despite the different demographics they target, I find all of them fun.

On topic: I still stand by my stance against you if Khelvaster comes up scum. However, until then,

unFoS eljcko

, since I reacted pretty quickly. Speaking of Khelvaster,

Unvote

just so the day doesn't end too quick. More people seem to find Khelvaster scummy than just who's voting for him, so I don't want a quick bandwagon to end this too quickly. Once things die down the vote goes back though. As for ting, I'd like to hear what he has to say, since you make some good points.

[Matt_S]

Moving off of the lurky lynch, he says "the more I think about it, the more likely it is he's town, but since you all are voting for him, why not?"

The logic that Matt_S seems to be missing seems pretty obvious to me:

1. I'm Fellowship.
2. If I'm Fellowship, there are probably other Fellowship roles out there.
3. If there are other Fellowship roles out there, there is a possibility that all nine are out there.
4. If there are nine Fellowship roles, they are the town.

That's not even hard to follow. Khelvaster readjusted his attacking points, but that is the logic flow of it, in a nutshell.

unvote, vote Matt_S

I think Matt_S got lucky, in that CoolBot came out as a non-Fellowship-er before he had to make a definitive stand. I think vanilla townie is the safest fake claim a scum can make. I think he is bandwagoning despite admitting that he thinks the actions of Khelvaster are more likely those of a townie. Is this the part where I type DIE SCUM DIE?

Good reasoning except for post 79 by me:

Post 75(which has a typo, I said would when I meant wouldn't >.>)

Other than my post there I can't prove one way or the other. But let me ask you this: Where would we be if I came out immediately after Khelvaster's post and said I didn't have a name? As I've said before, the reason I didn't do this was I wanted to see how people would react, thinking the people for the claim would be scum. If I had said I had no name, then the scum wouldn't have to claim and potentially get caught lying. As for the logic that you say is easy to follow, try looking from my perspective:

1. I'm a townsman with no name and no powers
2. Other people without powers are townsmen without names
3. If someone has a name, they aren't vanilla, a.k.a. power roles or possibly lying scum.
4. Everyone who asks for a name claim has a name or is scum.

It's pretty much the same as Khelvaster's logic, just using what I thought instead. Yeah, it was shown to be false, but so was Khelvaster's logic. It doesn't change the fact that at the time there was no reason to think either was false. I still think Khelvaster's assumption that we could end the game in 3 days without danger was suspicious, since I assume that a mod would know that would be no fun for either side.

And lurky lynch? I don't remember suggesting a lynch on him. I said vote for him, as in force him not to lurk.

You are incredibly wrong, Matt. What I'm saying is that being in the fellowship won't affect whether you are a power role or not. Thus, I doubt there are 9 powerroles. You've been misinterpreting me throughout the whole game, and I'm sick of it. If I saw exactly three people say they weren't in the fellowship, we would win because the 9 townies were in the fellowship.

I've had it with your putting words into my mouth. Vote: Matt

What you say is open to interpretation. It's easy to say after the fact that you meant something else. I don't like it when people think I'm trying to put words in their mouth, but I hate it when people act like they wouldn't do the same when on the attack. So think about this: What would you do if I suggested a mass name claim when you didn't even have a name? What if I got hell for suggesting it? Would you just assume I had the town's best interests in mind?

Since we know there are townies that weren't in the fellowship, voting someone who claims to not be in the fellowship wouldn't be a guaranteed win. Rather than give someone the benefit of the doubt, I chose to press them on it. Are you saying you wouldn't do the same? Up until now I didn't see a satisfactory explanation. Still though, there's no way for you to prove that's what you were thinking, the same way I can't prove what I was thinking.

Off topic: Vista randomly restarted and installed updates while typing this. Boo!
Firefox was nice enough to save my whole post in progress. Yay!

[Matt_S]

It seems I've kind of screwed up. I had questions for Khelvaster, and once I saw that I wasn't the only one suspicious, I figured I'd be able to get some answers. I thought I wouldn't be able to get anything if I was the only one suspicious, so it wasn't until I saw that there was pressure that I decided that voting for Khelvaster would work. It worked in the sense that I got answers, but I don't think I'll ever be able to see things from the same perspective. And I have to thank ting for being able to read my mind and defend me.

I didn't want to vote him at first because I didn't think scum would ask for a mass name claim. The more I thought about it, the more I've been thinking that a townie would ask for one on day 1. I just don't get what Khelvaster's logic would be no matter what side he'd be on, and like you said we really don't have anything else to go on. Right now, this seems like the only good play other than voting Zyrconium for lurking, which we can do later.

You just contradict yourself way too many times. We have had this discussion before. Its reallt pro-town, but I think he's scum.

Again I'll have to point to post 79, where I said that I meant to say wouldn't instead of would. As in, at the time I didn't see why a townie would suggest it.

[Matt_S]

I feel sorry for Imat for having to read through all this confusion.

[Matt_S]

I just remembered something. Back in post 28, I mentioned that something CoolBot said made me nervous. At the time I didn't say what it was. It was the fact that he said he wasn't in the Fellowship. Nothing about not having a name, just that he wasn't in the Fellowship. Of course I didn't specifically say that I had no name, but I was trying fish for reactions. Yet CoolBot mentioned that he wasn't Fellowship when coming to my defense. I'd think that he'd explain that not everybody had names, but he just said that he wasn't in the Fellowship. At the time, it made me even more paranoid. Right now, it's something that people may want to look back at. It's not exactly mind blowing evidence, but the way he worded his post seemed odd to me.

[Matt_S]

Imat: I'm not voting for anybody.

[Matt_S]

Imat: I said that I could see how Khelvaster was suspicious. I saw that other people also found him suspicious. I voted him. I didn't want to vote him if I didn't think people would be open to my point of view.

Khelvaster: Before I voted for you, what made you think I was trying to get you lynched, other than the fact that I said I found you suspicious?

[Matt_S]

I agree that going, 'but xxxx is scummy because of yyyyy. You make me suspicious, FOS: xxxxx' is a scummy thing to do. Trying to get someone lynched without actually being on the wagon.

What Matt did, was, 'xxxxx is scummy because of yyyyyy. But then, why did xxxxx do zzzzzz? Scum wouldn't do that... I need to think a bit.' Which I think is not scummy enough to raise a vote for.

Scum wouldn't do that, he says, but then he went and wanted me to be lynched. That's the prbolem.

Voting for a person and wanting to lynch a person aren't necesarily the same. Other than me voting you and saying you were suspicious, what makes you think I wanted you to get lynched?

[Matt_S]

Khelvaster: What made you mention Nazgul in post 8 of this game? Was there some flavour text indicating this that has since been removed by the mod? Or did you just assume that the scum would be the Nazgul?

I'm pretty sure he just assumed the scum was partly Nazgul. I say partly because I seem to remember the mod mentioning Saruman as leading the scum.

Everybody: If you have any specific questions of me, just ask. It makes it easier to defend myself because it tells me what people don't get rather than me having to explain everything.

[Matt_S]

On a related note, however, Matt_S does not claim "unnamed" until after the theme gets pulled. Up until that point, he had merely said there was something in his PM that only vanilla townies would know. Can you read and infer that he's saying "we have no name?" It's possible. But it's also possible that he was hedging his bets and hoping that no one would keep pushing.

Truth. I was trying too hard to catch scum. I didn't want to give scum too many clues. But I did say this:

If you got the same pm as me, it should be obvious why having everyone say their name wouldn't work at all.

In other words, a name claim won't work because vanillas were unnamed(or so I thought). The more people seemed to have no idea what I was talking about, the more I hinted at it. And unless my memory has failed, nobody else has actually claimed unnamed either. It's always been my worry that the mod was screwing with me.

What, have I gotten a different PM than everyone else or something?

A little later I PMed the mod to confirm that I wasn't supposed to have a name. He confirmed that I was nameless.

I don't have anything else to say to defend myself because I never thought I'd be the one under suspicion.

[Matt_S]

I concur with eljcko's post:

And, my thoughts on Matt_S's role remain undecided. He may be vanilla, he may be scum. He shows flashes of both.

So let's lynch him (Matt_S) and find out.

You seem very adament on lynching Matt. Why?

Yeah, why?

[Matt_S]

I don't see what we gain by stopping the wagon on Matt. He hasn't really explained his actions, nor has he claimed. All we know is he doesn't have a name, but beyond that, it's speculation. Surely, he's part of a group like Gondor or Rohan. At the very least, we should hear what it is before moving on.

Sorry if I'm a little behind on this, but what actions have I yet to explain?

And I did claim when I explained my position on the name claim. Unless you mean I haven't claimed a power role, in which case I find it pretty twisted that you're pushing my wagon just for that.

[Matt_S]

What makes you think he's in a group like Gondor or Rohan if he's unnamed?

Well, it seems more likely than being just some guy from Middle Earth. I don't believe Matt has been fully honest, and he hasn't claimed despite being only a couple votes from a lynch. I think he's laying low, hoping this blows over. This is especially evident in his tactic of leaving vague hints and only telling us what they mean after someone says something concrete

Finally, I haven't seen any convincing explanation of his quick turn around in post 70. Until I get one or he claims, my vote isn't moving.

And I did claim when I explained my position on the name claim. Unless you mean I haven't claimed a power role, in which case I find it pretty twisted that you're pushing my wagon just for that.

Just so you don't have to look back, I'm vanilla.

[Matt_S]

My role pm says I'm a townsman who's in the fellowship.

[Matt_S]

My role pm doesn't give a name; the closest thing is that it says I'm a townsman. Fellowship means pro-town.

[Matt_S]

When YOU said fellowship, I thought you meant the book's and movie's fellowship people.

[Matt_S]

Sorry for the double post; I forgot to respond to Matt

When YOU said fellowship, I thought you meant the book's and movie's fellowship people.

Uh, I did. Until this exchange between us, that's what I thought everyone was talking about when they used the word "fellowship". And it's what you implied way back on page 1. An earlier clarification would of been helpful.

So, did your pm say anything about the fellowship?

[Matt_S]

Ting, could you explain your suspicions of eljko? I haven't really gotten any vibes from him, either way, so I'd like to see what I missed.

I, too, would like to hear this. I've been slightly suspicious of him at times, but I've gotten more of a town read overall from eljcko.

[Matt_S]

Post removed.

[Matt_S]

Did the mod delete a post of Matt's? What happened there? A brief explanation from someone who knows what is going on would be good.

I said a little too much about my role pm I guess. I tried to explain where the whole "fellowship" thing came into my pm.

[Matt_S]

Page 12 Vote Count!

Votes required:

7 to lynch

3, Eljcko

-

Destructor, ting =), massive

2, Matt_s

-

Khelvaster, Talitha

2, Talitha

-

Qman, crazy_vlad

Not Voting:

7, Petunho, Matt_S, eljcko, crazy_vlad, Imat, massive, Coolbot

I'll wait for a new vote count before joining back in.

[Matt_S]

Vote ting

Not that I don't appreciate your help, but you seriously are trying to get a lot of info about everyone's roles. I'd personally prefer to drop the name thing since it's no longer a part of the game, and there's better things to figure out than if someone's a named non-fellowship.

[Matt_S]

I don't know whether to call you a scum or a power role.

Fishing much?

Oh, and I'd like it if people didn't nameclaim until I get a satisfactory explanation from Khelvaster. If it wasn't for the fact that you could be a power ,I'd vote for you now.

Just in case you weren't clear in the previous post that you want to know if this person is a power role?

So I'll say this: Whoever's the doc, protect Khelvaster. Whoever's the cop, investigate Khelvaster.

Good lord, if I'd been here from the beginning my vote would have been on you for certain by now.

I take it that you can't see things from my original perspective of "only power roles have names"? And I am forbidden from asking someone why they are doing something that I think would hurt the town?

[Matt_S]

Other than the fact that Talitha wanted to lynch me, I don't think she's scummy. I certainly don't see any underhandedness. However, I'm not fully convinced about eljcko. For now,

FoS eljcko

Mod:

Can we get a prod on eljcko?

[Matt_S]

Imat: Why wait until tomorrow to explain your suspicions? If you're dead tomorrow, then we'll have an assload of WIFOM.

[Matt_S]

After a while I thought that my unnamed townsmanness was the mod being a bastard. Now the fact that a second person is the same seems to go against most of what's happened. I can't say I believe eljcko's claim, especially when he admits that it is very convenient. At this point I think an eljcko lynch would be the best option.

[Matt_S]

I prefer the phrase "lightly paraphrased" since it wasn't really a direct quote. However, I'll say this: I could have quoted my safeclaim. It doesn't really prove I'm town. But yeah, I claimed unnamed fellowship townsman.

[Matt_S]

I'm curious why the cop wanted to kill me to find out my alignment
However, I notice that Imat was one of the people who joined the Talitha wagon, after our friendly SK. I'll have to reread this later, because I'm overdue for rereads in lots of other games right now.

[Matt_S]

I don't think we can learn a whole lot from guessing who killed who. However, I will say that I think CoolBot was killed by crazy_vlad just because I have a hard time seeing a vig kill CoolBot.

[Matt_S]

Vote: Matt_S

I looked at CoolBot's accusations, and it looks to me like he had it in for Matt_S fairly hard because he thought the unnamed fellowship was a safeclaim. This would be a really bad thing for scum if it got out, so that's probably why he was killed.

?

Coolbot,

Mafia Godfather,

killed night 1

???

[Matt_S]

In the context of Coolbot saying he was named fellowship, and turning up scum, i'll believe i was right. the setup of all town fellowship is retarded and you can't convince me otherwise.

Scum fakeclaiming fellowship != traitors in the fellowship

And still waiting for Khelvaster to respond.

[Matt_S]

Why? Do you think coolbot looked townie-ish?

Compared to the other two victims, yes.

[Matt_S]

I'm not suspicious of Khelvaster because his actions would only be understandable if he (a) had a named role and (b) his named role was a member of the Fellowship. Otherwise his plan to "break the mod" by nameclaiming has absolutely no point.

Or he's scum with a safe claim who thinks he can break the mod in favor of the scum. Why do you ignore this possibility?

[Matt_S]

Because I think it's a huge, unnecessary gamble for a scum with a safeclaim to make. If you're scum with a safeclaim, you STILL want to lay as low as possible and keep all the role names from coming out -- otherwise, the first time a scum turns up dead, the town has a pretty good idea that scum have safeclaims and invalidates the whole thing.

Also, there's this: If Khelvaster is scum and DOESN'T know the safeclaims of his scum buddies, then his play is doubly dangerous, as he could potentially out his buddies. If Khelvaster is scum and DOES know the safeclaims of his scum buddies, then he knows CoolBot has a "named non-Fellowship" safeclaim, and wouldn't come up with the idea. Cogito ergo not scum.

Did CoolBot really claim named non-Fellowship?

There are nine people in the Fellowship. In the novel, they all of names, and from khel's actions, it seems pretty clear that he has a name and is part of the Fellowship.

Fellowship means pro-town.

This doesn't really make sense considering your actions. When I said I wasn't part of the Fellowship, you said:

While it's comforting to learn that I'm not alone,

I don't get this. If you are part of the Fellowship, how did anything I said convince you that you weren't alone? I never said I had no name and I specifically said I wasn't in the Fellowship.

My PM does not specifically say that the Fellowship is the Town; it says a lot of stuff about conquering the baddies, but it doesn't say anything about the Fellowship.

That's more or less what mine says too. That's why this townsman in the fellowship stuff confuses me. If anyone is named, I have to believe it's those in the fellowship.

He says he wasn't fellowship. He never really claims named from what I remember, because he really avoided that. Then the second quote seems to be saying that he's not named, since fellowship people are more likely to be those with names. There's no guarantee that what CoolBot was going with was his safeclaim, if he even had one.

Now I ask this. Do you have any evidence for Khelvaster being a townie that isn't WIFOM?

[Matt_S]

I believe that, in order for him to even POSIT that the entire town might have the roles listed in his very first post, he MUST be one of them himself. That's not WIFOM.

Or he has a safeclaim of one of the roles. The whole "scum wouldn't do that" is what makes it WIFOM.

[Matt_S]

Yeah, it'll be nice to hear from them. I've got a feeling this massive/Qman discussion won't get us anywhere.

[Matt_S]

Matt_S, Khelvaster:

Please, by all means, tell us who YOU think is suspicious.

Like I said some time ago, I'm waiting for Khelvaster to explain his first post of the day. And now that he's posted again without doing so, I think I'll

vote Khelvaster

.

[Matt_S]

Obviously you think that he either (a) failed to read that CoolBot was the Mafia Godfather or (b) is scum and completely forgot that CoolBot was his Godfather. Which do you think is more likely?

I was actually wondering if he meant something else entirely and just failed at language. Or he intentionally made that mistake. I figured he'd be the kind of guy who would read the dead guy's alignment, so I'm leaning away from a.

[Matt_S]

Sorry about being such a lazy Moderator Vote Count!

Votes required:

5 to lynch

Qman

-

massive

massive

-

destructor

Not Voting:

6, Imat, Matt_S, Qman, Mert, Ting =), Khelvaster

unvote

. I'm going to have to wait for Mert now. I want to hear some of his updated suspicions, since I was unimpressed yesterday.

[Matt_S]

Vote Mert. Mod:

prod Mert plz. I thought there would be more activity day 2.

[Matt_S]

EBWOP: I'm stupid. The mod already prodded him.

[Matt_S]

@Matt, khel.

Why did you two feel that coolbot was more town-ish than talitha?

Mainly the fact that Talitha was so intent on lynching me
Granted, CoolBot was against me too, but he used logic which I'm more comfortable with.

[Matt_S]

Heh, I just noticed that Qman disappeared. I'd like to hear what he has to say.

Mod:

can you prod Qman?

[Matt_S]

Whoa, watch this game go by at blazing speed. I'm tempted to do a crazy vote just to get things going. In fact, I will

Unvote, Vote massive

to get answers faster. I'm right now thinking that one of destructor and massive is scum, simply because they seem smart enough to be beyond distancing like this. Especially when there are probably strictly better options. Or both of them are misled townies.

[Matt_S]

It is Occam's Razor -- the simplest explanation. There's no secondary, circular assumptions being made to make it WIFOM, so maybe you can explain? I'll try and be concise.

I'm not suspicious of Khelvaster. There's no reason, for me, to believe that there are safeclaims in this game, so there's no reason to view Khelvaster's actions as anything short of townie, albeit probably misguided.

What would it take to convince you of the mafia having safeclaims? One of them coming out and saying it? That isn't going to happen. You know, you could just as easily assume that there is never a cop in a mafia game, so that anyone who claims cop must be scum. That's Occam's Razor as well. All vanilla is simpler than vanilla and powers.

Using safeclaims to question Khelvaster's innocence, now THAT is WIFOM.

You're assuming that Khelvaster is confirmed town again, and destroying our ability to refute your assumption. That's not very nice.

It's also fasinating to watch Matt_S play so positively scummy and have to give HIM a free pass because the mod deleted his role claim and confirmed his townieness.

Yeah, you're ignoring the possibility of safeclaims there. I never wanted a free pass.

[Matt_S]

I don't know if the mafia have safeclaims or not. All I'm saying is that, so far, there is no reason for me to assume that the mafia have safeclaims. Using "the mafia have safeclaims" as a logical step to prove or disprove any argument, therefore, is ridiculous.

I'm not saying Khelvaster is confirmed town OR destroying your ability to refute my assumption. I'm saying that using "the mafia have safeclaims" is a ridiculous way to do so. You want to talk about Khelvaster being scummy? Use real proof from the actual game thread, not some supposed metagame state that may or may not be true.

Yeah, from the beginning I've said that Khelvaster's actions didn't make much sense. I think it would be justified if I was suspicious of him, especially considering his lackluster performance so far today. You saying that scum don't have safeclaims shouldn't make him any more protown.

Hopping on this bandwagon to use safeclaims as an argument DOES NOT WIN YOU POINTS.

Why do you think I'm voting for you? Do you think I'm trying to get your approval? The fact is, I find your logic about safeclaims to be unsatisfactory. The possibility of safeclaims shouldn't be used as evidence, but that doesn't mean we have to pretend that the mafia doesn't have them when we interpret people's actions.

[Matt_S]

It sounds a lot like we're all saying the same things over an over again. But I'll say this one last time. Assuming that there are no safeclaims isn't the way to interpret people's actions.

[Matt_S]

I'm not saying that you should assume there are safeclaims, just that you have to accept it as a real possibility. I'm continuing to lean towards the scum watching us destroy each other.

Unvote
Mod:

Please prod ting, Imat, and Qman. And how's the search for Mert's replacement?

[Matt_S]

Then he states "I'll probably be NKed" in the same post as "To all vanillas: be VERY careful about how much you reveal from your pm. We can use this info to prove innocence later on." If you claim Vanilla, why would you be so worried about being NKed?

Because mafia like killing people who others think are town? Granted, people

didn't

think I was town, but that's not how I expected things to go.

"I don't see a power role voting someone who claims to fear for the power roles' safety." You weren't actually worried about Khel's safety during the Night? Did you know he wouldn't be the target?

I can't figure out why you think I didn't expect Khelvaster to be NK'd. Please elaborate.

Then you FoS Ting and GSGold because they "Don't know the same things I (Matt) do." Succeeded by your suspicions of an evil Mod.

I'll say it once more. I thought all vanilla townies knew what I knew, and I thought I made it clear that power roles should be careful about what they say.

I find it funny that you argue for Khel being a Power Role but don't even consider anyone else to be. Perhaps Khel is the Townie and Ting and GSGold are the PR's...

If you knew anything about my early stance, you would know that I thought regular townies wouldn't have names. I didn't think the others were power roles because they didn't act the way I'd expect a power role to act when people are dealing with the issue of a mass nameclaim.

But the worst part of post 28 is your completely noncommital accusations of Coolbot. To me, they looked like preparation for the need to distance in the future.

And if you had read further into the game, I explained why I didn't like the way he worded his post.

This does not confirm you in any way

K. I really don't give a damn

I'm sure the majority of games have nameless Vanillas. Its a filler role.

Funny how you paid no attention to this earlier.

Matt, from what I gather from the first few pages, you seem to be against the ideas of a Safeclaim. Why, now, do you seem to support them? Especially since they could blend in with the nameless Townies.

What does a mass nameclaim have anything to do with safeclaims?

[Matt_S]

I'd like to hear Imat's followup, as well as ting's thoughts. I'd also like Qman to do something instead of just waiting for Mert's replacement. I don't like the way he was under pressure and then just disappeared when it started letting up.

[Matt_S]

Mod: Could you release the rolenames of the people who have already died? It would really help us.

To clarify for him, the original names before being unthemed.

Waiting for Imat's finished analysis.

[Matt_S]

The whaddya know, it's still the same Vote Count!

Votes required:

5 to lynch

massive

-

destructor,

Qman

-

massive

Not Voting:

5, BridgesAndBalloons, Qman, Shamrock, Ting =), Khelvaster, Matt_S[

Is Matt_S actually confirmed innocent?

Depends on if you believe there's safeclaims

[Matt_S]

Vote Imat

. I don't like being accused of strawmaning, especially when I answered all your points. You also seem to be picking at what I wrote without listening to a damn thing that I've said. You also seem to ignore the concept of pressure votes, as well as the fact that

my vote won't matter if I can't get a majority of the players to agree

. I'll also bring up, again, the fact that you never mentioned anything about those posts prior to now that you found scummy. All you did was fos me or vote me, simply saying that I was scummy. Oh, and I explained why I was for an eljcko lynch.

[Matt_S]

If you won't vote somebody who you think others will vote for, and you won't vote someone if you don't think others will vote them, then when will you vote someone? And if these contradictory statements on your part hold true, why did you vote so much yesterday?

The flaw with your argument is thinking that not wanting a quicklynch is the same as not wanting votes in general. That assumption is obviously false.

And no, you didn't answer to all my posts. You convenietly ignored the fact that I was calling you Scum trying to guess at a reason for the Nameclaim not to work, even though you completely recognized that most Townie roles don't have names. So, there it is. I'm saying you're intelligent Scum who can make a resonable deduction. You seemed to miss that particular point when you went over my other analysis.

Yeah, the only possible response to that is "you're wrong". The fact that I didn't respond that way doesn't mean a damn thing. I can't refute your speculation, only the actual points you make.

And again, if you like pressure votes why did you unvote Khel who had one vote on him instead of keeping pressure on him? Either you believed him to be a Power Role, which is silly because you said many times before that that you didn't, or you didn't actually want pressure on him.

The thing about pressure votes is that just one usually doesn't do a damn thing. When I think my vote can be put to better use, I put it to better use.

I'm trying to hunt Scum here, Matt, and you fit the bill. Comng out with OMGUS doesn't refute the evidence I've stated. True, I've looked at it from the MattScum perspective, but I hardly think the MattTown perspective will hold up.

You seem to ignore the fact that I've refuted all the points in your first analysis, and that your second analysis ignores most of my posts. If it makes you happy, I'll go back and refute every little point you made.

Post 71: Again, this is such a pathetic vote. You give so many reasons for Khel being a Power Role, you even say your gut tells you he is a PR, then yu vote him with the flimsy excuse "I guess he is too fishy to let go..." Whats worse, this comes from CoolBot's persuasion. I can't see Town falling for CB's cased after defending somebody so much. I can see Scum looking at their partner's easy case and following their lead.

Where did I ever say that my gut said Khelvaster was a power role? What reasons did I ever give for him not being scum other than "scum wouldn't do that"?

Post 75: You say we sould vote for Khel because he'sthe best case. Two big things worng with that: 1. You are undecided either way, and 2. Zyrc is lurking, which you openly say you'll give him a free ride for. Usually Lurkers tend to be better cases than someone with no strong feeling either way, wouldn't you say? Also in this post you sa that Khel is associating Fellowship with PR's. Which isn't necessarily true. Certainly if we ony have 2 or 3 Fellowship members Khel would do so, but personally I think he was thinking, and he stated this himself several times, that the game was a 9-3 Town to Scum ratio, so having all 9 Town in the Fellowship wouldn't be unheard of. He was trying to break the game, to find Scum though the easiest method, not to out PR's. Also, is it aother typo which made you say a Townie WOULD try a mass nameclaim on D1? Because that would mean you're leaning Khel for Town, yet you still vote him. Nvm, you explain it as a typo.

Sorry, try again. I never asked anybody else to vote for Khelvaster. The fact that Khelvaster's actions puzzle me is completely irrelevant, and I never said I'd kive Zyrconium a free pass, just that I thought Khelvaster was a better option.

Post 82: Once again you say a Mass Nameclaim "would probably benefit the Town more," yet you say you don't know why someone would call for a Mass Nameclaim or why Khel did, specifically. This seems to me like oyu'r trying to accuse someone with blame you don't truly believe. Which is something Scum do, not Town.

Sorry, try again. I've said many times why I thought that Khelvaster would call for a nameclaim as scum, such as thinking he could find power roles. Again, not being certain about someone's intentions doesn't mean you can't make a case against them.

Post 89: Not much here really, just speculation on my part: You feel the need to summarze your argument against Khel once again. Was this to try to get others to believe your case? Or were you havng your own doubts about it? The action seems Scummy, but not terribly so. And once again you ompletely miss Khel's point in asking for people outside of the Fellowship. You seem to do that a lot.

So I should believe the scummy person's after the fact explanation for his actions with no questions asked? Well that's just stupid.

Post 91: Bad. Very bad. You unFoS Eljcko after having an off-topic discssion with him, then you UnVote Khel becaue you don't want the day to end too quickly. I can understand you Unvoting ifyou didn't believe your case anymoe, or even if he had votes on him, but you fet others would knowlingly quicklynch him if you kept your vote on him. So, beside the obvious fct that if you'reworried about a quicklynch, chances are others are as well and won't do it. However, on the offchance that people do vote him, they wouldn't vote to lynch. Scum might, if they wanted to out themselves for practically nothing, but Town has he same ideas as other Town. Your Unvot was completely unnecessary and, IMO, very Scummy.

Sorry, all I can hear from this is that not wanting a quicklynch is bad. And I never said they would quicklynch him intentionally.

Post 101: See posts 102 and 103. Yea, I'm referring you to posts by two players, Massive and Khel, who both completely disagree with your logic.

Sorry, how does this point to me being scum?

Post 112: You say you wanted answers from Khel, yet you needed to be sure others wouldback you up. Are you so uncertain of your case at this point that yu can't possibly accuse him by yourself?

Again, it takes a majority to lynch. If I don't think I'll get anyone else, then why bother?

Post 130: Can't see this as Town or Scum, it was a bad post either way. If youre Town, which means you weren't lying about being a nameless Vanilla, then CB's not saying he doesn't have a name is just as supicious as you not saying you don't have a name. Which is what you did, BTW. On the other hand, why throw your partner under thebus so quickly with so little pressure? Hence why I can't see this coming from either pespective, quite honestly...

I'm giving my opinion. Is there a problem?

Post 168: Again, you ned anoth player's support to vote somebody? Why not just act on your suspicions, take the lead. If we allwaited for someone else's support, the game would never getanywhere.

Again, if I don't think I can sway people, why bother?

Post 174: I lol'ed at. "Other than me voting you and saying you were suspicious, what makes you think I wanted you to get lynched? " Usually finding someone supicious AND voting them is pretty telling of your desire to see them lynched, at least at that point in time. What makes you hink people want yu lynched, they don't vote you and take great pais not to look into your actions?

Pressure votes. Answers come before lynches.

Post 183: Are your suspicions of Khel gone by now? Because once again you're defending him.

How in the heck is this defending him? I'm answering somebody's question about Khelvaster. Please try harder.

Post 217: After numerous cases against you and suspicionsrunning rampant, you questio why a player wants you lynched? Why question it? The answer is pretty obvous...

1. Talitha made no case. Asking for reasons is in no way scummy. 2. Notice the damn smiley?

Post 232: You state opely that Fellowship implies Town and vice versa. This is completely diferent from your idea of the Fellowship earlier, when you said Fellowship had to be Power Roles, which is what you accused Khel for trying to exploit. When did your view on this change?

Well, it's pretty damn obvious that the Fellowship Khelvaster mentioned was the named people from the books. My PM called me fellowship, but I wasn't anyone from the book. I explain what fellowship means in the context of my PM. Please try harder, because this is just boring.

Post 252: deleted by the Mod, but you post a summary o your role PM. Its possible that you expected the Mod to delete this post and so did't worry about the content. Its possible you guessed at the basic jist of the PM, since this was a summary. Its also possible that you are a Townie and truly though summarizing your Role PM wouldn't gt you in trouble with the Mod and would clear you. Personally, I want to believe the latter is the most likely, but your actions beforehand force me to rethink the validity of it. FTR, I can't remember what was posted in this post, just that you summarized your PM.

You're speculating again. And you're assuming that the mod would delete a random guess about the townie pm.

Post 275: Say you're waitig for a votecount, but don't post for another two days. i something come up IRL? I'm not really accusig you here, it just seems wierd. Like when I said I'd post tomorrow a few days ago and then things came up...

Yeah, I don't always get online every day. Please keep things relevant.

Post 285: You want to drop the whole name thing. I can see this from an Unnamed Vanilla, or from Scum in general, unless they do have Safeclaims.

Funny how this is admittedly a null tell.

Post 328: You condemn Eljcko for not having a name, yet you can't see why people thinking you're Scummy for claiming unnamed?

See, this is why you need to learn to read. Saying "this is just a coincidence, I swear" didn't make his claim look better. Besides, his lack of a name wasn't why I wanted him lynched.

Post 340: "I could have quoted my safeclaim." Now we know why you believe Scum to have safeclaims. Its because you have a Safeclaim! Which inevitably implies you are Scum.

Yes, I point out the fact that I'm not confirmed, so I must be scum for clearing up confusion. Try harder.

Post 353: Did you form any conlusion based on the fact that I voted Talitha for what I thought was Scummy behavior?

I came to a conclusion that a case made by a serial killer probably isn't a good case to follow.

Post 355: Why do you think a Vig wouldnt kill CoolBot? Wasn't he one of the top suspects of Day 1?
Post 373: Ah, this explains it. You felt he looked less Scummy than the other two...

Yeah, I thought Mrs. "I want to lynch this guy just to find his alignment" and Mr. "I'm not providing any real content" were scummy.

Welcome, Shamrock.

[Matt_S]

In fact I wrote out a response to Imat's post but then glanced back at the thread before posting and realized he'd been replaced. I don't know how much of a point there is in carrying over suspicions, so I'm just going to keep my eye on BAB and

Unvote

for now.

Yes, it's an awkward position. I had my eyes on your predecessor as well, but you've been too reasonable for me to hold it against you too much. So I, too, will

unvote

for now, to see how things go.

Mod:

What about Qman? Has he been prodded?

[Matt_S]

Mod: Prod Qman (again?)

. Considering he said he was waiting for Mert's replacement yet still hasn't appeared, I'll

Vote Qman

as well, to give some incentive for him to do something.

[Matt_S]

On a completely different note, why do you want to summarize why your predecessor was scummy?

Did you miss the mod confusion about who replaced who?

[Matt_S]

So I've had a feeling that Qman has been intentionally ignoring this game even after Mert was replaced. Considering he's posted elsewhere since Mert was replaced, I'm going to go with this option.

[Matt_S]

@ Everyone: Votes get the game rolling. I'm going to ask everyone, especially khelvaster, to place a vote. Thank you.

Done =)

[Matt_S]

You have a voice as well as a vote. Besides Qman, who are you suspicious of?

I've got my eye on Shamrock a little still, and his reaction to BridgesAndBaloons' vote was odd. Really, I'm looking at almost everyone, so I'm a little lost until Qman shows up and something happens there.

[Matt_S]

Qman has posted elsewhere earlier today.

Mod:

Has Qman picked up his prod?

My paranoia is telling me that he's responding to his prods by pm.

[Matt_S]

Omg you guys.

Qman, who has been gone from this thread for 28 days... posted yesterday in another game.
Destructor who was gone for 15 days, posted today in another thread today.

Khelv posted today, but he's only been gone for four days. Shamrock last posted 2 days ago.

We have some really bad lurkers, and I'm really tempted to vote for one of them to fish them back.

I've tried this on Qman, but it's not working. I'm really tempted to try and get him lynched.

[Matt_S]

massive, you were role-fishing then? Why would you want the vig to claim? And why is it a point against him if, as a vig, he didn't?

I have to agree with this. If you posted a strong case against him, then I can see him claiming. But expecting a vig to claim at the slightest accusation is just stupid. However, I'm still paranoid and think that Qman is intentionally ignoring this game, so I still suggest lynching him, but massive could potentially be a decent alternative.

[Matt_S]

EEBWOP: Since I believe Matt_S to be town, I would really like his opinion on who he thinks is scummy. Are you fine with a Shamrock Lynch? Are you fine with a Massive lynch?

I'm fine with a Shamrock lynch I suppose. A massive lynch doesn't seem like the best play for today, not when Qman's AWOL. If we hit Shamrock-scum today, then I'd be fine with a massive lynch tomorrow, but otherwise I'd prefer Qman tomorrow.

Unvote

. I'll think about this a bit more first.

I don't believe that we should count a vig who is willing to shoot on day one as necessarily acting in the interest of the town.

What? This would apply to any vig who shoots night 1. And how does the fact that you disagree with vigging on night 1 influence whether you put pressure on a person the next day? There's nothing wrong with shooting at someone that you think is scummy. There's a lot wrong with wanting to get a claim from a vig.

[Matt_S]

What? This would apply to any vig who shoots night 1. And how does the fact that you disagree with vigging on night 1 influence whether you put pressure on a person the next day? There's nothing wrong with shooting at someone that you think is scummy. There's a lot wrong with wanting to get a claim from a vig.

I completely disagree, and this won't be resolved here. I think that any vig that's randomly shooting on Night One should be held accountable for their actions, because they are clearly not working in the interest of the town. Maybe here you guys shoot first and ask questions later, but to me, it's grossly irresponsible.

How's a vig supposed to do things? How do you know it was random? How's a vig supposed to ask questions of people they're going to kill without exposing themselves?

I think I may be starting to change my mind.

[Matt_S]

Ignoring MeMe temporarily...

The what? A vigilante has no business killing on Night One. Any vig who claims that they are so confident that they can kill on Night One is either reckless or grossly and incorrectly overconfident. I'm sorry that you think that it's OK to shoot on night one. I don't.

Why can the town lynch on day 1 if the vig can't kill on night 1?

[Matt_S]

I'd rather not direct the vig, but I'm lazy enough to not try and stop you guys.

[Matt_S]

Why don't you want to direct the vig?

Well, say we vote on who the vig should kill, and we happen to pick the vig. Obviously he won't kill himself. So the next day, the mafia know who the vig is. Alternatively, any kill the vig disagrees with would be a great choice for the mafia to kill the next night. Plus, anything that gives the mafia more influence over our affairs is undesirable.

[Matt_S]

*crosses fingers*

[Matt_S]

I guess no news is good news?

[Matt_S]

I'll go for either a Shamrock or Qman lynch.

And because it's now summer break, I'll be posting less. Yes, it sounds bassackwords, but I can't keep a schedule when I'm free 24/7.

[Matt_S]

Welcome to the game.

[Matt_S]

are you voting me/Qman due to inactivity, or is there another reason?

The inactivity's a part of it, especially since he said he was waiting for a replacement and didn't show up even afterwards. Another part was how Qman just threw massive's accusations aside by simply saying that he "doesn't play that way". However, looking back at the way Shamrock disappeared in a blaze of OMGUS, he does seem like a better vote.

Unvote, Vote Shamrock

. Of course, massive's vig hunting does put him as a close contender, followed kind of close by you. However, the Imat/Shamrock case seems to rely less on the unknown alignment of others.

[Matt_S]

What the heck was going on with Imat and Shamrock? They're the same person, but Imat builds a case against Shamrock?

There was some confusion at first about who replaced who.

[Matt_S]

And don't call me scummy because I believe a vig should be held to a higher degree of responsibility than the town seemingly approves of.

I'm calling you scummy because you believe that pointing out who you think is the vig is a good idea.

[Matt_S]

Hello Guardian.

Damn, why do you have to be so logical? Anyways, other than Imat's poor case against me, and the poor timing of it, there was a comment he made I believe, basically saying that Coolbot was so protown, and he'd be angry if Coolbot turned up scum(this occurred shortly after he said Coolbot was shady). He also made a case for me being scum by stopping a nameclaim, admitted that the same case applied to Coolbot, and then said that he was convinced that Coolbot wasn't scum.

[Matt_S]

I understand what you just wrote, but am unsure how you want me to respond.

Can you phrase a specific question?

I have a first inclination of how to respond even if you can't, but if you could give me some direction that would be great.

Also, what do you think of my thoughts on the other players, particularly Sethaniel?

I can't think of anything questions.

You make good points on everyone else, but I think there's a lot going against you.

[Matt_S]

The thing about Imat's case against me is that he made it on day 2, and based it on lots of things I said on day 1 which he never saw any problems with.

If only the cop and serial killer weren't dead yet, then I could catch you in the act. I'm tempted to give you a shot at Sethaniel, but I'm not sure you being right will change my opinion too much.

[Matt_S]

*except for the being right part. What did you say Matt? Do you mean that if he's right he still can't change your mind? I really didn't understand the part I crossed out.

Well, when I was scum with Guardian, he tried to bus me. That game's been standing out in my mind. If Sethaniel does turn up scum, I'd consider busing a very real possibility.

[Matt_S]

It was Mafia in Vollville. Your cases here remind me a lot of your cases there when you replaced in. The only absence is the claim of serial killer

[Matt_S]

After a quick ctrl+f, massive never really talked to CoolBot. He mentioned his name a lot(especially in regards to me), but never replied to any of his posts. Also interesting is that he random votes for CoolBot.

Unvote, Vote massive

. What's even more interesting is that massive also didn't talk to Imat on day 1. In other words, if massive turns up scum, look out Guardian.

[Matt_S]

1. You never said day 1 that you trusted CoolBot, unless you referred to him by something other than coolbot which my ctrl+f didn't find. You really only ever mentioned CoolBot when attacking me. No mention of trust or anything. You still talked about eljcko, ting, destructor, and others at some point in the day.
2. I never quoted my pm, and the mod never confirmed me.
3. I never mentioned Khelvaster, so I don't know if that's supposed to be directed at me.

[Matt_S]

I honestly think the vig fishing alone makes massive a good target. The interaction with CoolBot is just circumstantial icing on the scumcake.

[Matt_S]

Are you accusing me of faking mod text?

[Matt_S]

You've continuously done scummy things the entire game and the ONLY thing that has saved you from being lynched has been the fact that we all believed that the mod deleted your role PM quote. You are now saying that is not the case despite saying "Oops I guess I quoted too much of my role PM" immediately after it happened. I don't think you faked it, I'd like to think you would be modkilled for faking mod text -- although who knows with the way our original mod was willing to go to great lengths to prevent your lynch. So why don't you go ahead and tell us what exactly happened in that post that required the mod to edit your post?

I never said it wasn't deleted. I said it doesn't confirm me. And it wasn't a quote of my pm. If I had to guess, I'd say it was deleted for making references to the theme when the theme was supposed to be gone. However, I must say that you're trying pretty hard to discredit me instead of the case against you.

[Matt_S]

Diliyo.

Massive, what I'm reading from your posts is that you think CoolBot should have lied about my post or otherwise turned it against me if I were town. I think it's obvious why he wouldn't lie, and continuing to push my wagon would be a bad thing.

In my opinion, it was only his copypasta and deletion (and CoolBot saying "he's confirmed") that prevented it.

It's funny that you say that, because you unvoted before CoolBot said a thing.

[Matt_S]

ting, why are you still pushing a Guardian lynch?

I think the answer to this question is pretty obvious.

[Matt_S]

I want members of the town to respond to what I said about Empking/Khelvaster.

It's an interesting theory, but it involves reading his mind too much. And now the waiting game.

[Matt_S]

If Guardian is telling the truth, I can see why he did what he did. The potential problem is that we have a two man scumgroup left. And I definitely would have unvoted a claimed doc if I had gotten there in time. I'm presently leaning towards a destructor lynch for reasons I will clarify later.

[Matt_S]

CoolBot never talked to destructor. Destructor asked a direct question of CoolBot on day 1 about whether he thought I fake claimed. Right before this question, destructor said he didn't like CoolBot's wagon hop. So not only did CoolBot never answer the question, but destructor never did anything about his apparent suspicions.

[Matt_S]

CoolBot never talked to destructor. Destructor asked a direct question of CoolBot on day 1 about whether he thought I fake claimed. Right before this question, destructor said he didn't like CoolBot's wagon hop. So not only did CoolBot never answer the question, but destructor never did anything about his apparent suspicions.

No comments, people?

[Matt_S]

I'm actually leaning more towards a Guardian lynch now. If Guardian's scum then there's no way he'd do this if he were the only one left. If Guardian's town, there's still a chance that it's not lynch or lose. Lynching Guardian seems to have a better expected outcome.

[Matt_S]

regarding massive's role: I thought this was supposed to be a mini normal? Is "a doctor who learns who targeted their night choice" a normal role?

If it's just a watcher/doc combo like it sounds, then I think that's okay since both roles alone are viable.

[Matt_S]

I'm still here, but I can't think of anything to add. I think a Guardian lynch has a better expected outcome.

[Matt_S]

I believe that lynching destructor is more likely to end up as a loss. Lynching you first makes sense to me.

[Matt_S]

I believe that lynching destructor is more likely to end up as a loss. Lynching you first makes sense to me.

why, other than expected outcome?

Why is using expected outcome bad? I don't see that great of a difference between your scumminess, so the guy whose lynch appears to have better odds of leading to a win should be lynched.

Guardian, why did you target destructor anyways?

I'm going to request a mass claim here, but first I'd like people's opinions.

[Matt_S]

I'm pretty flabbergasted that you are planning to lynch me and haven't seen that I responded to both these points already.

I missed the thing about investigating people, but I've already seen your speech about how optimizing the chance of winning is apparently bad. You haven't said that I've miscalculated the expected outcomes, just that I shouldn't. That doesn't make sense. So can you give any links to support your investigating habits?

[Matt_S]

Look.

You are saying we should lynch me, because if I am scum, then there are definitely 2 scum left. This assumes that there can be two scum left.

If there can be two scum left, and I am town, lynching me loses instantly.

So, you were wrong, and lynching me to prevent losing to a two man scum group with me in it would be quite foolish, and I've seen little other reasoning lately from anyone but desperate destructor about why I've been suspicious, and if a two man scum group is plausible it is just as plausible that destructor is in a two man scum group as the notion that I would be in one (except that I'm NOT in a scum group).

You're missing something somewhere. It's NOT equally plausible for you and destructor being part of a two-man scum group. If you're scum, then you ARE in a two man scum group. If destructor's scum, then he could still be alone. A destructor mislynch ENDS THE GAME. A Guardian mislynch can potentially get us to another day, and if it does then we win. Now, let's assume that only one of you two is scum, .5 probability for you and .5 for destructor. Let's call the probability of a two man scum group x, where x is greater than .5. The events of you being scum and of there being two scum left are not independant. If you're scum, the probability of there being a two man scum group left is 1. If destructor is scum, the probability of there being a two man scum group left is 2x-1. Unless x is 1, you have a higher chance of being deadly scum than destructor.

And Imat gives plenty of reasons for you to be more probable scum than destructor. Now answer destructor.

[Matt_S]

I don't see how a destructor claim today will be any worse than a destructor claim tomorrow, and the claim today has benefits seeing as you are the alternative to a Guardian lynch. I recommend claiming today.

[Matt_S]

Why is ting higher up on your scum list than Sethaniel? That makes no sense.

[Matt_S]

Guardian: Do you think there's some reason why your claim should be super believable? Because I don't see how out skepticism is surprising.

[Matt_S]

Blah blah, no access til Sunday, blah blah posting this in all my games.

[Matt_S]

Empking targeting destructor could explain the lack of a vig kill. I'm ready to push for a Guardian lynch. I made the mistake of backing down from Guardian yesterday to try and get a better read, but my mind hasn't changed. Now, we can mass claim or something, or we can just get straight to lynching someone. Imat was plenty scummy to be lynched, Guardian has reminded me of his scum side, and his claim sounds too unplausible. Notethat even if Guardian is scum, this whole thing could be a bussing attempt. However, we'll get to that if it comes down to it.

[Matt_S]

I've got a question of my own. Guardian: Are you going to track ting?

[Matt_S]

EBWOP: assuming we don't lynch you for some reason, that is.

[Matt_S]

I don't want you to promise to track anyone. I just want you to think about who you'd track. I'm getting largely uncomfortable with six total players. Given Guardian's claimed role, I'm thinking about a no lynch.

[Matt_S]

well, I don't see any point in no lynching, as I'd be really surprised if there is yet ANOTHER power role, and if we don't lynch destructor he'll obviously make the kill, so there won't be anything new for me to track.

I'm more interested in seeing the death. Any trackings are a bonus.

Of course, now I have to ask why you'd be willing to track ting, and who you were planning to track anyways.

[Matt_S]

Who was I planning to track? BAB or Sethaniel or ting =). Seeing ting =) not kill or either of them kill would be most telling.

Hmm...

Well, this is pretty consistent with your earlier stance. Now the trouble is that the case on destructor is that you tracked him and that he lurked. The former is a matter of trust. The latter is ironic considering Zyrconium's 0 posts, Imat's 31 posts, and Shamrock's 6 posts. If the result came from almost anyone else, the choice would be obvious. Considering that I'd probably be the one killed for real this time, a no lynch probably wouldn't help. I'm still leaning towards a Guardian lynch, with the buddy probably being Sethaniel.

[Matt_S]

Again, the where you bussed me really sticks in my mind. I'm getting a lot of vibes that remind me of your scum incarnation rather than your town incarnation. I can't give specific instances, but I can ask this. What would you have done if massive wasn't at L-1 when he claimed?

[Matt_S]

Hey, this hurts me more than it hurts you.

[Matt_S]

That's unnecessary. Even without meta, I'd probably still choose you. You say destructor tried to lurk through the game, but by the end of May, destructor had 38 posts, and you and your predecessors combined had 42 posts by that time, 5 of them belonging to you and being mostly catchup posts. Add everything ting has said about Imat and that you claim something which contradicts what a claimed townie said, and you'd see that you just seem to be a better choice. Remember again how you aren't alone if you're scum. You are just the better lynch. Now, since a no lynch would just get me killed, we should either mass claim, or lynch someone.

[Matt_S]

Guardian, you seem to have missed the parts of my post that weren't related to meta. Your predecessors posted with pretty much the same frequency as destructor, so you can't make a case against him about lurking. And Imat has a much stronger connection to CoolBot than destructor does. You didn't comment on any of that and instead just posted your annoyance with my meta on you. No amount of meta will change my mind. You'll be my lynch choice unless you can refute the points against you or make a real case against destructor.

Just because the SK was unNKable doesn't mean he didn't have some other powers, such as kill unstoppability, investigation immunity, or both. If you're going to talk about a lack of balance, you should mention the cop, tracker, docwatcher, and vig that you claim all exist.

[Matt_S]

Matt_S, an UNNK townie is more powerful than a tracker. Much so. If the town believes an UNNK the scum can never ever ever get rid of him. If you think tracker unbalances the setup, UNNK does even more.

I disagree because of the possibility of the SK having kill unstoppability. Additionally, you claim to have caught scum, while destructor hasn't even stopped a scum kill, and you say he's more broken than you. I don't buy that. And even if everyone did believe an unNKable townie, that doesn't mean anything. If a townie can convince everyone that he's unNKable, then scum should also be able to convince people that they are just an unNKable townie.

And you seem to have missed the rest of my post again.

[Matt_S]

I think it's been established that an unNKable townie doesn't want to claim his role, but claiming a name is entirely different. As destructor said himself, claiming his name would probably draw a night kill at some point.

[Matt_S]

Guardian: You accuse destructor of lurking yet ignore your predecessors' lurking. That's what I want you to respond to.

[Matt_S]

Cost-benefit analysis: what do either guardian or des gain from lying to us today?

if we lynch des and he's town, we'll know guardian's scum and lynch him tomorrow.

if we lynch guardian and he's town, we'll figure des was lying and lynch him tomorrow.

Do both of these scenarios seem to suggest that there are two scum left, or only guardianscum?

If Guardian's the only scum left, he's dead meat, so we can assume that if he's scum, then he has a partner. Destructor could have a partner, but it's not certain. I've used this point before, but Guardian hasn't acknowledged it as legitimate.

[Matt_S]

I don't see how you think destructor is more likely to be scum, but whatever, it's your vote. I suppose I might as well

Vote Guardian

. We're not getting anywhere new, and I'm tired of Guardian ignoring my points. So now what BAB said about being careful applies even more since both guys are at L-2.

[Matt_S]

Cost-benefit analysis: what do either guardian or des gain from lying to us today?

if we lynch des and he's town, we'll know guardian's scum and lynch him tomorrow.

if we lynch guardian and he's town, we'll figure des was lying and lynch him tomorrow.

Do both of these scenarios seem to suggest that there are two scum left, or only guardianscum?

If Guardian's the only scum left, he's dead meat, so we can assume that if he's scum, then he has a partner. Destructor could have a partner, but it's not certain. I've used this point before, but Guardian hasn't acknowledged it as legitimate.

It is NOT legitimate.

Destructor could be in a 3 man scum group, in which case lynching me loses immediately.

Consider: if I am indeed town, the town had a tracker, a cop, a doctor-watcher, and a vigilante. There was also an SK in the game. Do you think such a game would be likely to hold only 2 mafia? Granted shakaa was a bad mod, but to conjecture that there were only 2 maifa seems a tad unreasonable, at least inasmuch as you are using it to determine that voting me is the best course of action.

WAY TO READ THE GAME! I've acknowledged that fact from the very beginning, but you seem to be intent on ignoring me and only trying to survive. I've said ALL THE TIME that destructor COULD have a buddy if he's scum. However, you HAVE a buddy if you are scum. SEE THE DIFFERENCE? If you actually used logic every so often I might be inclined to not lynch you. For example, your defense of Imat wasn't logical. "He had no malice"? How nice it was for you to make that decision for us. And just to make sure, I read through your posts to see your case on destructor, and all I see is "zomg he lurked" and "trust me over him". I point again to your predecessors. You now seem to be saying that because destructor continued to stay in the game, he's scummier than them? You are strongly supporting this lynch all lurkers position, despite the illogical nature of it. I will never support lynch all lurkers because it is the worst thing I can do for town. Now, I HIGHLY suggest that you make a case on destructor that doesn't involve lurking or your role if you want me to change my vote.

[Matt_S]

Unvote
Vote: Sethaniel

Question mark?

[Matt_S]

unvote

*waits for destructor to splain himself*

[Matt_S]

You did exactly what I was afraid I would do. However, everything you say adds up. Sethaniel and all his predecessors have 54 posts, and you have 81. However, the fact that you're pushing for someone's lynch other than the person who claims to have evidence that you're scum is unnerving. However, I don't think this would be a tactic of someone who has a buddy. I still want to

Vote Guardian

.

[Matt_S]

I still haven't seen anything form you about why destructor is scum that doesn't involve lurking and trusting that you aren't scum. The lurking part is now irrelevant. I don't think destructor would do this if he had a buddy because it only prolongs the day and gives more time to find his potential buddy.

[Matt_S]

I still haven't seen anything form you about why destructor is scum that doesn't involve lurking and trusting that you aren't scum.

Having a case of deafness and/or blindness?

The MOST recent of the numerous times I've argued for destructor being scum not based on lurking or me being town was post 858.

I think this lynch should be correctly figure-out-able by dint of destructor's claimed role. UNnk-able townie just doesn't make much sense. First of all, like I've said, does it make any sense at all that the town has an UNnk-able role and the

one man only team, who has to survive the whole game with two other killing roles, the SK, was NK-able while a random townie wasn't

??? Shakaa was pretty bad, but how could a mod conceive of that being even remotely close to fair?

Second, des hasn't played in accordance with that role at all. UNnk-able townie should play as the most vocal (and hopefully town looking) player in the game. Granted that is not always possible, but destructor's hanging back is complete opposite of how you'd expect this role to play. That role desperately wants to be targeted at night by scum, and destructor's play just doesn't match up to that.

In addition -- some have noted his agreeing with the mass claim as making sense. To me it looks like scum who have a powerful fake claim (Frodo, perchance?) and possibly a partner who's almost confirmed themselves by mimicking the townie role PM.

And UNnk-able townie should vehemently oppose a role claim -- once claimed, the UNnk-able townie loses a lot of its utility, and since UNnkT is such a powerful role, losing one of its two main draws (sucking in scum NKs) by mass claiming is a pretty poor play. Sure an UNnkT has the other possible power of being confirmed somehow, and then never being lynched or killed, but that's not much good at all if all the other power roles are dying around you, as would happen in a mass claim.

Also, comparing destructor to Imat: Imat's unsureness and towards the end peripheral play can be explained by disinterest. He got replaced. Destructor stuck it through and lurked, and lurked, and lurked some more. Who wins by lurking? Scum.

I've made many arguments for why destructor is scum. You've just ignored them. I'm going to re-read the game and see if you really are 100% confirmed... because you are confirmed via claiming townie first and CoolBot confirming that your role PM == the townie role PM...

As much as I'd convinced myself you are confirmed innocent, I can't see a townie blissfully keeping his head in the sand as much as you.

Also:

You did exactly what I was afraid I would do.

Huh?

Why were you afraid you'd do it?

The lurking part is now irrelevant.

That's not true at all. He lurked during day 1 and 2, and didn't get replaced, indicating he lurked as a strategy. Lurking as a strategy is a point against him. I've been over this.

I don't think destructor would do this if he had a buddy because it only prolongs the day and gives more time to find his potential buddy.

You are making so many assumptions that I don't see as justified I don't even know where to begin. First, who says Sethaniel isn't destructor's partner? Second, who says destructor logically thought this through? Third, why would prolonging the day be bad for destructor? Fourth, why do you think this action was designed to prolong the day?

Those are just the easiest four to mention...

1. I've already mentioned why I don't have a problem with an unNKable townie. We don't know what powers the serial killer had. And the rest of that big, quoted post is about him agreeing with a name claim, which fits with his claim. And go ahead and throw dirt on me, see what you can do. It's what Imat did as well. You accuse me of being stubborn despite plenty of reasons for me to believe you are scum. Now try giving some legitimate arguments.

2. I used the wrong pronoun. Replace the second "I" with "you".

3. Just because someone comes back to the game doesn't mean that lurking was a part of their strategy.

4. You're the one not listening.
If Sethaniel is his partner, then he would have just revealed him, and I don't see that happening. Destructor would be better off taking the lynch and having you lead everyone to ting's demise. I assumed this part would be obvious.
Assuming someone is acting rational isn't that big of an assumption.
I already said why prolonging the day would be bad. It gives us time to find out his potential buddy.
It doesn't matter what he intended. All that matters is what's happening, and what's happening is that the day is going on.

[Matt_S]

A no lynch kills someone off. Then the three people on whatever side can get a mislynch. Or the scum can pull WIFOM and kill one of the people who suspect the other person. Or they can no kill and we can get a happily ever after.

[Matt_S]

ting mirrors my feelings exactly, both with his logic and his sad smiley.

[Matt_S]

Your analysis is a bit simplistic, though. Someone could very well be bussing their partner.

If there's any bussing going on, then it's between destructor and Guardian. At lynch or lose, there's no reason to bus a buddy if the mislynch is at L-1.

[Matt_S]

Destructor's vote seemed like a gambit. I don't particularly like it when townies do gambits, but whether I like it is irrelevant. Saying he "cannot be town" is a gross exaggeration. I could also say that you cannot be town because your claim directly contradicts the claim of a confirmed townie, but that would also be an exaggeration.

[Matt_S]

Guardian, your anger reminds me of a game when a suspected serial killer tried to avoid being lynched. He insisted that there was a cult and that we had to lynch a cult member or we'd throw away the game. I didn't buy into it, and I lynched him, and we won. I didn't know if he was the serial killer. I just knew that him being scum made the most sense, and I went with it. I'm going with what makes the most sense here. Part of my thinking is that the probability of either Sethaniel or BAB being scum seems higher than the probability of ting being scum. Another part is that your actions only make sense as scum if you have a buddy, while destructor could be alone as scum. You have said that this line of thinking is wrong, because it relies on assumptions, yet I've explained why it doesn't. I'm looking at the big picture, and even if I ignored everything else, your case relies on assumptions involving either the mod not doing their job, massive being roleblocked over anyone else, or massive lying for some reason.

[Matt_S]

I find it curious that I have yet to be night killed on this site.

Of the people alive, I think you're least likely to be scum, BAB. You approached everything from a logical perspective. I'll post more when it's no longer almost 3 am.

[Matt_S]

I'm really a vanilla townie. One thing that makes me nervous of destructor is the way Guardian spent all of his time trying to paint ting as a scum buddy. It sounded like he could have been setting up a mislynch for the next day, as if destructor's potential lynch wouldn't be enough. However, it could also be that he was just trying to make himself look like he was scumhunting. As I've stated yesterday, I don't see too many problems with destructor being unNKable, due to potential kill unstoppability for the serial killer, or perhaps even the godfather. Another point in destructor's favor is that if Sethaniel weren't scum, Guardian probably could have just claimed a result on him and probably had better odds of getting a mislynch.

The point that pretty much seals Sethaniel's fate away is his hammering post. He pretty much admits that he didn't look at the evidence. Add to this the timing of his vote, with BAB probably about to hammer, and it seems like an attempt for brownie points. If that's still not enough, ting accused Sethaniel of bussing. Ting died. I'm not one for WIFOM, but maybe one of you is.

So yeah, massclaim. Sethaniel, I choose you!

[Matt_S]

I just wanted to post in this game so that all my watched topics would have my name. So... Yeah...

[Matt_S]

I will be so mad at you if you're scum. I'm tempted to believe you because you could have just waited for the Sethaniel mislynch. Because I totally would have voted him if you hadn't claimed this. I'll think about this for a while.

[Matt_S]

Please answer this question: Assuming I'm telling the truth, do I have any kinks in my logic?

There's the possibility that shaka pm'd talitha when she died and told her that she was naive or that talitha asked after dieing, but that's not very plausible, and a mod probably wouldn't do that anyways. And there's the possibility that Talitha made you naive just for the heck of it, but that's similar to Guardian's assumption yesterday that massive was de-watchered.

Also: turning this lynch to Destructor is obviously harder that lynching Seth. So if I was scum, why would I possibly go for the harder way to win the game!?

To make me mad >.>

Even if you do turn out to be naive, this does seem like the logical course of action.

Vote Destructor

.

[Matt_S]

I still don't get why you're positive that matt is town.

Because destructor was at L-1 yesterday and I didn't hammer him.

[Matt_S]

Don't ever do that again. I almost cried

[Matt_S]

This was an interesting game, but I'm slightly disappointed that I wasn't nightkilled. I still have yet to be nightkilled in a game here.

[Matt_S]

I have a question, in mini-normals, aren't roles called "doctors" supposed to be all the same, or can they have slight variations (such as this) and still be considered a "normal doctor?"

I'm not aware of restrictions on names for roles, though misleading role names could be considered bastard moddish.

And I think you played very well. I can't suggest any ways to improve, except lynch Guardian sooner next time.

[Matt_S]

Matt_S, good job at not believing my lies .

My stubbornness is a force to be reckoned with. It's the biggest part of my play style, I think. It doesn't always serve me well, but I wouldn't be the same player without it. Unfortunately, it makes scum play difficult And just to brag, this game brings my town record on this site to 3-0.

Some things about this game that interest me are that my random vote day 1 hit the serial killer, I was right about Khelvaster being a power role, I got a lot of flack for being against a name claim despite being right apparently that only power roles had names, and I somehow wasn't night killed by anyone. And I'm surprised that two mislynches got us to lynch or lose despite the awesome night 1 and the single death on night 2.

The troublesome role pm, for your pleasure:

Matt_S

You are a member of the fellowship. You have nothing but your voice and your vote to find Sauron and his minions.

You are a townsman.

If you have any questions do not hesitate to ask me.

Confirm via pm.