Sup?
My last two opening votes in games have landed on scum. Do you feel lucky?
Here's the proof:TDC wrote:vote: Raging RabbitI want proof for this before I mindlessly hop onto the wagon!Incognito wrote:Vote: eldarad
Sup?
My last two opening votes in games have landed on scum. Do you feel lucky?
Why did you immediately accept Electra's claim?
Really? How so?iLord, [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=1317614#1317614]in Post 15[/url], wrote:I'm wary of Electra - what she's doing is way too easy of a scum gambit for me to trust.
Yes, I read the link that you linked to and was able to determine who the character was and what the specifics were with respect to the character. But that's precisely my point: if you're saying that you think Electra just wants to be special [by being altered in some way, (in this case through boosting)], then doesn't that imply that you believe her vanilla claim? If it was a joke like you say it was, then fine but if it wasn't, I'd like to know why you seemed to readily accept her claim.Skillit, [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=1317832#1317832]in Post 22[/url], wrote:umm i was making a joke.Why did you immediately accept Electra's claim?
Mohinder Suresh is a character from the show Heroes who basically injected himself with a serum that was unsafe because he wanted a superpower so badly.
I was saying that Electra just wants to be special
Damn, that question took a few read-throughs to understand what you were saying.Skillit, [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=1318001#1318001]in Post 27[/url], wrote:But are you implying that when i said "she just wants to be special" I meant that "she just wants some kind of power" and that that statement, when coupled with her flawed assumption* (see below) that only town would have no power but could potentially get one - this would imply that my thinking that her wanting a power implied that i believed her as town?
Hey. Any thoughts so far about anything that's happened?springlullaby, [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=1318968#1318968]in Post 33[/url], wrote:Hi guys, missed the thread. Marking it by posting.
I'm commenting on what I've bolded in orange here. If this is what you're considering to be a "snarky comment not meant to incriminate her":Skillit, [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=1319819#1319819]in Post 45[/url], wrote:As far as any conclusions about her - i dont really feel like the 3 vs 4 issue is really any kind of definitive tell. I made a snarky comment at the end of one of my posts, something like "how could you know this??" or something (not really worth looking up). It was obviously poorly placed and implemented, and was a gigantic distraction from my point,, i just tend to joke around a lot during the first few pages.so i should point out that i was not trying to incriminate her or call out anything
was the following also a snarky comment not meant to incriminate her as well?:Skillit, [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=1317826#1317826]in Post 21[/url], wrote:you don't...have extra information about the specifics of the mafia members powers...do you?
If even this second comment wasn't meant to incriminate her, why exactly did you classify her omission of this fourth category as "odd"? What was odd about it then?Skillit, [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=1318001#1318001]in Post 27[/url], wrote:Its odd (heh get it? odd?? ehh??) to me that she omitted the category of scum w/ no power but the potential to gain one as it logically and mathematically seems as self evident as the town version.
Can you elaborate on this a bit more? Why do you think Electra's post comes from a townie? Also, can you explain in a bit more detail why you don't like TDC's vote on Skillit?springlullaby, [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=1320282#1320282]in Post 52[/url], wrote:Boost electra
I think her post comes from a townie.
What skillet said seems superficial but on second thought I think it makes a good point, it's good to keep in mind that mafia may have abilities that are independent from boost to avoid reasonings based on wrong basis - ie: "X can't be responsible of action XXXX because X hasn't been boosted".
I don't like TDC's vote on him.VOTE:TDC
I got the pun and thought it was funny too, but I thought you still meant it in both senses of the word.Skillit wrote:"She said 3 instead of 4, i find that odd" odd as in odd numbered. it was a pun. i thought it was kinda funny /shrug(heh get it? odd?? ehh??)
Have all of your previous games been modded by mods who send PM's out when the game begins?fuzzylightning, [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=1321978#1321978]in Post 69[/url], wrote:Alright, I apologize for missing the beginning of this game. I forgot to look for the thread and was waiting for a PM saying the game has started, after confirming, which never came.
I didn't know what to think of Electra's page 1 claim at first. If it had come from a raw Newbie, I might have checked him or her off as obvtown for it. However, Electra has been on this site for quite some time now, and while I agree that the odds of scum making a gambit like that are low, I think it's still plausible for scum to do it, especially experienced scum. I thought eldarad's rather astute observation that he madespringlullaby, [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=1323617#1323617]in Post 81[/url], wrote:Btw, to answer your question Incognito, I think Electra's post comes from town because I read her as town and think the odds for a scum gambit are low. What doyouthink of Electra?
Um, yeah, this is such weighted bombast. I've beenspringlullaby[url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=1323617#1323617], in Post 81[/url], wrote:2. All of Incognito's posts has 'look I'm such a good little townie' written all over them, but has yet to produce anything meaningful.
Eh? All of my questions have been very relevant to the game, and I certainly wouldn't classify them as "'soft' questions" either. Just because I don't immediately reveal my insights from the answers I get doesn't mean that I haven't formulated any opinions on them. When I'm ready to make a case against someone who I think is scum, I'll do so but certainly not this early in the game. Trust me, when I have a scum read on someone I'll make my opinion on the person blatantly obvious. Right now, this is purely the information-gathering stage for me. I've seen certain things from people that make me lean slightly town on them or slightly scum but not enough to come to a definitive answer with respect to their alignments.springlullaby[url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=1323617#1323617], in Post 81[/url], wrote:a. Ask 'soft' questions of doubtful relevance in about every post he makes, but doesn't seem to garner any insights from the answers he got.
It would be rather nice if I didn't have to answer your bolded questions until after Electra responded to my question but if you absolutely must know now, I asked the question because I couldn't entirely figure out why she chose to comment solely on sthar8 and Skillit with respect to the meta-game and why her meta leans town on them. I mean, yes, Skillit in particular seems to be receiving the majority of the attention as he has accumulated the most votes thus far, so I could understand why she might have taken the opportunity to vouch for him but then she also referred to sthar8's meta when I personally don't think he seems to be in any real danger as of right now. Her reference to sthar8's scum meta just seemed a bit premature to me, and I wanted to see if there were any underlying reasons for her to do so.springlullaby[url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=1323617#1323617], in Post 81[/url] wrote:Incognito wrote:@Electra:Are sthar8 and Skillit the only two people in this game who you have metas on?
What is the purpose of this question? How do you intend to garner insight from the recipient's answer if any?
This was a more minor personal question for me that probably nobody else in the world would use to try and figure out someone's alignment, but I sometimes rely on little questions like this to formulate reads.springlullaby, [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=1323617#1323617]in Post 81[/url], wrote:Have all of your previous games been modded by mods who send PM's out when the game begins?fuzzylightning, [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=1321978#1321978]in Post 69[/url], wrote:Alright, I apologize for missing the beginning of this game. I forgot to look for the thread and was waiting for a PM saying the game has started, after confirming, which never came.
Same questions as above.
I have a slight meta on sthar8 as I just finished moderating a game in which he was scum in. I thought he played fairly well in that game, and I do have respect for his scum play, so I wanted to place a bit of pressure on him to try and get a better read of him. I thought he kinda skated by a bit in that game particularly on Day 1 as nobody seemed to really place much pressure on him until later on in the game during Day 2. Therefore, I figured that by placing a pressure vote on him early even for more minute reasons I would be able to draw more information out of him and not allow him to skate on by. Plus his answering of posts directed at other people has the potential to lessen the information we can draw from their responses since they could just copy or formulate their response around his own response thereby making any response they do put forward a null tell. I wanted to nip that type of "answering posts directed at other people" thing in the bud immediately.springlullaby[url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=1323617#1323617], in Post 81[/url], wrote:2. A weak vote on sthar, it doesn't convey a sense of suspicions, but rather annoyance at sthar answering in other's stead. When sthar answers, Incognito seems to be satisfied with sthar's response as indicated by post addressing Raggin Rabit, yet vote still on sthar.
Tell me Incognito, what do you think of sthar exactly? Was your vote meaningful in anyway in the first place?
And that's wrong because...?springlullaby[url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=1323617#1323617], in Post 81[/url], wrote:3. A prod within the first 3 pages, wtf.
Cute. Very cute.springlullaby[url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=1323617#1323617], in Post 81[/url], wrote:Incognito, I think you very much resemble scum trying to look busy, what do you think?
I don't think I was being passive-aggressive at all. A tad sarcastic maybe but not passive-aggressive. I agree that post number has no correlation with whether or not someone is pro-town or pro-scum but that wasn't the point I was getting at. The point of my comment was more in reference to how the content that youspringlullaby, [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=1324651#1324651]in the bold of Post 91[/url], wrote:Incognito wrote:Glad to see you getting more involved now, springlullaby. I almost forgot you were even in this game. Addressing your points.
I do not like the passive-aggressiveness of this, I post when I have something to say, and posting a lot doesn't make you town the same way as posting less doesn't make you scum. What matters is the content. Agree/disagree?
Not trying to get semantic but "appeal" is an interesting choice of words. I don't think I was appealing to anything. I read eldarad's thoughts about Electra's early claim, thought about it on my own, and decided tospringlullaby, [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=1324651#1324651]in the bold of Post 91[/url], wrote:I didn't know what to think of Electra's page 1 claim at first. If it had come from a raw Newbie, I might have checked him or her off as obvtown for it. However, Electra has been on this site for quite some time now, and while I agree that the odds of scum making a gambit like that are low, I think it's still plausible for scum to do it, especially experienced scum. I thought eldarad's rather astute observation that he madespringlullaby, [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=1323617#1323617]in Post 81[/url], wrote:Btw, to answer your question Incognito, I think Electra's post comes from town because I read her as town and think the odds for a scum gambit are low. What doyouthink of Electra?at the bottom of this postwas probably the best reason put forward by anyone to believe Electra might just be town here. I didn't think the assumption that scum probably wouldn't do such a thing on page 1 was powerful enough a reason to check her off as obvtown like everyone else seemed to do, so I preferred to reserve my opinion of her until I saw more content come from her. So to answer your question, as of right now, I'm leaning pro-town on Electra not based on the assumption that scum probably wouldn't do what she did but more based on what eldarad mentioned and her additional contribution to the game.
I do not like this answer as I note here that you have to appeal to a reason provided by another person to form an opinion on Electra.
Where did I say anything about reserving judgment in that quote you posted? I was talking about scum hunting and how I felt a large portion of the conversation early on was purely theoretical, which allows for easy scum hiding and how I wanted to move away from exactly that type of discussion ASAP. I specifically mentioned that theory discussion states very little about a person's alignment and how I'd rather engage in conversation with people to figure out where they're coming from.springlullaby, [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=1324651#1324651]in the bold of Post 91[/url], wrote:Incognito wrote:Um, yeah, this is such weighted bombast. I've beentryingto hunt scum. I didn't like the initial route the discussion took since it seemed to focus purely on the game mechanics which seems more theoretical to me. I think it'sextremelyeasy for scum to hide in that type of discussion since it focuses more on information rather than analysis and leaves people reading completely neutral. I prefer asking questions directly to people and engaging in conversation by analyzing posts and eventually formulating gut reads. In my opinion, theory discussion is very unlikely to reveal much about a person's alignment, so the sooner we could move away from it, the better.
You are saying here that you prefer reserving judment before commiting to anything, well let me tell you that I think 8 out of 10 persons who prefer to reserve judment are scum because 1)it is hader for them to form an opinion in the first place2)they want to keep all options open the longer possible, especially if they do not indicate their initail read at all, which is your case.
What do you think?
I posted that link because Ispringlullaby, [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=1324651#1324651]in the bold of Post 91[/url], wrote:Incognito wrote:Eh? All of my questions have been very relevant to the game, and I certainly wouldn't classify them as "'soft' questions" either. Just because I don't immediately reveal my insights from the answers I get doesn't mean that I haven't formulated any opinions on them. When I'm ready to make a case against someone who I think is scum, I'll do so but certainly not this early in the game. Trust me, when I have a scum read on someone I'll make my opinion on the person blatantly obvious. Right now, this is purely the information-gathering stage for me. I've seen certain things from people that make me lean slightly town on them or slightly scum but not enough to come to a definitive answer with respect to their alignments.
Does the post you linked have a relevance to the present game at all?
As for your 'info-gathering stage' see above.
This is true. I actually misread her post and thought she mentioned that she was leaning town on Skillit as well as sthar8. It was only sthar8 who she mentioned she didn't have a problem with so far.springlullaby, [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=1324651#1324651]in the bold of Post 91[/url], wrote:1. 'Lean town on both of them' : this is not what I gathered from her post.
In response to your first question: Um, no? How could I possibly determine if there were any underlying reasons for her citing meta in this particular game for two people in particular by... actually going forth and meta-ing her? Are you suggesting that people's alignments from previous games carry over or something?springlullaby, [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=1324651#1324651]in the bold of Post 91[/url], wrote:2. Surely if you had wanted to see if there were any underlying reason to her bringing forth the meta, the easiest way to do it would have been to verify her say by meta-ing her? Because if she is scum, wouldn't you expect her to lie?
springlullaby, how could he possibly know the intention of my question to be able to know whether or not to lie about his answer when I didn't even specifically mention why I asked him about it until you questioned me about my own question's intent? If you yourself have expressed this inability to understand the true point of my own question, do you thinkspringlullaby, [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=1324651#1324651]in the bold of Post 91[/url], wrote:Incognito wrote:This was a more minor personal question for me that probably nobody else in the world would use to try and figure out someone's alignment, but I sometimes rely on little questions like this to formulate reads.
Scum can talk during pre-game, correct? Therefore his reference to not receiving a PM to know when the game had started could have been seen as weakly pro-town since, if he was scum, he and his scum buddies might have been going back and forth a bit in conversation before game and might have nudged one another about the game's opening. I wanted to see if his comment was sincere. Obviously I wouldn't base my read of fuzzylightning completely off of this, but I thought it was a small avenue worth probing a bit.
I don't see the connection between the question you asked and the answer you provided.
How can you determine if his comment was sincere by asking him about previous games? Again, if he is scum, don't you expect him to lie? And what is the connection between him possibly talking back and forth as scum before the gamestart and the question you asked?
Really? Why's that? I think I've been aggressively trying to scum hunt so far actually.springlullaby, [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=1324651#1324651]in the bold of Post 91[/url], wrote:I can accept your reason to want to pressure sthar, but I think your behavior is not very offensive at all and is in contradiction with your stated intentions which is to pressure him.
Superfluous questions receive ridiculous answers from me. Your question was a superfluous question.springlullaby, [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=1324651#1324651]in the bold of Post 91[/url], wrote:Incognito wrote:Cute. Very cute.
What is the meaning of this? Do I detect dismissal?
I did. I specifically referred to one of your points as "weighted bombast", I specifically mentioned that I am scum hunting and asking relevant questions rather than "asking 'soft' questions that are irrelevant to the game". If that's not pointing out that your points are a bit of a stretch, then I don't know what is.springlullaby, [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=1324651#1324651]in the bold of Post 91[/url], wrote:Incognito wrote:Some of your points seem like a bit of a stretch to me, which is a bit bothersome. I'll try and take it as a slight pro-town sign that you've called me of all people out on certain things when I've pretty much had absolutely nothing directed at me and have been finding myself trying to create my own content to get involved in. But yeah, there ya go.
Why 'try and take it'? I'm not asking you for any favor. If you think some of my point are stretching, please indicates which and why.
Yeah, sorry, I misread your comment on Skillit. Thanks for clearing that up.Electra, [url=http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1324807#1324807]in Post 95[/url], wrote:@ Incognito – I didn’t comment that I don’t think he’s scum. As for leaving my vote on, it’s because I’m deciding whether or not I think he’s scummy, and it would just be weird to take my random vote off now and revote him if I decide on it. :p
No, I don't think he's in any real danger right now either, but I suspect that the wagon that's formed on Skillit is not a random D1 wagon being put forward to figure things out from people -- it seems like a more serious wagon. Therefore, I mentioned that because I'd like for the people who are still on his wagon who haven't particularly elaborated further on what they thought about Skillit's more recent posts to own up to their own votes. I felt like some of the votes were still a bit wagony.TDC, [url=http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1324938#1324938]in post 97[/url], wrote:I assume that by mentioning the L-2 you're trying to say that this is dangerous or whatever, but I don't think that skillit is in immediate danger of being lynched right now.
I'm glad to see that someone finally at least commented on this. I was a bit surprised to see a bunch of people post within the same time frame of our exchange but seem to completely ignore the massive blocks of text that made up the previous page. I know iLord and Crazy in particular at least mentioned that they are currently working on some sort of summary post up until now, so I can at least excuse them for not commenting on it but others like Jahudo in particular continued right on posting seemingly oblivious to the current happenings. Electra didn't seem to comment on it either. I'd actually be very interested in learning people's opinions about springlullaby's case against me and my responses to it.fuzzylightning, [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=1326834#1326834]in post 107[/url], wrote:Right now, I am not going to lie, I am completely confused on the springlullaby-incognito exchange, so I will have to re-read that to get some sort of read on whether that is town v. town squabbling or otherwise.
I don't think a gut read always necessarily has to be a first impression kind of thing. Oftentimes it can be for a lot of players in certain scenarios but it can also be something that forms over the course of a game and as I'm sure you know, games can span pages and pages long and can take months to complete.fuzzylightning, [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=1329725#1329725]in post 115,[/url] wrote:How is it possible to formulate a gut read after engaging a conversation for a while. I believe that a gut read is similar to a first impression which is garnered almost immediately, so I would like some clarification on this please.
I responded to this point by mentioning that I had been scum hunting - I feel like I've been asking appropriate questions and pointing out inconsistencies in people's play. She didn't address that point and instead pulled these figures out here which were also noticed by fuzzylightning and Jahudo:springlullaby wrote:2. All of Incognito's posts has 'look I'm such a good little townie' written all over them, but has yet to produce anything meaningful.
I've tried to think about reasons for why a hypothetical pro-town player might say something like this when she couldn't have possibly been tabulating this kind of data on her own and really the only conclusion I could come up with is if said pro-town player was suffering from a bout of tunnel vision. But tunnel vision on page 4 of the thread? I just can't convince myself that this was the reason for her to bring these numbers up and use them against me. Instead I really do feel like she has a high chance of being scum who brought up these numbers to try and exaggerate the case against me to make it seem stronger than it actually is.springlullaby wrote:You are saying here that you prefer reserving judment before commiting to anything, well let me tell you that I think 8 out of 10 persons who prefer to reserve judment are scum because 1)it is hader for them to form an opinion in the first place2)they want to keep all options open the longer possible, especially if they do not indicate their initail read at all, which is your case.
iLord, [url=http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1331760#1331760]in Post 138[/url], wrote:What harm would it do to the town to speculate in thread?[about Electra]
You've used a question and point that I raised with respect to fuzzylightning to arrive at the conclusion that he's likely town but yet you've still got me second from the bottom on your towniest to scummiest list? How exactly does that work?iLord, [url=http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1331760#1331760]in Post 138[/url], wrote:Late coming, but with a very logical post, with some unnecessary speculation. Good analysis on the skillit attack. Due to Incognito’s point, reading town. Thinks Incognito defended well.fuzzylightning:
Incognito, [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=1331930#1331930]in post 139[/url], wrote:What's wrong with trying to expand the conversation away onto other things that are not Electra when the Electra stuff was already being covered by others?
That wasn't an action though. You're basing an entireiLord, [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=1333260#1333260]in post 142[/url], wrote:That particular action was protown and makes sense. The scummy vibes I'm getting from your argument with springlullaby is much stronger. Just because I think your scum doesn't mean I can't acknowledge good points that you make. Scum and make good, protown points to blend in as town.
iLord, [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=1333260#1333260]in post 142 about my lack of sharing my thoughts on Electra[/url], wrote:The benefit is that we know what your stated opinions are at a certain point of time and information.
I don't think this makes much sense either. One of your major points against me is how I didn't immediately share my thoughts about Electra's page 1 stuff. Your other major point essentially boils down to meiLord, [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=1333260#1333260]in post 142 about my sharing of thoughts on springlullaby's attack against me[/url], wrote:The excessive amount of doubt you put up behind the springlullaby vote and how you sort of built up to it read really scummy.
Nope, not saying that at all. Town and scum can both make good points like you said. My point is that if you were genuinely suspicious of me like you say you are, you'd take things that I sayiLord, [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=1333995#1333995]in post 149[/url], wrote:It makes sense to me, so I don't see why I shouldn't use it. On the flipside, are you saying that if you make a good point, you're automatically town?
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[quote="Insert-name-here, [url=that paper icon thing on the top left corner of the post you want to quote]in post #[/url],"]The content that it's in the quote.[/quote]
Oh.
Um, no.springlullaby wrote:You answer everyone of my points first. Kthx.
Because I suspect either you or me is getting replaced from this game.Patrick wrote:10.) Avoid excessive profanity,etc.flaming
Yes, actually. I should note that I don't normally do lists so don't expect one from me in this particular game either, but I've been questioning iLord about some of the points he's raised in his 138 because I can't shake the feeling that some of his reads look contrived. In particular, I can't see how he could freely admit that a lot of the points raised in springlullaby's case against me were weak and mention that I defended myself well against her case (which, keep in mind, consisted of what he freely admitted to being weak points) but how I could still come out looking scummier than her in our exchange. From my experience, scum have a tendency to try and push weak cases against people in an effort to get them lynched but yet for some reason, iLord sees this as something particularly pro-town coming from springlullaby.Raging Rabbit, [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=1335154#1335154]in Post 182[/url], wrote:Incog - any suspicions other than SL? In particular, what's your read on Crazy?
Where have I goaded springlullaby?iLord, [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=1335253#1335253]in post 184[/url], wrote:Incognito and SL need to calm down. I don't mean this in a condescending way, but Incognito needs to stop goading SL, and SL needs to loosen his emotional attachment to this game.
It's really not my job to pacify her though (again, springlullaby is a girl so please stop calling her a "him" lol). All I can do is respond to the points that she's raised against me to the best of my ability and determine if her suspicion of me is really genuine in order to get a better read of her. And how could you say I'm less emotionally involved when springlullaby herself ended up unvoting me for taking offense to her flaming? WhatiLord, [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=1335857#1335857]in Post 189[/url], wrote:You haven't as much goaded him as showing no apparent signs of pacifiying him. You're obviously a lot less emotionally involved, and so you must walk the higher ground.
eldarad, I meant to ask you about this before, but is there any reason why you seem to have an order of lynching preference?eldarad, [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=1334978#1334978]in his 168[/url], wrote:Hence lynching Crazy will also give us a decent steer on sl's alignment.
Electra, [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=1333628#1333628]in her 6th post[/url], wrote:Crazy, Incognito, scummyish.
Electra, why the change? It's not like I was any less angry before you made your 6th post. Also, post++.Electra, [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=1337570#1337570]in her 8th post[/url], wrote:I guess if anything, I'd read them both as ever so slightly town due to the level of anger in their exchange.
iLord, [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=1338717#1338717]in his 203[/url], wrote:Did she really unvote?
Heh. Another comment that I really can't wait for springlullaby to see.iLord, [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=1338717#1338717]in his 203[/url], wrote:It's actually really simple - someone brought up the point (I think it was Eldarad) that scumElectra would have to make quite the leap of faith in terms of set-up speculation. What benefit could the scum recieve when boosted to justify what would be a very gutsy and risky scum gambit.
sthar8, where exactly did Crazy encourage anyone not to worry about boosting scum? I'm assuming you're talking about here:sthar8 wrote:He then encourages us not to worry about boosting scum, expresses unsupported suspicions of two apparently unconnected players, and buddies up to eldarad before signing off.
I don't really see how that's encouraging anyone about not worrying about boosting scum. To me, he just seems to use the above as his own reason to believe Electra's claim since he seems to assume a boost of scum shouldn't result in an automatic win -- it would presumably just provide the boosted scum with some type of (possibly additional) power. Thus he believes Electra wouldn't put her own neck out on the line the way she has just to get a boost if she were scum. Do you not see it that way?Crazy, [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=1323423#1323423]in his 79[/url], wrote:I'm now not seeing what possible great benefit Electra would get from getting boosted (presumably as scum) that would warrant a gambit like this. It's not like a boost is an automatic win, right? Which makes me think it's more likely that she's pro-town.
Crazy, in the above you mentioned that you're receiving scum vibes from RR and TDC but in your large player by player analysis post you were comparatively softer on TDC. What was it in particular then that gave you scum vibes from TDC in 79? What caused that to change in between your 79 and 151?Crazy, [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=1323423#1323423]in his 79[/url], wrote:*coughpressure* Scum vibes from TDC and RR. */pressurecough*
I'm looking forward to this.springlullaby, [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=1340455#1340455]in her 213[/url], wrote:I have reread the game, I'm on Skillit scum with Incognito. I'll post why I think so when I work up the energy to do so.
Yes, of course a pro-town player has to make the leap somewhere, but I still fail to see what's wrong with not making that leap some time later in the game. You began attacking me sincespringlullaby, [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=1343306#1343306]in her 222[/url], wrote:There is no perfect case, especially on day 1, and in mafia you could pretty much dismiss anything by virtue of giving the benefit of the doubt if you were thus inclined. But thing is, you've got to make the leap somewhere, somehow, if you want to move things along. That is why in essence the 'reserving judgement being protown' argument is in my view not a good defence.
I've responded to this point previously, so I will not respond to it again.springlullaby, [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=1343306#1343306]in her 222[/url], wrote:In addition, I think that wanting to reserve judgement hints heavily at self-preservation being a big motivation in one's play. In clear, I think Incognito has been sending up 'I may be blue' warning signs to town but you see, I do not think there is a role in this game that warrants such a strongly hinted at subtext beside scum.
I've already explained the motivation for my earlier questions, but I guess you still think they were not game-related for whatever reason. Do you think my more recent questions still have no perspective? Do you not see the issues within the points that I've raised against iLord and other players, and can you not see how my questions towards him and others especially as of recent might be helpful in gauging whether or not someone's scum?springlullaby, [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=1343306#1343306]in her 222[/url], wrote:2. I do see a pattern of OMGUS in Incognito's play. When left 'unattended' you can see him going about what I see as asking an endless stream of questions with no perspective in sight. But he does comes alive when directly under fire, putting my case on him aside, see his reaction to iLord.
Anything at all?springlullaby, [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=1343306#1343306]in her 222[/url], wrote:This combined with his inability to formulate an original view of anything, makes me think he is a pretty good picture of reactive scum play.
First, admittedly, when I pointed out that Skillit was at L-2, I forgot about the "nobody will be lynched before two people get boosted" mechanic.springlullaby, [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=1343306#1343306]in her 222[/url], wrote:Later, there is a post from Incognito signalling that skillit is at L-2.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 85#1324185
This post is peculiar because what it does is asking for people to justify their vote on skillit, while he himself has made no commitment as to his thought on skillit's alignment - note here that this imo is in itself is a display of scumminess from Incognito, I will also further speculate that what happened there is that Incognito was been sly and he was defending skillit without seeming to, I acknowledge however that the last is a judgement call.
While I did find Skillit's behavior early on suspicious, I'm not full of myself nor am I silly enough to think that I'm soo good of a player that I thought I found scum that early in the gameIncognito, [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=1325440#1325440]in my 12th post[/url], wrote:No, I don't think he's in any real danger right now either, but I suspect that the wagon that's formed on Skillit is not a random D1 wagon being put forward to figure things out from people -- it seems like a more serious wagon. Therefore, I mentioned that because I'd like for the people who are still on his wagon who haven't particularly elaborated further on what they thought about Skillit's more recent posts to own up to their own votes. I felt like some of the votes were still a bit wagony.
Raging Rabbit, would you please go into your reasoning?Raging Rabbit, [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=1343765#1343765]in his 227[/url], wrote:Yes.Incog wrote:@Raging Rabbit: Was there any reason why you asked me about my read of Crazy in particular?
It's important because that type of question is usually the type of question a person asks when he or she is trying to draw connections between players. I'm generally leery of those types of questions in the cases where I can find no underlying basis for them, so I figured I'd ask you for your reasoning.Raging Rabbit, [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=1345819#1345819]in his 245[/url], wrote:Why is that so importatnt to you?Incog wrote:Raging Rabbit, would you please go into your reasoning?
iLord, [url=http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1331760#1331760]in 138[/url], wrote:Late coming, but with a very logical post, with some unnecessary speculation. Good analysis on the skillit attack. Due to Incognito’s point, reading town. Thinks Incognito defended well.fuzzylightning:
I've asked you to comment on these at least twice now, and you've ducked out of commenting on them both times.iLord, [url=http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1338717#1338717]in his 203[/url], wrote:It's actually really simple - someone brought up the point (I think it was Eldarad) that scumElectra would have to make quite the leap of faith in terms of set-up speculation. What benefit could the scum recieve when boosted to justify what would be a very gutsy and risky scum gambit.
That's not what I'm trying to do at all.springlullaby wrote:Huh, I'm very tempted to respond flippantly but I'll be reasonable and simply note that what you are doing here is trying to reduce the entire case I have posted against you to one little puny point.
...but again you made no mention of this. I'm just trying to figure out why you're being so inconsistent.Crazy, [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=1323423#1323423]in his 79[/url], wrote:Massive QFT to everything that eldarad has said so far.
I think genuineiLord, [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=1349489#1349489]in 262[/url], wrote:Incognito, what do you think about SL's being really pissed off during you guy's first discussion? If you discussed this already, I must've missed it, but what bearing, if any at all, do you think such emotion (or feigned emotion if you think so) has on SL's alignment?
You're kidding, right?springlullaby wrote:Incognito, if you think I am scum, why aren't you voting for me?
That second was actually more in reference to iLord. Ether (the player on MS) made up this joking theory that a person who can't tell whether someone is a female or male based on the gender icon in the profile is probably scum. Since iLord kept calling springlullaby a "he", I jokingly said I should apply Ether's theory to iLord and label him as scum.Jahudo wrote:The second one I didn't even understand: Ether theory? huh?
Raging Rabbit, [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=1349632#1349632]in 266[/url], wrote:Eldarad's seems more solid, but mostly I'm just happy to see you gathering votes.[compared to Incog's]
iLord, [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=1351353#1351353]in his 287[/url], wrote:Really?
I'll look at that link later, but if SL is known to fake anger, then that would drastically make me reevaluate my read of her.
Damn, that must have been a quick read. What did you think of those links?iLord, [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=1351452#1351452]in his 291, [i]25 minutes later[/i][/url], wrote:I would boost Electra and sthar8, but since Electra's refraining at B-1, I'll boost my next choice.
Boost: sthar8
Boost: springlullaby
This OMGUS argument isn't gonna cut it. I mentioned in my 117 that one of the main reasons I was voting for springlullaby was because something about her attack felt off. At the time, I couldn't quite articulate as well as I could have what it was that felt off about it but after looking through MD, I found the phrase that I was looking for. I really think springlullaby's attack against me wasGuardian, [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=1351058#1351058]in his 284[/url], wrote:Incognito's whole attack on SL looks like a long drawn out OMGUS and much more like the latter (pretend scum hunting) rather than the former (real scum hunting).
I didn't like this post because her reasoning for boosting Electra seemed very vague and just seemed to be following the popular opinion about her, and her reasoning for voting TDC seemed equally as vague as well. So I questioned her on what it was I didn't like about this post:springlullaby, [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=1320282#1320282]in her 52[/url], wrote:Boost electra
I think her post comes from a townie.
What skillet said seems superficial but on second thought I think it makes a good point, it's good to keep in mind that mafia may have abilities that are independent from boost to avoid reasonings based on wrong basis - ie: "X can't be responsible of action XXXX because X hasn't been boosted".
I don't like TDC's vote on him.VOTE:TDC
...to which she responded with her 81 in which she both answered my questions and then chose to unleash her attack against me for the remainder of her time in the game. So you see, I don't think your argument that my vote on her was "a long drawn out OMGUS" holds any weight because if you look at things in temporal order, you'd notice that my suspicion of her cameIncognito, [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=1320576#1320576]in my 56[/url], wrote:Can you elaborate on this a bit more? Why do you think Electra's post comes from a townie? Also, can you explain in a bit more detail why you don't like TDC's vote on Skillit?
sthar8 has already requested for this, but I too would like for you to elaborate on this please.Guardian, [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=1351058#1351058]in his 284[/url], wrote:eldarad and incognito are linked.
but then choose to boost the both of them at the same time. I mean, yes, you did mention that you found both to be town-like, but you also snuck in the possibility that if one comes up scum, you'd closely scrutinize the other, which indicates that you're at least partially worried about them being scum with one another. Why would you boost two people who you think could have a scum linkage with one another?Guardian, [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=1351058#1351058]in his 284[/url], wrote:iLord and sth are linked. I find both town-like, but if either showed up scum I would drastically reevaluate the other.
and I feel like iLord's point that he used against Raging Rabbit to determine he's scum (about pushing the same weak point over and over again) that he didn't equally apply to springlullaby to determine she's town (pushing multiple weak points over and over again) is also a double standard that I find to be very suspect. And since I'm equally suspicious of both of you, your linkage and boosting of sthar8 and iLord almost looks like you know sthar8 is town and you're trying to sneak a boost in for your scum buddy by coupling it with the boost of a town player.Incognito, [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=1349339#1349339]in my 260[/url], wrote:That's not what I'm trying to do at all.springlullaby wrote:Huh, I'm very tempted to respond flippantly but I'll be reasonable and simply note that what you are doing here is trying to reduce the entire case I have posted against you to one little puny point.
A major point of contention between us was your whole "Incog isappealingto eldarad's Electra-read to form his own read of her", and I'm pointing out here that iLord did it twice, but you made no mention of it at all and have adamantly stated that you think iLord is town. In fact, I'd think you'd consider his to be even worse since he specifically "appealed" to someone who he had as his second scummiest read along his list (me) while I "appealed" to someone who I thought was town. Also, eldarad pointed out that Crazy was an even bigger offender of doing this than I was here:
...but again you made no mention of this. I'm just trying to figure out why you're being so inconsistent.Crazy, [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=1323423#1323423]in his 79[/url], wrote:Massive QFT to everything that eldarad has said so far.
Good catch.TDC, [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=1352217#1352217]in his 298[/url], wrote:Incognito: I have sifted through the two games of sl you mentioned (and a few more of her). I can see the parallel with R-1000, but I don't really see it with Nice Shot. The other games (town and scum) where fairly clean (and lurky) from her. I would have a better feeling about this meta read if there was more data (or if I understood where you think Nice Shot is comparable with this game, could you elaborate?)
That's the only portion of what I talked about that you respond to?Guardian, [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=1353080#1353080]in his 307[/url], wrote:Incognito, why start acting dismissive again? My past meta character has nothing to do with the validity of my argument -- or are you arguing that it does??
Guardian, I was already suspicious of her before she ever reacted the way she did and had already had a vote on her for a large portion of Day 1. Her reaction made me think even worse of her, and I metagamed her even further, so I placed my vote back on her (you) because I think she (you) have a strong chance of being scum. How could you possibly claim that I was preemptively OMGUS-ing you when I could have had absolutely no clue what you would think about the game following your read? This argument is awful.Guardian, [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=1353080#1353080]in his 307[/url], wrote:Further, you make the case she was preemtively OMGUSing you... I am replacing into a situation where you have unfairly attacked my role to the point you got her so angry you left -- and when I replace in you vote me. I presume you expected I would be suspicious of you -- it seems to me that you were preemptively OMGUSing me with that vote.
I am implying that your boosting of those two at the same time makes absolutely no sense and yes, I find it suspicious. I said so as much later on in that post you just quoted and gave my reasons why. I can't understand how someone who suggests there could be a positive link between two players that could suggest a scum linkage between them could thenGuardian, [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=1353080#1353080]in his 307[/url], wrote:Before I respond to this, I want to know what you are implying -- do you find my actions suspicious, or misguided, or both? Do you want me to reply why me doing this should not been seen suspicious, or do you want me to consider whether i might be wrong, or both? If you think my action was suspicious, explain why. If you think it was wrong, explain why. I need clarification before I can answer.
Are you kidding? I had repeatedly asked springlullaby to comment on this double standard a few times throughout the thread, and she repeatedly avoided it, which made me even more suspicious about it. Also, please note, that you were the first person to begin explicitly tying people together (you tied sthar8 with iLord and me with eldarad). And now it's wrong for me to suggest that I think a link might exist between you and iLord when you did the same just now and after I had repeatedly tried to get springlullaby to comment on her own double standardization? And I guess that sthar8<->iLord link (which included a town read of iLord) just gets thrown out the door now because I noticed a connection between you (springlullaby) and him that makes you want to suddenly look into me<->iLord?Guardian, [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=1353080#1353080]in his 307[/url], wrote:I am going to re-read sometime with a possible iLord--Incognito connection in mind. Incognito seems like he was going out of his way to paint a iLord--me picture. It benefits scum to tie townies to scum, and Incognito seemed to me to think that tying me to iLord was a strong point against me.
No problem.Guardian wrote:Incognito, any chance of you responding to the questions/arguments I bring up in my post? Many of them are new/original.
I'm assuming you're talking about this:Guardian, [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=1353528#1353528]in his 312[/url], wrote:If me replacing in had nothing to do with your vote why did you say that it did? Why vote for me only after I replaced in -- you posted between her last post and before I replace in, why not vote then?
This was pretty clearly a joke. My real explanation for shifting my voteIncognito, [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=1350815#1350815]in my 280[/url], wrote:Plus, Guardian is always scum in games I'm in. QED.
You're missing the point that I've been making with my problem with your simultaneous boosting of iLord and sthar8.Guardian, [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=1353528#1353528]in his 312[/url], wrote:I find them possibly tied and then still vote for them. For me to be scum doing that, for it to be scummy, I would have to have forgotten I found them tied -- in the same post where I said I found them tied!! If I were scum I could just omit I found them tied, or not boost both or either them -- I boosted them because I find/found them both most likely to be town, regardless of the chance that they are tied! I find it extremely implausible to find me suspicious for this, because I would have to have less than half a brain to not realize what I was doing as scum. I don't find it suspicious at all.
Unwise? Possibly. I am going to reevaluate, especially iLord, whenever I re-read. Scummy? Definitely not.
I said that you're the first one to do itGuardian, [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=1353528#1353528]in his 312[/url], wrote:Now you say I am the first one trying to make ties?
I like the way you cut off the rest of what I said, btw. I specifically mentioned why I didn't want to do this back and forth stuff anymore. It has nothing to do with whether this argument is bad for me or not. I know what I am, and I find it pointless to continue a back and forth argument that's not going to accomplish much besides making the thread more unreadable than it already is.Guardian, [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=1353528#1353528]in his 312[/url], wrote:I find that statement to be a mild scum tell. "This argument is bad for me. Let's avoid it."Incognito in [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=1353475#1353475]311[/url] wrote:I really don't want to get into a back and forth with you as I've done this back and forth stuff enough this game.
In response to your first question, it depends. There have been certain examples from previous games where I could totally see where the person attacking me was coming from, I would realize they were just misguided, and I would do my best to try to dispel their doubts about my alignment. If you'd like specific examples, I could try and provide them. There have been other instances, like the Sarcastro example, where the attack felt scum-driven. At first, I thought springlullaby's attack against me may have been misguided but when she continued on and kept pushing more and more weak points, I began to see her attack as possibly scum-driven.Raging Rabbit, [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=1356743#1356743]in 333[/url], wrote:Incog, do you often find yourself really agreeing with points made against you? Assuming you're town, how can an attack against you be anything but either scumdriven or misguided? I have a hard time believing you're always so soft on people attacking you.
I did see those points but after I responded to them, I thought I might have dispelled her doubts, and that she would have dropped the issue. That didn't happen though, and she continued pushing the same weak points over and over again.Raging Rabbit, [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=1356743#1356743]in 333[/url], wrote:Didn't you see these points before? Could you give some examples of games where you found points raised against you "correct" and continually considered attacking you a towntell?
This isn't true. I feel like I most certainly have been scum-hunting in between defending myself from springlullaby and bringing up points against/questioning iLord. Those aren't the only two people I've been focusing on. Plus, keep in mind that at least three players have been MIA for quite some time now, and the only other person who's been at about the same activity level as me has been iLord. When others post, I have been giving them my attention as well.Raging Rabbit, [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=1356743#1356743]in 333[/url], wrote:In fact I haven't seen Incog do much scumhunting except for above trail on SL and making a case on iLord after I asked him to name a second subject. For the "most active player in the game", I don't think of that as much.
...that's not what I said at all. I said the fact that she continued pushingRaging Rabbit, [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=1357829#1357829]in 339[/url], wrote:So you see attacks against you in a pro town light, but full fledged ones are a scumtell?
Yes, I feel like my play here is more regular. And no, I don't have an example like the one you're looking for. Like I said, it's not very often that I find myself being attacked when I'm town.Raging Rabbit, [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=1357829#1357829]in 339[/url], wrote:But you yourself admit your play there was atypical, and therefore your read of the attack was atypical well. Aren't you playing regularly here? If you are, could you give another more typical example of you treating attacks as towntell, preferably one where you end up changing your mind when the case isn't dropped, like you did here?
I didn't just ask about his reads on me; I remember saying that most of his reads look contrived, and I think you even agreed with me at one point. I consider contrived looking reads to be a scum-tell.Raging Rabbit, [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=1357829#1357829]in 339[/url], wrote:True, but you mostly just question his reads on you and never mention finding him scummy.