Mini Normal 2326 | Everything has exploded !

[DarthPunk]

Having joined this game specifically to play with vivax I would rather not lynch him for the lolz.

[DarthPunk]

It would be pretty funny if you got day 1 lynched again on another site though in a tragic kind of way

[DarthPunk]

Having joined this game specifically to play with vivax I would rather not lynch him for the lolz.

As a reminder for everyone, the word "Lynch" is not allowed to be used on this site, suggested alternatives can be lim (eliminate) exe (execute) or whatever you see fit

Sorry my bad.

[DarthPunk]

VOTE: outoforder

I could get behind this vote. I don`t see where the assumption I was scared came from if not from within.

VOTE: OutofOrder

(Hey DP, I think they`re trying to tell us we have to vote for him. I´m not sure but these people might be a cannibal tribe)

I actually thought that vote was weird and kind of liked out of orders entrance.

They seemed keen to play and quick to throw shade which is always good

[DarthPunk]

VOTE: Vivax

It's been awhile since I last played with you

Yeah I think you were around when I got offered a leading position at a social media company, which I then declined to get a job instead.

Why the vote ?

It's just random

Why the random vote?

[DarthPunk]

I don`t see where the assumption I was scared came from if not from within.

you don't?

Nope. Give me a good reason to be.

im scary

Meh

[DarthPunk]

i agree darthpunk is towny

I get that a lot.

[DarthPunk]

VOTE: Vivax

It's been awhile since I last played with you

Yeah I think you were around when I got offered a leading position at a social media company, which I then declined to get a job instead.

Why the vote ?

It's just random

Why the random vote?

Everybody always asks "why the random vote" and not "how's the random vote"

Your answer lies there I think

How about “was the vote random?” to start with.

[DarthPunk]

Just an fyi for Timezone purposes I’m in Australia.

[DarthPunk]

Less random than rolling a die, more random than simply vibing with a certain name

Ok now that that is established. Why?

[DarthPunk]

hey can people start placing votes down, random or not

Not really how I roll. Not without a firm reason.

[DarthPunk]

hey can people start placing votes down, random or not

Not really how I roll. Not without a firm reason.

I’m interested in why this is something you want tho

[DarthPunk]

This is IML. As soon as a majority is reached, the lunch is served. Drumming for quick votes is more mafia indicative than town indicative. We don‘t have enough information.

Consider this a FoS on Dannflor.

Yeah I know that it’s instant majority. I just don’t get why he wants votes, any votes even random votes when basically nothing has happened.

[DarthPunk]

it would make it much easier to start getting firm reasons

Do random nothing votes do that? Particularly when you ask for it in the thread?

[DarthPunk]

Rayn?

[DarthPunk]

That’s a nice surprise that’s for sure

[DarthPunk]

This is IML. As soon as a majority is reached, the lunch is served. Drumming for quick votes is more mafia indicative than town indicative. We don‘t have enough information.

Consider this a FoS on Dannflor.

now, why isn't this a vote instead of an FoS

This was dann’s best post imo

I’m bothered by all the other stuff but maybe that is normal here?

I’m trying to be a bit careful not to jump all over someone for not meeting my high expectations.

[DarthPunk]

Spoiler:

hey can people start placing votes down, random or not

it would make it much easier to start getting firm reasons

This is IML. As soon as a majority is reached, the lunch is served. Drumming for quick votes is more mafia indicative than town indicative. We don‘t have enough information.

Consider this a FoS on Dannflor.

now, why isn't this a vote instead of an FoS

I feel like Dann is trying hard to look Town.

I agree that random voting stage is overhyped, and I prefer my votes to have substance behind them.

I dont understand why Dann is trying to tie themselves to me, considering i have no idea who they are. Im not too sure of anything yet, but

i find this the towniest post in thread so far.

Agree.

[DarthPunk]

VOTE: outoforder

VOTE: Dannflor

Terrible.

[DarthPunk]

what do you see that is terrible?

That vote.

[DarthPunk]

right, elaborate?

He had a good opener and correctly pointed out Luca’s good post.

He has done nothing to make himself a good lynch candidate.

Additionally at the start you said you didn’t want to lynch him due to wanting to specifically play with him then You voted for him after being called out for creating an association.

[DarthPunk]

to be specific i would like you to to spell out why you think that vote is terrible

How is it not?

[DarthPunk]

to be specific i would like you to to spell out why you think that vote is terrible

How is it not?

Specifically, what is good about it and why did you make it?

[DarthPunk]

To summarize and make my point a little clearer, I generally find statements like "well don't take what I said too seriously" to be scummy.

I tend to agree in general. In this instance I was referencing specifically coming from a different site with a heavily cultivated metagame and finding it a bit jarring playing when I don’t understand others expectations and weird random shit is happening that I would usually not expect is going on.

[DarthPunk]

to be specific i would like you to to spell out why you think that vote is terrible

How is it not?

Specifically, what is good about it and why did you make it?

[DarthPunk]

Nvm ninja’s

[DarthPunk]

to be specific i would like you to to spell out why you think that vote is terrible

How is it not?

Specifically, what is good about it and why did you make it?

I thought it was a little bit weird that outoforder took my original post about them seriously. I also found the "Im not too sure of anything yet" to be overly noncommittal

but I wanted to see what people would assume of my vote if I left out the explanation

Why would anyone not take your post seriously? It’s the internet, humour needs to be a little of obvious, particularly when it’s not funny.

It’s the start of day one, isn’t this the time of any
To not necessarily hard commit to things?

[DarthPunk]

He had a good opener and correctly pointed out Luca’s good post.

He has done nothing to make himself a good lynch candidate.

Additionally at the start you said you didn’t want to lynch him due to wanting to specifically play with him then You voted for him after being called out for creating an association.

a. why is Luca's post towny?

b. i didn't say i wanted to eliminate him. my vote could have been for any number of reasons.

c. 21 was a joke playing off of your 14, which i thought was pretty funny since no one actually believes vivax would get eliminated based off two page 1 random votes. nonetheless, my vote was not because they "called me out for creating an association" (what exactly would be the benefit of me doing that anyway?)

A.)His post was good because I think it was an insightful analysis of your play up to that point, it showed he was reading and thinking about the game and trying to draw conclusions.(and it was one I happened to agree with)

B.) I don’t even know how to engage with you if we can’t even agree that the person being voted for is the person you currently want eliminated. Like obviously you can vote for pressure , but the vote loses all meaning (including pressure) if you can’t take at face value that a vote means you want to eliminate that person.

C. I don’t think it’s that important but your joke was not clear and the fact you acted to vote the person who just raised it was surface level scummy

[DarthPunk]

It’s the start of day one, isn’t this the time of any
To not necessarily hard commit to things?

you seem to have the idea that voting somewhere equal a hard commit

I’m of the idea that voting someone means you want to elim them otherwise what is the point? Pressure votes are not pressure votes without something real behind it.

[DarthPunk]

If Random voting is some part of the metagame here then that is the most absurd thing I have ever heard.

[DarthPunk]

it's kinda wild to me that it's not some places tbh

I hearby invite you to the next game on tl.

You can still see the light.

It’s not too late.

[DarthPunk]

Test.

[DarthPunk]

Sorry I literally couldn’t post for a bit was getting an SQL error.

I think luca looks really good right now.

VOTE: Unvote

I enjoyed the banter was fun.

[DarthPunk]

I’m off to bed.

[DarthPunk]

I am not going to be around today, I have a board game and drinks thing for my birthday.

I’ll be around later either late this evening or tomorrow to address stuff.

[DarthPunk]

im back catching up.

[DarthPunk]

I would also like people to explain why they are voting for OoO

You don‘t find it funny that DP thought he was rayn ?

It‘s like every account on the internet that claims to be from Finland is actually rayn.

Dude must be like Schroedingers kitty

i checked his post history after he said he was from finland and saw him talking about some TL people in a previous game, and assumed that it was rayn after that.

[DarthPunk]

Vivax why do you think it is a good idea to lynch rayn day one?

[DarthPunk]

Catch up post.

VOTE: outoforder

VOTE: Dannflor

Terrible.

If you want me to talk more about why I am a little sus of DarthPunk, this reaction is part of the reason why.

Outoforder said a thing about they think Dannflor might be trying to cozy up to them. Dannflor then reacted by voting for Outoforder.

Now you can either look at that as a joke, or you can see that Dannflor is unironically just trying to distance himself from Outoforder. One interpretation is that this was meaningless and another is, IMO, totally understandable. Thus, I don't really get why DarthPunk took so much issue with it. It's scummy to take issue with stuff on flimsy evidence, since scum know they're never going to get solid evidence of anything and thus must jump on even the flimsiest of cases and hope it somehow blows up into something legitimate.

Like it's just weird I guess. It didn't strike me as a scummy activity at all so I guess I just don't follow the thought process that might make someone think it was, other than a very simplified "there's a vote with little rationale behind it, go after it", which isn't much of a case so early in the day.

There is nothing scummy there.
I don't know Dannflor from before, how do you take that?

I dunno? None of my takes have been based on anything that happened in any games previous to this one. If you and Dannflor had some long and storied history with one another, I'd still hope that you evaluated his thoughts and actions in the context of this game and not biased by previous ones. I don't have any history with anyone here, but speaking for myself, if I did, I'd honestly do everything in my power to forget it and force myself to judge their thoughts and actions in this game and this game alone.

I'm not sure what to make of everything you just said and did. You offered a lot of opinions but hardly any rationale for any of it. I don't think any of us are particularly concerned with exactly what you believe as we are with WHY you believe it.

Like let me press you for more info on a few things, give me a moment...

(wow, 4 new posts since I started writing this)

I would like you to press me more on this please.

I like OOO wanting to get pressed here. Mostly because of meta reasons, I like it when OOO is setting traps or checking to see if his expectations are met within certain interactions. It means he is thinking about thread dynamics and trying to deduce people's alignments internally and I think this is more likely to be part of his natural process as town.

I don't like his Luca Read though, at this point in the thread, Luca has seemed to me pretty townie, and I have not really disagreed with any of their thoughts or conclusions.

Lets discuss something important...

Roden voted Vivax
Naerys voted OoO
Dannfloor Vivax
Vivax OoO

These are the first votes in the game. Generally mafia wants to establish distancing earlier.
Roden and Dann voted Vivax.
Naerys voted OoO
Vivax voted OoO.

Given that Vivax was voted twice and also voted for someone, they are the person who gives the most info, and is the most likely to be wolf as well.

VOTE: Vivax

This doesn't make any fucking sense, especially in the context of random voting on this site.

Lets discuss something important...

Roden voted Vivax
Naerys voted OoO
Dannfloor Vivax
Vivax OoO

These are the first votes in the game. Generally mafia wants to establish distancing earlier.
Roden and Dann voted Vivax.
Naerys voted OoO
Vivax voted OoO.

Given that Vivax was voted twice and also voted for someone, they are the person who gives the most info, and is the most likely to be wolf as well.

VOTE: Vivax

This is probably the worst reason ever to vote for anyone, but also not mafia reason lol

I agree, but I also disagree that they can't be mafia here.

Lets discuss something important...

Roden voted Vivax
Naerys voted OoO
Dannfloor Vivax
Vivax OoO

These are the first votes in the game. Generally mafia wants to establish distancing earlier.
Roden and Dann voted Vivax.
Naerys voted OoO
Vivax voted OoO.

Given that Vivax was voted twice and also voted for someone, they are the person who gives the most info, and is the most likely to be wolf as well.

VOTE: Vivax

This is probably the worst reason ever to vote for anyone, but also not mafia reason lol

It's honestly not that bad. Statistically it checks out im pretty sure.

It is.

But you also think Luca looks scummy when he seems like the sanest person itt so meh, you might be mafia after all.

VOTE: outoforder

I understand this vote, but I don't think that his Luca read makes OoO mafia.

Lets discuss something important...

Roden voted Vivax
Naerys voted OoO
Dannfloor Vivax
Vivax OoO

These are the first votes in the game. Generally mafia wants to establish distancing earlier.
Roden and Dann voted Vivax.
Naerys voted OoO
Vivax voted OoO.

Given that Vivax was voted twice and also voted for someone, they are the person who gives the most info, and is the most likely to be wolf as well.

VOTE: Vivax

Its ridiculous that yall let gob get away with this tbh.
I know im using ridiculous a lot, but this is an insanely terrible post

Oats looking good.

Lets discuss something important...

Roden voted Vivax
Naerys voted OoO
Dannfloor Vivax
Vivax OoO

These are the first votes in the game. Generally mafia wants to establish distancing earlier.
Roden and Dann voted Vivax.
Naerys voted OoO
Vivax voted OoO.

Given that Vivax was voted twice and also voted for someone, they are the person who gives the most info, and is the most likely to be wolf as well.

VOTE: Vivax

Its ridiculous that yall let gob get away with this tbh.
I know im using ridiculous a lot, but this is an insanely terrible post

It's funny that you acknowledge this and think it's scummy, but somehow are oblivious to outoforder giving him a townread for it while you don't. If you are town then what does that make outoforder, or me for that matter?

Considering we think the same it's odd that you think I'm scummy but manage to overlook the entire reason that I'm voting him for yet is one you seem to be agreeing with.

If he's mafia though I congratulate you to what later will be a present scumclaim.

how does outoforder giving him a town read make outoforder scum rather than bad?

Wow I can hold 2 separate thoughts in my head big whoop lol.

He said gob‘s post was so bad that it made him town.

Why don‘t you double down on your separate thoughts and ask Outoforder the same question, or yourself for that matter:

Why does it make gob bad and not scum ?

Double standard spotted, Oats.

Ah yes when someone disagrees with me they must be scum. of course. makes me have a double standard.

Gob post is bad because hes trying to apply intent to a phase in the game with no intent, so clearly hes just posting for the sake of posting, and "trying" to find a reason to jump on you, the current most popular target.

There is intent in RVS stage. The mafia commonly vote their partner in RVS stage to "distance."

It is a bad play, mind you. But people do it often.

Although i do admit i was posting for the sake of posting.

OK.

VOTE: GOB

If activity levels, or lack thereof, are an indication of guilt, then I'd be very suspicious of Dunnstral, Naerys, and Roden. And obviously MalcolmTucker but they might be afk and getting replaced.

I think there's probably at least one deepfaker in here somewhere, or I'm at least leaving myself open to the possibility so that I don't get hoodwinked by people, but I'm willing to bet there's probably like two scum between Dunnstral / Naerys / Roden.

Very weird change of direction here from Ninja, has just started a push onto OOO and then kind of undermines themselves with an elim lurkers tangent. Undermining your own pushes is scummy because you can act like you are invested and doing stuff but you are also limiting the effect of your push in essence doing something while achieving nothing, which is the goal as mafia.

However I am very much in a tizzy over what OutOfOrder has been doing and saying (and NOT saying, more importantly) so I am leaving my vote there for the time being and hoping for a response. I am murican and this is my bed time so I will see you all in my murican morning.

Yeah just a bit all over the place to be honest.

If activity levels, or lack thereof, are an indication of guilt, then I'd be very suspicious of Dunnstral, Naerys, and Roden. And obviously MalcolmTucker but they might be afk and getting replaced.

What lack of activity?

LOL I guess Roden and Ninja can't be mafia together at least.

I think there's probably at least one deepfaker in here somewhere, or I'm at least leaving myself open to the possibility so that I don't get hoodwinked by people, but I'm willing to bet there's probably like two scum between Dunnstral / Naerys / Roden.

Sus post. Looks like you're just going after low hanging fruit. The games been open for like a day? Give it time

Agree with this.

Also of all the posts you choose to respond to that one is very funny roden

I have no idea who you are

I'm assuming you're another of Vivax's off site friends?

You mind answering this, Oats?

Why does this matter @RODEN? weird way to respond to being (correctly) called out, I guess you are trying to undermine his thread presence?

I don't need to case someone who already confirmed themselves as scum lol

Scummy

I don't resonate with Roden's level of conviction at all here, nor do I think he really believes it himself.

Agree with this, this is also why I think Luca is town, just too sensible and insightful at the right times to be maf imo.

It's also the second time a seemingly passive player has burst into life and suddenly gone ultra-aggressive, which as I said earlier I read as more likely to come from scum who are having a hard time blending it otherwise and feel the need to create waves. Doing so against a partner would be a safer route of achieving this. Outoforder at least comes across as Townie to some extent, which I'm not seeing from Roden yet.

Although I really don't like the preflip associative reads at all. So thats bad. But not maf.

Then vote Oats

I'd rather vote you, as I don't believe the way you're portraying your view of the game to be real. It's feels as if you're overcompensating.

Ok, found the second scum

This guy is just mafia.

If activity levels, or lack thereof, are an indication of guilt, then I'd be very suspicious of Dunnstral, Naerys, and Roden. And obviously MalcolmTucker but they might be afk and getting replaced.

What lack of activity?

Does anyone find it interesting that Roden reacted like this to my post, and THEN came the aggressive showdown with Oats? Because I certainly do.

I'm totally on board with Lucas's sentiments that the whole Roden vs. Oats thing seems overblown. However when Oats got personal, it made me realize they're probably just being a jerk, and I've learned that being a jerk actually kinda tends to be a town tell. Scum wouldn't take it personally to be viewed as suspicious since they clearly are guilty, but town views it as an attack on their mafia skill to be innocent but viewed as guilty, and they have the confidence of knowing their own innocence, so from those two things I can see where the "being a jerk" thing comes about. Which is all a long winded way of saying I don't really view oats as scummy here.

Roden's reaction is a bit different and again seems possibly driven by what I said. Could just be overconfident town, but to talk directly to Roden here, please realize what you're doing here isn't helpful, your case is very flimsy, and now you're having to play defense. If you're actually town, it would behoove you to find a way to put this behind us, and continuing what seems like a bad case against oats probably won't get us there.

Why do you Imply Roden's reaction is scummy and then you talk to him as if he is town? This post is big waffle that doesn't do anything or really say anything.

I disagree that town players are more likely to be a Jerk. I will tell you that TL players are more likely to be aggressive in their interactions.

I found Roden very townie so far.
Laid back much even.

are we reading the same game?

And why are you so scared of revealing information about who you are as a player?

Why is your reading comprehension so bad you need me to spell it out for you?

For real though, this is incredibly rude and I hope this isn't how people plan on treating each other in this game.

We can vote him for it. In his defense though, that's how he's learned to play.

I can vouch for this, Its a TL thing.

I think there's probably at least one deepfaker in here somewhere, or I'm at least leaving myself open to the possibility so that I don't get hoodwinked by people, but I'm willing to bet there's probably like two scum between Dunnstral / Naerys / Roden.

Sus post. Looks like you're just going after low hanging fruit. The games been open for like a day? Give it time

I hate to toot my own horn, but I feel like if there's anyone in this game that you could accuse of "just going after low hanging fruit", it certainly isn't me.

I am immediately sus of anyone who is pushing back on what I said (the main reason I said it was to see who would do so / how people would react). There's little to no incentive for townies to discourage people from using what is historically a pretty decent scum tell. But there's PLENTY of scummy reason for scum, who often struggle to find useful things to say, to push back against anyone sending out a reminder that a lack of meaningful contribution is significant.

Can you show that it is historically a good scum tell?

Spoiler, its not.

Can you show that it is historically a good scum tell?

Sure, let's look at the most recent Mini Normal game that resolved: viewtopic.php?t=92058

Scum team was HighPrincessErinys, Hu Tao, and Purplemango.

The game had 4147 total posts and lasted for 5 days. With 13 total players, the average contribution of a player is then 4147 / 13 = 319, as your point of reference.

Total number of posts from the scum team:

HighPrincessErinys: 162 (died at end of day 3, so 2 days where no activity would be expected)
Hu Tao: 459 (alive all 5 days)
Purplemango: 103 (alive all 5 days)

Even if we extrapolate HighPrincess's post count for a full 5 days of survival, that would only put them at about 250, still less than the average contribution of 319 posts. Purplemango is clearly well below average at 103. Hu Tao is slightly above average, which I concede, but not above the average by much. Hu Tao was alive for all 5 days, which the majority of players were not, and only managed to come in just above the average.

You can compare that to other very active townies like Flavor Leaf who posted 1130 times and Dragon eater who posted 722 times. When you're a townie, you can post a lot more frequently with much more confidence.

It is not an entirely infallible method. But it is certainly a pretty decent one.

If you tried this on my home site you would not get very far at all.

We need to lim between Naerys / Vivax / SuperflousNinja

OutofOrder's tone has been consistent since the begining of the game. He also did progress the first page on his own pretty much.

SuperflousNinja's posts are really long and kinda void of anything worthwhile (in my opinion). So I am thinking she could also be mafia. Naerys not really sure on.

Don't like the let's lynch into X players, really easy to just not include the mafia there as mafia. I agree on the Ninja read tho.

Vivax is probably the mafia in that pool.

everyone get on vivax

Honestly you remind me of one of those peasants from Monty Python.

Luca said OOO hasn‘t been consistent, you say he has. That‘s the point. Your opinions differ, that should bother you, because it bothers me if it doesn‘t.

Good post.

And why are you so scared of revealing information about who you are as a player?

Why is your reading comprehension so bad you need me to spell it out for you?

For real though, this is incredibly rude and I hope this isn't how people plan on treating each other in this game.

We can vote him for it. In his defense though, that's how he's learned to play.

This actually answers the question I was asking Oats earlier. His play felt super similar to Punk's, who comes from a different site, so it made me think he probably came from there as well. In that case, it would explain the instant aggression and over-the-top criticism towards the town and site culture. Oats refusing to answer that question though made me think he knew I just detected his scum tell, but that he wasn't from the same site as Punk and couldn't lie and say he was, and so refusing to answer was his only way to shrug off pressure as scum.

It turns out no, he's just unhelpful and abrasive for literally no reason besides being taught bad habits.

UNVOTE:

Bit of the pot calling the kettle black here.

There is intent in RVS stage. The mafia commonly vote their partner in RVS stage to "distance."

It is a bad play, mind you. But people do it often.

Although i do admit i was posting for the sake of posting.

Emphasis mine. I just wanted to highlight this one too as what I think is clearly non-townie behavior.

This is a good pickup, I like ninja when she is posting less waffle and actually just gets to the point (ironic I know with this catchup post )

Can you show that it is historically a good scum tell?

Sure, let's look at the most recent Mini Normal game that resolved: viewtopic.php?t=92058

Scum team was HighPrincessErinys, Hu Tao, and Purplemango.

The game had 4147 total posts and lasted for 5 days. With 13 total players, the average contribution of a player is then 4147 / 13 = 319, as your point of reference.

Total number of posts from the scum team:

HighPrincessErinys: 162 (died at end of day 3, so 2 days where no activity would be expected)
Hu Tao: 459 (alive all 5 days)
Purplemango: 103 (alive all 5 days)

Even if we extrapolate HighPrincess's post count for a full 5 days of survival, that would only put them at about 250, still less than the average contribution of 319 posts. Purplemango is clearly well below average at 103. Hu Tao is slightly above average, which I concede, but not above the average by much. Hu Tao was alive for all 5 days, which the majority of players were not, and only managed to come in just above the average.

You can compare that to other very active townies like Flavor Leaf who posted 1130 times and Dragon eater who posted 722 times. When you're a townie, you can post a lot more frequently with much more confidence.

It is not an entirely infallible method. But it is certainly a pretty decent one.

There are so many things wrong with this. First of all you're taking averages in that game and comparing the mafia to be above or below average posting rate. In this game, you've simply said the three lowest posters are mafia. In reality only Purplemango is in the lowest 3 in the game you've linked. You're also using a game where 2 town players have way more posts than normal which are two outliers that is throwing everything out of whack. Finally you've presented a sample size of one which isn't enough to say that this is a trend that occurs over multiple games.

For someone this sensible I really wish you contributed more.

Reads:

Oats: Tip Top Town.
Luca: Town
OOO: Lean town
Dannflor, Vivax : doing stuff
Hu Tao, Dunnstral, Nareys: Sensible, but need to post more.
Lean Mafia: Ninja
Mafia: GOB and Roden.

[DarthPunk]

My Vote is on GOB by the way, it's buried in that catchup post.

I could also vote for Ninja or Roden.

I'm around now and keen to interact or answer any questions.

[DarthPunk]

dunnstral why is superfluous' assertion about lurkers like the most interesting thing to you about this game so far

i don't think you're scum for lurking but i don't understand why you are picking at the things you are picking at

Do you not think lack of engagement is a mafia tell?

Does it concern you that Dunstrall is only pushing back on the assertion that would cause him to be in the list of mafia?

[DarthPunk]

Oats I do think you could tone down the aggression levels and probably find more success leading the town.

[DarthPunk]

like gob seems disengaged thus far and clearly enjoys kinda being annoying towards Ninja. I don't think either of these features are super alignment indicative

Why is this not alignment indicative?

[DarthPunk]

Oats I do think you could tone down the aggression levels and probably find more success leading the town.

I probably could but there are some absurd things being said, it’s very difficult

I mean I don't disagree. We are guests though, always nice to be polite.

[DarthPunk]

What did you think of Dannflor's case?

[DarthPunk]

Basically my case on GOB is that he openly stated he was posting for the sake of posting.

That is mafia 101 scummy. What can I say? I am a simple man, I see a scum claim, I vote.

[DarthPunk]

Anyway I like dp’s post, dp pocketing me or not I dont really care.

I liked danns case, I voted for ninja. The attitude towards a couple people where it really felt like they knew they were town was crazy

Oh ok, I thought it may have been a pressure thing.

[DarthPunk]

Yeah, I just remember way too many games where gob flipped town basically.

Thats just where I stand at the moment. I would really like the other players to come back and actually participate

Oh ok, I thought it may have been a pressure thing.

nah i dont really do that

Wait, you have played with Gob before?

Do you think that ninja and Roden could be mafia together?

[DarthPunk]

Basically Gob and Roden had some really awful moments when I was catching up with the thread that basically made me think they were OBV scum.

[DarthPunk]

But I don' t think that the Roden 'what you mean lurking' moment makes much sense if Roden and Ninja are both Maf.

I guess GOB and Ninja pushing each other as maf makes more sense and GOB/Roden also makes sense.

[DarthPunk]

How do we know the vote counts?

[DarthPunk]

Yeah, I just remember way too many games where gob flipped town basically.

Thats just where I stand at the moment. I would really like the other players to come back and actually participate

Oh ok, I thought it may have been a pressure thing.

nah i dont really do that

Wait, you have played with Gob before?

Do you think that ninja and Roden could be mafia together?

not gob specifically, gob-like players.

Yeah I can see them being mafia together.

But I don' t think that the Roden 'what you mean lurking' moment makes much sense if Roden and Ninja are both Maf.

could be distancing, theres no actual consequence of those two posts

Roden apparently just says stuff for no reason? Like I dont want to believe that he really thinks that playing like this is "good" town play but I also dont know if my standards are too high

Probably he is mafia...

[DarthPunk]

its just gob lowercase, not all uppercase BTW

OK sorry.

[DarthPunk]

Basically my case on GOB is that he openly stated he was posting for the sake of posting.

That is mafia 101 scummy. What can I say? I am a simple man, I see a scum claim, I vote.

It's a simple turn of phrase. You and Ninja are reading way too much into that.

I find it weird you choose to vote me over Roden though, trying to save Ninja?

It may be a simple turn of phrase but was it true? If so, why were you posting for the sake of posting?

I am not trying to 'save' anyone. I am trying to get the elim correct. I think Ninja also has a good chance of flipping mafia, but I want to elim the person with the

best

chance of flipping mafia.

[DarthPunk]

It's kind of awkward in a Instant Majority game to have to go back through the thread and work out the vote counts.

[DarthPunk]

Ninja can you post a list of your reads please.

[DarthPunk]

Basically my case on GOB is that he openly stated he was posting for the sake of posting.

That is mafia 101 scummy. What can I say? I am a simple man, I see a scum claim, I vote.

It's a simple turn of phrase. You and Ninja are reading way too much into that.

I find it weird you choose to vote me over Roden though, trying to save Ninja?

It may be a simple turn of phrase but was it true? If so, why were you posting for the sake of posting?

I am not trying to 'save' anyone. I am trying to get the elim correct. I think Ninja also has a good chance of flipping mafia, but I want to elim the person with the

best

chance of flipping mafia.

It wasn't really true. I was really just trying to post to 'charge myself up' so to speak, and also move the topic away from whatever was going on at the time since i deemed it not worthwhile.
For me, that is posting for the sake of posting, cause I am posting to 'charge myself up' when in reality I could go 'charge myself up' doing something else IRL, but i instead chose to post in the thread. So from a certain point of view it was a selfish play since it was purely focused on elevating my play. That is why I described it was the terminology I did.

What are your reads gob?

[DarthPunk]

Ninja can you post a list of your reads please.

I'll just copy and paste the notes I keep on my desktop.

TOWN
Luca Blight - active, good take in post 56
Dannflor - very active. Strangely aggressive? but still making good arguments
Oatsmaster - aggressive pushback on Roden, being a jerk, which is kinda townie tell

NULL
Outoforder - active, but acting in odd and suspicious ways, need better explanations
DarthPunk - very active, Post 57 struck me as sus and I commented on it
Vivax - very active, Back and forth with him over DarthPunk comment, but untrustworthy
Naerys - inactive
Hu Tao - inactive

SCUM
Gob - slightly more active but underwhelming, some bizarre play with the case on Vivax
Roden - was inactive, then strangely aggressive after I pushed him for it, defensive / dismissive
Dunnstral - inactive for a long period, pushed back on my activity level post

MalcolmTucker is afk so they could be anything.

Can you extrapolate on these reads a little bit please.

Cause at this point it seems almost arbitrary. Like with Roden aggressiveness makes him scum, but for oats town?

Like you have Vivax as very active and also untrustworthy, but there is basically no logic or reason shared for how you get to your conclusion with vivax. Why do you think he is Untrustworthy?

What about Outoforder's posting is odd and suspicious? what explanations are you unsatisfied with?

[DarthPunk]

I guess I am having issues cause like you are stating some reasons to find a lot of people suspicious, but you aren't really being agentic in trying to pursue those ideas further than like a surface level. Like the fact you have Outoforder as Null, but he had to keep asking you to engage with him in a discourse doesn't really make sense.

The thing about Dannflor's case that struck me as very true about your play is that you seem to be more focused on your image in the thread and 'being right' rather than curious about the alignment of others or proactively pursuing a scum hunting agenda,

[DarthPunk]

hmmmm.

[DarthPunk]

There isn't really a rush with such huge timeframes for each phase though. I'd prefer to wait till she replies to, well, anything.

If she doesn't then I'm down.

[DarthPunk]

I'm more cautious about voting in this setup because its Instant Majority, and I need to consider timeframes. Like probably hammer will be during peak EU_US crossover time while I'm sleeping. So I want to be really comfortable with where I park my vote while I'm away.

[DarthPunk]

I'm more cautious about voting in this setup because its Instant Majority, and I need to consider timeframes. Like probably hammer will be during peak EU_US crossover time while I'm sleeping. So I want to be really comfortable with where I park my vote while I'm away.

If we time this day out I will lose my mind.

but fair enough

I'm not planning on doing that, I just want to hear more, and I want some others who are not contributing to have contributed.

Really no excuses for us to not have significant information on every player day one with this setup.

I do prefer the 48hour day 24 hour night phases on TL though, as a driver of something happening.

[DarthPunk]

Just got off work and it's raining napalm and baby kangaroos in here hijole

Share your thoughts Vivax

[DarthPunk]

What happens if the people that are acting scummy are just scum though? Occam's Razor and all that.

[DarthPunk]

What happens if the people that are acting scummy are just scum though? Occam's Razor and all that.

It's a bit of a site meta thing. What you might define as scummy could just be a way to play that you don't deem as efficient. It always helps to pretend that there's a bunch of Chezinus in the game (troll player from our site).

I always go into games thinking that a bunch of players are just actors who play as distractors. Not that it has to be the case but it helps me with the sorting. I've met a lot of nasty distractor questions during exams.

Well that is true.

[DarthPunk]

If I were Superfluousninja and had written the amount she has and Dannflor just came out of nowhere and stuck a wall of accusations to my face of which some are of the type that he could have presented earlier, you bet I'd start poking into said wall before thinking to myself 'oh he's town'.

This is true. It's almost like it didn't occur to her that he was mafia, which is weird cause for me, the best reason he is town is the case he made against ninja.

But for town!ninja you should know he was wrong.

[DarthPunk]

Basically my case on GOB is that he openly stated he was posting for the sake of posting.

That is mafia 101 scummy. What can I say? I am a simple man, I see a scum claim, I vote.

I don't think this is scummy

town post for the sake of posting probably more often than scum

This is just not true

Yeah I am struggling with people who

seem

to know a lot but really don't seem to know the basics.

[DarthPunk]

dunnstral why is superfluous' assertion about lurkers like the most interesting thing to you about this game so far

i don't think you're scum for lurking but i don't understand why you are picking at the things you are picking at

Do you not think lack of engagement is a mafia tell?

Does it concern you that Dunstrall is only pushing back on the assertion that would cause him to be in the list of mafia?

it doesn't concern me that dunstral is pushing back on this, I don't disagree that it's not a great tell

it concerns me that of all the things in the game thread this is what seems most interesting to him. I don't really know what it tells him about Ninja's alignment or what value he gets out of arguing this point

Can you respond to this again in a way that makes sense, I am not trying to be mean but I genuinely don't understand what you are trying to say here.

[DarthPunk]

I really take issue of ninja basically accusing me of not knowing my own alignment...

I like a Ninja lynch better than a Luca lynch to be honest.

Luca to me just seems to be freely posting whatever thoughts they happen to have at the time.

I don't think inconsistencies in thought processes are

purely

a mafia trait tbh.

Townies can do it too, cause they are just posting whatever pops into their heads.

[DarthPunk]

like gob seems disengaged thus far and clearly enjoys kinda being annoying towards Ninja. I don't think either of these features are super alignment indicative

Why is this not alignment indicative?

having played with gob before i've seen these sorts of behaviors from him as both alignments

Is there a third party who can verify this?

[DarthPunk]

I really take issue of ninja basically accusing me of not knowing my own alignment...

I like a Ninja lynch better than a Luca lynch to be honest.

Luca to me just seems to be freely posting whatever thoughts they happen to have at the time.

I don't think inconsistencies in thought processes are

purely

a mafia trait tbh.

Townies can do it too, cause they are just posting whatever pops into their heads.

While i understeand being used to using the word Lynch, i am officially asking that you take more caution in choosing your words

Sorry, it really wasn't intentional and I have been trying.

Its a habit formed over 15 years.

[DarthPunk]

Anyways here is where i basically stand at the moment:
Town:
Dannflor
Vivax
Oatsmaster
gob
Roden
Probs town:
DarthPunk
Scummers be here:
Luca Blight
Dunnstral
Naerys
SuperfluousNinja
Hu Tao
Replaced:
MalcolmTucker

My problem is, while Dann's case on Ninja is good and reasonably sound, currently pretty much all of my scum pool agree with that.
So basically i am either very wrong, or if Ninja is mafia, there's probably one mafia agreeing with the case and then the Malcolm slot.
I have some reservations, but i would like to wait for Ninja to give her opinion on what Dann said, before going deeper on this.

Why do you always hedge on me being town.

[DarthPunk]

I have no idea why you think Rosen and gob are town btw.

Can you explain that cause I must of missed it

[DarthPunk]

dunnstral why is superfluous' assertion about lurkers like the most interesting thing to you about this game so far

i don't think you're scum for lurking but i don't understand why you are picking at the things you are picking at

Do you not think lack of engagement is a mafia tell?

Does it concern you that Dunstrall is only pushing back on the assertion that would cause him to be in the list of mafia?

it doesn't concern me that dunstral is pushing back on this, I don't disagree that it's not a great tell

it concerns me that of all the things in the game thread this is what seems most interesting to him. I don't really know what it tells him about Ninja's alignment or what value he gets out of arguing this point

Can you respond to this again in a way that makes sense, I am not trying to be mean but I genuinely don't understand what you are trying to say here.

It concerns me that this is what Dunnstral is focusing on almost solely on arguing this point about engagement because it doesn't really look like he's sorting Ninja with it. It looks like he's arguing a point for the sake of being correct.

It concerns me that this is what Dunnstral is choosing to engage with out of all the possible things in the thread he could be engaging with.

Does that make sense?

It makes sense but not in context because you aren't answering my question. Which was "Do you not think lack of engagement is a mafia tell?"

[DarthPunk]

i really dislike how cautiously DP approached my case on Ninja

in DP's catchup post 382 he slides Ninja into a lean scum position but doesn't comment on my case or push there

his first comment on it is 389 where he asks Oats what *he* thinks about my case. It feels as though through pages 16-17 that DP is waiting to see how others react to my case before he takes a firm stance either way.

i feel like posts 415 and 416 are trying too hard to be reasonable and set DP up to join the growing wagon on Ninja. Like I think Ninja's initial reaction looked very bad because she missed my initial case and didn't stick around much besides dumping a kind of confusing reads list. oatsmaster, gob, and hu tao all had immediate reactions of "yup good case + looks like scum" whereas it looks like DP feels the need to make it look like he's very earnestly trying to engage with Ninja before joining the wagon.

It is hard for me to explain why this sequence of posts bothers me so much and I'm worried I'm not communication it well. But I think the best way to describe it is this:

1. DP is ostensibly lean scum reading Ninja
2. Dannflor comes along and writes a big wall case on Ninja that is generally well received
3. Ninja has an optically bad initial reaction to the case
4. several other players come to a quick similar conclusion that ninja looks like scum

given that series of events would you expect town!DP to

A. vote Ninja

or

B. make a series of posts justifying his continuing scum read while simultaneously giving Ninja the benefit of the doubt

furthermore I feel like 421 immediately followed up by 422 are overly explanatory about why he doesn't feel comfortable voting Ninja yet

generally i just get the vibe from DP of trying to present themselves as overly reasonable which i think is a common scum tactic. plus i think if Ninja is town his hesitant reaction to my push - almost trying to play the middle - is the most likely position for scum to be taking up

Literally nothing in this case makes me mafia.

[DarthPunk]

I would also argue that my case wasn’t bad regardless of how accurate it was, but that is neither here nor there

This is a pretty severe case of doublethink

[DarthPunk]

I don’t think it’s a good tell by itself, no

Not sure why that is important

Because its maybe the primary mafia tell that we use on TL, and I need to know if we can have common ground about how we view the game, because you seem to hold the opposite fundamental understanding on basically every part of the game.

[DarthPunk]

well you would say that wouldn’t you

No, if it was a good case with something worth responding to I would happily respond.

But I don't think you have established anything in that case other than some arbitrary expectations about how I 'should' have reacted to the ninja case.

and the fact that being reasonable= mafia.

the problem I have with you is that you have already acknowledged and it should be quite clear to you that we approach the game in a radically different way, so why are you so confident with a case that boils down to: (doesn't do what I think he should do as town, therefore he is mafia)

This super long day phase is super pro town, there is no reason to dive in to a elim on Ninja when there are people who aren't even posting.

It was the correct play to not just jump on the wagon and get more information in the thread. Strictly correct even.

As to being reasonable. You should have read a post I made when you ISO'd me talking to oats about toning down our level of aggression as we are guests on the site. Being reasonable is not alignment indicative.

Lack of curiosity is, not wanting to get to the truth of peoples alignments is. Reasonableness no. In fact, on my site the opposite tends to be true.

Now the real question is, why does it seem like you are operating with an agenda, you write cases that are worse than you present them as, with a level of confidence that is not commesurate to the 'evidence' you are presenting.

It smacks of holding an agenda tbh. Are you trying to wrest thread control from the active players? Or are you mafia?

[DarthPunk]

sounds like you don’t have very good scum players over there

Not true.

[DarthPunk]

Im around to talk if we can actually talk about something tangible that is not your subjective opinion.

I would consider the fact that literally no one is voting for me to be feedback form the thread regarding the quality of your case.

[DarthPunk]

But im going to go back and read whatever is going on between Luca and OOO

[DarthPunk]

I don't really know what to make of the Luca - OOO interaction other than the fact that it is probably town on town violence.

[DarthPunk]

Do you have reads gob?

[DarthPunk]

I don't want to lynch ninja today.

[DarthPunk]

I don't really know what to make of the Luca - OOO interaction other than the fact that it is probably town on town violence.

Thoughts on ninja? That's the real question

I think she is looking better, honestly some of the stuff that Dann said is still true, she seems quite self-aware of her image.

However her recent posts look better, she is posting a lot which I think would just be really hard to fake as mafia, and I tend to agree with her conclusions.

Further, I just don't think it would be smart to vote with my scum read on Ninja who scum reads both my scum reads if that makes sense.

[DarthPunk]

I don't really know what to make of the Luca - OOO interaction other than the fact that it is probably town on town violence.

Thoughts on ninja? That's the real question

What are your thoughts.

List posts are good for the soul.

[DarthPunk]

Oats where did you go?

[DarthPunk]

Do you have reads gob?

[DarthPunk]

@Dann what do you think of this post by Roden?

My case on Order is void at atp, I didn't like their early interactions with Luca and Vivax but 451 turned my opinion around. I vibe with the mentality "I only post what I feel I need to" and tonally I feel that their posting has gotten a lot better.

UNVOTE:

I also had some reservations about Dann, at one point it looked like he may have been trying to pocket me with posts like 332 and when he was hard defending me while writing his case against Ninja. I think he ultimately is town though for later backing up a bit and concluding that he might've been too hasty, I think if he were scum he would just stick to town reading me and leaving it at that.

Luca I think is spewed town for being unable to discern that I was mimicking Oats' play and behavior when interacting with him and then not knowing that me calling them scum was a joke. They've overall been fairly townie and strike me as someone who's got a decent grasp on the game.

Ninja at first seemed similar to Luca, but the more I interacted with her and then saw some of her later posts, the more I think she's just playing with an agenda to elim people rather than scum hunt. Her insistence on arguing that I'm wrong about my own thoughts and intentions reads more as gaslighting rather than someone who's actually try to solve my alignment. 499 doubles down on this and is very tonally manipulative.

VOTE: Ninja

[DarthPunk]

no

What? Like literally none?

[DarthPunk]

I don't really know what to make of the Luca - OOO interaction other than the fact that it is probably town on town violence.

Thoughts on ninja? That's the real question

I think she is looking better, honestly some of the stuff that Dann said is still true, she seems quite self-aware of her image.

However her recent posts look better, she is posting a lot which I think would just be really hard to fake as mafia, and I tend to agree with her conclusions.

Further, I just don't think it would be smart to vote with my scum read on Ninja who scum reads both my scum reads if that makes sense.

I don't really agree with this. And you don't think gob would bus as scum?

I'm not saying that gob would or wouldn't bus, I'm just saying that I consider who I am voting with and who shares a similar viewpoint of the game when i vote.

What specifically do you not agree with? do you not agree that Ninja's recent posts look better and would be hard to fake as scum.

[DarthPunk]

no

What? Like literally none?

0

Why are you voting for ninja then?

[DarthPunk]

....

[DarthPunk]

I'm wondering why Naerys is still on OoO

Oatmaster and gob are scum buddies

Why do you think that?

[DarthPunk]

I'm thinking its DarthPunkj actually, he's way too tighetened up. Even when asking you questions it's like he's scared.

Ok so your only read is me as scum? Is that because I asked you to like, do literally anything?

[DarthPunk]

I'm wondering why Naerys is still on OoO

Oatmaster and gob are scum buddies

They are poking into me still voting order, trying to make me look scummy
Why do you think that?

What do you think of gob and Roden?

[DarthPunk]

Okay, I need a shower lol.

Mate if I wrote what you did in that time span I‘d need a five week vacation not just a shower.

Vivax can you explain your lean scum reads on Me, Oats and OOO.

[DarthPunk]

I'm wondering why Naerys is still on OoO

Oatmaster and gob are scum buddies

They are poking into me still voting order, trying to make me look scummy
Why do you think that?

What do you think of gob and Roden?

Specifically could they be scum together?

[DarthPunk]

I'm thinking its DarthPunkj actually, he's way too tighetened up. Even when asking you questions it's like he's scared.

Ok so your only read is me as scum? Is that because I asked you to like, do literally anything?

No i explained my reason in the post… which you chose not to confront, strange.

how do you want me to confront that? It's a tone read, nothing I can do about it.

But what I can confront is that you went from 0 reads to scum read on me basically in response to a little bit of pressure. so who is the one who is scared.

I was just going to dismiss you as a troll, but it seems to me you do care, cause you are pushing back on me pressuring you.

So you are clearly playing the game, and in that case why do you not have any reads, its not as if there has been nothing going on.

[DarthPunk]

I’m bit busy today but I’m not super happy with vivax continuing to soft push me.

Not satisfied with ninjas actual output in looking for mafia. Long read posts don’t do it for me.

I’m feeling like only one of gob/naerys is mafia and I’m leaning naerys for now.

It's not just you, he has been doing it to me as well.

[DarthPunk]

Grackaroni replaces MalcolmTucker

HYPE!

[DarthPunk]

@VIVAX, @ OATS @ OOO

we should just lynch gob here imo.

[DarthPunk]

Would be great to get a summary of your thoughts once you have finished your read through.

[DarthPunk]

I'm just going to be reading through from the start and quoting as I go.

This is IML. As soon as a majority is reached, the lunch is served. Drumming for quick votes is more mafia indicative than town indicative. We don‘t have enough information.

Consider this a FoS on Dannflor.

This is the first post that's pinging me. It just feels different from what I'd expect to read from Vivax.

vivax has felt different to me all game, it seems like he is more comfortable in this setting than the games on TL and kind of plays around the site differences? ( I kind of put it down to the fact that he has experience here, and others from TL like me and oates are struggling in the environment)

[DarthPunk]

Okay, I need a shower lol.

Mate if I wrote what you did in that time span I‘d need a five week vacation not just a shower.

Vivax can you explain your lean scum reads on Me, Oats and OOO.

Oats mostly from his abrasiveness and the whole stuff I already explained surrounding the way he handled gob who I saw as lunch bait at the time.
You because of the interaction with Ninja that I explained. Would have expected more pushback from you or let's call it OMGUS if you will.
OOO similarly to Oats because of his initial bad vibe I got.

That's the short version. Need to put some into the game now that I'm back so my opinion might just change again and if not I'll tell you more.

Have you seen me OMGUS anyone since I started playing again?

[DarthPunk]

@VIVAX, @ OATS @ OOO

we should just yeet gob here imo.

If we are yeeting a useless player I’d rather yeet naeyres.

There were at least 2 times near the start that naeyres did something I liked and at least she kind of has a read.
Trying to get gob to post anything was like pulling teeth and I just ended up with an omgus vote for my trouble.
I just don't know how town is supposed to navigate a LYLO with like GOB/naeyres/X

[DarthPunk]

This is IML. As soon as a majority is reached, the lunch is served. Drumming for quick votes is more mafia indicative than town indicative. We don‘t have enough information.

Consider this a FoS on Dannflor.

now, why isn't this a vote instead of an FoS

This was dann’s best post imo

I’m bothered by all the other stuff but maybe that is normal here?

I’m trying to be a bit careful not to jump all over someone for not meeting my high expectations.

This feels a little all over the place. The "this was their best post" already tripped my wires since the game is, like, 3 pages old. That's like saying the second verse of the first song of Taylor Swift's new album is the best part of the album while you're listening to it for the first time ever.

But then there's an attempted takesies-backsies with the "I'm trying to be careful" thing. If you want to be careful, it seems like a first sensible step would be to not try and summarize such a small sample size of material.

You can be town

Like honestly why in the fudge did this warrant a townread, I got the opposite vibes.

Hmm yeah that was weird.

[DarthPunk]

I got the sense that he was just handing out shitty nothing town reads at the time, he gave one to Dann too that I also didn't really understand or take seriously.

[DarthPunk]

I got the sense that he was just handing out shitty nothing town reads at the time, he gave one to Dann too that I also didn't really understand or take seriously.

Yeah while being under pressure.
Nothing better than handing out correct townreads while under pressure to reduce the pool of people who might want to vote you.

I don't think I have ever seen mafia that calls everyone in the game scum or picks unpopular scumreads. They are usually more sentiment based.

This is basically my scum play historically, flame everyone.

[DarthPunk]

Getting back to OOO,

I just don't see him feeling the need to do that as mafia, the guy knows he is good as mafia, has that arrogance around his play, so I am not sure that he would feel the need to like butter people up or whatever.

The argument with Luca was really dense and hard to follow, but I think OOO tends to get 'stuck' on like small things that don't really matter to anyone but him. I have seen him do that as town a lot, and I think it means he is invested and trying to solve, where as in his previous scum game it was really obvious that he was not achieving anything, he felt absent despite posting a lot.

Either way we both know he is not a good elim today or tomorrow and we need to give him time and space to catch scum.

[DarthPunk]

I just didn't feel like my vote on outoforder was very well placed after talking to both you and DarthPunk

aside from that it was largely for show, i wanted to share where my reads were at

Does that mean you've changed your opinion on outoforder?

Dannflor ejected thread for a while without answering this question, at the time.
Maybe I should just sheep Luca.

i'm not sure Dann is town.

I liked the fact he wrote that case on ninja, but he didn't really do anything with it, and now he has a case on me he is not really doing anything with.

Seems to me he is attacking big voices ITT and then not really achieving anything and I am not sure he actually cares about determining our alignments as much as he cares about the fact he wrote a case.

Like cases are fine, but where is the follow up pressure/ questioning? He just doesn't seem invested or curious beyond his like big case post and for the confidence that he seems to have, lack of follow up is a big big red flag.

[DarthPunk]

Well at least I think mafia!Vivax would not try to get into a fight with OOO like this unless he is actually just playing me here.

[DarthPunk]

I just didn't feel like my vote on outoforder was very well placed after talking to both you and DarthPunk

aside from that it was largely for show, i wanted to share where my reads were at

Does that mean you've changed your opinion on outoforder?

Dannflor ejected thread for a while without answering this question, at the time.
Maybe I should just sheep Luca.

i'm not sure Dann is town.

I liked the fact he wrote that case on ninja, but he didn't really do anything with it, and now he has a case on me he is not really doing anything with.

Seems to me he is attacking big voices ITT and then not really achieving anything and I am not sure he actually cares about determining our alignments as much as he cares about the fact he wrote a case.

Like cases are fine, but where is the follow up pressure/ questioning? He just doesn't seem invested or curious beyond his like big case post and for the confidence that he seems to have, lack of follow up is a big big red flag.

Marv is usually big on evaluating post timing and he's called me scum for evading questions a few times (correctly at that) or because my response was too delayed. I think that was big part of our site culture, being APM-fetishists in a strategy game and all.

Him evading Luca's question there reminded me of that. I'm not sure why you're blocking me off on OOO but I think I'm moving Dann back out of the town pile.

I said at the start of the game I didn't want to lim anyone from TL right away.

I also never want to lim strong townies day one period, unless its really obvious/strong case. its just - EV over time.

If you want me to vote for OOO you will need to provide more evidence.

Like it would be crazy to elim him over roden or gob or dunn right now.

[DarthPunk]

If you read P11 and think Roden is scum then you should replay the tutorial

Can you point out how that isn't scummy lol?

Like what am I missing here? is it some emotional congruence argument?

it seemed to me he just decided to attack someone and then went all out without really believing what he was saying. It came off as very fake to me.

Can you consider a world in which oats is town, what does this interaction look like in that world?

[DarthPunk]

I just didn't feel like my vote on outoforder was very well placed after talking to both you and DarthPunk

aside from that it was largely for show, i wanted to share where my reads were at

Does that mean you've changed your opinion on outoforder?

Dannflor ejected thread for a while without answering this question, at the time.
Maybe I should just sheep Luca.

i'm not sure Dann is town.

I liked the fact he wrote that case on ninja, but he didn't really do anything with it, and now he has a case on me he is not really doing anything with.

Seems to me he is attacking big voices ITT and then not really achieving anything and I am not sure he actually cares about determining our alignments as much as he cares about the fact he wrote a case.

Like cases are fine, but where is the follow up pressure/ questioning? He just doesn't seem invested or curious beyond his like big case post and for the confidence that he seems to have, lack of follow up is a big big red flag.

Marv is usually big on evaluating post timing and he's called me scum for evading questions a few times (correctly at that) or because my response was too delayed. I think that was big part of our site culture, being APM-fetishists in a strategy game and all.

Him evading Luca's question there reminded me of that. I'm not sure why you're blocking me off on OOO but I think I'm moving Dann back out of the town pile.

I said at the start of the game I didn't want to lim anyone from TL right away.

I also never want to lim strong townies day one period, unless its really obvious/strong case. its just - EV over time.

If you want me to vote for OOO you will need to provide more evidence.

Like it would be crazy to elim him over roden or gob or dunn right now.

None of those are my scumreads though, and Dunn is a weak one based on almost nothing so I doubt I'm going to be voting into what you're suggesting.

Why isn't Dannflor one of your choices? I thought that was your sentiment.

I'd be down to lynch dann, I just don't think its very likely with how many town reads he is getting right now.

[DarthPunk]

Sorry in advance, for the word. I noticed it as I hit post. I have stopped myself a bunch of times. I will try to make sure I re-read before I post.

[DarthPunk]

I really don’t see whatever it is you are seeing in that interaction vivax. Roden’s play looks like exactly what I would as mafia in that circumstance.

[DarthPunk]

I really don’t see whatever it is you are seeing in that interaction vivax. Roden’s play looks like exactly what I would as mafia in that circumstance.

Sounding consistently righteous is hard for scum to pull off but it‘s what the majority of his posts sound like.

Dunno, feels like an easy TR.

It’s not. I promise look at like any of my scum games ever.

[DarthPunk]

I don't really know what to make of the Luca - OOO interaction other than the fact that it is probably town on town violence.

Thoughts on ninja? That's the real question

I think she is looking better, honestly some of the stuff that Dann said is still true, she seems quite self-aware of her image.

However her recent posts look better, she is posting a lot which I think would just be really hard to fake as mafia, and I tend to agree with her conclusions.

Further, I just don't think it would be smart to vote with my scum read on Ninja who scum reads both my scum reads if that makes sense.

I don't really agree with this. And you don't think gob would bus as scum?

I'm not saying that gob would or wouldn't bus, I'm just saying that I consider who I am voting with and who shares a similar viewpoint of the game when i vote.

What specifically do you not agree with? do you not agree that Ninja's recent posts look better and would be hard to fake as scum.

I just don't agree with your logic of not voting who gob is voting because you scumread them. Your read doesn't also seem to be advancing so it looks like a one track mind. You aren't even trying to see a world where gob could be town and ninja could be scum because your only focus is gob being scum.

That’s not the only reason, it’s one of several. Which you should know if you were reading my posts.

[DarthPunk]

I really don’t see whatever it is you are seeing in that interaction vivax. Roden’s play looks like exactly what I would as mafia in that circumstance.

Sounding consistently righteous is hard for scum to pull off but it‘s what the majority of his posts sound like.

Dunno, feels like an easy TR.

I like this post.

It wasn't what I was thinking from the interactions but I can see this read coming from a townie.

Although why did you first call Roden town for being laid back??

In relation to Oats and me at the time he was.
Call it a calm aura. Either way, he didn’t seem to be nervous at first. Later he appeared genuinely angry at oats but he also admitted it.

There was never a calm aura in my opinion.

[DarthPunk]

I don't really know what to make of the Luca - OOO interaction other than the fact that it is probably town on town violence.

Thoughts on ninja? That's the real question

I think she is looking better, honestly some of the stuff that Dann said is still true, she seems quite self-aware of her image.

However her recent posts look better, she is posting a lot which I think would just be really hard to fake as mafia, and I tend to agree with her conclusions.

Further, I just don't think it would be smart to vote with my scum read on Ninja who scum reads both my scum reads if that makes sense.

I don't really agree with this. And you don't think gob would bus as scum?

I'm not saying that gob would or wouldn't bus, I'm just saying that I consider who I am voting with and who shares a similar viewpoint of the game when i vote.

What specifically do you not agree with? do you not agree that Ninja's recent posts look better and would be hard to fake as scum.

I just don't agree with your logic of not voting who gob is voting because you scumread them. Your read doesn't also seem to be advancing so it looks like a one track mind. You aren't even trying to see a world where gob could be town and ninja could be scum because your only focus is gob being scum.

That’s not the only reason, it’s one of several. Which you should know if you were reading my posts.

Okay. If gob was not voting ninja, what would your read on ninja be?

Townish at this point.

She responded really well to the case by Dann once she got back ITT, she gave a huge list of reads with reasoning and the reads seemed to have developed naturally based on what was going on in the thread. (see her read progression on me as an example) I also just think it is hard to post the huge walls she posted as mafia.

Has your read on her not changed at all based on those big posts?

[DarthPunk]

I think she's still the scummiest out of everyone

I have an open mind, feel free to post a case and convince me

[DarthPunk]

dunnstral why is superfluous' assertion about lurkers like the most interesting thing to you about this game so far

i don't think you're scum for lurking but i don't understand why you are picking at the things you are picking at

Well there's a lot of things that I don't feel like commenting on. Their assertions feel wrong so I felt like commenting on it.

How is it that you have so many posts on this forum and so few in this game?

I had a look through his recent games, it seemed to be fairly consistent (i didn't check for alignments)

[DarthPunk]

VOTE: DarthPunk

Im taking a stand.

lol ok.

[DarthPunk]

Just saying, mafia always try and get me eliminated. it's my most effective scum hunting tool.

[DarthPunk]

Have you finished your catchup grack? would be interested in your initial impressions/reads particularly for the TL crew.

[DarthPunk]

Have you finished your catchup grack? would be interested in your initial impressions/reads particularly for the TL crew.

No probably in about an hour.

Fair enough.

[DarthPunk]

I would really like ninjas answer as to why she townreads dann. It’s a very common mafia tactic to try and pocket someone right after they drop their scumread of them and this screams to me like that’s happening.

One of the biggest reasons why is because Dann seems to have his ear to the ground this game and is thus well aware of how much content I am putting out here. Given that, I think Dann would have to be completely bonkers to try and push me, of all people, with that fairly detailed post he wrote. A scum version of him HAS to know that of course I'm going to dive deep into all of that and rip it up, and he'd know that his argument was bullshit. Like why would he pick a fight with a lengthy response type of person who isn't afraid to get their hands dirty? It makes a lot more sense to do it as town and genuinely believing all of it to be true.

But let me also be clear about something, I would say I LEAN town. I do have some issues with not understanding Dann's line of thinking on everything, and it does seem like Dann drums up a lot of conjecture. He's put a LOT of words in my mouth. That absolutely can just be confirmation bias so it should not (and does not) mean that I scumread Dann. My read on Dann is light town, not solid town.

Looking through his reads in post 538, we're not perfectly aligned, but we're about 75% aligned on it. And his take on Darth, even though I do disagree with it, does at least seem to have some rationale behind it. Like I consider post 536 to be decent food for thought, but I still kinda lean towards it being more confirmation bias than anything else. I've seen people make way worse cases against people in this game and in a way less delicate manner, so I'm not going to take that read that I disagree with as clear evidence of guilt.

Ok maybe I’m wrong on ninja town after all

[DarthPunk]

I don't really think you are mafia, especially after you wrote that big post. I do suspect what Roden was doing in pushing whatshisname as their confidence felt faked. And now that you've pointed out I agree that Hu Tao's vote on you does not look good so they seem suspicious too.

Can you just summarize your thoughts on the players in the game so that we kind of have a sense of what your thoughts are and how you would like to progress things.

[DarthPunk]

I'd really like to be in the thread at the same time as OOO for a bit.

[DarthPunk]

I would really like ninjas answer as to why she townreads dann. It’s a very common mafia tactic to try and pocket someone right after they drop their scumread of them and this screams to me like that’s happening.

One of the biggest reasons why is because Dann seems to have his ear to the ground this game and is thus well aware of how much content I am putting out here. Given that, I think Dann would have to be completely bonkers to try and push me, of all people, with that fairly detailed post he wrote. A scum version of him HAS to know that of course I'm going to dive deep into all of that and rip it up, and he'd know that his argument was bullshit. Like why would he pick a fight with a lengthy response type of person who isn't afraid to get their hands dirty? It makes a lot more sense to do it as town and genuinely believing all of it to be true.

But let me also be clear about something, I would say I LEAN town. I do have some issues with not understanding Dann's line of thinking on everything, and it does seem like Dann drums up a lot of conjecture. He's put a LOT of words in my mouth. That absolutely can just be confirmation bias so it should not (and does not) mean that I scumread Dann. My read on Dann is light town, not solid town.

Looking through his reads in post 538, we're not perfectly aligned, but we're about 75% aligned on it. And his take on Darth, even though I do disagree with it, does at least seem to have some rationale behind it. Like I consider post 536 to be decent food for thought, but I still kinda lean towards it being more confirmation bias than anything else. I've seen people make way worse cases against people in this game and in a way less delicate manner, so I'm not going to take that read that I disagree with as clear evidence of guilt.

Ok maybe I’m wrong on ninja town after all

Ninja why are you hedging so hard on your town read of Dann here??

Is there any real distinction between lean town and town that causes you to spend so much time talking about why he is town and the spend so much time talking about why its only a -lean- and if it is only a lean, why spend so much time on it?

I guess none of that really makes sense in terms of solving or progressing your reads or the game.

[DarthPunk]

Is there any real distinction between lean town and town that causes you to spend so much time talking about why he is town and the spend so much time talking about why its only a -lean- and if it is only a lean, why spend so much time on it?

This sentence is cooked so ill try again in English,

Is there any real distinction between lean town and town?

Why spend so much time talking about why he is town to then undermine that effort talking about why it's only a -lean-?

Why does any of that matter enough for the post to exist?

[DarthPunk]

I'm going to start getting nervous if OOO spends huge chunks of time away from the thread by the way.

[DarthPunk]

I'm going to start getting nervous if OOO spends huge chunks of time away from the thread by the way.

I don't feel good about it but it seems like the best heuristic as to his alignment cause he so damn strong.

[DarthPunk]

I'm going to start getting nervous if OOO spends huge chunks of time away from the thread by the way.

Then we prepare the catapult for yeeting.

It must be done.

[DarthPunk]

I’m sad ooo hasn’t really been here, and since the first day the only time he’s been here is to go back and forth about some inane thing

That’s a big red flag btw

[DarthPunk]

Are ninja and dann ever mafia together?
Like the more I make arguments as to why dann is scummy from ninja’s perspective for the way he handled the ninja response the more I think dann is just scummy in general lol.

He is.

[DarthPunk]

Hey oats why are you town reading me by the way?

[DarthPunk]

Hey oats why are you town reading me by the way?

well for one everyone else is scum,
another is you feel like you are actually trying to make an effort to be nice to people even though it’s hard and it doesn’t feel like a scum dp thing to do

Is that something you would expect a town!do to do?

[DarthPunk]

I'd really like to be in the thread at the same time as OOO for a bit.

Im here now if you are. 5 mins and i am caught up.

I’ll be back in a couple of hours have to cook dinner and hang with the gf.

[DarthPunk]

I'd really like to be in the thread at the same time as OOO for a bit.

Im here now if you are. 5 mins and i am caught up.

I’ll be back in a couple of hours have to cook dinner and hang with the gf.

I have to go to work in 3 hrs or so and i am unable to play at work.

Ah shit. I might get some time but don’t stress too much irl is more important.

[DarthPunk]

Can you look at Dann again Rayn he looks scummy to me.

[DarthPunk]

Hey oats why are you town reading me by the way?

well for one everyone else is scum,
another is you feel like you are actually trying to make an effort to be nice to people even though it’s hard and it doesn’t feel like a scum dp thing to do

Is that something you would expect a town!do to do?

Yes?
Town dp wants to win the game by leading town

I read our last town game together. I did not play like this but it was like 9 years ago. So I was wondering if the change should be jarring for you.

[DarthPunk]

And maybe ninja but only if you have time.

[DarthPunk]

Or even Luca, once he got off the hook he just vanished.

Luca vibes town hard to me.

[DarthPunk]

Can you look at Dann again Rayn he looks scummy to me.

I really don't have a reason to believe he doesn't believe in what he is posting.

Is he trying to solve or trying to post cases

[DarthPunk]

Hey oats why are you town reading me by the way?

well for one everyone else is scum,
another is you feel like you are actually trying to make an effort to be nice to people even though it’s hard and it doesn’t feel like a scum dp thing to do

Is that something you would expect a town!do to do?

Yes?
Town dp wants to win the game by leading town

I read our last town game together. I did not play like this but it was like 9 years ago. So I was wondering if the change should be jarring for you.

Just because the actual tone is different doesn’t mean the intent is different.

OOO are you interested in this game or like not really

Well this is true.

[DarthPunk]

OOO are you interested in this game or like not really

I'm mostly trying to establish how people play and what to expect of them.
I am in no hurry, we have more than 5 irl day left.
I don't give a shit if you think i am interested or not.

OK I like this post.

[DarthPunk]

I'd really like to narrow down some realistic elim candidates, I'm not considering vivax basically for out of game reasons. I don't want him to get day one'd again.

I'm feeling good about Grack and oats, and I feel better about you when you are here.

I don't think gob is realistic because everyone is just dismissing him as lynch bait, and while he seems really scummy to me other people seem to read him as town so maybe I am missing something. If I consider him as a Kushmasta or something then I guess it makes sense.

I like flipping Roden here probably, because I think out of the viable lynch candidates, he is the most likely to flip scum and also gives a lot of information as there has been lots of stances taken regarding him and his play.

I could also flip a lurker but I generally feel this is a losing play unless there is some additional EV somewhere with that flip.

[DarthPunk]

I don't really think you are mafia, especially after you wrote that big post. I do suspect what Roden was doing in pushing whatshisname as their confidence felt faked. And now that you've pointed out I agree that Hu Tao's vote on you does not look good so they seem suspicious too.

Can you just summarize your thoughts on the players in the game so that we kind of have a sense of what your thoughts are and how you would like to progress things.

The fact that he left thread without answering this really bothers me by the way.

UNVOTE: gob
VOTE: dunnstral

[DarthPunk]

I find her really difficult to evaluate to be honest, because wherever she has played mafia before she clearly operates and analyzes the game on a set of fundamental principles that I agree with such as:

In post 341, gob wrote:
I read it and im not following sorry. Can you explain it again to me?

Okay. Then that confirms that you are, once again, just "posting for the sake of posting" and are not actively engaged in solving things for town.

And she is also pushing the thread along, making people justify their positions which is all good stuff.

Ninja can you post a list of your reads please.

I'll just copy and paste the notes I keep on my desktop.

TOWN
Luca Blight - active, good take in post 56
Dannflor - very active. Strangely aggressive? but still making good arguments
Oatsmaster - aggressive pushback on Roden, being a jerk, which is kinda townie tell

NULL
Outoforder - active, but acting in odd and suspicious ways, need better explanations
DarthPunk - very active, Post 57 struck me as sus and I commented on it
Vivax - very active, Back and forth with him over DarthPunk comment, but untrustworthy
Naerys - inactive
Hu Tao - inactive

SCUM
Gob - slightly more active but underwhelming, some bizarre play with the case on Vivax
Roden - was inactive, then strangely aggressive after I pushed him for it, defensive / dismissive
Dunnstral - inactive for a long period, pushed back on my activity level post

MalcolmTucker is afk so they could be anything.

what are the good arguments that dannflor has made?

I do wonder what Superfluous is referring to in this post with her post about Dannfloor if not the post about herself, which I know she says she missed in a later post. That's the bulk of his content that I've noted at this point and the most aggressive post that he's made.

This is why she is mafia if she is mafia. She has dann as very active and aggressive which does not match reality in a world in which she doesn't see the big case against her. It just isn't a realistic assessment of the state of his filter at that time without the post.

So is she lying about missing the post? Is her analysis of his play contrived?

Add that to the waffling/contradictions and the blatant image curation that is occurring and she is tough to read.

But I really do not understand how that assessment of Dann can come from town, so I guess she is just mafia.

[DarthPunk]

I was hoping for grack to push her more at the time.

[DarthPunk]

I agree re: Dunnstral I am fine to try and yeet him and see what happens. You know I love shenanigans

[DarthPunk]

But i don't really understand why she doesn't put me in scum category there.
There should be nothing wrong for her to do that, it would just give her more suspects.
Or is it just being irrational = mafia?

Scum and null are not that much different to mafia

The real question is why she town reads dann after apparently seeing only a vote post, on her, with no explanation.

When the best reason to think dann was town was the case she didn’t read…

[DarthPunk]

Dunnstral, Vivax, i dont really know.

Can you articulate why you believe I am mafia?

Because you have posted basically no substance at all.
I know some of what you think, i have no idea why you think what you think.

This is basically the issue because you aren’t accountable for any position you take as you aren’t really transparent about how you got there.

And we can’t really read you as town or as mafia easily because, again no idea what you are thinking or if you are even thinking at all.

[DarthPunk]

I don't really think you are mafia, especially after you wrote that big post. I do suspect what Roden was doing in pushing whatshisname as their confidence felt faked. And now that you've pointed out I agree that Hu Tao's vote on you does not look good so they seem suspicious too.

Can you just summarize your thoughts on the players in the game so that we kind of have a sense of what your thoughts are and how you would like to progress things.

The fact that he left thread without answering this really bothers me by the way.

UNVOTE: gob
VOTE: dunnstral

I am busy and can't spend all my time on this thread. I hope that you can acknowledge this and stop trying to use activity tells to read me.

I’m not doing any of that. Im not expecting you to use “all your time on the thread” I’m just expecting to generally know your thinking and to post some reads cause it seems to me you were avoiding it.

But I appreciate that you are here posting now fwiw

[DarthPunk]

Anyway I’m going to sleep. @Luca I would like your thoughts on my discussion with ooo if you have time, particularly the ninja stuff and your ooo read now

[DarthPunk]

UNVOTE: dunn

I’m busy today but kind of following along very superficially.

Don’t really want a lynch while I’m afk and would rather lynch roden right now.

I’ll post more when I have time. But got too close for comfort

[DarthPunk]

UNVOTE: dunn

I’m busy today but kind of following along very superficially.

Don’t really want a lynch while I’m afk and would rather lynch roden right now.

I’ll post more when I have time. But got too close for comfort

Don't really want a what?

Ahh shit.

Sorry maybe I should just replace out of the game if I keep doing it.

I was phone posting while on my date so I wasn’t thinking. Again

[DarthPunk]

I’ll be around tomorrow morning catching up with the thread while I’m at work. It was my -actual- bday today and had a date day with my partner so that’s why I haven’t been around.

I was skimming the thread every now and then.

Main thing is some issues with ninja her reads aren’t really consistent with themselves there are a couple of blatant examples that I need her to explain when I outline them tomorrow.

Anyway goodnight.

[DarthPunk]

I’ll be around tomorrow morning catching up with the thread while I’m at work. It was my -actual- bday today and had a date day with my partner so that’s why I haven’t been around.

I was skimming the thread every now and then.

Main thing is some issues with ninja her reads aren’t really consistent with themselves there are a couple of blatant examples that I need her to explain when I outline them tomorrow.

Anyway goodnight.

Happy birthday!

Is it really worth time investigating ninja more? Feel like if shes scum, she wouldnt make some of the posts shes made

But also I think she makes some posts that she wouldn’t/couldn’t/shouldn’t make as town.

Why wouldn’t it be worth the time to figure out her alignment if I have doubts about it lol?

Are you so convinced she’s town?

[DarthPunk]

Anyway it may be that I decide she is town and just isn’t thinking straight. But there were a couple of things she said that really pinged me to want to look further.

[DarthPunk]

I'm around now catching up, I am reading from page 32 so around 18 pages.

I'm going to stick my thoughts in a big catch-up post, but I will spoiler it so you don't have to read the huge wall.

But Ill also be around to interact in the current game, but I don't have a grasp of the game beyond page 32 right now.

[DarthPunk]

i wanna kill DP

That's interesting cause the last post I read you thought I was town again. Now I am scum without having posted anything new?

[DarthPunk]

What has changed between This post

VOTE: vivax don't really think it is darthpunk anymore

why not?

mainly because several people who appear to be very familiar with Darth Punk's game disagreed with my read on that slot. and I can see where DP's distaste for my cases come from. There's a sort of "I know I'm right and you're stupid" tone in his reaction to my push on him that I lean towny. I think scum probably would've been attracted to piece-by-piece dismantling my case instead of outright dismissing it

and this post:

i wanna kill DP

When I really haven't been around.

[DarthPunk]

i wanna kill DP

That's interesting cause the last post I read you thought I was town again. Now I am scum without having posted anything new?

ya i changed my mind

Why? I didn't post anything. Are your reads just arbitrary?

[DarthPunk]

my mind

Based on what?

[DarthPunk]

VOTE: Dannflor

[DarthPunk]

i reread your posts and came to a different conclusion

Tell me about it.

Cause it seems like you just flip flop hard based on the same evidence and I don't understand your read progression at all.

[DarthPunk]

It's a legitmate question Dann. And that is not a legitmate answer, at least it doesn't give anyone anything.
You know how expressing your reads work, right?

I know, I will explain

I was responding in that way to DP because it seemed like he was trying to "gotcha" me by saying it is ludicrous for me to change my read even though he hasn't been around

It's kinda emblematic of my read on DP overall tbh

he seems more focused on "getting people" then like actually sorting

I feel the same way when I look back at how he called my way way early game vote on Out of Order "Terrible." and jumped on me

Do you honestly expect me to respond to that differently than I did?

[DarthPunk]

i wanna kill DP

That's interesting cause the last post I read you thought I was town again. Now I am scum without having posted anything new?

ya i changed my mind

Why? I didn't post anything. Are your reads just arbitrary?

like the "Are your reads just arbitrary" assumes a level of malice and shows that he's going into the discussion with an intent to try and make me look bad

or at least that's how it comes off to me

it wasn't just "hey why did your read change"

it was "why did your read change and also DISCREDIT"

I am discrediting it. Why would I give credit to it? Because at best when you post that you are bad town, and at worst you are mafia, either way, why should I respond to that in any way other than I did?

Any way, I am not interested in shitting up the thread responding to this.

Go ahead and explain yourself while I catch up to the thread.

[DarthPunk]

Do you honestly expect me to respond to that differently than I did?

Honestly? I don't know you and don't necessarily know how you react to stuff as each alignment. But I do think generally town has more curiosity about read changes like that, and are less prone to jump on perceived inconsistencies as scummy.

I think your gameplay pretty much consists solely of jumping on perceived inconsistencies in everyone's posts but not really doing so in a way that shows you're curious about my alignment.

When you started asking me about my read change on you you began the discussion ready to shed me in a negative light

when you called my OOO vote in the early game terrible you didn't bother asking me my thought process behind it until I started interrogating *you*

Inconsistencies in thought processes with zero evidence are like the number one way to find mafia in my opinion. You are an active poster that I never really considered to be town. Then I get back to the thread and you have basically completely backflipped off your read, when I know that nothing about the evidence has changed.

I already was sus on you for not really believing your reads and that you just post cases for the sake of it. So it just looks like a mafia claim to me tbh.

Why do you think I am the best yeet today? I cannot understand how any decent town player could hold that belief, so could you please explain more than just a summary that is basically untruthful?

Most of my posts are questions trying to get more information or clarify perspectives. So clearly curious.

As to the sorting, I am sorting so meh. Maybe you are just not happy I haven't sorted you into the town column

[DarthPunk]

I am convicted

You can say that, but you only really talk the talk, you don't walk the walk.

You backflip the backflip - literally.

[DarthPunk]

Look, I've laid out over the last couple pages why I think DP is approaching the game with a scum mindset.

Generally, I don't think he cares about detecting alignment, I think he cares about looking good and making sure others in the game look bad.

If everyone looks at that and decides it has no merit or doesn't apply to DP, whatever. I'll just sheep my town reads and compromise.

But I believe in this read a lot so I would appreciate at least some consideration of it rather than a *shrug* and telling me DP will self resolve.

Can you actually make the case with examples please, cause you say this, but It isn't actually clear to me that this is anything more than something you are just saying.

[DarthPunk]

This Dann vs DP thing has good odds of just being TvT for the same reason I wanted to have a quarrel with Dann earlier.

What was that reason?

Being antagonistic because someone saw their status challenged.

Dann is supposed to be something like a personal champion of the site I think.

Maybe the fact DP could outshine him in the long term wants him to shut DP down.
It‘s kinda townie, but won‘t be helpful. Every duck measuring contest on TL ended up being tvt.

This rings true to me. I can see this being the case if Dann is town, I can also see the Ego flex lynch attempt if he is mafia.

[DarthPunk]

I got completely side tracked by whatever it was that dann was trying to do.

Im going to go back and read the thread

[DarthPunk]

Literally nothing in this case makes me mafia.

I also keep returning to this response to my initial push on DP.

DarthPunk's response isn't to try and figure out whether I'm "bad town" pushing him or mafia pushing him. Instead his initial inclination is to focus on how the case doesn't make him mafia. Again, I don't think a town player's inclination here is to try and debunk the case point by point.

DP spends 568 doing pretty much exactly that

Dann why do you say this now about my response

I can see where DP's distaste for my cases come from. There's a sort of "I know I'm right and you're stupid" tone in his reaction to my push on him that I lean towny. I think scum probably would've been attracted to piece-by-piece dismantling my case instead of outright dismissing it

And you said this about it at the time you had read the same posts. how can you hold both these opinions?

[DarthPunk]

Literally nothing in this case makes me mafia.

I also keep returning to this response to my initial push on DP.

DarthPunk's response isn't to try and figure out whether I'm "bad town" pushing him or mafia pushing him. Instead his initial inclination is to focus on how the case doesn't make him mafia. Again, I don't think a town player's inclination here is to try and debunk the case point by point.

DP spends 568 doing pretty much exactly that

Dann why do you say this now about my response

I can see where DP's distaste for my cases come from. There's a sort of "I know I'm right and you're stupid" tone in his reaction to my push on him that I lean towny. I think scum probably would've been attracted to piece-by-piece dismantling my case instead of outright dismissing it

And you said this about it at the time you had read the same posts. how can you hold both these opinions?

This is -literally- a completely opposite interpretation of the response.

[DarthPunk]

Ninja can i get a reads list with every explanation being 1-2 sentences?

I am complying with the request of no more than 2 sentences per person. If any of you want more detail on any of these reads, please ask and we can have at it. But I will be mercifully brief this time lol.

TOWN READS

Luca Blight

- I've been on the same wavelength as them for pretty much the entire game. I think they're going into good detail on their reads and putting in a level of effort that suggests town.

OutOfOrder

- Pretty much the same reasons, same wavelengths, same avenues of discussion, and they've really been bringing it lately with pressing views and such.

Dannflor

- Good drill-down into things, applying the right pressure in the right places, staying very involved in everything.

DarthPunk

- I've come to appreciate his style of taking things as they come and responding appropriately to everything. He's asking lots of questions, trying to clarify things, pushing in the right ways.

SLIGHT TOWN READS

(as in, I don't read them quite as strongly as town, but they still land in "town" territory rather than "null" territory)

Oatsmaster

- I wonder about some of the things he does and he's a little bit of a loose cannon, but he hasn't done anything that seems especially scummy to me and I appreciated his push on Roden.

Grackaroni

- I felt good about him after our last back-and-forth. I haven't seen enough from him to put him into firm town territory and I hope he continues to catch up more and contribute more, but for now I'm okay leaning town on him.

Gob

- I would put Gob in the null category, but process of elimination and the strength of other reads bumps him up here to a slight town read. I think I have come to understand what he's all about and I think he's just being an extremely blase townie.

Dunnstral

- There's not a ton of content from Dunnstral but his latest contributions are more encouraging and useful and I find myself on the same wavelength with him. Earlier today I was torn on whether the 3rd scum was either Dunnstral or Hu Tao, I ISO'd both and came down with a much stronger conviction of guilt on Hu Tao, so Dunnstral bumps up to town category.

NULL READ

Naerys

- Hasn't said or done nearly enough for me to classify Naerys as anything other than null.

SCUM READS

Hu Tao

- I don't like their reads or actions, I think they've been largely unhelpful, and their latest contributions after catching up were extremely underwhelming.

Vivax

- His reads are super weird, his actions make no sense, the people he thinks are guilty are pretty obviously town to me, the people he thinks are innocent don't deserve the townread he gives them.

Roden

- Overly defensive and seems to have vanished after getting more heat.


Overall I actually feel very good about this reads list, probably the most confidence I've felt about my reads so far. I do feel like Hu Tao / Vivax / Roden are the scum team here and it seems like a lot of things that have happened in this game support that theory.

I have a problem with this part:

TOWN READS

Luca Blight

- I've been on the same wavelength as them for pretty much the entire game. I think they're going into good detail on their reads and putting in a level of effort that suggests town.

OutOfOrder

- Pretty much the same reasons, same wavelengths, same avenues of discussion, and they've really been bringing it lately with pressing views and such.

I don't really understand how this viewpoint is possible, OOO and Luca have been coming into conflict all game pretty much so how can Ninja be on the same wavelength with both of them?

[DarthPunk]

I know i am town so

the only reason Ninja says that as mafia is if she is mafia with Luca

so i dont care atm.

Why?

[DarthPunk]

Spoiler:

This is IML. As soon as a majority is reached, the lunch is served. Drumming for quick votes is more mafia indicative than town indicative. We don‘t have enough information.

Consider this a FoS on Dannflor.

I'm actually thinking now, contrary to before, that this might be a mafia post. I mean the theory behind this is legit, but we are playing on a site where RVS is pretty common and Vivax knows it for sure. There is simply no reason to say this, especially FoS anyone for a RV.

[...]
In this instance

I can see Outoforder having that certain abrasiveness and pushing notions I mostly can't find myself agreeing with

so he's the person who takes the heat while his team tries to appear reasonable. Main point that makes me vote him is how he approached gob which wasn't even a real read, he just said mafia wouldn't use such terrible reasoning.
[...]

This is simply what happens in every single game when i am town. Yet Vivax somehow deduces this as a scum tell for me. Note that he doesn't even think gob is mafia.

[...]

We differ a lot in how we approach gob. You tend to just take people playing in a scummy manner at face value while to me he looks just like a player who has fun being contrarian and has zero fear of dying

while annoying the hell out of people who take the game extremely seriously. In that way, I prefer to just treat him as a little thorn in the side who draws too much attention for the game's good (no offense though, I find it amusing).
[...]

I specifically find it suspicious from Oats though that he treated gob in that exceedingly serious manner while I did in a different one as described above

. I mean sure, he doesn't make sense but if he's town that's a main priority for scum to push. I don't know his alignment but I could see him being town shark bait. He's not even triyng to be scummy on purpose, he's just... Derp?

Made the post a clickable spoiler since i assume that was the intent

First underline, that's

exactly how i did and have treated gob

, i am scummy.
Second underline, Oats did the opposite, he is scummy.
What is scummy? Is every singe way you treat gob scummy or what?
There is simply no reason to assume Oats has done anything out of his town range anyways. Vivax should also know that.

Oats mostly from his abrasiveness and the whole stuff I already explained surrounding the way he handled gob who I saw as lunch bait at the time.
You because of the interaction with Ninja that I explained. Would have expected more pushback from you or let's call it OMGUS if you will.
OOO similarly to Oats because of his initial bad vibe I got.

Vivax just described how DP would act as mafia and turned the whole thing around so that

that

would look town and

this doesn't

.
Similarly Vivax just described exactly how me and Oats appear as town, rather than as mafia. Sure,

both of us could probably act like that as mafia

but there is simply no reaso nto believe either of us is mafia

because

of that.

DP what's your excuse of not commenting on this post?
Same goes for Grack.

What did you want me to say?

I noted it for later and was more interested in something else that I was filter diving at the time.

[DarthPunk]

The main thing I'm bothered about by Luca is that he hasn't really pushed anything himself and doesn't have any strong scum reads outside of the consensus Roden

into...

okay that's two other people beside DP who said my case on DP is bad

I will sleep on it and reconsider

as a side note I don't really vibe with the Luca case overall, I feel like it largely comes down to him not being as present and being more calm than the average player here

into, lets vote for Naerys.

Guy is mafia. Clearly.

[DarthPunk]

The main thing I'm bothered about by Luca is that he hasn't really pushed anything himself and doesn't have any strong scum reads outside of the consensus Roden

into...

okay that's two other people beside DP who said my case on DP is bad

I will sleep on it and reconsider

as a side note I don't really vibe with the Luca case overall, I feel like it largely comes down to him not being as present and being more calm than the average player here

into, lets vote for Naerys.

Guy is mafia. Clearly.

IM not even being flippant we should yeet him.

[DarthPunk]

The main thing I'm bothered about by Luca is that he hasn't really pushed anything himself and doesn't have any strong scum reads outside of the consensus Roden

into...

okay that's two other people beside DP who said my case on DP is bad

I will sleep on it and reconsider

as a side note I don't really vibe with the Luca case overall, I feel like it largely comes down to him not being as present and being more calm than the average player here

into, lets vote for Naerys.

Guy is mafia. Clearly.

Possible town explanation is that he also actively counters the majority’s thinking, maybe unconsciously.

Otherwise it‘s like he described the current concerns about Luca in en earlier post and then decided to defend him instead while dismissing said former arguments.

I though Luca to be townie earlier on for his calm demeanor as well but that changed when I looked at how he isolated Roden according to thread sentiment and TR a lot of players.

The complacency about not having formed a clear TR on Dunn, Hu and Naerys sticks out as opportunistic. It‘s like the post communicated ‚hey it‘s okay I think everyone suspecting Roden can be town. Let‘s do it‘

Given the overall contributions I‘d prefer to prioritize a Luca lim first, but I am open to Dann in case the majority requires it (which is to say I‘d hammer if you want to do that first).

Absolutely not, how are we supposed to play like this when Dann just comes into the thread with seemingly100% confident reads for spurious reasons, then flip-flops on his reads, is not able to be held accountable for his thoughts, or perspectives changing from literally one extreme to the other, and then, without fail ignores the backlash by disappearing from the thread to once again not be held accountable.

People seem to treat him like he is a good player, so then I need to hold him to account as a good player.

[DarthPunk]

Spoiler:

This is IML. As soon as a majority is reached, the lunch is served. Drumming for quick votes is more mafia indicative than town indicative. We don‘t have enough information.

Consider this a FoS on Dannflor.

I'm actually thinking now, contrary to before, that this might be a mafia post. I mean the theory behind this is legit, but we are playing on a site where RVS is pretty common and Vivax knows it for sure. There is simply no reason to say this, especially FoS anyone for a RV.

[...]
In this instance

I can see Outoforder having that certain abrasiveness and pushing notions I mostly can't find myself agreeing with

so he's the person who takes the heat while his team tries to appear reasonable. Main point that makes me vote him is how he approached gob which wasn't even a real read, he just said mafia wouldn't use such terrible reasoning.
[...]

This is simply what happens in every single game when i am town. Yet Vivax somehow deduces this as a scum tell for me. Note that he doesn't even think gob is mafia.

[...]

We differ a lot in how we approach gob. You tend to just take people playing in a scummy manner at face value while to me he looks just like a player who has fun being contrarian and has zero fear of dying

while annoying the hell out of people who take the game extremely seriously. In that way, I prefer to just treat him as a little thorn in the side who draws too much attention for the game's good (no offense though, I find it amusing).
[...]

I specifically find it suspicious from Oats though that he treated gob in that exceedingly serious manner while I did in a different one as described above

. I mean sure, he doesn't make sense but if he's town that's a main priority for scum to push. I don't know his alignment but I could see him being town shark bait. He's not even triyng to be scummy on purpose, he's just... Derp?

Made the post a clickable spoiler since i assume that was the intent

First underline, that's

exactly how i did and have treated gob

, i am scummy.
Second underline, Oats did the opposite, he is scummy.
What is scummy? Is every singe way you treat gob scummy or what?
There is simply no reason to assume Oats has done anything out of his town range anyways. Vivax should also know that.

Oats mostly from his abrasiveness and the whole stuff I already explained surrounding the way he handled gob who I saw as lunch bait at the time.
You because of the interaction with Ninja that I explained. Would have expected more pushback from you or let's call it OMGUS if you will.
OOO similarly to Oats because of his initial bad vibe I got.

Vivax just described how DP would act as mafia and turned the whole thing around so that

that

would look town and

this doesn't

.
Similarly Vivax just described exactly how me and Oats appear as town, rather than as mafia. Sure,

both of us could probably act like that as mafia

but there is simply no reaso nto believe either of us is mafia

because

of that.

DP what's your excuse of not commenting on this post?
Same goes for Grack.

What did you want me to say?

I noted it for later and was more interested in something else that I was filter diving at the time.

I am sorry but for both you and Grack i think this should have been the most interesting thing 2024, for mine and Vivax' alignment, so don't bother if i have reservations against you because of it.

Yeah maybe I just don't get it, there were things that I agree with but I really didn't agree with your conclusion that Vivax was mafia so meh.

[DarthPunk]

What's your opinion on grack?

I have read the thread properly until page 33. I skimmed a bit yesterday and I have been interacting with the recent stuff. Based on that being my grasp of the game I liked several of his early posts where he was reading closely while catching up and he had transparent thoughts behind his questions and observations. I wish he did more with them. But he looked town to me.

[DarthPunk]

I am just going to stop posting until I have caught up with the thread. I am really not used to not having a grasp on the game.

[DarthPunk]

I am just going to stop posting until I have caught up with the thread. I am really not used to not having a grasp on the game.

I think if you trust me and rayn your grasp is good enough.

We can add Oats to the mix if he stops being so rude, so we can add Ninja to the mix if she wants to be around.

I just struggle a bit when her intent is to be so artsy, but I understand the motivation in the current climate. It is a good-oriented one.

To be clear, I trust rayn more than you right now. Because I don't think rayn would do this whole 2 man town circle schtick as maf but I KNOW you would pocket rayn as maf.

And I haven't read the part of the thread where apparently rayn thinks you are confirmed town yet, so lets see if I agree

[DarthPunk]

Im actually pretty sure i cant be around tomorrow unless a couple of hours in my evening.
I gotta drive my better half to work in about 3 hrs, and gotta be at work in about 7 hrs.....

Thats cool, we have a long day. Soooo town favoured, so we should use it.

[DarthPunk]

Im gonna say that unless Ninja is portraying a character that isnt real in which case I think shed be playing more mafia, shes town.
I dont think it makes much sense to say the things shes said if she were mafia. especially the stuff regarding the game getting too personal.

I disagree with this assessment, I have used tricks like that in the past.

[DarthPunk]

Im gonna say that unless Ninja is portraying a character that isnt real in which case I think shed be playing more mafia, shes town.
I dont think it makes much sense to say the things shes said if she were mafia. especially the stuff regarding the game getting too personal.

Yeah she's probably town. She seems very self-aware of herself but when she makes posts she makes mistakes, like very obvious mistakes that contradict with what she has said before.
For instance, she puts Dunnstral in scum column in her list post, then posts reasons why he is mafia and says he is null.

I find it very unlike that someone who seems so self-aware (even if you read her as scum this is true so it would apply also if she's town) gives people ammunition like this to attack her. As mafia i would say with 90% certainty she would be very careful and definitely more likely to keep her story straight.

This is a better reason for Ninja to be town, but i still don't think it satisfies me.

[DarthPunk]

I have a problem with this part:

TOWN READS

Luca Blight

- I've been on the same wavelength as them for pretty much the entire game. I think they're going into good detail on their reads and putting in a level of effort that suggests town.

OutOfOrder

- Pretty much the same reasons, same wavelengths, same avenues of discussion, and they've really been bringing it lately with pressing views and such.

I don't really understand how this viewpoint is possible, OOO and Luca have been coming into conflict all game pretty much so how can Ninja be on the same wavelength with both of them?

Well there was a time that I had no grasp on what OOO was doing or saying, but after I cast my vote on him, it seemed like they suddenly started bringing their A-game and had much better and easier-to-understand contributions. My read is on that portion of OOO's involvement here.

Frankly it has rattled me to see that my read on Luca is not shared, that it seems like a lot of folks are interested in pushing the angle that he is scum, whereas I legitimately had him as the towniest in my book. It reminds me that I kinda suck at this game lol.

I guess I can see Luca as scum, maybe? I need to review his reads list but I thought he was pretty well aligned with me. Which, again, freaks me out if he's scum, because that means my reads are completely wrong.

If this is the case, and both looked town to you, and you were on the same wavelength of both, what do you make of the Luca - OOO interactions, because I couldn't really make much of it at all, so perhaps if you were so much on their wave length you can enlighten me.

[DarthPunk]

let's do roden

If I'm completely wrong on Dannflor, Roden is the read I most expect to be my incorrect scum read. If we yeet Roden today and he flips town, my back-up theory is Vivex / Hu Tao / Dannflor.

I'm having some serious buyer's remorse putting Dannflor into firm town territory in my post and I'm starting to wonder if I got carried away with thinking he'd be nuts to try and frame me.

Someone talk some sense into me? Does anyone want to take up an angle with me on how my read on Dannflor is wrong?

you know just because you put me as town doesn't mean you can't change your read on a whim

something that bothers me about your posts (which was part of the basis of my initial case on you) is that you feel the need to signpost all of your reads and the changes therein, and that type of self consciousness comes from scum a lot who feel the need to make sure their internal consistency is visible to everyone (since it is fake)

but you can just like... change your mind

Does anyone think this is suspicious? This was on my mind again after I talked about why I think reads lists are so important. Dann is here arguing otherwise and trying to create a space for people to change their minds on a whim and not have to account for it. Is that a sentiment people agree with around here?

Good post, and almost prescient based on what happened with Dann recently.

[DarthPunk]

Dann is here arguing otherwise and trying to create a space for people to change their minds on a whim and not have to account for it. Is that a sentiment people agree with around here?

You can change your mind and give reasons after. Hes saying that you dont have to justify the change before it occurs, which is something scum do a lot to avoid suspicion of exactly what you are saying. Thats what signposting is.

Dann isnt arguing that reads lists arent important.

So where is he arguing that I'm justifying my changes BEFORE they happen?

Is he just making that part up?

Seems to me like every time my mind has changed on someone or something, my actions on it came afterwards, not prior to them.

I guess I don't understand what "signposting" is then. Give me an example? It's not a word I've ever seen in this game.

More importantly, though, is Dann making up a case against me that isn't real?

[DarthPunk]

I'm asking if I have actually done this, or if he is fabricating this case.

If I've done this, I want to see an actual, concrete, quoted example of me doing so.

you did it for instance when you were voting for me but already telling basically youre gonna vote for gob.

Ugh, I am getting really tired of people just referring to things I did without actually quoting me.

EVIDENCE, PEOPLE. USE IT. STOP JUST TALKING ABOUT THINGS THAT HAPPENED AND SHOW THEM HAPPENING.

I don't know why I'm getting frustrated this morning lol but I think I am a little bothered that people are just saying "X did Y" without actually demonstrating that X did Y. Let's see some real evidence, folks.

Good post.

[DarthPunk]

Alright who do you think we should go? Please don’t say darth punk

is there a reason to strongly town read DP

or do you just think there are far better lim candidates

Dann testing the waters for a flip on his DP read.

[DarthPunk]

So explain to me how it’s only townie to do what you did

I think that type of read fluidity is a lot harder (at least for me) to replicate as scum and it largely stems from wanting to be right and not really caring how I look

but I already said this so we probably just won't agree

Setting the ground for backflipping on reads.

[DarthPunk]

I am more amicable and diplomatic as mafia. I rarely take risks. I think if I had to pick my mafia version for this game it would be much more similar to how Luca Blight plays.
Maybe I should scumread him after all.

okay so i read this and think about how you went "let's fight Dann"

and then immediately backed off

I think you are more concerned with appearing dominant/superior in the thread rather than solving it.

That bugs me. And I am erratic like that as times.

Agree.

[DarthPunk]

I mean I think in general scum tend to be more static and less fluid in their reads, that's the common trend in my opinion. I think making a big case on someone then immediately backing off is like, not the intuitive scum move vs. tunneling someone

uhh basically, I'm trying very hard as town to improve my read accuracy and that means not just sticking to the first scum read if I get good evidence to the contrary

Im not really sure how this isn’t replicable in your scum play even from your perspective considering it’s just
Step 1: case a townie that you know can defend themselves
Step 2: flip off them when they inevitably reply.
Step 3: make the exact same arguments you are making right now.

Especially because you seem insanely aware that you are doing that on purpose.

Agree.