Mini 1243: Magician Mafia (Game Over)

[saulres]

@spring: Why lurk? Is actively playing the game not fun for you?

[saulres]

I don't really like RVS

/me highfives Junpei.

1)

Spoiler: Answer

Trick question. The poem is about your cage, not mine. I don't have a cage.

2) Logic. I like to solve problems. But if I need to rely on my gut, I will.

3) A little bit of both, depending on the situation.

4) I doubt it. I assume I'd still be criticizing myself. So I'd behave pretty much the same.

First!
Don't mind me, I'll just lurk till page 10.

Are you serious? It isn't pro-town to intentionally lurk the first 10 pages of the game

/me highfives Junpei again.

[saulres]

@saulres - you've played with junpei before?

No, I have not. I've played with Amrun, and I've played with springlullaby, but not with anyone else in this game.

Why do you ask?

[saulres]

The high fives were because I agreed with two of the statements. Nothing more.

Glad to see spring's reneged on her lurk, though.

[saulres]

Wait what?

Clearly I'm missing something here. What did I do to deserve a vote so quickly? Or is that still RVS? (That's one of the reasons why I hate RVS by the way -- I don't understand when it ends.)

I also don't understand Vi's posts. What is it about fire and ice he -- she? -- (curse you and your lack of gender selection!) doesn't like? Is Vi really so anti-Pat Benatar? Or anti-Robert Frost?

Also why was I lumped with 4nxi3ty, and Sathorsis?

Although I do like the RP with the theme, and am more than willing to get into handcuffs and lock myself in an underwater box and disappear...

[saulres]

... only to magically reappear in another post!

Ta-da!

[saulres]

Saulres: how many games have you played?

This is my fifth.

1 offsite, where I started as town but was converted to scum.

When I Googled all the new terms the other players were throwing out in that game, it kept bringing me here, so when I decided I liked it I signed up for a newbie which is still ongoing. While that's happened I played in two others, 1 finished, and 1 completed. In both those finished ones I was town.

Vi -- great job! While I was falling asleep last night I figured out exactly who your slot is. LOL Danny!

[saulres]

1)

This game has partial no reveal. This means that character name and alignment color only will be posted. The color

green

will be what is typically considered to be town. If you are color-blind let the moderator know so he may state it more explicitly.

No Reveal

[saulres]

His reaction to my vote though is absolutely scumtastic.

It is? Please elaborate. I had seen you vote for me with no reason, in a post where you quoted Vi and no one else, so I questioned why. I don't see how that's a scumtell. If anything I'd read it as "Vi signalled her scumbuddies to vote for the people she listed without voting for them" and you following along.

[saulres]

Ace not posting yet is ridiculous, so are Saul, Spring, and Riggs not voting anyone.

I DO WHAT I WANT

I don't really like RQS but I know some players like to throw fits when someone doesn't answer your questions.

Hypocrite much?

[saulres]

Finally got a chance to catch up. First a couple of questions:

1)

*opens mystery box to reveal

a one-shot Cult Cop ability

I wiki'd what a Cult is, and I know what a Cop is -- what's a "Cult Cop"? A member of a Cult with Cop abilities, or a Cop who can detect if someone's Cult or not?

2)

The fact that Vi concurred with another vote meant to me that there was something scummy about saulres

Why does Vi's opinion hold so much sway over you, Junpei?

Okay, now the case and the vote:

4ni3ty: In the post right before this one, you agree with Amrun that Shift looks like scum, so you promptly follow Vi's solo-wagon onto Crab Canon? That's seems curious to me.

In 34 you interact with Vi saying her -- (digression: Vi could you please gesture something to indicate your gender?) -- saying her posts make you look bad. In 24 you say interaction "allows us to see what a player is doing like buddying for example". Using your own advice, I looked at the interaction in 34, and it sure feels like buddying with Vi.

Whether Vi is scum or not, both of the above points seem like buddying. Whether it's scum buddying a scumbuddy or scum false-buddying to set someone up later, it's too suspicious for me to ignore.

Your 105 is bizarre as well. You tell shift he needs to distance from me and ace. Funny, I never saw him buddying with me or Ace. All I saw was tunneling on me and hoping Ace would contribute. I don't know what you were trying to accomplish with that post, but it seems misdirecting, and scummy.

So, yeah. Scumvibes all around.

VOTE: 4nxi3ty

[saulres]

You so don't need to quote the whole thing to highlight two words.

How do you know there's no cult in this game unless you're scum with more information than town?

Besides, it was a question for a clarification of the term, I didn't imply anything with it.

And no, I've never heard the term "buddying" applied to townies. Townies don't know who each other are until at least one's confirmed, so how could they buddy at this point in this game?

[saulres]

I'm not seeing buddying in your run-together quote. I see "Ace not posting yet is ridiculous".

PROTIP: Preview your posts and make sure they're formatted legibly.

[saulres]

I'm not seeing buddying in your

link

. I see "Ace not posting yet is ridiculous".

No difference.

[saulres]

Neither. It's a commentary on play style and choices. Not every post is distancing or buddying.

Of course with Shift it could also have been a joke. Shift jokes a lot, according to his responses after he's called out on something.

[saulres]

figuring out who Vi is and realizing that it is likely a town role

I figured it out but I don't understand why you say it's likely a town role. Clarify please?

[saulres]

You're using Mod Meta to determine alignments?

Isn't that an amazingly dangerous slope?

[saulres]

Okay, yes. Thanks for clarifying.

[saulres]

What the hell do the images in scottyrulezs' posts mean?

I mean, with Vi's, I can look at the file name and figure it out. But not scotty's.

[saulres]

Thanks for the image-decoding, CC.

4nxi3ty got a lot better as he posted about Shift and about CC. Really not understanding saulres vote on him in 127. He seems to pick up on a lot of things that aren't actually scummy.

They're not? How are they not?

Here were my points. Please explain how they're not scummy:

Point 1: Thinks Shift is scum and then, out of nowhere, with no further explanation, votes Crab Canon. He still hasn't provided any solid reasons, eventually saying "Vibes and fluff" in 167.

Point 2: Interactions with Vi. Based on these interactions I see 4nxi3ty being Vi's "role partner" -- if you've figured out who Vi is then you'll know what I mean -- and it sure seems that he's buddying with her (either as scumbuddy or as a setup if they're on opposing sides).

Point 3: Strawman argument of his own that shift is either distancing or buddying with both me and Ace.

[saulres]

Scotty: Regarding Vi's post restriction, you see it as a red flag because CC says "there is nothing she can do about it", right? Because it seems to mean that CC

knows

that she's not faking it, and the only way they'd know that is if they communicated with her outside the thread.

Assuming that there is knowledge, may I remind you that we're in a closed setup? That communication could have happened between scum,

or

between masons. Given who Vi's role likely is, it could be either. Or it could have just been an assumption. It's really not an alignment tell in any way, but might become one when either of them flip.

[saulres]

Sorry about the misspelling, sotty.

Townies scratch their heads and twiddle their beards wondering what is going on. What can Vi post? What can't she post? Is she really restricted or this this some gambit for reactions, or worse, a gambit by scum so they don't have to commit in thread? Townies then question Vi and make up their mind depending on what she posts, if she is telling the truth or not. Lets pretend at the start of the game Vi isn't very helpful with this. Suggests she would be modkilled for talking about her restriction and isn't very helpful to the town. The town is perplexed.

Huh. I'm a townie and I never thought twice about the post restriction. I don't care if it's a real restriction or not -- it's

great

RP for the role Vi presumably received and she's usually communicating just fine. Where she isn't someone comes in to clarify and she nods or shakes her head.

Seems to me like you're trying to make a problem where one doesn't exist. Your whole argument seems based on CC already being scum. I was looking for why you made that assumption and I was having trouble finding it.

[saulres]

VP's twisting and squirming thought his pressure has been pretty bad. I don't think he has reacted well to our vote at all. What do you think?

By VP you mean CC, I'll try to keep that straight. The interaction between your hydra and that hydra is most likely the next thing I'm going to turn my attention to, to see if I can read anything from it.

[saulres]

/me begins thinking about who could be the other in Vi's group of three roles is. He knows who Vi's role is, knows who Vi's partner role is (the role not the player for sure yet, although he has his suspicions) and wonders if the third has the initials ca.

[saulres]

A lot of the fun for me in this game is figuring out the scenarios to try to see what makes sense. Like unraveling a detective story.

Plus yes, I think it's a pro-town move to look for connections which could be scum. The three Vi pointed out as being on her bandwagon I've noticed myself, in particular the way the only two non-RVS votes you've made are to jump on her bandwagons. Both of those were made at what appear to be your first real opportunity. Why are you sheeping Vi?

[saulres]

Riggs, do you have a reason of your own to vote for Ace? You haven't provided one.

And sotty, Crab -- thanks for the advice. Rest assured I don't say everything that's on my mind, but I do try to gather more information when I have questions.

[saulres]

Boy this game has a lot of different bandwagons. Here I just finished my analysis of the sotty vs. cc debate, coming up with sotty being scummier than cc, only to find that now the leading bandwagon is on ace. Time to read again.

Welcome, fishy, fishy, fishy, ooh!

[saulres]

I already did that. Doesn't mean I shouldn't look for more scum. There's not just one.

[saulres]

Oh no, I have more. But I can only place one vote at a time.

Whenever a large bandwagon forms, though, I like to look at it to see who it's against, who's on it, why they're on it, and what I can tell from it. And if I find someone scummier than my current vote I may change it. Also if I see we're nearing deadline I may switch to a less-scummier read to avoid a no lynch.

Pedit: LOL @CC

[saulres]

Can someone explain the wagon on Ace for me?

Near as I can tell, it's there because Ace defended CC. Vi voted for him and then sotty and 4nxi3ty sheeped. Riggs joined it because -- well, because sotty's on it and Ace thinks sotty is scum and bussing Ace.

Do I have that right? Because I don't see what the big deal is. Is there something I'm missing?

[saulres]

If I understand you correctly, oh silent one, you're saying that Ace is being voted for because he was heavily attacking Junpei, then with no warning whatsoever dropped the case, incriminated himself by supporting CC and voting sottyrulez, and then -- returned as a Muslim?

Okay, I can't make sense of that last part. But if I've correctly interpreted the rest, then the only thing in addition to my 288 is that he dropped his case on Junpei. Possibly based on:

I see nothing by Junpei that makes me want to change wagons.

Do I have it straight now?

pedit: I only skimmed the fish's post but I find it fascinating how much it parallels the research I did. Will look at it in more detail later.

[saulres]

Why are you doing that?

4nxi3ty, I served with Vi, I knew Vi, Vi was a friend of mine. 4nxi3ty, you're no Vi.*

_{*disclaimer: I haven't actually played with Vi before. But I couldn't resist the quote.}

Speaking of Vi, who isn't speaking:

noun
1. a Muslim or Hindu religious ascetic or mendicant monk commonly considered a wonder-worker.
2. a member of any Islamic religious order; dervish.

You think he's a wonder-worker!

No, that can't be right. Must be some other meaning you're ascribing to it which I don't understand. Nevertheless, I believe now that what you're saying is that Ace incriminated himself with his exchange as you displayed in 257.

So, to Ace. I do find this funny:

^good posting. I don't really agree with most of it

But I'm not seeing anything solidly scum, so I have no scum-read-reason to vote for him.

Having said that: I'm going to be V/LA -- more than V/LA, completely inaccessible -- starting a little less than 48 hours before day deadline, extending to sometime during game night. This means my vote's going to be locked in around that time and unchangeable, so I want it as right as possible before then.

Or, for the day to end before then. I'm starting to think at this point that a flip of -- several players -- would be quite illuminating. So if someone whose flip I think would be revealing gets to L-1, I'll probably be willing to hammer.

[saulres]

Saulres, if you're leaving for the rest of the game day, I highly encourage a sotty vote.

I won't be leaving before Wednesday (sorry if that wasn't clear), but I've taken your thoughts (and those of others, as well as my own) into advisement.

[saulres]

Could you guys use links or something when you throw out terms like "this" and "that"? Especially you, Ace. It's challenging enough to decipher Vi, we really don't need to do it with others.

For my clarification please:

sotty, that's exactly what she (one of your heads) said

What

is exactly what

who

said?

tl;dr: We think Crab is scum but don't see how us being wrong makes it Town vs. Scum. We believe he's scum but not sure and not willing to maintain an argument with him out of fear of losing.

While shortened it may not seem that bad but something about it rubs me entirely the wrong way. I don't like it.

VOTE: sottyrulez

She was challenging Fishy's assumption via his point of view. That wasn't what she was saying at all.

What

wasn't what

who

was saying at all?

Is it just me having trouble following the conversation?

[saulres]

Confirm vote: 4nxi3ty

I highly suggest everyone else policy lynch him until he stops posting like that.

Unless Vi converted him?

[saulres]

He strikes me as just an annoying townie.

Confirm vote: 4nxi3ty

I highly suggest everyone else

policy lynch

him until he stops posting like that.

Unless Vi converted him?

I chose my words carefully

[saulres]

the fact that his vote is currently on a suggested policy lynch speaks volumes

You understand it was there before that suggestion, right?

As to the rest, I'm just trying to be honest about my unavailability and letting people know that I will not at all be available at end of day. Since I like having input I'd rather be around at end of day and indicating my willingness to help end day a couple of days early so my vote is as well-placed as it can be. Right now it looks like it could move to end the day early if I put in on sotty or ace, and I think sotty's flip would reveal a ton more than ace, so I was tempted to move it, but the way bandwagons move around here so much I'd rather not move it off my top suspect just yet. There's still a few more real days until I have to be gone.

[saulres]

*looks back at 4nxi3ty with a completely blank look as if to say "I have no idea at all what you're talking about or who the boss is but I think you having a boss means it's more likely that you're a goon and your boss is a scum leader*

It's the best I can do with whatever 4nxi3ty posted. I hate how I don't understand what people are saying in this game.

[saulres]

Vi's generally not a problem, if something's not clear and she's asked about she usually explains it.

It's in particular 4nxi3ty's lack of follow-up and explanation that's anti-town to me. It's like using a secret code and anyone who wants to do that is not, imo, helping town at all.

Plus there's all the confusion I get trying to understand "he" "she" "this" etc. when it's not clear to someone other than possibly the poster who they mean. As I've frutilessly pointed out before.

[saulres]

One more point about 4nxi3ty that I finally remembered, then when I get back on later I'll read the intervening posts.

You're

*Shouts*

doing

*says the magic words : lamp is buried:*

it

*says a tenative 'aloha' to leaky scarecrow, crowd control, fire-fuel ace, and shifty lurk*

wrong.

[saulres]

No one's moving votes?

Fine then. I think not enough people are going to be coming on my 4nxi3ty bandwagon, so time to move mine to another scumspect.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: sottyrulez

[saulres]

@Mod

: I'm going to be V/LA from sometime Wednesday until sometime probably Sunday (give or take a day).

[saulres]

Vi? 295 should be 255. Also, you missed one.

however 227 is one of the most bizarre name mess-ups I've ever seen, I'm not sure how he could mix up me and 4nxi3ty in this context when we were on opposite poles of his wagon.

In any case, what I take from this is that you think CC's slip is indicative that CC is scumbuddies with Ace. And SR and 4nxi3ty, the names intended by CC, are people the scumteam of CC and Ace were trying to get busses on 227-228.

Because I enjoy your RP, Vi, give us a show to answer? How about a card trick if yes and a rings trick if no?

[saulres]

saulres: can you summarise why you think Sotty is scum, and why you think that lynch would reveal more information?

Here's the draft I was working on last Wednesday which I reference here. Perhaps it will explain. Spoiler-condensed because it's long and I don't feel like editing it since I was planning on abandoning it.

Spoiler: saved draft sotty vs cc

As promised, I'm looking into sotty vs. CC. Here's what I find.

Vote: 4nxi3ty

Sotty starts RVS with a vote but no explanation.

In 41 CC votes me without explanation, and after Shift puts a vote on me. I don't think we're in RVS at this point.

Also dislike post 121. It's non committal to shift and potentially an associative tell contingent on one of them flipping scum.

Weak argument at best.

4nxi3ty got a lot better as he posted about Shift and about CC.

I infer from this that the RVS vote wasn't actually an RVS vote but a real one, which is bizarre given the lack of explanation earlier.

139 is where their interaction starts. Sotty says "Kill the crab, it's scum." and gives some pretty weak arguments as to why, including one which is based on previous interactions in other games with one of CC's hydra heads. Sotty votes CC here.

In 140 CC counters by using more previous interactions, this time with Vi and DDD. I question the mod Meta and CC explains that they're not using it for anything except to lean towards Vi being town.

In 147 Sotty says character setup speculation is nothing to base reads on.

Character setup speculation, now that's a great reason to think someone is town.

Then in 149 they speculate on character setup.

I'm also some what skeptical that the mod kill rules would be SO strict that you can't tell us what you can or cannot post.

Frankly, it feels to me like you guys are reaching for any reason to vote for us. You really believe the stuff you're citing or are you just trying to pressure us?

So far I'm finding myself agreeing with that.

162, CC finally votes for Sotty.

Clear as day your reasoning was not. That is why you ended up trying to describe what you were apparently trying to say in more detail. Let's not try to rewrite history here.

I think it was pretty clear. Sotty once again trying for a case where there isn't one.

At that point I realized that I kept getting what I felt as townfeel for CC and scumfeel for Sotty. I did some skimming instead of continuing the details and found nothing which made me change my mind.

I don't think there's a solid enough case on ace and the one on sotty seem stronger, so I'd rather lynch the more likely scum. If he flips town, then CC is certainly worth looking into more.

So why do I think his flip will be more informative than Ace's? Vi, sotty, and 4nxi3ty

as a group

went from voting CC to voting Ace. I feel a flip of someone in that group will be much more useful during future VCA than someone whose votes only seem to be following their own thinking instead of a sheep mentality.

[saulres]

unvote, vote: saulres

LOL. OMGUS much?

[saulres]

You're kidding right? You seriously think that that post was a "push" for a policy lynch?

I'd been voting for you for most of the game. People weren't joining. Then you started posting annoyingly, so I suggested another reason to vote for you. If you're town, you were a detriment to it then. And you still are. To wit:

Ace's post you quoted has nothing to do with you. It was written after I moved my vote off you and onto sotty. Ace's vote at the time was on sotty. Shift's policy lynch he refers to was on spring for lurking. There were actually

no votes at all for you

at the time that post written.

I don't think I've ever seen such a poorly-researched misrep.

[saulres]

You linked to my original reason, and I'm not currently voting you.

Although I'm seriously considering rectifying that error.

[saulres]

The one where I removed my vote from a player who's detrimental to town (that would be you).

[saulres]

I'm being vague? Seriously?

You're detrimental to town.

I believe you're one of the scummiest players in this game, and I also believe SR's one of the scummiest players in the game. But I can only place one vote.

I never policy lynched you, I suggested that others do.

The error was not trying to build a stronger case against you.

[saulres]

I'm not saying you're scum, because I don't know who the scum is. I have no way of knowing until someone flips or makes a clear mistake if they're scum.

I'm saying that you're anti-town.

I'm also saying that you're in the top two of my scumreads.

Why is this so hard for you to understand?

[saulres]

What difference does it make? I only get one vote. I'm trying to put it where it has the most chance of getting a lynch of my top scumspects.

[saulres]

*taps the stage microphone* Is this thing on?

@4nxi3ty: What difference does it make?

@SR: In the short term, a flip to either town or scum raises the possibilities that the others in the group are also in that alignment, possibly masons with day-talk capabilities. In the long term, several days down, VCA could be used to look for bussing, false buddying , etc.

I haven't seen any solid scumslips yet. The closest could be CC's ace/4nxi3ty slipup, and I'm still waiting on Vi to confirm my understanding of her communication.

I don't see anywhere else where a flip could potentially reveal so much, although Vi's confirmation could potentially make a case that an Ace flip would also be revealing. I hope it comes soon, because my V/LA's a little over 24 hours away and I'd really like to be contributing at end of day. (Missing the beginning of the day isn't as critical as missing the end of day imo.)

I do find it interesting that after I posted my thoughts about flipping someone in that group, Vi moved her vote and 4nxi3ty moved it elsewhere, so you're no longer all voting the same.

[saulres]

I just think that post of Ace's displays pro-town reasoning to back up my lolgut.I just don't think he's scum.

my position has switched; I would rather lynch ace over sotty.

With only one post by you between those two, the second comes out of the blue. Why the change of heart?

[saulres]

*Goes up to Vi and pulls the selective hearing earplugs from her ears*

Why do you ignore me, Vi? Gonna link again to the post I'd like you to confirm or further clarify. You don't even have to do the trick, just a simple nod if I understood correctly and a shake of the head if I didn't.

... And looking at the post I see that I didn't specifically ask you to validate. It was there when I was composing it but it must've gotten lost and I didn't notice.

[saulres]

Okay...

I give up then. Will someone who can talk please tell me what this means?:

Name mix-ups are VERY important to look at, who's the least likely to mess up a name and in what situation? HINT: Scum usually have pretty good ideas of who their scumbuddies are.

In reference to 227 and 228?

[saulres]

I'm suggesting some sort of connection between at least two of them if not all three. I lean towards SR/4nxi3ty being scum, possibly tagging onto Vi to make her look bad if one of them flips (although Vi's hooking of SR a few posts up makes it look like she's in on it at least as far as SR goes). They could all be connected town, though, too. That's one of the reasons, as I explained above, why I think flipping one of them would be very telling.

I am trying to gather more information, though, before I V/LA (a misnomer, once I'm gone I will have

no

access until I return), because I'm of course open to other scum possibilities. I just haven't seen enough anywhere else which gives me potential links, making other flips essentially random and barely informative.

[saulres]

why is everyone ignoring GNR?

Sounds like my cue to ISO! (I do so love ISOing requests.) And with 12 posts, this shouldn't take long.

First 5 posts: No content.

243: Presumes Ace and SR are scumbuddies because SR changed his vote to ace right after Vi did. So votes -- Ace? Weird.

245 and 246: Calls SR Crab by mistake and buddies up to Vi.

Wait what? How many times are people going to call other people by the wrong names in this game?

285 confirms his thought that SR is scum.

325 thinks 4nxi3ty's annoying town.

416 talks about spring and sees votes but not the reasons behind them.

Spring, I think everybody's ignoring GNR because he's not really doing anything. That's not necessarily scummy.

[saulres]

Doing nothing is neither town nor scum. I believe it's disinterest. I've seen townies post extremely few and meaningless posts and still be VT.

[saulres]

Putting a game above schoolwork? That's scum talk!

(j/k)

[saulres]

Or, rejoin the much more viable SR wagon. If you think GNR is scum, then you have to think SR's also scum from the way GNR treated him in 243.

[saulres]

@SR: The link is that GNR said "Hey Sotty! My vote isn't on Ace, but you're scum because you're bussing him! So I'm going to vote for him instead of you!" If GNR is scum that reads as "I'll support my scumbuddy who's voting for town, and tomorrow when he's not scum make up some excuse to get him off the hook.

Also I never said I think Vi is scum. I said that you and 4nxi3ty were likely scum and were following her around for some reason (a behavior, BTW, which stopped after I pointed it out).

That leaves room for a third scum who could theoretically be GNR. And your flip would help confirm/deny those suspicions as well as the other ones I noted on CC, 4nxiety, possibly Vi, and now GNR.

[saulres]

That's it. I have to go. Hoping to see a lynched scum when I can log back on!

[saulres]

First, can I say how disappointed I was in the SL lynch?

Next I'd like to say how disappointed I am that SR didn't flip scum. However, as I said, the flip should be revealing, and I look forward to reviewing the thread to look at CC more closely.

Incidentally, I'm proud that I figured something out correctly -- I called the character assignment correctly

Finally, Vi -- I'll certainly look into GNR more, but I thought he was Penn to your Teller? The claim came about after my V/LA and I did only skim those posts. You scowled at being masons, but didn't say anything about possibly being neighbors. So I don't know if you are neighbors or not (CC did but you didn't confirm or deny). So, are you? And if you are, can you communicate "backstage", either at night, during the day, or both?

[saulres]

Rope. Yes. That remind me.

Why is Vi getting a free pass for answering "Yes" to "Are you scum" in 54?

[saulres]

@Mod

: Does this vote count? It's not in "vote:" format. And I've seen Vi do it before.

*votes for Guy_Named_Riggs*

I ask because I was looking for Vi's previous vote and searched the ISO for "vote:" and was having trouble finding them. But now I know to search on "*vote".

In any case, Vi, near as I can tell, your votes before springlullaby were in the (reverse) order ace, CC, me, and Junpei. Here we are at the very beginning of D2 and you vote for GNR, with no real reason given. Are you trying to collect a whole set or something? Or is it that now that spring's been revealed as town, you're trusting her take on GNR more than your previous read on, for example, ace?

[saulres]

It was more this:

@Vi

Do you have a post restriction with you being a mime/only allowed to do emote?

(make a flower appear if yes/a carrot if no)

Does it have a time limit?

(Make a rabbit appear if yes/ a parrot if no)

Does it have a word count limit?

(make a tv appear if yes/ a radio if no)

Anything else we should know about?

(make two shoes appear if yes/ a pair of knickers if no)

Are you scum? (

a rope if yes

/ an apple if no)

*

rope

dangles down from ceiling*
*focuses on

rope

with rapt attention*
*points to

rope

as glances are given alternately to rope and audience*
*pulls on

rope

*

*pulls on

rope

harder*

*puts all body weight on

rope

*



*loosens up in despair*

*ceiling tile attached to

rope

rips off*

As to the other: Does the "1" from your finger indicate:

3) The first choice, trying to collect a whole set,
4) You can only answer one question at a time
7) Something else (and if so, what?)

I used numbers other than one so your response will hopefully be clearer.

(I act out all your mimes to see if I can understand them but sometimes I get multiple possible meanings.)

[saulres]

*grabs other end of metal bar to see what happens*

[saulres]

i believe it is scums' turn, lets see who decides to push a lynch...

i want saulres gone today so i am going to push that lynch

LOL.

So, you avoid answering ace's perfectly legit question, using as your defense that you were right about two flips (which you would be if you were scum so you know how they'd flip) and on top of that you call yourself scum.

Vote: 4nxi3ty

Also, why did you need three posts (607, 609, 611) to ask your question? You did a similar thing to me in 431 - 438. I toyed with an idea why a townie would do that but now it just seems to be another annoying playstyle by you.

[saulres]

CC is town

Why? CC has gone up on my scumdar due to sotty's flip, I just haven't had time to review his ISO.

[saulres]

Where did you get that from?

[saulres]

So. We now think that GNR is a Neighbor with Vi, and Ace neighbored Vi last night giving her two neighborhoods. Do I have that right?

Ace, why do you assume that Vi's "other" neighborhood is a neighborhood at all? Couldn't it be a scum QT and she's setting herself up through you to look town?

There's an easy way to check that, I guess.

Vote: GNR

. If he flips scum we've killed scum, if he flips town we've killed the "scum QT" theory and can start looking at why Vi's reads are so bad this game.

Further, the possibility certainly exists that Ace and Vi and GNR are all scum, and this is the story they've concocted. So Ace, tonight you need to pull someone else into your neighborhood, and they have to confirm tomorrow that they were there. Pull in someone you don't think will be NKed or the experiment is useless.

[saulres]

I agree GNR should be able to say something.

But I think Vi pretty much preemptively responded. Her responses to me in 592 and 598 seem now to have indicated that she wanted me to wait until Ace posted with the info from the neighborhood.

Except -- when Ace first posted he voted for 4nxi3ty (can't fault him for that), and he didn't "come clean" until after Vi announced her V/LA...

Yeah. UNVOTE: . Waiting on this until Vi and GNR both post in response. (Will continue to look for scum though, time permitting.)

[saulres]

I do encourage everyone to read over this past interaction between SR and myself. I think it is quite telling and needs to be looked at beyond the rhetoric spit by either side.

Just did that as well as the rest of CC's ISO. CC seems to be quite calm, I don't know why sotty was going all nuts yesterday over him. I see nothing in CC's ISO which is clearly town or clearly scum. Nulltell at this point.

Spoiler: Rant about hydras (igonre if you want, except CC)

I'm rather -- distressed -- over the breaks a hydra gets that a solo player doesn't. In particular, "Oh, part of me feels that so-and-so is scum, but my other head disagrees." If a solo player said "I think that so-and-so is scum, but he could also be town" then that player is immediately criticized for not being committal (as 4nxi3ty did to me earlier in this thread). Where's the challenge of CC for that, 4nxi3ty? Oh, that's right, you can't because it's two people not one. I can't wait for the "I didn't agree with my other head on that vote but I didn't get back to the computer in time to change it."

Given that, I'd hoped that CC would have lived up to this:

We're one head and you're not going to hear any cognitive dissonance from us

But no:

Reading our QT and VP's post in thread I completely agree with him on most everything

except

Guy_Named_Riggs (will explain in a sec).

VP suggested that he thought GNR was just bad town but

I disagree

.

The next analyses I plan to do are on those who lynched SL yesterday. Most likely there's at least one (if not more) scum on that wagon. But I want to hear from Vi and GNR about Ace's reveal, first.

[saulres]

We aren't going to just lynch GNR based on what Vi said

Unvote, Vote: Guy_Named_Riggs

Oh, I look

very

forward to seeing what Vi has to say.

[saulres]

It's not a misrep. You said you want to hear his defense, at the same time voting for him. Then you said "we aren't going to lynch" him. But you left your vote on him. If you wanted to help ensure he's not lynched until he has a chance to talk, you'd have removed your vote, as I did.

Vi, don't glare at me. What I'm saying there if we lynch GNR, and he flips town, then that'd be two lynches led by you on townies, out of two. At the moment you're batting .500, and it would drop to .333 in that situation. So it'd be something for those who follow you around to think about.

Still waiting on the other end of that metal, BTW.

[saulres]

I went back through my QT and I didn't really see anything that said a plea to post it.

???

What's unclear about:

I want you to out yourself as Penn Jilette in your next post and quote this entire post on my behalf,

?

Also, yeah, ace, why are you asking a PR to reveal themselves if there is one? And what's the ugency?

[saulres]

just trust me

That's scum talk.

You want us to trust you, give us a reason. Don't say "do what I want and then I'll explain."

[saulres]

...

And here I thought someone translating for Vi would make this thread

easier

to understand

[saulres]

Saulres: have you looked at any of GNR's past games?

I've glanced at them. Why?

[saulres]

Can Vi and GNR talk during the day?

[saulres]

There's more than just that that's wrong with it.

I'll discuss more after my question has been answered by Ace, Vi, or GNR.

[saulres]

@saulres - Yes, almost positive.

That "almost" says to me you don't know.

Vi or GNR

: Can you talk during the day?

[saulres]

On which game days did the QT posts in 698 take place?

[saulres]

On which game days did the QT posts in 698 take place?

*puzzled look*

*points to ace*
*holds up two fingers*

*points to Riggs*
*holds up one finger*
*taps hand in space between first and second finger*

Sorry I wasn't clear. I was referring to the QT links: Riggs 5, 7, 18, and 19, and your 17. All those took place on D1?

[saulres]

She did:

*gives piece of paper to ace*

We need the neighbor to be online.

[saulres]

I was responding to the second part of your post. She tried to talk through her neighbor.

[saulres]

Vi, let me get this straight.

Your story is that on D1, you knew that both you and GNR had bulletproof. When night came sottyrulez was killed. So on day 2 you talked to Ace about a theory of yours that there was a Vig or SK in the game. Do I have that right?

PEdit: agree with CC, Vi's frustrated with her post restriction too.

[saulres]

Did your bulletproof go off last night, showing that someone tried to kill you? Does bulletproof work that way?

[saulres]

The crooked smile is the "confused" emoticon. Vi's confused because you said my question (which still isn't answered by the way) earned me scum points, and then you said that the same question makes you want GNR dead. She doesn't see the connection (neither do I).

[saulres]

I don't. I don't know if the user of bulletproof knows that they were attacked. The wiki doesn't say one way or the other.

[saulres]

Saulres has played the newbie card consistently throughout this game. But sometimes he shows these glimpses of a person who really knows what is going on. I know the newb card well. I played it very often until it got to the point where it wasn't going to fly anymore. Tell me, does a newbie really ask the question "do you know if your bulletproof vest is hit or not?". I don't think they do. I think a newbie doesn't even think about that. It reads as if someone has told them the details of their role and he is trying to ask a question that makes him look "confused" if and when GNR gets lynched.

I think I've been doing a damn good job of trying my hardest

not

to play the newbie card.

Case in point, I really didn't want to ask that question, but finally I broke down and had to because it was the last piece of the puzzle I'd been working on and I didn't know the answer.

Only one kill happened last night. Instead of trying to find scum, we got Vi and ace suddenly looking for a vig. I thought, "Gee that's odd. Going for a power role solely because only one person was killed? Every townie would be assuming a scum-hit. Doing something different is a sign of additional knowledge, and who would have that knowledge? Scum, who saw a hit go through they didn't place."

Realizing that there's likely at least one scum in Vi and Ace, and with me still not having a satisfactory answer to my Vi-rope question, when Ace suddenly posted QT words from Vi, I turned all my attention to trying to see where the scum is. If you look at my ISOs from my reaction to seeing what Ace posted (in my iso 69), you'll see I remained quite focussed on solving that problem.

Now I have the whole puzzle put together, and I've put it in this spoiler because it's very tl;dr. At this point I am inclined to believe their story, but I'm putting it out here along with my problems with the story in case of future developments (and because I typed the whole thing up).

Spoiler: The Vi/Ace story

The story they're telling:
Day one: Vi and GNR have day-talk capability as neighbors. Last night Ace used a one-shot ability to gain the same ability with Vi. GNR told Vi in their QT that he has bulletproof. Vi, realizing that she had bulletproof as well, got suspicious, so asked GNR to prove himself by posting her thoughts on springlullaby. He did so.

Night one: Ace, in order to understand Vi better, uses a one-shot neighborizing ability to start a QT with her, which doesn't seem to take effect until D2 started.

Day two: Vi tells Ace that she's very suspicious of GNR, but doesn't tell him why. He posts to that effect on her behalf, possibly now knowing the reason but agreeing it shouldn't be shared (this is based on Ace seemingly knowing the reason in his immediate following post). Ace asks for vig/sk claim, and soon thereafter rescinds the request.

After some time passes, Vi and Ace decide to share Vi's entire theory, because her town reads are putting pressure on them and she thinks it's a distraction.

That's the story as they're presenting it. And it's certainly plausible.

Now, here are the problems I see with this story.

First, in this closed setup, with only partial reveal, it's

completely unprovable

. No one else can be brought into either of the QTs. No townie can test the bulletproof claims.

Second, even if a townie suspects a vig/sk, why would their reaction be, "Scum didn't make the

single

night kill, someone else did?" But it would be pefectly natural for scum's reaction to be "Hey, that's not who we targetted, and our kill didn't go through. Let's find out what's going on!"

Third, the story isn't scum-hunting. It's PR-hunting. There's nothing in there designed to pull out scum from hiding, but there's stuff in there to pull out PRs.

I'll look at non-this stuff later, this took a lot of time to do.

[saulres]

Oh but one more thing, Vi, since we now have someone who can interpret for you:

I didn't understand this:

*ushers Debonair Danny DiPietro's supervisor on stage*
*gestures with proper hand motions how to vote*
*wordlessly encourages Debonair Danny DiPietro's supervisor to practice voting*
*votes ace5993 like a boss*

What do you mean by "DDD's supervisor"?

The "like a boss" comment also seems odd seeing as how it was followed almost immediately by SR and 4nxi3ty following that lead...

[saulres]

Aw crap. I knew there was something still bugging me.

Me and Vi have agreed that putting it out in the open is the best thing to do right now, so...

Riggs 5:

Hello
what exactly is your post restriction?

Riggs 7:

Also, I know who Teller is, just not a whole lot.

Vi 17:

Oh right, don't forget - Penn Jillette speaks for both himself and Teller. I suspect that was the intent of this role set. If it becomes a good idea at some time in the future, it's certainly possible for you to claim Penn and claim me as Teller and interpret for me. I don't think that anyone will doubt it, given that the mod is fairly well-known as a P&T fan.

Riggs 18:

Ah, okay. Your post restiriction makes much more sense now.

It takes from Riggs 5 to Riggs 18 for GNR to understand the post restriction and who teller is? I don't buy it takes 12 posts to explain that. So who the hell is posting between 7 and 17?

[saulres]

saulres ignores my questions

I'll get to them. Locke's ahead of you. Neither of those are quick; I need time to review everything because I've been focused on the Vi-Act story and I do have a life outside this game.

[saulres]

^ and 4nxi3ty doesn't answer a simple question

Enough of your bullshit.

Vote: 4nxi3ty

[saulres]

Post 127 - Seems to be playing the newb card.

Wow that's pretty selective, picking out just that one question. How about the rest of it where I put an argument against 4nxi1ety?

Post 177 - Another newb card.

What? How is asking for an explanation of an image a newbie card?

Post 182 - I don't like this buddying here by Saulres especially after anxiety just talked about "fluffy interaction" It feels like he is trying to solidify a tie to us.

At tie to

you

? In what possible way could you have construed that?

Post 199 - Did he ever reread our interactions with sottyrulez?

Why yes, yes I did.

Post 288 - Another game recap. Gawd this guy!

Got it, asking to make sure I understand what's going on is a boring read for you. You can stop recapping that now.

Post 322 - asks questions about what's going on...

I'm glad it's so easy for you to understand everything.

Fluff posts

Yes, I admit, sometimes I post things which aren't designed to root out scum, but instead to interact with other players at a different level. This is quite a bit a social game, and I enjoy being social. Get over it.

Of course you would never do any of the things you accuse me of.

So what's your conclusion on me after spending two posts detailing some of my posts and completely ignoring others?

[saulres]

4nxi3ty, here are my current reads. Locke, my read on GNR comes from what you asked as well as my own analysis.

Scummy

4nxi3ty: scum
Guy_Named_Riggs: flailing newbie scum
Crab Canon (VP Baltar/Juls): High scum probability

Townish

Vi: Leaning town
Locke Lamora: Leaning town

No current opinion

Shift Luxury (Shift/Regfan)
Junpei
ace5993
Sathoris/Fishythefish
Amrun

@Mod

: I will be V/LA again starting roughly 12 hours from now and extending roughly 48 hours from then.

[saulres]

The "case" at the moment comes down to this.

It's not much, and it's not enough to put a vote on you at this time. 4nxi3ty asked me for reads and I gave them. Should a viable wagon start on you, I'd go back through your ISO and make a decision whether to join or not.

[saulres]

Oh. Whoops. Didn't remember that order. Thanks for pointing it out.

The key part is, "not enough to put a vote on you at this time". I have my vote where I believe it belongs. Even if GNR starts having a wagon on him, I'll go back and review the case.

[saulres]

i asked for both your day one and day two reads, why did you intentionally ignore that part?

I don't have a list of what my reads were yesterday. I don't keep notes like that; if I did, I wouldn't have mixed up my Crab Canon thoughts as above. If you want to look through my ISO to see what my thoughts were, feel free. I'm not going to do that for you.

I don't interpret that post by fishy that way at all. I think he is offering multiple scenarios, one of which is that he blocked anxiety from shooting player X. Another is that Vi was shot. I don't get how you think he is saying BOTH occurred.

Yes, this. It's much more probable that scum was blocked than that they happened to shoot a bulletproof player.

[saulres]

Aside from the fact that some of these aren't my stances, they're my interpretation of other people's stances -- What point are you trying to make?

[saulres]

I didn't say my interpretation of someone. I said my interpretation of

other people's

stances.

In any case, I still don't see your point. Why did you post all that?

[saulres]

I'm back, just getting up to speed. Some responses and comments on things that were posted since I left:

today, according to saul, riggs is flailing scum.

Thought I specified why. It had to do with looking at his meta, where he didn't seem to have any problem posting. In this game, where he's in neighborhood with Vi, he should have been posting

a lot

more -- at the very least, any time someone didn't understand what Vi was saying, he should have gone to their QT, gotten clarification, and then posted it. If not yesterday before Vi outed it, then today at least. Since in his other games where he's confirmed, he's town, well between that and the anti-town "not helping us understand Vi", he looks like he doesn't know what to do, and that's what I consider "flailing scum" -- someone who knows what to do as town but doesn't know what to do as scum so he does nothing.

i will only answer one question from you.

Why so anti-town, especially if you've claimed townie? Your continual anti-town behavior makes no sense.

Still discussing town reads of various strength: Shift strong town read)

Was that a typo? You're half-Shift, how can you not have a solid read on yourself?

[saulres]

Hmmm... I think one of the problems with me not posting is that I usually don't have anythiing to say.

Doesn't seem to be a problem in the other games you're playing. Ten posts over three other games today.

Post something here soon (of value, not just "hi") within 22 hours or I'm going to switch wagons no matter what the count is on you (meaning yes I'll hammer if that's where you're at).

(22 hours because I know I'll be online then.)

Oh, and for those of you interested: Penn and Teller seem to have a current series going on on the Discovery Channel: "Penn & Teller Tell a Lie". Check your local listings for time and channel.

[saulres]

I believe this is accurate. Posting this in case DDD doesn't get to it and someone who isn't keeping track gets overzealous and accidentally quickhammers. Keep in mind I will move my vote even if it hammers him if he hasn't posted content by... Let's see if I can do this...

(expired on 2011-10-10 19:00:00)

Guy_Named_Riggs (L-2) - Vi, ace5993, Crab Canon, Luxury
4nxi3ty (L-3) - Junpei, Fishythefish, saulres
saulres (L-5) - 4nxi3ty
ace5993 (L-5) - Locke Lamora
Junpei (L-5) - Amrun

Not Voting (1) - Guy_Named_Riggs

[saulres]

Bah, my countdown's wrong. Just go by the time in my prior post.

[saulres]

No one has yet commented on GNR not being Penn? And no one CCed GNR's Penn claim. Doesn't anyone at all find it suspicious that we have a Teller and no Penn? This certainly opens the possibility of Vi's post restriction not being due to Tellerness, imo. Which would open up a whole 'nother mess of confusion.

Ace, even though we're all magicians, I don't like the way you keep pulling things out of your hat. Yesterday you sprung on us a neighborizing ability, which is fine, but then limited it to 1-shot. Today out of nowhere, with no warning at all yesterday, you tell us it's one-shot. Why didn't you tell us earlier?

I too would very much like to hear from Fishy, and don't understand why Fishy would be a suspect based on no one dying last night.

[saulres]

ce did say that he was one-shot

Oh I see. I thought the one-shot meant he could only pull in one person, not that he could only pull in one person

and

only for one day.

[saulres]

Vi, now it looks like you're saying there are two kills at night, and that makes 4nxi3ty town. Why? There was one kill N1, so if there are two night kills, and Fishy blocked one, how does that make the one he blocked town?

p-edit: This is the only thing Ace said about his ability regarding one-shot:

my ability is one-shot.

[saulres]

Gotcha, Vi. You're saying last night Fishy blocked 4nxi3ty, a serial killer, again, and the scum targetted you, triggering your bulletproof, and that's why there were no kills. So 4nxi3ty should be gray again?

I really think we need to hear what Fishy has to say about it before jumping to any conclusions on people. Setup, that's fine, but putting votes on people this early is practically baseless until we know what Fishy did last night.

[saulres]

blocked somebody, a serial killer?

[saulres]

*catches the cereal box, opens it, and starts chewing on the cereal*

[saulres]

So you think there's a vig instead of a SK?

If she is, the vig isn't doing a good job

Vigilantes simply increase the death count and thus the speed of the game.

[saulres]

No, I think she's saying there are two scum factions in the game.

[saulres]

We should have kept GNR alive just so that we could interpret this shit

Except he wasn't doing that.

Vi, here are some options. Highlight/nod/whatever as appropriate. How about green for yes, red for no, gray for maybe.

1. On Night 1, scum that did not include GNR targetted you.
2. On Night 1, scum that did include GNR targetted you.
3. There is an SK in the game.
4. There is a Vig in the game.
5. Fishy has a blocking ability.
5A. Fishy blocked someone last night (if yes hold up two fingers if he blocked scum, three fingers if an SK, four if a Vig, five if other).

[saulres]

I think we should all just stop speculating on what Vi means until Fishy talks. I know that's what

I

'm going to do.

[saulres]

...

That post made no sense.

First, GNR flipped exactly what we suspected. That's why we lynched him in the first place.

Second, if if you think Vi is a "bp sk", why did you vote Junpei, who you didn't even mention in that post?

[saulres]

VOTE: Anxiety

Also,

I'm partially claiming

. I roleblocked

Anxiety

last night. Given two BPs and the SR kill, I'm strongly suspecting scum missed their kill last night - I doubt we only have one kill, and I doubt the scum would shoot SR. Me blocking Anxiety isn't the only explanation for a missed kill - Vi being shot at by

a scumteam not including GNR

is the other obvious one - but it's certainly one explanation, and that makes him more likely scum.

It also makes him a much better lynch than GNR. Because if GNR is scum, then scum wouldn't shoot at Vi (or indeed GNR)

, and so we need another explanation for a missed kill.

*sees wagon rolling toward me*
*catches wagon*
*pushes wagon in direction other than its original direction*

fishy sees wagon gaining momentum so he pushes it towards me.

*lurks*

*nods*

fishy has been lurking since than.

this is only my interpretation so it would be nice if vi could confirm.

*shakes hand briefly*
*nods*

Oh! Vi, I think this is where the confusion stems in trying to read you. For me, at least, I've seen on other forums anything between *'s indicating actions, to be indicating actions the

poster

is taking. Your confirmation of 4nxi3ty's reads here mean that your uses of *'s after quotes is to indicate what the person you're

quoting

was doing. That's a major disconnect in our interpretations, so if that's the case I think I'm going to have to go back and reread everything you posted, and it's going to be a lot easier to understand you going forward.

I blocked saulres last night, because I thought he might be scum.

Then why didn't you vote for me when no kills happened?

[saulres]

What, that she's a convicted criminal and pretend magician? Flavor seems to fit right in with the flip.

[saulres]

Okay. I've been debating when to do this for quite some time now. The latest round of conversations, especially with the death of bulletproof scum, has me thinking that now's the right time, so we can turn our attention to scumhunting instead of setup speculation. I think I'm not going to get anything more useful out of anybody at this point.

With only 1 kill out of 4 chances, I don't think there's a SK. I think we have (possibly impotent?) scum, and we have a town vig. Me.

In both those finished ones I was

town.

Vi -- g

reat job!

I killed Sotty on N1 because I thought he was scum.

I

nstead of trying to find scum, we got

V

i and ace suddenly looking for a vig.

I

thought, "

G

ee that's odd.

G

oing for a power role solely because only one person was killed?

E

very townie would be assuming a scum-hit.

D

oing something different is a sign of additional knowledge, and who would have that knowledge?

S

cum, who saw a hit go through they didn't place."

R

ealizing that there's

Last night my kill didn't go through, and so I was expecting Fishy to say he blocked me, and he did.

I didn't want to come out before for a couple of reasons.

One, I was trying to look for scumslips when they realized their N1 kill didn't go through but someone died anyway. I was looking for someone saying something like "That's an odd choice" or anything else which would tip off that they were scum who didn't see their kill go through. The closest I got was Vi and Ace looking for a non-scum killer, and that's why I was pushing them so hard for information yesterday. I put together what I thought was a decent argument against them and targetted Ace last night, in the spoiler I'll show that argument because it still may be valid, and for full exposure.

Two, I'm Siegfried Fischbacher, of Siegfried and Roy. My role PM suggests that I don't have full control over my tiger and so I was thinking that Roy is out there and scum, and so I was hoping to get a tell to that effect, such as a tiger attack I didn't order. But I don't think that's the case any more: 1)The tiger did what I asked it to on N1, 2) The tiger did nothing last night and there's a block claim on me, and 3) We have a Teller without a Penn, so I'm thinking Roy's still injured and not in the game after all.

Note that I'm not saying the block clears Fishy, though. There's some good chances he's a scum-roleblocker.

Anyway, here's my thinking for last night's attack on Ace.

Spoiler: My Night 2 Montecore attack

VI in 642 says she "is V/LA today". She makes no more posts onsite for over 10 hours.

During those 10 hours, Ace posts 645 where he reveals what VI wrote. Included in this is this line from Vi: "There is actually one big thing in the QT that sets off alarms, aside from his continued ignorance of my constant pleas for him to say something, anything that looks like scumhunting. With that said, I'd like to keep that to myself for right now." This is his first site-wide post of the day, so it's reasonable to assume he got caught up on their QT while Vi was out, and that Vi didn't tell Ace what she was thinking.

HOWEVER, at ace's following posts in the game thread, it becomes clear that he

does

know what the objection is. Although he doesn't claim that he does until after he's looked for a PR, which comes chronologically after Vi returns to the site. And his terminology -- "

Now

that Vi has told me the whole story..." It doesn't add up. That's a slip.


Further evidence against Ace:

In 249 he gives tons of extensive reads, and ends with his analysis of now-confirmed scum GNR by saying, basically, "I have a headache so I don't want to try to read him."

And in 350, which happened on Day 1 before he said he was in a neighborhood with Vi, he said "I can generally translate Vi if we need someone to do that." I read that now as "I'm in a QT with Vi so can translate if needed."

Combine all this with the whole Vi story about GNR coming out only after the scum saw a kill they didn't order, and I'm 95% sure Ace and Vi are scum. Vi's claim of bulletproof might be to force us to lynch her during the day, and I'm okay with that.

Send the tiger after Ace.

This thinking may still be legit, but it was put to pause because Ace no longer claims the ability to speak with Vi. I would have thought they'd want to continue that charade for the rest of the game now that they outed GNR.

[saulres]

unvote, vote:salures

incentive

Incentive for what? To answer your questions? I'd answer them anyway, I do that all the time.

your tiger rips out people's hearts?

Apparently. Came as a surprise to me, but I guess that was to distinguish it from scum kills. And it makes flavor sense.

also, why did you crumb like 10 pages after the start of the day?

Are you referring to my 2nd crumb, the one where I announced who I killed N1? It took quite a bit of work to twist my words to be able to do that and not be obvious. I needed a post where I had a lot to say and that I could reword sufficiently to get across what I wanted to without tipping off that I had crumbed. I had been trying with a couple of earlier posts but gave up on them when I couldn't complete the crumb and wanted to go on with the post. I saw no reason to rush.

[saulres]

Newbie card here: There are timeframes on result breadcrumbs? The wiki doesn't mention that. It talks about crumbing the claim early, which I did. And Amrun will vouch from Pick Your Poison that I didn't even know about breadcrumbing your results when I was a doc in that game. It was her questioning it that made me look at the wiki article again and see "actions" and "results" which I had missed the first time. And I had the first crumb long ago. (I thought I had more "vi -- g"'s as well throughout D1 but couldn't find them again.)

I don't see how you can come to the conclusion that I made it up on the fly.

[saulres]

tl;dr: Recap of my claim post, worded differently for Crab Canon.

I thought I explained my reason for claiming today, but I'll try to spell it out again. Enough things came together (no night kills, me being blocked, me no longer needing from bulletproof scum because we lynched him yesterday, determining that Roy is probably not in the game, etc.) that I thought it was better for town to know what's going on with the 2nd killer (or 1st, really, as scum hasn't killed anything at all yet) and stop spending pages trying to figure it out instead of looking for real scum.

The Vi/Ace "hate" (your word, not mine) came from them being the only ones to look for a second killer on D2. Any normal townie would have assumed SR was the scum hit, only scum would know it wasn't and try to figure out why. They're the ones who came up with the "I'm bulletproof too!" story and so assumed a second killer before anybody had flipped scum. I believe that normal town Vi would've thought that GNR was town, not scum, when she found out he was bulletproof. So either she's bulletproof too as she claims,

or

she's scum making up a reason to look for the second killer. If she's scum, Ace may or may not have been in on it, so I'd been looking for any clues they may have let slip on D1 that they had their QT then. That's when I looked at the timing of their "reveals", and also found that tell from Ace earlier in the game that he "could translate for Vi if needed" which I read on D2 as "I've had my QT with Vi all along". But then I lost that read today when he said he didn't have it any more.

[saulres]

Junpei, I've given proof that I'm the vig based on the crumbs I left. Your post which came afterwards has no information indicating the same with you, and could easily have been created after you read mine to try to make yourself look more town. So, prove it to me. Without quoting your role PM (which is against the rules), give me the initials of the first four words of your Vig ability, in the order they appear. I will verify if they match mine or not, and give the results here. You can ask me a similar question.

But before you do that,

@MOD

: Is this plan okay? I think it would count as a paraphrase.

16.) Do not quote anything from the moderator that is said outside of this thread (including role PMs) or pretend to quote anything from the moderator. Paraphrasing is allowed but if you are questioning your paraphrase, run it by the moderator first.

[saulres]

I think any mass claim should include the character name, and it should start with Fishy.

[saulres]

Thank you very much for that clarification, and when you put it that way I see it very well. I'll look for another way to confirm/deny (besides lynching )

[saulres]

On further review of 1042 I find myself agreeing that Junpei is Roy.

This does not, however, mean he's town. The possibility exists of him being scum, and exactly what I was worried about as indicated in 1022.

This does open up some interesting possibilities on how Montecore works, though, and I think it's reasonable to assume this:

1) If both of us agree on the target, the kill goes through.
2) If we don't agree on the target, the kill does not go through.
3) If one of us is blocked, the other kill goes through.

If 2 and 3 are accurate, then Fishy's claim about blocking me is a lie, or he in turn was blocked. If they're not accurate, though, it doesn't prove anything. Yech, what a mess of WIFOM

4nxi3ty's the only other one Fishy claims to have blocked, so it would be interesting to see what he claims if we go through with a mass claim.

[saulres]

Penn and Teller (famous duo) has 1 scum 1 town

Oh, and Junpei? GNR wasn't Penn.

[saulres]

do you also claim to control this Montecore

Oh yes. Somewhat. Was that not clear?

I think we're going to need to coordinate our attacks for them to work. The hit on SottyRulez seems to make sense because you did put a vote there D1, and it's only by a twist of thought that I don't want to get into right now that I didn't target 4nxi3ty with it last night. How we're going to communicate to agree on a kill without telling the scum is beyond me. Should we put it to a vote of the other players? That could be just as telling as lynch votes.

[saulres]

And you know what? I don't think the setup would allow for one of us to be killed early on and leave the tiger useless. I'm betting on if only one of our orders goes through, then the tiger follows them. And if that's true, Fishy's lying about blocking.

Fishy

: I'm going to put you at L-1 in roughly 12 hours. I suggest you full-claim as soon as you get a chance. Especially the name.

[saulres]

I advise against name-claiming, and I will not be doing so. Scum have fake nameclaims anyway, as evidenced by GNR.

That's exactly why I want them. Think about it.

[saulres]

Junpei, I do think that Fish's flip should determine whether we hit 4nxi3ty or not. If Fishy flips town I'm all for it. If he flips scum, though, that I'm not too clear about yet. And at the moment, I actually have a bit of a townread on 4nxi3ty for reasons I don't want to go into. Hopefully we'll have time to discuss.

Luxury, other than PoE, do you have any reasons for suspecting Amrun or Snake? Near as I recall (but I do have the memory of a goldfish) neither of them came under any real suspicion for anything yet.

[saulres]

my copping is a day ability Locke did Anxiety and got the line on the vote.

I don't follow this. Locke's RVS vote was on 4nxi3ty, and then he moved it to Shift, Ace, and then SL for the lynch. Next day he put it on Ace and it stayed there the rest of the time he was in the game. So what line, exactly, did he get on 4nxi3ty?

[saulres]

saulres explain in-depth why you chose to kill sottyrulez; also who you submitted a kill on night two and why.

Why do you keep asking me for stuff I've already posted? Don't you have real scum to hunt?

Why I thought sotty was scum.

N2 kill PM to DDD(in the spoiler).

But, here's a bit more on N1 that I haven't posted yet: Keep in mind I went V/LA before the day ended and was gone for almost the entire night. At the time I left the wagon on SL hadn't really started yet; Ace and SR were tied at L-3.

Spoiler: N1 Tiger attack PM before I went V/LA

Unless something changes between now and when I'm gone, please use the following to determine who I want to set the tiger on:

1) If sottyrulez is not lynched, then sottyrulez.
2) If sottyrulez is lynched, then Guy_Named_Riggs

My thoughts, in case you're curious and so I have them for endgame

Originally I was going to set it on 4nxi3ty, but after he pressured me to commit to a "highest scum" read I think he might be a Lie Detector or something similar. I don't want to post that in the thread (don't want them to think I'm PR-hunting scum) and I'm willing to give him another chance. Besides, he already has a statement of mine he can check in the first line of 435, I just think he didn't realize it at the time.

SR still reads scum to me so if the town doesn't take him out, I want to. GNR's "SR is scum because he's bussing Ace so I'm going to vote Ace" just strikes me as wrong. If I were going to be around more today I'd put pressure on GNR but with my limited time it'll just look scummy ("Oh, yes, after further thought GNR is scum, I'm going to vote for him now and leave that vote on him all day." Blech.)

Vi's playing Teller very well, and I'm starting to think 4nxi3ty might be Penn, and they're masons with potentially daytalk.

I don't know who my partner Roy is, but I don't want to advertise that I'm Sigfried because if Roy's scum, he may also have some say over the tiger and want to remove me so he has full control, which would be too dangerous. I hope I can figure a way to determine whether Roy's town or scum, but I can't figure how to do that until I figure out who he

is

!

[saulres]

*smacks forehead*

The claiming -- we did it wrong.

First we should have claimed abilities. Then, we should have claimed names, starting with those who claimed VT.

Once we get the ability/VT claims from CC, we need name claims from everyone who hasn't given them yet.

[saulres]

No. I'm tired of your single-minded tunneling on me, and your constantly asking me to repost things I've already posted. What it looks like to me is that you're scum, desperately trying to bring the thread somewhere other than scum-hunting.

So.

I completely believe Snake is a cop as he describes. I had pegged Locke as a cop a long time ago.

A

c

ombination

o

f

p

oor motivation and a lack of free time.

A Flavor cop makes sense in this game. Working with the theory that the character name is an alignment tell, he got part of a name on Amrun, but nothing except a generic piece which everyone has on you. Plus, Fishy claims to have blocked you night 1 and there was no scum kill that night. I'm convinced.

Vote: 4nxi3ty

[saulres]

What I'm convinced about is that your play is anti-town, or at best, if not intentional, useless-to-town. And now you've got me so worked up I voted on emotion instead of on logic. I'm going to fix that mistake now.

Unvote

I want to see the other claims before I vote anybody.

[saulres]

I've calmed down.

@4nxi3ty: I have lost a game before on the last day because I took the tone of a player's posts as indicative of his alignment, and it wasn't. I unvoted because I don't want to do that again. My vote for you was another knee-jerk reaction to your constant badgering me for information I have already provided, and was so more based on, I guess, a policy lynch, than an actual "I think you're scum" reason.

On to scumhunting.

Now that CC's claimed VT, can we please get name claims from the following people. If you refuse to post a name I will take it as a sign that you are scum, because I see no reason whatsoever, based on the evidence we have, that any townie would have a reason to hide their name. I want to see them in this order for a reason.

Fishy
Ace
Amrun
CC

[saulres]

Whoops, missed Luxury. This order please.

Fishy
Ace
Amrun
Luxury
CC

pedit: Yes, saw that And I'm done bickering with 4nxi3ty

[saulres]

rolecop is in and of itself a scummy ability.

Rolecop may be.

Flavor Cop is not.

[saulres]

He claimed flavor results. Not role results.

pedit: And I wish you would have waited your turn There's a reason I put the names in the order I did.

[saulres]

He may not have wiki'd the flavor cop and not realized the difference.

But he did claim flavor results, not role results.

Day 1 Locke used the ability on 4nxi3ty and

got the "Voter: Each day you may submit your vote..." line

from the PM

Day 2 I missed out because I didn't read the part about Day investigation and I left it too late.

Day 3

Amrun - You Are amazing.

In my role Pm because I am the Amazing Randi my passive ability reads You are Amazing.

I got this result from Amrun,

so I am assuming his character is The Amazing someone or rather..?

Don't argue this with me, I think you're town and I'm attempting to capture scum and prove a point.

[saulres]

Vi didn't explicitly state this but I believe his theory is that sotty was vigged and scum with GNR shot him, hence only one kill.

Can you explain this a little further?


At this point, GNR seems like a fairly solid wagon.

I'd still be happy to see Junpei strung up, though I'm having trouble determining if his theory is something he believes in SO STRONGLY that it could conceivably come from town. It seems more like a crutch to not contribute anything useful, to me.

[saulres]

???

Stupid Q+

I went to post "The order is necessary, from where I stand" and got that.

[saulres]

It still has the possibility of catching scum, even though Amrun went out of turn. She in particular might have royally screwed it up, but I still especially want to see Fishy first, and Ace second. You and Luxury can switch up once we get to that.

[saulres]

so we can hurry this along and get back to scumhunting.

You can get back to scumhunting. I just want the name claims, in that order, but that doesn't necessitate putting the rest of the game on hold.

[saulres]

I mean, where did you pick those words out from?

It's his third post. I was ISOing him when Snake replaced in, trying to get a read, and noticed that post was worded kind of funny as a response to "Why are you so inactive". "Lack of" motivation I get, "poor motivation", not so much.

I told DDD I thought that he's a cop on Monday, he can confirm I did that when the game's over.

[saulres]

Whoops, missed Luxury. This order please.

Fishy
Ace
Amrun
Luxury
CC

...

How in the world did I miss Fishy's claim?

Ace: You're up. Who are you?

[saulres]

Luxury, your turn. Who are you?

[saulres]

It is what it is.

Vi: You quote from this thread quite often without breaking your post restriction. Are you allowed to quote your private QTs in this thread as well?

[saulres]

That's -- not very conclusive.

What I'd like to know, however you can indicate it, is when in your QT with GNR he claimed to be Penn Jillette, before or after you claimed Teller, how long before/after (post numbers), etc.

[saulres]

I advise against name-claiming, and I will not be doing so.

Ace, why were you

so

anti-name claiming? I understand "I don't see a point to it" but I don't understand "It's a bad idea."

[saulres]

If we lynch Fish, and barring anything big coming from roleclaims, I would much like to shoot Anxiety in case you don't know that.

Junpei, unless I missed something, Fishy's at L-2. If he's hammered before we can coordinate I want you to know that if Fishy flips scum, then I don't think we should attack 4nxi3ty, but I don't have another target set quite yet. I expect to be able to post full reads on Monday or when Ace answers my question, whichever comes later.

[saulres]

...

You don't think the scum have kills?

Can you point me to a game where the scum don't get to kill anybody? I mean, isn't that what makes them scum in the first place?

[saulres]

Vi, you could etntertain yourself by letting me know at which post in your QT with GNR he claimed Penn...

pEdit: I'm going to put a vote and a planned vig sometime tomorrow if all goes right. I need time, because 1) it's the weekend and 2) the entire paradigm just shifted with the thought that scum can't kill, so I have to rethink almost everything.

[saulres]

*impatiently points to post 1155*

That's one of mine, and doesn't answer the question

[saulres]

*puts on the glasses and looks again at his own post, completely failing to see Vi's answer in the post that he made and Vi didn't.*

I'll try again. Which post in your QT with GNR did he claim to be Penn? I'm going to hazard a guess that there aren't over 1000 posts in that QT...

[saulres]

At this point I'm not going to be vigging Amrun until I can review the thread (tomorrow as I've said) so if anyone hammers before Junpei and I agree on a vig, I'm going to consider the hammerer scum.

[saulres]

...

I am apparently a tad dyslexic tonight. Sorry about that. I was looking at 1115.

And while Vi may claim it's a dead lead, I don't feel it is. I asked for a reason, and just because Vi doesn't understand that reason doesn't mean it's not valid. If DDD won't let her tell me, that's one thing, but I can't understand why it would have been permissible for Ace to post direct quotes of her talking normally but not for her to indicate a number and nothing more.

[saulres]

*nods*
*points to Debonair Danny DiPietro

again

*

Ah. I think I finally understand.

When DDD set up the QT, he indicated in his intro posts that that was a QT for Penn and Teller.

[saulres]

Snake are you reading the game or just jumping in to hammer?

At this point I'm not going to be vigging Amrun until I can review the thread (tomorrow as I've said) so if anyone hammers before Junpei and I agree on a vig, I'm going to consider the hammerer scum.

Junpei, if Fishy flips scum you're still vigging Amrun? I haven't had time to review the case on her.

[saulres]

I had reviewed Amrun's ISO after that first post and I found myself thinking basically what she says in 1135: She was criticizing Vi's theory and not GNR. But I'll look again in detail at night. I'm also going to look at Snake's meta; he's come into this game twice just to hammer, making them both essentially quickhammers, so I want to see if there's a history to what he's doing.

[saulres]

...

Junpei, who did you target?

And Dammit, Snake! Why are you hammering without reading the thread? I was going to do my full analyses on Monday, and we might have lynched scum instead of a useful PR.

Fos: Snake

Since I'm still alive I'll do my full analyses today and tomorrow (I had time Monday, not as much today).

[saulres]

We need to agree on who to investigate during the day. Although if our quick-hammering Snake is scum the results would just be misleading.

And no, CC, I absolutely did

not

send the tiger after Vi.

[saulres]

what happened there exactly? Why is Vi dead with the same flavor as Sotty?

I have a theory, but I'm waiting on Junpei to say who he targeted.

[saulres]

@Junpei: We only planned to target Amrun if Fishy flipped scum. If he flipped town we were going to hit 4nxi3ty who Fishy says he blocked N1 when there were no non-vig kills. So that's who I went after, and who I believe everyone went after. How you missed that I have no idea.

So I have no idea now how the tiger works.

pEdit: Fishy already said he blocked 4nxi3ty on N1 and me on N2. And yes, 4nxi3ty was already rolecopped. Neither head of Luxury is reading the game?

Here's what I think happened:
N1 4nxiety shot Vi to remove the bulletproof (remember, Vi speculated that GNR knew about the bulletproof from her lack of response to him so probably told the rest of them that night) but was blocked.

N2 scum (probably not 4nxi3ty) shot Vi to remove the bulletproof.

N3 scum redirected the tiger from 4nxi3ty to Vi, and shot Ace.

[saulres]

EBWOP:

who I believe everyone went after.

That should read "who I believe everyone thought we went after".

[saulres]

Saulres, I wasn't under that implication at all. Also

You should have been.

If we lynch Fish, and barring anything big coming from roleclaims,

I would much like to shoot Anxiety

in case you don't know that.

Junpei, unless I missed something, Fishy's at L-2. If he's hammered before we can coordinate I want you to know that

if

Fishy flips scum, then I don't think we should attack 4nxi3ty, but I don't have another target set quite yet.

Saulres, I got that we aren't killing Anxiety

if/when

Fishy flips scum. As for who would be my second choice, I'm not sure yet to be honest, but I have to think either Amrun or Snake.

[saulres]

Well I'm confused all around now. I don't get this tiger thing at all. Do you two have to agree on a target for it to work? As in you both have to submit your choices to tripleD?

Assuming Junpei got the same instructions I did, we each have to PM DDD with who we want to send it after.

How conflicts, or one person being blocked, resolves, is completely unclear.

N1: I targeted SR, Junpei says he targeted SR, and the tiger killed SR.
N2: I targeted Ace and was blocked, Junpei says he targeted 4nxi3ty, and the tiger killed nobody.
N3: I targeted 4nxi3ty, Junpei says he targeted Amrun, and the tiger killed Vi.

If anyone can explain this (somehow, I think Vi could) that would be great.

@4nxi3ty: Being blocked on N1 when scum didn't kill anyone puts you high in the running for scum.

BTW, I'm not necessarily convinced scum have a kill. They may just have a redirector and there is an SK (because would bulletproof really protect you from a tiger? And there does seem to be a gun in the game).

[saulres]

Vi speculated m--

Wait, who said anything about "mafia"? We don't know who the scum is. Scumslip?

What if the tiger's split between town and scum...

In any case, Vi speculated scum have no kill, and yes, that still leaves 4nxi3ty as a possible SK. That theory flies through N1 and N3, but is a little weak on N2 -- where would the SK kill have gone that night? Intentionally held? Odd night hits only?

[saulres]

If you're saying scum would have hit Vi on N1 -- what did they do on N2?

[saulres]

In my opinion we don't have all that many days left. For all we know we're in MyLo right now. So I think any investigation should target someone who claimed VT, as that's the most likely location for scum. If my notes are right, that would be 4nxi3ty (already checked once), Amrun (already checked once), Luxury and Crab Canon.

Also it's looking like I'm not going to have time to do full reads until next week at the earliest, which sucks. So I'm going to have to focus on targeted things. Like VCA.

I have to think there was more than one scum in on SL's lynch.

springlullaby

– Shift,

Vi

,

Guy_Named_Riggs

,

Fishythefish

, Amrun,

sottyrulez

, Locke Lamora

Snake's obviously not going to target himself, so if he wants to hit someone from there who hasn't been hit yet, Shift/Luxury is the only choice.

Here's the full VCA list for easy bookmarking.

springlullaby

– Shift,

Vi

,

Guy_Named_Riggs

,

Fishythefish

, Amrun,

sottyrulez

, Locke Lamora

sottyrulez

(L-4) - saulres, Junpei,

ace5993

ace5993

(L-5) - Crab Canon, 4nxi3ty
Shift (L-6) –

springlullaby

Guy_Named_Riggs

–

Vi

,

ace5993

, Crab Canon, Luxury, SnakePlissken,

Guy_Named_Riggs

4nxi3ty (L-3) - Junpei,

Fishythefish

, saulres
saulres (L-5) - 4nxi3ty
Junpei (L-5) - Amrun

Fishythefish

-

Vi

, Amrun, Junpei, Luxury, Crab Canon, SnakePlissken

saulres

(L-5) - 4nxi3ty
Not Voting (3) -

ace5993

,

Fishythefish

, saulres

[saulres]

I think the setup speculation is getting a bit rampant here and probably not going to be that helpful. Clearly there is some weirdness happening with the night kills that we aren't going to be able to piece together.

As to this, since if there's an SK we've probably already lost, I agree we should just focus on finding scum. However, speculation on how the tiger works is important, because it's one of our best shots to kill more scum, if we can learn how to properly control it.

[saulres]

Don't leave quite yet. You'll note I'm not voting for you. I have yet another bizarre theory, which may not be so bizarre, and I'm leaning on you being town from it (and from other things). I just need to do some ISOs tomorrow before I present it.

Or if you do want to leave, then ask for a replacement. Don't lynch yourself if you're town and potentially lose the game for us.

[saulres]

Snake, in your role PM, does your Amazing ability come before or after your Voter one?

I'm wondering if the results come in downward order, in which case that would clear 4nxi3ty and possibly Amrun, and would be extremely useful on Luxury or CC.

[saulres]

It was my impression that his investigation returns a random role ability. Why do you think it's in order?

I don't think it is (that's why I asked). I hope it is. Giving a random result puts a little too much dice into the ability for my liking, making it almost useless; everyone has a chance of returning (V) Voter and the role could spend all game getting nothing at all useful (especially if the random result is generated every time, meaning you could spend all game getting the same result from the same person).

I'm sure if Vi were still alive she could link me to examples of games where rolecops get only one role at a time (the wiki doesn't say anything about characters with multiple roles). I haven't had any luck looking for examples on my own.

[saulres]

I can get the

random

result of one of a persons roles

Hm that may be why you thought it was random. I find Snake's posts hard to read and it's not the first time I've missed (or misunderstood) something from him.

He doesn't like setup speculation without facts

Not sure what you mean by "without facts". I find it impossible to look at the lack of kills on nights 1 and 2 without speculating about the setup.

[saulres]

I'm not sure Junpei is town. I'm sure that he's Roy, because his description of his ability is too similar to mine and I didn't feed that info when I described it, so I don't think he's faking it. The only reason I lean town on him at the moment is because I'm having more trouble figuring out how the tiger works if he's scum than I am if he's town.

Spoiler: Insane theory showing how my mind works

Of course if he and Snake are both scum, and Snake got a read on me on day 2 (because really, how could anyone

not

use that ability before putting someone at L-1), Snake could have fed the info to Junpei so Junpei appears town. But I'm not seriously suggesting this which is why I hid it in a spoiler.

In any case I agree, Snake should pick someone and get a result on the sooner side. He's not one of the more active posters and we'll have to wait for him to post whatever response he gets from DDD, so the less waiting at this point, the better.

[saulres]

I didn't mean it as a criticism, just an observation. No offense intended.

[saulres]

Well, that's either very helpful or completely random and unhelpful. No way to know I think.

Off to the VCA. Stay tuned.

[saulres]

Snake, what's the flavor of your cop ability?

Meanwhile, while looking at the VCA I got distracted. I'm going to try something.

4nxi3ty says he walked away from this game but didn't request replacement. He's been actively posting in other games but it seems he's given up on this one and asked us to lynch him. If that's his town play then I think that's sufficient grounds for sanctions against him for not playing to his win condition. I think the threat of sanctions is generally a strong enough incentive for town to request replacement rather than shit on the game, so I have to assume his play is a scum AtE.

vote: 4nxi3ty

[saulres]

Unvote

[saulres]

My gambit worked. Sorry for pissing you off, 4nxi3ty, but I needed to have a rationale.

When I was doing my VCA, I ran into this.

Okay, it's obvious no one will lynch Junpei with me today.

VOTE: springlullaby

A lurker lynch is lame, but I don't like EITHER the sottyrulez or ace wagons.

This post struck me as odd. She moved her vote to a wagon she didn't like just because there was a wagon there?

So I ISOed her (again). Almost all through Day 1, she was moving her vote onto the biggest wagon. Or to use her own terminology, the most "viable" one.

Then on Day 2, the most viable lynch for a good chunk of the latter part of the day was GNR. But Amrun did not join this wagon.

Finally on Day 3, she gets an early vote in on fishy, before the claims start happening. No wagon to jump to because she was on it when it started.

But what I'm seeing is a pattern of jumping on town lynches and staying far away from scum lynches. Who'd want to do something like that? Scum.

Vote: Amrun

[saulres]

Links to games where your scumgame is "beyond that basic level"?

Did you know your vote put 4nix3ty at L-1?

I suspected anxiety before you ever voted for him

That's not true. I voted for him in 127, but the first time you referenced him at all was in 137.

While I'm here: @4nxi3ty -- to further clarify, I did not mean what I wrote as a serious attack. I PMed DDD that I didn't want any action taken on that accusation (he can confirm after game end). I would still like to see you playing the game actively or replacing out, but I'm not going to place a vote based solely on you permalurking.

[saulres]

In my continuing quest to find the true scum, I stumbled across this.

does a newbie really ask the question "do you know if your bulletproof vest is hit or not?".

That's not what I asked. I asked if bulletproof worked that worked that way. The key point of my current confusion is that nowhere did anyone say they had bulletproof vests. They said they were bulletproof, but they didn't say they had vests.

Luxury uses the same term

Since Riggs had a BP vest

But that came after CC's use of it. Is this going to be another case of "I use scum, mafia, and coven interchangeably"? Or is there something more to it? There are only 186 posts on this site which use the combination, but 2892 which use simply "bulletproof". The wiki also indicates that the vest is a variant. So it doesn't seem as likely to be a "normal" work mixup like scum/mafia would be. And with SR's flip and the argument with CC on day 1...

My logic has said CC's town, but my gut's been telling me otherwise for a while. This could be a solid scumslip, and I'm going to have to do an in-depth review of CC in this game. IGMEOY, CC.

[saulres]

Unvote

Although I don't think we're in MyLo (I'm leaning to believing there are only 2 remaining, not 3. Riggs says in 285 "I don't know who the third scum is" and I don't think that was an intentional red herring), I don't want to risk a quickhammer mislynch while I'm sleeping.

[saulres]

There's not really "so much unexplained stuff". N1 is explained, N2 is explained. It's only N3 that isn't explained.

Doesn't mean Junpei's not scum, I just want to clarify what seems to be a misperception.

Amrun:

I wagon hop to see what shakes out - always, especally early game. Wagons are super informative.

After CC and Vi voted, Junpei very clearly fabricated reasons to suspect saulres. It read to me as looking for an excuse to get on the biggest wagon <snip>

VOTE: Junpei

In the first quote you defend yourself as town by claiming your wagon hopping is a town strategy.

In the second you vote Junpei for doing the exact same thing.

Reconcile please?

[saulres]

1) Why is Anxiety voting Crab Canon, I don't understand?

GNR was newbie scum. The two quotes 4nxi3ty have show GNR claiming (from 4nxi3ty-being-town-POV) that confirmed town were scum but CC wasn't.

I've also noted this:

Can someone explain this bandwagon on Junpei to me? I'm a little confused on it.

That feels like the same false confusion he used in this:

I'm kinda confused on this. Do we know how many mafia members there? I didn't see it in the opening post?

So GNR-CC-Junpei scum team?

I'm rereading the entire thread now, slowly, and have found some other things, but want to get all my thoughts together (or enough tells found) before I place another vote.

[saulres]

I'm rereading the entire thread now, slowly, and have found some other things, but want to get all my thoughts together (or enough tells found) before I place another vote.

And yes, I'm not going to base my votes now exclusively on what GNR said.

[saulres]

lie #4:

D1, Baltar thought he was mostly noob town and Juls thought he was scum.

the thing you're missing there is that Juls was wary of the GNR lynch. She had the stronger feelings of his towniness on D1. I (VP) thought he was scum and placed that initial vote.

GREAT catch, 4nxi3ty! That's the kind of scumslip I like to see, when they know enough about their story to remember the gist, but get a key detail wrong.

Vote: CC

[saulres]

You won't have to worry about playing with me again after this game ends. It's going to be my last one. But I'm going to make my best effort to win this.

And I could say the same about never wanting to play with hydras again (I have already). You're posting now things that happened in your QT which we have no access to. So all we can go on is what's posted in this thread.

Late D1 - VP is persuaded by the arguments Juls makes against GNR and agrees with her he is scummy. Juls has a change of heart and begins to think he's town. VP leaves to drive 3000 miles, juls takes over the hydra alone.

Here's Juls' take on it:

Second, I expressed suspicion of GNR yesterday. He is in my top 3 as I have stated very clearly. However, I was backing off of it a little bit given some of my suspicion of him was tied to Sotty. With Sotty being dead-town, it reduced some of the suspicion of him. I guess VP was convinced by my arguments in the QT

There she indicates she had GNR as scum

until

SR flipped. The last thing she said about GNR before Day 2 ended was this:

GNR, while I do feel is scummy, I want to discuss him more with my other half when he returns.

When you returned this is what you posted:

I'm back suckas.

Vote: GNR

Juls had somewhat convinced me of her thoughts on him from what she left me in our QT

So the following statement is not backed up

at all

in this thread:

She had the stronger feelings of his towniness on D1

[saulres]

EBWOP:

The last thing she said about GNR before Day 2 ended was this:

That should read "before Day 1 ended"

[saulres]

The only "lie" I see is 4nxi3ty's #4. I'm not convinced on any of the others (but I haven't researched them yet). #5, though, is not how 4nxi3ty presents it. VP thinking GNR was clueless town early D1 was posted in this thread, and so is not indicative of vp and juls "talking about gnr early d1"

This is VP:

I get a clueless town vibe from Riggs honestly. Seems like a distraction more than anything.

[saulres]

Scum slips have no motivation, the idea is that you aren't really scumhunting, just faking it, and thus forgot.

Yes, this is how I caught 2 out of 3 scum in the only game I've won. That's why I was so anxious to jump on it again.

But, we have 11 days, and I'm not sure who to send the tiger after yet. I don't think we're at MyLo but I want to finish my own review of the game before a lynch, and I'm still way back on Day 1, having just completed the sotty vs. CC fight.

I also want to see more from Luxury and Snake. They're so quiet it's frustrating.

Must... not... rush... votes...

Unvote

[saulres]

I'm not 100 % sure you guys should vig tonight.

We don't have a choice. We have to.

Believe me, it's on my mind too. That's another reason I'm doing the full-thread read-through, and a large part of why I won't be posting all my thoughts.

And there's always the other issue which is, based on last night, we don't have full control over the tiger. And Junpei could be scum-controlling it too. People have said they don't want us doing setup speculation on the tiger works but I feel I have to do it, so we don't mis-vig. I'm thinking about it and turning over possible mechanics in my head a

lot

.

[saulres]

It's a Compulsive ability.

If

the scum moved it, that doesn't mean it's game over yet. They may need to know who we send it after to redirect, which is why I don't want to discuss potential targets in the thread again.

Another possibility I consider is that we don't know it but we only have odd/even days on it. That would be consistent with scum-Junpei hitting Sotty on N1, Fishy blocking me on N2, and scum-Junpei hitting Vi on N3. That would mean it's my turn tonight -- yet another reason I'm not going to discuss my target choices in the thread.

[saulres]

Different target, no kill
Different target, kill third person
So, our best shot at no kill is to target different people,

That's now how I read it. I read it as "any action which is applied to 1/2 of the vig team's vig action affects the whole team".

N2, I was blocked, therefore no matter what you did, the tiger was blocked.

If scum had a redirect last night, they applied it to one of our hits and so it overrode our individual choices.

I don't think we know for sure what happens if we target different people, so I suggest if you're town you also don't talk about who you might hit. Just go for someone you think is scum.

pEdit: I don't know. I think not knowing how it works, or splitting it between town and scum, is no different than applying even/odd. Someone with more experience might know if it's "bastard" or not.

pEdit2: The redirector could have hit either Amrun or 4nxi3ty in my theory.

I would hope that a redirector would be a one-shot. Otherwise, if we have to agree on the kill for it to work, and if we don't it hits a townie, I don't see how we'd ever be expected to make a successful hit on scum.

[saulres]

I forgot you claimed RB.

I didn't claim RB. Fishy did.

I blocked saulres last night

[saulres]

refusing to provide specific examples

Specific examples of what?

[saulres]

Riggs, let me get this straight... You think the scumteam is ace, crab canon, and sottyrulez?

Not Crabcannon.

4nxi3ty, was this your driving force to start pushing for a CC lynch?

Because if my interpretation of it is right (you think CC is scum because GNR excluded him from the scumlist), you're mis-reading. Amrun was referring to this post. The one directly after it GNR explains, quite believably, that he meant Sotty and not CC when he posted that. Amrun missed that -- or chose to ignore it -- too.