Mini 774: Case Closed Mafia (One Truth Prevails!)

[Korlash]

mrifnoc\

[Korlash]

Vote: Korlash

for always self voting in the random stage... Also for being a sexy devil... rowl... I would totally close his case if you know what I mean... seriously, do you? i have no freaking Idea what that could possibly mean...

[Korlash]

Um... You two are so dumb... yeah I said it, want to fight about it?

How can miller be blamed for trying to start serious discussion after Battousai already made it serious? seriously SC...

And you Johnny... *shakes head* Shame on you... Twisting his words like that...

Man this taking random votes seriously thing is fun... I should do it more often!

[Korlash]

Sure...

By that same token, YOU could be scummy for trying to start serious discussion at the earliest possible moment

... which is false... By applying tactics Bat already "tried to start serious discussion at the erliest Possible moment" and as Miller called him on it miller is no longer "trying to start" anything as it has already been started. So false. You're first sentence is false. And becuase of that, as you started off with a falseity, I don't give a rat's ass how sound the rest of your logic is. But just for the sake of continuing this fun inane conversation...

I don't see anything serious about Battousai's vote, nor do I see anything wrong with applying tactics in the random voting stage since truly random votes, e.g. voting with dice, are actually frowned upon.

In this case it doesn't matter what you see. To Miller he sees serious discussion starting, and thusly he has gone along with it. If everyone's actions were dictated by the thoughts and opinions of others this game would never end becuase no one would allow another to be right. This is actually a matter of difference of opinion, and as such that should be taken into account when making a vote.

Random voting does not last forever as Mafia is not a game of Russian roulette. Therefore, I'm questioning the validity of your FoS.

You are questioning the validity of a FOS made in the random vote stage... by arguing that applying tactics during the RVS is ok... I don't know... I kinda think an FOS is technically a tactic isn't it? It's a tactic to apply pressure without actually commiting to it...

So... pretty much your thought process was false, difference of opinions, and not even close but I'm going to lable it as a contradiction just to see what you say. I think I hit the nail on the head the first time.

[Korlash]

Bring it on, I'm ready to *laugh* light it up.

[Korlash]

Explain how that's applying tactics, Korlash.

You should probably ask Miller, but alright I'll give it a shot. Voting is a tactic, a common tactic, a very literal use of the word tactic.

But to futher get to it, it's a tactical subtle claim of Miller being scum via the "to help his scum play." it's a cheap tactic as there is no evidence presented to suggest Miller is scum. In addition labeling his policy as anti-town could be a tactic to discredit whatever policy Miller used.

How is it not applying tactics?

[Korlash]

@Korlash- Your still plain sight lurking to me.

I'm 'still'? Sorry I must be mistaken about he definition of the word 'still' as in order for me to 'still' be something to you you would have had to have made reference to it in the past. Did you and I just missed it or what?

And uh, yeah I kinda am, but I'm doing it in most of my games. But uh, 'lurking' isn't the right word to use on page 5. especially as I posted less then... what... 30 hours ago... that's barely prod worthy much less lurking. Don't falsely accuse people of shit will ya.

36- Korlash disagrees and says millar can't be trying to start serious discussion if I already started it and claim “Johnny”? Was twisting words.

Could you comment on the fact that millar called me suspicious for applying tactics, which he saw as me being nervous in RVS/starting discussion to get out, and the whole not voting in RVS

Johnny was directed at firestarter... it's a lame fantastic 4 reference... ha ha ha...

I don't actually understand what you want me to comment on... It doesnt seem like a question I can answer and uh... I really don't see what or how I can comment on what you're talking about in this bold. Would you mind clearifying it for me?

38- Korlash explains his last post. Said my vote was me starting discussion and thus when Millar FOS'd me he can't start something that already started and since that part of the argument is false he doesn't care about the rest of SC's argument.

Why do you not think that Millar not participating in the RVS is a tactic?

Did I say that? If so where. If not why are you putting words in my mouth?

At the moment I have only belive that these four players (including myself) have brought anything really solid to the game:

-Strangecoug
-Millar13
-Battousai
-FireStarter

the rest seem to be either Active Lurking, with the odd "I am still here post" or just off the radar completly. At the moment null tells is ultimatley all I have been given so far, and quite often in games it is only the null tells and little things that the mafia actually give away. Sometimes you have to be a little OTT and see the impossible as possible.

As much as I love seeing lurker talk on page five I think you better let the game come alive before you start boiling the town into an active pot and an inactive pot.

i personally like seeing that i'm not the most active person in a thread for a change... it's refreshing...

[Korlash]

First off, you implyed you believed not voting in the RVS is not a tactic by saying I started acting serious first. It is tied to my above quote where I asked you to comment on millar's lack of a vote in the RVS to see what your actual stance was and not guess it from what you implyed. I'll make the questions simplier:

1) Do you feel not participating in the RVS with a vote is a tactic, regardless of alignment?

2) If so, would my vote on him for this tactic still be considered "starting it"?

1) No. Much like Charlie in Dead Poet's Excersising your right not to vote is the same as making one, and as voting in the random stage is not so much a tactic as it's called random and real tactics can't be random, if you expect them to be effective, I would have to say not voting would also be considered a random act in that stage. So yeah long story short, no I don't.

2) Sure would. But that's just because I believe no votes are equal to votes in the Random Stage. To someone else it might be a different answer.

Korlash seems town to me.

Why?

Also I would like to know where both Korlash and Strangecoug stand at the moment, considering these are the only other active two that really have contributed anything of reall value thus far to this game

Alright, I have dobts about this new Firestarter wagon. For very few but drastic reasons.

1) Issac's 107:

Firestarter is scum. Typo's are not scumtells, nor is bad wording.

You unvoted not because people weren't posting, but because you were unsure as to whether or not you were on a popular enough wagon.

Your attitude is anti-town.

Bad wording can be scum tells. Real typos aren't but I suppose some scum could use that excuse to cover up slips. I find it really weird you would put this immediately after "Fire starter is scum"... How is this hard evidence he is scum?

How the hell do you know why firestarter did something?

And finally, how is his attitude anti-town in you opinion?

2) issac's 110:

He is jumping opportunistically on everything that could minorly be considered a scumtell without actually analyzing the reality of the situation.

The same can be said about you. You took firestarter's actions and instead of analysing them made up what you thought might be the truth and tried to pass them off as factual. You called his attitude anti-town but did not show why. And you called him flat out scum with some stupid little tid bit following it that i can't honestly see proving anything, much less justifying a claim of that sort.

So i guess my real problem is with Issac, not necessarily Firestarter's wagon. i have issues with him as well though...

He seems to go on meta for millar13, which is easy for a scumbuddy to summons up.
AND particularly if he's not going to look at other players meta's.
Its opportunistic at the least imo.

... It's as easy for a scum buddy to find as a townie. And how in the hell is meta usage opprotunistic? you're arguements are kinda stupid you know.

and would you mind actually commenting on Issac's 107?

You want my case....haven't you read anything I have posted earlier.
Haven't you read Battousai's post or Isaac's post.

The case is a collective case, and one that has grown since the start of the game. Nothing has changed, nothing knew has come to light. And you don't have the power to demand anything from me. If you don't know why you are seen as scum now, then I doubt you ever will.

... Alright then I demand your case. You call it a collective case, that means there is no real compilation of it. If you truely believed in your "case" and you truely felt Fire was scum you should be more then happy to throw a huge awesome case in his face. Instead you ignore it and act like you are somehow more important then him. and lynching someone that doesn't know why he is being lynchd is not a town act. That's proof you want him dead regardless of his alignment as you aren't interested in hearing his defense.

[Korlash]

Also don't you want a case from your other two accusers...or is it quite clear that their cases have actually built up from our interactions?

You know missing the obvious is kinda detrimental to your "not posting your case" argument. last I checked Fire is voting you, that makes you his prime suspect. No shit he want's to see YOUR case on him.

@ Fire: This whole misuse of bolding is really annoying... would you mind posting normally? Thanks...

[Korlash]

Man I'm almost ok with lynching one of you guys to slow the thread down a notch... ><

i seriously need to reread the entire Firestarter case because last time I checked in I didn't really think it looked all that impressive yet here it is... apparently catching on. I suppose My opinions at the time were more focused on Issac then Fire.

I do want to get a quick word in before I start my grueling process of trying to take this all in... Is Fire at L-2? has anyone asked him to claim or has a claim at all been covered? Did he claim already? I know I've only glanced at the new stuff recently but I don't remember seeing anyone even bring this matter up...

[Korlash]

Seeing as how I've been pretty worthless to this game so far I can at least give it the benefit of my super awesome pretty ok detective skills that is only comparable to maybe Jimmy Kudo himsefl!

Well, here's what can be analyzed from the name.

Being the mother of the main guy, the name is probably attached to a town player.

However, being a show featuring many characters, it would not be hard for a scum to find a pro-town sounding name.

Also, seeing as she does not appear till episode 43, a part of me doubts the likelihood that the character would appear in this game.

All of this said: I am for a full role claim, before we get to any lynch.

First off, I think She appears sooner in the series then my character does. So that's kinda a dumb reason not to trust her. seeing as how this anime went what, 150+ episodes... And the mod gave us no decernable timeline of the setting we have to assume it inconpasses all the series.

bassed off Gorrad's character use in deathnote major and minor characters are both used. safeclaims were also given in that game. Due to a particular piece of evidence regarding this game and gorrad in particular I don't trust Fire's claim. Although I won't dismiss it yet as there isn't enough to go on.

My name is Vivian Kudo.

I was asked to claim, and have done so.

Im a Vanilla Townie and Im off to bed.

This seems to be the only claims you have made so far. I know I don't have the right to demand anything in this game but I think you had better full claim, meaning flavor. We have your name, and your role. Now give us a run down of the rest and we'll go from there.

My opinion on the claim so far is kinda null. ignoring the main evidence I see against it and without being able to ruminate on the flavor yet I can't really say for certain. I can tell you in Death Note Gorrad used an inane character like this and choose to ignore a more prominent one in the set-up. However the main thing to note is the inane character in that set-up was given a power, where-as in this one he claims vanilla. As far as the role goes, Vivian Kudo was not one of the top 10 people I would have guessed to be in this set-up.

On the note of the set-up... i can pretty much assume we have Gin and Vodka as half the mafia and possible Kaito Kuroba as the SK but I doubt the mafia only has 2 members. i can't honestly predict who else could be the roles of the BO becuase I never happened to get that far. And from what I have read there are too many undercover CIA's and hated daughters and what not to assume they are roles. But I guess all this is moot really...

Anyways I'm still planning on reading up on Fire's case but I think it's a little pointless until I've gotten his full claim as I can't do anything about anything until I get that cleared up... *sigh*

[Korlash]

Its not that its is the spelling that I have an issue with, its the fact I don't believe his name claim is true.

No you pretty much have proven you have a problem with the spelling... I mean you don't make posts ona subject you don't care about...

And I was kinda hoping to gain something from the flavor but I can't really. it's completely different from mine but that doesn't prove anything. Does anyone else know if Gorrad is using "shinichi" or Jimmy? And the "With the investigation skills I've learned from my husband blah blah" just doesn't sound like something I would expect gorrad to write. Which again doesn't prove anything... still... I find it odd to use "investigation skills you've learned from your husband" instead of focusing on her own skills. I mean sure she's a mster of disguise which isn't all that great for finding the bad guys but I mean why the heck make her a role if you're not going to make it about her?

[Korlash]

My flavor is in the English version ala Jimmy over Shinichi. Looking at Firestarter's flavor, he uses the English version for the role name, but switches over to the Japanese version for the flavor...

I can't believe I missed that... Wow... I can;t believe Gorrad would use both English and Japanese versions int he same PM, I definitly can't see him using different versions of Jimmy for PMs either.

Sadly based entirely on that I'm ready to vote him but I don't want to until I have contributed something more then I already have.

[Korlash]

I find it funny he would actually say "Here is a link where I found all this stuff" which is the exact thing scum do when they make up fake theme claims. Now if he is town, i can understand why he wouldn't want to quote Gorrad word for word sure, but we can't let him live now.

We asked him to claim flavor, and he admits to giving us stuff he pulled off a Wiki. I'm all for paraphrasing, but that's just too rediculus to fathom. To be honest as well I had to look my role up too but if asked to paraphrase I won't pull stuff from the wiki, I'll just say my PM in a different way.

I am a little with Miller int he sense it's so crazy it just might be true but i can't endorse letting him live after this... I mean I'll never fully trust his claim anymore, and I do find it should be policy to lynch people who make a bad claim and then spend a few more posts backtracking to fix the holes...

[Korlash]

I agree with the discrepancies and wifom part, but lynching him for claiming vanilla is stupid. I admit his claim doesn't help but it's hardly a 'main point'...

[Korlash]

This is D1, our best guess would only be a guess. There isn't a lot of informationt o go off of. If we choose not to lynch Firestarter and say run up a wagon on millar, we could possibly out a powerrole or he'll claim vanilla. We then would probably lynch one of the two claimed vanilla players.

If there are 3 scum and both firestarter and millar are vanilla, that means when it comes to night the scum have a 1:7 chance of hitting a powerrole. It is best to lynch the Firestarter because it lessens the chance from 1:8 to 1:7 for the scum to find and kill a powerrole before they get to use their ability or if we run up a wagon on a powerrole, it almost guarantees their death unless there is a protective role. IMO, D1 you lynch the claimed vanilla.

Plus, more than likely we will end up lynching him later...

I'm not disagreeing with his lynch I'm just saying lynching him just because he is vanilla is stupid...

[Korlash]

That's true actually. If we have already decided on a lynch posting actual suspicion lists could only help the mafia decide on who to kill and how to start the day off tomorrow. I'd rather go in blind tomorrow then give the mafia more of a chance to set things up.

And besides, Fire's flip will probably change some people's opinions on other people. So our lists today might not even match our lists in the begining of day 2.

The only real plus side is to get the suspicions of the person(s) who is(are) Nightkilled. However, seeing as how giving such a list will probably help, if not lead, to who is nightkilled, it seems pointless becuase him dying has the possibility of being manufactured precisesly on that list.

[Korlash]

Well that's hardly the worst thing I've read on this site... And if you can't blame him for being frustrated then I don't see how you can honestly accuse him of Ad Hominem...

[Korlash]

Did you just ask why someone should bring up something they have a problem with?...

[Korlash]

You know what I asked Korlash.

... So you are admitting to asking such a blatantly stupid question with such an obvious answer?... What exactly were you planning on getting from this time you fought so hard to get? I mean wasting our time with trival worthless matters doesn't exactly make me want to spend another week with you.

SC, I am resigned to being lynched, Ive mentioned it at least twice in the last few pages.

Ive also asked for town to not end the day right now, after my claim. Ive posted it already, you can look up what Ive suggested beforehand.

... And you say it again.

Vote: Firestarter

He's fine with being lynched and is asking for more time to waste. Add to that his claim isn't exactly foolproof and how much his flip will give us kinda makes my vote a solid...

[Korlash]

How is the time wasted?

Because he asked a really dumb question and then responded with a vague inane answer when i questioned him about it. Neither one of them shows me he plans on using the extra time in a useful manner.

[Korlash]

@korlash: I don't like your attitude regarding the tactics issue. You defended millar for

saying battou applied tactics but pretty much said that anything applied as a tactic. So there

is no reason for millar to vote battou.

I said technically anything can be considered a tactic, because they are. But even then, doesn't that mean that Bat did in fact use tactics, and thus Millar did vote him for real reasons. I've seen votes made on way worse then that.

Also. I don't like the interpretations of

170 expresses a lot of the motives why I'm not liking the Fire waggon. He makes sense IMO.

Was this directed at me? I can't tell... The "also" kinda makes it seemt hat way yet I would have no idea what you are talking about if it is...

mmm... Fishing for a role? What do you guess his role is?

Dude, it's not fishing when someone is at L-2. If anything I'll argue I was trying to save his life. Maybe if you try to keep the BS accusations to a minimum your posts wouldn't be so long.

And what type of question is "What do you guess his role is?" I'm going to guess he's a character from Cased Closed. Wow I'm right! I must be a genius!

@korlash: When you asked for flavour in the claim... what do you mean? You now he can't quote the mod right?.

I'm sorry, have you not heard? It's this new invention called paraphrasing. You pull key words and prashes from your flavor and then fill in the rest with your own stuff. As far as what I meant, I mean any themed flavor put in his role PM that coud help confirm it as a real role. I hardly asked him to "quote" anything.

Am I wrong or he isn't allowed to quote or fake quote the role pm?

No, he isn't allowed to 'quote' anything from the mod, fake or real. But saying "my flavor is yadda yadda" isn't quoting anything. And as long as he changes a word here or there to prevent posting it word for word, it should be ok. Although this is probabbly best answered by the MOD.

While I don't like mislynching I think that battou's point of better lynching a vanilla than another player and knowing that Fire won't be killed tonight is not a good idea.

This is a very confusing statement just because of the wording. But overlooking that as it doesn't matter, yes, that is a dumb point.

[Korlash]

Firestarter (Town) = Millar (Scum) is actually wrong?

I have not seen any evidence that suggests if Fire is town you are scum.

Who are these people that are saying this?

[Korlash]

Ok. But, as Battou suggested earlier (though now he has already voted) we could just assume that Fire is gonna flip town and keep talking until the end of day. Then when he flips, we will have talked a lot more than up till now.

... What good is discussion based off an assumption? What if that assumption is incorrect? And of course if we all start assuming he flips town, we lose all the good scum tells of scum that knew he would have flipped town anyway, thus robbing town of one chance to actually find scum.

And we really need to get replacements before day 2 starts. Or it will be really hard to play.

I'm kinda at a loss for what you are actually arguing here. Are you saying we need to find them or we need to get them into the game? Becuase actually finding replacements will be easier during the night, however to actually get them into the game by letting them read and post should be done before we end the day. it's one of those pro/con scale things. If we only needed one replacement, I would probably suggest waiting to let them catch up, but as we are looking for 3 I don't think it's going to realy matter if we go to night now or wait the 5 weeks it will take to get them up to speed.

I know what paraphrasing is. You don't need to mock me.
Look. I'm ok if you just give me the answers. Why do you act like that when answering? I want to know things. It doesn't necesarilly mean I think you're scum. I just think this game has been excessively focused on only 2 people.

I need to mock everyone! *shakes fist*
I act like that when answering because you asked me a stupid question. I could have given you a straight answer but wheres the fun in that?
And did I ever say you called me scum? sounds like someone has a guilty Conscience...

This is what I've been fearing. This is why I wanted discussion and not a hammer.

well we kinda need a hammer regardless. The wagon has come to far to be stopped by "This might be a town/town argument!" We still need Fire to flip, and we can go from that tomorrow.

[Korlash]

EBWOP: "... What good is discussion based off an assumption like that?" There are certain assumptions in certain situations that I feel would could be argued as good assumptions to promote discussion. I'm only really interested in how this one particular assumption of what Fire will flip would help promote good discussion.

[Korlash]

@korlasch:
-Discussion, IMO, is always good. Scum usually messes up along the way. Regardless of the attitudes.
-Maybe it will be fine to get replacements at night. I don't know... It will definetly be a long night.

Discussion is not always good. For one, any discussion bassed off an assumption (especially a false assumption) is probably bad. And there is such a thing as too much talk. tl;drs, WoWs, forcing a day to last 2 additional weeks by saying we should keep discussion going, yet not actually knowing waht to discuss and end up just posting crap that makes finding replacements THAT MUCH FREAKING HARDER!... sorry got carried away there..

Anyways, point is discussion is not universally "always good" although it is most of the time.

I highly doubt the night will last too much longer just because we need replacements, the only thing that would cause it to last linger would be if the Mod couldn't find anyone to replace, but as this is a theme game, a game based off an anime, and being in night with less then 20 pages, I don't think it will be too hard to find replacements.

Also are you drunk when you post my name because you seem to be slurring it at the end...

And how am I supposed to answer that? It's lame. Some people feel that when you question them you're making a case because you think they're guilty.

The answer would be, "No Korlasch, you said that. I was simply trying to illistrate I was not making a case against you merely making observations and/or statements and/or [insert your own xcuse here]." Of course you can rephrase it however you want, it's just an example.

[Korlash]

*grumbles*

EBWOP:

"especially a false assumption" should read "especially if that assumption turns out to be false" in my mind they meant the same thing but reading it it might lead people to the wrong conclusions.

[Korlash]

You realize you messed your name up?

Well it was a hypothetical based on how you would have spelled it

[Korlash]

Heir to Blackblade! Its very Grandeur like and Legendary imo.

You must be thinking of my Father Mr. Korlash. I'm actually 12th in line for Blackblade and haven't quite mastered Grandeur yet.. ;-; But when I do I'll be putting two islands into play! yeah... Take that...

[Korlash]

Why is posting a list helping mafia? WIFOM.

I know I've explained it somewhere... But it helps because it gives them info on who to NK in order to set up the next day's mislynch. and it is not WIFOM, it is fact. Posting a scum list right before a lynch is a dumb move. The only people who should do it are the person ebing lynched and the person(s) that are Nked. (And yes, I know no one knows if they will be Night killed which is why it's a dumb move by anyone)

RE: the bolded part.. by your theory after a NK, why are you objecting to such lists if they "become obselete" in the next day?

Becuase they still lead to helping the scum choose and pick their NK and manufacture the next days mislynch. That combined with how obsolete they become only solidifies not doing it, not only does it help scum but it in no way helps town, A.K.A. Don't do it.

This is stretching, you go on to vote me after I told you so much.

Stretching? it is in no way stetching what so ever. I gave you the opprotunity to answer it and you blew me off. If it was a stretch you should have corrected me then and there.

Skimming through the thread since I was last active, I would say that the time spent has been spent well. Alot more discussion has gone on, and what will my flip give you? Again!

sadly I feel the extra discussion may lead to you walking, which is going to cause problems in the future... You flip will give town piece of mind if nothing else. You surviving until endgame will definitly decrease our odds of winning. And no, that is not the only reason I want you lynched, but it is a good thing to remember. You're flip also has a good chance of turning up scum, and in the event of turning up town you have been the most centered person today, meaning you will likely have connections to every player, thus giving us that much more to work with.

Bollox.... Dumb, inane, vague... That explains quite alot of players in this game, ya know...
That was a loaded question. You know it. My "Vague, Inane" answer as you put it, was enough for such a question.

You are the only one of those players calling for more time though.

And it wasn't a loaded question, you could have easily corrected me. All i wanted to know was why you were asking such an obviously dumb question and what you planned on getting from it. (First I had to make sure that was in fact what you were asking though, hence why i asked you what I did)

You're responce neither confirmed nor denied what I observed as your question thus making it a completely useless answer and making you guilty of avoidance. Thusly wasting the time you were fighting for.

I understood completely why I was asked to roleclaim back then.
However, it has been completely dismissed by some trying to 2nd guess the mod.

If you are talking about me, no. i've personally won games based on my role claim analysis, Clerks 2 and Fire-emblem in particular. Calling it second guessing the mod is a cop out and borderline strawman to my technique. Granted this is a Gorrad game, my analysis is bound to be flawed at some point. However, I am trying to inncorperate the games I have been in with him into my analysis but that won't help me until we massclaim.

And I have not "completely dismissed" your claim. Again if you were talking about me.

I did not want to get too close to my PM, because of Mod repercussions.
Ive explained why I posted what I posted, but again, some see it as scummy, by saying its... scummy.
In one hand, there are people calling me idiotic and dumb, also saying I need to go to kindergarden, and in the next piece, they're claiming Im some kind of smart scum for concocting a plan to roleclaim????
Which is it guys?

... i don't understand why this is under my part... I don't remember calling you and idiot or dumb? if I did I'm sorry... i can get stressed out sometimes... And of course just because you excplained something doesn't auto make it ok...

Is this directed at Bat or Alex? It was a reply to one of Alexhans posts.

Directed at Alex but Bat could respond to it if he wanted I guess.

[quote="Quote="Fire"]Again, why the rush?
Again, why do you "need the flip"?
I re-iterate that discussion has moved along quite nicely in this D1 since I last posted. Im pretty certain that what has been talked about in that time will have bearing in later game, as will what happened previous to it.
Dismissing it out of hand is just... wrong.

i don't personally believe this time is going to help us out. (the fact people seem to be going away from your lynch for instance)

If left alive you will become detremental to the town, or I hypothesis this. You may in fact become universally considered town, and in the event you are town this actually is good for us but I feel you are still likely scum and so i definitly feel if left alive you will be a major player on the lynching block at countless times in the future and if you survive until endgame will put town in danger.

Of course you would say that, your wagon is ebbing.

Sure it will, all discussion will. But I don't see why we can't put it on hold until tomorrow. I mean then we will also be able to use the info from your flip but from the night kill as well. In addition, by knowing your alignment I think most of the stuff going on right now will be greatly improved as far as usefulness. Which is more reason I am in bewilderment as to why we are not ending the day now and picking it up again tomorrow.

And discussion IS good, always, everytime....

[/quote]

No... it is not... Scum Run Discussion is alway detrimental and disasterous to the town. All my other examples, tl;dr, wow, and whatever else I said is also always bad. Discussion based on false assumptions and misinterpretations or misunderstandings will always lead to the wrong conclusions and thus is always bad. Do I need to go on? Discussion is not "always good, everytime" Cased closed. One truth prevails, yadda yadda... so on and so forth...

In this game, the spotlight was only on M13 & I... how can discusiion after this be a bad thing?

If we're basing it on one of you flipping a hypothetical role it has the potential to be bad. And of course if my hypothesis is true and this new discusion leads to your wagon failing, and you survive until endgame... It could very well lose us the game if you are town. granted, the discussion also has the opprotunity of being good as well. I am not overlooking that, simply saying there is n reason not just to end the day and pick it up again tomorrow.

[Korlash]

bring it on. if we're stuck with this extra time might as well use it to at least draw myself back into the game.

[Korlash]

Good... I thought i was the only one lost with Sajin's last post...

[Korlash]

1. Endgame?? We havent even lynched 1 person, yet your using WIFOM to argue against my "being in the game".
The simple fact is that the case built on me by M13 has now degenerated since I posted my most recent thoughts on the game, and since more input and analysing of the actual game thus far took place, even M13 has big doubts about the game panning out the way it was.
I refuted that case, and others have removed their votes from me.
Even players who at one stage were ignoring everything I posted.
Just saying "Town need to know your flip", isn't a case... but it has been something you've said quite alot in this game.

It's not WIFOM. If you are town you need to be lynched now. Otherwise, if you survive until LYLO or any other endgame scenario, you will probably either be one of the top two candidates or the most likely cndidate by yourself. Either way you would then have a good chance of being the lynch, and if town, would lose us the game.

By lynching you now we remove you from that situation AND we gain all the knowledge and info that might and will come from your alignment reveal. The only way you should be alowed to live through today would be if a cop investigates you. However, I would rather our cop investigates someone who will likely be useful, AKA not freaking vanilla, so when and if any massclaim comes about we get more (and more important) town confirmed. Yes, it's a little... unfair i suppose... But you have become detrimental to the town and so by lynching you we gain your alignment flip and connections to everyone from today plus we avoid any scenarios in the future where you being alive costs us.

I tell you what Korlash, you seem to think Im still scummy, I'd really like to hear it in one post please. Loud and clear.

Your claim is fucking Bullshit and you should be lynched for that and that alone. Everythign else I am saying is just icing on the cake. Now lets see if I can remember what about your claim was the BS part... Um... I think it had something to do with using both english and japanese and then admitting to having looked your claim up on wikipedia... Although I could be getting my games mixed up. I'm in two anime revolving theme games and similar shit is happening in each one.

You claimed to be jimmy's mom, vanilla, and used the japanese name for Jimmy right?

2. This translates to you knowing it was a loaded question Im afraid...

... no it doesn't. You could have easily answered "no" to it with no reprocussions. That is proof it is not loaded. a loaded question has detremental reprocussions form both a "no" and "yes" answer.

And of course even if it was a loaded question, you avoided answering it. Even avoidance of a loaded question is a bad thing to do. The correct answer to any an all loaded questions is "that is a loaded question, why are you asking me that?" Not "you know the answer to that..."

I've explained earlier in this list that there are other ways scum can set things up. Not posting a list of who we find scummy makes no difference, and saying that scum will base choices off that is a reach.

... No... it is not a reach. Just because there are other ways scum can set things up doesn't change that they can and will also use end game scum lists. If four people all say they thing player X is scum, the scum won't kill player X... They will mislynch him next day. Posting scum lists right before a lynch is a dumb idea.

I wouldn't be such a stickler on this if it didn't seem like so many people so absolutely aberrant against sharing information with town.

sharing info is fine, but sharing that specific info right before night is stupid. It in no way helps us and only creates opprotunities for us to lose. The only thing we lose by not posting them is the scum lists of the people who are Nightkilled. But if we are good we can easily read their posts and find out who they had a problem with and why.

Now, I will state that yes, I agree lists become obsolete, but if scum wanted to rip a kill to influence tomorrow's lynch, it can be done easily enough period, without lists. I understand you wanting to be cautious, if that's your playstyle, and I wont fault you for it, but I feel not sharing our thoughts as townies is an anti-town activity, as such I've gotten on sajin for.

... Have you even given a point why sharing the "lists" right before a lynch is so much more important then sharing it at the start of day 2? seriously, I'm being cautious because it's better to dot hat, then post worthless info. There is no gain to posting a scum list right before night... none... The lists scum would give us have the same cahnce of outing them as any other post they make, so it's kinda not necessary for that. The lists from the Nked people are easy to find as long as they were active and posted enough. And if they weren't how trustworthy can their lists be anyways? And finally any list made by real townies that change do to night actions don't have to deal with all the nagging questions like "Playe X was your number 1 and today you are calling him town" that fucking outs the cop...

Hell, now I have an argument that makes it anti-town. Do you seriously think this is still worth fighting me over?

Do you disagree with my point on a scum list (with details on WHY we find these people scummy, not just a list; I also wanted reasoning behind it) being a tool to help sniff out scum?

Sure, a tool we can use at the start of day 2 just as easy as the end of day 1. In fact, posting it day 2 does have some higher cahnces of catching scum. (Although granted in some situations posting at the end of day 1 has higher as well) point is, it's roughly the same thing either day, both have the opprotunity to out scum. Meaning I'd rather do it day 2. Town gains the same info and scum doesn't gain the advantage going into night.

If you don't understand how it can be utilized to find scum, I'll be happy to elaborate on it. I was just assuming everyone would see it's usefulness.

I see it's usefulness you are just wrong on the timing. If you can't see that I'm not going to elaberate on it. If you don't realize it scum catching tools kinda lose their effectiveness once you explain them.

No, I've also called for more time in a roundabout way.

Well I won't say I've been paying as much attention to the thread as I should but I haven't noticed you doing this frequently or in a big vocal way. And as you said "roundabout" I'm assuming you havn't been forthcoming over and over and over like Fire has.

My point still stands for the most part, he has been EXTREMELY vocal for it, he has been this way for a long time, and he has been fighting the hardest to get it. Him wasting even a second of this time with stupid questions and vague responces counters all the work he has put forth trying to get it. (Hell I could have accepted the stupid question if he had given me a real responce to my question. I mean at least that would have only wasted one post which is acceptable by anyone's standards. But if he's goign to start failing to respond when people question what he posts he is making his posting wothless and thus making this time not worth it as well)

Peace of mind? how so? I wont have full peace of mind until the game is over. Peace of mind is a horrid reason to lynch. How will his surviving to endgame DECREASE our odds of wining? his turning up town won't give us diddly, although I do think I think I can forsee what scum will try to do if he does turn up town. All of your points on him are HEAVILY opinionated, and none that I've seen in that last post have any good evidence or backing.

well I'm hoping my post here has given you some insight into this a bit more. I think he is scum for his claim, I think he needs to be lynched TODAY because of what his surviving will do to the town, be it a wasted cop investigation or a fucked up endgame. Even tomorrow, a lot of time will be wasted on him. He will almost certainly get a wagon formed on him again at some point. All of this is based on my opinions and my experiences if you don't agree his claim is worth lynhing him for and you don't agree letting him live is a bad idea then don't lynch him. I myself will not unvote him until he or I am buried. (short of undeniable scum being caught that is. i'd take a sure thing over him any day)

Korlash, I would like to ask you, what is it fire has done that has made him such a scummy target? You seem almost bloodthirsty for fire in how that's worded, and you strongly don't want town to move from this lynch, therefore you must be deadset that fire is the right lynch for town. I don't want opinions or you're thoughts on how town can gather information from his flip, I want evidence please, what evidence can you show us that marks fire as scum?

I'm bloodthirsty not for him being scum, but him being detremental to the town. The only real scum ponts aganst him is his bad claim, but of course that too is my opinion and judging from my last Gorrad game I'm not the best judge of character come claiming. And you'd be hard set to find any evidence that isn't unltimately an opinion. I mean what is a scum tell but someone's opinion of something that is scummy? Saying you don't want my opinions is like saying you don't wnat me to post.

Guess what? We don't know who the scum is. So while I agree, we all would; Scum running the discussions would be bad, yes; we have no idea who is scum and who is a townie. Thats what the discussion is FOR. Mafia is played under the premise that scum will act differently than town. Just because scum running discussion can be bad, doesn't mean we shouldn't have discussion at all. That example, on top of the point of you being afraid to post a list because you think scum can manipulate it makes me wonder if mafia is really the game for you. No offense korlash. Mafia isn't a game where we're all mavericks, we work as a team. It's good to have a level of paranoia, yes, but we can't let that cause us to fear discussion.

So? I don't care if we don't know who the scum are, the statment was "discussion is always good" I just fucking proved it wasn't. I won this argument, debate over. Next time, choose your words more carefully. I don't have to prove bad discussion is easy to tell from good discussion, simply that it exists. On that topic, I have proven my point. A worthless argument sure, but I take what victories I can get.

Now as far as the orriginal topic goes, i.e. today's discussion being good or bad, i've already outlined my biggest fear, that is Fire not being lynched. I find this extremely bad for town regardless of what discussion we gain. It's a big strawman on your part arguing me being a maveric hiding info from the town when my entire argument is how that info is bad for the town. Instead of focusing on that, you should be trying to explain how the lists are benefitial to the town and should be done now not later. Focusing instead on the fact I'm not giving information and overlooking the usefulness(if you can find any) and danger of said info is scummy on your part.

Survive until endgame? but you were talking before about how he'd be on the chopping block throughout the whole game if he lives today. You are trying your BEST to make sure fire dies TODAY. Your future logic is fuzzy.

He will be ont he chopping block every day, but endgame is where the most danger lies. if he is lynched or killed before then, then all we lose is the distraction he caused for that day. I'm focusing mainly on the endgame because it's the highlight of WCS for us, it makes my posts shorter and allows me to focus on the main parts. And of course this is another argumental strawman of sorts. I said 'if he survies until endgame' Or gramatically i said if, there is no if right in front of that sentence but the previous if carries over... I'm only saying this now to save time if you fail to undersand that... where was i... right, by somehow implying this statement of mine couters my other statements of being on the chopping block is BS. I said 'if' thus implying he could die previous to it, or you know be lynched some other day.

Can you try keeping future attacks on me on topic? You've pretty much boredlined fucked up everything I've said so far... It's actually making me wonder why you are trying so hard to force me to look like scum instead of just playing the facts like a true town should...

1. I want to hear more from you, especially why you think fire is such a menace that NEEDS to die TODAY.
2. Don't take anything I said offensively. I can come off sounding a bit mean at times, and it's not my attention. I just find your logic very questionable.

1: Think i covered it in this post so check.
2: I didn't. don't take any cussing I did in this personally either. I had a shitty day today and it looks like tomorrow is going to get worse... so... that's just me blowing off steam. And uh, dude I'm Krap Logick Korlash, I'd be suspicious of you if you didn't find my logic questionable. Also I liked that magic reference you said earlier in your post. Felt a bonding moment there man... *gets teary eyed*

This one is more solid. The resignation was way too sincere to be faked, and the position he was in when it happened was too dangerous to try that as scum.

How so? If he was scum who resigned to his death what he did was the most logical way to both try and end the day early yet appear to be wanting it to last longer. And um you're seriously underestimating scum if you think that was 'way too sincere'... just saying...

But we don't know who scum is! We all discuss and try to find scum tells and argue points until someone looks probable scum.

So? How does that in anyway disprove my point? Scum run discussion is bad, yes? Do you agree? Thus, discussion is not ALWAYS GOOD EVERY TIME is it? No. Fuck yeah, case closed. Don't argue with me over inane shit, I will drag you down to my level and beat you with experience. Sometimes being an idiot has it's advantages! HA HA HA!...

[Korlash]

Major HoS: Korlash. Enough said./quote]

That's a good way to avoid actualy refuting my reason for it. But ok. Whatever.

This is your case? the claim?
Ok..
This has been answered in 2 posts, firstly, view me in isolation, and read post 59 with the flavour that was requested, and in 62 when I told you why I posted the aforementioned flavour in the way I did.

So? What, you answer something so it goes away? By that logic no one would ever be lynched as long as they answer stuff.

You are basing this ridiculous theory on me being scum right now, and continuing to be scum right the way through the game, presumably, if Im left alive that long after the aforementioned continuing scum-like actions.
You say that if I'm town, I need to die???? WTF?
Earlier in the game I was being battered by almost everyone in the game, so drawing connections will be quite easy if I flipped town, thats a BS reason, end of.
Your case on me seems to be with the claim Ive given, you've continually said I need to be lynched, culminating in "If I'm Town, you need to be lynched". THAT alone should see you higher in the spotlight, as we are still in a healthy position to catch scum before D1 ends. You want this day to end quicker than anyone else, and your reluctance to discuss, calling it anti-town along the way, makes you scummier too. SC has done this to a lesser extent than you, but has backed off after the posts Ive made, joined with most of the replacements posts. For these reasons then, I must...

... You people are missing the point. If you are town you need to die TODAY, instead of dying in LYLO... If you are lyched in endgame we lose, and if you survive until endgame you have a high chance of being lynched. Where-as if lynched today, and you're town, we at least don't lose. It might sound like a stupid reason to call for a lynch at the time, but if we do reach endgame and you're alive and everyone starts remembering all the doubts about you and you start to see a wagon forming (and your town) just remember I tried to save us.

So your reasons for voting me are... A misrepresentation of what I said, although I highlyexpect you to say something along the lines of "it's the same thing..." even though it's not. The fact I want the day to end, which no matter how much you want the day to contnue or you think it's pro-town to continue or blah blah blah, I haven't said "end the day... silence" I've fucking argued my point and explained why I want what I want. Something you have yet to comment on. And my "Reluctance to discuss, calling it anti-town" Wow that's an even bigger misrepresentation then the first one. I've said a "specific type of discussion" (or in this thread we called it the scum list argument) had potential anti-town possibilities. I've also stated not all discussion is good, some is bad... Which could be interpreted as me saying "some discussion is anti-town" although if that is what you meant in this post of yours you phrased it horribly wrong.

So you're vote is based off two misrepresentatons and something you have yet to comment on my reasons for. Wow you're vote is solid man. What's the rule, third vote on a wagon is scum? *looks around* Yeah? Yeah i thoguht so. Hey look at that.

Wow I think I am going to have to re-read this.

You can be like me and skip it if you want.

[Korlash]

Oh right, EBWOP:

This is your case? the claim?
Ok..
This has been answered in 2 posts, firstly, view me in isolation, and read post 59 with the flavour that was requested, and in 62 when I told you why I posted the aforementioned flavour in the way I did.

"View you in isolation"? Yeah, every claim and every reason looks good when you take the reasponces and comments made by other people out of it.

The whole "I Pulled my claim off a wiki" is BS. That right there is why your claim is stand alone lynch worthy. That right there, combined with whatever else other peope might think, is why you will never be trusted enough to avoid being a lynch contestant. That right there is what will ALWAYS cause doubt in your claim, "He's town who claimed... off a wiki and not his role pm? hmmm, that sounds fishy..."

This is why you need to be lynched today regardless of alignment, to prevent the danger and distraction you will cause later on. And here's the kicker, i actually think you are scum anyways. I mean seriously, would I be arguing people will always find you suspicious if I thought you were town? I say this so no one ever makes the mistake of accusing me of calling town and saying lynch you anways.. I know someone was going to! Yeah, talking about you man *points finger randomly*... /paranoid look

Oh and @ People voting me and/or plan on voting me in the near future: Answer me why me, as scum, would work this hard to get Fire, as town, lynched? I had been inactive all day, why would I come back in and say these things as scum? That's just stupid. And why the hell would I do all this for a vanilla town? I could get if he claimed doc, but vanilla town? Come on... Call it wifom if you want, I don't care. It's still a line of thought you should answer for yourself before you vote me.

[Korlash]

;_; Did I ever tell you Shikamaru is my favorite naruto character...

Man that's going to seem so out of place if you ever change your avy...

And I don't think you ever said the exact phrase "If he is town he needs to be lynched today." which I think is going to be the biggest reason for a lot of the heat I will take here shortly.

I actually forget what Alex was voting me for... And what's his name used my inactivity as a reason. So neither of them are even voting me mainly for what I've been saying here.

[Korlash]

And you aren't doing it because...?

Not trying to answer for Bat or anything... but doing what? This seems a little vague to me... I'm assuming you're talking about not giving his list to Lind, yes?

Just trying to clearify this so I don't get back into the whole you wasting time argument.

[Korlash]

Why is it any different now?
Scum want more than anything else to lynch a townie, correct?
I didn't say I wanted to hang around for 2 weeks just so I could lynch someone, I wanted to stick around and help town after my inevitable lynch, as at that time, I requested the deadline based on me being lynched. Go back to the time I posted that, I did want the deadline to be reached, I was expecting to be lynched... I had NO hidden agenda, why as scum, would I post more content if my lynch was inevitable???

... *sigh* No scum want to appear pro-town. saying "I've been helping out town for two weeks" is more likely done by scum then saying "If you are town you need to be lynched today" and whatever else people think I said that was scummy.

And i've already covered the wasting time. Dead scum often use the last of their days with WIFOM and mis-info. I'm not trying to speculate on if you were doing that or not but if you are asking me why, that is one possibility.

If it reads townie, then it might go away, however, it reading scummy will only add to whats been there already.
Sit back, read again, and work it out.
Your tunnel-visioning is getting ridiculous at this stage.

It's not a tunnel vision. I'm pushing your lynch but I am in no way ignoring anyone else. Although gratned my lack of activity does make my attacks against you stand out more. And because I have been pushing this recent discussion as useless I've most likely not been a part of most of it, which has the sideeffect of making my case look sort of tunneled but at the same time keeping me consistant with what I am pushing. I don't fault you for thinking I'm tunneled, but I'm not.

And it didn't read townie, it read scum pulling a fakeclaim off the wiki. The exact opposite of townie.

OMFG...
I asked to view me in isolation as its much easier to find the posts, and it was the method I used to find my posts I spoke about.
Yet again, your twisting the context of my posts.
AND, if anyone wanted to see the build up, and/or posts after mine, thats very easy to do, Townies will do this anyway to see how the discussion went.. Do you seriously think I asked you or anyone else to view my posts in isolation hoping, just hoping that you all would NOT read the lead up, after-posts???
This is twisting, and stretching.

It's nice that you strawman this point and avoid the actual reasons I posted in responce to you after it. it really go to show just how scummy you are with your vote against me.

What have I misreped you on... your theory that leaving me alive now till endgame sees Town lose???
I, along with others may I add, are not misreping you, its simply a stupid thing to say when no-one has been lynched yet, and while theres the chance that scum can still be caught D1.
Remember, your basing this on me being Town, saying Ive gotta die in D1....
If you seriously think Im Town, and your posts have me believing you do for one reason or another, why are the hell would you NOT want further discussion, or to lengthen out the day, or do anything pro-town?
I mean, after I flip town, my posts may become valuable.. shouldn't they?? I say yes, but to have only spoken about 1 other person, M13, for the most part, what are you trying to achieve???
Your trying too hard to have me back on the chopping block, because you think its good for town to lynch a town...
I dont agree with your logic, and I certainly do not agree with your pursuing of me while basically ignoring everything else...

... Well first things first if you had actually read my post instead of just strawmaning that last point and skipping the actual reasoning I posted afterward you would know what you had misrepped. And of course you now have a thirdmis-rep in this post as well.

First things first, the mis-rep in this one.

Remember, your basing this on me being Town, saying Ive gotta die in D1....

No, I'm not. I already made this clear. I don't think you are town, I am not basing anything off you being town at all. I'm saying in the hypothetical situation in which you are town (last time I checked there are people in this thread who think you are town and so I have to argue this point in order to lynch you) You need to be lynched today, instead of waiting and being lynched some other day. WCS you are lynched endgame, in which if you are town we all lose.

the other misreps are:
1) Saying I said "if I'm town, I need to die" when I said "If you are town you need to by lynched today"
2) Saying I was "Reluctance to discuss, calling it anti-town" implying I called discussion anti-town in and of itself when in reality I called specific discussion bad with the potential to be anti-town.

Your vote and continuation of backing up your vote only shows you have failed to both grasp my points AND even failed to actually read my posts, something no town should ever do against someone they not only think is scum but are currently voting.

Covering your ass, when you based your "lynch Firestarter, coz if he's town it will be good" theory.
No, just no.

i don't need to cover my ass. What I am doing is for the benefit of the town as a whole, I'm like the hero of a movie who knows there's a plot to assassinate the president but no one believes me and everyone thinks my brother was a terorist and... wait... this is the plot of Eagle Eye... hmmm...

?Doing what?

Ha ha ha... Ahhhh... Told ya Fire...

He is asking you why you haven't been "more outspoken about it" like I have. I being whatever it is I've been outspoken about today.

To appear more townie so as not to get lynched? Is it possible you, as scum, thought if you dragged out the day and added some posts that you could save yourself from being lynched?

This too is another speculative argument for why he, as scum, would say what he said. I like the "mis information" point better simply because it allows for him "resolving himself to death" to be sincer thus accoutning for whoever said that. But yes, this is an equal possibility as well. It's perfectly reasonable for scum who think they may be lynched to do everything in their power to save themselves. And this would not be the first time scum argued for something like giving town information. Fire seems to think anyone as Mafia would be honest about being mafia and fight against things that are considered pro-town, when in reality the mafia are usually the ones pushing for these things.

[Korlash]

Oh really?
And when was the last time I posted fluff?
And why are you doing nothing else but posting fluff?

I'd say the last time I called you on it... for pretty much the same thing as now... You don't learn do you?

And why do you feel the need to throw attacks back at people without justification? I mean that's just bad play. One could argue OMGUS in this post simply becuse you failed to give examples of his fluff. As one player to the next perhaps when you attack people for things like this in the future you include reasoning and examples to back it up. And by the future I mean other games, I doubt you'll have the time to make too many more of them in this game.

[Korlash]

...and what else do you consider what you've posted as "and whatever else people think I said that was scummy."?

Whatever people have voted me for that was in regards to something I said. I have neither the time nor the energy to look it up right now. Although yes, that statement doesn't really efect anything I don't specifically mention. it was mainly directed at the one comment I did reference, and so let's just take the "whatever else I said" part off.

You did speculate..

If you're refering to the bolded part you quoted that is not speculation, that is fact or at least that is my opinion of scum in general. it's only speculation if i ever said "I think you are doing this" and as I said "dead scum" i.e. a general term, it is not speculation. Well I suppose it's speculation on a grand scale, but that's hardly something that should factor into this game or your case against me.

OK... thanks for making my point more... valid?

Nope. I explained why it looks like tunneling but is not in fact tunneling. The only thing you should be thanking me for is that it is not scummy to have called it tunnel vision. Any other day I wold have attacked you for misrepresenting my posts as a tunnel.

Nice avoidance of everything I said though. You seem to do this alot.

Again, I refer to me being called dumb, inane, etc, etc.. then clever-scum, and now supposedly dumb by giving out info on the roleclaim.
Its just not consistent, and your using either the best way it suits you to put more pressure on me.
So, again, which is it.. Am I stupid or clever?
BTW, Im not saying it's actually you who's called me dumb, etc, etc.. but it reads that way from your posting.

... unless you prove I called you both "dumb" and "clever scum" this has nothing to do what-soever with my point. Using other's words and reasoning to try and discredit my posts is scummy, so stop doing it or prove they were my words and reasons.

(i.e. you're calling it inconsistent that what I said is different from what other people have sid. Which is just stupid... Seriously...)

Strawmanning? You gotta be kidding me....

You focused on the one minor sentence and blew it up as my biggest point (and only as you ignored allt he rest) when in fact it was nothing more then a slide remark against your own word usage. Blwoing up a minor point and ignoring everything else is almost the exact definition of strawman, you strawmanner.

What you are doing now is backtracking... your ploy to paint me as town that needs to die has lost backing, now your trying another, painting me as scum.

First off this has nothing what-so-ever to do with the quote you quoted. Would you mind actually making a real responce to that quote? thanks.

Secondly, I've called your Claim BS since you first claimed it, this is not backtracking. This is me reiterating a point I've already made and you and everyone else has forgotten.

No.. you did not make this clear. Your basis of lynching me, if you leave out everything that you agreed with SC on, which was later refuted succesfully, is the Roleclaim and lynching me as vanilla town, remember.. "Lets lynch FS, because we may hit a PR and then have FS losing the game for Town."

You do have a point. My most recent stuff has been less about me thinking you are scummy and more about you needing to die regardless. This is because your wagon had lost some support, some people were calling you town, and that new guy said you looked sincere or whatever. I've been most concerned with trying to get your wagonback up to full speed and so I've been going after those thoughts and not the fact your claim is BS. Although granted i should have brought that up again earlier, for that it is my bad.

And sorry nw guy, not time to look up your name but you know who you are. This is not meant to be insulting I'm just super short on time and am trying to bust this out ASAP before I leave.

1. Whats the difference between lynched and dying?
2. You wanted the day to end asap, dismissing further discussion. THIS is anti-town and scummy.

In the quote you posted, nothing. The key word was not "lynch" it was "today" Sorry for not making that clear.
2) No it wasn't. i made my stance clear on why that specific discussion was useless and only helped scum. It would have been anti-town if all is aid was "this discussion is bad" but I outlined why it was bad and NO ONE has countered what I said, at least I don't remember anyone countering what I said but I could have missed it.

Bat admitted to not refreshing the page.
Also... outspoken about his beliefs, like you.

Doesn't matter, i was right you uwere too vague and that he would question you on it. Do you at least see my point about how much you are wasting this "discussion" with your vagueity now?

[Korlash]

I think this is one of the biggest things I can highlight in your last post....

Funny... seems to be the only thing you bothered to highlight... I just think you are being too liberal on the use of the word "things" is all.

Your admittance to having me lynched by whatever method is necessary for you to garner support from.

Yup. I think you will personally be the biggest reason we lose in a good number of situations that may or may not occur in the future. I will not sit by and allow you to survive thusly allowing these futre situations the chance to occur by allowing a number of people to sit by with the misconseption you may be "town"...

1.

After my claim, you went on a quest to have me lynched because if I'm vanilla town, and left alive, a PR might, just might be either mis-lynched or NK'd.

2.

At one point, I was resigned to being lynched, because this argument was presented by others, and at the time, some I thought more townie than others.

3.

Now... we've had a lot of discussion about this since, and the fact there is a chance to lynch scum, which is what Town should be doing, you have gone on to rant about me being lynched since the replacements entered the fray with their views. Those same players, along with others who have dropped their votes along the way, have seen me more townish than I had been.

4.

You also admitted to tunnelling me since thos same posts were posted.

5.

Now you are saying I should be lynched because Im scum???

6.

This is something scum would do, trying to mislynch by whatever means are possible.
And if you are town, then this is quite silly what you are trying to achieve, the most obvious reason being that you will be targetted if my lynch came about.

1. Did I? I thought I was a big anti-supporter of the "lynch you becuase you are vanilla" campaign. Can you show me where I "went on this quest" please.

2. You having been acceptant to your lynch is another reason you will be under suspicion in the future. Although it's hardly as big a deal as the claim so I'm just going to stick with that.

3. I'm pretty sure I was trying to get you lynched even before the replacements came in... And um, the fact people have seen you as more townish is kinda the reason I'm doing this whole thing. If everyone thought you were scum I kinda wouldn't have to... I just really don't get what your point in regards to this. Are you trying to argue you are town becuase other people think you are?

4. ... Where did I admit to tunneling you again? Can you please actually post where, maybe some explination as to how what I said is some form of admittance, and perhaps a quote or two would be nice as well. Thanks in advance.

5. ... That's kinda what you do with scum...

6. And no, town should try to get the person they want lynched lynched by any means short of misconstruding facts and making shit up. I have done neither. I am guilty of speculation, paranoia, pre-caution, puncuation, illiteration, and puppies but non of those make me scum. And it is not silly for town to try to get the person they think is scum lynched. If no town did that then scum would always win. Anyone who is not willing to fight for what they believe will be walked on in this game. Besides, any person who doesn't truely believe what he is arguing is the right thing and whoever he is arguing with is an idiot is going to lose. I believe you need to die, I believe anyone calling you town or arguing you should be left alive is an idiot, and I will do wahtever I can in my power short of falsifying facts to see you hang.

I dont think your silly, I think your being inherently scummy...

I'm inherently scummy for thinking you are scum and pushing for your lynch? So... is it just me or would anyone who attacks you be "inherently scummy?"

When I was on the chopping block, your posting was steady and deliberate, I feel.
Now that my lynch has become "less-inevitable" you are really trying to have it re-ignited, by whichever argument you deem necessary. Its become more desperate as time has passed, culminating in you wanting me lynched as town, and now as scum, fundamentally starting from very weak cases by M13, then SC.

... Seeing as how you yourself had resolved to being lynched off M13 and SC's case they can't have been weak. that's a contradiction from you right there. Their case was so good you yourself agreed to lynch you... I mean... that kinda proves right there their case had to be super freaking awesome.

Can you show me where my case has become "more desperate" instead of just saying it without backing it up.

and I believe you have your order wrong, I wanted you lynched as scum via the fakeclaim, then I argued that if you were town you needed to be lynched as early as possible (a.k.a today) not BECAUSE you may be town, just in case that is what you were trying to push there.

I believe M13's case is weak... as was SC's, as is Korlash's...
Who are you, to tell me otherwise??

Let's ask another supporter of the Fire lynch, Fire. Fire, seeing as how you were swayed by M13's case what are you feelings now on Fire calling that case weak? are you upset at this person calling M13's case weak when he himself thought it was good enough to lynch himself? Would you call him a hypocrite or would we focus on his general lack of backing up his accusations on things?

I'm looking forward to see if I can actually get Fire to attack himself at somepoint here. It's exciting.

Now, if Korlash believed me to be scum, why push a case based on me being town???

Well I think the fact that I was arguing potential loss of game and at the very minimum wasted time and wasted power role usage should be enough of a reason.

But probably on a more wider scale I would aruge I pushed it becuase I have no 100% assurance are in fact scum, so to ignore the possibility of you being town would be me shirking my townie duties. Lucky for me, the hypoteticals of you being town require you to be lynched as well. Kinda makes pushing the case easy.

Surely, pushing a case on someone being scum would be the best option, no??

Which I did as well. Are you saying here that as I pushed the fact that if town you needed to be lynched today I didn't coment on the scummy things you were also doing? I haven't gone back and reread it but I find it hard to beleive I would be pushing your lynch and comepltely ignoring the scum aspect of it. I'd like for you to comit to actually accusing me of it before I waste my time though. If I'm going to go back and highlight all my accusations of you revolving around you being scum I want to then be able to accuse you of willingly ignoring them in an effort to twist my case.

So I ask again, is that what you are accusing me of? *brings out tape recorder* ...

Seriously man I've been calling you scum for a while now.

He didn't have a case for me being scum, otherwise we'd have seen it first.
He's been trying to get me "policy lynched" for pages and pages now.
Again.. Bullshit.

*cough*

My opinion on the claim so far is kinda null. ignoring the main evidence I see against it and without being able to ruminate on the flavor yet I can't really say for certain. I can tell you in Death Note Gorrad used an inane character like this and choose to ignore a more prominent one in the set-up. However the main thing to note is the inane character in that set-up was given a power, where-as in this one he claims vanilla. As far as the role goes, Vivian Kudo was not one of the top 10 people I would have guessed to be in this set-up.

And I was kinda hoping to gain something from the flavor but I can't really. it's completely different from mine but that doesn't prove anything. Does anyone else know if Gorrad is using "shinichi" or Jimmy? And the "With the investigation skills I've learned from my husband blah blah" just doesn't sound like something I would expect gorrad to write. Which again doesn't prove anything... still... I find it odd to use "investigation skills you've learned from your husband" instead of focusing on her own skills. I mean sure she's a mster of disguise which isn't all that great for finding the bad guys but I mean why the heck make her a role if you're not going to make it about her?

I can't believe I missed that... Wow... I can;t believe Gorrad would use both English and Japanese versions int he same PM, I definitly can't see him using different versions of Jimmy for PMs either.

Sadly based entirely on that I'm ready to vote him but I don't want to until I have contributed something more then I already have.

This right here is my first real attack on you involving your claim. It ends in me disbelieveing your claim is real, thusly calling you lying scum. It is based entirely around your claiming being a lie, thus my first attack, case, point, whatever against you is focused on you as scum. So the first thing you did see was me calling you scum.

It's also a good point to mention my next post:

I find it funny he would actually say "Here is a link where I found all this stuff" which is the exact thing scum do when they make up fake theme claims. Now if he is town, i can understand why he wouldn't want to quote Gorrad word for word sure, but we can't let him live now.

We asked him to claim flavor, and he admits to giving us stuff he pulled off a Wiki. I'm all for paraphrasing, but that's just too rediculus to fathom. To be honest as well I had to look my role up too but if asked to paraphrase I won't pull stuff from the wiki, I'll just say my PM in a different way.

I am a little with Miller int he sense it's so crazy it just might be true but i can't endorse letting him live after this... I mean I'll never fully trust his claim anymore, and I do find it should be policy to lynch people who make a bad claim and then spend a few more posts backtracking to fix the holes...

It both adds to evidence I have your claim is false and marks the first time I pushed any thing remotely close to "policy" against you. So... I was pushing the "you need to be lyched TODAY" aspect even BEFORE your wagon disipated... I mean that kinda shoots down half your arguments against me right there. I did not "desperitely" start pushing you needing to be lynched after your wagon died down, I started long before that.

Who's bullshit now?... Wait no... that makes no sense... Who's... running with the... bulls with... gaw forget it... <.<

[Korlash]

1.

After my claim, you went on a quest to have me lynched because if I'm vanilla town, and left alive, a PR might, just might be either mis-lynched or NK'd.

2.

At one point, I was resigned to being lynched, because this argument was presented by others, and at the time, some I thought more townie than others.

3.

Now... we've had a lot of discussion about this since, and the fact there is a chance to lynch scum, which is what Town should be doing, you have gone on to rant about me being lynched since the replacements entered the fray with their views. Those same players, along with others who have dropped their votes along the way, have seen me more townish than I had been.

4.

You also admitted to tunnelling me since thos same posts were posted.

5.

Now you are saying I should be lynched because Im scum???

6.

This is something scum would do, trying to mislynch by whatever means are possible.
And if you are town, then this is quite silly what you are trying to achieve, the most obvious reason being that you will be targetted if my lynch came about.

1. Did I? I thought I was a big anti-supporter of the "lynch you becuase you are vanilla" campaign. Can you show me where I "went on this quest" please.

2. You having been acceptant to your lynch is another reason you will be under suspicion in the future. Although it's hardly as big a deal as the claim so I'm just going to stick with that.

3. I'm pretty sure I was trying to get you lynched even before the replacements came in... And um, the fact people have seen you as more townish is kinda the reason I'm doing this whole thing. If everyone thought you were scum I kinda wouldn't have to... I just really don't get what your point in regards to this. Are you trying to argue you are town becuase other people think you are?

4. ... Where did I admit to tunneling you again? Can you please actually post where, maybe some explination as to how what I said is some form of admittance, and perhaps a quote or two would be nice as well. Thanks in advance.

5. ... That's kinda what you do with scum...

6. And no, town should try to get the person they want lynched lynched by any means short of misconstruding facts and making shit up. I have done neither. I am guilty of speculation, paranoia, pre-caution, puncuation, illiteration, and puppies but non of those make me scum. And it is not silly for town to try to get the person they think is scum lynched. If no town did that then scum would always win. Anyone who is not willing to fight for what they believe will be walked on in this game. Besides, any person who doesn't truely believe what he is arguing is the right thing and whoever he is arguing with is an idiot is going to lose. I believe you need to die, I believe anyone calling you town or arguing you should be left alive is an idiot, and I will do wahtever I can in my power short of falsifying facts to see you hang.

I dont think your silly, I think your being inherently scummy...

I'm inherently scummy for thinking you are scum and pushing for your lynch? So... is it just me or would anyone who attacks you be "inherently scummy?"

Fixed... Got too focused on the bolding... missed the stupid end quote...

[Korlash]

@Korlash: I understand your point of lynching Fire(Although I consider him town and would prefer to lynch someone I consider Scum), As I said to battou. But I don't undestand why we must rush it.
You're giving to much emphasis in the info we will gain when he flips... I don't think it's gonna make us find scum that easy.
How is he detrimental to the town?

Well at first I just didn't see the point in the extra discussion. We found someone I think is scum who regardless of alignment should be lynched today anyways. Why give him and the other scum the chance to set up false info. Once we have found scum it is perfectly logical to end the day.

And I haven't been giving too much emphasis on the info... that has kinda been a secondary point. It's the benefit we will gain if he flips town. I'm not in anyway saying lynch him because of this info, but it does fall under the "pro" category.

Also he is detremental because he will always be under suspicion. Today, tomorrow, the next day. Every day he is alive he will distract the town. Eventually, if he survives until edgame, he will probably be the person lynched, if town he not only has thusly lost us the game but has wasted every day up til that point of discussion and talk that could have been used to out real scum. Of course if he is scum we won't lose, but damnit that just means we should have lynched him DAY 1 instead of endgame.

Now I could be wrong. This is all based on my experience and future speculation, however I believe I am right and so I must argue my heart out to get my point heard and Fire lynched. If you disagree with me on him being a danger to th town and you truely believe him to be town then fine, there is nothing I can do to convinse you short of continual scum hunting against him. But if we ever make it to endgame and he is still alive... 10 to 1 odds what I say comes to fruition...

If you're scum andyou start at day 2 you can choose from alive people and conviniently push towards who you want lynched. If you say who you think is scum before you won't be able to change so easyly without explaining. Why do you refuse to say who you suspect? This is mafia! It's our job.

says who. Mafia can change their lists based on Night results as equally as we can. They list players A, B, and C as thei top three. So they kill player B and then change their list to Players D, C, and A based off that night kill. That is a complete 180 on their list and there is no way to tell that flip from an honest town flip.

Cementing scum to a list now is hardly worth it. There is an equal if not greater chance to out scum who post lists at the start of day 2 then there is catching scum who post lists at the end of day 1. I'm not going to say how though becuase if I do they become moot. Whether you trust and believe me on this I don't care. After i catch the scum during day 2 off their lists while you are still trying to figure out what your day 1 lists mean I'll try to keep my laughing to a minimum.

Hmmm... i seem to remember someone telling me something about counting my chickens... hmmm... Oh well I forget whatever it meant... 3...4...5...

And I do not refuse to say who I suspect, I refuse to everyone posting a list right before night. Ask me who I suspect, I suspect Fire. I think he is scum and needs to be lynched.

As far as who else, no one else has really sparked anything for me. I still have my suspicions about Issac but I hardly have anything resembeling a line of attack. i never really had any good thoughts about Pacman but you aren't seeming all that bad.

By your style we should be anti town along the day so we don't get nightkilled... That's what Wall-e did on a game... act scummy to avoid nightkill. He was lynched Sad If you must take one for the team. Then do it. Because if your suspicions follow go down to your grave then it's useless for town if you were right.

... By my style? and no good townie's suspicions follow him to the grave. You seem to think posting a list is the only way to get your suspicions out. But it's not. I could probably give a semi-accurate scum list for everyone in this game if I had the time, which I don't... You read what a player posts and how they interact with otherrs and you can get a pretty good idea of how they feel. All we lose are "gut feelings" which are hardly helpful anyways. Not a big loss...

I, as Fire, feel you're too tunnel-visioned.

Oh? So I had a period of inactivity and when I come back pushing a lynch I auto become tunneling? No. I appear to be tunneling simply because everyting going on right now revolves around fire. Me and him have become the near most active, so half of my posts deal soley with him just becuase no one else had posted. I have not ignored you, or bat, or SC. I'm still watching Issac, and... yeah I haven't said a lot to the replacements but they just got here. I'm not tunneling becuase I am in no way shirking my responcibility as town toward every other player. I just have more to say about Fire right now.

Rephrase please

I shall do my best...

... *sigh* No... Scum want to appear pro-town. Saying "I've been helping out town for two weeks" is more likely done by scum tryng to appear pro-town, then saying "If you are town you need to be lynched today" which is a statement concerned more with the benefit of the town then making himself look pro-town.

That should be a little better to read and understand i think. And yes, I changed the implication of the last sentence to better make my point. As Fire had already discussed this with me I felt it important to simplify it.

It's ok. ALEXHANS! Wink I sparked new discussion though. If Fire was lynched just when I arrived there would only have been Fire vs Everyone (Almost, I tend to use everyone often, you see) and nothing else.

Really? I could have sworn it was Kair... You I know, him I didn't... Whatever, one of you said it...

I don't think discussion is bad, by the way. I feel that discussion from everybody is always good. NO matter if it's scum or town. It's registered. So it definetly can let scum-tells show.
The only discussion that might not be good is when you know or suspect someone to be a PR and say it out in the open. That's uncool.

It generally is good almost all the time. I haven't been trying to argue it isn't, simply that in this one specific situation ending the day is better then continueing to waste time. (The examples I posted were simply to try and explain that discussion does in fact have certain situations in where it can be bad, thusly helping to get your people in a mindset to accept what I was saying about today.)

As far as why ending the day is better then discussion right now, there have been a lot of reasons over the course of my argument. Some still apply, some have changed. But I still feel the day is fine to end right now as long as we lynch Fire and I do believe it SHOULD be done. (For those of you wanting examples of my reasons that have changed, take the replacement issue. I argued it would be easier to find them at night, obviously that is no longer a reason.)

Haven't you ever seen town accept their lynch? Scum would be more desperate to survive.

Yes, I have seen town accept their lynch. Almost as many times as I have seen scum accept it. Scum are more concerned with ending discussion then with surviving once they accept defeat. Town on the other hand, once accepting of their death, are more interested in grilling the people attacking them and getting their opinions heard. Fire gets points for both, but overall i find him to be more likely scum then town.

And of course the argument is different people will do different things in different situations regardless of alignment. I as scum will NEVER accept my lynch. Never. I will fight until the mod tells me to stop. BUt there are some scum who will self hammer. Two different playstyles for the same alignment.

He actually resigned to the fact that he wouldn't be lynched. That's different.

Where? i thought he was saying "lynch me at the end of the day but talk first" which is accepting BEING lynched, not not being lynched.

@everyone: Regarding the English or japanese thing... Does anyone else has english names in their role? Mine sounds japanese. Do you have a list of english/japanese name relation? I want to see if there's a translation in the english version or not.

search your guy on google and find him in any Case Closed Character wiki, as in the page on Wikipedia for example. It normally lists japanese names and english names. (i assume there may be some characters who have both.)

just Checking your posts? You voted for him... that's not a check up. That's pretty serious.

Kinda useless to check in on a thread if you're going to pass up doing important things no? I'd have to read his post itself on the subject, but checking in on a thread and voting isn't a bad thing really. If he had reason to vote it's better he did it then didn't. The longer you go without doing 'important things' the more you look like an active lurker. I'll see when I have time to check up on his vote in question.

That adresses all of your points. When I have more than a few minutes at a time to spend here then you get your reread. Until then you get to deal with me doing things as I go.

Probably not the best person to be asking this of you seeing as how my play this game has been but... I would like those "many reasons" that Alex is scum asap. Your lack of a full readup didn't prevent you from noticing those reasons, so it shouldn't prevent you from posting them.

Started rereading these last few pages on my off day. I found this and thought it is interesting. Contradiction? Possibly. Firestarter admits that if he is left alive today, he will be lynched later. That, with claiming vanilla townie, means that he forsees his mislynch in the future. Now when Korlash wants him lynched because if Fire is town, him being around would result in being mislynched at an inappropriate time (end game), Fire uses it in his case against him.

It is a good point to notice he himself said he should be lynched because of the WIFOM, which is pretty much the same thing as my points against him. Funny that he is calling me scum for it. Nicely done...

I think his situation was desperate and he had given up trying to survive. Now, if he sees he has some hope... why does he have to curl up and die? I don't understand how that's supposed to be scummy.

He doesn't have to curl up and die. He can fight, hell I would fight. It doesn't allow for him to contradict himself though. Both this new WIFOM quote Bat brought to light and his vagueness/refusal to cleafiy eal countradicting his call for extra discussion time. (Granted it's barely even a contradiction, but it still holds contradictive properties)

Point is, he doesn't have to curl up and die, that is not the scummy thing about him.

I'm failing to understand what Battousai is talking about.

Fire said he shouldn't be allowed to live because of the WIFOM it will create in the future. This is very similar to what I have been arguing, yet he is calling me scum for saying it. Doesn't that also make him scum for saying it?

[Korlash]

Your first point proves that you were wrong about eplacements being easier to find at night, yet you staunchly spoke of this many times in your case to see me lynched.

No it doesn't. We never went to night. How long do you know it would have taken? It took at least two posts by the mod speaking about "still trying to find replacements" or something like that. You can't "prove" something with only one half of the evidence existing man. This is a pretty stupid statement on your side. When we replay this game let's go to night with three replacements needed and we'll see which game took Gorrad longer to find the replacements for.

This is just another example of the BS bad rebuttles you keep trying to pass off and... I have to tell ya... shit like this only makes policy lynching you seem like such a great idea on top of the reasons I've already given. So thanks for making my job easier man...

"Scum are more concerned with ending discussion than with surviving once they accept defeat"
Does this apply to me...??
Town on the other hand, once accepting of their death, are more interested in grilling the people attacking them and getting their opinions heard.
Does this apply to me..?

None of it applies to you, it was all "in general" the only thing that applies to you is the "People with different playstyls" thing at the end.

Yet you say I get points for both.... How?
Did I end discussion after being resigned to being lynched?
Did I grill those attacking me and getting them to post?

You get scum points for "mis information" and town points for continuing to 'scum hunt' although I use that term loosley. As the mis information thing is unproovable and scum can pretend to scum hunt neither are real valid points. This is a subject where one person can make a case about you being scum and you can make just an equally comelling case that you are town. It's kind of a moot subject when you really think about it and I think once three or four back and forths have been made about it it's nearing time to 'move on' so to speak.

You didn't end discussion you started wasting eveyone's time with vague questions and refual to clearify them.

and um... Sure... I guess you did.

Now, unless I have not made myself clear, Ill repeat this for clarification...
At one stage in the game, almost anything I posted was being ignored or dismissed out of hand, this was because most players had a vote on me, I was L-1 at one stage.
And yes, I became resigned to being lynched.
But with the replacements coming into game, they've heartened me with their posts, and has re-ignited my want to remain in the game.
With the game still in D1, there is still a chance to find scum, rather than lynch a "resigned to being lynched vanilla townie", which was, what was happening at the time.
I was resigned to being lynched, but I never said I wanted to be out of the game.

... Doesn't change the fact you were at one point resigned to being lynched, and it definitly doesn't change the WIFOM but Korlash = scum contradiction.

And... Who said you wanted to be out of the game?

The basis of me being lynched was that I was claimed vanilla townie, and was the main push on me being lynched... Not that I was considered scum.
With the game still in D1, there is still a chance to find scum, rather than lynch a "resigned to being lynched vanilla townie", which was, what was happening at the time.
I wanted to help, at least in bringing out scum before being lynched, and SC's attacks on me after the replacements came in, looked really bad, he was pushing inconsistencies and lies, which has been now shot down.
I voted him for it, and he is still near the top of my pile.
Korlash has pushed my "being town needing to die" case, and has hit a brick wall.. Why? well, it should be evident...

I haven't hit a brick wall. Last I checked my wagon just halved and I pretty much got SC to admit you were scum... Seems to me like I'm progressing at a very fast pace.

Now he's calling me scum, and as far as I can see, he's using the roleclaim as the main point in his case, along with the ever more present Battousai. This Ive explained numerous times now, and should be easily referenced in my isolated posts.

Ok... I've never tried to hide your explinations, people can look at them all they want. Doesn't change the fact your explinations make you more likely scum. I mean you explaned you pulled your claim off a wiki... You pretty much admitted to fakeclaiming right there... I kinda don't even see why I am wasting my time arguing, you should have been lynched the second you said that.

So yes, people, please go read his explinations for yourselves. I woud love to actually hear some rebuttle on this.

Lets lynch him because he's town. Fail.
Lets lynch him because he's scum. Unbelievable.

Never said lynch you because you're town. Now who's pushing lies and inconsistencies? yet another point against you. I told you guys I could get him to attack himself and here he's done it twice now. Go me!

It's unbelievable to lynch scum? How does that make you town to not want to lynch scum?

I dont think that lynching someone on future scenarios is a good thing, if it was, we'd kinda know how its gonna go from the outset, and not even bother taking part in the game... This is at the very least anti-town
He's already been shown to be wrong by saying replacements will be better found at night.. Thats aload of rubbish, it was just another reason to have my lynch pushed through quicker.

We don't know how it's going to go. knowing that one player is going to be a danger in the future hardly tells us the outcome. Now your opinion on furutre speculation is fine. we're all entitled to our own opinions on the matter.

I will note this is the second time you have pushed I was wrong about the replacements when you have no proof of how long it would have taken to find the replacements. You are kinda sad if this is the best thing you can find to combat me... I mean being wrong abotu that would hardly have effected my case on you in anyway even if I was.

Can we lynch this guy now? Please?

Korlash in the quoted parts of his posts atop of this post, back me up by his theory.
1. I did not want discussion to end after being resigned to being lynched.
2. I did attack/grill those wanting me lynched.

1. So? Scum can say "let's keep talking" just as much. I myself admitted as scum I would never give up and would keep fighting until I died. Different people, different play.
2. And? To your credit you do probably follow this rule of thumb. Congrats man, you have a semi-worthless moot townie point! yay! Far outweighed by yur obviousness of being scum, but hey small victories right?
3. You also have the moot worthless scummy point for your costant use of vagness and refusal to clearify which falls under the scum setting up misinformation part of the "scum v town give up theory" So you're 1 for 1. HA! not really a victory at all I guess.

Im now less sure about Korlash being scum, Battousai has come into my reckoning because of his playstyle.
This I will investigate into later.

How? What did I do to make you less sure about me being scum? Gain support? You see my wagon beginging to drop and some of my arguments being heard so you jump ship? Seriously you just made a full post attacking me and my points yet I somehow magically am less scummy to you? This is more BS man... Seriously, how can anyone think you are town?

MAIN FOCUS OF THIS POST:

For all you non-fire readers who have grown tired of my posts here is a little pick me up to help you get through it easy. The main things to take from this post are:

1) In regards to the WIFOM thing, he never really answered it. He began to, but then went on to other things. He pretty much avoided the topic all together except for the line "Regarding the whole WIFOM issue if I was left alive... " That was litterally all he said on it.

2) He says he voted SC for pushing "Inconsistencies and lies" and then accuses me of trying to lynch him because he is town. Which is a lie itself. This is his second contradicting statement for those of you keeping score at home. It is further proof he is misrepresenting my case against him at every turn.

3) I somehow got less scummy to him after a full post of him attacking me. I just don't get how that is possible. So questioning how much he relaly thought I was scum, and how much he was just trying to mislynch me after all this.

Pretty much the important things to take from this post are, Fire is scum, Fire needs to be lynched, and of course Fire is scum again.

[Korlash]

Also, I have plenty to attack you for. I just have a shitty memory, so it's all vague and jumbled in my head with my other games right now. When I do my reread you will get probably a ~5-7 page (in word) post detailing my read of the game.

But until then, you get to

Deal.
With.
It.

... Instead of posting all these little worthless quips you couldhave probably managed a semi feasable post outlining in brief detail a few, ot all, but a few of the "many reasons" you mentioned earlier.

And he is not the only one asking you to do this... so... you're running out of room to keep blowing us off.

[Korlash]

Kair unvoted SC and voted you... So while he isn't voting you when he said that, he is voting you now.

Korlash and Battou should note his Fire is town statement. You didn't even address it.

How does 1412 Maple Street sound? There... it's addressed.

What do you want me to say? It's not really that important. Replacements come in all the time saying "So and so looks town" addressing it isn't likely to pan out to anything.

And just for the record, I did address it. I addressed it like twice. I've commented twice on how the new guy said Fire's "resignation was way too sincere to be faked" in some form or shape. It was one of the examples I used to show how people were thinking he was town, and I believe I even made a comment somewhere expalining how the "resignation" isn't sincere or how it could easily sill be done by scum.

[Korlash]

I just don't really care enough about it to worry if he says something or not. As a constant replcement myself I can honestly say I am not holding that statement of his in any really meaningful way.

And I have looked at the mis rep, I just don't want to get into it until he addresses your "other many reasons" for being scum.

[Korlash]

In my last post against Fire I made a very clear "main focus part" so don't demand shit of me when I've already started trying to make life easier for you.

Fire is scum based off what I feel is a likely fakeclaim. He admitted to pulling it directly off a wiki and so it cannot be trusted ever for any reason.

Because of this and his readiness to be lynched he will be a danger and dsitraction tot he town int he future. Thusly, as he is not only likely scum but a future hindrance he should be today's lynch.

He kept calling for more discussion (which he later tried to use in his defense as being town... Kinda making it appear that was his plan all along! Wait I'm getting ahead of myself) while making inane and vague posts/questions and refusinging to clearify them when asked. In addition he is guilty of contrdictions, pushing inconsisntancies, and blatant lying. All in all this is text-book scum mis-information.

His contradictions include arguing he should be lynched becuase of the WIFOM, and then calling me scum when I said it. Another one is when he said he voted SC because he was pushing Lies and Inconsistencies and then in the next line blatantly mis-represented my case with a lie himself. He has also tried to mis-rep my case constantly with this lie, which I feel makes it an inconsistency itself.

That is more or less the most important topics. I understand when two people get going at it they tend to make a lot of tl;drs so I hope you enjoyed this summery.

[Korlash]

Hi new guy.

Also,

Korlash-

Read post 473 or at least the top of it, as I asked you a question there that you haven't answered.

My bad, I haven't been giving this game the full attention I should so I may have missed some things... lets see... 473...

Why do you assume this? Especially after I noted how Fire's claim uses both, yet you thought it was suspicious then.

I assume you mean the "some may have both" thing. I'm saing there may be characters with identical names in each language. Like Yusuke in japanese translates to Yusuke in English. anyone with Yusuke as a name is not only a kick ass spirit detective (Hey Gorrad /in for Yu Yu Hakusho? eh? eh?) but would both qualify as an English and Japanese name. Jimmy on the other hand has a specific japanese and english name. That's what I meant by both. It's supsicious Fire would use a japanese name for one role that hs a specific English name and then use an English name for himself. (Vivian's name in japanese is "Yukiko"... so his role is obviously not a "both" qualifyer)


I can see where the misunderstanding came in there... I appologize for not making it clear. I hope this answers your question...

[Korlash]

Where did I say we need to do a list at the end of the game? If I'm not mistaken, I was asking for a list for today. I stated my reasoning why earlier in this post.

I'm almost certain I meant end of day not end game. I appologize for that.

WAIT.

Sharing info is fine?

Sharing that info before night is stupid?

That same info, which you said before was fine, helps us in no way? Then why share it period. Your tactic sounds like everyone running around aimlessly with no communication between town. You don't want to share info, your post made that very clear. That is stupid.

"sharing info RIGHT before the night..." There are certain times when missing a single word cahnges everything. And I said "sharing info" is fine in general, where-as this one particular case of sharing info is not. I don't want to share info of a certain kind at a certain point. I'm a little tired of people like you making this accusation. That is a blatant misrepresentation of what I have said and is borderline twisting my words intentionally. I have corrected this false accusation many times already and I'm tired of people ignoring that. I'll do it one more time in a new and inovative way!

Take Rights of flourishing. It's a magic card that allows each player to play one additional land each turn AND draw one additional card as well. When you play it you gain the advantage on the land drop, providing you have one, however you allow your opponent to gain the early advantage of the draw because he will draw before you will.

Much like this, sharing info right before night gives us the small term effect of gaining any info out of it immediately if any is there. However the scum will gain the early advatage of using those lists to determine their nightkill AND to help set up tomorrow's and future lynches. During night we as town cannot discuss these lists, so they do us no good to say them right before going to night. Giving our lists at the end of the day has no added benefit for the town as giving them at the begining of the next day, but it does give advantages to the scum, and so it's obvious we shouldn't give them at the end of the day but at the start. I am in no way against sharing info, I'm against sharing info at a bad time making that info not only a danger tot he town but also partially worthless.

I appologize for anyone who doesn't get my magic reference but i don't care. I'm tired of this mis-rep constantly returning against me regardless of how I explain it so... yeah...

read earlier in this post, I said why I feel a list is helpful for catching scum. If you can't utilize that to find scum tells, then fine, I can't fault you if you play a different way than I; but I try to, you know, utilize as much information as possible to determine who is scum and who isn't.

You keep missing I too find lists helpful, my way is the exact same as yours only givin at a different time to maximise the usefulness of the lists. A list at the end of one day and at the start of the next both have roughly the same chance of finding scum. The only difference is my way is safer and has less risk.

Big whoop. I told you how a list can be used to find scumtells, depending on the timing. Threatening me with "anti-town" bs doesn't scare me in the slightest. If you think I'm scummy, vote.

That's a little odd to resort to daring me to call you scum. Am I to take it you mistook that statement as me calling you anti-town? Because that was not my intention. And I do not recall you arguing the timing issue because that has been my main point. Why is claiming at the end of a day better then at the begining again?

What? You've gone on about how its this HORRIBLE idea to post at the end of d1, and now you're admitting that it can have higher results of catching scum as well?

So in a nutshell, you're admitting its usefulness, but your fear of giving scum information is going to hold back gathering more evidence for town?

You're constant missing of words in my posts is giving me strange feelings about you. I said in certain situations you're would work better then mine. Let me give you a hypothetical.

1) We claim lists day one and a scum is stupid enough to out himself clearly. Your way is obviously better as it let us catch this scum a full day earlyier then mine would have.

2) A scum makes his list at the start of day 2. The night delay has caused his memory of this game to become a little fuzy making him slip up on his list. My way is obviously better as the elay caused the scum to slip up, where-as making it day 1 would have had his mind clear and fresh.

What are the chances of either of the above? The probability of both relys on the scum, meaning I don't put much bank in it. There are also certain scumtells your way is more likely to out while there are other tells mine are more likely to out. If te scum are more prone to making the tells yours show, then yours is obviously better.

We can argue this all you want. The only times your way is ever better then mine is in hypotheticals where the scum do a particular thing. Because I'm not willing to put any faith in that, i have to throw out your idea and go with mine which has non-hypotheticals in it's favor as well as it's own hypotheticals.

I see nothing scum-like in his claim, and find it believable, I DO agree with your point on him being a wasted investigation however. A wagon can be formed on anyone. We shouldn't lynch you now because you could have a wagon later on you (which can happen) I find that a moot point. Thank you for pointing out your reasoning more though.

The fact he claimed to have an english name yet mentioned a japanese name for Jimmy? The fact his flavor neglects his character's skills and focus's on his Husband and son instead? Forgive me for not seeing it likely a themed role would be "You're only here because of other people. You yourself are useless without them." And lets not forget the fact he admitted to pulling his claim off of a wiki. Why? He had his role in a pm, why resort to pulling it off another sorce of info?

[Korlash]

This seems to be the only thing really directed at me or about me... Correct me if I missed anythin...

Of the 5 with votes on me, Korlash seemed more townie than the others in the discussions between us.
He has made the most sense in his posts, and I think he's more townlike than the others.
Korlash.... only for the tunnelling, eh!!!

I suppose seeing as how I'm acting I guess I have become a little tunneled now. There's no denying that. I still think this day should have ended two weeks ago...

@kor: I just wish that those who don't share are not killed tonight because that would make their info worthless.

it won't matter... Not enough to really justify worrying about it. And their info isn't worthless, just harder to find. The only info we won't get is if a lurker is killed. And I honestly wouldn't trust any opinions of a lurker very much anyway.

[Korlash]

So in a game built around the theme of DETECTIVES you think we only have one investigation role?

...

Seriously? That is your entire argument? Did tracker or watcher even cross your mind? And as this is a themed game there can be themed roles as well. Hell we may have a "detective" role that does some crazy stuff with these pictures in everyone's pockets or something. saying he is either cop or scum is kinda stupid man...

[Korlash]

Right almost forgot, what about non investigative and non protective roles? Vig, RB, hider, mason, PR giver, etc... you haven't even taken those into consideration have you?

[Korlash]

[quote="Saijin"]Ah so your sure he has a night action then? Thanks for confirming my suspicions.

Odds are in favor of him being scum over a investigative role. I also have a strong negative vibe from that last post yesterday. If it had a different vibe to it I would not of said anything nor voted at all. But it did.[/quoe]

... Uh huh. normally I get pissed off when people twist my words in such an obvious way but in this case I have no idea why you did it. I mean... Seriously... I don't think your scum for it I just think your kinda stupid...

So you are now basing him being scum on your own personal probability system AND from 'vibes' on a post... wow...

So how about the next time you waste my time responding to my posts you actually read them how I wrote them and not how you want them to sound. I like the words I post to say what I meant them to say, not to let you tell me what they say. Thanks in advance.

[Korlash]

I'd like to second that question. I would also like to point out that boiling my entire reason as to why I wason the Fire wagon down to a single post is stupid on your part. Either you are doing a piss poor job of scum hunting as town or you are intentionally missing a lot of stuff to give false scumhunting results as scum.

The post in question shows why I voted him, not why I was on his wagon. As his wagon lasted 2 weeks or so after I voted him they are two completely different subjects and I would appreciate you not mislabeling them.

[Korlash]

No you pretty much can sum why I voted him up in that post more or less, but "seeing it fit to lynch him' along with why I kept my vote on him dealt a lot with, you know, other posts. In fact I was pretty vocal about why I felt he should be lynched yesterday and nothing I said is reflected in my vote post.

I feel it should be pretty obvious why i wanted Fire lynched and yet you failed to mention it. I just think that proves you have a huge hole in your sum hunting process somewhere.

Also you can't mislynch without a wagon... so... I think it's a fair substitution of words.

[Korlash]

Naw Phail should reevalute what he has that makes him think Lind is scum and balance as to how good it is versus how likely he is wrong.

The way i see it either he has a night action result which has a good chance of not proving Lind scum regardless or he is basing this off some gut suspicion or yeterday's actions in which case a case is needed before a claim...

So Phail how sure are you that whatever evidence you have is not only good enough to justify, but will definitely provide us with something useful if and when Lind claims?

[Korlash]

Hershal Agasa, Tracker. last night's track was Kairyuu: who did not target anyone.

I'm curious as to why Gorrad would give you a misspelled character name... interesting... Too bad this is hardly conclusive...

But more to the point, flavor? And why did you track Kair?

[Korlash]

@ Lind: You have no flavor aside from the toys thing?

@ Phail: How in the hell does targeting Kair make you think Lind was scum? Doc, RB, Jailkeep, watcher, vig, none of those entered your mind? He targes someone and there-fore is scum? This is a pretty big mishap on your part if you really are the "tracker."

I'm not leaning either way at this point. Although like SC i'd probably not risk the vig if it comes to a toss up. I still think we can weed out the liar though.

[Korlash]

First things first...

@Korlash: How about you give us that list today, now that you're alive?

I don't do lists, I find them pointless and a waste of time. I will hhowever state it is obvious my top two suspects at this time are Phail and Lind.

On to other things...

Phail doesn't think I am scum because I claimed tracker and he says he's a tracker. He thinks I'm scum because he tracked me, and saw that I targeted both kairyuu, and him. And he claims that due to a drug, he is now a different character.

Funny that he said "someone" targeted him and not you targeted him. It's fairly obvious he did not know you targeted him otherwise he should have said something.

I myself was in a similar situation. In Doctor who I had two abilities. When tracked i assumed the tracker saw them both so I had to make up something quick to explain two targets. However, the tracker only tracked my main "ability" while my second was untrackable. Because of this I was outed due to my stupidly trying to explain two when it was unecessary. The most importatnt detail to remember is I was mafia.

I am a tracker, yes. In fact Kairyuu, did you make a night action last night, or no?

How about since you are on the lynch wagon you tell us what he did and he confirms or denies it.

In my role description PM, when describing my second ability, My PM said (wording change to avoid a modkill), That I crafted a new invention that is so advanced, I don't even know what it does! (exclamation kept, as it was in the PM and I found the whole thing a bit funny) Each night, I can target someone with my top secret toy, that it does not replace my tracking ability (I had to ask the mod about this, to verify, it can be used every night with my ability) and can be used on any living player in the game.

I don't deny your character could use his toys to track, nor do I eny it's possible you can do two actions a night. I do find it hard to believe Igasa would not only invent something he didn't know what it did but also that it is the drug that turned Jimmy to a kid. The drug is experiemental, the holders didn't know what it did, but it sure as hell wasn't Igasa's toy to play with.

It wasn't easy deciding who to test it on, since I had no idea what could happen. I actually thought, at one point, to test it on myself. But I decided to err to the side of caution. That is why I chose madeofphail. Made was a replacement, we had little to go on with him I figured that with a ability that could be either good or bad, it was best to use on someone that I was split on.

You can target yourself? Now your role is just getting rediculus...

There is still the thought in my mind as well that Made may be an SK, and not a Vig.

Both of these scenarios have one thing in common, that we leave him alive and allow the mafia to deal with it. Meaning you might as well be saying you want us to lynch you in this sentence.

What's everyone's thoughts? I can support a lynch on me if we have whatever investigative roles we have investigate Made.

Talk about ironic...

and why did you not claim the double target at the beginning? And you are still sticking to your tracker claim?

Not to answer for him but in a situation like this if his role is real only an idiot claim it all at once. Especially when he had no real reason to claim in the first place.

[Korlash]

EBWOP:

I myself was in a similar situation. In Doctor who I had two abilities. When tracked i assumed the tracker saw them both so I had to make up something quick to explain two targets. However, the tracker only tracked my main "ability" while my second was untrackable. Because of this I was outed due to my stupidly trying to explain two when it was unecessary. The most importatnt detail to remember is I was mafia.

A lot get's mixed up when i cut out to search for an old game thread. I was "scum" not "mafia" more specifically I was the SK. I also wanted to mention that this claim from him tells me that he does at least most probably have two abilities. If he was lying about that it seems like a pretty big gamble for something he could have easily acomplished in some less dangerous way. I'm not saying this is any reason to believe his claim but anyone doubting it should probably try to figure out why he as scum would have two targets last night.

[Korlash]

I still think Lind should claim who he tracked Kair to. Kair can either confirm or deny it if he wants but it's kinda a point of confirmation in Lind's favor and I can't agree to ignore it.

I do find myself agreeing with Bat that the Igasa should be an Inventor, not a tracker. Or you know, a DOCTOR. One or the other... But tracker is starting to make less sense.

base on Gorrad's Deathnote he seems to do a good job of matching abilities to flavor of roles so I do find this nsanely hard to fathom. I find Conan being a vig a little hard to believe but it's a flavor thing that gets plused during anime to mafia configuration so I guess I can accept it.

Anyways my ramblings aside I'm all for voting Lind but I would still like some back and forth so no vote right now.

[Korlash]

LF already claimed that he tracked me to no one. I would rather not say whether he is right or not, because then his scumbuddies will know if I have a power role. I'd rather not die either way.

Where did he claim this? And no, if he claims this you shouldn't say anything.

[Korlash]

Ah I see...

[Korlash]

Korlash: What are you waiting for? Didn't you say earlier that you prefered to lynch and cut the discussion?

There's that twisting of my words again. Is it just me or do none of you like me? What I was arguing yesterday pertained specifically towards Fire. I do not hold that same view towards every lynch. Today is a LOT different from yesterday, the key difference is the fact we are looking at two tracker claims, this means our lynch candidates are 2, not one like it was yesterday. So no, cutting the discussion today is not as helpful nor as good an idea as it was yesterday. Although all this is moot now...

I stick to what I said...

One of them is lying.

So if he doesn't flip scum (although I can't see why this would happen) we should go after Made tomorrow.

Is there anything besides the fact they both claimed tracker that made you come to this conclusion? Or is this just becuase you find it unethical for a mod to put in two trackers?

[Korlash]

and just so no one gets me wrong i don't disagree with the lynch, my stance is fully behind Lind as the lynch, I would just have rather seen Phail's responce to a lot of his new stuff. I mean seriously, we just ended the day without Phail commenting on 675 which were responces I was looking forward too...

*sigh* See if we had just ended the day yesterday we would have had all that extra time to put into TODAY where we needed it...

[Korlash]

Who exactly and what cases specifically? saying some people didn't do stuff doesn't help me...

[Korlash]

Interesting... I can think of only two reasons why Gorrad would institute a mandatory twilight... Especially a strict one...

But seeing as how we have one... how about we use it for something important... Has anyone given any thought to why people have pictures on them?

[Korlash]

Interesting... Wasn't expecting you to be the one left in the dark... What part specifically becuase I was talking about a few things. The twilight thing or the picture thing? If it's the twilight thing then it's kinda self explanitory. If it's the picture thing then I'm talking about the deaths we have seen and why thy are flipping up with pictures on their corpses. (Check out page one or the death scene flavor texts)

[Korlash]

Yes... But the whole crux of the situation is that Lin lied Blatantly because he never mentioned the drug he used UNTIL made said it. It doesn't add up.

He never mentioned the drug at all. if you're going to try a BS attack at least make sure it's accurately presented. Lind claimed as much as he needed when he did. Yeah, he maybe scum backpeddeling but most town in his situation would do the exact same thing. If you want a reference check out Rat Race mafia. The town had a vig mason, the guy claimed mason... He left out the vig part for a reason. No idiot town claims EVERYTHING up front if he doesn't have to. Pretending hyothetically that his role is town the way he claimed does add up. I know you think he is scum, I do too but that doesn't mean we can alter stuff to make him scum and overlook things.

Fire was totally set up IMO but Lindis said something that is totally inconsistent with what made is saying so 1 is lying. Therefore one has to be scum.

What did he say that is inconsistent with what Phail said? I'm still not grasping why one is lying. You are obviously not basing this off the fact they both claimed tracker, so what is it that you are basing this on?

If you didn't want him lynched yet... battou... You could've said so when I asked. You could've unvoted long ago.

And you could have waited and let him say something. You hammered 5 hours after you asked if anyone wanted to add something. You let TWO people post. How do you know Bat wasn't going to say something? You never gave him a chance...

And A lot of people have been trying to prove you wrong. I mean take the fact you hammered before allowing Phail to respon to Lind's newest claim. That's a big piece of info missing. The fact that you are trying to se up future lynches based on inconsistencies you keep failing to specify. And now you just attacked bat for not speaking up in the five hour period you gave him to as if he is somehow at fault for that.

No one is trying to prove the lynch wrong, just the hammer. Don't get those confused...

[Korlash]

Kor: Lindis night acted on 2 people and only said he had acted on 1! then he admits doing both.

*gasp* How did I miss that?!?!

Please, learn some strategy before you play with the big boys. Any town that has two actions is going to shadow one of them in the first claim post especially when there was no reason for him to claim anyways. To use that as a selling point for him being a liar is just stupid when there are so many other good things to use. This is a completely moot point that could have equally come from a town or a scum and you seem to think it's inherently scummy. Yes, it could be backpeddeling scum and it could also be town protecting the interests of the town. Do you have evidence of either? no? Then stop trying to cram it down our throats as the key reason he is scum becuase it proves and suggests nothing.

He is not saying it now is he?

Don't avoid the subject, you blatantly attacked him for not saying it then while it was YOUR fault he wasn't even allowed to say it. Saying it now is pointless, I'm only arguing with you becuase you're giving me reason to suspect you. You need to realise you hammered prematurely and stop trying to blame others for not stopping you.

I don't know man. I'm set on this lynch and no one tried to contradict those who voted lindis because it's a good case. Made's certainty will definetly be scummy if lindis is not scum. And the fact that he is kinda absent.

How is that an inonsistency and why is one of them auto scum if the other is town? Don't avoid answering this again.

I'm gonna be clearer... I CAN stop the lynch before twilight ends (hence the long twilight)... Prove me wrong and I'll stop it.

I knew someone had a twilight ability I just couldn't think of what it was. I would prefere you to stop the lynch so we can get Phail's responces to some of this, provided of course it doesn't end the day in a no lynch and allows us to lynch him gain in a few days. You want reason to stop it, here it is. You say hail is scum if Lind is town, then you better be doing everything today to get the evidence you need for tomorrow. Phail's comments on some of this new stuff could be crucial to that, hell it might even PREVENT a mislynch if Phail is the scum, or heaven forbid they are both town. You are arguing one is scum if the other is town yet you don't give a damn what the other one has to say which goes to show you don't really seem to believe that he has the option of being scum, and if you don't believe what you are saying that makes you... a liar.

If you honestly think Lind is the scum say that, let him be lynched, and let's go to night. But stop calling Phail a fallback guy without evidence and without even TRYING to get that evidence.

[Korlash]

Should I say my name?

Nothing about pictures in my role.

I'm pretty sure i know who you are so you might as well say it. Kinda pointless to out your role and keep your flavor and name hidden. Never been in a game with a govenor so I'll need to look that up. Do you end the day when you use your ability?

Why does made accuse so strongly Lindis for just tracking? Why did Lindis felt necessary to explain he had supplied the injection? Why is lindis not trying to help town once he knew he was dead? Town players would try to help town until they're officially dead.

Your first question here is a pretty good reason why Phail's comments right now would be so important. Only he can answer that. If a town's minor claim doesn't stop his lynch eventually he has to come out with the shadowy details. And he admitted to using a toy, he only assumed he did the injections. it could easily be, as town, he was giving us a possible reason for why it happened.

And tell me exactly how one helps the town once you know you are dead? Unless he knew we had a govenenor what exactly did you xpect him to do?

then poof! dissapeared.

... Lind hasn't disappeared... what are you talking about...

[Korlash]

HA HA! I knew it Gorrad. I freaking new it! jimmy's mom in the setup meant his dad was a scum fakeclaim! You are getting oo predicatble my friend! Too predictable indeed!

I'm kinda lost on what we are looking at here. I predicted Gin and tonic, I mean Vodka as mafia but I can't picture who would be a third. So it's possible they were the only two. I thought the phantom thief kid would be the SK but I thought Kaito was the phantom thief... I'll have to look that up.

Regardless I don't really care either way on massclaim. I think we have pros and cons for both having it and not so... yeah... either way is fine. And I like popcorn although it does seem to lose a bit of flair this late in the game...

[Korlash]

The town's top suspect, not yours. In order for you to call SC the "top suspect" multiple people need to actually suspect him. And it's kinda a stretch to say the town doesn't suspect you when the suggested first claim count is one for SC and one for you. Technically you're tied for most suspicious.

Something I missed before...

I am not opposed to claiming. Name claims for sure would be very nice. Popcorn style or are you going to make a list kairyuu?

why should Kairyuu make a list? And why should the rest of us follow it if he did?

[Korlash]

I suggested my choice. If you dislike it, then propose your own.

No, you tried to counter someone else's suggestion and subtly tried to replace that suggestion with your own. i'd propose my own except for two things. 1 being I don't care if we massclaim or not and thusly dn't care who goes first. 2 being that I'm not up for giving you more chances to fail at manipulating people to replace their suspect with yours.

Who has suspected me? Battousai suggested me because that's "how it works," not because he found me suspicious.

So? Now you're arguing semantics. I'm arguing numbers. You and Sc are tied for the first to claim, you said the first to claim is the most suspicious so thusly you are tied for most suspicious. What part of this are you failing to understand. I'd spell it out but spelling numbers takes too damn long.

[Korlash]

That's complete crap. Show me where I did that. I repeat, I proposed SC as my suggestion, and then disagreed with Battousai's selection method. I have no problem going first, but I would rather have SC be the one, since I think him likely scum.

Sure!

Massclaims generally start with the top suspect in my experience. Considering that all of my suspects are dead except for StrangerCoug, I suggested him. I don't feel the pressing urge to claim first because I am not suspected by the town.

You try to couter his suggestion by saying "massclaims generally start with blah blah blah" infering a preceding line of what is a "common norm" and "acceptable" way to do this. You then took what you said "It starts with the most suspected" and followed up with "all my top suspects are dead except for SC" which subtely puts your suggestion into your counter of Bat's. All in all a pretty worthless point that I only brought up for lack of other things to say but I must say I like how far you've taken it! Also calling my stuff crap isn't going to make it go away. Unlike most people, I've proven my crap works a good portion of the time... ok sometimes... every now and then... >.>

Do you even have any idea what you're arguing? I'm not arguing semantics, as much as I would like to. We have two different situations here.

1. I claimed that the first to claim should be the most suspicious, and I proposed Strangercoug for that purpose.

2. Battousai proposed that the first to claim should be the one who proposed it in the first place, and therefore proposed me.

These two reasons for proposing a first claimant are different. Arguing that differentiating between them is semantics is just ridiculous. If Battousai had proposed me for the same reason as I proposed StrangerCoug, then yes, you would be right. As this is not the case, your point is logically invalid.

The difference between them is a semantic discussion when arguing what I said. You're argument is "The most supect should claim first" thusly regardless of why Bat put you in the running you were tied with SC as the number 1 contender. By your own words "Massclaims generally start with the top suspect in my experience." and by your actions "Considering that all of my suspects are dead except for StrangerCoug, I suggested him." it's clear you believe that who is suggested to claim first is and should be under suspicion. Thusly when you see your name on the list to claim first and not only that but tied for the top spot you shoud logically feel that people find you suspicious. Thusly why you saying town doesn't suspect you doesn't fly with your own belief system, and thusly why Bat's reason's for his suggstion are both irrelevant and symantics. I don't care about his reasons, I care about yours.

Again, another semi stupid point and one I can honestly see why you would be confused about it. I don't see any real info coming from the continual arguing over it so I'm willing to concede you the victory and move on to the massclaim which is far more interesting then you right now anyways.

Huh? So because the scum roleblocker targetted me N1 I must be the SK? What have you been smoking and where can I get some?

You could just as easily be mafia. However Sk fit's better as the kill flavor sounded like mafia N1... at least I think. I should read it again.

Kairyuu: You don't have to be the SK, but it is one way to interpret last night's kill and the lack of one N1. Also, Shiho Miyano sounds like a safeclaim for Akemi Miyano (which would be a decent pick for SK).

I still think the phantom thief is the best chance or SK due to him being the most Sk like in the anime AND that the term "magical" could apply to him. Technically the term "magical" could apply to the drug as well but the mod made it clear the magic kill was not from the mafia and so I find it hard to believe the SK would control the drug.

Well name claims for sure I am ok with.

My name is Rachel Moore.

Battousai? Korlash? Care to join the name claiming?

I can't wait to get to the second half of your claim because either you're scum or I'm wrong... Both of which interest me.

And sure, I can claim. I'm Harley Hartwell. I believe I made one singular breadcrumb this game a while ago. I said something like "My investigating skills are only matched by Jimmy himself" or something like that. I really don't care enough to look for it but I'm just mentioning it so everyone knows.

I'm Sumiko Kobayashi, vanilla townie.

Sajin, you're up.

Can someone who actually knows the story better then me tell me about this character? From what I gathered she is a teacher and a manager to some detective kid... Is that the junior detective league or something else?

Sajin you sound adamant to find out people's name, and then turn on them for doing so.

And you look adamant to not claim when it is clearly your turn...

[Korlash]

The only problem with that theory is that alexhans was Kaito, and alexhans was the one killed by the Magicked flavor.

There's always Toichi Kuroba but I suppose that's a little bit of a stretch for Case Closed mafia... hmmm...

Alright a quick search of Magic and Case closed together brings up a lot more stuff then I thought it would... Most of them revolving around the phantom thief kid. I suppose it is possible he was the cause of his own death...

I have a better idea, as I think at this stage in the game a tactic should be employed.

Anyone who has any investigative roles, should step-forward with a name claim. With only six left, there can't be that many left considering I assume there is is one if not not mafia members amongst us.

Once this has occurred, any one who can protect someone could step forward. That seems slightly more logical, than just name claiming that results to very little inciteful data

Explain to me how outing our power roles is a good idea? And why are you continuing to not claim your name?

Don't you see though, there are six people left. If two of them are scum, are we two more townies die tonight. Scum effectively wins. If you can think up anything that is more useful at tracking scum tell me, unless you are scum and therefore don't like the idea. Outting power roles, is vital during this stage in the game.

... Ok still failed to explain why outing power roles prevents two town from dying. In my experience, outing power roles pretty much assured town dies at night...

@all: Nameclaims tell us nothing. The point of a massclaim is to confirm enough townies for an easy win or to notice a role combo that wins us the game. Simple nameclaims are not gonna do that. Please do as SC and I have and fullclaim. I'm trying to break this game (bringing my total up to 4)

Your continued refusal to claim is bothering me. Only you and Batt haven't nameclaimed. Get to it.

Am I the only one seeing a little bit of contradicting statements here... You say nameclaims tell us nothing but then tell Miller and Bat to get to nameclaiming...

I like nameclaims first, then roleclaims. If scum goes first, it increases the chance to be outted (usually scum would pick a minor role in the theme to avoid a counter).

While I do agree nameclaiming and then roels is the best way, the scum have already proven to have safeclaims and so they aren't just randomly going to pick a minor role...

[Korlash]

I assume by Eva you mean Eva Kadan because it's always good to be vague when claiming... By no means make it easy for us to understand you please...

@Korlash- yes the phatom thief kid, yes also the magic Kaito series. They share many of the same characters.

Yes what? Did I ask you a question? You're confusing me...

[Korlash]

Right because the rest of us that said our full name have been dealt with so harshley...

I'd say after Bat name claims we get flavor in before roles. I still think theres a chance to find the scum through that and not waste whatlittle secrecy we have on a massclaim to help Kair's record books. Besides, i'd love to brak it first on less and never let him live it down.

[Korlash]

Battou the fact that you don't believe I am Doc says a lot...at this stage in the game. Townies start to believe each other even in "false hope".

Did you claim doc? And sayingg that someone should believe a doc claim out of "false hope" and using it to suggest he isn't town is just dumb on your part. I'd have to lower my standards to even argue it it's such a stupid point to make...

The fact that you very much, your own man make me feel you don't want to come up as having a group mentality. Why don't you role claim? No....you must role claim!

Why must he role claim before anyone else?


My Flavor: I have a lot going on for myself with my detective job, but it's not going to be of much help here. I do have a vote though so I should be careful with it.

I will consider that a challenge.

Alright.

[Korlash]

And I'd like flavor from you Miller asap...

[Korlash]

So what does everyone think about the pictures in the death scenes? I think that the first listed person turns into the second listed person if hit with the drug. Does that seem consistent?

That... seems like a pretty good idea... But if it is true then that means Alex was targeted with the drug night two as he was "changed" into Kaito...

[Korlash]

There is a point in a theme game when theme and mechanics get crossed. The drug works in a specific way in the show but it would only work in a 'similar' way in a game of mafia. It has to be changed to fit the way mafia works.

If the drug only worked on the two characters it did in the show then it would be a pretty worthless power for the scum. Especially seeing as how the second character it works on is a vanilla anyways. In order for it to be an effective targeting ability the scum have to be able to use it on everyone, thusly he idea that town turns into the second character is a good idea.

There are other things. Maybe the scum were given the option to simply change Jimmy (and not told who he was for example) This would both be pointless and sorta unneeded. The scum just have to choose between yes and no? What kind of ability is that? Might as well just make Phail's role a self changer after a period of phases.

And of course there is the option Phail's role IS a self changing role that changes after night one and that the scum are given the message that the drug was used or something like that.

When you think about it none of it seems more likely. I really don't get why Lind claimed to be the one to target Phail. It makes no sense. I mean if he is the RB how did he use the drug? And if he didn't use the drug why did he claim after being targeted by a tracker.

[Korlash]

What part of claim shit do you not understand? The claim? That means tell us. The shit? That's your targets and flavor.

[Korlash]

Well, maybe vodka (doubt that as it was the inactive role) or as a group gets to decide to turn a player with the role Jimmy into Conan. Personally, if I was told that I would think since Jimmy worked with the cops and was really respected, he must have a very powerful role and that Conan, though just as smart as Jimmy, had less respect and had to hide his sleuthing ability, would be weaker.

Exactly. If the mod tells you as scum you can change the player who is jimmy into conan you would say yes. Almost everyone would. Only the people who were mod speculating might hesitate. It's a worthless and unneeded ability. It will almost always end in the exact same way, Jimmy being changed to Conan night one. Thus it's a completely worthless power given to the mod that completely screws over the town so why would the mod even do something like that?

In the show the drug changed people to their younger self, so I do not think the same drug that is in the show is in this game as it would, as you say, be worthless. But when Made claimed he was turned into Conan, I think Lin saw an opportunity to look more valuable and to counter the fact that made had counterclaimed him. It is more likely that Agasa would be an inventor and be similar to a jack of all trades, and thus decided to come up with a way to make him look like he can do more than just track. Personally, I think made had a role that would change after using his ability once or after a certain amount of nights.

Yes the drug changed people to their younger selves. Your character, my character, rachel, richard, etc have no youngerselves. To make it mafia playable it simply has to "change people." Theme to mafia wise, it makes sense.

And yeah, the idea that jimmy changes on night one makes sense. But it doesn't explain why Alex flipped Saito, the second name, and not the first. Fire claimed vivian, flipped vivian. Lind claimed agasa, flipped agasa and then CHANGED after he died. Wait didn't Alex Claim Kaito?... weird... Ok forget this it's all worthless...

[Korlash]

I don't think Gorrad is bastardly enough to give someone the role to appear dead...

D3! With six alive, it's four to lynch

Plus he would be lying here...

[Korlash]

Yeah the longer you stall on that miller the quicker you become to being lynched. Even if you are a doctor you've proven you're worthless as two power roles were outed and you failed to even protect one. As a player you are now failing to even answer two simple questions that has been asked of... what three players now? four? So you calim a role you obviously didn't use for the good of the town which makes it almost certain you're lying about it and you have refused to back up your claim wih flavor and targets which makes it more likely you don't have them to back it up.

If you want anyone, well I can't say that... if you want me to believe your claim you have one post left in which to claim flavor before I start pushing for your lynch. Sad as it is I can believe you but your refusal to let me makes me disbelieve you.

[Korlash]

He could only mean you Sajin. His statement was in responce to your:

@miller- if you were a doc, why did madeofphail die? He was a vig, practically confirmed town because of day 2, and the roleblocker was dead. I don't understand. Targets. Now. With explanations preferably.

You were the only person to ask him specifically 'Why did madeofphail die' to which he responded:

why did madeofphail die....because i didn't protect him as totally forgot about him possibly being a town vig. Too busy protecting you

I did not ask him why Phail died and so this could not have been directed at me.

I protected Battousai and Korlash, N1 and N2 respectively

I already claimed Doctor

and Eva Kadan

Have no idea what you mean by flavour

why did you protect us.

And by flavor I mean the other words in your post regarding your character and why you have this ability.

And if you have anything to say on the contradiction of targets I'd put it in your next post as well.

[Korlash]

No. If we just found scum through a lie why shoud we keep claiming? You want to give any remaining scum more info?

[Korlash]

I would like korlash and Batt to role/flavor claim more fully

SC and I have, not sure if Kairyuu has I think so.

Also if your claiming some kind of role I would like your information because you likely die tonight if this suspect is wrong.

I have already flavor claimed and I'm not role claiming until I have to. And if Miller is scum I won't have to today. Bat shouldn't claim either.

Well for one, if we lynch now and it is a mislynch, it could result in a 1 town v 1 mafia v 1 sk (4 v 1 v 1 now, mislynch makes it 3 v 1 v 1, two townie deaths makes it 1 v 1 v 1). Another is that we may not pick up on it again and some people have not went all the way through.

So you know it's 3 mafia and 1 sk then? Funny... Only scum can know that. In death note it was 4 mafia and 1 SK so Gorrad's track record doesn't suggest only 4 scum.

And the only reason we wouldn't pick up on it again is if the game ends... and in that case it won't matter.

Millar needs to flavor claim and both you and me need to role claim yet.

Providing we lynch Miller then it only leaves you and me with potential power roles so I'd rather leave the scum guessing instead of telling them who is what.

[Korlash]

I would like Korlash to claim in his next post. Then Batt in the one after that. I don't think millar will flavor claim ever.

Wow hope you don't hold that ninja against me... ha ha ha...

But seriously, you wont get my claim until Miller flavor claims and in the unlikely event he can explain his contradiction. I'll be glad to claim before Bat though, although I predict that wont happen until tomorrow...

[Korlash]

The fact you used the word "if" in that sentence pretty deflates your whole argument. "If" my info helps i'm going to keep quiet so as to not draw the night kill to myself. "if" it doesn't I'm not claiming because it wouldn't help. So im left with not claiming.

And I'd rather have a live cop becuase it brings in an extra investigation... It's worth the extra unsetteling suspicion upn the cop in order to obtain that extra boost of usefulness... If you know what I mean...

[Korlash]

Better a scummy cop tomorrow then a dead cop tonight. Metephorically speaking of course, the cop was dead a while ago.

[Korlash]

Millar has claimed flavor, what have you deduced from it? Do you think Eva could be a doc? What character would you expect to be a doc?

I do think Eva could be a doc. Out of all the claimed roles only she and rachel sound like roles that I believe could be a doc. I half expected Sajin to claim it honestly. Eva is a lawyer in the anime, you think of lawyers you think of influence, you think of someone close to the judicial system that can set up protection for people, in all honesty I think a lawyer is a better flavor for a doctor then... an actual doctor. This is why I've been so patient with Miller because I know it's highly possible.

Doc of Law

I convince the 5-0 to set up a checkpoint thus no weapons can get thru that night

Once again I'm faced with a situation of something I find hard to believe Gorrad would write. I mean a checkpoint? that's like flavor for widespread protection. Doctor of law makes sense though...

Wait, Gorrad's track record is for more than 4 scum? Then that would mean at least what, 5? Then that would mean 2 alive mafia 1 sk? Then today is lylo. If it's 3 more alive mafia then we would have lost already. I think 5 scum is alot for a 12 player game, don't you think? This is all moot anyways...

Relax, it was only in one game. Don't hyperventalate.... And it's not LYLO. We had two deaths last night not attributed to a townie, meaning we can assume at least two scum groups. That gives the possibility of scum killing each other tonight and so we shouldn't have to worry.

The good thing is at this point the SK would need to target scum just incase there are two left. If he doesn't he loses tomorrow along with town. The scum would also be hunting the SK for that same reason, he would be the last "power role" that could hurt them.

[Korlash]

Mini Theme (###): Carnival Mafia
Playername: Empking
Mistake: Claiming to have mixed up role results to explain a contradiciton
Penalty: Lynched
Result: Flipped scum. Town wins.

confirm vote: millar13

This isn't that game and Miller isn't Empking. It takes more then one example to prove positive a point. Some people are actually idiots and do stupid things. That would be like me using a game in which a palyer used a game to call someone scum and ended up being sum themselves to call you scum. What good is someone else's meta when pushing a vote on Miller? Seriously? Can I SC's meta to lynch Bat? See now I want to try that... *looks at Bat* Hmmm... You play an awful lot differently then SC did when he was town...

[Korlash]

Good point, but that doesn't take away from the tell, and what leads me not to believe millar13 is that it's kind of hard to mix Sajin up with you.

That isn't the tell though. The tell is the fact he claimed doc and claimed to have not protected a claimed power role. That being a huge mistake should have kicked in to him his real target and make him as a player question why he would idiotically protect me over the claimed vig. As that obviously didn't happen... You see where I'm going with this...

I suppose the point I'm trying to make is he has been mistaken too many times to be a real doc now...

I both thought you were town.

So you didn't think the vig was town? Or the governor? You felt me, the guy who pushed for Fire's lynch day 1, was the best choice to protect?

[Korlash]

See by saying that you make me think you claimed to protect us just to garner support from us... *sigh*

And even if we left you alive a town would die seeing as how you fail at being a doctor if you truely are one. So it's not like we are afraid of that...

Hate to reiterate what others have said but I have to put my two cents in as well. Based on the massclaim I would suggest looking at SC and Sajin. Sajin for two reasons, the first being I don't really believe Rachel would be a vanilla role (if anything I felt she would be the best doc) and two Gorrad likes to give fakeclaims a dead town coutnerpart so Richard could easily be hers. (granted nothing is solid) SC for numerous reasons that might or might not change based on what Miller flips.

Subseqently, based on flavor I would suggest SC and Bat. Again nothing solid just my fisrt suspicons.

So anyways does anyone else have anything to say? This lynch is going to happen it seems so why put it off?

[Korlash]

Interesting... Another 24 hour delay twilight... I guess he has to even with the gov dead.

And I commend you Miller on the self hammer if you are scum. Dead either way, good to end the day asap. If you are town however you should probably consider playing another forum based game. Try RaF, or an RPG. You can kill yoruself in those games just as easily without screwing the rest of us over.

[Korlash]

Is that you directed at me personally or the town as a whole? And why make any mistakes at all when you're one of the top two most important roles?

[Korlash]

So that's an admittance of scum then? No town would be worried about a self hammer reason going into his meta file because A) No town should ever suspect he or she will self hammer and B) Only pissed off town self hammer so I would think if you were pissed off you would do anything and everything to never be in that situation again.

Scum on the other hand self hammer for actual reasons, some of which include partner protection, end disscussion, misinformation, etc... I can see why you wouldn't want to explain those.

[Korlash]

I wonder why Kairyuu was killed over the unclaimed, potential power roles. Is it because me or Korlash are scum, or is it that someone was threatened by Kairyuu, or possibly both?

I wonder, why no magic'd N1. Inactivity or on purpose.

Here are some data. Below is the length of each night. Note that N1 and N3 were rather short compared to N2. From this, I gather that either the SK couldn't kill N1 or that the SK chose to kill no one. So, I speculate that the SK would be active during all three nights. The only two people that posted during night on all three nights was myself, and Korlash.

N1: May 6, 12:17am; May 7, 9:24pm
N2: May 14, 11:46pm; May 18, 11:01pm
N3: May 25, 12:14am; May 25, 11:21am

StrangerCoug- N1, N2
Battousai- N1, N2, N3
Korlash- N1, N2, N3
Sajin- N1, N2

If you aren't the scum I speculate Kari was killed becuase he had the least chance of being targeted. Personally seeing yours and my roles I would asume any outsier would peg one of us as a watcher as it's the only common investigative power left and both our roles could theoretically be it. So the sk can't target you or I because it's highly likely we would target each other. So that would be a 50-50 shot of getting caught. So that left his choice to either Kair or the other of SC and Sajin. Then it just comes down to him thinking he has a better shot with kair gone then the other.

If you are the scum killing Kair is obvious becuase I was suspicious of both SC and sajin so if I have watcher then it's possible I could target one of them so killing Kair keeps you protected and keeps me around to both take the fall should you choose to try and mislynch me, and keeps the other unclaimed around to kind of help your status.

Personally I find kair's death to be completely untelling, but that's just me.

And as far as activeness during nights go night one was like one day, day and a half. It's perfectly reasonable for someone to not post onsite for a full two days yet still check in to send in targets. Night two is the longest and we all posted during that time so it's kind of moot. And night 3 could have been shorter due to lack of power roles. I mean vig, joat, two mafia, doc, cop, etc... all dead. Means the nights are going to be hell of a lot shorter. And that night was just a day as well... Easily could have been someone who didn't post.

Now of course you also have to see how many games the other people are in as well. I'm only in this one game right now... During the night I had maybe one other. So my posting is limited on that. Take a guy with 8 games and he's bound to be more active then others, and take someone ONLY in this game he's bound to not post at night. I just think your stats should include that as well.

[quote"Bat"]As I said, either the SK chose not to act (sent in kill no one), wasn't allowed to kill N1, or targetted me and when I was doc protected.[/quote]

Or I have a power role that could have manipulated it in some way. Don't get too carried away in possibly confirming yourself that you miss details like this.

Why wouldn't the SK be allowed to make a kill N1? If anything is forcing on the serial killer, it's that he would HAVE to shoot.

He might not have been an Sk at the time. He could have changed just like Alex and Phail did in their roles...

[Korlash]

Well I can see this game is going to be a bit of a problem to keep up with...

Ok lets see if I can't get something going...

@ Sajin: I'm hoping you get some time in the next 2 or so days to post so maybe you can give us a little input on things. As you can see we seem a little lost for hot topics right now.

@ bat: I understand not wanting to vote right now willy nilly but throwing around Fos here and IGMEOY there isn't going to really accomplish much. And saying there is no need to rush the day and not giving the thread something to go on is kinda a wasted post.

@ SC: If the SK is a smart cookie and can do math a no lynch s going to result in a very predictable fashion. So predictable in fact it is almost worthless to no lynch unless we find it our only option. So are you so afraid of a mislynch you don't want to discuss anything else today, or do you have opinions on the rest of us?

@ Korlash: Your turn buddy.

Ok so first off I'm going to ask what bat thinks about the idea of finishing our claims today. Do you feel it is necessary or helpful at this point? Personally I still don't care either way. I wouldn't mind knowing the other's feeligns on it either.

sadly enough none of our roles are past being possible safeclaims, I could be paired with jimmy, Rachel with Richard, Mcguire with Richard and Jimmy, and SC's... I still have no flippin idea who SC's character is... Does anyone know and/or can explain a little better?

[Korlash]

I'm also a vanilla townie. I'm very disapointed in the number of townie roles in this game especially seeing as how two of our roles were grouped out of existance. However it does increase the odds of only two mafia so I can live with it.

Are you saying that since the SK knows there is probably going to be a no lynch today, we should vote?

No, I'm just saying a no lynch is kinda worthless if the SK knows how to play. If he doesn't then I guess a no lynch might help in some ways so it's not a total waste of time but I still don't think going straight to no lynch right off the bat is the best course of action.

SC's character is a teacher. Since Conan is a child, he has to go to school, and SC is his teacher. The teacher takes an active role with Conan's detective group.

Does she like help them solve cases and stuff or what?

I already put my input in, so I'm just waiting for others to comment/post thoughts on what is what.

You can't tell people not to rush the day and then sit around and wait on them. It makes no sense, and litterally qualifies for the "too townie" argument. You are simply saying somthing that sounds like a protown thing to say without actually doing anything about it, one of those actions don't match what you say things.

[Korlash]

I think Doc protection is the better assumption then an SK no kill. If the Sk didn't kill I would assume it was becuase he couldn't.

The way I see it it's 1 in three, ok 1 in four chance bat is the SK. Both the SK trying to kill him if he isn't and the SK being unable to kill if he is are equally unprovable and possible situations.

If we are to assume Bat is cleared we only hav a 1 in four chance of being wrong while we have a 3 in four chance of cutting the scum pool down. I can live with those odds. I'm not too bent out of shape when scum wins due to faulty doc protection anyways so even if we're wrong about it it's not the worst assumption.

However, the key thing to realize now is that if Bat isn't the SK he is the prime target for tonight. Meaning a no lynch, if it results in town Bat's kill only serves to harm the town by bringing the needed lynch votes down to two.

However the larger assumption is millar correctly giving us targets...

I'm not in the business of assuming town lied to us. 9 times out of 10 they told the truth and that 10th time usually isn't big enough to break the game open. It's pointless to worrry about. it's like worrying about a jester role. It's dumb and only serves to waste time. Miller didn't get his anti-town feelings until after he claimed targets so I see no reason to even suspect he was lying about them.

It kind of helps my being their manager. I'm a big fan of Rampo Edogawa stories, as well.

Yeah and she never puts two and two together. I can read wiki's too but it doesn't help me figure out who she is and what part she actually played.

[Korlash]

No I'm saying that in a 3v1 setup a stupid town doesn't lose us the game, where-as in a 2v1 setup one misvote and the game is over.

And the scum isn't hiding in 3 townies, only two. In the 3v1 setup we are assuming you are town, thus we have the scum pool of a 2v1 with the added accentive of safety that a 3v1 has.

Are you following me? I have been told I am bad with numbers.

[Korlash]

And? What about it? Once we talk about why a no lynch is stupid it gives the scum opprotunity to go against the norm and change everything thus making a no lynch completely unpredicatble and full of wifom.

You being alive tomorrow proves nothing and suggests nothing on it's own. Especially if we are acting on an assuption you are town today.

[Korlash]

Actually, if there is a mafia left then both the mafia member and the SK need to claim. It helps everyone; mafia, SK, and town.

What is with the sudden internet fascination with asking scum to claim? Saying the Mafia and Sk should claim will not ever result in both the SK and mafia claiming. If by some miracle you get one to claim the other won't, and if the first knows this he will never claim as well.

In short, people stop asking scum to claim in endgame situations...

Do you like my idea?

If it gets the scum to claim sure but that wont happen...

[Korlash]

SC didn't flip his position. in fact he made it quite clear twice he didn't feel a mafia existed.

[Korlash]

Kind of hard to put an anti town spin on what I said. I wouldn't argue it as in anyway pro-town, but it's not scummy. Asking stupid questions isn't scummy but it is a complete waste of time, unless you want to argue you felt the rest of us were idiots and you actually thought scum would claim. And of course SC's idea of claiming "not mafia" is borderline on the anti town scale simply because it wastes our time and gains us nothing.

Actually if you really want to argue it what I said kinda helps show I'm town. If I were scum I would be all for the other scum claiming so I wouldn't say what I did. So... how can you call something that shows me to be town anti town?

It's all a waste of time either way and I'm in no way saying this confirms me as town or anything of the sort. And I really don't care if you ask, although yeah I doubt it's going to do anything? I've just been in a recent streak of games with people saying the exact same thing and pushing it. I even had a claimed SK say he was confirmed as the SK because no one counterclaimed. How dumb is that? No real SK will counterclaim the claim of SK, he would just kill the guy at night. Sorry, don't mean to get my games crossed.

So Bat, any comments on the other guys? What about this thing sai brought up? Do you feel SC flipped his position or do you feel Sai is reaching and/or misinterpreting facts? You say you have already put your imput in yet there are still plenty of things for you to comment on.

[Korlash]

It's called looking at both sides of an argument in order to make an informed decision. SC wants to no lynch, it's only logical he would look at the option of two scum left in order to A) Make sure he is making the right decision and B) Try to convince people to join his way of thinking.

[Korlash]

A no lynch isn't auto phail for us in any situation but one with two mafia left and that's impossible as the day is still going.

[Korlash]

Korlash- There is always a chance that scum would claim so that they can plan whether or not to kill. You just gave them reasons on why they should not, that is not protown and is hurtful to the town if the mafia didn't think of it until you said it, and decided not to do it.

Mafia don't need to plan to kill. They only claim if they plan TO BE KILLED. I really don't see where you are going with this, if scum claims they lose. End of story. None of us are newbie enough to think any differently. The odds of one of us claiming scum seems like a 1 in about 80 shot to me, so if you want to call me that 1/80th anti town go ahead. 79 more actions like it and you might have a good point on me.

If you are the last mafia, you don't want to claim first and get killed.

If 'anyone' is the last mafia they don't want to claim first.

Saying it wastes time and arguing against it, is kind of wasting time as well since if we all just claimed Not Mafia as SC said, it could have been all said and done and we could have moved past it by now.

Arguably not true. One could argue that arguing against wastes of time is a good use of time. Either You argue against the waste of time thus bringing it to town's attention and doing your part to stop the spread of the wasted time, or you go with it and could potentially end up wasting more time. All in all I find it a waste of time anyways so you are right.

But while I may be wasting my time arguing with you over this I am not wasting my time in my arguments with SC and Sajin and thusly I'm 2/3s not wasting my time and thusly overall am using the majority of my time wisely. =D

Yes, I put in what I already wanted to say, and I was waiting on people to post their comments so I can reply to it. That was when people weren't posting and I was waiting for replies. If you think I am scummy for saying that and then not posting anything about Sajin's flip argument right away, then say it. Don't subtly say it.

I don't think you are scummy for it. I was simply illustrating my point. A while ago I asked you to comment on others as it didn't match what you were saying about not rushing the day, you said you already put in your input. As I showed with Sajin, just because you put in some input a week ago doesn't mean you can't do more today.

But if you were waiting for people to reply to what you said why did you not ask Sajin for his comments on it? He pretty much ignored what you said and so my point still stands as to why you didn't comment on him.

Could you give us a few of your recent games that people have wanted to make sure there wasn't a sk and mafia at endgame?

It's on another site and if I linked stuff I would be glad to give you place, but I don't. Never have and never will, not really a gaming issue i'm just to lazy to back up stuff I don't find important. Either you can trust me I've been i this situation or you can present some argument as to why I, as scum, would lie about such a thing. Or of course you can surf the web trying to find the site but i wouldn't recommend that...

Sajin- I see what you were saying, going from no lynch and then bringing up the possibility of 2 scum factions left is opposite thinking. But... when you come up with a plan of action, it is best to look at it from different stand points- what can happen. SC has done this, so I think he is more likely trying to be thorough.

This is borderline fence sitting and contradictory in and of itself. Going from no lynch and then bringing up the possibility of 2 scum factions is not opposite thinking. That alone isn't enough to say either way. It can be both the start of opposite thinking or the looking at both sides. In order for it to be opposite thinking SC would have had to actually act in some way upon the idea of 2 scum, he didn't. What he did was pure speculation, and it's a pretty hard thing to define speculation as opposite thinking.

Sajin was completely wrong and near misinterpreting facts, to even suggest half of what he was saying was on the right track is scummy on your part. That's playing into the feud between them.

Glad this game is heating up though...

[Korlash]

how do we have a 90 % chance to hit scum?

[Korlash]

I still don't get your point... something about 90% = 30% through some fractions of things...

[Korlash]

Ok so where are you getting these numbers? I assume 1/3 and 1/4 represents scum to town ratios as in 1 scum in 2 players and 1 scum in 4 but where does 90% come into it?

[Korlash]

Ok let me see if i can get this straight...

and your being seriously anti-probability.

12 total with 4 scum including a role blocker and a SK with 2 kills total?

Tell me how likely you think that is. Some percents please.

I would argue for less than 10%, but forgetting about that small amount is not an option when everybody's life is on the line.

I agree with those odds you posted SC. You do realize its higher odds to randomly lynch scum now.

With a 90 percent chance of hitting a 1/3 or a 1/4.

So what you did here was take the 90% from setup speculation and magically turn it into a 90% of catching scum. No wonder I'm confused. You can't pull V out of a math equation and insert it into physics problem and expect to solve anything... ok well maybe you can but that's not the point...

His 10% and conversely your 90% are in respect to how likely we have 1 scum left. that has nothing to do with out odds of "catching scum today" other then telling us the ratio of town to scum.

So you do not multiple 90% by 1/3 and 1/4, you use the 90% to get the fractions of 1/3 and 1/4 giving our odds today of catching scum to be 1/4 and our odds tomorrow providing a no lynch to be 1/3 making our chance higher tomorrow.

Unless you can honestly say you think we have a 90% chance of catching scum I'm going to have to ask you to redo your thought process and fix your mistake before bringing numbers back into question, ok?

[Korlash]

What matters are the odds. I have concluded that based on kill flavor and night actions and reactions to events that SC is the likeliest to be the SK. There is a point where being through about possibilities just muddies the waters you are searching.

Oh and I would like some more input on this... How does flavor make SC the likeliest SK? And is it Night actions or simply night action, if it is the plural form I would like details on which ones and why, if it is only one perhaps you can do me the favor of telling me which one and why just in case I am mistaken about the one I think.

And what reactions specifically and why?

To me this just seems like one of those times when someone says "I consulted an expert and was told I was right" when in reality all they did was shake a magic 8-ball. It is not obvious to me what you are referring to here and so I cannot be sure you aren't just saying this to try and mislynch SC, so this is all about clearing the waters so to speak. (ha ha ha... It's funny because of the 'muddy the water'... oh forget it... I thought it was funny)

[Korlash]

90 percent chance of their only being 1 scum left out of the 4 of us

so we should nl to 3 people

1/3 chance of catching scum out of the remaining. I fail to see how your getting this confused.

I am confused because you said:

I agree with those odds you posted SC.

You do realize its higher odds to randomly lynch scum now.

Meaning that we have better odds of lynching scum today and not tomorrow which is contradictory to what you just said about no lynching down to three.

[Korlash]

The kill flavor part refers to his role claim being the likeliest to have a magiced kill method. Not that the actual SK claimed the same name that he actually got though. The night action part refers to how the doctor semi cleared was not killed last night.

How does the fact the cleared not being killed implicate SC?

Why are you even considering flavor if you don't believe the SK claimed his real role? You believe it is a fakeclaim yet you still think it matches the kill and thus is the sk?

Reaction to my vote on him. He completely freaked out.

I must have missed it so I'll have to look his reaction up...

How does freaking out over a vote implicate him as scum? This is potentially endgame, any town would freak out over a vote on them. If they are lynched they lose, end of story. I think scum and town are both liable to feel the pressure at this time.

Also he is the first and biggest pusher of the no lynch, I think it would only be natural for him to freak out after any vote on anyone.

I don't really like long posts. Sorry if my shorter posts come across as unclear.

I hate them too... but sadly once I start typing I just cant stop...

No. He was talking about the 10 percent chance of his situation (2 scum) existing. If it was only 10 percent, then the 90 percent chance of it being 1/4 would mean 90% of 1/4 or 22.5 percent. 22.5 percent of victory is greater than 10 percent of prisoneers dilemna going town (I am not going to assume the 1/9 odds here as provided).

But you are still ignoring things. Taking one option of the 109 and putting it next to one option of the 90 isn't fair... Of course something multiplied by 90% is going to be higher then something multiplied by 10. What you are doing there is taking the best case scenario next to the worst and saying it proves the best is the best choice to go without discussion second and third best at all.

22.5% of victory is not greater then 90% of 1/3 which is what he was arguing, that's 30% so it is still better to no lynch. But all this is moot because it ignores the main point and focuses on numbers.

One of the 90% and 10% is wrong, meaning when compared it's all tained with false info. The entire comparison is flawed.

[Korlash]

I'm thinking he meant 3 players over 4...

[Korlash]

Yes... vote count, k thanks bai!

[Korlash]

I'm almost to the point where I just want to vote no lynch to move the game along... Sadly about a billion and a half exaggerated things all sprang up at once so my time is being pulled in all directions which means this game has fell pretty low on my charts...

[Korlash]

GG all... I kinda knew I was going to be NKed which is one reason i didn't vote for the no lynch even though I really wanted to... It kinda seemed like the equivalent of hammering myself.

So Bat, how did you feel when I said one of us had to be a watcher?

Gorrad man I have to say... some aspects of your setup seem to be getting a little too easy to read you know...