Newbie 960 - Game Over

[Equinox]

Hello. I am Equinox.

Vote: mb53

mb53's avatar can decimate entire villages! KILL IT!

[Equinox]

Everyone, I recommend getting an avatar if you don't already have one; it would help us associate posts to names and faces.

[Equinox]

Whoa, L-2 already? What's the rush, mb53?

(For those who are unfamiliar: L-# refers to the number of votes remaining before someone is lynched. In this instance, three people have voted to hang NomDePlume; since an execution on Day 1 requires five votes, NomDePlume is two votes away, L-2, from getting killed.)

It means he wants to know who the complete newbs are, because they can make an easy target for his scum tactics.

Interesting reasoning. However, I can see town doing this to see if andrew94's inexperience would affect his play.

I realize your reasons may be part of the random voting stage, but... L-2?

[Equinox]

Why so jumpy about putting a person at L-2 Equinox?

I recently read through a couple of games that had really quick days. I guess that made me a little "overcautious" about RVS wagons.

Grr, why did you have to ruin it?

Sorry. I wasn't reading through the lines.

Why does Ren refer to herself as multiple people?

They mentioned something about dissociative identity disorder. Hmm... Maybe it's a scummy side and a townie side, bound together in one body?

[Equinox]

Oh, questions. Forgot to add these to the last post.

Do you think that NDP would be quickly hammered?
Do you think that andrew's probable inexperience will affect his play?

1. Hmm... Now that I think about it, it probably wouldn't have happened. If it did, though, I'd say it's more likely than not that newb town would do it rather than newb scum, since jumping on a wagon so early in the day would be, as Kenman and mb53 have stated, quite scummy.

2. If andrew94 has zero experience playing Mafia, definitely. Even if he did all the reading on game play, theory, and strategies, I believe there are things that are learned only by experience, like the wagon I just ruined.

If andrew94 has played on a different site, though, it depends on that site's meta; if it's drastically different, well, his scum hunting tactics would be different -- which would bring new things to the table -- but it could easily be misinterpreted or not quite useful here.

[Equinox]

mb53 was speaking of the question NomDePlume had asked you earlier, which you have already answered.

[Equinox]

Not saying the RVS doesn't have it's uses. For example, since scum were allowed to have a discussion before the game started then you come in to start the RVS we wonder what the chances of Kenman being your scumbuddy is since it seems possible that his vote on you could be scum bussing his partner early.

This is an interesting statement to make. Are you saying that there is a significant correlation between alignment and how quickly someone posts to the main game thread?

[Equinox]

I apologize for being absent from the thread. I tried to change my email address in my profile, but I got pwned by the forum instead. I'm back, and I don't plan on getting KOed again anytime soon.

Incoming wall of text!

Unvote: mb53

Voting Patterns

I totally stole this idea from Sauron, who is doing this in all of his games. This is a spreadsheet that lists all the votes that people have made. It can be accessed here. I'll be updating this for as long as I'm still in the game, and I'll continue it even if I'm dead (i.e., only if I get replaced out will I stop). If there are any mistakes, please don't hesitate to let me know.

Here are our exact notes which explain our thoughts on how the game started: "NDP and Kenman both struck us as suspicious. Just thoughts but since scum were allowed to speak to each other before the game started it seems strange that less than an hour after the game starts NDP votes for Wolf and then Kenman came in around 2 hours later and votes for NDP. Perhaps we are overthinking things but Kenmans vote seemed like scum bussing his partner early. It's still too early in the game to be sure of anything but perhaps time will tell if this information is useful or not."

This is an interesting observation. I've always attributed quick posting and RVS votes to enthusiasm for the game, rather than player alignment. Indeed, if two players have been at it in their special secret thread and suddenly Day 1 opens, they'll be more likely to post faster in the game thread, since they can no longer talk in their own. Of course, this can just be overthinking... which is the point of Mafia.

y do u want more activity, so u can lynch off some inncocent? scummy.....

Lack of activity is the bane of any game, and it's very bad for innocents if there's not enough people talking. Scum thrive on silence and lurking because it's more difficult for them to slip if they're not saying anything.

Oh, a bunch of people already addressed this. Repetition is good.

First you say it's your first game on this website, then you say you haven't played "much" online which would imply that you have played online, then you say you haven't played online mafia.

I'm under the impression we might have a language barrier, so building a case on semantics may not be the best idea...

furthermore, ren do you enjoy repeating questioning then finding a flow/irregularity in my answers? if so i need a lawyer....

Questioning, checking facts, and then attacking any irregularities is an excellent way to hunt scum. It's in your best interests to keep track of what you've said, to not lie, and to be consistent. In a way, we're all lawyers defending our clients (roles).

Never done a RQS before guessing that stands for Random Question Stage? We would be up for this if someone wants to explain how it works and get it started. Seems like it could be a good way to booste activity and get some information.

It's, quite literally, random questions. I've seen ICs and SEs do it. If nobody has started it by the time I get to the end of the thread, I'll do it.

there are a million reason that i should lie, and only 1 is bad

In real life, there are a million reasons to lie.

In Mafia, there's only a few. They might work in some situations, but it's a

very bad

idea for town to lie, for the most part. The reason is that we do not have information when we start the game. We have no idea who is town and who is scum; however, the mafia already know this. If a town player lies about his/her role, s/he denies the rest of the town important information they need to know -- what the setup is, who the mafia are, who to trust -- and helps scum kill innocents. Some players on this site even have a policy to lynch all liars, since only scum would benefit from lying.

Therefore, if you are a town player, it is in your best interests to tell the truth when someone asks.

look ren, i have no way of knowing whether you lied or not in this whole game,

i however know that all humans lie, consciously or not, therefore voting someone that lies is kind a ???? idea

I argue the contrary. There is a way to tell who is lying and who isn't. You can find this out by asking relevant questions and gauging their responses. You can also look to find anything that has been worth lying about so far.

Ren has been talking about Mafia theory and suspicions. As far as I'm concerned, Ren hasn't said anything that's worth lying about, and it's too early in the game to start lying. Ren has simply stated their opinions on RVS and on the actions of two people at the beginning of the thread; since opinions are not fact and are simply the thoughts and positions of someone, we cannot say whether or not an opinion is a lie.

I'm leaving aside the philosophical point of your argument, since that's not game-related, but voting someone who lies has its advantages, which I have stated earlier in the post.

i already said, i cannot find out lies until i ask a question 1 million times and ren answers 1 of them a bit differently

Hmm... This is one way to do it, but this is very difficult to do on a forum where your subject can simply look back at old posts and repeat his/her answer. You don't need to ask a question a million times. You just ask different questions and look at how your subject answers.

Besides, this is what Ren has been doing to you. They are asking you about your online Mafia experience multiple times because you appeared to give a different answer each time. It might just be a language barrier, but Ren still wants to make sure you're not doing something funny with the responses.

there are 'good' lies and 'bad' lies. my 'lie' was considered good.

I'm going to argue something else, since in my point of view, lies are just bad.

There are useful lies and useless lies. Your "lie" was a useless one.

We're trying to find out if it's actually supposed to be a useful lie because that would mean you're scum.

so what if i dont like answering your question? i like avoiding it. can i not? its my first game on this website, why should i reveal my experience and get owned?

Avoiding questions is not something town players should be doing.

Town players need to be willing to answer any and all questions directed at them truthfully. To do otherwise denies us crucial information we need to find who is really scum.

I'm not going to vote andrew94 for the moment because that would put him at L-1. However, andrew94, the pressure remains. We need to get straight answers from you regarding all the questions and points I've illustrated above and all those the other people have asked.

Lastly, this is gold.

Ren

might

be busing andrew, considering this:

if you're gonna continueing to attack me ren, i might as well tell the truth later

I am reading that as: if you bring me down, I'll bring you down with me by admitting we are scum.

This is a very good observation. What's your take on this, Ren and andrew94?

It is a very bad idea to lie at this point.

Remember this well.

---

Since nobody has posed any "random" questions, I'll do a few. Feel free to volunteer new questions. I'll answer my own questions and any others as soon as everyone is done answering, and I'll also talk about my motivations behind each question; I don't want to influence anyone by doing this prematurely.

None of this "what s/he said" stuff, please. I want your personal answer.

1. What is your primary language?

2. Have you had any experience with Mafia outside of this website? It can be real-life Mafia, IRC Mafia, forum Mafia, anything Mafia- or Werewolves-related.

3. Do you feel Mafia theory has any place in scum hunting? Why or why not?

4. Should town players ever lie? Why or why not?

5. What is your preferred method of scum hunting? Why? (If this is your first time playing Mafia, I don't expect you to answer this question as thoroughly as everyone else, but I'd still like to hear your thoughts.)

6. What do you think about fence-sitters, the people who don't have a position either way? Is it an anti-town thing to do? Why or why not?

7. This question is very important. It must be answered. Coca-Cola or Pepsi?

[Equinox]

One more thing... I just spotted this while checking my spreadsheet.

other webiste never cared thats y, they dont ask 'huh whats ur experience'.

Man, aren't you inconsistent? You've gone between "I've never played online Mafia before" to "I've played on this other website, and they didn't care." That's as scummy as the moss-filled pond on campus.

In fact, I'll quote and link.

also, i play mafia the card version be4 with my frds, not really much online

Link.

no, i havent played online mafia.
yes, i have play real life mafia ( 6 ppl)

is that what u were asking

Link.

nah, ' i havent played online mafia'--- on this webiste

Link.

its my first game on this website, why should i reveal my experience and get owned?
[...]
other webiste never cared thats y, they dont ask 'huh whats ur experience'.

Link.

It looks to me as though Ren used your tactic of "asking a question one million times" against you. Why would you lie about something like this, which isn't even related to this game?

---

Vote Count
Day 1; 9 alive, 5 to lynch

andrew94 (3) - Titiboo, Ren, mb53
NomDePlume (2) - Kenman, wolframnhart
Ren (1) - NomDePlume

Yet to vote (3) - andrew94, Memnon, Equinox

[

[Equinox]

3. Do you feel Mafia theory has any place in scum hunting? Why or why not?

I probably should have used a wiki link instead of a forum link... Here's the category wiki for various theories.

Someone questioned this in one of my games, and I thought I should bring it here for some discussion. Some people like to look for contradictions in what people are saying, some people like to analyze the things people say, and others go on gut. I guess theory would play at least some part in all three (or maybe more I've missed), but I wanted to see how much people rely on theory -- how things are supposed to work -- and how much they rely on other things like practical experience, anecdotal stuff, etc.

Shoot. I don't know if I'm making sense. xD

[Equinox]

You won't know our role for sure until we are either lynched or NKed and you can choose to either believe us or not but we promise if we are lying about our role this game we will perma-ban ourselves from ever playing mafia in any form again.

Whoa! Look at that appeal to emotion. This appears to be an overreaction to andrew94's strong assertions that Ren has been lying. Noted.

7. Neither because they are both bad for you. Water is the best drink ever.

I think I love you.

I don't claim to know what are reliable scumtells and what are not but my experience of three games has

inconsistency as an unreliable tell

.

Oh, sweet irony.

I'm currently not on the andrew94 bandwagon, but I'm leaning scum because andrew94 has stated he fears getting owned, presumably because of expectations given his experience. It could be as you say, that he is town and just nervous that we'd hold him up to some higher standard. On the other hand, town players have no reason to fear getting knocked over senseless and then lynched; only scum need fear that, though many newbie town players hold self-preservation as a priority. Hmm...

I also fear andrew94 may have as-yet-unknown motivation to lie, given all the philosophical spiel about how everyone lies and it's near impossible to tell lies and truths apart. I will need to see further posts from him before I can make any further judgments, though.

Okay, I don't think I ever popped in recently, but I just happened to randomly vote someone I'm comfortable keeping my vote on for now. So I'm gonna keep my vote on andrew94 for a while, until someone else comes up.

Titiboo, no comments about the random questions or the cases against andrew94?

[Equinox]

Also, the RQS stage is pointless unless just trying to get to know someone. In my experience, it has never lead to tells.

Getting to know someone in a game can be important, even if only minimally so. One can figure out if there's a language barrier, if someone's more likely to exhibit newbie tells, or if someone is used to a drastically different meta, which would affect the way they hunt scum. So far it's done the job.

But yeah, no tells either way. It's more for ice-breaking... and a license to use whatever they say now against them later if they appear scummy.

Note away but we haven't lied about anything and we meant what we said.

Unfortunately, the only way I can completely be sold on this is after the game is over when all the roles are revealed. The reason I'm not so trusting is I've done it before, so I'm just keeping my bases covered.

anyways, what does every1 think about the guy that had to go to work

Well, people sometimes have to leave for real-life issues, so I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.

---

I think everyone who is willing to participate in RQS has already done so, so it's time for me to reveal my answers and motivations.

1. What is your primary language?
2. Have you had any experience with Mafia outside of this website? It can be real-life Mafia, IRC Mafia, forum Mafia, anything Mafia- or Werewolves-related.
3. Do you feel Mafia theory has any place in scum hunting? Why or why not?
4. Should town players ever lie? Why or why not?
5. What is your preferred method of scum hunting? Why? (If this is your first time playing Mafia, I don't expect you to answer this question as thoroughly as everyone else, but I'd still like to hear your thoughts.)
6. What do you think about fence-sitters, the people who don't have a position either way? Is it an anti-town thing to do? Why or why not?
7. This question is very important. It must be answered. Coca-Cola or Pepsi?

1. English.

2. My MafiaScum games are in my wiki; otherwise, I've been playing on IRC for the past couple of years. They use a lot of PRs over there, so the meta is drastically different.

3. Scum are aware of the theories as well, but I still think we can refer to them when we're hunting scum. Even though theory may be based on ideal situations or whatnot, it's still grounded in past events and evidence, and scum often slip in similar ways; that's how the theories were made.

4. Where I came from, townies often claimed PRs and vice versa to save themselves and other PRs. Sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't. I say this because I think this is what andrew94 meant when he said there are reasons why town can and should lie. His experience may have suggested that town do so to protect their PRs and themselves. I wish he had elaborated when someone confronted him about it, but since he didn't say it, I figured I would.

In a semi-open setup like this, though, where we might not have PRs at all, it would be detrimental if a town player claimed a PR, since town would end up relying on information that wasn't even true. It would be equally bad for a PR to claim town, too, since it would be that much more difficult for the PR to make his/her case later when it's actually needed (e.g., cop claims town, then town might choose to not believe cop when there's an investigation result). A town player may play deceptively -- placing a vote on someone s/he doesn't truly suspect, for instance -- but they shouldn't lie outright.

I'm on the fence for open setups, though.

5. Since I tend to fence-sit in the beginning when there's not much to go on, I don't find initial fence-sitting to be scummy. Fence-sitting after the early stages of Day 1, when everyone has chimed in and there are cases to be picked apart, would be worrisome, though, and I won't hesitate to call people out on it.

6. ...Coca-Cola tastes better.

As for the reasons I picked these questions...

1. I am the kind of person who would pick on semantics. Sure, both town and scum slip up when they say things, but I like reading into word and sentence choices. I wanted to make sure that, if I ended up targeting someone on the basis of something they said, it wasn't due to unfamiliarity with the language. (I would have asked this even if andrew94 was not playing, so I didn't ask this to give him an out.)

2. If someone is from a different site/channel, they're probably going to use their experience there while scum hunting here, so some practices they use might not necessarily be scummy; it's just what they're used to doing. This might be used as an excuse crutch as well, so I wanted to know their answer to this question in the event they use it to explain their actions later.

3. I asked this mainly out of curiosity, since I've seen people object to it. I also wanted to know if we had players who were more inclined to use gut than reasoning/theory, since I've seen those as well.

4. This ties into #2, though andrew94's insistence on lying influenced my asking the question. If anyone else thought lying was a good idea, I wanted to know that, too.

5. In hindsight, this might not have been a very good question to ask, but it can be used all the same. I expect the newbies to change their tactics as the game goes on and they get more experience, but it shouldn't be too drastic of a change... because then there's the issue of inconsistency. Are you changing your tactic because you're scum and you suddenly realized that you're painting yourself into a corner? Or are you just newbie town, learning the ropes?

6. Heh. I did steal the question from Netopalis. This was for kicks and giggles.

I see a few people have differing opinions on town lying and fence-sitters. Good stuff. It looks like this game is going to become interesting pretty quickly.

[Equinox]

Considering andrew94 hasn't yet come to answer any of our questions when he's in the habit of responding to them, I wonder what good voting him would do.

Why are you going for the policy lynch? Is it because andrew94 is town, or is it because andrew94 is scum?

[Equinox]

im a hindrance? what have u done apaprt from ur graphics calculator

Mainly because you've shown you have no problems with lying. If you're town, lying can make us lose. If you're mafia, well, you just need to die.

mb53 has made a case against you; Memnon, Ren, and I have questions regarding your responses to my RQS. I suggest reading the thread and answering those.

[Equinox]

pls post those questions again, i must have skipped through them

Please pay attention. You need to read what people are saying. You will not find any mafia by skimming.

I will post the questions again. However, if you continue to show me that you are not reading, I will have to lynch you.

there are 'good' lies and 'bad' lies. my 'lie' was considered good.

Considered by whom?

i also notice that most posts you make include a quote from someone else. so what if i want to go to sleep? can i not? so what if i dont like answering your question? i like avoiding it. can i not? its my first game on this website, why should i reveal my experience and get owned?

What is this? You practically blew up. There is no need to get all worried and defensive this early in the game. Does that mean you have something to hide?

2. Have you had any experience with Mafia outside of this website? It can be real-life Mafia, IRC Mafia, forum Mafia, anything Mafia- or Werewolves-related.
other forum mafia, but extremely different playing style- firstly, every1 bullshits and theres way more ppl in a game, i am not used to this new website, where ren immeditely wants to know about my experience. i mean wth.. i dont want my experience known....

Why do you not want your experience known?

4. Should town players ever lie? Why or why not?
errr think about it yourself, there are plenty of occasions were townies lie

Like what? If you really are town you don't need to lie about anything.

ren, i dont want to say anything unnesseccary YET

Please explain what you mean here.

anyways, what does every1 think about the guy that had to go to work

Well, people sometimes have to leave for real-life issues, so I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.

however I will

FoS Andrew

because I don't like the fact he is being non-forthcoming with info about his experience, it is a simple question that he could easily give an answer to, and his odd question about me needing to work seems more like a deflection question to get attention off himself.

[Equinox]

Good luck and I hope everything goes well, wolframnhart.

our objective is to lynch scum not lynch anti-town townies.

However, anti-town players can be detrimental if allowed to survive to LyLo. It's not likely we'll run into that problem, but it's still something to consider.

Titiboo last posted on Sunday. It might be a real V/LA. I guess we'll see following the prod.

[Equinox]

he lies are considered good by myself because i had something to hide- my experience
in other games, i notice the most pro ppl get pwned first and 2nd nights, so im not wanting to be too pro.

Now I see what you mean by "pwned." Dying on this site isn't really a bad thing as long as you leave information for the other townies. Find who you think is scum, say why you think they're scum, and push for their lynch. Accuse multiple people if you believe more than one player is suspicious. That way, if you die, we will be able to use your analysis to get scum.

cops and doctors and vigiliantes lie about their role

It's true that cops and doctors don't just say what they are when anybody asks, but they shouldn't lie. You don't have to answer questions about your role if they are sudden, mainly because we don't have reasons to ask you unless you are about to be lynched.

im just thinking its sus that that guy had to go to work, so making discussion

People have lives. What's so suspicious about it?

[Equinox]

andrew94, you're being very defensive. Are the questions offending you? If they are, how are they offending you? What kinds of questions would you rather answer?

if i dont answer someones question, they gonna be like 'LURKER, anti town guy etc pls answer question or we lynch u etc'.

It's not just answering questions. As townie, you will also need to read other people's posts carefully and look for inconsistencies, slips, etc. Your #1 job is to find the mafia. Answering questions is secondary (but still important).

and ur 3rd thing is conflicting ' you dont saty ur role, but u dont lie' i find it hard to accomplise this unless i dont answer, then ur gonna be like 'oi dont skim through pages, anti town'

We rarely ask you for your role, so there is no need to lie. When somebody does ask and you feel there is no reason to, you can ask them why they're asking you for your role. Also, if someone just asked you for your role, and there's no reason to do so, other people will jump in and ask them as well (like what mb53 did when you demanded Ren's role).

I accused you of skimming because you could not have missed the questions we were asking you unless you weren't reading. There were too many; you should have seen at least one. When you asked me to post the questions again, I knew that you skimmed through the thread, and you weren't going to read through the thread to look for the questions. That tells me you're not paying attention, which is anti-town.

it only makes me shady and untrustworthy is because the only questions are directed at me.

If we were happy with your responses, we would have stopped asking the questions. We keep asking you because we feel you're being "shady and untrustworthy," and we want you to show us we can trust you.

The questions are a way to show us you are town. No matter how aggressive we're being with them, we are asking you because we want to be able to trust you and move on with the game.

i played 5 games, happy?

See? That wasn't so bad.

i was just trying to get some discussion going on,.

So you did not find him suspicious; you just wanted to generate discussion? Were you trying to get the questions away from you?

---

andrew94: I will not ask you any more questions after this post, so please answer the ones I've asked you in this post to the best of your ability. I want you to show me you are town.

Game-wise, I feel this serial questioning of andrew94 is distracting, and given the level of participation, it's alienating other players. We can always lynch him later if we feel he's acting like scum. In the meantime, I'd like to move on. We'll get better results faster that way.

Ren: Leaving andrew94 aside, who else do you think is acting scummy?

Memnon: What do you think of NomDePlume's case against Titiboo?

[Equinox]

errr every1 is just questioning me there are NO SLIPS.

Of course you would say there are no slips. However, whether or not you have made any slips is not for you to determine; it's for everyone else to find.

I think it is pretty weak, seeing as Titiboo has posted a total of 5 times, and never more than 2 lines or so, but therein lies the problem. He is lurking a LOT. Or is he just not coming back? I hope not. Then we will need three replacements.

Titiboo has been lurking up until his last post. It might be a newb tell, though, since it could just be that the game is overwhelming and he's trying to get his bearings before jumping into the fray.

If you all continue to bombard Andrew with questions to the exclusion of looking at anyone else we'll end up lynching Andrew simply because we don't have another option - not because he's the best choice.

Heh. I've been tunneling him with the questions because I wanted to get some detailed responses out of him, but he's getting more and more defensive and guarded with his answers. Those responses are interesting. Now that you've mentioned it, it might be the other site's meta. He's mentioned that "everyone lies," so there would be reason to hide things. On the other hand, he could just be perceiving all the questions as harassment and is therefore giving us an emotional response in return. Either way, I agree, no more questions.

Logically speaking, his responses are a null tell, but my gut keeps saying there's something wrong with the defensiveness. I think I need to take a step back and let it all settle before I finally make a determination.

I still find andrew suspicious, and will be watching him like I would watch someone I am voting for.

What do you think of his latest responses? Has all the questioning been helpful or harmful to our main objective of getting scum?

---

Okay, so I finally got around to putting all the RQS responses together and then looking at them. I should have done this first thing instead of going off on a wild

scum

goose chase. xD

I suck at writing open-ended questions, so assume all the yes/no questions have an accompanying tag question.

6. What do you think about fence-sitters, the people who don't have a position either way? Is it an anti-town thing to do? Why or why not?

6. Yes, it is anti-town. They don't help discussion along very much. I tend to watch those people a bit more.

I agree here, though sometimes it can move discussion along pretty well. If other players start talking about the fence-sitting itself, then fingers can point and votes can fly... or at least I can dream of such a scenario happening.

Do you think fence-sitting is more of a play style or more a newb/null/scum tell?

5. What is your preferred method of scum hunting? Why?

Our favorite method of scumhunting is at the end of the game when there is more information to work with such as in our last game scum got caught because of a combination of scum fakeclaiming cop and a massclaim won the game for town due to setup analysis.

Hmm... massclaim. When do you think is the right time to massclaim? When it's time to claim, should it be done in a particular order, or should everyone just claim as they go?

5. I jump around a lot (as you can already see by the spread sheet). That is just how I find scum. I also look for contradictions a lot.

Do you feel more scum are caught through pressure (voting, FoSes), or through questioning and analyses?

[Equinox]

what i meant was because all you are asking is questions, it is very hard to find YOUR slips

It's true that if all I'm doing is asking questions, then it's very difficult to find slips. It's not impossible, though. Look at the kinds of questions I'm asking and ask yourself if it's something the mafia might ask. Remember, the mafia need to confuse the town, so the questions scum will ask are different than those town will ask.

Hmm... since there's nobody else here, I'll ask you one so we can get some discussion going.

Who do you think is mafia?

[Equinox]

It looks like we might need four replacements now. If Titiboo comes back, we'll need three.

I think we have at least one scum somewhere in the sea of replacements. I don't like picking out likely scum when we have only half a game to work with, so no specific suspects.

Equinox, because she is leading the entire thread, and I'm uncomfortable having to rely on one person.

I'm uncomfortable with watching activity level drop, though it looks like we're getting somewhere now. Do you think it would be better for town if I stepped back and let someone else take the stand?

My other suspect would be Ren. The whole tunneling on Andrew to the exclusion of everyone else has been hampering us, when I asked for an explanation of Andrew's scummy intentions he unvoted without explaining them but then continued the one-dimensional attack.

I think Ren is attacking andrew94 for the same reason I've been doing it. Judging from Ren's response to RQS, they like to probe for information, and andrew94 hasn't been providing any despite answering the questions. I'd like to hear from them directly on this point, though, particularly the unvote.

...you know, it would be hilarious if it turned out andrew94 + Ren were a scum team.

Just a thought.

[Equinox]

EBWOP:

I hope everything works out for you, mb53. Good luck!

[Equinox]

Welcome, I Am Innocent and Sotty7. Let's get this game back up and running.

[Equinox]

Equinox because she seems to be still fence sitting, pushing on Andrew while making excuses for his behavior and for how she is encouraging useless theory discussion in post 161. Equinox needs to post thoughts on the players ASAP.

I will admit to staying on the fence regarding andrew94's behavior. Some of the wording he's used suggests he's trying to hide something, but I cannot push a case based on that without considering the possibility that his guard can be linked to off-site meta.

I chose to ask those theory questions because that's where my RQS questions happened to be, and I was working off those. I thought it would be weird to ask questions in RQS, get responses, and then never address them again. Since we're getting some discussion now (hopefully), I suppose those questions are unnecessary now.

I'll post my thoughts as soon as I get a full player list to work with. I couldn't analyze half of the players due to lack of content (and not necessarily low post count). I've mentioned before that I believe there is at least one scum among the replacers; I'll return to that assessment when I hear more from I Am Innocent and whomever replaces mb53.

[Equinox]

I gave up the case on andrew a while ago, I just didn't formally state said event. Also I haven't taken my vote off him yet cuz there is nowhere to move it yet.

You could unvote.

[Equinox]

I'm giving short responses because I'm still reading. I'll post something more substantial later.

Is it legal to communicate from the grave through your spreadsheet with us ? What is the reason you are providing us with this spreadsheet ?

I've mentioned in all the games in which I'm doing this that I'll continue the spreadsheet even if I'm dead. Now that you mention it, I should send PMs asking if that's okay... I'll go do that.

I'm making the spreadsheet for my own reference. I thought I might as well share it. I can't misrepresent anything on the spreadsheet anyway, since anyone can cross-reference it with the moderator's vote counts and their own tallies.

[Equinox]

Why not post thoughts on the players that are here and worry about the others when they finally post? This sounds like stalling. If you think there is scum among the replacers, who and why? Come on, get your hands dirty already. Sitting back and asking theory questions isn't helping this game move forward at all.

I was thinking of probability when I said I thought scum would be among the replacements. With four replacements needed, chances are there's one mafia among them.

I'm stalling because I don't like working with half a game. Lynch me for that if you will, but I think scum would be a bit more eager to push rather than sit back. There are plenty of cases to piggy back right now.

Is it legal to communicate from the grave through your spreadsheet with us ?

I got a "no" from one of the moderators, so I'll do the same thing here.

Spreadsheet

If I'm dead, spreadsheet dies with me.

---

Now that I've done a run through...

I'm tempted to call a Ren + andrew94 team based on their interaction, since it looks like distancing taken a bit too far. Both of them have been tunneling each other to the exclusion of all else.

I've defended andrew94's defensiveness before, but I can't deny that he appears to be hiding something.

Sotty7, I Am Innocent, and ToG appear to be fine, so my initial statement that one of the replacers is scum might not apply. Of course, we still need to hear from Titiboo's slot. Leaning town for NomDePlume.

Not sure what the obsession with Memnon's graphing calculator is. Sure, it's as bad as a dice vote, but scum could just as easily make up some reason during RVS as town. Not significant.

Null on Memnon. It looks like a bunch of newb tells to me, rather than scum tells.

I'll admit all that makes it look like I'm fence-sitting. Ugh.

---

We will still try to get on to post when we can but we will be really busy with work every day till monday and then things should go back to normal.

Ren last posted on Friday, and they'd previously hinted at limited access until today.

Requesting prod of Ren if they don't post by Tuesday afternoon.

what i meant was because all you are asking is questions, it is very hard to find YOUR slips

andrew94 last posted on Saturday with no indication of V/LA.

Requesting prod of andrew94.

[Equinox]

EBWOP:

I'm going insane. Today

is

Tuesday.

Just plain

requesting prod of Ren

. Thanks!

[Equinox]

andrew94, please use NAMES. I don't know what the hell you're talking about if you keep talking about "that guy" or "this guy."

so basically, your still fence sitting? telling the mod to pod ppl is a way of not getting off the middle of the fence? correct me if i am wrong

No. I'm asking the mod to prod people because I want to hear from them, and they haven't posted in 48-72 hours.

This group consists of Lurkers, Tunnelers, or Fencesitters, and that will be where my focus is in the short term.

And all of them (except me and andrew94) have voted andrew94. Coincidence?

[Equinox]

[theory]

1.It is a possibility for the cop to tell which townie he has investigated last night. Then if the cop gets lynched for some reason we are still able to retrieve this information.

The cop will have his/her own town-scum list to work with. We also don't have cops going "public" here because of the possibility of a mafia roleblocker. Cops go public when they have a guilty result or when they're about to get lynched. If s/he dies, we can just do as I Am Innocent says; we look at the cop in ISO and look at who s/he ignored or backed.

2. It gives the Doc a better overview, or if we don't have a doc it is harder for scum to false claim Doc later. If we put up a Town-Scum List we are giving the Doc an number of People he can choose from to protect. If his choices don't match with the Town Scum list we can ask him about his reasons.

Posting the town-scum list actually creates the need for the doctor to use it. Without the list, the doctor will still look for the obvious townies or the most aggressive scum hunters and save them.

3. If we lynch a scum player we can hopefully see a connection between him and his scum-buddy. If I were scum I would mostly try to ignore my scum-buddy and don't put him on any list. Or make any comments about his play style.

I don't see what relation this has to your list, but I definitely agree with the "connection" part you state here. The scum won't necessarily ignore his/her scum buddy, though.

4. It generates a lot of content we are able to talk about. But this we will also get from most Scum player.

We can do the same thing without listing townies. Point at someone you think is scum and accuse them. That gets conversations going, assuming your target isn't lurking.

[/theory]

You always have to consider the possibility that we don't have any power roles at all. For all we know, this setup could be 7 townies.

Will start voting as soon as everyone posts their top scum players.

...don't you have your own top scum? You don't have to wait for approval from the rest of us.

---

I feel like Humpty Dumpty. I keep tipping back and forth. Eventually I'll fall off the wall... and then you lot won't be able to put me back together again.

I'm starting to think andrew94 is a favorite scum wagon. Granted, I'm not sure of my read on him, but it looks like scum would be voting for him, bussing or otherwise. That means I need to take a closer look at Memnon, Ren, and Titiboo.

I'm still in favor of policy lynching if we don't get anything else. andrew94 in LyLo would not be a favorable situation to be in, and scum would never kill him... assuming he's town.

[Equinox]

I want to know why Ren has lied about age, especially after telling Andrew that "A townie has no reason to lie about anything".

Please reference the post where Ren contradicted themselves. I'm having trouble finding it.

4. The creation of the Spreadsheet while nice. Is in my opinion a scummy thing to do. It is only collecting Information that is already available. By saying that you will even do it if you get lynched just screams out "I AM TOWN". Because clearly scum would not further update this list. A little bit too loud for me, town player should not post "I am Town...".

Are you serious?

I'm too townie to actually be town? Heh. I should try this one when I'm scum.

I volunteered to update it after death because I thought it would suck if I let it die just because I was out of the game. I didn't think for one second that it could be illegal. It was purely an honor thing.

Please explain why you changed your sentence ?

Yeah, the wording's different. I don't know why.

Also, it's against site rules to cite ongoing games. Please don't do that again.

1. You are in this game since the beginning and your only vote was a random vote.

2. You get pressured for not voting anyone and head out for the player that was under the most pressure. Yet you still don't vote.

I don't throw votes willy-nilly. I'll participate in RVS for lulz, but otherwise I hold 'em close until I have an actual use for them.

I found the person being pressured worth pressuring. Got a problem?

I don't think you really believe even half the things you're saying in that post. That's not necessarily scummy, since this is your first game and you might be misreading town, scum, and null tells, but realize that if I think you're purposefully padding a fake case, you're done.

[Equinox]

EBWOP:

I want to know why Ren has lied about age, especially after telling Andrew that "A townie has no reason to lie about anything".

Please reference the post where Ren contradicted themselves. I'm having trouble finding it.

I found it. It wasn't in Ren's ISO, which was why I had trouble.

@Ren in 909 Post 161 you say that you are 19, here you say that you are 21. That means that you life on a planet that rotates 6 times as fast as earth. Why do you lie about your location ?

Here's the post in question. Now I'm interested in Ren's answer to this as well, even if it's not game-related.

NomDePlume, did you check ToG's citation, or did you just take his word for it?

[Equinox]

I am not saying that you appear too townie. I am saying that you write out "I am town". For me its the same thing as someone just plainly stating "oh btw I am town". Wouldn't that sound suspicious to you ?

If they actually just made a post out of the blue saying, "I am town," yes, I would be suspicious.

I still fail to see what the problem is with the spreadsheet is, though. I'm not implying I'm town by doing that. I'm just providing something that I'm already making for others' convenience, and I did not expect people to actually place any interpretations on that action.

Ok I will never cite anything from an ongoing game again. Are we still able to discuss this here ? Or do we have to forget everything about it ?

It's better if we don't. If you're reading ongoing games for meta, you can. You're just not allowed to talk about those games specifically. You've already walked on dangerous ground by using those quotes.

The reason I refuse to elaborate further on the issue you've brought up is because I'd violate site rules by talking about them. I'll be free to talk however much we both would like once those games are over.

At the moment you are my most suspicious player. I will try to further pressure you. If you don't like that start telling us why you choose to pressure Andrew94.

I'm perfectly fine with pressure. I just don't like the reasoning you've used to conclude that "Equinox is scummy." From my perspective, it's faulty logic, and I think you only used it because there was no other evidence of me being scummy or someone else being scummy. For all I knew, you could have been scum trying to push a flimsy case.

I'll explain why I chose to question andrew94. andrew94 was providing very guarded answers to questions, so I wanted to probe further. Probing further resulted in responses that were even more guarded, and andrew94 became more and more defensive. That set off alarm bells. At some point I thought the defensiveness was most likely due to his perception that he was being harassed, so I ceased questioning.

The way he's guarding his answers and the way he's been very defensive -- lashing out at anyone who questions him, attempting to deflect attention off himself to others, sometimes outright refusing to answer certain questions that didn't warrant refusal -- as well as his lack of attention to anything else in the thread that does not directly pertain to him has me reading him as,

at best

, slightly scummy. If he's town, I do not want him making decisions for my faction in LyLo, and I figure, from experience, that he will never be NKed.

I Am Innocent's list of votes has me thinking that scum would be on the andrew94 wagon because it's a very easy lynch for Day 1, and anyone would be able to claim that they did not want inattention or indecisiveness in LyLo. That does not reduce my suspicion of andrew94; it merely motivates me to look again at Memnon, Ren, and Titiboo.

Sometimes, the most obvious and easiest target is scum.

Not sure I like this last line though from Equinox. I see it as trying to intimidate a newbie who is actually doing some scumhunting.

ToG is doing scum hunting, yes. I just didn't like how his case looked; it looked to me like a house built out of old Popsicle sticks without glue. I've already stated that might be because telling tells apart takes a bit more experience. I chose to put that disclaimer/threat there in case he was actually scum trying to build a fake case. I was probably a bit too aggressive with that comment, though, so I'll acknowledge that my last paragraph could have done without it.

So how about instead of trying to scare the newer players with OMGUS threats, how about scumhunt for a change?

Titiboo is AWOL.

Ren is AWOL.

andrew94 is MIA, but I've already promised never to question him again because he will not answer anything asked to my satisfaction.

I'll get back to you when the people I really want to question are here. Interpret that as stalling if you want.

[Equinox]

i just havent posted for 20 hours and im MIA? is that missing?
and yes, in previous games, there is ONLY ONE possible set of roles. in this, there might not even be any power roles and ppl can just bullshit and no1 coounter claims due to not even having THAT role.

also, you are still fence sitting equalix.

and ren is my top suspect.

1. You don't answer anything. You're as good as missing.

2. You don't just sit back and let them claim. You read their posts. You look at their claim. You think about how plausible it is that they really are what they're saying they are. If you have any doubts, you challenge them. You don't have to be a cop to challenge a cop claim.

3. I'm still fence-sitting. Sue me.

4. Here, copy paste this and you're all set:

Code: Select all

[B]Vote: Ren[/B]

Or, if you're so inclined, change the "Ren" to "Equinox." Change it to anything you want.

Five days away. Do you really think we have time to stall and not focus on the players that are here?

I don't find them scummy. Are you asking me to point at a town read and then accuse them of something I think they're not?

So everyone, please vote now for the person you are most willing to lynch. If you have been using your vote to create pressure but it is not on the person you are most willing to lynch, please move it.

Vote: andrew94

L-1

I know I'm going to take tons of heat for that. Screw it. I'm going for a policy lynch. This town is clearly going to lynch someone who hasn't been scum hunting, even if it's not a real scum tell. I'd rather go for someone who has refused to answer questions, tried multiple times to deflect, and has explicitly stated that there are no problems with lying, than go for someone who is not even here to answer anything I'd ask.

[Equinox]

EBWOP: I haven't been paying attention to vote counts, and my spreadsheet was not updated. >_>

andrew94 is at L-2, not L-1.

[Equinox]

Or L-3, as I can't seem to subtract properly.

[Equinox]

I honestly cannot wait to see your reaction when I flip.

She also slaps an Andrew vote down after calling his wagon a “favorite scum wagon” She is far and away the scummiest player right now.

I also said in that same paragraph that this did not immediately make andrew94 town. If I were his scum buddy, I'd have bussed him. He could cost me the game.

[Equinox]

A little more I could add to that.

She also slaps an Andrew vote down after calling his wagon a “favorite scum wagon” She is far and away the scummiest player right now.

Do you really think Equiscum would immediately vote andrew94 after clearly claiming scum would bus him?

[Equinox]

I honestly cannot wait to see your reaction when I flip.

This post sounds doesn't sound town to me.
I think it could be the word honestly... Are you saying that you are not always honest with us or why are you stating here that you "honestly" cannot wait to see her reaction ?

I honestly cannot wait to see her reaction when I flip. I meant what I said, and I said what I meant.

You did manage to miss the motivation behind one question. Could you please explain the the meaning behind:

6. What do you think about fence-sitters, the people who don't have a position either way? Is it an anti-town thing to do? Why or why not?

My mistake. I asked to gauge people's opinions on fence-sitters. I'll let you judge for yourself whether that reason is for town or scum purposes.

I did get responses from different directions, which I thought was interesting; I expected almost unanimous contempt for the practice, but I think at least one person said it wasn't a scum tell, and a few others said it was anti-town.

The secondary purpose behind that question is a license to use those responses in the event someone acts contrary to how they've responded in Day 1. If someone who normally didn't have an issue with fence-sitting suddenly decided to build an entire case against another player based on that player's indecision, I will use their RQS response against them. Nasty, perhaps, but everything that is posted in this thread is fair game.

[Equinox]

So you're telling me he's your buddy here? What?

You were telling me that I was pushing for a "scum loved wagon." That sounded like you were trying to say andrew94 is town. andrew94 is not necessarily town just because scum is willing to vote him. I'm telling you I'd do that as scum because that's what I think scum are doing -- bussing him. It's undeniably easy to do right now.

I realize you're frustrated at my lack of scum hunting, but there's a reason I haven't. I've gotten town reads from all of the more active players, so there's not much I can do there until someone slips.

I want to question Ren about his tunneling of andrew94, but he's not here. Even if I knew what to do with Titiboo, I can't do anything until there's a replacement. I don't know what I want to ask of Memnon because there's nothing to ask, at all.

Well, I guess if I have nothing to ask, I'll just do this. I have absolutely nothing to lose at this point. Memnon, make up your own questions or something. Your posts leave me no room to question you. Easy wagon be damned.

Unvote. Vote: Memnon

---

...I thought of this while typing up the above. Feel free to read it as an appeal to emotion; it's not like I can control how you read it. This is just what's going on in my mind, and this is what I want to say.

I think I know what's getting me angry in this game. It's all certainties and absolutes in here. Black or white. No, you can't speculate in the grey because that's scummy. No, you can't wait for the color to change because that's scummy.

I'm standing in a grey pool of paint. I feel like I have to either get my prints all over the brand new white paint job on the floor, or I have to continue sitting there in that grey area. I refuse to make up cases against town reads just because a few people are angry that I won't do it. Therefore, I will continue to stand in that grey area until I find that nook I missed, even if that gets me lynched. A town read cannot be a scum read.

It's frustrating me to no end that I can't tell if all this pressure is scummy or if I'm just getting an OMGUS reaction. It's frustrating me to no end that the only way I know how to make my position on things any less ambiguous is blocked.

Ugh. I'm too emotional at the moment. I'll come back in a bit once I calm down and can think more rationally. I don't think "a bit" will kill anyone.

[Equinox]

Okay. One bout of pillow punching later...

(Sotty7: I noticed you responded while I was typing this up... I'll read it and address it in the next post.)

I bring you a rational case behind Memnon, who is alive and kicking. Actually, Memnon isn't "kicking" at the moment.

PBPA wall incoming. Lots of fluff. Conclusion at the end.

Post 8: Memnon uses a graphing calculator to come up with RVS. I've seen newbie town do this, so it's not necessarily a scummy tell. I can see why people are wary of this, though. A random vote like this, despite being an RVS vote, does not require any amount of responsibility behind it. Whereas someone can attack a weird RVS reason, there's nothing to attack if "the dice said so" or "the graphing calculator said so."
Post 59: Memnon appears to prefer RQS, but he doesn't volunteer any questions because he's busy. Memnon also attacks andrew94's attack against Ren's request for more activity. (What a mouthful.) Interesting that Memnon uses sarcasm to attack andrew94... even though I've been doing that for the past couple of days. Anyway, that's noted.
Post 60: Memnon is trying to find scum, yet he also will not try to prevent a townie lynch... wait, what? And how did I not see this before?
Post 93: I'll agree with Memnon that andrew94's response was really bad. It's interesting Memnon did not actually question andrew94 about that post, unlike Equinox, mb53, and Ren, but just plain accused him. Memnon also advocates for a policy lynch but does not do anything to get it moving. (It's worth noting that andrew94 was at L-2 at the time, so that might be why.) Since we're all fans of overreading, this may be connected to Memnon's RVS vote earlier.
Post 94: A slight push for RQS. Meh.
Post 98: Memnon clarifies that he did not want a quick lynch, only a policy lynch. He appears to just want to lynch andrew94 because of his anti-town behavior... something I support, if we don't find someone scummier (like, you know, me). Memnon begins his interrogation of andrew94. I see no issues with the questions, but I'm reading Memnon in ISO so I don't know if there are other influences.
Post 103: Memnon responds to my RQs. I think I've already addressed everything I needed to with RQs, so nothing here. Next post is an EBWOP, so I won't include it.
Post 115: Memnon cedes andrew94's issues may be due to a language barrier, and he questions andrew94 a bit further about his

guarded

responses to my RQs.
Post 131: I think I see the problem with this vote now. Voting andrew94 was not going to spark discussion, unless Memnon expected people to accuse him of scum going for an easy lynch. He also states he's going for the policy lynch.
Post 134: Memnon further explains his policy lynch. I don't find anything wrong with the reasons, mainly because I already agree with them. Eh. Scum could be making this up, but I know I'm not, so... it's a null tell.
Post 138: Memnon challenges andrew94 to find what Memnon has done thus far. I'll answer the question: vote in RVS, push for RQS, answer RQs, push for a policy lynch, and then vote andrew94. I feel like a hypocrite for saying this, but... uh, that's not a whole lot.
Post 141: Memnon restates that he doesn't feel andrew94 is town or scum, but he wants andrew94 lynched because he's acting anti-town. Yeah, the definition of a policy lynch, which... I still agree with! Urgh. Memnon says he'll move his vote when he finds a better target. I'm not sure if he believed that initially or after NomDePlume pressured him.
Post 164: Memnon attempts to get discussion moving by asking for top 2 suspects from everyone else. Scum's motivation for doing this would be to look at everyone's top 2 then jump on one. Town's motivation for doing this would be to... get discussion moving. I'm running in circles. Anyway, Memnon did post his top 2, so there's less of a problem. He finds me scummy because I was leading (???) and Titiboo because he was lurkerish. Zero mention of andrew94, so Memnon believes andrew94 is town or just left him off the top 2. Weird.
Post 169: Stalls with me. Um, doesn't really answer my question, but he says he attacked me rather than a lurker because I was actually active. Fair 'nuff. And then Memnon piggy backs my defense of Ren. Bah.
Post 171: Fluff.
Post 184: Memnon gave up on andrew94 a while ago and for some reason didn't announce it. Sort of odd, but I can see that happening to anyone, so I won't press this.
Post 186: Unvoted by request.
Post 187: "Back to square one." I will have to assume Memnon purged his top 2 suspects list, since this implies Memnon has gone back to the initial state of zero suspects.
Post 189: Explained about this first thing in this wall.
Post 215: FLUFF. Well, Memnon claims RL busy, and I dislike using RL as any part of a scum case, so... yeah. Nothing here.

In summary, my issues with Memnon would be:

1. Memnon might have been trying to avoid responsibility by using a graphing calculator in RVS, and he defends this action as "random." I feel this is more of a newb tell than a scum tell, since this would be Memnon's first time with RVS, but it's worth noting because he does this again when he proposes a policy lynch on andrew94. L-1 would put enough pressure on andrew94 to get him to act, which would be good, yet Memnon avoids doing it. This hands-off policy regarding responsibility is interesting.

2. Memnon's statement in post 60 is weird. I want an explanation.

3. Memnon has backtracked more than once behind the scenes, and this is only revealed after he's pressured or after he says something to that effect. I wonder why he isn't being vocal about moving his suspicions around.

Not definitely scummy, but I want these addressed. Vote stays.

Time to read Sotty7's post and respond to it.

[Equinox]

But I really don't understand your Memnon vote, you don't explain it very well at all. I also don't understand your back and forthing on Andrew. So take a chill pill and then when you come back, start by trying to explain your thoughts there and actually building a case on Memnon.

Memnon case is posted above.

I keep going back and forth on andrew94 because I don't know what to make of his responses.

1. The interrogation was really a vicious cycle. We asked andrew94 because we didn't like what he was saying. He didn't like our questions, so he became defensive. We didn't like his defensiveness or his guarded answers, so we lugged even more questions at him.

2. I think this vicious cycle has andrew94 thinking we're harassing him. Things like:

furthermore, ren do you enjoy repeating questioning then finding a flow/irregularity in my answers? if so i need a lawyer....

p.s. think on the good sides of my ireegularities before jumping out like a lion pouncing on a deer

so what if i dont like answering your question? i like avoiding it. can i not?

i am not used to this new website, where ren immeditely wants to know about my experience. i mean wth.. i dont want my experience known....

it is because at that moment only me and ren were posting so he was focussing his whole attention on me, quoting everything i said, picking bones in eggs.

it only makes me shady and untrustworthy is because the only questions are directed at me.

errr every1 is just questioning me there are NO SLIPS.

...makes me think that andrew94 feels uncomfortable with the interrogation. It's possible that andrew94-scum is acting in this manner to get the questions off him, but I can't get rid of the feeling that andrew94-town might answer the same way due to feeling OMGUS towards his interrogators.

That's why I requested a few days earlier that we hold off on the andrew94 situation until later.

3. I later advocated the policy lynch because, at that point in time, I didn't have anyone else I wanted to lynch. I was also getting annoyed with his constant inattention to the game unless it directly pertained to him, and he wasn't saying anything about any players other than the two who'd been questioning him the most (further leading to my harassment theory above).

OMGUS reaction may be a newb tell, but it can also be a scum tell, and andrew94 seemed to focus only on whatever was connected to him unless he wanted to deflect attention off himself. He did not talk about any of the cases posed against others. That did, and does, not look good.

Hmm... I have a better case against andrew94 than Memnon. Meh. They're my Top 2 right now, so it doesn't matter to me what order I take.

[Equinox]

now, i find ren extremely sus cos hes just lurking while equionix well.... is just posting a lot of things to defend himself. i strongly suspect ren is scum or

equinox and memnon wolf pair

WOLF PAIR?!

andrew94, please do me a favor and read this post. I don't care if you skip the bottom part, but at least look at the first 6-7 lines.

We're using one of those four setups.

yes,i am uncomforable with teh interrogation cos i dont have the chance to retort and find some wolves; especially random people liek memnono just adding in.

Just because we're throwing tons and tons of questions at you doesn't mean you can't find who's scum.

ren

Copy this:

Code: Select all

[B]Vote: Ren[/B]

---

If you thought that a good answer would be if each player contempts(yay new word) fence-sitting why did you not further ask Ren about her answer ?

It wasn't that I thought it would be a good answer; I just thought it would be how everyone answered. I didn't feel the need to address Ren's response.

I just don't understand your motivation behind it if you don't follow it up by questions.

I did follow up with questions, but apparently it's not the right time to discuss theory, so I won't.

You knew at that moment that you were going to fence sit. So this reads to me as that you were already preparing an Omgus attack.

A townie reason other than protecting yourself is not readable at the moment for me.

I knew I was going to fence-sit because that's exactly how I play the beginning of Day 1. I don't fence-sit so much after that.

I am preparing attacks, but they are not necessarily OMGUS. I will attack anyone who is playing contrary to how they've answered the RQs. Scum might change tactics often to find what works.

[Equinox]

Your cases against me are all pretty good, I don't know how to answer them.

If you're town, they don't have good cases against you. They're just

wrong

.

Prove to us somehow that we're wrong. Answering questions is not the only way to do that.

Graphing calculator: Yeah, pretty stupid on my part. All I can attribute that to is a noobish wariness of RVS.

Fair enough. It's a common mistake.

Andrew was trying to say that it was scummy that you were trying to lynch some innocent townie. I was saying that there is nothing wrong with that as long as we are trying to find scum. Scumhunting comes first, safety of innocent townies comes after.

Yes, scum hunting comes first, but do not do that at the expense of innocents. Chances are we are going to lynch a townie today; it's probability. However, if someone is pushing a lynch on someone you think is innocent, you should be defending that townie as well as pushing for someone you believe to be scummy. It's better to lynch scum, after all.

3) As for not saying when my suspicions moved around, the problem with that is that whenever I lost my suspicion for some person, there was not really anyone else to be suspicious of. So I thought it was better for the moment to keep my vote on someone I had already declared my suspicions of than to put baseless votes on other people.

I don't have a problem with moving suspicions around in general, but you're not voicing your movements. It's confusing, and it makes it easier for Memscum to blend in.

[Equinox]

I learned something while sniffing around the site, and it was related to Ren's case. I decided to wait and let Ren answer ToG's and NomDePlume's questions. It's been 48 hours since Ren's prod and they haven't responded, so I will assume Ren can't get back into the game. I'm going to post in Ren's defense.

If it helps you can think of us as a 1 player hydra.

A hydra account is used by multiple players. For example, Memnon and I might make an account called Memnox; both of us will be able to access that account, and the two of us play as one person, "Memnox."

What Ren is saying here is they are one person with two personalities in one account ("one-player hydra"), rather than two different players in a traditional hydra. Personality A would be the 19-year old Ren that ToG spotted in Newbie 909. Personality B would be the 21-year old Ren that we saw in this game.

I hope this clears up the issue regarding Ren's conflicting answers. Now we can resume using game-relevant information to hunt Ren down.

[Equinox]

Your Response for Ren is invalid as it is something personal that only she can answer.

True, but my purpose was not to completely null the suspicion on Ren. It was to explain a possibility based on what they have already posted about themselves.

So I would summarize the intention of your post as:"I do meta reads"

Do you think there is a problem with using meta reads?

But I agree with you that this Age-lie is not a valid point to vote Ren. But it would still interest me as to why she did lie.

...except I was trying to say that it

wasn't

a lie. In the traditional sense, anyway.

With dissociative identity disorder, the person has multiple personalities. Each personality sees, thinks, feels, and

is

different. They are, effectively, different people.

Whether or not Ren actually has this disorder is something only Ren can answer, but I can infer things about their play style. If they are playing as if they have multiple personalities, they will act as though there are two different people.

The Ren you saw in Newbie 909 was 19 years old.

The Ren we saw here in Newbie 960 would be a

different

Ren, who is 21.

It's possible that both Rens are in this game. It just so happened that the 19-year old Ren answered the "How old are you?" question in 909 and the 21-year old Ren answered the "How old are you?" question in 960.

[Equinox]

No I think using meta reads is something only town would do as scum already knows who town/scum is and as I already explained I summarize the intend of your post as:"I do meta reads" which is for me the equal thing as someone saying "I am town" and this still sounds suspicious to me. I just think about what your intent was to tell the Town as you posted this sentence.

I am lazy. I generally do not do meta reads unless it's something critical like a lynch-or-lose (LyLo) situation. Besides, meta can be pretty useless. Once a player is aware of how they play as town and as scum, they will change their play style accordingly. I use whatever is in the game because that is how they are currently playing, which is relevant.

I took exception to Ren because I had to look up the "lie" you were talking about. Conveniently enough, you gave me the game and the post number, which was how I was able to link it previously. I did not have to actively search for Ren's meta.

This is going to seem like OMGUS, but I'm getting really concerned about your tendency to read

way

too much into the things I'm saying. Not everything is going to be black and white. Not everything has to be complicated. Sometimes, I'm saying the things I'm saying because that's what I think, not because I'm trying to say, "I am town!"

I don't expect you to answer the following question, but I want you to think about this:

Do you think Equinox is scummy, or are you trying to find out if Equinox is scummy?

This can make a difference in how you're reading the things I'm saying.

[Equinox]

If Ren had lied, it would have been scummy. The point I was trying to make was

Ren was not lying

.

andrew94, votes do not count if you do not do them properly. Read the rules, please.

Lying about your experience

is

scummy. You could be hiding behind lack of experience to act however you want as scum, and we wouldn't be able to tell because "you're new."

andrew94, why do you think Ren is scum? Answer this and I might rethink my case on you.

[Equinox]

It's not for you to make Ren's defense, Ren should do that herself. How do you know Ren was not lying? DID seems a convenient excuse for Ren to contradict herself with no repercussions, is that acceptable to you?

That is a good point. I don't know if Ren is lying about having DID, but I do know the age discrepancy is connected to that. I only posted that defense because I believed Ren was not coming back. I'd have preferred Ren to do it themselves, since I could compare what I had to their response. It's been 48 hours since inHimshallibe sent Ren a prod, and Ren hasn't posted; I could only assume Ren isn't going to post at all.

I wouldn't say there are "no repercussions." DID is not a crutch. Suddenly 180ing on a case, for example, would still elicit suspicion. Ren is, after all, a "one-player hydra," not an actual hydra, and I'd think the two personalities have a place to reconcile at the very least.

The only thing I would overlook would be minor stuff like the age thing we've been discussing. Everything else is fair game, even for a real hydra.

[Equinox]

i think ren is scum because she keeps asking me lots of questions and making every1 join in, making it extremely hard for me to look for wolves.
she then lurks when we are accusing her.

Ren did not make the rest of us question you. Your responses did.

I think Ren is not lurking but is actually gone, but I can't be sure until the moderator says something.

equinox is scum because he/she randomly defends ren, how do u know whats really going on?

I only defended Ren's age discrepancy. I am not defending any of Ren's other actions. I will let Ren's replacement do that.

also, i think we should also focus on the replacements since all they are doing is asking questions again

Don't ask other people to focus on the replacements.

You

should be doing the scum hunting.

You

should be the one asking questions. Your question to me was a good first step.

[Equinox]

O_o

That has got to be the funniest reaction I have ever seen. andrew94 is town.

Vote count has me on andrew94 at the moment, so...

Unvote, Vote: Memnon

[Equinox]

I'm answering on my mobile right now, so I'll only answer what directly pertains to me or what's worth noting for the moment. I'll address everything else once I have some real copying and pasting capability.

Andrew, I have been saying you are probably town for a long while now, in fact since I replaced in. Are you even reading the thread in it's totality?

andrew94 has shown repeatedly that he doesn't, which was why I was willing to lynch him in the first place. That lynch can wait, though, since it looks like he's started pointing fingers. We might not need a policy lynch after all.

Okay so Equinox's case on Memnon isn't too bad. He certainly is pretty scummy at this point in the game. I do have a question for you though Equinox. Did you do your iso on Memnon before or after you decided to vote him? If after, what made you move your vote there in the first place?

I did a quick isolation read when I tried to find questions for him but couldn't, hence the vote. Isolated again for PBPA.

[Equinox]

I realize English isn't your native language, so I will TRY to be patient.

I said you are town.

I also said you do not read the thread completely. You have shown me repeatedly that you do not read the thread.

I did not say you are not town. I still think you are town. I'm pretty sure you're town. You're not reacting like a mafia would.

[Equinox]

Would it be possible to summarize or link your case against me, or what you have a problem with? I've let this go far too long.

Why did you let people post cases against you for that long?

I also recommend looking for those cases yourself. 12 pages of walls isn't pleasant, but it goes a long way towards your defense when you know the context of when things happened, and you'll be able to see your own posts in perspective.

i notice equinox is also useing the words 'poliocy lynch'

It's a common phrase. "Policy lynch" means hanging someone who will hurt the town later on, even if they are not mafia.

[Equinox]

Triple posting because I forgot a couple of things.

Replacement for Titiboo is coming! Huzzah! \o/

We need to lynch by Wednesday, folks. FYI, Memnon is at L-2.

[Equinox]

Are you aware who your unvote was for?

Yes. It didn't register in the pre-laundry vote count (and I voted Memnon prior to the vote count I referenced), so I did it again.

Memnon, that post was from before Memorial Day weekend. Ren's gone.

[Equinox]

I wasn't confused by the moderator's vote count. I just didn't want to point out the error. Now you've forced me to.

[Equinox]

Hi Skill006! I knows you from somewheres!

Welcome, iamkingdavid! Hoping to hear from you.

I hope the moving goes smoothly, inHimshallibe!

[Equinox]

Short response now, longer response later.

2) Defense of Ren's DID, lie concerning her age was just off

Came out of nowhere, amirite?

3) 2 Non RVS votes were for Andrew/Memnon. Easy wagons to join?

Everyone else was AWOL or town. Did you, too, expect me to point at someone I thought was town and then make up a case? This is why I dislike trying to work with half a game. It screws up my reads and then I'm just in hot water for it.

Oh, yeah, we're not in half a game anymore, so I'll look at the other posts later. I'm just responding to this now.

4b) Her iso post 33 shows she also initially marked Andrew at L-1, when he was in fact at L-3. How does one make that big a mistake?

My spreadsheet had him at L-1 because I neglected to update it for a couple of pages, and I didn't bother to search for vote counts because I thought I updated it. YEAH, IT'S A SCUM TELL.

My advice, put a vote/pressure on the player you think is most scummy or you need answers from.

Here is a clue how it is done:

If your intent was to pressure me, don't say so. Say I'm scum. You probably already knew that.

Unvote

I know someone out there is going to call me out for that unvote, but screw it. I'll just join a HARDER wagon on a townie just so you people will stop saying easy wagons is a scum tell. SOMETIMES, easy wagons happen to be scum! [/rage]

Seriously, though, I really need to look at the more recent posts. >_>

[Equinox]

Happy birthday, Memnon!

Hmm... Day 1 really is a crapshoot. Well, if you guys think I'm scum for stalling or whatnot, I won't rage over that (anymore) mainly because chances were a town would get lynched anyway. Go for it, and a flip will settle the matter. I'll still be waiting for your reactions, though. Keke.

There were four people on the wagon that I can recall, in order: Titiboo (an RVS vote subsequently reaffirmed), Ren, Mb53 (ToG) and Memnon.

...and me.

I can understand this reaction in this case, but I don't think changing your suspicions without telling anyone is scummy.

It's scummy because scum will do a lot of changes of heart with no apparent reason. Setting up a trail for your suspicions helps us track it and see if you've been changing your suspicions to go with the flow.

I like Memnon's post there, particularly the analysis. Good job. Confirming the unvote now.

Back to stalling and all that good stuff. Actually, more like doing more isolation reads. ;D

[Equinox]

Not sure what you are asking here? Are you referring to my suspicion?

No, I'm referring to my defense of Ren. I'm acknowledging that it came out of the blue.

NDP will tell you the game we played together, two Vanilla Townie roles were claimed as well as the Doctor DAY 1! Absolutely ridiculous.

*facepalm*

I'm going to go look up that game. I'm interested in how that played out.

If I do, andrew will ask me how I know and say it must be because I am like the 5th member of the scum team.

XD XD XD

Oh...so you're from

that

kind of website XD

?

I'm only on page 7, I'll finish the rest tonight (after exams).

Good luck on your exams!

[Equinox]

No, I'm not done reading. I'm just responding to this. I've been gone for most of the day, so I'm not stalling or anything (!) -- I just don't have anything yet because I didn't get the time to do it.

Disclaimer: This is a theory post rather than a scum-hunting post. Sorry! I'll get to that second part.

For now I am happy with my Equinox vote. I'm becoming aware that she seems to float where ever the breeze is blowing. Andrew is scum, oh wait he's town, oh wait he's anti-town. Menmon is scum, no wait his last posts where townie like. I don't remember her making a stance that hasn't already been made by someone right before, accept maybe her defense of Ren and the DID.

...

andrew94 is town. I'm pretty damn sure. He is also acting like a VI. VI == anti-town, but not necessarily scum. Thanks for playing.

I

thought

Memnon was scum. His analysis there made me think otherwise. Apparently someone else thought so too and sniped me, so OBVIOUSLY I am piggy-backing. FML. -_-

Please don't tell me you ever write anyone off as town....

Not for the whole game, I don't. I just don't see them as a person to lynch for this game day at the moment I'm posting. I do agree that no one is confirmed until one of those three scenarios you listed occur.

So instead of saying you don't want to build a case on someone you think is town (which should be no one), why not find things scummy about people and compile a case against them.

I said this because, at those particular times, I found nothing scummy about the active people, and I had nothing on the AWOL people. No case == anti-town == OMFG SCUM MUST DIE.

I'm going to go all-out this time, though. I'm pissed enough to do it. If I'm going to get myself lynched today, I might as well go down in a grand show of fireworks. \o/

I'm not liking the tone of this paragraph... we still have a week and with your verb tense ("chances were") you're acting like the day's over and we're going in the wrong direction.
And I find that last bit as a sort of hidden appeal to emotion. That's not acceptable.

I wasn't aware of the deadline extension when I was writing that. (Yep, I don't pay much attention here... kinda diverted elsewhere at the moment.)

Oh, they

are

going in the wrong direction. I know so!

It's not a hidden AtE. It is an AtE. Well, I wasn't purposefully doing it to get them to back down; it was just an emotional outburst, plain and simple. Prone to doing that as scum and as town, even off-site. (I know meta doesn't mean anything, but I'm putting that out there anyway.)

A townie can act in an anti-town/scummy manner. Scummy is not only used to describe scum themselves, but also to describe anti-town actions.

Interesting you say this. The way I've been using it, "anti-town" just means harmful to the town and not necessarily a scum tell... I can see why you say it's "scummy," though, since anything harmful to the town would, in 99% of cases, be helpful to scum. (The other 1% is just neutral! )

I'm not sure what the case is yet either... I"ll have to read back through all that to figure it out, but from what I can tell, at least for some people, it's based on Ren's lack of activity or something.

In summary, it's Ren's tunneling on andrew94, some inconsistency, and the lurking. I think it's established the lurking is due to V/LA, though, rather than an active refusal to participate.

New players (trying to catch up on the thread) aside, there is little reason to not have a current vote out there on someone.

Old players trying to reread the thread is also a reason not to have a current vote on someone. After all, newbie games are notorious for "accidental" hammers... and I don't want anyone lynched before I'm done.

An unvote = no pressure. No pressure allows mafia to lay low. And worse yet, they can blend in and not leave a voting trail themselves.

Not necessarily. An unvote is also a voting trail. Someone who keeps unvoting -coughlikemecough- is also suspicious because they could be wagon-hopping; someone who doesn't have a vote for long periods of time are also suspicious. These two sample cases, of course, require further examination before a case can be made, but their unvote or nonvote are still a good place to start.

Are you saying that my vote does not cause any pressure because I am considering Equinox for a lynch???

I'm hijacking this question because my name is in it.

Your vote is causing pressure. It's an Equinox wagon. That gets me raging, which gets me moving, which gets me... doing stuff. I'll admit, though, that if yours was the sole vote, I'd have just shrugged because you said it was a pressure vote. (To go further on this point, I rage more at Sotty7's vote than your vote because Sotty7's sounds more genuine.)

To answer the question, actually considering me for a lynch does cause pressure. I don't think that's what iamkingdavid meant when he said your vote lost some of the pressure you meant to exert. That pressure was lost as soon as you uttered the words "pressure vote" anywhere close to that vote.

[Equinox]

Dodging a prod request here.

I'm still reading through the thread and building a wall of notes. It'll be coming very, very soon. Hopin' to finish by tonight, but realistically, it'll be tomorrow.

[Equinox]

Ooh, congratulations, imkingdavid!

Send in your night actions early if you think you might miss Night 1... probably won't, though.

[Equinox]

All right, so I'm rereading the game thread...

I am writing this as I go as if I'm replacing in, so it's going to be one very large wall of notes. My main purpose for posting this is to explain my thought process, and I'm hoping this will at least partially explain my adamant refusal to make cases previously. If, after this, you feel I'm still scummy, feel free to string me up; I won't stop you then, since I'll have already done my best here. All I ask is that you try again and hit scum in my absence.

Since I am rereading, I'm treating this as a first-time read. Well, as best as I can anyway, seeing as I probably wouldn't be able to completely clear my head of any biases I've already made. I expect to make inconsistencies and backtracks aplenty. Sorry about that.

For those of you who just skim past large posts, I'll have my conclusions in a separate post tomorrow, so this is perfectly skippable. I'm just putting up a thought trail so I don't get accused of going "where the wind blows."

---

Contrary to what Memnon claimed, I feel RVS ended fairly typically in this game. Perhaps Memnon's graphing calculator and Ren's refusal to participate was not expected, but it doesn't seem too out of the ordinary in a newbie game. mb53 happened to speed up the process with his pressure vote on NomDePlume, but otherwise, RVS didn't "fall on its face."

I'm going to point out something that I did in RVS that nobody really questioned. Maybe nobody thought it particularly damning at the time, but in hindsight, I believe it really was a scummy action. I could have been a mafia, overly cautious and fearful that my newbie partner would jump at the opportunity to quick hammer; I could have made this post to stop my partner from doing so. wolframnhart caught my jumpiness and threw out a couple of theory questions; mb53 merely became annoyed. I don't think he skipped the analysis of my action simply because he thought it wasn't scummy.

Ren's observation that both Kenman and NomDePlume were quick to post in the thread is interesting. It's a weak tell at best until we get other evidence that they are scummy. For the moment, I don't feel that two SEs would be that eager to start distancing each other so early.

There is something interesting going in Newbie 960 with votes. It's as though there's an abundance of pressure votes. It's a mine field out there. Perhaps I never noticed this in the games I've read because I wasn't a participant in them, but I feel this is a quirk unique to this game and its player list. Go town!

I'm also starting to see why people are so against theory discussion in Mafia games. It screws up reads. Initially, I thought it would be possible to throw out theory questions then pick apart people's responses to them. As it turns out, it's very, very difficult to accuse someone of being scum because it's totally possible that their opinion is just different from yours, and that difference may have nothing to do with roles.

Case in point is Memnon's advocacy of a policy lynch. Some may point this out to be damning evidence that Memnon is trying to lead a mislynch, but it's also possible that Memnon truly believes that a VI could ruin town if he is allowed to live to LyLo. I feel this is, at best, a weak tell that can only be used when paired with other evidence; otherwise, it's a null tell and best left to post-game analysis or the Mafia Discussion forum.

Regarding Memnon: I've already posted a PBPA, so I doubt I'll go into any more depth with Memnon's posts unless context calls for it.

Oh, here I have some good meat. I don't like Ren's attack on andrew94 for "avatar fluff" because of the circumstances behind the avatar posts. andrew94 thought at first that avatars were not important until a few of us insisted on it. When the avatar suddenly became an important issue, andrew94 needed to ask how to do it. That's not purposeful posting of fluff, and this should have been clear to Ren.

mb53's speculation that Ren might be bussing andrew94 is interesting. It's a possibility one can't really deny, but from personal experience, Ren's interactions with andrew94 might be scum-town or even town-town; it isn't necessarily scum-scum. If it was scum-scum, I doubt andrew94 would have responded in the manner he did.

Ren's response to andrew94's demand for a role claim is good. I don't like the second part, however, where Ren promises to permaban themselves from Mafia if they are lying. I'm treating that as a null tell right now, but if I see something that points back to this, I'm definitely digging this quote right back up. Anyway, in the same post, Ren makes an excellent response to Memnon regarding policy lynching... and then disappoints me with their response to me regarding andrew94's language barrier. Bah!

I think there's something wrong with all the scum tells people are getting from andrew94. As NomDePlume stated previously, the andrew94 wagon at the time was a really easy one to join, and it was also very easy to point out andrew94's hesitation and inconsistencies as role-related.

It's possible -- nay, it is perhaps fact -- that most of the people hounding on andrew94 were town and could not yet differentiate between role-related and meta-related tells at this point. It is also possible, as I have stated before, that there is scum on this wagon, whether or not andrew94 is actually scum. I don't think these two possibilities are mutually exclusive. Votes on andrew94 need to be reexamined.

All right, this is just my paranoia talking, but I think I need to keep an eye on NomDePlume. It's highly likely that his defense of andrew94 is town-motivated, but I have also seen scum defend scummy townies to earn town credential. The fact that scum already know who is town makes this very easy to do. I'll get back to this at some point, as I've seen him pop in and out.

Also, Ren wasn't the only one tunneling andrew94. mb53 was doing that as well. I'm already somewhat suspicious of mb53 because of the RVS incident described way up toward the top of the wall, but I'm not sure what to make of these attacks. I don't feel he's done any particularly townish things, but at the same time, I don't see any scummy things either; it's just these two points rub me somehow.

andrew94's posts here and here suggest some sort of connection to Ren. It's something to ponder.

I like NomDePlume's case against Titiboo. It's the first, plus points for that. I also like the questions he's asking Memnon here regarding the policy lynch he's pushing. I don't like mb53's ultra-quick shift to Titiboo or the emphasis on pressure; the vote is close to useless, since mb53 shows he is willing to shift votes on the fly.

I like how Ren is answering andrew94's questions, actually. It's a combination of teaching (coaching?) and attacking. I don't think scum will be doing this unless it's an andrew94 + Ren scum team, which I will gladly rule out based on their interactions.

Again, NomDePlume comes to andrew94's defense. Actually, it's not really a "defense," but more like something a "good player" would say in an effort to shift attention off a distraction. The problem I see here is NomDePlume makes no actual effort to do so; he merely nods. Going out on a limb here, ScumDePlume does not want to be the one to lead. Rather, he waits for town to walk themselves to the next target, and he will follow them or stop them for town cred.

I'm noticing a trend here, and it's disturbing. The non-RVS attacks up to the halfway point of the game -- perhaps even beyond -- are mostly against newer players: andrew94, Ren, and Titiboo.

Guys, remember that experienced players would be better town and would be better at

acting

town. Newer players are trying to work this out. Remember to take experience into account, and don't just follow the ICs and SEs just because "they know better."

NomDePlume acknowledges Titiboo and wolframnhart have been difficult to read due to lack of content, and he accuses Ren of distracting tunneling. I don't have a problem with this, really, since there wasn't much to work with at this point in the game thanks to all the theory and the andrew94 tunnels. It's just that I'm still uncomfortable with NomDePlume...

Oh, it looks like I disagree with Sotty7 regarding NomDePlume's posts. This is going to get really interesting really fast, folks! Huzzah for last-minute, close-to-deadline Day 1 action!

---

Reading is getting really smooth past page 8. That's an interesting trend.

What I'll do is post this first part now, finish reading tomorrow morning, then post the second and third parts. The wall will probably be easier to digest in parts.

...to be continued!!

[Equinox]

Continuing from last night's post...

I Am Innocent mentions that Memnon's post here may be an attempt to communicate with a scum partner to back off andrew94. This is an interesting observation that is worth a second look. Memnon's post does appear to be sudden; he was not yet under pressure, and it wasn't during the heat of andrew94's interrogation. Looking back, I think that post was in response to andrew94's accusation of Ren, since it would make more sense if put in that context. It would also be a null tell, funny wording aside. (This theory is confirmed with Memnon's response later in the thread.)

ToG posts his list of reads. His town read of Sotty7 seems to be based on the fact that Sotty7 is defending him. While I agree with him on this read, I don't agree with how he got there. I will cover this in my third post, as it's not relevant to my reread right now. ToG also shows he is willing to

dig

for meta. That's massive dedication, folks.

Skipping even more theory...

NomDePlume uses ToG's meta read of Ren to vote Ren. I know I am being a hypocrite, but this is some nice piggy backing behavior here. Considering his odd "defense" of andrew94 and his vague movements toward pro-town statements, I'm getting more and more comfortable with calling for his lynch.

ToG tunneling me is interesting, now that I've broken out of my OMGUS mindset. This is probably not role-related, considering that mb53 never attacked me (even when he should have, I might add). I don't think this tunneling is scummy; I think it's because of how ToG is reading my posts. I've addressed this already.

NomDePlume's case on Ren is... interesting. I disagree with his first point; really, andrew94's responses were practically

begging

for more questions, and Ren delivered. It was not so much scum hunting but more of a "You are not answering my questions and it's frustrating me" interrogation. I like his second point, since Ren's unvote really does appear that way.

I never thought I'd say this, but his defense of my posts are giving me the same vibe as his defense of andrew94. He doesn't explain his "town mentality" position further, which makes it seem as though he actually knows I am town and is trying to get me to sway to his side... That's kind of scary to me. I apologize if you honestly do believe I am town, but I've learned not to automatically trust people who appear to trust me for no apparent reason.

ToG backs off me after I ask him my million dollar question. This is an odd thing to do, but I believe this is a newbie tell, since he said that he wasn't sure of how to scum hunt yet.

Memnon's last line in this post is very weird. It makes no attempt to defend Memnon while making him appear that much more suspicious at the same time.

Hmm... Memnon made a case against I Am Innocent and NomDePlume yet didn't back it up. Or, rather, he did explain the I Am Innocent case, but he's not that solid. I feel that his reasoning that "his attack on me is opportunistic" is actually an OMGUS reaction -- not necessarily scummy, but I know it's a reaction I get when people accuse me -- and not an actual "I think he is scummy!" reaction. Memnon does not elaborate on his cases against imkingdavid and NomDePlume, which is disappointing.

NomDePlume doesn't have an actual position regarding Memnon, which is very much noted. Bad luck that both Ren and Titiboo flaked. He seems to think andrew94 is town, and from his posts and the wording here, I gather he believed that from the beginning...

This post by Memnon has me thinking he's just a newbie town. Nothing to see here. Moving along.

Sotty7's attack on imkingdavid is interesting. What I read from imkingdavid's comment is more of a theory-based warning rather than an actual scum hunting attack, yet Sotty7 appears to take offense.

I am forced to wonder why exactly Skill006 liked and still likes Ren. Ren's posts were more of a null tell than a town tell for me, and the current imkingdavid bandwagon means a bunch of other people don't feel Ren was townish.

It's getting harder to read posts despite the smoother reading in the latter part of the thread... and I fear it's because I'm starting to tunnel NomDePlume in my mind. If I survive Day 1, I'll have to go back and reread imkingdavid's and Skill006's posts to catch anything I've missed.

I like Sotty7's push for Skill006 to post reasons why she doesn't want andrew94, imkingdavid, or Equinox. Skill006 should have noticed that these are rather popular wagons, which means they need some compelling evidence before they can be disbanded. I cite the example of andrew94. His later posts were good enough to end the wagon and tunneling.

Oooh, I like Sotty7's follow-up attack on imkingdavid's warning a lot more than the initial attack. I can't wait to see how imkingdavid responds to this.

Hmm... Skill006's post has me bemused. What she's doing here is... advocating for not lynching certain people, rather than advocating for lynches like everyone else has been doing. That's certainly a different approach, and I don't like the implications. I also don't like Skill006 taking option three without any other explanation. To take a bite out of Skill006's book here, I don't want to lynch Skill006 today, but I definitely want a second look tomorrow because there's something going on here.

Okay, time to write up post three.

[Equinox]

Conclusions!

Unvote, Vote: NomDePlume

NomDePlume's defense of andrew94 suggests that he possesses privileged information, and his defense of Equinox appears to be an attempt to gain her trust for later stages of the game as well as town credential in the event of a mislynch. His agreement with Equinox that andrew94's interrogation is distracting adds nothing to the game, and he made no effort to move the game away from andrew94 at any point.

I am not comfortable lynching either andrew94 or Memnon today. I am willing to lynch imkingdavid if there are no better options by deadline, but I would rather wait for his response to Sotty7.

---

Reading the game in one go gives some very good insights into previous states of the game day that one would not get by getting a post-by-post feed. I recommend doing this if anyone is not sure of what to make of the current game state and has some spare time to kill.

ToG

Newbie 940 has just ended, so I am now free to address the wording of my spreadsheet advertisement in that particular game.

I was taking over that spreadsheet from a player I was replacing. Basically, this was the first game where I publicized the fact that I was doing one... and the first game where I actually made a spreadsheet. You will see this in an isolation read in that game. I specifically asked if anyone still wanted the spreadsheet before I went ahead with it.

Once I got a "yes," I took up the practice. I did not yet think of the possibility that I might die during the game, which is why I never mentioned it.

[Equinox]

This was in newbie #924. I read Donny as town in that game (I was town) and Andrew immediately struck me as very similar in this one. The scum in that game, TaylorSwift, did precisely this: "scum defend scummy townies to earn town credential". Wolf (and IAI) was in that game and he was in this one at this point so blatantly performing this "trick" were I scum would have been stupid.

Ah! I remember reading that endgame. (That's where I got that line.) I didn't realize you were in it. Yes, considering I Am Innocent would know about that game, ScumDePlume probably wouldn't pull that gambit. Hmm... This is actually good enough for me to unvote.

Unvote

You are a bit ambiguous here so I don't know what you mean. You don't have a problem with my accusing Ren of tunneling or you don't have a problem with Ren tunneling?

I don't have a problem with your accusation.

Hmm... I probably did mess up the timeline while reading. I'll take a closer look at the posts you've pointed out.

Change of plans.

Vote: Memnon

If it's between imkingdavid and Memnon, I choose Memnon. I may have gotten a town read before from one of his more recent posts, but I want to hear about his case against imkingdavid/Ren and NomDePlume, which he never clarified.

[Equinox]

FLUFF POST.

Something just occurred to me. If we're getting

fifteen pages

out of Day 1 and we keep this up for later days, it's going to be total hell to find replacements!

._.

No flaking allowed! Under threat of lynch!

[Equinox]

Flaking == replacing out
V/LA == "AFK"

Therefore, I forbid anyone from flaking.

[Equinox]

Regarding Memnon:

I may have gotten a town read before from one of his more recent posts, but I want to hear about his case against imkingdavid/Ren and NomDePlume, which he never clarified.

[Equinox]

equinox's vote and subsequent unvote of nomdeplume is kinda bothering me as well. It really seems like she doesn't want to take a stance.

I had a stance while I was reading; it's in that post where I voted NomDePlume. In fact, I had trouble reading past the halfway point because I started to mentally tunnel him. However, most of my suspicions were based on his odd defense of andrew94 and Equinox when almost everyone else had found them scummy at some point in the game, and his meta basically nulls the case. Read NomDePlume's response and then the game he references (post-game analysis is fine) and you'll see why.

[Equinox]

It just seemed odd to me...you really thought he was scum, and then that one piece of meta convinced you otherwise.

And I just notcied that you refer to yourself in the third person. Is that for convinience when people are rereading the thread? (just out of curiosity)

1. I read that game once while I was bored. Considering I Am Innocent was part of that game, I highly doubt ScumDePlume would pull the gambit of which I was accusing him... unless those two are a scum team, but I'm not considering that possibility at the moment. It's a strong enough piece of meta for me.

2. Convenience.

[Equinox]

Happy scumday, imkingdavid!

What happens if I decide not to claim?

If you are a power role, you'd better claim.

If you are a vanilla townie, chances are you're going to get lynched anyway, but do claim.

If you are scum, please stay on the line.

[Equinox]

Equinox seemed to have put a heck of lot of effort into re-reading the game and placing a vote on Nom.

I am a little surprised to see her unvote right away like that.

I will need to have a look at meta to see if this is something she does as town.

You should also read Newbie 924, since TaylorSwift's gambit there (defending scummy townies) is what I was accusing NomDePlume of doing. I unvoted because I doubted ScumDePlume would pull that stunt with wolframnhart in the game (or continue it with I Am Innocent).

On the other hand, it is completely possible that he'll do it, but a lot less accurately than TaylorSwift. I'm keeping an eye on him.

[Equinox]

...ugh. I need to process this.

Unvote

Why were you so reluctant to claim?

[Equinox]

Claim: Not Cop

I'm a bit confused at the moment because I'm back to square two. I'll need to take a look at my notes again for Day 2; it's too late to do so for today, since it's going to take a lot more than "this seems a bit scummy" to move off the current wagons.

I've said before that I would be uncomfortable with lynching andrew94. I am also currently uncomfortable with lynching imkingdavid. If I am forced to choose between these two, however, I will vote to lynch andrew94 as a policy lynch.

Vote: andrew94

Yay for following imkingdavid... for now.

As for actual stances: I suggest questioning Skill006 tomorrow for reasons I've stated in my second wall of text. I am also going to keep an eye on ToG (mainly for things mb53 did that I found pretty odd) and NomDePlume (just in case, even though he's cleared for now based on meta).

[Equinox]

EBWOP:

Requesting prod of ToG.

We need to come to a decision quickly, guys. We have ~28 hours remaining.

[Equinox]

I'm a little confused here.

For one, scum defending scummy townies isn't a gambit. A gambit it something that involves some risk like claiming cop or whatever. Defending scummy townies isn't a gambit by definition.

Also, you accused Nom of doing this already knowing about wolf and IAI, so why even make the vote?

Thanks for the correction.

I didn't remember the player list for that game. I just remembered the technique. When NomDePlume brought up the game, I took a look, and it was the exact game I had read before.

[Equinox]

14 hour warning on deadline!

We need to reach a consensus. If you've gotten town reads on all three wagons, screw it and just lynch someone.

Also, the forum is going to go down pretty soon, so get your last thoughts and notes together before it does!

andrew94

Are you cop?

I hope ToG can get in before the deadline to claim. We can decide officially then.

Scenario #1 may not necessarily be true. Mafia goons might keep Memnon around to discredit his cop claim and get us to mislynch on Day 2. It's unlikely and pretty risky... but risk doesn't mean much in Mafia.

If it's scenario #2, the doctor should not be breadcrumbing, lest s/he dooms us all. Just lay low and do some good townish-looking work.

No comment on either scenarios #3 or #4 yet. Holding on to that thought, though.

[Equinox]

Regarding having a cop in LyLo:

1) If Memnon is, in fact, a scum cop, he

will

mess up. A town cop knows he is the cop, and he will act as such. A scum cop has all the information he needs, but he has to follow a set formula. We can decide whether or not to lynch Memnon on Day 2. I don't think now is a good time to make that determination.

2) There are two scum. If we are still unsure of Memnon on Day 3, we can look for the other scum. Use Days 2 and 3 to analyze the setup.

Regarding results:

1) The scum cop will most likely "clear" a townie to gain town's trust. It's possible that the scum cop will try to clear his partner, but that's highly risky, as it will implicate the entire scum team, and town will eventually find out if this is the case anyway.

2) If the cop comes out with a guilty result, we lynch the guilty first. If we get a town flip, we lynch the scum cop in LyLo. We still win.

[Equinox]

I feel like my train of thought has been cut off with the 2-day break. I need to reexamine the imkingdavid and Sotty7 walls of interaction as well as look over my notes and hopefully remember where this game was going. At least I have until Friday to do all this.

Hoping to hear from ToG as well.

Well, we have some more time to agree on somebody different now. I'm still ok with lynching andrew, but I'm hesitant about him actually turning up scum.

Well, gee, I don't think moving the deadline changed much for me. I'm a little more willing of the IKD lynch then I was before, just because I think it'll provide more useful information then an andrew lynch would, but I still think IKD is town.

We have two days. If you disagree with both the andrew94 and the imkingdavid wagons, find someone else to lynch. I feel like you're just saying these things half-heartedly here. Our objective is to lynch scummy people; no point in lynching a pro-town player just because we can.

[Equinox]

Don't get the new forum-software, how are you able to do an Iso read ?

You can't. Mr. Flay is working on that, though; it'll probably be done by Friday (link).

[Equinox]

...

andrew94, nobody was going to lynch you. Why did you claim?

[Equinox]

Actually, let me correct that.

There are three votes on you, yes, but you do not die until there are five votes. You only claim when there are four votes, and someone is willing to give you the fifth vote. So far, nobody has said that they were going to give you votes #4 and #5.

Oh, well. What's done is done... We need to figure out what to do here with two PR claims.

Unvote

REAL DOCTOR, DO NOT COUNTERCLAIM. Just lay low and do your job.

imkingdavid, if we do not come to any other consensus, I'm willing to hammer you on Friday. However, I think I need to look again at whoever is left on the field.

[Equinox]

Mod: Approximately what time should we expect the deadline?

Save the discussion about claims until Day 2, please!

The mafia are already jumping with glee for the situation right now; they don't need extra lessons on how to kill us all.

Given that we've had both power roles claim, I need to hear that explanation from Skill006 regarding the reverse lynch list ASAP.

What do the two of you think of an Equinox lynch?

If it will settle doubts you guys may have about me on Day 2, so be it. You need to start the day with as few doubts as possible, as it's a critical decision point that can turn the tables for either side. I do not want to be a hindrance to that decision-making process if I can help it. One wrong step on Day 2, and it's a loss for town.

Then there was the whole, "I'm gonna re-read the game and build a case only to unvote right away as soon as the case is rebutted."

All I can say is, "Read Newbie 924." It's a strong meta against that particular technique of which I accused NDP. Everything else I had on NDP were weak scum tells; my main case on him was his defense of andrew94 and Equinox, two of the scummiest/VIest players in this game. I did not realize both wolframnhart and I Am Innocent were witness to that kind of scum play before, and when NDP pointed it out, that meta became an anti-scum tell. If NDP were scum, I believe he would not purposefully try TaylorSwift's "tactic" again.*

* = OTOH, what TaylorSwift did in Newbie 924 may have been unintentional. Therefore, I still need to keep an eye on him.

I do not have any actual scum reads right now. Sorry. Just a couple of IGMEOYs -- Skill006, NomDePlume, and ToG, in that order -- and a whole bunch of town and null reads. I think the reasons behind most of those reads are in the walls somewhere. If not, feel free to ask.

Since we're on the subject of lynching, my preferred lynch order would be imkingdavid, Equinox, and NomDePlume. The first one would mean less risk of unintentionally No Lynching because we didn't get the required five votes. The second one is for reasons stated above (not to mention you will get information from my lynch -- either my twilight musings or examination of accusations against me -- and it's useful stuff). The third one is to settle doubts in my mind about NDP. I called his meta an anti-scum tell, not a town tell, for the asterisked part above.

I will not support Skill006 or ToG lynches today. Yeah, my IGMEOY and lynch lists are not synchronized... got my own reasons for that.

And I definitely agree that fencesitting for the majority of the day is a pretty big deal. However, I'm not sure if it's something I would feel comfortable lynching her over.

Do you think my flavor of fence-sitting is what scum would do in this game? That should help answer Sotty7's and your indecision about whether or not to lynch me.

Any more speculation from me on that point would be WIFOM and

not

helpful, so I'll leave it at that and at meta.

At the moment no-one leaps out at me.

We're on Day 1. Scum isn't going to be glaringly obvious at this stage. Do you have any null reads that you'd like to examine more, at least? Seems odd you're keeping mum about this.

[Equinox]

However, you've played in quite enough games that I am sure that you shouldn't be scared of others' opinions.

Most of those games are replacements. I've noticed that I tend to be more energetic in replacement games... but I'll save that for my wiki.

The only time I was actually afraid of people's opinions was when I backed off ToG. Sotty7 has a point when she says I got town points for not pulling an OMGUS attack; I was purposefully keeping off ToG because it would have been really difficult to say anything against him with his tunneling, and it was also really difficult to get any reads on him while he was attacking me. (To sum up, since I've got nothing to lose here: I have no problem with ToG now... but I have a problem with mb53. I cannot hold ToG responsible for mb53's actions, but I can't completely ignore mb53 either, hence the IGMEOY.)

The other times were me not getting any reads either way... the true source of my fence-sitting. Going back to my very first sentence, I've grown used to seeing a trail already laid out; a trail being built as we go, I'm not so good with (and trying to rectify). In hindsight, I probably should have actively done something to fix that. That was a bad fail on my part.

As for going with the flow... yeah, guilty. Well, it was more like someone pointed something out, I finally went to look, and then noticed it myself. Very poor play on my part. Also very

lazy

play on my part. I could have easily looked back and forth for something wrong, and I didn't; I just did the post-by-post thing. My only point of active participation would be the three walls. Sad, eh?

Lots of lessons learned here. I'll just eat this failure and then post as much stuff as I can get in before I'm dead.

[Equinox]

If anyone is looking to do isolation reads: The old forum is still up.

[Equinox]

Firstly I would like to know how to do iso reads

Toward the bottom, there's a thing that says "Display posts by user:" and a dropdown menu. Pick a name there and click "Go."

As Player are still weighting the odds (You included as you did not put them on your no lynch list) I think we need to discuss this right here.

I absolutely oppose discussing PRs today. Scum know too much from the present discussion as it is. Save the claim believability speculation until Day 2.

Longer post coming. In the middle of researching and writing that right now.

@Equinox finding Mb53 scummy.
I was unable to find anything scummy about Mb53.
You did mention this already a few times and I would be really glad if you could point the different posts out.

Of course you wouldn't, since you know mb53's role. I will gladly link the specific posts as soon as I'm through with this longer wall, though.

also, I had 3 votes on me, now looking back I strongly suspect one of them is wolf as the wolves could have just hammered me.

I'm actually writing about the votes on you right now. Do you see any votes that are particularly suspicious?

[Equinox]

EBWOP:

Longer post coming. In the middle of researching and writing that right now.

I don't know what I meant by "that," but I'm definitely not doing research on the PR claims ATM. >_>; Yeah. I think I shifted stuff around in my post and then forgot to move this sentence...

[Equinox]

Okay. I should probably reexamine my reread in light of new stuff. That, and I need to do something more than, "Lynch me now because I don't want to wait until Day 2 to get lynched because there are better choices for Day 2." And I need to stop being lazy in 960. >_>

Here goes...

1. Apparently, I'm getting contradicting reads on replaced slots. Namely, town on imkingdavid and null on Ren, town on ToG and null-scummy on mb53, and town on I Am Innocent and null on Kenman. Interesting... and total blah.

2. I tunneled NDP after the first wall, which is why my sudden dropping of NDP appeared so dramatic. Most of my case was the defense issue, but I see I've also accused him of piggy backing. I need to really look at NDP's defense and look at the posts where he claims he didn't follow the crowd. This is coming after my examination of andrew94's wagon.

===

The andrew94 wagon!

Vote #0: Titiboo votes andrew94 in RVS. Bonus points for being first.
Vote #1: Ren votes andrew94 for lying. Eh.
Vote #2: mb53 votes andrew94 for not clarifying his accusation that Ren is lying. Eh.
Unvote #1: Ren unvotes andrew94 because... I'm not sure why. Ren appears to think andrew94's actions are a null tell.
Vote #3: Memnon goes for the policy lynch. Debated to death.
Unvote #2: mb53 still finds andrew94 scummy and does the IGMEOY move, and then mb53 piggy backs on NDP's case against Titiboo. Yeeeeahhh. Bad mb53.
Unvote #3: Memnon unvotes on my suggestion. Yeah.
Vote #4: My fail. Oh, man. That does look scummy on my spreadsheet. Moving on.
Unvote #4: Skill006 unvotes in Titiboo's place. Nothing here.

Long break.

Vote #5: imkingdavid votes andrew94 because andrew94 was his other suspect besides Memnon. Meh.
Vote #6: My deadline lynch.
Vote #7: Uh... what? (Oh, it's a deadline lynch as well.)
Massive Unvoting: andrew94 claims.

Verdict:

It's unlikely that both scum were on this wagon; if we had scum on this wagon, we'd have at most one. Most of the voters were acting out of townish intentions, and the votes that had me scratching my head were contextually null tells. Therefore, if I am to find scum, andrew94's wagon is not the place to begin looking.

===

I think I'll need a bit more time to look again at NDP, so I'll end this post here and get to that now. Be back in a bit...

[Equinox]

I swore to myself to not write walls again, but here I am, writing more. I will try to keep this short.

First, I am going to address NomDePlume's response to my case against him.

This was in newbie #924. I read Donny as town in that game (I was town) and Andrew immediately struck me as very similar in this one. The scum in that game, TaylorSwift, did precisely this: "scum defend scummy townies to earn town credential". Wolf (and IAI) was in that game and he was in this one at this point so blatantly performing this "trick" were I scum would have been stupid.

TaylorSwift was accused toward the end of Newbie 924 of being "too accurate." Scum do defend scummy townies to earn town credential, and it worked with TaylorSwift for most of the game until a townie pointed out that his reads were a bit

too

correct. The main reason I dismissed my case against NDP was the player list in that game. I'd read that game before out of curiosity, but I'd never paid much attention to the players who were in it; when I read through NDP's defenses of andrew94 and Equinox, it somehow made me remember this particular game, but I didn't remember which game it was until NDP conveniently pointed it out.

It is as NDP says: It would be quite foolhardy to attempt this in a game where Newbie 924 players would spot it. In the winding WIFOMy mess of my mind, however, I think TaylorSwift's accuracy was unintentional, and if NDP is scum, he might be doing it unintentionally as well. Nevertheless, this meta is an anti-scum tell, so I'm off NDP at the moment.

What more do you think I should be doing to get them to move on? I wasn't waiting for the town to walk themselves to another target I was pointing one out and questioning another.

I will concede that you were probably the first to point out that andrew94's inconsistency was not that scummy, but the reason I made that point against you was this post where you sort of just nodded and then... nothing. It seemed to me as though you didn't want to lead the town off andrew94 at that point; you did attempt, in that post where you questioned us about our thoughts regarding the inconsistency, but you didn't try again. Just didn't seem proactive to me. (Haha, there's me being a hypocrite again!)

Please show me where I have followed someone else.

In this post where you vote Ren, you followed ToG. Reading you in isolation, though, I see you already had a case against Ren by this point, so you didn't actually follow ToG; you merely used his case to add to your own.

VERDICT

: Reading NDP in isolation and in relation to his rebuttal makes it clearer that I had a weaker case on him than I thought. NDP drops down from IGMEOY to null. (Null because you don't seem to be as active as the others... might be RL related as you say, but I can't ignore Sotty7's assertion that you only post when something addresses you.)

Second, I am going to answer ToG's request for a case against mb53.

In this post, mb53 is annoyed that I ruined his RVS pressure vote, but he never actually

questions

me about it. As I've said before, I find what I did pretty scummy in hindsight; I might have stopped the mini-wagon on NDP because I didn't want my newbie scum buddy to fall for it. It's possible that this possibility never actually occurred to anyone, but it's funny that mb53 didn't pressure me further about that when he was quite willing to pressure NDP over a harmless question.

This vote-hopping to Titiboo is a tad weird. IIRC, Titiboo was flaking at that point; no amount of pressure voting would have changed that. Not to mention mb53 is riding on NDP's case.

Grand total of two things. Impressive. v_v

VERDICT

: mb53 warrants an IGMEOY on his slot. However, ToG appears to be doing really well.

All right, since the isolation reading feature is back, time to do some of that tonight. It probably won't change the situation against me any, but I'm hoping this will provide some useful information for you guys tomorrow.

[Equinox]

I woke up expecting to be dead, but... uh... .___.

I really want to flip my vote to Equinox after her posting more of nothing. Suspecting and talking about a player who is no longer in the game is just mind blowing at this point in the day.

I brought up mb53 in that wall last night only because ToG requested it. He felt mb53 did nothing scummy, but I did, so I outlined it for him. I can't hold ToG responsible for mb53, so I can only watch him at best... not to mention I actually like ToG, so I wouldn't do anything close to lynching him today anyway.

As for me not posting anything substantial -- I did have things to say. I just couldn't say them at that (or even this) point in the game, given our situation. Sorry about that. I'll say them, eventually.

[Equinox]

I said before that I had things I couldn't say until Day 2. That night kill is the reason. I had my doubts about Memnon's cop claim, so I'd planned on lynching the cop to confirm whatever result he had before proceeding to LyLo. Well, I guess that plan is shot, which is better for me.

I'm going to wait for andrew94's response before I say anything else.

Well, Sotty7, here's my answer:

Vote: Skill006

Last night's flip has not only shot down my epic Day 2 plans for mislynching the cop but also shot down the benefit of the doubt I'd given Skill006. Today is Day 2, so whatever Skill006 had to say needs to come out now, particularly regarding the reverse lynch list and the need to wait until Day 2 before deciding on who is scum.

I am amused that you're implying I bussed NomDePlume in Day 1. I'll admit, the rapid vote and unvote does appear to be a bussing attempt. It's not... mainly because I know I'm not scum, but you wouldn't know that, so yeah.

[Equinox]

Only going to respond to Sotty7's post -- no time to do much else.

Last night's flip has not only shot down my epic Day 2 plans for mislynching the cop

I'll explain why I planned to lynch the cop claim.

I've been in two games with 2 false cop claims. One claimed in Lylo, so we didn't have much to do there (940). One claimed before Lylo; my biggest regret there is we didn't lynch him but instead took him at his word when someone else flipped (945). I read a thread/post (forgot which and where) in MD that proposed the idea of lynching the claimed cop post-Day 1 to 1) confirm the existence of the cop, 2) confirm the investigation result or non-result, and 3) lynch the lying scumbag if s/he wasn't actually cop.

Be back with more tomorrow, though I suspect I'm going to be the lynch of the day. I do not object; I'll simply post as much crud as I can and let y'all sort it out in Lylo.

[Equinox]

is there a need to ask who i protected? it is obvious

Please answer the question. Obviously, it's not so obvious.

[Equinox]

We're in a semi-open setup. No one is confirmed. Sometimes, there are no counterclaims because no one who is town-aligned can do so legitimately. This is what happened in 945, actually; doctor died on Night 3 and scum cop claimed roleblock on Day 4. Both scum flipped goon. That was a very hard lesson I would not like to repeat.

Also, that's not an appeal to emotion. I'm not asking you to not lynch me; I just said I wouldn't object to my own lynch because it would give town information. Lynching someone else who flips town will just screw us all over in Lylo when Sotty7 is certain that I'm scum, and I know I'm not.

In case someone accuses me of lurking: I saw that Skill006 responded, but I can't answer that until I get full access back. Refer to signature. I'm only answering direct questions and accusations that can be answered within one short post while popping in and out. I only have access until about 10 minutes or so, and I'd like to get back to other business that needs to be taken care of online.

[Equinox]

I wonder why andrew94 is acting so defensive over this question... Something feels off, but I don't know what it is. I'll need to investigate as the day goes on, since I can't get a read off andrew94's Day 1 play.

Anyway, I will answer ToG:

Why are you all interested in Andrew94 doc target ?

What we need to know is what happened during Night 1. The cop should not have died during Night 1, so we're asking andrew94 to tell us who he protected and then talk about possible scenarios. The claimed doctor has confirmed that he visited Memnon last night, so a few things are possible here:

1) The roleblocker chose to block the doctor while the mafia team killed the cop.
2) andrew94 is not the doctor and claimed only for self-preservation.

Again, we are in a semi-open setup, so nothing is confirmed. Always remember this.

I'm going to allow myself a little bit of WIFOM speculation here, only because it's something I'm going to personally look into. I'm going to assume, for now, that andrew94 really is doctor and tried to protect Memnon. Roleblocking the doctor and killing the cop is sort of an odd thing to do, considering that not everyone bought Memnon's claim. (At least, I didn't, hence my willingness previously to lynch him to prove his alignment.) Off-site experience suggests this is something an inexperienced scum team would do: Kill the cop at all costs. That's just me, though.

To respond to Skill006:

Its not that I needed to wait until day 2 to figure out who the scum are, there were only a couple of people I wanted to wait on day 2 for

I was under the impression you didn't have anyone else at all. From a quick skim in isolation, you only mentioned three people: andrew94, Equinox, and imkingdavid. IIRC, you didn't want to lynch any of them on Day 1.

I'm starting to get more suspicious of equinox, less suspicious of sotty, and just a tad bit of IAI, but not too much (though I know we shouldn't turn a blind eye to him).

That looks better.

===

...okay. So, I officially need to do some isolation reading. That's going to have to wait for a couple of days, though, since my unexpected V/LA has put me way behind in everything and I need to prioritize. I hope to get everything ready before the 72-hour mark.

[Equinox]

aka me? inexperienced? what are you trying to hint here?

I wasn't talking about you. I just said you were doctor in that scenario. Your reaction here is noted.

how does that look better? anyone
can write that

True. Skill006 could have faked anything. The thing that looks better is she actually took a stance. Yesterday, it was just "I don't want to lynch these people." Now there's a real list of suspects.

I'm sick right now so please excuse my drop in posts. I'm hoping it is something that I can shake pretty quickly.

Get well soon!

I don't see why it is so important to get out of Andrew who he protected.

We're in a war for information. I may suspect that andrew94 protected Memnon. I may suspect that the roleblocker targeted andrew94. It may be painfully obvious that that is what he will say. However, I want to hear that directly from andrew94. It's actually really odd that you find our insistence scummy. Asking someone to confirm your suspicions is pretty standard, AFAIK.

But right now I am finding IAI and Equinox scummy for set up speculation and seemingly wanting to lynch our doc for reasons I don't understand.

I definitely should have said this earlier, but I get the feeling you're tunneling me. Yeah, you're quite certain that I am scum, but it's as if I can't do anything without hearing, "Equinox is scummy." That... is uncomfortable. Eh, whatever. Fact of life in a game of Mafia.

I always do setup analysis. Thanks to whatever the hell happened on Day 1, the scum know exactly what the setup is, but we don't. Whatever information I can get in this little game is going to help, WIFOM be damned. ...as long as I don't fall into the trap of confirmation bias, setup analysis isn't harmful.

Also, we were not pushing for an andrew94 lynch. The current situation means that lynching andrew94 would be a Bad Idea, unless he pulls a gigantic slip. Chances are good that he's clear, however.

Hell they should have countered yesterday so we could have lynched Andrew then.

I specifically asked that no one counterclaim doctor. We didn't need to know about that in Day 1, and we most certainly didn't need scum to know. Now we do, so now we ask.

Any disagreements out there about having people CC Doctor?

Not from me.

@equinox: Yeah, I didn't have anyone I was suspicious of yesterday.

Yay for fellow fence-sitter. Uh, I still don't know why you have a reverse lynch list, even if it was to respond to Sotty7... and then not have a real lynch list. Surely not everyone was a null read?

===

YAY STANCES. Yay for tl;dr section of a wall-o'-quotes. Also, yay for stream of consciousness. <_<

Sotty7 finding I Am Innocent's and my NK and setup speculation scummy is really strange. However, as an IC, Sotty7-scum should not be objecting, as that would go against the IC teaching condition; therefore, it's just odd. However, tunneling on Equinox and then looking for her partner... that I need to look into. I haven't flipped yet, and the day isn't over; speculation of scum pairs is just that -- speculation. IMO, not useful... but that opinion may be due to me knowing that any pair with Equinox in it is wrong. >_>

andrew94 has really odd reactions to stuff. Not sure what to make of those, but I do know it's setting my gut-based scumdar off as much as his defensiveness in Day 1 did. Logic is telling me he's not scum, though. Blarghargh. Gonna follow the logic for now.

Skill006 taking stances is good. Not sure why she had trouble separating town and null reads on Day 1, though.

Mod: Requesting prod of NomDePlume.

===

EBWOPreview:

I Am Innocent, either we play popcorn with the claims, or we go in some sort of order. I disagree with everyone just claiming as they go. Since you've already claimed, pick someone to go next.

[Equinox]

It probably wouldn't make much of a difference, but I like having some degree of unexpectedness when dealing with role claims, as it forces scum to either claim immediately or cause a delay while they think about it.

CLAIM: NOT DOCTOR

Popcorn ToG.

[Equinox]

The accusation of tunneling came out of an emotional spur of the moment. Point taken that you're not tunneling, since you're also looking at other players as well.

Right now I'm thinking Equinox and maybe Skill as scum, if not Skill then I could see Nom as her partner.

...looked like setting up scum pairs to me.

I don't see anyone even remotely suggesting an andrew94 lynch. Not sure why you're focused on that.

1] Teaching condition? It is widely accepted though out the site that set up speculation is scummy. So what are you talking about here?

Interesting. I've never had an objection to doing setup analysis. You're the first for me.

[Equinox]

Okay. I've been thinking about this... and I'm just going to throw this massive stream of thought out here for the sake of transparency. >_>

The problem I seem to be having here is a refusal to commit to my suspicions. Namely, I suspect someone, and then I just drop it and then not do anything about it. From what I remember of my reread, what I was trying to do was to find slips or scummy things people may have said, yet whatever I found was just easily rebutted. So, what I'm thinking right now is I should switch tactics. If I don't get scum reads off anyone, I'll just play with process of elimination and go after my null reads. Luckily for me, I actually committed to my town reads, even if I never actually listed them, and the last two flips have narrowed down the player list enough that I have half and half to work with. Yippee.

The real meat of this post:

NomDePlume had stances early in the game, but that pretty much vanished during the latter part of Day 1. This may have been due to things in real-life, but I'd like to hear more from NDP about the circumstances around the imkingdavid lynch, the NK, and the speculation we just had at the start of the day.

The people who have posted in this thread so far have posted their stances on things, with the exception of andrew94 and ToG. ToG, thoughts on the same things I asked NDP?

andrew94, why did you become upset when we asked you who you protected?

[Equinox]

...

i have posted my stance- you and ren aka imkingdavid

-facepalm-

I'm at the limit of my patience.

imkingdavid flipped town; the moderator told us that much. I don't count that as a stance for Day 2.

i didnt become upset? i merely said 'happy now?'

The "Happy now?" made it look like you were upset.

You're not my suspect for the moment, so I'm not going to ask further about that.

[Equinox]

but you ARE my suspect still?

Fine. Point taken.

There are two scum, though, so I wouldn't be the only one.

so you attacked him, unvoted and now attacking him again?

The last time I attacked NomDePlume, I did it based on something he said that I felt was scummy. His rebuttal was solid, so I dropped the case.

This time I am attacking NomDePlume based on something else. I may have to drop the case again and start over if NDP is AWOL, though... >_o

[Equinox]

@Equinox,

Found a fault in your Graph, IKID did vote for you yesterday.

Ah, whoops. Thanks for catching the error. I'll go fix that now. I'll also update it, which I haven't done for the past week or so. :S

[Equinox]

I also seem to have missed a large chunk of page 21.

You told me day 1 that you would start looking into mb53s and my play a little bit more. As I do now not have any clear scum targets I would be happy to defend either his or my play.

I was going to, but I'm going to focus for now on NomDePlume and Skill006.

It's interesting, though, that you're not accusing anyone or mentioning any reads. Are you still on the same reads you had yesterday, or have things changed and you haven't mentioned it?

in my previo9us games, the doc obs protects the cop so he gets 1 check at least? i just thought that was pretty obvious guess not

Well, Memnon died, so it wasn't so obvious; not to mention I know of cases where the protection went somewhere else. I had to ask to make sure.

[Equinox]

What part of Skill006's post feels "too pro"?

Replacing out is a null tell. Once you leave the game like that, whatever happens in the game is no longer your responsibility; in addition, replacing out is usually an indication of something in real life, not game-related. Not sure what you're trying to say there with the "replacement card."

[Equinox]

...bad habit of mine, not going backwards from new posts. ~_~

Hope everything goes well, Skill006!

Get well soon, Sotty7!

Sotty I am keeping an eye on. She seems very certain Andrew is innocent. I obviously don't see it.

On the other hand, Sotty7-scum doesn't benefit from this adamant refusal to lynch andrew94, nor would Sotty7-scum benefit from any changes of opinion regarding andrew94 later in the game. Not worth the IGMEOY, IMO.

With that I do not think I am voting Andrew unless we get to LyLo or more condemning evidence comes forward.

The first part makes it sound like you are going to lynch andrew94 in LyLo. I'm not comfortable with this statement. (I think I know where you're going here, but I'm still uneasy with the implication.) Second part is fine.

Back to twiddling my thumbs until people come back to the game.

[Equinox]

ToG, your Day 2 posts have mostly revolved around the doctor claim and setup speculation, and your larger response doesn't speak of any stances either way except for the focus on andrew94. Why are you focusing on andrew94?

[Equinox]

It was just the impression I got from both you and IAI's tone towards Andrew and how you are demanding he claim who he protected. Are you saying that you don't want an Andrew lynch?

If I had my way, andrew94 would be dead before LyLo. Given the situation as it is right now, however, I do not want to lynch him because what I'm getting from him is an anti-town feel, but not a scum read.

How many games have you played and do you have an up to date wiki?

Wiki is up-to-date. 3 completed games.

The instances where I did do setup analysis can be found in 940 and 945; neither instance was met with opposition. I wish I pushed the analysis + scum slip more in 940, and I did it wrong in 945 (...which was embarrassing >_>).

That said, point taken that setup analysis is anti-town.

EBWOPreview:

I have a comment regarding the L-2 claim, but I'm going to wait for an answer from andrew94 first.

[Equinox]

ToG, your Day 2 posts have mostly revolved around the doctor claim and setup speculation, and your larger response doesn't speak of any stances either way except for the focus on andrew94. Why are you focusing on andrew94?

ToG, address this concern, please.

[Equinox]

Mod: Requesting prod of ToG.

No comment on the I Am Innocent and Sotty7 walls, seriously. :/

[Equinox]

Hallelujah! Replacements!

Hi Netopalis!

Hi Locke Lamora! I know you from that marathon game we had during the move. What were you that game, anyway? D:

In the meantime, I would like to see Top 2 suspects from everybody. Mine are Andrew & Skill/Netopalis.

Mine's actually a top 3, since I don't have enough information from NDP and Skill006 on Day 2 to pick between them. >_>
My third is ToG. He's been pretty dodgy for a good part of Day 2.

[Equinox]

equinox ,skill/netopalis

Why Skill006/Netopalis?

[Equinox]

equinox ,skill/netopalis

Why Skill006/Netopalis?

didnt netopalis replace skill?

Yes, but that's not what I asked. Why did you suspect Skill006?

Mod: Requesting second prod or replacement of ToG. He has been inactive since Wednesday.

[Equinox]

I apologize about the wall. Conclusions follow the divider.

Equinox: what did you think of IAI and NDP's L-1 and hammer votes yesterday before you saw the flip? What do you think now?

NomDePlume could have waited a few more hours, as it was doubtful that inHimshallibe went to an early showing of Toy Story 3, but the imkingdavid lynch was on deadline. No comment.

Heh. This is ironic. Anyway...

Incidentally, I got that question from the very game I replaced into. (For everyone else: That game is now a completed game.)

The giant wall of doom: I'm a huge sucker for buddying. It will utterly screw up my reads. Therefore, Netopalis's read of Equinox is an immediate red flag. My performance in 960 is one of my worst, and I know this as

very solid opinion

fact. You can convince me otherwise post-game, but don't try this during a game.

The wall's a fairly big information mine. It's best used after Netopalis's flip, but I have a feeling he's playing the distancing game. This might be the bias I'm currently holding against ToG; however, I feel that scum is more likely to distance himself from his partner at this point than to clear him. (I won't discount his town reads just yet, though.)

Why are you buddying to her like this? You guys seem to have a little history in past games, I am getting the feeling that you are trying to get her to unvote you.

I'm getting the same feeling. He didn't do this in our last game; he waited until the hammer vote before post-game (which turned out not to be the post-game) before saying anything about my gameplay.

It uses clear language, solid logic and makes me push Equinox more into the town box.

1. Clear language. Anyone can do this. Even you. Not a town tell.
2. Solid logic. This one is a bit fuzzier. Logical fallacies is a scum tell... but solid logic is a null tell.
3. I completely retracted my case against NomDePlume a couple of posts after that wall. Why did you cite it?

---

Netopalis building giant quote walls in this manner is rather out-of-character. Strike 1.

Netopalis cited quotes that were only marginally relevant to his cases for Equinox, I Am Innocent, and Sotty7. Strike 2.

Netopalis buddied up to me. Strike 3!

While I'm on this slot, I don't think I ever mentioned my thoughts about Skill006. If I did, well, here they are again. Skill006 put up a reverse lynch list. That was strange. Her suggestion that she'd wait until Day 2 before doing anything with that list made me think that she may have been the real power role and that Memnon was lying. Memnon dying on Night 1 meant that Skill006 had no investigative powers. Therefore, the purpose of her reverse lynch list was now very unclear. Then came the questioning, answers, etc. Possible strike 4.

But one only needs 3 strikes...

Confirm Vote: Netopalis

[Equinox]

I think that the wagon against me is mainly derived from the fact that I replaced into a slot that's long been inactive.

Your wagon consists of I Am Innocent and Equinox, with Sotty7's vote pending. IIRC, none of us voted your slot because of inactivity. I Am Innocent had already reamed Skill006 before she replaced out. Equinox voted Skill006 because of something suspect she said, and the explanation did not warrant an unvote. Sotty7 plans to vote your slot because of your activity.

Buddying with Equniox? Buddying isn't really my style, I just think he cleared this game up nicely.

Your suspects list do not match mine, so I don't know why you think I've cleared this game. You've just admitted that buddying isn't your style; why did you take exception for this game, then?

Finally, I can provide some references for giant quote walls if you'd like.

Town games where you replaced in would be good.

[Equinox]

Netopalis has already answered this question, so I think it's time for me to ask about it.

Netopalis: what's your initial read of Sotty?

Why Sotty7, specifically?

[Equinox]

I'd particularly like to know why you felt the need to include so much case-irrelevant information in those wall posts I mentioned, and if you could explain what you were getting at by pointing out your own scummy behaviour, that'd be good too.

I said what I meant, and I meant what I said: I was writing out my train of thought. No intent to pad cases. I also have no ulterior motive behind pointing out my own scummy behavior; I just do it.

>_>;

Equinox's D2-starting vote on Skill and subsequent 'That looks better' response to Skill's list of suspects is naturally jumping out at me when I consider that.

I realize that looks like coaching to you, but two things:

1. Skill006 had not previously posted suspects. Therefore, when she did, her slot looked slightly better, hence the "That looks better" comment.
2. If I were scum, I wouldn't need to coach Skill006. (Yay for WIFOM.)

[Equinox]

I think I need to find a way to stop with the quote walls... Links, perhaps. I'll try not to clog up my posts with gigantic quotes. >_<

You said you were putting it up so you don't get accused of going 'where the wind blows', which I assume means following other players. If that's what it means, does this concern you? How does posting things like that comment about pressure votes achieve that goal? As for your own scummy behaviour, there was literally no point other than you thought 'oh, it's funny no-one spotted how scummy I was, I think I'll tell everyone!' That's it? You really didn't get anything out of how other players reacted?

1. It did, at the time. Now it doesn't concern me anymore because I know who I want lynched, and I know he'll get lynched and flip nicely even if I get lynched today instead of him.
2. I don't recall having a goal with the pressure votes comment. That was just an "Oh, look!" thing. No malicious intent behind it.
3. Oh, I forgot about that particular point I made regarding the bandwagon breakup thing during RVS. If I remember correctly, nobody commented on that when I brought it up, which probably meant it was more minor than I thought. Still, I hold it (albeit slightly) against mb53, who should have noticed when he posted his frustration with me for killing his pressure wagon. Instead, he just let it go...

Here we have a good psychological analysis of Andrew's different possibilities which takes into account other sites' metas, which was an excellent point that had not been thoroughly explored at that time (and which turned out to be correct).

I wouldn't call that comment I made insightful. That was coming from experience. I'm originally from one of those sites with "emphasis on survival and power roles." It also wasn't particularly game-relevant; it was just a note about andrew94's possible game play.

I didn't want Sotty to vote for Andrew, I was wondering how he could believe that the Doc claim was fake and still believe that Andrew is town. That seems like a logical inconsistency to me.

Not necessarily. Some newbie townies lie to stay alive. andrew94 had stated previously that he didn't want to "get owned" and die early; it wouldn't be too surprising if that was really the case here.

I agree with the third point though, going out of her way to look at NDP's meta and using it to inform her read does give Equinox some town points.

I didn't look for NDP's meta. That was pure chance. I'd read that game out of boredom a while back, so when NDP brought up details about it that I did not prompt, I recognized it and cleared him based on the scum play in that game.

I never said that Equinox was town because he was insightful - I said that I had a light town read on him, but that it could just be the fact that Equinox is a good player.

You have a light town read on me, but you're still holding onto suspicion because I may be a "good player." Question. Wouldn't that make me a null read, not a light town read?

[Equinox]

FLUFF POST.

Less quote walls, more linkage. Quotes clog up posts which makes it easier to hide things.

[Equinox]

If you want to get into meta arguments, I've never lost a game as scum. Therefore, you probably wouldn't know it if I was scum, so because you suspect me, I can't be scum. That make sense? No? Of course it doesn't, because that's a really silly response.

I Am Innocent was talking about his playing style while referencing his meta. I don't see the problem.

You, on the other hand, are talking about WIFOM while referencing your meta. I see a problem that involves a straw man. :/

[Equinox]

can someone please look at the case i put against equinox.

You've only accused me of being mafia. You never put an actual case against me.

[Equinox]

so you attacked him, unvoted and now attacking him again?

The last time I attacked NomDePlume, I did it based on something he said that I felt was scummy. His rebuttal was solid, so I dropped the case.

This time I am attacking NomDePlume based on something else. I may have to drop the case again and start over if NDP is AWOL, though... >_o

solid rebuttal= ndp post #23

The solid rebuttal to my first case against NomDePlume was, yes, post 23.

NomDePlume replaced out when I made my second case, so there was no rebuttal to that.

[Equinox]

i see some liquid rebuttal there not solid

What was wrong with NomDePlume's rebuttal, then?

[Equinox]

IKD was lynched on D1. He was a townsperson. Seriously, read the bloody game.

Insert quote tags into his post. He wasn't voting imkingdavid; he was quoting NomDePlume.

Please explain why you have a town read on Netopalis "since Titiboo." Titiboo was, at best, a null read because of the inactivity and lurking. Skill006 didn't take a solid position even when we were doing a deadline lynch on Day 1. Netopalis's buddying up to me is pretty insane.

[Equinox]

EBWOP: The second paragraph was directed at Nikanor.

[Equinox]

Looking from that vote count and from andrew94's posting, we're going to have two competing bandwagons with people who won't budge and scum who may push for a No Lynch. Deadline is on Saturday. I'm getting antsy.

[Equinox]

No, I absolutely refuse to budge on Netopalis. Reasons have already been stated.

[Equinox]

Hmm... You win.

Unvote

Deadline's on Saturday, so I think I have a couple of days to look again at all the case-slinging. I'm also open to the option of lynching Equinox, since that would settle more than a few questions before we go into LyLo (assuming worst-case scenarios). ...but wait until I've said my pieces first, though. It'd be a waste to lynch Equinox before I say anything. >_>

[Equinox]

This game has been out-of-character for me, Netopalis. I'm not sure why you're so surprised.

[Equinox]

Just curious.

Both Netopalis and Nikanor have accused I Am Innocent and Sotty7, yet the two of you are on separate wagons. Why is that?

andrew94, you were suspicious of Skill006/Netopalis earlier? What changed?

...and why are you going along with the townie wind?

[Equinox]

I don't recall a reason why you suspected ToG, so... yeah, post a case. Doesn't have to be a wall of quotes.

[Equinox]

what townie wind?

You're following town consensus. When suspicion was on Equinox and Skill006, those were who you suspected. Now that suspicion is on Equinox, I Am Innocent, and Sotty7, you're accusing them.

Don't do that. For all you know, you may be following the mafia.

[Equinox]

/facepalm

either ppl on wagon are wolves
or neto is wolf.....

You're accusing people because they're on bandwagons?

Is there a reason why you think bandwagoning is a scum tell?

[Equinox]

Here's the thing.

Netopalis's and Nikanor's slots were my suspects before they replaced in, and suddenly their suspects coincided. Either they're actually that blatant, or I'm screwing up somehow. I'm looking at the latter as the more likely possibility, so I'm going to look at where the cases against I Am Innocent and Sotty7 are.

Deadline is on Saturday, so I have time to at least do that.

As for going from a solid stance to an unvote -- I know this doesn't explain squat, but thoughts can change in a few hours. I just thought about it and unvoted.

I'm open to my own lynch because I'm seeing a significant amount of people (3) who have doubts about my alignment. If we lynch scum today, fine, but that's not a guarantee. (Hell, most of you are on wagons I see as town reads.) I'm thinking that if I flip, you'll lynch the real scum in LyLo because you'll be worrying about one less suspect.

I'm a bit hesitant with this option, though, because of andrew94. The way he arrives at conclusions can really lose us the game... but that's out of my control, so whatever.

[Equinox]

I don't think any questions will be answered except my flip. I'm sucking a lot of energy here that should be focused elsewhere. (Yet I continue to play the way I do... that's my fault. I'm working on rectifying that.)

Not to mention if I survive to LyLo -- and there is no doubt in my mind that I will -- all the two scum need to do is to tell andrew94 to vote. The first and only person he'd vote is Equinox. That is a recipe for disaster.

I am by no means giving up. I intend to find scum today. If we lynch scum today, that's great; we get another go. It's just that with all the wagons and suspicions thrown every possible way right now, chances are much higher we will mislynch, and I'd rather that mislynch be me.

[Equinox]

Why did YOU not vote Netopalis, then? Are you a 'wolf' with him?

[Equinox]

Okay. This is where I look at Netopalis. Again.

In 572, Netopalis presents his list of reads. These can be summed up as:

[*] andrew94 is town.
[*] NomDePlume is town.
[*] Sotty7's attacks on Equinox are hollow.
[*] Equinox is difficult to read.
[*] I Am Innocent does not actually contribute but pushes for lynches.
[*] ToG does not actually contribute but pushes for lynches.

However, he orders his suspects as Sotty7, ToG, and I Am Innocent. No reasoning for this order yet.

Then comes the quote walls, which is rather uncharacteristic of Netopalis, from what I can tell.

I will need to read I Am Innocent in isolation (but the sheer bulk scares me), but what this looks like is Netopalis picking cherries.

In 578, Netopalis explains his suspicion against Sotty7. Basically, Equinox is not suspicious. If I remember correctly, nothing in Equinox's play changed between 572 and 578, so there was no reason for Netopalis to suddenly solidify his read on Equinox when he claimed to be having trouble earlier. This is followed by a quote of a huge wall that is hardly representative of Equinox's play in 960.

I believe this shoots down Netopalis's credibility with the quoting.

In 582, Netopalis continues to list Sotty7 and ToG or I Am Innocent as suspects. I think I Am Innocent pointed out a bit later that Netopalis posted only the one case against Sotty7.

In 583, Netopalis posits his wagon is based on inactivity. Been there, done that. "Buddying isn't really my style" strikes me as odd, though. It really isn't, yet he chose a scummy townie (Equinox) to defend, hence Sotty7's and my accusations of buddying.

Also addressed was the reordering of Netopalis's suspects list in 593 with little explanation.

More quote walls about Equinox's play, which I think I've addressed.

In 602, we learn Netopalis is actually

wavering

on the Equinox read. From this isolation read, he's gone from neutral to town to how-can-you-not-see-this town to... light town spiced with paranoia. I wouldn't mind this so much if he were referencing current play rather than past play, but he's been quoting things from a more distant past than I care to remember. He clarifies somewhat in 605 that he thinks I'm town because I've given up opportunities to do scummy things. That's a bit of WIFOM.

A series of one-liners about how I Am Innocent ignored Sotty7 that I'm glossing over for the moment mainly because I have yet to actually look into I Am Innocent... which is due to me tagging them both as town reads. I don't think this is a valid point, though, as it involves one player's flip, and it can also be town following town. Sotty7's been leading, so it's not surprising that we have a bunch of other town following him. I don't recall anyone (besides a light accusation of tunneling from me and maybe a different accusation from one more) ever attacking Sotty7 until Netopalis came along.

Hmm... 620, 621, 622, 626, 629, and 630 are interesting. 621 (I Am Innocent) doesn't really address 620 (Netopalis), and 622 (Netopalis) mocks 621 (I Am Innocent) with an explanation in 626 (Netopalis). However, 629 (I Am Innocent) does a good job of clearing up 621 (I Am Innocent), and Netopalis remains skeptical in 630.

661 is a willingness to switch to I Am Innocent. Eh. I don't see too much here, except that there already was an interaction between Nikanor and Netopalis that may or may not be game-related. Keep tabs on this.

673, true, nobody is going to go out and say, "I am scum!" That doesn't mean quotes can't be more relevant. If you can't find any quotes that may be more relevant to your case, chances are there aren't any.

I find it a bit humorous that Netopalis FoSed me for jumping off him when that was the whole point... but eh. I'll acknowledge that my jumping off was uncharacteristic and was not the correct action to take by any measure.

What I should have done was stick to my guns.

It may be too early to speculate pairs, but I'll run with it anyway: If Netopalis flips scum, chances are Nikanor will, too. I say this based on his addition of ToG to his list of suspects and never actually posting a case besides the one-liner. Possible distancing with potential to upgrade to bussing.

Coming up if I make it in time: Isolation read of mb53/ToG/Nikanor and I Am Innocent, in that order.

[Equinox]

Vote: Netopalis

Even with this vote, at least consider my proposal of a chain lynch of Equinox and Netopalis.

[Equinox]

If my post contains any misrepresentation, I apologize. It was based on my understanding of your reads of Equinox, which appeared contradictory to me and still does. You assert that you lean town yet you left your options open with the unreadability comment. Now you say you lean town but would have read me scum in any other game. I realize you have other suspects, but... yeah, I still don't get it.

I'll take a closer look at the accusations Sotty7 made against you.

[Equinox]

What does getting replaced have to do with anything?

And answer the question.

[Equinox]

Specifically, this:

You're accusing people because they're on bandwagons?

Is there a reason why you think bandwagoning is a scum tell?

[Equinox]

Sigh. Less emotional, more rational. Also, since the rush to get him to answer my questions before he signed off is gone with his disappearance, I'm going to address the post and his play in general. It's pissing me off.

andrew94, you think you're being obvious, but you're

NOT

. Explain what you mean. We're not psychics.

Netopalis getting replaced MEANS

NOTHING

. If Skill006 was mafia, Netopalis is mafia. If Skill006 was town, Netopalis is town. Someone said this already -- please read, for crying out loud.

Yes, I jumped on and off. Yes, I just said I should have stuck to my guns. What are you trying to say?

I'm a scummy townie. Is that a paradox? Yes. Again, what are you trying to say?

AND STOP IGNORING QUESTIONS.

[Equinox]

EBWOTP: In addition to all the isolation reading, I'm going to look at whomever decided to stop the policy lynch. (I know I was in there. Mea culpa.) Way to fail, or way to brilliance... it's one of them, but either way, that move hurt and will continue to hurt.

[Equinox]

I think he's saying that he didn't vote Neto because he thought you were scummier. His logic in general seems to revolve around the premise that if there was scum who wasn't on Neto's wagon, they must be his buddy, otherwise they would have voted him already. Infuriating, I know. Are you saying you're going to look at who stopped the policy lynch because you think they're scum who wanted to keep Andrew in the game?

Absolutely infuriating. He's playing based on his other site meta, which isn't going to work, and he's working off the assumption we know what the hell he's trying to say.

Stopping that wagon was a horrible idea, in hindsight. Almost pro-scum...

[Equinox]

I missed this.

Alright, but I guess that I just don't see how this....

Equinox could be scum, but I'm leaning towards town. Equinox is one of those players who is good in either role, so it's difficult for me to get a good read on him.

leads to such a huge buddying charge. Seriously.

For my case, it wasn't that comment. (It did throw me off, though. I'm sorry if you were being honest, but I happen to be one of those people who go on guard upon seeing this sort of thing, particularly when the dust hasn't settled yet.)

It was the subsequent comment where you called me "insightful." My play in this game -- the way I perceive it, at any rate -- has been anything but, and I thought you would be aware of this. My play here was significantly different from 945. I may have gotten theoretical or technical things right, but I haven't done much scum hunting.

Therefore... shields up.

[Equinox]

admitting your mistakes cancels them? i wasnt aware of that

Is that what I was saying?

No.

[Equinox]

I just remembered...

Today is the deadline.

Unfortunately, I won't have time to do all the epic reading I promised to do in time. I thought deadline would be later for some reason. -_-

I'm willing to vote Netopalis or Nikanor. I am willing to vote Equinox in a time crunch. I am also open to lynching andrew94 out of policy, but I highly doubt that'll happen.

I'll be out for most of the day, but you'll hear from be before deadline.

[Equinox]

Where is everybody?

[Equinox]

Netopalis > Equinox > Nikanor > I Am Innocent > jasonT1981

No dice. :/

[Equinox]

/ignore

I refuse to engage.

---

For some reason, I thought it was 5 to lynch. This isn't even my first Day 2 game. Something is wrong with me.

Anyway, yeah, even if I were willing to lynch I Am Innocent, there's no point in switching lynches now, as Locke Lamora dropped the hammer.

For the record, if Netopalis flips town, town lost the game. Don't take this as an AtE -- it's the truth as I see it. That doesn't mean I'll give up on Day 3, but there's not much hope if we screwed up here.

[Equinox]

Quick reasons why you suspect Nikanor, then? Before inHimshallibe kills you. D:

[Equinox]

Thank you... and sorry, Netopalis.

I plan on leading a Nikanor wagon tomorrow. Unless we have the wool over our eyes by some other pair of scum, I'm pretty certain this is the correct action to take for Day 3.

Scum will be leading a wagon on Equinox for the very simple reason that the third vote they need to lynch is basically guaranteed. Actually, they probably won't even need to lead. They can just sit back and enjoy the show... After all, it's either No Lynch or town wagon. Either way, they win the game.

Good luck, all.

[Equinox]

Apparently I've screwed up enough in this game to last me for a career. What's one more?

[Equinox]

No.

Because then it wouldn't be a screw-up, would it?

[Equinox]

It was all your imagination.

[Equinox]

Sigh.

andrew94: Who did you protect?

I Am Innocent: Post numbers are at the top of the post, where they were on the old forum.

Everyone else: You're all suspects. I'd like to think Nikanor is my suspect of the day, but I've learned (again) not to run away with my assumptions. Um... not sure if I'm in any mental state to analyze this game, since I've pretty much given up, but I'll give it a shot anyway. After I ensure we're not getting a quick hammer.

[Equinox]

I Am Innocent: They were reinstated a while ago. I have my reasons for asking andrew94.

[Equinox]

Well, at least I don't have to get paranoid about Sotty being scum AGAIN.

Heh.

First off, I'd like to know: does everyone think Andrew is really the doctor? If so, why? If not, why not?

I'm trying to find out... The way he's reacted thus far makes me think he's town-aligned, though.

[Equinox]

I wouldn't throw out #2 so fast. The meta he's from might have encouraged that behavior. (I know mine did, and it was PR-heavy.)

[Equinox]

Equinox: Have you played with jason before?

No. Why?

[Equinox]

No. You can lynch me. I'm just waiting for the moment that andrew94 comes in and places his doomsday vote. What's the point of AtEing when the one person I need to convince absolutely cannot be convinced?

Nikanor... you may be correct, but you need to convince me that you are. Line of reasoning?

Locke Lamora, you too. I'm not entirely convinced that either andrew94 or Equinox are scum.

Why are you and I Am Innocent on to the same person, anyway? Shouldn't you two be playing bad cop, good cop?

[Equinox]

Well, I certainly will not rush. I'm going to pick this game apart and melt the pieces to find my gold.

I Am Innocent, I'm going to pose to you the same question Nikanor asked me: Have you ever played with jasonT1981?

[Equinox]

EBWOP: Congratulations on your new job! Best of luck with the house!

[Equinox]

Neither do you, Nikanor...

NK-analysis says that Locke is scum, probably with IAI.

Explain.

[Equinox]

That's strange. You just accused Locke Lamora of being scum with andrew94 (yes, I took the disclaimer into account)... and now you're asking if he's willing to lynch andrew94? >_> Noted.

Why wait until LyLo before deciding to lynch andrew94?

[Equinox]

What, are you cop? That's the only way you'll get away with not presenting a case. Certainly your belief that Locke Lamora and I Am Innocent are scum have to come from somewhere. Explain.

[Equinox]

Why not? You were around when we debated whether or not to go with the policy lynch. The result today is andrew94 is alive and has yet to contribute or to vote and end the game for us all.

[Equinox]

Why wouldn't it be beneficial to either me or andrew94? jasonT1981 is an IC who was about to come in with a fresh perspective of the game. Fresh perspectives mean danger to scum.

Why did you pair people right off the bat? For all you know, it could have been any of the other possible combos.

[Equinox]

Explain to me how you ruled out Equinox, then. After all, she and I Am Innocent were the hardest pushers of the wagon. Locke Lamora only dropped the hammer when he feared his Equinox wagon wouldn't go through in time.

[Equinox]

Way to completely dodge my questions, Nikanor. Answer them directly.

[Equinox]

I can see gut telling you the possible scum pairs.

I can see gut telling you who's most likely scum.

...I don't see how gut could tell you how some players wouldn't benefit from this particular NK. And you specifically brought up NK "analysis."

You know better than to simply say "GUT!" and have town follow you. Got any logical reasons behind the gut that I can poke?

Lastly, are you eager for andrew94 to come in and vote a townie so you can quick lynch? Mmmmm. That would be easy, yes.

[Equinox]

Are you not frustrated with andrew's disappearance in a critical stage of the game?

Oh, no. I'm happy as a bee. If andrew94 ever makes an appearance, guaranteed loss. If andrew94 gets replaced, I have a sliver of hope for this game. One of these outcomes is more favorable to me... This is, of course, assuming that andrew94 really is the doctor, which was what I was trying to find out earlier in the game day.

That's why I tried backing it up with things like "NK-WIFOM," but nooo you wouldn't take that. >:[

If the NK WIFOM is the basis of your gut read, fine, but I still want the process of thought that led you to this conclusion. Gut has to have a basis somewhere, and it's probably not in the pages you haven't read yet; you formed the gut read before you finished.

[Equinox]

andrew94, just vote if you're convinced Equinox is scum.

[Equinox]

We lose.

Nikanor is scum. Let me explain as soon as I finish typing up my big post.

Not that it matters... scum, get in here and quick hammer.

[Equinox]

Normally

I would try to weasel my way out of this, but if I was unsuccessful on Days 1 and 2, I doubt there is anything that would change here. What is the point of convincing someone who doesn't even bother to read the thread? This scum read andrew94 has of me started when I questioned him, and he has never taken it off since; that is my fault, and I will take entire responsibility for town's loss in this game. I also should have replaced out; that would have changed the situation as well... perhaps, as andrew94 seems to think replacing out is a town tell.

All in all, I am absolutely angry at all the failure, most of which is

my own

.

I'm done arguing with Nikanor. I've been holding on to this since this morning, hoping to get Nikanor to explain how andrew94 and Equinox were miraculously clear of killing jasonT1981 before shooting down. Now I'm tired, and I want the game to end or at least get moving to Day 4.

Since Nikanor has used "NK analysis," I feel that gives me license to do the same thing. After my game with Incognito in 958, I am not going to let something like a "WIFOM!" accusation stop me from using NK analysis.

Nikanor benefits the most from jasonT1981's death.

I dug up I Am Innocent's, Locke Lamora's, and Nikanor's scum meta. I Am Innocent and Locke Lamora have never, as far as I can tell, had a completed scum game with jasonT1981. They are out of the running for now. Nikanor, however, has had two: Open 167 and Mini 916. Nikanor the scum did not really get a chance to play in Open 167, as a cop investigation threw the game to town. However, Nikanor was in a team with jasonT1981 in Mini 916; being in a scum team gives you great illumination into your buddies' scum tactics, which makes for excellent metagaming in future games.

Even if I lose this game, I want the chance to be able to call at least one scum. Here we go. Take it away, everybody!

VOTE: Nikanor

[Equinox]

What epic plan, wolf doctor? You didn't have a plan. You've held this tunnel vision that Equinox

must

be a wolf

all game

. The only plan I blew up was a possible plan by the mafia to come in and lynch me. Otherwise, there is no plan to your vote -- you think Equinox is mafia, you vote Equinox, end of discussion. Are you admitting to a mafia gambit, you fake doctor?

Oh, but you're not my target today. My target is Nikanor. Now defend Nikanor or go away. You're not relevant.

[Equinox]

andrew94 is not going to unvote. You'll see as you go through those pages. He's been stubborn and has been attributing almost everything I do to be a scum tell.

I, however, will. I didn't expect this result from you. Not that my stance has lessened any, but:

Unvote

As for the post-game: Everyone is going to say, "I told you so." I know I will. Unless andrew94 is scum, and if that's really the case, well... I'll be

rather annoyed

. Faking newb tells == rageworthy.

[Equinox]

Oh, yeah. What's this NK WIFOM and NK analysis you were on about? I'm still interested.

In the meantime... I'll probably look into the case on IAI. I'm going to give it a few hours before I start, though, because if scum quick hammers, I'd have wasted my effort.

[Equinox]

People are offline. All this proves to you is Nikanor is not the wolf, by your logic.

Why are you basing this plan when you believe Equinox is wolf? It does not add up.

Where is my case flawed, andrew94? If anything, yours is worse. Point out the flaws, please.

[Equinox]

People are not online. The only people around now are you, me, and Nikanor. Everyone else is "AFK." Are you going to rule everything out just because Nikanor did not hammer me?

Well, see, now you have a case. Why did you not say that before?

I will ask you. If you are a wolf, andrew94, picking someone to target, would you bother looking them up before killing them? It takes a lot of effort. Wolves already know what everyone is, so they do not need to do this research.

Now, there is no way to prove this, but I looked it up after Nikanor announced s/he was using NK analysis. Take that however you like. Remember to look up Ockham's Razor, too.

Oh, andrew94, andrew94, andrew94. Why am I even arguing this with you? You're hell-bent on me being scum. I should have lynched you on Day 1.

[Equinox]

and I KNOW YOUR THE KIND OF PERSON THAT DOES THE RESEARCH

You do not know me, andrew94. You have never played in a game with me. If this is what you based your attack on, you have absolutely no basis.

even if they dont do the research and you only did the reserach after nikanor announced he was using nk analysis, it would either be nikanor wolf or the wolves just randomly killing someone right..... (tell me if u agree on this or not)

Yes. That is the foundation of my case against Nikanor.

U DONT WANT UR BUDDY TO GET VOTED OUT SO U UNVOTED HIM WHEN HE MADE A RESPONSE.

I don't think you understand the situation, so I will explain why I unvoted. I would not have unvoted if the situation were not as dire.

We have 5 players, 3 to lynch.

2 mafia
3 town

Now, I may not believe that Nikanor is town, but I am not 100% certain -- I am not the cop, and there is no way for me to be sure of anything. Same goes for you. If Nikanor is town, the following will happen:

1 town vote + 2 mafia quick hammer = lynch

The same will happen with your vote, as I am town. There is no way for you to know this, and there is no reason for you to trust me. I'll leave it at that.

Before you say, "nobody hammered, so Equinox is wolf," nobody else is online. Come back in a few hours and you shall see. I am not going to ask you to unvote. After all, for all you know, I am the wolf, so that's not what you're going to do. What I am going to ask you to do is come back tomorrow.

If you're wolf, then all this is moot.

I am not going to vote until I am done reading I Am Innocent's posts. Netopalis, who was town, had strong suspicions on that slot, and I am going to investigate.

What you do is your business. Good luck.

[Equinox]

p.s. whats ockhams razor

This or this, pick one.

[Equinox]

That's better. It doesn't change the fact that jasonT1981 has significant scum meta on you... :/

I am willing to compromise on someone else, if time elapses and nothing happens. Time for me to do the digging I should have done on Day 2.

EBWOPreview: My, my, that was... unexpected of you, andrew94. I do not know what to say.

[Equinox]

Your accusation of Nikanor. It came out of nowhere.

[Equinox]

So does Neto. So does Locke.

Netopalis flipped town, so that's irrelevant.

Hmm... Locke Lamora has your scum meta? That changes things. That makes the NK a roulette.

Slightly less suspicious, a bit more willing to compromise. 101 posts, here I come!

[Equinox]

"Meta" is the word we like to use when we're talking about using information outside of the game to influence our decisions. I was referring to jasonT1981 and Locke Lamora having information about how Nikanor plays scum/wolf, hence "scum meta."

[Equinox]

ARGH.

So, I finished reading I Am Innocent's 101 posts. The problem I'm having now is my read on him is shaky. I

still

have a town read on him, but these cases people are making or have made (Locke Lamora, Netopalis, Nikanor, to some limited extent Sotty7) place a paranoia stamp on it. I will need to look them up, look at IAI's responses, and then shoot my brains out for sheer frustration.

I said earlier I was willing to compromise by moving to IAI if my read produced anything, but it hasn't, so... no.

Further, reading IAI's posts reminded me of the situation on Day 2, which got me to peg ToG as more scummy than he was before. I need to look at that, too. mb53 was fine-ish, early ToG was fine-ish, and then the later ToG actively lurked. Nikanor... is difficult. My experience with someone supposedly playing by gut (Ellibereth) has me quite wary. On the other hand, Nikanor has funny reactions. Bleeeehhhh.

Not sure what to make of either NomDePlume or Locke Lamora... erk. I also need to verify that Locke Lamora has had history with Nikanor as Nikanor claims.

In this post, Equinox makes some onomatopoeia and waffles.

[Equinox]

locke and iai u have 12 hours to say something

Patience, andrew94. We have at least two weeks left to decide, and we're in a win-or-lose situation right now. This requires a lot of time.

[Equinox]

if equinox is wolf then her arguments are bullshit
her arguments her bullshit
shes wolf!

Circular logic.

[Equinox]

dam = =

That wasn't the response I expected. Why did you say this?

[Equinox]

if equinox is wolf then her arguments are bullshit
her arguments her bullshit
shes wolf!

Circular logic.

dam = =

I don't think you copied this from the wiki. Now why did you say "Damn" after I countered your accusation?

[Equinox]

No.

Equinox: if your stance hasn't lessened, why the unvote? This, once again, makes no sense.

We're in LyLo. Besides, Nikanor's vote didn't make sense to me.

[Equinox]

andrew94 makes a good point.

Though the distinct lack of vote piling makes me wonder if I Am Innocent isn't scum. Then again, nobody's been posting at the same time...

I said I'd look through people's posts, but I haven't gotten around to doing that yet.

Locke Lamora, if I were scum and wanted to distance from my partner, I wouldn't do it in LyLo when Nikanor is already receiving heat. Just sayin'.

[Equinox]

Possibly. That would be a brave move, yes.

[Equinox]

Equinox and Locke Lamora haven't been on at the same time. (I know I'm not scum anyway, so...)

What makes you think andrew94's explanation isn't plausible?

[Equinox]

We're a volatile crowd. That's risking 3 townies quick-lynching. (I know that's kind of a stretch, but... it's a possibility in a realm of possibilities.)

Hmm... I see what you're saying, though. Some of us may be willing to lynch Nikanor, but we don't have the buddy yet.

EBWOPreview: andrew94-Equinox team was impossible from the start. He's been accusing me since the beginning of time; that's too much to be considered bussing or distancing. I see your point about andrew94 and Locke Lamora posting at the same time... Hmm. It was just those two posts, though, so it's harder to tell. (I don't think that's the scum team we're looking for, anyway.)

I still say andrew94's explanation is plausible. For all we know, he's posting his own thoughts on the matter.

[Equinox]

Don't really know why scum would leave him alive if they were going to create this situation.

I think the current situation was unexpected. andrew94 may have been universally accepted as town as of Day 2, but his eye had been Equinox for most of the game, and it was unlikely that he'd ever move off; it would've been easy to get him to lead a mislynch and lose the game.

A miracle happened... and he unvoted. Yep, unexpected it was.

[Equinox]

equinox 1 andrew
iai 1 nik
nik 1 equinox

I unvoted. Locke Lamora voted I Am Innocent.

Equinox: It might be because andrew isn't as big an idiot as you seem to be making him out to be.

Apparently. It seems I've been underestimating him for most of the game. I'll say more in post-game.

---

This was

really

unexpected. I never thought I would get to decide whether or not to hammer. (I'm not deciding hammer, but hey.)

I haven't read all that stuff I said I would, so I'll have to

find the motivation to

get around to that.

andrew94, you should probably vote. Waiting for me before voting would be fine, too, though I hope you'll consider rereading the game before voting.