Mini 1005: Mafiaphobes! (Game over)

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

Vote: diddin

Sonic the Hedgehog 2

is awesome.

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

Vote: Friend

I don't wanna be frieeeeeeeeeeends.

Scums do not have friends. They have enemies.

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

1) Are you scum?

I am not a scum. BTW, I heard this question was made to gain reactions, which worked well in Mini 955.

2) What's the role you prefer to play (nothing to uncommon please), which role do you prefer between townie and scum?

Pointless rolefishing question.

3) What role you hate having in the setup/play against (nothing uncommon please)?

See above.

4) What do you think about bandwagons in early game, what in late game?

Bandwagons are a necessity for us to lynch people. Without bandwagons, there are no lynches. And without lynches, town cannot survive. Early game, it should gain reaction out of a person and that's a great way to bring us out of RVS/RQS. Later in the game, it should be useful for lynching people. Nothing wrong with mindless bandwagoning early in the game, but if you're going to join a bandwagon when we've already gotten something serious out of it, you need some decent reasons of your own before doing so, otherwise, it'll look like you're following the crowd.

5) How would you characterize your playing style?

I don't consider myself a good player, so I don't have a solidified style. However, I'll try to answer this to the best of my ability:

I tend to suspect a lot of people during the game. That means if this game is active, expect me to be looking at around three players, maybe four. Now I don't have the "Everyone is scum!" mentality, but I tend to suspect a lot of people at a time. In most circumstances, I tend to be active in my games, as I do promise strong commitment from me here in this game.

6) What do you think about RVS?

I slightly prefer RQS, but RVS is still a good method on how to start a game. It's a great way to gain reactions from other people and get us into serious scum hunting. Plus from my experience, games tend to go faster with RVS. However, one major disadvantage is that we run the risk of early lynching, which we do not want. Early lynching gives us almost no information to work on the next day. I also personally think we can gain more information with RQS. But then again, RQS has disadvantages as well, but I'm not going into that.

7) How do you hope to find scum?

I will be looking at numerous tells: Distancing, contradictions, hypocrisy, WIFOM, OMGUS, and other things.

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

I don't agree with SSBF on the last part. (before the scum tells)
I was in a game where town quicklynched scum on page 2 post 50. They gained a lot of insight just from that speed lynch.

You can gain more informations with more posts. Let's say that the particular person gets lynched and flips scum, only that it's at the end of the deadline with more posts. That means there's more data to analyze then you had with fifty posts. It gives us more oppertunity to search through posts for connection and makes finding scums easier.

question 2/3 are not role-fishing... I honestly want to know from you which role you prefer to play and which roles you don't like to play against (or with)...
this can be used later in the game for analysis of posts...

Those questions are rolefishing because they can potentially reveal town power roles. If you are scum, then that means you could use those data to kill a potential power roles. And tell me, how can the question be used for analysis?

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

1. not answering questions is denying information... and thats scummy

No, not answering RQS questions is not scummy, it's a personal choice. Later on, when you're actually asking questions that actually contribute to the game, ignoring it constantly is scummy, but choosing not to answer RQS questions isn't scummy. This is why having a mixture of RVS and RQS is the best way to start a game IMO.

definitely town... scum already has (almost) all information they need... if I know more about you, it will be easier for me to find out whether you are scum or not...

The scums know who are the townies and who are the scums. But like townies, they can learn more. Information is helpful to town, but the downside is that they can sometimes be helpful mainly to scums. Scums want power roles dead before normal townies and by asking those questions, you are giving the scums an advantage.

I like the case on Tasky so far.

Unvote, Vote: Tasky

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

@Friend: As you wish:

ISO: 1 Does RQS. His RQS questions are mostly good, but #2 and #3 indicates rolefishing.

ISO: 2 Gives poor reasons for voting vezokpiraka, sounds like OMGUS.

ISO: 3 Response to first quote is not a solid defense. I counter attack him in #30, saying that the questions were rolefishing because they could potentially reveal town power roles, something that we do not want to do. I also noticed that he has not answered the question I asked at the end of #30.

ISO: 4 Performs a major contradiction. At the top of the paragraph, he said it was just for him to get a sort of a personality profile. In his response to jayfl383, he said that not answering the questions were scummy. See #43 for more information about the contradiction.

ISO: 5 Said that having personality profiles were town. Claims that scum already has almost all the information that they needed. Goes on to say that the more he knew about the person, the easier it was to find if the person is scum. I counter-respond to that paragraph in #47. I say that information is beneficial to town, but sometimes, they can help scums more then town. Tasky's second and third questions are examples of informations that benefit scums more then town.

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

the highlighted part reeks... you think that creating information can hurt town?

Read the post. I said that information is helpful to the town, but sometimes, they benefit scums more then town. But generally, no, they do not hurt the town because without information, town cannot make informed lynch decisions.

how exactly are those questions supposed to give the scum information on the power roles?

They have a preference for a role. Those two questions can help scums pin down which townsperson has a power role and which doesn't.

For example, if I did answer both of your question, scums could use my answers to help indicate which role I might have and which role I might not have. Sure the person could be a Vanilla Townie, but they could very well be giving out there role for the game without knowing it. This puts townies in even more risks for a Night Kill then they already are.

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

I'm starting to become suspicious of Friend. I'll explain:

ISO: 11: Okay, he said that he didn't understand Oso's contradiction accustion against Tasky. Goes on to say that he doesn't want to continue to defend Tasky because he found Tasky pretty scummy anyways. Okay, fair enough.

However, the problem is that despite him saying he doesn't want to defending Tasky, he does exactly that. First sign of Tasky defense is ISO: 12, where he asks me to provide a case against Tasky in my own words, which I did. Continues with ISO: 13 where he continues to say he has trouble seeing the contradiction and that Tasky didn't refuse to answer any questions, just say that it would help him scum hunt.

ISO: 17 is the one that I despise the most. I don't like how he's trying to give Tasky a n00b pass in this game.

I also want people to refer back to ISO: 11 again. There, he said that Tasky was pretty scummy anyways. If that is that case, why defend a person you believe to be scummy?

If Tasky flips scum, this will sound like that Friend was defending his scum buddy. ISO: 12 is possible chainsaaw defense as well.

IGMEOY: Friend

Guys, take a look at Tasky's join date, posting style, etc. Now tell me, do you really think he's good enough to subtly rolefish like that as scum? Cause I really don't.

I am not going to give him a pass based on his join date and posting style. If he expected mercy from me, he would get it at the Newbie games. Any other sections of Mafia and he deals with the best of my ability and nothing but the best.

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

@q21: ISO: 0 - Absolutely hate this. I see absolutely no purpose of that self-vote, especially since we're already getting something to work on in this game.

SSBF. Think about it, now. I'm not defending Tasky on anything else except the rolefishing accusations, because I do NOT think Taskyscum is capable of thinking "hm I'll try and out some PRs with these RQs" in a million years.

No matter how you defended a person, the point is that you defended a person and that will not change. Even if it was defending Tasky's rolefishing accustions, a defense on a person is a defense on a person.

talking about contradictions... first you say my RQS questions are good (save 2/3) and then you say voting for not answering them is poor reason... since we were in RVS and any reason, no matter how poor is better than no reason, this means it was no reason...
so you are saying that not answering good RQS questions is less a reason than RVS voting... that seems wrong

People can choose to participate in either RVS, RQS, or both. Most of your RQS questions are good, but it should be a matter of personal prefrence to answer RQS question, not an obligation.

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

Some things about diddin that I really don't like about him:

ISO: 4: Votes Tasky due to the contradiction that Oso pointed out at Tasky. Sounds like a bit of sheeping, especially since he doesn't provide his own reason for voting vezokpiraka.

ISO: 7: Puts a FoS on vezokpiraka due to the backpeddling. This is probably influenced by Friend's #98 where he said that vezokpiraka's unvote especially reeked because in his next post, he said that vezokpiraka called Tasky scum. The paragraph where diddin FoS'd vezokpriaka is also basically parroting Friend's last post.

ISO: 9: Unvotes vezokpiraka due to bandwagon going too quickly. If he was at L-1, then I could understand, but vezokpiraka was at L-2, so it doesn't make sense to unvote. The votecount probably would have stop further voting of vezokpiraka for awhile anyway. Beside, it's good to pressure people anyway.

diddin's play looks relatively oppertunistic and not in a good way. It seems like he's trying to join bandwagon so he doesn't have to make real cases on people on his own instead see what other people have to say and go from there.

ITT defending people is a scumtell

I'm not saying Tasky is or isn't scum, which Jay doesn't seem to get. I'm saying he was NOT rolefishing with his RQs. Nothing more, nothing less.

Defending people is a scum tell, period. Defending a person establish a connection between you and that person you're defending. If the person you're defending flips scum, this can help people catch you if you're scum. If you're town, it's going to make you look bad. And it does not matter how you defended Tasky, it is still a scum tell.

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

wow... where did you get that from? I don't like people who use such generalized statements to support their arguments... mafia doesn't work that was, every situation is new...

Every situation is new, that is true, but the same scum tells can be committed by scums. Scums will frequently use AtE, defending a person, IIoA, and other things. A person defending a town read can very well be scum defending a scum.

and pointing out a logical fallacy in an attack is somehow a form of defense, isn't it? would you call that a scum-tell?

That makes no sense. In the eleven posts I've made in this game, I cannot remember a single time that I defended a person. I also fail to see how pointing out a logical fallacy on a person is a scum tell. If I attack a post, it's because I find it scummy, not because I want to defend a person.

SSBF, what if the person I'm defending flips town? Is that still a scumtell?

No, but the thing is,

we don't know

if the person is town or not. The only way to find out is to lynch the person. Unless you yourself are scum, you have no knowledge of who is town and who is scum, so until then, I consider you guilty until Tasky's alliance is proven.

Defending people I think is town is how mislynches DON'T occur.

Just because you defend the person who you have a town read on doesn't mean that the person won't be lynched and it also doesn't mean the person is town-aligned.

If that person flips scum, well then I look pretty bad, and I agree hardcorely defending someone who flips scum warrants serious suspicion. BUT if they flip town, it's definitely NOT a scumtell, and until Tasky flips, it's not a scumtell either.

So you're saying that a series of chainsaw defenses on a person (Although you haven't done it, just saying) isn't a scum tell? Doing that would be a pretty obvious indication that you and another person might be linked.

Heaven forbid I have a differing opinion on a player from someone else, amirite? That was a very foolish statement, methinks.

I never said it's wrong to have a differing opinion on a person. If you gave a simple town read with decent explanation on why and not continue to further defend the town read, then it isn't a problem. What is a problem is going and deliberately defending the person. It establish links between a person and makes you scummier, especially if the person flips scum.

Bullshit. There are situations where it is not. Situations where it is even a towntell. You're trying to turn a circumstantial point into a concrete one. It won't work.

Alright, show me situations where it is a towntell. Not even a nulltell, a towntell.

Town see someone self vote in their first post (even after 5 pages) and most of the time they'll laugh a little and move on. Scum on the other hand feel they need to jump on everything and as a result they jump on that self vote. On its own its hardly enough to condemn anyone, but your response and SSBF's earlier was enough to catch my attention.

I got on to you because that self-vote was completely unecessary. We were already starting to hunt for scum, so the self-vote was completely unecessary. All you needed to do was to say "Hi, I'm here, will post tomorrow", and I would understand.

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

Smash, Chainsaw Defenses aren't a scumtell unless the person someone is defending indireectly is confirmed scum. So attacking people for chainsaws D1 is just lol.

So are you saying we should ignore chainsaw defenses on other people if we don't know the people's alignments? I'd rather let people know about them now so people will more likely be able to pick up on them if Player A attacked Player C while defending Player B and Player B flips scum then ignore it until Player B flips scum.

Cop with a town result on someone.

Unless it's in a Newbie Game or in an Open game that doesn't have Serial Killer/Mafa Godfather/any role that turn up innocent although they are not town-aligned, you cannot fully trust your town investigation. Even in a game without anti-town roles that turn up innocent on investigations, there can be different variations of Cops. You could be insane, which means that you actually got an Innocent on a scum. There is no guarateen that your Innocent investigation is true in most circumstances.

Masons.

You cannot rule out the possibility of Masons being part of a scum factions as well. Maybe unlikely, but it can happen. Scum Masons can lie about there alignments as well.

That would just be boring.

And that's worse then intentionally self-voting during the scum hunting stage because?

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

Unvote

Tasky's play resemble's a townie a lot more. He is finally contributing to the game and making stances. I'll still keep a close eye on him, thought. For example, I thought his ISO of diddin and vezokpiraka contained some unecessary information, especially the points where he passes them off as null tells, those can be cut off unless he has something worthwhile to say about them. Looking forward to hearing more out of the slot.

I also need to re-read the thread to see if I can bring anything else to the table and mention who I think should be the play for ToDay.

@diddin: ISO: 9: Why have you decided against defending your actions that I brought up against you?

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

Welcome sotty7 and Humble Poirot!

---

Just want to say that I'm here. Really not much to say, as a lot of what I want to say has already been said by other people. I'll re-read everyone in ISO tomorrow and go from there.

Person A attacks Person B who is attacking Person C, so technically person A is chainsaw Defending person C. however, that chainsaw should not be a ground for voting person A unless person C flips scum. IF person C would be to flip town, would you still be suspicious of person A?

That really depends. If Person A has been relatively pro-town, then he's relatively pro-town. However, if Player A has been playing scummy, then him doing a chainsaw defense will not spare him. It will depend on how scummy the player is. If Player C flips town, then the action of Player A decides if I think he's town or scum.

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

Unvote: Vote: Humble Poirot


Humble is 100% scum, confirmed..B4 you all ask me how and why I AM 10000% about this..I will not roleclaim.....also after he is lynched and flips scum, please can I get protected tonight for obvious reasons, thanks...1 scum down!

I'm sorry, but what? How do you know he's 100% confirmed scum? You haven't brought up further scummy acts that Friend/Humble Poirot has done and I find it ridiculous that anyone would have proof that a person is scum, unless you're part of the scum faction yourself. What are you going to say if "obvious scum" flips town?

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

Thoughts on a few players:

ChibiSanNub/Sotty7: He did a bit of scum hunting in those four posts, but for some reasons, never voted anyone. He also parroted me a bit. Sotty7's big posts was fantastic, however, so I have a slight town read on the slot.

vezokpiraka: Anti-town at the very best, scummy at worst. To be honest, I really do agree with the cases that people formed against him as they are very good. Some things I want to add. Look at ISO: 7. This is for sure hypocrisy. He asks Friend to provide two suspects, yet vezokpiraka has done very little to benefit the town. I also don't like how he said he was lurking. This gives him an excuse to not contribute to the game and people definently need to notice this more (Post number is #270). He shows no willingness to help town at all. So with that said, I agree to a vezokpiraka's lynch.

Vote: vezokpiraka

Friend/Humble Poirot: I was suspicious of Friend due to earlier actions that I've mentioned before. However, I personally like Humble Poirot a lot more. It's nice to see him bring new life to the thread and make strong contributations to the game. He gets a town read from me for now.

Quadz08: Reading Quadz08 in ISO, #258 feels like AtE. He admitting to having a problem with his play style instead of actually making a decent response to Poirot's case to him with Poirot made in #252. I also find it odd that despite him attacking vezokpiraka, that he's currently going after me. He showed us more evidence that vezokpiraka was scum then I was, yet has a vote one me. I also wasn't a fan of his defense of diddin as it made him look hypocritical when calling me out for "defending is a scum tell.". The case against Quadz08 is decent as well. Willing to lynch him if vezokpiraka doesn't ge through ToDay.

KageLord: While I didn't like how he gave outs in his ISO of vezokpiraka and I thought discussing times were unecessary, he's made pretty strong contributations to the game, especially regarding vezokpiraka. I'll give a slight town read for now.

SSBF the deadline is seemingly around the corner why has it taken you so long to back off Tasky when you really stopped pushing his case awhile ago? What are you doing to help us reach a lynch?

For your first question, it's due to my play style. I tend to keep my vote on a person longer then most people, especially when it gets near deadline. This is because I don't like being inconsistent with my game play.

As for your second question, I'm currently trying to analyze every player in this game. I tried re-reading, but I didn't get much. I'll do a second re-read of posts that occured since my last re-read and check people out in ISO (From this post, you'll see that I already did).

Just because my vote doesn't have a unique reason of its own doesn't mean that it doesn't have nay substance.

But is is better to have unique reasons for voting a person, which is more contents then just agreeing with other people.

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

We have some more time to discuss. YAY. This game is alredy getting boring. Big wall-o-texts that must be read.

I'm not sure if that was sarcasm or not, but I think you've just made a contradiction. Why say "yay" to having more time to discuss if you're bored of the game?

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

Top 3 scumspects:

1. SSBF
2. quadz
3. vezo

Okay, wait a minute, the order doesn't really make much sense. You put Quadz08 at 2nd and vezokpiraka at 3rd. Yet you pushed vezokpiraka's lynch more then quadz08's lynch, where you said he only had one post. How is that one post you called quadz08 out on makes him scummier then vezokpiraka?

What do you mean the case on quadz is good? Like, you think he is likely scum? Or could he be anti-town? Or could he just be town in a pickle?

It should be obvious that I think quadz08 is pretty scummy, so yeah, I think he's likely scum.

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

I'll look back at quadz08's original case on me:

This is part of his ISO #9. To me, what this statement boils down to is that if a player has a reasonable point saying that a player is not scum (or may not be scum, or whatever), he shouldn't bring it up if that person is thought to be scummy. That makes no sense to me. "Gee, I have this opinion that, if brought up, may keep us from lynching a townie. But that's a no-no! Only scum defend people!" I just don't see how forcing out opinions is pro-town in any way.

Putting most of your efforts toward defending a person does not always help prevent town lynches, not to mention, it can distract you from scum hunting. You should note that if you were to heavily defend a person and that person flips scum, you will probably gain a lot of suspicion for it.

SSBF made a pretty big deal about what was clearly a jokey vote. Like someone (diddin, maybe?) said earlier, it seems like he's grasping at straws. Yes, we were in the serious stage. But come on, it's a game, dangit! Let a man make a dumb joke. It meant nothing and did no harm to scumhunting. Not worth the attention it's gotten.

To be honest, the self-vote was pretty useless. I wouldn't have mind it during RVS, but all he needed to was say he was catching up and be done with it.

So you're voting someone that could only be anti-town over someone that is likely scummy?

No. vezokpiraka is always anti-town, regardless of alignments, that is why I said "anti-town at the very best". From this game, I highly doubt that vezokpiraka is just anti-town. This is scummy vezokpiraka at it's very worst.

@ SSBF: What do you think about quadz's vote on you? Why didn't you initially comment on it?

For someone who stated numerous times that I was scummy, he hasn't really brought much to the table as explained below.

As for why I didn't intially comment on it, I was trying to come up with a decent response to it, but could not think of one. At least I finally got it done.

Waiting for other scumtells to come out of him, and repeating that I think he is scum. There isn't much else to do, that I can see. I can't keep repeating the same case over and over, that would accomplish nothing, and look scummy.

This is exactly what you've been doing for the most post. Since your case on me started at ISO: 21, the only major points I can remember you adding are "gut" and "SSBF is ignoring my vote one me!". That really isn't doing much for your case on me. You also claim that you can't repeat the same case over and over again, yet you lacked new material for a case against me.

Now, SSBF. How serious do you think this post was. What was the point for calling a contradiction in the same sentence when you answered yourself? Wouldn't you agree this looks like active lurking from your part? As in, post void of content without openly showing so.

I'm not sure how I answered the questions myself that I asked to vezokpiraka. I looked at the quote and I saw none of it. I also highly disagree that it was actually active lurking, especially since I was trying to accomplish finding scums toward this quote (And of course many other ways).

SSBF: So you think it's likely that quadz and vezok are scumbuddies?

I would say so. His case on vezokpiraka was actually pretty good, but then over two things he found scummy with me, he switch his vote over me, adding little material to my case since then. Depending on the flip of vezokpiraka (If vezokpiraka gets lynched ToDay), I will look at quadz08 ISO for connections between him and vezokpiraka.

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

@xvart: You seem to be absolutely certain that quadz08 is scum regardless of circumstances. What if quadz08 flips town? What will you say?

@SSBF - Read the information below. Do you really feel that your suspicions of vezok outweigh quadz's logic for his lynch preferences?

Yes I do. quadz08's logic for lynch preference, while doesn't make much sense, isn't enough for me to lynch him, although his scummy actions makes him a decent lynch candidate.

If you think quadz is justified in his preference, why do you think quadz believes vezok is more suspicious than me?

I personally don't think that quadz08's lynch choices (At least you and me) makes much sense. He's added little to both cases formentioned. But to answer your question, this could be because he pushed vezokpiraka harder then you overall.

Also, why is your case stronger than what I have outlined?

vezokpiraka seems to not care about the game and goes to active lurk with nearly every post he's done. His posts has been completely void of contents and show no willingness to scum hunt. Lynching him will heavily reflect on Oso who stated numerous times that he doesn't want vezokpiraka lynched. If you want a larger summerization of vezokpiraka's scumminess, I'll provide it.

What are the differences? Specifically? And in games where he is just simply anti-town town, how is he dealt with there?

1. He is very active as a town. Here, he started out very active, but then drops to inactive level. I have not seen this out of town vezokpiraka.

2. He simply doesn't do much as a town when he is town. Here, his agenda has been more malicious in nature.

To answer your second question, they get annoyed at his anti-town play, but doesn't push for his lynch due to meta. He is explicitly anti-town but not explicitly scummy.

It still doesn't sound like you are too confident in vezok flipping scum. How about you look for those connections now? Or, even better, if vezok and quadz are likely scumbuddies, why don't you join the quadz bandwagon which has an actual case on him instead of just anti-town vs. scum rhetoric to support it?

The reason why I'm not looking at connections right now is because you have no knowledge of quadz08's alignment if you are a townie. If I were to do that now, had my big post about connections between quadz08 and other people and quadz08 flips town, that's a project down the drain. It's best to wait until a flip happens to decide whenever or not to look at connections.

However, quadz08 is likely scum as you have pointed out numerous times. Since he is at L-1, I am still willing to hammer if it becomes certain that quadz08 is the play for ToDay. However, this is not guarateen as quadz08 is at L-1 while vezokpiraka is at L-3. That is enough time to get vezokpiraka lynched.

(I know, I know, I can hear the shouts of "hypocrite!" already.)

Why are you so concerned about commiting a scum tell? A town would be more focused on finding scums then avoiding suspicion.

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

@xvart: Going deeper into "what if quadz08 flips town scenario":

1. What would that say about me and diddin, since we're considered by you quadz08's scum partners?
2. Who would be your third lynch candidate?
3. Would you analyze the bandwagon that you've created for scums?

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

I disagree with this. I think townies are very much concerned with avoiding suspicion, because if they play scummily, then they get mislynched, wasting time and helping the scum. I have very clearly failed in this regard.

Avoiding suspicion should be town's least of worry. If they cannot take down the scums, scums will win the game. Only scums have to be concerned about avoiding suspicion.

How likely do you think it is quadz will flip scum?

Based off evidence supporting that he's scum, I'd say it's pretty unlikely. I'm 70% sure that he'll flip scum. While with vezokpiraka, I'm 85% sure, since he has more evidence supporting his scumminess.

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

Some things I've found that I didn't like about vezokpiraka:

ISO 0: While Tasky did ask some questions that I was concerned about in #23 (I was talking about #2 and #3), the rest of his questions are actually pretty good. However, vezokpiraka refuses to answer any questions but #6. He also said that asking questions were things that scums do, which I found absurb, as liking RQS is a preference, not a scum tell.

ISO 1: Here, he claims that we could gain a lot of information out of a quick lynch. This is a very faulty statement. I saw a game that quick lynched a scum 3 1/2 of a page Day 1 and still got little information out of it. I wouldn't be surprised if his example was in RVS.

ISO 2: While I do agree with not liking Tasky's #2 and #3, I'm not sure why he would dismiss the potential usefulness for #1. He also said that the play style question was useless because it gives players the oppertunity to self-meta and that it wouldn't help scum hunt. I'm not sure how the play style question was malicious at all and letting people know each other play styles is actually not that bad. ISO: 3 attack on the same subject does not help at all.

ISO 5: He complains about people giving Tasky a noob pass, yet receiving votes himself for sheeping, which should not be excused, regardless of experience and alignments.

ISO 9: He claims that he his scum hunting, yet after thirty-six posts, he has done almost nothing for the town. I also don't like how he tries to excuse the six minutes ordeal KageLord made by saying "My phone rang in a middle of a post", which IMO, is not a decent explanation and feels like a form of AtE.

ISO 28: Absolutely disliked how he claims that his vote is still in KageLord, yet he moves his vote to quadz08. This is definently bandwagoning without legit reasons, as he has not expressed previous suspicion on quadz08, plus that he still considered KageLord his top suspect.

These are just things that I could find myself. Other things that have been brought up against him is that he has done almost nothing for the town, he is guilty of sheeping, he's made hypocritical statements, other bandwagoning instances, OMGUS votes, etc. His play is very scummy and it does not look like he will improve. The sooner his lynch come, the better.

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

@xvart: quadz08 has flipped town. Please answer these questions:

1. What would that say about me and diddin, since we're considered by you quadz08's scum partners?
2. Who would be your third lynch candidate?
3. Would you analyze the bandwagon that you've created for scums?

@Tazaro: Who are your suspects and why do you suspect them?

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

@Tazaro: 1. Wait a minute, a person sounding like that he's intelligent makes you more suspicious of that person when he does something? That makes very little sense.

2. Why should we think that we're going to mislynch Day 1? It's best to kill off scums as soon as possible, not go "Oh, Day 1 is mislynch Day, let's find scums tommorow!", which is a horrible mentality.

3. We should not be concerned about a lack of a Night Kill on a townie.

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

2. I don't know. Why do you ask?

Considering that having at least three anti-town players is very likely, I wanted to know if you had a third suspect or not. It's not something I would go all over you for, thought.

It's good that there is "we who survive." I'm not denying that; I have to see how Poirot does things later, but I learned that scum aren't going to pop out of the woodwork day one mostly likely; forgive me for instances of run-on sentences, I'm just tired and being in plenty of games I've got to conserve my energy in typing words before bedtime so I'm more lucid.

If you are tried, don't post. Also, if you seriously want us to think that Humble Poirot is scum, find evidence of him being scummy. Right now, your pushing of Humble Poirot is unconvincing.

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

Quadz08's Bandwagon Analysis

quadz08 (7) Humble Poirot, xvart, vezokpiraka, q21, Oso, diddin, Tazaro

Humble Poirot

: His case on quadz08 starts off very well and his pushing of him remained strong throughout the rest of the game. I liked how he always add new materials to his argument aganist quadz08, but not go as far as to tunnel him throughout the game, as he does look at other people as well. Seems town-intended.

xvart

: Another person who pushed strongly for quadz08's lynch. He started to attack quadz08 in ISO 5 where he gave him a FoS. Push quadz08 again starting in ISO 15 and proceed with a vote in ISO 19. Then his activity goes us considerably. His push for quadz08's lynch is more strightforward then Humble Poirot's and he approaches it in a different angle. Definently had town motivations for it.

vezokpiraka

: ISO 28 makes absolutely no sense. He said his vote is still on KageLord, yet he switched his vote to quadz08. This is giving me the feeling that he's buddying up to what xvart said about quadz08 so he is not responsible for providing his own thoughts on him. He does almost nothing to help lynch quadz08. Despite him being early in the bandwagon, this does not give him the freedom to ride it out without explaining why he finds quadz08's suspicious. All this makes it likely that he had a scum motivation for lynching quadz08.

q21

: Only really mentions suspicion on quadz08 once during Day 1 and it was in his last post of Day 1. At least he adds something to why he thought quadz08 was scum. Not sure of motive.

Oso

: Another person that didn't do too much to push the quadz08's lynch, although it seems genuine as he at least gives xvart some credit for his case instead of basically leeching off of it (Like vezokpiraka). Currently null on motive on lynching quadz08.

diddin

: I don't know, something about him being on the bandwagon doesn't really stick out well to me. Overall, he didn't really add much material to why he found quadz08 scummy, although then again, neither did q21 and Oso. He claimed that the main reason why he had quadz08 as his second suspect was because mainly of xvart's point against him. Then why didn't he add it earlier when mentioning his scum list? Need to take a closer look at him.

Tazaro

: I understand he replaced near the end of the deadline, but that didn't mean he should have immediately hammered quadz08. He gave no explanation on why he found quadz08 scummy. Here in ISO 10, he uses statistics to say that he was probably town, which is a really bad reason for calling a person town. Not a fan of his hammering without explaining his suspicion on quadz08.

I'll need to re-read vezokpiraka, diddin, and Tazaro closer in ISO, but for now, I think these are the most likely scums in the game. I will decide my vote from there and give my opinion on all three players.

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

I said I did not suspect quadz08. I made it clear that it's an information lynch.

Yes but everyone else on the bandwagon (vezokpiraka is a possible exception) wanted quadz08 lynched. I'd rather lynch scum then lynch for the sake of information.

^my other two suspects, honestly, are ? and ?.

I thought they could be any of Humble Poirot, xvart, and jayfl383. You did not answer sotty's question.

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

*SNIP*

If the person is indeed a Vigilante, then he is the real deal.

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

Oh shit, I just accidentally quoted a post from an ongoing game.

Also, this is not a claim.

Mod, could you delete #452? The quote is from an ongoing game. Or at least edit the quote out.

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

diddin

: I'm kind of "meh" on him. I know he's in the game and he hasn't completely neglected to help town, but I feel he's just there, making enough post to avoid suspicion for me. Granted, I haven't seen many things that I would consider to be majorly scummy from him (His opportunistic play doesn't sit well with me, thought), but I'll keep a close eye on him.

Tasky/Tazaro

: Tasky started out pretty badly for me and he was my top suspect for a long time. He did get better with his play, thought and did a little scum hunting, so he was left with a slightly scummy read from me.

Tazaro makes me more suspicious of him. First off, I really disliked his hammer. It was clearly evident that he did not read the thread or at least skim it. His claim that it was an informational lynch for him is not thinking for the town, as everyone else except vezokpiraka wanted quadz08 dead and thought he was scum. He tries to justify statical results as a reason for a mislynch, which is a pretty crappy explanation for a mislynch. Telling us to be aware that almost every Day 1 lynches will be mislynches and then saying we should have a mindset that it will probably be a mislynch makes absolutely no sense, as town should not be going like "Oh, Day 1 is mislynch Day and later on, we have a chance of finding scums.". Pretty scummy read from him.

vezokpiraka

: I have already given my arguments for a vezokpiraka's lynch near the end of Day 1 and I absolutely hate the way he joined quadz08's bandwagon, giving absolutely no reason for suspecting him and basically got a free ride on the quadz08 bandwagon (Glad to see people picking that scum tell up).
#446 is just awful as he sounds desperate to deflect the large amount of negative attention on him on diddin.

I am willing to lynch either vezokpiraka or Tazaro today, with a preference toward vezokpiraka:

Vote: vezokpiraka

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

I disliked Tazaro's contradiction that he made. #460, he agrees that vezokpiraka is an easy target. Yet in #463, he thought the post striked him as vezokpiraka being overly offensive about him calling vezokpiraka a weak player. That makes no sense.

You say I am a weak player.
Scum always try to force a mislynch on me.

If diddin flips town tazaro should be the next to go.

Seriously? You go after Tazaro for calling you a weak player, yet say scum always try to mislynch you. You just told us the main reason why you're a weak player and the logic makes no sense.

I absolutely fail to see why calling someone a weak player is a scum tell in any shape or form. It is semi-common opinion that we are not a fan of you're playstyle. This is not something you should lynch over and it feels like a form of OMGUS to me.

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

If Tazaro continues to defend vezokpiraka in the magnitude he's doing it, depending on vezokpiraka's flip, it is really going to bite him in the back later on. The main defense Tazaro uses on vezokpiraka is playing the meta and VI card for him and I don't buy the defense, especially when another person is doing it for them. Further establishing the potential connection between both of them is that Tazaro is hardcore defending vezokpiraka. Take notes here as if vezokpiraka flips scum, Tazaro is probably scum as well (Tazaro is still possible scum even if a vezokpiraka town flip happens, since he is scummy independent of vezokpiraka's alignment).

@Tazaro: You seem to know a lot about vezokpiraka's meta. Have you played a game with him or are you in an ongoing game with him. Furthermore, why do you keep defending vezokpiraka with the "meta/VI" excuse so much?

@Aranneas: Honestly, I wanted others to cobble together what information they could derive from the lynch. As a replacement, I'm not the one who is most equipped to do that.

Regardless of being a replacement or not, it's not like you can't find information on your own instead of asking other people on the quadz08 to give you the information for you. Yes you are equip to find information from the lynch on your own, choosing not to do it is lazy on your own behalf.

I am not offended. If I was I should hyave been dead or something.

To be honest, I really did think you overreacted in #459. When you go as far as to call a lynch on a person that said you were a weak player, that's a problem right off the bat.

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

Vote on Vezo. Read him in ISO and going to go out on a limb here and say that I don't think his vote would have changed even to avoid a no-lynch

(@SSBF, if you did say that you would hammer to prevent no-lynch I missed it. Point out where and I'll retract this)

. Pretty much has stuck to a vezo lynch and I got the impression nothing was budging him off that for Day 1. Reinforced by the fact he is back on vezo today.

I think I said a few times that I would hammer quadz08 if it became apperent that he was going to be lynched. This is what I could find in my ISO:

Willing to lynch him if vezokpiraka doesn't ge through ToDay.

Since he is at L-1, I am still willing to hammer if it becomes certain that quadz08 is the play for ToDay.

This means that I was willing to hammer quadz08 if his lynch became certain. Had I gotten up early enough at the day of the deadline, I would have placed the hammer on quadz08 before Tazaro did to prevent a No Lynch. Just because a person is not my top suspect doesn't mean I'm going to let a No Lynch go through, especially when it's a person I already thought was scummy.

Bugs me. Granted, uncontrolled, public speculation of why it happened would be harmful at this point but complete unconcern would be equally as harmful. Something happened in the game that is not normal for night one of a mafia game. If nothing else, acknowledging that fact and getting people to think as to reasons WHY it might have happened is a good thing even though over-discussing it in the thread at this point would be counter productive. Everyone should be giving considerable thought on reasons why it may have happened, in my opinion, and trying to see if they can make those reasons fit even if they don't want them discussed right now. So for that comment, my estimation of his alignment took a slight hit.

I did say we shouldn't be concerned about the lack of a Night Kill, that is true. However, I did not say that we should not have any form of discussions regarding the lack of a Night Kill nor am I attempting to stop discussion regarding it.

Another obvious benefit to the lack of a Night Kill is that we have more mislynches to use. Assuming this is a three-scum set-up, had we received a Night Kill, two mislynches would result in a scum win. Since we got lucky and we don't have a Night Kill, three mislynches would result in a scum win. This buys us more time to find scums and increases the chance of a town win.

However, I will give my thought on what could have caused the lack of a Night Kill as said before, I don't mind it. My opinions on the three options you've presented:

1. Highly unlikely. A smart scum would never want to forfeit a Night Kill, one of their best weapons against the town.

2. A role that pops into my mind is a Serial Killer, which is usually bulletproof. However, as we did not receive a kill yesterday, we probably don't have an independent role. Mafia Godfather is another possible NK-immune role, althought this isn't a staple in Mafia Godfather roles. I can't really see this being on a townie, thought.

3. Most likely out of the three. Most Mini's have a Doctor as part of the set-up. As we do not have a Night Kill, we probably have a Doctor.

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

What is scummy about Tazaro independent of vezo?

Obvious I hated Tazaro's hammer as he just came by and said "Oh, here's the hammer even thought I know the person is probably going to flip town.". Even if it's close to the deadline, a person who genuinely thought he was scummy should have hammered, not a person who has no opinion on anyone's alignment.

His justification for his hammer on quadz08 is very weak. He tries to use static to determind that it will most likely be a mislynch, which is a given since after all, Mafia is a game of the uninformed majority trying to get rid of the informed majority. However, when it comes to scum hunting, static and evidence supporting scummy behavior do not mix with each other. Him treating it as an informational lynch isn't a much better reason either as every lynch we should attempt to hit scum and we cannot afford to lynch someone purely for information.

He suggested that since mislynches usually happen Day 1, we should think that we got a mislynch coming. I really dislike this mentality. Town should never treat Day 1 as a probable mislynch Day, they should put forth all efforts toward finding scums on that day just like in later days, less information or not.

Tazaro's play is scummy independent of vezokpiraka's alignment. He'll look a lot worse if vezokpiraka flips scum.

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

I'm personally going to believe vezokpiraka's claim now. It looks legit plus he uses evidence to prove his claim.

Unvote

@Tazaro: Please listen and stop multi-posting so often. It makes playing with you difficult and hard to read.

I played with him before. I'm defending him because he is being targetted by diddin and KageLord's tag-team of voting and I see it as a push to lynch the VI. Considering diddin's change FROM saying that Friend might be scumming so he'll look closer at Poirot TO saying he just wanted to RECONFIRM his town read on someone who he previously implied might be scum based on Friend. This change is fishy to me, and he's being very adamant about undermining what I'm saying about vezo.

The reason why I saw him trying to undermine your points about vezokpiraka is because your defense of him is horrible and if vezokpiraka were to flip scum, you would be very likely scum as well. Me and q21 were also voting for vezokpiraka, what makes our vote on him not scummy especially since diddin KageLord did most of the pushing?

This is all well and good if Tazaro was in the game since the start. He wasn't. He came in and hammered right near the deadline, no matter how you try and spin this it isn't scummy. There were no other viable wagons, little to no time to push anyone else up what did you expect him to do? I have also explained why the hammer isn't scummy during my discussion with Oso, what do you think of that?

If I had gotten to this thread early enough, I would have hammer quadz08. Not because for an informational lynch, but because I truly thought he was scummy. Scummy people are likely to flip scum. I would have felt a lot better if someone who actually suspected him hammer instead of just someone who replaced in.

And to answer your question, if you don't think the hammer is scummy, that is your own opinion, disagreeing would not put you on my scum list. I personally think it is scummy and I want to make my opinion known.

I think you are pushing a very weak case here. His fluff posting his scummy, his not reading the game is scummy and these are things you don't even mention. The hammer is probably the one thing that isn't scummy about his play so far.

The hammer isn't the only reason why I suspected Tazaro. I didn't like how he tried to justify it with static, I didn't like how he said it was an informational lynch to him while others except vezokpiraka thought quadz08 was scummy. I also didn't like how he wanted us to think that Day 1 is probably going to be a mislynch, which is a really bad mentality to have. It is more then just the hammer. Also, other things I don't like about Tazaro has already been said by other people. On top of that, I do plan on building my case on him, so what you see is not all you're going to see from me attacking Tazaro.

This wasn't part of the deal. It was supposed to be at least 3 people agreeing regardless of whether it just three.

Does it matter? No it doesn't, now it sounds like you're nitpicking.

So KageLord did something, and diddin claimed to do something. These two can easily be theorized as planning this in their conversing with each other at night... again, KageLord and diddin, that's my tag team of scumminess.
Vote: diddin

Wait, you are voting someone who's claiming a power role but not someone who targetted another person? This really doesn't make any sense, especially since you later said that KageLord has been outed.

@Tazaro #565: How could KageLord possibly be a Mafia Jailkeeper when diddin claimed the role? This seriously makes absolutely no sense.

#594: Unbelieveable. You're overreacting on a vote that isn't even on you. Seriously, think before posting.

Vote: Tazaro

Terribly misplaced logic, very poor defenses, and still makes absolutely zero sense.

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

Humble Poirot said it best, the game quality has declined. More posts do not always mean an enjoyable game. For example, Tazaro's spamming is a pain in the ass, plus I think he's scum.

Tazaro needs to seriously stop leeching off Sotty7. When you go as far as to follow a more experienced player's opinon, that's shameless bandwagoning at it's finest.

And Tazaro, for the love of god don't replace out. You replaced in for a person who would be V/LA for too long to play the game, for you to replace out via request would be disrespectful to the game. I'd rather have you lynched today.

I would have voted KageLord, but no one else was and I have wanted diddin to die; my vote is on him. Why are we believing diddin?

I need Sotty to come in here; he's got the right thinking.

I have an idea, form your own opinions. You're asking a person to come in here because you think he's right about something. Regardless of that, the fact that you want to leech off a person's opinion is horrible.

I don't have to scumhunt because didiin jailed the mafia nightkiller.

Yes you do. If you're so confident that Sotty7 is scum, why not look for connection between her and other people? That's scum hunting and you can do that now. Saying that you don't have to scum hunt is completely wrong.

I'd be an informational lynch and you'd get rid of an apparently annoying poster.

Hey hypocrite, didn't you say that quadz08 was an informational lynch? BTW, I don't want you lynched for information, I want you lynched because I honestly think you're scum.

He can't; that is the wrongest post he's made and it looks like an overreaction to my implicit idea that he's protecting Oso to me.

Don't answer for other people. vezokpiraka can answer that for himself.

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

@Humble Poirot: You putting Aranneas in the Lyncher slot instead of the scum slot is interesting. What makes you think that Aranneas is more likely a Lyncher then a Mafia?

I'm one of the VIs, aren't I? lol to that

Seriously, how could your play be described as anything but VI? You are probably one of the worst VI's players I've ever seen, even worse then vezokpiraka. You trying to laugh that off makes me want to do a huge facepalm.

2) I'm lazy and prefer to make decisions from the fresh current of posts that come in after I replace.

So you're saying that you intentionally missed out on a lot of valueable information by deciding on the "Oh, I'm not going to read this thread, even thought I could bring up some good points and help the town more." mentality? Seriously, that's lazy and really scummy.

6)SSBF really thinks I'm scum, he apparently doesn't want me to slip through. I know he wants to win, but I'm not scum, I'm just a weird player, kind of like vezo but with different things that are annoying about me.

So does everyone else on your bandwagon. Also, people play differently, but that doesn't mean they're scum. Fate (The player) plays considerably different from other players and he is very well respected in this game. Playing in a weird way does not excuse you from commiting scum tells.

Overall, I'm satisfied with this lynch. Not only do we get rid of an annoying semi-spammer of a player, he is also likely scum.

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

I agree with other people in where q21 needs more attention. I remember him being a lot more involved with the game Day 1. He didn't do nearly as much to help the town Day 2 and I feel that he's trying to avoid attention with all the drama that happened Day 2 with Tazaro/vezokpiraka where he had little involvement in. More thoughts about him later.

@diddin: Would you consider Aranneas a possible lyncher if Humble Poirot flips town? Given that he put a lot of focus on Tazaro and that he flips town, I feel that Aranneas was genuinely scum hunting instead of tunneling on him.

@xvart: 1. Good luck with your surgery. Hope you get well soon.
2. Why did you not want vezokpiraka to answer before diddin?

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

1) Are you trying to line up lynches?

No I am not. Not sure why this is lining up lynches.

2) I put focus on Tazaro so now fake arguments are not that? Aran's post is still there for you to watch it. I knew this would happen sooner or later, people would try to forget that there was no case against me and try to only remember the attack, not the content (Aran himself said he had dropped it).

I put a lot of focus on Tazaro so that makes me scummy? So that makes Aran townier and he was really scumhunting? unless I flip town and he's a lyncher?

1. Putting a lot of focus on a person does not mean a person is tunneling. Tunneling is where you put almost all of your effort toward one person being lynched. Since Aranneas was focusing on other people, I highly doubt that he's a lyncher regardless of your flip.

2. Saying you're scummy for the same thing that I consider genuine scumhunting on Aranneas's part would make absolutely no sense as I believe you deserve a similar amount of credit for your well-developed attack on Tazaro. When judging a person's attack on a person, I look at the quality of the attack, I'm not going to be bias on the matter.

3. You flipping town does not mean that Aranneas is a lyncher. Like I said, he put a lot of focus on Tazaro. If you were to flip town, while it does open up the slim possibility that he's a lyncher (I do mean slim), I still wouldn't be pushing for his lynch because his play has been generally pro-town

Also, did you even wonder about the 6 people who DID vote Tazaro? Waggon analysis this time is not important?

First question, yes I did. Second question, I will get on it tonight. If not, definently tomorrow. But most likely tonight.

---

It was not a major contradiction. It wasn't even an obvious contradiction. It was nowhere near as clear cut as you make it out to be here. Oso wrote more than one post trying to explain how this contradiction worked. SSBF is inflating the point.

I'm not asking you anythink about this game... this is just so I can get a sort of personality profile... people tend to play differently when playing roles they like than if they play roles they don't like...
just because one says he likes to play cops, that doesn't influence whether he is cop or not...

1. not answering questions is denying information... and thats scummy

Compare the two quotes. I can easily see the contradiction without having to really look hard at it. The fact that the contradiction manage to get Oso to switch his vote over to Tasky makes it relatively major and a few others caught on it, making it previous obvious that Tasky performed a contradiction. And you claim it isn't inflating.

It's worth nothing that something he seems to consider such a blatant, clear cut scumtell didn't make it into his answer to Tasky's questions about how he'd go about finding scum.

It is not necessary to put in every single scum tell you look for in an answer to Tasky's question on how to find scums. Plus you find new ways to find scums in games as you progress in your Mafia game.

---

- Regarding your argument in where I defend my position on that infamous issue, if I have an oppertunity to defense myself from the accustations made against it, I will eventually get to it. Did you seriously expect me to back down from my stance then?

---

The bolded makes no sense. quadz calls you out for your claim that defending people is a scumtell and quadz defends someone. There is no hypocrisy there, there is the complete opposite, consistency. If he'd been the one to say "defending is a scumtell" and then defended someone, that would be hypocrisy.

SSBF is trying to look like he's adding something to the quadz case that was going on, labelling something hypocrisy because it hypocrisy is a scummy buzzword - not because that's what actually happened.

Bolded: Are you ignoring the part where I called him out for using AtE and not doing a very good job with his case on me? So you're saying that I added nothing to quadz08's caes then?

I do not see a townie raising these questions before a quadz town flip. Especially not a town who has (however superficially) claimed some suspicion of quadz himself. I find it much more likely that you knew what his flip would be because you're scum and you know who's town.

The reason why I asked xvart those questions is because he was hellbent on quadz08 being scum, declaring quadz08 "certainly scum". There is always at least a chance that a person is scum, so a player cannot be 100% guarateen to be scum before a flip.

I also noticed that all your evidence is from Day 1/very early Day 2. Given that I'm your top suspect, I was kind of hoping that you would provide more recent examples of why I am scummy. Your case on me is dated.

---

Just when it is going to be appropriate for CLAIMED TOWN PRs TO START GIVING THE REST OF TOWN THEIR INFORMATION?

As soon as they are able to provide it. There are not reasons for Town PRs to hide information away from the town, it's a horrible thing to do and town needs as much information as possible and we need information to lynch scums.

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

I will get to Humble Poirot's post about me and my bandwagon analysis tomorrow. I got way too caught up in Marathon Day and a Marathon game is coming up. However, I will get those done tomorrow among other things if I find something I want to bring up. However, I do want to get to q21's point against me.

The AtE was barely that and you were wishy-washy about calling him on it.

The AtE is where quadz08 complains about his wishy-washy play style. While it isn't exactly clear-cut, it is still there.

Also, as I'm assuming you're calling me wishy-washy about my AtE attack on quadz08, I'm not seeing it. I thought I made it pretty clear that I didn't like the AtE from him.

Sentence one,: there's nothing wrong with suspecting two people at once.

That is true, but when you put more focus on someone who you suspect less then who is your top suspect, that's a problem. Your main focus should always be your top suspect. Now that doesn't mean you have to go and tunnel them until they die, but focusing more on your lesser suspicion overall then your top suspect doesn't make sense.

Sentence two: I disagree, he'd attacked vezo at one or two points along the way and he had also back off vezo for one or two points along the way; you, he set out specifically to make a case against.

What he said he didn't like out of vezokpiraka:

- vezokpiraka's calling Tasky out for "subtly" ending the RVS.
- vezokpiraka saying that quick lynches were beneficial.
- Providing very little of his opinions.
- Making a pretty heavy contradiction. Which is where vezokpiraka complains about the game getting boring because no one is asking questions to him but then saying another player needs to do his own work and not active lurk.

That's four things he's done that I can think off my head.

His case on me is quite frankly, lackluster and I already explained why it was.

The vast majority of your day 2 play is characterised by: Attacking Vezo; attacking Tazaro; attacking vezo and Tazaro together. There is also a bandwagon analysis right at the beginning of the day which is decent, but indicative of intellect more than alignment.

To be honest, you did a lot less Day 2 then I did. All you really did Day 2 was attack diddin and attack Tazaro. If you want me to name off every single thing I did Day 2, I will.

His replacing out might have filled a town spot with a more reasonable player. Reads like you're scared that if he is replaced by a reasonable player you lose your easy lynch.

I was glad that Tazaro did not replace out and it's not because he's an easy target. It's because I don't want anyone to replace a person who flaked out/went V/LA for a period that required them to replace out and then intention ask them to replace out due to pressure from other people/bad play. It's disrespectful to the players and the mod and I have low tolerance for people who replace out for reasons like that.

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

@q21: How come you were able to interact with the game more Day 1 then Day 2? I don't remember you announcing any sort of V/LA's Day 2.

---

Has he now? When? I haven't seen that. He talked in his first post (where he voted Tazaro) about some of the last posts and then poof.

I'm assuming that you're talking about if he has talked about other people. Am I reading you right?. If so, here is where he goes after other people then you and Tazaro:

ISO: 0: The same post where he voted Tazaro, he also attacked diddin and gave him a FoS. He also goes after vezokpiraka as well.
ISO: 2: Attacks diddin a little here as well.

Granted, it isn't really that much, but it is something.

Why was he pro-town?

I personally thought his case on Tazaro (At least early on) was decent and showed evidence supporting his case on Tazaro. And this:

Would you folks feel comfortable summarizing the neighbour chat from last night for our benefit? Why/why not?

Sounds like a good idea here. Unless the mod forbid us from letting that happen, this could give us information we may never know about if this didn't happen and I believe those information could be beneficial to the town.

But to be honest, thinking about it more, Aranneas is more of a null read to me. For example, I really hated his attack on you and felt it was severely reaching and especially unconvincing.

---

Anyway, onto my analysis of the Tazaro's bandwagon:

Tazaro

(6) Aranneas,

diddin

,

q21

, Super Smash Bros. Fan,

KageLord

,

vezokpiraka

Confirmed Townies

Town Reads

Scum Reads

Tazaro and KageLord are confirmed townies. As for me, no need to analysis myself when I should be looking at other people, that's for you to judge.

Aranneas:

Started out strong in his case on Tazaro but I'm surprised he makes little mention of Tazaro after ISO: 2 untl ISO: 12 and to be honest, I'm not sure why that's the case. He probably got side-tracked going after Humble Poirot. So to be honest, I'm pretty null. Positive already mentioned, with the negative being that he didn't consistency push for Tazaro's lynch Day 2 even thought he sounds like he's in full support in it.

diddin:

Probably the most well-developed case on Tazaro. Unlike Aranneas, he was somewhat consistent with attacking Tazaro and actually mentioned that he was suspicious of him before voting, so it doesn't feel like he voted him out of the blue. Based on his support of the Tazaro's lynch, I'm getting a town read from him alone (Which is supported by his jailbreaker claim, which I believe as well).

q21:

Agree with others that his vote on Tazaro sounds like it came out of nowhere. He makes no previous reference to Tazaro Day 2 before placing a vote on him. I can only remember him doing two things to support the case against Tazaro:

1. Parrot other people's reason for voting Tazaro in ISO: 25.
2. Say that AtE isn't going to win him any points.

To be honest, I don't like how he coast throughout the entire day without further push of his lynch. This sounds like scum trying to gain town cred without doing much to support the lynch himself. He's a good lynch candidate.

vezokpiraka:

His hammer on Tazaro was no short of lynch-worthy on him. He didn't even check the thread before placing a vote on Tazaro. Not checking the thread usually results in bad things for the town, especially when it comes to votes. Like q21, this vote was seriously surprising, but he's even worse then q21 because he doesn't even provide

one

semi-decent reason for voting Tazaro. Another solid lynch for today.

---

Currently I suspect vezokpiraka, q21, and to a lesser extend, Sotty7. After reading Oso's latest major post, it kind of clicks to me that Sotty7 may very well be scum and I can see the arguments for Sotty7-scum. This also renforce my scum read on vezokpiraka, which I once again agree from Oso. Combining that with his very scummy play and he deserves to be lynched today.

Vote: vezokpiraka

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

Just want to remind people that Sotty7 is at L-1.

Why vote the possible scum watcher and not the most likely scum RB? We can tie the hands of the watcher but we can't do the same with the RB.

For two reasons:

1. I originally had a town read on Sotty7 while always had a scum read of some sort on vezokpiraka. Which one do you think I'm going to vote now that they're both suspicious? It makes sense to go with someone you always suspected, especially if they remain consistency scummy. While Oso gave out some damning evidence regarding Sotty7-scum, vezokpiraka was always scummy and him watching you when he should have been watching Oso/KageLord indicates that he's more likely to be mafia.

2. I do not want to jump on a bandwagon which goes by other people reasons and not mine as well. Yes I am suspicious of Sotty7, but my reasons for suspecting her has already been said by Oso. Unless she gets so scummy that she's obvious scum, I will not vote her until I find some evidence of my own supporting her being scum.

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

@xvart: By process of elmination, that would be doctor. If you want me to explain the PoE, I will.

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

About Vezok's watch. I didn't find the anomaly in vezok's behaviour when he claimed he watched me. Did you?

To be honest, I did. Sure you're probably a Neighbor, but unlike Oso or diddin, you have no other claimed actions, if Oso/diddin is town, scums would be more likely to go after those two since they have actions that can provide a further threat to the scums during the Night.

Saying it "feels like AtE" is pretty much the definition of wishy-washy.

So wording alone is enough for you to convince yourself that I'm wishy-washy? If that's the case, then I'm not seeing how that's the case.

@SSBF, @Vezok; You think xvart is a doctor too? So what is diddin? There's two protective roles?

I believe others have said this before, but anything can happen in this set-up. From the claimed roles, it looks like we are in a swingy set-up with lots of power roles. From this and xvart's overall town play, I wouldn't be surprised if xvart himself was the doctor like he claims to be.

And if xvart is the doctor, diddin being the town jailkeeper would rely on sotty7's flip even more. If sotty7 is town, then diddin is likely a scum jailkeeper. If sotty7 is scum, then diddin is probably the town jailkeeper. In the former case, diddin should be lynched tomorrow. If the latter, then let him live..

@SSBF: How is Doctor POE, have you read the wiki? There's lots of roles that could appear in a normal game out there.

We know we have a dead cop. We also have the following claims aside from xvart's:
Tracker (Oso), Watcher (vezokpiraka), Jailkeeper (diddin), Roleblocker (Sotty7).

I don't think we have a claimed vigilante, since we've only received one kill and it was on Night 2. Given that we have a claimed Neighbor's group, a Mason group is very unlikely as a result. I don't think we have a voting role here either.

So Doctor it is.

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

this post is the first after vezok's claim he watched me. At the time, you didn't find his watch scummy. You make no mention of this issue until after Oso had raised it but you say you did see it at the time?

I read the post and I don't remember saying that I did see the watch at the time. The reason why I didn't originally find it scummy is because he was watching a player (You) who had a town read from me. However, Oso's later post discussing why Vezokpiraka watching you may have a scum motivation because Oso/KageLord were active power roles and that he may have watched you just to be safe.

Forgive me, but this sounds like poor reasoning. What would happen if there were 3 doc claims? Anything can happen too? With your apparent philosophy, counter claims would be totally useless for town

Considering that we probably have a lot of power roles, it got through my head that "anything" could happen and not taking into account bastard/theme roles.

To answer your first question, given in a twelve-player set-up, the most likely circumstance is that one of the doctor claims is true, one is a Vanilla Townie fakelclaim, and the last one is a scum claim.

So they can't be scum together? Did you read xvart's claim?

I'm not completely willing to rule out the possibility of them being scum together as I do think xvart's scenario is a possible one. However, I do feel that out of those two claims, that they're more likely to be part of different alignments. It is more likely that Sotty7 is scum then diddin based off of what happened.

Same reponse to xvart.

I really don't like how SSBF is latched on to this idea that anything can happen in this game based on the roles that have been revealed. There is a difference in a swingy game and a game where anything can occur. Based on the roles, I wouldn't even consider it swingy, but the possibility of one faction being overpowered is a possibility. Swingy games imply that one faction could have a strong lead and then the next day be totally behind, and I don't see that as the case in this game. Either the town is way overpowered or some of our claimed PRs are lying about alignment.

To be honest, I previously had no idea what a swingy set-up was, so I thought it was similar to "anything could happen" in where there was a lot of power roles involved. I will probably say that some of our roles are lying, based off Night Actions and evidence of scumminess in-game.

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

Do you agree that tracking diddin tonight will yield us important information about his alignment? What do you think will happen if we track diddin?

1. Yes I do think that. Note that I am not automatically assuming that if Sotty7 is scum, diddin isn't scum as well. If he does not use his action Night 3/claims that he was roleblocked, then he's likely scum at that point who lied about his role.

2. Tracking diddin will help determind his alignment and if he's telling the truth about his role or not. If diddin is scum, we will find out and probably lynch him for it. If he's town, then the person diddin was tracked to that diddin jailed probably had Night Actions. If it prevented a kill, the person who carried the kill will be lynched on spot.

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

I'm starting to see the case on Aranneas.

I particularly don't like how Aranneas said that "he failled the town.". Why would he be saying this, especially since he's not even close to being lynched? It also feels like a form of AtE, which annoys me as well.

I like Humble Poirot's idea for townies night actions. Looked at it and it doesn't really have any holes in it. I will support this plan.

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

Welcome to the game, charter.

I'm going to look at connection between other players and Sotty7.

SSBF, in your post 27, how do you see that question as rolefishing?

See #30 for reasons. If that doesn't work, I'll explain it to you.

SSBF, q21, thoughts?

I agree that either the tracker or the watcher is lying. In that case, I am leaning toward vezokpiraka being scum due to his overall much scummier behavior then those of Oso's. I also think that q21, a claimed Vanilla Townie, is also likely scum. I'll vote for either vezokpiraka or q21 today. I think xvart might be telling the truth. If xvart flips town, that will confirm you as town, as according to him, he protected you Night 1.

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

@charter: I am a Vanilla Townie. I didn't claim before, but I am a Vanilla Townie.

post 56 by SSBF is incrediscummy with how wordy, vague, and pointless the things he's arguing are.

Re-reading that post, I don't see how is it so increidibly scummy, when there has been scummier things that has happened. If you think that post is incredibly scummy, then what would you say for vezokpiraka's hammer on Tazaro?

Charter more like scum now.

Really? Could you provide further explanation for this? For example, why is charter's Day 4 posts scummy?

764 by SSBF looks really bad. Sotty just got caught independently by two power roles, and he's ignoring that and voting vezok.

I was not completely ignoring Sotty7's being caught by two power roles. I explained my suspicion on Sotty7 and agreed that Sotty7 could be scum, but I thought vezokpiraka was even scummier, therefore, I felt it made more sense for me to vote vezokpiraka instead of Sotty7.

Charter is confirmed lyncher cause there is no way three replacements ofund the same spot scummy.
Scum would be stupid to kill or roleblock me just based on my play.
I was town PR in a game and the scum left me alive hoping to force a lynch on me in LyLo.
I was confirmed town in another game and got to endgame. Confirmed town from day 1

1. It's possible that charter is a Lyncher, but he is by no means "confirmed" in any sense so far. That statement makes no sense.

2. Even if you were confirmed townie in that other game, you are not confirmed townie in this game. Your role is confirmed, but not your alignment. Please tell me how this relates to this game.

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

@vezokpiraka: Absolutely hated the Oso vote. Your vote is on a very likely townie who IMO has done little to catch my attention in terms of scumminess. Your reason for voting Oso also makes no sense.

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

why did you wait so long to claim?

As suggested by my signiture, I'm semi-V/LA due to school taking up a lot of my time. As a result, sometimes, I am not able to make a substantial post. Also, I want a post to have at least some substance in it.

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

Vezokpiraka's flip-flopping on his xvart read should be noted. #877, he claims that xvart's plays resembles town, that it had scums on his bandwagon, and that xvart was 90% townie. Now #891. He changes his view on xvart and it's really bad, even for a bad bandwagon like xvart's.

---

Opinion on the two major bandwagons:

Xvart:

I will not be happy with xvart's lynch. The main reason for the case on xvart is that two protection roles seems unlikely. I don't buy this as a good enough reason to vote him. Maybe two protection roles are unlikely, but what matters the most is the game play. Unless it's something like a cop getting a guilty on a person or a tracker being tracked to someone who killed a person, game play of a person should take priority. I think xvart is town.

vezokpiraka:

Best lynch of today, bar-none. While he may have a Watcher claim, that was the only thing that saved him from a lynch Day 2. We should not go lightly on him anymore just because of his claim. Just look at his play. He will not be benefitting the town much regardless of alignment, he is so scummy. For him to ride to a victory just because of the claim would be a shameful thing to do.

---

Your last question is fearmongering.
I really think you are scum now xvart.

I don't see how xvart's last question was scummy at all. You are strecthing this.

Vote: vezokpiraka

Yes I understand that I am putting him at L-1, but let me ask you this;

Which person is a better lynch?

A person who has been acting very scummy all game and will probably flip scum or a person who might be scum because two protection power roles sounds a bit much for a Mini Normal?

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

Looks like I've been lynched. Might as well bow out and admit that I'm scum now since I have no other scum partners in the game. Still, this has been a pretty enjoyable game for me and I do commend how town manage to come off out of a bad position.

More thoughts later when I get the time (I have a lot of homework to catch up on and some studying to do, so don't be surprised if final thoughts on the game from me doesn't come until tomorrow).

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

@xvart: Here's our Mafia Quick Topic: http://www.quicktopic.com/44/H/4YHtKiHBhjpRc

Decent amount of activity and I feel that I learn a few things from it. The most important thing is this; never lurk under pressure regardless of alignment. This has gotten me killed in a few games and I hope that from now one, this will end.

I agree with Diddin's MVP's award for this game. Oso and Humble Poirot were my strongest fake-town reads and I can see them being very strong players in the future. Looking forward to playing with both of them again. Sotty7 played a great game and had it not been for the roleblocker dillema, she probably would have survived to endgame.

xvart played an fantastic game as well. Knowing that I was scum, I had a plan that Day 5 if I wasn't caught by Oso (Which turned out to be the case), I would have pushed for q21's lynch and then betray xvart during Lylo and lynch him. I think that xvart's doctor protection on Humble Poriot played a considerable part in town's victory.

As said before, I enjoyed this game a lot. Solid line-up of players of both scum and town and fantastic flavor that is funny to read and unique. Thanks to everyone for a great game and thanks to totallynotmafia for great modding.

To be honest, Night 4, I was considering not killing anyone so I wouldn't risk being caught. But with school taking up a lot of my time plus being in an overload of Mafia games, if it came to either prevailing in this game or doing well in school, I had to choose and I choose what I felt was the more important option in this game (Doing well in school). To vezokpiraka and Sotty7, I hope you understand that I had no intentions of risking being lynched for the lose but rather due to real-life issues.

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

I personally think that Day 2 was halirious. Tazaro played very scumminly during that day and as a result, us scums managed to get an easy mislynch. At that point, I was confident that the scum faction would win. Turns out that wasn't the case, but still, it was a good try.